Military Review

Electric ship "Platform-O" - the main failure of the Russian military automotive industry

239

KamAZ-7850 at Army-2018. Source: naukatechnika.com


MZKT for replacement


The situation when the strategically important technology for the production of wheeled platforms for the missile shield of Russia is in the hands of a foreign state can hardly be called outrageous.

In this case, the matter is not limited only to equipment for the Strategic Missile Forces. Air defense systems S-400, Buk-2M, heavy multiple launch rocket systems "Smerch", tactical missile systems "Iskander-M", "Bal" and "Bastion" depend on the supply of equipment from the Minsk Wheel Tractor Plant (MZKT).

Observing the turbulent situation in the Republic of Belarus, there is every reason to believe that the supply of strategically important equipment may stop. The entire absurdity of the situation was well understood in the military department from the very collapse of the Soviet Union. However, it was only by the end of the 2000s that they were able to formulate a tactical and technical task for a heavy wheeled platform and find funding.

Requirements for the future machine, designed to replace the products of the MZKT, were formulated in the specialized 21st research institute of the Ministry of Defense in 2007. Who should be entrusted with the development of technology so important for the homeland?


Six-axle KamAZ-78509. Source: glav.su

Common sense suggests that it was more logical to suggest this to the recent backup of the Minsk Automobile Plant KZKT (Kurgan Wheel Tractor Plant named after D.M. Karbyshev). But at the time of the announcement of the competition, the enterprise, unique for Russia, was already on its way. And in 2011, it ingloriously closed due to bankruptcy.

Specialists in the field of domestic military automotive equipment will probably also name the Bryansk Automobile Plant (BAZ), which was redesigned back in Soviet times to assemble multi-axle ZILs.

The company also has experienced specialists, and the corresponding production base is ready. However, BAZ for some unknown reason was not among the winners of the competition.

It is believed that the Bryansk enterprise was shallowed due to the status of private property - at the end of the 2000s, the state did not have shares in this plant.

Looking ahead, we would like to point out that since 2015 BAZ has become part of the Almaz-Antey holding. And now he is busy with the supply of multi-axle chassis for the Vityaz S-350 complex. There is a hope that at least the domestic air defense system will get rid of import dependence.




















The KamAZ-7850 missile carrier demonstrates the capabilities of all-wheel control. Source: bastion-karpenko.ru

But let's return to the 2008 tender for research work under the code "Platform", in which ... KamAZ won.

The automobile plant in Naberezhnye Chelny has never done anything like that and suddenly became the lead developer of the most complex heavy multi-wheeled vehicles. With all due respect to the well-deserved enterprise, KamAZ has never developed a car from scratch.

A series of trucks that entered the conveyor in the 70s were developed in Moscow at ZiL along with diesel engines. All the main design activities of the plant workers were to adapt third-party units into a single whole. Often it worked very well.

This was the case with the famous Dakar team “KamAZ-Master”. And in the case of armored cars "Typhoon", "Tornado" and "Shot". There is nothing criminal in this. And this practice has proven itself well in civilian technology.

But when the state demands from scratch to create the most complex equipment for which there are no units in Russia at all, then the risks for the winner of the competition are too high.

The birth of "SuperKamAZ"


What is the main indicator of a stalled defense project in Russia?

They do not talk about him in the well-known program "Military acceptance". From the Zvezda TV channel, we learned in every detail about the remarkable advantages of the Armata platform. But there was not a word about problems with the engine, transmission and sighting complex. This is the specificity of the "Military Acceptance" propaganda program.

But there is not a single popular TV show about the machines of the "Platform" project, although the first prototypes appeared back in 2017. At Army-2018, a huge sixteen-wheeled rocket carrier KamAZ-7850 surprised the audience with its ability to move like a crab and turn around literally on a patch. During the show, it was even announced that the Yars strategic missiles would now be based exclusively on domestically produced chassis.

In the future, the machines that received the name "Platform-0" during the design work did not appear, and at the Victory Parade neither in 2019 nor in the anniversary year 2020. We only modestly rode at the parade in our native Naberezhnye Chelny in 2017.

The reason for this modesty is very simple - the developers have nothing to brag about yet.

What went wrong?


The initial concept of "Platform-O". Source: bastion-karpenko.ru

In 2008-2009, the Ministry of Defense set KamAZ the difficult task of creating a family of heavy wheeled platforms 8x8, 12x12 and 16x16 with a carrying capacity of 25, 50 and 85 tons. In addition, the plans were 8x8 truck and ballast tractors capable of towing equipment weighing up to 165 tons, as well as aircraft at airfields up to 400 tons.

The idea is great. And in case of success, "SuperKamAZ" would forever save Russia from Minsk dependence, and even enter foreign markets with unique equipment.

It is not clear only why create internal competition with domestic BAZs? In particular, with tractors BAZ-69099 (12x12) BAZ-690902 (8x8)? Another repetition of an error with off-road KamAZ and Urals similar in performance characteristics?






A prototype of the 15Т528 transport and installation unit on a 4-axle chassis of the Platform-O family. Source: gruzovikpress.ru




Electric ship "Platform-O" - the main failure of the Russian military automotive industry

Modular unified electric transmission and suspension units. Source: gruzovikpress.ru

Given the lack of developments in heavy multi-axle wheeled chassis, in the 21st Research Institute of the Ministry of Defense, KAMAZ employees were offered to create machines of the sixth generation at once. (By the way, even the MZKT is only thinking about the fifth generation. The latest missile carriers MZKT-79221 are only for the fourth).

In this regard, the financing of the "Platforms" theme was very generous - according to some information, the lion's share of the money intended for the development of military vehicles for many years to come was spent on the project.

The growing lag of the multipurpose tactical trucks of the Russian army (KamAZ and Ural) from the world leaders is largely due to the generous funding of Platform-O.

In total, the costs for the development and production of cars of a promising family are estimated at 10 billion rubles (source - the publication "Military Industrial Courier", author - Alexander Privalov, editor-in-chief of the "Automobile catalog").

At the same time, there is not even a plant for assembly of such large-scale machines - the production areas of KamAZ and subsidiary Remdiesel are not suitable.


KamAZ-78509 with a wheel arrangement of 12x12. Source: vpk.name

A small lyrical digression.

In 2015, the possibility of buying a Belarusian MZKT from the government was being considered. Then Lukashenka, in his characteristic manner, said to the camera:

"If three billion dollars are deposited, we will consider the issue."

Then money was not found in Russia. Obviously, they were busy transferring BAZ under the wing of Almaz-Antey.

The amount demanded by Minsk seemed excessively overestimated, and many in the military-industrial complex considered that Russia would independently cope with such tasks for $ 2 billion.

Five years have passed. But there are no signs of successful development work yet.

Electric ship of the sixth generation


Something new was needed to match the mythical sixth generation of wheeled tractors.

“Platform-O” has chosen the concept of a heavy electric ship. At the same time, nowhere in the world has such a technique been built on the basis of such solutions. Among civilian structures, it comes to mind, first of all, mining dump trucks from the Belarusian Zhodino.

Kamaz supercars were to be equipped with a diesel engine, a generator and hub motors. In theory, this is very beneficial - there is no need for a torque converter, gearbox, transfer cases, differentials and propeller shafts. As a result, the transmission is noticeably lighter, freeing up space in the structure for additional payload.

Electric motors reach their maximum power almost instantly when voltage is applied - this is an important bonus for all electric ships. Implementation of design and production modularity has become important for Platform-O. In theory, it is possible to assemble both a two-axle all-terrain vehicle and a 20-axle centipede from motor wheels. The main thing is to choose the appropriate motor and generator.

One of the reasons for the transition to electric transmission was the absence in Russia of self-produced torque converters - the competence in the development of such technology seems to have been lost forever. The military can only buy (licensed and not so) copies of American Allison in China.

Individual motors in the "Platform-O" hubs allow you to control the rotation of each of the 16 wheels of the chassis, selectively brake or accelerate. The ability to turn all motor wheels in phase and in antiphase with the rest also looks revolutionary - this is the so-called all-wheel steering.

Giants have the ability to move like a crab, diagonally, and also turn around in cramped conditions. Similar tricks can be demonstrated by the Liebherr G-LTM four-axle army mobile crane, which was commissioned in the Bundeswehr in 2017.




Source: bastion-karpenko.ru

A number of authors point to the ability of the chassis to brake according to the recuperation principle, that is, to generate electricity when decelerating.

This is not the most important function for a missile carrier, requiring the installation of complex motor-generators in the hubs, as well as the installation of lithium-ion batteries or capacitors to store the energy of regenerative braking. Firstly, such batteries are not produced in Russia. And secondly, these are fire-hazardous units capable of flaring up from one enemy bullet. It will be very difficult to extinguish burning lithium-ion batteries.

Rocket carrier with American heart


Among the requirements for the promising "Platform-O" open for wide publication were the average speed on the ground - 40 km / h, on the highway - 60 km / h (for MZKT-79221 - 40 km / h), as well as the greatest angle of the obstacle to be overcome - 30 degrees (versus 10 for the Minsk rocket carriers).

The power reserve of the novelty was supposed to be at least 1200 km and the total resource of work before overhaul was 200 thousand km. The depth of the ford to be overcome is at least 1,8 m. It was assumed that a wheeled vehicle with an independent suspension could change the ground clearance within 400 mm.

The electric transmission is very good for heavy civil engineering. For military needs, a lot of technological obstacles will have to be overcome.

High voltage transmission electrics require the most careful and difficult insulation to overcome the fords. Perhaps that is why the first copies of the machines of the "Platform-O" family are ready only for 1,3 meters of water.

Changes in temperature and operation in an Arctic climate will inevitably lead to the formation of condensation at the electric transmission units with all the ensuing consequences. Resistance to explosions on mines in electric transmission is nowhere worse - a blast wave and a fragmentation field interrupts high-voltage wires (up to 900 V), which threatens to stop the entire rocket carrier.

Tests of motor-wheels showed low survivability during shelling, even with small arms weapons.


Multifunctional platform and semitrailer tractor of the Platform-O family. Source: bastion-karpenko.ru

By 2013 (after five years of design work), several experimental vehicles were provided - the KamAZ-7850 (16x16) rocket carrier, the KamAZ-78509 (12x12) chassis, the KAMAZ-78504 (8x8) truck tractor and the KAMAZ-78508 (8x8) ballast tractor.

The military department did not accept this technique. And the KAMAZ employees had to recycle prototypes for another 4–5 years.

The result is a paradoxical family of cars.

Installed an American Detroit Diesel engine with a capacity of 918 liters. from. - to implement the required technical characteristics in Russia, a suitable diesel engine was not found.

Perhaps, 15% of KamAZ shares owned by the German concern Daimler AG, which, in turn, owns Detroit Diesel, a state-owned company, played a role.

As an option, the installation of the German MTU R1238K40-1822 motor is considered.

NATO suppliers - partners of the domestic Strategic Missile Forces?

According to Alexander Privalov from the "Automobile catalog", an exotic valve-inductor machine with an independent excitation winding was chosen as the main generator. The result was a very noisy setup (up to 100 decibels), which under no circumstances would be consistent with the TTZ.

There was also a problem with the motor-wheels.

The military from the 21st Research Institute demanded that the mass should not exceed 60 kg. But in the end, KAMAZ employees provided 300-kilogram prototypes.

In total, an extra four tons of mass are collected for the 16-wheeled KamAZ-7850. However, on prototypes of missile carriers, the motors in the hubs turned out to be even heavier than 300 kg. And the missile carrier itself, in running order, pulls 40 tons against the planned 20 tons!

Obviously, with such an advantage, there can be no talk of any transportation of the Yars.

A similar Belarusian MZKT-16 was compared with the younger brother of the 7850-wheeled KamAZ-78509, the six-axle KamAZ-79291. The results were discouraged - the mass of the electric ship turned out to be 10 tons higher, and the carrying capacity was less by the same amount. In theory, again, everything should have been the other way around.

Since 2019, the Russian army has been in service (more precisely, in trial operation) now with 5 Kamaz-7950 missile carriers. It is not planned to buy more, since the cars are complex, unreliable, equipped with foreign units and extremely expensive. Vehicles with Yars missiles do not go on combat duty, but play an insignificant role as auxiliary chassis.

Two years ago, KamAZ decided to restart the stillborn "Platform-O". And in cooperation with other automakers (in particular, with BAZ), finally, create a workable Russian missile carrier.

According to some reports, it was decided to abandon the motor-wheels in favor of the motor-axle scheme, in which it is much easier to isolate the electric motors from moisture, fragments and bullets.

The new machines are planned to be put into production no earlier than by the middle of this decade.

Given the volume of work, it is hard to believe in this.
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  1. Free wind
    Free wind 9 January 2021 04: 59
    +9
    I wonder why you can't make a launcher on a semi-trailer? This long MZKT still cannot move off the road, because it can lead or break the frame, it cannot climb uphill, the middle wheels are hung out, and the load on the front and rear is increased by a factor of 5. The fact that it has a high cross-country ability, well, according to the zvizda, we have a dead donkey that has no analogues in the world. The path of the missile carrier is calculated up to a centimeter, deviation from the route threatens with very large consequences. And why do we need an independent suspension, complicated, expensive, and there is no sense in it at a speed of 40 km, the usual spring balancer is quite sufficient.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 January 2021 07: 07
      21
      Quote: Free Wind
      I wonder why you can't make a launcher on a semi-trailer? This long MZKT still cannot move off the road, because the frame can lead or break, it cannot climb uphill, the middle wheels are hung out, and the load on the front and rear is increased by 5 times.


      Two years ago, I watched how similar "monsters" were moved to the training ground. Weave them on the rules and on the roads. The column ran into road repairs. I got off the side of the road, breaking a sickly undergrowth, walked parallel to the road for fifty meters and returned to the roadway. By the way, the escort cars were still waiting, which stood under the traffic lights of the burly builders.

      I'm afraid it won't fuse with a semitrailer - the missiles “don't bend”. On the other hand, the use of semitrailers will increase the length of the road train. And all the same it will be necessary to give birth to all-wheel drive. This is not a trivial task for the railway, but road transport. To be honest, I doubt it. If only within the Moscow Ring Road! Okay, just kidding !!!
      1. Free wind
        Free wind 9 January 2021 07: 47
        +6
        And the burly builders, how is that? Very thick, probably. wassat ... The route of such machines is calculated up to a meter. deviation from the route is an emergency, ambushes, mines, etc. why did the commander not know about road repairs? It is necessary to drive him out of the army, road workers notify the traffic police about road repairs 3 days in advance. Such vehicles with a rocket are very unstable, they go on board only on the way, each vehicle is accompanied by almost a security company. Training where their drivers are trained is one, in the Astrakhan region.
        1. Stas157
          Stas157 9 January 2021 12: 26
          31
          major failure Russian military automotive industry

          I don’t believe that it is an impossible task for Russia to replace the MZKT!

          In the USSR, and in Russia as well, several factories were producing wheeled tractors. The MZKT itself was ours ... The Chinese could! But the Russians are not? The problem is not with the people (the Russian people are not capable of such a thing!), But with those who ineptly lead us, promising only in words import substitution, breakthroughs and breakthroughs.
          1. Alekseev
            Alekseev 9 January 2021 16: 14
            16
            Quote: Stas157
            I don’t believe that it is an impossible task for Russia to replace the MZKT!

            And rightly so!
            It's just that many materials, including this article, are a retelling of the explicit and fictional from various "sources". After all, true information and a "popular science film" are also simply not available in the public domain for reasons of secrecy or any other reason.
            But much in the development of multi-axle tractors is well known.
            In particular, BAZ machines may well replace medium-sized MZKT products. Those. for air defense systems, cruise missiles, etc.
            But BAZ does not produce chassis for ICBMs, such as Poplar and Yars.
            Revive KZKT production? But the plant has sunk into oblivion and it produced tractors for tanks of the Maz-537 type, which now BAZs can easily replace, and not at all a chassis for heavy intercontinental missiles.
            As part of R&D Platform-O, an attempt was made to create a multi-axle tractor or chassis for a 21st century missile system, rather than trying to continue the traditions of the 60-70s. century of the 20th.
            Neither KamAZ nor any other plant had full experience of such work, but, by the way, ChTZ has been producing heavy tractors with electric transmission for a very long time, so there is some experience. The organization dealing with Platform-O has only a distant relation to the plant where KamAZ trucks are assembled.
            Did it work? We do not know ... there is no film. request
            But Shoigu officially announced that KamAZ-7950 was adopted for service.
            Such developments should determine the appearance of this class of machines for more than one decade. Heavy MAZ and MZKT have been producing for more than half a century. Nowadays there is also something to carry missiles. Therefore, it is possible that trial operation of several models in the troops, fine-tuning, design changes will be carried out for several more years, before the Russian army begins to receive serially 4, 6, 8-axle tractors of modular design with an electric transmission.
            1. Stas157
              Stas157 9 January 2021 20: 31
              19
              Quote: Alekseev
              BAZ machines may well replace medium-sized MZKT products

              This was out of the question! The global problem is this:
              Quote: Alekseev
              BAZ does not produce an ICBM chassis, such as Poplar and Yarsa.


              Quote: Alekseev
              Revive KZKT production? But the plant has sunk into oblivion

              Here by itself, took it and sank! At your own request !!

              It was ruined by the current menagers. They went bankrupt in 2010, cut the equipment, and made shopping centers instead. All on a single tracing paper, as with most of the Soviet legendary factories! And mind you, this was not at all with a drunk. And with our knee-jerk. ... And then they suddenly came to their senses, but it was too late to drink Borjomi.

              Quote: Alekseev
              As part of R&D Platform-O, an attempt was made to create a multi-axle tractor or chassis for a missile system of the 21st century, andDo not try to continue the traditions of 60-70 years. century of the 20th.

              Bad traditions or what? I can `t get it. How did they displease you? Well, well, but where is the replacement? Some beautiful words, but promises.

              Quote: Alekseev
              Shoigu officially announced that KamAZ-7950 adopted

              Why are you trying to mislead people? Kamaz-7950 is coming for the Bastions, but we have a problem on what to carry the nuclear shield on!
              1. Akuzenka
                Akuzenka 10 January 2021 17: 55
                +4
                The company also has experienced specialists, and the corresponding production base is ready. However, BAZ for some unknown reason was not among the winners of the competition.
                Apparently they didn't bring the "lamb in a piece of paper", who should. Capitalism is the same. The security of the country is also sold and bought too. The buyer is known (in general terms), and the sellers are all in our sight! And everyone is good. There will definitely not be a war, we will simply be sold.
          2. Eragon
            Eragon 9 January 2021 17: 12
            12
            Quote: Stas157

            In the USSR, and in Russia as well, several factories were producing wheeled tractors. The MZKT itself was ours ...

            Your (Russian) leadership would be less picking at the nose, but would express concern, but would do things. So, you look, and the MZKT would not become foreign, but domestic. And the issue with the tractors was resolved by itself.
            1. bayard
              bayard 9 January 2021 21: 50
              +9
              Quote: Eragon
              So, you look, and MZKT would become not foreign, but domestic.

              Greed multiplied by ambition destroys everything. It is not so easy to duplicate Soviet technologies, a school is needed here.
              And frames.
              And so with everything that was foolishly missed, and now, after spending 7 years, we have not organized a high-quality duplication of key technologies.
              Stupidity and indecision.
              And arrogance.
              As a result - lost time, frustrated plans and hundreds of billions of dollars. losses ... the unbuilt Fleet, skewed rearmament plans, the impossibility of re-equipping the military aviation ... and the enemy bases near Voronezh, Belgorod and Rostov ...
              These mistakes cost us too much ...
              And they will still cost.

              Errors must be corrected.
            2. Pilat2009
              Pilat2009 10 January 2021 11: 08
              +5
              Quote: Eragon
              So, you look, and MZKT would not become foreign, but domestic

              If the plant is located on the territory of a neighboring state, then it can become foreign at any time, even if you buy it
              1. Eragon
                Eragon 11 January 2021 10: 08
                +1
                Quote: Pilat2009
                Quote: Eragon
                So, you look, and MZKT would not become foreign, but domestic

                If the plant is located on the territory of a neighboring state, then it can become foreign at any time, even if you buy it

                Who talked about buying ??? Crimean enterprises and resorts became Russian, while no one bought them ☺️
              2. Aag
                Aag 11 January 2021 20: 25
                0
                Quote: Pilat2009
                Quote: Eragon
                So, you look, and MZKT would not become foreign, but domestic

                If the plant is located on the territory of a neighboring state, then it can become foreign at any time, even if you buy it

                In our reality, yes ...
          3. Simargl
            Simargl 10 January 2021 11: 49
            0
            Quote: Stas157
            The Chinese could! But the Russians are not?
            What did they do? MAZ lick?
            KAMAZ initially started filing a hybrid, hence the problems: for its implementation there is nothing but a diesel engine, but even here the shareholders tried.
            1. Stas157
              Stas157 11 January 2021 08: 42
              +5
              Quote: Simargl
              for its implementation there is nothing but diesel

              What kind of diesel? You mean American or what? Then consider that it is not.
              1. Simargl
                Simargl 11 January 2021 13: 50
                0
                Quote: Stas157
                What kind of diesel? You mean American or what?
                Do you understand how serial hybrid works? At least 100 generators can be supplied by pushing them into the "folds of the terrain", ie. there are no problems with the engine, as such: if necessary, 2-3 units of YaMZ will be shoved. One is just more convenient. But not more reliable.
                1. Stas157
                  Stas157 11 January 2021 17: 17
                  +1
                  Quote: Simargl
                  if needed - 2-3 pieces of YaMZ will be shoved

                  Apparently not necessary. Once the American diesel was pushed in.
                  1. Simargl
                    Simargl 11 January 2021 20: 03
                    0
                    Quote: Stas157
                    Apparently not necessary.
                    I have already written:
                    Quote: Simargl
                    One is just more convenient.

                    Quote: Simargl
                    but here, too, the shareholders did their best.
              2. Aag
                Aag 11 January 2021 20: 26
                +2
                Quote: Stas157
                Quote: Simargl
                for its implementation there is nothing but diesel

                What kind of diesel? You mean American or what? Then consider that it is not.

                A real approach to business! good
          4. zenion
            zenion 10 January 2021 16: 32
            -1
            You can do it and will do it the one that should not have had the fat. The revolution was not for the craftsmen, but only for those when the money goes into the right pockets. And if you shrug it off, why do they need such a country with such launch vehicles?
          5. DPN
            DPN 10 January 2021 23: 06
            +2
            Of course, it is beyond our powers, since they broke the hell out of it and there is no one to restore it ..
          6. Sckepsis
            Sckepsis 11 January 2021 18: 22
            +1

            The problem is not with the people

            In himself. Leaders from this very people are rising. Not only do we have a headache, I see all this at my enterprise: no one cares about it. There is such wisdom - every nation deserves the government that it has. Very wise wisdom.
            1. Aag
              Aag 11 January 2021 20: 29
              +2
              Quote: Sckepsis

              The problem is not with the people

              In himself. Leaders from this very people are rising. Not only do we have a headache, I see all this at my enterprise: no one cares about it. There is such wisdom - every nation deserves the government that it has. Very wise wisdom.

              Here I agree with you! With the "mummies" everything is clear! And, excuse me, pathos, there is no unity among the people. IMHO: the main trouble ... (((
          7. Filxnumx
            Filxnumx 15 January 2021 19: 49
            0
            The Chinese could!

            Did they themselves "manage" or who helped? At the same time, and for a lope (both in time and in u. E.), Could you tell me?
        2. ver_
          ver_ 14 January 2021 13: 56
          0
          ... but it's easier to * tow * this * think * with an airship ...
      2. SovAr238A
        SovAr238A 9 January 2021 16: 44
        -7
        Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka


        Two years ago I watched how similar "monsters" were put forward to the training ground. Weave them on the rules and on the roads. The column ran into road repairs. I got off at the bend by the road, breaking a sickly undergrowth, walked parallel to the road fifty meters and returned to the roadway.!


        Something you are lying as if you don’t understand who ...
        1. Anton Yu
          Anton Yu 9 January 2021 17: 36
          +1
          on the basis of what such a conclusion is made?
          1. SovAr238A
            SovAr238A 9 January 2021 18: 17
            0
            Quote: Anton Yu
            on the basis of what such a conclusion is made?


            PGRK bases - never overlook public roads.
            The safety of the PGRK, which allowed access to public roads, without checking the following route, during repair work, is simply nonsense ...
            This is a firing squad ...

            The PGRK exit from the public road through roadside ditches and ditches into the undergrowth is also a firing article.

            and so on in everything.

            The person apparently saw a transmission on Carbon Force (there was such a story) about the PGRK at the test site, how she walked through the bush (a proven test site with an understanding of soils) - and voiced it as seen with his own eyes, and even embellished it to the skies ...
            Not understanding. what he writes about.
            1. Anton Yu
              Anton Yu 9 January 2021 18: 53
              +3
              I don't know how it is with you (where you live), but here in the Sverdlovsk region it happens and not so. And accidents of military equipment with civilian ones happen regularly. And I think the command of the 42nd Tagil Missile Division did not ask you which roads to use.
              1. SovAr238A
                SovAr238A 9 January 2021 19: 09
                -1
                Quote: Anton Yu
                I don't know how it is with you (where you live), but here in the Sverdlovsk region it happens and not so. And accidents of military equipment with civilian ones happen regularly. And I think the command of the 42nd Tagil Missile Division did not ask you which roads to use.


                I am on the road to Ekatom and Nizhnyaya Tura, along both Saldam and Krasno-Novo-Pervo-Uralsk (I think you know these places) - I spend purely 3 months a year on the road.
                This is my job.
                Our machines work there.
                And I myself see it in reality.
                And my cars move around the clock.

                But no one ever mentioned the PGRK's departure to the roads.
                and I myself have never seen it.
                1. Anton Yu
                  Anton Yu 9 January 2021 19: 24
                  +7
                  I do not know where who is with you, but in our region the locals never called Yekaterinburg Yekat. Lived here for over 40 years. In areas close to Yekaterinburg, they simply say "we are going to the city", and in distant areas they call it Yoburg or Sverdlovsk after the old one. So again by.
                  1. SovAr238A
                    SovAr238A 11 January 2021 10: 56
                    0
                    Quote: Anton Yu
                    I do not know where who is with you, but in our region the locals never called Yekaterinburg Yekat. Lived here for over 40 years. In areas close to Yekaterinburg, they simply say "we are going to the city", and in distant areas they call it Yoburg or Sverdlovsk after the old one. So again by.


                    And I have never said that I am a resident of your region.
                    My drivers are residents of your region.

                    Ekat is an abbreviation used by transport workers ...

                    So by is you ...
                    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      Kote Pan Kokhanka 12 January 2021 21: 26
                      0
                      Quote: SovAr238A
                      So by is you ...

                      Wow, what a discussion here though!
                      Our tanks are running along the Serov tract! More precisely, a little nearby before entering the city, Nizhny Tagil. Why do I know - there is a metal roll across the road so that the asphalt does not spoil the asphalt with caterpillars.
                      Regarding military equipment on the roads of the Urals! The question is where are the SPGs being repaired? So on the street. Chefskoy and by. They are frequent guests of the cosmonauts of Yekaterinburg.
                      Well, and the last, the events I describe, the road Revda-Degtyarsk. The equipment went in a column and was accompanied by appropriate escorts.
                      Good luck and slow down in front of the "careful tanks" road sign laughing
                2. Anton Yu
                  Anton Yu 9 January 2021 19: 32
                  +2
                  And show me where Kote wrote that he saw the complex on the Serov tract?
            2. Aag
              Aag 11 January 2021 20: 35
              +2
              Quote: SovAr238A
              Quote: Anton Yu
              on the basis of what such a conclusion is made?


              PGRK bases - never overlook public roads.
              The safety of the PGRK, which allowed access to public roads, without checking the following route, during repair work, is simply nonsense ...
              This is a firing squad ...

              The PGRK exit from the public road through roadside ditches and ditches into the undergrowth is also a firing article.

              and so on in everything.

              The person apparently saw a transmission on Carbon Force (there was such a story) about the PGRK at the test site, how she walked through the bush (a proven test site with an understanding of soils) - and voiced it as seen with his own eyes, and even embellished it to the skies ...
              Not understanding. what he writes about.

              Are you raving?
              Or the shpien sent?
              You then on the basis of what a person discriminate?
              Keep the answer, please, or excuse me ...
              This is from someone who has not been shot several times. hi
            3. Togilen
              Togilen 14 January 2021 16: 38
              0
              In Mari El, it even comes out
        2. Doliva63
          Doliva63 9 January 2021 18: 18
          +4
          Quote: SovAr238A
          Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka


          Two years ago I watched how similar "monsters" were put forward to the training ground. Weave them on the rules and on the roads. The column ran into road repairs. I got off at the bend by the road, breaking a sickly undergrowth, walked parallel to the road fifty meters and returned to the roadway.!


          Something you are lying as if you don’t understand who ...

          The Barnaul-Novosib highway is very busy even at night. So in the afternoon, on the border of the regions, next to a town widely known in a narrow circle, I "drown" my 180 km / h, out of the corner of my eye I noticed a movement on the clearing on the right, began to slow down. Managed. "Monsters" with missiles jump out onto the track, jumped and rushed off along the clearing to the left. I got out of the car and smoked. In front and behind - the same smokers walk around cars, relieve stress. Is this normal in your opinion? I was driving with my family from vacation and could get smeared on the tractor. What stupid person is planning all this? So, perhaps, comrade is not lying.
          1. Intruder
            Intruder 10 January 2021 08: 58
            +8
            I was driving with my family from vacation and could get smeared on the tractor. What stupid person is planning all this?
            purely mild, he drowned at 180 km / h, and then he talks about the family! ??? :) Who prevented you from going 110 or even 90, if you soar about the health of your loved ones, and then the warriors on the tractors prevented you, something does not fit !? :)
            1. Doliva63
              Doliva63 10 January 2021 17: 38
              +1
              Quote: Intruder
              I was driving with my family from vacation and could get smeared on the tractor. What stupid person is planning all this?
              purely mild, he drowned at 180 km / h, and then he talks about the family! ??? :) Who prevented you from going 110 or even 90, if you soar about the health of your loved ones, and then the warriors on the tractors prevented you, something does not fit !? :)

              Well, that's 2500 km. go - hold 90? We would have arrived by autumn. laughing
              1. Intruder
                Intruder 11 January 2021 04: 17
                +1
                I understand that it is far away and we need to keep the high-speed mode, but just a statement about the family and possible problems on the road because of the warriors - just a little jarred, no offense or left thoughts !!! Fair...:)
                1. Doliva63
                  Doliva63 11 January 2021 18: 21
                  0
                  Quote: Intruder
                  I understand that it is far away and we need to keep the high-speed mode, but just a statement about the family and possible problems on the road because of the warriors - just a little jarred, no offense or left thoughts !!! Fair...:)

                  I myself am from the "warriors", if that. Could run over a trolleybus with an armored personnel carrier, if necessary. But when it’s about your family, there’s no time for defense! Just kidding, kaneshno drinks
              2. Filxnumx
                Filxnumx 15 January 2021 20: 02
                +1
                Duc for love HOME to come and even though by autumn it is differently better than in five minutes to the nearest POST. And if you want to "drown under 180" everywhere, then buy an airplane.
                1. Doliva63
                  Doliva63 17 January 2021 18: 39
                  0
                  Quote: Fil743
                  Duc for love HOME to come and even though by autumn it is differently better than in five minutes to the nearest POST. And if you want to "drown under 180" everywhere, then buy an airplane.


                  Not everywhere, but where the road allows. There was a limit of 205 km / h on that car. On the next one already 210. I drove around the region in the interests of the cause. I often took a service driver. You sit, sip cognac, watch for a while. Come on, Dana, turn up the gas! We still have to go somewhere else in the cafe ... And the girl drowns the pedal) laughing And the plane is here in flight - there were no landing sites anywhere, not that the thread is more abrupt. So - just a car.
          2. Fan-fan
            Fan-fan 10 January 2021 10: 22
            +2
            "Monsters" with missiles jump out onto the track, jumped and rushed off along the clearing to the left.
            What, even no one blocked the traffic on the highway? Did you just jump out of the clearing onto the track like a bullet and rush off? Yes, you know how to "fill".
            1. Doliva63
              Doliva63 10 January 2021 17: 52
              +3
              Quote: Fan-Fan
              "Monsters" with missiles jump out onto the track, jumped and rushed off along the clearing to the left.
              What, even no one blocked the traffic on the highway? Did you just jump out of the clearing onto the track like a bullet and rush off? Yes, you know how to "fill".

              No one covered anything, that's what we're talking about. I myself served in the Strategic Missile Forces (53rd Army), I was very, to put it mildly, surprised.
              1. Intruder
                Intruder 11 January 2021 04: 19
                0
                I myself served in the Strategic Missile Forces (53rd Army), I was very, to put it mildly, surprised.
                Especially if they served in the same place, as elsewhere, there is elementary razgolding, and what then will be surprised, especially on a general-purpose highway, tea is not a special route and other "secrets" !?
                1. Doliva63
                  Doliva63 11 January 2021 18: 30
                  0
                  Quote: Intruder
                  I myself served in the Strategic Missile Forces (53rd Army), I was very, to put it mildly, surprised.
                  Especially if they served in the same place, as elsewhere, there is elementary razgolding, and what then will be surprised, especially on a general-purpose highway, tea is not a special route and other "secrets" !?

                  You are "nefteme", you are forgiven. In 4 words: it doesn't have to be that way. Dot.
          3. Aag
            Aag 11 January 2021 20: 53
            +2
            Quote: Doliva63
            Quote: SovAr238A
            Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka


            Two years ago I watched how similar "monsters" were put forward to the training ground. Weave them on the rules and on the roads. The column ran into road repairs. I got off at the bend by the road, breaking a sickly undergrowth, walked parallel to the road fifty meters and returned to the roadway.!


            Something you are lying as if you don’t understand who ...

            The Barnaul-Novosib highway is very busy even at night. So in the afternoon, on the border of the regions, next to a town widely known in a narrow circle, I "drown" my 180 km / h, out of the corner of my eye I noticed a movement on the clearing on the right, began to slow down. Managed. "Monsters" with missiles jump out onto the track, jumped and rushed off along the clearing to the left. I got out of the car and smoked. In front and behind - the same smokers walk around cars, relieve stress. Is this normal in your opinion? I was driving with my family from vacation and could get smeared on the tractor. What stupid person is planning all this? So, perhaps, comrade is not lying.

            What do you think, "Topol", "Yars" should make way for you?
            Not specifically to you, (a general tendency), but the theme that the Strategic Missile Forces is our everything, (there is no adequate fleet, SV is for a small number of LANs, etc., but if CHE, we have a vigorous club). Fuck us all !!! Without balanced aircraft, and without mutual understanding!
            In Irkutsk, "Topol", and now "Yarsy", often lock the paths to the city tightly. Sometimes, due to the stupidity of individual ... leaders, sometimes, - technology is technology. Worse, when people do not correspond to the tasks (a brand of our time, - we, for now, tolerate ...) ...
            In our town, like the weather forecast, when the curfew was set up ... Okay, if you are late for work. And if you are on the plane?
      3. Private-K
        Private-K 12 January 2021 10: 28
        +1
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        The column ran into road repairs. I got off the side of the road, breaking a sickly undergrowth, walked parallel to the road for fifty meters and returned to the roadway.

        Those. the rockets bravo worked when the situation "obstacle on the road" / "destruction of the road section" occurred. The commander and others should have received gratitude - the continuity of the movement was ensured.
        Each missile unit with unpaved mobile RK has in its composition engineering subdivisions for traffic support - barriers and track laying. So, movement along the "off-design" sections is still provided.
    2. Tatyana Pershina
      Tatyana Pershina 9 January 2021 07: 17
      26
      .
      Quote: Free Wind
      I wonder why you can't do

      Why, why ... And because from the design environment the 90s "washed" the middle age, which was able to reason with the adventurism inherent in young people, and could already resist the retrograde of old people.
    3. Togilen
      Togilen 9 January 2021 09: 24
      +8
      And you did not think why PU S-400 on semi-trailers with tractors BAZ-6402 began to be massively transplanted to MZKT-543M? There is a 3F30-9 transport and reloading unit, but from the simplest textbooks for vocational schools, you can find out that any car with a trailer or semitrailer is inferior to a single car in cross-country ability and maneuverability. At MZKT 79221, the load is evenly distributed along the axes, at the tractor it will fall on the rear bogie, which will sink first, and the front 4 wheels will "hang" higher and row the air.
      1. merkava-2bet
        merkava-2bet 9 January 2021 15: 33
        +1
        The passive trailer is inferior, but if it is active then not, in the 50-60-70s they were developed and some were adopted by the SA.
        1. Togilen
          Togilen 10 January 2021 08: 13
          +3
          Here is for those who are not at all in the subject apparently. No matter what kind of trailer you have, the mass distribution will be on the bogie of the active trailer and the rear bogie of the tractor. They will fail in the first place. While the front bogie will lose its contact patch and trail the ground to idle. Opening a tutorial on the design of four-wheel drive vehicles and gaining knowledge.
          And here is a video of what happens to the tractor on weak soils. Enjoy.
          1. merkava-2bet
            merkava-2bet 10 January 2021 13: 29
            0
            Looking at this video, tricky questions immediately arise.
            1) Why is the tire pressure not reduced to increase the grip patch?
            2) The tractor transports healthy and heavy crap even without a pushing tractor, and most importantly, on such soils, another tractor is connected in front through the drawbar of the hitch and not a bulldozer, otherwise it will break the cable with all the consequences.
          2. Alexander Vorontsov
            Alexander Vorontsov 10 January 2021 13: 36
            -2
            Quote: Togilen
            Here is for those who are not at all in the subject apparently. No matter what kind of trailer you have, the mass distribution will be on the bogie of the active trailer and the rear bogie of the tractor. They will fail in the first place. While the front bogie will lose its contact patch and trail the ground to idle. Opening a tutorial on the design of four-wheel drive vehicles and gaining knowledge.
            And here is a video of what happens to the tractor on weak soils. Enjoy.

            Yes that's right. And it turns out that with 12 wheels only 4 are actively working, i.e. 1/3.
            At the same time, the load on the CV joints increases dramatically (are there also steering wheels?).

            In the end, everything depends on the adhesion properties of the soil under these unfortunate 4 wheels, although it could be distributed over a three times larger area ...
          3. merkava-2bet
            merkava-2bet 10 January 2021 13: 53
            0
            Since you are talking about textbooks, I offer you our modest library.
            http://militaryrussia.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?f=736&t=3217&sid=be640fbefd82b649dc9e562cc1a468ba#p111540
            1. Togilen
              Togilen 11 January 2021 13: 11
              0
              Oh, well, where do we get to you in the STC ...
          4. t-12
            t-12 10 January 2021 17: 47
            0
            what happens to the tractor on soft soils.
            There are tracked vehicles for low-bearing soils. But this thing in the video should move on a good solid road.
            1. Togilen
              Togilen 11 January 2021 17: 04
              0
              Give an example of such a machine. It will be interesting to read. Maybe Canadian Yamal?
              And then think about why to carry tractors like the Canadian Yamal or our diesel fuel to construction sites (the gp will not go enough) if this KZKT needs to drive 100 meters along the start-up?
        2. Alexander Vorontsov
          Alexander Vorontsov 10 January 2021 13: 28
          0
          Quote: merkava-2bet
          The passive trailer is inferior, but if it is active then not, in the 50-60-70s they were developed and some were adopted by the SA.

          Andrey, I asked you for a reason, how is the torque transmitted to the wheels of a semi-trailer for transporting such goods? This is an important technical issue.
          1. merkava-2bet
            merkava-2bet 10 January 2021 13: 34
            0
            If you are talking about a book, then mechanically or hydraulically, if about modern ones, then electrically, it is simpler and more reliable. In general, read the book.
          2. Vikxnumx
            Vikxnumx 11 January 2021 12: 29
            0
            ZIL-137 (EMNIP) and active trailer ZIL-137b ...
            Hydraulics.
      2. SovAr238A
        SovAr238A 9 January 2021 16: 55
        +1
        Quote: Togilen
        And you did not think why PU S-400 on semi-trailers with tractors BAZ-6402 began to be massively transplanted to MZKT-543M? There is a 3F30-9 transport and reloading unit, but from the simplest textbooks for vocational schools, you can find out that any car with a trailer or semitrailer is inferior to a single car in cross-country ability and maneuverability. At MZKT 79221, the load is evenly distributed along the axes, at the tractor it will fall on the rear bogie, which will sink first, and the front 4 wheels will "hang" higher and row the air.


        Have you ever seen how American drivers transport heavy loads?
        There are types of trailers that lie on the ground for loading and rise within 3-5 minutes - unmeasured ...

        They have this business - trucking - is very common.
        And there are a lot of variations.
        Both SuperHavy and Oversized cargo - travels immeasurably.
        Accordingly, the offers from manufacturing firms are immeasurable ...

        And even wheeled bogies on a trailer can move themselves to redistribute the load - there are such trailers there too ...

        And our drivers and engineers did not even see this and did not think of it ...
        And when I showed them this, they fucked up ..
        1. Togilen
          Togilen 10 January 2021 08: 07
          -4
          Let me tell you a secret, we also have all this in the country. If you are not friends with physics and geometry, TCM, strength of materials - these are not my problems. Then continue showing your neighbors in the parking lot or garage "amazing" videos.
        2. Aag
          Aag 11 January 2021 21: 30
          +1
          Quote: SovAr238A
          Quote: Togilen
          And you did not think why PU S-400 on semi-trailers with tractors BAZ-6402 began to be massively transplanted to MZKT-543M? There is a 3F30-9 transport and reloading unit, but from the simplest textbooks for vocational schools, you can find out that any car with a trailer or semitrailer is inferior to a single car in cross-country ability and maneuverability. At MZKT 79221, the load is evenly distributed along the axes, at the tractor it will fall on the rear bogie, which will sink first, and the front 4 wheels will "hang" higher and row the air.


          Have you ever seen how American drivers transport heavy loads?
          There are types of trailers that lie on the ground for loading and rise within 3-5 minutes - unmeasured ...

          They have this business - trucking - is very common.
          And there are a lot of variations.
          Both SuperHavy and Oversized cargo - travels immeasurably.
          Accordingly, the offers from manufacturing firms are immeasurable ...

          And even wheeled bogies on a trailer can move themselves to redistribute the load - there are such trailers there too ...

          And our drivers and engineers did not even see this and did not think of it ...
          And when I showed them this, they fucked up ..

          In the context of the article under discussion, you propose to "drop" the "load" (rocket) onto the ground! With a bunch of bunkers that provide its functionality? It won't work!
          Sorry to be so harsh to you, hi , I understand that the conversation has shifted to the automotive theme, once again, sorry, I just decided on you .... to concretize it. In terms of a trailer, semi-trailer, "monolith" ...
          Guys! Proceed from the problem! Further, from the conditions of use. (Do not forget to determine the responsible, for the tractor, trailer, "cargo") Has it become clearer?
          Well, obviously, if one tractor can, if necessary, carry a cart of the same type (and if there are several of them in a unit, compound, then there is a maneuver by forces, means ... - good!).
          But if a tractor (carrier) is intended for one (!) Highly specialized task, then it must fully comply with it.
          IMHO: sadly for "Topol", "Yars", these are Minsk products so far.
      3. Intruder
        Intruder 10 January 2021 09: 02
        -3
        in cross-country ability and maneuverability it is inferior to a single car
        and where, he should check this potential cross-country ability, not arrange a rally for the time and speed on the crossed ...!? :) maneuverability is in the same place, and from there "legs" of all other requirements grow, maybe a semi-trailer can be used for such transport platforms it is possible to use a multi-axle frame in general, as a fence option for a complex of the 21st century ??? :)))
        1. Aag
          Aag 11 January 2021 21: 38
          0
          Quote: Intruder
          in cross-country ability and maneuverability it is inferior to a single car
          and where, he should check this potential cross-country ability, not arrange a rally for the time and speed on the crossed ...!? :) maneuverability is in the same place, and from there "legs" of all other requirements grow, maybe a semi-trailer can be used for such transport platforms it is possible to use a multi-axle frame in general, as a fence option for a complex of the 21st century ??? :)))

          You have a poor idea of ​​the areas, the conditions for using the PGRK.
          And the very concept of application.
          A rare case when I can reassure the layman, in this regard, everything is consistent with the goals and objectives. Not without difficulty, of course, but solvable.
    4. merkava-2bet
      merkava-2bet 9 January 2021 14: 20
      11
      Why not, in the USA they made but did not deploy the system.




      And here is an interesting comparison diagram, an on-board container and on a trailer.
      1. SovAr238A
        SovAr238A 9 January 2021 16: 57
        +2
        Quote: merkava-2bet
        Why not, in the USA they made but did not deploy the system.




        It's strange, what kind of "black cloak" gave you a minus for purely technical information?
        What a demon ...
        I also posted similar photos from Wright-Paterson, but then I saw that you were too shy to duplicate ... :)))
    5. Alexander Vorontsov
      Alexander Vorontsov 9 January 2021 14: 38
      +2
      Quote: Free Wind
      I wonder why you can't make a launcher on a semi-trailer?

      In short
      1) this will dramatically reduce off-road capabilities (between the asphalt and the Trophy-Raid of prepared off-road vehicles for survival, there are still gradations of "off-road")
      2) Seriously increases the turning radius, and the car is not small anyway.

      And why do you need an independent suspension, complex, expensive, and there is no sense in it at a speed of 40 km

      Reduce roll, better distribute the load on the frame.
      1. merkava-2bet
        merkava-2bet 9 January 2021 15: 29
        +4
        Firstly, the chassis of the GPRK are not all-terrain vehicles, but move along pre-prepared road routes, or well-packed gravel, but more often reinforced concrete slabs, and they do not storm off-road, because of the high center of gravity, after all, after all, more than 50 tons, 47 tons itself missile not counting TPK and other units.
        It is for a trailer or semi-trailer that the radius is smaller due to the much larger angle of rotation of the tractor itself; moreover, the trailers themselves are equipped with pivoting axles and even leading ones.
        All this was tested, there are many books, one of them "Secret cars of the USSR", and others.
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          Alexander Vorontsov 9 January 2021 20: 54
          +2
          Quote: merkava-2bet
          First, the chassis of the GPRK are not all-terrain vehicles, but move along pre-prepared road routes

          Of course not. I wrote above that I do not understand why such a mania to extremes because between the highway and the fierce off-road there are many gradations of "off-road".

          packed gravel

          As for gravel, my experience of riding dives in Russia, including the Urals ... well, how can you convey the impressions of "packed gravel")))) So that would not violate the rules of the portal by using the most appropriate terms ... in general when during the season the temperature goes through zero 30 times and the water then penetrates into the soil then fidgets tearing it ... well, so-so road)))

          but more often reinforced concrete slabs

          Here is perhaps that on them and ride.


          equipped with pivoting axles and even leading

          Do you mean the wheels on the trailer are driving?
          This changes a lot. And how is the transmission of torque to them carried out?
          1. merkava-2bet
            merkava-2bet 9 January 2021 21: 47
            0
            There is a very interesting book "Secret cars of the Soviet Army", author E. Kochnev. There is a very good description of all work on active trailers and also on the chassis of various missile carriers of the Strategic Missile Forces PGRK, up to the giant on the topic "Celina-2", you will not regret it.
            1. merkava-2bet
              merkava-2bet 9 January 2021 21: 54
              +2
              Here it is, a very interesting series of books.
          2. Free wind
            Free wind 10 January 2021 01: 17
            0
            Hydraulics, hydraulic bridges are standing. They are connected at critical moments .. The tractor has a powerful hydraulic pump, it's cool to watch the trailer kick the tractor out of the mud.
        2. Intruder
          Intruder 10 January 2021 09: 16
          0
          It is for a trailer or semi-trailer that the radius is smaller due to the much larger angle of rotation of the tractor itself
          Namely, I completely agree with you :), but many commentators forget the geometry when turning, and the desire to combine cross-country ability, maneuverability and other "amphibiousness" is not very low in relation to the purpose of the platform itself and its content and restrictions on movement on road surfaces, all the more general use ... versatility is not always appropriate, where it is not needed ...
        3. Skifotavr
          Skifotavr 11 January 2021 01: 34
          0
          Quote: merkava-2bet
          First, the chassis of the GPRK are not all-terrain vehicles, but move along pre-prepared road routes

          You know the theory well, but in practice everything is a little more complicated. wink Not to mention the fact that cars of this purpose should have a healthy supply of maneuverability.
          Quote: merkava-2bet
          It is for a trailer or semi-trailer that the radius is smaller due to the much larger angle of rotation of the tractor itself; moreover, the trailers themselves are equipped with pivoting axles and even leading ones.
          Let's say, but the total length is still prohibitively larger, which imposes significant restrictions on routes, parking lots, etc. with such a length. In addition, on a promising platform (if it is ever finished at all), not only two front pairs will be rotary wheels, but also two rear ones - in this case, the turning radius will already be exactly smaller.
        4. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 11 January 2021 12: 28
          0
          Quote: merkava-2bet
          Firstly, the chassis of the GPRK are not all-terrain vehicles, but move along pre-prepared road routes, or well-packed gravel, but more often reinforced concrete slabs

          Nevertheless, working out the movement on other types of roads (subject to the destruction pre-prepared road network) is carried out regularly.

        5. Aag
          Aag 11 January 2021 21: 43
          0
          Quote: merkava-2bet
          Firstly, the chassis of the GPRK are not all-terrain vehicles, but move along pre-prepared road routes, or well-packed gravel, but more often reinforced concrete slabs, and they do not storm off-road, because of the high center of gravity, after all, after all, more than 50 tons, 47 tons itself missile not counting TPK and other units.
          It is for a trailer or semi-trailer that the radius is smaller due to the much larger angle of rotation of the tractor itself; moreover, the trailers themselves are equipped with pivoting axles and even leading ones.
          All this was tested, there are many books, one of them "Secret cars of the USSR", and others.

          "... It is for a trailer or semi-trailer that the radius is smaller due to the much larger angle of rotation of the tractor itself, moreover, the trailers themselves are equipped with pivoting axles and even leading ones .... '
          What do you mean all this? Aggregates, TPK-all in a bunch ?!
    6. The comment was deleted.
    7. Ml. Sergeant
      Ml. Sergeant 10 January 2021 00: 49
      +1
      I completely agree with you
    8. Intruder
      Intruder 10 January 2021 08: 47
      -3
      And why do you need an independent suspension, complex, expensive, and there is no sense in it at a speed of 40 km, the usual spring balancer is quite sufficient.
      Apparently, an increase in the final cost of the product before the military order! :)))
    9. Bar1
      Bar1 10 January 2021 16: 43
      +4
      The most interesting thing, but did KamAZ take the money? Didn't do anything and of course is not going to return it back. It looks like theft, it is necessary to attract not a military review for review, but to start an investigation.
      In general, a rather nasty situation. There is no engine, no electric motors, the generator is noisy, the lithium batteries look like Chinese ones.
      This is a clear gamble, and even with a criminal overtones.
      1. Kart
        Kart 11 January 2021 11: 45
        -5
        Quote: Bar1
        The most interesting thing, but did KamAZ take the money? Didn't do anything and of course is not going to return it back. It looks like theft, it is necessary to attract not a military review for review, but to start an investigation.

        The most interesting thing is that this is just an article - to create a feeling about everything is gone.
        Quite possibly. that most of what is written is just a lie.
        But you certainly want to believe that.
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 11 January 2021 12: 25
          +2
          Quote: Carte
          Quite possibly. that most of what is written is just a lie

          no, it's all true, if everything was a lie, then this O would have already rolled Poplars.
        2. Aag
          Aag 11 January 2021 21: 52
          +4
          Quote: Carte
          Quote: Bar1
          The most interesting thing, but did KamAZ take the money? Didn't do anything and of course is not going to return it back. It looks like theft, it is necessary to attract not a military review for review, but to start an investigation.

          The most interesting thing is that this is just an article - to create a feeling about everything is gone.
          Quite possibly. that most of what is written is just a lie.
          But you certainly want to believe that.

          Take the trouble to answer, "lie in what? Are you ready to replace MAZs with something like that? Without prejudice to readiness for the Strategic Missile Forces? Or do you have a different task? If in other branches, where I am just a guest, interested, sick, then here, if you please, - to the barrier: try to reassure me that without MAZ the mobile unit of the Strategic Missile Forces will not become stationary !!
    10. Aag
      Aag 11 January 2021 18: 56
      +3
      Quote: Free Wind
      I wonder why you can't make a launcher on a semi-trailer? This long MZKT still cannot move off the road, because it can lead or break the frame, it cannot climb uphill, the middle wheels are hung out, and the load on the front and rear is increased by a factor of 5. The fact that it has a high cross-country ability, well, according to the zvizda, we have a dead donkey that has no analogues in the world. The path of the missile carrier is calculated up to a centimeter, deviation from the route threatens with very large consequences. And why do we need an independent suspension, complicated, expensive, and there is no sense in it at a speed of 40 km, the usual spring balancer is quite sufficient.

      I even find it difficult to answer you - there is a mistake, delusion in each sentence, and excuse me, nonsense ...
      I think if the questions were formulated in a different form, it would be easier for me to answer, if this really interests you. hi
    11. Aag
      Aag 13 January 2021 21: 06
      0
      Quote: Free Wind
      I wonder why you can't make a launcher on a semi-trailer? This long MZKT still cannot move off the road, because it can lead or break the frame, it cannot climb uphill, the middle wheels are hung out, and the load on the front and rear is increased by a factor of 5. The fact that it has a high cross-country ability, well, according to the zvizda, we have a dead donkey that has no analogues in the world. The path of the missile carrier is calculated up to a centimeter, deviation from the route threatens with very large consequences. And why do we need an independent suspension, complicated, expensive, and there is no sense in it at a speed of 40 km, the usual spring balancer is quite sufficient.

      "... why can't we make a launcher on a semi-trailer? ..."
      Meaning? In terms of some interchangeability, -maybe. Real application is difficult to achieve, and most importantly, -the need may arise extremely rarely, and problems will be constant (organizational, technical) ...
      "... This long MZKT still can't leave the road, ..."
      He does this regularly, and this is his advantage.
      "... the frame can lead or break, it cannot climb uphill, the middle wheels are hung out, and the load on the front and rear is increased every 5 times ..."
      The frame works successfully for torsion, bending. I won't tell you the numbers, purely visually, - impressive! About the numbers ... "5 times" - I did not measure, did not count ... I did not violate the operational documentation. 15U168 (MAZ-7917) and without several wheels combat-ready, mobile. Depends on damage, and more on literacy, calculation skills. Documented acceptable. Confirmed in practice.
      "... The path of the missile carrier is calculated up to a centimeter ..."
      Rave ... He is counted along the way. This is his advantage. In his positional area (there is a suspicion that now, and further), his location will be CALCULATED! (And does not count from Glonas or something else), i.e. coordinates a hypothetical launch (with an inertial SPr aiming system, the hit accuracy depends on this).
      "... And what is an independent suspension for, ..."
      Sorry, I don't even know what to cover, or rather, where to start ...
      "... there is no sense with it at a speed of 40 km ..."
      The sense from it is such that in the village, arable land, rushing like a "Volga" in the city ... And it's not about the comfort of the calculation, but about the prevention of unacceptable overloads on solid fuel rocket, giblets of bunkers with electronics, electrics, hydraulics ...
      And on the highway, out of necessity (if you know what it means to move at the end of a motley column, especially a military one) and at 80 km / h with prepared mech-water it came ...
      "... the usual spring balancer is quite sufficient ..."
      Nowhere, and in any way! With such dimensions!
      I have a friend, it's time to visit, a representative of the MZKT in our division. All local MAZs passed through him! Here's to whom! More than 30 years of a man on a business trip!))) How does he only put up with the military? - "stupid and brave "(more often, lately, just stupid) ....
      Happy old holiday, all the best!
  2. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 9 January 2021 05: 48
    +3
    When the brains work for selfish purposes, then any necessary business can be ditched:
    And it will not work out of him, only flour.

    And when, guided by the same thoughts, to break fraternal, economic and production ties, then:
    The result is a paradoxical family of cars.

    Okay, this is in the "not so important" area for the country. Just think - defense industry ... wassat There and with the civilian "Yo-my-mobile" did not work.
    And, take any industry, a strange tendency is emerging: they want the best, but in reality, either the supply of components will be subject to sanctions, then the technology reveals a dual purpose, then people are included in the list of "American outcasts", then the enterprises become non-contractual ...
    Oxymoron. request
    1. Uncle Vanya Susanin
      Uncle Vanya Susanin 9 January 2021 06: 09
      +4
      E-mobile, this is a private project of Prokhorov, what is the state's side?
      1. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 9 January 2021 06: 12
        +2
        Quote: Uncle Vanya Susanin
        the state is what side?

        Dear ... We read the words of the sentences !!!
        Quote: ROSS 42
        Just think - defense industry ... There and with the civilian "Yo-my-mobile" did not work.
        1. Uncle Vanya Susanin
          Uncle Vanya Susanin 9 January 2021 10: 19
          +5
          So I didn't understand your sarcasm at all!
      2. Free wind
        Free wind 9 January 2021 14: 35
        -3
        Both Utin and Edvedev promised full support. Krokhorov drove Utin on an e-mobile, and presented it to the Edvedev, apparently Utin was offended.
      3. Intruder
        Intruder 10 January 2021 09: 18
        0
        This is a private project of Prokhorov, the state is in what side?
        Duc, as elsewhere in similar private projects ..., state participation in the further introduction to the market, albeit an internal one, but the budget money would have been spent! :)
  3. Uncle Vanya Susanin
    Uncle Vanya Susanin 9 January 2021 06: 11
    -6
    "Military Acceptance" is a good program for the younger generation, it does not pretend to be highly analytic, why is this spitting in her direction in this article is not at all clear! request
    1. dauria
      dauria 9 January 2021 07: 09
      33
      Why is this spitting in her direction in this article is not at all clear!

      Yes, this is not a spit in the direction of "Military acceptance". And in the absence of any criticism at all on TV.
      In the USSR, at least there was "Fitil". Yeltsin had Dolls. If it were not for this article, I would not have known that everything is so "wonderful" in this "corner". Well, to check all this information, if objectively. Not special Only in other areas, which are closer, the same problems. Dead end with Il-112, leapfrog with a bunch of shock "assorted" helicopters, ridiculous statements about passenger supersonic, and even on the basis of Tu-160. Feeling that girls-fashion designers are in charge. In addition, they are not responsible for anything. Not with a ruble, not a chair.
      1. Usher
        Usher 9 January 2021 08: 53
        -5
        Quote: dauria
        Why is this spitting in her direction in this article is not at all clear!

        Yes, this is not a spit in the direction of "Military acceptance". And in the absence of any criticism at all on TV.
        In the USSR, at least there was "Fitil". Yeltsin had Dolls. If it were not for this article, I would not have known that everything is so "wonderful" in this "corner". Well, to check all this information, if objectively. Not special Only in other areas, which are closer, the same problems. Dead end with Il-112, leapfrog with a bunch of shock "assorted" helicopters, ridiculous statements about passenger supersonic, and even on the basis of Tu-160. Feeling that girls-fashion designers are in charge. In addition, they are not responsible for anything. Not with a ruble, not a chair.

        What assorted helicopters? Mi-24/35 Mi-28 Ka-52 Mi-8/17 Mi-26 and Ka-29 is it difficult for you to remember? I can barely remember the main performance characteristics, although I'm just sometimes interested in technique. And you say mismatched. India has different colors.
        1. merkava-2bet
          merkava-2bet 9 January 2021 17: 35
          +3
          He had to say about “drums" helicopters, not everyone.
          1. Usher
            Usher 9 January 2021 22: 50
            -4
            Quote: merkava-2bet
            He had to say about “drums" helicopters, not everyone.

            moreover, 3 pieces in total) Mi-24/35 are old ones, which are living out their resource. The Mi-28 are new, and the Ka-52 is for naval paratroopers and as a commander's. Amers also have Apaches and Super Cobras.
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 11 January 2021 12: 36
              +4
              Quote: Usher
              Mi-24/35 are old ones that are living out their resource.

              Mi-35s are just new. They were ordered by Serdyukov, not believing in the quick development of the Ka-52 and Mi-28.
              And he was right - both new cars had to be finished for a long time and dreary. EMNIP, for 2014 serial Ka-52 and Mi-28 could only work with a cannon and bombs. There were problems with the NAR and ATGM even in Torzhok. And the Mi-35 at the same time politely circled overhead in the Crimea. smile
      2. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 9 January 2021 10: 05
        +1
        Yeah. Interesting, necessary and ... sad.
        Maybe I'm not quite in the subject, but as for me, with those cross-country assignments for such "monsters", the MO was a little too clever .....
      3. Uncle Vanya Susanin
        Uncle Vanya Susanin 9 January 2021 10: 31
        0
        Yes, well, in our country, in general, in the media of this criticism, that shoe polish at the shoe polish factory - heaps, and with a great bias towards criticism.
        And the fact that there are many failed projects, yes, but do not forget that they have always been, and in the best Soviet years. Although in those days it was generally not accepted to spread about the failure. By the way, in the west, our "sworn partners" of these failures have a wagon and a small cart, but it is not customary to talk about this with us either, and whoever is not ashamed of this, that Kremlebot and putinoid, are such double standards laughing
        1. Free wind
          Free wind 9 January 2021 14: 56
          +3
          Let's just say that in the West they draw projects, construct at their own expense, here at our expense, and when our money is flying nowhere, and stillborn children, such as an all-terrain vehicle with a diesel locomotive hull, cause only disgust, for what?
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 11 January 2021 12: 41
            +1
            Quote: Free Wind
            Let's just say that in the west, projects are drawn, designed at their own expense

            This is as lucky as anyone. For example, Boeing with the YAL-1 was able to stick to the budget.
          2. Usher
            Usher 12 January 2021 00: 01
            -3
            Quote: Free Wind
            Let's just say that in the West they draw projects, construct at their own expense, here at our expense, and when our money is flying nowhere, and stillborn children, such as an all-terrain vehicle with a diesel locomotive hull, cause only disgust, for what?

            Do not tell my knees))) At your own expense, yeah. Hold your pocket wider. All NATO projects are from the budget. Even the charlatan Musk feeds on the trough.
      4. sedoj
        sedoj 9 January 2021 23: 17
        +2
        Quote: dauria
        In addition, they are not responsible for anything. Not a ruble, not an armchair.

        This is the whole problem. There are many bureaucrats, but there are no people responsible for what they have done (or rather, for what has not been done).
      5. Aag
        Aag 11 January 2021 22: 47
        +2
        Quote: dauria
        Why is this spitting in her direction in this article is not at all clear!

        Yes, this is not a spit in the direction of "Military acceptance". And in the absence of any criticism at all on TV.
        In the USSR, at least there was "Fitil". Yeltsin had Dolls. If it were not for this article, I would not have known that everything is so "wonderful" in this "corner". Well, to check all this information, if objectively. Not special Only in other areas, which are closer, the same problems. Dead end with Il-112, leapfrog with a bunch of shock "assorted" helicopters, ridiculous statements about passenger supersonic, and even on the basis of Tu-160. Feeling that girls-fashion designers are in charge. In addition, they are not responsible for anything. Not with a ruble, not a chair.

        Greetings, colleague! All the best in what has come! And you hoped that this "corner" was some kind of special? It does not happen. In the 90s it worked, - they held back. With work, sweat, sometimes with blood, but, for the most part, in full .Everyone thought, there are strengths !!!
        And I remember how my staffing in the preparation and launch group was 80% for officers, warrant officers, 10% for s / s. When I personally sawed starting batteries (6ST-190) with a bait, so that at least something to digest, revive .. ...
        Yes, God bless him, the past. The present, the future worries (to put it mildly).
        Under this article (bow to the author!) I already wrote, “WELL, THE Strategic Missile Forces should NOT be considered as the main argument in the foreign policy field in isolation from the other components of the Armed Forces! (Intelligence, counterintelligence, engineering, air defense, security, defense ...)
        Sorry, I haven't touched on the specifics of the article itself (or rather, I touched it, - I shouted the post of six sheets, - I flew off my smartphone inadvertently ...)
        So guys, let's do it! - trust in Allah, and tie the camel!
        I mean, I really respect the feelings of members of the forum for the country's defense, but ... Let's do our job .... I agree, the Strategic Missile Forces can solve a number of tasks (but mature people know how this happens).
        Someone has already asked something similar on VO.
        Here, in the new reality, if during the week, "Chersky", suddenly, ... "damaged" "at the mine of the Great Patriotic War" (pah-pah-pah), what? Where to throw nuclear warheads?
        Reassure me, please, if it's not right, if the Russian Federation can block the Baltic from shipping, in its own interests. If it can make economic and financial decisions that enemies are afraid of. Or better yet, the Foreign Ministry will issue a statement that will make everything fade away, calm down, and go to negotiate ...
        1. fabervox
          fabervox Yesterday, 19: 39
          0
          Если повредится "Черский", спотовая цена на газ подымется, если и фортуна повредится, то возможно поставки СПГ в Европу станут выгоднее чем в Азию, ненадолго правда. Если повредится ещё и весь флот Allseas, который мог бы достроить если наплевать на санкции, то вопрос куда кидать ЯБП, будет стоять у всех кто обладает ядерным оружием, за исключением самих США и России, т.к. внутренние рынки этих стран, почти не зависят ни от СПГ, ни от поставок трубопроводного газа в Европу.
          А вот если бы газопровод достроили год назад, то цены на газ были бы такими, что в 20м действительно пришлось бы задумываться о том, куда кидать ЯБП. Вопрос лишь в том случайность это, или столько случайностей не может быть, сколько было с этим проектом. Вон с силой сибири и турецким потоком, почему-то нет множества таких случайностей.
          1. Aag
            Aag Yesterday, 20: 49
            0
            Цитата: fabervox
            Если повредится "Черский", спотовая цена на газ подымется, если и фортуна повредится, то возможно поставки СПГ в Европу станут выгоднее чем в Азию, ненадолго правда. Если повредится ещё и весь флот Allseas, который мог бы достроить если наплевать на санкции, то вопрос куда кидать ЯБП, будет стоять у всех кто обладает ядерным оружием, за исключением самих США и России, т.к. внутренние рынки этих стран, почти не зависят ни от СПГ, ни от поставок трубопроводного газа в Европу.
            А вот если бы газопровод достроили год назад, то цены на газ были бы такими, что в 20м действительно пришлось бы задумываться о том, куда кидать ЯБП. Вопрос лишь в том случайность это, или столько случайностей не может быть, сколько было с этим проектом. Вон с силой сибири и турецким потоком, почему-то нет множества таких случайностей.

            Не спец в этих вопросах...Интуиция подсказывает,что каснется всех.Руководства " Газпрома" в меньшей степени...((..До ЯБП,надеюсь не дойдёт.
            По "Силе Сибири" у части населения(той самой Сибири)тоже ряд непоняток имеется...
    2. Togilen
      Togilen 9 January 2021 09: 09
      +9
      Military acceptance, like the Star itself, is also watched by people at the age of 40 and 60, perhaps some of these viewers are still in their "adolescence". Broadcasts that really criticize the policies of the Russian Federation, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, companies, etc. - NO and never will. We do not count any Rain. The star is needed to show "pink dreams and accomplishments", rain and echo of Moscow in order to arrange the next revolution. As such, there is NO critical thinking either there or there.
      1. Aag
        Aag 11 January 2021 22: 53
        +1
        Quote: Togilen
        Military acceptance, like the Star itself, is also watched by people at the age of 40 and 60, perhaps some of these viewers are still in their "adolescence". Broadcasts that really criticize the policies of the Russian Federation, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, companies, etc. - NO and never will. We do not count any Rain. The star is needed to show "pink dreams and accomplishments", rain and echo of Moscow in order to arrange the next revolution. As such, there is NO critical thinking either there or there.

        What is the age limit for the VO audience? (I'm 54).
        I think about 50% ... Is that bad?
  4. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 January 2021 06: 54
    25
    Thanks to Eugene!
    As for the tractors, the Kurgan residents are truly sorry. The plant was dying long and hard, although it could, with a minimum state order, still retain a minimum of a technological base and people with relevant competencies.
    Just organize a screwdriver assembly of Minsk equipment under a license. And this should have been done back in the late 90s.
    Now it's Bryansk's turn. It is possible that everything will work out in the Anthea corporation, but the lobby of Naberezhnye Chelny still crushes competitors with the help of an administrative resource. Including attracting officials of Tatarstan.
    The author is right "a piece of the military cake is sweet." But the demand for it must be appropriate, there is a result, there is financing - there is no money to return to the budget.
    However, the logistic and finance divisions of the law enforcement agencies are so integrated into the business that a little more and we will observe a direct lobby of our "kshot" interests. In principle, this is tracked by where the generals retire. Many military-industrial complex will be able to outshine the headquarters of the military districts with stars, a galaxy of generals and admirals of retirement age who have been nailed down. Moreover, there are no combat ones on their list, mainly logisticians and staff officers.
    In some cases, there is a conflict of interest.
    Sadness, but let's see what happens to the BAZ. It is sad if he is eaten, or at least bit like the Ural in Miass.
    All the good days!
    1. Arthur 85
      Arthur 85 9 January 2021 08: 03
      +3
      Well, it seems, thu-thu-thu, almost every day these BAZs drive along the track - as I understand it, during the run-in: the tractor itself is purely. (Maybe, of course, they are the same laughing ). And the electric ship is interesting, but in fact it is sensitive to water. I bought myself a fet bike with an electric motor - I have to be careful not to dip it into the swamp (the motor on the hub is quite large).
    2. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 9 January 2021 10: 08
      0
      By the way, I didn't know that he was done. Indeed, the plant could have been saved. Not just possible, but NECESSARY!
      Now I will poke into this sadness those couch patriots who shout about the factories destroyed in the neighborhood.
  5. Xscorpion
    Xscorpion 9 January 2021 07: 00
    +3
    Panic out of the blue. Why did the author decide that the military will have astronomical requirements for KAMAZ? Their task was to make it no worse than Maz. And the panic that a 40-ton missile carrier will turn out is not clear due to the fact that the Mazovsky one weighs 44 tons. The rest of the requirements are also sucked from finger, where did they get the requirements for a power reserve of 1300, when the Maz-79291 has a power reserve of 500? Where are the requirements for ford and speed? So the panic is inflated from scratch, even if they do it slowly. We have 79291% 15. And in the next XNUMX years, if they change anything, it will be the remaining Topol-M on Yarsy, and they have the same chassis. Development is going with an eye to the future, perhaps for a promising Frontier, but the author, as always, has lost everything, since he personally needs it now, and he does not think that at the moment there is no shortage of these machines and there is no need to run ahead of the locomotive.
    1. Usher
      Usher 9 January 2021 08: 56
      -6
      Quote: Xscorpion
      Panic out of the blue. Why did the author decide that the military will have astronomical requirements for KAMAZ? Their task was to make it no worse than Maz. And the panic that a 40-ton missile carrier will turn out is not clear due to the fact that the Mazovsky one weighs 44 tons. The rest of the requirements are also sucked from finger, where did they get the requirements for a power reserve of 1300, when the Maz-79291 has a power reserve of 500? Where are the requirements for ford and speed? So the panic is inflated from scratch, even if they do it slowly. We have 79291% 15. And in the next XNUMX years, if they change anything, it will be the remaining Topol-M on Yarsy, and they have the same chassis. Development is going with an eye to the future, perhaps for a promising Frontier, but the author, as always, has lost everything, since he personally needs it now, and he does not think that at the moment there is no shortage of these machines and there is no need to run ahead of the locomotive.

      Here 80% of the authors are panickers all over the place laughing
      1. Elturisto
        Elturisto 17 January 2021 22: 04
        0
        Not yet there are patriotic mongrels on the payroll ...
    2. Hagen
      Hagen 9 January 2021 13: 27
      +2
      Quote: Xscorpion
      Panic out of the blue.

      This is on almost any topic. It seems that this is the editorial policy. Despite the fact that there is not a single author with a Name, and all the writing is based on the personal opinion of an unknown author. Note, there are no interviews with real specialists and experts. It seems that the editorial staff do not know this genre in principle.
    3. orcinus
      orcinus 9 January 2021 16: 18
      -4
      Development for the future is when there are technically sound and competitive samples today - the VAZ plant, having been making shorts for 60 years, "suddenly" give the tesla to the mountain)
    4. Intruder
      Intruder 10 January 2021 09: 21
      -6
      The rest of the requirements are also sucked from the finger, from where they took the requirements for a power reserve of 1300,
      wet dreams of the English Channel, well, like 5 days and hello Britain :)))
      Development is going with an eye to the future, possibly for a promising Frontier
      and after that they will screw the graffiti and hello to the Rogozinsky trampolines! ??? :)))
      1. Usher
        Usher 18 January 2021 01: 42
        +2
        Quote: Intruder
        The rest of the requirements are also sucked from the finger, from where they took the requirements for a power reserve of 1300,
        wet dreams of the English Channel, well, like 5 days and hello Britain :)))
        Development is going with an eye to the future, possibly for a promising Frontier
        and after that they will screw the graffiti and hello to the Rogozinsky trampolines! ??? :)))

        Do not forget the wet dreams of the Eurapes about the resources of Siberia, if you remember the useless English Channel, which in figs did not give up to anyone.
        1. Intruder
          Intruder 18 January 2021 07: 47
          -1
          do not forget about the resources of Siberia
          , but what should I forget, I lived in it, moreover, for many decades ... Mother Siberia :))), 400 km., from the Mongolian border !!!
          1. Usher
            Usher 18 January 2021 19: 41
            +1
            Quote: Intruder
            do not forget about the resources of Siberia
            , but what should I forget, I lived in it, moreover, for many decades ... Mother Siberia :))), 400 km., from the Mongolian border !!!

            I also live there. If what. And wet dreams of La_manche have nothing to do with it. Historically, Westerners are more coveted.
            1. Intruder
              Intruder 19 January 2021 02: 06
              0
              I also live there. If what
              countryman!? drinks and which area, West / East or south with north ??? "About the English Channel" - this is from the Soviet proverb of the bearded, like (I don't remember exactly ...): "... 5 hours, and hello to the English Channel !!!" exactly in the area, throwing to the shores of the strait by formations of Soviet armored vehicles ... :)
              (The GSGV, which had (since 1948) in its composition the 4th mechanized armies, with a total number of 8 tank and 7 mechanized divisions and 2 shock armies, with a total number of 1 tank and 5 mechanized divisions, the total number of GSGV troops was approaching 9 tank and 12 mechanized divisions. The staff strength of the GSGV was about 280000 people ...) is that more understandable, I hope? :)
    5. Aag
      Aag 11 January 2021 23: 04
      0
      Quote: Xscorpion
      Panic out of the blue. Why did the author decide that the military will have astronomical requirements for KAMAZ? Their task was to make it no worse than Maz. And the panic that a 40-ton missile carrier will turn out is not clear due to the fact that the Mazovsky one weighs 44 tons. The rest of the requirements are also sucked from finger, where did they get the requirements for a power reserve of 1300, when the Maz-79291 has a power reserve of 500? Where are the requirements for ford and speed? So the panic is inflated from scratch, even if they do it slowly. We have 79291% 15. And in the next XNUMX years, if they change anything, it will be the remaining Topol-M on Yarsy, and they have the same chassis. Development is going with an eye to the future, perhaps for a promising Frontier, but the author, as always, has lost everything, since he personally needs it now, and he does not think that at the moment there is no shortage of these machines and there is no need to run ahead of the locomotive.

      The electric ship does not channel (will you argue?).
      1.What ICE, whose, where to produce?
      2.AT (automatic transmission) -similar ...
      3.
      The rest, I think, is quite solvable ..
      As well as the first two. With a sincere desire ...
  6. Konnick
    Konnick 9 January 2021 07: 41
    +7
    Quote: Free Wind
    why do you need an independent suspension, complex, expensive and there is no sense in it at a speed of 40 km, the usual spring balancer is quite sufficient.

    The independent suspension lowers the loading height and center of gravity. There are no suspension moves, all the photos are in motion on a table-like surface. This is a problem for multi-axle tractors.
    While in Ostrogozhsk, military unit 20115, in the distant 80s, I watched like a polygon, and there a polygon with good elevation differences, the newest Kurgan two-section transporter is moving ... which in 2015 was presented as the latest development, all the same on the podium of Red Square stupid, will not understand.
    All of these latest projects have their origins in Soviet design bureaus, ranging from a reckless tank to a nuclear cruise missile engine. Only the generation of designers has changed for the worse. A modern designer is fluent in designing with the help of computer programs, but by myself I will say that part of the brain's work is spent on a program and there is no direct connection from head to hand. The designer turns into a 3D draftsman, but we also need the experience of generations and clever thoughts.
    So there are such adventurous projects like the Yo mobile with its rotary vane engine and Prokhorov who does not understand anything - a classic example.
    1. Free wind
      Free wind 9 January 2021 08: 32
      14 th
      The suspension does not affect the height in any way, take Tatra and Kamaz. And the mausoleum at parades is hammered with plywood, some will score points. as if the spirit of I.V. Stalin did not rise from the grave.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 9 January 2021 08: 41
        +6
        The Tatra has swinging axle shafts on torsion bars, and in the center the bearing tube with a universal joint is not a classic independent suspension, but it also allowed to increase the ground clearance and lower the CG, the Tatra has an order of magnitude better cross-country ability than the KAMAZ. On MZKT tractors, there is a classic double wishbone independent suspension on torsion bars. This suspension allows you to lower the CG of any vehicle while maintaining ground clearance. And the use of a 4-axle KamAZ as a chassis of the Pantsir did not lead to anything good.
        1. Usher
          Usher 9 January 2021 08: 55
          -6
          Quote: Konnick
          The Tatra has swinging axle shafts on torsion bars, and in the center the bearing tube with a universal joint is not a classic independent suspension, but it also allowed to increase the ground clearance and lower the CG, the Tatra has an order of magnitude better cross-country ability than the KAMAZ. On MZKT tractors, there is a classic double wishbone independent suspension on torsion bars. This suspension allows you to lower the CG of any vehicle while maintaining ground clearance. And the use of a 4-axle KamAZ as a chassis of the Pantsir did not lead to anything good.

          And where to stick the Carapace?
          1. Konnick
            Konnick 9 January 2021 09: 03
            +5
            As for the chassis of the Carapace, the protection of stationary objects is still suitable, and then with restrictions on transportation, but for escorting mobile military units there is no. The permeability and dimensions must correspond to the equipment they are to protect. The BAZ platform is better suited for this. At one time I rode a ZIL-135 with a fiberglass cabin, it was a cool car. Less overall than MAZ-537 and MAZ-543, which I had the pleasure of driving. Rough terrain can be driven as fast as a good road. No jeep compares to a smooth ride.
            1. The leader of the Redskins
              The leader of the Redskins 9 January 2021 10: 11
              0
              The simplest example - a "shell" based on MAN can fire on the move, on the basis of "KamAZ" - no!
            2. merkava-2bet
              merkava-2bet 9 January 2021 18: 15
              0
              Regarding the ZIL-135, I myself saw but did not go, in versions of the MLRS Uragan and TRK Luna-M, the legacy of the Afghan war. It was very voracious, gasoline engines were very hot in hot conditions, and in Afghanistan there are still high mountains, on the 2nd and 3rd bridge cracks on the frame, examined all eight cars, at all. The veteran drivers themselves said that it was a very capricious and dangerous car, it was dangerous to go over 30 km / h with a full load, it jumps like a goat, suspension features, or rather the absence on 2 and 3 axles. But they loved the MAZ-537 and MAZ-543 tank tractors with the Elbrus OTRK, aka SKAD.
            3. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 11 January 2021 12: 51
              +1
              Quote: Konnick
              As for the chassis of the Carapace, the guard of stationary objects is still suitable, and then with restrictions on transportation, but for escorting mobile military units there is no.

              So "Pantsir" was originally made for the air defense of the Aerospace Forces - for the defense of stationary objects and positions of the air defense missile system DD. It was then that the army team began to make claims - they say the complex, for some reason, does not meet the requirements of the air defense of the ground. Duc ... what they wrote down in the TK - they got it.
        2. Free wind
          Free wind 9 January 2021 10: 01
          0
          From what cabbage soup did the Tatra have torsion bars? Springs from the rear, the front end on springs, then pneumatic balloons appeared, with adjustable ground clearance. A good machine is only very expensive, two times more expensive than the same Magirus FRGeshny. now the plant is on fire.
        3. Aag
          Aag 11 January 2021 23: 10
          0
          Quote: Konnick
          The Tatra has swinging axle shafts on torsion bars, and in the center the bearing tube with a universal joint is not a classic independent suspension, but it also allowed to increase the ground clearance and lower the CG, the Tatra has an order of magnitude better cross-country ability than the KAMAZ. On MZKT tractors, there is a classic double wishbone independent suspension on torsion bars. This suspension allows you to lower the CG of any vehicle while maintaining ground clearance. And the use of a 4-axle KamAZ as a chassis of the Pantsir did not lead to anything good.

          EMNIP: a row of "Tatras" has a backbone frame. That does not cancel your theses, but requires taking into account this nuance ...
    2. Narak-zempo
      Narak-zempo 9 January 2021 09: 53
      -2
      Quote: Konnick
      So there are such adventurous projects like the Yo mobile with its rotary vane engine and Prokhorov who does not understand anything - a classic example.

      Why are you hanging on to the Yo-mobile?
      I bought myself another from the installation batch. 9 years went without serious damage, consumption of 4,5 per hundred in the city.
      Now I switched to "Tesla", I gave it to my wife.
      1. Aag
        Aag 11 January 2021 23: 11
        +1
        Quote: Narak-zempo
        Quote: Konnick
        So there are such adventurous projects like the Yo mobile with its rotary vane engine and Prokhorov who does not understand anything - a classic example.

        Why are you hanging on to the Yo-mobile?
        I bought myself another from the installation batch. 9 years went without serious damage, consumption of 4,5 per hundred in the city.
        Now I switched to "Tesla", I gave it to my wife.

        Funny ...
        1. Narak-zempo
          Narak-zempo 11 January 2021 23: 13
          0
          Quote: AAG
          Funny ...

          Laughing for no reason is a sign you know who.
          1. Aag
            Aag 11 January 2021 23: 20
            0
            Quote: Narak-zempo
            Quote: AAG
            Funny ...

            Laughing for no reason is a sign you know who.

            At least, as for the article under discussion ... Agree, it's funny: "I didn't like the tractor (ICBM carriers, I gave it to my wife) .. Don't you think?
            In terms of operation, if not difficult, can I contact?
            1. Narak-zempo
              Narak-zempo 12 January 2021 09: 31
              0
              What does the tractor have to do with it?
              In the comment, Yo-mobile was mentioned - also in the context of a failed project. Like, they don't know how to do anything worthwhile in our country and in civilian life.
              I wrote about him.
    3. Free wind
      Free wind 9 January 2021 19: 23
      -1
      We promised Prokhorov to bring the car to condition, and, as always, they put everything in the ass. We have never done anything good. and gobbled up billions of money, the professors are smelly.
    4. Intruder
      Intruder 10 January 2021 09: 25
      0
      type Yo mobile with its rotary vane engine and understanding nothing Prokhorov - a classic example.
      Well, why do you remember that guy !? :))) Well, I could not sit down on budget investments, with everyone maybe .., and only Mazda has mastered rotary internal combustion engines in the production of sports cars, even the Le Mans race (in 1991 Mazda 787B won the overall 24 Hours of Le Mans, becoming the first and last triumphant to bet on an engine of this design) won in its time and to everyone's surprise!
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 10 January 2021 17: 32
        +2
        Rotary two-section engines were made in a small series for VAZ, in the 70s, in Dimitrovgrad, I think, I had the good fortune to ride once as a passenger in childhood, after a competition in high-speed maneuvering. And they tried to make a rotary-VANE engine for her mobile under a patent of some of our inventors. An absolutely impossible design.
        1. Intruder
          Intruder 11 January 2021 04: 21
          0
          well, just took an affordable invention and tried to sniff it, like everywhere else on the wow effect ??? And then the realization just came that
          An absolutely unworkable design.
          even with the so-called effective managers, which cannot be realized even with tons of rubles in your pocket !!!
          1. Aag
            Aag 11 January 2021 23: 29
            +1
            Quote: Intruder
            well, just took an affordable invention and tried to sniff it, like everywhere else on the wow effect ??? And then the realization just came that
            An absolutely unworkable design.
            even with the so-called effective managers, which cannot be realized even with tons of rubles in your pocket !!!

            Quite a widespread series was in the KGB, the Ministry of Internal Affairs (see the magazine, "Behind the Wheel") VAZ-21018 (if I have not forgotten). Like, there was also a GAZ.
            Please, be more attentive, more respectful to previous generations. Or do you think that only you have descended to such an understanding of life?
            1. Konnick
              Konnick 12 January 2021 00: 16
              0
              Take a closer look at the yo-mobile, they did not want to use the Wankel rotary engine, but their own Vigriyanov rotary-blade engine. Pay attention again.
              1. Aag
                Aag 12 January 2021 02: 55
                +1
                Quote: Konnick
                Take a closer look at the yo-mobile, they did not want to use the Wankel rotary engine, but their own Vigriyanov rotary-blade engine. Pay attention again.

                I'm not talking about him (e-mobile), but about the rotary ... hi
    5. Siberian54
      Siberian54 12 January 2021 15: 51
      0
      The nuclear engine is still Stalinist times .. Nikitka in 57 transferred 70% of the funding from this project to "blue" or "storm" I do not remember exactly and after 65 years received the device (the State Department in 1959 closed the financing of a similar project, completely out of order execution time)
  7. Konnick
    Konnick 9 January 2021 07: 44
    +5
    Quote: Uncle Vanya Susanin
    "Military Acceptance" is a good program for the younger generation, it does not pretend to be highly analytic, why is this spitting in her direction in this article is not at all clear! request

    You're right, absolutely propaganda for the immature minds of teenage shooters. But the older generation also takes this bait.
    1. Uncle Vanya Susanin
      Uncle Vanya Susanin 9 January 2021 11: 25
      0
      If the older generation has not developed critical thinking by its age, then let it look better at "military acceptance" than do not understand that through other channels, it will be more whole!
      1. John22
        John22 9 January 2021 12: 30
        +3
        The Military Acceptance program provides at least some information about military equipment. This is better than complete secrecy in the USSR. And you must always think with your head, even when you are at the top of power.
  8. Konnick
    Konnick 9 January 2021 08: 05
    +6
    Such serious developments also require serious time, and when the designers tell us we need 5 years, the "defective" manager says that a year is enough for you. Well, as a result, no result. Remember Armata, they have not yet begun to design it, and the managers have already begun to boast of fantastic performance characteristics, respectively, driving the designers, and the designer is a man of fine organization of labor, he can quietly strike back, still the manager does not understand a fig, especially the designer himself, understanding utopianism concept, does not really apply his knowledge and skills to the project. Well, it's not possible to do something so quickly.
  9. Konnick
    Konnick 9 January 2021 08: 43
    -2
    Quote: Free Wind
    The suspension does not affect the height in any way, take Tatra and Kamaz. And the mausoleum at parades is hammered with plywood, some will score points. as if the spirit of I.V. Stalin did not rise from the grave.

    Imagine a passenger car body of a modern car on bridges with springs, except for the UAZ it does not work. With the same ground clearance, the Niva is 400 mm lower than the UAZ. Well, the frame takes 200 millimeters, but what else?
    1. Free wind
      Free wind 9 January 2021 09: 37
      +2
      And what is there to imagine, cruisers, patrols, high luxes, land rovers, etc. bridges are standing. Moreover, there are springs. Most cars have a beam from the rear, it is simpler and more reliable, and the camber does not need to be adjusted, and not all car services have stands for rear independent suspension. By the way, on the Voghs, Moskvichs, Chaikas, there are bridges on springs from the rear, and it seems like lower UAZs.
      1. Aag
        Aag 12 January 2021 00: 01
        0
        Quote: Free Wind
        And what is there to imagine, cruisers, patrols, high luxes, land rovers, etc. bridges are standing. Moreover, there are springs. Most cars have a beam from the rear, it is simpler and more reliable, and the camber does not need to be adjusted, and not all car services have stands for rear independent suspension. By the way, on the Voghs, Moskvichs, Chaikas, there are bridges on springs from the rear, and it seems like lower UAZs.

        What are you talking about? What springs ?! Scale (weight, overall) can you imagine?
        Not evil, no, buy a model of "Poplar" from "Zvezda" (scale 1:72 art5003), assemble at least a frame. Even without delving into the hydro-pneumo-hydraulic torsion bar suspension, an abundance of steering rods, 18 cardan shafts ... You will understand that there the designer was not eating cabbage soup.
        On the other hand, I do not see any serious obstacles to make it impossible to reproduce the RF if desired! ...
    2. The comment was deleted.
  10. Togilen
    Togilen 9 January 2021 09: 03
    12
    There is no competition between BAZ and KAMAZ in this area. Machines of the Voshchina-1 family are not designed for such a carrying capacity even with a similar number of axles. BAZ at one time, when developing the main gear for Voshchina, which had a higher carrying capacity than the Osnova and others machines, took advantage of the developments of the Rockwell company. In this, again, I see nothing wrong. Cars of the Voshchina-2 family, like the R&D "Natural" in 2008 (just at that time they opened R&D Platform, and in 2010 they opened R&D Platform-O) and all the money was thrown into the creation of "this", KAMAZ had indirect relationship, most of the work was carried out at the Moscow State Technical University. Bauman (at one time they calculated armored vehicles for Shot, then he wore the BPM-97 index). In Bryansk, an electric ship created during the research work "Polupar-1" has already been rolling (not to be confused with the research work Polupar for KZKT). To decide on equipping a new chassis with a domestic engine, KAMAZ PJSC acquired a controlling stake in OJSC TMZ (in 2016 they bought 32,48%, bringing their stake to 50,65%), where, in addition to the promising TMZ-880 engine, the V12 engine family was also developed (see tables). Let me remind you that TMZ participated in the tender for R&D "Chaika / Universal"

    , but the Universal began to be carried out by NAMI, and the ChTZ-Uraltrak Chaika (both development projects, as we know, did not receive). At TMZ they built and tested the 880 engine, but after the actual closure of the R&D Platform / Compressor TMZ became essentially an unnecessary appendage of KAMAZ, in the modular housing which was previously occupied by PSM (diesel generators), LLC Kamaz Veichai was created for screwdriver assembly of engines of the family Baudouin.
    P.S. For the author. KAMAZ (and in fact, made in the Russian Federation) wanted to buy MAZ (there is also MZKT) back in 2006, then in 2008 (then part of the state-owned companies of the Republic of Belarus was subject to privatization, but RUE MAZ did not enter it), then an attempt in 2010, and in 2004, about 300 KAMAZ-740.50-360 / 740.52 engines were supplied to MAZ, but this topic was not further developed, as were attempts to buy MAZ with MZKT. As a matter of fact, serious thoughts about buying MAZ were born after the first "Maidan" in 2004. Therefore, we opened the R&D "Platform", realizing that nothing really will come of Lukashenka. Only now they gave this research to the wrong one. At that time, KZKT was still operating (the only one in the Russian Federation that produced GMF for the SCS).
  11. Narak-zempo
    Narak-zempo 9 January 2021 09: 33
    10 th
    Now I understand why they always talk about "alarmists and traitors" together, and they don't really understand which of them is who.
    The authors of the all-out articles are just such alarmists and traitors who create defeatism.
    Only it is not clear why the administration of the VO condones them?
    1. Soko
      Soko 9 January 2021 13: 47
      21
      Quote: Narak-zempo
      The authors of all the popular articles are just such alarmists and traitors who create defeatism.

      That's right, we will shower them all with hats. Urrraaaaa!
      And if on the topic, then the whole mess from lack of responsibility - they are not afraid to steal and lie.
      1. Usher
        Usher 12 January 2021 00: 05
        -4
        Quote: Soko
        Quote: Narak-zempo
        The authors of all the popular articles are just such alarmists and traitors who create defeatism.

        That's right, we will shower them all with hats. Urrraaaaa!
        And if on the topic, then the whole mess from lack of responsibility - they are not afraid to steal and lie.

        These are different topics, corruption and all-pervading. Don't you feel what? It's about trucks, not driving.
  12. Konnick
    Konnick 9 January 2021 09: 34
    +3
    Quote: Tatiana Pershina
    the adventurism inherent in young people could already withstand the retrograde of the elderly.

    To the point.
  13. Fitter65
    Fitter65 9 January 2021 09: 59
    +2
    KZKT (Kurgan Wheel Tractor Plant named after D.M. Karbyshev). But at the time of the announcement of the competition, the enterprise, unique for Russia, was already on its way. And in 2011 it ingloriously closed due to bankruptcy.
    Or maybe the opposite is very nice for someone?
  14. prior
    prior 9 January 2021 11: 06
    -3
    "Electric ship "Platform-O" - the main failure of the Russian military automotive industry"

    Well, why only failure?
    This is also a huge success for "effective managers". So much dough was cut!
    1. Reader 2013
      Reader 2013 9 January 2021 19: 21
      -1
      There was already such a funny car in the USSR based on a diesel locomotive here is the link
      https://quto.ru/journal/autorambler/tayna-mashki-zachem-v-sssr-sozdali-teplovoz-vnedorozhnik.htm
  15. Konnick
    Konnick 9 January 2021 11: 44
    -1
    The military from the 21st Research Institute demanded that the mass should not exceed 60 kg. But in the end, KAMAZ employees provided 300-kilogram prototypes.

    It turns out a wheel with a built-in electric motor, is this how to change it or did they make a separate external disk?
  16. Aaleks1974
    Aaleks1974 9 January 2021 12: 05
    +9
    By the way, I liked the Wishlist in TTZ, especially about 60kg, for an engine with a capacity of about 60-100kW, when a stationary 75 kilowatt, which does not need to be dipped in water and constantly shaking, weighs about 700kg !? A 1200 km course? And how many guards do the escort vehicles have?
    1. Reader 2013
      Reader 2013 9 January 2021 19: 05
      -2
      so there was already such a funny car in the 60s, there was also a cabin from a diesel locomotive, it did not work then, now the truth is in some game, but I found a link
      https://quto.ru/journal/autorambler/tayna-mashki-zachem-v-sssr-sozdali-teplovoz-vnedorozhnik.htm
  17. Gunter prereen
    Gunter prereen 9 January 2021 12: 22
    +2
    The development of such a vehicle is a long and difficult process. There are a lot of sour creamy-blooded patriots who hoot about the failures of platform 0. It makes no sense to remind them that MZKT cars were developed in the USSR and by the Soviet scientific and design school. Ten years to develop such a vehicle is not a time limit. But you need to work in this direction, one way or another. Well, the engineering industry of the Lithuanians will be destroyed. Not long left. However, there is a road for him.
    1. Narak-zempo
      Narak-zempo 9 January 2021 15: 36
      -6
      Quote: Gunter Preen
      Well, the engineering industry of the Lithuanians will be destroyed. Not long left. However, there is a road for him.

      That's right, there is a road. Enough to feed the bulbs!
      1. Vikxnumx
        Vikxnumx 11 January 2021 12: 41
        -2
        That's right, there is a road. Enough to feed the bulbs!

        Make your tractor first ...
        1. Narak-zempo
          Narak-zempo 11 January 2021 12: 55
          -3
          Quote: VIK1711
          Make your tractor first ...

          K-744R is not a tractor, in your opinion?
          Canada, by the way, buys.
          You have no similar ones in Bulbostan.
          1. Vikxnumx
            Vikxnumx 11 January 2021 15: 20
            +1
            K-744R is not a tractor, in your opinion?
            Canada, by the way, buys.
            You have no similar ones in Bulbostan.

            And from what purkua did you decide that I am with RB?
            The Stavropol Territory is our Motherland!
            How many K-744R modifications of all modifications are produced per year?
            If a total of 2019 tractors were produced in the Russian Federation in 6900 ...
    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 9 January 2021 18: 08
      +2
      Quote: Gunter Preen
      The development of such a vehicle is a long and difficult process.

      And who is arguing about this? Nefig fantastic projects for the real issue.
      Quote: Gunter Preen
      Well, the engineering industry of the Lithuanians will be destroyed. Not long left. However, there is a road for him.

      So the development of ours will take a long time, and the destruction of the neighboring engineering industry will not take long? Is it necessary to blow it up?
      1. Gunter prereen
        Gunter prereen 10 January 2021 13: 52
        -1
        Fantastic spotlights are the spirit of the times. "Effective managers", now you can't get away from them. And about "blow up". All this will be done without us. Under the slogan "we are peaceful Lithuanians for peace", this production will be destroyed first of all.
  18. Konnick
    Konnick 9 January 2021 12: 42
    -1
    Quote: Free Wind
    And what is there to imagine, cruisers, patrols, high luxes, land rovers, etc. bridges are standing. Moreover, there are springs. Most cars have a beam from the rear, it is simpler and more reliable, and the camber does not need to be adjusted, and not all car services have stands for rear independent suspension. By the way, on the Voghs, Moskvichs, Chaikas, there are bridges on springs from the rear, and it seems like lower UAZs.

    Thank you, cap) I didn't know that wassat
    1. Free wind
      Free wind 9 January 2021 15: 10
      0
      Well, so is ours with a brush wassat
  19. John22
    John22 9 January 2021 12: 48
    -1
    Showy tenders are always evil. It is necessary to hold contests and choose the best of existing or projects or layouts or working samples. This was the case in the USSR before. as an example: they made, in the likeness of the Hummers, 2-axle BA Tigers and similar heavy ones, and now they are surprised that with passability in practice ... oops. But back in the USSR there were developments of 3-axle (equidistant axles) off-road vehicles, but all this has been forgotten. And the young people, probably, did not know. This is all insulting and sad. For example, from the age of 10 (early 60s) I already believed that a military vehicle should be armored. Not necessarily BA, etc. Even transport. At least partially. But in reality, it was only in the late 80s that the Armed Forces leadership (after Afgan) understood this. And so in any business.
    1. cat Rusich
      cat Rusich 9 January 2021 15: 02
      +1
      Quote: John22
      But back in the USSR there were developments of 3-axle (equidistant axles) off-road vehicles, but all this has been forgotten. And the young people, probably, did not know. ...
      btr-e152v
      Btr-E152V.
      It was developed in 1957-58, 2 pieces were produced ... soldier
      1. Togilen
        Togilen 15 January 2021 22: 08
        0
        Then you need to remember the ZIL-134 8x8 with an experimental V12 of 240 hp. which were easy to compete with tracked tractors. Thanks to Andrey Dmitrievich Grachev
    2. Ugochaves
      Ugochaves 9 January 2021 16: 23
      +4
      If you have ridden through the taiga at least once, jump from the three-axle without looking back. lol
      1. John22
        John22 10 January 2021 17: 24
        0
        From this place in more detail! The conversation was about BA Tigris in Syria with its sands and mud.
  20. Hagen
    Hagen 9 January 2021 13: 11
    +8
    According to some reports, it was decided to abandon the motor-wheels.

    This mention of "some data" ruins the entire resource. People sit and pick from the network what someone else launched into the network. Is KAMAZ on the edge of geography? It is impossible to get there and is interested in interviewing ts. "first-hand"? Honestly, if it were not for the comments, I would have stopped reading this tasteless "chaff". Some speculations, born without leaving the office ... And so, in fact, on all topics. request
    1. Usher
      Usher 12 January 2021 00: 07
      -2
      Quote: Hagen
      According to some reports, it was decided to abandon the motor-wheels.

      This mention of "some data" ruins the entire resource. People sit and pick from the network what someone else launched into the network. Is KAMAZ on the edge of geography? It is impossible to get there and is interested in interviewing ts. "first-hand"? Honestly, if it were not for the comments, I would have stopped reading this tasteless "chaff". Some speculations, born without leaving the office ... And so, in fact, on all topics. request

      I agree, a homebrew journalist.
  21. xomaNN
    xomaNN 9 January 2021 13: 21
    0
    But now, when But Father has an "awkward" situation, why not buy out the Minsk MZKT in exchange for loans? With ready-made technologies and competencies? And permanently solve the problem of "centipedes"
    1. Sergey Kulikov_3
      Sergey Kulikov_3 9 January 2021 15: 18
      +1
      You have to do your own thing and not pay attention to the articles from "sofas" about failures. The road will be mastered by the walking one.
    2. Free wind
      Free wind 9 January 2021 15: 34
      -2
      But bam, what kind of creature is this?
    3. Narak-zempo
      Narak-zempo 9 January 2021 15: 37
      -3
      Quote: xomaNN
      But now, when But Father has an "awkward" situation, why not buy out the Minsk MZKT in exchange for loans? With ready-made technologies and competencies? And permanently solve the problem of "centipedes"

      Why buy if you can and should take it for free?
    4. Winnie76
      Winnie76 9 January 2021 15: 59
      0
      Quote: xomaNN
      Why not buy out the Minsk MZKT in exchange for loans?

      And then they will "go to Europe." People must be lured away, jobs must be created for them
  22. Soko
    Soko 9 January 2021 13: 45
    21
    The automobile plant in Naberezhnye Chelny has never done anything like this and suddenly became the lead developer of the most complex heavy multi-wheeled vehicles
    It is not clear only why create internal competition with domestic BAZs?

    Apparently, KamAZ has a very powerful lobby
    1. agond
      agond 9 January 2021 16: 00
      0
      If possible, short circuits when water falls into the engine, so this is not a question, the motors will be brushless, and then I think they with gearboxes must have some kind of cooling system, for example, compressed air will both cool the windings and create back pressure inside.
      1. Pandiurin
        Pandiurin 9 January 2021 20: 50
        +1
        Quote: agond
        If possible, short circuits when water falls into the engine, so this is not a question, the motors will be brushless, and then I think they with gearboxes must have some kind of cooling system, for example, compressed air will both cool the windings and create back pressure inside.


        Why a reducer?
        The electric motor is directly driven to the wheel, located in the wheel hub.
  23. Bolo
    Bolo 9 January 2021 16: 10
    -3
    Sabotage? Stupidity? Greed?
    1. d4rkmesa
      d4rkmesa 9 January 2021 16: 49
      -3
      "Well, I didn't, I didn't!" (from)
  24. d4rkmesa
    d4rkmesa 9 January 2021 16: 53
    -4
    Utopia in our conditions. And it is not necessary, the equipment should move predictably, and not turn, performing parallel parking with minimal maneuver. And then, God forbid, they will crush any conscript with such maneuvers. The attitude towards KAMAZ is negative, but in this case they did the maximum they could.
  25. Old26
    Old26 9 January 2021 16: 55
    +3
    In this case, the matter is not limited only to equipment for the Strategic Missile Forces. Air defense systems S-400, Buk-2M, heavy multiple launch rocket systems "Smerch", tactical missile systems "Iskander-M", "Bal" and "Bastion" depend on the supply of equipment from the Minsk Wheel Tractor Plant (MZKT).

    Well, actually, "Buk-M2" was and is being produced on a tracked chassis, manufactured in Mytishchi. And everything else. Nobody canceled lobbying here. And the higher the participants in this lobbying, the more deplorable the results can be. By the way, the S-400 has options for launchers 5P85T2 (towed) and 5P90S (self-propelled) produced by the Bryansk Automobile Plant. In addition, lobbying for electric transmission led to the fact that we do not currently have a chassis on the "Platform" for missile systems. According to experts, an electric transmission and a motor-wheel are not for military equipment operating in extreme conditions.

    Quote: Free Wind
    I wonder why you can't make a launcher on a semi-trailer? This long MZKT still cannot move off the road, because the frame can lead or break, it cannot climb


    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Quote: Free Wind
    I wonder why you can't make a launcher on a semi-trailer? This long MZKT still cannot move off the road, because the frame can lead or break, it cannot climb uphill, the middle wheels are hung out, and the load on the front and rear is increased by 5 times.


    ... I'm afraid it won't fuse with a semitrailer - missiles "don't bend" On the other hand, the use of semitrailers will lead to an increase in the length of the road train. And all the same it will be necessary to give birth to all-wheel drive. This is not a trivial task for the railway, but road transport. To be honest, I doubt it. If only within the Moscow Ring Road! Okay, just kidding !!!

    Dear Alexander and Vladislav! That the chassis (MAZ / MZKT or BAZ), that active semitrailers (in particular BAZ) can move over rough terrain. In addition, there is a launcher with an active semitrailer 5P82T2, and a self-propelled 5P90S. True, Toburetkin hacked them to death. And so long ago they would have had their own BAZ chassis. Alas. Lobbying is ineradicable.

    Quote: Tatyana Pershina
    .
    Quote: Free Wind
    I wonder why you can't do

    Why, why ... And because from the design environment the 90s "washed" the middle age, which was able to reason with the adventurism inherent in young people, and could already resist the retrograde of old people.

    Yes, there is the right chassis. Both self-propelled and active semi-trailer with a tractor unit. Only a political decision is needed. And these chassis were made not in Soviet times, but in 2010-2011.
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 10 January 2021 09: 18
      0
      Quote: Old26
      According to experts, an electric transmission and a motor-wheel are not for military equipment operating in extreme conditions.
      You just need to add perhaps и at this stage of development... Moreover, there is no equal sign between the electric transmission and the motor-wheel.
    2. Aag
      Aag 13 January 2021 17: 16
      0
      "... there is the necessary chassis. Both a self-propelled and an active semi-trailer with a tractor. Only a political decision is needed ..."
      Dear colleague! (With the old new!))) Well, just not for "Yars" ("Topol-M")!
    3. Aag
      Aag 13 January 2021 17: 56
      0
      Resolve the question, it seems to me that you are closer to the topic: in the photo to the article, you are not confused by the openly power space frame on top of the chassis? In reality, how will it be? eightoske ("Yars"), I dare to assure that suspended bunkers, TPK (naturally) are not load-bearing elements of the chassis structure. even without a payload, is the chassis viable?
      How the torsion frame works, the bending on the MAZ 7917 I know not by hearsay. hi
  26. VLADIMIR VLADIVOSTOK
    VLADIMIR VLADIVOSTOK 9 January 2021 17: 25
    -2
    No, it's time to do nationalization! And then the army will be a demanded PMC!
  27. APASUS
    APASUS 9 January 2021 18: 17
    +2
    Somehow I had a chance to criticize the project of this machine and was very surprised by the appearance on the pages of VO of such realistic material, without embellishment. Usually everything is wow, we will tear everyone and will not stop
    1. Narak-zempo
      Narak-zempo 9 January 2021 19: 15
      11 th
      Quote: APASUS
      Somehow I had a chance to criticize the project of this machine and was very surprised by the appearance on the pages of VO of such realistic material, without embellishment. Usually everything is wow, we will tear everyone and will not stop

      Do you doubt that we will break? Are you a Russophobe? Foreign agent? Navalny's hamster?
  28. 123456789
    123456789 9 January 2021 18: 19
    +2
    "Competition provides the best quality products and develops the worst qualities of people." - David Sarnoff American communications worker and businessman 1891 - 1971

    Source: https://ru.citaty.net/temy/konkurentsiia/
    1. Usher
      Usher 18 January 2021 01: 46
      0
      Quote: 123456789
      "Competition provides the best quality products and develops the worst qualities of people." - David Sarnoff American communications worker and businessman 1891 - 1971

      Source: https://ru.citaty.net/temy/konkurentsiia/

      I do not agree with the quality. Many manufacturers start looking for a cheap ersatz to be more competitive, because of this, the quality decreases. inconsistency.
  29. Redsun
    Redsun 9 January 2021 19: 08
    0
    And what a failure to call it right away? We tried to create something unique, at first it did not work, but experience is the son of difficult mistakes, as they say. Well, so it is not in a hurry yet, and in which case we will return Belarus)
  30. Reader 2013
    Reader 2013 9 January 2021 19: 28
    -2
    It already happened on the basis of a diesel locomotive in the USSR
    https://quto.ru/journal/autorambler/tayna-mashki-zachem-v-sssr-sozdali-teplovoz-vnedorozhnik.htm
  31. CTABEP
    CTABEP 9 January 2021 19: 33
    +2
    It's hard to write without a mat, but still.
    The whole absurdity is 20 years of circus with the "union state", during which our hefty clever officials from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, instead of merging, raised zmgar and a homosexual in the bad sense of the word on the throne of Belarus.
  32. Iskazi
    Iskazi 9 January 2021 19: 58
    -1
    Failure, cutting, unfortunately nothing new ..., we will not say anything about the characteristics of the machines, the author spoke clearly and unequivocally ... The question is in the trend ..., and even in the dense Soviet times, this was a normal practice ... , so - tanks - the only Tank Design Bureau - in Krasny Sormovo ..., but For some reason, the locomotive plant in Kharkov begins to design tanks, the same story with the Kirov plant, everyone knows about the quality of their products in the most difficult period of the war ... , then it somehow got better - but at what cost? We are generally silent about aviation Raider seizure of the Polikarpov bureau ... Someone pushed through the purchase and construction of GAZ, and there was not enough money for ZIL, YaMZ, nee Avtocar, Yes, the party was in power and remained, with all the changes, the main thing remains unchanged ...
  33. Petrol cutter
    Petrol cutter 9 January 2021 20: 34
    +2
    "The automobile plant in Naberezhnye Chelny has never done anything like that and suddenly became the lead developer of the most complex heavy multi-wheeled vehicles. With all due respect to the well-deserved enterprise, KamAZ never developed cars from scratch."
    Do you know what the matter is ...
    If you really want to, you can fly to space.
    I personally didn’t do much in this life either.
    However, life forced, and very soon learned.
    Yes, I learned so much that I surpassed the teachers ... And I continue to study. After all, as Ilyich said, study, study and study again!
    So the thing is ...
    If the topic is not dealt with, where does the result come from?
    All this is not done in one day. It's R&D though.
  34. Peaceful SEO
    Peaceful SEO 9 January 2021 20: 39
    -1
    Well, the KAMAZ employees really wanted to cut the R&D and subsequent supplies of equipment themselves. Well, the fact that "did not shmogla" well, that is. Grandmas have mastered it
  35. Xscorpion
    Xscorpion 10 January 2021 00: 30
    +4
    Quote: Hagen
    Quote: Xscorpion
    Panic out of the blue.

    This is on almost any topic. It seems that this is the editorial policy. Despite the fact that there is not a single author with a Name, and all the writing is based on the personal opinion of an unknown author. Note, there are no interviews with real specialists and experts. It seems that the editorial staff do not know this genre in principle.

    I agree completely. As a rule, the analytics of this site is always based on opinion
    an unknown source of the Ministry of Defense or an incomprehensible photo.
  36. Xscorpion
    Xscorpion 10 January 2021 00: 38
    0
    Quote: Togilen
    There is no competition between BAZ and KAMAZ in this area. Machines of the Voshchina-1 family are not designed for such a carrying capacity even with a similar number of axles. BAZ at one time, when developing the main gear for Voshchina, which had a higher carrying capacity than the Osnova and others machines, took advantage of the developments of the Rockwell company. In this, again, I see nothing wrong. Cars of the Voshchina-2 family, like the R&D "Natural" in 2008 (just at that time they opened R&D Platform, and in 2010 they opened R&D Platform-O) and all the money was thrown into the creation of "this", KAMAZ had indirect relationship, most of the work was carried out at the Moscow State Technical University. Bauman (at one time they calculated armored vehicles for Shot, then he wore the BPM-97 index). In Bryansk, an electric ship created during the research work "Polupar-1" has already been rolling (not to be confused with the research work Polupar for KZKT). To decide on equipping a new chassis with a domestic engine, KAMAZ PJSC acquired a controlling stake in OJSC TMZ (in 2016 they bought 32,48%, bringing their stake to 50,65%), where, in addition to the promising TMZ-880 engine, the V12 engine family was also developed (see tables). Let me remind you that TMZ participated in the tender for R&D "Chaika / Universal"

    , but the Universal began to be carried out by NAMI, and the ChTZ-Uraltrak Chaika (both development projects, as we know, did not receive). At TMZ they built and tested the 880 engine, but after the actual closure of the R&D Platform / Compressor TMZ became essentially an unnecessary appendage of KAMAZ, in the modular housing which was previously occupied by PSM (diesel generators), LLC Kamaz Veichai was created for screwdriver assembly of engines of the family Baudouin.
    P.S. For the author. KAMAZ (and in fact, made in the Russian Federation) wanted to buy MAZ (there is also MZKT) back in 2006, then in 2008 (then part of the state-owned companies of the Republic of Belarus was subject to privatization, but RUE MAZ did not enter it), then an attempt in 2010, and in 2004, about 300 KAMAZ-740.50-360 / 740.52 engines were supplied to MAZ, but this topic was not further developed, as were attempts to buy MAZ with MZKT. As a matter of fact, serious thoughts about buying MAZ were born after the first "Maidan" in 2004. Therefore, we opened the R&D "Platform", realizing that nothing really will come of Lukashenka. Only now they gave this research to the wrong one. At that time, KZKT was still operating (the only one in the Russian Federation that produced GMF for the SCS).

    Quote: Alekseev
    Quote: Stas157
    I don’t believe that it is an impossible task for Russia to replace the MZKT!

    And rightly so!
    It's just that many materials, including this article, are a retelling of the explicit and fictional from various "sources". After all, true information and a "popular science film" are also simply not available in the public domain for reasons of secrecy or any other reason.
    But much in the development of multi-axle tractors is well known.
    In particular, BAZ machines may well replace medium-sized MZKT products. Those. for air defense systems, cruise missiles, etc.
    But BAZ does not produce chassis for ICBMs, such as Poplar and Yars.
    Revive KZKT production? But the plant has sunk into oblivion and it produced tractors for tanks of the Maz-537 type, which now BAZs can easily replace, and not at all a chassis for heavy intercontinental missiles.
    As part of R&D Platform-O, an attempt was made to create a multi-axle tractor or chassis for a 21st century missile system, rather than trying to continue the traditions of the 60-70s. century of the 20th.
    Neither KamAZ nor any other plant had full experience of such work, but, by the way, ChTZ has been producing heavy tractors with electric transmission for a very long time, so there is some experience. The organization dealing with Platform-O has only a distant relation to the plant where KamAZ trucks are assembled.
    Did it work? We do not know ... there is no film. request
    But Shoigu officially announced that KamAZ-7950 was adopted for service.
    Such developments should determine the appearance of this class of machines for more than one decade. Heavy MAZ and MZKT have been producing for more than half a century. Nowadays there is also something to carry missiles. Therefore, it is possible that trial operation of several models in the troops, fine-tuning, design changes will be carried out for several more years, before the Russian army begins to receive serially 4, 6, 8-axle tractors of modular design with an electric transmission.

    I agree, roughly what I wrote about. For the next 15 years, a chassis change is not needed, since the rearmament at MAZ has already taken place. In the meantime, let them dig further, there is time.
  37. Voltsky
    Voltsky 10 January 2021 01: 29
    +2
    Is it okay that the platform has already been put into service, and is already being used in the Strategic Missile Forces in test mode ?! Or does the author draw knowledge from closed sources?
    1. Vic Klimets
      Vic Klimets 16 January 2021 14: 26
      -1
      Read my comment ... Motor wheels are not for modern combat ... With them, cars will not travel even a meter after using an electromagnetic bomb ...
      1. Voltsky
        Voltsky 16 January 2021 14: 45
        0
        Quote: Vic Klimets
        Read my comment ... Motor wheels are not for modern combat ... With them, cars will not travel even a meter after using an electromagnetic bomb ...

        Check out the joke; funny :)

        And what will Amy do with the winding in the electric motor? :) I will answer myself - nothing.
        So this is your knowledge in this matter not for this conversation, excuse me :)
    2. Togilen
      Togilen 16 January 2021 16: 18
      0
      Is it okay that the BTR-90 has been put into service? And several of them ended up in different parts of the country. 1 to a tamanka, 1 to a heater, 1 to a mulino, he then left for Yurga. Adoption does not mean supplies to the troops. It was only in 1993 that we removed the T-10 / 10M from service, which by that time had been in reserve for 20 years.
      1. Voltsky
        Voltsky 16 January 2021 16: 56
        0
        why are you getting at the idea that everything is bad ?! :) Well, OK; a pessimist is a mindset, I am an optimist ...
        1. Togilen
          Togilen 16 January 2021 18: 23
          0
          For "optimists". KAMAZ received the ROC "Platform-O" without any tenders and on an uncontested basis, with the results of the R&D "Polupar / Polupar-1" (KZKT / BAZ) being skimmed. At the same time, back in 2009, the directives of the first deputy minister of defense were issued, excluding the alternative in a number of areas and directly "recommending" specific KAMAZ vehicles. Further, with the filing of Rostec, an urgent closure of the Voschina-2 ROC took place. In July 2013, the directives of the NGSH of the RF Armed Forces were issued on the choice of base chassis for the installation of weapons and military equipment:
          - KAMAZ for weapons and military equipment SV (operational link), Strategic Missile Forces, VVKO, MTO;
          - URAL for military equipment of the SV (tactical link), Navy, Air Force.
          A decision is being made to transfer the S-500 system to the Platform-O chassis and amendments are made to the TTZ at the Triumfator-M design and development project regarding the use of the KAMAZ chassis.
          KAMAZ, having no experience and proven cooperation in the production of SCS and electric propulsion systems, fails the deadline. Despite the strong support of a number of decision makers. I had to pour in additional funds, shift the deadlines to the right, and even open the Compressor research and development project, because the prospects did not look very good. At the same time, Rostec conducted a flanking maneuver and ran into the MZKT. "Exhaust" in the form of a public statement of LADIES on the topic, many have heard)
          You can "optimize" further.
          1. Voltsky
            Voltsky 16 January 2021 19: 53
            0
            yes yes, it's time to vilify everyone, and sprinkle ashes on your head, cursing your enemies :)

            This is a technical process, I am working on this topic (not the Russian Federation) ... we always have zvizdets, but somehow we always taxi everything ... amended to the right, but we do it :)
            you are in your hands, hold something harder and more dangerous, and then you will understand that managers and real life rarely correlate

            When the project is closed, then we'll cry ... but for now :)
            1. Togilen
              Togilen 18 January 2021 09: 19
              0
              yes It has already been abandoned. I left KAMAZ a year ago (I worked at the STC UGK). Since 2019, sprinkling ashes on the head of the RF Ministry of Defense + Chemezov are looking for a new R&D contractor. Moreover, the latter basically does not want to consider the assets of Almaz-Antey and other manufacturers of VAT. They whispered in my ear that UVZ would be engaged in this, and KAMAZ, I answer you responsibly, reserved the production of VAT and MZA - Tornado K-53958 and Typhoon K-63968 + Typhoon K-4386 and their modifications.
              So you can steer to the right or to the left as much as you like - KAMAZ left the race.
  38. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 10 January 2021 09: 34
    0
    "We bought, had fun! Calculated, wept!" ....? what
  39. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. www3
        www3 14 January 2021 02: 16
        0
        all this was done in the USSR! MAZ-7907 is an example of this, with electric wheel motors.
        even copying the brain was not enough !.
    2. Usher
      Usher 18 January 2021 01: 48
      +1
      Quote: 23424636
      to give the Tatars a huge amount of money for cutting is a crime that requires a very serious analysis and for anybody there will be Medvedev's ears. who, due to a poor understanding of technology, gave KAMAZ a flawed topic in advance for cutting the dough. It was enough to look at the problems of the Porsche tank and draw conclusions to abandon the electric drivetrain. .or to come to an agreement with Lukashenko. But Dima could not tolerate Lukashenko at the genetic level, and that's the result - 10 yards of Russian money was burned in the furnace of the madmen.

      Nazi unfinished? Russian money? Give it to the Tatars? What have you lost here at all?
  40. avg
    avg 10 January 2021 12: 08
    +1
    Quote: Alekseev
    It's just that many materials, including this article, are a retelling of the explicit and fictional from various "sources".

    And there is. Pearl especially liked: "One of the reasons for the transition to electric transmission was the absence in Russia of self-produced torque converters - the competence in the development of such equipment seems to have been lost forever." But what about the "forever lost" and suddenly found competences to create high-power gas turbines? With scratching and glitches, yes, these probably won't be returned. No.
    1. agond
      agond 10 January 2021 13: 34
      0
      Quote: Pandiurin
      Why a reducer?
      The electric motor is directly driven to the wheel, located in the wheel hub.

      An engine with a planetary gearbox turns out to be lighter and more compact, the sprung mass is less than the wheel of the engine, (this is clearly visible on electric bicycles).
      Of course, it is necessary to develop an electric drive, but the question is, how comfortable are cars with 8 axles and 16 wheels (even if they are electrically driven and can move sideways)
      length 23 m,
      width 3.35m
      height 3.27m
      carrying cargo with dimensions
      xnumx length m
      diameter 1.8 m
      weighing 47 t
      the center of gravity of the load is at a height of 3.27-1.8 / 2 = 2.37m from the road
      wheel diameter 1.6 m
      I think if rubber tracks are used instead of wheels, the car with a load will be only 2.5 m high, the center of gravity of the load will drop to 1.6 m, of course the length of the track will have to be limited, but a lot of space will be freed up from them in front and behind where the engine and other equipment can be placed, it may be necessary to install wheel supports against longitudinal swaying on the bow and stern of the vehicle,
      And yet, the width of a car of a similar scheme can also be reduced.
      1. Aag
        Aag 13 January 2021 17: 32
        +1
        Quote: agond
        Quote: Pandiurin
        Why a reducer?
        The electric motor is directly driven to the wheel, located in the wheel hub.

        An engine with a planetary gearbox turns out to be lighter and more compact, the sprung mass is less than the wheel of the engine, (this is clearly visible on electric bicycles).
        Of course, it is necessary to develop an electric drive, but the question is, how comfortable are cars with 8 axles and 16 wheels (even if they are electrically driven and can move sideways)
        length 23 m,
        width 3.35m
        height 3.27m
        carrying cargo with dimensions
        xnumx length m
        diameter 1.8 m
        weighing 47 t
        the center of gravity of the load is at a height of 3.27-1.8 / 2 = 2.37m from the road
        wheel diameter 1.6 m
        I think if rubber tracks are used instead of wheels, the car with a load will be only 2.5 m high, the center of gravity of the load will drop to 1.6 m, of course the length of the track will have to be limited, but a lot of space will be freed up from them in front and behind where the engine and other equipment can be placed, it may be necessary to install wheel supports against longitudinal swaying on the bow and stern of the vehicle,
        And yet, the width of a car of a similar scheme can also be reduced.

        Of course, I agree with the first obzat.
        Further, I can only explain your fantasies ... with the holidays)): compare the length (base) given by you, with the track. How do you imagine the harp? Maneuverability?
        In operation, of course, they did not stand close (I have no desire to offend). The track L = 20m at the stop will stick so that only by breaking the transmission, the tracks change the situation (not for the better) ... By the way, MAZ-7917 is under "Topol" ", could continue to perform the task, with minor restrictions, and without several wheels (punctured tires, -when the central pumping fails, dismantled with other wheels, jacked-up). Try to simulate similar conditions for a caterpillar drive ..
        hi
  41. Artunis
    Artunis 10 January 2021 12: 45
    -3
    Than all this is easier to stir up Belarus to the Russian Federation to attach, it will be cheaper, True, first we need to "screw up" the top, using the syllable of the father, without this there is no way!
  42. Vanyusha
    Vanyusha 10 January 2021 13: 51
    +2
    All those specialists who took part in the work on the platform-0 have undoubtedly gained vast experience (remember, experience is the son of mistakes ...) which probably no one else on the Russian territory has.
  43. ref25
    ref25 10 January 2021 14: 15
    +2
    Fundamentally new design approaches, taking into account the loss of some, as the author writes, technologies, of course, create very serious problems in the production of the 6th generation electric ship. However, the idea is great and there are already samples. Problems were and will be, for example, there were huge problems when creating a tank engine for the T34, the problems were solved by talents. I am sure everything will work out, of course, with costs, but what about without them.
  44. storm
    storm 10 January 2021 15: 51
    -1
    In 2008-2009, the Ministry of Defense set KamAZ the difficult task of creating a family of heavy wheeled platforms 8x8, 12x12 and 16x16 with a carrying capacity of 25, 50 and 85 tons. In addition, the plans were 8x8 truck and ballast tractors capable of towing equipment weighing up to 165 tons, as well as aircraft at airfields up to 400 tons.


    The Customer was not smart enough to first order KamAZ a line of tractors - analogs of the MZKT, fortunately, the case and the valid samples and documentation in Russia were in abundance, and the designers could be bought in Belarus.
    That is, first it was required to provide the Ministry of Defense and the civilian sector with domestic products, and only then to start "space" projects.
    The Chinese have been successfully working this way for fifty years ...
  45. Ratmir_Ryazan
    Ratmir_Ryazan 10 January 2021 20: 15
    -1
    The main thing is not to stop, but continue to work and then we will get a positive result.

    Moscow was not built in a day.
  46. U-58
    U-58 11 January 2021 08: 27
    0
    It's hard to do.
    And also a complex of tests. Including natural ones.
    That is, to make full-fledged launchers and transporters and drive them with rockets (mockups).
    And start to do. Here the rocket mock-up will already be 80% a real rocket.
    And there are a LOT of such tests to be done. And in the desert and in snowy Siberia at -49 'and in the mountains.
    Where are the runoff of missiles to attack?
    Is this the reason for the slip?
    The price is prohibitive
  47. Torins
    Torins 11 January 2021 12: 49
    0
    You forget that the controlling stake belongs to Russia) So this is not only a Belarusian enterprise, but also a Russian one) and you also forget that, for example, hydraulic boosters for GAZ, PAZ, KAMAZ are also made in Belarus, but in general there is a lot of things, the list is very long ...
  48. zwlad
    zwlad 12 January 2021 18: 40
    0
    We decided to step too wide at once, and this is the result. You just need not to quit, but to bring to mind.
  49. ua1osm
    ua1osm 13 January 2021 20: 20
    0
    DAD CAN, but he doesn't want to.
  50. www3
    www3 14 January 2021 02: 22
    0
    somehow, in Soviet times, they coped with the MAZ-7907 and solved the problems with the electric transmission. and in the country of products that do not have analogs in the world, they cannot even copy the Soviet experience. and then they laugh from the amerikosov that they have lost the technology of producing lunar rockets.