Military Review

"Breakthrough" research of Russian scientists in the field of liquid breathing: the real state of affairs

141

prehistory



In December of the now distant 2017, during a visit to Russia, Serbian President Aleksandr Vucic was shown an experiment in which a dachshund was immersed in a specialized flask filled with respiratory fluid.
This event was covered by the Russian media like this:


It would seem that the news feed is old by modern standards - why do you have to return to it already in 2021?

The fact is that the then advertising campaign for the developments of Russian scientists had its effect. As a result, in the comments to my last article Expert assessment of the equipment of Russian combat swimmers comments appeared with the following content:

As for the technological advantages, liquid breathing is available only in the Russian Federation. Glossy balloons fade next to this.

In this regard, I decided to highlight the real state of affairs in this direction.

Relevance of the problem


Jacques Mayol was born in Shanghai in 1927.

This man is notable for the fact that while others dreamed of flying, Jacques's fantasies were directed to the underwater world. Moreover, the conquest of the depths of the sea was supposed to be without the use of any auxiliary technical means - without equipment and holding the breath.

When a person dives into depth, the pressure acting on the chest increases by 1 atmosphere every 10 meters and already at a depth of 40 meters is 5 atmospheres.

Physiologists of that time believed that a person physically could not dive deeper than 50 meters while holding his breath, as this would lead to the destruction of the chest and injuries incompatible with life.

However, Jacques Mayol dived. At first 50, then 60, and then 100 meters.

Examined the reasons why he managed to survive after such dives. And physiologists were the first to discover new, "undocumented" functions of the human body, as the legacy of our underwater ancestors. It turned out that the body of each person still "remembers" some of the adaptive mechanisms that allow it to adapt to being at a depth. Later this mechanism was called "blood shift".

The blood shift consists in the flow of blood from the peripheral regions of the body to the central, especially to the capillaries of the pulmonary alveoli. Thus, the blood inhibits the compression of the lungs under high water pressure, allowing diving to depths well in excess of 40 meters (theoretical limit without taking into account blood shift).

This effect made it possible to make a jump from 40 meters to 100 meters, and later to 170 meters.
This is exactly the result (171 m, to be precise) managed to achieve the Frenchman Loic Leferm in the category "no restrictions".

Running a little ahead, here is Jacques Mayol in the 1982 program Around the World. On the question of who was engaged in research on the influence of pressure on a living person.


However, further movement is impossible for a person.

At some point, destruction of the chest and / or collapse (collapse) of the lung can occur, which is guaranteed to lead to death.

The use of breathing apparatus solves the problem by creating pressure inside the lungs equal to the external one. However, the deeper the depth, the more gas is required.

So, for example, a standard 12 liter cylinder filled with 200 bar at a depth of 200 meters will last only 6 minutes in a calm state, without taking into account stress and physical exertion.

Another problem with the gas solution is that nitrogen and helium penetrate the tissues, saturating them under pressure, necessitating decompression. Its total time for divers working at great depths, in the maximum saturation format, is a whole week.


Fragment of the diagram showing decompression at maximum saturation. Depth 180 meters. At the top, the scale dimension has the format days: hours.

Above is an example of a decompression profile for a dive of 180 meters. Once again, I will note that we are not talking about short-term diving, but about working at depth on a “rotational” basis.

Therefore, for the underwater work of a team of several divers, a whole support vessel with high-performance systems for the preparation and storage of gas mixtures is involved.

And, it would seem, "Rogozin's invention" allows for a breakthrough in this area. And there are no competitors. That is, we are faced with another product,

"Unparalleled in the world"?

However, not all so simple.

And other countries have quite objective reasons for the absence of such decisions.

Let's take a look at the difficulties that stand in the way of implementing this tempting idea.

1 problem


Breathing is an extremely complex process that includes complex mechanisms of external respiration (how inhalation occurs and how gas enters the lungs) and internal respiration (gas transport, exchange of gases between blood and tissues, and cellular respiration).
In order not to burden the already cumbersome material, I will simplify some things for the sake of saving time and simplicity of presentation, but the meaning will remain unchanged.

In the alveoli of the lungs, gas exchange takes place between alveolar air and blood. The transport function in the blood is performed by hemoglobin, while it transports gas in two directions - it gives CO2 to the lungs, which it took from the body tissues before, and takes oxygen, which then delivers it to the tissues. In tissues, the process is reverse - oxygen is released, and CO2 is "captured" for transport to the lungs.

Since we live on the surface, the entire gas exchange system is balanced against normal atmospheric pressure. And on the surface it works what is called a Swiss watch. But the clock starts to skip when the balance is disturbed. With increasing pressure, the partial pressure of gases changes, which depends on two quantities - the percentage of gas in the mixture and, in fact, the pressure.

At a certain pressure, the affinity of oxygen with hemoglobin increases to such an extent that the latter loses its ability to transport CO2 of fabrics. This ultimately leads to rapidly developing severe damage to the central nervous system with subsequent loss of consciousness, convulsions and death.

This scenario is just one of many.

Each gas in the mixture must be balanced. This fact determines the use of different gas mixtures for different depths in technical diving. The diver starts diving on one gas, then (upon reaching the set depth) switches to another, and, reaching the end point of the dive, switches to the so-called “bottom gas”.

When rising, the gases change in the opposite direction.

Usually oxygen, nitrogen and helium contents are combined. The bottom gas contains the maximum amount of helium and the minimum amount of oxygen.

And the dive ends with an extreme decompression stop at 5–8 meters on pure oxygen.

"Breakthrough" research of Russian scientists in the field of liquid breathing: the real state of affairs

Technical divers with cylinders containing mixtures for different depths.

How does this relate to the liquid breathing experiment?

As long as the experiments are carried out at constant pressure, there are no problems. But during the descent and ascent, the pressure will change. This means that it is necessary to change the content of the gas dissolved in the respiratory fluid. In laboratory conditions, the liquid can certainly be prepared in advance. But how can this be done in a compact breathing apparatus? It is completely incomprehensible.

2 problem


It was not by chance that the dachshund was placed in the solution vertically, head downward.

The fact is that the animal was clearly previously injected with something that blocked the respiratory center, reducing excitability (the developers themselves spoke of such a need to suppress reflexes).

The position of the dachshund vertically upside down eliminates the complete filling of the lungs with liquid.

Why is it so important?

The fact is that the alveoli are covered from the inside with the thinnest layer of pulmonary surfactant.

Next, let me quote:

Surfactant (from the English surface active agent) - "surfactant", a mixture of surfactants lining the pulmonary alveoli from the inside (that is, located at the air-liquid interface). Prevents collapse (sticking together) of the walls of the alveoli during breathing by reducing the surface tension of the tissue fluid film covering the alveolar epithelium. The surfactant is secreted by a special type of type II alveolocytes from blood plasma components.

Without it, the lungs simply collapse (like the walls of a wet cellophane bag).

That is, to resume breathing after switching from liquid to air, the work of the resuscitation team will be required.

It is argued that modern fluids are free from this disadvantage. In reality, it should be understood as follows: they are better than the first samples.

But they do not make the reverse transition (from liquid to gas) safe.

3 problem


There is one more very delicate problem.

The fact is that the lungs are not the only air cavity.

There are also the maxillary sinuses and the inner ear.

Ideally, it is necessary to remove air from there and also fill them with liquid. In theory, this is possible. Similar manipulations are carried out in specialized conditions by a trained doctor. But not on a submarine in distress.

If an engineer looks at the inner ear diagram, then (from an engineering point of view) he will not see any major problems. However, the complexity is largely due to medical aspects.

The fact is that all internal cavities are stuffed with specific receptors, including extremely sensitive ones.

For example, the inner ear contains receptors for the vestibular apparatus.

Scuba divers may be familiar with the uncomfortable feeling of dizziness on ascent, which occurs when the pressure is not evenly balanced. The brain receives different signals from the left and right ear. And he cannot navigate in space.

The inner ear itself is separate from the pharynx. It is also no coincidence.

The question of the influence of reflexes and receptors in this project is practically not worked out.

This is a very broad topic. And it will simply not be possible to disassemble it all in one article. But as an example, the influence of the receptors of the nasolabial triangle can be demonstrated.

During the competition, freedivers sometimes pass out in the water.

Usually the mechanism of drowning is as follows: a person who has fallen under water holds his breath and is actively fighting for life. Then the swallowing of water begins; this is believed to reduce the urge to inhale. After that, a deep breath occurs, but as a result of laryngospasm, water does not penetrate into the lower respiratory tract.

The reflexive laryngospasm prevents water from entering the lungs, breathing stops.

At the same time, when a person is raised to the surface, the first thing to do is remove the mask from him and blow on his face. Receptors recognize the action of air. The brain understands that the environment is safe to breathe. And it resumes instantly, without any additional measures.

Do the developers themselves understand these problems?

Yes, they understand. Further, I quote a fragment of an interview with Andrey Filippenko posted on the portal tass.ru.

The inclusion in the device begins with the fact that we need to suppress the cough - a special substance is injected by inhalation in a dose necessary for a particular person. This can be an external inhaler or one built into the device. A person just should not cough, there should be no closure of the glottis (there is another, more difficult option - with the setting of an inhalation tube)

4 problem


If you do not go into the anatomical details regarding the structure of the pleura and lungs, we have a very small effort to inhale, for this reason a person cannot "breathe" a dense liquid on his own.

The situation is aggravated by the fact that not the entire volume of the lungs is involved in real gas exchange, but only the alveolar volume. For this reason, constant circulation of air in the lungs is vital for us in order for the alveolar air to constantly change.

That is, relatively speaking, a mechanism must be installed in a person's lungs that will constantly "stir" the respiratory fluid if we want its entire volume to be used.

In this case, the CO2 released by the body must somehow be removed from the respiratory fluid.

The ventilation problem is directly related to another unsolved problem - heat loss.

Normally, the lungs account for only 15% of the total heat loss. But this is when breathing air and in a normal state.

It is important to consider what happens when we freeze and the lungs fill with fluid.

The mechanism of combating hypothermia is as follows: peripheral vessels are narrowed, and blood flow through the limbs decreases. The body tries to keep warm inside itself, increasing internal blood flow, ensuring the functioning of internal organs and the brain.

The area of ​​the respiratory surface of the lungs with a deep breath reaches 100 square meters. Which is 30 times the area of ​​the skin.

In fact, this is a large radiator in which the body will try to retain heat, and the liquid breathing apparatus will most effectively take away the remaining heat from this reserve.

The list of problems is not limited to the four voiced ones. However, further immersion in them within the framework of one article is impractical (for example, how it is planned to repeatedly blow through the compartment through which the divers will go out, how they will be freed from the liquid in their lungs, because, like a dachshund, no one will turn them over on the surface).

What real Russian projects look like


Historically, one of those who stood at the origins of this topic in the USSR is Andrei Filippenko. It was with his direct participation in the 1980s that experiments were carried out on dogs.

At the present stage, the Foundation for Advanced Research (FPI) has joined the project.

Experiments similar to those demonstrated to the President of Serbia were carried out by domestic scientists back in the 1980s. And since then, little has changed in them.

Video from A. Filippenko's archive.


In the comments to the video, one of the viewers asked a completely logical question (at the bottom of the screenshot).


However, here, too, one correction must be made. He wrote about the domestic experience from 1988.

While in 1966 (that is, 22 years earlier) the results of his work in the same direction were published by an American scientist.


A screenshot from the jstore scientific publications site.

And before that, in 1962 (26 years before the Soviet experiments), another article on the same topic, "Of mice as fish", was published.

In other words, what is the bottom line?

Rogozin in 2017 demonstrated to the Serbian president (and the whole world) the experience of the 1962 sample (55 years difference)?

In relation to which the media used the epithets: "invented", "breakthrough", "innovative" and "unparalleled"?


An example of presenting experience as an "invention" from the site habr.ru

But, as the ad said, and

"That's not all"!

Commenting on this issue, a person with an avatar,

"Very similar to Filippenko",

from the account "Andrei Filippenko, PhD" wrote the following:

Therefore, despite all the criticism of the FPI, I am glad that in 2014 I managed to convince them to resume research on this topic, train the staff of the foundation and specialized organizations and transfer the accumulated knowledge. I am especially proud that I managed to include in this work Sevastopol, a city with which I have a lot in common.

I don’t presume to say anything, but the situation as a whole looks suspiciously like the fact that the "resumption of research" means a repetition of the experiments of the 1960s with minimal cosmetic changes.

But something has been done, isn't it?


Indeed, one can try to argue that there have been some progress in the project.

For example, replacing the initially used solution with a new generation liquid - perfluoran.

However, it was created by completely different scientists for completely different tasks (replacing donated blood).

Perftoran was created in 1984 at the Institute of Theoretical and Experimental Biophysics of the Russian Academy of Sciences under the leadership of prof. F.F. Beloyartseva and G.R. Ivanitsky. The creation of a non-hemoglobin oxygen carrier ("artificial blood") was awarded the State Prize of the Russian Federation in Science and Technology (1998). The staff of the Department of Anesthesiology and Intensive Care of the Dnepropetrovsk State Medical Academy under the leadership of Corr. NAS and AMS of Ukraine, prof. L.V. Usenko.

Thus, chronologically, the development of the project looks like this:

1. Studied the experience of Americans in the 1960s.

2. These experiments were repeated in the 1980s with minimal changes.

3. Studied the results of French research related to breath-hold diving.

4. We decided to use perftoran created by other scientists in our project.

Let the readers make their own conclusions.

Connecting young professionals


The design projects of promising technology are also a good addition to the dachshund focus.

Andrey Filippenko acted as a scientific consultant on diploma projects (apparently) of students of the Stieglitz Academy.

It is important to understand that this is an art-industrial academy.

That is, the projects were developed not by engineers, but by designers. However, pictures may well be used to popularize the direction.

As an example, I propose to consider one of these projects.


The proposal consists in the creation of a special apparatus weighing up to 5 tons, which by helicopter or other aviation by transport it is delivered to the place of the accident within a few hours. The crew consists of three people, with one in the sphere, and the other two sitting in a wet compartment in suits with liquid breathing.

Since the sailors of the damaged submarine are in unfavorable conditions, the chances of a successful rescue do decrease over time. At the same time, the existing modern rescue systems using support ships, naturally, have a limit on the speed of arrival at the site.

The developed concept relies precisely on speed. At the same time, the girl is asked the question - why the device is not equipped with any technical means, such as manipulators.

To which she replies that the manipulators weigh a lot. And then it will not be possible to transport the device by air.

At the same time, it remains completely unclear - how the arrived two divers will be able to help the sailors inside the boat? They have no food, no supplies of water, no air, no means of rescue or assistance. They have nothing at all.

Arriving at a dive site quickly in their super suits has no practical sense.

Speculation on the tragedy with Kursk


After the tragedy that happened to Kursk, the adherents of the direction of liquid breathing began to refer to this tragedy, arguing the need for their "breakthrough project" (which has been breaking through for 60 years and is about to break through).

At the same time, inaccuracies are regularly made.

The first inaccuracy is nobody knows how to save.

In 1939, the Americans conducted a rescue operation from the USS Squalus submarine.

The rescue took place according to the classic scenario - a support vessel and a capsule plying between it and the emergency boat, which in 5 "voyages" raised to the surface all those who survived after the accident itself.

Scheme taken from Site is presented below.


The boat was lying at a depth of 240 feet (70 meters).

And this happened, think about it, in 1939.
Let me remind you that Kursk sank at a depth of 110 meters, but the dimensions of the boat were incomparable with the USS Squalus - 154 meters long, 18 meters wide, and about 15 meters high to the emergency hatch.

The escape pod looked something like this - not the fact that it is one to one, but the model is similar.


The second imprecision is that could not be saved "in hours".

Let me remind you that this was not a military campaign across the Atlantic Ocean. It was an exercise - a planned event. And this means that nothing prevented the rescue ship from being brought to sea (they also need to train).

And even if the rescue vessel had not been taken out to sea in advance, and the distance to Murmansk was only 300 km, then it could have arrived at the site within 12 hours.

It is necessary to clarify here.

Yes, rescuing people from 600 meters is not easy. But to lower the diving bell 100 meters is a trivial task. And there can be no excuses here. In addition to the statement of complete material and technical unreadiness for elementary operations.

Today, such an operation is routinely carried out during exercises (which pleases).


conclusions


The topic of liquid breathing is potentially promising. However, its further development directly depends on the solution of a whole range of complex problems mentioned in the article.

These tasks, in turn, are not being solved.

This is also due to the fact that there is no understanding of how, in general, one can approach their solution (how to ventilate fluid in the lungs, how to supply a person with food and food, how to solve the issue of thermoregulation and reflexes).

But the paradox is that without solutions to these issues - there is simply nothing to develop in the project.

Since everything that could already be done has been done. And then - just marking time and demonstrating old experiments.

All serious scientists are well aware of this. Therefore, they see no reason to make the whole world laugh by showing old experiments under the guise of breakthrough research.

From another point of view, this is quite possible to show. For example, at open days or at specialized events for junior students of technical universities in order to attract attention to the industry, as well as to motivate scientific interest among young professionals.
Author:
Photos used:
https://cenotexplore.com, https://www.jstor.org, https://habr.com
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  1. lopvlad
    lopvlad 7 January 2021 05: 37
    -20%
    "Breakthrough" research of Russian scientists in the field of liquid breathing: the real state of affairs


    the real state of affairs leaves a state secret to which the author of the article does not have access.
    1. Snail N9
      Snail N9 7 January 2021 06: 15
      +20
      But what a "state secret" ... about French studies of the possibility of human breathing under water, on the basis of a "hemoglobin sponge" and breathing with liquid perftoran, was written by "Technique of Youth" in the 80s. "Dachshund" was dipped and forced to breathe liquid? So what? -Such experiments to "show" -effectively overlooked, but "unpromising" and not applicable to humans, in any case, at the present time and in the near future, there are many all over the world every year (there is a "cure" for " kovid "almost, not every day they invent - have you seen it, at least somewhere?) .....
      1. Svarog
        Svarog 7 January 2021 10: 58
        +17
        Quote: Snail N9
        But what a "state secret" ... about French studies of the possibility of human breathing under water, on the basis of a "hemoglobin sponge" and breathing with liquid perftoran, was written by "Technique of Youth" in the 80s.

        The article is of very high quality and everything is sensibly written. And everything that is being done today, everything has already been done in the USSR. But now it looks like budget development and show-off ..
        1. military_cat
          military_cat 7 January 2021 11: 04
          +19
          Quote: Svarog
          The article is very high quality

          Yes, this is really one of the best articles published in a long time.
          1. Alexander Vorontsov
            7 January 2021 12: 09
            +39
            Quote: military_cat
            Quote: Svarog
            The article is very high quality

            Yes, this is really one of the best articles published in a long time.

            Thanks, I tried =)
            1. Mountain shooter
              Mountain shooter 7 January 2021 15: 46
              +3
              Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
              Thanks, I tried =)

              Well written. One question. Why is the breath-hold dive limit only 180 meters? I understand that the lungs are compressed by external pressure, but how then do sperm whales dive for a kilometer ...
              1. SovAr238A
                SovAr238A 7 January 2021 17: 59
                +19
                Quote: Mountain Shooter
                Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
                Thanks, I tried =)

                Well written. One question. Why is the breath-hold dive limit only 180 meters? I understand that the lungs are compressed by external pressure, but how then do sperm whales dive for a kilometer ...


                his lung structure is such that they do not collapse or stick together at high pressure.
                so he is not afraid of a 3-kilometer depth.

                And his lungs have no air supply.
                They have a different system for storing oxygen in the body - muscular.
              2. Alexander Vorontsov
                7 January 2021 19: 32
                +8
                Quote: Mountain Shooter
                Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
                Thanks, I tried =)

                Well written. One question. Why is the breath-hold dive limit only 180 meters? I understand that the lungs are compressed by external pressure, but how then do sperm whales dive for a kilometer ...

                They have already answered about the whales. In general, nothing surprising, we are inferior in all respects to representatives of the animal world. Many people run faster than us, dive better, have better developed eyesight, hearing, and smell.
                1. Intruder
                  Intruder 7 January 2021 20: 05
                  +1
                  In general, nothing surprising, we are inferior to the representatives of the animal world in all respects.
                  not in everything, there is one quality that the representatives of the animal world do not have - the mind and its analytical abilities ... :)
                  Many who run faster than us
                  invented for this long ago, self-run "carriages": a wheel, a caterpillar, etc .;
                  has more developed vision
                  Radar / lidars / other sensors, few have natural counterparts with comparable parameters, even in HUV / IR spectra! :)
                  hearing
                  ultra / infrasound sensors, here also ahead of the animal world ...
                  sense of smell
                  gas analyzers, of all stripes ...
                  1. Bad_gr
                    Bad_gr 8 January 2021 02: 34
                    +4
                    Quote: Intruder
                    not in everything, there is one quality that the representatives of the animal world do not have - the mind and its analytical abilities ... :)

                    1. Intruder
                      Intruder 8 January 2021 13: 54
                      0
                      for this video:
                      1.a spear in primates: well ..., a sharpened stick, with peeling of bark and nothing more, you can smile :))) and read what technologies a person used in the era of stone tools even, the most important thing is the use of a tool for working with a stone and its evolution step-by-step, dozens of types of processing technologies for that very stone, plus the use of different hardness and strength ..., plus hundreds of types of tips, which is clearly visible especially in the late Neolithic and even the manufacture of a shaft, which are still not available to monkeys :)
                      2.the test with a rope, is achieved by the usual training of even a dog, even a cat ..., the only question is in the time spent on this and in the talent of the trainer, bears also ride confidently on monocycles in the circus, so what !? :)))
                      Also in other cases, isolated cases of individual representatives of the animal world are interestingly given, as the presence of intelligence in them, although this is just "in the range of statistical measurement error", with the same probability one can find intelligent activity in a water molecule ..., according to theory big numbers :)))
                      1. MoJloT
                        MoJloT 12 January 2021 15: 00
                        -1
                        achieved by conventional training

                      2. Intruder
                        Intruder 12 January 2021 16: 25
                        0
                        a set of gorilla gestures interpreted by the trainers themselves, and you believe that the primate has a set of relevant knowledge and conceptual apparatus describing the planet and the stupidity of people! ??? Well then, she's right: "stupid people ..."! :)
              3. turrzvuk
                turrzvuk 11 January 2021 14: 28
                -2
                [quote In general, nothing surprising, we are inferior in all respects to representatives of the animal world. [/ quote]
                Far from being a fact. Few people hunted in a driven way, but people did it. In general, we are very hardy - we can move for a long time with different tmp.
            2. dauria
              dauria 8 January 2021 21: 42
              0
              Why is the breath-hold dive limit only 180 meters? I understand the compression of the lungs by external pressure


              You know, I don't even understand the "compression of the lungs by external pressure". Doesn't the "body" (ribs and "skin" of the muscles) take on the load? Then the heart along with the chest would have been crushed ... But this is clearly not happening. recourse
          2. Polish jew
            Polish jew 7 January 2021 19: 21
            +2
            Really good article, I read it with great interest, write more and more often it is very interesting and to the point.
      2. Simargl
        Simargl 7 January 2021 13: 23
        0
        Quote: Svarog
        The article is very high quality and everything is sensibly painted
        It looks like this.
        Why did the author assume that this is necessary for rescue from a submarine in distress?
        And in general: what is it for? Exactly for one thing: for work at great depths ... but there are deep-sea suits ... but the problem is in the accuracy of movement, size and freedom of movement. And this means that the preparation for the work of the "deep-sea" should be done no worse than the cosmonaut: first, stab with drugs so that there was less panic, pour liquid, let it work, then stab again and drain the liquid with rehabilitation.
        I was surprised about perfluoran: the first thing I thought was that we initially used something like perfluorane with a solvent. + there must be something like artificial respiration.
        1. Intruder
          Intruder 7 January 2021 20: 07
          0
          Exactly for one thing: to work at great depths ... but there are also deep-sea suits
          exactly, half a century ago, Cousteau experimented with a helium mixture, why then, so scoff at the hydronauts ???
          1. Simargl
            Simargl 7 January 2021 21: 39
            +2
            Quote: Intruder
            Half a century ago, Cousteau experimented with a helium mixture, why then, so mock the hydronauts ???
            Work is announced for more than 700 m depth, but no one, except the French, owns the technology. We have so far reached 450 meters in neon.
            By the way, it is not clear how oxygen-helium mixtures work: without mixing, helium should flake off - the densities differ by 8 times.
            1. Motorist
              Motorist 7 January 2021 22: 29
              +2
              Quote: Simargl
              how oxygen-helium mixtures work is not clear: without mixing, helium should flake off - the densities differ by 8 times

              These are gases where molecules fly "freely". Liquids (solutions without phase separation) must be defended for a long time and tediously for at least some kind of separation of fractions.

              PS The gas mixture is separated by fractional condensation (EMNIP).
              1. Simargl
                Simargl 8 January 2021 07: 06
                +2
                Quote: Motorist
                PS The gas mixture is separated by fractional condensation (EMNIP).
                This is if the densities are equal and / or speed (performance) is needed
                1. Motorist
                  Motorist 8 January 2021 21: 06
                  +1
                  The video is impressive, I have not seen it before. However, the gases will later mix, and they cannot be separated by settling - the acceleration of gravity is not enough.
                  1. Simargl
                    Simargl 8 January 2021 22: 49
                    +1
                    Quote: Motorist
                    However, the gases will later mix
                    Do not mix. And this is a problem, for example, for methane: it accumulates under the ceiling. Even though the density is not much different (/ 2)
                    With sulfur hexafluoride, the same problems: the switch starts to poison - everything accumulates below.
                    1. Motorist
                      Motorist 8 January 2021 23: 36
                      0
                      Quote: Simargl
                      Do not mix.

                      I will quote something:

                      Each gas in mixtures behaves as if it alone occupies the entire volume of the vessel: its molecules are dispersed evenly in space and create their own, so-called partial, pressure pi on the vessel walls.

                      It is clear that Dalton's law is applicable to ideal gases in the absence of external forces. However, I think both gases (oxygen and helium) are close to "ideal" and gravity is negligible to prevent diffusion.

                      Of course, it is better to ask the divers if they have a taxiway that requires shaking the cylinder before use. hi
                    2. Simargl
                      Simargl 9 January 2021 18: 25
                      +1
                      Quote: Motorist
                      However, I think both gases (oxygen and helium) are close to the "ideal" and the force of gravity is negligible to hinder diffusion.
                      In fact, they delaminate. Yes, the border will not be as clear as that of water and oil, even some molecules will diffuse very far, but the concentration of gases will be different at different altitudes. I gave real examples.

                      Quote: Motorist
                      do they have an RD with the requirement to shake the cylinder before use
                      Most likely not: there, at a flow rate, good mixing will begin, and the volume of the cylinders is not large.
                      But the problem in the premises, I think, will be without mixing ...
          2. The comment was deleted.
    2. Jager
      Jager 8 January 2021 11: 04
      0
      Why "how"?)
    3. Evil Booth
      Evil Booth 8 January 2021 19: 58
      0
      just as well, adherents of the mask do not help ignore those countries where the epidemic has ended since spring and everything cannot be determined whether the mask does not allow air to pass through under pressure, or whether a billion times larger virus will pass under low pressure. and the concept of a dangerous dosage is banally unknown to them. and then, the mask precisely reduces the risk of infection. And so, at the depth, on duty, we have worked for a long time, VERY, it went quite well on TV back in the 90s. however, this also does not mean that there are no new technologies in the technology as such. for it can be just as qualitatively described that the cosmic hammer for weightlessness does not differ from the Stone Age.
  2. Filxnumx
    Filxnumx 7 January 2021 11: 48
    +7
    What a "state secret" ...

    First, I wanted to explain to you that the difference between "What is done", "how it works in principle" and "how it works in a particular product" are the differences between different levels of state secrets. But then I thought about "always on the nerves" of the ZGT guys and even added you. You think so, so go on. And everyone will be calm.
  3. lopvlad
    lopvlad 7 January 2021 16: 39
    +3
    Quote: Snail N9
    but "unpromising" and not applicable to humans


    the difference between the respiratory system of a dachshund and the respiratory system of a person?. The dachshund was dipped head down only to adapt to breathing with liquid more quickly.
  4. lopvlad
    lopvlad 7 January 2021 16: 43
    +1
    Quote: Snail N9
    French studies of the possibility of human breathing under water, on the basis of a "hemoglobin sponge" and breathing with liquid perftoran, were written by "Technology of Youth" in the 80s. "


    French research ended up with nothing really working.
    1. Intruder
      Intruder 7 January 2021 20: 15
      0
      French research ended up with nothing really working.
      already had, a bunch of projects like:
      1. Underwater pioneer Walter Robb of General Electric. - In 1961, a few months after the appearance of the first membranes, Walter built "gills" for hamsters. They became the first "ichthyander";
      2. In the early 80s, the spouses Joseph and Cilia Bonaventura from Duke University in Northern California created a kind of fundamentally new device - artificial gills that extract oxygen from the water like fish do. Namely - thanks to the synthetic hemoglobin of its own authorship. The device itself, the size of a book, was attached to the diver's back;
      3. Israeli inventor Alon Bodner, with his device - "LikeAfish".
  • Most kind
    Most kind 7 January 2021 06: 18
    +3
    Wait, wait, this is an American trick, like we have everything, but we won't tell you because it's secret, but at the expense of the experience of the 1960s, it's cool, but why did one president show a flying ax, another trick with drowning a dachshund and resurrecting it. Where is Zin's money?
    1. bessmertniy
      bessmertniy 7 January 2021 11: 01
      -3
      With our magicians it will soon be more profitable to eat oil products than products from fields and vegetable gardens. Adapting our stomachs for them is a more urgent task today than engaging in liquid breathing. lol
      1. shinobi
        shinobi 7 January 2021 15: 14
        +3
        And why adapt? In the USSR, they practiced the so-called BVK (protein-vitamin concentrates) in animal husbandry and not only. The product of processing yeast and yeast-like fungi fed on a mixture of cellulose and oil. No one bothers to revive this, if the need arises.
      2. lopvlad
        lopvlad 7 January 2021 16: 41
        +5
        Quote: bessmertniy
        it will soon be more profitable to eat oil products


        in the West, they have long been eating like that, as natural food without chemicals can not be affordable for many.
        1. No name B
          No name B 7 January 2021 21: 14
          -8
          This is your chemical food, but in the west there is a choice, cheaper is more expensive, ECO is not ECO, whatever you want and take it, the food costs a penny, and the choice is huge.
          1. Uncle Vanya Susanin
            Uncle Vanya Susanin 7 January 2021 23: 03
            +4
            Is the food worth a penny? Yeah and that's why there are kilometer-long queues in the USA for free groceries yes
            1. No name B
              No name B 8 January 2021 19: 14
              -3
              I am now swinging between Germany, Poland and Benelux, and so Kiev prices have long surpassed Polish ones and are very close to German ones. So it's good to suck in children's propaganda about chemical food in the West and the high cost. Or do you show the price tag from German Lidla, Aldi, Polish Biedronki? And in the US, food is even cheaper than in Germany, how old are you that you still believe in noodles from the media in the Internet era ????
              1. Uncle Vanya Susanin
                Uncle Vanya Susanin 8 January 2021 22: 08
                +2
                What does Kiev have to do with it? I live in Siberia, and as far as I know, Kiev prices have already surpassed ours for a long time. And where did you get the idea that our food is chemical, I myself work in the production of sausages!
                And in the US, cheap food is synthetic. But if it's not difficult for you, please write how much a kilogram of potatoes, carrots, onions, pork, beef and a liter of milk cost in Germany, I will be grateful!
                1. No name B
                  No name B 9 January 2021 00: 04
                  +1
                  Potatoes from 1-1.5 € for 3kg, pork stew 2,5 € - 0,5kg what I took myself, milk 1,5 € 3,2% fat, I don't remember the rest, I'll be in Germany from Monday, I can look at the store. Tomato juice 1-1,2 €, bread from 1 € in a store to 3 € in a bakery, beer from 0,5 € including 0,25 € refund per container, Hawaiian rum 10 €)) and take into account for a German it's a penny. I myself am from Kiev, I buy myself before the cadence in Poland, that's where the earthly paradise with food prices is!))
                  Finland with cranberries 0,5l in Poland for 9 € today I took 2 bottles, colleagues from Ukraine will arrive on Sunday, it will be necessary to celebrate the New Year and Christmas, otherwise I met everything on the way.
                  1. Egg
                    Egg 9 January 2021 12: 59
                    +1
                    Potatoes from 180r for 3kg, bread for 90r are cheap products for you? Oh well
                    1. No name B
                      No name B 9 January 2021 22: 05
                      -2
                      Do not forget the Germans and Americans spend on food from 10 to 20% of their salary, I spent 90% on food in Kiev, only our prices are high and salaries are small, salary in Kiev is on average 500 €. If this is expensive for you, then for them it is a penny. I. e. no need to try on their prices for yourself, you will earn as in the west, you will not even have a question with food prices. And there is a choice there from all over the world for every taste and wallet ...
                      Ps buying the cheapest products in Europe, I forgot what heartburn is ...
  • Aerodrome
    Aerodrome 7 January 2021 05: 51
    -9
    "Breakthrough" research of Russian scientists in the field of liquid breathing: the real state of affairs
    Today, 05: 19
    1

    cool ... when cops on the street are fined for "no masks".
  • Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 7 January 2021 05: 52
    +3
    Why is this needed? It would be better if they developed robotics, otherwise you look at the Boston Dynamics dogs and the robot Fedor and you understand how we lagged behind in this regard.
    1. mark2
      mark2 7 January 2021 10: 00
      -5
      It would be better if they developed robotics, otherwise you look at the Boston Dynamics dogs and the robot Fedor and you understand how we lagged behind in this regard.

      Well, get busy, what's the problem? Or you have a diploma in philology, the effect of which on your whining and backwardness extends ..
      The citizens sitting here with enviable constancy, in general, have lagged behind everything except wit.
      Boston Dynamics is completely privately owned. There is no state participation in it. so one can only blame the non-rastropic, unacceptable themselves.
      In general, looking at the boston speaker dogs, you understand that we are lagging behind not in robotics, but in cinematography. We certainly don't know how to draw.
      1. military_cat
        military_cat 7 January 2021 11: 08
        +3
        Quote: mark2
        In general, looking at the boston speaker dogs, you understand that we are lagging behind not in robotics, but in cinematography. We certainly don't know how to draw.

        I think it's the best praise for the Boston Dynamics developers when the cars they make are declared impossible miracles.
      2. Genry
        Genry 7 January 2021 11: 25
        +7
        Quote: mark2
        Boston Dynamics is completely privately owned.

        And it works for the Ministry of Defense, through DARPA.
        Quote: mark2
        In general, looking at the boston speaker dogs, you understand that we are lagging behind not in robotics, but in cinematography.

        We fell behind in the development of a mathematical model for controlling the dynamic movement of robots.
        1. Rusticolus
          Rusticolus 7 January 2021 13: 13
          -3
          Here zhezh glands storms and sausages. Not otherwise, Russian hackers gave them hacker vodka to drink. laughing
        2. Intruder
          Intruder 7 January 2021 20: 19
          0
          Lagged behind in the development of a mathematical model for controlling the dynamic movement of robots
          although, even in the MatLab (e) 2020a version, it is very convenient to simulate all this, at least in the Linux-owl version, for any schoolchild or student there is a low entry threshold, register on their website, download the desired archive and drive to simulate ...
        3. gridasov
          gridasov 7 January 2021 20: 49
          0
          Absolutely right! A mathematical model based on computational principles will not give results. The fundamental principles of calculus need to be changed
          1. Intruder
            Intruder 9 January 2021 14: 52
            -1
            A mathematical model built on computational principles will not give results.
            However it does not, it is strange that even the guys from Boston Dynamics themselves recommended using for simple projects and initial testing of models of the movement of actuators and positioning of actuators, while moving along the supporting surface ...
            The fundamental principles of mathematical analysis need to be changed
            but what's the problem, change the parameters and that's it, simulate different motion characteristics to "the very same ...", there are no problems with the models, you can connect paid libraries as you like !? :)))
            1. gridasov
              gridasov 9 January 2021 15: 55
              +1
              Analysis is necessary for understanding the essence of the physical process. No analysis, no effective solution. Analysis is not an end in itself. Therefore, the best that you can think of is to repeat the principles laid down in the drive of the mechanism of repetitive muscles of a person, the mechanism of mathematical analysis based on the principle of the brain, etc. A person is not even able to move away from a banal screw invented incredibly long ago. Therefore, the conversation is about expanding consciousness and perception.
        4. mark2
          mark2 7 January 2021 23: 37
          +5
          well if you believe in this then please believe in this too

          Blind belief in the superiority of technology makes you laugh
    2. shinobi
      shinobi 7 January 2021 15: 24
      +6
      And where are these developments from dynamex? Only in their own advertising. The Yankes army men drove their robomols for a test, and he did not arouse something special delight in them. And yes, one should not compare Fedor with their crafts. Absolutely different goals are pursued, as and technical solutions. Fedor, this is a multi-purpose autonomous manipulator with the effect of the operator's presence for various kinds of non-staff. Dynamex robots are walking platforms, it is not clear why
      1. Uncle Vanya Susanin
        Uncle Vanya Susanin 7 January 2021 23: 07
        +2
        The only competent comment, and you got minus request
        1. shinobi
          shinobi 8 January 2021 01: 05
          +3
          There are several figures on the site, they all minus everyone who writes at least a word of criticism to the Yankees, no matter for what reason and without delving into the essence of the issue.
      2. Intruder
        Intruder 9 January 2021 15: 01
        0
        Dynamex robots are walking platforms, it is not clear why
        how incomprehensible ??? and why, everything is transparent there: 1) transport of goods (equipment, food, ammunition) for tactical units when they are on foot; 2) evacuation of the 300s, to the point ... 3) army reconnaissance in difficult terrain, with contamination of the territory, all sorts of "substances" harmful to the carcass of the rank and file ..; 4) industrial monitoring in the premises of industrial facilities (NPP, chemistry, etc.) !!!
        Plus, from a friend in a subcontracting partner company, (let's say, a little light insider :)) since last year, a shock version of a mule for special operations, a drive has been considered - true, while the harp or wheeled modules, but light weapons can be carried and used for purposes, type: a single machine gun, an automatic grenade launcher or non-lethal weapon systems ... so that everything is clear and where the movement is going ... :) !!!
        1. shinobi
          shinobi 9 January 2021 18: 38
          0
          This is all show-off in the American way. Think about one simple question, why the walking systems were taken right now, although the general principles of such models have been known since 1878. Why did the engineers not understand? The Cannes scheme, used in a robomul and the like, appeared in 1994 and does not require special electronic bells and whistles. That is, in walking systems, with all their advantages, there is a significant drawback that does not allow their widespread use, especially for military purposes. The complexity of the design of the "legs" and low efficiency in comparison with the wheel.
          1. Intruder
            Intruder 9 January 2021 19: 24
            0
            Have you forgotten about:
            1) high vulnerability of the walking drive to weapons of almost any type (even an ordinary rusty steel cable stretched between something dug into the ground, already a predictable fatal case ... :));
            2) the complexity of positioning on a complex (complex) surface with a transition to another type of surface (clay-sand; ice-stones (and other loose soils), etc.) (and by the way, here we need a "number" in the controllers of the joint servo, especially in motion);
            3) shitty maintainability in the field and not only;
            4) low speed characteristics, on difficult supporting surfaces;
            :)))
            1. shinobi
              shinobi 10 January 2021 01: 29
              +1
              Absolutely. I don’t forget, these are just self-evident things. Hammered arguments known to everyone who was even slightly interested in the topic of walkers. After the war, 50-60s, there was a burst of interest on the topic.
              1. Intruder
                Intruder 10 January 2021 04: 29
                0
                there was a flash of interest on the topic
                and only, a "flash", but nothing serious has been built, even prototypes ..., only the curiosity of the inventors and a possible "self-starter", which quickly faded away, for obvious reasons - "zero" donation, the lack of banal support from business or the state! In the 50-60s, they took on almost "any" nonsense more or less presented in its perspective, the so-called: the era of the "cold war" and its features, in terms of the development of scientific and technological progress !!! :)))
                1. shinobi
                  shinobi 11 January 2021 04: 08
                  0
                  Well, not quite so, something has become a part of technical use, but not so and not in the way that amateur designers and science fiction writers imagined it.
                  1. Intruder
                    Intruder 11 January 2021 04: 56
                    0
                    something that has become firmly established in technical use.
                    A smaller part of the volume of the proposed "miracle" technologies, both in our country and in the West, although their dough went more for "experimental tests" than in the Great and Mighty! :)))
                    1. shinobi
                      shinobi 12 January 2021 09: 39
                      -1
                      It's just that they were mainly engaged in this by private traders, hence so much nonsense in the proposals. And there were enough swindlers. We know about the Mighty about the developers only from publications in magazines such as Technics of Youth, Modelist Constructor, Yunny Technik. What did secret design bureaus do and what they developed for We still don’t know about the vigilant control of the state. Here one figure ran into Fedor, I came across a promo video from the Klashnikov concern on YouTube. Demonstration of its capabilities to high-ranking officials against the background of other drones and autonomous devices. He himself drives light and medium vehicles, performs minor works at the level soldering microcircuits and repairing clockwork. I have not seen Chegoito or heard of such a thing in Dynemix's crafts.
                      1. Kvazar
                        Kvazar 13 January 2021 21: 56
                        0
                        Well, their "private traders" are very much sitting on the saws of the budget from the military, as it were (the same "Max is our all" clearly sits on the drink of NASA and the Pentagon), but according to others it is not clear what kind of state pie there is. money is sawing (Tesla) because the topic is even more muddy.
                        Private traders (without a drink) are not engaged in "nonsense" there is a slightly different approach. "We can sell it, the budget is like this." What do you want? "I want this" We can create the term NN. R&D budget XX lyamov. Well, why should he, cut the sturgeon at 10! times, it is not possible to sell at a profit (usually there is not enough seriality).
        2. Kvazar
          Kvazar 13 January 2021 21: 28
          0
          Uh-huh. On the walking technique, the cinema was reviewed in real life, all this does not work and is not necessary. As far as I remember, ours in Syria, in combat conditions, conducted testing for the assault of fortified positions with a mixed composition of robotic forces (involving, among other things, art, drones, etc., and two platforms) and with the final clearing of the Syrian infantry. And no matter how whoever says anything behind this, including the future.
          Unified information complex. Ground attack UAVs, UAVs, UAVs for demining (Uranium-9 is used in full in the same Syria, Platform-M and Platform Argo), UAVs, do not forget that the T-14 and T-15 can also work in the UAV mode.
          With a mixed composition, the Army conducting assault operations with remotely controlled vehicles in the forefront wins in terms of losses (and moral pressure, since it is psychologically difficult to fight with vehicles).
          And the same Fedor was created, among other things, to work out the technology for the complete replacement of living infantry in the ranks of the defending / attacking for specific conditions in the first wave.

          For local wars it is the most. Why risk a living soldier, on which the body kit is not much less at the price of his insurance in case of death and the cost of evacuation and treatment + rehabilitation and payments in case of injury (if that one rifle scope sight on a weapon can cost 1 rubles per person).

          A simple example. Near future (in 30 years). We set up a fortified observation post. We load 20 peacekeepers and 5 maintenance technicians there. And 100 Platforms of mixed types in the same state (always ready for battle, and they will probably not walk at all). Plus small survey disposable drones with jet launch for a general visual assessment of the battlefield in 120 cassette systems (with hydrogen fuel cells, life time 4 hours = 4 days, you can hang 5 drones for the picture from the top). Plus 9 survey permanent survey drones (lighter than air with power through the cable) A good supply of ammo, fuel and a generator at the base.

          Not only that, perimeter security can be immediately enhanced remotely.

          In the event of a "violation of the peace process," the checkpoint "suddenly" can "sharply" like diarrhea increase from 20 warriors + 5 technicians to 20 + 5 + 60 + 40 = 125 of which 100 are shooting machines for killing.
          At the same time, you brought the capsules, energized and let it stand with it. Maintenance, energy (only for heating and checking systems) such capsules do not require maintenance and are always ready for battle.

          It is possible to exclude the presence of "living" people there directly. And repair and maintenance can be done remotely by the operator. But it is still difficult and fuel must be brought up constantly.

          And so unmanned platforms on conventional generators (without any game with batteries), simply refueled and charged, are waiting in the wings for conservation.

          And Fedor is from this very concept. Remote controlled android.
          PS Figures are taken from balls by composition. And yes, all this does not apply to the "analog" of a person from a word in general. Because copying a person at a remote control (Fedor) is a transitional element (since all technology is created for a person, a person).
          Do you understand why you launched Fedor into space? where he was as buggy as he could? (for this, and launched to test and fix the jambs), and in order not to spend money on astronauts. Because by three orders of magnitude (1000 cheaper) to launch the modified "Fedor" there and put 3-4 operators on the ground (24 hours of work, instead of 6 in space for the cosmonaut).
          1. shinobi
            shinobi 14 January 2021 03: 45
            0
            Fedor is not a combat drone, but a multipurpose autonomous manipulator with an operator presence effect.
  • Soko
    Soko 7 January 2021 06: 05
    +21
    An unexpected topic. Thanks to the author for the article good
    1. Vladimir61
      Vladimir61 7 January 2021 06: 38
      +4
      Quote: Soko
      Thanks to the author for the article
      I agree. From such articles, you either learn new things, or rethink what you have already heard. There was even an interesting science fiction film, "The Abyss" (USA), where they presented the topic of breathing a liquid mixture at great depths.
      And there are many questions about Kursk, but judging by the information already published, there is such a tangle of unfavorable moments and organizational and technical readiness that it may be wrong to simply condemn.
      Plus, there is often either arrogance, for a simple solution to problems, or the fear of falling under the hot hand of the higher command, without understanding the whole picture of the incident. And, this, too, not isolated cases, may need to change the moral principles in the institution of subordination. After all, there were times when in the Russian army the concept of honor extended not only to external challenges, but also to relationships in the officer corps.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 7 January 2021 08: 00
        +1
        Quote: Vladimir61
        There was even an interesting science fiction film, "The Abyss" (USA)
        Perhaps the only film featuring such a theme. And in the first photo there is a frame from the "Pacific Rim", a little more related to deep-sea diving than this frame laughing
        1. garri-lin
          garri-lin 7 January 2021 20: 10
          +1
          Sorry Akvanavtov.
      2. garri-lin
        garri-lin 7 January 2021 19: 53
        0
        Remember the best domestic Oceanauts. Preferably a book, not a movie. Although there was breathing not through the lungs, the days themselves were also filled with liquid.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 8 January 2021 05: 57
          0
          Quote: garri-lin
          Remember the best domestic Oceanauts. Preferably a book, not a movie.
          Why is it better? A book was written noticeably earlier
          "In the depths of the ocean" of Hol Clement and there it is precisely pulmonary liquid respiration, and on the scale of a small underwater settlement, is described. And even the physiological mortal danger of a severe hangover with this breathing method has been eliminated. wink And in "Aquanauts" by Pavlov, one of my favorite authors, a completely different way of "breathing" is described, frankly, at the present time, fantastic. Well, in the film, filling the lungs with liquid, no matter for what purpose, is not shown in any way.
          1. garri-lin
            garri-lin 8 January 2021 07: 49
            0
            Just do frankly dissatisfied with the film. The main message of the book is missing. And I honestly didn’t know about the book you mentioned. But in the Oceanauts, the method of filling the lungs with liquid and, most importantly, getting rid of it, is well described. And by the way, there is an opinion that breathing through the skin at great depths is more promising than liquid breathing. It is because of the harm to the lungs.
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 8 January 2021 09: 06
              0
              Quote: garri-lin
              I'm just frankly dissatisfied with the film

              Yeah, what was cool for "Ichthyander" in the 60s is rather weak for the 80s, and even with a failed drama.
              Quote: garri-lin
              And by the way, there is an opinion that breathing through the skin at great depths is more promising than liquid
              Yes, but you must admit that the germination of certain harnesses from a wetsuit into the circulatory system is, albeit scientific, but still distant, kmk, fantasy.
              1. garri-lin
                garri-lin 8 January 2021 10: 48
                +1
                Plus optional. The skin breathes quite actively anyway. It is not a problem to actually consume oxygen through the skin. The big problem is removing CO2 from the blood. Here the skin is an outsider.
                And the film is not even a matter of drama. The plot is completely distorted. The Kraken Lotta has been removed. But the basis of the book is not a detective story or a betrayal. The heart of the book is memories of love amid all these deep-sea adventures.
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 8 January 2021 10: 49
                  0
                  Quote: garri-lin
                  Removing CO2 from blood is a big problem. Here the skin is an outsider.
                  I wonder how I didn't think about it. Well, here is where the flagella to help)))
                  1. garri-lin
                    garri-lin 8 January 2021 10: 57
                    0
                    In any case, this is on the verge of science and unscientific fiction. As well as the massive use of liquid breathing. Nanotechnology and material programming will shift in the future. But the future is very distant.
  • Turist1996
    Turist1996 7 January 2021 06: 24
    +4
    At a depth of 40 meters, the pressure is 5 atm ?! Well, if you count the absolute pressure, then yes, but usually the pressure difference is calculated relative to the so-called "normal conditions" ..
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      7 January 2021 13: 48
      +2
      Quote: Turist1996
      At a depth of 40 meters, the pressure is 5 atm ?! Well, if you count the absolute pressure, then yes, but usually the pressure difference is calculated relative to the so-called "normal conditions" ..

      Yes, at a depth of 40 meters, the pressure is 5 atm. And usually it is he who is considered. There is a simple explanation for this.

      If a person on the surface consumes X liters per minute, the calculation of gas consumption at 40 meters will look like X * 5. Not 4.
      If we take into account that most dives take place in a recreational format at shallow depths, then calculating according to your method will lead to an air flow error as much as 2 times - you suggest multiplying by 1 at a depth of 10 meters, but you need to multiply by 2.
      1. Motorist
        Motorist 7 January 2021 22: 53
        0
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        counting according to your method

        Turist1996 does not suggest calculating that way, he simply specified that the pressure is absolute. I also noticed. Thank you for clarifying what you mean by calculating the air flow.

        Sorry for the possibly stupid question: why does a person need more oxygen under pressure - the processes are the same? Or am I missing something in the article?
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          7 January 2021 23: 15
          +4
          Quote: Motorist
          Why does a person need more oxygen under pressure - the processes are the same? Or am I missing something in the article?

          For pressure compensation. If you take a ball with a volume of 10 liters and immerse it 10 meters, it will shrink to 5 liters.
          Due to the fact that the pressure inside and outside should be the same.
          Initially, there was 1 atmosphere inside and 1 atmosphere outside.
          Then the outside became 2. This means that the external pressure will compress the ball until there is also 2. This will happen if the initial 10 liters are squeezed to 5.
          Well, to get the same volume, we need to add the same amount of air.
          Therefore, 1 breath at a depth of 10 meters = 2 at the surface.
          It is not the processes in the body that limit here, but the pressure in the lungs.
          1. Motorist
            Motorist 7 January 2021 23: 32
            0
            I understand about pressure compensation: Cliperon-Mendeleev, Charles, Gay-Lussac and Boyle-Marriott ... smile I mean, in theory, the [relative] partial pressure of oxygen at a depth of 10 meters can be halved. Or vice versa - increase it to save the volume of the balloon, but breathe "a little". Is that so?
            1. Alexander Vorontsov
              8 January 2021 14: 25
              +1
              Quote: Motorist
              I understand about pressure compensation: Cliperon-Mendeleev, Charles, Gay-Lussac and Boyle-Marriott ... smile I mean, in theory, the [relative] partial pressure of oxygen at a depth of 10 meters can be halved. Or vice versa - increase it to save the volume of the balloon, but breathe "a little". Is that so?

              In general, yes, all experiments with gases were reduced precisely to the choice of the most optimal mixtures.
              This is a whole science - in the sense that the material is very voluminous.
              Some rebreathers work like that - there is an oxygen cylinder (exaggerated) and as it dives, it mixes the required amount of oxygen into the mixture.
  • Virus-free crown
    Virus-free crown 7 January 2021 06: 29
    0
    Well, I don’t know about "state secrets" - but about dogs that breathe in liquid in the 1980s, they trumpeted at every corner ... as I understand it, nothing fundamentally new with the "trick" with the dues from the beginning of the article happened, you think, saw the dough and the restoration of lost opportunities))) 35 years have passed roughly - but things are still there ... (((
    1. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan 7 January 2021 10: 58
      -5
      Here I am of the same opinion: all this is pure show-off and sawing the dough, probably a whole research institute is working on putting the dog in a pipe with water for a couple of minutes. What is the use of this? What are the prospects? Hey, author?
      1. shinobi
        shinobi 7 January 2021 16: 03
        +3
        Very often, in research with a specific purpose, side discoveries are of greater value than the ultimate goal. Example: In the 20-30s of the last century, a group of Soviet scientists worked out the question of the autonomous existence of the head outside the body ("Professor Dowell's head" is not entirely fiction) on animals Successful. The ultimate goal is classified as secret. The experiment was curtailed by a political decision (well, we are told so). Humanity is actively using the technical solutions of those works in medicine.
    2. Intruder
      Intruder 7 January 2021 20: 22
      -1
      nothing new in principle with the "focus" with the rates from the beginning of the article did not happen
      they may have died later, or some kind of attack with poor animals happened (but they did not write about this, so as not to disturb a lot of animal defenders)! ??? :)))
      1. Virus-free crown
        Virus-free crown 7 January 2021 23: 46
        -2
        Quote: Intruder
        nothing new in principle with the "focus" with the rates from the beginning of the article did not happen
        they may have died later, or some kind of attack with poor animals happened (but they did not write about this, so as not to disturb a lot of animal defenders)! ??? :)))

        no-no-no))) such solutions really exist, and at least for several years in the 1980s the dogs lived happily under the solutions after breathing and even gave birth to puppies))
        1. Intruder
          Intruder 8 January 2021 00: 51
          0
          for several years in the 1980s, dogs lived happily after breathing under the solutions and even gave birth to puppies))
          I am glad that the dogs did not suffer, otherwise these "playful hands" of human scientists - they can lime any animal !!!;)
  • evgen1221
    evgen1221 7 January 2021 07: 46
    +1
    Well, you have to understand that today, basically, a professor and an engineer decide little in research. And the PR department and the accountant are in charge to justify subsidies. Here's a PR. However, in order to popularize science, it is necessary to do so, how else, apart from enticing experiments, to drive young people into science.
    1. DrEng527
      DrEng527 7 January 2021 16: 39
      0
      Quote: evgen1221
      And they rule the PR department and the accountant in conjunction, to justify subsidies

      Well, give them the opportunity to write to the project in any fund! bully
      Quote: evgen1221
      the professor and the engineer decide little in research.

      Engineers really do little to solve in scientific research, they are not supposed to do so by their position ... request
  • 7,62x54
    7,62x54 7 January 2021 08: 31
    +4
    The experience with the dachshund was a hint to Vucic, who took over as president the same year: "Look, if anything, then we can, this, that ..."
    Vucic still wakes up at night.
  • U-58
    U-58 7 January 2021 09: 00
    +2
    Conclusions: it is necessary to recreate EPRON. As a part of having in the head research institute, and rescue units on each Moreokiyane, the carrier planes saved. equipment (A-42), ekranopoans based on Lun.
    [img]http://im0-tub-ru.yandex.net/i?id=8c238f84b48385b735a0e1585eaf3465-l&n=13[/img]
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 7 January 2021 12: 02
    +2
    Good article, respect to the author. A number of problems in the implementation of the concept of liquid breathing are shown. I remember the publications of the 80s, then everything calmed down.
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      7 January 2021 12: 20
      +3
      Quote: Aviator_
      Good article, respect to the author. A number of problems in the implementation of the concept of liquid breathing are shown. I remember the publications of the 80s, then everything calmed down.

      There is one more funny moment that I thought to include in the article, but decided not to overload.
      This is a member of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, who made the decision on financing in the 1980s and was apparently sincerely impressed (then).
      And after 40 years he says - I was so impressed.
      -But you probably already immerse a person now?
      And then it starts interesting))
      1. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 7 January 2021 13: 13
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        -But you probably already immerse a person now?
        And then it starts interesting))

        In twenty years, either the donkey will die, or the emir will die, or I will die!
      2. Motorist
        Motorist 7 January 2021 23: 22
        +1
        Thank you for the video. Gidaspov's employees disliked GIPH, to put it mildly ...

        I had a question: if the electromagnetic start is "two orders of magnitude cheaper" (ie, 100 times!), Then why are we not launching all sorts of satellite cargo, which is not so afraid of accelerations, in this way? I think the guy in the shirt exaggerates.
  • Sirocco
    Sirocco 7 January 2021 13: 01
    0
    I think so, all that farce with a dachshund is designed for the younger generation that is not familiar with what was developed and published in scientific and educational journals of the USSR. And so it all looks ridiculous. And on this basis, how can one take seriously other statements about breakthrough technologies in modern Russia.
  • bar
    bar 7 January 2021 14: 20
    0
    When a person dives into depth, the pressure acting on the chest increases by 1 atmosphere every 10 meters and already at a depth of 40 meters is 5 atmospheres.

    Is this a typo, or did you take the cosmic vacuum as a starting point? recourse
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      7 January 2021 15: 01
      +1
      Quote: bar
      When a person dives into depth, the pressure acting on the chest increases by 1 atmosphere every 10 meters and already at a depth of 40 meters is 5 atmospheres.

      Is this a typo, or did you take the cosmic vacuum as a starting point? recourse

      No, not a typo.

      More details about the logic were answered above (at 13:48). I could copy and paste, but moderators sometimes delete duplicate answers.
      1. bar
        bar 7 January 2021 15: 12
        0
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        No, not a typo.

        Clear hi
  • shinobi
    shinobi 7 January 2021 16: 22
    0
    Here, most likely, the true interest of research lies somewhere in a different direction with deep-sea diving, which is not associated with vigorous breathing, by the way, it is inherent in humans from conception (the fetus breathes amniotic fluid right up to birth), only 5-8% of oxygen goes into the liquid in comparison with normal breathing. And somewhere I saw information that one of the options being developed for long-distance flights in the solar system provides for such a way of transporting the crew / colonists. A person is put to sleep, placed in a capsule with such a liquid and cooled to + 5 °. processes slow down. Not anabiosis, but close to the notorious cryosne. Just as an example.
    1. Intruder
      Intruder 7 January 2021 20: 30
      0
      The man is put to sleep
      and truncated, wake !? :)))
      placed in a capsule with such a liquid and cooled to + 5 °
      , will all the same disappear in a "crystal coffin", if you store something for a long time?, especially the degradation of soft tissues and organs, hairline and prolonged absence of muscle activity, what is the most important, how will it breathe and move ??? after this dive at +5, the "furry northern animal" will come especially quickly to the heart muscle and valves ...
      Not suspended animation, but close to the notorious cryosneath. Just as an example.
      Or maybe just that one !? :))) and also "BEFORE", or still after a period of such a freeze ...
      1. shinobi
        shinobi 8 January 2021 01: 10
        +1
        This is not a question for the developers of the idea. For what I bought, for what I sell. I just know a similar deep cooling (without liquid breathing only) is used in some open heart surgeries.
        1. Intruder
          Intruder 8 January 2021 13: 39
          0
          I just know a similar deep cooling (without liquid breathing only) is used for some open-heart operations.
          Or rather, where and who used it, maybe the name of the method at least, honestly already interesting: to cool the whole body for heart surgery ???
          1. Alexander Vorontsov
            8 January 2021 23: 49
            0
            Quote: Intruder
            I just know a similar deep cooling (without liquid breathing only) is used for some open-heart operations.
            Or rather, where and who used it, maybe the name of the method at least, honestly already interesting: to cool the whole body for heart surgery ???

            I won't say about the whole body, but they indulge in ice.

            - Hello! - Leo Antonovich approaches the operating table.

            The reflector flashlight, the one on his forehead, aims very carefully. - Now we will stop the heart so that we can work on it. - Kate! Give me ice ...

            The operating nurse serves a spoonful of ice, an ordinary teaspoon, and Leo Antonovich covers his heart with this grainy grayish ice. The second assistant removes blood and water from the melting ice with a wheezing suction. The heart gradually stops, cools down. Instead of a heart, mechanics work, these silent, smoothly rotating pumps of the heart-lung machine. Constantly wheezing suction

            ps
            Leo Anatolyevich, this is L.A. Boqueria
            1. Intruder
              Intruder 9 January 2021 01: 30
              0
              interesting .... and original :)))
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 7 January 2021 16: 35
    0
    The topic is interesting and not known, thanks to the author!
    I will note that even in the author's statement:
    "Thus, the chronological development of the project looks like as follows:
    1. Studied the experience of Americans in the 1960s.
    2. These experiments were repeated in the 1980s with minimal changes.
    3. Studied the results of French research related to breath-hold diving.
    4. We decided to use perftoran created by other scientists in our project.
    Let the readers make their own conclusions. "
    the actions of the developers look quite reasonable - they studied the experience and developed it, so the author's scornfulness simply speaks of his lack of understanding of the ways of developing science ... request Or something different? wink
    "Did Rogozin demonstrate to the Serbian president (and the whole world) the experience of the 2017 sample (1962 years difference) in 55?"
    1) the liquid is different, then the experience is not quite the same - why does the author distort?
    2) it is not so easy to get money for research, and sometimes it is simply impossible to explain the essence of research to amateurs - therefore, a surrogate that they understand is made ...
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 7 January 2021 16: 47
    0
    "The ventilation problem is directly related to another unsolved problem - heat loss."
    this is of course a problem, but the solution is on the surface - a liquid, for example, can be heated to a certain temperature ... hi
    "a mechanism must be installed in the human lungs that will constantly" stir "the respiratory fluid if we want its entire volume to be used."
    technically, it is not so difficult to supply fluid through a hose, it will create an exchange ... similar to what is done with artificial lung ventilation in the gas phase ...
    Why I wrote this - some of these problems are not so difficult at first glance, but the road will be mastered by the walking ... hi
  • Rusticolus
    Rusticolus 7 January 2021 18: 56
    -1
    But they do not make the reverse transition (from liquid to gas) safe.
    By the way, if you carefully look not at this video, but at the one filmed in the same place, but by a different channel, then it is perfectly visible that the dachshund after extraction had serious breathing problems, and this was with obvious drug preparation of the respiratory organs.
  • ycuce234-san
    ycuce234-san 7 January 2021 19: 49
    0
    Most likely, progress does not move in this area because it is more likely to be engaged in by physicians than by specialists in chemical materials science and chemists with biochemists, who, perhaps, would develop "to order" new versions of respiratory fluids, as they develop new varnishes and paints. fuels, oils and brakes for motorsport. Well, or at least reasonably and convincingly excluded the obviously unsuitable directions in the study and synthesis of liquids. In the end - the opah fish is considered partially warm-blooded and lives and actively hunts in the cold deep water - so, perhaps, doctors should be more concerned with the problem of thermoregulation control in conjunction with liquid breathing.
    In addition, another path is probably physiologically possible, namely, direct saturation of the blood with oxygen in the appropriate equipment, supplemented by the removal of carbon dioxide. This is called extracorporeal membrane oxygenation (ECMO, EMO), and medical oxygenators are also used. In this case, the lungs can, probably, work idle in a gas environment, driving in a circle a circulating gas-ballast or even a liquid-ballast in a heat-insulated circuit.

    Jacques Mayol was born in Shanghai in 1927.


    On the site, by the way, the biography and history of the activities of this interesting person, alas, is absent.
  • garri-lin
    garri-lin 7 January 2021 20: 02
    0
    The question of the consequences for the human body of such manipulations is also important. What harm can be done in the long term. The responsibility of society to people who made such sacrifices. If such questions are resolved, then only then can we think of modern Ichthyandras. Because I think that the actual consequences will be no less than that of the above character.
  • Operator
    Operator 7 January 2021 22: 08
    +1
    Liquid breathing is a solvable problem. Americans in the 1970s liquidated their fluorocarbon compound, proposed as a blood substitute, an oxygen carrier. Soviet developers, led by Beloyartsev, made Americans like little children with a domestic fluorocarbon compound, perftoran. In the 1980s, Beloyartsev was persecuted by foreign agents from the academic environment (mainly Jews, who then fled to Israel in full force).

    It is wonderful that a new niche of application has been formed for the word perfluorane, which has no foreign analogues, in general - liquid breathing under water. Immediately dismissing the absurd claims to the food and drink of divers under water (for this there is a time before and after diving), one can only discuss one thing - what needs to be added to the perfluorane emulsion so as not to damage the natural inner lining of the lungs and other cavities (such as the maxillary sinus and inner ear ) when replacing air with liquid.

    It is this specific goal that must be achieved.
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 8 January 2021 02: 00
    -4
    Another attempt by chemistry to squeeze another "over" from a piece of meat. The direction is most likely a dead end, since underwater vehicles follow the same evolution of crew reduction due to robotization as all modern high-tech. military equipment. Inevitably, the reduction of the crew on future sites, therefore, the option of survival-evacuation will be better worked out. It is worth investing in these developments, and we will leave experiments with liquid breathing for those who like to master the budget.
  • KSVK
    KSVK 8 January 2021 03: 29
    +2
    Quote: Motorist
    I mean, in theory, the [relative] partial pressure of oxygen at a depth of 10 meters can be halved.


    Can. Even more. The human body can easily manage with a partial oxygen of 0,17 ATA. But why? Oxygen is removed from the body as quickly as possible, in contrast to inert gases, since it is consumed by that body for its own needs. And as research has shown, the partial 1,6 is safe for us. Therefore, when calculating gas mixtures, oxygen is "poured" to the maximum in order to reduce the content of inert gases in the tissues.
    Quote: Motorist

    Or vice versa - increase it to save the volume of the balloon, but breathe "a little". Is that so?

    Breathing "a little" will not work. :) You forget that in addition to oxygen supply, gas also carries out CO2. And our physiology is such that the "motivation" to inhale is not a lack of oxygen, but an excess of carbon dioxide.
  • KSVK
    KSVK 8 January 2021 03: 45
    +2
    The author forgot to mention that it is IMPOSSIBLE to breathe liquid without an apparatus for compulsory pumping of this very liquid in the lungs. Our lungs, or rather those muscles that are involved in the breathing process, simply cannot pump liquid in the required volume. Physically they cannot. So to the "portable" liquid breathing apparatus you will need to "sprinkle" a decent pump. Hand over to me that the presence of such a pump will greatly spoil this very "portability". ;)
    This is so, in a simple way. But in reality everything is much more complicated. According to the theory, it is generally necessary to "disconnect" the lungs from the process, and pump the liquid through them forcibly. But I personally have little idea of ​​how to do it.
    IMHO, it will be much more promising to create an apparatus for external purification of blood directly from carbon dioxide and saturation with oxygen.
    The issue of decompression will also be resolved here, since it will be possible to control the content of gases in it. But this is a matter for the distant future. :)
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      8 January 2021 13: 20
      +2
      Quote: KSVK
      The author forgot to mention ... that it is IMPOSSIBLE to breathe liquid without a device forcing this liquid into the lungs.

      Rather, you did not read carefully drinks
      The situation is aggravated by the fact that not the entire volume of the lungs is involved in real gas exchange, but only the alveolar volume. For this reason, constant circulation of air in the lungs is vital for us in order for the alveolar air to constantly change.

      That is, relatively speaking, a mechanism must be installed in a person's lungs that will constantly "stir" the respiratory fluid if we want its entire volume to be used.

      And they also wrote about heating this liquid. (that it is advisable not only to pump it, but also to warm it up)
      And also here
      The list of problems is not limited to the four voiced ones. However, further immersion in them within the framework of one article is impractical (
  • KSVK
    KSVK 8 January 2021 03: 56
    +2
    Quote: Simargl

    By the way, it is not clear how oxygen-helium mixtures work: without mixing, helium should flake off - the densities differ by 8 times.

    They work well. :) Expensive, that's just. Therefore, helioxes are used only by "aristocrats and degenerates." And ordinary mortals are content with "trimix" or KAGS. Oxygen-nitrogen-helium mixtures.
    And the difference in densities during plugging can be easily treated. First, the lightest gas, helium, is hit, then air and, if necessary, add oxygen to the last. Provided, of course, that the cylinder beats while standing with the valve up. :) Well, the most paranoid divers, upon completion of the filling process, still roll the cylinder on the deck / floor. But with "sparks" it's harder ..... :)
  • KSVK
    KSVK 8 January 2021 04: 15
    0
    And yes, the Author, you apparently did not quite understand the essence of the "buns" of liquid breathing, judging by this:
    As long as the experiments are carried out at constant pressure, there are no problems. But during the descent and ascent, the pressure will change. This means that it is necessary to change the content of the gas dissolved in the respiratory fluid. In laboratory conditions, the liquid can certainly be prepared in advance. But how can this be done in a compact breathing apparatus? It is completely incomprehensible.

    The point is that with liquid breathing, decompression will become a thing of the past. That's absolutely. After all, the process of supersaturation of tissues with inert and not very gases occurs precisely during gas exchange, when we push gas with excess pressure into the lungs to compensate for the external. In the case of liquid, this is NOT NECESSARY. Respiratory fluid will be delivered (hypothetically) at the same pressure as body tissues. And there will be no tissue oversaturation. After all, our body consumes X kilogram of oxygen per hour, which is at a pressure of 1 ATA, which is at 20 ATA. And the composition of the breathing liquid mixture will be constant at any depth. But these are all wet dreams. No more. :)
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      8 January 2021 13: 08
      +1
      Quote: KSVK
      And yes, the Author, you apparently did not quite understand the essence of the "buns" of liquid breathing, judging by this:
      As long as the experiments are carried out at constant pressure, there are no problems. But during the descent and ascent, the pressure will change. This means that it is necessary to change the content of the gas dissolved in the respiratory fluid. In laboratory conditions, the liquid can certainly be prepared in advance. But how can this be done in a compact breathing apparatus? It is completely incomprehensible.

      The point is that with liquid breathing, decompression will become a thing of the past.

      No, you have not quite figured out the article, before the one you quoted, there were 2 paragraphs about the toxic effect of gases, and not about decompression.
      1. water
        water 9 January 2021 11: 04
        +1
        .
        At a certain pressure, the affinity of oxygen with hemoglobin increases to such an extent that the latter loses its ability to transport CO2 from tissues. Which ultimately leads to rapidly developing severe damage to the central nervous system with subsequent loss of consciousness, convulsions and death
        - I did not have a chance to participate in this experiment, at the same time, its participants said that when conducting practical diving of an experimental dog in a complex of animal studies of the Experimental Scientific Research Base of the 40th State. NII MO to a depth of 1000 meters, this phenomenon was not revealed. Respiratory fluid quite adequately gave oxygen to the lungs and dissolved in itself carbon dioxide emitted by the lungs. It was behind the development of a CO2 absorber filter for the liquid.
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          9 January 2021 11: 50
          0
          Quote: watermark
          .
          At a certain pressure, the affinity of oxygen with hemoglobin increases to such an extent that the latter loses its ability to transport CO2 from tissues. Which ultimately leads to rapidly developing severe damage to the central nervous system with subsequent loss of consciousness, convulsions and death
          - I did not have a chance to participate in this experiment, at the same time, its participants said that when conducting practical diving of an experimental dog in a complex of animal studies of the Experimental Scientific Research Base of the 40th State. NII MO to a depth of 1000 meters, this phenomenon was not revealed. Respiratory fluid quite adequately gave oxygen to the lungs and dissolved in itself carbon dioxide emitted by the lungs. It was behind the development of a CO2 absorber filter for the liquid.

          This effect is not related to fluid, it is related to human physiology.

          to a depth of 1000 meters

          Paper can stand it.
          There is no information about how exactly they immersed the dachshund to 1000 meters.
          Where can you read the description of the experiment and its results?

          It was behind the development of a CO2 absorber filter for the liquid.


          Here are the lungs.
          How is it supposed to ensure the fluid changeability within this system?
          For heating, O2 delivery and CO2 removal

          How is it planned to be done?
          1. water
            water 9 January 2021 16: 49
            -1
            I agree with you - paper, a patient thing. However, an experimental no-decompression diving descent of a mongrel dog to a depth of 1000 meters in a pressure chamber while breathing a liquid medium took place. The dog survived. Then she lived for a long time in a nearby yacht club. There are hardly any links on the Internet about this, but you can go to the museum of the Research Institute of Rescue and Underwater Technologies of the VUNC VMA Navy. This is what remains of the 40th State Research Institute. There were the main characteristics of the research on the stand.
            How was it planned to be done? - In theory, it's not difficult. Artificial lung ventilation apparatus. Instead of oxygen, a special liquid. Heated and saturated with oxygen to the desired concentration. Exhaled liquid for CO2 removal, then heating, O2 saturation and inhalation. A kind of liquid rebreather. By the way, work on this matter was stopped in 1993.
            1. Sloven
              Sloven 12 January 2021 06: 30
              -1
              Minus you not the author slapped, whom you so easily lowered below the baseboard and hinted at his payment?)
  • SERVER
    SERVER 8 January 2021 11: 00
    0
    Well, I remember that they wrote about KURSK that the coaming platform was deformed and docking was impossible
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      8 January 2021 13: 54
      +1
      Quote: SERVER
      Well, I remember that they wrote about KURSK that the coaming platform was deformed and docking was impossible

      They wrote. But there are shots (I could not find it quickly, if anyone remembers what kind of video, please discard) where the rescue vehicle is trying to dive to Kursk and almost drowns. And the O-rings on it, necessary for docking, were in disrepair.

      It would be one thing if the rescue vessel was among the ships in the exercises. Everything would be ready. The boat would be approached within 6-12-24 hours ... (the boat did not get in touch at the appointed time - it is already possible to "suspect" something if explosions were recorded before and, having data on the approximate area of ​​explosions, start looking for it).
      Within a day we went down to the boat, BUT ... really some problem would have been from Kursk.
      This is one option.

      But the versions about damage on the side of Kursk are suspiciously convenient, because they made it possible to remove at that time very painful questions for the command - could we have saved? Could foreigners save?
  • Charik
    Charik 8 January 2021 13: 27
    -2
    Rent told how the underwater inhabitants were met near the Crimean Peninsula and even combat swimmers encountered them during the exercise ((maybe a special operation) on Lake Baikal, after all, it was not for nothing that I AM on the bathyscaphe then descended into Baikal, probably exchanged technology, he was still there they gave the jug wassat
  • acetophenon
    acetophenon 8 January 2021 14: 51
    +1
    Quote: Motorist
    Thank you for the video. Gidaspov's employees disliked GIPH, to put it mildly ...
    .

    Someone how, no need to generalize. Gidaspov helped me a lot, an LTI graduate who had just come to work.
  • Alexey Kurilov_4
    Alexey Kurilov_4 8 January 2021 22: 13
    0
    in Adler dived for shells and got carried away Suddenly, like nails in ears On the shore, blew blood
  • Horn
    Horn 9 January 2021 09: 23
    +1
    Friends of Putin, who have been given all the financial directions and branches of Russia for feeding, cannot invent anything other than new methods of theft in principle. And this was not supposed: their task is to maintain the status quo. That's where the stagnation is! And we blamed Brezhnev ...
    1. Sloven
      Sloven 12 January 2021 06: 26
      -1
      Do not envy)
  • We_smart
    We_smart 9 January 2021 09: 26
    +1
    Quote: lopvlad
    Quote: bessmertniy
    it will soon be more profitable to eat oil products


    in the West, they have long been eating like that, as natural food without chemicals can not be affordable for many.

    Have you seen chemical food in Portugal?
  • Shahno
    Shahno 9 January 2021 14: 57
    0
    Quote: Intruder
    A mathematical model built on computational principles will not give results.
    However it does not, it is strange that even the guys from Boston Dynamics themselves recommended using for simple projects and initial testing of models of the movement of actuators and positioning of actuators, while moving along the supporting surface ...
    The fundamental principles of mathematical analysis need to be changed
    but what's the problem, change the parameters and that's it, simulate different motion characteristics to "the very same ...", there are no problems with the models, you can connect paid libraries as you like !? :)))

    Nobody recommended anything. Don't spread anything ... and not good.
    // A mathematical model built on computational principles will not give results //
    You propose to invoke spirits, or what ... Everything is based on computational principles. Well besides what we worship laughing
  • WayKheThuo
    WayKheThuo 9 January 2021 15: 07
    0
    The author, thank you very much.
    A competent, balanced and very useful article.
    1. Sloven
      Sloven 12 January 2021 06: 24
      0
      The article is large, written in a language that is strange for an ordinary person, giving the impression of a multi-knowledgeable author. But in fact, there is little information in it and there are almost only speculations.
      Dust in the eyes.
  • lenkom48
    lenkom48 10 January 2021 19: 00
    0
    In 88 he served on a boat for a short time, in Sevastopol. The boat was built for researching diving to great depths of people. Two anchors - to stand under water, two pressure chambers, an airlock. A physiologist served with us, I don't remember his name or surname. Lieutenant Colonel, transferred to Vladik. He said that experiments with people swimming underwater and breathing some kind of mixtures were then carried out in full. Moreover, the mixture entered the lungs as a liquid, highly enriched with oxygen. Breathe and swim as much as you want and no diving diseases. The problem is different. When breathing with these mixtures, mucus was washed out from the alveoli of the lungs, and when breathing air, the alveoli stuck together and the person instantly died. And that was the most difficult problem, not solved then. The Union was a great power. And now one chatter.
    1. Sloven
      Sloven 12 January 2021 06: 22
      0
      Not resolved then. But perhaps solved now.
      All you need to decide is how to make sure that the surfactant is not washed out. It's pretty simple, I think.
  • Pavel73
    Pavel73 11 January 2021 20: 11
    0
    Simply put, liquid breathing creates more problems than it solves.
  • Sloven
    Sloven 12 January 2021 06: 19
    +1
    Hmm. Great article.
    I am not an expert in the issues raised in the article (relevant research), but I can say something about other issues.
    The author of the article certainly does not know what kind of research is being carried out, how, why, etc. And it is clear that he draws conclusions only on the basis of his available data. And not on the basis of all the data (because there is no access to all information on today's research and the vision of the entire project).
    Therefore, the conclusions voiced in the article can be both correct and incorrect. 50/50.
    Regarding the tragedy with the submarine "Kursk", the author also clearly emphasizes one side of the issue and hushes up the other, playing on the emotions of the reader. And in view of this, it can be assumed that the author of the article wrote it specifically with a bias towards accusing scientists and the state.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Falcon iba
    Falcon iba 8 February 2021 15: 04
    0
    "How can the two divers who have arrived help the sailors inside the boat?"
    If there are two divers with special equipment, then the entire vessel must be lifted, securing the appropriate equipment for this.