Descendants of KamAZ-4310: how to keep up with Oshkosh and Volat

KamAZ-6560. Photo: Vitaly Kuzmin, vitalykuzmin.net

David and Goliath

In the previous part stories about the domestic cabover SUV, the discussion was about the development of the Mustang family.

Now the army operates three lines of all-wheel drive vehicles - two-axle KamAZ-4350, three-axle KamAZ-5350 and four-axle KamAZ-6350. Of particular interest is the amphibious modification of KamAZ with the 43501 index, which became a kind of replacement for the retired GAZ-66.

Rumor has it that GAZ Sadko was planned to be the successor. And this is logical - the car is largely assembled on the basis of "Shishiga".

According to one of the versions, during the pile tests (simulation of impact on the ground), the frame of the truck burst. On the other hand, KamAZ provided a much more advanced car. Despite the much larger (than Sadko's) weight of KamAZ, the new landing truck takes on board 3 tons and is equipped with a much more powerful diesel engine.

Initially, the KamAZ-4350 family was planned for the Border Guard Service. And for the landing modification, it was necessary to lower (wheel arches appeared) and slightly shorten the cargo platform. As a result, the rather big KamAZ fit into the P-7M landing platform and in 2007 passed the tests quite successfully. Several hundred landing KamAZ trucks are now in service with the Russian army.

The landing "Mustang" KamAZ-43501. Source: autowp.ru

The heavy part of the Mustang line began its history in 1998 with a four-axle model 6350 with a gross weight of 26,8 tons and with a 360-horsepower KamAZ-740.50 engine. The transmission is mechanical 8-speed.

At the top of the line is the KamAZ-7560 with a 400-horsepower diesel engine and an automatic 16-speed gearbox. For the Pantsir-S anti-aircraft systems, a hybrid of these two KamAZ-6560 models with a 740.35-400 diesel engine is used as a wheeled platform.

There is an onboard version of the car equipped with a 16-speed manual transmission. But the heavy KamAZ for "Pantsirey" is simply stuffed with foreign components, in particular, it is equipped with the Bulgarian bridges Madara.

Onboard KamAZ-6560 and as a platform for "Pantsir-S1". Photo: Vitaly Kuzmin, vitalykuzmin.net

Often in the army, you can see KamAZ-6560 with dismantled import units and installed instead of Russian "import-substituted" analogs.

Tired Mustangs

All this testifies to the moral and technical obsolescence of the Mustang family cars. The year is 2021, and in Naberezhnye Chelny they could not create a family of cars that fully meet the requirements of the Soviet army.

Until now, there is no own automatic transmission, a serial torque converter and independent suspension. The fact that engineers from Naberezhnye Chelny are frankly marking time in the niche of multi-purpose army trucks is evidenced by the level of modern foreign analogues.

Cabover FMTV from Oshkosh is the overseas analogue of the KamAZ-4310 family. Source: autoreview.ru

Take, for example, the development of the American company Oshkosh, whose products can be conditionally called analogues of domestic KamAZ trucks.

In 1996, the US Army began delivering a cabover truck FMTV (Family of Medium Tactical Vehicles), which was developed on the basis of the Austrian Steyr 12M18. In many ways, this is a car similar to the Mustangs - carrying capacity from 2 to 9 tons, dependent suspension and wheel formulas to choose from: 4x4 and 6x6.

Among the differences are a fully armored frame-panel cabin in the latest series and an automatic transmission. The trucks were originally manufactured by Stewart & Stevenson, and later the entire production was completely moved to Oshkosh. In total, the American army now has more than 110 such vehicles. The experience of local conflicts showed the inferiority of the cabover layout of the car. And a couple of years ago, the first "hoods" Oshkosh FMTV A2 went to the US Army.

The American army is gradually switching to the Oshkosh FMTV A2 bonded multipurpose trucks with the TAK-4 proprietary independent suspension. Source: autoreview.ru

The recipe for creating a truck is quite simple. The base armored cabin was moved inside the base, and the engine was carried to the front axle, covered with a fiberglass hood.

Something similar was organized in the Soviet Union in the 80s and 90s with the promising Land project. Then in Miass they planned a new generation of bonnet "Urals" based on the KAMAZ cab, but in Naberezhnye Chelny they decided not to share their products with competitors.

Let's return to the new bonneted (or rather, even half-bonded) Oshkosh, the highlight of which is the proprietary independent suspension of all wheels TAK-4. As you know, this seriously increases the tactical mobility and maneuverability of vehicles. Another truck from Oshkosh, known as MTVR, is equipped with a similar suspension. But he is already a competitor to the heavy Miass Urals of the Tornado-U series.

Evil tongues will say that these are Americans - they have more money, and production experience is much richer. Like, it is impossible to compare the capabilities of the domestic automotive industry and the trendsetters of the global technical fashion. This is partly, of course, true.

For power hurt!

But let's look in the direction of neighboring Belarus, which has less money than Russia, and its competencies developed in many ways simultaneously.

Several years ago, the Minsk Wheel Tractor Plant rolled out a whole line of new machines of the Volat-6001 family. This is how Russian Mustangs of the XNUMXst century should have looked.

The assortment is presented in three models - 4x4, 6x6 and 8x8. All trucks with independent spring suspensions, and two older models (MZKT-600100 with GVW up to 24,8 tons and MZKT-600200 up to 34,4 tons) with automatic hydromechanical transmissions of local production. Frame-panel cabins, greatly simplifying the booking process.

Export machines are equipped with Caterpillar engines, but they can also switch to the products of the Yaroslavl Motor Plant. By the way, the transmission and independent suspension from Belarus migrated to the Russian Ural-Typhoon armored vehicle practically unchanged.

The three-axle MZKT-600100 and the four-axle MZKT-600200 are ideal Mustangs for the Russian army. It's a pity, only they are Belarusian. Source: autoreview.ru

The Volat-6001 family was considered a few years ago as the main multipurpose trucks for the Russian Strategic Missile Forces.

The Belarusian vehicle, which was progressive in all respects, was not put into service, although the older brothers, the missile carriers, serve quite regularly in similar conditions.

Of course, reducing the dependence of the domestic army on foreign equipment is right. But only if there is an adequate replacement. In this situation, it was decided to purchase obsolete "Mustangs" KamAZ-6350.

At the Army-2020 forum, a wide range of 8x8 wheeled vehicles for the Strategic Missile Forces was presented: a missile armament control vehicle (unit 15V380), a guard and defense shift vehicle (unit 15V395) and a mobile technical control center (unit 15V379). A similar platform is also used for the installation of a mechanized set of operational deployment of temporary roads and an experienced heavy mechanized bridge TMM-7.

The most surprising and sad thing in this regard is that KamAZ currently does not have an adequate replacement for the outdated Mustangs. Even in the form of a technology demonstrator or experimental prototypes.

Experiments with independent suspension for KamAZ vehicles are carried out by third-party firms. For example, this is what the Rostar company from Naberezhnye Chelny did, presenting in 2019 a two-axle KamAZ-43502 with a spring independent suspension of its own design.

The strategic lag of the Russian army in the multipurpose truck segment is becoming more and more threatening.

By the way, a similar situation has developed in the segment of high cross-country tank vehicles. The only now KamAZ-65226 truck tractor for military needs is very conditional and is designed only for the transportation of semi-trailers on public roads.

The widely advertised program for the creation of special wheeled chassis and tractors "Platform-0" does not show signs of life at all. Although in the spring of 2019, the giant electric ship 16x16 KamAZ-7850 was put into service.

The Ermak all-terrain drone and the Kama-1 electric car are the latest developments from Naberezhnye Chelny. And again on foreign components. Source: autoreview.ru

What is KamAZ doing now?

Of News it is known that engineers have developed the Kama-1 electric car, utopian for Russia. Apparently, the KAMAZ employees are haunted by the dubious fame of the Prokhorov Yo-mobile. And one more fashionable novelty is the robotic four-wheel drive KamAZ-43118 of the Ermak project, capable of autonomously moving in convoys.

Of course, the direction is promising. But the entire hardware base (lidars and radars) is foreign and bought for currency. And the hydromechanical transmission, in general, is Allison, since the domestic one has not been developed, and the robotization of equipment with "mechanics" is, in principle, impossible.

With such a busy schedule of design work, KamAZ engineers obviously do not have the time and energy to deal with projects that are really urgent for the Russian army.

There is also a second explanation for this paradox - Russian military officials are simply in no hurry to renew their army vehicle fleet.

In this scenario, the story is like high treason.

Продолжение следует ...

Comments

[svp67]

In this case, we have no competition at all. KamAZ is almost a monopolist in the supply of vehicles to the army, and this should not be so. But it happened. RusPromAvto, the owner of GAZ and UralAvto, has been pushed aside and supplies little, although their car range is no worse, or even better than KamAZ ... Belarusian cars, after 2014 and the events in Ukraine, try not to buy at all ...
The story is repeated with our tanks, when there was ONE developer and manufacturer and he, taking advantage of the lack of competition, issues slightly modernized old tanks in marketable quantities, with fighters, using the lack of competition, with fighters, the same story ... "Su" rules the ball ...
But even in the USSR there was fierce competition, which was called competition, but this did not change the meaning, several prototypes from various design bureaus (firms) were presented for testing on the same topic and the best one was chosen ... what he needs, but what they offer ... but they will "be smart" and ask for "what is needed", then first of all they will receive such a price for "this" that they will quickly calm down and will take what they give

[Soko]

Quote: svp67

KamAZ is almost a monopoly in the supply of vehicles to the army .. "RusPromAvto", the owner of GAZ and UralAvto, has been pushed aside and supplies little, although their car range is no worse

Apparently, the KamAZ lobby is more powerful.

[Fierce73]

I already had to blame VO that KAMAZ, with its developed lobbying, forced the RF Ministry of Defense to put the Pantsiri on its chassis! Narrow, with a high CG, it reduced lateral stability and caused several rollovers. And in general, it reduced the capabilities of the complex. Although there is in RUSSIA (which is important) the Bryansk Automobile Plant, with chassis options perfectly suitable for Pantsir. And in general, the plant is "sharpened" for the military, but the lobby of KAMAZ ...

[Togilen]

Now, with the entry into Almaz-Antey, the situation is gradually leveling off, although that "hack" at the Army-2019 on which the BAZ nameplate was stuck was made by comrades, including from the CM-10 department of the Moscow State Technical University named after Bauman (they did the Platform and the Arctic KAMAZ), the initiative for this body chassis came from Almaz-Antey. Many "old men" of the design department were dismissed from work, to put it mildly. Fortunately, the Mytishchi plant with its SKKSH-586-01 triumphantly performed in this Army. Moreover, unlike that "BAZ", it was possible to approach the new SKSh, see what was inside, the designer was given intelligible explanations about the technical part of the machine.
Nevertheless, BAZ is used by A-A for its air defense systems, from the S-350 to the S-400, + the new Magnolia self-propelled gun (there is still a lot of unknown), as well as the Ministry of Defense began to buy BAZ-6403 tractors. 6403.01 m in size remained in the "storerooms", this tractor used many innovations in the design, the cab received bonuses for attaching armored protection, used hinged windows of the cab doors in which bulletproof glass of various thicknesses can be used, the ergonomics of the cab have changed, seats (domestic) with air suspension are used , adjustable steering column, a filter was applied in the heating and ventilation system, the door design was changed, the doorways were shifted back, which improved the fit and visibility, solid aluminum sheets were installed on the cab floor, the cooling conditions of the steering oil tank were improved (an oil pressure drop sensor was introduced), increased the gap between the cabins and the engine compartment to ensure normal thermal conditions when installing TMZ engines on the SKSHT power up to 3,1 hp and other improvements. (article by Alexander Privalov).
Now we have rolled out a new fire engine on a BAZ-8080 chassis with an independent spring suspension and a GMF.

[Kuroneko]

Quote: svp67

And now the RF Ministry of Defense takes not what it needs, but what will be offered ...

It seems like just recently the same idea was expressed in the article summing up the results of the fleet for the 2020th year. That the fleet caved in under the industry. More precisely, he was bent, and for a long time, some, but well-known comrades in high offices. And the state of affairs does not actually change.

[Grits]

In the USSR, it was still more thoughtful than it is now. Trucks had a whole line of cars from different manufacturers of their carrying capacity and purpose: UAZ, GAZ, ZiL, Ural, KamAZ, MAZ, KrAZ, BAZ, MZKT. Now KamAZs are ruling the show. Not always deserved.

[kova1967]

Did you serve in the army? Probably not! I served in the USSR there everything was the best! Kamazov, Uralov, Krazov, Zilov, Gazov were all equally. Nio what competition was out of the question! Every car is good in its place!

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: kova1967

Kamazov, Uralov, Krazov, Zilov, Gazov were all equally. Nio what competition was out of the question! Every car is good in its place!

And what kind of batteries were on the trucks! Silver. There were no problems with them.

[northwest]

It meant competition between design bureaus and manufacturers.

[Vladimir61]

There is also a second explanation for this paradox - Russian military officials are simply in no hurry to renew their army vehicle fleet.

Maybe the time has not come for this update? If you have a thousand left in your pocket, you have to choose what to buy, bananas or sausage. Moreover, KAMAZ does not produce anything new (but in the rally, we are ahead of the rest).

[Jager]

For the rally, there is only a steering wheel and a KAMAZ cab ...

[grau]

Yaroslavsky engine.

[Zaurbek]

The engines are different there: Yaroslavsky, Tutaevsky, Liebherr, Cummins, Chinese Wichai, it seems, now.

[Togilen]

They have their own bridges on modified Sisu beams, the main gear itself, their own brakes, drums with pads on which disc brake pads are welded on, their own frame, partly the suspension, the engine is now, even though the Dongfeng Cummins ISZ-13 forced by KAMAZ-Master specialists, moreover, such details as a knee are made for him at KAMAZ on special order.
Previously, when 7E846 stood, the bridge girders were Krazov.
On such systems as steering and pneumatics, they are imported in civilian life, like a clutch box.

[Grits]

Quote: Jager

For rallying, there is only a KAMAZ steering wheel and cab ..

And the nameplate?

[Thrifty]

And, after that, a bunch of bureaucrats blatantly lie to the country that in our army equipment, in all equipment, every last nut is Russian! Indeed, unfortunately, Comrade Stalin is not there!

[Soko]

Quote: Thrifty

And, after that, a bunch of bureaucrats blatantly lie to the country that in our army equipment, in all equipment, every last nut is Russian! Indeed, comrade Stalin, unfortunately, is not there

But the people are proud. And an official with a bonus. This is the system.

[Nestor Vlakhovski]

"Comrade Stalin" did not disdain to buy from the damned bourgeois in general everything that they were ready to sell. For there was no competitive product in Russia.
Therefore, one should not even now portray some kind of tragedy, because the situation is quite typical for a country that is following its own path.

[ROMANO]

Yeah, only Stalin got the country in ruins after the wars and revolutions. And for 30 years, out of nothing, he created a top power. On the contrary, the "democrats" have managed to lower the superpower to the level of the "third world" countries in 30 years.

[Nestor Vlakhovski]

only Stalin got the country in ruins after wars and revolutions

First, it can hardly be considered an excuse.
Secondly. Stalin got the country after the 7-year NEP, which raised the people from the pit. Mass industrialization of the country began under the tsar, for example, when discussing industry in the Great Patriotic War, we everywhere run into the "tsarist legacy".

for 30 years from nothing, he created a top power.

is it kinda good? Should the representative of the people be proud of this?

On the contrary, the "democrats" have managed to lower the superpower to the level of the "third world" countries in 30 years

Is a third world country bad? For example, the DPRK, in your opinion, the country of which world? And South Korea?

[sleeve]

What is your controversial comment ..

[MstislavHrabr]

First: NEP from 1921 to 1924. Lenin died in 1924. Five years of the NEP falls on the Stalinist period of rule ... Secondly: what was created under the tsar was destroyed by the revolution and the war. It was necessary to be able to restore and establish so that it was necessary to be able to surpass the pre-revolutionary level! (We still cannot restore many of the competences of the USSR ...)

[sleeve]

The first 10 years do not need to be inserted into one coupler.

[Evil Booth]

for a moment it got to Stalin thanks to his own efforts. and in general it became not only the 45th but also the 41st. And as for the pipe products, England bought in Russia under Peter 1 and today. the list is endless

[Ingenegr]

Quote: Nestor Vlahovski

"Comrade Stalin" did not disdain to buy from the damned bourgeois in general everything that they were ready to sell. For there was no competitive product in Russia.

Yes, they bought, studied and established the production of analogs, complete or adapted to the capabilities of their own industry.
This is somewhat different than assembling "Lego" toys from the supplied parts.

[Andy]

Quote: Nestor Vlahovski

Comrade Stalin “did not disdain to buy everything from the damned bourgeoisie that they were ready to sell.

if you didn't have your own, why not buy it? vikkers-t26 for example. only then they themselves produced, and not stupidly one to one, but modified. gained experience. what did you buy after the mig15 engine? but this did not stop aircraft construction

[Evil Booth]

horror is also the fact that in the United States they did not carry a motor as in a moment15. and in england the radar is like vf14 ... and so on))

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Nestor Vlahovski

For there was no competitive product in Russia.

And the Victory, which was invented during the war? And what about the Niva, which the British police bought and sold to more than a hundred countries around the world? The Swedish billionaire cut through the Niva.

[military_cat]

Quote: Mordvin 3

The Swedish billionaire cut through the Niva.

They also buy Ural wheelchairs for a lot of money. Only for the sake of fun piece curiosities for special connoisseurs, and not practical tools for solving problems.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: military_cat

They also buy Ural wheelchairs for a lot of money. Only for the sake of fun piece curiosities for special connoisseurs, and not practical tools for solving problems.

This billionaire has cut through the field for many years. In general, there is a Niva fan club in Sweden. She suits them very much. And in the Urals, Brad Pitt drives. And not just like that, but quite for myself.

By the way, did the British police buy Niva for fun too?

[military_cat]

Quote: Mordvin 3

By the way, did the British police buy Niva for fun too?

Is there a link where to read about it? Google did not suggest.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: military_cat

Is there a link where to read about it? Google did not suggest.

And it won't tell you. Komsomolskaya Pravda wrote about this in the late 80s. And their archive burned down even before digitalization. By the way, in the film Crimson Rivers, the Niva also flashed. And in some film, the commissar rolled out on the Niva.

[Alexander Stupin]

For the sake of truth - "Ural" is still the successor of the German BMW R71, which was produced from 1938 to 1941. Incidentally, and advertising on the American market broadcast - "Ural" is a new old BMW.

[Narak-zempo]

Why does an army truck need automatic transmission? What, the soldier's hands will fall off to turn the wings? And so their life was almost made a fairy tale when the power steering was introduced.
And our grandfathers, by the way, drove the T-34 without any servos there - with an effort on the lever up to 60 kg, and the hands did not fall off.

[Zaurbek]

On powerful cars, light movement with the GAZ pedal and you will be left without a box or a radatka ..... There even not all firms do "Automata". Belarusians put Allison on the MZKT export - it is practically a monopolist in such units.

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Zaurbek

On powerful cars, light movement with the GAZ pedal and you will be left without a box or a radatka ..... There even not all firms do "Automata". Belarusians put Allison on the MZKT export - it is practically a monopolist in such units.

In order not to kill the box, the driver must straighten his arms, and only then put him behind the wheel.
But it is easier and cheaper than putting automatic transmission everywhere. And in civilian life, a demobilization with straight arms has more prospects.

[Zaurbek]

The problem with personnel is there and there ... and in the industry, the main trend is protection from the fool. Up to 400 hp it is not so critical, but more powerful becomes critical. Previously, Kamaz, like URAL, were "younger" of this bar .... and now they have grown and outgrown. Even in the USSR, an Automatic was installed on the MZKT and KZKT. (either 1-speed, or 2x) and do not forget about the Resource and the applicability of units in civilian life.

[sleeve]

Yes, maintainability without automatic transmission is higher.

[Zaurbek]

Now they are moving on to replacing the unit and sending it to the contractor ... and from the unit they require a certain operating time in hours or km. Why repair one unit twice if the other leaves without repair?

[Togilen]

MZKT has its own GMP, which they developed together with the Chinese, but the localization is 100% at the plant in Minsk - MZKT-6561, MZKT-5561. Prior to that, the MZKT-7930 (ROC Astrologer) was equipped with the YMZ-202-1700025 box, the production of which was transferred to Minsk (5 gears + a demultiplier, 9 st), later it was named MZKT-65151. By the way, now our Defense Ministry buys complexes of weapons and equipment on the MZKT-7930 chassis with a manual gearbox, no one is going to buy MKZT-7930-300 (with GMF), although this would significantly simplify the management of a very heavy machine with a 500 hp engine. from. Greed or stupidity, it is on the conscience of the MO.

[Alekseev]

"Why does an army truck need automatic transmission ..."
The question makes sense.
Army equipment should be as simple as possible, not require heavy maintenance.
Where the author is right is that some foreign components are unjustifiably used on army trucks, if they have their own, proven by operation in the troops. This is the KP ZF. Why does an army car need an 8-speed gearbox (with RC 16)? Why is a storage fuel system, if the rate of write-off of diesel fuel has not changed, the power has increased slightly, and maintainability has decreased, on the contrary, significantly. Environmental requirements in war are not very necessary.
And, in general, KamAZ of the Mustang family are not bad cars, but they were not born by the military, like the Urals in their time, but only adapted for military service.

[Zaurbek]

Now no one will make special "army" cars ...... and now it is peacetime and the military wants a large resource and economical consumption. The main "tuning" is armored cabins for trucks.

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Alekseev

Why a battery fuel system, if the rate of write-off of diesel fuel has not changed

By the way, the automatic transmission is robust enough to increase consumption.
And the write-off rates should be revised so that they steal less.

[Vadim237]

Where does it increase fuel consumption?

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Vadim237

Where does it increase fuel consumption?

On the torque converter mechanical losses hoo.

[Zaurbek]

Doesn't increase much. I judge by my car. On diesel, there is generally an error.

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Zaurbek

Doesn't increase much. I judge by my car. On diesel, there is generally an error.

What type of automatic transmission do you have?

[Zaurbek]

8AT and 2,2 TD and 200ls

And the consumption of the highway is 7,5 liters, mixed 9-10,5 city 11 .......

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Zaurbek

8AT and 2,2 TD and 200ls

Well, this is too high-tech product for our automotive industry standards.
In those that we can master, the losses will be considerable.
So the mechanics and straight arms (straightened by physical suggestion from the old-timers).

[Zaurbek]

Civilian gearboxes have no less ... and Diesel Kamaz has 11 liters of 550 hp, and 750 hp (2 turbines) is not enough ... and all this is Euro 6

[shark507]

"Not much increases. I judge by my car. And the consumption of the highway is 7,5 liters, mixed 9-10,5 city 11" - Do you have the same car with the same engine but with manual transmission?

[Zaurbek]

.... and front-wheel drive? No .... but at idle it rumbles 900 rpm, rides at 12-130-1500 rpm-1700 rpm .... even empty, even loaded.

[shark507]

Not....

- Why then did you conclude that the automatic transmission does not greatly increase the consumption?

[Zaurbek]

Since there are 8-9 steps on fresh automatic transmissions and this will dramatically reduce losses and there are such boxes as Robot, which even increase efficiency ... and, plus, the diesel has a lot of torque and does not need to increase the speed when switching ....
There are always losses. The question is what?

[Free wind]

5 or 4 gears depending on model. the box switches to direct transmission, that is, there is no difference from the mechanics. And if you roll in fifth at about a thousand rpm. like how I save, then the engine comes with a cover, and the computer and the machine will not allow this. Well, try to switch from the first to the second in the mud, if the car becomes a stake when squeezing the clutch. Well, what about the repair. there are cars whose automatic machines are much more reliable than mechanics, for example, the same Terano Nisanovsky, or Patrol, well, it just does not break, but the mechanics breaks.

[Togilen]

Those Mustangs that were originally prepared were the military, although not on the front line. The main requirements of the military were inter-wheel differential locks, frame-panel cabins, high-power engines and GMF for the heaviest version 6350, etc.
We made motors, locks and even GMF (DP6A.1400) jointly developed by NAMI + KMZ. But Gaidar's reforms burst out (and indeed Yeltsin's rule) and the defense industry was forgotten. As a result, the Mustangs only in a simplified form went to the troops only in 2004. If everything was the way it was originally developed in our special department of the STC, the machines would have turned out completely different. The same 6560, in principle, would not be needed now, because new bridges were also being developed. Few people know, but even at the launch in production 4310, experimental cars with reinforced bridges and tires of a different diameter were built, as well as increased the load on the saddle for the 4410. Much was then banned by the paranoid Polyakov, and then the market economy and the fire of 1993.

[Evil Booth]

the insidious brain prompts that the automatic transmission on an army truck does not make a mistake, but on a truck for an air defense operating on the move mb should also put an automatic ... especially since this is suddenly not highly critical in specifics for the shell itself.

[Jager]

Why T-34 ??? Our ancestors were content with stones and sticks, a tank is an impermissible luxury!

[Gvardeetz77]

You also say that by switching gears, the fighter on the march will not fall asleep, but on the automatic transmission he will lose the fight with sleep ...
And what for do we need a jet aircraft structure, if the grandfathers won the war on pistons, despite all the 262nd from the enemy? And there was no need to automatically retract the landing gear, the pilots completely relaxed afterwards ... That they could not turn the handle on takeoff and landing, so no physical load was removed, and they also had additional food!

[Narak-zempo]

Quote: Gvardeetz77

if the grandfathers won the piston war, despite all the 262nd from the enemy

A balance must be struck between the complication of technique and the advantages that this complication gives in practice.
262 is not mentioned here, but the fact that the FW-190 had fully automated control of the VMG, and the German fought while ours turned the propeller pitch wheels and adjusted the mixture - this really provided a key advantage.
But if, for example, you look at the tanks, then the "Tiger" semi-automatic box did not already give decisive advantages in battle, tk. there were completely different factors at play. But it complicated production and service.
A truck, however, is not a tank, the driver does not fight, therefore, seriously complicating and raising the cost of the machine's design in order to slightly facilitate his work (at the same time complicating the life of the technicians) is sabotage.

[sleeve]

Why exaggerate that? The main components are named. Maintainability and fuel consumption. In combat conditions, comfort only from automatic transmission will be paid for by abandoned equipment or additional refueling points. In peacetime, parking of faulty cars in anticipation of automatic transmission units from the factory.

[Togilen]

Did you even serve in the army? I will say even more was in a dangerous situation that threatens your life? Well, in such a situation, at least no matter what he was a contract soldier, the first thing that will comprehend him is confusion, someone will need 2 seconds to turn on the rear or sink through 16 gears after 4, burning the clutch, and someone will simply confuse the brake with gas or clutch or turn on the unnecessary transfer and that's it. And training in our army, to put it mildly, is not so hot, show-off on TV for suckers who believe in a "bright future."
Another thing is a tank or ballast tractor such as KAMAZ-65225 (make a mistake, 65226 is a civilian only) or BAZ-6402/6306, so for such a car it is necessary that the flow of power and CM is transmitted smoothly so that when towing does not pull the hitch when shifting gear to Manual transmission, therefore, GMP is installed on heavy cars. The same traction rupture effect occurs on most of our electric and diesel locomotives, which are equipped with commutator traction motors, not asynchronous ones.

[Zaurbek]

There is no longer sabotage, but "economy" - Mustangs are practically commercial vehicles ..... KAMAZ has a promising diesel engine with 550-750 hp. The independent suspension is the same. Bridges (as in the URAL) are used differently. Mostly China (licensed MAN, I think). The main difficulty is AT. This is especially critical for powerful (from 500 hp) cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ4xjbWb3DU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk5YNpN7Am8&t=389s

[timokhin-aa]

Yes, KAMAZ has its own bridges, calm down. After the covid, even the fuel for KAMAZ eights, the Altai AZPI began to be put to a large extent.
There are, of course, imports, and without it the cars will become worse, but they will be produced in almost the same form.

This is if about the old lineup. Mercedes-Benz is, of course, another topic, but this is not a military topic.

[Togilen]

What does COVID have to do with it? We began to install the fuel AZPI two years ago. And the injectors are so generally since 2005

[timokhin-aa]

The question is in quantities. There were interruptions with civilian equipment due to supplies from China. If you yourself are from KAMAZ, then I can write some numbers to confirm. If not, then I don't see the point.

[Togilen]

In quantities, now it is almost the entire range of 740 engines and new 910 engines. From China, fuel was never installed. The bridges are now their own on the off-road range of the K3 and K5 dump trucks. But the vast majority (K4 and K5) are equipped with Hande bridges. By the way, our bridge is a copy of the RABA bridge, which originally stood at 6560, it was replaced by Modara due to a lower cost, but if you open the manual for example 6520 it will be written there, the car is equipped with drive axles 6520 -... a lot digits (for different pairs, as they were put on 5460 and 6460), it is also possible to install RABA bridges on cars, which have a similar design.
The gear ratio of the bridge for models 5460, 6460 is 5,11; for model 6520 - 6,33.
For “RABA” axles the gear ratio is 5,648 for all models.

[timokhin-aa]

According to AZPI, Bosch Common Rail was on the civil 740 throughout the documentation, in fact it was also.
For example, you can compare 43118-3027-50 and 43118-23027-50

By the way, our bridge is a copy of the RABA bridge, which originally stood at 6560, it was replaced by Modara due to the lower cost, but if you open the manual for example 6520 it will be written there, the car is equipped with drive axles 6520 -... a lot digits (for different pairs, as they were put on 5460 and 6460), it is also possible to install RABA bridges on cars, which have a similar design.

On the entire heavy gable series of old types, that is, 6520, 65201, 6522 with KAMAZ cabins, they cost 5,11. Including 6x6.
On single-sided heavy machines 6x6 for the civilian market - 6,88
This has been the case since at least 2014 and has not changed since then.

Military equipment is a different matter, but on civilian like this.

[Togilen]

I'm talking about the "minimum" since 1997, when the 6520 was first rolled out to the people and since 2002, when its production began with the checkpoint-161 (there was no ZF-Kama yet).

[timokhin-aa]

Then I was doing other things, very much different))).

[Togilen]

About AZPI a little. AZPI supplied injectors for 740 and its modifications. Since 2018, AZPI has launched the production of equipment under the trade name Altay Common Rail System for our P6 (well, for me already former, since I have not been working there for a year). This is the main priority of PJSC KAMAZ in import substitution. Apart from such structural subdivisions as foundry, blacksmith, the Engine plant itself managed to make the P6 almost completely Russian. Partly polymer materials are an exception. Although, by the way, earlier, in the 80s, when my father was still working at the Scientific and Technical Center, the developments were domestic at the level of imported analogs, or even superior to the latter. My father participated in the ROC "Project-88" and 6410.
There was an exhibition in Chelny. 7411, and 7403.10, which practically did not get on cars in the 80s and early 90s, in the 80s all production 7403 went to the BTR-80, and only in the 90s did the engine reach production cars until the event happened 1993 year. Then we tried UTD-20S (deforce up to 220 hp), ZIL-645 (we tried to install TKR but because of the M-process the ZIL diesel engine "choked"), as you know, YaMZ helped with 238M2, although the KamAZ-740.10 engine was produced in small series at RIZ and Remdizel.

[timokhin-aa]

Interesting details, thanks.
Now AZPI makes its common rails for civil 740. I wrote the chassis model above, it all started with it this spring, then it went to others.
This transition began when the border with the Chinese was closed.

[Togilen]

Eh, I remember such pictures from dealers. They have been standing for a couple of weeks and everything is already rusted to hell. Year 2011-12 approximately

[Zaurbek]

Up to some kind of load in tons they are their own, and higher (in the Urals too) - China.

[timokhin-aa]

No, it’s not. Chinese bridges are only on road URALs, on KAMAZ they have their own for a long time, neither Steyr, nor Daimler, nor Madara have been installed for a long time, Dana stands on medium- and low-tonnage two-axle vehicles, but only on several models

The rest KAMAZ has mastered for a long time.

[Zaurbek]

Why, then, is China on the heavy dump trucks? The front axles are not leading, yes, I have mastered Kamaz ..... if putting PP, then they put China.

[timokhin-aa]

This is not China.
There are bridges for double-sided tires, there used to be Steyr and Daimler, now their own, there are bridges under a single-sided one, as on the same "Armored" chassis, there used to be Madara bridges, now they have their own.
There is no China.
China is in the road Urals.

[Free wind]

Flip the hubs. and you will get both a single-skate and a two-skate, but why an independent suspension is another matter? Do you need to cut more money?

[timokhin-aa]

YES, it's easier to put a car on Krazov bast shoes VI-3, here's a single slope on gable hubs.
It would be why.

[Vidock]

You don't need to throw anything. The "long stocking" is worn as a single-runner and a double-runner. "Short stocking" is needed when the chassis is designed only for a single slope, in this case a frame with a wide spacing between the side members is used.
As for foreign chassis, I drove all of them. Unreasonably difficult and expensive. And they have no advantages on the road over the Urals and Kamaz.

[Togilen]

Chinese bridges at 6370 and Tornado-U.

[timokhin-aa]

On road URALs with a gable, they are also.

[Togilen]

Yes, because the volume of the road car market is not yet clear, but I doubt that they will compete with 65115 and 6520. + We certainly have great technical and technological capabilities. From frame release to engine and transmission components. This is how NAMI-020 became a true army vehicle. Ural Next has a bad feature, a small steering wheel, when hitting a rut, it knocks out and you can get your hands on it from the heart. Personal experience.
But the YaMZ-536 engine is a very good thing, it is lighter than the KamAZ-740 (weight 740 kg), the 536 has a mass of about 640 kg (depending on the modification), so the load on the front axle of Next is 100 kg less. From the old ZIL-MMZ and GAZ-SAZ I know which one to have a cast-iron engine in the field instead of an aluminum one. If it becomes limp, the failure of the front axle is guaranteed.

[timokhin-aa]

At 375 Uralov, the steering wheel broke his fingers, a special grip was required. Next, in this sense, progress.

On motors in vain you did not cooperate with YaMZ in due time.
And on the bridges, KAMAZ would have been smarter, he would have climbed into the Urals with bridges. They will buy them anyway and will bet, so yours would sell them.
Extra money, isn't it bad?
By the 020, their 6x4 bonnet no longer have much to do with it.

[Togilen]

Next to the 375 family (375D, 4320) is also a very modest attitude, the frame and bridges are only partly related. The rest are from scratch. The steering wheel really knocks out of the hands. The steering itself is RBL or ZF (depending on the year of manufacture), but a small steering wheel for an all-terrain vehicle is not the best solution.
To whom and what to sell is not my specialty, there is a corporate policy, and KAMAZ will not sell axles to a manufacturer that is a potential competitor, as well as an existing competitor in the class of all-wheel drive vehicles. At the same time, a foundry and a forging plant produce a crankshaft for engines of the YaMZ-530 family.
The policy of PJSC KAMAZ is directed by Rostec, which is trying to crush everything that is of any value in terms of state orders, which, in my opinion, is fundamentally wrong and the country's top leadership should pay attention to Chemezov's "behavior".

[The leader of the Redskins]

Thank you author. Interesting and dimensional. It would be more, I would be tired of reading.
Merry Christmas.

[Scharnhorst]

The program of import substitution in critical industries and weapons cannot be interpreted as a transition to a medieval subsistence economy. Tanks and aircraft should be on a domestic production base, but army trucks, especially the transport group, are perfectly acceptable to choose at tenders with the admission of allied states (China, Belarus, Kazakhstan ...). And the competition will be healthy and there is no need to scatter scientific and design potential. Still, our 145 million population will not be able to compete in all industries with the global world, or we will slowly turn into North Korea.

[LastPS]

I disagree. Army trucks are a very important part of the army as such. Chassis, components and assemblies use all types of troops and they directly affect the defense capability of the state, in addition, production creates jobs, money for contracts remains inside the country (in normal states), stable army orders allow production to develop and create competitive models, including for the civilian market. There is no point in giving production at the mercy of foreign manufacturers, not only is it not economically profitable, but also the union state can sharply become non-union under certain conditions (remember the Ukrainian turbines for our ships and aircraft).
Trucks are not an area where production problems will not be critical. This approach can only work for some very specific areas, such as equipment for combat swimmers, an article about the problems with which was recently published on VO, and even then I am in favor of making most of the equipment on our own, and buying only what it is not yet possible or too expensive to produce.
A good example of a Lobaev rifle. They shoot with a non-standard cartridge (although they are already being stamped at our factories), barrels are made (were they produced?) From American blanks, but this is all uncritical, because supersnipers for these rifles are piece goods and even if the barrels are not sold to us, this will only affect the long-term perspective, and by that time you can master the production yourself.

[Zaurbek]

MZKT is exported by Allison. And CAT motors

[roadsmell]

In many ways, this is a car similar to the Mustangs - carrying capacity from 2 to 9 tons, dependent suspension and wheel formulas to choose from: 2x2 and 4x4.

The author is really delusional.
Or stupidly copy-paste, or far from the topic under discussion.

If the latter, I expect exciting stories about American 1x1 wheel formulas; 0,7x0,7; 0,5x0,5.

[Narak-zempo]

how to keep up with Oshkosh and Volat

And we didn't bother them. Why should we harass someone, we have our own way

[loki565]

It is more likely a question of price and the ability to purchase more expensive modern equipment from the Ministry of Defense. And as an example, Typhoon K automatic transmission, hydropneumatic controlled suspension, funding will do everything or buy a license, but as long as there are no orders, old models are being stamped.

[Stirbjorn]

From the news it is known that engineers have developed a utopian electric car for Russia Kama-1.

What is the utopianism of an electric car for Russia ?! We must keep pace with progress.
For Kamaz trucks in general, recently an article was published "Behind the wheel" -

KAMAZ of a new generation: almost everything is imported https://www.zr.ru/content/articles/924805-kamaz-5490-chetvertogo-pokoleniya/

So what kind of development is there for the military ?!

[Alexander Vorontsov]

Thanks to the author for the article, definitely +.
But some things are not clear.

Why is it suddenly offensive for the state?

I recently prepared 2 articles on a similar topic:
1) https://topwar.ru/177320-mnenie-chto-rossija-prigotovila-dlja-zaschity-svoih-soldat-v-karabahe.html
2) https://topwar.ru/177217-mnenie-mrap-y-dlja-karabaha-chast-i.html

All foreign and domestic experience is analyzed.

Evil tongues will say that these are Americans - they have more money, and production experience is much richer. Like, it is impossible to compare the capabilities of the domestic automotive industry and the trendsetters of the global technical fashion. This is partly, of course, true.

It's not even about fashion, but about demand and expediency.
The Americans also came to their senses only when they began to undermine them en masse on the roads.
And before that there was no demand.

You can create any machine - then the question arises of how to saturate the troops with this machine.
How to maintain it, how to transport it, etc. Again, in the articles, this issue was revealed - how the cars stood idle due to the fact that there were no necessary spare parts or the mechanics did not have the necessary qualifications.
How the United States lost a plane while transporting new vehicles. What started the logistic nightmare, etc.

Several years ago, the Minsk Wheel Tractor Plant rolled out a whole line of new machines of the Volat-6001 family. This is how Russian Mustangs of the XNUMXst century should have looked.

I repeat - rolling out of the factory gates is not a problem. You can even roll out the Grendizer.

Where more important questions are - at what distance from Belarus are their military bases located?
In what ways are they planning to transfer new transport there?
How many of these samples will go to the troops?
How do you plan to retrain service personnel?
How much will this program cost?
And then compare it with the Russian responses.

It is advisable to answer all these questions by reading about the whole bouquet of delights that the United States encountered when mastering a new transport.

four-axle MZKT-600200 - ideal "Mustangs" for the Russian army

And what are they "ideal"?
Despite the fact that even the United States, with its ability to work out 150 options, recognizes that different theaters of war and different regions need different transport.
And in the conditions of Russia ... mountainous Caucasian villages, Siberian frosts, Syrian sands - each theater has its own ideal. So there is no way to avoid compromises.

[_Ugene_]

The widely advertised program for the creation of special wheeled chassis and tractors "Platform-0" does not show signs of life at all.

by the way, what about this Platform? They promoted it, promoted it, and something all died out, no answer, no hello, and so beautifully went sideways at exhibitions

[Evgeny Fedorov]

The situation with Platform-O is deplorable. He prepared the material for VO. I hope it will be soon))

[Zaurbek]

To reach Platform 0, you must first master 8x8 tractors ...

[Evgeny Fedorov]

We had planned so. ROC "platform-O" means 8x8, 12x12 and 16x16. There is a whole line - from a tank carrier and a ballast tractor to a missile carrier for Yars.

[Zaurbek]

By the way, there is a trend for tank carriers - Usual Kamaz and Urals 6x6 and 8x8 with reinforced bridges and diesel engines. It is cheaper than MZKT ...... but not applicable in all conditions.

[Timx]

By the way, there is a trend for tank carriers - Ordinary Kamaz and Urals ...

This is not such a trend, but we, sorry, with a `` bare ass '' were left after the devastation of the 90s ...
Previously, the topic of tankers was occupied by KZKT (Kurgan Wheel Tractor Plant), now sawn for scrap and demolished ... And other manufacturers to close this niche need their own backlog and aggregate base (which are completely absent), something like this. And small-scale Kamaz trucks began to be purchased under Serdyukov, he really liked the very idea of ​​driving products as close to civilian ones as possible into the army, without thinking about the consequences (remember the Italian Lynx SUVs, communications, and the first drones are the same) ...

[Vanka Zhukov]

It's funny to read the opinion of the prosecutor.

[lelik613]

The judge's opinion will be even funnier

[Grits]

Quote: lelik613

The judge's opinion will be even funnier

The opinion of a cellmate will generally amuse you to colic

[Nestor Vlakhovski]

Chef, everything is gone - the plaster is removed, the client leaves.
What did the author want to prove with his daub? Then write about the crafts of the shameful car industry of your native Square, we will laugh too.

[Dkuznecov]

He was not joking, the author of the article never.
You just didn't get it - really
everything is lost. Rather, nothing began.
You haven't read the article, but do you condemn it?

[Dkuznecov]

"the latest developments from Naberezhnye Chelny.
And again on foreign components. "
"It was a difficult year. It was harder than that ..."

Nothing. Little by little we will master electric motors
and fill the world with Russian electric shavers.

Then we'll learn how to make drone engines.
All sorts of batteries.

And there, you see,
and heavy engineering
with machine-tool building we will raise.

They tried to transfer the military-industrial complex on a peaceful track,
instead of tanks, for example, make baby carriages,
but complaints started - it's hard to take a child out of the tower.

If, apart from jokes, the current authorities there, above,
it doesn't matter at all whence weapons are taken,
which this power protects.

I read the comments and see - it starts to reach the people,
what's the thief upstairs not about the greatness of the country,
but about their stolen trillions, which are given to another thief
I do not want.

Therefore, the songs about the intrigues of enemies seeking to trample
"the young republic of the Soviets". Sorry. It's not from this song.
Just inspired by the music. In short, there are only enemies around.

The fact that kids bureaucrats study with kids "enemies" in Yale and other Princetons
at the same desk, and the mansions of "enemies" are on the same street in London,
and bank accounts in the same offshore are no longer a secret.

Thank you for attention.

Congratulations to your friends with Christmas, faith in a worthy future.

[Viktor Sergeev]

Can you tell me the cost of the compared cars?

[timokhin-aa]

Author, what are you writing? 43501 does not and could not have an 8-stupa gearbox, KAMAZ has exactly three gearboxes - 144th 5 gears and two slightly different 10-speed (5 * 2, with a divider) - 152nd and 154th.
There is also ZF9S1310TA, there are 9 gears, the first is a "turtle", downshift, 8 main (4 and divider). The 16-speed ZF is already on heavy vehicles.
Specify what is behind the 8-speed gearbox.

The second point - ZF16S1822 is a MANUAL gearbox, not an "automatic".

The third point - what kind of domestic 16-speed gearbox is there? They are not. There is a 14-speed experimental one in Tutaev, but it was never mass-produced, and in general it was made for a different engine, I don't even know if the bell is standardized by SAE or not.

There are also 43501 with a normal body, not airborne, and, like its predecessor, the two-axle 4326 is supplied to the troops.

Instead of Steyrovskaya RK, there has long been an analogue in the series - 6522.

We need to prepare better, dear author.

The most surprising and sad thing in this regard is that KamAZ currently does not have an adequate replacement for the outdated Mustangs. Even in the form of a technology demonstrator or experimental prototypes.

The question remains behind the scenes - why is it needed? Do you like independent suspensions on the street in cold weather? Do you know that when driving in a column, the spring suspension rolls up a flat track, and the independent one breaks? The experience of "Tatra" in the north showed this more than well.
Maybe you need more plastic for a military car? Or electronics? Can entrust conscripts with automatic transmission maintenance? Well, is there an automated hydraulic fluid change, a filter change?
Expand your thought.
Fornication with the overcomplication of military cars we saw in the Wehrmacht, how it ended is very well known.
Why ride someone else's rake?

[Togilen]

We had a KAMAZ-161 gearbox, 4 gears + rear range. It was developed from the beginning of the 90s for 6350, when it almost became clear that we could not see an experienced GMF, and standard gearboxes could not carry the engine torque 740.50 and 52. The demultiplier was done with the involvement of ZF specialists, there is nothing surprising, ZIL for 4331 could generally use 8 - a step from ZF, they were offered to localize the box in the 80s (it was easier to understand, the control of the box was easier, the mass was less and the transmitted torque was greater, but they refused because their own was already ready). Box 161 was mass-produced, installed on the first 6350 and 6520/6522, but not for long. Due to the launch of ZF-Kama, the project was closed. And initially it was supposed to be a 16 st box (+ divider) for mainline tractors (the experienced ones were calculated for 6410 in the 80s). This is the box.

[timokhin-aa]

Interesting, did not know.
I have never seen such people on cars.

[Redsun]

Why does a military truck need automatic transmission? This is a rather complex unit, in parts there will definitely be problems with its maintenance. And if in conditions of hostilities? By the way, mechanics are much preferable for off-road use. Such equipment should, first of all, meet the requirements of mass scale, reliability and maintainability. After all, we do not have a European parade army, but all the same, at least in its land part, really sharpened for a big war

[Slasherrus]

I disagree with the statement that the mechanics are better off-road. And in terms of reliability and convenience. In terms of reliability, many have associations with automatic passenger cars. Yes, it is not intended for off-road. But an automatic machine normally designed for heavy loads will be much more reliable than the gearbox + clutch system. Yes, it is clear that the gearbox will be higher than the machine in terms of resource, but the clutch is definitely not. And an automatic machine in terms of manufacturing is much simpler than a gearbox, which requires more high-precision machine tools for metalworking. In terms of off-roading, an automatic machine is also preferable, it allows you to more smoothly transfer torque to the wheels, which is very important when driving on weakly bearing soils.

[Togilen]

The author counts for the article! A lot of errors, incorrect indexes, strange, to put it mildly, conclusions (for example, about independent suspension), etc.
The main thing. KAMAZ has an adequate replacement for Mustangs, vehicles of the K-53958 family made according to the Tornado design and development project. The only drawback of these cars is the Chinese GMF. We do not have our own GMP, although before the Tutaevsky Motor Plant became part of PJSC KAMAZ, it developed both GMF and automated manual transmissions (photo). These projects are now closed. Also, during the reign of the furniture maker in the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, two R&D projects were closed - R&D Naturalist (carried out by VNIITransmash) to create a GMP for VAT and dual-purpose tracked vehicles (for internal combustion engines from 100 to 1500 hp), R&D Celina (I don’t remember who the performer was. ) on the development of standard sizes of tires for VAT and SKSh. As a result, we were left without automatic transmission and tires for BAT and SKSH. A new engine (albeit with the Swiss) was created, their size includes models for civil and special purposes, both a single turbocharger and a dual turbocharging system (biturbo in the people) are used. Models from KAMAZ-910.14-360 to 920.13-750.
The use of independent suspension for AMN (which is Mustang) and BAT (Tornado-K / U) is not critical. For AMN (Mustang), maintainability is more important, which is provided by the standard arrangement of the chassis. An independent suspension is usually used for SCS, because the type of equipment is used to transport weapons and special products, these products just need a smooth ride. This is not so necessary for BAT.

[Zaurbek]

Independent suspension is used mainly on Tornado-K and chassis, where it is necessary to lower the center of gravity. Type of promising 8x8 chassis on Pantsir. Over the past few years, Kamaz has done a great job - a new diesel engine and a Cab ... More than 2000 Nm of torque, in general, the choice of gearboxes is limited in the world. And no one will sell it to us for military purposes and the license is unlikely to be sold. And it needs to be developed precisely as a civilian unit with a civilian resource.

[Togilen]

On Tornado-K - respected dependent spring suspension. We at JV KAMA-ZF produce two boxes - 9 st and 16 s, AMKPP will not be given to us, as well as GMP. Before our GMP, after the closure of all research and development projects in 2008, we now have to go and go (13 years have been lost and then only research and development work was going on, without development work). It's easier to buy a license from MZKT. Because the people who were engaged in GMP at VNIITransmash no longer work there, and Transmash itself is now a miserable sight.

[Zaurbek]

How does BAZ make an independent suspension? Can I buy from them?

[Dmitry Vladimirovich]

Quote: Togilen

These projects are now closed. Also, during the reign of the furniture maker in the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, two R&D projects were closed - R&D Naturalist (carried out by VNIITransmash) on the creation of a GMP for WAT and dual-purpose tracked vehicles

And after Stouretkin, little has changed.
A familiar dean of the autotraction faculty complained in 2015 that the developed prototype of a suspension for heavy vehicles, brought to a prototype and tested (not a paper project), is wanted by the Chinese, but the native state not only does not provide funds for R&D, but also ignores initiative developments. ...

[Radical]

Of course, reducing the dependence of the domestic army on foreign equipment is right.

Well, of course, that's why KAMAZ is equipped with gearboxes from a NATO country, but taking advantage of the capabilities of the union state is beyond the ambitions of the bosses! Author - where is the logic?

[Togilen]

They are no longer installed, now there are Chinese GMFs. Don't mislead people.

[Radical]

Quote: Zaurbek

Now they are moving on to replacing the unit and sending it to the contractor ... and from the unit they require a certain operating time in hours or km. Why repair one unit twice if the other leaves without repair?

And if the contractor is already ... not "alive"? What do you think, with the beginning of the war, these contractors will remain safe and sound, even if they are beyond the Urals, or in Siberia? It was during the Second World War that they could transfer the industry to where the Germans could not reach with aviation (and even then they managed - there were isolated cases), but now this trick will not work - there are no people who are able to do this, and simply will not allow it to be done, 21st century in the yard. Therefore, we will have to fight on what is already there, and the problem of import substitution is not just fine words, but a question of the combat stability of troops. Unfortunately, the notorious "import substitution" in the mouths of the current leaders has turned into an empty shell, nothing more.
PS And you say - to the contractor ....

[Kvazar]

Yeah, for this reason, during this time, import substitution of tens of thousands of positions was carried out +) It's just that after the sanctions, this process accelerated sharply (by the way, these import substitution programs have been working for us ... since ~ 2007, for example, lighting equipment for landing aviation to replace 40 lyams was allocated ~ 2 lama bucks then for R&D and there were thousands of such programs throughout the country).
Even by personal example I know. If before that he carried out "import substitution" in the company (if there is a Russian analogue and it is the same we take ours, albeit a little more expensive). Now I had to order the matrix. So they refused to buy! The US / EU company said? Fuck from the beach (and this is from the person whose daughter lives in the USA), pick up an analogue. And so on many positions. And so the mentality really changed as soon as they realized that they had bought today, and tomorrow they simply won’t sell you (they have already passed). And we are not working for the military. A purely civilian sphere is small business.

[Aleks2048]

Like, it is impossible to compare the capabilities of the domestic automotive industry and the trendsetters of the global technical fashion.

If we do not compare them ourselves, then practice will compare them ... And this is already running after the left train.

[trahterist]

There is nothing fundamentally revolutionary in the same Oshkosh.
Quite dense technology, albeit reliable.
I had the opportunity to climb the M-1070 HETS.
A typical military truck, no frills.
And the author has an overly idealized idea of ​​this company, and obviously only from online information.

[Kvazar]

Well, first of all, there is the Urals. Secondly, they restored (rebuilt) the plant in Bryansk under the air defense.
You can simply forget about MZKT. All new equipment will already be on new chassis from domestic manufacturers. This plant is not a tenant at all in an average perspective of ~ 20 years. Because too much money was invested when Lukashenka refused to sell it. Moreover, he called the Russians fools with facts.
And don't forget that we have capitalism. Need a truck put up TK for it. And tell me how much will you pay for OCD? And if you don’t pay how much you will pay per unit (would it be possible to smear R&D there, since a military man is a bunch of tests and is wildly expensive)

[gvozdan]

It looks like there is simply no order. And without TK, the result is HZ. On the other hand, what distinguishes the new from the old:
1) independent suspension
2) automatic transmission
3) frame cabin
1) Is it really necessary if the wheeled version is always a step back for cross-country ability and calculation for roads?
2) Is it really necessary if experienced professional drivers are driving such cars? and the repair, reliability and price of manual transmission and automatic transmission, all other things being equal, differ greatly, especially considering that automatic transmission must also be developed
3) And someone is going to make a tank out of these cars, for these purposes there are typhoons, and a trailer can be fastened to them if necessary.

[REZMovec]

Kama-1 - St. Petersburg development

[hostel]

We look forward to continuing

[Andre___86]

Already how many wrote, there was Afghan, Chechnya, and we still sculpt cabotniks. Really not getting through? Or is it economics?

[timokhin-aa]

The reason is in industrial restrictions, the cabins have to be made somewhere.

[Andre___86]

Since the 80s we can not overcome?))) It's sad.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: timokhin-aa

The reason is in industrial restrictions, the cabins have to be made somewhere.

Eh, no. The reason is in European laws. There is a limitation on the length of the car, 12 meters, it seems, so they make small cabins to increase the van .. But the Americans do not have such restrictions, so they rivet bonnet trucks. And the cabins, very good, were riveted to the ZiL.

[timokhin-aa]

No, there the cab factory is built in such a way that either the lines for scrap are completely handed over, or the old cab is made.

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: timokhin-aa

No, there the cab factory is built in such a way that either the lines for scrap are completely handed over, or the old cab is made.

I was a cab assembler. First on the ZIL-130, then on 4331, and on the bull. And Kamaz collected. So, my opinion is that the KAMAZ cab is much worse in terms of maintainability. There you will hesitate to insert one lobovuhu, in contrast to the zilka, which is 130, which is 4331. By the way, different engines were installed on the zilas. Even though YaMZ, even KamAZ, even English, I don't remember the name.

[Ivan Ivanov_27]

KAMAZ has won the Dakar rally-raid for a year in a row ... And what did it give? They just saw the loot or?

[Diverter]

it did nothing for the defense of the country. in those cars, only the cabin is native.

[trahterist]

Well, why?
They showed what Yaroslavl V-shki are capable of, if they are assembled wisely and using modern technologies (4-valve heads, injection control systems).
It's a joke, from the basic, in a deformed version, 238th with 210hp. remove 840 horses!
Or from the basic 240 to 300hp. remove 1050hp
And only completely idiotic regulations made me change to LipHer.
Hands, brains, desires, alas ...

[Great Mike]

YaMZ has an 8402 engine with a capacity of 850 hp, but there is no box for it ... Allison has to be installed ... MZKT has such a box, but it is made only to order ... 1000 hp. YaMZ does not ...

[Diverter]

somehow I already wrote my opinion, and after reading the article, I only strengthened in it. OPINION: On the supply of: VKS - only BASES; SV - Urals; Navy, Airborne Forces - Kamaz. then the state will have three strong car manufacturers. And so all the supplies from Kamaz and I'm sure that is why it does not move

[Andron59]

Yes, the gunners, after the shot they say: "The rollback is normal!" Apparently not only among the gunners, but also among the customers of military equipment, "the rollback is normal!" They forgot comrade Vereshchagin, they are not offended for the state.

[72jora72]

What is KamAZ doing now?

The whole plant licks piece cars for the Dakars for a year

[EvilLion]

Someone drowns behind the MZKT? Late for MZKT drown.

[Togilen]

Quote: Kvazar

Well, first of all, there is the Urals. Secondly, they restored (rebuilt) the plant in Bryansk under the air defense.

What does the Urals have to do with it, and what nonsense about a newly built plant in Bryansk? I hear a ringing, I don't know where he is -
it's about you to the fullest.
The Bryansk Automobile Plant stood and still stands, of course, in a truncated version after the 90s, early 2000s. And then the plant included the production of bridges, a distribution box, a COM for ZIL-131, which in the 90s were no longer relevant.

[Serg Murchikola]

and I, too, the Urals in the direction of development is more familiar. Simply, the suspension with pumping pressure, the motors are good, like 450-500 hp, the view is terrifying (just kidding), and here the main question for any vehicle remains - fire and explosion safety. The majority of civil KamAZ vehicles, as I understand it, were not very good at this before the last three-story developments. Or is it all good? - that's where the stone of choice is from K, U, and Manov from Europe. K has a large capacity, a range of equipment, a model range. They are more armored (although it is difficult to compare with Typhoon and Mustang, if there are such tests, tell me) and maintainable, M and Europeans burn relatively slowly, light in weight and equipment, good acceleration. But in general, after the peaceful atom / Dakar-3, Russia should complain about trucks on its own, there are practically no direct competitors here

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: Togilen

COM for ZIL-131, which in the 90s were no longer relevant.

Why is this not relevant in the 90s? And in zero they were collected.

[Togilen]

Quote: gvozdan

2) Is it really necessary if experienced professional drivers are driving such cars? and the repair, reliability and price of manual transmissions and automatic transmissions, all other things being equal, vary greatly, especially given the fact that automatic transmissions also need to be developed.

Well, for those who probably don't know history at all. Even during the war in Afghanistan, after many accidents with the MAZ-537, Sovtransavto drivers began to take their seats behind the wheel.
And the current training of drivers in the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, who quite often rolls tanks, air defense systems, self-propelled guns, equipment - deserves only swear words.

[Dzafdet]

KAMAZ was built by the whole country. They originally installed a bunch of imported equipment. The same URALAZ sits mainly on the old Soviet, there are also German machines for reparations received. Having such a base, the exhaust from KAMAZ is small. I hope that with the change of owner, URALAZ will start to climb out of the hole, compete with KAMAZ and make the monopolist wiggle the rolls ...

[Togilen]

So in terms of purchases by such companies as Rosneft, GAZPROM, GAZPROM oil, Transneft, it is the Urals that lead. KAMAZ is "in the lead" in the Ministry of Defense and the communal flat simply because it is the state and the lobby of KAMAZ is very strong. Only now, unlike KAMAZ, other offices included in Rostec look unfortunate. Especially those that do not belong to mechanical engineering.

[Togilen]

Why didn't you like the previous owner? And what will change with the Rod? The GG has a higher office, Russian Machines, she lowers grandmothers to the GG, and there they already rule over the sectors that are most needed and profitable. Only one modernization of the production of GAZ itself and the construction of a plant for YaMZ-530 still hang on the YG and RM as a credit yoke. And here is the main thing. If the state does not have brains (and they do not), they SHOULD help in the modernization of production, especially those that are part of the deck of strategic enterprises. But this is not done.
I will say this. For the production of personal protective equipment, the rocket and space industry, we need (for 2016) about 1450 tons of aramid fibers, and we ourselves produce only +/- 350 tons (sometimes) 400. In the USSR, they built five such industries that were included in the "list of 100 "(that is, throw the supply of nails, mortar, etc. to the combine and send everything there), however, active theft and the cessation of funding in the 90s deprived us of strategic products. Now Kamenskvolokno, which is 40 km away from hostile Ukraine, is being blown away for everyone.
Well, how else can you relate to the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Industry and Trade (a completely schizophrenic office)?

[trahterist]

Let the author also complain about the lack of cruise control.
I do not see any significant advantages of independent suspension on a car of this class (4 × 4, 6 × 6).
Only there is a certain trend, they say, the oshkos have it, so we also need it.
If it comes to that, and Very hotzza, then the Tatra "pipe" is much more promising (BAM and other "north", as well as many regularly running Tatras across the immense to this day, they have brilliantly confirmed this).
Simply, without any multi-link perversions, as in the ever-memorable Oshkosh.
As well as the automatic gearbox.
No doubt, it's more convenient to ride, but as soon as a breakdown, great sadness begins.
By the way, even on civilian trunk lines, automatic transmissions cannot be said to be very much appreciated, although this option is present in all manufacturers of "tadpoles" as standard, and the matter is not only in the price (there is just a tiny difference). Why so?

[realist]

there is a cargo Ural, it would like to roll up an independent suspension and please, our answer to the main democrats in the world! what is difficult?

[Togilen]

there was no more dumb comment

[Bobik012]

Well, just to write! I began to choose quotes that were not very smart, but dropped it, it hurts any heresy of doher

[Dzafdet]

Quote: Togilen

Why didn't you like the previous owner? And what will change with the Rod? The GG has a higher office, Russian Machines, she lowers grandmothers to the GG, and there they already rule over the sectors that are most needed and profitable. Only one modernization of the production of GAZ itself and the construction of a plant for YaMZ-530 still hang on the YG and RM as a credit yoke. And here is the main thing. If the state does not have brains (and they do not), they SHOULD help in the modernization of production, especially those that are part of the deck of strategic enterprises. But this is not done.
I will say this. For the production of personal protective equipment, the rocket and space industry, we need (for 2016) about 1450 tons of aramid fibers, and we ourselves produce only +/- 350 tons (sometimes) 400. In the USSR, they built five such industries that were included in the "list of 100 "(that is, throw the supply of nails, mortar, etc. to the combine and send everything there), however, active theft and the cessation of funding in the 90s deprived us of strategic products. Now Kamenskvolokno, which is 40 km away from hostile Ukraine, is being blown away for everyone.
Well, how else can you relate to the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Industry and Trade (a completely schizophrenic office)?

Under Deripaska, money was simply withdrawn from the plant. Not a ruble was invested in modernization. Do not consider the painting of floors and machines with their movement from place to place as modernization. Automatic lines: year of manufacture 1991-1993. They are already 27-29 years old. In the west they would have been replaced at least three times ... one collapsed on the second shift, so there were no casualties. Closure of production facilities: woodworking, modeling, hydraulics ..

[kova1967]

It seems someone has forgotten that Kamaz is the leader in the production of trucks! Him and the flag in hand! Something I have not heard that Ural or Gaz put their trucks on the Dakar rally. MAZ only in 2020 and that bonnet one that I have not seen! And KAMAZ proved to the whole world that it is the best! So who else does not have to dictate conditions in the domestic market. And our engines have already learned to make no worse than imported ones and even more reliable! This is what I say as a professional driver. They work perfectly, the resource is large and not so capricious!

[Mordvin 3]

Quote: kova1967

They work perfectly, the resource is large and not so capricious!

And how much is the resource? I’ll argue with you.

[timokhin-aa]

And our engines have already learned how to make no worse than imported ones and even more reliable! This is what I say as a professional driver. They work perfectly, the resource is large and not so capricious!

Will you name the domestic million-strong motor?

[Togilen]

Come on, especially about engines, tell me the bikes. Let's laugh together.
Then Uralaz was on Dakar in 1992 Paris - Moscow - Beijing, with a Ural-43223 car with a Deutz engine.
Two behind KAMAZ was always A - made in Tatarstan, B - made in Russia, otherwise we would have rebuilt the engine plant after a fire in a year, believe YaMZ would simply spit just like the YaZD ZIL. Market conditions are dictated by LAPA Rostec, and not that KAMAZ is the leader because 56% of production goes to the army and communal services. I didn't know, well, now you know.
And you are not speaking as a driver, you are speaking as one of those who from the factory start posting to the forums for RT and PAO.

[Great Mike]

What does the production of the KamAZ-Master team have to do with the serial production of KamAZ?

[Evgeny Seleznev]

Quote "There is still no automatic transmission, serial torque converter and independent suspension", and there is enough money for cartoons and wunderfals. In the article, the author talks about moral and technical obsolescence. This can already be called systemic degradation.

[Dmitry Vladimirovich]

Until now, there is no own automatic transmission, a serial torque converter and independent suspension. The fact that engineers from Naberezhnye Chelny are frankly marking time in the niche of multi-purpose army trucks is evidenced by the level of modern foreign analogues.

In the mid-2000s, KAMAZ was forced to close its representative office in the PRC - they simply could not sell anything, local products were both more modern and cheaper.
That is, the bell rang long ago.
By the end of the 2000s, Chinese components appeared on the assembly lines of KAMAZ - steering columns, clutches, etc.
Kamaz is an example of the state's unreasonable approach to production and state orders.
If there is a state order, why do something better? Warriors already take it and don't cough ...

[Red_Graphic]

Well, the result of using "oshkoshi" is perfectly visible. They get stuck when, in theory, they shouldn't, and break / lose wheels when landing from the air. Yes, and their automation overheats something in the heat. And the issue is not solved with a cloth dipped in water.

[Roman Anisimov]

the author forgot (or did not know? and he is too lazy to find out ?!) about the RK 6522 - an analogue of the Steyer handout, forgot about the heavy bridges 6522 - reworked Madara (Madara has not been installed for a long time), about the fact that there are 6HP602 / 902, as well as you can supply 16S1820 / 22, produced in Naberezhnye Chelny at the facilities of ZF-Kama. but these are trifles, the main thing is to hyip "KAMAZ is the bottom!" And yes! What the Ministry of Defense ordered - that KAMAZ produced. If the Ministry of Defense orders yog - KAMAZ does exactly that.

[shark507]

Quote: Zaurbek

With the tog that on fresh automatic transmissions there are 8-9 steps

Steps 8-9 are pure marketing. Have you ever wondered why in the "pre-marketing" era they got by with 3-speed automatic transmissions? Yes, and on the mechanics nowadays 5-6 gears cost.