Military Review

The myth about the superiority of Wehrmacht pistols over the weapons of the Red Army - origins and analysis

297

As a rule, such myths are generated by "historians" and other "experts" of the liberal persuasion, who are not fed with bread - let me tell everyone that in that war we won almost "accidentally" and "in spite of", "filled up with corpses", and so on and so forth. Having stumbled across the vast expanses of the Internet on the writings of another similar "clever man", I found, in particular, the following passage:


The "short barrels" that were in service with the Red Army were of such poor quality and had such low performance characteristics that German pistols became the most coveted trophies for the Red Army men of all ranks and ranks.

According to the deep conviction of the author of the quoted text, “the superiority of the same Parabellum as a personal weapons over our TT was absolute ", and it was this" fact "that became the reason that our commanders and soldiers massively picked up the" perfect creations of German gunsmiths "on the battlefields. What is true in this statement? Just a mention of the fact that in the active army (by the way, not only there), many Walters, Parabellums and Mauser, who had military trophies as their origin, went "from hand to hand". Everything else is an absolute lie.

I will not even try to argue with the thesis about the demand for German pistols in the Red Army - it is evidenced by many front-line photographs in which our valiant soldiers are captured precisely with well-recognized short-barreled samples of the German military industry. However, the reasons for this phenomenon were completely different than the low quality of Soviet weapons! Which ones? Now I will name them, reducing them to three main ones.

First of all, the fact was that according to the Charters and all other regulatory documents, private short-barreled weapons (and most junior commanders of the sergeant level) in the Red Army were not supposed to have personal short-barreled weapons at all! If you are not a driver tank, the commander of a machine gun or mortar crew, then here's a Mosin rifle or, if you're lucky, a submachine gun - and into battle. There were a few more exceptions, but only confirming the general rule: a pistol or revolver is a weapon of command personnel.

As a confirmation, I can cite an excerpt from the staffing list of one of the rifle regiments (from 1942), where for 165 command personnel and 59 command personnel with more than 670 junior command personnel and 2270 ordinary pistols and revolvers, 224 were supposed - that is, clearly according to the number " commanders and chiefs ". This is just a document, and not someone's idle inventions. But short-barreled weapons in war are needed, as practice shows, for everyone! Especially its importance increases during street battles, fights in a confined space, where you can't really turn around with a rifle - in houses, on stairs, and in the same trench, by the way, too.

In hand-to-hand combat, a pistol traditionally plays the role of a "last-chance weapon", the presence or absence of which affects the life of a fighter. Imagine for a second that a hefty, one hundred kilograms, Fritz kid fell on you, his weight firmly clamped your "three-ruler" and trying on how to stick a sharp knife or bayonet into your throat. Why, he will strangle him with his hands, a fat fascist! In such a situation, one salvation is a pistol stored in your pocket or in your bosom. This is not to mention the fact that standard weapons may fail, break, or run out of ammunition. A "fallback" is simply irreplaceable here.

It is clear that a soldier or a sergeant could only get hold of such a useful little thing in battle. Moreover, no one would try to pick up the weapons left over by their own commanders, except perhaps a suicide. Prove then to the special officers ... And the immediate superior, seeing the "ownerless" TT on the soldier's side, would not stroke the head - except perhaps. But the German pistols that were not handed over as they should be looked at much easier: if he took it in battle, he had the right. Yes, and the "fathers-commanders" themselves, as a rule, preferred, in addition to TT or Nagan, to have somewhere in the pocket of breeches, tiny in comparison with them officer Walter RRK or Mauser. Just in case.

The second reason is purely moral. The presence of a trophy enemy weapon in a person testified to his valor, daring, in the end, shelling no less weighty and visible than a medal or order, which, especially at the beginning of the war, only a few could boast. Not that they did not deserve it - they were rarely awarded then. Yes, some photographs from the family archives, in which yesterday's boys parabellum parabellum or Waltera, clearly showing off, cause a smile. Just don't forget how they got these things. And at the same time, the fact that these boys who survived in 1945 smashed the "millennial Reich" into small smithereens.

Well, the third reason is purely mercantile and down-to-earth. War has its own laws - both written and unwritten. Relationships arise between people that do not fully fit into the framework of the charter. And the war also has its own "currency": smoke, alcohol, food not from the "common pot". And the weapon, of course, is such that it could become an enviable gift with which you can "resolve the issue" with some staff officer. After all, he also has a trophy for hunting, but where can he get it? And you, for example, need to transfer to another part or urgently go on vacation, or even bother for one of your comrades in arms in some matter. Why not respect the right person? In the end, a trophy pistol could simply be exchanged for something useful or tasty.

By the way, trophy German pistols were considered a particularly valuable "souvenir" among one very specific category of pilots. Specifically - from the pilots who delivered cargo for the front line to our glorious partisans. After all, it seems that a person does the most necessary thing - without the help of the "Big Land", the people's avengers can not. And still not a fighter, not a bomber. So, some kind of "truck" ... I got this detail from the memoirs of some partisan commanders - pilots with the coveted trophies they wholeheartedly presented. And what? Good people are happy, but they themselves have such good - in bulk.

These are, in fact, all the real, not far-fetched reasons for the popularity of German pistols among the soldiers and commanders of the Red Army during the Great Patriotic War. No one thought to replace them with powerful, reliable, long-range service TTs and Nagans. They played the role of nothing more than an additional, spare weapon, or even a front-line "currency". We have defeated the enemy with our Soviet weapons - and there is nothing to write about!
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297 comments
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  1. akims
    akims 3 January 2021 04: 47
    +24
    Trophy weapons were often awarded. An award sheet and a weapon permit were issued. But after the war, if you are not a senior officer, he was strongly recommended to surrender.
    1. Snail N9
      Snail N9 3 January 2021 06: 27
      +13
      There is an episode in the film "Brothers in Arms" where one of the American soldiers dreamed of a "Parabellum" pistol, finally got it as a trophy and was so happy with it that he constantly got it and played it. I got to the point where I shot myself and inflicted a mortal wound on myself .... I had to hold both TT and P-38 and Parabellum in my hands. But they never fired. If we talk about the "grip", then the TT's grip is inconvenient - the angle of inclination of the handle is inconvenient, the handle is shallow and slippery, it is inconvenient to cock the trigger with one hand. The R-38's grip is also inconvenient - the tilt of the grip is uncomfortable, the grip is thick, when you cocking the bolt, the back of the hammer needle hits the part of the hand between the thumb and forefinger - unpleasant, I don't know how it will be when shooting ... The Parabellum has a good grip -the tilt of the handle and the handle itself are very comfortable. But the tight shutter platoon-notch "cheeks" of the shutter cuts fingers, unpleasantly without gloves. They say that when firing, the shells can hit the shooter's face - he did not check (did not shoot).
      1. Insurgent
        Insurgent 3 January 2021 06: 36
        +19
        The myth about the superiority of Wehrmacht pistols over the weapons of the Red Army - origins and analysis

        An interesting comparative video analysis of the properties of the personal weapons of an officer of the Red Army, and pistols of the armies of Germany and the United States.

      2. Bryanskiy_Volk
        Bryanskiy_Volk 3 January 2021 07: 33
        +7
        Regarding the "grip", it depends on who is under, that the hands are sharpened hi
      3. kytx
        kytx 3 January 2021 09: 31
        +9
        I held all this in my hands and tested it. I liked the couple, but my personal choice is TT
        1. halpat
          halpat 3 January 2021 13: 45
          +4
          Quote: kytx
          I held all this in my hands and tested it. I liked the couple, but my personal choice is TT

          TT is narrow, "intelligent" in comparison with Yarygin, for example.
          And in comparison with Beretta 92, Ceset ...
          But it shoots like a howitzer laughing both in sound and feel. The cartridge is different, more powerful.
          1. kytx
            kytx 3 January 2021 13: 51
            +2
            TT hard is the angel of death
            1. Intruder
              Intruder 4 January 2021 00: 30
              +2
              TT hard is the angel of death
              gloomy Soviet genius, an epic example of a self-loading short-barrel, in the first half of the 20th century, and the best "friend of a mercenary" in the Russian Palestinians in the 90s :)))
              1. kytx
                kytx 4 January 2021 00: 36
                +1
                well, like this! killer's favorite weapon
                1. Intruder
                  Intruder 4 January 2021 00: 55
                  +1
                  Shh, why tear off the covers so quickly !? :))) a specialist in "crisis business", a killer somehow, less ..., a lot of bloodiness is superfluous :)
                2. akinak-f
                  akinak-f 5 February 2021 10: 42
                  0
                  Here the whole joke is that military-made TTs did not have serial numbers.
                  1. kytx
                    kytx 5 February 2021 10: 51
                    0
                    Chinese TTs had numbers "from the bulldozer" and cost a penny
                    a very popular thing in the 90s
                    throw it away
            2. dgonni
              dgonni 4 January 2021 00: 55
              0
              Try not to shoot with shovels, but European ones.
              A completely different feeling.
              Looks like our cartridges of gunpowder poured more. For what is the officer going to shoot? If in the trenches, then his PPSh is the main tool, and the rear officers and pilots are only in the banks. And for all sorts of ppsh with ppsy more gunpowder more exhaust.
              Maybe gunpowder is not a fountain. Although the first option is more likely.
              It shoots softly on its own Mauser.
              Only inconvenient. Although there is anyone here.
              Luger is heavy, accurate. Very comfortable grip. Yes! The recoil is soft. Nice car. Although as for me, the 38th is better and more comfortable.
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 01: 12
                0
                Our Asians made gunpowder. Now invented from hemp and flax.
                1. aglet
                  aglet 4 January 2021 11: 05
                  +3
                  "Our Asians made gunpowder. Now they invented it from hemp and flax."
                  our gunpowder was not made by Asians, but from Asian cotton. Asians from this cotton only sewed robes. and now they make wood from cellulose, that is.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                  2. Edvid
                    Edvid 8 January 2021 04: 59
                    +1
                    The best quality gunpowder is obtained from hemp. In Russia until 1917. and after - until the sixties, hemp was called "the queen of the fields". For her record harvests, the Heroes of Labor were awarded Gold Stars. The arch of the VDNKh entrance in Moscow was crowned with a sheaf of hemp ...
              2. kytx
                kytx 5 February 2021 11: 01
                0
                Yes
                the Soviet cartridge had a more powerful charge
                therefore, it is not recommended to shoot with a Soviet cartridge from a Mauser
                fraught
          2. Dreamboat
            Dreamboat 3 January 2021 21: 01
            +10
            Fighting is always more handy with regular weapons. Here and the supply of cartridges, and spare parts, repairs, and the skill worked out. But as a special stage it may well be a trophy. In addition, the short-barreled in real war is a "consumable". From the same recollections of the front-line soldiers, they took 2-3 pistols with them in the attack, because when you were already in the enemy's trench, there was no time to reload the weapon, they just threw in and snatched out a new one. Especially with Nagans and unaccounted for trunks, for which you do not need to report later.
            And about the advantage: look how many samples of our shooters were adopted by the Wehrmacht.
            The quality of TTs to military models and what was produced in the first years of the war are completely different. German weapons have the same difference with end-of-war weapons. Read about VolksSturm's weapons.
          3. Alexfly
            Alexfly 5 January 2021 14: 07
            0
            Yes, okay, and CZ, and HP, and 1911 shoot like cannons .... TT is a little bit biting and that's it .. Slightly refine the TT, replace the earring with a contour (if possible) and forward into the world of sports shooting fans .... sorry in Russia such a thing ... And then the main hunting cartridge 7,62x39 FMJ ..... It's a pity to watch
      4. Alien From
        Alien From 3 January 2021 12: 24
        +1
        I largely agree with you! The most convenient in terms of grip is parabellum, and the sleeves can easily fly off in the face.
      5. Alexfly
        Alexfly 3 January 2021 13: 37
        +6
        With TT, everything is fine with the perforation, the trigger is well controlled with the thumb. There are, of course, wishes, for example, wooden cheeks instead of Bakelite ones ... and perhaps a little thicker, but you can get used to the grip, not the Glock))))
        1. Split
          Split 4 January 2021 15: 51
          +1
          Yes, I already wrote it below. TT is a bit thin, and if the palm is not palm, then it is difficult to hold it .... here I agree by 146% with everything. By the way, I don’t know why the glocks are praised, I can’t say about everyone, I shot only with 34. So, in terms of accuracy, my result on the taurus is 2 times better by 25 meters! And the Taurus is essentially a sports version of the 92 Beretta sad
      6. Split
        Split 3 January 2021 15: 35
        +7
        Quote: Snail N9
        I had to hold in my hands both TT and R-38 and Parabellum

        I shot from everyone, my father's position on the "Silk Road" from ubekistan through our city ... they seized not only fruits / vegetables, but also weapons. But in shooting Parabellum is gorgeous, very accurate, smooth recoil, there is no such feeling of lifting (xs how to describe). 38, as well as 5..99, etc. - beautiful I do not argue, but I did not like it. Here are 96 classics, unfortunately I didn't even hold crying But I have the best shooting results on Taurus 92, and on TX62. laughing
        ZY And TT is terrible
        1. Intruder
          Intruder 4 January 2021 00: 33
          +3
          And TT is terrible
          it is simply canonical - brutal, not for every and every shooter, as well as samples of the western short-barrel, by the way :)))
          1. Split
            Split 4 January 2021 15: 20
            +2
            it is still thin because of the used cartridge and 1 inline magazine (although the cartridge on the welt is the same as 9para ... at school he still carried 3 pieces with him as a talisman). I fired with HP and 1911 ... They lie perfectly in the hand, the weight is yes ... to carry such a thing on a constant, but they inspire. All in all excellent!
            He himself had a PSM in the state, in fact, then already in civilian life he owned an Izh-10-79TM + akbs + (unlike the combat one, he used it as intended 9 times) ... I even accidentally dragged it into the Kremlin courtyard ... forgot to pull it out, but the guards tupanula laughing , although in principle it is always possible to hand over to the safe
        2. anjey
          anjey 4 January 2021 13: 58
          +1
          Found TT in the late 80s in the SA, was still in service in some units laughing , comparing with shooting from the PM, the preference for TT, the barrel does not throw much to the top, the descent and shooting are softer ...
      7. Roman 4912
        Roman 4912 3 January 2021 22: 52
        +2
        In TT, the grip under the fingers is not formed, the angle of inclination is made in accordance with the shooting instructions at that time.
        R-38 the same song about the angle of inclination - to weaken the recoil.
        R-98 is good for everyone. Only ejection of the liner - * up to the right * Therefore, with wear, it was possible to get on the forehead
        1. Split
          Split 4 January 2021 15: 28
          +1
          In our shooting galleries, you can even get a spelled sleeve by a ricochet from the side wall .... I once got hit by the collar ... I probably put on the fuse for eternity ... the barrel should be either in my hands or on a safety catch soldier ... the burn was left with a scar on the back ... I fired from the PMM, there is not just a sleeve, even the barrel heats up like hell - gunpowder is also of increased power there (I can't remember the brand right now)
        2. Split
          Split 4 January 2021 15: 45
          +3
          By the way, even I remembered a case in a cop ... there were shooting ... A young guy, a sergeant from the PPS. Shoots a troika ... the last misfire ... and this one starts putting the gun down on the table! .... I only had time to shout and rush ... I hear the sound of metal on the shelf ... and then a shot ... a shout ... the dude falls down pinching the causal place ... The first thought ricocheted off the bullet ... the wound. As a result, it turned out that the barrel flew off to him, it is clear where ... Of course, they whinnied later, but more from relief. I myself am a hunter, I shot a lot of 20 caliber ... our capsules .. xxx .. were ... quite often there was a prolonged shot. It was just a whip was brass cases. With chewing in my memory was only 1 or 2 lingering. So we even poured a couple of peas (bars) into the chew. But you need to carefully equip ... a couple of times the capsules are babakhal, the pore gets between the anvil and the foil, sometimes due to static
          ZY The most important skill and must always be remembered. Misfire ... you stand waiting at least 3 seconds without taking the barrel anywhere
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 15: 52
            +1
            Quote: Split
            Misfire ... you stand waiting at least 3 seconds without taking the barrel anywhere

            It's buulshit. I went wild with hunting cartridges from a '43 rocket launcher. After the fifth round, the barrel fell off. Uncle brewed it. After the tenth round, the handle fell apart in half ... laughing Dad threw him out in the forest.
            1. Split
              Split 4 January 2021 15: 59
              +3
              Well, you are my friend, comedian wassat yelled. I approach this carefully.
              I remember the guys seeing how the kid weighs gunpowder at the drugstores, even sprinkles the shot with starch. Neighing ... that's only when I removed 0000 geese by 2! meters, which no one dared to take - the laughter stopped. Moreover, they gave me leopards later (there was a deficit then) so that I could equip. As a result, in a couple of years I was probably able to provide the hunter division with cartridges laughing
              ZY I never understood people who go gosling with grapeshot 5. The debris is less, even if it does, the wounded animals leave. As soon as the bird dies ... it's good if it flies not far away - the small ones will find it and pick it up. But still 1 rule - if you are not sure - do not shoot.
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 16: 06
                0
                Quote: Split
                Well, you are my friend, comedian

                So you can't erase words from a song. It was in the 95th year. He punched a hole the size of a fist in the rural toilet.
          2. Intruder
            Intruder 4 January 2021 19: 05
            +1
            Misfire ... you stand waiting at least 3 seconds without taking the barrel anywhere
            , or you maintain a safe direction so that no potential targets, no ricochet factor !!!
          3. dmmyak40
            dmmyak40 4 January 2021 21: 22
            0
            As I understand it, misfires are the case of Centroboy? It was also a lot with him.
          4. Biodred
            Biodred 8 January 2021 14: 26
            0
            What kind of fairy tales? Since 1991 he hunted, never had a lingering shot or misfire. That with brass sleeves and "centrobay", that with cardboard / plastic and "chewed". Once only it was not even protracted, but zilch - even the shot container did not fly out of the barrel, but there the cartridge was not home equipment, but the factory one. I think the powder is not brought to the norm.

            Threat that's what happened, it was a dull lack of "centroboy" in the 90s, because brass sleeves were drilled under the "chewed". Kustarshina, but where to go?
            1. Split
              Split 8 January 2021 14: 52
              0
              I don’t know, this is 87-89 ... 20/76 IZH27 1C brass + falcon + centrobe. I was small then, so 12-16 was hard to shoot. Fired more than 1 shots with a falcon. There were about a dozen misfires and about 3-4 lingering ones. Paper cartridges were few. I annealed the sleeves before straightening, the anvils seemed to be normal. And this even with the addition of powder under the capsules. After the appearance of the leopard, there were no more problems. Only a couple of misfires. Then I shot 12/16 on paper with chewing - there was only 1 misfire, the capsule turned out to be defective (the anvil was shorter)
              1. Biodred
                Biodred 8 January 2021 15: 02
                0
                Well, I don’t know, maybe it was not about the capsules, but about the shitty mainspring of your multi-gun car? Because here's something, but I can't complain about the quality of the capsules for the whole time. By the way, I have never used Bars. "Sunar" tried, but he did not come. So the "Falcon" and only him.

                By the way, "was small" - how's that? My first gun was 16 gauge - Izhevsk hammer. And I fired without any problems.
                1. Split
                  Split 8 January 2021 15: 15
                  +1
                  No, I always checked it before the trip in the old sleeve instead of the primer, flush with lead and "shot"
                  I was 8 years old, and I was thin as a child, so I shot 20. When you shoot hundreds of shots a day + 76 with a sleeve - it becomes critical, tk. there even a falcon recoil is strong. The leopard is generally harsh ... the density is higher and the burning rate is higher. But its advantage is that the volume of the sample is less, more space remains for the wad + sprinkling with starch does not damage the shot - the talus is perfectly uniform and the penetration depth is even
                  1. Biodred
                    Biodred 10 January 2021 12: 55
                    +1
                    Well, as a child, I was not fat either. By the way, about 1991, I got excited. This is for driven hunting with my father since 1991, and for ducks since 1988. I was then 9 years old, this very hammer 16kl was almost as long as me. No problem shooting.
                    1. Split
                      Split 10 January 2021 19: 37
                      0
                      Hammer!
                      ZY Yazh spoke, depending on what kind of gunpowder to shoot ... in 20 caliber this is the ceiling of a leopard ... it is impossible to lower it, it is very powerful. Then the wolves went to the flags, there were shots out of season winked Although when on wolves, Izh was with wolf buckshot, and sat himself with a leopard-1, which is 5,45 to 39. Actually, then I took 1 wolf, I even had a hat made of it repeat
                      1. Biodred
                        Biodred 10 January 2021 22: 41
                        0
                        But I have never seen a wolf, eh ...
                      2. Split
                        Split 10 January 2021 23: 14
                        0
                        at the end of 80 in Kazakhstan there was a whole misfortune, and there were such - a mixture of an intimate wolf and a dog. They, as the rules, were the leaders of the pack and ran through the flags. Destroyed first. They didn’t take me to the pen, all the same it’s dangerous for the kid. In a UAZ I stood on the watchtower ala art near the flags to take wounded animals or these. He shot from 300 meters, hit the back collarbone, he could not stand behind, crawling with the front. It is a pity of course ... the 2nd did not hit, took off the 3rd in the neck.
                        The peasants congratulated me on the first ... wash ... bacon with garlic and a pile for peace ... then I was knocked out of emotions and accepted after 10 minutes drinks lol
                        ZY He ran over the flags, and this should not be allowed ... of course I still do not understand this quirk, why they cannot run through them, but learn quickly. It costs 1 to run - the whole flock will run
                        ZYY I was shooting with optics, though I don't remember what kind of sight it was, then I didn't really understand them, 4x, column and markings lateral and vertical for a distance. In general, some kind of military man. At that time I was shooting in principle at 1 youth. But on target at 300 meters for the first time
                      3. Biodred
                        Biodred 13 January 2021 21: 38
                        0
                        Cool, what can I say ... I've been shooting to hell - well, my father was an officer of the Airborne Forces, plus I went to the rifle section of DOSAAF (as a result - the CMM using a bullet rifle), but I have problems with optics - I never mastered it.
                      4. Split
                        Split 14 January 2021 19: 20
                        0
                        With optics, yes, there you need to develop breathing techniques. First, you saturate the blood with oxygen, then you hold your breath and shoot as you exhale. Otherwise, you will not catch the target. It's easier with a front sight, the target is small and the fluctuations are not so noticeable and you shoot more confidently
  • Black Colonel
    Black Colonel 5 January 2021 01: 25
    0
    My brother had a chance to shoot from TT in the army. Thing! - said. Beats - bless you! He liked the pistol very much.
  • Vladimir54
    Vladimir54 2 February 2021 12: 27
    0
    So I had to hold these three devices. By the way, and shoot too, the last on the left. And the TT is lying on the table. 44 years of release. (For especially vigilant, killed by a caliber of 4.5 mm. In our time).
    Put the TT in the right back pocket of your jeans. Face the target. The cartridge is in the chamber, the pistol is pre-cocked (for the TT, this is a safety catch). Then you lower your hand along the trajectory so that your thumb hits the trigger, your little finger hits the outer corner of the magazine, and the index finger to the fabric of the pants under which the trigger key. With your thumb and your little finger you pull out the pistol, while at the same time with a greater (than your little finger) force you cock the trigger, with it (with your finger) you turn the weapon with the barrel horizontally towards the target. At this time, the index the finger hits the trigger. As soon as the barrel has passed the upper edge of the pocket, you simultaneously turn the barrel onto the target, without deliberately stretching your hand with the weapon forward (so as not to waste time and not knock down the aiming, no matter how paradoxical it may seem) and press the trigger. After training what I described takes 0.2 seconds .. I can't do this with one of the above pistols. I would describe the reasons, but laziness. Luger is a purely targeted weapon, with such a grip e hand quickly gets tired, Walter is an ordinary, outdated officer's weapon, you described one of its shortcomings.
  • d ^ Amir
    d ^ Amir 8 January 2021 11: 38
    0
    deactivated, saw "Walther" without "giblets" and with a barrel filled with lead, they said - "premium", but I did not see any marks, engravings, overlays on it
  • apro
    apro 3 January 2021 04: 51
    -12%
    Again with anguish ... the German weapons are bad because the Germans lost? Yes. to admit that the Germans knew how and are able to create a worthy weapon, faith does not allow.
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 3 January 2021 05: 33
      +14
      Again with anguish ... the German weapons are bad because the Germans lost?

      Frost still interfered ... bedbugs terrorized the private household even in pants ... smile you will now say a bunch of reasons.
      And so the author expounds everything correctly ... from an everyday point of view, I would do exactly the same as described in the article ... war is a war and it would be nice to exchange parabellum or Walther for a gift to relatives at home ... you won't hammer nails at home with a pistol ... he is not good for more in peacetime hi
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 06: 07
        +2
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        he is no good for more in peacetime

        You can sell, on US sites they sell for $ 5000, quite a good price.
        1. Lech from Android.
          Lech from Android. 3 January 2021 07: 29
          0
          You can sell, on US sites they sell for $ 5000, quite a good price.

          There are fewer and fewer rarities left ... everything goes by the hands of collectors ... it would be nice to look into the hidden treasuries of our Motherland ... you can surely see such wealth there. what
        2. sibiryouk
          sibiryouk 3 January 2021 08: 20
          +6
          There were no sites in the USSR in 1945!
        3. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 15: 26
          0
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          You can sell, on US sites they sell for $ 5000, quite a good price.

          300 bucks schmeiser, and a bucket of cartridges in the 90s ...
        4. Cetron
          Cetron 3 January 2021 20: 09
          +2
          After 1945, 10 years of work rest in northern resorts, for illegal possession of weapons.
      2. zenion
        zenion 3 January 2021 15: 07
        +3
        Sometimes it happens. I came to visit and brought my photos. The hostess of the house looked at all the photos and said - you have a good camera. The table was set. At the same time they put borsch on the table. The photographer ate borscht and praised - you have a good saucepan.
      3. Captain Pushkin
        Captain Pushkin 3 January 2021 15: 45
        +5
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        .nails at home, after all, you won't hammer with a pistol ... it is not suitable for more in peacetime

        In wartime too.
        My father said that during the war he never fired a pistol. But from a rifle, and then from the PPS, I had to shoot. In assault units, they were armed with machine guns up to and including the company commander.
        And about hand-to-hand combat he said: "What kind of hand-to-hand combat? As long as I have a machine gun, I won't let anyone near me."
      4. Olgovich
        Olgovich 3 January 2021 19: 37
        +1
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        And so the author explains everything correctly

        Not really: captured weapons were supposed to be handed over.
        1. bubalik
          bubalik 3 January 2021 19: 42
          +1
          ,,,perpetrators of damage and theft of trophy property must be held accountable for this to the fullest extent of the law. yes
        2. dmmyak40
          dmmyak40 4 January 2021 22: 24
          +2
          Father, captain of SMERSH, brought back from the war some kind of captured German pistol, I can't say which one as a child. Was, was, and then disappeared ... I think I hid it somewhere, and then they forgot about the pistol, it's a pity ... All that was left of the trophies was a brown leather wallet, there was also an order strap on a pin, but her son stole a neighbor! am
        3. Black Colonel
          Black Colonel 5 January 2021 01: 28
          -1
          I see no logic in the surrender of captured weapons.
      5. Zug
        Zug 7 January 2021 18: 31
        0
        A regular question to all veterans from Drabkin - which pistol was preferred if there was an opportunity? P98 - why - because it is better, more precisely, better processed, etc. According to the first persons, the German carbine will be better - the fight is more accurate. The finish is better. Whoever of the veterans just so hail the German rifleman in general. Maybe a few do not remember much.
        1. Illanatol
          Illanatol 13 January 2021 14: 03
          0
          The Germans also appreciated "soviet" weapons. And SVT-40, and PPSh and PPS. Probably the "tokarev" was not thrown out if it fell into the hands.
    2. alexey alexeyev_2
      alexey alexeyev_2 3 January 2021 06: 27
      +12
      Finally, the author does not question the merit of the German weapons school.
    3. Revolver
      Revolver 3 January 2021 11: 42
      +12
      Once in a hundred years, Kharaluzhny also publishes a not quite disgusting article. The Soviet short-barrel was so good that the Germans did not disdain them either. Does the Pistole 615 (r) say anything? German index under which trophy TTs were taken into account. It was issued as a service weapon, including in front-line units.
      Revolver 612 (r), respectively, the Nagant index. It was mainly used in rear, security, and national (such as the Ukrainian 14. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Galizien) units, as well as for special operations where it was undesirable to leave spent cartridges behind. The revolver, unlike pistols, kept the casings in the drum, and unlike other revolvers, it could be equipped with a silencer.
      In general, pistols were a welcome trophy on all fronts. Even among the Americans, although service pistols were given not only to officers, but also to sergeants, and many privates, and no one would say about Colt 1911 “were of such poor quality and had such low performance characteristics,” trophy barrels were valued. Even the Japanese Nambu, which were quite so-so. And the Britons went through the whole war with Webley revolvers, and continued with them right up to the 1970s.
      1. Simargl
        Simargl 3 January 2021 13: 18
        +2
        Quote: Nagan
        about Colt 1911 no one will say "were of such poor quality and had such low performance characteristics"
        They talk about him that the bullet got stuck in the quilted jacket. I readily believe: if you dip a quilted jacket into an ice-hole, wait half an hour in the cold, you can use it as a bulletproof vest.
        1. Biodred
          Biodred 8 January 2021 14: 30
          -1
          why are they talking about it. In one of the programs "Mythbusters" fired from 1911, there the bullet fell to the ground 50m later.
          1. Simargl
            Simargl 8 January 2021 22: 51
            -1
            Quote: BioDRED
            fired from 1911, there a bullet fell to the ground after 50m.
            Wind with stones?
            1. Biodred
              Biodred 10 January 2021 12: 45
              0
              If only in your head. Just a bullet 50m fell to the ground, that's all. There they specially rolled out a roll of white paper from the firing line to the target. Pistol and target - 1.5m from the ground in height. After the shot, they just looked where the hole was on the paper. Your 1911 has no muzzle velocity, and the bullet is healthy. And mind you, before throwing stupidly with sleepers, I did not think of it, I saw it.
              1. Simargl
                Simargl 10 January 2021 13: 42
                0
                Quote: BioDRED
                I saw it.
                t = √ (2h / g), bullet speed about 200 m / s (on average, initial 250-270 m / s), barrel height 1,5 m, i.e. if the fall time is t = √ (2 * 1,5 / 9,8) = 0,55 s, which is about 100 m.
                1. Biodred
                  Biodred 10 January 2021 13: 50
                  0
                  Well, it is not known what kind of cartridge they fired. The transverse load of a bullet, it is different, and with it, different flatness. I'm talking about what was shown in the program. However, from the point of view of penetrating a padded jacket, 50m or 100m is not a big difference. If there is one who is trying to shoot the enemy at such a distance.
                  1. Simargl
                    Simargl 10 January 2021 20: 07
                    0
                    Quote: BioDRED
                    Bullet transverse load, it can be different, and with it, and different flatness.
                    With an increase in linear dimensions from 9 to 11,51 mm, the area will increase 1,6 times, and the weight of a standard bullet will increase from 7,45 g (for 9x19) to 14,9 g, 2 times and relative to 7,62x25 - in 2,1 times the area and 2,7 times the area, i.e. large bullets will lose speed more slowly.

                    Quote: BioDRED
                    I'm talking about what was shown in the program.
                    Can I have a link? Interesting.
                    1. Biodred
                      Biodred 10 January 2021 22: 38
                      0
                      link is not allowed. Open the torrent, download the "destroyers" archive and watch. As for weight, weight does not necessarily depend on the linear dimensions of the bullet. The bullet can be tracer, can be with a core, can be sheathed or all-lead. It seems like cartridges for the same weapon, but the weight of the bullet and, accordingly, the lateral load are different.
                      1. Simargl
                        Simargl 11 January 2021 13: 53
                        0
                        Quote: BioDRED
                        The bullet can be tracer, can be with a core, can be sheathed or all-lead.
                        Can. But are we talking about a standard pool?
                        Quote: BioDRED
                        It seems like cartridges for the same weapon, but the weight of the bullet and, accordingly, the lateral load are different.
                        Shear load? wassat lol
                        Quote: BioDRED
                        link is not allowed. Open the torrent, download the "destroyers" archive and watch.
                        It's a pity ... to watch a lot ...
                      2. Biodred
                        Biodred 13 January 2021 21: 34
                        0
                        We're talking about what we shot in the transmission. And I say - I don't know what kind of cartridges were there.
                        Yes, bullet lateral loading.
                        Why not take a look? The transmission is interesting by itself.
                      3. Simargl
                        Simargl 14 January 2021 05: 55
                        0
                        Quote: BioDRED
                        And I say - I don't know what kind of cartridges were there.
                        99,999% is a standard jacketed cartridge.
                        Quote: BioDRED
                        Yes, bullet lateral loading.
                        For what?

                        Quote: BioDRED
                        Why not take a look? The transmission is interesting by itself.
                        Laziness. Many "experiments" are staged wildly clumsily.
                      4. Biodred
                        Biodred 15 January 2021 17: 21
                        0
                        The transverse load of a bullet is the ratio of the weight of the bullet to the cross-sectional area of ​​its cylindrical part.

                        an = q / Sn (g / cm2),

                        where q is the weight of the bullet in grams;

                        Sn is the cross-sectional area of ​​the bullet in cm2.

                        The greater the weight of a bullet with the same caliber, the greater its lateral load. Depending on the magnitude of the lateral load, light and heavy bullets are distinguished. Ordinary bullets with a normal caliber (see below) a lateral load of more than 25 g / cm2 and a weight of more than 10 g are called heavy, and bullets of a normal caliber weighing less than 10 g and a lateral load of less than 22 g / cm2 are called light ( Table 39).
                      5. Simargl
                        Simargl 16 January 2021 18: 43
                        0
                        Quote: BioDRED
                        The transverse load of a bullet is the ratio of the weight of the bullet to the cross-sectional area of ​​its cylindrical part.
                        Is it true? I'm trying to explain to you that all other things being equal! And so I can suggest comparing a tungsten elongated smaller caliber and an aluminum hollow large ... or vice versa.
                        Compare equal.
                      6. Biodred
                        Biodred 25 January 2021 00: 16
                        0
                        You do not try to blabber the topic. The fact that a different bullet weight means a different lateral load I said in a few comments above.
                      7. Simargl
                        Simargl 25 January 2021 18: 40
                        0
                        Quote: BioDRED
                        You do not try to blabber the topic.
                        Am I trying to blabber?
                        In fact, I was talking about the fact that they fired, most likely (99 ++% probability, in my opinion) with a standard shell bullet. The same bullets are used in other calibers.
                        You start to smear grease on the cracker.
                      8. Biodred
                        Biodred 28 January 2021 07: 08
                        0
                        Is it okay that in the vast majority of states shell bullets for civilians are stupidly prohibited? That is why their cops in Kevlar armor run around and are not shy about the fact that half-shells and non-shells do not penetrate them.
                      9. Simargl
                        Simargl 28 January 2021 18: 46
                        0
                        Quote: BioDRED
                        half-shells and non-shells do not penetrate them.
                        Body armor has a protection class that determines the energy and lateral load that it can neutralize. Is the soft body armor higher than the second? Well, so-so pleasure.
                        For the civilian market, expansion bullets and with a reinforced core are usually prohibited. Expansive, most often semi-enveloped.
                        But this does not contradict what I said: standard shell bullet. Those. a typical bullet for a given pistol, with which it works best / most reliably.
                        Low.
                      10. Biodred
                        Biodred 29 January 2021 17: 30
                        0
                        "That is, a typical bullet for a given pistol with which it works best / most reliably."

                        I will not even comment on this nonsense.
  • zenion
    zenion 3 January 2021 15: 11
    +1
    Best as a trophy tank. You can ride on it and shoot into the distance, where your eyes cannot see. The Germans were amazing. Such good tanks, and they threw them by the middle of 1934, like the Red Army soldiers by the middle of 1942. Neme gasoline, bastard does not go.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 3 January 2021 16: 05
    +2
    Nagant, about the fact that the Germans used TT and Nagant, I knew, but under what designation?
  • Luty
    Luty 3 January 2021 18: 40
    +1
    The Germans in the Second World War were still those hoarders. And they rowed all in a row, except that the command did not confiscate the captured weapons.
  • Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 3 January 2021 18: 32
    0
    Have you read carefully what is written? Is there somewhere that German weapons are bad? The Germans know how to do, we are able to do the same and it is pointless to argue which weapon is better, we all have advantages and disadvantages. Are you not a liberal? Only they see in everything an attempt to humiliate their masters.
  • Intruder
    Intruder 4 January 2021 00: 43
    +4
    know how to create a worthy weapon, faith does not allow.
    why decided so ??? The geniuses of the Mauser and Schmeisser brothers, worthy types of small arms in the 20th century ... My grandfather (participant and prisoner of war) always spoke with reverence, about the "mad mower" - MG 34/42, who experienced a wall of fire on himself, from this system .. , by the way (for a long time he wore splinters, German "gifts" in his limbs, and always respected the gloomy German genius, he did not have jingoistic patriotism, like modern Russian pensioners :)) !!!
    1. Svidetel 45
      Svidetel 45 5 January 2021 16: 54
      +1
      Well, we're talking about Ivan, and you are talking about Dummy. Who says here and when that German weapons were bad? The point is that our weapons were quite at the level, in what they were inferior, in what they were superior, for example, they were more technological, this is of no small importance for total war.
    2. Mikhail Zhukov
      Mikhail Zhukov 9 January 2021 10: 04
      0
      If only Louis Schmeisser
      1. Intruder
        Intruder 9 January 2021 17: 25
        0
        but what about, a couple more geniuses: Reginald Shepard and Harold Turpin ??? :)
        1. Mikhail Zhukov
          Mikhail Zhukov 10 January 2021 09: 38
          0
          So, it seems, the Germans were mentioned?))
          1. Intruder
            Intruder 10 January 2021 09: 40
            0
            And this is how he finished these Britons with their gloomy English genius, in the form of STAN! :)
            1. Mikhail Zhukov
              Mikhail Zhukov 10 January 2021 09: 41
              0
              Clear)))
  • Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 05: 38
    -9
    This was especially funny
    for Red Army men of all ranks and ranks

    To me, too, "expert"! It's like writing "for privates of all ranks and ranks."
    First of all, the point was that, according to the Charters and all other regulatory documents, private short-barreled weapons (and most junior commanders of the sergeant level) in the Red Army were not supposed to have personal short-barreled weapons at all!

    In my opinion, this was a mistake. For example, the numbers of machine-gun and artillery crews, all sorts of trainers, cooks, logisticians could be given pistols, not rifles.
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 3 January 2021 05: 43
      0
      it would be quite possible to give out pistols to any attendants, cooks, logisticians
      Pistol to the cook ... smile you have not beguiled anything?
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 06: 03
        +1
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        Pistol to the chef ... you got nothing wrong?

        In the Red Army, cooks were given rifles or carbines. Which, of course, lay in the wagon train.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 06: 18
          +3
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Quote: Lech from Android.
          Pistol to the chef ... you got nothing wrong?

          In the Red Army, cooks were given rifles or carbines. Which, of course, lay in the wagon train.

          Gave out
        2. andrewkor
          andrewkor 3 January 2021 07: 29
          +7
          I remembered the film "Father of a Soldier." The main character was initially assigned to the laundresses, carrying water, firewood, and so on. But the rifle still relied on and he, according to the film, carried it all with him.
          1. svp67
            svp67 3 January 2021 16: 20
            0
            Quote: andrewkor
            But the rifle still relied on and he, according to the film, carried it all with him.

            Well, you never know what can happen even in the rear ...
      2. bubalik
        bubalik 3 January 2021 13: 52
        +4
        Pistol to the cook
        ,, could have given nothing at all.

        ,, from state 04/401 dated April 5, 1941.
        The personnel of the rifle regiment since April 1941:
        The economic platoon of the battalion consists of an officer - platoon commander, 3 sergeants and 29 privates, armed with one pistol and 20 rifles. The platoon had one wagon and 4 field kitchens at its disposal.
      3. aglet
        aglet 4 January 2021 11: 11
        -2
        and why would the cook need a rifle? to fry a hare on a bayonet?
        1. Momotomba
          Momotomba 4 January 2021 13: 22
          0
          Quote: aglet
          and why would the cook need a rifle? to fry a hare on a bayonet?

          Each soldier is entitled to a personal weapon. You have to clean and save something. laughing
          1. aglet
            aglet 5 January 2021 08: 32
            0
            "Something must be cleaned"
            but all the same, why?
            1. Momotomba
              Momotomba 5 January 2021 08: 41
              +1
              Quote: aglet
              "Something must be cleaned"
              but all the same, why?

              The military has the whole point of having weapons. This is such a tradition, or something ... Without it, nowhere.
              If you figure out why exactly the rifle was given to the cook, then everything is also simple: the rank of private does not fall under the category of military personnel, whose personal weapon is NOT a RIFLE. The military, in principle, are very logical people ... laughing
    2. svp67
      svp67 3 January 2021 07: 30
      +3
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      For example, the numbers of machine-gun and artillery crews, all sorts of trainers, cooks, logisticians could be given pistols, not rifles.

      What's the point? Why deprive people of weapons with a range of more than 50 meters? What would give them the opportunity to heroically shoot themselves?
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 07: 55
        -5
        Quote: svp67
        What's the point? Why deprive people of weapons with a range of more than 50 meters? What would give them the opportunity to heroically shoot themselves?

        Let's take the calculation of the DP machine gun, it is of two people. What the heck of the second rifle crew? He already drags on his hump a box with three discs, plus more cartridges in bulk. All the same, in battle, the second number does not shoot with a rifle at the enemy, instead of a rifle, a pistol is much preferable, since a fighter begins to carry any load of 3,5 kg (4,5 kg of a rifle with a bayonet -1 kg of a pistol with a holster = 3,5 kg ) less, and this is the weight of 140 rounds for a machine gun! The same applies to the calculations of the Maxim machine gun. Artillerymen also do not shoot at the enemy with carbines, a pistol is enough for them.
        1. svp67
          svp67 3 January 2021 08: 05
          +2
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          What the heck of the second rifle crew?

          And then, to cover up your comrade, and with the provision of patrons, there are no questions ...
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Artillerymen also do not shoot at the enemy with carbines, a pistol is enough for them.

          In war, anything can happen and in particular, you need to be ready to repel an attack by enemy infantry, unexpected attack
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 08: 19
            -3
            Quote: svp67
            And then, to cover up your comrade, and there are no questions with the provision of patrons ..

            Sure sure. Cover with a rifle when there is a machine gun. The task of the second number is not a cover, but assistance to the first number in servicing the machine gun, that is, dragging disks with cartridges and stuffing them, and not shooting at the enemy from a rifle, for this there is a machine gun and other squad and platoon arrows. Providing the second number with cartridges for TT was absolutely no problem, since the infantry had a PPSh and PPS, which had one cartridge with a TT. By the end of the war, PPSh and PPSh were armed with 40% of the infantry.
            Quote: svp67
            In war, anything can happen and in particular, you need to be ready to repel an attack by enemy infantry, unexpected attack

            In this case, it is much more effective to have DP in every artillery crew.
            1. svp67
              svp67 3 January 2021 08: 25
              0
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              Sure sure. Cover with a rifle when there is a machine gun.

              Yes COVER, while the Heavy is doing his job
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              The task of the second number is not a cover, but assistance to the first number in servicing the machine gun, that is, dragging disks with cartridges and stuffing them, and not shooting at the enemy from a rifle, for this there is a machine gun and other squad and platoon arrows.

              You have a poor idea of ​​how the machine gunner acts, often he is in isolation from his squad, ensuring his advance or other actions, at this moment he is covered by the second number, not allowing single infantrymen to approach him at the grenade throw range
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              By the end of the war, PPSh and PPSh were armed with 40% of the infantry.

              How many were there at the beginning?
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              In this case, it is much more effective to have DP in every artillery crew.

              It was an expensive pleasure for the USSR
              1. Kot_Kuzya
                Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 08: 56
                +1
                Quote: svp67
                Yes COVER, while the Heavy is doing his job

                "His job" for the machine gunner is shelling the enemy, and the second number does not make any sense to shoot from a rifle, he should not flash at this time and fill the discs with cartridges.
                Quote: svp67
                You have a poor idea of ​​how the machine gunner acts, often he is in isolation from his squad, ensuring his advance or other actions, at this moment he is covered by the second number, not allowing single infantrymen to approach him at the grenade throw range

                You yourself have a poor idea of ​​the tactics of combat between the rifle squad and the platoon. The machine gunner is not in front of the shooters, but behind the squad and platoon shooters, and therefore he is covered by the shooters going in front. The Heavy is next to the squad or platoon leader, who, again, is behind his subordinates. And this commander indicates to the machine gunner the targets at which he must fire.
                Quote: svp67
                How many were there at the beginning?

                Each commander had TT from the platoon and up. There were plenty of cartridges for TT. This was given to tankers by Nagans, since it was believed that Nagans were more suitable for tankers, as they allow them to fire from tank loopholes.
                Quote: svp67
                It was an expensive pleasure for the USSR

                It is enough to supply the crews of the battalion and regimental level guns with machine guns. Divisional and corps artillery, especially the artillery of the RGK, did not accompany the infantry with wheels.
                1. svp67
                  svp67 3 January 2021 15: 15
                  -2
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  "His job" for the machine gunner is shelling the enemy,

                  No, not just shelling, but creating conditions for the operation of your squad, and this already requires the ability to identify those targets that must either be destroyed or suppressed.
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  The machine gunner is not in front of the shooters, but behind the squad and platoon shooters, and therefore he is covered by the shooters going in front.

                  But not always, he can keep the front, at the moment when the squad will make a flanking maneuver ...
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  Each commander had TT from the platoon and up. There were plenty of cartridges for TT. This was given to tankers by Nagans, since it was believed that Nagans were more suitable for tankers, as they allow them to fire from tank loopholes.

                  So the USSR could not provide tank crews completely with pistols, as a result, they were issued TWO for the crew - the commander and the mech-water, the rest had PP and diesel fuel.
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  It is enough to supply the crews of the battalion and regimental level guns with machine guns.

                  Our battalion artillery was mainly represented by mortars, as well as company, and regimental cannons, which were often used as anti-tank guns. So, that and that or carbines, or PP, machine guns are too heavy.
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  Divisional and corps artillery, especially the artillery of the RGK, did not accompany the infantry with wheels.

                  But this did not mean that their positions or columns could not be attacked by infantry.
                  1. Kot_Kuzya
                    Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 15: 52
                    -2
                    Quote: svp67
                    No, not just shelling, but creating conditions for the operation of your squad, and this already requires the ability to identify those targets that must either be destroyed or suppressed.

                    There are squad and platoon commanders for target designation.
                    Quote: svp67
                    But not always, he can keep the front, at the moment when the squad will make a flanking maneuver ...

                    A squad or platoon does not advance in a spherical horse in a vacuum, no one will advance in a squad or platoon alone. This is the lot of at least a company to take a separate height or building.
                    Quote: svp67
                    So the USSR could not provide tank crews completely with pistols, as a result, they were issued TWO for the crew - the commander and the mech-water, the rest had PP and diesel fuel.

                    That is, on PP and DP weighing 3 and 7 kg, respectively, there were opportunities, but on TT weighing 0,8 kg there were no.
                    Quote: svp67
                    Our battalion artillery was mainly represented by mortars, as well as company, and regimental cannons, which were often used as anti-tank guns. So, that and that or carbines, or PP, machine guns are too heavy.

                    In addition to mortars, the battalion artillery was represented by a platoon of 45 mm cannons in the amount of two pieces. Regimental artillery was not used as a PTO, since a low muzzle velocity and a single-bar carriage with scanty guidance angles were useless as anti-tank guns.
                    Quote: svp67
                    But this did not mean that their positions or columns could not be attacked by infantry.

                    Perhaps, with your logic, attach a company of heavy tanks and a battalion of motorized infantry to each regiment of the RGK? After all, there is a non-zero probability that they will be attacked by infantry. And then they will be greeted by the IS-2 company and mechanized infantry on the armored personnel carrier!
                    1. svp67
                      svp67 3 January 2021 16: 33
                      0
                      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                      That is, on PP and DP weighing 3 and 7 kg, respectively,

                      Not DP, but diesel fuel, it was installed in the tank as a course or twin, and in which case it could be used as a manual one.

                      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                      In addition to mortars, the battalion artillery was represented by a platoon of 45 mm cannons in the amount of two pieces.

                      A platoon of anti-tank guns was expelled from the battalion on July 29, 1941. The anti-tank artillery was returned to the battalion only on December 18, 1944, in the form of a four-gun battery of long-barreled forty-fives of the 1942 model.
                      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                      Regimental artillery was not used as an anti-tank gun, since a low muzzle velocity and a single-bar carriage with scanty aiming angles were useless as anti-tank guns.

                      No, in the PTO they used everything, including the "regiments", cumulative shells were made especially for them.
                      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                      Maybe, with your logic, attach a company of heavy tanks and a battalion of motorized infantry to each regiment of the RGK?

                      According to my logic, they must have communication means (radio stations) in order to have time to report this and the proper amount of weapons, including small arms
                      1. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 17: 36
                        -1
                        Quote: svp67
                        According to my logic, they must have communication means (radio stations) in order to have time to report this and the proper amount of weapons, including small arms

                        Yeah. And also a squadron of bombers with atomic bombs, an aircraft carrier and a mobile brothel with a hundred long-legged beauties.
                    2. Catfish
                      Catfish 3 January 2021 17: 42
                      +2
                      That is, on PP and DP weighing 3 and 7 kg, respectively, there were opportunities, but on TT weighing 0,8 kg there were no.

                      The weight of the PCA with a loaded disk is 5,3, with a sector magazine - 4,15 kg.
                      The weight of the PPS with the equipped sector magazine is 3, 62 kg.
                      Diesel fuel weight - 10 kg.
                      DP weight with equipped disk - 11,3 kg.
                      TT weight with cartridges - 910 g.
                      There, every gram of weight plays a role.
              2. Kot_Kuzya
                Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 09: 00
                +1
                By the way, among the Germans in the department, the assistant machine gunner was armed not with a carbine, but with a pistol, since the Germans perfectly understood that the second number did not need a carbine from the word at all. It was more rational for the second number to hang a couple of extra ribbons of one hundred rounds, than to force him to carry a carbine, which he will not use.
                1. svp67
                  svp67 3 January 2021 15: 17
                  0
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  By the way, among the Germans in the department, the assistant machine gunner was armed not with a carbine, but with a pistol, since the Germans perfectly understood that the second number did not need a carbine from the word at all.

                  Our crews of combat vehicles could not fully provide short-barrels ...
          2. Intruder
            Intruder 4 January 2021 00: 51
            +1
            And then, to cover up your comrade, and with the provision of patrons, there are no questions ...
            so, he already carries a lot of BC, and you also decided to load it with Mosinka to the detriment of the amount carried over your shoulders ... therefore, a PP or a pistol is the most, for the second number ... just for cover at a short distance at the position when "the enemy is at the gate" :)
        2. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 3 January 2021 08: 32
          +2
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Artillerymen also do not shoot at the enemy with carbines, a pistol is enough for them.

          A pistol may be enough, but who will give it to them !? And so as not to carry rifles, for this and "invented" carbines! By the way, "there is an opinion" in some articles on the Internet that the German artillerymen were "completely" armed with pistols! This is not entirely true! Here is a fragment of V. Shibirin's answer, who "grazes" on a German website .... (about German artillerymen ...)
          If we talk about the anti-tank crew of infantry divisions, then already in 1942 the commanders of the crews had a submachine gun (they were not entitled to a pistol and bayonet-knife), a gunner and a second number (loader) - pistols, all others - carbines. In the companies of infantry guns, the commanders are with PP, the numbers of the crews are with carbines. For some reason, in tank divisions, the commanders of the same PT guns (on mechtyag) had carbines. Howitzer men on horseback and mechtyag had both commanders and crews who had carbines
        3. BDRM 667
          BDRM 667 3 January 2021 08: 56
          +2
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Let's take the calculation of the DP machine gun, it is of two people. What the heck of the second rifle crew?

          That was the second number of the crew, not a rifle (carbine) but a PPSh, or as in the movie "Two Soldiers", filmed in 1943 - PPD, since we are talking about the Second World War.

          1. vladcub
            vladcub 3 January 2021 19: 08
            +1
            Actually, a feature film is not an argument.
            What the filmmakers had and used.
            There was a great deal of tension with automatic weapons in 1941.
            1. BDRM 667
              BDRM 667 5 January 2021 07: 18
              +1
              Quote: vladcub
              There was a great deal of tension with automatic weapons in 1941.

              At 1941, life did not stop. There was Stalingrad 42-43, Kursk, Bagration on the 44th, and so on, in ascending order.
              1. vladcub
                vladcub 5 January 2021 11: 19
                +1
                In general, yes, and in particular, not everything is good. As a child, I heard the conversation of old people, they rolled the beetroot "tea" and remembered.
                Spring 1943. 3 rifles for a training company! One at the post, and two in turn fired. When they hit the front line, they actually did not know how to shoot. Of course it was not so everywhere, but it WAS. And with cartridges, too, was strained.
                Do you remember how Brezhnev in "Malaya Zemlya" described when one soldier gave another, on his birthday, the most precious thing: cartridges?
                1. BDRM 667
                  BDRM 667 10 January 2021 15: 37
                  0
                  Quote: vladcub
                  Do you remember how Brezhnev in "Malaya Zemlya" described when one soldier gave another, on his birthday, the most precious thing: cartridges?

                  I read it, I remember. And I read not because I was forced to study, but because it was really interesting.

                  Therefore, I remember well that with ammunition on Malaya Zemlya, cut off from supplies, it was extremely tight.
                  That is - the cartridges were on the mainland, but their delivery to the piece held by the landing party was very expensive. Of many lives.

                  Therefore, every cartridge was so dear.
        4. BDRM 667
          BDRM 667 3 January 2021 10: 43
          +3
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Artillerymen also do not shoot at the enemy with carbines, a pistol is enough for them.


          Probably, especially anti-tank crews, and more specifically, the crews of 45mm guns, which almost always (not from a good life, of course) were rolled out "for direct fire", and where they often had to face not only armored vehicles, but also enemy infantry.

          I think they would not appreciate your proposal to replace carbines and PPs for them. No.
        5. Svidetel 45
          Svidetel 45 5 January 2021 17: 10
          +1
          There is a lot of evidence of how artillerymen during the Second World War had to fight off enemy infantrymen, when they managed to break through close to their positions, even if the distance was only 50 meters, it is very problematic to get from a pistol, from a carbine it is much easier. In addition, clashes could take place on the march, when it was not possible to bring guns to battle, or attack reconnaissance or sabotage groups. Another thing is that for such a contingent of servicemen it would be possible to have a lightweight long-barreled weapon chambered for a weaker cartridge, such as the Americans have an M-1 carbine.
      2. Captain Pushkin
        Captain Pushkin 3 January 2021 15: 50
        +1
        Quote: svp67
        Why deprive people of weapons with a range of more than 50 meters?

        Will the voznik hit with a pistol at a distance of 50 meters? If only by chance ...
      3. aglet
        aglet 4 January 2021 11: 15
        0
        "artillery crews, it would be quite possible for any trainmen, cooks, logisticians"
        if an artilleryman, or a cook, has to take up a personal weapon, then something went wrong. and this is a rifle, or a pistol - no difference - it will not trample against the infantry
    3. bistrov.
      bistrov. 3 January 2021 08: 10
      -1
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      numbers of machine gun and artillery crews,

      Machine gunners, snipers, and so relied on a second weapon: a pistol or revolver, gunners, drivers, signalmen were supposed to equip a carbine mod. 1938, the fact is that the Mosin rifle was supposed to be carried with a bayonet attached, it was forbidden to unlock the bayonet, since it was fired with a bayonet, without a bayonet a bullet would not hit the target. Therefore, for many military specialties, the Mosin rifle was extremely inconvenient. But in reality, it was often not before that, what was in the warehouse was given out. In 1944, the production of rifles was stopped, they began to produce a carbine of the 1944 model with an integral bayonet, which had two positions, travel and combat.
      In the Wehrmacht, it was supposed to arm artillerymen with pistols, but there were not enough pistols, so they could also arm them with anything.
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 09: 05
        -3
        Quote: bistrov.
        In the Wehrmacht, it was supposed to arm artillerymen with pistols, but there were not enough pistols, so they could also arm them with anything.

        Why? Isavev in his wonderful book "10 Myths of the Second World War" cites the cost of German weapons
        Labor costs for "MP-38" were 18 man-hours, and the cost price was only 57 marks. For comparison: the Walther P-38 pistol required 13 man-hours at a prime cost of 31 marks, and the Mauser 98k carbine - 22 man-hours and 70 marks. An even more simplified submachine gun "MP-40" cost only 40 marks
        That is, the Wehrmacht, instead of one carbine, could buy two Walters.
        1. bistrov.
          bistrov. 4 January 2021 12: 16
          0
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          oh there is the Wehrmacht instead of one carbine, could buy two Walters

          Maybe he could, only the Germans did not have enough "carbines", but with the "Walter" "Schütze" (shooter) you will not send to the attack ...
          And, in general, the Germans experienced chronic hunger in all weapons, despite the fact that all of Europe worked for them ...
    4. Revolver
      Revolver 3 January 2021 11: 45
      -1
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      it would be quite possible to give out pistols to any attendants, cooks, logisticians

      What are you? A pistol is a status weapon, and chefs were generally given cold weapons - kitchen knives.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 15: 29
        -1
        Quote: Nagan
        kitchen knives.

        They were given three lines.
    5. hohol95
      hohol95 3 January 2021 13: 41
      +1
      For example, the numbers of machine-gun and artillery crews, all sorts of trainers, cooks, logisticians could be given pistols, not rifles.

      Are you suggesting that a divisional ZiS-3 or a regimental 76,2 gun to fight off enemy infantry with service TT or Nagan revolvers?
      Especially when retreating (fleeing) the infantry cover ...
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 13: 53
        -9
        I suggest that the crew of the ZIS-3 or the regimental 76-mm cannon fight off the enemy with a cannon, not with children's toys!
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 3 January 2021 13: 58
          +3
          I suggest that the crew of the ZIS-3 or the regimental 76-mm cannon fight off the enemy with a cannon, not with children's toys!

          To take the weapon by the bed (bed) and use it to physically influence the enemy in the form of a club?
          1. Astra wild2
            Astra wild2 3 January 2021 15: 06
            +1
            Alexey, you +. Well said. It is well known that at the beginning of the Second World War it was tight with shells. For example, the artillerymen retreat and the shells are gone, and the Germans are pressing. How to fight back, with your own anger?
          2. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 17: 46
            -2
            Quote: hohol95
            To take the weapon by the bed (bed) and use it to physically influence the enemy in the form of a club?

            If, in your opinion, the tools are no longer good for anything other than using them as a club, then stones and sticks as weapons are just right for you.
            1. hohol95
              hohol95 3 January 2021 23: 10
              0
              On November 10, 1943, at 18:00, nine German tanks with infantry attacked the positions of the 520th Infantry Regiment (cn) of the 167th Infantry Division (SD) near the village of Klehovka. According to the reports of the artillerymen of the 37th labr, "the infantry of the 520th rifle regiment left their positions, partially their weapons and 57-mm guns, fled from the battlefield." The calculations of the 1430th Light Artillery Regiment (paws) and personally to its commander, Lieutenant Colonel I.M. Shumilikhin had to simultaneously fight the advancing German tanks and return the infantrymen to the trenches. The attack was still managed to be repelled, the 1430th leg declared five destroyed enemy tanks for this battle.
              The next day it was the turn of the neighboring 232nd SD.
              ... The fierceness of the battle is quite eloquently indicated by the fact that the 2nd battery of the 1432th paws of senior lieutenant Kudra shot all the shells available, after which the calculations covered the remaining guns from attacks by enemy infantry with automatic fire. The battery commander himself, remaining with the gunner, waited until darkness and manually rolled the gun to his own.
              ...As it is not difficult to guess, in their report the artillerymen did not regret "kind" words for the 232nd Rifle Division, in which "the infantry and artillery fled in disorder from the battlefield." At the same time, according to the report, only one commander of a machine-gun company was present in the infantry battle formations.

              Cannons in exchange for tanks
              Alexander Polishchuk
              As it is not difficult to guess, the gun crews had to take on the task of protecting their guns with their own small arms.
              And would they have fought a lot with pistols?
        2. Svidetel 45
          Svidetel 45 5 January 2021 17: 14
          0
          Yeah, when the enemy suddenly finds himself in the rear or on the flank of the gun position, I would like to see how you will implement your "valuable" proposal.
      2. aglet
        aglet 4 January 2021 11: 21
        -1
        "Do you suggest that the divisional ZiS-3 or the regimental 76,2 gun to fight off enemy infantry with service TT or Nagant revolvers?"
        Do you think that they will fight off the infantry with mosinks? yes at least dp, they were not taught this. and, by the time the infantry reaches them, they will already be rolled out with guns and tanks. they do not need a long barrel, only money down the drain. the infantry didn't really need him either
        1. hohol95
          hohol95 4 January 2021 18: 12
          0
          yes at least dp, they were not taught this. and, by the time the infantry reaches them, they will be rolled out with guns and tanks. they do not need a long barrel, only money down the drain. the infantry didn't really need him either

          Yes, in general, to distribute to the crews of mortars and guns - PIKI (the British armed the airfield attendants with lances in 1940 - there were not enough rifles as they abandoned everything in France)!
          Or daggers like BEBUT.
          For group hara-kiri.
  • svp67
    svp67 3 January 2021 07: 28
    +1
    The short-barreled weapons of the Red Army were not as diverse as those of the Wehrmacht, and they looked German, and often not German, but the pistols they had in service were more elegant ...
    And so, the author is right.
  • tasha
    tasha 3 January 2021 07: 41
    +4
    I expected more from an article with that title.
    On the "vast expanses of the Internet" now you can find scriptures for any reason. Will you refute everything, author? Or did this "regular smart guy" do any evil to you?
    Prove later to the special officers ... Yes, and the immediate superior, seeing the "ownerless" TT on the soldier's side, would not stroke the head - except perhaps.
    What is this, the author? Are you spreading here liberal myths about evil special officers and chiefs who smash the heads of Soviet soldiers with rifle butts? A-yayayay. wassat
    1. sibiryouk
      sibiryouk 3 January 2021 08: 23
      +4
      And so it was - he strangled the commander or the political instructor and took the pistol! (joke!!!)
    2. evgen1221
      evgen1221 3 January 2021 08: 44
      -2
      And what's so funny about that, officers were assigned their pistols by number, and if they were taken from another soldier at the death of an officer, the consequences were very quick and very unpleasant.
      1. tasha
        tasha 3 January 2021 09: 03
        +2
        Nothing funny. And the soldiers of the Red Army understood this better than we did. The author, in order to write in intelligible words about the strict accounting of issued domestic weapons, writes about "a butt on the head."
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 3 January 2021 11: 06
        +7
        The Red Army men also had enough domestic "short-barrels". Perhaps someone remembers the story of Leonid Sobolev, "Fedya with Nagan." After all, this is not fiction.
        Uncle of my mother, and my grandfather. He fought in the Marine Corps, defended Sevastopol, he told me that he had: "light" and a Nagant. He scolded the "light": capricious, and the Nagant is reliable. Then he threw it away: there were few cartridges for him. I was a kid and did not know that revolver and pistol cartridges are different.
        Some of the front-line soldiers told me: "Which pistol you trust is good. The main thing is that there are cartridges."
  • tasha
    tasha 3 January 2021 08: 10
    +10
    The reasons why Soviet soldiers were armed with captured pistols, the author noted correctly.
    Indeed, not everyone relied on the pistol, and sometimes they were simply not enough. And as gifts were used, and, of course, as a sign of a brave and brave fighter. A few quotes from memoirs collected by Artyom Drabkin:
    "Of course, the pistols were not put, but everyone had them ..."
    "In the mortar battery, as a gunner, I was entitled to a pistol, but I was not given it."
    "After all, for example, they didn’t give me a personal weapon, although a" revolver "was laid.
    "We had a reputation for dudes, walking around with forelocks, finns, trophy pistols on our belts."
    "And without a captured pistol at the end of the war, it's hard to imagine any infantry commander. It was a craze."
    "I had a Parabellum in a heavy black leather holster - the infantry gave it to me. And Kolya, the shooter, flew with a TT pistol."

    Sometimes you come across the following:
    "I had both ours and captured pistols for the war. My favorite was the Parabellum, an excellent, reliable weapon, and a light Walther."
    "I've always used Walther - it fits well in the palm of your hand."
    “Then I changed the revolver to a German Parabellum. It is better than our pistol. The Parabellum is a very good weapon, although larger, but much better.
    "My Parabellum saved me. This is a wonderful weapon that surpasses our TT in all respects."
    "In the army I had a captured Walther - a wonderful pistol. The Parabellum is perfectly centered, does not pull down like a TT, the center of weight is at the handle, very stable in the hand."
    “I had TT # Ci235, I remember even now. Near Polotsk I run out from behind the house, in front of me is a German with a gun. Close - 15 meters. jerk the bolt - it will re-girdle from the hip. Both of them lost. I fired excellently, but the pistol failed. "
    "I pull the trigger of the TT, but there is no shot. He saw that I had a hitch and rushed at me ... I managed to understand what was the matter: sometimes the TT's moving parts did not completely move away, and if I did not push them with my hand, then there will be no shot. I had time ... When the German had already piled on me, I fired. Immediately after this TT I threw away and took a German pistol. "

    Judging by such moments from the memory of veterans, then theoretically we can conclude that German-made pistols were treated as more reliable and convenient. It is a pity that in his article the author did not find an opportunity to compare the characteristics of weapons and state his opinion ...
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 3 January 2021 08: 44
      +6
      The author has not debunked the myths about the superiority of one or another family of short-barrels. No references to workmanship, no numbers.
      That is, an article appeared in which "on the vast expanses of the Internet ... another author ... you can read such ...".
    2. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 09: 14
      +1
      Quote: tasha
      Immediately after this TT, I threw away and took a German pistol. "

      Doubtful. In the certificate of the command staff of the Red Army, the number of not only firearms, but also edged weapons fits in, and for its loss, for an unjustified reason, one could ring out in a penal battalion.
      1. tasha
        tasha 3 January 2021 09: 24
        +4
        The quote is taken from the memoirs of Bukhenko Vladimir Fedorovich. "Each of us had a PPSh submachine gun, a pistol, a knife, and they took four grenades for missions. Of course, the pistols were not put, but everyone had them. I had ours and captured pistols for the war." Vladimir Fedorovich did not graduate from a military school, did not receive an officer's rank in the war, he was an ordinary intelligence officer. And the pistol, as you can see, was ...
        1. tasha
          tasha 3 January 2021 09: 38
          +2
          A number of TTs were in service with the Wehrmacht, SS and other formations. Bukhenko V.F. could use the trophy Pistole 615 (r) ..
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 3 January 2021 09: 41
        +4
        Kuzya, there is no time to deal with bureaucracy in wartime. I’ll give a couple of reasons: I lost in attack. The gun has broken, and carry the broken piece of iron.
        1. Kot_Kuzya
          Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 09: 57
          -5
          Quote: vladcub
          Kuzya, there is no time to deal with bureaucracy in wartime. I’ll give a couple of reasons: I lost in attack. The gun has broken, and carry the broken piece of iron.

          The special officer will interrogate everyone, and find out if the commander threw out a working pistol. And he costs money! His miner, steelmaker and worker did, and it is absolutely unacceptable when the weapon is thrown away like a blown napkin. I also used this mild expression.
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 3 January 2021 15: 36
            +5
            Kuzya, don't be funny. I am a commander, and during the attack, TT refused me. I have to collect a commission and write an explanation: "on such and such a date, TT refused me. Before throwing it out, I called the Red Army men and they made sure that the pistol was broken. This is confirmed by the signatures."
            Among the special officers there were cattle and normal ones, but they did not think of this. If it was a gun or a tank then disassembly.
            Drabkin cites the story of the battery commander when a shell exploded in the gun barrel. The special officers piled up: they were looking for malicious intent. It turned out that the shell was defective
            1. bubalik
              bubalik 3 January 2021 15: 47
              +1
              Drabkin gives the story of the commander
              ,,, during the Second World War, at the post, on guard, someone scrawled the name of his grandfather (the name is widespread in Russia). So they also dragged in, they say, the person is nice, to whom you give signals. Barely untied.
              And you say a shell. hi
              1. Sergey Sfiedu
                Sergey Sfiedu 3 January 2021 21: 13
                +1
                In the middle of the war, 50mm mortars were discontinued. They wrote that one of the reasons was that the soldiers threw this weapon at the first opportunity.
                1. vladcub
                  vladcub 4 January 2021 09: 45
                  +1
                  I heard from a front-line soldier, the commander of a 82 mm mortar battery, that 50 mm mortars were completely useless: they do not destroy fortifications, they are not very effective against infantry in a trench. They are good only for lying down infantry and then at close range.
                  There was also a "miracle weapon": a sapper shovel-mortar. The shovel handle is the mortar. Rare shit: 30mm, will reach 15m at most. Red Army soldiers, they "lost" en masse
          2. mmaxx
            mmaxx 4 January 2021 08: 07
            +1
            Why should a special officer suffer such nonsense. A man with a weapon, and all right. No one will compare numbers in a war. A man lives one day. There are more important things to do.
    3. Simargl
      Simargl 3 January 2021 13: 29
      +1
      Quote: tasha
      I managed to understand what was the matter: sometimes the moving parts of the TT did not completely retreat, and if you do not push them with your hand, then there will be no shot
      May I ask you? If the weapon is dirty, rest it against something with the barrel, is there a chance that the spring will not have enough force to press the bolt back to its original place? I'm talking about any pistols with a movable barrel (except, perhaps, GSh-18 and, probably, Luger).
      1. tasha
        tasha 3 January 2021 14: 32
        +1
        So you have several situations like. I think it's better with your questions to the weapon forums or to the specialists, of which there are many in the VO.
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 3 January 2021 14: 38
          0
          Quote: tasha
          So you have several situations like.
          I have? Two situations are described: the first - perhaps the pistol is not to blame, the second - most likely a dirty weapon.

          Quote: tasha
          I think it's better with your questions to the weapon forums or to the specialists, of whom there are many in the VO.
          I know how a pistol works. If you press the barrel, then either the trigger is blocked, go the hammer does not reach the drummer. It takes a couple of millimeters, usually.
          1. tasha
            tasha 3 January 2021 14: 49
            +1
            My friend, what do you want from me then?
            If you press the barrel, then either the trigger is blocked, go the hammer does not reach the drummer. It takes a couple of millimeters, usually.
            So this is to the question, it will shoot, it will not shoot, but it will not reload \ will take a combat platoon ...
            1. Simargl
              Simargl 3 January 2021 16: 00
              +1
              Quote: tasha
              My friend, what do you want from me then?
              Blame the design and reliability of a particular pistol model due to the design features of pistols with a movable barrel in general, due to poor maintenance and knowledge of the material and the principle of operation of the weapon, while praising other models that have the same features ... so-so "expert "/Objective assessment.
              Those. the "arguments" described in the memoirs are often nonsense.
              1. tasha
                tasha 3 January 2021 16: 09
                +1
                Dear friend, I don't write myself as an expert and that not everything in my memoirs is true - I understand perfectly well. In the same collections of Artyom Drabkin, I did not come across memories that German pistols are worse than ours, but which is better - take a look for yourself. hi
                Below is a good comment from the reader Pischak. Note.
    4. Alexfly
      Alexfly 3 January 2021 14: 00
      0
      "I pull the trigger of the TT, but there is no shot. He saw that I had a hitch and rushed at me ... I managed to understand what was the matter: sometimes the TT's moving parts did not completely move away, and if I did not push them with my hand, then there will be no shot. I had time ... When the German had already piled on me, I fired. Immediately after this TT I threw away and took a German pistol. "
      I do not understand, how is it? Most likely there was a pistol on the safety platoon ...
    5. beeper
      beeper 3 January 2021 15: 59
      +7
      tasha

      It is a pity that in his article the author did not find an opportunity to compare the characteristics of weapons and express his opinion..

      hi I, comrade Taskha, am also sorry (and very disappointed in my expectations from the declared title of this opus wassat !) that the author of the Article was so careless about writing it and, I think that not only I am sorry that it is impossible to put downsides to the authors of such Articles- after all, this is, in fact, a checkpoint "on duty propaganda (and even with," fashionable "for the liberals, a sort of" spit at the special officers ")" and the topic declared by the author has not been disclosed, alas! request
      The level demonstrated by the author is "completely out of topic", but the "enticement" with the title of the Article was good, I also "took it" for it, I believed the editorial board of VO, which published this superficial "creation"! yes
      IMHO

      P.S. The undershoot of the bolt (accompanied by the lack of delivery of the cartridge) was an organic shortcoming of TT pistols (especially military production), alas!
      The reason for this is in the "hooked" (after some shooting) return spring of inadequate quality (the original spring material and heat treatment of the finished spring) and the technically illiterate design of the "castrated" -short guide of this spring!
      The TT return spring weakened by the "sediment" (and even with, inevitable in field conditions, the dusting of the mechanism, some experienced officers also wrapped their cleaned TT in a clean cloth before putting it into the holster!) Could not cope with sending the cartridge and locking the bolt , especially since pistols of "military production" often had an unfinished (by unskilled fitters-assemblers) path for feeding the cartridge into the chamber (practically guaranteed ledge of the feed ramp in case of "selective assembly" error, which was encountered, by the way, on "prefabricated dug" TT and on the "killer" post-Soviet "Chinese")!
      The same is with the cause of the misfires - overstressed and suboptimal in size, the forced design of the mainspring, "pushed" by FV Tokarev into the limited hole of the trigger! request

      But, instead of figuring out the reasons and objectively comparing the designs of the "opposed" pistols (after all, the same P.08 and P38, especially the military "simplified manufacturing", and the P38 with an aluminum alloy frame, for all their advantages, after all also had its drawbacks !!!), the author "let everything down on emotions (and also, on dubious" conclusions "and convex" liber-clichés ")" ?! request
      Disappointed, how could it be so ...
      Eh, the author, after all, you didn’t succeed in any "origins and analysis", you don’t respect your readers at all, for the "all grasping people" keep ??! No. negative
      I repeat once again, this is IMHO, my personal value judgment, I do not impose on anyone! winked
  • evgen1221
    evgen1221 3 January 2021 08: 41
    -7
    Quite rightly written. However, I don’t even know whether there was such a myth and if it was only among youngsters of over95 years of release. A normal person already understood what was what and why. Article plus, respect to the author!
  • kalibr
    kalibr 3 January 2021 08: 55
    +12
    And where about the comparison of performance characteristics, reliability, and other indicators ... Some emotions. But this is not serious: to dispel one myth based on emotions to another, of your own spill!
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 3 January 2021 09: 27
      +10
      Vyacheslav, hello and my sad regrets about the next article about nothing.
      The theme is the richest, the author has a beggarly amount of information. It would be possible to write a lot, the benefit and experience there is information, but just laziness and a complete lack of desire. There is only one desire - to nail a prolonged New Year's hangover on figs, and the articles of the aforementioned author do not contribute to this.
      Everything is like with a "Chinese" patron.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 3 January 2021 12: 21
        +8
        Quote: Sea Cat
        A lot could be written, the benefit and experience there is information,

        I'll insert my eight cents in one coin. smile
        Never a weapon specialist, but it so happened that I had to shoot both from the TT and from the pistol that is shown in the picture first from the left in the return row. smile In addition, I have repeatedly dealt with the consequences of using our pistol and once a German one.
        Impressions.
        Ours is lighter, more convenient for concealed carrying (flat).
        , Convenient, as it seemed to me, a fuse. Of the advantages, perhaps everything. The center of gravity is unsuccessful - the barrel cannot be kept on the aiming line, the handle is uncomfortable - short, the little finger walks, the barrel throws up when fired, the descent is very hard.
        The German is much more grasping, the center of gravity is well located, the barrel does not walk, it is convenient to aim, the trigger is soft and short, there is almost no recoil, the sleeve flies up and back, the arrow cannot touch the arrow. The fuse is unreliable, it could jump off and unlock the weapon at any time, and it's not very conveniently located.
        In general, the results of shooting from our pistol are noticeably worse than from the German one.
        In terms of the impact on the target, the German is more destructive. A standing person is stitched by the TT bullet so that if a bullet hits the chest, he can fall prone. The German has a good stopping effect, i.e. the chances of incapacitating the enemy with the first hit are significantly higher.
        All that has been said is my personal impressions based on my own experience.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 3 January 2021 12: 40
          +5
          Hello Mikhail and Happy New Year. smile
          ... and from the pistol that is shown in the picture first from the left in the return row.

          This is the legendary German "eight", in everyday life "Parabellum", in the German army R.08. The pistol is good, one, in my opinion, minus - there is no self-cocking. And in shooting, he is very pleasant. I didn't notice any problems with the fuse, obviously you got a pretty "loose" one.
          I don't like TT, clumsy, uncomfortable and unreliable. By the way, the TT does not have a fuse at all, it has a "safety half-cocking" of the trigger, shoots when it falls to the ground, my brother got a bullet in the leg. If there was a fuse on the TT that fell into your hands, then it is most likely Chinese.
          As for the stopping action, everything is correct.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 3 January 2021 13: 30
            +2
            Happy uncle Kostya. hi
            The TT had a trigger fuse. It seemed to me quite convenient. I won't say anything about the reliability of both the fuse and the machine itself.
            The German was really broken - the echo of the war, he even had one cheek on the handle was replaced with a wooden one. In the forensic study, it was named "Luger 08", I don't know how correct this is. In general, my opinion is that a German is much better as a pistol for the army. For the police, neither one nor the other is perfect. I would generally define TT as a "killer's weapon". In the 90s, it was used that way.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 3 January 2021 13: 39
              +6
              In the forensic study, it was named "Luger 08", I don't know how correct this is.

              Not correct. R.08 is the designation for the army, "Parabellum" is commercial, and the Americans began to call him Luger, after Georg Luger came to the States to present his brainchild. In normal, army catalogs, he generally passed as Borchardt-Luger by the names of the inventors who had a hand in his creation.
          2. hohol95
            hohol95 3 January 2021 13: 56
            +1
            What is cheaper in production - TT or P08?
            It is clear that TT was adopted at a difficult time and obviously not the most modern equipment was used for its production.
            But at the same time, the USSR did not purposefully purchase short-barreled weapons.
            I heard that many long-range bomber pilots did not have domestic pistols. It was either the Colt M1911 or the Browning HP.
            But they came under the Lend-Lease and were not a necessity for orders.
            And in the Russian Imperial Army there was only a Nagant revolver.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 3 January 2021 14: 11
              +3
              Hi Aleksey. hi
              And in the Russian Imperial Army there was only a Nagant revolver.

              Well, this is not to the honor of this army, there were not many things in it at all.
              In the production of TT, it is really cheaper than the G38, the Germans themselves replaced it with the R.XNUMX, and the high cost of production and metal consumption were among the reasons why they did it.
              But they came under the Lend-Lease and were not a necessity for orders.

              It would be funny if it was different. smile
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 3 January 2021 14: 18
                +2
                It would be funny if it was different. smile

                But if they had not created their own TT, then they could order pistols from the allies ...
                The Germans did not have enough of their own pistols and they rowed everything they could. From captured Polish VIS.35 to purchased Spanish (from October 18, 1941 to July 21, 1944, the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe received 173 828 Spanish pistols of seven different models). drinks
            2. kalibr
              kalibr 3 January 2021 18: 47
              0
              Quote: hohol95
              But at the same time, the USSR did not purposefully purchase short-barreled weapons.

              I bought it! In Germany in the 20th 20 thousand Mauser "Bolo" - "Bolshevik". With a shortened barrel and grip.
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 3 January 2021 23: 15
                +1
                In the 20s, the USSR did not have its own aircraft.
                Polikarpovsky P-1 (1924) was a Russified DH9A of the 1916 model.
                And according to the Lend-Lease, only 12997 pistols were received from the United States.
                This is still less than German purchases in Spain.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 3 January 2021 09: 24
    +5
    "long-range cable TT and Nagant" about TT agree, but Nagan ..... Kharluzhny, do not rush
  • vladcub
    vladcub 3 January 2021 09: 50
    +5
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    he is no good for more in peacetime

    You can sell, on US sites they sell for $ 5000, quite a good price.

    A Red Army soldier collects pistols to sell on an American website.
    Specialists would instantly "register" it.
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 3 January 2021 10: 03
    +8
    By the way, trophy German pistols were considered a particularly valuable "souvenir" among one very specific category of pilots. Specifically - from the pilots who delivered cargo for the front line to our glorious partisans.

    My father was a navigator, but the Parabellum had. He took this trophy in Poland while cleaning a farm near the airfield - he did not wait for the NKVD regiment commander, he led the cleanup on his own. The German fired first, but missed, and the father from the PPSh explained to him that soon "Hitler Kaput". The Parabellum was very user-friendly but also very difficult to maintain.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 3 January 2021 10: 10
      +8
      ... but also very difficult to maintain.

      It was difficult and metal-consuming in production, another drawback was the lack of self-cocking, therefore a competition was announced for a new pistol, and the P.38 won it.
      By the way, we had a competition for a new pistol at the same time, and Voevodin won it.
      In this regard, both we and the Germans followed the same road.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 3 January 2021 18: 49
        +3
        5 kg blank - 0,9 kg frame - all the rest into shavings!
    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 14: 40
      +2
      Quote: Aviator_
      My father was a navigator, but the Parabellum had.

      Lucky people! My grandfather had one TT for the whole crew.
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 3 January 2021 14: 57
        +2
        Lucky people! My grandfather had one TT for the whole crew.

        This is strange. All crew members must have a service weapon. And most of all, my father was lucky that the German missed.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 15: 09
          +4
          Quote: Aviator_
          All crew members must have a service weapon.

          Here he was unlucky. 42nd year. The lieutenant has one TT for the entire BT crew. My grandfather was a foreman-mechanic. We jumped out somehow with the tower and hello, prisoner ...
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 3 January 2021 15: 30
            +5
            Here he was unlucky. 42nd year. The lieutenant has one TT for the entire BT crew.

            Indeed, no luck. Mine lay in the neutral zone for three days after they were shot down. Well, our reconnaissance group accidentally went out to them, then came back and carried them out. December 1944 Makow (Poland).
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 15: 36
              +1
              Quote: Aviator_
              Mine lay in the neutral zone for three days after they were shot down.

              This is your lucky one. And an SS man took my grandfather to execution. Well, my grandfather sent him three letters, he was surprised and did not start shooting. Thumped with him.
              1. Kot_Kuzya
                Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 16: 01
                -3
                Quote: Mordvin 3
                This is your lucky one. And an SS man took my grandfather to execution. Well, my grandfather sent him three letters, he was surprised and did not start shooting. Thumped with him.

                What else can you tell? How did they baptize each other and become godfathers?
                1. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 16: 06
                  0
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  What else can you tell?

                  I'll tell you. Grandfather worked hard at the airport, climbed into the burning plane and pulled out a bag of bread. The Romanians began to beg .. The German sentry drove them away: "Here is Russ master."
                  1. Kot_Kuzya
                    Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 16: 09
                    -7
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    I'll tell you. Grandfather worked hard at the airport, climbed into the burning plane and pulled out a bag of bread. The Romanians began to beg .. The German sentry drove them away: "Here is Russ master."

                    Yeah. Then he kissed him and threw up his hand and squealed "Glory to Ukraine!"
                    1. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 16: 16
                      +3
                      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                      Yeah. Then he kissed him and threw up his hand and squealed "Glory to Ukraine!"

                      You asshole, don't insult my grandfather. The Germans-guards were from the lightly wounded. And they respected our fighters.
                      1. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 17: 32
                        -5
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        You asshole, don't insult my grandfather. The Germans-guards were from the lightly wounded. And they respected our fighters.

                        Your grandfather was Hitler's lackey, and absolutely does not deserve respect. As well as you, the zigging descendants of Bender.
                      2. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 17: 38
                        +1
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        Your grandfather was Hitler's lackey

                        My grandfather was a driving instructor and taught Koshkin himself.
                      3. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 17: 42
                        -5
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        My grandfather was a driving instructor and taught Koshkin himself.

                        Is that why you jump and zigue for Bendera?
                      4. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 17: 46
                        0
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        Is that why you jump and zigue for Bendera?

                        I am Russian! My grandfather was a Mordvin! And I'm in the third generation ..
                      5. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 17: 50
                        -7
                        You are as Russian as I am an embroiderer. Did you ride for Zelya in May 2019?
                      6. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 17: 54
                        +2
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        Did you ride for Zelya in May 2019?

                        Cat! You're a stupid person, aren't you?
                      7. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 3 January 2021 18: 03
                        -7
                        Judging by the lies about the good SS men, you are stupid. For your information, the SS were recruited voluntarily, they were not recruited into it, unlike the Wehrmacht, and therefore fanatics and supporters of Nazism served in the SS. And therefore, only those stupid like you and your herd can believe in your fairy tale about the good SS man.
                      8. Mordvin 3
                        Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 11: 48
                        0
                        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                        For your information, the SS were recruited voluntarily, they were not recruited into it, unlike the Wehrmacht, and therefore fanatics and supporters of Nazism served in the SS.

                        Shit! Yes, you also don’t know the history! It was at the beginning of the war that they were volunteers, and then they were mobilized.
              2. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 11: 43
                0
                Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                Is that why you jump and zigue for Bendera?

                Where am I jumping? Give an example.
            2. aglet
              aglet 4 January 2021 11: 41
              0
              "My grandfather was a driving instructor and taught Koshkin himself."
              on the t-34?
            3. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 11: 50
              0
              Quote: aglet
              on the t-34?

              And hell knows. You won't even ask. He died 20 years ago.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 3 January 2021 10: 05
    +18
    Another, hastily concocted, sketch from Kharaluzhny, moreover, the author parasitizes on a topic in which he does not understand anything at all.
    The administration of the site, using the services of this "writer", demonstrates disrespect for the readership and its own reputation.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 3 January 2021 11: 14
      +15
      Vic, good morning. hi
      In the sense of disrespect, they themselves wrote that the authors are quietly leaving, so they are publishing haraluzhnye, and from ours somehow no one is in a hurry to offer something of their own. Anyway, after Sergei Linnik's articles on captured weapons, Comrade. The haraluzhny ray does not climb "... into the Kalashny row." But, on bezrybe ... and so on, if there is no one to print, then they print what they have. "For lack of a stamp, we write in simple." smile
      I'll go to treat health. drinks
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 3 January 2021 11: 27
        +6
        This post is to be placed in libraries. Replacing good books and good drinks.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 3 January 2021 11: 44
          +6
          Hello, Sergey. hi
          And what, in today's libraries they pour now? drinks
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 3 January 2021 11: 52
            +6
            Hi Constantine!

            Haven't come for a long time. But I believe that good people are welcome everywhere.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 3 January 2021 12: 04
              +7
              "Ships were entering our harbor,
              Big ships from the ocean
              The sailors were having fun in the tavern
              And they drank to the captain's health. "(C)
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 3 January 2021 12: 25
                +5
                “They go where they can easily
                Find cheerful women and wine "(c).
      2. Undecim
        Undecim 3 January 2021 12: 08
        +8
        I'll go to heal health
        A hangover is a direct path to hard drinking and alcoholism.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 3 January 2021 12: 19
          +6
          Not so, just many have a problem in "stopping on time and having a good meal." I have no problems, I'm only tired of all the holidays, I'm getting old, and there are no children around.
        2. aglet
          aglet 4 January 2021 11: 45
          0
          "A hangover is a direct path to hard drinking and alcoholism."
          this is the wrong drunk.
          but in general, "a hangover is a delicate matter"
      3. Undecim
        Undecim 3 January 2021 12: 12
        +10
        If the authors leave, but the haraluzhny ones come, this is not a financial question.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 3 January 2021 12: 17
          +7
          Sometimes the question is only about money, but I'm not sure if this is the case here.
          1. Hunter 2
            Hunter 2 3 January 2021 12: 35
            +7
            Hello Honest Company hi ! All with the Coming! The article is just Zero! I thought that I would mix everything in a heap - People of Horses and volleys of a Thousand Cannons ... maybe only Lermontov, but he was wrong! belay drinks Haraluzhny - also Can! laughing
    2. Hunter 2
      Hunter 2 3 January 2021 12: 54
      +6
      Quote: Undecim
      Another, hastily concocted, throw from Kharaluzhny.

      Quite right! And to understand the topic, including here (The best pistol of WWII - in my opinion) Browning High Power - which after the occupation of Belgium was produced for Germany ... the author simply “did not know - I forgot”.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 14: 43
        +2
        Quote: Hunter 2
        Browning High Power - which after the occupation of Belgium was produced for Germany ... the author simply "did not know - I forgot."

        In Liege.
        1. Hunter 2
          Hunter 2 3 January 2021 17: 38
          +4
          Quote: mordvin xnumx

          In Liege.

          By the way, in this regard, the High Power pistol is unique ... was in service with all the warring parties! Even the USSR in 1939 bought a batch of three thousand pieces in my opinion. hi
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 17: 42
            +2
            Quote: Hunter 2
            Even the USSR in 1939 bought a batch of three thousand pieces in my opinion.

            The NKVD purchased. And the Germans broke into Belgium, so the SS troops were armed.
            1. Hunter 2
              Hunter 2 3 January 2021 17: 47
              +1
              Quote: mordvin xnumx

              The NKVD purchased. And the Germans broke into Belgium, so the SS troops were armed.

              Which once again emphasizes that the pistol was Good!
              Why didn't the author write a line about him?
          2. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 4 January 2021 03: 37
            0
            High Power had the most capacious magazine among pistols of that time - as many as 13 rounds. While the TT, Walter and Parabellum had 8 rounds, the M1911 had only 7 rounds. Therefore, High Power was greatly appreciated and he was a welcome trophy.
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 4 January 2021 09: 49
        +3
        Hi Alexey! hi
        Somehow yesterday "hands did not reach" to communicate. I agree with you, "Hi-Power" is one of the best pistols of its time, but it also has drawbacks, the main one being the lack of self-cocking. Unfortunately, I didn’t have a chance to shoot it, but some complained about the excessive thickness of the handle (I didn’t think so, although my hand is relatively small, but ... I need to shoot.), I don’t know, I can’t really judge the weapon, which just held it in my hands.

        By the way, the Belgians coped with the lack of self-cocking on the FN Browning HP-DA and the following other models based on Hi-Power in the eighties.
        1. Hunter 2
          Hunter 2 4 January 2021 14: 32
          +3
          Greetings Konstantin! I already wrote that I had a chance to shoot from it, a good machine. Excellent Ergonomics (especially for that time), rather simple design (convenient and easy to clean and disassemble).
          Absent self-platooning is certainly a drawback, in my opinion not critical. Of all the weapons in the Second World War - Browning is definitely My Favorite hi
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 4 January 2021 14: 36
            +1
            Browning is definitely My Favorite

            Walther P.38 - love from childhood to the end. smile
            1. Hunter 2
              Hunter 2 4 January 2021 14: 45
              +2
              Walter PPK is the perfect last-chance pistol. Fits perfectly in any pocket, small, neat - with sufficient stopping power. Thanks to the Motherland soldier for the present.
    3. Sergey Sfiedu
      Sergey Sfiedu 3 January 2021 21: 22
      +4
      "The administration of the site .... shows disrespect for the readership and its own reputation." - Not for the first time, and most likely not for the last time.
  • parusnik
    parusnik 3 January 2021 11: 01
    +3
    Excuse the author, but the article is another "dummy". It was written under the impression of Soviet war films, by the way good, not like now.
  • bar
    bar 3 January 2021 12: 05
    0
    They played the role of nothing more than an additional, spare weapon, or even a front-line "currency". We have defeated the enemy with our Soviet weapons - and there is nothing to write about!

    Alexander, I think you dumped everything in one heap. Yes, we defeated the enemy with our Soviet weapons, there is no doubt about that. But the article by the kagbe was about "the superiority of Wehrmacht pistols over the weapons of the Red Army"? And what is there to argue about? We must be honest, the same P38 winged our TT like a bull sheep. And in power, and in accuracy, and in stopping action (still 9mm versus 7,36mm), and in workmanship and resource. And to drag an ancient revolver here is generally beyond common sense.
    1. Hunter 2
      Hunter 2 3 January 2021 12: 20
      0
      Quote: bar

      And what is there to argue about? We must be honest, the same P38 winged our TT like a bull sheep. And in power, and in accuracy, and in stopping action (still 9mm versus 7,36mm), and in workmanship and resource. And to drag an ancient revolver here is generally beyond common sense.

      Fuck ... another exPerd was found. More about power laughing
      Have you ever seen these pistols, except in Kino? Did you shoot them? Can you tell us about the accuracy of the Pistol and Revolver? laughing The only thing you are right about is the stopping effect of 9 mm and 7.62 mm rounds, but even here it is not so simple. There is such a concept - hydrodynamic shock, respectively, the higher the speed - the more it is. Toto pistol Very good, difficult to disassemble and clean, the quality of the pre-war and the beginning of the military samples - excellent. Then a few fell, in fact, like the Germans.
  • AKKUL
    AKKUL 3 January 2021 12: 14
    +1
    Grandfather was the commander of a mortar crew. He said that when he received the TT and the cartridges for the revolver ran out, he simply threw out the revolver. I (I was 13 years old) then scolded him for it. And only much later, I learned that the revolver cartridges were no longer produced in 1942.
    1. Fat
      Fat 3 January 2021 13: 40
      +3
      This is not true. Nagant cartridges in the USSR were produced until 1989 (weakened for VOKHR)
      Live cartridge with a brass sleeve and a bullet type "P". The most common cartridge for the revolver Nagant. Produced in the Russian Empire and the USSR until 1950..
      The fact is that the Tula plant producing these cartridges was evacuated to Yuryuzan when the Germans approached the city. http://maleglance.blogspot.com/2015/01/762x38-r-nagant-1895.html
      My father was also the commander of the crew, and later of the BM 82 platoon, in Stalingrad. He never drew attention to the short barrel. However, a couple of old revolver cartridges were lying around in his desk.
    2. faiver
      faiver 3 January 2021 14: 31
      +5
      learned that revolver cartridges were no longer produced in 1942.
      - you are mistaken, cartridges for revolvers were produced in the USSR until 89, and there are still plenty of them in mobile warehouses, after WW2 revolvers were in the service of the police, VOKhR, geologists and other services ...
      1. tolancop
        tolancop 3 January 2021 14: 55
        0
        And gunpowder does not decompose over time in cartridges? Not at all a specialist in weapons and ammunition, but information came across that the Naganov cartridge (and so not too strong), for 50 years of storage, weakened by more than half.
        1. faiver
          faiver 3 January 2021 15: 11
          +2
          the question is in storage, there will be nothing for cartridges in sealed zinc, other options are 50/50 ...
    3. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 14: 49
      +1
      Quote: AKKUL
      Nagant cartridges were no longer produced in 1942.

      In the year two thousand and eleven, they were reset to zero.
    4. aglet
      aglet 4 January 2021 11: 50
      0
      "He said that when he received the TT and the cartridges for the revolver ran out, he simply threw out the revolver."
      he could not get a TT without handing over the revolver. forgot to see, over the years
  • Nazaroff
    Nazaroff 3 January 2021 12: 44
    +2
    "No one thought to replace them with powerful, reliable, long-range service TT and Nagans ..." How long has it become, the Nagan revolver, has become POWERFUL ?? Range, not the most prevalent quality of a pistol, so - by the way. Because, this is a melee weapon.
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 January 2021 12: 59
    +8
    To be honest, all this is somehow strange. Parabellum is objectively better than TT or Nagant, what is there to argue? Another issue is that the high quality of parabellum did not make the TT and revolver less deadly than they were. It was possible to fight with both of them, but parabellum is more convenient, that's all
    1. Ruslan67
      Ruslan67 3 January 2021 14: 13
      +1
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      parabellum - more convenient, that's all

      I had a chance to shoot winked Ergonomics is excellent But ... I presented how to disassemble and clean it in a trench and even in the fall in the dark recourse
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 January 2021 14: 14
        +5
        Quote: Ruslan67
        presented how to disassemble and clean it in a trench and even in the fall in the dark

        And what prevents to clean in the light? :))))
        1. Ruslan67
          Ruslan67 3 January 2021 14: 18
          -1
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          clean by light? :)

          Well, how would different cases happen in war what It is very sensitive to contamination The same RRK is much simpler But weak
          1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
            Andrei from Chelyabinsk 3 January 2021 14: 29
            +2
            Quote: Ruslan67
            Well, how would different cases happen in war

            I do not argue. Wouldn't it be easier to clean the TT? I vaguely remember that he either has a whimsical spring, or something else ... Don't hit me painfully, I'm in pistols, that the beast is in oranges, so, I remember something that knowledgeable people said, and I can confuse it for the remoteness of years ...
            1. Ruslan67
              Ruslan67 3 January 2021 14: 34
              +3
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Don't hurt me

              I will not laughing
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Wouldn't it be easier to clean the TT?

              Hemorrhoids yes and workmanship .... In short, when and by whom it was done.
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              I am in pistols, that swine in oranges,

              Well, I had a chance to dig a few samples at work and came to the conclusion - Makar is optimal
            2. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 14: 51
              +2
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              I vaguely remember that he has either a capricious spring, or something else ...

              It was Chinese TT laughing
      2. mmaxx
        mmaxx 4 January 2021 08: 18
        0
        What did the Germans say there? Parabellum is like an old lady. Capricious and loves attention "
  • KSVK
    KSVK 3 January 2021 13: 54
    +5
    Quote: Hunter 2

    Fuck ... another exPerd was found. More about power laughing

    My dear fellow, there is no need to be like the author of a pseudo-patriotic article. Muzzle energy "Nagant" is about 300J. TT, P08, P38 have about 500J.
    Do you think the difference is more than 1,5 times sufficient to talk about the low power of the "Nagan"? For me it is quite. :)
    Quote: Hunter 2

    There is such a concept - hydrodynamic shock, respectively, the higher the speed - the more it is.

    There is such a concept. Just how does it apply to pistols? To TT in particular? And yes, the faster the bigger it is. There is a really small nuance. ;) There is a minimum speed, from which this very concept takes place. And compare with the initial speed of the TT bullet. Read literature. Everything is there.
  • gorenina91
    gorenina91 3 January 2021 14: 14
    +3
    - Personally, I had a chance to shoot from a revolver (Nagant); TT and PM (but PM is not presented here) ...
    - And ... if you shoot with one cartridge (make one shot); then it's more accurate to shoot from a revolver ...
    - But that's only if you make exactly one shot ...
    - You just cock the trigger at the revolver; the drum turns and you make a shot, i.e. you pull the trigger and a shot is fired ... - And a very accurate shot ... - right on target ...
    - But now, if you continue to shoot from the revolver, then you have to pull the trigger and ...; for the next shot, it is necessary that, while the trigger is pressed ... -the chicken returns back to the firing position, the drum turns and the trigger again hits the primer of the new cartridge ... -And this is all a very "long procedure" ... and shots are no longer so accurate ... - But the "first" shot from the revolver (when the hammer is already cocked) ... is a very accurate shot ... - And besides, the revolver has "short" cartridges and stronger "long" cartridges ... -for the same revolver ... -What the presented pistols do not have ...
    -And it's great to shoot from TT too ... - he also hits very well ...
    - I do not know ; here are many who cannot shoot from the PM ... -all somewhere by ... - But, personally, I also managed to shoot very well from the PM ... -This is also a very good pistol. , he has a very smooth descent ... -just always take a little lower ... -But it's just IMHO ...
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 15: 22
      +2
      I fired a '43 rocket launcher. Loaded with a hunting cartridge. The toilet has broken through ... wink
    2. Saxahorse
      Saxahorse 3 January 2021 19: 57
      +1
      Quote: gorenina91
      And besides, the revolver has both "short" cartridges and stronger "long" cartridges ..

      The Nagant has "long" and "short" cartridges! ?? I guess I misunderstood .. But on the whole I agree, the shot from the cocked trigger and the auto-platoon are very different.

      TT is very hard, throws up strongly, the second time and quickly and accurately does not shoot. PM is better in this sense. And the most pleasant APS. Although the hardest.

      But he did not shoot from the Germans. Maybe in time it will turn out to try.
      1. gorenina91
        gorenina91 3 January 2021 20: 36
        0
        But he did not shoot from the Germans. Maybe in time it will turn out to try.

        - Personally, I also did not shoot from the "Germans" ... - Maybe someday it will be possible ...
        The Nagant has "long" and "short" cartridges! ?? I guess I misunderstood ..

        - The revolver has cylindrical cartridges ... - And of different lengths ... - There are "short"; but there are "long" ... -almost the entire length of the revolving drum-chamber () their caliber is the same) ... -But usually "long" cartridges are used ... -Of course, the calibers are different ... -depending on systems of the revolver itself ...
  • certero
    certero 3 January 2021 14: 16
    +1
    In fact, the enemy always seems thicker during a war.
    as ours valued parabelum with vplter, and the Germans valued TT and even a revolver.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 3 January 2021 17: 55
      +2
      I'm not at all sure about Nagana and TT, but PPSh with a disk and SVT - yes, they used it with pleasure.
      1. certero
        certero 4 January 2021 04: 25
        +1
        You can rest assured that the TT was a cool gift among the Germans.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 4 January 2021 09: 51
          0
          We have to doubt, because Your statement has neither evidence nor reference to this evidence. hi
  • faiver
    faiver 3 January 2021 14: 37
    +5
    Pgastit, but the author needs to write news notes, and not similar articles, he did not dispel the myth, there is a minimum of information ...
  • Avior
    Avior 3 January 2021 14: 50
    +1
    In memoirs and memoirs, one can find the remark that the revolver was valued more than the TT because of the problems of the TT with reliability.
    It is quite possible that they had German for this reason, no one threw out the staff, of course, a state thing.
    And in general, many, of course, needed not a pistol, carbine or rifle, but PP - for those who could face the enemy, but this was not the main task.
    Rear services, drivers, gunners, mortars and others
    The second number of the machine gun crew also begs for PP.
  • tolancop
    tolancop 3 January 2021 14: 50
    +1
    The author, IMHO, bypassed another aspect of the desirability of the trophy. Regular weapons are recorded for the serviceman and its loss is a lot of trouble. I admit that it was easier with this at the forefront, but nonetheless. And the trophy is not recorded anywhere, incl. lost and .... sorry, but nothing more. And, I suppose, nevertheless, the revolver did not stand next to the P-08 or P-38 in terms of combat qualities: it was more reliable, yes, but in terms of stopping power and reloading speed, which is important in a short-term battle, it clearly did not pull against a trophy pistol.
    1. Avior
      Avior 3 January 2021 18: 13
      +2
      You still need to carry a regular one with you, just as it could be lost
  • ccsr
    ccsr 3 January 2021 15: 28
    +3
    Imagine for a second that a hefty, one hundred kilograms, Fritz kid fell on you, his weight tightly clamped your "three-ruler" and trying on how to stick a sharp knife or bayonet into your throat. Why, he will strangle him with his hands, a fat fascist! In such a situation, one salvation is a pistol stored in your pocket or in your bosom.

    As one respected veteran who has gone through almost the entire war since the fall of 1941 told me, not a single soldier will carry anything superfluous, even more so a trophy pistol, because there is little use from it, and hand-to-hand combat is not every day. Trophies most often appeared where they could not be carried, but at least stored and transported on horseback. Of the trophies, the German bayonet knife was most of all appreciated, because it was easier for them to open the stew than with our bayonet, and in general it is more convenient on the farm. Another valuable trophy was the German knapsack, because it did not get wet, and it was more convenient to store tobacco, sugar and paper there. When he became the commander of the mortar crew, and then the commander of the gun, then German compasses, binoculars, watches, pencils, folding knives and other equipment were valued, which, as a rule, did not linger, because the senior commanders also needed this, and they took it from the soldier things like that. But they had something in the battery to transport their property, so it was easier to hide the trophies there. All this could be lost, broken, or even simply thrown during the retreat, which is why no one bothered with trophies, although of course everyone tried to grab something valuable. But they could also punish, because trophy teams worked, and they are supposed to collect everything of value. Therefore, captured pistols could most often end up with those who were closer to the headquarters, served in support units, and not on the front line - life there was too short, there was no time for captured pistols.
    That's what I heard from a person who did not exaggerate or invent - he told everything as it is, and I believe him.
  • ssergey1978
    ssergey1978 3 January 2021 15: 45
    +3
    Who wrote this nonsense? The author has doubts that parabellum comes from TT? Have you ever held a gun in your hands? Especially TT?
  • Sancho_SP
    Sancho_SP 3 January 2021 17: 48
    -1
    It is quite logical.
  • Luty
    Luty 3 January 2021 18: 35
    0
    Not a very impressive article. In the author's view, the trophy pistol served as a kind of currency (equivalent). And what about dispel the myth. Something very sickly. Revolver Nagant for 1941 an obsolete weapon. The TT pistol must honestly admit a forced compromise. When the Colt-Browning variant was created for the existing cartridge, and where is the superiority. The BF commander has a Browning pistol. And the PM adopted after the war learned a lot from Walter. So your article, dear author, is not an analysis, but an agitation to raise morale.
  • Constanty
    Constanty 3 January 2021 20: 05
    +5
    I looked - I see an article about small arms - an excellent one, probably Vyacheslav Shpakovsky. However, after reading the beginning, I immediately notice a completely insignificant introduction, so far from the articles of the mentioned author. And in fact it is not Him.

    I am not going to argue why and at what cost the USSR won the war with Germany. Of course, this did not decide who owned the pistols.
    First, a pistol is not a weapon for winning wars.
    Secondly, Soviet TT pistols or Nagant revolvers were good durable weapons that met the requirements of the time.
    thirdly, the Germans had a whole "zoo" in this matter - they did not have enough production capacity to equip everyone with one standard model,
    and used what they could, including the production of captured Polish VIS - P.35s in considerable quantities.

    Fourth, there are many famous photographs depicting the celebration of victory by the soldiers of the Red Army. Like this


    Where we see both Mauser C96 and Walther P38 ...

    It's just that every weapon, as long as it worked, was good and was used.
  • dgonni
    dgonni 4 January 2021 01: 07
    0
    In the novel Vanka Rotny, everything is straightforwardly written for short-barrels! Ordinary infantryman? He doesn't need him for nothing. So if it fell into the hands during the offensive, then it changed to something more useful. Like alcohol or stew. Same wristwatch or bulb. Intelligence used and preferred Deutsch weapons. Specificity so to speak. The rear services were bought for the same stew and alcohol.
    He laughed at the transfer to another part. There was only one translation from the front end. Wounded in another part. Or in a pinch under an asterisk.
    There were awards. But this is from the headquarters level of the battalion and above.
    As one old opera told me, the grandfathers of the front-line soldiers did not like them. They brought the trunks and stored them only. But they didn't hand over to the police. And then they found the granddaughters. And here's a firearm for you. Walters Lugers and Chechen zbroyovs with all sorts of Poles and Austrians, so awards often surfaced from his words.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 01: 19
      0
      Quote: dgonni
      But they didn't hand over to the police.

      Lighters were made from them. Once I went to a friend, he had a converted Browning in his lighter. In the shutter - flint, in the store - gasoline ... wink
      1. dgonni
        dgonni 4 January 2021 01: 21
        0
        Yes it was. I personally saw such.
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 01: 26
          0
          Quote: dgonni
          Yes it was. I personally saw such.

          And in the mid-80s, parabellums were sold for 25 rubles. I didn't have enough finances. And Schmeiser with a bucket of cartridges for 900 rubles. But this is already at the end of the 90s.
          1. dgonni
            dgonni 4 January 2021 01: 29
            0
            Do not remember that. There were 25 factory homemade products for small pieces. I also heard tales of a Schmeiser with a bucket of cartridges in the area of ​​the piece.
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 01: 35
              0
              Quote: dgonni
              I also heard tales of a Schmeiser with a bucket of cartridges in the area of ​​the piece.

              My uncle offered me. They killed him. And the parabellum was slipped in at the age of nine.
    2. aglet
      aglet 4 January 2021 12: 49
      0
      "In the novel by Vanka Rotny, everything is straightforwardly written for short barrels!"
      perhaps you just haven't read it, and haven't even seen it in your eyes.
      explain why. not a novel, but a story, not a company commander, but a platoon commander, and who is the author, would you remind me?
      1. dgonni
        dgonni 4 January 2021 15: 34
        0
        The conclusions were firmly accepted. Hard! Shumilin is a company commander! At least with this option, I read it in net!
        And I reread it at least three times.
        Since in some of the described places I have been nearby and I needed to refresh my memory.
        1. aglet
          aglet 5 January 2021 08: 05
          0
          "Shumilin Vanka Company Company"
          I beg your pardon, the memory failed. now you have to check all the answers in advance
      2. Pan_hrabio
        Pan_hrabio 4 January 2021 15: 59
        0
        No, everything is correct. Namely "Vanka-company" by Alexander Shumilin. Whether it was there about short-barrels - I don't remember.
  • Edvid
    Edvid 4 January 2021 02: 32
    -5
    A long time ago I read the memoirs of a man who had to do with the shooting of the Poles. Now they can't even be found ... He said that domestic pistols often misfired or failed. Therefore, two suitcases of "Walters" and cartridges were brought from Moscow. He even mentioned the name of the employee who brought them ... These pistols never let down.
    1. mmaxx
      mmaxx 4 January 2021 08: 27
      +2
      What nonsense! They took the Poles out and fired. "The weapon will go crazy! We can't shoot. Bring another one!" And in response: "Oh, a mess! We'll deliver right now!"
      Can you imagine this yourself? In our bodies or in the army?
    2. meandr51
      meandr51 4 January 2021 18: 01
      +1
      These "memories" cost $ 100.
    3. Yellow bubble
      Yellow bubble 4 January 2021 23: 44
      +2
      It is very strange that our Poles allegedly shoot and at the same time created the Polish army to be sent to Iran ?????????????? Not a link Goebbels was forgiven somewhere !!!
  • Vadim_888
    Vadim_888 4 January 2021 13: 00
    0
    ... No one thought to replace them with powerful, reliable, long-range service TTs and Nagans.

    About the revolvers, the fragment is straightforward "pleased", especially considering its rate of fire ....
  • The eye of the crying
    The eye of the crying 4 January 2021 16: 27
    -1
    hefty, kilograms per hundred, kid-fritz


    he will strangle him with his hands, a fat fascist!


    This is exactly what you expect from a fighter against inventions.
  • Victor Tsenin
    Victor Tsenin 4 January 2021 16: 43
    0
    All sides had strong samples, P38 in terms of the totality of qualities more fully corresponded to not so long-standing requirements, therefore 9mm is more alive than many. That our best weapon is superior cannot be questioned, just as that we both learn the best and welcomed 9mm.
  • misti1973
    misti1973 4 January 2021 17: 14
    -1
    What a cheap populism! Of course, the German pistols were of the best quality! Moreover, in terms of design and performance characteristics, the Walter P-38 was an ideal weapon at that time.
  • Andrey Evseev
    Andrey Evseev 4 January 2021 17: 33
    0
    Now it is practically impossible to buy a Luger, only if it is a rare collectible weapon at some incredible price, but almost all stores are filled with Walters P38. True, these are not originals, but a modern copy for the same 9X19 cartridge, but the price is quite reasonable.
  • meandr51
    meandr51 4 January 2021 17: 57
    0
    I would not refuse TT in Karelia or Kamchatka. It weighs a little, but it is really possible to fight off a bear. He punches his head. Enough of such cases have been noted.
    1. hound
      hound 4 January 2021 23: 38
      -2
      I never shot at bears, but as a child I saw a cop point-blank shot in the forehead of a pit bull, who grabbed his leg. Seemingly? And in figs, I did not pierce my forehead obliquely, it was lucky that I slipped into the eye socket and went out through the ear.
  • hound
    hound 4 January 2021 23: 34
    0
    Well, yes, TT is our everything ... I shot from TT, knocks down quite accurately. But with rotating targets at 25 - well, very inconvenient. But p.08 is the opposite. p.38 did not try, but the fact that it was adopted, like p-1, says something. Incidentally, one deer in the shooting range dropped a TT (it was escaping like a cowboy) - the pants remained dry, but the bullet that went into the ceiling made everyone sit down abruptly. It's good that the ricochet to the targets is gone.
  • Yellow bubble
    Yellow bubble 4 January 2021 23: 39
    +1
    It all depends on the hand, big or small paw, Walter is comfortable with a large paw and Yarygin is also, tm, narrow but it's ok to shoot, but because of the cartridge it was painful without gloves, Makarov baby is good for the pocket !!!
  • Radiator
    Radiator 5 January 2021 01: 09
    0
    Well, the "argument" about the desire to possess a trophy - the Germans were simply packed with Soviet trophy weapons and equipment. They prayed for mosinki, especially prayed at SVT, grabbed the PPSh, I am silent about the teaching staff, you can list for a long time.
    There is a "boy" psychological effect to have 1) new, 2) taken away from the enemy, 3) distinguishing you from others. What added the desire to have a trophy
  • akela_sp
    akela_sp 5 January 2021 01: 52
    0
    Great article. I haven't read this for a long time. The author cannot stop. We must definitely continue. I want to read the origins and analysis of the myth about the pitiful Austrian and Italian crafts such as Glock and Beretta. And no less convincing justification that the Makarov and Yarygin pistols are much much better.
  • Michael HORNET
    Michael HORNET 5 January 2021 21: 44
    0
    Well, with all that is stated, the best military pistol since the Second World War is Browning HP.
    Which does not negate the absolute scantiness of the influence of pistols in general
  • Dormidontych
    Dormidontych 17 January 2021 12: 28
    0
    Everything is clear and to the point.
  • serggb
    serggb 19 January 2021 20: 54
    0
    Since the summer of 1941, my father fought as a signalman in the 177th rifle division. He said that he always carried a trophy small "ladies'" pistol in his breast (!) Pocket, in order to shoot himself, and not be captured by the Germans.
  • Andrey Evseev
    Andrey Evseev 31 January 2021 14: 26
    0
    Well, judging by the cost of weapons of the Wehrmacht in our country compared to weapons from Russia, then this is far from a myth. If an ordinary TT of the forties can be bought somewhere for 100 euros, then the same Parabelum costs many times more. An acquaintance of mine, the owner of a shooting club and a shop selling used weapons, told how one day a man brought him a Walther P38 pistol from World War II for sale. The pistol was in perfect condition, as well as all the parts on it were perfectly fitted to a fraction of a micron and just as perfectly polished, there were all brands and numbers, but the main feature of this pistol was that it was not issued in a large batch and was intended as an award weapon for the highest ranks of the Wehrmacht and it had a dedication with the personal signature of Adolf Hitler, which was allegedly he personally engraved every pistol. The seller offered the possibility of exchanging this pistol for the car of the owner of the BMW X5 club, but he nevertheless suspected something was wrong and that it could be a modern fake worth no more than 1000 euros, refused, realizing that such a pistol costs much more, since there are about three of them left in the world pieces, two of which are now in the USA.
  • froger
    froger 3 February 2021 23: 26
    0
    As soon as I saw political motives in the preface to the article, I immediately understood - - how we broke them, showed Kuzka's mother. We won, so Maxim is better than MG-39 or 41. There is no analysis of technical characteristics, no ease of use, no comparative assessments of reliability - so basically one "patriotic" chatter, and there are no proofs and arguments. You need to read the comments - there are sensible thoughts - and on the essence of the problem.
  • Sergey Ottovich
    Sergey Ottovich 22 February 2021 21: 49
    0
    "powerful long-range revolvers" are five! laughing