Military Review

Combat aircraft. King of heights

133
Let's come to an agreement right away: without these "Oh, if only ..." It doesn't work like that. It happens completely differently, so now we are now completely without unnecessary speculation, but very biasedly, we will analyze 152. Simply because Kurt Tank was not a fool and his brainchild is worth it in every way.


Everyone, on this with the background finished and went to history.


Kurt Tank.


I will not develop the thoughts of some on the topic of how the Tank was a genius or not, I can only say that he knew how to build airplanes, and he knew how to do it perfectly.

And the best proof could be in 1941 the same Fw.190A, which was just being tested. And just the military tests of the new fighter showed that the BMW 801 engine is frankly weak at altitudes. Therefore, engineers at the Focke-Wulf Design Bureau were urgently assigned to design another fighter for a different engine. High-rise.

In fact, Tank reacted very quickly to the imperfection of its brainchild, but work on a new aircraft, for which there was no engine yet, is not easy. So when, in May 1942, the ministry aviation (RLM) issued the Focke-Wulf and Messerschmitt terms of reference for a high-altitude fighter, which, moreover, could still be used as a reconnaissance aircraft, then, as they say, the mosquito has not yet flown there.

Nevertheless, after “only” a year, Focke-Wulf submitted its project for consideration to the RLM Technical Committee. The aircraft was vaguely similar to the FW.190D, which at that time was at war with might and main on all fronts, but structurally differed even more, therefore it was from this aircraft that all Focke-Wulf products were named after the chief designer, that is, "Ta".

In principle, this is true, because by that time Heinrich Focke had already left the company and was engaged in helicopters, and Georg Wulff worked in rocketry.

In the course of work on the plane, it turned out that the ministry wanted to see a certain plane that could serve as a high-altitude fighter, a reconnaissance plane and (!) A fighter-bomber. Tank used all his authority to dissuade ministers from the idea of ​​a fighter-bomber. Happened.


In general, RLM saw the new aircraft as unified as possible with the FW.190, but with an engine from Junkers Jumo.213, and as an alternative, an engine from Daimler-Benz DB.603. The aircraft was supposed to use the MK.103 or MK.108 motor-guns.

Constructors Tank made two projects. For all possible engine variants. The project with the Jumo.213C engine was designated Ta.152A, with Jumo.213E - Ta 152B. And the DB.603G engine could be installed instead of either of these two engines.


In general, the shape of the Ta.152 resembled the Fw.190D-9. But it was so well walked with a saw and an autogenous gun, and here's why. All the equipment we wanted to fit just didn't fit. The engine was liquid-cooled, much longer than the "star" from BMW.

Therefore, for the first time, the Fokker's fuselage was cut in the nose and a 772 mm long insert was cut. So much because it was necessary to cram a long engine, and in addition, instead of 13,2 mm MG.131 machine guns, they decided to install MG.151 / 20 cannons.

And then the tail was cut off. A little smaller was inserted there, only 500 mm. And they placed oxygen cylinders for the pilot and compressed air cylinders for reloading the motor-gun.

After such additions, it was necessary to replace duralumin parts with steel ones in some places. For the grown mass, additional strength was needed.

And I had to move the front spar forward by 420 mm, since it was necessary to compensate for the backward shift of the center of gravity. The main gas tank, rear wing spar and fuselage frames were also displaced. The wing, stabilizer and rudder were supplied from Fw.190A-8, although the keel area was slightly increased.

Flight performance was quite high. Especially with the Jumo 213E engine, which had a two-stage three-speed supercharger. With this engine, the aircraft reached a maximum speed of over 700 km / h and a ceiling of over 10 m. With other engines, the performance was more modest.

It was possible for a short time (15 minutes) at high altitudes to increase the engine power by about 20% more by injecting nitrous oxide into the engine cylinders by the GM-1 system. The tank with 115 liters of nitrous oxide was located behind the pilot's seat. Not the best neighborhood, if in my opinion.

The total capacity of the gas tanks was 595 liters, and this amount could be increased by 300 liters due to the external dischargeable hanging tank under the fuselage.

Armament. Here the designers went into a rage and designed a monster. Judge for yourself:

Motor-gun MK.108 with a caliber of 30 mm with an ammunition load of 90 rounds or an MK.103 with an ammunition load of 80 rounds.
Two 20-mm MG.151 / 20 cannons in the lower part of the fuselage with 150 rounds of ammunition.
Two 20-mm MG.151 cannons at the root of the wing with 175 rounds of ammunition.

But that's not all!

Additionally, in the outer wing sections, two 30-mm MK.108 cannons with 55 rounds each, or two MG.151 / 20 with 140 rounds per barrel, or two 30-mm MK.103 under the outer wing sections with 40 rounds of ammunition were installed.

Suspended armament practically did not differ from the suspension of various missile and bomb weapons on the serial Fw.190A.


But even without the outboard, seven cannons is more than solid. A nightmarish volley that could smash everything in its path.

The prototype made its first flight on July 7, 1943.

During the tests of the prototypes Ta.152A, to the surprise of RLM officials, no design flaws were identified. The only thing that was rejected from the original project was the frankly unsuccessful flame extinguishers.

In April 1944, a comparative test of the Ta.152A and FW.190D-9 was carried out, the new aircraft at altitudes of more than 5 meters surpassed the 000th by a head. But for some reason, RLM made a more than strange decision not to launch this aircraft into series, which, in theory, could significantly complicate the life of Allied bombers in the skies over Germany.

Meanwhile, the same year 1944 showed that the American P-47D Thunderbolt and P-51D Mustang that appeared in the sky, and the British Spitfire Mk.XIV and Tempest Mk.V Focke-Wulfs -190 cannot offer adequate resistance.

The maximum speeds of the Allied fighters came very close to 700 km / h, while in the FW.190, on the contrary, the increase in armor resulted in a natural decrease in speed. And here one could count on Ta.152. The revision of the project was completed in early January 1945.

The aircraft version was named Ta.152S. The possibility of placing outboard weapons was removed, additional fuel tanks of 470 liters were installed in the wing, and the armor protection of the pilot's cabin was strengthened. The "heart" of the aircraft was the DB.603L engine with a turbocharger and MW-50 system.


During the tests, the Ta.152S showed high maximum speeds: in combat mode (2500 rpm) - 547 km / h at sea level and 647 km / h at maximum altitude, in emergency mode (2700 rpm) - 617 km / h at sea level and 687 km / h at maximum altitude.

The Ta.152S was conceived as a medium-altitude fighter-bomber, and unlike the Ta.152N, which was developed as a high-altitude fighter, it was not equipped with a pressurized cabin.

But the set of additional equipment (Rustsalz) was impressive, which included such useful things as the FuG.125 blind landing radio system, the LGW K-23 autopilot and the canopy heating system.

There were many modifications of the Ta.152, but they differed from each other mainly in the set of weapons. The Mk.108 motor cannons were replaced by the Mk.103, the root MG.151 / 20 could be replaced by the Mk.103, but in any case, the armament consisted of five guns.

In general, it turned out to be a very strong machine that could calmly disassemble a heavy bomber, and with an escort fighter in a fight it is not clear who would be doomed to success.

The tank literally lane with the tank on the Ministry of Aviation in order to push at least Ta.152S into a large series. I used all my considerable authority, but ... alas. Today we can say that the small commonality in the design with the FW.190 was to blame. If the planes were more similar, the production launch would not have caused such problems.


And with the high-altitude Ta.152N everything was even more sad. While the 190s were rumbling and overheating trying to climb to the heights where the Allied bombers were forming, the Ta.152H actually flew only in March 1945.

From the first series of 20 vehicles, which, in theory, were supposed to be pre-production test vehicles, they quickly set up a special command "152", headed by tester Bruno Stolle, and sent them to fight.

But with all their luxurious equipment and excellent flight characteristics, the aircraft could not have a real impact on the situation in the sky.

In fact, its high-altitude colleague Ta.152N differed from the Ta.152C in a few things, some, however, are worthy of mention and detailed disassembly.

There were not many high-rise Ta.152 produced, just over 150 units. Most of the cars were produced in a very interesting configuration, and with a 50-liter tank of water-methanol mixture for the MW-70 for afterburner at low altitudes in the wing, and a bottle of nitrous oxide for the GM-1 system for boosting the engine at altitude.

The Ta.152H pressurized cabin was an ordinary cabin with a volume of about a cubic meter, sealed with a special paste DKH 8800.

The edges of the cab were sealed with a special foam rubber hose. The hose was filled with air from a special balloon with a capacity of about a liter and with a working pressure of 2,5 atmospheres.

The cockpit canopy was made of two layers of glass in order to provide both strength and tightness. The outer layer was 8 mm thick and the inner layer 3 mm thick. In the space between these glasses, to prevent the glasses from fogging up and remove water from the air, 8 silicate cartridges were placed.

If the pilot had to leave the cockpit in emergency mode, it was quite difficult. In order to drop the flashlight, it was necessary to first release air from the hose. Then the lantern lock was opened, and the lantern was dropped by the third step by detonating the squib.

In the same way, where with paste, where with a hose, all hatches in the cab were sealed. Rubber sealed gaskets were installed on the hatches of radio stations and guns.

Naturally, the question arose that air would have to be supplied to the cabin at a height. This could be done either with oxygen cylinders or using a compressor. At Focke-Fulff they chose a compressor.

The compressor functioned as follows: It took air from the space in front of the cooler and fed it through a filter, relief valve and slide valve into the cab. The safety valve served to keep the air in the cabin in case of a compressor failure.


The compressor began to supply air to the cabin when it reached an altitude of 8000 meters. Starting from this height, the pressure in the cabin was maintained at 0,36 atm using the air pressure regulator. When the pressure in the cockpit dropped to 0,23 atmospheres, the control valve worked, which protected the pilot and the pressurized cabin from pressure drops.

At altitudes less than 8000 meters, air was supplied to the cabin directly through a safety valve, without the help of a compressor. The control system made it possible to regulate not only the air pressure in the cabin, but also the amount of fresh air supplied. It was also possible to regulate the air temperature in the pressurized cabin. The heating system took heat from the engine cooling system, and it was a little easier to do this with a Junkers water-cooled engine than with an air-cooled BMW engine.

By the way, if the air temperature in the cabin began to rise (especially when flying at high altitudes), then the cooled air was taken from the compressor feeding the engine.

A separate modification was the Ta.152N-10, a high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft made on the basis of the N-1. From May 1945, according to the plan, the Luftwaffe was supposed to receive 20 vehicles per month. Ta.152N-10 carried one camera Rb-20/30, 50/30 or 75/30 behind the cockpit. The flight range at an altitude of 10 m and a speed of 000 km / h reached 600 km. The maximum speed was 1200 km / h.

Collected Ta.152N-1 in Cottbus. And they managed to collect about 150 units. Then the Red Army came and production as expected stopped.

In general, despite the seemingly decent figure, there was not a single group armed with the Ta.152N-1. Individual squadrons were armed, or even mixed with the FW.190D. But the main losses Ta.152 suffered not in the air, but on the ground, being destroyed as a result of the actions of attack aircraft and bombers.


However, the battles in which the Ta.152 took part showed that this is a very serious machine.

The maximum speed of 705 km / h at altitude and the rate of climb of 1050 m / min made it possible to absolutely fight on equal terms with the Allied fighters.

The same "Spitfire" of the 16th series accelerated to 688 km / h and had a climb rate of 1380 m / min.
American "Thunderbolt" series "D" had indicators of 690 km / h and 847 m / min.
"Mustang" Р51D - 703 km / h and 1050 m / min, respectively.

At the same time, the Ta.152 was not the heaviest in terms of maximum take-off weight. At the level of "Mustang" and "Spitfire" and much lighter than "Thunderbolt".


Everyone had a practical ceiling beyond 12 meters, so the only question is who will climb to such a height first.

When it comes to weaponry, the flying nightmare from Kurt Tank and company was unmatched. Yes, of course, you can be very critical of the 30mm Mk.108 cannon in terms of low muzzle velocity and, accordingly, poor ballistics, but replacing it with the Mk.103 had a better effect on armament. And four MG.151 / 20 are four very good (perhaps even the best) guns.

Six or eight Browning 12,7 mm machine guns are also quite themselves in terms of a second salvo, but a shell is a shell. High-explosive fragmentation in particular. And the Spitfire's two wing-mounted 20mm cannons and two 12,7mm machine guns don't look serious at all.

Even when the Focke-Wulf wing guns were removed, and only synchronous ones remained, 1 x 30-mm and 2 x 20-mm remained very formidable weapons, since wing-mounted machine guns (and cannons too) gave much more dispersion than the weapons installed in the nose of the aircraft.

In addition, a few words should be said about the rest of the aircraft equipment. For the sake of completeness, let's say so.


The heart of the communication system was the FuG.16ZY radio station. A four-channel transceiver station (two for communication with the ground, two for communication with the flight / squadron aircraft), with a remote control that the pilot could place where it was convenient for him.

FuG 25a friend or foe identification system.
The FuG 125 radio compass is also equipped with a remote control.
Autopilot LGW K 23.
Combined artificial horizon.


LTH Ta.152b-5 / R11
Wingspan, m: 11,00
Length, m: 10,70
Height, m: 3,35
Wing area, м2: 18,90

Weight, kg
- empty aircraft: 4 016
- normal takeoff: 4 880
- maximum take-off: 5 400

Engine: 1 х Junkers "Jumo" -213Е-1 х 1 750 hp
Maximum speed km / h:
- near the ground: 547
- at height: 685
- using GM-1: 709
Cruising speed, km / h: 505

Practical range, km:
- with nominal fuel: 1
- with additional tank: 1 900

Maximum rate of climb, m / min: 1 050
Practical ceiling, m: 13 500
Crew, prs: 1
Armament:
- three 30-mm MK-103 cannons with 80 rounds per barrel and an ETS-503 holder under the fuselage (option).

In general, the Tank got an aircraft with excellent flight data. We can say that the perfect piston fighter. Ta.152 was really good at high altitudes.

In general, the Ta.152 could really become a kind of response to the American Mustang and go down in history as the best fighter in the Luftwaffe. And maybe as the best high-altitude fighter in the world.

But the minimum batch that the plant in Kotlas could produce at all could not have at least some effect on the situation in the skies of Germany. However, the few battles Ta.152 with "Mustangs", "Tempests" and "Spitfires" showed how serious this opponent is.

Luftwaffe pilots noted the unusually easy control of this not at all light machine. For takeoff, Ta.152 required only about 300 meters of the runway, for landing it was much more.


In battle, Ta.152 was good at both high and medium altitudes. On February 21, 1945, the first victory in the air was won on Ta.152. Test pilot Joseph Kyle from 10 / JG301 shot down a B-17 over Berlin. Kyle won his next victory on March 1, when he shot down an American P-51 Mustang. In total, test pilot Kyle won 10 of his 5 victories on the Ta.152.

The last battle of the Ta.152 squadron JG.301 was held on April 24, 1945. 6 German fighters met in battle with six Yak-9. Two Soviet fighters were shot down and two were shot down. But the Germans paid for this with the loss of two Ta.152.

After the war, the commander of the group, von Reschke, wrote in his memoirs that Soviet fighters turned out to be more serious opponents than the Mustangs precisely because of their maneuverability.

Speaking about the Ta.152, I would call this particular plane the swan song of piston fighters. Arguments can be made for and against, but the brainchild of Kurt Tank became the most powerful and high-altitude fighter of the outgoing generation. It really was a "king of heights" who could fight quite normally at low altitudes.


And we can only be glad that these aircraft were produced so few and so late.
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  1. Thrifty
    Thrifty 14 January 2021 04: 59
    +14
    Yes, the Fockewulfs in any form were far from gifts for our combat pilots in the war! The enemy can and should be hated, but his brainchild deserves at least close attention and study in the manner of using technical innovations at home!
    1. fighter angel
      fighter angel 14 January 2021 14: 08
      +8
      As for "gifts, not gifts".
      Our fighter pilots, in their memoirs and memoirs, unanimously say that it was much easier to conduct an air battle with the "fore" than with the "Messer".
      1. Malyuta
        Malyuta 14 January 2021 20: 06
        +14
        Quote: fighter angel
        Our fighter pilots, in their memoirs and memoirs, unanimously say that it was much easier to conduct an air battle with the "fore" than with the "Messer".

        I am very sorry, but I must immediately note that just not in the frontal, armament 190 could break anyone oncoming, but in a maneuvering battle, then yes.
        1. Cer59
          Cer59 15 January 2021 20: 20
          +2
          not a single FV-190 made a frontal attack. at least not in any of my memoirs have I found this. but the Germans went to Messer.
          and the reason is very simple. in the dog dump the foresail was transformed into a whipping boy. the loss of speed of the 190th was a verdict, unlike the messer. 190s tactics strike and escape. you may not. but I will answer with the memories of one of our aces. escorting the IL-2, they noticed aerocobras at low altitude in a battle with Messerschmites. it is not known how the messers lowered the aircobor from a height, but the fact that they were not controlled by novices became clear after we came to the rescue, the aircobras clung to the ILs and did not take part in the further fight.
          The 190 was good with headroom.
      2. Viktor Sergeev
        Viktor Sergeev 15 January 2021 22: 14
        +1
        It all depends on the conditions of the battle. If you are a fighter accompanying IL2 and your task is to meet the enemy head on, then the messer is preferable.
      3. kytx
        kytx 16 January 2021 22: 47
        +2
        so Messer109 was built by a company that was originally engaged in light aerobatic aircraft
    2. Malyuta
      Malyuta 14 January 2021 20: 09
      +12
      Quote: Thrifty
      The enemy can and should be hated, but his brainchild deserves at least close attention and study in the manner of using technical innovations at home!

      You can argue for as long as you like, but the fact that the start of Soviet jet aviation gave just a symbiosis of studying captured German vehicles and Soviet design ideas.
      1. kytx
        kytx 16 January 2021 22: 49
        +2
        Soviet jet aircraft launched the Rolls-Royce
        Yes Yes
      2. Thrombus
        Thrombus 22 January 2021 12: 09
        -1
        After the war, Beria, all German scientists in rocket ... and aircraft construction to whom they could get to, drove into a sharashka in Abkhazia, created all the conditions for work, paid well and fed them, promised to send them home if they give a result, and put our scientists to them who adopted them experience and then developed, from there and went jet aircraft and rocketry in the USSR.
        1. alekszeit
          alekszeit 27 March 2021 21: 33
          -1
          for the first time I hear that Lake Seliger is located in Abkhazia (
  2. Cowbra
    Cowbra 14 January 2021 05: 04
    +1
    Well, allied bombing is, of course, unpleasant. But they did not stop production either in the Reich or in Japan, and here and there they resolved the ground forces - the capture of Berlin and the defeat of the Kwantung Army put an end to it. And against the ground forces and the low-altitude but very maneuverable fighters covering them - a bird with such dimensions does not dance, and such weapons are not very necessary. That is why they were not eager to spank them. 190 - worked very well as Yabo, and was more needed
  3. pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 14 January 2021 05: 52
    +3
    I looked at the rates of climb of our Yak-3, Yak-9, La-7 and La-9. The German loses heavily on the vertical, and only with the Yak-9 on equal terms. Apparently, the Germans were greatly impressed by the American and British "irons". Mr. Schmidt was also much inferior to Lavochkin and the Yak-3.
    1. yehat2
      yehat2 14 January 2021 11: 49
      +16
      climb rate at what altitudes? Besides, what's the point of comparing the ultralight yak-3 with the ta-152?
      It is also worth removing la-9 from the list, which appeared much later. and "suddenly" only La-7 remains, which also appeared a year later, which could only fight at altitudes up to about 4.5 km, higher than Ta-152 and H and C was already better. Yak-9 may have been on equal terms in climb rate and again, only up to heights of 3.5-4 km, but could not be compared in terms of armament and protection, and also lagged behind in the decline.
      1. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 14 January 2021 12: 07
        +1
        Quote: yehat2
        climb rate at what altitudes? Besides, what's the point of comparing the ultralight yak-3 with the ta-152?
        It is also worth removing la-9 from the list, which appeared much later. and "suddenly" only La-7 remains, which also appeared a year later, which could only fight at altitudes up to about 4.5 km, higher than Ta-152 and H and C was already better. Yak-9 may have been on equal terms in climb rate and again, only up to heights of 3.5-4 km, but could not be compared in terms of armament and protection, and also lagged behind in the decline.

        It is no coincidence that I mentioned La-9 in comparison with Western aircraft, because it is the same La-7, only made of metal, that is, as Western rivals. It is he who should be compared with the fighters of the United States and England. In Germany, of course, the production of mass fighters, on the contrary, only degraded, but this sample, as a "prototype", was probably built on a "fat" basis. Therefore, La-9 and La-11 are direct competitors for comparison, and I mentioned wooden Yaks for completeness.
        I said that the Germans were impressed by the Western irons, but ours were just as impressed as the Germans, only the Messers, with their vertical "hit-and-run" maneuver, and throughout the war tried to win the "vertical". The one who was higher at the beginning of the attack had the advantage - to impose a battle or evade it. And the advantage in the rate of climb made it possible, all other things being equal, to occupy a higher echelon ahead of the opponent, or to catch up with him going up after the attack. One and a half times is a good indicator, it's like a VAZ 120 and a Toyota 180 (for tankers and sailors - I mean to myself).
        1. yehat2
          yehat2 14 January 2021 12: 53
          +7
          every plane has accents. For example, the mustang, with its laminar wing, was a very good escort fighter, but not a very good dominance fighter. Not so much that even a g50 with a dviglom from Messer (Makki 7) beat it confidently at altitudes up to 4 km. In the same way, the ta-152 was not created for combat on verticals, but for high performance at high altitudes - in fact, altitude, speed and maneuverability. If we compare la-7 or la-9, then with bf-109k. Here he was charged with a vertical fight. The same machine had no vertical tasks. And one cannot ignore specialization. And the local championship can be assigned to i-153 bis for the same rate of climb, and yak-1 for a combat turn or a radius of horizontal maneuver or goodbye to piloting errors, and p40 or mackey7 for dive speed. A very heavy P47 will win in its nominations, for example, in terms of power or survivability.
          1. pmkemcity
            pmkemcity 14 January 2021 13: 03
            +4
            American aircraft were undoubtedly the most metal-intensive, and therefore the most tenacious and the most "long-range". One Thunderbolt could build three Lavochkin or four Yaks. The rich could afford it. The British, who were not at all comic air battles with the Germans in the first half of the war, praise their Spitfire and not Tempest or Typhoon, and abandoned the Mustang altogether.
            1. yehat2
              yehat2 14 January 2021 13: 08
              +13
              strictly speaking, the Mustang was a lame fighter until it was equipped with an upgraded English Merlin engine. So he's half English.
              It was this engine that essentially gave the allied aviation a chance to fight on equal terms with the Germans.
              1. pmkemcity
                pmkemcity 14 January 2021 13: 19
                +3
                The Germans, from an organizational point of view, after the Kuban looked squeezed out like a lemon, and could no longer conduct massive air battles. The Americans, on the contrary, either using the experience of the "Japanese Front" or simply "the time has come", constantly increased the number of aircraft in sorties, creating an overwhelming air superiority. Ours also tried to constantly be present in the frontline zone in large numbers, trying first of all to create psychological comfort for the ground forces, always painfully recalling the forty-first year.
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 14 January 2021 13: 24
                  +5
                  The Germans, from an organizational point of view, after the Kuban looked squeezed out like a lemon, and could no longer conduct massive air battles.

                  And what did they do then for the whole 44 year over Reich?
                  And during the Yassy operation? And in Italy?
                  1. pmkemcity
                    pmkemcity 14 January 2021 13: 41
                    +2
                    Quote: Engineer
                    And what did they do then for the whole 44 year over Reich?
                    And during the Yassy operation? And in Italy?

                    What is the result? Why the Red Banner over the Reichstag then? So, the song "about heroes" silently perishing at their posts - the book "Results of the Second World War" by Tippelskirch, Guderian, etc., recently leafed through an article by a general firefighter.
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 14 January 2021 13: 49
                      +4
                      The question was not about a global confrontation at the strategic level
                      You stated
                      could not conduct massive air combat battles.

                      Suddenly, after the Kuban.
                      The fact is that massive air battles led for a long time - until January 1, 45
                      1. pmkemcity
                        pmkemcity 15 January 2021 05: 27
                        +2
                        In the Kuban, only ours made 35000 sorties in a month and a half. The Germans, if less, then not radically. They simply ground the human potential of the Luftwaffe and seized the initiative in the air, although they achieved complete dominance over the battlefield only over Kursk.
                  2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 14 January 2021 14: 23
                    +2
                    Quote: Engineer
                    And what did they do then for the whole 44 year over Reich?
                    And during the Yassy operation? And in Italy?

                    ... and at Bodenplatte.
                  3. Radiator
                    Radiator 15 January 2021 08: 34
                    +2
                    And what were they doing there over the Reich? The main battles were not fought in the Reich, and certainly not in Italy.
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 15 January 2021 12: 56
                      +2
                      In 44, the main battles in the air took place over the Reich.
                      Take the trouble to read at least something on the topic
                      1. pmkemcity
                        pmkemcity 15 January 2021 13: 12
                        +2
                        Quote: Engineer
                        In 44, the main battles in the air took place over the Reich.
                        Take the trouble to read at least something on the topic

                        "Main" for whom? The Germans simply shoved off the eastern front, and then the western one, concentrating the remnants of their aviation on the defense of Berlin. But when the real war came to the capital of the Reich, they also could not oppose anything to the Soviet Air Force.
                        German aviation in the Berlin area had about 2 thousand aircraft, including 70% of fighters. It consisted of up to 120 Me-262 jet fighters and projectile aircraft. The developed network of airfields ensured the implementation of broad maneuvers by aviation and its concentration on the most important areas.
                        During the period of the operation, Soviet aviation made about 92 thousand sorties, more than half of them were produced at night and in difficult meteorological conditions.
                        In the course of the operation, the fighters firmly held their supremacy in the air, conducted 1317 air battles and shot down 1132 enemy aircraft in them and destroyed 100 at airfields. The victory of our aviation in the Berlin operation was not easy. In aerial battles and from enemy anti-aircraft artillery fire, it lost 527 aircraft.
                      2. Engineer
                        Engineer 15 January 2021 13: 42
                        -1
                        "Main" for whom?

                        For Germans
                        What other leftovers?
                        At 44, fighter aircraft backlashes are at their peak in terms of numbers. And the main front for her is in the West
                        Why bother with the Berlin operation if the backlashes have already been broken.
                        Moreover, by the Soviet "labor" of the 68th edition
                      3. pmkemcity
                        pmkemcity 15 January 2021 13: 51
                        +3
                        Quote: Engineer
                        the main front for her is in the West

                        Have you reconsidered Discovery?
                        Why bother with the Berlin operation if the backlashes have already been broken.

                        And who, in your opinion, broke the "elevators", hooligans?
                        Soviet "work" 68 year of publication

                        All work is honorable. And I advise you to work hard - the nut of knowledge is hard (Newsreel "I want to know everything", by the way, the same Soviet, since 1957).
                      4. Engineer
                        Engineer 15 January 2021 14: 00
                        -2
                        In 2021, not to master the reports of the service of the Quartermaster General of the Luftwaffe do you know bad manners
                        The nut of knowledge is really very hard. Spelling of adverbs, for example, is not given to everyone
                        by the way the same
                      5. pmkemcity
                        pmkemcity 16 January 2021 12: 31
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Spelling of adverbs, for example, is not given to everyone

                        But I have five in singing! Unfortunately, neither Russian nor English was given to me, but there are two higher technical and gee-gee-monetary. Will you come to me as a proofreader?
                      6. Engineer
                        Engineer 16 January 2021 12: 43
                        +1
                        If spelling was your only fail, I wouldn't say a word.
                        I’m not interested in Internet pussies with a bunch of higher education. I’m finishing my second master's degree this year. It doesn't show anything.
                        Those who have not mastered even the basic sources on the topic, but climbing into each barrel are all the more not interesting
                        To each his own
                      7. pmkemcity
                        pmkemcity 16 January 2021 12: 54
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        climbing into each barrel is all the more not interesting

                        Who needs a barrel without a plug?
                        I am finishing my second master's degree this year.

                        Victim of the exam?
                      8. Engineer
                        Engineer 16 January 2021 12: 57
                        +1
                        It is doubly funny to read from a non-victim of the exam laughing
                        Unfortunately, neither Russian nor English was given to me

                        Even a non-commissioned officer couldn't have carved herself better
                      9. pmkemcity
                        pmkemcity 16 January 2021 13: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Engineer
                        Even a non-commissioned officer couldn't have carved herself better

                        It's very strange to hear this from you ... Have you really read it? And it's too late to poke my nose into the notebook:
      2. Radiator
        Radiator 15 January 2021 20: 17
        +1
        The main battles in the air in relation to purely air battles were taking place. The main large-scale battles, due to which Nazi Germany fell, took place not on its territory, and certainly not with the participation of Western liars.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 14 January 2021 13: 26
    +4
    the Germans in 41 were at the peak of their mobilization. So then their army was constantly weakening, even in spite of the strengthening of the work of industry for the war. Starting from the winter of 41-42, the German army began to consistently experience a shortage of soldiers, trained to the standards of the Wehrmacht, and in every possible way made up for this by hiring alternative cadres of collaborationists.
    It got to the point that by 44, about a quarter of the Wehrmacht were not Germans, and those who were, half were not of military age. In addition, the Luftwaffe did not strengthen the training of pilots in time, which led to the fact that by 43 the German was "not the same" and only occasionally recalled how the German army could smash in 40-41. For example, the battles near Kharkov, near Balaton, the counteroffensive in the Ardennes, the defense in Italy and a number of other local operations.
    1. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity 14 January 2021 13: 36
      +4
      Quote: yehat2
      For example, the battles near Kharkov, near Balaton, the counteroffensive in the Ardennes, the defense in Italy and a number of other local operations.

      These exceptions only confirm the rule. And the fact that "the German is no longer the same" was noted by the Germans themselves even before the start of the war with Russia - "Germany never had such infantry as in 1914" (the words of a German general, now I don't remember who).
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 15 January 2021 10: 23
    -8
    Quote: pmkemcity
    and could no longer conduct massive air combat battles.

    In fact, massive air battles for the Germans began in 44. But not on the Eastern Front, of course.
    Quote: pmkemcity
    donkey Kuban looked wrung out like a lemon

    Hartmann has just begun.
    Quote: pmkemcity
    Why the Red Banner over the Reichstag then?

    Chance
    1. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity 15 January 2021 13: 15
      +4
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      Quote: pmkemcity
      Why the Red Banner over the Reichstag then?

      Chance

      That was lucky! But why the Germans are not so lucky!
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 15 January 2021 14: 27
        -3
        Quote: pmkemcity
        But why the Germans are not so lucky!

        Yes, no luck. There, everything went one to one, from Davis's mistake in the allocation of landing zones (more precisely, Roosevelt brought his understanding of the areas of responsibility to the military too late), to the last heroism of the notorious Wenck, who managed to neatly blow up all the bridges across the Elbe that the Americans approached.
        1. Radiator
          Radiator 15 January 2021 20: 24
          +2
          "Bad luck", yeah. And the frost prevented, it was warm on the Soviet side at that moment, but the Germans were cold.
          How long can we weave this ...
  • Radiator
    Radiator 15 January 2021 08: 36
    +3
    The Mustang has always sucked, with any engine.
    Its only plus is that it could fly somewhere. And so - typical for that time American non-maneuverable, wretchedly armed log, not capable of aerial combat. With the Germans or the Soviet Air Force.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 15 January 2021 14: 30
      -8
      )))
      Most Germans have little chance of fighting against the later Mustangs, in the battle the Mustang was designed for.

      The Soviet Air Force had no chance at all against the US Army Air Force or the US Navy (even separately). Exactly zero. They barely fought with consumptive backlashes.
      1. Radiator
        Radiator 15 January 2021 20: 18
        +4
        Kozhedub did not know this, so he shot down 2 mustangs in one run.
        Otherwise, I will leave this fabulous nonsense without comment. It looks like it's religious.
        1. Evgeny Goncharov (smoogg)
          Evgeny Goncharov (smoogg) 15 January 2021 21: 46
          -5
          > Kozhedub
          > 2 mustangs

          More about nonsense and especially religious nonsense I would like to see from you.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 16 January 2021 00: 16
            +1
            Quote: Evgeny Goncharov (smoogg)
            More about nonsense and especially religious

            Here your interlocutor is not original. He recalls the wonderful hunting story thrown in by N.G.
            Bodrikhin, referring to an allegedly private conversation with the then deceased Kozhedub. This story quickly began not to stick to the details, but Bodrikhin himself finally buried it, having obtained from somewhere the frames of the FKP with mustangs (allegedly found in the sideboard of the widow Kozhedub) and trying to trump them.

            German FKP.
          2. Radiator
            Radiator 16 January 2021 00: 58
            +1
            There can be no more delirium.

            Empty fairy-tale spells without anything about the fact that the best fighters on the planet should be afraid of an unmaneuverable log without normal weapons to gain air superiority from Messerschmit, Lavochkin and Yakovlev ... are we discussing a new Hollywood film or are we howling prayer wishes in a religious temple?

            I repeat, Kozhedub did not work in Hollywood, so two mustangs on the La-7 failed in one run at 45.
          3. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 16 January 2021 01: 22
            +1
            Quote: Radiator
            therefore, two mustangs on the La-7 failed in one run at 45.

            If Kozhedub were alive, he could find the story where he is presented as a brainless hysterical woman without a concept of discipline, offensive. But since Kozhedub was not alive, Mr. Bodrikhin got the opportunity to whistle for his pleasure.
            Quote: Radiator
            the best fighters on the planet to gain air superiority from Messerschmit, Lavochkin and Yakovlev should be afraid of a non-maneuverable log without normal weapons

            Fighters from Messerschmitt should, and were afraid, and died, but at the expense of the products of Lavochkin and Yakovlev, they somehow did not have the opportunity to fear the Mustangs, Soviet God had mercy on them.
          4. Radiator
            Radiator 16 January 2021 03: 10
            0
            Well, how merciful. Shot down at 45 and mustangs and P-38s
          5. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 16 January 2021 12: 03
            -1
            Of course they did. Attacks both on the allies, and, above all, on their own aircraft, were on all sides.

            But not all parties take such pride.
          6. Radiator
            Radiator 17 January 2021 01: 14
            0
            Americans have nothing to be proud of. For they shot down mustangs and lightnings after an attack on allied Soviet targets, air or ground. And why shouldn't the Soviet side be proud?
    2. Evgeny Goncharov (smoogg)
      Evgeny Goncharov (smoogg) 16 January 2021 10: 18
      -2
      > the best air superiority fighters on the planet from Lavochkin and Yakovlev
      > are we discussing a new Hollywood film or howling prayer wishes in a religious temple?

      more than sure that the second.
    3. Radiator
      Radiator 17 January 2021 01: 16
      +1
      Well no. It was precisely the Soviet and German machines that were better not in beliefs, this is maneuverability and weapons, than American logs, armed only with machine guns, did not even smell.
      Therefore, "samdurak" will not work here.
  • mikael
    mikael 8 February 2021 18: 34
    -1
    you are a stupid person from birth and this is an axiom and diagnosis in one glass for you
  • kig
    kig April 2 2021 02: 58
    0
    Quote: Radiator
    Mustang has always sucked

    In fact, the Mustangs shot down almost half of the Germans lost in the west. And about the same number were broken on the ground. In total, I don't remember exactly, but more than 9000
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 15 January 2021 09: 59
    -2
    Quote: yehat2
    strictly speaking the mustang was a suck fighter

    Nishev. He was fast, but not tall and relatively inert. The aerodynamics are excellent, but the thrust-to-weight ratio is low.
    1. Radiator
      Radiator 15 January 2021 20: 20
      +1
      "Niche" - it means "not capable of maneuverable air combat and disgusting, just shameful for the end of the war armed"?
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 16 January 2021 00: 48
        +2
        1. Speech about the mustangs of the first series, if you noticed.
        2. About the shamefully armed - you are, apparently, about the La-7 and Yak-3, whose salvo weight is one third less than that of the Mustang. Although in comparison with the British and especially sick Germans on this subject (although the Germans can be understood, anyone will get sick from 8VA) armed really mediocre.
        3. Maneuverable air combat, especially at the end of the war - entertainment for future dead. It is impossible to conduct a maneuverable battle at the speeds and heights for which the late Mustang was intended.
        4. The early Mustang, with the alison in question, according to British tests, was sharply inferior to sleeping in combat qualities - vertical and horizontal maneuverability, weapons - but also sharply superior in range and slightly superior in speed at low and medium altitudes. Therefore, the British, who by the time the mustangs arrived, had already ended their extermination crisis, used it more for reconnaissance. But since the British had Mosquito in the same role, they did not need the Mustang too much.
        Quote: Radiator
        The main large-scale battles, due to which Nazi Germany fell, did not take place on its territory

        Battle of Britain, Battle of the Atlantic, yes, there is a lot to remember.
        Quote: Radiator
        "Bad luck", yeah. And the frost prevented

        Frost? No, in March April 45, which was discussed, there was no particular frost.
        Quote: Radiator
        It looks like he's religious

        Religious? Oh well.

        A lot of bad things can be said about the Soviet aviation of the Second World War, but one thing it always had - it was many times superior to the German in number, from the first to the last day. Collision with aircraft, numerically superior Soviet - with an even higher level of training of pilots (not to mention the late Germans) than even the early Germans, with a technical level unthinkable for the USSR - no, life did not prepare Soviet people for this.
        1. Radiator
          Radiator 17 January 2021 01: 19
          -1
          No, shamefully armed - this is armed at the end of the war only with machine guns. And only a swindler can measure the weight of a salvo, since without taking into account the effective caliber, the weight of a salvo can be 100% bullshit.
          All the more fraud - not to distinguish the location of the striking weapon, close to the axis of the aircraft or in the wing.
          If you do not understand the difference, then why are you discussing a question that you do not understand, if you understand why you are so rude to hang noodles on your ears?
        2. Radiator
          Radiator 17 January 2021 01: 31
          -1
          Maneuverable combat is not entertainment, but the main essence of efficiency for gaining air supremacy at that time and in the next 70 years, when it did not cease to be important, but became just not the only main thing.
          And the conquest of air superiority is a victory in the war, because it is further the solution on the ground of combat missions while providing the main mass striking "horses" on the ground from the air (which continue to work in bulk while ensuring air superiority).
          Not bombing city blocks, but winning the main battles of a million on the ground. What the Anglo-Americans were not capable of, who fought only with air defense fighters. Neither were they capable of winning air superiority, nor were they able to win the war in Berlin.

          So the mustang was not capable of winning air superiority, like a eunuch without eggs to conception.
          And actually he was not capable of winning an air battle.
          The Mustang was created only in order to fly somewhere near the bombers and put a barrage of fire. This is what such weapons are for.

          Moreover, because the Americans suffered much greater losses in the air in Korea and Vietnam, since they did not learn lessons from WWII, where they were only in the wings.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 17 January 2021 07: 47
            +4
            It's always fun to have an aviation expert like that.
            Quote: Radiator
            the weight of a salvo can only be measured by a fraudster, since without taking into account the effective caliber, the weight of a salvo can be 100% bullshit.

            What are you saying.
            In reality, the ShVAK is a converted machine gun. Soviet shells were completely useless throughout the war. As for .50, this cartridge pierced 500 cm of armor from 2 meters, while the thickest sheet on the Il-2, for example, is 12 mm.

            I completely agree with you that the Americans failed the issue of aircraft armament in WWII. They could have been better, and much better. But certainly not from the Soviet side to make claims.
            Quote: Radiator
            not distinguish between the location of the damaging weapon, close to the axis of the aircraft or in the wing.

            The next required number from experts is a story about how the cannons are drop deadly well positioned in the fuselage relative to the wing.

            You'd better teach Ilyushin to put the cannons on.

            As for the Americans, the Mustang's armament created about 80 damaging elements per second, which were quite effective against any fighters of any enemy, except for very hard fokers. This wide beam of striking elements was quite respected at ranges of 400 meters or more, when the Americans opened fire, using the excellent sights of the end of the war and excellent rifle training of the pilots. The trails of their bullets were only "lit" at a distance of 140 meters, and burned for more than a kilometer.

            La-7, on the other hand, created about 25 striking elements per second, with very mediocre ballistics and unconvincing high-explosive fragmentation action. Long-range fire was ineffective, in connection with which Soviet (like German) tactics attempted to approach the enemy as closely as possible.
            (That is why, I will say in parentheses, the cobra was so popular among the Soviet aces. They rarely saw an aircraft that really knew how to dive and with really convincing weapons. .)
            Quote: Radiator
            And winning air superiority is winning the war

            It's pretty funny to listen to, given the fact that the Allies have had air supremacy since 43. In the East, domination was not achieved by either side throughout the war. Even in 41-42, backlashes due to their small number could not "dominate", although they more or less flew as they wanted.

            However, Korea quickly showed that boots without boots do not win war, no matter how much they puffed up and how much money they ate.
            Quote: Radiator
            Not bombing city blocks, but winning the main battles of a million on the ground

            What an interesting statement.

            In the summer of 44, German forces in France were significantly higher than in Belarus. In the winter of 45, the forces that left for Belgium were significantly larger than those left to hold back the Vistula-Oder operation.

            Germany's non-return in Stalingrad and Tunisia is about the same.
            Quote: Radiator
            We were not able to gain air superiority,

            Where did it go with them, superiority in the air? Or maybe it was in the East that the Germans hid during the day and drove at night? And, no, this was exactly what Zhukov did in front of the Vistula-Oder? Hmm ...
            Quote: Radiator
            So the mustang was not capable of gaining air superiority,

            )))
            Therefore, air superiority over the theater of operations was won not by long-range escort fighters, but by other machines. Long-range escort fighters were busy with their work.
            Quote: Radiator
            The Mustang was created only in order to fly somewhere near the bombers and put a barrage of fire.

            )))
            Barrier fire, yes.
            Where did the record German production of fighters in the 44th go? Has someone ever seen them in the East?
            Quote: Radiator
            Moreover, because the Americans suffered much greater losses in the air in Korea and Vietnam, since they did not learn lessons from WWII, where they were only in the wings.

            Extracted, but wrong, unfortunately. What is especially offensive, the same Eisenhower in Europe understood that it was impossible to sacrifice the tactical air force in the name of the strategic, but he returned home - and how cut off.

            And the losses were quite moderate. Naturally, if you try to fight primarily with aviation, then first of all you lose aviation.
          2. Radiator
            Radiator 17 January 2021 10: 53
            -4
            The ShVAK might be a converted pistol, but it is a 20mm bursting cannon. And the mustangs were armed at the end of the war only with machine guns, neither German nor Soviet aviation would have tolerated such a shame. Therefore, only a swindler can count a second volley.
            The rest is just a lie. Air superiority can only be over the fronts, and not during long-range bombing raids. The USSR had it since 1943, yes.
            For the rest, I am listing the facts.
            You are either false or empty statements.
          3. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 17 January 2021 11: 07
            +2
            Quote: Radiator
            but this is a 20 mm cannon with an explosive charge

            Yes, with 2.8 grams of explosives.
            Quote: Radiator
            the mustangs were armed at the end of the war only with machine guns, neither German nor Soviet aviation would have tolerated such a shame

            I'll tell you something terrible. Saber in Korea fought with these machine guns against the 37mm on the MiG-15. And somehow not particularly Americans cried about this. There were some unpleasant moments on other occasions, but I don't remember about weapons.
            Quote: Radiator
            only a swindler can count a second volley

            Any normal person counts a second volley. The early sleeps with rifle caliber performed quite convincingly in the 40s.
          4. Radiator
            Radiator 17 January 2021 11: 15
            -2
            about 4 grams of BB ShVAK. Even here you are cheating.

            It is important that you do not go anywhere:
            1) Mustang non-maneuverable log.
            2) At the end of the war, armed only with machine guns in the wing, which is inadequate for a German and Soviet fighter, whose weapons were 2-4 guns.
            3) Soviet aces knocked him down when they met, 2 pieces per call.

            Well, and about large-scale battles on the ground, the conquest of air superiority and the provision of massive air support to the troops on the ground, it is better for you not to talk about your allies.
          5. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 17 January 2021 11: 47
            0
            Quote: Radiator
            4 grams of BB ShVAK

            Either Vika is lying, or you, I don't even know what
            Quote: Radiator
            Mustang non-maneuverable log

            Yes, it was heavy.
            Quote: Radiator
            At the end of the war, he was armed only with machine guns in the wing, which was inadequate for the German and Soviet fighters, which were armed with 2-4 guns.

            4 guns? Which one of the Soviet ones?

            Shame is the Yak-9, 1 ShVAK, 1 UB. Nobody did this at the end of the war, except for the Soviet luminaries of aircraft construction. And I have already explained to you about the Browning, you do not want to accept this reality - your problems.
            Quote: Radiator
            The Soviet aces knocked him down when they met, 2 pieces per call.

            Soviet aces over a glass of vodka can shoot them down even with squadrons. These feats have nothing to do with the activities of a real 8VA - 1000 bombers + 1200 fighters in one raid.
            Quote: Radiator
            gaining air superiority and providing the troops on the ground as a result of massive air support, it is better for you not to reason about your allies.

            I don't even know what to do then. request Nobody else could turn air power into ground power.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 15 January 2021 09: 52
    +1
    Quote: pmkemcity
    praise their Spitfire and not Tempest or Typhoon, and the Mustang has been abandoned altogether.

    1. Have not refused.
    2. Tempest and Typhoon - fighter-bombers, Spit - air defense fighter. Naturally for the British, the air defense fighter was the main aircraft of the war.
  • Niko
    Niko 14 January 2021 14: 41
    -2
    "It was not by chance that I reprimanded la9" then it can be compared with instant17. What is really there ... or again try to prove that a brick is less square than a ball is round
    1. Radiator
      Radiator 17 January 2021 01: 51
      -2
      La-9 is La-7, only for a more modern scale of hostilities (range), that is, closer to American standards, and completely all-metal. Cannons don't count.

      And La-7 is a 44-year-old car, and it should be compared with 44-year-old cars.
      1. Niko
        Niko 17 January 2021 23: 51
        -1
        You did not understand at all what I was writing about, but thanks for the minus (a sense of humor does not have to be for everyone, continue to write without reading and comment without understanding)
        1. The comment was deleted.
  • Igoresha
    Igoresha 14 January 2021 18: 31
    0
    The one who was higher at the beginning of the attack had the advantage - to impose a battle or evade it. And the advantage in the rate of climb made it possible, all other things being equal, to occupy a higher echelon ahead of the opponent, or to catch up with him going up after the attack.


    I am finishing up "Above the Fire Arc. Soviet Aviation in the Battle of Kursk" by Gorbach, Soviet attack aircraft often complained - cover fighters at the height, we are below and the Germans are attacking us from below. those. FV190 was not afraid to fly and attack at low altitudes
    1. Radiator
      Radiator 15 January 2021 08: 40
      +1
      Weren't you afraid, or was there just an order? By order of the Germans and the Me-262, they ran from fighters to bombers at once.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 15 January 2021 09: 33
    -3
    Quote: pmkemcity
    It is he who should be compared with the fighters of the United States and England.

    Well, compare with the planes of '46. P-80 / F-80.
    1. pmkemcity
      pmkemcity 15 January 2021 09: 41
      +2
      You read the entire commentary, and then shine with erudition.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Radiator
    Radiator 15 January 2021 08: 30
    +2
    La-7 appeared in the same year.
  • Zug
    Zug 14 January 2021 15: 20
    +1
    Why are you comparing aircraft of different types by definition? Raise the Yak by 6 thousand meters and Messer G10-G14 will wash it once or twice, without a chance. Compare the yak with F1 -F1 OR G2 / It will be more tactful. We have such aircraft in general was not as such.
    1. Radiator
      Radiator 15 January 2021 08: 44
      +3
      We built something that accelerated the victory in the war. They did not engage in hysteria on depression from being kicked on the bottom like the Germans. And this product is just hysteria, if you look at the weapons.
      1. Zug
        Zug 15 January 2021 08: 54
        +1
        After the war, our pilots flew on these hysterics and the regiments armed themselves because there were no domestic "hysterics"
        1. Radiator
          Radiator 15 January 2021 08: 56
          +1
          Well, when the war is won against the hysterics, the concepts change.
          And besides, I'm not saying that the plane is bad. But not for that war and the weapons are inadequate.
    2. LastPS
      LastPS 15 January 2021 10: 03
      +1
      Well, by the way, we didn't really need that much - the Union was not bombed by hundreds of strategists from the upper echelon and there was nothing to accompany them to such bombings.
  • Santa Fe
    Santa Fe 14 January 2021 06: 45
    0
    At the same time, the Ta.152 was not the heaviest in terms of maximum take-off weight. At the level of "Mustang" and "Spitfire" and much lighter than "Thunderbolt".

    The takeoff weight itself does not matter,
    What matters wing loading
    Spitfire and Mustang have a larger wing.

    Ta152 with its 250 kg / m2 could not conduct a maneuverable battle with them
    Tank got an aircraft with excellent flight data. We can say that the perfect piston fighter.

    Let's leave it on the conscience of the author

    I will only note that the Mustang of modification D, which, as a fighter, surpassed any German crafts, went into production back in 1944.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 14 January 2021 11: 30
      +5
      Maneuverable battle performed by 152
      152nd against Tempest. 2x2 battle at the ground. April 14, 1945
      So now it was two against two as the ground-level dogfight began. We knew the Tempest to be a very fast fighter, used by the British to chase and shoot down our V-1s. But here, in a fight, which was never to climb above 50 meters, speed would not play a big part. The machines' ability to turn would be all important

      Result - New Zealander Owen Mitchell was killed.

      If in general
      The most elegant of the Germans.
      Kurt Tank, personally piloting this plane at the end of the war, easily broke away from the Mustangs pursuing him.
      1. mr.ZinGer
        mr.ZinGer 14 January 2021 13: 08
        +1
        "Two Indians on a high fence," Kurt's warning from the ground remembered.
      2. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 15 January 2021 10: 24
        0
        Quote: Engineer
        The most elegant of the Germans.

        Yes, handsome, devil.
    2. Alexey G
      Alexey G 16 January 2021 23: 32
      0
      Oooh! Dear Oleg Kaptsov! Hello again! How can it be without Anglophilia !!!
      LTH:
      Modification P-51D-25-NA
      Wingspan, m 11.28
      Length, m 9.84
      Height, m ​​4.17
      Wing area, m2 21.69
      Weight, kg
      empty 3232 aircraft
      normal takeoff 4581
      maximum take-off 5262
      Engine type 1 PD Rolls-Royce (Packard) Merlin V-1650-7
      Power, hp
      take-off 1 x 1695
      nominal 1 x 1520
      Maximum speed km / h
      off the ground xnumx
      at height 635
      Cruising speed, km / h 582
      Practical range, km 3350
      Combat range, km 1528
      Rate of climb, m / min 1060
      Practical ceiling, m 12771
      Crew 1
      Armament: six 12.7-mm Browning machine guns with a maximum ammunition of 400 rounds per barrel for internal and 270 for central and external machine guns, totaling 1880 rounds
      or 4 12.7-mm machine guns and 2x 454-kg bombs or 10x 127-mm RS or 2 PU 2x3 bazooka missiles.
      1. Santa Fe
        Santa Fe 16 January 2021 23: 40
        0
        Good

        Due to the lower load on the wing, the Ta.152 should have a higher speed. Run away, leaving the sky behind the enemy.

        As it was in reality, when meeting with the enemy, Ta fled from the Mustangs and now everyone believes that this is an indicator of the strength of the fighter

        / Listing the benefits of the Mustang may take a single page
  • Magic archer
    Magic archer 14 January 2021 07: 23
    +5
    I learned about Kurt Tank back in the 90s. He created India's first jet fighter !!! At the same time, having managed to live in Argentina and have a hand in the creation of an Argentine jet fighter (though unsuccessful), in general, he lived an interesting life.
    1. Revolver
      Revolver 14 January 2021 08: 46
      +2
      Quote: Magic Archer
      live in Argentina and have a hand in the creation of an Argentine jet fighter (albeit unsuccessful)

      The plane as such was quite wow, at the level of its contemporaries. They produced 4 prototypes, of which 2 crashed, which is generally tolerable for a damp aircraft in the process of fine-tuning. But production in small series in not the most industrial Argentina, as calculated, would have cost more than buying a mass-produced F-86 Saber in America with about the same, if not better, characteristics.
      1. LastPS
        LastPS 15 January 2021 10: 11
        0
        That feeling when the Argentines decided to make themselves a MiG-15, but something didn't work out. Seriously, it even has the same engine.
        But production in small series in not the most industrial Argentina, as calculated, would cost more than buying a mass-produced F-86 Saber in America with about the same, if not better, characteristics.

        So that's the whole point - to create and produce by ourselves. Naturally, it was easier to buy Sabers, it could be understood even before the development began.
        FMA I.Ae. 33 Pulqui II
  • The comment was deleted.
  • mr.ZinGer
    mr.ZinGer 14 January 2021 08: 45
    +19
    The Baltic Fleet regiment flew Ta152 after the war
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 14 January 2021 09: 49
    +9
    Just because Kurt Tank was not a fool

    The author would receive a technical education - he would know that fools are screened out there at the training stage.

    But the talented ones - what was Currt Tank, these are only a few.
    There were, on average, 1 talented in the USSR on the stream in a technical university, in the Russian Federation in the same university there is now only one talent in 3-4 years, it's just a disaster for Russian engineering.
    1. times
      times 14 January 2021 10: 04
      +19
      Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
      in the Russian Federation in the same university now one for 3-4 years, it's just a disaster for Russian engineering

      And they are trying to lure those beyond the Hillock.
      To the author plus.
      1. evgen1221
        evgen1221 14 January 2021 10: 41
        +2
        Yes, and they are trying, then there is no need, the young people themselves first of all consider the possibility of working over the hill, but if they do not leave, then what is left in their homeland. Sadness sadness slogan PARTY LET'S STEER!
    2. boris epstein
      boris epstein 14 January 2021 17: 14
      +2
      There were many talented people. It's just that many of them were closed and we didn't know about them. But since the late 80s, the United States began to kill outstanding Soviet scientists and designers. 70 people were killed. I recommend watching the doc movie from the series "Clues from the Past" - "The Hunt for the Constructor. The Secret of the Unsolved Murder."
  • Constanty
    Constanty 14 January 2021 10: 04
    +1
    Are there really so few photos of these planes that it is necessary to duplicate the photos in the article?
    1. anzar
      anzar 14 January 2021 11: 49
      +5
      Quote: Constanty
      Are there really so few photos of these planes that it is necessary to duplicate the photos in the article?

      The "author" has no time, the copy-paste conveyor cannot wait))) And speaking of seven guns, I could insert a schematic - it's a matter of a minute.
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 14 January 2021 10: 06
    +6
    then it was necessary to move the front spar forward by 420 mm, since it was necessary to compensate for the backward shift of the center of gravity.

    :))) Yeah, the center of gravity is back and the spar is also forward - that is, to aggravate the rear centering?

    writes blatant nonsense!
    1. PilotS37
      PilotS37 19 January 2021 17: 11
      +1
      In fact, Roman's mistake lies elsewhere:
      Therefore, for the first time, the Fokker's fuselage was cut in the nose and a 772 mm long insert was cut. So much because it was necessary to cram a long engine, and in addition, instead of 13,2 mm MG.131 machine guns, they decided to install MG.151 / 20 cannons.

      And then the tail was cut off. A little smaller was inserted there, only 500 mm. And they placed oxygen cylinders for the pilot and compressed air cylinders for reloading the motor-gun.

      After such additions, it was necessary to replace duralumin parts with steel ones in some places. For the grown mass, additional strength was needed.

      And I also had to move the front spar forward by 420 mm, since it was necessary to compensate for the backward shift of the center of gravity.

      In fact, the center of gravity has moved forward (a heavier engine, and even shifted forward, a heavy "battery" in the nose, two tanks behind the cabin will not "tighten"!). Therefore, the wing was moved forward.
      But our Roman in aviation does not understand anything (and he does not seem to have an engineering education), so he translated (someone else's text) as he did ...
  • Dmitry V.
    Dmitry V. 14 January 2021 10: 20
    +5
    While rumbling and overheating, the "190s" tried to climb to the heights where the Allied bombers were being built

    One more "author's" pearl - and at what height were the daytime bombings? From 6000-7000 m on average 6500 m.
    The Germans attacked from an altitude of 500-1000 m above the echelon of bombers. What is the problem for the FW-190s to occupy the echelon of 7000-7500 m - and mostly in advance?
    But when the armada suddenly changed course (tactical maneuvering), then the air defense fighters had to urgently change the area, concentration was carried out in the court and catch up with the armada on afterburners - but this is generally not related to altitude, but to combat deployment.

    And for the Ta-152 there was the same tactical task - to occupy the echelons on a collision course, and not on a catch-up one.

    The author is in some kind of his personal idea of ​​the actions of the Reich air defense fighters.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 14 January 2021 11: 55
    +3
    Quote: Thrifty
    Yes, the Fockewulfs in any form were far from gifts for our combat pilots in the war!

    well, not quite. With the advent of the Yak-9 and La-5FN, the Fockewulfs began to be hit hard. Thin was a much more difficult target.
    1. Zug
      Zug 14 January 2021 15: 24
      0
      I have not heard this)))
    2. cc4299
      cc4299 April 5 2021 16: 46
      0
      And how was it possible to beat the "fore" on a regular Yak-9 with its speed and its armament? The same lost to the German in everything. Maybe on the "raw" Yak-9U M-107? So that while the war was over.
  • yehat2
    yehat2 14 January 2021 13: 04
    +11
    Quote: Santa Fe
    I will only note that the Mustang of modification D, which, as a fighter, surpassed any German crafts

    The only advantage of the Mustang D over the "crafts" was that the Germans had few aircraft with really high-altitude engines. As real battles showed, when the Germans did not have to climb 7-8 km to the bombers, without being distracted by their cover, the mustangs lost exactly as fighters and fv-190D, and some modifications of Fv-190a8, and bf-109g6, and la-7 and Yak-3, and Italian Makki7s and Japanese Ki-84 Hayate.
    This is because the mustang, with all its advantages, is still an escort fighter with overweight fuel, with a laminar wing that is not the most convenient for combat, with machine-gun armament, which was ineffective against at least partially protected vehicles. The main advantage of the Mustangs was not the car, but the experienced pilot and the economy, which equipped the car so that it had few stupid weaknesses and released it in hordes. As one German ace said, the skill ends when you are driven by 4 fighters.
  • Illanatol
    Illanatol 14 January 2021 14: 10
    +1
    "And we can only be glad that these aircraft were produced so few and so late."

    It doesn't matter at all. The Reich's problems at the end of the war were not with materiel, but with Zoldaten. The men are over, and you can't put the Hitler Youth jerks at the wheel.
    Discussion about comparing this specialized fighter with serial, quite universal Yaks, La simply does not make sense. Is that to be compared with the "mustangs", which functionally performed the opposite function: the protection of "fortresses".
  • SASHA OLD
    SASHA OLD 14 January 2021 16: 46
    0
    game video about Tashka 152-C3
    1. SASHA OLD
      SASHA OLD 14 January 2021 16: 48
      0
      and in modification H-1:
  • Undecim
    Undecim 14 January 2021 17: 45
    +5
    And I had to move the front spar forward by 420 mm, since it was necessary to compensate for the backward shift of the center of gravity. The main gas tank, rear wing spar and fuselage frames were also displaced.
    It is unclear, on the one hand, the author is persistently trying to illuminate technical nuances, on the other hand, with the same persistence he does not want to delve into these nuances, which results in a lot of blunders.

    This is the Ta-152 wing.
    The spar is a longitudinal load-bearing element. There are two of them in the wing. The leading edge runs along the leading edge of the wing. In the middle diagram, they are clearly visible. These elements cannot be moved back and forth. Moreover, if the front spar is moved 420 mm forward, it will be in front of the wing.
    In fact, the wing and, accordingly, the fuselage frames to which it is attached were moved forward 420 mm.
    1. PilotS37
      PilotS37 19 January 2021 17: 00
      0
      Quote: Undecim
      These elements cannot be moved back and forth. Moreover, if the front spar is moved 420 mm forward, it will be in front of the wing.
      In fact, the wing and, accordingly, the fuselage frames to which it is attached were moved forward 420 mm.

      Our novel is simply not in the subject, so it allows itself such pearls (when translating, obviously).
      We don't say that. But, in principle, everything is clear: the wing was moved forward to compensate for the shift in the center of gravity.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 19 January 2021 17: 17
        +2
        What kind of translation? He pulls all the articles from the corner.
  • Oberleutnant
    Oberleutnant 14 January 2021 17: 56
    +4
    Very interesting. Thank.
  • certero
    certero 14 January 2021 18: 49
    +1
    Do not understand why 0.36 atmospheres were made in the cockpit? can a pilot normally behave in such conditions
    1. KSVK
      KSVK 14 January 2021 20: 13
      +2
      Quote: certero
      Do not understand why 0.36 atmospheres were made in the cockpit? can a pilot normally behave in such conditions

      If about Nitrox 21, about air, that is, then he will not be able to breathe for sure. I mean, it can, but not for long. :) But oxygen is quite clean.
      Only now the pressure is so low is fraught with decompression.
    2. Dmitry V.
      Dmitry V. 18 January 2021 10: 14
      +3
      Quote: certero
      Do not understand why 0.36 atmospheres were made in the cockpit? can a pilot normally behave in such conditions


      At ground level, the pressure is 760 mm Hg. stb. at an altitude of 9000m 210 mm Hg. stb. the difference is more than three times.
      Accordingly, the walls of the pressurized cabin must be made thicker, which contradicts the optimal weight of the fighter.
      Therefore, a compromise was made - the pressure did not exceed the strength characteristics of the standard cabin and the pressure drop was not so high that the pilots did not experience too high pain thresholds - this greatly facilitated combat maneuvering on verticals.
      Usually untrained pilots lose consciousness at an altitude of 5500 - 6000 m in a pressure chamber.

      Vorozheikin describes how they climbed 7m on the Yak-9 Yak-7000 without oxygen equipment (removed to save weight!)!
      Here's how he describes a similar episode in his book Berlin Below Us:
      Sulam and I climbed above everyone else and walked on the outskirts. From here we can clearly see all our aircraft. True, at times they were obscured by clouds, but this is not dangerous. Enemy fighters will certainly attack bombers from above. Against the background of clouds, we cannot overlook the enemy. We have freedom of maneuver with Sudan. Only now the altitude - 7000 meters - is very high, and I feel my temples knocking from oxygen starvation. I'm worried about my partner:
      - How are you not choking?
      - No. It can be even higher.
      Oh, how brave! At high altitudes, fainting may occur imperceptibly. Before this comes a blissfully sleepy state. The pilot does not experience painful sensations. And woe to him if he succumbed to this self-deception. So I ask:
      - You don't want to sleep?
      And it was only through the headphones that the spirited answer of the wingman sounded, when I saw a pair of Focke Wulf 190 making their way through the clouds to the bombers.
      Enemy fighters wanted to sneak up unnoticed, but the frequent gaps in the clouds gave them away. The enemy is clearly visible to us from above. And we to him? Hardly. The sun reliably blinds the enemy.
      "Fokkers" both can be shot down at once. It would be easy to do this with Timokha. We must try with Shulam as well. The atmosphere is extremely favorable. In addition, the partner noticed the enemy and informed me. The eye is sharp. Let him train him when attacking. True, I do not hope that Sulam will be able to destroy the enemy plane. But there is no better way to teach a young pilot to shoot.
      I choose the moment when it is most convenient to attack enemy fighters. You need to attack them when leaving the clouds. Jumping out of the thick veil, they will be blinded by the sun for a few seconds.
      And as soon as both enemy aircraft disappeared in a long ridge of clouds, we dived steeply, braking our cars where the Fokkers were supposed to appear again!
      They jumped out of the ridge at the same time and were in front of us, a little lower. Great targets! Two seconds for a maneuver - and the enemy plane blended into the shiny threads of my sight. Shells and large-caliber bullets hitting hard metal as if they had struck sparks from the Fokker. He flushed and went downstairs, leaving behind clouds of smoke.
      1. Intruder
        Intruder 19 January 2021 06: 01
        0
        Usually untrained pilots lose consciousness at an altitude of 5500 - 6000 m in a pressure chamber.
        it is in laboratory conditions, already at 4500 m, general coordination begins to be lost and cognitive functions decrease noticeably, and this is not entirely "good" in piloting, and even more so in combat ...
        1. Dmitry V.
          Dmitry V. 20 January 2021 10: 21
          0
          Quote: Intruder
          it is in laboratory conditions, already at 4500 m, general coordination begins to be lost and cognitive functions decrease noticeably, and this is not entirely "good" in piloting, and even more so in combat ...


          Absolutely.
          Imagine my surprise when I read from Vorozheikin about the lack of oxygen at 7000 m and find out that they fought at such heights without oxygen equipment at all!
          Everyone removed oxygen cylinders to save weight, increase the rate of climb and maneuverability of the Yak-7B ...
          What did it cost the pilots - loss of consciousness, burst capillaries in the eyes, bruises. The covering group had to stay at altitudes up to 7000 m and make difficult tactical decisions and fight ...
          This fact made a great impression on me.
          Here is one of the episodes when the fockers dragged our Yaks to 8000 m.
          Eyes painfully rest against the sun. Something gleams underneath. It must be the enemy. So it is - four Focke Wolves 190. But for some reason they are very white. And, unfortunately, at the same height with us. Hurry to attack! But they leave us and go up.
          The eye sees, but the tooth doesn’t. The Fokkers have advantages both in speed and in maneuver at such an altitude. Our yaks are good up to 5000 meters. And yet the Fokkers don't risk attacking. They apparently want to climb even higher and only after that go on the attack. We do not show powerlessness, we create the appearance of a chase, climbing up. It's bad that we don't have oxygen on our cars, and without it we can suffocate. Will we withstand? Not so long ago, I had to observe how the pilot lost consciousness at 6000 meters due to oxygen starvation and, without regaining consciousness, randomly fell to the ground.

          and then the same episode, which opens one of the ways to temporarily delay the loss of consciousness at an altitude of 7000-8000 m from the outstanding ass.
          During the first call, the Ukrainian and I were at an altitude of 7500 meters. The four "Fokkers" are already higher and are flying on courses parallel to us. She understands that now it is not in her power to interfere with the attack on the airfield and, apparently stunned by our numbers, is in no hurry to engage. Well, let it be, her business. And ours?
          The altimeter is already showing 8000 meters. I clearly do not have enough air. I don't want to look at anything. Lethargy. This is the first sign of impending loss of consciousness. I poke my head out of the cockpit and open my mouth like a fish on a shore. Pressurized air fills the lungs. It's easier this way. And what about the Ukrainian?
          He is shorter than me and far behind. This means that his affairs are bad. If the Fokkers are attacking us now, we will not have time to help each other.
          - Old man! Stick your head out of the cockpit and stay close to me, I advise my partner.
          - I can not. The motor lacks strength. This is nothing, fixable. I reduce the power of my motor and the follower quickly catches up with me. But we somehow immediately noticeably became lower than the Fokkers. Oh, how would our "shopkeepers" come in handy now! They, having a better altitude than our "yaks", would not have allowed the enemy to manage at the height.
          I feel unbearable. How soon will the "silts" finish their work? They are just unfolding for the second, last run. You need to hold out for at least one more two minutes. What for? The motor, like me, is exhausted, it also lacks oxygen. Here, anyway, we will not be able to successfully fight the Fokkeramizh. Isn't it better to go down before it's too late? No! One has only to show his weakness now, and the enemy, being nearby, will immediately rush at us. Hold on. What if we lose consciousness? In addition to lethargy, I developed apathy, indifference to everything, my eyes stick together and see poorly. So you can forget about the enemy.
          Understanding the situation, Lazarev and Kovalenko rush to help. It doesn't give us anything. The comrades lose speed and expose themselves to be torn apart by the enemy: one of his pair can hit us with the Ukrainian, the other at Lazarev and Kovalenko. Gaining strength, I order:
          - Keep the same height. Increase your speed. Now we will go down to you. Cover up!
          - Clear! - came the voice of Lazarev.
          The enemy, having gained enough height, did not wait any longer. One pair of him turned their broad foreheads at us with the Ukrainian, the second at Lazarev and Kovalenko. If only at such a moment not to lose consciousness!
          The imminent danger drove away the lethargy and apathy. In the eyes brightened, the will strained. Obviously, in difficult times, a person can be stronger than himself. I even threw a warning to Ukrainians:
          - After the attack, immediately go down!
          Defending ourselves, we directed our yaks' noses towards the enemy. And what if the Fokkers do not carry out the frontal attack to the end? They can swerve early and impose a bend battle on us. At this height, this is the most advantageous trump card for them. Oh, and then we will have to tight.
          Frontal attack! Confidently with the Ukrainian go head-on. Fire from four cannons and two machine guns flashed straight into the eyes. The pleasure is not pleasant. They won't. Should not. We answer, but only with one cannon and two machine guns. Such weapons are on "yaks".
          The enemy failed to take advantage of the high-altitude qualities of their vehicles. Having powerful weapons, he carried out a frontal attack to the end, so advantageous for us now. We parted with him according to all traffic rules - on the left sides. Without wasting a second in vain, the Ukrainians and I fell down, and Lazarev and Kovalenko, having a speed reserve, successfully covered us.

          I was shocked by this episode - what an incredible strength the pilots are! How they lacked aircraft with a more powerful engine (which will appear only in the last year of the war).
  • Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 14 January 2021 19: 55
    0
    yes even nine is not a bad car, kurt tank is a very good aircraft designer, besides, a pilot
    1. agond
      agond 14 January 2021 21: 39
      0
      Installing a heavier engine shifted the center of gravity of the aircraft forward, had to make an insert in the back, the aircraft turned out to be too long, too complicated, one system with nitrous oxide is worth what, and let's say P --- 47 Thunderbolt bypassed it, and it's not a fact that 152 is better 47.
      I think Kurt Tank should have installed a supercharger behind the cab in the FW-190D-9, albeit heavy, but effective at all heights, then the center of gravity would return to its original place and the rear would not have to be lengthened, and nitrous oxide would not be needed, but the drive of the supercharger had to be done with a cardan shaft under the cab floor.
      In terms of armament, if 152 was intended primarily to combat bombers that walked in sweaty formation and fired back all together, then he should have increased the attack distance, he needed only one, but a powerful cannon (like our NS-37) and 150 ammunition -200 shells, of course the gun had to be in the center of gravity
      1. Intruder
        Intruder 19 January 2021 05: 56
        0
        he needed only one, but a powerful cannon (like our NS-37) and 150-200 rounds of ammunition
        and dispersion, when shooting one !? maybe they experienced it and decided ... so -
        three 30-mm MK-103 cannons with 80 rounds per barrel and an ETS-503 holder under the fuselage
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 15 January 2021 03: 29
    0
    An outstanding plane that was late for the war.
  • Predator-74
    Predator-74 15 January 2021 10: 40
    0
    The MG-151 cannons never synchronized! How can you synchronize the automatic gun, which works on the principle of a short barrel stroke? The author, correct! The guns of the Ta-152 were installed at the root of the wing.
  • SiberianGun
    SiberianGun 15 January 2021 16: 08
    0
    What is Rustsalz? Armor salt? In the original it sounds like Rüstsatz - an upgrade kit, although Rüst is German armor. Umlaut is lost, but instead of t there is l? You need to know German!
  • Alexeevich_2
    Alexeevich_2 16 January 2021 18: 50
    0
    Auto RU! Georg Wulf died in 1927.
  • Zum
    Zum 16 January 2021 22: 46
    0
    It was Kurt Tank's masterpiece !!! The best fighter !! 190 .... was the best ....
    1. Radiator
      Radiator 17 January 2021 01: 48
      -1
      So Ta-152 or FW-190? That the second was the best is from the category of anecdote.
      1. Hwostatij
        Hwostatij 17 January 2021 01: 53
        0
        And what criteria did you use to evaluate and write it down in a joke? Price / number of units produced / TTD?
        1. Radiator
          Radiator 17 January 2021 06: 30
          -1
          According to the criteria of ease of knocking down 190, about which the darkness of reviews.
          You can also take a criterion - the shameful transfer "according to merit" of 190 from fighters to fighter-bombers (in fact to bombers), a small part in general on auxiliary work - cover at the airfield for take-off-landing Me-262.
          1. Hwostatij
            Hwostatij 17 January 2021 10: 21
            0
            That is, you call the ability of an aircraft to perform functions from a high-altitude interceptor to a bomber shameful? I would write it down as a huge advantage.
            The ease of knocking down according to reviews is also a so-so parameter. Especially when it is not clear what modification is in question in each case.
            1. Radiator
              Radiator 17 January 2021 10: 50
              0
              Not "opportunity", but statements of opportunity. Those who turned in practice differently. The fact that the plane cannot perform the functions of neither this, nor the third is good.
            2. Intruder
              Intruder 19 January 2021 05: 58
              0
              The ease of knocking down according to reviews is also a so-so parameter.
              this is only for selected aces, percentages and only :), but for the most part the average is lower and significantly ..., especially among the "young" fighters of that time after training :)))
        2. Zum
          Zum 18 January 2021 10: 41
          0
          Clarify the question for those who were sitting in the cockpit, at the helm of this car ... and you will receive an answer how many and how often they were shot down. This is especially true in '45.
  • certero
    certero 18 January 2021 13: 35
    0
    Quote: Dmitry Vladimirovich
    At ground level, the pressure is 760 mm Hg. stb. at an altitude of 9000m 210 mm Hg. stb. the difference is more than three times.
    Accordingly, the walls of the pressurized cabin must be made thicker, which contradicts the optimal weight of the fighter.

    Thank you for the clarification
  • Intruder
    Intruder 19 January 2021 05: 52
    0
    But even without the outboard, seven cannons is more than solid. A nightmarish volley that could smash everything in its path.
    the gloomy German genius, however, understood the catch phrase: "God loves - big guns!"
  • fone
    fone 19 January 2021 13: 09
    0
    Quote: Cherry Nine

    Shame is the Yak-9, 1 ShVAK, 1 UB.

    Less than half of Zero 52))

    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Nobody did this at the end of the war, except for the Soviet luminaries of aircraft construction.

    Nuuuuu .. You can recall the Seahawk with two machine guns, but it was not mass-produced and in general a seaplane.
  • Tambov-there is god
    Tambov-there is god 21 March 2021 13: 56
    0
    Judging by the article, the Germans did not notice Russian planes at close range, they were only afraid of Spitfires with paper characteristics, which for some reason were not confirmed during tests in the USSR, and even Mustangs. What are Yak-3 and La-7? Ugh. Then maybe the German planes Spitfires with Mustangs were shot down more than the Lavochkins and Yakovlevs?