Military Review

Earliest firearms: bullets are thicker

150
Multiple charge! This is perhaps the main trend in the development of handheld firearms weapons... Multiple charges and rate of fire. But mankind followed this path for a very long time. And the path was not straight, but winding.



But neither multi-charge nor multi-barrel dominant directions in the development of hand-held firearms at that time did not become. Economy and thrift won out. Therefore, for the infantrymen for many years this weapon has become their "military right". Militaryhistorical museum, Vienna

Bullets, thicker!
By the timid!
Running in the thick of it
shit, parabellum!

"150" V. Mayakovsky

The history of firearms. What, however, was our luminary Mayakovsky: to hit people fleeing with bullets in the back is terrible. This is something of the style of the cannibal Bokasso, only he drove a ZIL through those tied in the square in front of his palace. I could, probably, and on the DT-75, but apparently did not realize. Or the tractor was not sent to him.

However, so that Mayakovsky, glorifying 150 million, did not write there, he conveyed the basic idea of ​​firearms quite rightly - bullets should be fired at the target as much as possible. That is, shoot more often and then you will definitely hit someone!

And they realized, I must say, this is the same as our ancestors a long time ago. Right at the dawn of firearms. In the previous material of this cycle, an illustration was given of Liliana and Fred Funkenov, which showed arrows with shooting clubs, the warhead of which consisted of several barrels: he shot all the charges and you can hit them on the heads - they will not break.

Weapon of kings


And even the kings did not disdain such weapons. So, Henry VIII, who was very enthusiastic about the original combined weapon and had a "sprinkler" in his collection - a shooting club, similar to the same Hussite samples.

It was first mentioned in the inventory of 1547, and since at least 1686 it has been known as the "Staff of King Henry VIII". At the end of the 1830th century, it was claimed that this was Henry's favorite weapon during his night walks in London. By XNUMX, the Tower's guides were telling stories of Henry's imprisonment on one such walk, after which the guard who had arrested the king was congratulated on his honest duty.


Henry VIII's Walking Cane. This weapon has a long wooden handle and a cylindrical steel pommel with nine radial spines, reminiscent of a "sprinkler for holy water." 1501-1530 (Tower Collection, London)

Its most distinctive feature is its three short barrels, each of which was first equipped with a sliding cover for the powder shelf.

The central spike covers the muzzle with a freely rotating cover, which leaves only the firing barrel free, and why this is done is not clear. The charges were ignited with a wick, which had to be held in the hands, which, of course, was inconvenient. However, it is believed that the "sprinkler" was about as effective as a pistol of the later XNUMXth century.

Surprisingly, such a primitive weapon coexisted in the arsenal of Henry VIII with truly revolutionary models.

So, for him, in 1537, a gun was made, which was loaded from the breech. It is the larger of the two surviving guns of this type, created for King Henry VIII. It lacks the original locking mechanism and the luxurious velvet cheek pad, but is otherwise in good condition.

The stock and breech are decorated with royal insignia, and the barrel is engraved with “HR” by Henricus Rex. The initials "WH" on the barrel are believed to represent William Hunt, the gunsmith who became King Henry's first "Keeper of the Royal Pistols and Falconets".


Henry VIII's breech-loading rifle (Dated to 1537). (Royal Arsenal, Leeds)

A square barrel at the breech, then a round, muzzle trimmed with moldings.

At the rear, there is a hinge block that is lifted with a lever on the right. When closed, secured with a transverse pin at the front. Metal cartridges.

The barrel is engraved with acanthus flowers, a Tudor rose, and has the letters H and R.

The rest of the barrel is grooved to the very end, the sight is brass. The back retains traces of gilding.

A slightly curved buttstock. The left side was fitted with a zygomatic pad, of which only the brass fixing nails remained. Just behind the breech is a shield-shaped, previously gilded, copper plate on which the figures of Saint George and the Dragon are engraved.

The steel trigger guard is probably a replacement. The current sliding lid lock appears to have been made in the 650th century. Barrel length 975 mm. Total length 4,22 mm. Weight XNUMX kg.

In the collection of the Tower's Royal Arsenal, it was listed as the "Carbine of Henry VIII". The first mention in the inventory - 1547

The weapon is so well made that even with a smooth barrel it could accurately shoot at a distance of at least 100 meters (which roughly corresponds to the length of a football field).

Heinrich probably used this rifle for target shooting. It can also be quickly loaded and reloaded by opening the bolt and inserting a pre-loaded chamber.

That is, having, say, ten pre-loaded chamber chambers, a shooter from such a weapon could easily fire ten rounds per minute. Interestingly, the soldiers will not have such a firearm for another 300 years.


Wick lock device. As you can see, all its details were easy to forge and carve even for a village blacksmith. Drawing from the book "Small Arms" by Christopher Hunt. P. 7

Locks


Note that the wick weapon of that time was also inconvenient to use because the burning wick had to be brought to the seed either, in general, with your hands (although, most likely, with gloves!), Or with special tongs.

Therefore, already in the 30s of the XNUMXth century, people took care of creating a mechanism that would save them from this unpleasant operation, as well as from wearing forceps.

There is a document from 1439, from which it is clear that already at that time “castle blacksmiths” were working in the city of Bratislava, and they made locks precisely for ignition. Well, in the work of Martin Merz "The Book of Fire Case", which dates back to 1475, you can already see a schematic drawing of a matchlock, which subsequently did not change very much.

Earliest firearms: bullets are thicker
Edo era Japanese wick rider pistol (carbine) c. 1750 It is interesting that the spring on it is also brass. Clip-on trigger. Length 48,7 cm. Photo courtesy of Alain Daubresse, author of www.littlegun.be.



The powder shelf is closed with a special lid. Photo courtesy of Alain Daubresse, author of www.littlegun.be.

The difference, perhaps, was only in the position of the S-shaped clip for the wick: in Europe, it moved from the barrel to the shooter when fired, but in Asian countries, on the contrary, from the shooter to the barrel.

The mainspring could have been arranged in different ways, but in general it was such a simple mechanism that there was simply no need to improve it.


Tanzutsu - short-barreled match pistol, Edo period 1615-1868 It is not clear that this is a military weapon, which will obviously be very difficult to use, or just an expensive souvenir. Anne and Gabrielle Barbier Museum, Dallas, Texas

In addition to a wick lock with a pushing action, there was also a more complex, locking one.

In it, the trigger with the wick did not fall on the shelf, but fell on it under the action of a spring. That is, first it was necessary to cock it, and then, by pressing the trigger, to release it from engagement with the whisper tooth. In this case, the descent was very fast, so the sight did not go astray.

Such locks, as more expensive ones, have found their use among hunters and target shooters.

Arquebus


To prevent the wind from blowing gunpowder off the shelf before firing, a shelf cover was invented. And so that the sparks of gunpowder did not fly into the eyes, a transverse shield was placed on the barrel.

This is how the wick arquebusses and muskets appeared, firing from which from a distance of 40-50 meters it was already possible to hit a full-length figure. True, to fire their heavy musket, it was necessary to lean it on a support - a bipod.


Venetian arquebusier of the early 2002th century with a hand-to-hand combat pitchfork (left), right a German halberdist. The fashion at that time for military clothing was, of course, still those ... Illustration from the book by Liliana and Fred Funkenov “Encyclopedia of weapons and military clothing. Middle Ages. Renaissance: Infantry. Cavalry. Artillery. M .: Astrel, 55, S. XNUMX



Arquebusier from an engraving by Jacob de Gein 1608 Illustration from the book by Liliana and Fred Funkenov “Encyclopedia of weapons and military clothing. Middle Ages. Renaissance: Infantry. Cavalry. Artillery. M .: Astrel, 2002, p. 101

And already then (namely in 1530) revolving guns with drum power appeared.

In particular, the wick arquebus with a drum for ten charges dates back to this very year, the image of which is cited in their book on weapons and military clothing of the Renaissance, Lilian and Fred Funkens.

Also known is a three-barreled wick arquebus with two barrels of 9-mm caliber and one - 11, made in Northern Italy at about the same time. By the way, in its length - 653 mm, it is nothing more than a carbine.


Drum match gun from India. XNUMXth century. That's what people thought of there, and so long ago. Victoria and Albert Museum, London



The drum of this gun. Victoria and Albert Museum, London

From the second half of the XNUMXth century. firearms also penetrated the cavalry. The equestrian rifle was called petrinal, from the word "poitrain" - "chest". These were the trunks, the breech resting against the breast cuirass, while the horned stands attached to the saddle bow served as a support for them. They were set on fire with a wick, which had to be held in hand. Later, the petrinal also received wick locks, but the characteristic butts for resting on the chest on them remained for a long time.


An early example of a horseman's firearm. The barrel device is shown on the left. Illustration from the book by Liliana and Fred Funkenov “Encyclopedia of weapons and military clothing. Middle Ages. Renaissance: Infantry. Cavalry. Artillery. M .: Astrel, 2002, p. 65



Petrinal 1590 Royal Arsenal, Leeds

A little about the bullets that were used in hand-held firearms at that time.

Initially, both shells for large-caliber cannons and small-caliber bullets for hand-held gadgets and writers were ... made of stone. Moreover, if the stone cores had to be hewn out, the stone bullets were easily carved out on emery wheels.

But very soon it became clear that from a blow from a knight's cuirass, such bullets turn into dust, without causing any particular harm. The cores from the impact also shattered into pieces, but their fragments flew to the sides and could hurt someone. That is why, by the way, they were used for so long.


Stone cores for artillery pieces. Cesky Krumlov Castle, Czech Republic



And these are lead bullets, equally suitable for both XNUMXth century arquebusses and XNUMXth century muskets! Penza Museum of the Russian Army

That is why bullets very soon began to be cast from lead. Although it was dangerous to shoot with such bullets. The famous French knight Bayard, for example, ordered to hang all the arquebusiers who were captured by him, but no mercy was given, first of all, to those who fired bullets from lead. As if he knew that he was destined to die from such a bullet.

So some used iron bullets and even silver bullets. And only because it was believed that lead is poisonous (which was true!), So wounds from it should be disinfected with boiling oil or red-hot iron (so that it would be completely wrong and, in addition, very painful). Well, the silver bullets helped to avoid this torture and therefore hope for a kind attitude towards oneself.

No one then knew that the point was not at all the toxicity of lead, but in the general unsanitary conditions that reigned everywhere.

For example, the same French arquebusiers, although not only they, used to cover the ignition holes on the arquebus trunks (so that water does not get there in the rain) with their own feces, so that from the then male shooters and from their weapons also smelled ...

And today we can only guess what kind of purity they took on these bullets with their hands.

To be continued ...
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  1. certero
    certero 17 January 2021 05: 24
    +1
    I still do not understand why the author ran into Mayakovsky? Where does the poet say about shooting in the back?
    1. Van 16
      Van 16 17 January 2021 05: 40
      +7
      "about shooting in the back"

      Apparently, because of the word "robbed". Where can the "thick of the running" and even the "robbed" run? Probably from the one who shoots at them with parabellum. As a version.
      1. Tochilka
        Tochilka 17 January 2021 08: 19
        +2
        Duc "150000000" poem about the revolution. Down with the king, down with the lords. Why not shoot such people without understanding where? Especially considering the time of writing in 1919.
      2. John22
        John22 17 January 2021 13: 20
        +3
        Mayakovsky says "timid", i.e. confused. And you can run to the enemy, not from him.
    2. VORON538
      VORON538 17 January 2021 06: 41
      +1
      Well, how can the author not pick up the communist system? The article is generally informative, but here's the first paragraph, a huge fly in the ointment!
      1. Fat
        Fat 17 January 2021 10: 44
        +5
        Artem. hi You are probably so familiar with the work of Mayakovsky that you immediately condemned?
        It seems that you are just looking for a black cat in a dark room, in conditions where there is none.
        I would recall a couple of lines from V.V. Mayakovsky, but I'm afraid that with your inclinations, you may be offended.
    3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 17 January 2021 09: 06
      +9
      Quote: certero
      I still do not understand why the author ran into Mayakovsky? Where does the poet say about shooting in the back?

      Where is Heinrich English, and where is Mayakovsky! laughing or the epigraph is not accustomed to read, and the text of the article is only the first paragraph of the water part !! laughing although under "timid" can be understood as about nasty! However, how much "putty" was lost for the pilot holes !!! am
      Well, we have already gone through this - I have not read it, but I condemn it !!!
      Hmm, time is running out, but people stay !!!
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 17 January 2021 17: 08
        +7
        Namesake, what can you do, because the world is not perfect. Although it is said that man is created in the image and likeness.
        But others claim that we are descended from monkeys. So to perfection, we are like: "cancer to Moscow"
        It seems that in: "Teens in the Universe" the robots wanted to fix people, but the fulyugan had a nail in their pocket and .... the correction of people was covered with a copper basin
    4. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 17 January 2021 10: 25
      +7
      Well, Mayakovsky praised the Revolution and communism, here is a former professional Marxist-Leninist and cannot forgive him that communism has not yet been built.
      1. kalibr
        17 January 2021 12: 14
        -2
        Quote: Aviator_
        cannot forgive him that communism has not yet been built.

        Of course, given the "communism" that was being built in our country, had we delayed its collapse, I would have rolled like cheese in butter, but I had to start all over again.
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 17 January 2021 15: 18
          +6
          with the "communism" that was being built in our country, had we delayed with its collapse, I would have rolled like cheese in butter, and so I had to start all over again.

          Why then went on this path, when no one suspected about the collapse? Did you want to get to the party food distributor?
          1. kalibr
            17 January 2021 16: 16
            +1
            I was always told that all the best are in the party. I understood that I myself was not one of the last, but if so, then where else would I be? At first I did not know about the distributor. This was not shouted at all corners. By the way, I joined the party in the village, on the order, as one of the best teachers in the area. There were only two of us, dear Sergey. But you, as I see, are inclined to discuss personalities ... Then God himself ordered you to read the third part of the trilogy "Three from Ensk" - "Green palm trees, golden sand". Almost everything is autobiographical there ... Have a lot of fun!
            1. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 17 January 2021 16: 24
              +6
              Clear. "You can become a communist only when you enrich your memory with everything that humanity has worked out before you." Enriched and got into the order. The best teacher who hated his students. I am absolutely indifferent to your personality, its disclosure happened a long time ago. I really do not respect people who shit on the past of the country.
              1. kalibr
                17 January 2021 18: 28
                0
                Quote: Aviator_
                I am absolutely indifferent to your personality, its disclosure happened a long time ago.

                You can't tell from the comments!
                Quote: Aviator_

                By the way, not without my own help. Do you know why? Because 80% of people ... yeah ... you know who? And their favorite pastime is ... discussing other people, which gives the site comments and clicks. What, in fact, is needed from them, right?
                I really do not respect people who shit on the past of the country.

                And this is already a matter of taste and intelligence. But for me, after all, everything is based on documents and newspapers, that is, on facts. Old party school, you know. And the fact is the fact. Shit is fiction. And when the facts there is nothing to be done.
              2. kalibr
                17 January 2021 18: 30
                +2
                Quote: Aviator_
                The best teacher who hated his students.

                That's it! Can you imagine what pedagogical skill you had to show? Introduce a self-created electronic examiner ... This was not even in all Moscow schools!
              3. Grim Reaper
                Grim Reaper 17 January 2021 22: 00
                +4
                Quote: Aviator_
                Clear. "I really do not respect people who are shitting on the country's past.

                did not notice that Shpakovsky was "crap". Yes, predominantly good things, associated with trees, grass and girls, remain in the memory. IN. REMEMBERS how we lived then. Not only good ... But not "shit" in any way.
  2. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 17 January 2021 05: 31
    +6
    Yeah, covering up the ignition holes with your own waste is cool, where can you get so much shit in battle?
    Thank you Vyacheslav for the article, hi as always very informative. I look forward to continuing.
    1. Lipchanin
      Lipchanin 17 January 2021 05: 54
      +1
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      in battle that much shit to take?

      Well, why cover up in battle, you have to shoot there.
      Was covered up on a hike when it rained
      (so that water does not get there in the rain)
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 17 January 2021 06: 06
      +11
      Yeah, covering up the ignition holes with your own waste is cool, where can you get so much shit in battle?
      The tradition of using biological waste in shooting has a long history. Famous English archers sculpted targets for training and competition from manure. In this connection, the death of Richard the Lionheart from sepsis looks quite logical.
      1. Revolver
        Revolver 17 January 2021 10: 57
        +5
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        The tradition of using biological waste in shooting has a long history.

        So this is where the expression about sculpting bullets from the waste of the digestive tract came from ... wassat
      2. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 10: 55
        +1
        In this connection, the death of Richard the Lionheart from sepsis looks quite logical.

        Richard was struck with a crossbow bolt. Moreover, the knight struck. I wonder how much a "noble don" should smear a bolt with his contents? Although that knight was a rogue from rogue. laughing
        Anne and Gabriel Barbier Museum

        Have you ever watched the comedy "Rat Race"? There, a group of heroes somewhere in the American outback sees a sign "Barbie Museum", and a girl, a daughter, begs to take her there. Arriving at the museum, they discover ... that the exhibition is dedicated to Klaus Barbie, the "butcher of Lyons". belay I must say that the name of the doll and his surname are spelled the same ... request In Russian articles, his name is usually distorted in the French manner - Barbier. hi
    3. Cowbra
      Cowbra 17 January 2021 06: 44
      +6
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Where to take so much shit in battle?

      As if the question is just)))
      In general, about the hygiene of the "gallant century" - yes))) Culture with ceevrope. Although it has not changed much there - Friday in London is the same wild Middle Ages with urine streams through the streets
      1. kalibr
        17 January 2021 09: 35
        +8
        Quote: Cowbra
        with streams of urine through the streets

        And in Paris it smells right in the side gates of the Louvre ... If you go from the Rue de Rivoli ...
        1. Grim Reaper
          Grim Reaper 17 January 2021 22: 08
          +2
          Quote: kalibr
          Quote: Cowbra
          with streams of urine through the streets

          And in Paris it smells right in the side gates of the Louvre ... If you go from the Rue de Rivoli ...

          ".... in a public Parisian toilet
          there are inscriptions in Russian. "
    4. Fat
      Fat 17 January 2021 09: 35
      +3
      hi It looked like they had stored up feces in advance, from which they smelled of the "arquebusier" notably. laughing
    5. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 18 January 2021 10: 57
      +1
      Yeah, covering up the ignition holes with your own waste is cool, where can you get so much shit in battle?

      It is enough to see a bear once, and much more will take it ... laughing And then .. tension, adrenaline .. In principle, a normal situation.
  3. Lipchanin
    Lipchanin 17 January 2021 05: 49
    +4
    Interesting article and well written smile
    Thanks to the author hi
  4. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 17 January 2021 05: 59
    +5
    And the American workers gave Stalin a Colt. With a bayonet.
  5. certero
    certero 17 January 2021 06: 30
    -1
    Quote: Van 16
    Where can the "thick of the running" and even the "robbed" run

    The author is probably one of those who wrote about foreign detachments who were shooting in the back from machine guns of our soldiers during the Second World War.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 17 January 2021 06: 38
      +5
      Quote: certero
      The author is probably one of those who wrote about foreign detachments who were shooting in the back from machine guns of our soldiers during the Second World War.

      You read his book. It's really fun. About an alternative history. Let's die near Moscow!
      1. kalibr
        17 January 2021 08: 09
        +1
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        You read his book. It's really fun. About an alternative history.

        And what did you find so terrible there? What's the real zvizdet there? I'm wondering ...
    2. kalibr
      17 January 2021 08: 10
      +1
      Quote: certero
      foreign detachments shooting our soldiers in the back from machine guns during the Second World War

      And that was not, right?
      1. SaLaR
        SaLaR 17 January 2021 12: 53
        +8
        Of course it was .. For every emaciated, hungry, tattered Red Guard with one rusty rifle for three and without a cartridge there was five snickering a special officer with a PPSh, a sack of food and a personal tank .. The article is good, but this is a petty desire in every article to go nuts from around the corner to the USSR ....... stupidly disgusting .....
        1. Fat
          Fat 17 January 2021 14: 02
          +2
          1. "Red Guards" ended back in 1919
          2. For rusty the rifle can already be killed on the spot - this is for a Red Army soldier. And the other two for leaving the weapon.
          For a long time such "game" as your comment on VO did not come across.
          1. SaLaR
            SaLaR 17 January 2021 14: 20
            +1
            If you do not understand the irony ... then I feel sorry for you ...
            1. Fat
              Fat 17 January 2021 14: 46
              +1
              And irony should be more subtle, however. Then it would have come. And then just like # Enemy of the Communists (C) laughing
        2. kalibr
          17 January 2021 14: 07
          +1
          Quote: SaLaR
          For each emaciated, hungry, tattered Red Guard with one rusty rifle for three and without ammunition, there were five snickering special officers with a PPSh, a sack of food and a personal tank.

          This is where I wrote this and when? No need to juggle. This is stupid. Both right and left!
        3. kalibr
          17 January 2021 14: 12
          0
          Quote: SaLaR
          in each article to go crazy from around the corner to the USSR ....... stupidly disgusting ...

          I want and I will! Since I have every right; finally we have freedom of speech for which our grandfathers died on the barricades. And if you don't like it, don't read, that's all.
          1. SaLaR
            SaLaR 17 January 2021 14: 23
            -1
            They were dying for freedom of speech ... and here yours freedom to pour dirt ...?
            1. kalibr
              17 January 2021 14: 28
              0
              Quote: SaLaR
              where is your freedom to pour dirt ...?

              And despite the fact that everyone has the right to write what he wants, and not what someone likes, but someone does not. Can I explain it easily? And freedom is common with you, the law does not provide for personal freedom.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. kalibr
                  17 January 2021 16: 23
                  +1
                  Quote: SaLaR
                  Why are you then offended and crying when they call you who you really are .. and run to the moderators forgetting about freedom of speech ... because as you said yourself

                  And when did that happen? Not in my rules to cry because of some words there ... Rather, you will hear from me in response ... pleasant. And the author is not a decree to the moderator. But it is not customary to use "you" on VO - not a pub for loaders - for this you may well be caught from them. And - if it is available to your intellect, "freedom" of speech does not consist in inviting someone there somehow. Is there something you don't like? Klava before you: take and write an article praising the USSR and all its achievements! Flag in hand!
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                    1. kalibr
                      17 January 2021 16: 43
                      +2
                      You are not a priest in church to deal with other people's souls, you should not do this, you better take care of your depth. But the rules of the site should not be broken, but they are: articles are discussed, not their authors. For this violation, you may well get it, as well as for a flood, because a hamam in VO is not at all a place. Can I explain it easily? And since you have a wide soul - show us all wide open: write an article so that it can be seen - a man of "wide soul" wrote!
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                      2. kalibr
                        17 January 2021 16: 53
                        0
                        Quote: SaLaR
                        What ... it really hurts my eyes ...

                        I already wrote - Claudia is in front of you. Do you want to show your virtue? Don't waste words ...
                        And "colitis" is a bowel disease ...
                  2. kalibr
                    17 January 2021 16: 50
                    +3
                    Quote: SaLaR
                    Your articles are interesting ... informative

                    But this is the main thing for you: Pushkin was a gambler, Lermontov was an envious psychopath, Dostoevsky was a player too ... But does it really matter to us? It is important what they wrote! This must be understood, only this!
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. kalibr
                      17 January 2021 17: 17
                      +3
                      Quote: SaLaR
                      they didn't mix in dirt

                      Have you read Dostoevsky at least at school? And how many of Pushkin's poems were banned because they "violated the deanery", that is, with your words "they poured dirt on the society of Russia." Or "Woe from Wit" why was it banned? It's just that people look at the same thing in different ways: a stupid one sees the pouring dirt, and someone sees a normal description of the life of society.
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  7. kalibr
    17 January 2021 20: 43
    0
    And I didn't even think. It's just that the rules are the same for everyone. A flood is a flood. And I honestly warned you that VO is strict with this.
  8. The comment was deleted.
  9. kalibr
    18 January 2021 07: 54
    -2
    Quote: SaLaR
    turns out you are also a liar ...

    I thought it worked. It turns out not. It does not reach, well, let's see what happens next. By the way, I asked you THREE TIMES when you will write the article "The USSR is the stronghold of peace and socialism" in order, so to speak, to give a "decisive rebuff". I ask in the fourth ... Well, when?
  10. Alf
    Alf 17 January 2021 21: 27
    +2
    Quote: kalibr
    Everything is based on documents.

    Yah ? What about confirming the fact of the retreating bombing? "Someone" promised to confirm this vyser with documents from the Ministry of Defense, but that's something in no way ...
  11. kalibr
    18 January 2021 07: 52
    0
    Quote: Alf
    Yah ? What about confirming the fact of the retreating bombing? "Someone" promised to confirm this vyser with documents from the Ministry of Defense, but that's something in no way ...

    To you a scan of the page with a request to give? So that the address of the archive is visible and the text of the letter? What I did depends on me ... But it's good that you carefully read the materials on the site, including the comments. The more there are not, the better!
  12. Alf
    Alf 18 January 2021 18: 44
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    To you a scan of the page with a request to give? So that the address of the archive is visible and the text of the letter? What depends on me I did ...

    And there is still no answer ... Which once again confirms that your post-frank nonsense and anti-Sovietism.
    P.S. So they twirled their fingers at the temple in MO ...
    P.P.S. Give, give a screen ...
  13. kalibr
    18 January 2021 19: 01
    +1
    Vasily, what are you? I wrote to you that the MO archive in Podolsk does not have an E-mail - you can check it yourself, the ass will not fall off. And every time they reply to the letter that because of the virus, they work only on personal requests from citizens. That is, they answer questions about people. Again, this is written on their website. The last time I wrote again to the Russian State Archive, but the answer is again the same - only the MO archive. And he is ... unavailable. Do not twist your fingers, and do not give me any information! For now ... and then we'll see.
  14. Alf
    Alf 18 January 2021 19: 13
    +2
    Quote: kalibr
    For now ... and then we'll see.

    Everything is clear, they said it, they thought it would work, it didn't work. In YOU they demanded, it's scary to think, confirmation of your words. But since you have nothing to confirm, then children's excuses begin.
  15. kalibr
    18 January 2021 19: 27
    +1
    These are not excuses, circumstances of force majeure, there is even such a legal term. Yes, I forgot the screenshots, ay-ay. Well, read it. As you can see, this is the most recent answer, since the very first one was lost in the wilds of mail.
  16. Alf
    Alf 18 January 2021 19: 31
    +2
    Quote: kalibr
    As you can see, this is the most recent answer, since the very first one was lost in the wilds of mail.

    I do not see the answer, I see only your words, which are also not confirmed by anything.
    Quote: kalibr
    Yes, I forgot the screenshots,

    I don't know about you, but I always know what is stored in my laptop and where.
  17. kalibr
    18 January 2021 19: 56
    +1
    If you had 1400 articles on VO, 300 on Pravda.Ru and the same number in printed magazines and 40 books in different versions, correspondence with archives, consultants and all sorts of ... then you would also be lost.
  18. kalibr
    18 January 2021 19: 31
    +1
    These are not excuses, but in legal terms - force majeure circumstances, it was not I who invented this virus and everything connected with it. And the screenshots here, read, specially duplicated yesterday, since the very first was buried in the jungle of postal items.

  19. Alf
    Alf 18 January 2021 19: 34
    +1
    For the first screen, thank you, for the second, and if you send a regular letter?
  20. kalibr
    18 January 2021 20: 07
    +1
    It’s like this: You understand that I’m interested in myself - I didn’t deliberately invent this to annoy you, it was somewhere in my head. And everything that pops up in my head is taken from somewhere. There is no other way! This is a profession that all work teaches us to do. But ... after all, memory is memory. Therefore, I repeat - I myself am interested in checking myself. But it so happened that literally before our conversation, I already sent a letter with some kind of request to the MO archive and they answered me: because of the virus, we ANSWER ONLY PERSONNEL! That's why I wrote in the RGVA ... I thought it would be easier with E-mail. Alas! And it’s useless to write to the MO archive. In a month, the paper will come - "only personal files." Now I was thinking where else to turn, where are the experts who can know? Strained the foam, and remembered: there is an Institute of Military History. Contact one of the departments ... True, I have never worked with them. There is also a question ... prices for services. But I'll try and write to them. The main thing is that we are both safe and sound. And there, sooner or later, everything will be clarified. I've been waiting for materials for Fiuma for a year!
  21. kalibr
    18 January 2021 19: 09
    +1
    Quote: Alf
    - open bullshit and anti-Soviet.

    Well, in the first one there is no 100% certainty, and the second ... nobody forbade the second, right? And you have a wonderful opportunity to write an article in defense of, so to speak, the ideals of the Great October Revolution and publish here. I can even tell you the topic. There will be your own answer to Chamberlain!
  22. Alf
    Alf 18 January 2021 19: 31
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    there is no 100% certainty in the first one,

    But you submitted this as an absolutely precisely established fact.
  23. kalibr
    18 January 2021 20: 16
    +1
    Precisely because experience, a mass of processed information, professional memory. You gain a sense of confidence in yourself and in your knowledge. This is both good and ... bad. Well, because when you write 1-2 articles a day, you can't do otherwise. And it's bad, because it happens that the necessary papers are not at hand. Where are they? And God knows. And then you climb into the third top drawer from the left edge, and there she is in a blue folder with the inscription "important" and lies. Between the folder "Indians" and "Saracen-Faris". By the way, a funny problem arose: my laptop does not take screenshots! So many times we have reinstalled everything that is possible on it, which ... does not remove. Well there is another one that is cheap but new. The granddaughter went to the post office from him, took it off, sent it to me, I to you. Here's a trifle, but how many of them and how they interfere ...
  24. Alf
    Alf 18 January 2021 21: 17
    +2
    Quote: kalibr
    By the way, a funny problem arose: my laptop does not take screenshots! So many times we have reinstalled everything that is possible on it, which ... does not remove.

    There are tons of progs that do just that, both free and cracked. By the way, the Yandex browser has both a print screen and a light screen, both built-in, it's nowhere easier, and therefore reliable.
  25. kalibr
    18 January 2021 21: 27
    +1
    Vasiliy! There is a lot of things, but until today it was not needed. Now maybe God knows how long it won't take ...
  26. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 18 January 2021 21: 35
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    By the way, a funny problem arose: my laptop does not take screenshots!

    Install the print screen. He has been working for me for seven years, and there are no problems with him.
  27. kalibr
    19 January 2021 06: 52
    +1
    Quote: Mordvin 3
    Install the print screen. He has been working for me for seven years, and there are no problems with him.

    What for? It took the first time in 20 years. And the same amount will not be required!
  28. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 19 January 2021 07: 01
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    What for? It took the first time in 20 years. And the same amount will not be required!

    A very useful thing, by the way. Really makes work easier.
  29. Alf
    Alf 19 January 2021 20: 41
    +1
    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    Quote: kalibr
    By the way, a funny problem arose: my laptop does not take screenshots!

    Install the print screen. He has been working for me for seven years, and there are no problems with him.

    Why install it if it is built into the Yandex browser?
  30. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 19 January 2021 20: 46
    0
    Quote: Alf
    Why install it if it is built into the Yandex browser?

    And who knows what Vyacheslav Olegych has there. request
  31. Alf
    Alf 19 January 2021 20: 49
    +3
    Quote: mordvin xnumx
    Quote: Alf
    Why install it if it is built into the Yandex browser?

    And who knows what Vyacheslav Olegych has there. request

    Well, yes, if he himself does not know what is at the top of the screen ..
  32. The comment was deleted.
  • BMP-2
    BMP-2 18 January 2021 15: 52
    +2
    everyone has the right to write what he wants, and not what someone likes, but someone does not. Can I explain it easily? And we have common freedom with you,
    You are wrong, Vyacheslav Olegovich. (Although, maybe deliberately misleading - who knows you :)). But the fact remains: freedom and permissiveness, as they say in one southern city, are two big differences!)) Doing what you want, regardless of those around you, is just permissiveness. But freedom is something completely different: it is the ability to choose with full awareness of the consequences of each of the available options. And, naturally, personal freedom ends where the freedom of another person begins.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. kalibr
        18 January 2021 18: 48
        +1
        Have you learned little about the rules of behavior on the site? Are you going to flood again?
        1. The comment was deleted.
    2. kalibr
      18 January 2021 19: 05
      +1
      Quote: BMP-2
      Although, you may be deliberately misleading - who knows

      Of course intentionally, I'm an agent of the US State Department, didn't you know? Everything, everything to deliberately enter ... and ... then, even scary to think what will happen. But I thought that you are still interested in the question of weapons. The article is about this, isn't it?
      1. BMP-2
        BMP-2 18 January 2021 21: 09
        0
        You are wrong again: I just love Mayakovsky! :))
        1. kalibr
          18 January 2021 21: 25
          +1
          Quote: BMP-2
          You are wrong again: I just love Mayakovsky !:

          Good! He has great poems, who can argue ...
  • Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 18 January 2021 21: 28
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    And that was not, right?

    My grandfather was in the penal battalion. Wounded him during the attack, he stumbled to the rear, towards the political instructor with a revolver. "Where are you going?" "It hurt me ..." And, well, go ... "And he did not see any detachments, he specifically asked in the late 80s when this garbage began to be published.
  • Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 17 January 2021 08: 09
    +15
    "To be continued ..." Promising promise! The topic of "multiple charges and multi-barrel" in the general weapon history, in my opinion, is one of the best! That's just a little misunderstood what a noticeable mark in the arms business was left by the Japanese, who got acquainted with firearms first from the Chinese, and then from the Europeans in the 16th century, and so in that century, practically, they remained until the 19th ...
    But they nevertheless had multiply charged ghans, albeit wicks!




    1. kalibr
      17 January 2021 09: 32
      +9
      A delightful addition!
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 17 January 2021 10: 14
        +7
        Thank you for your rating! yes
  • zxc15682
    zxc15682 17 January 2021 09: 22
    +1
    As for the feces, I strongly doubt it. There were special leather covers.
    1. kalibr
      17 January 2021 09: 31
      +4
      Quote: zxc15682
      I strongly doubt about feces

      Of course, I came up with all this for the entourage ... I confess. And Anton came up with everything about targets for archers ... Well, this could not be!
      1. zxc15682
        zxc15682 17 January 2021 13: 16
        +3
        No one will smear the ignition hole with feces. Weapons love cleaning and lubrication. Do not think that soldiers were so stupid in the Middle Ages.
        1. kalibr
          17 January 2021 13: 44
          0
          Quote: zxc15682
          No one will smear the ignition hole with feces. Weapons love cleaning and lubrication. Do not think that soldiers were so stupid in the Middle Ages.

          Ha ha ha! I don't even think anything. And I use the fact that at that time people wrote about their own, well known to them.
          1. zxc15682
            zxc15682 17 January 2021 14: 04
            +1
            You can write on the fence .. But behind the fence there is firewood.
            1. kalibr
              17 January 2021 14: 05
              0
              Sovsem is stupid, right? Firewood wrote ... Why?
              1. zxc15682
                zxc15682 17 January 2021 14: 11
                +1
                The pancake survived ... Smear a firearm with feces ... am
          2. zxc15682
            zxc15682 17 January 2021 14: 05
            0
            And do not read any heres
            1. kalibr
              17 January 2021 14: 35
              +2
              Quote: zxc15682
              fumble

              "Shit" is not necessary. I would recommend this book to you: Chase, Kenneth (2003), Firearms: A Global History to 1700, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 978-0-521-82274-9
              1. zxc15682
                zxc15682 17 January 2021 19: 59
                +2
                Most likely a double translation error. Or a narrative source. And so they used goose fat or wax.
    2. kalibr
      17 January 2021 14: 30
      +1
      Quote: zxc15682
      There were special leather covers.

      Show at least one!
      1. didra
        didra 17 January 2021 16: 49
        0
        I beg your pardon, but where does this assumption about shit come from? Leather case, this is much more like the truth.
        1. kalibr
          17 January 2021 17: 01
          +2
          Quote: didra
          I beg your pardon, but where does this assumption about shit come from? Leather case, this is much more like the truth.

          I read about it in some (and more than one!) Book on the history of firearms. Unfortunately, they are all in English. I have a monograph on the historiography of knightly armament, where there is also about the initial stage of firearms, and where there is a list of those that I myself have read and those that have been published. But it was published in Germany (in Russian) and is expensive, so it will hardly be available to you. And where exactly what is taken from, I just won't say now. That was a long time ago. My first book on this topic was published in 1998.
          1. didra
            didra 17 January 2021 17: 25
            0
            As it is still doubtful. Here recently about covers for bayonets, in the imperial army and in the red army, there was a dispute on the site. Also, there were people who claimed that the wild "le muzhik" always held a bayonet and only the cultured "German" made a cover. And again, "medieval smelly Western European" is a cliché. And the Japanese and Arabs, as if they were not dirty. In most cultures (as far as I know), touching excrement with your hands is a desecration of a person.
            1. kalibr
              17 January 2021 18: 18
              +4
              Quote: didra
              And the Japanese and the Arabs, as if they were not dirty.

              And where did I write that they were dirty? And the bayonet on the three-ruler was kept by the "wild man" in accordance with the regulations, because the rifle SHOOTED WITH THE BAYONET. 4 articles were on this topic, 4 !!! Well, what are you all here ... stubborn ... and "not deluded". Then you would go to my profile and quickly find them. And do not guess - chamomile-chamomile - spit-kiss!
              1. didra
                didra 17 January 2021 22: 15
                -1
                Links must be given to your statements and that's it.
                1. kalibr
                  18 January 2021 06: 43
                  +3
                  Quote: didra
                  Links must be given to your statements and that's it.

                  That is, you need a purely scientific text with links to sources? And then who are you going to read on this site?
            2. kalibr
              18 January 2021 07: 10
              +3
              Quote: didra
              In most cultures (as far as I know) touching excrement with your hands is a desecration of a person.

              And there was a minority of cultures where it was welcomed, including eating it! And the barborite sect was ... By the way, my article about it was also here. You can find ...
              1. didra
                didra 18 January 2021 09: 10
                +1
                I don't want to judge the quality of your article, I was interested to read it (the topic is good), but you wrote nonsense on the issue under discussion.
                P. S. You can omit the links if it is difficult for you.
                1. kalibr
                  18 January 2021 11: 45
                  0
                  Quote: didra
                  but on the subject under discussion, you wrote nonsense.

                  There are authors here who write nonsense all the time, but I am not one of them. Everything comes from somewhere. And links ... Have you at least a little thought that an Internet site is money that you personally do not pay for using it. That links are not used by 99% of VO readers, and they consume a very large volume. Further, that most of my information comes from English sources, and 90% of readers know English ... "sovsem nowhere." And plus my time. Have you ever thought about the fact that it is expensive? So there is no point in throwing beads that are not in demand, right? I would like you scientific and links: go to the website of the publishing house Lambert; there is my monograph on historiography - and that's it!

                  But it is expensive ... There is a simplified analogue in the Lomonosov publishing house, but it is much smaller in volume ...
                  1. didra
                    didra 18 January 2021 13: 14
                    +2
                    I do not want to be scientific, but to confirm your own (and quite unexpected) assumptions. This, as I understand it, is the meaning of commenting. At the same time, I do not question your authority, I just expressed my doubt. Thanks for the link.
                  2. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 18 January 2021 21: 46
                    0
                    Quote: kalibr
                    There are authors here who write nonsense all the time, but I am not one of them.

                    Bayonet covers were made of buffalo skin. 12 rubles seemed to be worth, if sclerosis does not confuse me. And they made a scabbard for checkers from wood. Like so.
      2. zxc15682
        zxc15682 17 January 2021 20: 01
        0
        Honestly I saw it once on YouTube. but only for a musket.
        1. kalibr
          17 January 2021 21: 16
          +2
          Quote: zxc15682
          Honestly I saw it once on YouTube. but only for a musket.

          For a musket, and I saw, but how for the "devices" 1420-1480, 1520 ....?
          1. zxc15682
            zxc15682 17 January 2021 22: 38
            -1
            Then it turns out that the Moscow archers used feces.
            1. kalibr
              18 January 2021 06: 36
              +2
              Quote: zxc15682
              Then it turns out that the Moscow archers used feces.

              Why did you decide that? Nowhere in the documents is this. The archers were dedicated in 1550, when the muskets already had covers on the powder shelves. And about those that were before, we again do not know. This is not found in any of the documents that have come down to us.
  • certero
    certero 17 January 2021 11: 03
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    And that was not, right?

    Did not have.
    Zagranotryady is generally about something completely different.
    They were engaged in the detention of alarmists, deserters and others.
    And such, when there were foreign detachments behind the penal battalion, this is generally out of altreality.
    1. kalibr
      17 January 2021 11: 24
      0
      You will also say that there were no extrajudicial shootings ...
  • certero
    certero 17 January 2021 12: 21
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    You will also say that there were no extrajudicial shootings ...

    Somehow you quickly change the subject of what you were talking about.
    It was about detachments and firing machine guns in the back. This was not the case.
    There were executions of deserters, including without a court verdict.
    In total, almost 150000 people were shot during the war years.
    It remains all the same to find out where they shot in the back of those fleeing from Parabellum ...
    1. kalibr
      17 January 2021 13: 44
      0
      Quote: certero
      It remains all the same to find out where they shot in the back of those fleeing from Parabellum ...

      This is for Mayakovsky!
    2. kalibr
      17 January 2021 13: 47
      +3
      It would be nice for you to get acquainted with this work: V.P. Shuplenkov. Problems of the criminal law fight against crimes against the defense of the USSR // Military law: an anthology of dissertations. - M .: For the rights of military personnel, 2011 .-- S. 341-343
      This is a summary of his doctoral dissertation: “Problems of the criminal law fight against crimes against the defense of the USSR. Moscow: 1986.
      And here it is:

      And the barrage detachments acted in different ways. Well, if the commanders beat the soldiers in the face and fired without trial, then put a machine gun behind the unit ... that's what God himself ordered.
      1. kalibr
        17 January 2021 14: 36
        +2
        Minus is clear. There is nothing to write in response, so at least take your soul away.
    3. kalibr
      17 January 2021 13: 53
      +1
      Quote: certero
      almost 150000 people.

      More ... 15 divisions to the tail of the Germans for joy!
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 17 January 2021 12: 44
    +2
    Later, the petrinal received wick locks, but the characteristic butts for resting on the chest on them remained for a long time

    So now, when selectively shooting in a building, a soldier in a ceramic body armor is recommended to "press in" the butt approximately in the sternum area
  • Undecim
    Undecim 17 January 2021 13: 19
    +5
    It lacks the original locking mechanism and the luxurious velvet cheek pad, but is otherwise in good condition.
    Translation error. The original wheellock mechanism is missing.
    The "wheellock mechanism" is a wheel lock.
    1. kalibr
      17 January 2021 13: 51
      +5
      Quote: Undecim
      The "wheellock mechanism" is a wheel lock.

      I know, but it also says that this is a later addition ... And to block, that is, to lock such a device as that which was on this gun is simply necessary.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 17 January 2021 14: 11
        +7
        The explanation says:
        "Originally a wheel-lock but now fitted with a match-lock ... The present match-lock with sliding pan-cover appears to be of 19th century make. "
        That is, initially there was a wheel lock in the design, which is logical. A wick was attached by some would-be restorer already in the XNUMXth century.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 17 January 2021 14: 22
          +7
          And the shutter is there. It resembles a Snyder bolt in design.

          Here is the "cartridge" missing.
          1. kalibr
            17 January 2021 14: 31
            +3
            And what locks him before the shot!
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 17 January 2021 14: 43
              +5
              It was locked quite simply - with a transverse pin. This design is not unique. For example, the Vienna pistol. Master Simon Arnold, Augsburg, circa 1540.

              This master, apparently, specialized in such weapons.
  • Denimax
    Denimax 17 January 2021 15: 10
    +1
    Although the wick lock is simple, it is still unclear to me how the wick is dropped when fired, it seems that there is no mechanism for this.
    1. kalibr
      17 January 2021 17: 03
      +2
      Quote: Denimax
      Although the wick lock is simple, it is still unclear to me how the wick is dropped when fired, it seems that there is no mechanism for this.

      You pull the trigger and it drops the serpentine onto the shelf!
      1. Denimax
        Denimax 17 January 2021 17: 56
        +1
        I had something else in mind, when the serpentine sets fire to gunpowder on the shelf, the wick immediately falls out of the serpentine, more than once I noticed this moment in the videos. Of course this is good for safety precautions, put the gunpowder on the shelf, then put in the wick. And nothing else comes to mind, except that the force of the flame from the shelf knocks him down.
        1. kalibr
          17 January 2021 18: 04
          +1
          I just didn't understand you. Yes, most likely it is!
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 17 January 2021 17: 10
      +2
      Quote: Denimax
      Although the wick lock is simple, it is still unclear to me how the wick is dropped when fired, it seems that there is no mechanism for this.

      You see .... The wick lock has existed for a decent time and has been improving all the time! There were alpha and omega ... there were simple serpentine locks without a spring, serpentine with a spring and more complex balancers ... For example, the first two ...



      Can't you see where the trigger is?
  • certero
    certero 17 January 2021 15: 32
    -2
    Quote: kalibr
    Well, if the commanders beat the soldiers in the face and fired without trial, then put a machine gun behind the unit ... that's what God himself ordered.

    the commander has the right to use personal weapons to suppress panic during the battle. Moreover, he is simply obliged to apply it.
    but about the machine guns behind the unit, how do you imagine it?
    Just purely technical? Draw at least a company or battalion strong point on a piece of paper and then think about where to put that machine gun?
    Scientific work of 86, of course, is good only then there were significantly fewer documents than now.
    I remember relatively recently the film penal battalion was shot. And until now, many are nodding at this movie as a document. Although for a long time there is a lot of information about what it was in fact was a penal battalion where only officers were sent.
    1. kalibr
      17 January 2021 16: 30
      +1
      Quote: certero
      I remember relatively recently the film penal battalion was shot. And until now, many are nodding at this movie as a document. Although for a long time there is a lot of information about what it was in fact was a penal battalion where only officers were sent.

      Cinema is not a document. Exclusively officers are wrong. Again, read at least this book: "The Psychology of the Great Victory of the Soviet People." Tver, Prometheus, 1995. There is about it. By the way, the scan that I brought from it. There, all the data is based on the MO archive.
    2. kalibr
      17 January 2021 17: 10
      +4
      Quote: certero
      the commander has the right to use personal weapons to suppress panic during the battle.

      And where did it come from then: Directive of the chief of the poly-etching of the Western Front No. 00205 of 29.07.41/208/5415 about "unjustified shootings of soldiers and commanders" - TsAMO. Form 4. op.85,87.d. XNUMX.p. XNUMX.
      And in January-May 1944, there were over 100 cases of massacre and arbitrary executions on the 2nd Ukrainian Front. (ibid., p. F.240. op.2772.d.18.l.180, 277, 380, 400) And what was the same on other fronts ...
      That is, someone, then, was shooting a soldier and without panic ...
  • certero
    certero 17 January 2021 15: 34
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    This is for Mayakovsky!

    It's still for you. Where is Mayakovsky's description of shooting in the back, remind me again?
    It is inconvenient of course to teach a person what to write to him, it is not at all polite, but I would still like to recommend you to write about a firearm.
    It is interesting to read about what you yourself do not really know about. And when you start talking about things that, most likely, you don't understand so well, it doesn't work out very well either.
    1. kalibr
      17 January 2021 16: 35
      +1
      Quote: certero
      Where is Mayakovsky's description of shooting in the back, remind me again?

      And that people are running away, running away, backwards? In the midst of the fleeing and robbed ... is this a robbed rod to attack? Or is the flank firing? Let's not cling to what you do not understand yourself, but rather simply do not want to understand, right?
  • certero
    certero 17 January 2021 17: 01
    -1
    Quote: kalibr
    In the midst of the fleeing and robbed ... is this a robbed rod to attack?

    Quite. Gritty but pounding into the attack - what surprises you?
    However, I think that everyone has already spoken about this and I am closing the topic.
    1. kalibr
      17 January 2021 18: 06
      +1
      Quote: certero
      Gritty but pounding into the attack - what surprises you?

      Delirium surprises me! Because it says "running" further on. The general meaning is clear - people flee by turning their backs to the source of danger. You are, apparently, one of those who definitely need to be right. Well be.
  • certero
    certero 17 January 2021 17: 09
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    Exclusively officers are wrong.

    It is true.
    The order clearly indicated "to form within the front from 1 to 3 (depending on the situation) penalty battalions of 800 men each, where to send middle and senior commanders and political workers ..."
    And any books from the 90s, you forgive me, I ignore. I remember how much shit was poured on the USSR then, until now that nonsense has not been raked.
    1. kalibr
      17 January 2021 18: 10
      +1
      Quote: certero
      And any books from the 90s, you forgive me, I ignore. I remember how much shit was poured on the USSR then, until now that nonsense has not been raked.

      Then you are just a stupid person, dear. First, you should always be interested in who the author or authors are. Secondly, the book is different. This page provides links to the MO archive. Some I checked - coincided. You can do that too. I gave both the link and the scan. You understand that you are writing me empty words, I will give you links to documents from the archive. Do you feel the difference?
  • vladcub
    vladcub 17 January 2021 17: 31
    +3
    "Tanzutsu" is really not for a fight, but to hang on the wall and admire. And "Henry's staff" is a specific thing
  • certero
    certero 18 January 2021 05: 13
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    I gave both the link and the scan

    And I gave you an excerpt from the order by which penal battalions were organized. In which it is written in black and white who was sent there.
    And what should I read or not, let me decide for myself. Reading the so-called history books from the nineties is, in most cases, a waste of time. since then there have been many more normal document-based books.
    1. kalibr
      18 January 2021 06: 42
      +2
      Quote: certero
      And what should I read or not, let me decide for myself. Reading the so-called history books from the nineties is a waste of time in most cases

      Are you half-blind by chance? Do you read only a part of my texts? I wrote to you that in the literature indicated by me, including the thesis for the degree of Doctor of Historical Sciences, there are references to the ARCHIVE of the Moscow Region. They're being checked ... Large enough print? And you yourself write "in most cases". Imagine that this is exactly the MINORITY OF CASES when it makes sense to read a book of the 90s. The archive data does not depend on the citation year! Can I explain it easily?
  • certero
    certero 18 January 2021 08: 56
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    Are you half-blind by chance?

    Is the Socratic level argument true?
    Practice shows that when the interlocutor rolls into insults, he has no arguments.
    Write better about the shit with which the ignition holes are covered.
    1. kalibr
      18 January 2021 21: 37
      +2
      Quote: certero
      Practice shows that when the interlocutor rolls into insults, he has no arguments.

      You were not given arguments, but a whole list of references and a scan with archival data. Only the half-blind cannot see it. In response - empty words. So this is not an insult, but a statement of a regrettable fact: I look and do not see!
  • Hunter 2
    Hunter 2 18 January 2021 09: 05
    +4
    A surprising number ... in the ruble of "weapons" - a showdown began, and not a discussion of Weapons! Gentlemen - Comrades - Comrades, I urge you to leave History and Armament - as a platform for Communication and not clarification of relations and political preferences! There are many other sections on VO !!!
    Shpakovsky for the article honored +++.
    Ps Yeah ... fecal topic in Weapons belay but!
  • Grim Reaper
    Grim Reaper 20 January 2021 00: 25
    0
    IN. Why are you so "mad" to whom and what to prove? Is it necessary?
    1. kalibr
      20 January 2021 06: 23
      +1
      I'm a man of mood, Alexey! Sometimes "the harness will fall under the tail", well ... "there are not enough brakes." Even in old age he is angry and subject to passions.
      1. Grim Reaper
        Grim Reaper 21 January 2021 00: 07
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        I'm a man of mood, Alexey! Sometimes "the harness will fall under the tail", well ... "there are not enough brakes." Even in old age he is angry and subject to passions.

        Angry and subject to passions. Handsomely. Highly. With your permission, I would like to take it into service.
        ??
        1. kalibr
          21 January 2021 07: 11
          0
          Take Alexey, take it. I will say more: I came up with this phrase and put it into the mouth of one of the main characters of my novel "Three from Ensk". There, an old general with paralyzed legs, Savva Evgrafovich Zaslavsky, who rode in a wheelchair, but nevertheless rode on horseback and led the white underground in Ensk, spoke so. He took everything positive from the old people I knew and stuck it into it. When I wrote ... I didn't think that much would come in handy myself, yes. Time flies fast!
          1. kalibr
            21 January 2021 07: 13
            0
            By the way, today at 18.00 there will be an article about Galan's revolver - read it!
            1. Grim Reaper
              Grim Reaper 21 January 2021 09: 05
              +1
              Quote: kalibr
              By the way, today at 18.00 there will be an article about Galan's revolver - read it!

              Zhdk Your articles on the ax - little that keeps me from "saying goodbye" like Andrey from Chelyabinsk, and strangely Roman Skomorokhov. Three authors that I still ...
              Thank you. I will definitely put your phrase in. And I know exactly where and how. And I'll say to myself:
              Tse Shpakovsky ......;)
              1. kalibr
                21 January 2021 10: 45
                0
                Alexey, you remind me very much ... of yourself! I have a whole set of phrases from many books and ... phrases of my stepfather, which I also use to the point. Then the wife did the same. So sometimes we talk in phrases from books and laugh at ourselves. By the way, about Roman ... I don't know why many scold him so much. I read it constantly and in general I really like them. And everybody has some "roughness".
          2. Grim Reaper
            Grim Reaper 21 January 2021 09: 13
            +1
            Can you spiral your romance? If you like it, I will pay twice, if not ...
            1. kalibr
              21 January 2021 10: 47
              0
              Alexey, here it is: you can read it from a computer for 150 rubles. one volume. Address: author. today. Further in a personal ...
              1. Grim Reaper
                Grim Reaper 21 January 2021 11: 07
                +1
                Quote: kalibr
                Alexey, here it is: you can read it from a computer for 150 rubles. one volume. Address: author. today. Further in a personal ...

                Vyacheslav, can you write to me at [email protected]? Something I have completely lost all contacts ... :(
                Yes, I received your message. Only now to answer it ... Quite stupid, very old ...
                1. kalibr
                  21 January 2021 11: 25
                  0
                  Quote: Grim Reaper
                  Very dumb, very old ...

                  So do I ha ha! I sent the book with the cover. And a short personal letter.
                  1. Grim Reaper
                    Grim Reaper 21 January 2021 12: 40
                    +1
                    Received. Thank you. I read you envy ..