Military Review

"And liquidate as a class!"

583

Marina Ladynina is an order-bearer, a tractor driver, a collective farmer, but in reality she is a star of the Soviet cinema screen of the 30s ... A still from the 1939 movie "Tractor Drivers"


The storms of revolutionary bosoms have calmed down.
The Soviet mishmash was covered with mud.
And got out
from behind the RSFSR
mug
tradesman.
From all the immense Russian fields,
from the first day of Soviet birth
they flocked,
hastily changed feathers,
and sat down in all institutions.
(V. Mayakovsky. About rubbish)

The beginning and end of the peasant civilization. Today is the fifth article on the topic of the end of the peasant civilization. I really hope that after reading the previous article, those of you, dear readers of VO, who would like to comment on this material today, found the strength and time to read the report of I. V. Stalin (I. V. Stalin's speech at the conference of agrarian Marxists " On the issues of agrarian policy in the USSR ”, December 27, 1929), because there the role of the Soviet kulaks of the 20s and the reason why it was impossible to touch him at that time is very well explained. But since 1929, the situation both in the country and in the world has changed dramatically. A crisis broke out in the United States, many farmers went bankrupt, and grain production fell sharply. A real possibility of exchanging "grain for factories" appeared, which undoubtedly put an end to the "kulaks" as a social stratum in the Soviet countryside. And this despite the fact that the kulaks of the pre-revolutionary and Soviet kulaks of the 20s were very different. The pre-revolutionary ones are usurers. The Soviets are hard workers, but they make use of the hired labor of the poor. But they were also closer to capitalism, so in a socialist country it was impossible to put up with it further.

A situation arose that was somewhat very similar to that which took place in England during the era of fencing. It needed cloth, and traditional peasant tenants stood in his way. And they were destroyed! Our traditional peasant small-scale commodity system stood in the way of the country's industrialization. And also had to be destroyed. The new machine civilization did not require a peasant to own the land. She didn't even need a user (as in the USSR)! What was needed was a hired worker on the land, who did not reason about what to sow - grain or potatoes, but would do what was ordered for a salary.

And everything began, as in England, only adjusted for the era. Although the methods were not very different. Then they were beaten, branded and hanged. In our country, famine came to the aid of the state, with which no one particularly fought in the early 30s, then the repressions of 1934-1941. If someone thinks that they suffered mainly from the military, the Chekists themselves, "old party members", "sabotage engineers", "poisoning doctors", "fascist spies" and others with them, he is cruelly mistaken. In the RGVA they calculated: 60% of the repressed are peasants who were exiled to the GULAG as a cheap slave force. So, my scientific advisor, Professor Medvedev, who worked in Moldova, back in Soviet times, proved with documents in his hands that after its annexation to the USSR, 10 householders were repressed there after its annexation to the USSR, and in reality there were many more, but just no documents were found. That is, a frank act of arbitrariness was committed against these people. It is difficult to explain from the point of view of the slogans proclaimed in the USSR, but quite understandable from the economic point of view. The peasantry, which had become a brake on the country's economy, was annihilated with any "trump cards", just to eliminate it.

And now let's turn to a very interesting book by N. Voznesensky, Chairman of the USSR State Planning Committee. And let's start not with the text, but with a photocopy of its corner. "Withdrawn" - it says there, and only then my mother somehow managed to get it ...


Here she is in front of you ...

"And liquidate as a class!"

This corner ...

And in it there are numbers, many numbers showing why we defeated Germany, and the numbers are compared with percentages, sometimes with numbers, so it is impossible to find out anything exactly from it. But ... you can still use some data from it. And here we read:


It's about the growth in the number of townspeople before the war


It's about the growth of workers and employees

And now the modern data available to everyone today: the first five-year plan (1928-1932) was associated with an incredible pace of urbanization. The urban workforce increased by 12,5 million, of which 8,5 million were rural migrants. Nevertheless, the USSR reached a share of 50% of the urban population only in the early 1960s. And ... again let us recall Lenin and his words from the past material: "A giant petty-bourgeois wave has risen ..." Well, after all, it did not dissipate anywhere after the revolution and the Civil War, and the mass of peasants in the cities remained! When did Mayakovsky write his poems "On Trash"? In 1920-1921. Here it is ... And now we will continue our epigraph:

“The threads of the philistine revolution have entangled them.
Philistine life is more terrible than Wrangel.
Rather
roll canary heads -
so communism
was not beaten by canaries! "


We go further according to the book of N. Voznesensky ...

You should think about this paragraph carefully ... Look how much the sown area and gross grain production have increased in 22 years. For 37 million hectares and 3 billion poods. And now what is not in these lines, but what was in reality. Before collectivization, up to a THREE of the cultivated land lay ... in the borderlands and was excluded from the crop rotation. And now this third has been plowed with tractors! But at the same time, grain production has grown very insignificantly, not several times, and only on the basis of the extensive growth of collective farm plowing! Which clearly indicates that the collective farmers were not interested in working "for their uncle" and even worked on tractors carelessly. However, here I have already published a number of articles with materials from the Pravda newspaper about how badly the equipment on the collective farms was monitored and how badly it was repaired. And although there were shock tractor drivers, the bulk of the peasants did not work well!


The female tractor drivers in the cinema worked well! Shot from the movie "Tractor Drivers"

And here are the data on the population of the USSR in 1940: 195 people. And how much grain was harvested is known. Well, who's good at math? Let's divide and find out how much grain was produced per capita. I got 392 pounds. And now let's compare: in 000, 37 poods of grain per capita were harvested in Russia. In the USA - 1913 poods, in Argentina - 30,3 poods, in Canada - 64,3 poods. Thus, in terms of grain harvest per capita, the United States was two times ahead of Tsarist Russia, Argentina - three times, and Canada - four times. Well, in the USSR, at the cost of colossal costs, tears and blood (and the fact that it was pouring, we can even learn from Sholokhov's Virgin Soil Upturned, and his letters to Stalin are a very interesting source [87,4]), the yield became only slightly higher, than it was in tsarist times!

Was there a work front where they worked well? Yes, I was! And again we look at the book of N. Voznesensky ...


Livestock indicators. It seems to be growth, isn't it?

However, not all of these figures comrade. Voznesensky said. He did not give the figures that Comrade. Stalin named it at the XVII Congress of the CPSU (b). And he gave the following data in his reporting report: horses (1929 - 34,0 million heads) - in 1933 - 16,6 million; cattle (1929 - 68,1 million heads) - in 1933 - 38,6 million; sheep and goats (1929 - 147,2 million heads) - in 1933 50,6 million; pigs (1929 - 20,9 million heads) - in 1933 - 12,2 million. That is, so many people cut cattle into collectivization that the grave consequences of mass slaughter were felt three years later. Yes, according to the book of Voznesensky, the number of livestock in collective farms was growing, but "my beast" was also bred in peasant farmsteads, where its massive growth was also observed. But for some reason he did not give these figures. Do you know why? So that it would not be seen that on collective farms, animal husbandry, like grain growing, developed "anyhow". But on the other hand, the peasants worked conscientiously on their personal subsidiary plots. They could not grow grain, but they raised cattle both for themselves and for sale for meat in the city! And there the pace was not much higher than the collective farm. That is, they cut it themselves, then by 1940 they raised it!


S-65 "Stalinets" (diesel) - the striking force of the revolution in the countryside. Shot from the movie "Tractor Drivers"

That is, the goal of turning the peasants of Russia into hired agricultural workers in the 30s was generally achieved. In England, their number was reduced through "bloody laws", in our country through hunger, "freezing" (see Sholokhov's letters to Stalin) and the GULAG. The mass of peasants from the "immense Russian fields" migrated to the cities, where they brought their peasant morality, petty-bourgeois psychology and traditions of patriarchal culture. There was a petty-bourgeois village - the city became petty-bourgeois. The level of the urban subculture has dropped sharply. And for some reason no one really thought about the consequences of these. They introduced universal primary education in 1930 and ... everything is fine. As a result, before the war, there were only 1000 people per 77 people with a secondary and seven-year education. And six (six in total!) People with the highest. In the Red Army, personnel hunger reverberated in 1941-1942. - on January 1, 1941, only 7% of the commanding staff of the army and fleet had a higher military education, and only half had a secondary education. But education is not everything. It is important to understand that for the development of a certain consciousness and culture, the life of three generations is required, that is, from 60-75 to 90 years (it depends on which of the generational theories you count!), But only “at the top” we have for some reason no one and did not even think ... Although the same Stalin in his reports at the congresses and said, while referring to Lenin, that it takes a lot of time to develop a proletarian consciousness. But I didn't really focus on this topic. Apparently, he believed that gradually we will develop it on its own ... Step by step!


And the film "Tractor Drivers" ended, of course, with a wedding, at which everyone sang in unison: "Thundering fire, sparkling with the brilliance of steel, the machines will go on a furious campaign, when Comrade Stalin sends us into battle, and the First Marshal will lead us into battle!" (Music by the Pokrass brothers, lyrics by Boris Laskin)


The formation of collective farms in the USSR is very interesting, reliably and humorously written in N. Smirnov's story "Jack the Eight American". Cover of the first edition of the book

Additional literature:
1. From the correspondence between M. A. Sholokhov and I. V. Stalin. April 4 - May 6, 1933
2. Stalin I. V. Report to the 26th Party Congress on the work of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) January 1934, 13 (Stalin I. V. Works. - T. 1951. - M .: State Publishing House of Political Literature, 282. S. 379- XNUMX)
3. "Jack the Eight American" - a story by Nikolai Smirnov, first published in 1930. See editions 1933, 1969, 2012, 2013.

To be continued ...
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  1. apro
    apro 3 January 2021 04: 31
    -1
    In our country, famine came to the aid of the state, with which no one particularly fought in the early 30s, then the repressions of 1934-1941. 

    As I understand it. red if not organized. then at least rejoiced in hunger ???? and what does it mean came ??? an inexplicable phenomenon. God's punishment for sins? or there were objective reasons.
    1. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 3 January 2021 06: 16
      +4
      Quote: apro
      red if not organized. then at least rejoiced in hunger ????

      Red - that is, the peasants themselves ??? belay
      1. apro
        apro 3 January 2021 06: 33
        40 th
        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        Red - that is, the peasants themselves ???

        The Reds, Communists, Bolsheviks, Jidobesheviks.
        1. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 3 January 2021 06: 34
          0
          That is, including the peasants?
          1. apro
            apro 3 January 2021 06: 37
            23 th
            From peasants, from workers, from the nobility, from the military.
            1. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 3 January 2021 06: 54
              +2
              As required. hi
              1. apro
                apro 3 January 2021 08: 10
                11 th
                Quote: Sahar Medovich
                As required.

                What to prove ???
                1. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 3 January 2021 09: 32
                  0
                  That the Reds, Communists, Bolsheviks are peasants. Including.
                  1. apro
                    apro 3 January 2021 09: 44
                    -4
                    That is, the peasants themselves and the Reds rejoiced in hunger ???
                    1. hhhhhhh
                      hhhhhhh 3 January 2021 09: 59
                      10
                      Did the people command the commissaries from the city or local peasants?
                      Maybe you already had enough to talk nonsense from the Ogonyok magazine of the 80s, and read the documents?
                      1. SARANCHA1976
                        SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 11: 30
                        14
                        I support .. we have 15% of arable land from all over the country + the climate for agriculture is half openly risky, why is not the harvest and famine since the king of peas happened regularly .. and these "millions" of kulaks-peasants exiled to the Main Management annoyance and irony at the commentators
                      2. lucul
                        lucul 3 January 2021 12: 10
                        14 th
                        I support .. we have 15% of arable land from all over the country + the climate for farming in half is frankly risky, why not a harvest and famine since the king of peas has happened regularly ..

                        Yeah, and it is thanks to these that 15% of the Russian Federation today does not buy grain for gold, but is it the first grain exporter in the world? )))
                      3. Taga
                        Taga 3 January 2021 12: 20
                        +6
                        How long?
                        Let's go back to the golden times when: We will not finish, but we will sell!
                      4. lucul
                        lucul 3 January 2021 12: 37
                        -8
                        How long?

                        Before the first communists.
                    2. SARANCHA1976
                      SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 12: 35
                      +5
                      I will give you an idea from the very democrats on earth, our regions of the Non-Black Earth Region, according to climatic standards, are considered unsuitable for agriculture.
                      RF today does not buy grain for gold, and the first exporter of grain in the world? ))) Urya gentlemen .. so I think that then in the store a loaf of bread 500gr already for 50 rubles. Fills up if there is so much of it. And at the expense of the importer of the numbers, give them and we will easily sort them out
                    3. lucul
                      lucul 3 January 2021 12: 41
                      12 th
                      And at the expense of the importer of the numbers, give them and we will easily sort them out

                      Pfff ..... it’s you who are refuting - so shame me)))
                    4. SARANCHA1976
                      SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 13: 26
                      +5
                      Well, everything is clear with you, I won’t let you limit myself to the duty officer, which, in the absence of arguments, causes only irony
                2. paul3390
                  paul3390 3 January 2021 13: 44
                  17
                  Uh-huh .. But we buy beef .. Which used to be grown with this grain as well .. And now we mix feed grain into bread. You should watch less victorious Putin reports on TV ..
                3. lucul
                  lucul 3 January 2021 13: 56
                  14 th
                  Uh-huh .. But we buy beef .. Which used to be grown with this grain too

                  Well, yes, well, yes, I completely forgot - but 60 million head of cattle were in 1991 and there was no meat on the shelves of stores, we remember, we remember.
                4. paul3390
                  paul3390 3 January 2021 13: 58
                  14
                  Well, yes - the suit itself refers to the 91st. When yours has practically ruined the Union .. But now - imported meat in bulk, only the people have no money .. Even the authorities advise to switch to macaroshki ..
                5. lucul
                  lucul 3 January 2021 14: 00
                  12 th
                  When yours has practically ruined the Union ..

                  And I don't need to be ranked among God's chosen ones.
                  But now - imported meat in bulk, only the people have no money

                  Has the Holodomor begun?
                6. Odessa Greek
                  Odessa Greek 3 January 2021 19: 16
                  12 th
                  All right according to the instructions - to say about "macaroshki", the cooperative "Lake" and Lyoshka Navalny's safety pants))))). You yourself are very hungry, probably from hunger you hardly poke on the keyboard ??? Ah ah ah)
              2. Ross xnumx
                Ross xnumx 3 January 2021 17: 38
                17
                Quote: lucul
                Well, yes, well, yes, I completely forgot - but 60 million head of cattle were in 1991 and there was no meat on the shelves of stores, we remember, we remember.

                So what if you remember? You look at the past with one crooked eye and do not say that there were house kitchens, work canteens, kindergartens and schools, where most of the meat went ... You did not even bother to remember how much lunch cost in the dining room ... You didn’t bother to point out that in sports clubs children were given food stamps in canteens ...
                Okay, all this "was long ago and not true" ... Can you tell today why meat appeared in stores? Is it because its quality and price differ significantly (for example, with farm stores). And in the package with the name "mixed minced meat" we can find very even "funny minced meat" ... Or do you come to the store and take "Stewed beef" in spite of the manufacturer? Or explain to you why 1 kg of dumplings from different manufacturers costs differently?
            2. DrEng527
              DrEng527 4 January 2021 16: 29
              -6
              Quote: paul3390
              But we buy beef.

              not a lot, but we sell a lot of pork and poultry meat!
              Quote: paul3390
              And now - we mix the feed grain into bread.

              lies!
              Quote: paul3390
              you need to watch Putin's reports on TV ..

              where are they to the program Time or the congresses of the CPSU bully
            3. Andrey Stavropolsky
              Andrey Stavropolsky 4 January 2021 17: 50
              -4
              Where to look? To see only negative everywhere? There are problems and there are many of them, but the country does not stand still. To compare it with the Russian Federation 15 years ago, it is like heaven and earth.
          2. Simargl
            Simargl 3 January 2021 14: 30
            12
            Quote: lucul
            and the first grain exporter in the world?
            It remains to decide: due to what?
            Not at the expense of the fallen at times in animal husbandry?
            Or do they care for the population, lower cholesterol?
          3. your1970
            your1970 4 January 2021 22: 39
            -2
            Quote: Simargl
            Quote: lucul
            and the first grain exporter in the world?
            It remains to decide: due to what?
            Not at the expense of the fallen at times in animal husbandry?
            Or do they care for the population, lower cholesterol?

            the number of cows in the district remained at about the level of the USSR + -10%, the number of sheep is even a little more. They were always fed with grain - then, now, we have very little hay ...
          4. Simargl
            Simargl 5 January 2021 05: 59
            +1
            Quote: your1970
            the number of cows in the district of farmers remained approximately at the level of the USSR + -10%


          5. your1970
            your1970 5 January 2021 17: 22
            -1
            Quote: Simargl
            Quote: your1970
            the number of cows in the district of farmers remained approximately at the level of the USSR + -10%


            And what ?! I wrote somewhere that my data is correct all RF ???? !!
            Я RUSSIAN language wrote - about наш district.
            Moreover, I know for sure that the situation is similar in neighboring areas.

            Even more, but this [b] documented [/ b] not confirmed: farmers who NOT participated in state programs or NOT took cattle for loans - UNDERSTAND the livestock is very strong ... To pay less taxes, have black cash and spend less on veterinarians for compulsory vaccinations .......
            I am 200% sure that this practice is practiced by farmers all over the country ..
          6. Alecsandr
            Alecsandr 8 January 2021 09: 24
            0
            Most likely, this is so. It is not profitable for farmers now to accurately indicate the number of livestock and resources in their farm. Anyone will not tell everyone how much and what he has in his house and in his wallet.
  2. bk0010
    bk0010 4 January 2021 01: 50
    10
    Quote: lucul
    Yeah, and it is thanks to these that 15% of the Russian Federation today does not buy grain for gold, but is it the first grain exporter in the world? )))
    The surplus of grain today is due to the fact that in the 90s the cattle was exhausted. Previously, this grain was used for feed.
  3. Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 02: 02
    +5
    Quote: bk0010
    Previously, this grain was used for feed.

    88th year. The guys are sailing to the fishermen. The fishermen have string bags for bait. Each contains about five to eight loaves of bread in water. "Why? I buy with mine!" This is in Istra.
  4. DrEng527
    DrEng527 4 January 2021 14: 56
    -4
    Quote: SARANCHA1976
    and these "millions" of kulak-peasants exiled

    why in quotes? 2,4 million were exiled in the 30s request
    Quote: SARANCHA1976
    already tired of the order and causes annoyance and irony to commentators
    propose to write off as a sack and throw it out of history? What kind of humanist you are, not from the NKVD family for nothing? hi
  5. Simargl
    Simargl 5 January 2021 10: 38
    +1
    Quote: DrEng527
    2,4 million were exiled in the 30s
    Yes. They repressed in such a way that from one fist turned out M.T. Kalashnikov, and from the other - B.N. Yeltsin (these are the most famous kulak children in the world, although the second is the last trash)
  6. DrEng527
    DrEng527 5 January 2021 17: 25
    0
    Quote: Simargl
    Yes. They repressed so much that from one fist it turned out

    so hardworking people were, not lazy out of poverty ... request
    I note that at least 300 tons of them perished along Zemskov in the first 3 years ...
  7. Simargl
    Simargl 6 January 2021 11: 42
    0
    Quote: DrEng527
    so hardworking people were, not lazy out of poverty ...
    Actually, I’m not about hard work, but about the fact that, firstly, not everyone was “repressed” (execution and deportation to areas unsuitable for life), and secondly, these repressions did not have a strong impact on the descendants politically.
  8. DrEng527
    DrEng527 6 January 2021 13: 24
    -1
    Quote: Simargl
    firstly, not everyone is the same (shooting and deportation to areas unsuitable for life),

    oh thanks to the Soviet government for never shooting only about 140, exiled 000 million (and with children!), and robbed 2,3 million ...
    Quote: Simargl
    and secondly, these repressions did not have a strong political impact on the descendants.

    Seriously? bully Did you fill out Soviet questionnaires? there were points and the children of kulaks for a long time - before Khrushchev, they had problems ...
  9. Simargl
    Simargl 7 January 2021 06: 05
    -1
    Quote: DrEng527
    only shot about 140
    Surely no way?

    Quote: DrEng527
    exiled 2,3 million (and with children!)
    I wonder if they were exiled without children - would they howl harder?

    Quote: DrEng527
    Really? Did you fill out Soviet questionnaires?
    So I'm too young.

    Quote: DrEng527
    there were points and the children of kulaks for a long time - before Khrushchev, they had problems ...
    Oh, yes: one brother wrote in the questionnaire "brother was a partisan", the other - "brother was a policeman", and they lived like that. M.T. Kalashnikov was the son of a kulak and he was not repaired with any special problems to overtake the same Degtyarev (or do you think that he was hiding). His family was expelled, but by the standards of the country - not far.
    Yeltsin, despite his origin, received an education and was admitted to power.
    These are the most famous children of the kulaks. You can get more examples, but I think you won't care.
  10. DrEng527
    DrEng527 7 January 2021 13: 23
    -1
    Quote: Simargl
    Surely no way?

    a question of attitude - if you are robbed and killed with your family should you resist? I think that it is necessary, but you seem to have suffered ... request
    Quote: Simargl
    I wonder if they were exiled without children - would they howl harder?

    1) If only ...
    2) People who are usually illiterate in their native history howl, from hopeless stupidity ...
    Quote: Simargl
    So I'm too young.

    that's why you only know the legends about the USSR ... and I lived there for 31 years, I don't want any more ... request
    Quote: Simargl
    he did not repair any special problems to overtake the same Degtyarev

    you confuse warm and soft - Tupolev created Tu-2 in a sharashka and actively helped him ... bully
    Quote: Simargl
    His family was expelled

    this is the 3rd category - within the region ...
    Quote: Simargl
    You can also collect examples,

    individual examples can prove anything, for example, VIL and FED were from the nobility, but under the USSR they had no problems and did not fall under the Red Terror ... bully

    Quote: Simargl
    but you, I think, will not care.

    motivatedly I believe that you do not know how to think ... request
  11. Simargl
    Simargl 7 January 2021 21: 03
    +1
    Quote: DrEng527
    a question of attitude - if you are robbed and killed with your family should you resist? I think that it is necessary, but you seem to have suffered ...
    For example, I don't go to rallies against the authorities.
    And I have not yet been repressed.

    Quote: DrEng527
    If yes, if only ...
    But this is a question: in your opinion, was it necessary without children?
    Quote: DrEng527
    People who are usually illiterate in their native history howl, from hopeless stupidity ...
    I don't howl if you haven't noticed.
    Quote: DrEng527
    that's why you only know the legends about the USSR ... and I lived there for 31 years, I don't want any more ...
    Of course, I am smaller, but do you still think that there was only one USSR? So, offhand, there were at least three of them, you lived in the latter.

    Quote: DrEng527
    you confuse warm and soft - Tupolev created Tu-2 in a sharashka and actively helped him ...
    Is this the one who was brutally persecuted for nothing?

    Quote: DrEng527
    this is the 3rd category - within the region ...
    This means that not everyone is one size fits all, does it? The degree of guilt was determined, which means that there was an investigation and a court ... strange.

    Quote: DrEng527
    individual examples can prove anything
    Statistics show the state of affairs.
    Quote: DrEng527
    for example, VIL and FED were from the nobility, but under the USSR they had no problems and did not fall under the Red Terror ...
    Are you trying to prove that you can twirl the conclusions however you want? There were many noblemen who were useful to the Soviet regime and did not have any special problems, as well as peasants who did not fit in. So it’s low.

    Quote: DrEng527
    reasonably I believe
    You don't know what motivation is like. This is not chattering.
  12. DrEng527
    DrEng527 8 January 2021 15: 32
    -1
    Quote: Simargl
    For example, I don't go to rallies against the authorities.
    And I have not yet been repressed.

    1) rallies are normal, it's bad when Maidans ... request the government is running around without a response, see the pension reform and the increase in VAT up to 20% with a budget surplus ...
    2) when it will be too late to be repressed ... request
    Quote: Simargl
    But this is a question: in your opinion, was it necessary without children?

    in my opinion, punishing people without trial is arbitrary ... request
    Quote: Simargl
    I don't howl if you haven't noticed.

    this is a summary of your position:
    Quote: Simargl
    but that first of all, not everyone was "repressed"

    Quote: Simargl
    but you still think that there was one USSR? So, offhand, there were at least three of them, you lived in the latter.

    you can count in different ways - the most reasonable is according to the leaders request by the way - the last and penultimate one, in which I was already an adult, these are his best options, although strange in everything hi In hindsight, you are horrified at how we lived ... request
    Quote: Simargl
    Is this the one who was brutally persecuted for nothing?

    once rehabilitated, then for nothing ... request and there are many people like him, even from geniuses ...
    Quote: Simargl
    The degree of guilt was determined, which means that there was an investigation and a court ... strange.

    there was no investigation, no trial ... political arbitrariness - they wanted and robbed ...
    Quote: Simargl
    Statistics show the state of affairs.

    did you give statistics? read Zemsky's articles - maybe you will understand, there are statistics ...
    Quote: Simargl
    So it’s low.

    You don't have enough education to give me credit ... bully as for the rest of that phrase, you whipped yourself ...
    Quote: Simargl
    You don't know what motivation is like.

    not at all ... wink
  13. Simargl
    Simargl 8 January 2021 23: 04
    0
    Quote: DrEng527
    in my opinion, punishing people without trial is arbitrary ...
    The court was there. Problems with the investigation and prosecution.

    Quote: DrEng527
    the last and the penultimate, at which I was already an adult, these are the best options
    Andropov and Chernenko? Is it one from the network, the other on batteries? belay The last one is Gorby, if that.

    Quote: DrEng527
    once rehabilitated, then for nothing ...
    Probably. I think they somehow decided to rein in him for embezzlement in the United States. However, Stalin considered him innocent, but Tupolev was still convicted. Strange, isn't it?
  14. DrEng527
    DrEng527 9 January 2021 13: 24
    0
    Quote: Simargl
    The court was there

    was not - just a decree of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b)
    Quote: Simargl
    The last one is Gorby, if that.

    I remember, I mean LIB and Gorby ... the rest is a short transitional part ...
    Quote: Simargl
    Strange, is not it?

    no, it is rash to believe the IVS - the type was insidious ...
    I recommend reading Sholokhov's letter to Stalin ...
    https://new.topru.org/m-a-sholoxov-i-v-stalinu/
    I hope a lot will be clear about that era ... hi
  15. Simargl
    Simargl 9 January 2021 18: 03
    0
    Quote: DrEng527
    was not - just a decree of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b)
    Oh, how!

    Quote: DrEng527
    I mean LIB and HumpbackEtc.

    Quote: DrEng527
    last and the penultimate, in which I was already an adult, is best his options
    Just game!

    Quote: DrEng527
    I recommend reading Sholokhov's letter to Stalin ...
    I read this for a long time. And I also know about sabotage, if that.
    They planted a friend's grandfather "for spikelets" ... in fact, those "spikelets" were carts.
  16. DrEng527
    DrEng527 14 January 2021 19: 41
    -1
    Quote: Simargl
    I read this for a long time.

    don't seem to understand ...
    Quote: Simargl
    And I also know about sabotage, if that

    but it never occurred to me why I am not sabotaging and selling grain now?
    Quote: Simargl
    Just game!

    just for you as a theorist bully
  17. Simargl
    Simargl 15 January 2021 05: 55
    +1
    Quote: DrEng527
    don't seem to understand ..
    This is your

    Quote: DrEng527
    but it never occurred to me why I am not sabotaging and selling grain now?
    Now labor productivity is 30 times (I'm being modest) higher. And how is it not sabotaged? Sell, if possible, abroad.
    However, I did not understand the question in a completely different political situation.

    Quote: DrEng527
    just for you as a theorist
    Let's just say: I watched Brezhnev's funeral in the version when he was missed.
  18. DrEng527
    DrEng527 15 January 2021 11: 39
    -1
    Quote: Simargl
    , I did not understand the question in a completely different political situation.

    where does politics? peasants were robbed, and frankly with the use of torture and weapons, attempts at uprisings were suppressed by the NKVD and the Red Army! and now they give subsidies for development ...
    Quote: Simargl
    funeral of Brezhnev

    I have a very good attitude to LIB, the man was normal ... hi
  19. Simargl
    Simargl 15 January 2021 12: 35
    +1
    Quote: DrEng527
    where does politics?
    Politics is someone to spread rot, and to whom to give money, if very simplified.
    Now they are spreading rot peasants, unless they are shooting - the times are not the same.
    For example, a corporation has the opportunity to purchase spare parts at a cheaper price, and equipment, and fuel, and grain to sell 1,5-2 times more expensive ...
    You can, of course, unite, but they do not want to: these are collective farms again! So the Soviet "Niva" and "Belarusians" are still wearing them.

    Quote: DrEng527
    I treat LIB very well, the man was normal ...
    What's the point? Towards the end, I understood and decided little.
    But I mean that I remember some things - they happened with me.
  20. DrEng527
    DrEng527 15 January 2021 13: 14
    -1
    Quote: Simargl
    A sense

    without him everything fell apart ...
    Quote: Simargl
    You can, of course, unite, but they don't want to: these are collective farms again!

    well, fools, it was cooperation even under the tsar ...
    Quote: Simargl
    Now they are spreading rot peasants, unless they shoot

    an example is possible?
  21. Simargl
    Simargl 15 January 2021 13: 36
    +1
    Quote: DrEng527
    without him everything fell apart ...
    On the contrary! With him everything fell into decay. Gorby just formalized it.

    Quote: DrEng527
    well, fools
    I know. The reasons are all the same as under the Tsar and before collectivization: petty-bourgeois sentiments.

    Quote: DrEng527
    an example is possible?
    He gave an example: only corporations and associations have weight.
  22. DrEng527
    DrEng527 15 January 2021 13: 41
    -1
    Quote: Simargl
    With him everything fell into decay. Gorby only formalized it.

    decline began in 1917 request
    Quote: Simargl
    petty bourgeois sentiments.

    it means they will burn out and become agricultural workers
    Quote: Simargl
    only corporations and associations have weight.

    how can it be otherwise? Where are the artisans now? Namely - in niche products, you can't resist a factory - this is a banal economy ... do you want a high-quality and cheap product or expensive and bad? request
  23. Simargl
    Simargl 15 January 2021 16: 13
    0
    Quote: DrEng527
    decline began in 1917
    In which place? Production after 1917 grew almost continuously, as did wealth.

    Quote: DrEng527
    it means they will burn out and become agricultural workers
    I wrote about this. There are three ways.

    Quote: DrEng527
    how can it be otherwise?
    What am I talking about? Don't they just shoot. But from the ground they survive. In addition, a bomb has been planted of a sharp impoverishment of such petty-bourgeois individualists, and this is, in fact, hunger, crime and destruction. They will shoot themselves ... something like that ...
  24. DrEng527
    DrEng527 16 January 2021 13: 27
    0
    Quote: Simargl
    Production after 1917 grew almost continuously, as did wealth.

    what kind of nonsense ... well-being in the USSR equaled that of RI in the late 1950s ... request

    Quote: Simargl
    Don't they just shoot. But from the ground they survive.

    Economically, not politically!
    Quote: Simargl
    They will shoot themselves ..

    or leave for the city ...
  25. Andrey Krasnoyarsky
    Andrey Krasnoyarsky 3 January 2021 12: 56
    18
    During the period of collectivization, there were no longer any kombeds. These committees existed from 1918-1919. And the Bolsheviks themselves dispersed them. The kombeds were supposed to be the main ally of the proletariat - the poorest peasants. But it turned out that the poorest for the most part are alcoholics, parasites and chronic losers, so their reign infuriated not only the richer kulaks, but all other peasants. So that the peasants would not be completely disillusioned with Soviet power, these commissars had to be liquidated. And the Bolsheviks learned a lesson: most of all, it is not the revolutionary people who dreams of taking away and dividing the property of others, but the lumpenized gopota. And this is not only in Soviet Russia, but always, everywhere and at all times, including the present.
  26. your1970
    your1970 3 January 2021 16: 49
    -9
    Quote: Andrey Krasnoyarsky
    А Bolsheviks learned a lesson: more than anyone else, it is not the revolutionary people who dreams of taking away and dividing the property of others, but the lumpenized gopota.

    Oooops ...
    It is you who now called a lot of people on VO "lumpenized gopota" .... Oh, how .... And they consider themselves to be national guardians ...
    And then you - "gopota .."
  27. BMP-2
    BMP-2 4 January 2021 17: 26
    +4
    Your own, and you are a stranger, since you isolate yourself from a heap of people! :))
  28. your1970
    your1970 4 January 2021 22: 40
    -3
    Quote: BMP-2
    Your own, and you are a stranger, since you isolate yourself from a heap of people! :))
    -from a bunch of bots - yes, I do ... I try to have my own opinion ...
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 3 January 2021 10: 40
    -1
    Quote: apro
    There are the peasants themselves and the Reds rejoiced in hunger ???

    That's what I asked.
    1. apro
      apro 3 January 2021 10: 42
      -3
      Quote: Sahar Medovich
      That's what I asked.

      So this is my question ...
    2. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 3 January 2021 11: 52
      0
      And before that there was mine ... hi
  • lucul
    lucul 3 January 2021 12: 08
    -7
    That the Reds, Communists, Bolsheviks are peasants. Including.

    "All power to the Soviets," isn't it? )))
    1. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 3 January 2021 14: 20
      +4
      So.
      1. lucul
        lucul 3 January 2021 14: 27
        11 th
        So.

        "All power to the Soviets without the Bolsheviks"
        Without the Bolsheviks, have you not heard? )))
      2. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 3 January 2021 16: 05
        +4
        Quote: lucul
        "All power to the Soviets without the Bolsheviks"
        Without the Bolsheviks, have you not heard? )))

        I confess: there is NO, I have not heard. "For Soviet power without communists!" I heard, "Down with the communists, long live the Soviet power and the Bolsheviks!" heard, but this ... Although, of course, it is quite possible. And that doesn't change the matter.
  • Sergey Averchenkov
    Sergey Averchenkov 4 January 2021 07: 12
    +2
    I'm red. Zhidobolshevik in your opinion. I beat you and I will beat you.
    1. apro
      apro 4 January 2021 07: 29
      0
      Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
      Zhidobolshevik

      And what is wrong with this word? If the enemy scolds you, it means to be afraid.
      Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
      I'm red

      most of them today are radishes. from red they have a flag on the car park. and pride in the past. to which they have nothing to do. and support market relations. nationalism. and think that it will work itself out. someone will move them to a brighter future.
      1. Sergey Averchenkov
        Sergey Averchenkov 4 January 2021 08: 45
        0
        I'm not the majority. My father is a communist. Not this one now, but the real one. And my mother is the same ... But what am I proving to you - you prove to me.
        1. apro
          apro 4 January 2021 10: 00
          -6
          Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
          But what am I proving to you - you prove to me.

          Life has proven ...
          1. Sergey Averchenkov
            Sergey Averchenkov 4 January 2021 10: 27
            +4
            Proved for you, not for me. Where do you live? Probably in Moscow? If you're still in Moscow ... And I'm in Siberia ... You must understand, I'll just crash you and these are not fairy tales.
            1. apro
              apro 4 January 2021 10: 35
              -5
              Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
              And I am in Siberia ... You must understand, I will just bang you and these are not fairy tales.

              Then you need to move a little east. To the very Far East.
              Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
              Proved for you, not for me

              Young still ... does not understand.
    2. vladcub
      vladcub 4 January 2021 16: 18
      +4
      Zhidobolshevik. Do you have to follow Goebbels?
  • zenion
    zenion 8 January 2021 20: 58
    0
    The author from Marina Ladynina made Maria Ladynina and these are already other people. And this is due to the fact that Ladynina was shot on black and white film, and Maria was shot on color film.
  • Bar1
    Bar1 3 January 2021 07: 19
    0
    There was a real opportunity to exchange "grain for factories", which undoubtedly put an end to "kulaks" as a social stratum in the Soviet countryside

    it is a delusion that the basis of industrialization was the sale of agricultural products abroad. There is such an economist, Katasonov, and so he simply counted the number of factories built -8 thousand and the number of gold equivalent -1.5 tons of gold per plant and this figure was IMPOSSIBLE for the fact that to explain where the funds from the USSR came from to pay for the factory equipment, which was almost ALL imported. It is impossible to explain this by any grain sales.

    Further, about the peasant way of life in those days.
    At the time of the Republic of Ingushetia under A3 there was a peasant community called MIR. This peasant world was brutally plundered by the tsarist government through purchase prices, which bought agricultural products from the peasant community for a penny and then exported and sold these products in the west, while the peasants of Russia were starving and malnourished.
    Under Stolypin, the collapse of the Russian world / community began, the kulaks-world-eaters, the middle peasants (horse) and the poor / farm laborers (no land, no horses) emerged
    Under Soviet power, all the peasants received land, and the percentage of the well-to-do population — kulaks and middle peasants — increased.
    But the Bolshevik state did not need owners on the ground and not on the ground. First, they destroyed the markets where it was possible to sell the fruits of peasant labor (remember the Nizhny Novgorod fair, ditched by the Bolsheviks, we can already say the Stalinists) - this is 30-31. Then MASS collectivization began, dispossession and repression of peasants, as well as the creation of collective farms.
    It turned out that under tsarism they ruined the peasant community-the world, after the revolution, the land was distributed to private ownership, and during collectivization, the peasants were again driven into collectives / collective farms and the land was taken away and already without the right to sell the fruits of their labor on the markets, because they destroyed the markets.
    What was all this for? Here, apparently, the goal was one, that of tsarism, that of the Bolsheviks, this is the ruin and destruction of the Russian peasant society-WORLD.
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 3 January 2021 07: 39
      11
      Well, why do idiocy do something? Collectivization is a completely justified process. We needed workers for industrialization, but where can we find them in an agrarian country ?! That's right, only from the peasants. So everything was done correctly and not at such a feeble pace as now.
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 3 January 2021 07: 58
        +1
        if it were not for being assimilated to mindless creatures, when instead of a head there is a pot, it comes to mind that the peasant Russian world worked as follows.
        Inheritance - most of this land was always passed on to the eldest son, the daughters were supposed to have a dowry when they got married, and the younger ones ALWAYS were that always replenished part of the population of cities when it was possible to go to out-of-town trades, to cities, create artels themselves and be hired as workers and soldiers .so it was ALWAYS in Russia, it was the natural order of the turnover of labor in Russia, which was destroyed by the Roman introduction of serfdom. It was the peasant community / world that were the suppliers of the population to the cities and it was a continuous process.
        And the land that passed from father to eldest son was always in a well-groomed condition and had the maximum return precisely because the son worked with the father of childhood.
        1. strannik1985
          strannik1985 3 January 2021 09: 01
          15
          What is characteristic - now, 30 years after the demise of the USSR, most of the agricultural land is at the disposal of agricultural enterprises, they also provide most of the agricultural products, farmers and peasant farms are outsiders in terms of the main indicators.
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 3 January 2021 09: 48
            +5
            Quote: strannik1985
            What is characteristic - now, 30 years after the demise of the USSR, most of the agricultural land is at the disposal of agricultural enterprises, they also provide most of the agricultural products, farmers and peasant farms are outsiders in terms of the main indicators.


            the situation with the situation of the peasants in the Republic of Ingushetia and in the USSR were very similar.
            Both there and there seemed to be peasant communities in the RI-mir, in the USSR - collective farms, but neither tsarism nor the Bolsheviks allowed the peasants to dispose of the fruits of their labors, as a result, peasant production, both in RI and in the USSR, was the lowest in terms of indicators. yields in the world.
            This is an OBJECTIVE picture of the history of the Russian peasantry.
            Now big farms are afloat, but it is no longer necessary to say that this is the same Russian world from which the Russian culture originated.
            1. strannik1985
              strannik1985 3 January 2021 11: 35
              +7
              I don’t know which ones in the world, but over 10 years of collectivization, the size of agricultural workpieces has grown 4 times, by the way the question for the statisticians is how the accounting was kept.
            2. tatra
              tatra 3 January 2021 12: 49
              +2
              Unlike the enemies of the communists, who ALWAYS, both under the USSR and after their capture of the USSR, lied and lie to the people, the Bolsheviks promised the people what they gave, including the land to the peasants. And in the 20s in the USSR there were 2 times more peasant farms than in RI in 1913. But the peasants themselves began to consume much more of their products, and give much less marketable grain to the townspeople and for export, and in the late 20s, cards had to be introduced in the cities.
          2. Simargl
            Simargl 3 January 2021 20: 56
            0
            Quote: strannik1985
            farmers and peasant farms are outsiders according to the main indicators.
            And they didn’t have much time left: even though RSM produces relatively small equipment for individualists, it is nevertheless very expensive. Therefore, there are exactly three ways for small farms: to grow larger (absorb others and turn into a corporation), merge (sum up capital and ... turn into a corporation) and ... die out.
            Individualists convey old, still Soviet, technique and ... three ways ...
        2. strannik1985
          strannik1985 3 January 2021 09: 32
          +6
          It is the peasant community / peace

          You understand that by 1917 all this is a "deep tradition", it is necessary to invest in land, to invest a lot, it is technically easier through a relatively small number of large agricultural enterprises than through 20 million peasant farms, choosing "what to do "By and large, the Bolsheviks did not.
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 3 January 2021 09: 58
            -2
            Quote: strannik1985
            By and large, the Bolsheviks had no choice "what to do".

            those. do you think that collectivization and dispossession were inevitable? No not so. The Bolsheviks were poisoned by a completely false idea of ​​private property and class enmity. That is why collectivization began. But collectivism was inherent in the Russian peasantry. If the city began to produce tractors and fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides, then for the purchase of such expensive means production, the peasants would need what is inherent in them and what is in their blood is collective labor and the collective distribution of the products of labor, i.e. the peasants could organize themselves and buy a tractor in a club. Well, and of course if the state would go to meet them: loans and deferred payments. But the Bolsheviks solved the problem by force, they took everything away and socialized. As a result, they ruined everything.
            1. strannik1985
              strannik1985 3 January 2021 10: 17
              +5
              No, they are forced to create large agricultural enterprises (like Stolypin, by the way), and collectivization started, because there were few police in the village, as there was a wave of arson / beatings and murders of collective farm activists, and they began to take preventive measures.
              1. Bar1
                Bar1 3 January 2021 10: 59
                0
                Quote: strannik1985
                and collectivization began, because there were few police in the village, as there was a wave of arson / beatings and murders of collective farm activists, and they began to take preventive measures.

                here it is necessary to place accents, where is the effect, and where is the reason?
                I think it was like this: the violent actions of the Bolsheviks (they took away horses and agricultural implements) led to the opposition of the kulaks and the middle peasants.
                1. strannik1985
                  strannik1985 3 January 2021 11: 50
                  +4
                  Time is confusing, collective farms began on a voluntary basis, and the main incentive for entry was the tractor, where the MTS appeared, collective farms grew there. The peak of arsons and other m / a was before complete collectivization.
                2. lucul
                  lucul 3 January 2021 12: 19
                  10 th
                  By and large, the Bolsheviks had no choice "what to do".

                  Have you not heard such a slogan - "For Soviets without Bolsheviks"? )))
                  1. strannik1985
                    strannik1985 3 January 2021 12: 39
                    +3
                    Separate economics from politics. Bothers you
                    1. lucul
                      lucul 3 January 2021 12: 46
                      10 th
                      Separate economics from politics. Bothers you

                      Don't put the cart before the horse - politics is a derivative of economics - and nothing else.
                    2. strannik1985
                      strannik1985 3 January 2021 12: 51
                      +1
                      Yeah, that's what we're talking about - everyone wanted to enlarge the farms, just in different ways.
            2. Simargl
              Simargl 3 January 2021 20: 38
              +2
              Quote: strannik1985
              and collectivization began, because there were few police in the village
              Yes, not because she went! The main problem is that no one began to unite in cartels / collective farms voluntarily (why is another question), because productivity remained extremely low. Collective farms made it possible to industrialize the countryside, use the division of labor, planning ...
              1. strannik1985
                strannik1985 3 January 2021 22: 13
                0
                Yes, not because she went!

                Even as they wanted, most of the peasants were beggars, there was especially nothing to invest, except for land, and the collective farm meant soft loans, seed loans, and the cultivation of the land with a tractor.
                1. Simargl
                  Simargl 4 January 2021 07: 32
                  0
                  Quote: strannik1985
                  Even as they wanted
                  Very little %% understood. Therefore, the absolute majority did not want to.

                  Quote: strannik1985
                  to invest, except for land, there was especially nothing
                  Here !!! Invest.
                  This means - in a common "egg-box".
                  This means that someone will use your property.
                  This means a voluntary surrender of property, in fact.
                  And this after the peasants received at least something?
                  Do you understand human psychology exactly? Now the same thing is happening: the small owner does not want to unite, in the main. But now at least literacy is immeasurably higher (more precisely - it is there, at least some).
                  Quote: strannik1985
                  these are soft loans, seed loans, tractor farming.
                  Not just soft loans, but a collective request to the higher administration. You can't just brush it off as personal.
                  And the crowd is easier to buy a tractor.
                  1. strannik1985
                    strannik1985 4 January 2021 14: 41
                    0
                    Very small

                    75% of the farms are poor (up to 5 acres of land, up to 1 cow and 1 horse), about 20% are middle peasants and only 5% are wealthy.
                    This means - in a common "egg-box"

                    Most of the farms have nothing to invest, the "uncle" (represented by the state) gives, at first it is stable more than it receives.
                    And the crowd is easier to buy a tractor.

                    It was the collective farms that were credited, and not the collective farmers separately, and it is easier to hire a tractor for work, as they did with the MTS (at the same time, about 200 tractors in private hands and collective farms were taken away by the beginning of collectivization).
                  2. Simargl
                    Simargl 4 January 2021 19: 33
                    0
                    Quote: strannik1985
                    75% of the farms are poor (up to 5 acres of land, up to 1 cow and 1 horse), about 20% are middle peasants and only 5% are wealthy.
                    Yes, even 100% are proletarians! Nobody wanted to share after they got something hot! Up to the point that the harvest was destroyed.

                    Quote: strannik1985
                    Most of the farms have nothing to invest, the "uncle" (represented by the state) gives, at first it is stable more than it receives.
                    You learn the story! For example, consistency in land policy.
                    And the way you see it does not have to be reflected either in history or in theory.

                    Quote: strannik1985
                    It was the collective farms that were credited, and not the collective farmers separately, and it is easier to hire a tractor for work
                    What am I talking about? Are you even trying to understand what is written? Or simmer in your delusions?
                    200 tractors? Total? They took (and) from the collective farms (this is interesting ... where did you go)?
        3. mat-vey
          mat-vey 3 January 2021 12: 27
          +2
          Quote: Bar1
          If the city began to produce tractors and fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides, then in order to buy such expensive means of production, the peasants would need what is inherent in them and what is in their blood is collective labor and the collective distribution of labor products, i.e. peasants could

          What, 20 years of peace again?
        4. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 January 2021 13: 34
          -1
          Quote: Bar1
          The Bolsheviks were poisoned by a completely false idea of ​​private property and class enmity. That is why collectivization began. But collectivism was inherent in the Russian peasantry. If the city began to produce tractors and fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides, then the peasants needed to buy such expensive means of production. whatever is inherent in them and what is in their blood is collective labor and the collective distribution of the products of labor, i.e. the peasants could organize themselves and buy a tractor in a club. Well, and of course if the state would go to meet them: loans and deferred payments. But the Bolsheviks solved the problem by force, they took everything away and socialized. As a result, they ruined everything.

          Timur my applause!
          I will finish your thought. The whole circus with "collectivization" was started to obtain resources for the industrialization of the country.
          Moreover, initially the development of industry is associated with the preparation of the country for the fire of the world revolution. It was only after 1925 that an understanding of building a socialist state in a separate country began to emerge. At this stage, the agricultural sector of the economy was the only resource, both in the form of products and in the form of people. Therefore, it is not surprising that it was pumped out.
          In fact, if we consider three options for the development of history, or rather ideas (Trotsky, Bukharin and Stalin), then.
          Trotsky's scenario is a policy of “price scissors” and mobilization of industry and the peasantry. Everything for the revolution, everything for the sake of victory over the world bourgeoisie!
          In a word, the dictatorship of the proletariat.
          I guess what would start for health, would end for peace! Since, despite the rapprochement with the Decists, Trotsky was not ready to build any kind of economic relations with the peasantry. He tried to put the industry under arms more than once. Although the militaristic built Soviet republic, headed by Trotsky, would not have pursued a balanced policy in Europe. And they put an end to the war with Germany during the Spanish Civil War or during the Anschluss of Czechoslovakia. I am afraid to predict how it all ended. No matter how it all ended with the second intervention and the Second World War against the USSR.
          Scenario two - Bukharin. The progressive development of agrarian cooperatives and artisanal farms is bearing fruit, and by the 40s, industry begins to develop. On June 22, 1941, the Great Patriotic War begins, and we are not ready and before the intervention of an ally, we are defeated.
          The third scenario is Stalin's, we know what happened.
          Conclusions, in any variation, we could not have avoided a world war. In Trotsky's version, it is more than likely that we would have been the instigators.
          In the version of "Bukharin", we simply do not have time.
          And only in the version of "Stalin" we got what we got.
          Ps I prefer Stolypin's version of "Ten Years Without War"! Yes, without participating in the First World War. As yesterday the members of the forum got drunk "when Leo fights with the Tiger, it's easier to be a smart monkey in a tree"!
          Well, somewhere like that!
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 3 January 2021 21: 33
            -2
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Cenarion two - Bukharin. The progressive development of agrarian cooperatives and artisanal farms is bearing fruit, and by the 40s, industry begins to develop. On June 22, 1941, the Great Patriotic War begins, and we are not ready and before the intervention of an ally, we are defeated.

            yes it cannot be.
            The life of people / people cannot be stopped. What is 40g? Every person wants to eat now, every day, three times a day. And the peasants will not wait ten years until the cooperation on Bukharin is established. The peasant also lives every day and he constantly needs cloth or clothes and shoes and his family, if he expands the crop rotation , then he needs MORE tools of labor that are made in the city. All this should look like this, the state pays the peasants at negotiated prices, and the peasants buy everything they need on the market. For this we need a FREE MARKET where everyone can trade, but that's it the Bolsheviks did not consider this scenario at all.
        5. Simargl
          Simargl 3 January 2021 20: 44
          +5
          Quote: Bar1
          But collectivism was inherent in the Russian peasantry.
          Do not confuse us with the Chinese.

          Quote: Bar1
          If the city began to produce tractors and fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides, then in order to buy such expensive means of production, the peasants would need what is inherent in them and what is in their blood is collective labor and the collective distribution of labor products, i.e. peasants could organize themselves and collectively buy a tractor.
          Nothing of the kind! Initially, the kulaks were trying to make something like "chairmen of collective farms", but they remained usurers, rowing for themselves and for themselves. And the peasantry were terrible individualists. The peasants were brought up for centuries like this.
          Tractors were produced, but only a few of them were bought. Only with the advent of collective farms began to buy equipment in large quantities!
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 3 January 2021 21: 10
            0
            Quote: Simargl
            Do not confuse us with the Chinese.

            and whose will you be?

            Rural society (society, rural community, peasant community, world) is a unit of administrative and economic self-government of the peasants of the Russian Empire. Several rural communities made up the parish. Rural societies were governed by village assemblies, which elected village elders. Until 1904, they were collectively responsible for the payment of taxes by their members.

            https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Сельское_общество

            about the kulaks, there is Dahl's definition on this point that the kulak is a world-eater (again, at least look what it is), but the kulaks were different. would be 2 horses and was also listed for dispossession.
            1. Simargl
              Simargl 4 January 2021 07: 11
              0
              Quote: Bar1
              and whose will you be?
              Not Chinese.

              Quote: Bar1
              Until 1904, they were collectively responsible for the payment of taxes by their members.
              AND? I repeat: the peasants did not own land. And all these associations were dictated from above: from the same place from where the peasants were given land (in fact, for rent).

              Quote: Bar1
              Dahl that the fist is a world eater (again, at least look what it is), but the fists were different
              So the world eater, or different?

              Quote: Bar1
              Under the Soviet regime, those who were middle peasants, but became rich after the revolution and already had at least 2 horses and were also included in the lists for dispossession, began to be considered kulaks.
              Why did you get rich? Read at least what I wrote about them.
      2. lucul
        lucul 3 January 2021 12: 17
        12 th
        By and large, the Bolsheviks had no choice "what to do".

        If you want to get an instant return - here and now, without giving a damn about the millions of affected people (who look at those goyim), then it is. And the question could have been resolved in another way - by increasing the literacy of the peasants, and in a generation there would have been a return, but tsarism "slept through" this moment.
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 3 January 2021 12: 29
          +3
          Quote: lucul
          And the question could have been resolved in a different way - through increasing the literacy of the peasants, and in a generation there would be a return

          Early on Sunday morning, June 22, 1941, Nazi Germany and its allies unleashed a military blow of unprecedented force on the Soviet country.
          1. lucul
            lucul 3 January 2021 12: 38
            15 th
            Early on Sunday morning, June 22, 1941, Nazi Germany and its allies unleashed a military blow of unprecedented force on the Soviet country.

            And it is not necessary to put the cart in front of the horse - there would be no USSR, there would be no German attack in 1941.
            1. mat-vey
              mat-vey 3 January 2021 12: 43
              12
              Quote: lucul
              And it is not necessary to put the cart in front of the horse - there would be no USSR, there would be no German attack in 1941.

              Aha - if there was no head, then there would be no mental disorders.
            2. paul3390
              paul3390 3 January 2021 13: 48
              +7
              Well, yes - and WWI was due to the USSR, and in 1939 the Second World War - also because of us started .. Did you hangover or something bad?
              1. lucul
                lucul 3 January 2021 13: 57
                -8
                Well, yes - and PMV because of the USSR was

                It is rather to you
                Did you get hungover unsuccessfully?
                1. paul3390
                  paul3390 3 January 2021 14: 01
                  +7
                  Well, are you delirious? Do you seriously think that World War II began because of the existence of the USSR? And nothing that for a start Aloizievich West kicked a little? Or do you think that he would not dare to encroach on the Romanov empire?
                2. lucul
                  lucul 3 January 2021 14: 04
                  -9
                  Well, are you delirious? Do you seriously think that World War II began because of the existence of the USSR?

                  This is a rush job.
                  Don't pass your thoughts off as mine.
                  In the original
                  there would be no USSR, there would be no German attack in 1941

                  And you
                  Do you seriously think that World War II began because of the existence of the USSR?
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 January 2021 16: 19
            +5
            Quote: lucul
            Germany and its allies unleashed a military blow of unprecedented force on the Soviet country.

            And it is not necessary to put the cart in front of the horse - there would be no USSR, there would be

            Igor, the war started in any case. Germany lost the war for sales markets, she needed living space and they could only take it in the East.
          3. Simargl
            Simargl 3 January 2021 20: 48
            +5
            Quote: lucul
            there would be no USSR, there would be no German attack in 1941.
            Absolutely agree!
            There would be no shameful Brest peace, the Republic of Ingushetia would have disintegrated into a handful of colonies in the early 20s!
            Anpirator would have been hanged.
        2. kalibr
          3 January 2021 21: 56
          0
          Quote: mat-vey
          Early on Sunday morning, June 22, 1941, Nazi Germany and its allies unleashed a military blow of unprecedented force on the Soviet country.

          "9 armies from 150 German divisions will attack the Soviet border on June 22. Ramzai" Sorge's last encrypted message.
          1. Liam
            Liam 3 January 2021 22: 14
            +5
            Quote: kalibr
            Quote: mat-vey
            Early on Sunday morning, June 22, 1941, Nazi Germany and its allies unleashed a military blow of unprecedented force on the Soviet country.

            "9 armies from 150 German divisions will attack the Soviet border on June 22. Ramzai" Sorge's last encrypted message.

            Sorge did not send anything like this
            1. kalibr
              4 January 2021 07: 32
              +1
              You're right. The actual text was as follows: "They declared that Germany has 9 army corps, consisting of 150 divisions against the USSR. One army corps is under the command of the famous Reichenau. The strategic scheme of the attack on the Soviet Union will be taken from the experience of the war against Poland." But the myth was created ...
              1. vladcub
                vladcub 4 January 2021 18: 08
                +3
                An army corps and a field army are different things. I wonder who this myth is and why "gave birth"?
              2. kalibr
                4 January 2021 18: 31
                -2
                Quote: vladcub
                An army corps and a field army are different things. I wonder who this myth is and why "gave birth"?

                Svyatoslav! I even found a poem in my notebook in 1983 with the text of this "radiogram" !!!
        3. mat-vey
          mat-vey 9 January 2021 05: 20
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          Sorge's last cipher.

          And how did this affect the kulaks?
  • Undecim
    Undecim 3 January 2021 10: 23
    +5
    was tidy and had the best impact
    Can you provide data on the yield (maximum return)?
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 3 January 2021 10: 49
      -2
      Quote: Undecim
      was tidy and had the best impact
      Can you provide data on the yield (maximum return)?


      Journey of the Persian Embassy From Astrakhan to Arkhangelsk Juan the Persian 1600.
      Towards the end of these months we arrived in a very large city belonging to the Moscow Tsar. It is called Kazan and has over 50 Christian residents. There are many churches in the city, and there are so many large bells in them that on the eve of the holiday there is no way to fall asleep.

      When we arrived at this city, we were met by so many people who looked at us with surprise that we could hardly drive through the streets and squares. We stayed in the city for 10 days, and we were treated so abundantly that the food had to be thrown out the window. There are no poor people in this country, because food is so cheap that people go out on the road to look for someone to give it to. But there is a lack of good wines, for there is no other wine other than that made from wheat and barley; it is extremely strong, so that drinkers quickly become intoxicated, and therefore it is established by law that officials do not carry weapons, since murders often occur among them.

      https://scisne.net/a-1448
      There are no poor people in this country, not like in the Russian Empire.
      As for Kazan, I think I understood the etymology of Kazan, the Caspian is the Cossacks, i.e.
      -Kazan -Kazach city
      -Caspian-Cossack Sea.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 3 January 2021 12: 06
        +6
        I asked you a specific question, and you told me a tale about Juan the Persian, who saw lions and tigers on the banks of the Volga during his journey. Or is it normal for Tartary to have lions and tigers on the banks of the Volga?
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 3 January 2021 12: 30
          -1
          if only Juan the Persian, and then in fact other travelers and ambassadors noted the prosperity and prosperity of the Russian people.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 3 January 2021 13: 05
            0
            And the lions on the Volga banks?
            I asked a question about the yield.
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 3 January 2021 13: 26
              -5
              European lion lived in Hungary
              https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Европейский_лев
              Asiatic lion lived in Russia and Ukraine
              https://yandex.ru/turbo/web-zoopark.ru/s/mlekopitayushchie/lev_aziatskij.html

              about the yield in Russia, try to connect the yield and the abundance of food in those days, in theory it should work out
              1. Undecim
                Undecim 3 January 2021 13: 55
                +2
                Yes, the yield was so high that the inhabitants of Tartaria served as a welcome prey for the European lion, who wandered on the banks of the Volga to hunt fat, lazy Tartarians from Hungary.
              2. Bar1
                Bar1 3 January 2021 13: 59
                -2
                as you can see, Juan the Persian had Tartarians, like lions too. By the way, the etymology of the word
                -lev-l / roar
                those. lion is quite a Russian word.
              3. Undecim
                Undecim 3 January 2021 14: 03
                +1
                No not like this. Lev, this is from a Russian stable. Leo is a barn dweller. The inhabitants of Tartary, apparently, kept lions in a barn, and pigs in the forest.
              4. Bar1
                Bar1 3 January 2021 14: 06
                -2
                you do not succeed, lions have never lived in barns, but they roared with full mouth. Look at the metrogoldenmaer there is a lion, it just roars.
              5. Undecim
                Undecim 3 January 2021 14: 08
                +2
                They lived in Tartary. Such a coincidence cannot be accidental.
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 January 2021 16: 12
          +3
          Quote: Undecim
          Yes, the yield was so high that the inhabitants of Tartaria served as a welcome prey for the European lion, who wandered on the banks of the Volga to hunt fat, lazy Tartarians from Hungary.

          The last lion in Russian history bit the "saddle" of Vladimir Monomakh. What he reflected in his will !!! laughing

          Now VikNik is serious, you will not get anything from your opponents except mantras, which must be taken at their word!
          You were told "TARTARIA", you must fall on your knees and shout I believe three times!
          And so funny "Leo is quite a Russian word" !!!
          I want to please with even more funny and funny things! Today my wife and I walked through the woods in the Olenyi Ruchyi nature park (Sverdlovsk region) and came across a remake of the Old Russian pagan temple!


          Moreover, they came across successfully, the local guide rubbed the schoolchildren about the fact that the pantheon of pagan truly Russian gods was restored on the place where the ancient Slavs worshiped in ancient times. They fought back against mammoths, lions and woolly rhinos. Then they acquired statehood and created Tartary. Then I could not resist and asked the guide if his name was Timur? Alas no, but once again, alas, he is not alone !!! So the cradle of Ancient Russia is the Middle Urals !!! Falkhistorians rule !!!
          This is how we live, Perun, in the Urals! The great Tartarian god of thunder !!!
          Good day and Happy New Year!
        3. Undecim
          Undecim 3 January 2021 16: 42
          0

          We have several of them on Khortytsya.
          Moreover, this, for some reason, attracts women very much, which causes indignation among the pagans gathering there.
        4. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 January 2021 17: 12
          +2
          Okay, from Pripyat to Khortitsa, at least within 1000 kilometers. Here, and sklavins and antes can somehow be pulled by the ears. But where is the Urals, where is Khortitsa!

          By the way, do your "Tartarians" slaughter roosters on the path? Or cost human casualties !!! laughing
        5. Undecim
          Undecim 3 January 2021 19: 02
          +4
          I haven’t heard about human sacrifices, and the cocks are not cut, judging by the minuses, somewhere nearby.
        6. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 January 2021 19: 49
          +4
          Quote: Undecim
          I haven’t heard about human sacrifices, and the cocks are not cut, judging by the minuses, somewhere nearby.

          In three days of discussion of Vyacheslav Olegovich's articles, I lost two thousand points! laughing
          And he stepped on a corn both communists and monarchists !!!
          The civil war and the peasant question, the most ungrateful topics, and I also kicked the neo-pagans together with fake historians, so it's not surprising that you were attacked for dialogue with me!
          Good evening, Viktor Nikolaevich!
        7. Undecim
          Undecim 3 January 2021 20: 01
          +6
          I'm not minus for the dialogue, I have some kind of personal haters. And after he became the "laureate of the competition", their number increased. And I also decided to talk with the Tatra, and there these minusers, like on the Beetle of fleas.
        8. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 January 2021 21: 19
          +2
          Yes, spit on them, a little more and the second year will go like you under your nickname! Almost a record !!!
          So who, who you minus from the hamster, that (I will not continue further - they will be banned) !!!
          With all due respect!
          P.s. You were one of the strongest opponents for me, with whom it was always interesting to conduct a dialogue and this has always been for 6 or 7 years!
          As one of our acquaintances says "the walking encyclopedia"! What's True is True!
        9. vladcub
          vladcub 4 January 2021 14: 08
          +2
          About: "I agree with the walking encyclopedia" Viktor Nikolaevich knows everything or almost everything
    2. vladcub
      vladcub 4 January 2021 18: 20
      +3
      Namesake, things are going well: at least 200 minuses from the communists, and from Fomenkovets and eternal damnation.
    3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 4 January 2021 19: 29
      +2
      Break through, not the first time! good
    4. vladcub
      vladcub 4 January 2021 19: 39
      +3
      If the communists Ali monarchists will pour out minuses, this is a passing phenomenon: they very rarely find mutual understanding.
      If the Fomenkovites are with eternal damnation. Pull here: I know places where the Tartarians were not
  • andrew42
    andrew42 13 January 2021 12: 49
    0
    Laughter laughter. In Perm, in the local history museum (the creatives were divided into sections scattered around the city) in the "House of the Merchant Meshkov" there is a reconstruction of an inhabitant of the Kama valley from the period of about 1 BC, - an ordinary Russian man with a beard, in a canvas shirt , with a bow and an ax. And this was by no means "fans of Tartaria" sculpted, but quite academic people from the OI. It was already in the middle of the 1st thousand that the Komi "evacuated" here and the Bulgarians nailed (Perm Tatars), and the Kama region became Kuzhmangort (the valley of burnt villages). The climate drove people around the world, and still drives them. Of course, Khortytsya is a strong place, but it is far from the "navel of the Slavic earth", and even less a cradle. Well, about Kiev, mother, then she is a mother, but Novgorod is Father, and Smolensk is brother-in-law.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 13 January 2021 14: 11
    +2
    And where did you see about the navel of the earth?
  • vladcub
    vladcub 4 January 2021 18: 10
    +1
    Slyly noticed
  • andrew42
    andrew42 13 January 2021 12: 36
    0
    In the instruction of Vladimir Monomakh to his sons, there is a mention of how the "fierce beast" knocked him down with his horse, and almost tore him to pieces. I doubt that the prince-polyglot at the end of his years got confused about how to get around the mention of a ber / bear / coma or a hardened wolf. There are many indirect references to the lions of the forest-steppe zone. And the fauna in general tends to be exterminated very quickly, for half a century any predatory species can be destroyed at the root in a decent habitat, especially a semi-endemic and relict species. In those days, no one bothered to "save leopards". So the Arabs could not lie, and most likely they did not lie.
  • Simargl
    Simargl 3 January 2021 20: 52
    +3
    Quote: Bar1
    Inheritance - most of this land was always passed on to the eldest son, daughters were supposed to have a dowry when they got married, and the younger ones ALWAYS were that always replenished part of the population of cities, when it was possible to go to out-of-town trades, to cities, to create artels themselves and be hired as workers and soldiers .so it was ALWAYS in Russia
    These are your wet dreams. The peasants NEVER had their own land. Only the Cossacks. But they served for it. And they came to serve with equipment (study Quiet Don, at least ... partially).
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 3 January 2021 21: 47
      -2
      Quote: Simargl
      These are your wet dreams. The peasants NEVER had their own land. Only the Cossacks. But they served for it. And they came to serve with equipment (study Quiet Don, at least ... partially).

      the past civilization is a society of ORDER. But it was not based on commodity-money relations. The relations between people were generic, this is when your relatives work together with you peacefully and share the products of their labor and children in such a society are similar to each other and relatives too, which can only be achieved if there is a firm order in the community. This is how the Russian people turned out, which has the most beautiful women and the most skillful and strong men.
      The past civilization is the pyramids, huge temples, aqueducts were built of course by this people and not by any "Egyptians or Mesopotamians / Hittites, nor fictitious Greeks and Romans" but the Pelasgians and Etruscans, who are our Russian ancestors.
      1. didra
        didra 4 January 2021 05: 56
        +1
        Please don’t heap everything together!
      2. Simargl
        Simargl 4 January 2021 07: 18
        +3
        Quote: Bar1
        Pelasgians and Etruscans, who are our Russian ancestors.
        So they would say that you have a crazy brain!
  • lucul
    lucul 3 January 2021 12: 13
    -8
    Well, why do idiocy do something? Collectivization is a completely justified process. We needed workers for industrialization, but where can we find them in an agrarian country ?! That's right, only from the peasants. So everything was done correctly and not at such a feeble pace as now.

    All this could be solved by raising workers' wages, no? )))
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 3 January 2021 12: 38
      +1
      INFLATION
      Feminine

      Excessive increase in the number of paper money circulating in the country, causing their depreciation
      1. lucul
        lucul 3 January 2021 12: 44
        -6
        Excessive increase in the number of paper money circulating in the country, causing their depreciation

        What are you? Doesn't the lending interest increase the amount of unsecured money? )))
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 3 January 2021 12: 47
          +2
          Doesn't an unsecured wage spur inflation? Or goods under
          Quote: lucul
          All this could be solved by raising workers' wages, no? )))

          Would the Martians have thrown up?
          1. lucul
            lucul 3 January 2021 12: 49
            -8
            Doesn't a wage secured by anything spur inflation?

            So how, in Japan, an unsecured wage has spurred inflation? Or in the USA? )))
            1. mat-vey
              mat-vey 3 January 2021 12: 52
              +2
              Quote: lucul
              Well, how, in Japan, her secured salary greatly spurred inflation

              and not much "secured"?
              1. lucul
                lucul 3 January 2021 12: 52
                -8
                and not much "secured"?

                Yes, exactly the amount of the national debt)))
                1. mat-vey
                  mat-vey 3 January 2021 12: 59
                  +1
                  And where would the USSR borrow it? And most importantly, who would sell it to him in debt.
                2. lucul
                  lucul 3 January 2021 13: 14
                  -3
                  And where would the USSR borrow it? And most importantly, who would sell it to him in debt.

                  You know, quite often I came across a picture when the company was just on its last legs, everything, not a tenant. But a new person came to the head, and the enterprise was transformed just before our eyes, and became quite profitable.
                  So don't think that the communists had the only correct decisions - there were enough options for action.
                3. mat-vey
                  mat-vey 3 January 2021 13: 16
                  +1
                  Quote: lucul
                  So don't think that the communists had the only correct decisions - there were enough options for action.

                  Well, for example?
                4. lucul
                  lucul 3 January 2021 13: 22
                  10 th
                  Well, for example?

                  I'll explain. When a criminal wants to rob a bank, he does not publicly declare it: on such and such a date and in such and such a time, I will rob a bank. And the communists openly shouted - we will overthrow your system, we will light the fire of the instant revolution (and the Russians will be firewood in that fire). Who then wants to deal with them?
                  There are color revolutions pouring out of a cornucopia, and no one shouts about it in advance.
                5. mat-vey
                  mat-vey 3 January 2021 13: 25
                  +5
                  Quote: lucul
                  ... When a criminal wants to rob a bank, he does not publicly announce it.

                  And the Bolsheviks robbed you badly? Are you not a descendant of Putilov?
                6. zenion
                  zenion 4 January 2021 15: 50
                  +3
                  They are already robbing and everyone pretends that it should be so. When the US attacked Mexico, Mark Twain described this event as: robbing a neighbor for his own benefit. What is the name of what is now in Russia?
                7. mat-vey
                  mat-vey 9 January 2021 05: 22
                  0
                  Quote: zenion
                  They are already robbing and everyone pretends that it should be so.

                  That again the Bolsheviks reached out?
  • zenion
    zenion 3 January 2021 16: 25
    +2
    lucul (Vitaly). You probably haven't read some of the tantrums. Collective farmers and villagers were not allowed to leave the village without permission. Those who left were shot, but in absentia. He lived for some time in the Urals in Sverdlovsk. There were no collective farms in such terms; in every village there was some kind of enterprise that worked for some kind of factory. They trained personnel there. But this is after the giants' factories were built. Nobody infringed on anyone, wherever you want and work there. Labor books began to be issued after the thirty-ninth year due to the fact that everyone studied in the villages, and there was a profession in the labor book. Then there was no TU FZU that would come out with a diploma that you are a milling machine operator, or trained in another profession. Tolstov said that despite the work books, specialists flew from factory to factory. The factories lured away from other smart specialists. Then they began to lure with apartments, get married and so on. Then the army was drafted at the age of 25. Already a family, but a specialist and a family have a roof over their heads. A man serves, and it is as if a part of the money he earned goes to her. Miracles were happening while order was restored.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 January 2021 17: 44
      +3
      Quote: zenion
      He lived for some time in the Urals in Sverdlovsk. There were no collective farms in such terms; in every village there was some kind of enterprise that worked for some kind of factory.

      Specificity of mining plants. As such, there were no peasants in the Middle Urals. More precisely, they were in Krasnoufimsky and Kamensk-Uralsky regions. The rest of the peasants were assigned to specific factories, de facto workers who were engaged in piecework on an artel contract.
      So, according to the metric, a peasant could work as a coal burner, miner, rafter, or sledging foreman at a factory. In fact, all were de jure - peasants. Even in business correspondence at the beginning of the century, the word worker or foreman was not often used.
      For example, "Dam master of the Nizhneserginsky iron-making plant, Zhalobin Ivan Efstafievich - a peasant." At the same time, the ego father was the manager of this plant, the grandfather was a blacksmith in the foundry, like other ancestors since 1743. But in the metrics - a peasant. The worker is only in everyday life.
      But it was hard to call this superstat a purely working class either, "the factory workers lived from the gardens and mows." Even in Soviet times, in the 80s, my grandfather and grandmother kept a cow for meat and used the family mowing (Eremeevskaya Elan '), though truncated to 3 times per day. However, like the rest of the neighbors. In the 90s, the livestock of cattle from private traders is about 2500 heads, and this is for 17000 of the city's population!
      Even today, the share of subsistence products in my family's diet reaches 75%.
      Well, somewhere like that.
  • Simargl
    Simargl 4 January 2021 07: 20
    +1
    Quote: lucul
    could be solved by raising workers' wages, not?
    You missed one important detail: "find workers". And by raising wages, issues are resolved when there are workers.
  • andrew42
    andrew42 13 January 2021 12: 28
    -1
    Justified is not the right word. Forced in the moment! And the process of collectivization itself, especially UNIVERSAL collectivization, is not natural, and therefore not justified. It must be admitted that the whole series of somersaults of the Soviet power in relation to the population engaged in agriculture (there were quite good periods, I must admit, at least 1975-1985) - led to the destruction of the base of replenishment of the Russian ethnos as such. But this is no longer an economic level, and even not a political one, but a higher one.
  • strannik1985
    strannik1985 3 January 2021 08: 25
    13
    What was all this for?

    1928/29 state procurement / procurement of 10,8 million tons of grain
    1938/39 (still conditionally peaceful) state procurement / procurement 29,1 million tons
    In 1940/1941 (millions of men were drafted into the army, similarly the horse train and the car) - 41,6 million tons
    Everything is simple
  • SARANCHA1976
    SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 11: 34
    12
    that the Bolsheviks is the ruin and destruction of the Russian peasant society .. but I thought that the collective economy is much more effective than the individual. I'm not a distant person
    1. zenion
      zenion 3 January 2021 16: 28
      +4
      But now those who did not like collective farms now love them. Just like with East Germany, how they feel sorry for their country, words cannot convey.
      1. SARANCHA1976
        SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 18: 09
        0
        If you mean me, then you are wrong
      2. Oprichnik
        Oprichnik 4 January 2021 21: 22
        0
        I was in the former GDR in 2010 and was surprised by the huge fields with even rows of crops. The inhabitants of the Federal Republic of Germany, accompanying us, explained with gnashing teeth that the cooperatives of the former German Democratic Republic did not basically disintegrate, but rather successfully compete with the farming (Bauer) farms of the Federal Republic of Germany and even with the agricultural firms of the Federal Republic of Germany. I have not seen such fields in western Germany either in size or in the quality of processing.
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 January 2021 17: 49
      +2
      Quote: SARANCHA1976
      that the Bolsheviks is the ruin and destruction of the Russian peasant society .. but I thought that the collective economy is much more effective than the individual. I'm not a distant person

      You are absolutely right, but with the interest of business entities.
    3. Simargl
      Simargl 4 January 2021 19: 46
      0
      Quote: SARANCHA1976
      I'm not a distant person
      And also, if you believe that the peasant was an individual farmer, you are wildly mistaken! They gathered in droves, on their own initiative, in collective farms everywhere.
      ... or am I confusing something? wassat
  • depressant
    depressant 3 January 2021 13: 37
    +6
    So where did Stalin get the funds for industrialization?

    It is known that by 1930 the USSR was bankrupt. There were only 150 tons of gold left in the vault, the country got loans from Germany and American bankers, there was nothing to give, and all the more there was nothing to industrialize the USSR. The hope to replenish the country's gold reserves by selling bread to other countries did not come true, as the world was hit by an economic crisis, the price of bread fell.
    And then we went in three ways:
    seizure of gold from counter-revolutionary elements
    Torgsin
    Increase in industrial production of precious metals.

    The confiscation was handled by a special economic department of the OGPU. Currency was seized from the hiding places of speculators and former nobles were taken hostage, forcing their families in the USSR or relatives who emigrated abroad to give up their savings or send the so-called "salvation money" - a ransom in gold and jewelry.

    By 1934, the annual contribution of OGPU employees to the state treasury amounted to 15 million rubles, which is equivalent to 12 tons of gold.
    But before that, back in 1930, Torgsin began to work - a system of foreign exchange stores, previously available only to foreigners. In Torgsin, foreigners could buy any delicacies and goods for currency. Soviet citizens were allowed to purchase gold and silver in Torgsin.
    For six years of work, Torgsin contributed 222 tons of pure gold or 287 million rubles to the treasury. These funds were used to purchase industrial equipment for Magnitka, DneproGES and giant factories.

    In addition, gold mining was actively established, which in 1927 brought the state only 20 tons of gold per year. In the USSR, Soyuzzoloto JSC was created, which was headed by an old Bolshevik, engineer Alexander Pavlovich Serebrovsky. He immediately left for the United States to learn from experience, buy equipment and hire specialists. And already in 1930, at the Irkutsk Heavy Machine Building Plant, the production of its own equipment for the gold mining industry was launched, and in the meantime, gold deposits were actively searched for throughout the country by geological parties. Private gold mining was completely liquidated, and in 1931 the Dalstroy trust was organized for the extraction of precious metals in Kolyma and Indigirka. Prisoners mined gold. For nine pre-war years "Dalstroy" mined 400 tons of gold for the treasury. The Tsvetmetzoloto Trust produced another 800 tons.
    By the beginning of the Second World War, the USSR ranked second in gold mining - after South Africa. Mining did not stop for a single day during the war, but gold was now used to pay for goods received under Lend-Lease.
    After the war, the gold reserves of the USSR by 1953 increased to 2804 tons.
    1. Fitter65
      Fitter65 3 January 2021 14: 48
      +1
      Quote: depressant
      seizure of gold from counter-revolutionary elements
      Torgsin
      Withdrawal is closer to weaning ...
      Torgsin (All-Union Association for Trade with Foreigners) is a Soviet organization that served guests from abroad and Soviet citizens who have "currency values" (gold, silver, precious stones, antiques, cash currency) that they could exchange for food groceries or other consumer goods. Created July 1930, liquidated January 1936.
      It turns out that it was confiscated, not everything was confiscated.
      Torgsin did not have the right to accept church values, since they were considered by law to be the property of the state and were subject to confiscation
      If you wish, you can distort any fact in your favor ...
      1. depressant
        depressant 3 January 2021 15: 27
        10
        Colleague Fitter65, while we are here "useful" arguing about the shades of words that characterize the past century, from 0 o'clock New Year's, a law signed on December 31, 2020, allowing the privatization of national parks and sites within municipalities, that is, park zones, quietly came into effect. ..
        That's all. So what I warned about has come true - the land reform began in an undeclared form, excluding natural reserves from national use. Now there will be estates, logging sites, Chinese, and other delights of the landlord's method of exploiting natural resources. And this is just the beginning. Russia no longer belongs to the population. To characterize the shamelessness that is taking place before our eyes, there are no words other than "50 shades of gray".
        And then the privatization of the arable fund will proceed, which was never given to farmers, preferring to be overgrown with open woodlands. And it is not known who will be those who will and are already appropriating our land - homegrown or foreigners.
        Mushrooms, you say berries? Well, well! .. Let's argue about the "bad" actions of Stalin. Taking advantage of the fact that he cannot answer.
        1. Fitter65
          Fitter65 3 January 2021 16: 14
          0
          Quote: depressant
          from 0 o'clock on the New Year, a law signed on December 31, 2020, allowing the privatization of national parks and plots inside municipalities, that is, park zones, quietly entered into force ...

          Here you have long lagged behind the news, as soon as the "Far Eastern Hectare" program began - one lady was allocated a plot practically in the center of the city of Sovetskaya Gavan, there were so many interesting things about this. and everything is within the law ...
          The world's first icebreaker yacht La Datcha was handed over to the customer - the family of billionaire Oleg Tinkov.
          I don’t have any more questions about the last century ...
          1. depressant
            depressant 3 January 2021 16: 51
            +7
            Colleague, why did you lag behind? I remember this story about the allocation of Far Eastern hectares in the form of parks within cities. But then a big fuss was raised, since there was no law that would permit disgrace, and, apparently, the wrong people were seized as planned. Now all the "ones" will start grabbing the parks. They silently waited for the law, building in protected areas around reservoirs, snapping up hundreds - not hectares, but square kilometers of taiga, huge areas with abandoned villages, forming active communities among themselves with the tacit consent of local authorities. Scientist Konstantin Grigorichev characterized this phenomenon as "life outside the state." And these squatters have either already fallen under the permissive law, or - I have no doubt at all! --- will be available soon. I will not go to capture the taiga or at least part of the park area. And you won't go. We will simply be arrested. The unjustly rich take over. And our government, not knowing how to resist the lawlessness, and, apparently, not wanting to do this because of a personal interest in dividing the territory, signs legislative papers secretly from the population. Boggles the mind - national parks! Apparently, Marat Khusnullin will build palaces for the oligarchs. Before the last New Year, the laws passed this year were already known. But they concerned the population and were punitive.
      2. SARANCHA1976
        SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 18: 14
        0
        You have laid it out very well here, but can you tell me how it should have been?
  • Glory1974
    Glory1974 3 January 2021 14: 59
    +4
    Under Soviet power, all the peasants received land, and the percentage of the well-to-do population — kulaks and middle peasants — increased.
    But the Bolshevik state did not need landowners or landowners.

    Really. The Soviet government gave land to the peasants. But as a result of economic activity, 80% of the farms became poor as under the tsar, 20% of the farms became medium and prosperous. this is what became the impetus for collectivization. Otherwise, labor productivity cannot be raised by the formation of large farms. The government is going the same way now: it forms large agricultural enterprises, but not socialist, but capitalist
  • zenion
    zenion 3 January 2021 16: 16
    +3
    My mother told me that people were starving, and moonshine flowed in rivers in the villages, and in the regional center it was sold in lakes. What this moonshine did with the peasants in the village is scary to think. Murders of wives and children, constant stabbing fights. Many still had weapons and they didn't rust. The main slogan in Ukraine was - Faster the war, but surrender as a prisoner. During the war, the Germans will come to us and we will live as under the old regime. But when they began to be indignant that everything was taken from the courtyards, they were indignant. Onyskov said - they weren't spoiling for us, they were up to the mark and the fire was ready. Then the Selyans pulled them in to the riches and scammers into the water. The funeral was not allowed. Then they began to think, not only with their asses, but also with their heads. From village to village and the most important thing is to save cattle and them in the forests. The Germans come, and the villagers meet with outstretched hands. The Germans shouted - Schwein, Schwein.
  • zenion
    zenion 3 January 2021 15: 38
    +8
    Khrushchev in about 1958 spoke and said that cultural workers, teachers and doctors, engineers and so on, should not have a household. They should think about people, not about their farm and garden. And there was a massive slaughter of cattle. In this way. It was also possible to hand over the cattle to the "Zagotskot" and get money by live weight. Khrushchev said that the state would take care of the food and dug up the virgin lands. He ditched millions of hectares of land on which cattle were grazed. If earlier sheep meat cost a penny, and it was not bought very much, then there was nothing to buy. And the grain after the first harvest rotted under the sheds without getting into storage, which was not there. And the Soviet kulaks. Spoiled everything. They burned fuel for the tractors and shot at the chairmen and other workers, like accountants, bookkeepers and agronomists. They shot at my mother, who finished agronomic courses. She was saved by an excellent doctor, a Jew who went through two wars, the First World War and the civil one. He pulled a bullet out of his stomach, but the chairman was unlucky, they killed him.
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 15: 48
      +2
      Quote: zenion
      Khrushchev said that the state would take care of the food and dug up the virgin lands.

      This is not true. Khrushch decided to catch up with America in meat production.
      We caught up with America
      In milk production
      And they didn’t catch up with meat,
      A bull's cock broke ...
      Larionov shot himself ...
  • Svarog
    Svarog 3 January 2021 17: 58
    +6
    to the USSR it was illegal (and illegal according to the laws of that time!) 10 people were repressed

    Here is a figure .. transcendental, of course, thanks to these 10 free labor force, the economy of the USSR rose so much .. well, what nonsense ..
    Well, who's good at math? Let's divide and find out how much grain was produced per capita. I got 37 pounds. Now let's compare: in 1913, 30,3 poods of grain per capita were harvested in Russia. In the USA - 64,3 poods

    The author .. and you are aware that there was no chemical industry in the Republic of Ingushetia at all, and a lot of factors affect the yield .. and not the desire / or desire of the tractor driver .. The factors that contribute to high yields include weather, soil, fertilizers ...
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 4 January 2021 20: 33
      0
      Quote: Svarog
      it was thanks to these 10 free labor that the economy of the USSR rose so much .. what nonsense ..
      Of course he was wrong! 100 million people!

      Quote: Svarog
      Author .. and you are aware that there was no chemical industry in RI at all
      That was Mendeleev.
      1. Svarog
        Svarog 4 January 2021 21: 27
        +2
        Of course he was wrong! 100 million people!

        We are talking about the repressed .. Do you think that there were 100 ml.? wassat
        back in Soviet times, he proved it was illegal (and illegal under the laws of that time!) repressed 10 householder man,

        That was Mendeleev.

        Until 1916, one might say there was no chemical industry .. They began to actively build factories, only after Germany refused to supply raw materials .. Everything is very similar with today .. is not it?
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 4 January 2021 21: 50
          +1
          Quote: Svarog
          Do you think there were 100 ml.?
          If you believe the liberals - we were all repressed with a shovel. Some are more, some are less.

          Quote: Svarog
          Until 1916, there was no chemical industry.
          By and large - here the word "chemical" is superfluous.
          Quote: Svarog
          Everything is very similar to today .. isn't it?
          Are you talking about the top and bottom?
        2. hjvtp1966
          hjvtp1966 6 January 2021 23: 07
          0
          Yah?! and what the Germans were hounded in the imperialist? And the powder factories in Shostka and Kazan? There was something like that. Although, of course, one cannot compare with the same Germans.
    2. kalibr
      6 January 2021 18: 14
      0
      Quote: Svarog
      Author .. and you are aware that there was no chemical industry in RI at all

      Have you read Barsukov's book on the history of Russian artillery in 3 volumes?
  • Far B
    Far B 3 January 2021 04: 47
    18
    The RGVA calculated: 60% of the repressed are peasants exiled to the GULAG as a cheap slave force
    To do so much in one phrase - how's that?
    Firstly, they were not exiled to the Gulag - they were sent there to serve their sentence (they were imprisoned). The exiled settlers were sent to completely different places, with a completely different regime.
    Secondly: the prisoners (and not exiles, all the more so) were not a slave force - their work was paid, and quite well, given the initial circumstances. The former prisoners were released with normal money. For shock work it was possible to knock off the term twice or more - to go nuts slaves, yeah.
    Well, and for a snack: who in the RGVA (or is it the author's interpretation) is understood by the repressed? All convicts, or convicts only for political reasons? My grandfather, a cousin on a drunken business, turned the truck with milkmaids over and in 37 went to "trample the zone", where he disappeared - he was repressed, or not? Also a peasant, if that. Also, his aunt was eager to rehabilitate everything in the late 80s - early 90s, but Dad showed her a fist once, and she calmed down. Otherwise, he could also have gone as a victim of repression.
    In short, again Shpakovsky went on the warpath with the USSR.
    1. apro
      apro 3 January 2021 04: 53
      13
      Quote: Dalny V
      In short, again Shpakovsky went on the warpath with the USSR

      So he did not leave her ...
    2. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 3 January 2021 05: 14
      -9
      The former prisoners were released with normal money.

      Feet forward or what?
      For shock work it was possible to knock off the term twice or more - to go nuts slaves, yeah.

      I don’t remember such ... how many I read about prisoners in those days ... give an example, please. hi
      Shpakovsky is not on the warpath, but on the path of history, and uses documents and historical sources (my respect for that) ... I would like to see more documents from classified archives.
      And any suppression of dissent in relation to the USSR is no less pernicious than the subversive activity against the USSR itself ... then it will be impossible to conduct an objective analysis of the mistakes committed in the USSR by politicians ... and then we will again and again step on the old rake in our time.
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 3 January 2021 05: 29
        +3
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        Shpakovsky is not on the warpath, but on the path of history

        On the "path of history" Zemskov V.N. was ... and was an honest and objective person.
        1. Lech from Android.
          Lech from Android. 3 January 2021 05: 36
          -6
          On the "path of history" Zemskov V.N. was ... and was an honest and objective person.

          Do not dispute smile each of his swamps sees what he wants. hi
          For me, Vyacheslav Shpakovsky is doing an important thing, developing readers' interest in the history of our state and the country as a whole ... he does not keep silent, but expresses his thoughts, since he himself understands them.
          Inevitably, you study the documents and sources indicated by him to get to the bottom of the truth. hi
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 3 January 2021 05: 46
            +8
            Quote: Lech from Android.
            each of his swamps sees what he wants.

            Unlike Shpakovsky, Zemskov actually studied the archives and I repeat once again - he was an honest man.
            1. Lech from Android.
              Lech from Android. 3 January 2021 05: 50
              -4
              Unlike Shpakovsky, Zemskov actually studied the archives and I repeat once again - he was an honest man
              Once again, I do not dispute, you know better ... I personally do not know Zemskov ... but I read Shpakovsky's articles and therefore said in his comment above
              I would like to see more documents from classified archives.
              hi
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 3 January 2021 06: 02
                +5
                Quote: Lech from Android.
                I personally do not know Zemskov

                Found something to be proud of ...
                In 1989 he became a member of the commission for determining the population losses of the Department of History of the USSR Academy of Sciences, headed by a corresponding member of the USSR Academy of Sciences Yu. A. Polyakov. The commission got access to the statistical reports of the OGPU-NKVD-MVD-MGB, stored in the Central State Archives of the October Revolution (TsGAOR of the USSR and the Central State Archives of the RSFSR in 1992 were combined into the State Archives of the Russian Federation).
                He was the discoverer of previously closed archival funds for scientists on the history of political repression in the USSR. Thanks to the works of V.N. Zemskov, the public, which until then mainly drew information about the repressions in the USSR from journalism, had the opportunity to get acquainted with a scientific point of view on the nature and extent of repression.
                1. Lech from Android.
                  Lech from Android. 3 January 2021 06: 56
                  +5
                  Found something to be proud of ...

                  I'm not proud of this, dear ... it's just that I was not lucky in my life to meet him ... even though you won't blame me. smile

                  The commission got access to the statistical reports of the OGPU-NKVD-MVD-MGB, stored in the Central State Archives of the October Revolution (TsGAOR of the USSR and the Central State Archives of the RSFSR in 1992 were combined into the State Archives of the Russian Federation).

                  For a long time it was necessary to declassify these archives ... then the liberals would have less opportunity to lie about the billions of babies eaten by Stalin.
                  1. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 3 January 2021 06: 58
                    +1
                    Quote: Lech from Android.
                    I'm not proud of this, dear ... it's just that I was not lucky in my life to meet him ... even though you won't blame me.

                    Maybe it was enough to get acquainted with the works? If so you are worried about history?
                    1. Lech from Android.
                      Lech from Android. 3 January 2021 07: 15
                      +1
                      Maybe it was enough to get acquainted with the works? If so you are worried about history?
                      I will get acquainted ... you interested me in his biography. hi
                      1. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 3 January 2021 07: 24
                        +3
                        Here something else is not clear - such enthusiasm (no kidding), but with the world-renowned luminary "they are not familiar." His goal was, initially to show "bloody Stalin" - but the man was honest and showed what really happened
                        https://scepsis.net/library/id_957.html
                      2. Lech from Android.
                        Lech from Android. 3 January 2021 08: 04
                        0
                        Here something else is not clear - such enthusiasm (no kidding), but with the world-renowned luminary "are not familiar"
                        No wonder ... I am constantly in the country ... there is no Internet ... I recently bought a smartphone instead of a cell phone smile now information has flowed like a river ... there is now an opportunity to swim in nature in the ocean of knowledge. Of course, I still have to learn and learn ... which is incredibly happy. hi
                      3. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 3 January 2021 08: 10
                        +2
                        Quote: Lech from Android.
                        No wonder ... I am constantly sitting in the country.

                        Zemskov, in fact, is the only scientist admitted to the real secret archives. He was lucky on the "wave". So no one is better acquainted with the true documents - that is why this issue from his works is usually started by whoever wants to join the topic. Only now he turned out to be a true non-biased scientist.
                2. Mordvin 3
                  Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 08: 27
                  -4
                  Quote: mat-vey
                  Maybe it was enough to get acquainted with the works? If so you are worried about history?

                  Kroll agency to help you.
                  1. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 3 January 2021 08: 34
                    +1
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    Kroll agency to help you.

                    And how will it help? Is the biography of Zemsky classified? I easily found it on the Internet, as well as his work.
                  2. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 08: 40
                    0
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    And how will it help? Is the biography of Zemsky classified? I easily found it on the Internet, as well as his work.

                    Yegorushka Gaidar classified these documents.
                  3. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 3 January 2021 08: 48
                    11
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    Yegorushka Gaidar classified these documents.

                    Well, Zemskov just had time to "glance" and even though he himself was in the position of "liberalism" in the flood of that time, but for the hundredth time I will repeat myself as an honest and objective scientist. Stalinist terror in the form in which it was described by previous generations of Western researchers never existed; the influence of terror on Soviet society in the Stalin years was not significant; there was no mass fear of repression in the 1930s in the Soviet Union; repression was limited in nature and did not affect the majority of the Soviet people; Soviet society rather supported the Stalinist regime than feared it; the Stalinist system provided the majority of people with the opportunity to advance upward and participate in public life.
                  4. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 08: 56
                    -1
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    the Stalinist system provided an opportunity for promotion and participation in public life.

                    My grandfather was in the penal battalion. Then Stalin sent him to the mine. He received 113 rubles, and did not complain ...
                  5. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 3 January 2021 09: 04
                    +8
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    My grandfather was in the penal battalion

                    Eyes of the wrong color?
                    And my great-grandfather died in a camp near Krasnoyarsk ... and? And the one who wrote the denunciation against him was shot himself - for denunciations, including what? And the grandfather's entire Yapi family was massacred, but Stalin did not give him an education and did not die of hunger. .So what?
                  6. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 09: 18
                    +4
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    ? And the grandfather's entire Yapi family was massacred, but Stalin did not let them die of hunger and gave an education .. and what?

                    And nothing ... My grandfather was educated and

                    Waning.
                  7. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 3 January 2021 09: 19
                    0
                    So you wanted to say something? No, well, seriously - what?
                  8. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 09: 21
                    +5
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    So you wanted to say something?

                    What was better in the USSR than yesterday.
                  9. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 3 January 2021 09: 23
                    +5
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    What was better in the USSR than yesterday.

                    In the USSR for 70 years it was different - depending on the environment.
                  10. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 09: 24
                    -3
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    In the USSR for 70 years it was different - depending on the environment.

                    Tell me.
                  11. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 3 January 2021 09: 27
                    +1
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    Tell me.

                    About the White Bull?
                  12. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 09: 29
                    -1
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    About the White Bull?

                    No, damn it, about a cow ...
                  13. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 3 January 2021 09: 32
                    0
                    Do you remember everything from 1922 well, with details?
                  14. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 09: 35
                    +1
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    Do you remember everything from 1922 well, with details?

                    But how! For example, Dzerzhinsky ... He pickled cucumbers ...
                  15. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 3 January 2021 09: 37
                    0
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    But how! For example, Dzerzhinsky ... He pickled cucumbers ...

                    What, those cucumbers were not enough to bite? So it is necessary to keep meat snacks in the house.
                  16. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 09: 45
                    +2
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    What, those cucumbers were not enough to bite?

                    Not ... Dzerzhdinsky with Trotsky and Lenin was boozing like that ... Well, Trotsky mocked: "What are you doing with cold hands?" He replied: "Salt cucumbers!"
                  17. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 3 January 2021 09: 47
                    +2
                    Well, here's something from my memory has already been erased - Dzerzhinsky's health did not allow to plump .. and there was no time ..
                  18. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 09: 54
                    -1
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    Dzerzhinsky's health did not allow to plump

                    He had about five wives ... yes
                  19. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 3 January 2021 09: 55
                    +3
                    And consumption ..
                  20. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 10: 00
                    -2
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    And consumption ..

                    I don't know about that ... wink
                  21. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 3 January 2021 10: 02
                    +1
                    What is it really bad with the memory?
                  22. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 10: 05
                    -2
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    What is it really bad with the memory?

                    My memory is fine. And you??
                  23. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 3 January 2021 10: 08
                    +3
                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    With my memory, everything is good. And you??

                    Well, for example, I remember about Dzerzhiskiy's tube from school ... And judging by your
                    Quote: mordvin xnumx
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    In the USSR for 70 years it was different - depending on the environment.

                    Tell me.

                    Over the years, the memory got tired ..
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 4 January 2021 14: 24
        +1
        I don’t know about others, but it seems to me - a mockery of Lenin.
  • kalibr
    12 January 2021 20: 46
    -1
    Quote: mat-vey
    And my great-grandfather died in a camp near Krasnoyarsk ... and? And the one who wrote the denunciation against him was shot himself - for denunciations, including what? And the grandfather's entire Yapi family was massacred, but Stalin did not give him an education and did not die of hunger. .So what?

    People of the servile rank are real dogs sometimes ... and further, how is it with the classic?
  • mat-vey
    mat-vey 15 January 2021 16: 12
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    People of the servile rank are real dogs sometimes ... and further, how is it with the classic?

    What is the classic about the intelligentsia going to quote?
  • kalibr
    15 January 2021 16: 49
    +1
    Quote: mat-vey
    What is the classic about the intelligentsia going to quote?

    Don't give a damn about the classics. They, like the Bible, can be turned this way and that. The same Lenin was not the last intellectual. I bought hats in Paris in the most expensive and fashionable stores ... Only today life is completely different. But slaves have always been slaves and will remain slaves ... Do you want to say that they are not now? Yes, as much as you like ... Outside my window, they are standing by the pub. Even here on VO, not everyone knows how to use the same Internet ...
  • mat-vey
    mat-vey 15 January 2021 16: 51
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    Don't give a damn about the classics.

    you, as always, are educated and cultured ... just like a "non-chill".
  • kalibr
    15 January 2021 16: 56
    +1
    Matvey, why should I show culture in front of whom? Yes, and nafig? I am already the 4th generation of townspeople, this is already in the genes. I can and so - with whom I want, I can and in a simple way, as in childhood on Proletarskaya Street ... also with whom I want. It will not be lost on me, even if I completely switch to the common language.
  • mat-vey
    mat-vey 15 January 2021 16: 59
    0
    Quote: kalibr
    Why should I show culture to whom?

    Well, right on Zoshchenko - And when to rest?
    "I am already the 4th generation of townspeople, this is already in the genes." - well, yes, urban means cultural ..
  • lucul
    lucul 3 January 2021 12: 29
    14 th
    the influence of terror on Soviet society during the Stalin years was not significant; there was no mass fear of reprisals in the 1930s in the Soviet Union; the repressions were limited and did not affect the majority of the Soviet people; Soviet society rather supported the Stalinist regime than feared it; For most people, the Stalinist system provided the opportunity to move upward and participate in public life.

    That's exactly what the Stalinist regime, and in 1917-1922 the Bolsheviks washed Russia with blood. I remember Boris Filatov, Kolomoisky's henchman - "promise them whatever you want, and we will hang them later" (Ukraine 2014).
  • mat-vey
    mat-vey 3 January 2021 12: 35
    +5
    Quote: lucul
    I remember Boris Filatov, Kolomoisky's henchman - "promise them whatever you want, and we will hang them later" (Ukraine 2014).

    Did he tell Lenin or Trotsky?
  • lucul
    lucul 3 January 2021 12: 43
    15 th
    Did he tell Lenin or Trotsky?

    That in 1917 and in 2014 the same people gained power.
  • mat-vey
    mat-vey 3 January 2021 12: 44
    +2
    Wonano, what Mihalych ...
  • zenion
    zenion 3 January 2021 16: 56
    +7
    Little of. The Bolsheviks set Kolchak against Siberia, and on behalf of Lenin he began to hang, chop with sabers and shoot Siberians. Then he sold the Far East to the Japanese, and Siberia to the Americans and the British. Then the Bolsheviks armed the Czechs and they were directed against the white government. Ugh, confused, it seems the opposite is true. It was the Bolsheviks who prevented the capitalists from dividing Russia into parts for every foreign country a gift. Then, out of all their anger, the Bolsheviks drove their friend Bandera Hitler to self-sacrifice and they would not be forgiven for that. He was so good, he could be applied to wounds instead of medicine. In addition, only after the disappearance of the USSR were they able to restore the EU named after Hitler number 2.
  • Simargl
    Simargl 4 January 2021 20: 40
    0
    Quote: lucul
    in 1917-1922 the Bolsheviks washed Russia with blood
    Bolsheviks or Communists? Do you know that there is a difference?
  • mat-vey
    mat-vey 3 January 2021 07: 37
    +3
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    For a long time it was necessary to declassify these archives ... then the liberals would have less opportunity to lie about the billions of babies eaten by Stalin.

    So, who do you think is not declassifying now?
  • ee2100
    ee2100 3 January 2021 05: 49
    +1
    100% objectively, do anyone describe at least a small piece of history, and the 30s, even more so.
    "each of his swamps sees what he wants" (c) Shpakovsky sees that.
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 3 January 2021 06: 25
      +6
      ee2100 (Alexander)
      100% objectively, do anyone describe at least a small piece of history, and the 30s, even more so.
      "each of his swamps sees what he wants" (c) Shpakovsky sees that.
      Nothing of the kind, shpakovsky and objectivity are two incomparable things, under the USSR he broadcast with the same fervor about the history of the CPSU, and now he throws mud at the Soviet period. This is just a weather vane and there can be no question of any objectivity.
      1. lucul
        lucul 3 January 2021 12: 31
        -9
        and now throws mud at the Soviet period.

        Was there no dirt in the USSR? )))
      2. SARANCHA1976
        SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 18: 21
        +3
        And there it is, well, this is the same enemy as Yakovlev
  • lucul
    lucul 3 January 2021 13: 03
    -8
    For me, Vyacheslav Shpakovsky is doing an important thing, developing readers' interest in the history of our state and the country as a whole ... he does not keep silent, but expresses his thoughts, since he himself understands them.

    And most importantly - what a wonderful photo he brought, here it is - who is on a motorcycle - a woman or a man? )))

    How does it successfully correlate with modern feminism and gender identity)))
    After all, the same people, with the same ideas and ideology, after 1917, seized power in the whole world))) Straight deja vu)))
    Compare with the latest Terminator (film)

    There are all 3 women, in the photo if that)))
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 3 January 2021 13: 41
      +1
      Quote: lucul
      There are all 3 women here, in the photo if that

      I don't see a single woman in this photo.
    2. bondrostov
      bondrostov 3 January 2021 14: 09
      +2
      Well, you can clearly see on a motorcycle that a girl! If only the hair was longer, then it's not so repeat
      1. lucul
        lucul 3 January 2021 14: 25
        -7
        Well, you can clearly see on a motorcycle that a girl! If only the hair was longer, then it's not so

        For the 30s, it was extremely tolerant.
  • Far B
    Far B 3 January 2021 05: 38
    +6
    Feet forward or what?
    And what - all those who spent time in the Gulag, got out of there with their feet? Uzhos-uzhos!
    But seriously, we are on the Internet, everything is easily googled. For example:
    The archives of the GULAG contain evidence of the use of methods of material incentives for prisoners' labor at the very beginning of the 30s. So, the order on the Main Administration of the OGPU Camps dated September 25, 1931, signed by the head of the GULAG L.I. Kogan, read: “Considering the importance of the work on the Kungur-Sverdlovsk line carried out by the Office of the Kungur Camps and the need to complete those by November 15, I order:
    1.Increase the payment of bonus salary drummers by 100%
    2. to strengthen the range of stalls, presenting the possibility of 100% sale of premium
    3. to allocate a bonus fund in the amount of 10000 rubles.
    4. to provide at the end of the work a 10-day rest for all prisoners who worked at shock work "
    I will not look for other examples for you - you will find it yourself if you wish.
    And any suppression of dissent towards the USSR
    In this case, we are not talking about dissent, but about explicit slander.
    I would like to see more documents from classified archives
    Shpakovsky is allowed into the classified archives? Wow! What a news! And on what basis is he allowed there?
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 3 January 2021 05: 47
      +3
      Quote: Dalny V
      In this case, we are not talking about dissent, but about explicit slander.

      And for the "honored ideologue" it was too clumsy.
      1. Far B
        Far B 3 January 2021 05: 56
        +4
        Well, he is not an ideologist. So, a propagandist. And for a middle-class propagandist - normal tools: substitution of concepts, manipulations, etc. Because the ideologist is required to substantiate his ideology, and the propagandist is not required to do anything: if he pushed a speech in one place - go, push it in another place. Avoid answering questions - they say, there is no time, they are already waiting for me in the neighboring village, I'm in a hurry. "" There will be debates with vodka - answer: No, Democratic guys, just tea! "(C). ...
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 3 January 2021 06: 05
          +3
          Quote: Dalny V
          Well, he is not an ideologist.

          But all the time about his "great works" on ideology is heard. In any case, on VO more than once came across.
          1. Far B
            Far B 3 January 2021 06: 11
            +1
            constantly about his "great works" on ideology is heard
            From himself laughing A few years ago such an Internet meme was popular: "I am the author of articles, texts and posts", which speaks of, ahem, a somewhat overestimated PSV of the patient. It seems that it's all about him.
            1. mat-vey
              mat-vey 3 January 2021 06: 16
              +2
              Quote: Dalny V
              From himself

              So I'm talking about too ... but you read it ... but I don’t read after reading a couple of samples - here I’m just probably beguiling the New Year ..
            2. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 3 January 2021 09: 45
              +2
              From himself laughing Such an Internet meme was popular a few years ago: "I am the author of articles, texts and posts", talking about, ahem, a somewhat overestimated PSI of the patient.

              Quite right. And he is also proud of his "knowledge" of English (his diploma says so, and this is a document!).
        2. SARANCHA1976
          SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 11: 42
          +1
          "If there will be a debate with vodka - answer: No, Democratic guys, just tea!"
          Comrade, do not tell me where these lines come from
          1. depressant
            depressant 3 January 2021 17: 23
            +1
            Vysotsky. The song "Instructions before going abroad".
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 14: 32
              +1
              Quote: depressant
              The song "Instructions before going abroad".

              The same Vysotsky: "I have complaints against our government, but I will not discuss them with you!" He told this to foreign journalists.
        3. lucul
          lucul 3 January 2021 12: 33
          -7
          ... And for a middle-class propagandist - normal tools: substitution of concepts, manipulations, etc.

          How is it for you?
    2. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 3 January 2021 06: 04
      -6
      In this case, we are not talking about dissent, but about explicit slander.

      Oh how ... here is the fight against dissent that does not fit into your settings ... so you can accuse anyone of slander ... a very convenient tool
      I often go to the Internet and I don't need to look for examples ... I'll find it myself.
      I did not say that Shpakovsky was allowed into the classified archives ... here you yourself are already speculating ... hehe, maybe they themselves decided to do slander? hi
      Not everything is so beautiful in reality.
      Document No. 103
      Certificate on the death rate of prisoners in the GULAG system for the period from 1930 to 1956.
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 3 January 2021 06: 18
        +4
        And what does not suit you? It fully reflects the situation in the country. There is a war in the country - there is also nothing to eat in the zone, in the country the situation has improved - there are fewer tuberculosis patients in the zone.
        1. Lech from Android.
          Lech from Android. 3 January 2021 06: 21
          -2
          And what doesn’t suit you?

          Everything suits me ... I'm not in the Gulag. hi
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 3 January 2021 06: 23
            +2
            Quote: Lech from Android.
            I'm not in the Gulag.

            "Do not excuse yourself from prison and money"
            The main administration of the camp (GULag, also given the abbreviation Gulag with the decoding Main Directorate of Forced Labor Camps) is a division of the NKVD of the USSR, the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the USSR, the Ministry of Justice of the USSR, which was in charge of places of detention and detention in 1930-1960.
            Or do you think that there was a separate GULAG for criminals?
            1. Lech from Android.
              Lech from Android. 3 January 2021 06: 46
              -1
              "Do not excuse yourself from prison and money"
              Spit and cross ...
              Or do you think that there was a separate GULAG for criminals?

              Of course not ... in the Gulag itself, the society of prisoners was divided into different groups ... including on the basis of class ... it was a cruel time.
              Who knows, maybe even without going through the school of life in the Gulag, Sergei Korolev would not have left the general designer of rocketry. hi
              Fate is such a villain.
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 3 January 2021 06: 48
                0
                Quote: Lech from Android.
                it was a cruel time.

                So the death table for everyone - and the lesson and politicians. Although you yourself know it.
          2. Gardamir
            Gardamir 3 January 2021 08: 20
            +2
            I'm not in the Gulag.
            in GUIN?
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 08: 23
              0
              Quote: Gardamir
              in GUIN?

              No no...
          3. SARANCHA1976
            SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 11: 43
            +1
            I will disappoint you, you would never be there
      2. Far B
        Far B 3 January 2021 06: 23
        +1
        so you can accuse anyone of slander ... a very handy tool
        And I'm not going to blame anyone. I specifically blame Shpakovsky. If you do not understand what - take the trouble to reread my first post. If you're too lazy, I'll drag you here:
        Firstly, they were not exiled to the Gulag - they were sent there to serve their sentence (they were imprisoned). The exiled settlers were sent to completely different places, with a completely different regime.
        Secondly: the prisoners (and not exiles, all the more so) were not a slave force - their labor was paid, and quite well, given the initial circumstances. The former prisoners were released with normal money. For shock work, it was possible to knock off the term twice or more - to go nuts slaves, yeah

        Not everything is so beautiful in reality.
        Document No. 103
        Certificate on the death rate of prisoners in the GULAG system for the period from 1930 to 1956.
        Did I say somewhere that it was beautiful in the Gulag? The mortality rate was, of course, high. But the Gulag is, first of all, a system of correctional labor institutions, that is, a place of detention. Accordingly, the conditions of detention of the prisoners will be worse than in the wild - they were sent to atone for their guilt. Yes, by their work, yes, in difficult climatic conditions, yes, by force. Because we are not talking about volunteers, but about c / c. There were also innocent convicts, I am not going to deny this, but their number is still many times exaggerated.
        1. Lech from Android.
          Lech from Android. 3 January 2021 06: 33
          -3
          In a dispute with you, I prefer to rely on documents ... which is what I wish Shpakovsky in disputes with my opponents. hi
          In the early 30s, after the mass dispossession of peasant farms in the USSR, in addition to concentration camps and camps, an extensive system of special settlements for "former kulaks" was created, in which there were about 2000 special settlements with a population of over one million special settlers. In accordance with the decree of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR No. 775/146 c "On the organization of labor settlements of the OGPU" dated April 20, 1933, the GULAG of the OGPU was reorganized into the Main Directorate of camps and labor settlements of the OGPU.

          http://mstu.edu.ru/science/conferences/11ntk/materials/section1/section1_1.html
          1. Far B
            Far B 3 January 2021 06: 54
            +3
            And so it was necessary to write about the peasants exiled to special settlements of the Gulag, and not in the "terrible gulag". This is a juggling of facts. The very expression "to send (put) to the Gulag" is rather oak, because you cannot put anyone in the General Administration of the camps. It's like saying now: "You will be sent to the UFSIN". There is no sense, but it sounds scary, already horror! And it perfectly forms a negative emotional background.
            1. Lech from Android.
              Lech from Android. 3 January 2021 07: 06
              12 th
              There is no sense, but it sounds scary, already horror! And it perfectly forms a negative emotional background.
              Well, not everything is on the forum of doctors of sciences and professors smile
              You also need to be able to work with documents and archives.
              Be at least a little condescending to less educated members of the forum.
              1. Far B
                Far B 3 January 2021 07: 23
                +5
                And I kind of have a claim to the author of the article under discussion, and not to the members of the forum, no? He positions himself as a journalist-writer-teacher, etc., and so on. And finally. That is why I try to expose his opuses like this one, where he is engaged in deliberate substitution of concepts with the quite obvious purpose of denigrating the Soviet system that he does not like. Because it is necessary to open such things - you know, I had enough talkers in the late 80s and 90s who managed to completely slander everything that I, my parents, my country lived with. Now we are clearing up the result of their lies, slander and falsehood. So forgive, but I simply cannot pass by such an outrage.
                1. kalibr
                  12 January 2021 20: 54
                  -3
                  Quote: Dalny V
                  So forgive, but I simply cannot pass by such an outrage.

                  You will survive, especially since in the 91st the scoop burned out ...
              2. SARANCHA1976
                SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 11: 48
                +5
                What a wonderful photo .. an intellectual holding a scoop and a commie but providing them services for a money plus clandestine abortions and a crippled animal
          2. MrK
            MrK 8 January 2021 17: 36
            +1
            "In the early 30s, after the mass dispossession of peasant farms in the USSR, in addition to concentration camps and camps, a ramified system of special settlements for" former kulaks "was created, in which there were about 2000 special settlements with a population of over one million special settlers." Stop lying. Was dispossessed (according to Zemskov) a little more than 660 thousand, with family members about 1 million. 800 thous.
        2. parusnik
          parusnik 3 January 2021 10: 02
          +4
          But the Gulag is, first of all, a system of correctional labor institutions, that is, a place of detention
          ... Here you are wrong, not a place of imprisonment, but a place of serving a sentence associated with imprisonment.
  • YOUR
    YOUR 3 January 2021 06: 18
    +4
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    I don't remember those ..

    Oh how! Do you have experience?
    But seriously, in a search engine, type "how much does the ZK earn"
    About current
    The average salary is officially 229 rubles. in a day. But, it all depends on the production, and as a rule this is the minimum amount, but in reality it comes out more. But, from this salary, the convict can deduct compensation for damage if there was any, as well as maintenance costs. As a result, the prisoner receives 25% of the total amount of earnings, which is transferred to his personal account and this amount is guaranteed, they are not entitled to pay less.
    ----
    And just to think about how he threw himself back, and so a citizen who is already a comrade with an empty pocket and again into battle, to clean his pockets, has thrown back. So what do you think?
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 3 January 2021 06: 24
      -8
      And just to think about how he threw himself back, and so a citizen who is already a comrade with an empty pocket and again into battle, to clean his pockets, has thrown back. So what do you think?

      Why are you showing me statistics these days?
      Now we have no class struggle in the zone, unlike the 30s ...
      I hope you will not deny the lawlessness of Yezhov and Yagoda ... no mercy to the enemies of the people under Article 58.
      1. Far B
        Far B 3 January 2021 06: 32
        +1
        Now we have no class struggle in the zone
        Reds against thieves? "Bitch war"?
        "The class struggle in the zone" is almost like a women's fight in the mud, stronger than Goethe's "Faust" will be laughing
      2. YOUR
        YOUR 3 January 2021 13: 38
        -1
        What does this have to do with the subject of the conversation - Labor compensation of the ZK?
    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 06: 34
      +5
      Quote: YOUR
      The average salary is officially 229 rubles. in a day.

      I was chatting with a friend. My dad got 300 .. A friend yelled: What are you, fucking?
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 3 January 2021 06: 24
    +7
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    For shock work it was possible to knock off the term twice or more - to go nuts slaves, yeah.
    I don't remember those ... how many I read about prisoners in those days ... please give an example

    At the Novosibirsk plant of chemical concentrates in the 1950s, prisoners worked alongside. There was a daily norm for the manufacture of products. Those who performed 121% were recorded for the day of the term of two days. For 151% - three days.
    1. Fitter65
      Fitter65 3 January 2021 14: 56
      -4
      Quote: Sahar Medovich
      At the Novosibirsk plant of chemical concentrates in the 1950s, prisoners worked alongside.

      Is there any confirmation of your assertion? .. There is just a vague doubt that the labor of prisoners was used in such a production, moreover, in production processes ... It's like stories about how the ZK, with a pick and a shovel, mined uranium ore.
      1. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 3 January 2021 16: 09
        0
        Generally there is, but I do not. They wrote about this in the factory newspaper, but I did not save it. In the factory archive, one must think, is. And not only this.
        1. Fitter65
          Fitter65 5 January 2021 02: 15
          0
          Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
          Generally there is, but I do not. They wrote about this in the factory newspaper, but I did not save it. In the factory archive, one must think, is. And not only this.

          I have no more questions ...
      2. Oprichnik
        Oprichnik 4 January 2021 21: 52
        0
        Fitterу65 - This is exactly how the captured Basmachi worked in Central Asia in 1942. My father, a military topographer, saw it himself, and the guards advised him to leave as soon as possible, because poisonous dust and basmachi die from it. The deposit was in a cave, in a gorge, which he mapped, like the mountains around.
        1. Fitter65
          Fitter65 5 January 2021 02: 18
          +1
          Quote: Oprichnik
          Fitterу65 - This is exactly how the captured Basmachi worked in Central Asia in 1942. My father, a military topographer, saw it himself, and the guards advised him to leave as soon as possible, because poisonous dust and basmachi die from it. The deposit was in a cave, in a gorge, which he mapped, like the mountains around.

          So, in a nutshell, you just do not know very well the system itself related to extraction, processing and other things related to radioactive materials ... Therefore, you tell your grandchildren the story of what my folder saw ...
  • Fitter65
    Fitter65 3 January 2021 10: 45
    +5
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    For shock work it was possible to knock off the term twice or more - to go nuts slaves, yeah.

    I don’t remember such ... how many I read about prisoners in those days ... give an example, please.
    You just don't know the story well
    In connection with the completion of the construction of the White Sea-Baltic waterway, the Central Executive Committee of the USSR decided to early release a significant number of prisoners who have special merits in construction. 12 prisoners were released, terms for 484 prisoners were reduced.
  • SARANCHA1976
    SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 18: 19
    0
    What a rake .. ordinary people in one substance are already head over heels, what with the analysis what without
  • Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 06: 27
    +7
    Quote: Dalny V
    In short, again Shpakovsky went on the warpath with the USSR.

    laughing
  • mat-vey
    mat-vey 3 January 2021 06: 33
    +2
    Quote: Dalny V
    In the RGVA they calculated: 60% of the repressed are peasants,

    Considering that the share of peasants was under 70%, then it is clearly not tolerant like that ..
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 3 January 2021 08: 02
    -7
    Quote: Dalny V
    secondly: prisoners (and not exiles, even more so) slavish were not force - their work was paid, and pretty good, given the initial circumstances.

    Nope: the introduction in the camps of a salary system that corresponds to the principles of remuneration in civilian sectors, in all the central administrations of the Ministry of Internal Affairs [/ b], who used prison labor, this is 1950, i.e. it was already at the end of the Gulag era, when slave labor turned out to be completely unproductive

    And the Gulag began with 1930 g-along with the mass collectivization and dispossession. "Strange" such a coincidence.

    And yesslave labor is then, when a person for reasons beyond his control cannot refuse to perform work.

    That was exactly what happened in the GULAG.

    And not only in the GULAG: for example, the special resettlers had the same work.million exiled Uncondemned robbed peasants.

    Which were handed over to various economic agents under economic agreements, and not only adults, but also ....CHILDREN from 8 years old! .
    For example:

    Special settlers of the Narym Territory for their labor use as of June 1, 1932 are distributed as follows:

    Use of TOTAL h. men. womenincluding adolescents

    Under agreements with
    Хоз. Организац …182289……..46804..51647……….19936….…63884

    Source: State Archives of the Novosibirsk Region. F.R-47.Op.5.D.137.L.4-7, 46-50. Script

    Quote: Dalny V
    who in the RGVA (or is it the author's interpretation) is understood as repressed? All convicts, or convicts only for political reasons?

    And the uncondemned, too, must be counted: millions of peasants OUTSIDE any courts were COMPLETELY robbed and exiled, including a MILLION children. And yes - 80% of the deceased exiled are CHILDREN! For example, from the letter of the People's Commissar of the NKVD Tolmachev:
    In the North-Dvinsky district, on April 12, 1930, a total of 784 died, of which children - 634


    As for the yield, the author is not right: the yield of the 1913 level was heroic by the communist builders ... only caught up by 1956 (except 1937).

    And yes, the productivity of personal subsidiary plots was 20 times higher than that of the collective farm, for example, 50-60% of the livestock production was given to the country not by the collective farm, but by ... personal farming enterprises.
    1. SARANCHA1976
      SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 11: 55
      +4
      yes, slave labor exists when a person, for reasons beyond his control, cannot refuse to perform work. do not tell me what kind of work is now for most people? Exactly the same
    2. Fitter65
      Fitter65 3 January 2021 13: 46
      +5
      Quote: Olgovich

      Nope: the introduction in the camps of a salary system that corresponds to the principles of remuneration in civilian sectors, in all the central administrations of the Ministry of Internal Affairs [/ b], who used prison labor, this is 1950, i.e. it was already at the end of the Gulag era, when slave labor turned out to be completely unproductive

      It seems that they did not lie, but others write.
      Accusations of the use of forced and even slave labor of the GULAG prisoners have become a commonplace in our discussion about the Stalinist period. As well as the claims that the ITL and ITK were not much different from the death camps, millions and millions of dissidents were tortured in them.

      At the same time, few people know (and interested people try not to focus on this) that the prisoners of the GULAG received a salary for their labor. "This money in administrative documents from the beginning and up to the end of the 1940s. Was designated by the terms" monetary incentive "or" monetary bonus. " The concept of "salary" was also sometimes used, but this name was officially introduced only in 1950.

      So, as of 1939, "the bonus was necessarily credited to the prisoner's personal account. During the month, working prisoners were given money in an amount not exceeding a monthly bonus. In addition to the bonus, prisoners, depending on their behavior at work and at home, could be issued with the permission of the head of the camp unit and personal money in the amount of not more than 100 rubles per month. (ibid.)

      Read on laughing
      How substantiated are the allegations of the Stalinist USSR using forced labor of prisoners? We can judge this by international legal acts. Thus, the International Labor Organization Convention No. 29 “On Forced or Compulsory Labor” of 1930 [3] for the first time established that each ILO member country “undertakes to abolish the use of forced or compulsory labor in all its forms as soon as possible”.

      The term “forced labor” itself was interpreted by the convention rather simply - as “any work or service required of a person under the threat of any punishment for which this person did not offer his services voluntarily”. The Convention contained an important reservation - the labor “required of a person as a result of a sentence” does not consider forced. Those. the ILO Convention of 1930 did not apply to prisoners.

      Only in 1949 did the ILO Convention No. 95 “On the Protection of Wages” [4]. In accordance with this document, modern lawyers conclude that “work without payment is forced labor prohibited by the ILO Convention N 95 of 08.06.49/1998/10" (in particular, see the decision of the Supreme Court of the Russian Federation, BVS of the Russian Federation. 5. N XNUMX). [XNUMX]

      Thus, the labor of prisoners of the Stalinist Gulag was not only not considered compulsory from the point of view of international norms that were in force at that time (and even today), but it was also paid for, which was an advanced phenomenon from the point of view of labor legislation.
      In general, as we can see from the facts, whoever wants the facts pulls.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 3 January 2021 18: 06
        -4
        Quote: Fitter65
        "This money in administrative documents initially and until the end of the 1940s. Was designated by the terms" monetary incentive "or" cash bonus. "The concept of" salary "was also sometimes used, but this name was officially introduced only in 1950.

        Premierrewards were in cash, but small and one-off, NOT permanent, but this is NOT a salary. This is exactly the reward. In addition, they encouraged rations with rations, shorter deadlines, and offsets.

        And the salary systems corresponding to the principles of remuneration in civilian sectors were FIRST applied in 1948 in Dalstroj, and throughout the Ministry of Internal Affairs in 1950
        Quote: Fitter65
        The term “forced labor” itself was interpreted by the convention rather simply - as “any work or service required of a person under the threat of any punishment for which this person did not offer his services voluntarily”. The Convention contained an important reservation - the labor “required of a person as a result of a sentence” does not consider forced. Those. the ILO Convention of 1930 did not apply to prisoners.

        The USSR ratified it only in 1956 year and it had no effect on the Gulag prisoners.

        and not surprising, because the verdict should have been passed by the decision judicial authorityrather than OUTSIDE triplets.

        And millions of peasants were exiled without any sentences at all.
        They knew in the USSR that this cannot be ratified
        Quote: Fitter65
        Thus, the labor of prisoners of the Stalinist Gulag was not only not considered compulsory from the point of view of international norms that were in force at that time (and even today), but it was also paid for, which was an advanced phenomenon from the point of view of labor legislation.

        It was considered slave and was not paid until 1950.
        1. zenion
          zenion 3 January 2021 21: 21
          +1
          Of course, it has never been written here how the labor of prisoners in the States was used, during the crisis, and how many were buried on the side of the road. There was no payment or reduction of the term during Roosevelt's time, as well as before and after him.
        2. Fitter65
          Fitter65 5 January 2021 02: 57
          -1
          Quote: Olgovich
          It was considered slave and was not paid until 1950.

          True, the documents confirm the opposite, but the one who lied once will lie constantly.
          Source: State Archives of the Novosibirsk Region. F.R-47.Op.5.D.137.L.4-7, 46-50. what do we have there?
          Information letter from the SibLAG OGPU on the state of housing, cultural, household and medical and sanitary construction for special settlers. Not earlier than September 1932
          ,go aheadLetter from the commandant of the Kuznetsk commandant's office to the director of the Gornoshora timber industry enterprise about the reasons for the escape of the special settlers. September 14, 1932By the way, a very interesting document, at the expense of soldering by the way., So on ...
          Information of the sanitary department of the SibLAG of the OGPU in Zapsibkraizdrav about infant mortality among special settlers. August 29, 1932
          Very interesting, can you imagine, they are worried about how to reduce mortality, indicating what to do, then follow your link.
          From the report of the OGPU SibLAG on the results of the economic development of the Narym by special settlers for the period from May 1931 to June 1932.No later than August 7, 1932
          Thus, within 65-70 days, the Narym Territory, colonized by the tsarist government for 350 years and received during this period of time about 40 people. resettled population, doubled the number of residents.

          Accommodation 180 people. The special settlers in Narym radically changed its entire economy and way of life, created extraordinary prospects for the economic use of its enormous wealth.

          The special settlers introduced into the May operation were distributed partly in the areas where the special settlers of the previous resettlement operations (1930 and 1929) remained, and in completely new areas. The location of the commandant's offices that united the management of the economic structure of the special settlers is given in Appendix No. 1 *. (* See the appendix in this collection)

          The economic arrangement in the uninhabited areas of Narym, especially its climatic conditions, the absence of an appropriate medical network in the first months of colonization caused increased mortality and, along with it, increased escapes of special settlers. On the other hand, the population continued to increase with the arriving parties of new contingents. All this was reflected in large changes in the dynamics of the composition of the population.
          Adolescents of both sexes make up 10,9% of the total population and children under 12 years old - 35,1%.
          True, in those years it was quite normal to start working at the age of 12-14, my grandfather, together with his father, in the same period went to work on the construction of the future Novosibirsk Opera and Ballet Theater, from the age of 13, they went mainly in the fall, and worked before field work, and more than one year. Of course, if today we are officially young people under 35, then in those days almost babies worked ...
          1. [comment-show]
            Fitter65
            Fitter65 5 January 2021 03: 12
            0
            Source: State Archives of the Novosibirsk Region. F.R-47.Op.5.D.137.L.4-7, 46-50[/ b]. what do we have there?
            Let's go further?
            Information letter from the West Siberian Kraizdrav to the People's Commissariat for Health on the results of a medical and sanitary examination of the northern commandant's offices of the SibLAG OGPU. At the earliest 11 July 1932
            And then how interesting about housing
            The nature of the housing buildings: these are mostly simple chopped barracks for one or two families, but where, due to the ongoing housing crisis, single-family barracks are usually occupied by two or three families with a soul of 12 to 18 people.
            About ration
            Meals in the commandant's offices are exclusively individual. Allowed ration for the head of the family of a special settler, if he is employed at work in commandant's offices, and for members of the working family consists of flour - 17 kg, cereals - 3-4 kg, 1 kg of sugar, meat, in the absence of the latter, is not released, but it is produced irregularly, according to if available, fish supply. Dependents are given flour in the exchange of 8 kg, cereals and sugar in half, [b] children are given flour - 8 kg, cereals and sugar - on a par with the worker
            .
            About how Children - on a par with workers ..
            On the whole, from conversations with the special settlers on their own conclusion, there have been significant improvements in nutrition in comparison with the spring and autumn of 1931, but the almost complete absence of vegetables, mainly potatoes, reduces all nutrition to extreme uniformity, and the absence of meat and fats - low calorie soldering. Very poor nutrition last year, which led to severe exhaustion, and its low calorie content at present, and especially the lack of vegetables in the diet, led to the fact that at present in some remote northern commandant's offices with poor communication routes, where in the fall by water the paths were not completely abandoned food, there is a significant development of scurvy diseases and night blindness. These commandant's offices include: Parbikskaya, Ketskaya, Parabelskaya and Sredne-Vasyugan. In the last commandant's office, the percentage of scurvy diseases reaches 30.
            The developed decline in nutrition among some of the special settlers and the body's need for enhanced nutrition, as well as the limited range of products, forces them, in order to obtain imaginary saturation, to mix with the main food product - flour - all sorts of surrogates, such as sawed, finely crushed rot. To this end, they take half-rotted aspen stumps, dry them, then start sawing. The resulting sawdust is dried in ovens and pounded in mortars and the resulting powdery mass is mixed with flour, with which bread is baked.
            They talk, they know the problems, and measures are taken to solve them. Oh, here's another
            In connection with the transfer from various commandant's offices of the Narym Territory and the southern commandant's offices of special settlers with disabilities in the amount of 1500 people. to the Kozhevnikovsky district, where an invalid home will be opened in the village of Tatyanovka, then the district health department was asked to organize an emergency room to serve them, for which 1933 rubles were allocated from our funds until January 4100. according to the attached estimate. The emergency room will be open from 15.07 this year.
            In total, according to the plan, 71 nurseries with a total of 1420 beds are envisaged in the northern commandant's offices of the Narym Territory. According to available information, as of 17.07, we have opened 62 nurseries with 1668 beds. The situation is very bad with their equipment. There is not enough manufactory and linen and it is not entirely possible to purchase them locally. Krayzdrav asks you to help in this regard and send both for nurseries and for children's homes of various manufactures in the amount of 8500 m at the rate of 6 meters per child. The rest of the equipment will be provided.
            Inpatient medical institutions are also not provided with soft equipment, as far as possible, they are sent something, but still this did not satisfy their minimum need.
            So here is also an interesting document
            Memorandum of the head of the SibLAG of the OGPU on the arrangement of the special settlers of Zapsiblestrest. June 18, 1932
            what do we have here? ..
            About the outrages in the device of the special settlers of Zapsiblestrest
            Despite the existence of organizational conclusions regarding the leadership of the former Zapsiblestrest, the new leadership, represented by a representative of the People's Commissariat for Forestry, not only does not take real measures to improve the development of special settlers, but [and] does not consider it necessary to get acquainted in detail with the extremely unfavorable conditions of the device and their labor use ...
            Look, what's the second item? Can I cite it in full?
            Wages and Compliance with the Labor Code
            Due to the complete lack of leadership, improper, inappropriate use and placement of the workforce, the development of special settlers does not even provide a ration redemption.
            In addition to low earnings, there is a systematic delay in wages. There are cases of delayed wages in 1930-1931. Despite the demands of the commandant's office (Novo-Kuskovskaya, report dated May 1931), no calculations have been made to this day for the construction and alloying of 29.05 and for the testing of sleepers.
            The situation is even worse for people who have lost their ability to work at the timber industry enterprise (Zyryanovsky), as well as for families whose heads were killed at work.
            Example: special settlers Kiselev, Pervyshin, Perervin and a number of others (Zyryanovskiy LPH), who have lost their ability to work at work, do not receive any assistance from the LPH, and the LPH does not take any assistance measures to pay out insurance. The situation of such families and workers is aggravated by the fact that private household plots remove them from supply.

            In Cheremoshniki, salaries are calculated and paid for groups of 60-100 people at once, which creates a complete leveling off. There are no check books. Overtime is paid as usual.

            Careless use workforceby disrupting production tasks, it reduces the earnings of the special settlers and the incentive to better performance in work.
            Rabsilahere from the reduced labor force ...
            [/ comment-show] [comment-deleted]
            The comment was deleted.
            [/ comment-deleted]
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 5 January 2021 08: 28
    0
    Quote: Fitter65
    True, the documents confirm the opposite

    Lying. yes
    Quote: Fitter65
    Source: State Archives of the Novosibirsk Region. F.R-47.Op.5.D.137.L.4-7, 46-50. what do we have there?
    Information letter from the SibLAG OGPU on the state of housing, cultural, household and medical and sanitary construction for special settlers. Not earlier than September 1932
    The letter of the commandant of the Kuznetsk commandant's office to the director of the Gornoshora timber industry enterprise about the reasons for the escape of the special settlers. September 14, 1932 By the way, a very interesting document, about soldering, by the way, so on ...
    Information of the sanitary department of the SibLAG of the OGPU in Zapsibkraizdrav about infant mortality among special settlers. August 29, 1932
    Very interesting, can you imagine, they are worried about how to reduce mortality, indicating what to do, then follow your link.

    Say something they wanted? belay lol Try to express it in Russian, ts. "think"
    Quote: Fitter65
    Thus, within 65-70 days, the Narym Territory, colonized by the tsarist government for 350 years and received during this period of time about 40 people. of the resettled population, doubled the number of residents. Teenagers of both sexes in the total mass of the population make up 000% and children under 10,9 years old - 12%.

    It does not reach you, I see that this is sheer lawlessness and atrocity - to forcefully throw the citizens of the USSR, not convicted by anyone, to the North of Narym, incl. many tens of thousands of children, in disastrous conditions, and even forcing CHILDREN to work in felling and so on? Let me remind you that these were PEOPLE with all their RIGHTS, desires, thoughts and dreams, and not draft animals.

    So the damned colonialists colonized America, Australia, but even then until the 18th century.
    Quote: Fitter65
    True, in those years it was quite normal to start working at the age of 12-14,

    Again nonsense: child labor was OFFICIALLY banned in the USSR and the USSR was officially proud of it. And the Prosecutor General of the USSR Vyshinsky confirmed this, see the 1930s. All this, of course, was the usual hypocrisy, but officially they were ashamed of it and denied it.
    Children should learn, not cut pine trees
    Quote: Fitter65
    My grandfather and his father went to work since the age of 13,

    Are both 13 years old? wink lol
  • SARANCHA1976
    SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 11: 38
    +6
    Our truth-fighters, if they bother to read, will be surprised to learn that most of the so-called. repressed kulaks were expelled to neighboring regions, and some of the notorious exploiters left the place of exile and rubbed themselves in their native places with fake certificates
  • zenion
    zenion 3 January 2021 16: 48
    +3
    There was such a Bear. What he did there is not known. But he got 4 years in the camps. Then there was someone who wanted to help the national economy and they counted. He left for a year and a half, but he signed up. They were building something there and maybe half a year has passed. They tell him you want to quit, or you can stay. So he stayed. I worked for another two years and went on vacation to our town. Such a gentleman with a suitcase, these are neighbors, they said. Spun for a week and back. Again to Siberia. After a while, he got married there and dragged his parents there. His father was a shoemaker and he needed one, the city was being built. At first he shopped himself. Then they made a type of firm. Then the state turned them into a factory and he was the manager. Products for the people and the army. Then came the war.
  • ee2100
    ee2100 3 January 2021 05: 38
    +7
    It is not correct to compare the USA, Canada and Argentina where the climatic conditions are different. The European part of Russia is located in the so-called. zone of risky farming. And only now, when the climate on the planet has changed in the south of the Russian Federation, they began to collect record harvests.
    If the population of the United States was comparable to the population of the USSR, while in Canada and Argentina the population did not even reach 20 million people. And cereals were and remain the main agricultural crop of these countries.
    "Hunger came to the aid of the state, which no one particularly fought in the early 30s" (c)
    In 1933, the mortality rate in relation to 1932 increased by 70%, its peak fell on the summer months of May and June. These charts are available on the Internet. This is not only associated with hunger, but primarily with the malaria epidemic.
    Mortality in 2020 compared to 2019 increased by 15%.
    The author mentions the repressed in Moldova. About 10000 people. All their names are known, as well as their real number. Who drew up the lists of those subject to repression? Probably Stalin himself? Usually local "activists"
    who liked the neighboring farm.
    The Memorials website contains lists of almost 2 million repressed.
    The article leaves the impression that the main task of the USSR Communist Party was to fight the peasantry until it was completely destroyed.
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 3 January 2021 08: 11
      0
      Quote: ee2100
      It is not correct to compare the USA, Canada and Argentina where the climatic conditions are different. The European part of Russia is located in the so-called. zone of risky farming.


      The central part of Russia is a zone of risky farming, but perhaps this phrase is a bit sly. If it is not possible to grow cereals without risk in the Ryazan region, Smolensk region, then you can easily grow flax, vegetables, legumes. Some areas, like Orlovskaya, were record holders in the cultivation of Hemp, which was the basis for the production of ship rigging, sackcloth, hemp oil and much more, such as gunpowder. A person cannot live without all this either.
      And most importantly, it is in Russia and Ukraine that the BIGGEST chernozems in the world, that is, when we are told about low yields and famines in the Volga region, this is clearly NOT a NATURAL factor, but some kind of planned action, either tsarism or Bolshevism.
      1. kalibr
        3 January 2021 08: 39
        0
        Quote: Bar1
        And most importantly, it is in Russia and Ukraine that the BIGGEST chernozems in the world, that is, when we are told about low yields and famines in the Volga region, this is clearly NOT a NATURAL factor, but some kind of planned action, either tsarism or Bolshevism.

        In 1900, at the World Exhibition in Paris, a cut of that black soil was demonstrated - a glass column 9 meters high. Most of all, journalists are crazy about her.
      2. ee2100
        ee2100 3 January 2021 13: 35
        +1
        That's right, it is necessary to grow in each region the crop that grows best. And when everything is done on command: what to plant, how much and when - then there is a zone of risky farming.
        Until now, agrocommittees give instructions to former collective and state farms (they are now all sorts of joint-stock companies, closed joint-stock companies, etc.) what and how much to plant.
    2. kalibr
      3 January 2021 08: 37
      -8
      Quote: ee2100
      the main task of the Communist Party of the USSR was to fight the peasantry until it was completely destroyed.

      Yes exactly! And replacing it with agricultural workers. Only this was not clearly understood, and of course it was not declared.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 3 January 2021 12: 44
        -5
        Quote: kalibr
        Yes exactly! And replacing it with agricultural workers. Only this was not clearly understood, and of course it was not declared.

        Of course, their goal is to transform the peasantry to the proletariat, without their own farm. As Khrushchev said: if the peasant wants chicken, he will go for milk and ... buy it ..

        Lenin spoke, wanted and did the rural proletariat (the communes created by this example) and Stalin in 1939 (we are talking about cutting down private household plots) and Khrushchev all the more (this one moved farthest in implementation and brought down production)
      2. RitaNik
        RitaNik 7 January 2021 05: 59
        0
        Thank you for the series of articles. If only to trace how the demographic structure of the population changed during that period ... But, reliable data on this topic, probably, is generally unrealistic to find out.
        1. kalibr
          7 January 2021 07: 29
          0
          Quote: RitaNik
          If only to trace how the demographic structure of the population changed during that period ... But, reliable data on this topic, probably, is generally unrealistic to find out.

          It will require a separate and very lengthy study ... And it is not a fact that we will know 100% ...
      3. RitaNik
        RitaNik 7 January 2021 07: 51
        0
        The demographic structure refers to age and sex, because in an excerpt from N. Voznesensky's book it is mentioned about a reserve for the army, and according to some sources, since the beginning of the war, the rural population had the least amount of "armor" (5 percent) compared to the urban population.
    3. SARANCHA1976
      SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 12: 00
      +6
      Absolutely right .. even bugs chewed on this topic. And our truth-fighters, something does not come to mind a simple question and who benefits from the destruction of the peasantry? What then were you going to eat? so-called Bush's legs and the rest of the export? Well, these questions of our subverters democrats do not care at all
  • Iskazi
    Iskazi 3 January 2021 05: 46
    +9
    rather vague, poorly worked out material, it is not clear what the author is trying to say. Yes, it is known that collectivization and industrialization are very ambiguous phenomena, although the comparison with the British "fencing" is completely fair, but nothing more, the author completely ignores the real state of affairs while both in the party and in the state ..., article on the level of the Sokhnutov agitation and perestroika light ..., the anti-Sovietists, propaganda at the level of the knowledge society were refined. Paper will endure everything ...
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 3 January 2021 09: 37
      +4
      article on the level of Sokhnutov propaganda and perestroika light ...,

      "Ogonyok" died, now I have to write in VO.
  • nikvic46
    nikvic46 3 January 2021 05: 57
    +9
    Each fact should have an explanation. And not by individual writers, but better by documents. In the BES in 1954, one can understand why there was a tension with food in 1932-1933. After the Revolution, as before, the main export was the rural product. For him they got their-ha of the border of the machine, the mechanisms needed for the industry. In 1933, the debt was repaid. \\\\\\ but without the development of industry, we would now be at zero. By 1941, 364 cities, 9000 enterprises were built. Moreover, the working day at these enterprises was 7-hour. New industries appeared. which did not exist before the Revolution. This is primarily non-ferrous metallurgy. An ordinary kulak with his family was not subject to repression (I mean the GULAG). In 1936 there were no labor exchanges. Unemployment was ended. Of course we are jarring from the actions that were years.But after all, people have become completely different. In the future, they will also talk about us - "It's just unbearable to live."
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 3 January 2021 08: 17
      +1
      Quote: nikvic46
      For him they got them-ha of the border of the machine, the mechanisms needed for the industry

      it's a delusion.

  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 3 January 2021 06: 03
    +2
    If we compare the yield with the USA and Argentina, one cannot ignore the climatic conditions.

    The boundary question has always been painful. I was interested that a third of the cultivated soil fell on the border. There is something to think about.
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 3 January 2021 06: 21
      +4
      Quote: Korsar4
      If we compare the yield with the USA and Argentina, one cannot ignore the climatic conditions.

      As well as mechanization and, let's say, chemicalization of agriculture in those years.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 3 January 2021 07: 09
        +3
        Of course. There are soil and climatic conditions, there is a level of mechanization, the development of the plant protection system, and so on almost to infinity.
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 3 January 2021 07: 16
          +2
          Yes, I'm basically talking about something else - in the small private in the USSR all this could not be applied in principle .. and without this the country would not have survived in the end.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 3 January 2021 07: 23
            +4
            Returning to Virgin Land Upturned: this is almost a monologue by Kondrat Maidannikov.

            I think that for the world in general, the process of concentration is dominant.

            And the country's survival depends on many components.
            1. mat-vey
              mat-vey 3 January 2021 07: 25
              +2
              Quote: Korsar4
              And the country's survival depends on many components.

              Well, there are just critical ones.
      2. parusnik
        parusnik 3 January 2021 10: 27
        +9
        As well as mechanization and, let's say, chemicalization of agriculture in those years.
        ... By the way, my great-grandfather before the revolution, according to my grandmother, subscribed to all kinds of mechanisms from the USA. I didn’t buy Russian, it was expensive and there wasn’t what I wanted. He was advanced, he believed that a sole proprietor was not an option. When the first TOZ was formed in the village, I rejoiced at this initiative. I gave all the equipment there. All the same, they called him "the enemy of the people" at the meetings. The situation changed when the 25 thousanders were sent to organize the collective farm. They appointed him an agronomist, brought the collective farm to the frontline. But they didn’t love him, before the revolution and after the revolution, because he knew the land. He always had a harvest. Batrakov kept him. For one of the farm laborers, my grandmother married my grandfather. During the civil years he retreated with the Reds, as his sons and farm laborers left for the Red Army. When the cattle were massively slaughtered in the countryside, he refused to slaughter. They promised to let the "red rooster" in for refusal, they did not let him in. They did not send him to the Gulag.
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 3 January 2021 10: 30
          +5
          Quote: parusnik
          . For one of the farm laborers, my grandmother married, my grandfather.

          The man had advanced technical and social views.
          1. parusnik
            parusnik 3 January 2021 10: 42
            +6
            And the husband of my grandmother's sister never joined the collective farm, neither during collectivization, nor after. He came from the war, and remained an individual farmer. I didn't get into the Gulag for that. Died of wounds in 1950 Only then his wife joined the collective farm, it was not possible to run one household. Grandmother, with the children by kinship, was "exploited" for almost free. So, they will give to poverty That would not die of hunger. And this is after the war. Grandfather did not return from the front, he was missing. And seven souls of children.
            1. mat-vey
              mat-vey 3 January 2021 10: 44
              +4
              Yes, your family is a live exposure of the perestroika myths ..
              1. parusnik
                parusnik 3 January 2021 10: 58
                +9
                I mean, not everything was so simple. Here's another exposure of "black and white magic." My grandfather, already on the paternal side, began to fight in the Finnish war. I served to an officer. As I curry favor, there were large losses among the commanders, In the years of the Great Patriotic War, he fought in the same place near Leningrad. Captivity. Somehow escaped. He ended up in Italy. Fought in local partisans. When he returned home, it turned out that he had fought with the wrong partisans. Communist, but he was a communist himself. Punished. They sent him to Poti to a settlement, worked in a shoe artel. I liked it. I wanted to take my family to Georgia. the whole region .N.S. Khrushchev came to power, the artel was liquidated.
                1. mat-vey
                  mat-vey 3 January 2021 11: 00
                  +3
                  Quote: parusnik
                  I mean, not everything was so simple

                  So such a boiling pot was seething ... but you can't do anything in a couple of years ... well, the help of foreign partners, besides ...
                2. SARANCHA1976
                  SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 12: 08
                  11
                  Khrushchev liquidated all the artels .. for most of the artels it is something of a low-profile popular production, although under Stalin the artels produced motorcycles, radios, televisions .. an analogue of cooperatives. About how the tyrant drove the country into the common fund. And I also like how poorly and poorly the peasants lived in the USSR, already in the war, they built tanks with planes on their savings
                  1. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 3 January 2021 12: 17
                    +7
                    Quote: SARANCHA1976
                    Stalin produced motorcycles, radios, televisions ... an analogue of cooperatives.

                    Moreover, in the war, in besieged Leningrad, weapons were made.
                  2. Aviator_
                    Aviator_ 3 January 2021 14: 39
                    +7
                    how poorly and badly the peasants lived in the USSR, already in the war, they built tanks with planes on their savings

                    On this occasion, Yuri Mukhin (editor-in-chief of the Duel newspaper) once gave a good example - the collective farmer Ferapont Golovaty bought, it seems, two planes at his own expense, and the entire staff of the Bolshoi Theater was thrown onto the plane in a joint.
                    1. SARANCHA1976
                      SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 14: 52
                      +3
                      If memory does not betray the "Maly Theater Front" column T34 on their savings, the peasant Golovatov has two YAKs to his countryman. And this was not unique.
                      1. Aviator_
                        Aviator_ 3 January 2021 15: 06
                        +1
                        Well, this is the Maly Theater. And I'm talking about Big. As for the T-34 column, it was, but it is unlikely that it was entirely funded by the Maly Theater. But the ROC for two columns is quite real, there were a lot of funds, although it cannot be compared with the current ones.
                    2. Reptiloid
                      Reptiloid 4 January 2021 12: 45
                      +1
                      hi here you, Sergey, Mukhin remembered. ..... but to me, when I read the article and some comments, on the contrary, Pozdnyar was recalled. ..... how is he about the people ..... or how is a non-Russian old woman ashamed that she is Russian ..... such parallels ...
                      1. Aviator_
                        Aviator_ 4 January 2021 14: 27
                        +1
                        Dmitry, I did not understand anything about the parallels. Express yourself more clearly.
                  3. t-12
                    t-12 5 January 2021 18: 06
                    0
                    during the war, with their savings, tanks and planes were built
                    During the war, market prices for food skyrocketed. Therefore, the peasants and artels received huge incomes from over-planned (traded on the market) products.
                    1. SARANCHA1976
                      SARANCHA1976 6 January 2021 01: 52
                      0
                      That is, before the war, they lived poorly, but in a couple of years the Second World War welded up and the village went to dance?
                      1. t-12
                        t-12 6 January 2021 12: 06
                        0
                        Well done, yes. This peasant who bought the plane, he traded honey. How much did honey cost in 1942?
                      2. SARANCHA1976
                        SARANCHA1976 7 January 2021 02: 10
                        0
                        This peasant was a honey dealer, yes. Only he traded honey before the war, and he was not dispossessed because he did not belong to the class of exploiters and earned this not small money by his labor. And about the money for the equipment .. so Golovaty is one of .. and how many workshops and institutions were thrown off?
                        You can imagine on the plane the inscription "to pilot Yastrebkov from the bourgeois Deripaska", so I can't
              2. bubalik
                bubalik 3 January 2021 12: 26
                +2
                grandfather, already on the paternal side

                ,,, that's the fate of the person abandoned.
                1. parusnik
                  parusnik 3 January 2021 12: 37
                  +8
                  And if we also clarify that the paternal line from the village of Sidelnikovo, Omsk Region, which was the first to rise against Kolchak, opposed for a long time and was drowned in blood ...
              3. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 3 January 2021 14: 36
                +4
                I was punished and exiled to Poti for settlement,

                This is the first time I've heard of such a link. Usually - Solovki, Kazakhstan, Magadan ... (from the perestroika "Ogonyok")
                1. parusnik
                  parusnik 3 January 2021 14: 55
                  +3
                  According to Ogonyok magazine, a really strange link. smile I remember a postcard with a view of Poti from my grandfather, but it is not in our family archive, some of the relatives have left it. Such a color, colored black and white photo, with inscriptions in Georgian and Russian: Greetings from Poti, landscape some. My father, when the collapse of the Union began, said that it was good that then they did not move to their father in Georgia.
                  1. Aviator_
                    Aviator_ 3 January 2021 14: 59
                    +3
                    Yes, I have no doubt about your grandfather's exile in Poti, probably, they looked at his specialty and looked at applications from different places, so they sent him to Poti.
                    1. parusnik
                      parusnik 3 January 2021 15: 44
                      +3
                      Probably it was. I did not specify. Mal was then. He asked what they could have told, and what I could remember.
                2. SARANCHA1976
                  SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 14: 56
                  +1
                  There was a gradation of the kulaks, not very smeared were sent in general to neighboring regions and there were the bulk of such
              4. vladcub
                vladcub 4 January 2021 14: 53
                +1
                Lesha, I agree: "not everything was so simple." My father was, was kaktivist and went dekulak. When I read books about kulaks and asked to tell about it. He told me: "half of the activists should have been shot at once: there was a lot of arbitrariness." When Kaganovich took up koliktevizatsiya in the Kuban, he let down plans: how many fists there should be
                My grandfather gave an example: the real handbook (as he called the kulaks) was not touched, but a random person was put into fists. And there are many such examples.
          2. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid 4 January 2021 12: 36
            +1
            hi very interesting story, Alexey. The fate of your relatives along with the history of the country. A book like that.
  • nikvic46
    nikvic46 3 January 2021 06: 08
    +4
    Nilin's novel "Cruelty" described the case of the capture of bandits. About Venka, who took part in this operation, the journalist embellished - "With a clear Komsomol gaze .." After this article, Venka tore up the newspaper and growled - "I would kill him, this hack." Time has passed, but still people "with a clear Komsomol gaze" denounce both embezzlers and people who cannot enter a new rhythm of life. This world was created, first the Word. ...
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 3 January 2021 06: 12
      +3
      Haven't read The Cruelty for a long time.

      And how the new world is created, and the old one gives up its positions - everyone experienced it on their own skin. And a separate question is the "first disciples" of the new world.
    2. bober1982
      bober1982 3 January 2021 08: 53
      +1
      Quote: nikvic46
      this world was created - first the Word

      Early there was the Word ...
      And, this is not a minor grammatical error.
  • antivirus
    antivirus 3 January 2021 06: 35
    +7
    There was a petty-bourgeois village - the city became petty-bourgeois. The level of the urban subculture has dropped sharply. And for some reason no one really thought about the consequences of these


    - and we live - in the 90s "came in large numbers" from the villages. still Russian-speaking and a little North Caucasus.
    in 00-g there are already a lot of rednecks of SKav and SrAsia. etc.
    It is necessary to study the experience of Western Europe - they accept millions of savages, civilize them, give a start in life, and so on.
    AM Merkel will soon be free - she should be invited as an adviser on interethnic cooperation, coexistence and economic tolerance.



    but it is better to change the upbringing of the indigenous population (to increase the birth rate)
    And how to "break off" TV and the media?
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 3 January 2021 09: 33
      +5
      It is necessary to study the experience of Western Europe - they accept millions of savages, civilize them, give a start in life, and so on.

      A test for subtle trolling!
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 3 January 2021 17: 07
        +1
        who wanted - came to close in spirit, someone already needs a freebie ...
        many African- and BBW-Christians are actually joining the orderly ranks of the builders of democracy.
        otherwise they would not have accepted them ... the experiment, apparently more successful ... was .. now a failure (?)
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 3 January 2021 18: 18
          +1
          who wanted - came to close in spirit

          Well, you really bent it completely. What is common in the spirit of a Libyan refugee and a Frenchman (of course, if he is not a clochard)? Besides the thirst for freebies, there is nothing there, but why the West accepts them is a great mystery.
          1. antivirus
            antivirus 3 January 2021 21: 12
            0
            began - with the independence of Algeria and other colonies in the early 60s.
            there were refugees and whites and arabs
            it was emigration by polit. views and cultural differences with the victorious revolutions in Africa - gave rise to hope for multiculturalism.
            as a "Russian exodus".
            I do not follow the details, but for 20 years they have been writing about "free emigrants".
            Everything depended on the teachers - the ascetics brought up in the spirit of love for the metropolis.
            there were no such teachers (whites) in Africa-consumerism won-THIS IS THE DEFEAT OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION. as we do.
    2. SARANCHA1976
      SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 12: 12
      +2
      It is necessary to study the experience of Western Europe - they accept millions of savages, civilize them, give a start in life, and so on. And they sit in their districts on benefits .. do not carry scales dear
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 3 January 2021 17: 11
        0
        you need to see the statistics - who gets how much,
        HOW MUCH IS SPENDING ON FOREIGNERS - HOW MUCH GDP IS ADDED, WHAT IS THE GROWTH OF "SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS" IN CHILDREN (2-3 GENERATIONS) who come in large numbers.
        the owners of the EU countries have money and methods - they reeducate them. and how many stones are thrown into cars and are sitting on the allowance, is it a% error or pulls the whole project into a hole?
        1. Oprichnik
          Oprichnik 4 January 2021 22: 21
          0
          In the Federal Republic of Germany, the Turks for 3-4 generations, who were born there, remain Turks, study in Turkish schools, in which each lesson in the morning begins with singing a hymn with the following words: "I am a Turk, my heart is made of steel and I follow the path of Allah ... ". When it's time for a Turk guy to get married, he goes to Turkey in search of a bride - poorly educated, but not spoiled by European miasma
          1. antivirus
            antivirus 4 January 2021 22: 36
            0
            two world wars thinned and changed the subconscious of the Germans
            30 years ago it seemed that they are temporarily accepting them to replenish their ranks, now it is for population and GDP growth.

            globalization was invented by smart people ... it is not the French or the Germans who build their business and the countries - but TNCs.
            it will be beneficial - they will drive out all the Turks and their wives with grandchildren.
  • Comrade
    Comrade 3 January 2021 06: 44
    14
    And here are the data on the population of the USSR in 1940: 195 people. And how much grain was harvested is known. Let's divide and find out how much grain was produced per capita. I got 392 pounds.

    a) The population of Canada in 1940 amounted to 11 682 000 people, the wheat harvest in 1940 was 14 701 811,04 tons (in terms of bushels), i.e. 1 258,5 tons per capita (see Statistics Canada website).
    b) The author says that in 1940 per capita in the Soviet Union was collected 0,606 tons (37 pounds).
    c) in 1940 In terms of grain harvest per capita, Canada was ahead of the USSR in two times (Divide 1 258,5 kg by 606 kg, we get 2,07).

    And now let's compare: in 1913 ... in terms of grain harvest per capita, the United States was two times ahead of Tsarist Russia, and Canada - four times.


    So let's compare 1913 and 1940.
    В 1913 Canada was ahead of Russia in four times, and in 1940 Canada was ahead of the USSR in two times.
    At the same time, the author laments that by 1940
    in the USSR, at the cost of colossal costs, tears and blood, the yield has become only slightly more than it was in tsarist times!

    As they say, no comment.
    1. SARANCHA1976
      SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 12: 18
      +3
      Well, why without, under the tsar, an ordinary peasant had an average of 16 poods of bread left, and this is just barely enough so as not to die, the master sold the rest, do not distort the numbers, do not divide the total figure by all.
      1. Comrade
        Comrade 3 January 2021 16: 36
        +1
        So do not distort.
        You have dealt with the master who sold the bread, which was obtained by hard work by a simple peasant.
        Now is the time to deal with the Canadian wheat.
        The approach is the same strict - how much did the farmer have left?
        I have the official statistics at hand, it will be interesting to compare it with your version.
        1. SARANCHA1976
          SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 18: 07
          -1
          You again step on the rake "they have the same as ours, why are they better" here I was not the only one who commented on the climate. If you think that Canada is covered in snow and it is as bad to give birth there as it is here, then you are mistaken.
          1. Comrade
            Comrade 3 January 2021 19: 50
            0
            Since you are authoritatively arguing about the Canadian climate, can you tell us which city or province you wish to live in?
            Wheat is grown on the prairie, the climate is harsh. I have lived in Canada for a long time, and your patronizing and instructive tone brings only a smile. We don't have Albert or Saskatchewan outside the window, the climate is milder, and yet today is minus thirteen.
            There is a great saying in the topic, "Canada has great weather for a whole year, and only three months you can't play hockey."
            1. SARANCHA1976
              SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 20: 38
              0
              I do not patronize and do not teach, I am always happy with sane arguments and facts. If you live in Canada could not lay out if there is an area of ​​arable land, it would be interesting to compare.
    2. antivirus
      antivirus 3 January 2021 17: 15
      0
      about Peter 1: "the price of the reforms is terrible, BUT THE PROSPECT OF TRANSFORMATION WAS GREAT ..". and it seems .... "dreams (?) have come true"
      fact -Russia lagged behind and several times by jerk (to a break) caught up with the average level in the world.
      In the 60s, near Savasleika (Kulebaksky district NNoble) dMyza, there were still kerosene stoves, and Gagarin had already flown into Space.
  • Moore
    Moore 3 January 2021 07: 23
    +9
    It would be interesting to find out in the end of this series of articles how the respected author sees himself (and whether he sees) an alternative to the path that our country took with Stalin.
    Some here have already outlined one way: there would be no Great Patriotic War if Father Tsar Alexei sat on the throne. Electrification would have taken place by itself, industries that had not been seen before in the Republic of Ingushetia would also appear, and a free farmer, sober, would sit on a carved heap in velvet trousers and cambric onuchs, the kids fed up with A.S. I read Pushkin, but praised the Tsar's father. And the despicable Austrian pile of canvases would never have dared in his life on the idea of ​​Drang nach Osten ...
    But who am I, a pitiful absorber of what has been created by others, a disciple of disciples, to indicate to the creators ...
    1. kalibr
      3 January 2021 08: 44
      +3
      Quote: Moore
      It would be interesting to find out in the end of this series of articles how the respected author sees himself (and whether he sees) an alternative to the path that our country took with Stalin.

      Does not see. In a peasant country better than what could have been.
    2. SARANCHA1976
      SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 12: 19
      -1
      They are worn with RI like an icon
    3. vladcub
      vladcub 4 January 2021 15: 05
      +1
      "Father Tsar Alexei" the Tsarevich was in poor health and most likely there would have been a Regency Council, at best, and most likely Mikhail2
      Regarding the Second World War, with a pitchfork on the water, it is written: Hitlel was rushing about with the living space, and where to capture it was PURPLE. It is unlikely that the "king-father" saved from the war. This is all from the category: not science fiction "
  • bober1982
    bober1982 3 January 2021 08: 06
    -2
    The aforementioned and quoted Mayakovsky finished his poetic activity, according to M. Tsvetaeva's apt expression, with a lyrical shot.
    Vladimir Vladimirovich himself is known not only as a fighter against the bourgeoisie, but also gained fame as the author of texts on a peasant theme with anti-religious content, he was a noble atheist.
    As an active fighter against the bourgeoisie, Mayakovsky became famous for his struggle and mockery of the New Year tree and New Year's holidays. Everywhere he managed to mock the Church, and the tradesman, and over the Christmas tree.
    The lyrical shot became the natural result of the entire stormy poetic activity of the former futurist.
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 3 January 2021 08: 09
      +1
      The lyrical shot became the natural result of the entire stormy poetic activity of the former futurist.
      Many famous poets are out of this world ... God gave them the gift of poetry and they start to freak out ... I don't understand them ... they are very tender in their feelings ... they just shoot. what
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 3 January 2021 08: 16
        +5
        "Poets walk with their heels on the edge of a knife
        And they cut their barefoot souls into blood ”(c).
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 3 January 2021 14: 44
          +2
          "Poets walk with their heels on the edge of a knife
          And cut their barefoot souls into blood "(c)

          I, of course, respect Vysotsky for a number of his works, but this is a common self-PR. By the way, if in this way they "cut souls", it means that the soul has gone into their heels. From feelings ("The Marriage of Balzaminov")
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 3 January 2021 15: 07
            +2
            And Yesenin:

            “Scar your delicate skin,
            To caress other people's souls with the blood of feelings ”.

            PR is characteristic of many poets.
            The hermit saints are silent.
  • mmaxx
    mmaxx 3 January 2021 08: 30
    +8
    It is not clear what the article is about. Although I now understood: whatever you do, you will be guilty. And the one who does nothing will stigmatize flaws from the couch and will be good. Conclusion: a good person is one who does nothing. Bad: the one who at least started doing something.
    And we all know that all scenarios are much better than what actually happened. The truth is only in words ...
    1. SARANCHA1976
      SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 12: 23
      +4
      a good person is someone who does nothing .. even more likely a good person is someone who does nothing but criticizes everyone and gives "good" advice;)
  • evgen1221
    evgen1221 3 January 2021 08: 47
    -1
    And whose article is the author is not specified.
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 3 January 2021 09: 00
      +4
      The beginning and end of the peasant civilization. Today, dear readers of VO, before you, is the fourth material of our "peasant cycle". ....
      Author:
      Vyacheslav Shpakovsky
      The beginning and end of the peasant civilization. Today is the fifth article on the topic of the end of the peasant civilization. ...
      Formal logic hints ...
      1. evgen1221
        evgen1221 3 January 2021 11: 56
        +1
        Hints but does not override author signatures - for new users
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 3 January 2021 11: 57
          +1
          kalibr (Vyacheslav) Today, 10:42
          +1

          Quote: Aviator_
          The note is clearly Shpakovsky, but without a signature. Did the author switch to anonymous work, or was he so framed by VO?

          I forgot, Sergei, to press the button and the whole thing. There is no need for conspiracy ...
  • Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 3 January 2021 09: 04
    +1
    You're lying, Shpakovsky !.
  • Moskovit
    Moskovit 3 January 2021 09: 06
    +2
    Why would a respected author use such mossy clichés to describe these dramatic events? We are not on BBC or Discovery or Ukrainian historians. To put it simply: the USSR wanted to become an industrial country. The peasants were to become workers. Or who would stand at the bench? Who would go to defend the gains of socialism? Why just kill the peasants like cockroaches.
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 3 January 2021 09: 25
      +5
      Quote: Moskovit
      Why just kill the peasants like cockroaches.

      In general, "as a class" does not, in principle, provide for physical elimination.
      1. Moskovit
        Moskovit 3 January 2021 09: 37
        0
        Based on the material is physical. Hunger. Links
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 3 January 2021 09: 42
          +4
          Quote: Moskovit
          Based on the material is physical. Hunger. Links

          Well, this is from the "material" .... Once again, in fact, only Zemsky actually managed to "communicate" with the archives .. And if according to the "documents" - "the elimination of the kulaks as a class" ..
          1. tasha
            tasha 3 January 2021 11: 25
            +1
            In his speech, Comrade Stalin said: “Now dispossession in areas of continuous collectivization is no longer a simple administrative measure. , you cannot let him into the collective farm. It is impossible, since he is the sworn enemy of the collective farm movement .. ".
            Where do you think the kulaks and their families, robbed and driven out of their homes, should have gone?
            1. mat-vey
              mat-vey 3 January 2021 11: 47
              +3
              Well, some of the directors went, who became famous throughout the world as a gunsmith ..
              1. tasha
                tasha 3 January 2021 12: 00
                -2
                And the other three million people?
                1. mat-vey
                  mat-vey 3 January 2021 12: 14
                  +7
                  And don't you want to worry about the fate of the other 122 million? Or again - we can do it, but why? And yes, it is common for a person to remember insults and humiliations, as well as careerists, no one has canceled.
                  1. tasha
                    tasha 3 January 2021 12: 37
                    -2
                    request Calmer, calmer ..
                    "The forest is being cut - the chips are flying"? You just need to accept, without hysterics, that during collectivization, the Soviet government and personally Comrade Stalin could not or did not want to solve the problem of wealthy peasants - the so-called. kulaks otherwise than through robbery, eviction and, as a result, starvation of hundreds of thousands of people ...
                    1. mat-vey
                      mat-vey 3 January 2021 12: 41
                      +5
                      Quote: tasha
                      You just need to accept, without hysterics,

                      You just need to accept without hysterics that the kulaks did not care about the country and the rest of the population for the sake of their own enrichment .. I wonder if the Germans would accept everyone or only the most notorious entrepreneurs?
                      1. tasha
                        tasha 3 January 2021 12: 49
                        -1
                        How do you know if they didn't care or not? You so easily recorded three million Soviet citizens as possible (!) Traitors ...
                      2. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 3 January 2021 12: 56
                        +4
                        Quote: tasha
                        How do you know if they didn't care or not?

                        From the history ...
                        Quote: tasha
                        You so easily recorded three million Soviet citizens as possible (!) Traitors ...

                        Nah, it was hard for me ... But sitting on the neck of your neighbor is probably easy.
                      3. tasha
                        tasha 3 January 2021 13: 01
                        0
                        Tell me, why do you need this? With such fanaticism you do not want to admit that any government, any system can have erroneous decisions, that at the same time you are ready to write nasty things and abominations about your ancestors? Or are you so sure that among these millions there was no one of your relatives? I understand, isolated cases, but we are talking about millions!
                      4. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 3 January 2021 13: 05
                        +1
                        Quote: tasha
                        With such fanaticism you do not want to admit that any power, any system can have erroneous decisions,

                        What is the mistake of collectivization and industrialization, is that you are alive?
                      5. tasha
                        tasha 3 January 2021 13: 06
                        0
                        Once again: “You just need to accept, without hysterics, that during collectivization, the Soviet government and Comrade Stalin personally could not or did not want to solve the problem of wealthy peasants - the so-called kulaks, except through robbery, eviction and, as a result, starvation of hundreds of thousands of people ... "
                      6. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 3 January 2021 13: 11
                        +1
                        Quote: tasha
                        Once again: “You just need to accept, without hysterics, that during collectivization, the Soviet government and Comrade Stalin personally could not or did not want to solve the problem of wealthy peasants - the so-called kulaks, except through robbery, eviction and, as a result, starvation of hundreds of thousands of people ... "

                        And you write something about "fanaticism"?
                        And also the problem of the owners of factories, newspapers and ships.
                      7. tasha
                        tasha 3 January 2021 13: 27
                        +1
                        And you write something about "fanaticism"?
                        We have to remind what we are talking about. Otherwise you rush your thoughts back and forth ..
                        And also the problem of the owners of factories, newspapers and ships.
                        Well, this problem was solved during the revolution.
                        An interesting question. After all, NEP is not only agriculture, but also industry, trade, restaurants and cinemas. How was the fate of, for example, small traders? I only remember from The Golden Calf: “I was terribly taxed .. In the end, the strange factory of private traders collapsed, and Karl Ukusinen drove off into the darkness in a cab, taking away his goods that were not in tune with the era. . Titanyuk drank himself to death. Glazius-Schenker left for the watch collective "New Time" "...
                      8. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 3 January 2021 13: 31
                        -1
                        Quote: tasha
                        Otherwise you rush your thoughts back and forth ..

                        For example?
                        Quote: tasha
                        Well, this problem was solved during the revolution.

                        Only part - fists, this is its other component.
                      9. tasha
                        tasha 3 January 2021 13: 36
                        0
                        For example?
                        Well, I don’t like poking my nose, you’re not a dog, not a cat.
                        I mean the dispossessed, the exiled and the dead, and you are traitors, careerists, steamers ..
                      10. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 3 January 2021 13: 48
                        +2
                        Quote: tasha
                        traitors, careerists, steamers ..

                        It would be interesting for me to read ...
                        Just don’t talk about the three million registered as traitors ...
                        Although reducing grain production for its own benefit is still patriotism and strengthening the country's defense capability.
                      11. tasha
                        tasha 3 January 2021 14: 09
                        0
                        So it's kind of like your comments. belay
                        Have you read Comrade Stalin's speech?
                      12. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 3 January 2021 14: 18
                        +3
                        Quote: tasha
                        So it's kind of like your comments.

                        But in your interpretation ...
                        The kulaks are the same capitalists only in the countryside.


                        And what is the speech? What is wrong with it? That people, having shown their obvious rejection of the state policy being pursued, allow them to do more nasty things?
                        What are your claims to industrialization and collectivization? That the country was able to survive?
                      13. tasha
                        tasha 3 January 2021 14: 28
                        -2
                        Once again, in order. A decision was made on collectivization and dispossession. The Soviet government and Comrade Stalin personally could not or did not want to solve the problem of wealthy peasants - the so-called. kulaks otherwise than through robbery, eviction and, as a result, starvation of hundreds of thousands of people ...
                        What's the question?
                      14. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 3 January 2021 14: 38
                        +5
                        The author of the aforementioned article forgets that it is impossible to oust the class of the kulaks, as a class, by means of tax and any other restrictions, leaving in the hands of this class the instruments of production with the right to free use of land and keeping in our practice the law on hiring labor in the countryside, the law on rent, the prohibition dispossession. The author forgets that with the policy of limiting the exploiting tendencies of the kulaks, one can count on ousting only individual groups of the kulaks, which does not contradict, but, on the contrary, presupposes the preservation for the time being, until the time of the kulaks as a class. To oust the kulaks as a class, the policy of restricting and ousting its individual units is not enough. In order to oust the kulaks as a class, it is necessary to crush the resistance of this class in open battle and deprive it of the productive sources of its existence and development (free use of land, instruments of production, rent, the right to hire labor, etc.). This is a turn towards the policy of liquidating the kulaks as a class. Without this, talk about ousting the kulaks as a class is empty chatter, pleasing and beneficial only to the Right deviators. Without this, no serious, let alone complete, collectivization of the countryside is inconceivable. This is well understood by the poor and middle peasants of our village, who are crushing the kulaks and carrying out complete collectivization. Apparently, some of our comrades do not yet understand this.
                      15. tasha
                        tasha 3 January 2021 15: 34
                        -1
                        In your own words, can you explain the meaning of such a large quote and why did you bring it?
                      16. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 3 January 2021 15: 35
                        +1
                        Well, you talked about Stalin? Well, here's his quote on the topic.
                      17. tasha
                        tasha 3 January 2021 15: 37
                        -1
                        Yeah buddy ... Okay, good luck.
                      18. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 3 January 2021 15: 39
                        +1
                        And what was the answer to your question about Stalin, Stalin himself did not please?
                      19. tasha
                        tasha 3 January 2021 15: 44
                        -1
                        Look, you are an absolutely amazing person ...
                        Are you sure I had a question?
                        “You just need to accept, without hysterics, that during collectivization, the Soviet government and Comrade Stalin personally could not or did not want to solve the problem of wealthy peasants - the so-called kulaks, except through robbery, eviction and, as a result, starvation of hundreds of thousands of people ... "

                        If you disagree with something, just write: I disagree, because ... Okay?
                      20. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 3 January 2021 15: 51
                        +3
                        What well"? What has been said in historical documents what and why?
                        You need to accept without hysterics that Comrade Stalin and the Soviet government solved the problem of kulaks, but they did not agree without repression.
                      21. tasha
                        tasha 3 January 2021 15: 53
                        0
                        You and I seem to be not at the disco and you are not a girl. What are you spinning?
                      22. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 3 January 2021 15: 57
                        +3
                        You mean: You just need to accept without hysterics that the kulaks did not care about the country and the rest of the population for their own enrichment ..?
                      23. tasha
                        tasha 3 January 2021 16: 03
                        0
                        No, I'm not talking about that.
                        Let's finish. I already seem to begin to consider you not only amazing, but also enchanting. Agree, this will be wrong ..
                      24. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 3 January 2021 16: 06
                        +2
                        Quote: tasha
                        I already seem to begin to consider you not only amazing, but also enchanting.

                        And what others may consider you do not care? Or as with fists - we can, but we are for what?
    2. SARANCHA1976
      SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 15: 54
      +5
      Comrade Stalin scattered everything absolutely clearly and succinctly. And then I don't see a message here to kill or extinct the class of kulaks. The elimination of the kulaks as a class is the same as the elimination of illiteracy, someone did not offer to kill all those who were not literate.
    3. mat-vey
      mat-vey 3 January 2021 16: 07
      0
      Quote: SARANCHA1976
      And I don't see a message here to kill or extinct the class of kulaks.

      Maybe your vision is not correct, but the person is correct and he sees what you need to see?
    4. SARANCHA1976
      SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 16: 59
      -1
      A person sees everything as it is convenient for him to look. History shows that everything went wrong.
    5. mat-vey
      mat-vey 3 January 2021 17: 06
      +1
      Quote: SARANCHA1976
      A person sees everything as it is convenient for him to look. History shows that everything went wrong.

      Well, I mean it and kind of hinted ..)))
    6. depressant
      depressant 3 January 2021 18: 03
      +1
      Well, I read this titanic dialogue ...
      I have no words! Colleagues, no one killed these kulaks! Except for pests. The country was undergoing a powerful industrialization, workers were needed, there were many opportunities to get a job in the city, to find a place for oneself. From 1927 to 1930, 12,9 million people left the village - the fields were not sown! That was the problem: three million kulaks - but this is an insignificant number of the population, which is absorbed at once during the massive industrialization of the country. Do you seriously believe that everything was built exclusively by the hands of prisoners? ))) The country was a continuous construction site and a production workshop! Rest assured, fists were attached.

      But now there is unemployment, and it is a real problem due to the lack of industrialization, clamping down on farming, as well as small and medium-sized businesses. As they say, feel the difference.
    7. mat-vey
      mat-vey 3 January 2021 18: 09
      +2
      Quote: depressant
      The country was undergoing a powerful industrialization, workers were needed

      Collectivization began before industrialization, as a struggle against the capitalist component in the countryside.
    8. depressant
      depressant 3 January 2021 19: 01
      0
      Collectivization was carried out from 1928 to 1937. Industrialization began only a year later - in 1929. So, the kulaks had a place to settle down. Moreover, taking into account their resourcefulness, business acumen. Surely they quickly restored their well-being, if, of course, they did not toil with foolishness. And they raised uprisings, yes. It was with this very foolishness that they sent themselves and their families to hell and right on his horns. I do not think that all the kulaks of the more than a million rebels were brutally dealt with. But any state has the right to defend itself. And all the time he does it cruelly. Still. If not, it loses.
      Here, for example, take ours, the current one. What rights did the police get before the New Year? Take an interest. When the land reform begins to unfold, I think it will not remain idle.
    9. mat-vey
      mat-vey 3 January 2021 19: 10
      +2
      Quote: depressant
      I do not think that all the kulaks of the more than a million rebels were dealt with cruelly.

      This depended on the degree of maturity of local leaders.
    10. zenion
      zenion 3 January 2021 21: 55
      +3
      depressant (lyudmila yakovlevna kuznetsova). Here, some do not at all understand that the Bolsheviks saved the country twice: during the Civil War and during the Great Patriotic War, World War II. Many do not realize that if there were no Bolsheviks, the bourgeois had already made a revolution and the tsar had been overthrown, they no longer knew what to do next. And at that time the Japanese were already in the Far East, the Americans were already helping the bourgeoisie of Russia, they sent troops to the north of Russia, ostensibly to help the allies, and France and England began to help Russia from the south. The French climbed to the south of Ukraine, and the nadlichians to the Caucasus to oil. This is what the bourgeoisie would do, who happily did from Russia what they did now. But the country was liberated by the Bolsheviks. Of course they did it wrong. These are the hordes that drove the West-created Hitler to suicide. How can this be forgiven? But then the child of the devil Labeled and then it went like in a song - you don't need a knife for a fool, you will lie to him in three boxes and do with him what you like!
    11. depressant
      depressant 4 January 2021 00: 17
      -1
      Colleague, the detractors of the Soviet period of our country have come to the point of complete loss of brakes - Yegor Gaidar is going to be reburied at the Kremlin wall. For it is uncomfortable for them inside the Kremlin, the feudal liberals, surrounded by Soviet coffins, they cringe, scoundrels. They want to drag their own people, camouflage what is terrible for them. Our marshals are buried in the middle of nowhere, and here, to the Kremlin, they collect evil spirits.
  • SARANCHA1976
    SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 20: 29
    0
    Understood - accepted
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 3 January 2021 14: 48
    +3
    After all, NEP is not only agriculture, but also industry, trade, restaurants and cinemas. How was the fate of, for example, small traders?

    Are you seriously sure that the NEPmen will provide funds for serious production - Magnitka, DneproGES, Kuznetsk and Komsomolsk-on-Amur?
    NEPman is a production at the level of a candle factory in Samara, no more.
  • tasha
    tasha 3 January 2021 14: 52
    -3
    Are you seriously sure
    No, this is your thought.
    I just became curious about the fate of "production at the level of a candle factory in Samara" when the NEP was curtailed.
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 3 January 2021 15: 02
    +6
    This level of production was reorganized into an artel for the production of candles. In my deep childhood (60s, the very beginning) I still found watercolors produced by some artel.
  • tasha
    tasha 3 January 2021 15: 26
    0
    Interesting, thanks.
  • SARANCHA1976
    SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 14: 42
    +5
    You have a slightly one-sided perception of the fist as a class, in your opinion they are innocent workmen, they worked from dawn to night without arms and legs and fell to sleep. But in fact, half of the village owed this toiler and worked for him.
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 3 January 2021 16: 28
      +2
      Quote: SARANCHA1976
      But in fact, half of the village owed this toiler and worked for him.

      And he didn’t care that he was starving or robbing someone. And whoever was against could simply shoot.
    2. SARANCHA1976
      SARANCHA1976 3 January 2021 18: 02
      0
      They drank
  • tatra
    tatra 3 January 2021 13: 39
    +4
    And they simply ceased to be fists, praised by you, enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people.
    1. tasha
      tasha 3 January 2021 14: 11
      -6
      Irina, let's agree so. You do not react to my comments. I'm on yours. Good? You are welcome...
      1. tatra
        tatra 3 January 2021 14: 26
        +6
        Ha, and so, my comments do not fit into your "ideology", the enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people, according to which your Bolsheviks-Communists did nothing but destroy "the most innocent, the best, most hard-working, gene pool and the flower of the nation, salt and sugar of the earth "?
        1. tasha
          tasha 3 January 2021 14: 30
          -4
          I have something to answer, I have something to object, and I even agree with you in many ways. I'm just sick of your comments. Literally, before vomiting ...
          The topic is closed.
        2. tatra
          tatra 3 January 2021 14: 42
          0
          A classic example of the enemies of the USSR and the Soviet people, who for 70 years under Soviet power and 30 years after their seizure of the USSR are angry AGAINST the communists and their supporters, but none of them is able to honestly and adequately discuss the history of their country. And who go into hysterics when they are called enemies of the communists, trying to cowardly pretend that they themselves do not exist, and that they did not do what they did to their country and people during the Soviet period and after their capture of the USSR.
  • kalibr
    3 January 2021 13: 36
    -3
    Sholokhov wrote about this in his letter to Stalin, where did they go ... Not all became gunsmiths and directors, not all.
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 3 January 2021 13: 53
      +2
      Well, not all were innocent sheep. Although with fasting knowledge it is easy to talk about mistakes and missed opportunities.
      1. tatra
        tatra 3 January 2021 14: 37
        +2