Military Review

Chinese fifth generation fighter J-20 - on technology and design

126

Today, only three countries in the world are capable of creating their own fifth generation fighters. We are talking about Russia, China and the United States.


The ancestors of the fifth generation fighters are the United States, which created and supplied the F-22 aircraft to its own Air Force. This is a development of the 90s, which still has considerable prospects. And technological developments are used in other means of combat aviationincluding the American F-35.

A considerable number of experts believe that the F-22 became a kind of base for the creation of the Chinese fifth-generation fighter J-20. Whether a certain kind of technological information appeared in China through espionage, or the PRC, without performing reconnaissance and espionage tasks, came to the implementation of its own fighter - a separate question.

It is important that the J-20 embodies much of what was implemented on the American fifth generation fighters. The main Chinese pride in this regard is its own "stealth" technology, as well as the creation of its own aircraft engines. But so far, the bulk of the J-20 fleet in China is equipped with Russian-made engines.

Fighters J-20 of the PRC have a considerable number of shortcomings. One of them at the moment is very limited maneuverability. In terms of maneuverability, the Chinese fifth generation is clearly inferior to the Russian Su-57.

About the Chinese J-20 fighter, technology and design:

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  1. OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 4 January 2021 12: 04
    -1
    Aviation viewing is a wonderful channel with excellent materials. I watch it and SkyShips regularly and with pleasure.
    1. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 4 January 2021 13: 26
      +1
      I fully support it. Competently, accessible and good shooting.
  2. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 4 January 2021 12: 05
    -3
    The United States is considered the ancestor of fifth generation fighters
    It depends on who is counting. repeat
    About the Chinese fighter J-20. One of them at the moment is very limited maneuverability.
    A duck will not become a falcon, like a penguin, no matter how much they fly. request
    1. aleksejkabanets
      aleksejkabanets 4 January 2021 12: 39
      +2
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      It depends on who is counting.

      Maybe I missed something, but the first stealth fighters weren't made in the USA?
      1. Mavrikiy
        Mavrikiy 4 January 2021 12: 52
        -6
        Quote: aleksejkabanets
        Maybe I missed something, but the first stealth fighters weren't made in the USA?
        Perhaps they missed, a lot of information. For you wiki hi :
        The search for the appearance of a fifth-generation fighter began in the mid-1970s in the USSR and the United States, when fourth-generation vehicles - such as the Su-27, MiG-29, F-14 and F-15 - were just taking their first steps. Leading industry research centers and design bureaus were involved in the work. Fifth generation fighters have elements of stealth technology for stealth, but are not entirely that way.
        1. aleksejkabanets
          aleksejkabanets 4 January 2021 13: 05
          -4
          Quote: Mavrikiy
          The search for the appearance of a fifth-generation fighter began in the mid-1970s in the USSR and the United States, when fourth-generation vehicles such as the Su-27, MiG-29, F-14 and F-15 were just taking their first steps. Leading industry research centers and design bureaus were involved in the work. Fifth generation fighters have elements of stealth technology for stealth, but they are not completely such.

          Please tell me a fifth generation fighter made in the USSR. This is, firstly, and secondly, how can the current Russian Federation be proud of the achievements of the USSR, when it only does what it pours mud on the USSR, and destroyed all the achievements of the USSR, such as free education and free medicine? The current Russian Federation had nothing to do with the achievements of the USSR, does not have and cannot have.
          1. Vladimir Mashkov
            Vladimir Mashkov 5 January 2021 12: 11
            -1
            Anyone else, but I don't like this Chinese fighter: it's too long, somewhat awkward and ugly (and beautiful planes fly well! smile). The J-20 is said to have limited maneuverability and a weak propulsion system. The Su-57 is clearly losing.
      2. Andrey Yuryevich
        Andrey Yuryevich 4 January 2021 13: 18
        -2
        Quote: aleksejkabanets
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        It depends on who is counting.

        Maybe I missed something, but the first stealth fighters weren't made in the USA?

        in the USSR. It was invented by our compatriot, Pyotr Yakovlevich Ufimtsev.
        1. The eye of the crying
          The eye of the crying 4 January 2021 13: 19
          +2
          Ufimtsev developed a mathematical apparatus. And the first stealth fighter was built by the Americans.
        2. aleksejkabanets
          aleksejkabanets 4 January 2021 13: 34
          -8
          Quote: Andrey Yurievich
          in the USSR. It was invented by our compatriot, Pyotr Yakovlevich Ufimtsev.

          Alas, the Russian Federation is not the USSR.
          1. El Chuvachino
            El Chuvachino 4 January 2021 14: 35
            +4
            RF is another form of Russia. The state project is the same as the USSR and the Russian Empire before it. The legacy of the USSR is also ours.
            1. aleksejkabanets
              aleksejkabanets 4 January 2021 14: 42
              -8
              Quote: El Chuvachino
              RF is another form of Russia. The state project is the same as the USSR and the Russian Empire before it. The legacy of the USSR is also ours.

              Let's not confuse "soft" with "warm". You do it as if the Vlasovites came to power in 1945 and began to brag about the successes of industrialization, saying that they had raised the industry. RF has nothing to do with the achievements of the USSR.
              1. El Chuvachino
                El Chuvachino 4 January 2021 15: 20
                +2
                If grandma had eggs, she would be grandpa. In other words, the story has no subjunctive mood. A country is primarily its people. Government projects have changed, but the people remain the same.
                Quote: aleksejkabanets
                RF has nothing to do with the achievements of the USSR.

                This is your delusion or dreams, I do not know what else those who draw such parallels with the Vlasovites can dream about. The Russian Federation is not only directly related, it is also the only legal heir and successor to the achievements of the USSR. Including for those debts and obligations that she assumed after the collapse of the USSR. This is what is called a fact.
                1. aleksejkabanets
                  aleksejkabanets 4 January 2021 15: 41
                  -8
                  Quote: El Chuvachino
                  The Russian Federation is not only directly related, it is also the only legal heir and successor to the achievements of the USSR.

                  I already wrote to you that you are confusing "soft" with "warm".
                  Quote: El Chuvachino
                  A country is primarily its people.

                  Not entirely true. Ukrainians, Russians and Belarusians are essentially one people, but our countries are different. And you know perfectly well who divided our people.
                  Quote: El Chuvachino
                  This is your delusion or dreams, I do not know what else those who draw such parallels with the Vlasovites can dream about.

                  I will try to give an example that is more accessible for your understanding. Tell the current state of Egypt can be proud of the knowledge that the ancient Egyptians used to build the pyramids? And can today's state of Italy be proud of the victories of Scipio Africanus, for example?
                  1. El Chuvachino
                    El Chuvachino 4 January 2021 16: 01
                    -1
                    Quote: aleksejkabanets
                    I already wrote to you that you are confusing "soft" with "warm".

                    You write nonsense regularly, but that doesn't mean you have to repeat them.

                    Quote: aleksejkabanets
                    Ukrainians, Russians and Belarusians are essentially one people, but our countries are different.

                    Russia is not only a people of Russians, Belarusians and Ukrainians. In the form of the USSR, the people were multinational, in the form of Russia they remained the same. Territories with parts of the population come and go, then come back. The name of the state, its political system may change, but our multinational people was and remains the same.
                    Quote: aleksejkabanets
                    Tell the present state of Egypt can be proud of the knowledge that the ancient Egyptians used to build the pyramids? And can today's state of Italy be proud of the victories of Scipio Africanus, for example?

                    Why didn't you ask about the era of dinosaurs?
                    Soviet-born developers, scientists and other people living in Russia today who contributed to science under the Soviets, can you be proud of progress and achievements? They can. Can we be proud of them? We can. They were, are and will be ours. Fell asleep in one state, woke up in another. The USSR is our history and our heritage. When I say us, I am talking about Russia, which took on this burden, unlike others.

                    PS
                    You write about "warm" with "soft", but they themselves sat in their own puddle. Indeed, just between the populations of ancient Egypt and modern Egpit there is nothing in common. Today these are the Arabs who once invaded this territory long ago and really have nothing to do with the building of the pyramids, Egyptian culture and everything else. Your example is generally here neither to the village nor to the city. Please stop talking nonsense.
                    1. aleksejkabanets
                      aleksejkabanets 4 January 2021 16: 26
                      -4
                      Quote: El Chuvachino
                      When I say us, I am talking about Russia, which took on this burden, unlike others.

                      When I talk about us, I mean the people that inhabit Russia. The people of the entire former USSR can be proud of the achievements of the USSR. The authorities of Russia, like other "states" that emerged on the territory of the USSR, are involved in the collapse of the USSR and squander, plunder its heritage. How can they be proud of the USSR? This is what I wrote about.
                      Quote: El Chuvachino
                      You write about "warm" with "soft", but they themselves sat in their own puddle. Indeed, just between the populations of ancient Egypt and modern Egpit there is nothing in common. Today these are the Arabs, when they invaded this territory long ago. Your example is generally here neither to the village nor to the city. Please stop talking nonsense.

                      reread carefully
                      Quote: aleksejkabanets
                      I will try to give an example that is more accessible for your understanding. Tell the current state of Egypt can be proud of the knowledge that the ancient Egyptians used to build the pyramids? And can today's state of Italy be proud of the victories of Scipio Africanus, for example?

                      Where did I use the word "population" or the word "people"? I used the word "state". Or do you think it's the same thing? I gave these examples because the example with Vlasov was incomprehensible to you, although it is more accurate. But I see you are not something to understand, you do not know how to read it carefully.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. aleksejkabanets
                        aleksejkabanets 4 January 2021 21: 21
                        -1
                        Quote: El Chuvachino
                        I froze stupidity, and admit it.

                        Endless nonsense while you are.
                        Quote: El Chuvachino
                        It is unacceptable, just as in the case of Vlasov: not only is the example fantastic and meaningless, but it does not change the essence in the same way, because Vlasov and his gang are not a people.

                        The example with Vlasov is just very indicative, since in power (that is, they run the state apparatus) people carry the same ideology, preach the same values, and have chosen the same economic model as Vlasov. And yes, the state flag is the same as that of Vlasov, the flag of the provisional government. And yes you are right, they are not people.
                        Quote: El Chuvachino
                        And the state is also a society, or rather its political form.

                        "The state is a political form of organization of society in a certain territory" is Wikipedia. Personally, I like another definition more, it is more accurate "The state is an apparatus of violence in the hands of the ruling class" by V.I. Lenin. Both the first and second definitions indicate that this is not a society at all.
                        Quote: El Chuvachino
                        If power was meant, then you need to express yourself more correctly and speak specifically - power. But in this sense, this example is just as unacceptable, because we are talking about the people.

                        As you could understand from the definitions, the state is power, in your understanding of the word. And show me where I spoke of the people?

                        Quote: El Chuvachino
                        Oooh, well it started. As the USSR, so the people, and as Russia, so we switch to power.

                        The USSR, and even the late Brezhnevsky, can be called a people's state. And the Russian Federation can only be called a state of the corrupt comprador oligarchy, which hang memorial plaques to Manergein, erect a monument to Krasnov, and export stolen capital to NATO countries. Can it be called a people's state?
    2. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 4 January 2021 13: 28
      0
      F117 ... 1st, F22 second, F35 third ... and at the same time -J20 and Su57 ...
      1. OgnennyiKotik
        OgnennyiKotik 4 January 2021 13: 36
        -4
        The F117 is not a fighter, it is a bomber.
        For that matter F22, YF-23, F35A / B / C, X-32
    3. Radiator
      Radiator 5 January 2021 01: 49
      +1
      You missed everything. Stealth is not a 5th generation aircraft.
  3. aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 4 January 2021 12: 44
    -2
    Quote: Mavrikiy
    About the Chinese fighter J-20. One of them at the moment is very limited maneuverability.
    A duck will not become a falcon, like a penguin, no matter how much they fly.

    It is simply stupid to underestimate the power of Chinese industry today.
    1. Doccor18
      Doccor18 4 January 2021 13: 18
      0
      Quote: aleksejkabanets
      Quote: Mavrikiy
      About the Chinese fighter J-20. One of them at the moment is very limited maneuverability.
      A duck will not become a falcon, like a penguin, no matter how much they fly.

      It is simply stupid to underestimate the power of Chinese industry today.

      But you should not overestimate either.
      The Chinese Air Force does not even reach the Soviet level of the late 80s ...
      There is no national bomber, strike, or fighter aviation. And where would the PLA air force be, if not the help of the USSR / Russia ..?
      1. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 4 January 2021 13: 30
        0
        Where is the USSR? And where is China now and what is it doing in aviation and rocketry ... they plan, invest, build. On avionics they overtook us ..... for the rest they are catching up. The US is catching up in the fleet.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 4 January 2021 14: 09
          +6
          Quote: Zaurbek
          On avionics they overtook us

          I doubt it. So far, all the superiority is the use of serial AFAR, with unknown performance characteristics. and it is far from a fact that in their capabilities they are superior to the same Irbis. As for the OLS, I have never heard that the Chinese have anything at least equal to us. Electronic warfare? there is no reason to believe that they have it better, etc.
          1. Zaurbek
            Zaurbek 4 January 2021 14: 22
            -2
            There are no ols on F35, for example, but they do not complain. It is being replaced by several optical and IR sensors. And about AFAR ... judging by the fact that the Chinese began to put AFAR on J10 and J11 and FT15 block3 .... they have a serial production of such radars. Not in the Russian Federation yet.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 4 January 2021 14: 58
              +6
              Quote: Zaurbek
              There are no ols on F35, for example, but they do not complain. It is being replaced by several optical and IR sensors.

              Wrong. Optical and IR sensors cannot replace the OLS, since there is no important component - a laser rangefinder-target illuminator. Without knowing the distance, you will not be able to give a sane control center for missiles, and there will be a choice - either to shoot "somewhere in that direction", or to turn on the radar, unmasking the plane.
              So if you hang a laser designator on the F-35, it will be the same OLS. In the meantime, he is not there - the American pilot loses a significant part of the capabilities that the OLS provides.
              Quote: Zaurbek
              And about AFAR ... judging by the fact that the Chinese began to put AFAR on J10 and J11 and FT15 block3 ...

              The question, as I said, is in the performance characteristics.
              1. nks
                nks 5 January 2021 11: 38
                0
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                Wrong. Optical and IR sensors cannot replace the OLS, since there is no important component - a laser rangefinder-target illuminator. Without knowing the distance, you will not be able to give a sane control center for missiles, and there will be a choice - either to shoot "somewhere in that direction", or to turn on the radar, unmasking the plane.


                Optical (IR, by the way, also applies to them) are an integral part of the OLS. Using a laser rangefinder, you also run the risk of finding yourself, besides, the maximum range of its use is ~ 30 km (yes, even 40). Whereas modern OLS allow detecting a fighter-type target at a distance of ~ 100 km. There are various methods for passively determining the range to the target using DataFusion, including as part of a group.
                1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
                  Andrei from Chelyabinsk 5 January 2021 15: 47
                  0
                  Quote: nks
                  Using a laser rangefinder, you also run the risk of finding yourself, besides, the maximum range of its use is ~ 30 km (yes, even 40). Whereas modern OLS allow detecting a fighter-type target at a distance of ~ 100 km.

                  Yes. And yet, in many situations, this solves.
            2. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 5 January 2021 02: 26
              +2
              The F-35 has an OLS. But on the F-22 it is not.
              1. Zaurbek
                Zaurbek 5 January 2021 09: 01
                0
                Is this a ball like on Su27? Mobile?
                1. voyaka uh
                  voyaka uh 5 January 2021 10: 48
                  -1
                  This is a polyhedron. It has optics. On the Su-57 it is round,
                  which is bad for stealth.
                  1. Zaurbek
                    Zaurbek 5 January 2021 10: 52
                    0
                    Judging by the location, it is about the same as the aiming container ... and is directed to the lower hemisphere.
                    1. voyaka uh
                      voyaka uh 5 January 2021 11: 07
                      0
                      The optical sight in aerial combat, of course, can
                      help in detecting enemy aircraft.
                      In a narrow angle, like a rifle with a telescopic sight.
                      But the explosive missile is led to the enemy aircraft by radar.
                      If the optics see, but the radar does not? I noticed, but you can't shoot.
                      It is unclear how this will affect air battles ... recourse
                    2. Zaurbek
                      Zaurbek 5 January 2021 11: 10
                      0
                      Well, where the optics sees .... the radar will see for sure. There is something up to 50 km maximum. I read that it works well on the ground, but the 2nd OLS was put down only on the MiG35S ...
                    3. voyaka uh
                      voyaka uh 5 January 2021 11: 16
                      +1
                      "Well, where the optics sees .... the radar will see exactly" ///
                      ----
                      It turns out not. American pilots F-18 (he has a strong
                      optical system) said that when the OLS clearly distinguished
                      F-35, the radar screen was blank.
                    4. Zaurbek
                      Zaurbek 5 January 2021 11: 19
                      0
                      I have not heard this ...... Doesn't see the usual radar or does not AFAR already see it? Well, medium-range missiles with two types of seeker ... He sees the OLS, he will see the seeker.
                    5. voyaka uh
                      voyaka uh 5 January 2021 11: 32
                      +1
                      AFAR has no advantage over PFAR in stealth detection.
                      AFAR gives another: the ability to work in several workers
                      modes simultaneously.
                      In the seeker, rockets are also a radar. Does not see the radar of the aircraft, does not
                      will also see the rocket radar.
                    6. Zaurbek
                      Zaurbek 5 January 2021 11: 47
                      0
                      Can't see the F-35 Slit or Afar? Well, there is a GOS with both IR and UV and TV matrices - medium range.
                    7. voyaka uh
                      voyaka uh 5 January 2021 12: 45
                      -1
                      Neither one nor the other. You send waves - they are either reflected to the sides, or absorbed. And what comes back is within the hindrances.
          2. OgnennyiKotik
            OgnennyiKotik 5 January 2021 11: 25
            -1
            Quote: voyaka uh
            The optical sight in aerial combat, of course, can
            help in detecting enemy aircraft.

            There is a whole area of ​​IT "Machine vision", which is actually well developed. It is more than realistic to write a program that will detect airplanes using a video stream, the only question is in computer power.
  • mvg
    mvg 4 January 2021 15: 05
    0
    Well, at least the fact that they also began to put their avionics on the Su-27Mkk. Russian CPU of 2002-2004 level and the Chinese are Intel's competitors. Like the rest of the components.
    AFAR is standard on J-11/15/10 of the latest modifications.
    The PRC has many technologies inaccessible to the RF. What can we boast about?
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 17: 48
      +3
      Quote: mvg
      What can we boast about?


      The Chinese do not have engines comparable to the Al-41, this time. Secondly, the presence of an AFAR antenna array at the radar does not mean anything. The performance characteristics are banally unknown.
    2. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 4 January 2021 19: 25
      +2
      Quote: mvg
      Well, at least the fact that they also began to put their avionics on the Su-27Mkk.

      "Own" does not mean "the best"
      Quote: mvg
      Russian CPU of 2002-2004 level and the Chinese are Intel's competitors.

      to the point ...
      Quote: mvg
      AFAR is standard on J-11/15/10 of the latest modifications.

      Moreover, it is not known whether they hold out in their performance characteristics to our PFAR.
      Quote: mvg
      The PRC has many technologies inaccessible to the Russian Federation.

      Yes, but clearly not in the field of military aviation
      Quote: mvg
      What can we boast about?

      Engines very advanced PFAR, OLS, electronic warfare, etc. etc.
      1. mvg
        mvg 5 January 2021 09: 30
        -1
        Andrew, stop it. How to create something without your own component base? The PRC has engines. WS-10/15/18. In a year or two they will bring it to mind.
        In aviation logic, we have always lagged behind the Americans, French, British, Japanese, Israel. I see no prerequisites for a change. Neither its OS, nor the programming language. No specialists.
        Well, in aviation, why are the Chinese worse?
        For 10'15 years in the world leaders.
        Well, the electronic warfare did not show itself in any way in Georgia Syria Libya Armenia
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 5 January 2021 19: 05
          0
          Quote: mvg
          How to create something without your own component base?

          Yes, excellent. What kind of youthful maximalism - if ours is not the best in the world, then we are losers and can do nothing. We HAVE our own component base, and its performance is quite enough for solving basic problems.
          Quote: mvg
          In aviation logic, we have always lagged behind the Americans, French, British, Japanese, Israel.

          Yeah. From the British, with their antediluvian Harrier, whose radar did not see against the background of the sea, from the Japanese and Israelis, in general, in fact, do not have their own aircraft industry ...
          I understand, the holidays, and all that, but still you should not lean so much on alcohol. I also want to remind you that the Soviet air defense systems, when they were more or less competently used, quite successfully brought down American aircraft with much like advanced avionics. It is a fact.
          Quote: mvg
          Neither its OS, nor the programming language. No specialists.

          PIFAGOR, EL-76, OSMO, OVSEI, PROSE, YAMB, Sigma .... damn it, I struggle to remember the programming languages ​​created in the USSR. And about our specialists - do not write about what you do not know, Russian programmers are one of the strongest in the world.
          Quote: mvg
          Well, the electronic warfare did not show itself in any way in Georgia

          Interestingly, who crashed the Georgian air defense? :))))) Do you even know how the air defense was pressed on 08.08.08? It seems that apart from the list of losses, you know nothing about this at all.
          Quote: mvg
          The PRC has engines. WS-10/15/18. In a year or two they will bring it to mind.

          I have heard this song for at least 15 years. But things are still there, and still create a copy of the Al-31, our engine of forty years ago, if not more, China cannot
          1. mvg
            mvg 5 January 2021 23: 29
            +1
            The Yak-38 had nothing at all. And Harrier successfully fought with land vehicles
            Japan F-2, with its own radar. Anti-submarine aircraft, not inferior to Poseidon. Civil and transport boards. Demonstrator of the 5th generation.
            Israel is successfully installing its avionics on American vehicles. He adds software to the F-35. It even upgrades the boards of the USSR / RF. Their Lavi flies under the Chinese flag.
            The software languages ​​are C ++ and Pascal. Assembler. All software is written on them.
            Even our companies prefer to attract dancing Indians. Domestic decent software unit. Compass and 1C come to mind.
            Air defense of Georgia was thundered in number, having lost a bunch of cars. Plus the SU-34 killed the radar station that covered all of Georgia.
            WS-10/18 has been around for a long time. China not only copies, but also improves performance characteristics. Replaced AL-31, D-30 and so jumped through a couple of generations. Make their own B-2, J-20/31. Obviously with an eye to their engines. Replaced and RD-93
            And with alcohol, it's normal. And he didn't drink at the corporate party. On NG there are a couple of bottles of shampoo and a bottle of horse meat. 100 kg is normal.
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 6 January 2021 11: 44
              0
              Quote: mvg
              The Yak-38 had nothing at all.

              Uh-huh. But they had MiGs, Su, our numerous fighters.
              Quote: mvg
              Japan F-2, with its own radar.

              Uh-huh. A copy of the F-16 on the same American engine, and a self-developed radar with unknown performance characteristics. Stunned, what progress ... Do you think THIS is better than our avionics?
              Quote: mvg
              Israel is successfully installing its avionics on American vehicles. He adds software to the F-35. It even upgrades the boards of the USSR / RF. Their Lavi flies under the Chinese flag.

              Doesn't fly. Chinese fighters - never Lavi.
              Quote: mvg
              The software languages ​​are C ++ and Pascal. Assembler. All software is written on them.

              You don't understand the elementary things. "All software" is written on them, because this software extends to the architecture of modern PCs. And we have our own architecture, which is radically different from the same Intel. Accordingly, completely different programming languages ​​are needed there, but they will never become widespread, since they are banal for existing PCs. And we have developed these languages, and they are, just their use is very narrow - the same military, for example.
              Quote: mvg
              Air defense of Georgia was thundered in number, having lost a bunch of cars.

              The losses were rampant when, at the initial stage, they poked at the Su-25 and Tu-22, ignoring the Georgian air defense. When they realized that this would not work, the Georgian air defense was crushed (roughly) with three Su-34s.
              Quote: mvg
              WS-10/18 has long been put in place.

              And they are a head inferior to the Fl-31F1 in terms of resource
              Quote: mvg
              China not only copies, but also improves performance characteristics. Replaced AL-31, D-30 and so jumped through a couple of generations.

              They did not make it to Al-31F1. Yes, they created engines with more thrust, but they fall apart even faster than the previous ones.
      2. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 5 January 2021 11: 23
        +2
        China makes the whole range of protected microcircuits, optics, Western-level thermal imaging matrices, LCD matrices, Helmet for the 5th generation ... and much more. They have little experience specifically in aircraft and engine design. But huge money is being invested in this. It is enough to look at the structure and its rate of development on their car. Moreover, both a truck and a car.
        1. Alex777
          Alex777 5 January 2021 12: 24
          0
          China makes the whole range of protected microcircuits, optics, Western-level thermal imaging matrices, LCD matrices, Helmet for the 5th generation ... and much more.

          Made in China. Many things. What we got ready-made.
          But there is a catch: they are not given the opportunity to create an architecture of complex systems. And without this, you will not fly far / go. wink
          And they try to attract Russians for such work even in the States. Because they do it, but the Chinese and the same Indians do not.
          Therefore, the alliance between Russia and China is a nightmare for the United States.
          Some can come up with anything they want, while others can build. hi
          1. mvg
            mvg 5 January 2021 23: 32
            +2
            China has developed a national percentage, logic. Where would he get architecture? Yes, they did not start from a "clean" slate. But now they are self-sufficient.
            1. Alex777
              Alex777 6 January 2021 12: 19
              0
              I am not going to belittle the achievements of China.
              China has developed a national interest, logic.

              On the other hand, you acknowledge what I said:
              Yes, they did not start from a "clean" sheet.

              But now they are self-sufficient.

              Now, if they are not self-sufficient, then they have a lot, this is so.
              The question is - will they be able to develop further what they have?
              Especially in conditions of excommunication from the state developments. hi
            2. mvg
              mvg 6 January 2021 15: 49
              0
              I do not know technologies that China does not have.
              And there is a lot that the USSR lost or did not master. Dozens.
              PS: We lost a lot in the 90s or did not master it, like electronics.
              I do not believe that in Military Affairs, there are no Chinese details. We don't do too much.
          2. SovAr238A
            SovAr238A 6 January 2021 13: 27
            +2
            Quote: mvg
            China has developed a national percentage, logic. Where would he get architecture? Yes, they did not start from a "clean" slate. But now they are self-sufficient.


            Moreover, all really competent technical universities in the United States are filled with Chinese students who, in reality, with a 100% guarantee, return back to China to work ...
            and MIT and Berkeley and Stanford and all-all-all ...

            And if you remember, then all the current most modern military trends and technologies were tested 20-10 years ago on DARPA programs, designed specifically for students and university teams - it is clear that the Chinese already have an understanding: "what to do and how to do" .. ...
            They have already seen.
          3. mvg
            mvg 6 January 2021 15: 55
            +1
            My nephew is studying at a prestigious military university near St. Petersburg. Not stupid, but sometimes secretly asks ale questions. They are mainly engaged in physical culture. No programming or missile parsing.
            PS: Maybe these are the first courses. The Institute is closed. But the level of training is low. My opinion
  • aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 4 January 2021 13: 31
    -1
    Quote: Doccor18
    The Chinese Air Force does not even reach the Soviet level of the late 80s ...
    There is no national bomber, strike, or fighter aviation.

    A very bold statement, but even if this were so, then look at their growth rates, but they are not comparable to Russian ones. After all, even their average salary a few years ago was much lower than ours, and today it is already higher. Their fight against corruption is very effective, to put it mildly. They have great potential.
    Quote: Doccor18
    And where would the PLA air force be, if not the help of the USSR / Russia ..?

    What does it matter today? Critically, they don't depend on anyone.
    1. Doccor18
      Doccor18 4 January 2021 14: 02
      +4
      A very bold statement, but even if it were so ..

      Tu-160 / 22M3, Mig-31, Su-27/33/24, as well as projects that have been hacked to death by "lovers of making friends with democrats": Tu-22M4, Mig-29M, Mig-31M, Su-37, Su-39 , Mig-1.42, etc. The Chinese can only dream of all this now ...
      ... then look at their growth rates ...

      But this is worthy of respect, and sometimes it is simply amazing.
      ... they are not comparable to Russian ones.

      Comparison, in this regard, is incorrect.
      Their fight against corruption is very effective, to put it mildly. They have great potential.

      I absolutely agree.
      What does it matter today? Critically, they don't depend on anyone.

      There is still dependence. Since the pragmatic Chinese are still buying our air defense systems and fighters of the latest modifications. I will not be surprised that a contract will be signed on the Su-57 when it is brought to series.
      1. aleksejkabanets
        aleksejkabanets 4 January 2021 14: 24
        -1
        Quote: Doccor18
        Tu-160 / 22M3, Mig-31, Su-27/33/24, as well as projects that hacked to death ...

        I agree on almost everything. Strictly speaking, I wrote a post more on the fact that any "shapkozakidatelstvo" in relation to the Chinese is considered criminal. And many here on the site, for some reason, do not take them seriously.
        1. Doccor18
          Doccor18 4 January 2021 14: 27
          0
          ... any "shapkozakidatstvo" in relation to the Chinese is considered criminal.

          I absolutely agree with you.
      2. Zaurbek
        Zaurbek 4 January 2021 14: 25
        -2
        Now all over the world, combat aviation is being rationally unified .... and specialized machines such as Mig31 and Su34 / 24 drop out ... and all this is changed to machines of the Su30 type. With powerful AFAR and sighting containers.
        1. Doccor18
          Doccor18 4 January 2021 14: 50
          -1
          Of course, the Su-30 / Su-57 are quite capable of replacing all the diversity of past generations.
          Quote: Zaurbek
          Now all over the world, combat aviation is being rationally unified .... and specialized machines such as Mig31 and Su34 / 24 drop out ... and all this is changed to machines of the Su30 type. With powerful AFAR and sighting containers.


          However, inexpensive light fighters are also needed (since you can not even count on several hundred Su-57s, and 100 machines for the whole Mother Russia is not even funny), attack aircraft (or strike UAVs with comparable characteristics), bombers, and much more. And what would have prevented the Air Force with a hundred or two MiG-31M interceptors with the Zaslon-M radar and 6 air defense missile systems ..? These machines had and still have tremendous modernization potential.
          After all, even the richest Democrats have never aligned themselves with the F22 ....
          1. Zaurbek
            Zaurbek 4 January 2021 16: 16
            -1
            The moment is finite ... Su35 has the best radar, long-range missiles have been tested on it, it is mass-produced ... and its pilots are universal ....... And Su35 (30) when you need a fighter, and when you need a striker ...
          2. SovAr238A
            SovAr238A 6 January 2021 13: 39
            +3
            Quote: Doccor18
            And what would have prevented the Air Force with a hundred or two MiG-31M interceptors with the Zaslon-M radar and 6 air defense missile systems ..? These machines had and still have tremendous modernization potential.


            Once again, I repeat to everyone the same common truth.
            War is never won by soldiers and generals.
            The role of heroes in war is negligible!
            The war is won only by the rear services and logistics!
            Stocks and reserves!

            Have a "heroic highly specialized aircraft" ??? This is a really crazy idea.
            such an idea would just ruin our country ...
            Once again.
            How it happened with the USSR!

            Train several hundred pilots, sharpened only for interception.
            Train thousands of aerodrome specialists trained for only one type of aircraft.
            Tens of thousands of support vehicles.
            Hundreds of enterprises for 1 type of aircraft.
            Millions of tons of fuel.
            The maintenance of such a zoo in peacetime leads to the complete degradation of the state.
            The impoverishment of the state.
            The impoverished state does not collect taxes and falls into full swing.
            And he will no longer have money later, even for the repair of one aircraft, and the salary for one pilot.
            Look at the example of Argentina.
            I want to, but I can't.

            Universalization is a global principle of reducing the cost of maintaining the army.
            the same parts.
            the same training programs.
            the same educational institutions.
            the same instructors and pilots.
            the same machines and equipment of the BAO.
            the same production facilities.
            the same fuel.
            the same airfields.
            Do not go broke in peacetime on your army - priceless!
            This means that the state is full and there are wolves ...
            And when the time comes, there will be who and what to fight and the enterprises will ...
            1. Doccor18
              Doccor18 6 January 2021 13: 57
              -1
              Universalization is a global principle of reducing the cost of maintaining the army ...

              Universalization is the right, beautiful word. But how to translate it into reality? To create an aircraft that will be equally good at intercepting enemy missile forces and fighters, working on land and water, having a decent combat load, having a significant speed and a large combat radius ... Can all this be embodied in a single platform? If possible, then this is a breakthrough in the aircraft industry ... Does the Su-57 meet all these criteria? Perhaps, but what will the cost of this versatile aerial superfighter be? And how many of these machines can the industry build and transfer to the Air Force? And will this number ensure the country's defense capability? These are tough questions that few people have answers to ...
              1. SovAr238A
                SovAr238A 7 January 2021 17: 42
                +3
                Quote: Doccor18
                Universalization is a global principle of reducing the cost of maintaining the army ...

                Universalization is the right, beautiful word. But how to translate it into reality? To create an aircraft that will be equally good at intercepting enemy missile forces and fighters, working on land and water, having a decent combat load, having a significant speed and a large combat radius ... Can all this be embodied in a single platform? If possible, then this is a breakthrough in the aircraft industry ... Does the Su-57 meet all these criteria? Perhaps, but what will the cost of this versatile aerial superfighter be? And how many of these machines can the industry build and transfer to the Air Force? And will this number ensure the country's defense capability? These are tough questions that few people have answers to ...



                There is the experience of "small" countries ...
                Who were puzzled by similar questions back in the 70s.

                No super fighter needed.
                The pace of development of technology, as in sports, always suggests that the leadership of one - has a short period.
                and the creation and subsequent operation of "the very-very-very" is prohibitively expensive.
      3. mvg
        mvg 4 January 2021 15: 19
        0
        We bought a squadron "Aggressor" on the sly and to study the S-400. And the planes and weapons have long been their own. J-20 is already 60 pcs. J-10C / D about 300. J-11D about that. What can the Russian Federation boast about? One Su-57? A hundred Su-35?
  • Free wind
    Free wind 5 January 2021 06: 37
    -2
    None of our soldiers spoke in Damansky, but where would those Chinese be without our machine guns.
  • Bad_gr
    Bad_gr 4 January 2021 17: 37
    +3
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    It is simply stupid to underestimate the power of Chinese industry today.

    So we're not talking about the industry, but about a specific aircraft (J-20), which, in my opinion, should not be called the 5th generation at all. I will not talk about coverage (what I don’t know, I don’t know).
    In appearance.
    The "Duck" scheme - no longer fits well with the "Stealth" layout
    The edges of the wings should be parallel, which is partially not observed in the J-20

    The nearby engines are like the F-22, but the vertical tail is spaced apart, like the Su-57.
    In the F-22, the engines are side by side, so they do not work in a confusion, only synchronously up or synchronously down, they drive the exhaust next to the vertical tail, which allows them to operate even at low aircraft speeds.
    In the Su-57, the engines are spaced apart and have the ability to operate in a chaotic manner, which makes it possible to control the aircraft even at zero speed.
    J-20, even if you put engines with a variable thrust vector, they will not work properly:
    they are too close to work in confusion, and in order to use control like an American, the J-20 has too wide a vertical tail.
    At the moment, in terms of size, it is the largest of those who claim to be the 5th generation, but fly with our old engines, therefore, their claims about the large range of this aircraft are questionable. It's not worth talking about supersonic, without afterburner.
    1. halflife3
      halflife3 5 January 2021 09: 26
      +4
      Your analysis of parallel angles is incorrect. This is the right way to find parallel corners of stealth planes.


      Su-57 and J-20 are 5th generation fighters, developed according to different doctrines.
      The Su-57 is focused on air combat, while the J-20 is focused on long-range interception.
      The duck layout can be designed for stealth. This does not necessarily compromise the invisibility of the front hemisphere if it is locked in place. Thrusters with thrust vector can replace pitch control when the duck is locked. Duck wings can be unlocked during air combat.
      The J-20 can have two combat modes: "air combat mode" and "intercept mode". In "intercept mode" the duck wings will be locked and the aircraft will use the thrust vector for pitch control. In "air combat" the duck's wings will be unlocked for more maneuverability. Stealth becomes irrelevant in aerial combat, because in order for aerial combat to take place, both opponents must be aware of each other's presence.
      good
  • svp67
    svp67 4 January 2021 12: 21
    +1
    Today, only three countries in the world are capable of creating their own fifth generation fighters. We are talking about Russia, China and the United States.
    The number of countries in this "club" is limited, but Japan, the Republic of Korea and India have already submitted "applications" to enter it, let's see which of them can do it
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 4 January 2021 12: 40
      -2
      England, France and Germany never left this club. The question of necessity.
      Brit and Turks make TF-X which will undoubtedly be the 5th generation.
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 12: 50
        +2
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        Brit and Turks make TF-X which will undoubtedly be the 5th generation.


        In 20 years, maybe, but very unlikely.
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 4 January 2021 12: 58
          -3
          BAE Systems has vast experience and experience in creating fighters, Rolls-Royce has excellent jet engines, Turkey has great needs for modern aircraft and access (like the Britons) to the markets of Islamic countries. Success is guaranteed.
          1. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 13: 21
            +5
            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            BAE Systems has vast experience and experience in creating fighters, Rolls-Royce has excellent jet engines,


            BAE has the latest independent developments - TCB Hawk and VTOL Harrier - an extremely special product + equity participation in the development and production of Typhoon. IMHO the maximum they are capable of repeating Eurofight with a bunch of new problems from a distance, similar to STELS and pushing it to suckers. Americans will not help because a competitor.

            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            Success guaranteed.

            Not at all.
            1. OgnennyiKotik
              OgnennyiKotik 4 January 2021 14: 04
              -6
              Quote: Cyril G ...
              BAE has the latest independent developments - TCB Hawk and VTOL Harrier

              Pure politics and some economics. Europe began to play in the European Union, and the old way of life was breaking down. England got tired of this game and they left it. Correspondingly, it is now changing its foreign and domestic policy. BAE could and does make the 5-6th generation, just as it could do Eurofighter on its own (and faster and more efficiently than in a consortium).
              1. Cyril G ...
                Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 17: 43
                +3
                Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                BAE, just as it could have done Eurofighter on its own (and faster and more efficiently than in a consortium), and now it can and is doing 5-6 generation.


                Competencies and skills are rapidly being lost. So it was more likely not to sneak ...
              2. Cyril G ...
                Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 21: 36
                +1
                By the way, if you think about it, Germany does not know how to use the word at all in modern fighters.
                So in the club 4+ и 5 only USA, Russia, France, China, EU. I don't consider Swedes. American engines - low frequency.
      2. svp67
        svp67 4 January 2021 13: 17
        +2
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        England, France and Germany never left this club.

        And what kind of aircraft of the 5th generation do they have?
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 4 January 2021 13: 24
          -3
          Rafale and Eurofighter are in no way inferior to the "5th generation" except for stealth. Eurofighter has the notorious cruising supersonic sound. Making a stealth glider is no problem for them. The question is not necessary.
          The 5th generation will be TF-X.
          1. svp67
            svp67 4 January 2021 13: 27
            +1
            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            Rafale and Eurofighter are in no way inferior to the "5th generation" except for stealth.

            No, but they are able to keep supersound without afterburner?
            Quote: OgnennyiKotik
            The question is not necessary.

            And therefore European countries are buying F-35
            1. OgnennyiKotik
              OgnennyiKotik 4 January 2021 13: 31
              -4
              Quote: svp67
              are able to keep supersound without afterburner?

              I wrote the same. Eurofighter keeps cruising supersonic without afterburner.
              Quote: svp67
              And therefore European countries are buying F-35

              It is cheap, of a different class and the F-35B has no analogues in the world.
              1. svp67
                svp67 4 January 2021 13: 59
                0
                Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                I wrote the same.

                And the Rafale?
                Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                It is cheap, of a different class and the F-35B has no analogues in the world.

                And these "giants" cannot create something like that. Then why not repeat the F-22, since it has already been recognized that such aircraft are needed in the Air Force to break through the same air defense system
                1. OgnennyiKotik
                  OgnennyiKotik 4 January 2021 14: 15
                  -3
                  Rafal doesn't. They believe that this aircraft is not needed.
                  Quote: svp67
                  Then why don't they repeat the F-22,

                  Why is it needed? He didn't even need the United States. It will be decommissioned earlier than the F-15.
                  These are completely different things that cannot and are not needed. Europe is not going to fight, Russia does not pose a threat, there are simply no others. A threat will appear and will build up troops and create a response to these threats.
                  1. svp67
                    svp67 4 January 2021 14: 20
                    +2
                    Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                    Russia poses no threat

                    Yes? They say something different
                    Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                    Europe is not going to fight,
                    But nevertheless she does it, in the same Libya.
                    Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                    A threat will appear and will build up troops and create a response to these threats.

                    Such an aircraft cannot be created in a day.
                    Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                    Even the United States did not need it. It will be written off earlier than the F-15.

                    I don’t think so. These aircraft have different capabilities. And even if the F-22 leaves, it will be replaced by the F-35, not the new F-15
                    1. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik 4 January 2021 14: 32
                      -3
                      Saying and doing different things.
                      There was and is a Civil War in Libya, European countries helped one of the parties. No more and no less.
                      The F-35 cannot replace the F-22, which are completely different aircraft. To replace the F-15/22, a new aircraft is being created under the NGAD program. At the same time, new F-15EX are being purchased.
                      In the 30s, the US Air Force will be armed with NGAD, F-35, F-15 fighters.
                    2. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik 4 January 2021 14: 37
                      0
                      By the way, a video about the F-15EX by the same author.
                  2. nks
                    nks 5 January 2021 00: 08
                    0
                    Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                    Rafal doesn't. They believe that this aircraft is not needed.

                    It has. And with "stealth" he also has all the rules
                2. OgnennyiKotik
                  OgnennyiKotik 5 January 2021 00: 48
                  -1
                  Quote: svp67
                  And the Rafale?

                  Misled can. Up to 1,4 M with 6 V-V missiles.
                  1. nks
                    nks 5 January 2021 11: 32
                    0
                    By the way, this is an example of only one of the configurations on which this feature was achieved. For example, there are references to the Raphael super cruise with 1 supersonic PTB (1250 liters) and 4 URVV. Those with at least a load of up to ~ 1,5t can super cruise
                    1. OgnennyiKotik
                      OgnennyiKotik 5 January 2021 12: 57
                      -1
                      The most interesting thing in Russian is hard to find this information. It is better to hait foreign equipment, rather than give objective information.
                      1. nks
                        nks 5 January 2021 13: 11
                        0
                        What's the problem with searching in foreign languages? Especially now in the era of online translators - whoever wants it finds it. I gave direct links, but in general they are in the English and French wiki about rafal
            2. Zaurbek
              Zaurbek 4 January 2021 14: 26
              -2
              Raphael definitely has a super sound without afterburner
              1. OgnennyiKotik
                OgnennyiKotik 4 January 2021 14: 37
                -2
                Quote: Zaurbek
                Raphael definitely has a super sound without afterburner

                Confused with Eurofighter
                1. Zaurbek
                  Zaurbek 4 January 2021 14: 42
                  -3
                  So both that and that
                  1. OgnennyiKotik
                    OgnennyiKotik 4 January 2021 14: 47
                    -2
                    And on cruising supersonic without afterburner from Rafale where is the information?
                    According to Eurofighter https://web.archive.org/web/20090815004539/http://www.eurofighter.at/austria/td_lu.asp
                    1. nks
                      nks 5 January 2021 00: 12
                      0
                      http://rafalefan.e-monsite.com/medias/files/fiche-rafale-le-bourget-2011.jpg
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. OgnennyiKotik
                        OgnennyiKotik 5 January 2021 00: 47
                        -1
                        OK. Thanks for the info.
          2. The eye of the crying
            The eye of the crying 4 January 2021 13: 43
            0
            Eurofighter is inferior at least to avionics. And, as they say, aerodynamics (the Eurofighter's glider took a long time and was difficult). And about "the absence of problems to make a stealth glider" can be said when the "stealth glider" will be. But not before.
            1. OgnennyiKotik
              OgnennyiKotik 4 January 2021 13: 48
              -3
              Depending on the modification (block). On the Austrian avionics at the 3rd generation level, the first samples of the 4th. On the extreme and pre-edge blocks, everything is ok.
              1. The eye of the crying
                The eye of the crying 4 January 2021 13: 54
                0
                Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                Depending on the modification.


                How many Eurofighters have already received AFAR? How many Raphales?

                Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                On extreme and pre-extreme modifications, everything is ok.


                "Everything is ok" does not mean that it is "not inferior" to the F-35.
    2. Machito
      Machito 4 January 2021 12: 43
      +3
      Have you forgotten Europa? They are already the sixth generation going to rivet. And then maybe they will immediately take up the seventh. What's small?
    3. Kuroneko
      Kuroneko 4 January 2021 13: 10
      +1
      Quote: svp67
      but Japan, the Republic of Korea and India have already submitted "applications" to enter it

      I bet on the Koreans. Well, with pleasure I will look at the songs and dances of the Indians. They still do not get along with Tejas, and an airplane is something like that by the standards of its generation, almost the worst.
    4. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 4 January 2021 13: 31
      -2
      Turkey is still Britain and Franco-Germany ......
    5. Doccor18
      Doccor18 4 January 2021 14: 09
      +1
      Quote: svp67
      Today, only three countries in the world are capable of creating their own fifth generation fighters. We are talking about Russia, China and the United States.
      The number of countries in this "club" is limited, but Japan, the Republic of Korea and India have already submitted "applications" to enter it, let's see which of them can do it

      Now, if Japanese and Korean specialists joined forces ... then the F35 could have a worthy competitor ... But do the "democrats" need this competitor? And I can't believe in the Indian project at all ...
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 4 January 2021 17: 10
        +1
        Quote: Doccor18
        Now, if Japanese and Korean specialists joined forces ... then the F35 could have a worthy competitor ...

        Japan. Fifth generation Mitsubishi X-2 Shinshin
        1. Doccor18
          Doccor18 4 January 2021 17: 51
          0
          So far, this is, so to speak, a "demonstrator of Japanese aviation ambitions", and not a full-fledged 5th generation fighter. 15 years of work, and it is still far from full-fledged combat use ...
          So he wrote that if the Japanese had teamed up with the Koreans, perhaps the project would have gone faster ...
      2. The eye of the crying
        The eye of the crying 5 January 2021 02: 40
        0
        Quote: Doccor18
        Now, if Japanese and Korean specialists joined forces ... then the F35 could have a worthy competitor ... But do the "democrats" need this competitor?


        You'd better ask if the Koreans are capable of uniting with the Japanese. And do both sides need it.
        1. Doccor18
          Doccor18 5 January 2021 17: 11
          -1
          Quote: Eye of the Crying
          Quote: Doccor18
          Now, if Japanese and Korean specialists joined forces ... then the F35 could have a worthy competitor ... But do the "democrats" need this competitor?


          You'd better ask if the Koreans are capable of uniting with the Japanese. And do both sides need it.

          If historically, then the Koreans, of course, resent their former oppressors. And if politically, then being the main allies of the United States in the region and geopolitical opponents of the PRC, the joint fighter project is not so unpromising. However, not everything in the world is decided precisely by pragmatism. And the USA F35 must be put somewhere ...
          1. The eye of the crying
            The eye of the crying 5 January 2021 19: 02
            0
            Quote: Doccor18
            However, not everything in the world is decided precisely by pragmatism.


            What are we talking about. However, the presence of "non-pragmatic" reasons makes the joint project questionable from the point of view of pragmatism repeat

            Quote: Doccor18
            And the US F35 needs to be put somewhere ...


            The US has no problem selling the F-35.
            1. Doccor18
              Doccor18 6 January 2021 09: 02
              -1
              The United States has no problem selling the F-35.

              If everyone starts to "design their own 5s", then ... problems will appear ...
              1. The eye of the crying
                The eye of the crying 6 January 2021 19: 20
                0
                May be. On the other hand, by the time others have made their fives, the F-35 may just be off the assembly line.
    6. mvg
      mvg 4 January 2021 15: 22
      0
      We don't count Europe? GenderGeyropes including Anglo-Saxons, Germans, Spaniards in Tempest project. And everything they need they have
      1. Kuroneko
        Kuroneko 4 January 2021 16: 23
        +2
        Quote: mvg
        And everything they need they have

        And Washington's interest in selling its F-35 to the vassals. Do you think he needs to create a European competitor?
        1. mvg
          mvg 5 January 2021 23: 51
          0
          Are there many F-15s in Europe? And the F-16/35 is also assembled in the EU. Holland, Italy. France generally has its own air force. Just like Sweden. There are also purely European cars, Typhoons, Tornadoes.
          Anglican Rolls-Royces are not worse in terms of technology F-119/135, like Snekma.
  • d4rkmesa
    d4rkmesa 4 January 2021 12: 43
    0
    "very limited maneuverability" - I do not think that it is worse than the Raptor, except that with the current engines, high-altitude maneuvers should be given to it worse. Still, even the Soviet Mig MFI was conceived to be super-maneuverable, this pepelats "borrowed" many features from it, only the Chinese put secrecy in the forefront.
    1. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 4 January 2021 13: 32
      -1
      It's a big F35, conceptually .....
      1. The eye of the crying
        The eye of the crying 4 January 2021 13: 37
        -1
        No one knows exactly what the concept of the J-20 is yet. I personally like the version that this is a long-range interceptor.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 5 January 2021 02: 37
          0
          Rather, a distant drummer.
          1. The eye of the crying
            The eye of the crying 5 January 2021 02: 38
            0
            What are the reasons for considering him a drummer?
            1. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 5 January 2021 10: 51
              0
              The Chinese need to reach out to aircraft carriers.
              Moreover, to fly up undetected, as close as possible.
              1. The eye of the crying
                The eye of the crying 5 January 2021 10: 53
                0
                This statement is about the needs of the Chinese, not about the capabilities of the J-20. If you said "J-20 carries anti-ship missiles" - another matter.
      2. d4rkmesa
        d4rkmesa 4 January 2021 15: 15
        0
        Not exactly, its concept is practically a Chineseized F-22. Why not F-35 - he would not really need engines with OVT and PGO, for an almost pure wagon drummer. And so, it turns out F-22 and Su-27 / MiG MFI in "one bottle". The only thing is slightly lower speed, simpler RP-coating and application technology. Of course, we do not know the technical specification, but we can draw conclusions. For example, how many RVVBD missiles and fuel can fit in such a "suitcase"?
  • garik77
    garik77 4 January 2021 14: 14
    0
    Krasava. The current engines are ours. Without them, it's a pile of metal and microcircuits.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Charik
    Charik 5 January 2021 08: 33
    -1
    This is all the technology of the aliens-the Russian Federation in the Crimea contacted them, they live in the rock there, but it's not for sure, maybe Anka stole when she lived in America and the Chinese in Tibet also found aliens in the rock and agreed, but this is not accurate, maybe Sun Wynne some American cut out drawings F22
  • Awaz
    Awaz 5 January 2021 19: 06
    0
    I am not an expert, but still, logic says that each subsequent generation of fighters is a radical change in most of the aircraft's parameters. The main parameters are speed, armament, and let's say - the effectiveness of the weapon.
    If you look closely, all the aircraft provided do not even surpass the so-called 4th generation aircraft in some places. Stealth is generally a dubious thing, based on the capabilities of modern surveillance systems. The fact that they hid several missiles in the belly and painted them with paint capable of absorbing a bit of radio radiation, it seems to me that this is not some kind of breakthrough: the speeds have not increased, weapons (in low visibility mode) are less, some special weapons are not available In normal mode, if you hang it like on F 16, then you won't talk about any speed and stealth ...
    And now, as I see it, all three aircraft are no different from the past. Chinese in general, fig knows what. And even the penguin, although it is actively used, did not particularly show itself in the topic of invisibility and effectiveness of weapons.
    Tell me, if you hook up some super duper rocket and a bunch of modern electronics to the MiG 31, will it become a 5th generation fighter?
  • Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 5 January 2021 19: 48
    0
    They cannot make a normal engine.
  • high
    high 6 January 2021 08: 31
    0
    It is no longer remembered that the Israeli IAI Lavi aircraft was taken as the basis for the design of the Chinese fighter, work on which in Israel was stopped under US pressure in 1987.
    https://testpilot.ru/china/chengdu/j10/