Military Review

"Thundering" and others. Will our fleet get effective close range ships?

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The end of the year brought the conclusion of the long-awaited contract for the corvettes of ASZ JSC. Fleet adopted head corvettes - 20385 "Thundering" from UKSK and MF RLC "Zaslon" and "Hero of Russia Aldar Tsidenzhapov" of project 20380 (with a new MF RLK "Zaslon" in a reduced configuration and the old composition of weapons). Accepted. Despite the most serious flaws in the radar (and in fact, in its combat capability).


Note: there are good reasons to believe that the real results of the firing of "Aldar Tsidenzhapov" at the RM-120 were very far from DIMK's statements.

However, it is obvious that there is

"High decision" "accept ships as they are",

simply because the fleet has a catastrophic situation with the ship composition (especially at the Pacific Fleet).

At the same time, we have real (alas, unused) opportunities for mass serial construction of quite effective and combat-ready ships.

Public dispute with the Navy


Logical questions arise:

“How did we come to this life?

Where is our military science?

And where is the Main Command of the Navy? "

After all, its purpose is clearly spelled out, including on the website of the RF Ministry of Defense?

The main tasks of the Main Command of the Navy: organization and implementation of measures for the construction and development of the Navy.


And here are their two responses to the author's appeals to the RF Ministry of Defense:

"Thundering" and others. Will our fleet get effective close range ships?

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Details of this correspondence and its content - in the article “A victory of common sense: the corvettes are back. Bye for the pacific ".

Obviously, at some point, someone made an "informed decision" that projects 20380 and 20385 should go to history... And now we see a somersault - they will be built again. However, after losing "nowhere" for almost five years. But this is a trifle, right?

After recent contracts for new corvettes of projects 20380 and 20385 (instead of the scam from 20386), as they say,

"Facts on the face",

namely: there is no scientifically verified shipbuilding policy in Russia.

Here you can remember the scandalous story with the cancellation of the Navy series of corvettes OVR in favor of extremely weak patrol ships of unknown purpose:

Instead, it is planned to create patrol ships. The Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Viktor Chirkov, stated this in a blitz interview to the Central Naval Portal.

The main command does not see any prospects in the creation of ships previously designated as the "OVR Corvette". One of the main tasks of the OVR is to ensure the protection and defense of the naval forces in the areas of naval bases and in the territories adjacent to them.

This task is now performed by coastal surveillance systems, stationary sonar stations and coastal missile and artillery troops armed with anti-ship missiles of various ranges, as well as anti-submarine and strike Aviation.

The most piquant thing about this rejection of the OVR corvettes is not even how the Navy once again "changed its boots in a jump," but that the declared stationary (effective) GAS did not exist then, and is not now. And it will not be in the medium term. Just at that moment this topic was very actively lobbied by a person,

"Who opened the doors of offices with his foot."

These are just a few examples of the absence of any thoughtful construction of the Navy. And a demonstration that decisions on the fleet are made in a "fire order" and often in the form

"The convulsion of naval thought."

From the fresh we can note the meeting and display of weapons to the Supreme Commander-in-Chief in Sevastopol a year ago. For example, a project 20386 ship with a mythical (later it will be shown why this MF RLK with the current organization has no prospects for fine-tuning) "enhanced armament".


Model of an enlarged corvette of the project 20386 at the VGK show in Sevastopol in December 2019 Photo: shoehanger.livejournal.com

This project (enlarged 20386) is already in the dimension of frigate 22350 in terms of displacement and number of UKSK. And at the same time it significantly surpasses it in price with many times lower efficiency (and in fact - complete non-combat capability due to the Zaslon radar).

And this is presented to the Supreme Commander-in-Chief under the cameras, and the reporting person directly deceives the Supreme Commander by presenting the Redut air defense missile system on the model as “Caliber”.

Some details known at the time of that show can be found in the article "Are you contemplating an alteration of the 20386 project?"

Two ships in the same tactical weight category? No, the scam was to put the extremely weak and problematic project 20386 into a mass production instead of our really best project of our time - the frigate of project 22350. (And the project 22350 itself was wrapped in the dimension of the notoriously limited-production destroyer of project 22350M).

And this scam (and a real undermining of the combat effectiveness of the fleet and the country's defense) is reported to the Navy to the Supreme!

The catch here is that Zvezda-reductor LLC can produce either 6RP gearboxes for project 20386, or P055 gearboxes for a frigate of project 22350. And you have to choose. For some time, everything went to the fact that for the sake of 20386, not only series 20380 and 20385 would be killed, but also frigates 22350.

Accordingly, an acute public reaction is needed to all this. So that in the morning from the TV we were suddenly told that, for example, Japan again arranged for us

"Port Arthur with Tsushima",

and together and at once.

But this article is about corvettes. All attempts of "naval thought" and the High Command to create a combat-ready grouping of new ships in the near sea zone suffered a complete fiasco. The constructed new corvettes of the 20380 project have finally begun to actively go, including to the distant sea zone. However, their real combat "value" (in quotation marks) is up to the first enemy aircraft or submarine.

Once again, it is necessary to speak and write about all this. Although the phrase

"To sound the alarm".

Before it's too late.

In the above dispute in absentia with the Navy, it was far from the naval commanders who were right. Simply because there was an objective analysis of the situation on the part of their opponents. What was the position of the Navy? Comments are superfluous.

Under the new contracts (as previously announced), the installation of the Zaslon RLK MF is a tragic mistake of the Navy. A mistake, for which the Navy and the Ministry of Defense are now abundantly paying those interested in this scam with budget money (despite the fact that for a number of extremely necessary items (for example, for effective air targets), the fleet has not just poverty, but poverty).

Further the price will be different - blood and many human lives. Disruption of the fleet's fulfillment of its missions as intended. And inflicting military defeat on Russia.

MF RLK "Zaslon" will never be brought to the required level of combat effectiveness


Just a quote (dialogue involving) a representative of military science from an organization called in defense industry circles

"Central Research Institute of Shipwreck":

- It seems to me (and not only to me) that by 2025–2028 it will be possible to build the same number of ships of Project 20380 (simplified) as Project 20385/20380 (with Zaslon). For the supply of other components. And the second option has a significantly greater combat stability against air attack weapons.

- When it works as it should. Will it work as it should? Will it work properly ON TIME? This is an important question now.

- I agree.

That is, our military science believes (apparently, without "running on a rake" with the radar of corvettes) that theoretically the option with the IBMK is supposedly better. Alas, these “mriyas” have nothing to do with reality.

With the organization and attitude to the case, which takes place, the MF RLC "Zaslon" will never be brought to the required level of combat effectiveness.

And this is an objective fact. For purely organizational reasons.

Essentially, in an integrated tower-mast structure, they "come together":

- means of detection (and this is the diocese of the Service of radio-technical weapons of the Navy and NITs REV);

- management weapons (Service of missile and artillery weapons of the Navy with the Central Research Institute of VK);

- means of electronic warfare (electronic warfare service of the Navy and NII OSIS);

- communication facilities (Communication Service of the Navy and Communication Research Center).



Formally, communication means are not included in the MF RLK, but in fact they are a single complex with the MF radar (including taking into account the problems of electromagnetic compatibility), since they are located mainly in a single integrated tower-mast structure (IBMK). This question is very difficult, to put it mildly. Previous corvettes had huge communication problems.

Nothing, maybe they will do it (integration of everything in the tower with the provision of real electromagnetic compatibility). In ten years. May be. And while “eating” several tens of billion rubles. This approach is considered the norm today.

As for space communications and target designation from "Zaslon" (shipborne equipment), it is worth quoting one lobbyist of "Zaslon":

In 10 years ... the "Liana" will be finished to a working state.


Fans of "knocking back" and "zirconizing" American AUG should think hard about this.

These truly crooked guys want to work out and "Liana" too. And the Navy should think about an alternative developer and supplier of these tools. Otherwise, "Zircons" will have to be fired like this one looked like in the war 888 -

"Somewhere there at random."

In the realities of the Navy with the IBMK, we have the classic "swan, crayfish and pike" (and this is taking into account the extremely slippery and dubious work performer).

Let us emphasize once again that DIMK's statement about the alleged downing of the RM-120 target by Aldar Tsidenzhapov raises serious doubts.

About the lack of correction of missiles and shooting of the "Thundering" with the "golden tower" of the "Barrier" was earlier:

Corvette 20386. Continuation of the scam

Corvettes that will go into battle

Leaky Fleet Umbrella

Leaky umbrella of the fleet. Technical analysis of the "Thundering" firing .

Why is all this chaos taking place? See the list of nannies above - with so many of them, the child simply cannot but be left without an eye. And, in fact, this is exactly what happened with the corvettes - literally (RLC).

Is there a solution to the organizational problem? There is.

Article "Where is Admiral Evmenov running?" the question was raised about the need to create a submarine warfare Directorate in the Navy:

The presence of acute problems with the construction of submarines, their combat training and the issues of their intended use not only requires remembering and finally implementing the report of Vice-Admiral Chernov, today a much deeper solution is required: the creation of a Submarine Warfare Directorate in the Main Command of the Navy with the separation from special services of the Navy of the corresponding "underwater" units and their subordination to the Department of Submarine Warfare.

The same is necessary in the upper hemisphere ("Office of Surface War"). For the issues there are complex, and they can be resolved only in one bundle. But in the Navy, they are torn apart in different farms (see list). Accordingly, until the farm principle of organization (both administrative and combat, including ship-based) in the Navy is overcome, the fleet is simply unable to satisfactorily organize and manage the creation of something similar to Western integrated tower-mast complexes ( IBMK).

Alas, such tectonic changes are not made on command and in a day. Therefore, the organizational complexity of the development should be linked to the real (and very limited) capabilities of the Navy to provide and accompany them.

With what we have today, even responsible and proactive officers have to wipe themselves off.

A real solution to the problem can only be complex, but in the existing system of the Navy (and the RF Ministry of Defense) this is impossible.

In detail about the harsh realities of our R&D organization -

Our Pentagon Wars. The realities of domestic military R&D " ,

"Our" Pentagon Wars "-2. Development chaos ".

Who could really do this to the IBMK fleet? Only an outstanding leader in the military-industrial complex, and from aviation issues. One who would voluntarily assume upon himself, among other things, “purely naval issues” (as far as they concern). And it is capable of implementing a rigid interface of all contractors within the framework of one and a real working structure.

And it could be not just a Personality (with a capital letter - in terms of personal and professional qualities), but also a person who has both powers and opportunities. Such, for example, could be Yu.I. Bely, General Director of JSC NIIP im. Tikhomirov ". And the Navy was offered this. This option is now closed. Yuri Ivanovich passed away two months ago. Our defense industry complex has suffered a grave loss.

Zaslon JSC? It's not even funny. When a person is appointed as the managing director of an organization that has taken on the development of the "super radar of the XNUMXst century" (and had previously developed only air conditioners), who left behind another large defense industry enterprise "near death", the result can only be disgrace (which DIMK negligently and posted from the shooting of "Thundering").

For comparison, since the beginning of the 2000s. in aviation between NIIP and "Fazotron" there was a tough competition for promising radars for fighters. Formally won the NIIP ("Belka" for the Su-57). However, "Phazotron" did not just breathe down his head, but periodically pulled ahead.

For example, it was Fazotron (in 2010) that made the first real hitting a target with a missile from an AFAR. Against this background, the only and extremely dubious shooting of the "Thundering" from under the golden tower of the "Barrier"

after ten years of “efficient use of generous budgetary funding”,

it's just a shame (not to mention the shooting of "Aldar Tsidenzhapov").

And what about the electronic warfare means of corvettes? Here's what.

The standard complex, intended for corvettes, was brought to the required performance characteristics only on "Gromkom". And then this news really delighted those involved - the electronic warfare complex has earned really well. That, in turn, indicated the prospects for its fine-tuning on other, already built ships.

Delighted? Hold on.

Now from the new corvettes (with the "golden tower") the completed and working complex TK-25 has already been thrown out! For the "golden tower" is electronic warfare too. And these electronic warfare means work in the same way as radar stations.

The fact that the organization of the "golden tower" and its developers have never invented anything in terms of electronic warfare means are trifles! After all, their presentations are so beautiful. Learn. Someday. May be.

In its advertising video "Zaslon" "cheerfully presses" the radar of the AWACS aircraft. The video, of course, was drawn by girls-designers, but according to the developer's technical assignment (JSC "Zaslon").

Apparently, the developers of the "golden tower" of "Zaslon" were slightly unaware that their electronic suppression equipment and AWACS radar ("Hokaya") operate in different frequency ranges? And, accordingly, they have a deliberately zero efficiency for its radar?

There is no need to talk about the complex use of weapons and electronic warfare equipment (with the corresponding mutual influence). It can be confidently asserted that in the corresponding programs and test methods (including state ones) this was beautifully bypassed (and the customer was certainly made guilty for this - with his "swan, cancer and pike").

Of course, they will carry out some tests - somehow it is necessary to report on "effective development". Only now it will have a very distant relation to the real conditions of the battle.

And the fact that a fight is the most difficult complex process, it is better not to remember this,

"There will be no war."

(And everything will be so beautiful at the parades, and custom-made "popular" articles in the "glossy media" will be so cheerful).

Will Zaslon start to shoot down targets? Of course, yes - it will be brought up. Just to

"Report on the use of funds."

Will "Zaslon" be able to repel real raids? With the current organization of work, attitude and leadership - definitely not. Never.

Problems that don't really exist


The first "problem": the radar system.


Development of radar armament for corvettes of project 20380-20385.

On the lead and subsequent ships of the series, a general detection radar "Fourke" of 10 cm range was installed, which for many years became one of the most acute problems of corvettes.

The reasons here are from the general lack of knowledge of the radar (it was brought to a more or less operable state about 10 years after testing the head corvette!), And constructive errors in placement (for example, a "blind sector" at the stern due to shadowing by the mast).

However, the most serious problem turned out to be the "rediscovery" (and which was well known since the early 80s), that the decimeter range has serious problems when working on targets at extremely low altitudes (in the "drive layer" ).

Solvable problems (the same "Aegis", with its 10 cm, flying over the very waves of the PRK "Exocet" sees well, but this requires large energy and hardware costs).

That is, for a ship with one general detection radar, there are great doubts about the advisability of using the decimeter range, especially since there was a very good surveillance centimeter radar "Pozitiv-M", which ensured high accuracy of data output for the use of weapons and excellent work on low-flying targets.

Note. "Positive" is a development of the 80s, moreover, Ukrainian, for serial production transferred to the Typhoon plant (Kaluga), where in the late 90s the development of their domestic line began (in fact, a new radar "Positive-M") which has not stopped until now.

At the same time, the "Positive-M" was guaranteed to be efficient, provided target designation for weapons (including missiles) with the required accuracy, was mass-produced and was originally planned for installation on corvettes.

But then intrigues began.

Without any adequate justification, "Positive-M" was replaced by "Fourke", the problems with which the specialists were initially clear. Let us just recall the previously quoted quote from a specialist:

no one is interested in how, in fact, these undoubtedly excellent missiles will fly, in the absence of a radio correction line and disgusting target designation from "Fourke" ... So to speak, according to the "fire and forget" scheme. About what?! About the goal? Or a rocket? The developers of the air defense missile system diligently bypass all sharp corners of the type: “How will your missile defense system see the target in case of target designation errors in the region of 1 degree? The answer is "He will see" ... and so on.

Vysotsky's enthusiasm for the new tower-mast complex from Thales became a pretext for replacing the problematic Fourke with a domestic tower (IBMK), which already included two surveillance radars: on the top of the mast - a modified Furke 10-cm range and on the edges flat canvases AFAR 3-cm radar (Zaslon's own development).

Of course, two radars (and even more so in different ranges) are better than one. In addition, the stationary placement of 4 AFAR canvases provided very fast movement of the beam within the field of view.

Progress? How to say.

For the capabilities of "Positive-M" were more than enough: both for the use of missiles, and for the control center of a very good artillery radar "Puma".

That is, from the moment the corvettes were designed, we had (and were mass-produced) a range of radars that solved all problems and did not have problems with operability, and with significant modernization potential. The ability to upgrade by means of aggregate replacement is very valuable for maintaining high efficiency of ships during service. Obviously, it is quite possible to replace the old "Positive-M" radar stations with their new modifications in repair (or right in the base), but the re-equipment of old corvettes with "gold" in cost (but actually not working for their intended purpose) "towers" from "Zaslon "Is obviously impossible.

The Corvette is a massive ship. Moreover, the anti-submarine capabilities of the grouping of forces in the near zone require a large number of optimally distributed carriers of search means (ships and helicopters from them). And turning ships into a cash cow to ensure effective use of budget funds by the "right" enterprises is a mistake worse than a crime.

Foreign experience is of interest.

An important point is that Tyles' I-MAST 400 has centimeter-band antennas located on the "tower" as high as possible (because they actually solve the problems of a low-altitude detector, and due to the height, a large range is achieved for such targets), respectively, decimeter radar antennas for I-MAST 400 located below.


IBMK I-MAST 400 on the patrol ship Holland.

When analyzing the composition of the electronic weapons of the most massive modern corvettes of Project 056 of the PRC Navy, which formally have one surveillance radar of the 10-cm range (like the Fourke), attention is drawn to the placement of navigation radars. Based on this, it can be assumed that these radars (as a rule, of the optimal 3-cm range), along with navigation, also solve the problems of a low-altitude detector of air targets in the drive layer.


Radar Corvette 056 Chinese Navy.

Do not shun rotating radars and the US Navy (the first to widely use PAR on ships). On the ships of the US Navy, the rotating radars (range of long centimeters) AN / SPS-77 (V) 1 SeaGIRAFFE, SPQ-9B, TPS-4D are massively in service. Moreover, for example, the SPQ-9B radar will be installed on the destroyers of a new sub-series to increase the efficiency of detecting low-flying targets.

Moreover, formally, the SPQ-9 is the same age as our "Positive", simply undergoing a very deep modernization (with the creation of an actually new radar in the old form factor).


USS Indianapolis (LCS-17) with TPS-4D radar.


"American" Positive-M "- radar SPQ-9B.

Returning to the Russian Navy. This year, he completed tests of the Odintsovo MRK with the Pantsir-M air defense missile system. Unlike "Kortika", the command module of which was the radar "Positive", "Pantsir-M" received a new very effective target detection system of 10-cm range with stationary AFAR canvases (developed by TsKBA). At the same time, "Odintsovo" also has a 3-cm radar "Positive-M", which very effectively complements the 10-cm SOC "Pantsirya-M".


Yes, there is some redundancy (minimal, but working version - one "Positive-M"). However, the price of such a radar complex turns out to be much lower than the "golden" (and incapable of solving problems as intended) "tower" of the "Barrier".

The absence of electronic warfare and communications equipment (installed on the ship separately next to each other) in the Odintsovo tower in the existing organizational structure of the Navy is not a disadvantage, but an advantage. For it allows them to really bring and provide not presentation, but real effectiveness.

"Decompose an unsolvable problem down to components that provide a comprehensive solution within an existing organization."

There is the head corvette of the project 20380 "Guarding". Taking into account all the problems of the series, its real combat capability today should be considered near-zero (first of all, by means of air defense). In this situation, the installation of the Odintsovo tower-mast complex on the "Guarding" (with the replacement of "Kortika-M" by "Pantsir-M") allows the ship to breathe a second life. And what's more - to have an informed decision on the appearance of the new corvettes of the Navy.

No OCD is required for this. All work can be carried out under a repair contract. The docking of the SOTS "Pantsirya-M" and the BIUS "Sigma" of the corvette has already been completed (at the RTO "Odintsovo")

The second "problem": means of searching for submarines.
The main means of searching for submarines on the new ships of the Russian Navy is the towed active-passive GAS "Minotavr".

The network has repeatedly leaked statements about problems with its real effectiveness in the navy. Could this be? Can! For this is a complex technical system that requires serious refinement and mastering.

In this case, you need to understand that the physics of the "Minotaur" is all right. Accordingly, the issue of realizing its potential in the fleet is organizational: tough and methodical work on the development of a new GAS and constant pressure from the developer on the part of the fleet to eliminate the identified shortcomings.

"The road will be mastered by the walking one."

Unfortunately, our Navy in terms of the use of new BUGAS more

"Lying on the couch."

And here is the next photo.


Ancient Egyptian patrol boats of the Chinese substring of the "Hainan" project (in fact, this is the project of our post-war large hunters of Project 122), with the latest towed GAS LFASS (and it is clear that they worked with GAS).
Maybe at the sight of this photo our admirals (and at the same time the head of the anti-submarine warfare service of the Navy) will finally feel ashamed?

In more detail on the problems of new means of searching for submarines -
Anti-submarine defense: ships against submarines. Hydroacoustics",

Anti-submarine defense: ships against submarines. Weapons and tactics ".

The second part of the problem of finding submarines is anti-submarine helicopters.
In order not to waste time, the easiest way is to cite two documents, one after the other.

In. No. UG-56166 dated 01.09.2020
To the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation
Report.
"On critical problems of naval anti-submarine aviation of the Navy"

I hereby report:

Due to the fact that the real detection ranges of low-noise submarines (PL) by passive radio-hydroacoustic buoys (RGAB) of the Navy today objectively amount to several hundred meters (including RGAB RGB-16M, purchased under the state defense order), to talk about the possibility of any they do not have an effective anti-submarine search.

Anti-submarine helicopter Ka-27M in the process of modernization has lost ... PPS (PPS "Octopus", developed 70s - 80s.). Instead of it, two "crutches" were installed - RGA "Kema" ("Dalpribor") and KTS (as part of the radar station from "Fazotron"), which are in no way able to replace the PPS.

It's not the developers' fault. What the Navy MA ordered the industry, it got it! Similarly, the lowered hydroacoustic station (OGAS) "Ros-VM", due to the preservation of the old high-frequency antenna, has extremely limited performance characteristics (compared to the western powerful low-frequency OGAS, our "Ros-VM" is simply pathetic and wretched). Most importantly, the OGAS Ka-27M does not provide multi-position operation with the RGAB (for "illumination" and detection of low-noise submarines) and GAS ships (that is, what ALL modern western anti-submarine helicopters do).


PPS - search targeting system. This is something that is no longer on the helicopter.

RGA - radiohydroacoustic equipment.

KTS is a command-tactical system.

The problem with these systems is that they cannot form all the data necessary for the use of torpedoes, that is, they do not form a single search and sighting system.

And the second document.


The prospects for the naval aviation of the Navy have appeared. Her ex-chief, Kozhin, began the long-awaited process of moving to the chair prepared for him at Radar-MMS JSC. And there is hope that his successors will finally show due responsibility and adherence to principles.

However, problems need to be uncovered. And in one of the next articles it will be necessary to return to the topic of naval aviation.

The third "problem": the possibility of mass serial construction.
And another quote from one of the leading experts in military shipbuilding:

In general, in the place of the leadership of the Central Design Bureau, I would, on the contrary, suggest mobilization 20385 with a metal superstructure and without an IBMK (with the REV complex from 22800: "Positive", "Mineral", 10 cm SOC from "Pantsir"). It would be quite possible to keep within 15-17 billion. By itself, this 20385M (mobilization) will already be a new project. Yes ... no associated OCD. But a new set of documentation should be developed anyway. Yes, it will not cost a billion, but it will be a really massive and relatively inexpensive ship in the near sea zone, capable of operating in the far sea zone due to its displacement and the presence of roll stabilizers.

Nevertheless, the pace of construction, even mobilization 20385 will be insufficient (taking into account the critical state with the naval composition of the Navy). And here there is only one solution - the "small corvette". That is, it is actually necessary to return to the OVR corvette.

Until recently, there were two potential options - on the basis of project 22800 RTOs at the Almaz Central Marine Design Bureau and on the basis of the "Small Cheetah" of the Zelenodolsk Design Bureau. Today you can forget about the last option, ZPKB is fully loaded with work on UDC.

However, there is an extremely successful project 22800 "Karkurt", including its reinforced versions (with air defense systems and anti-submarine weapons).


"Reinforced" "Karakurt" at the VGK show in December 2019, Sevastopol.

It is important to note that the possibility of mass construction of the "mobilization" variants of the project 20380 and 22800 is fully provided with serial deliveries of weapons. The bottleneck here is the main power plants (GEM).

However, there is a solution here as well.

Kolomensky Zavod, subject to stable orders, can supply 16D49 diesel engines in any required quantity, the limiting factor is the gearbox of OOO Zvezda-reducer and stands for their assembly and testing (up to four RRP12000 per year). That is, the current capabilities of the industry ensure the construction of two ships of the corvette or BDK class (where the Corvette power plant also went).

However, increasing the number of stands (if there is a firm order) is an absolutely real task (Kolomna will provide a diesel engine). So there are no real problems here either.

The situation is most acute for the power plant for the MRK project 22800, ships on the water have been waiting for their diesel engines for years. However, there is a solution here as well.

From A. Timokhin's article "Diesel Factor" in "MIC-courier":

At present, Zvezda is able to produce three M507 engines a year with a guarantee ... The M507 is, simply put, a pair of two M504s. Is it possible to obtain acceptable tactical and technical characteristics on the "halves" of the M507? It turns out you can. Nowadays, multi-shaft water jet installations are becoming more widespread in Western countries…. Instead of three M507s, four M504s can be used, each of which will work on its own water cannon. And we will solve the problem again, because even with the current capabilities of PJSC "Zvezda" for the supply of diesel engines, it will be possible to build up to two such ships per year without increasing the production of engines.

Since then, Zvezda has been able to increase the pace to six М507 engines a year, which cost its new director ... a career!

The position of the owner ("Sinara") in this situation, to put it mildly, is strange. Sinara's actions make one wonder whether those who believe that Sinara wants to bring Zvezda to bankruptcy and sell the vacated plant territories in St. Petersburg for housing are right? It is not a fact that this is so. But it looks very similar.

Quote:

Last year, Zvezda entered two sets a year: six M507 engines. Progress, no ... But somehow the new director did not please the Sinarovskoy administration. I guess what ... and that's it. Next year, most likely, two orders will be delivered, but this is the inertia of last year.

The bottleneck in larger projects is not engines, but gearboxes manufactured by Zvezda-Reduktor. And the same owner also does not show interest in development. The country's interests just don't seem to exist there.

And there is only one solution here: both the Zvezda and the Reduction Star must be returned to the state. Optimal: with their transfer to the UEC. This will really be a strategic and system-forming decision on the ship's power plant.

conclusions


1. The decision on the IBMK on new corvettes should be reviewed. The new ships should be equipped with effective, serial and proven weapons. The difference in price should be directed to emergency modifications of corvettes as part of the Navy and the elimination of their design flaws.

2. Modernization (within the framework of a serial contract, by analogy with the construction contract) of Project 22800 as a "small multipurpose corvette of the Navy".

3. To raise a question (for the spring meetings in Bocharov Ruchei) about the return of "Zvezda" and "Zvezda-Reductor" to the state (to the UEC).

All these phantom problems can be solved very quickly. There would be a desire to solve them.

PS


In. No. 916533 dated 17.08.2020
To the Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the RF Armed Forces
To the President of the Russian Federation
Putin Vladimir Vladimirovich

Report.

According to the statement for the media of the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy, Admiral Evmenov, on behalf of the President of the Russian Federation, materials are being prepared for concluding a state contract for the construction of 6 corvettes of project 20380 at Amur Shipyard JSC (ASZ JSC). Taking into account the critical state of the Pacific Fleet's ship composition, insecurity of deployment and combat stability of the naval strategic nuclear forces (NSNF), this order is extremely necessary.

At the same time, of course, the critical shortcomings of project 20380 (with which the project is currently “limited combat-ready”) in terms of anti-submarine weapons and air defense of the ship must be eliminated.

1. An effective solution to anti-submarine problems unambiguously requires the presence in the ammunition of the corvette of anti-submarine missiles (PLR) "Answer" of the missile weapon complex (KRO) "Caliber". In fact, without submarines, a corvette, even with good search means, is a "game" for enemy submarines (submarines), and with submarines - a "hunter" for them.

2. The Ka-27M helicopter can in no way replace the PLR ​​corvette, due to the extremely low characteristics and search capabilities (both the outdated high-frequency lowered hydroacoustic station (OGAS) "Ros-VM", and the RSB-16M radio acoustic buoys) and defeat PL.

3. Taking into account the versatility of launchers for the PLR ​​"Answer" and other missiles KRO "Caliber", the possibility of launching with it the missiles "Onyx" and "Zircon", on the new corvettes it is clearly necessary to place a launcher for missiles "Onyx" / "Caliber "/" Onyx "/" Zircon ", i.e. new corvettes of JSC "ASZ" should be built according to project 20385 (with KRO "Caliber").

4. Taking into account the strict funding limitation, construction time frame, the only possibility of this is to replace the extremely expensive radar complex (RLC) of the IBMK “Zaslon” with the used and effective products “Positive-M”, “Monument” (or “Monolith”), “Puma ".

Note: today - not a single air target was shot down by the IBMK "Zaslon", taking into account the acceleration of the deadlines for the delivery of the lead ship with it (the corvette "Thundering") to the Navy, there are good reasons to believe that certain persons are striving to carry out tests under deliberately simplified conditions combat, for example, shooting at targets (RM-15M) with an altitude and visibility (EPR) more than an order of magnitude greater than real targets). It is also necessary to mention here the massive disruption of JSC Zaslon (developer of the IBMK) of work on radar topics for aviation.

The decision to install the IBMK "Zaslon" on new corvettes is a "time bomb" under the entire program, because:

• the real working capacity of the IBMK (and the ability to solve problems as intended) has not yet been ensured, and all the terms for this have been disrupted by the developer;
• there are good reasons to believe that there are complex and unresolved issues in the IBMK ... (cut out);
• for contractor work under the project 20380 IBMK "Zaslon" is the most expensive and risky component, while the necessary tasks are reliably performed by serially produced products with many times lower cost.

5. Another factor in saving financial resources and ensuring the specified construction time frame can be the replacement of a composite superstructure with a metal one. Previously, the installation of an expensive composite superstructure was justified by the thesis of "reduced visibility", which was not confirmed by real tests of serial ships.

6. Work on the completion of the project 20380 for this does not require the implementation of additional R&D, and can be carried out within the framework of the "serial" GOST RV 307 as "completion of the serial design". These works do not require additional funds, because the cost of corvettes, much more efficient in terms of combat capabilities, turns out to be lower than the current "game" of project 20380, and the overall terms of work are ultimately reduced (which allows the fleet to reliably rely on new ships).

7. The proposed "mobilization" version of the project 20380/20385 (with KRO "Caliber", with "Positive-M" instead of IBMK "Zaslon") has high combat qualities, moderate cost, reliably provided for the possibilities of mass serial construction by counterparty supplies, and is suitable for construction in many shipyards.

Thus, with a slight revision of the project 20380 (without additional R&D), its main disadvantages can be eliminated (with a simultaneous multiple increase in combat potential), the cost can be significantly reduced and the mass serial construction of new ships for the Russian Navy can be reliably ensured.

I am reporting on your decision.
November 15.08.2020, XNUMX
Best regards, captain 3rd rank in reserve Klimov Maxim Aleksandrovich



Despite repeated requests, there was no response from the RF Ministry of Defense and the Navy.
Apparently the fleet has nothing to say.

Should I write like that? Certainly.

"A drop hammers a stone."

In addition, there is a very serious issue of the responsibility of officials for what is happening. A simple reply to a citizen is one thing, and quite another when there is a direct lie of responsible persons to the country's top military-political leadership.

And, as practice shows, such papers do not disappear. Even if they are deliberately pushed into the shredder for concealment, there is often a printer on the way to the shredder (and a copy often goes into the shredder).

In addition, in a number of cases there were real consequences of such appeals. And they are very positive.

For example, in the FSB for the armament of ships guard.

But this is already the subject of a separate conversation.
Author:
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  1. Alien From
    Alien From 4 January 2021 05: 32
    +21
    This is what the author drove ... here for a week only to read and delve into ....... thanks hi ) this is not a video for you ........!
    1. 210ox
      210ox 4 January 2021 07: 49
      +11
      Here it is for professionals to delve into and draw conclusions to responsible persons.
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 4 January 2021 08: 33
        -59%
        Quote: 210ox
        This is what the author drove.
        Quote: 210ox
        Here it is for professionals to delve into and draw conclusions to responsible persons.

        Those professionals and responsible persons who are responsible for the security of our country. The author posted in the public domain (i.e. handed over to the enemies), all the vulnerabilities of our technology (who needs to know about them anyway).

        Let me remind you that 90% of all information (where and what to look for) is in open sources. Aboriginal "analysts" are most valuable because they have the same mentality as the inhabitants of the country in which its enemies are interested. They are the most accurate in their conclusions.



        PS
        Wow, how many minuses have already been thrown laughing
        The bad guys in our country have not died yet ...
        1. 210ox
          210ox 4 January 2021 09: 03
          -9
          So maybe this is misinformation? belay what
          1. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 09: 33
            +28
            No. This is reality.
        2. Crowe
          Crowe 4 January 2021 09: 04
          +55
          Yes, stop spanking nonsense, it hurts. The more you contradict yourself
          The author posted it in the public domain (i.e. surrendered to enemies), all the vulnerabilities of our technology (who needs to know about them).

          The author does not betray any state and military secrets, he simply expresses his civil position, which is worthy of respect in our time.
          1. Boris55
            Boris55 4 January 2021 09: 17
            -54%
            Quote: Crowe
            simply expresses his civic position

            Citizenship of a citizen of which country? Why, if he is really interested in this question, did not make an appointment with the Minister of Defense, but ran to the prosecutor's office, thereby covering his ass from the consequences of his statements from the same prosecutor's office?

            The bad boy also had his own civic position and it is generously paid by our enemies. Only here the cookies run out quickly, and Russia is as it was, as it is, and it will be.

            1. timokhin-aa
              5 January 2021 00: 21
              +23
              Go to some war to fight, but - MANDATORY - so that you go on the attack WITHOUT WEAPONS.
              Otherwise, your position is very rotten - some sailors must die going into battle without air defense tomorrow, so that today you and others like you can read on the Internet only what you like.
              It's not fair.
              1. Vadim237
                Vadim237 5 January 2021 01: 00
                -19%
                "Otherwise, your position is very rotten - some sailors must die going into battle without air defense tomorrow." - From the beginning it is necessary to find such fools who will want to fight openly with Russia.
          2. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 4 January 2021 13: 20
            -23%
            Quote: Crowe

            The author does not betray any state and military secrets, he simply expresses his civil position, which is worthy of respect in our time.

            Once the newspaper Pravda, this is back in Soviet times, expressed its civic position by publishing a critical article on our road machinery (scrapers, bulldozers, etc.). Less than three days later, the Greeks canceled the contract for the purchase of this equipment. So that's it.
            So you shouldn't have criticized? It is necessary! But .., in a branch newspaper that the Greeks don't read. And Pravda was read all over the world, on duty.
            I suppose here, too, "Boris55" is not so wrong. When I was serving as an urgent, I was lucky to read a couple of issues of a magazine with a stamp - only for generals and admirals. Maybe there is a similar edition now.
            1. timokhin-aa
              5 January 2021 00: 33
              +4
              Maybe there is a similar edition now.


              Masterpiece level of knowledge of the issue under discussion.

              Are you not ashamed to live in the world?
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 5 January 2021 00: 44
                +3
                Quote: timokhin-aa

                Masterpiece level of knowledge of the issue under discussion.

                Are you not ashamed to live in the world?

                What did you mean? I did not discuss your article, because it is absolutely not in the subject. I only asked for a transcript of the abbreviations. All!
                And on accusation of you by "Boris 55" in publishing the minuses of the ship's weapons systems, I only said that he was not so wrong. And he gave an example. I did not say that he was right, but made only an assumption that he was right.
                In consequence of what should I be ashamed?
                In this regard, I have doubts about your ability to understand what you read.
          3. Victorio
            Victorio 4 January 2021 15: 32
            -19%
            Quote: Crowe
            The author does not betray, he simply expresses his civil position,

            ===
            I am curious how much they will give to the author, for example, the former lieutenant-commander (or what is their caprang 3?) Max Klimovenens, in the most democratic country in the world?
            ps on the other hand, the author's persistence and energy is worthy of respect
            1. timokhin-aa
              5 January 2021 00: 36
              +9
              Such things are the norm there. I am currently doing a selection of open sources for the "competent authorities" on one issue.
              They write there without hiding.
              It's another matter that the whole Pentagon jumps up from this and tries to fix everything if possible. And sometimes they fix it when they can.
              1. Victorio
                Victorio 5 January 2021 14: 36
                +1
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Such things are the norm there. I'm making a selection right now open sources for "competent authorities" on one issue.
                They write there without hiding.
                It's another matter that the whole Pentagon jumps up from this and tries to fix everything if possible. And sometimes they fix it when they can.

                ===
                well, since such things are normal there, and you can make a similar selection about their norm, it would be interesting to read it
          4. cormorant
            cormorant 4 January 2021 17: 32
            +2
            It is clear that the civic position is not without a drain from a person who deeply knows the problems of the fleet, but the main thing is that it works and the information reaches where it needs to be.
        3. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 09: 33
          +28
          Quote: Boris55
          The author has posted all the vulnerabilities of our technology in the public domain (i.e., handed over to the enemies) (who needs to know about them anyway).


          "Dear", so if the people who are supposed to do this from their positions are engaged in direct sabotage of decisions aimed at strengthening the combat capability of our fleet? Are you suggesting that we leave things as they are? Perhaps it will resolve? So that will not dissolve. Well, up to Tsushima another. And with such an attitude of the so-called fleet command, it will be so.
          1. Boris55
            Boris55 4 January 2021 10: 20
            -36%
            Quote: Cyril G ...
            Are you suggesting that we leave things as they are?

            If you read my comments carefully, you would see that I am not suggesting anything of the kind. I suggest that if a person's soul hurts, then let him turn to the Minister of Defense.

            If you are sure (?) That this "sabotage" is not at the level of the Minister of Defense, then why are you so sure that the prosecutor's office will be able to decide something? And if you are not sure, then there is only one thing left - to sell yourself to the West at a higher price. I don't see any other reasons for looking for vulnerabilities in our equipment and handing them over to the enemy.

            It is necessary to judge them, and not to mold them into heroes.
            1. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 11: 36
              +18
              Quote: Boris55
              I don't see any other reasons for looking for vulnerabilities in our equipment and handing them over to the enemy.


              There are many reasons to do this and do it. If you do not understand what exactly needs to be kept secret, try reading something on the topic.
              The total classification of everything and everything gives rise to a bunch of problems at the exit, starting from the misunderstanding of the people and whether we have an army at all and why is it, in principle, needed, ending with repeated dubbing of R&D and R&D and dragging through frankly delusional projects like Poseidon ...
              And if such eeee flights come up, the Ministry of Defense should at least take measures, and not sluggishly unsubscribe and try to sweep the problems under the rug, otherwise our fleet will have the same result - Tsushima. Apparently we are no stranger, but if the command of the fleet has just such a position, can it be easier then to reduce the entire command of the fleet up to rear admirals inclusively and make the fleets the naval forces of the districts?
              1. timokhin-aa
                5 January 2021 00: 24
                +7
                to make fleets naval forces of districts?


                They did it a long time ago
                1. Lara Croft
                  Lara Croft 5 January 2021 01: 07
                  0
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  to make fleets naval forces of districts?

                  They did it a long time ago

                  And one from 01.01.2021/XNUMX/XNUMX itself became an analogue of VO ...
                2. Cyril G ...
                  Cyril G ... 5 January 2021 08: 29
                  +4
                  Then where is the mass reduction of admirals from central structures due to the senselessness of their activities?
                  You must understand that the command of the fleet to this and went with enviable constancy and purposefulness for the last 10-15 years. The first marker of this lewdness, I will not talk about earlier events, will be the cancellation of the MRK Nakat and the SSGN pr.670M of Onyx carriers and the systematic strangulation of the MPA. Here the analogue of the decision to swap beds and ladies in the appropriate institution will not work, of course. The fleet needs to be reformed by outside parties. And at the same time it will be determined - why is it needed, strictly speaking.
              2. Volder
                Volder 5 January 2021 10: 28
                -11%
                Quote: Cyril G ...
                frankly delusional projects like Poseidon ...
                Poseidon is not a crazy project. Its main purpose is to release ICBMs designed to strike civilian infrastructure. With the adoption of Poseidon, all ICBMs will be re-targeted ONLY at military infrastructure. The second, but not the main purpose of the Poseidons is the fight against aircraft carriers.
                1. Cyril G ...
                  Cyril G ... 5 January 2021 10: 41
                  +6
                  Quote: Volder
                  The second, but not the main purpose of the Poseidons is the fight against aircraft carriers.

                  How do you imagine it? I must say right away that Berezin is not an example ...

                  Poseidon is not a crazy project. Its main purpose is to release ICBMs,

                  Of course delusional.
                  1. Volder
                    Volder 5 January 2021 11: 15
                    -10%
                    Quote: Cyril G ...
                    How do you imagine that?
                    Poseidon is a large and super powerful nuclear powered torpedo. For aircraft carriers, the nuclear charge will probably be smaller or there will be a conventional warhead. Because of the secrecy regime, it is impossible to form a complete picture.
                    1. Cyril G ...
                      Cyril G ... 5 January 2021 11: 21
                      +5
                      What is the likelihood for the United States to repel even a limited salvo of ICBMs and an attack of 32 gigatorpedoes?
                      It is simply impossible to talk about aiming a gigatorpeda at AUG without sobs of sorrow.
                      Not to mention what is the point of putting an ordinary warhead on a gigatorpeda if there is a nuclear reactor there. laughing lol
                      But this is all the little things. The main thing is that, for the sake of schizophrenic delirium, the Navy, let's say diplomatically, lost two many target nuclear submarines. Moreover, the nuclear submarine of pr.949 was sacrificed to Poseidon, which, being completed as a carrier of Onyx-Caliber-Zircons, would be much more necessary for the fleet, two or three orders of magnitude.
                      In short, Poseidon makes at least some sense in exactly one case - if a gigatorpeda can be loaded / unloaded from a trailer with an ordinary crane, if for its launch it is enough to have a hardware container on the Kamaz chassis where you can prepare a marching mission and insert torpedoes into the control system and it is enough to deliver it to any the pier that survived after the outbreak of the Third World War, there it should be lowered with an ordinary crane of sufficient lifting capacity into the water and sent on its last journey.
                      1. Volder
                        Volder 6 January 2021 20: 58
                        -6
                        Quote: Cyril G ...
                        What is the probability for the United States to repel even a limited salvo of ICBMs
                        A limited salvo of ICBMs may not be enough to stop US aggression.
                        It is simply impossible to talk about aiming a gigatorpeda at AUG without sobs of sorrow.
                        One conventional torpedo will not destroy an aircraft carrier, but one gigatorpedo will. I don't think there will be any problems with targeting.
                        The main thing is that the fleet has lost two many target nuclear submarines. The nuclear submarine of pr.949 would be much more necessary for the fleet, two or three orders of magnitude more needed.
                        Poseidon is a strategic deterrent to prevent a war from breaking out. A tactical nuclear submarine with cruise missiles does not have the same stopping and intimidating effect. On the question of what is more needed, I would argue with you.
                      2. Cyril G ...
                        Cyril G ... 6 January 2021 21: 21
                        +4
                        Quote: Volder
                        A tactical nuclear submarine with cruise missiles does not have the same stopping and intimidating effect. On the question of what is more needed, I would argue with you.

                        And there is no need to argue to complete the 949 project with the CD was a vital necessity ...

                        Quote: Volder
                        Poseidon is a strategic deterrent to keep war from breaking out.

                        Once again, why a strategic deterrent weapon with a time of arrival at a point approximately equal to a week?

                        I don't think there will be any problems with targeting.

                        Then you need to attack from the AUG detection range of your own SAC, which is about 40-50 miles offhand.

                        Quote: Volder
                        A limited salvo of ICBMs may not be enough to stop US aggression.


                        But all Poseidons can be easily destroyed because there will be a lot of time to catch them.
                      3. Volder
                        Volder 7 January 2021 00: 23
                        -5
                        Quote: Cyril G ...
                        Once again, why a strategic deterrent weapon with a time of arrival at a point approximately equal to a week?
                        Considering the "Belgorod" on duty in the oceans and the speed of "Poseidon" movement, arrival at the explosion point will take much less time than a week. In general, the Poseidon weapon is comparable in purpose to the Perimeter (Dead Hand) system, therefore, by and large, it makes no difference when the United States is destroyed - a day, a week or a month after Russia's disappearance in a nuclear funnel. The answer will reach the addressee in any case.
                        Then you need to attack from the AUG detection range of your own SAC, which is about 40-50 miles offhand.
                        Is not a fact. If you take "Putin's cartoon" literally, then the nuclear submarine "Belgorod" does not have to chase the AUG. Poseidon will directly chase the aircraft carrier. But don't ask how - no one knows the exact answer.
                        But all Poseidons can be easily destroyed because there will be a lot of time to catch them.
                        What other catch ?? Easy to destroy ?? What are you talking about? How? Remind you, what is the depth of the Poseidon's immersion and its speed? They cannot be compared with ordinary submarines and torpedoes! The enemy does not have the necessary technologies to catch / eliminate. Poseidon is like a needle in a haystack. Even if they are detected when approaching the shores of the United States, they will not have time to react with the existing ASW systems, nor will they be able to physically neutralize them. Not a single torpedo would follow the Poseidon.
                      4. Cyril G ...
                        Cyril G ... 7 January 2021 12: 37
                        +2
                        Quote: Volder
                        Poseidon will directly chase the aircraft carrier.

                        Because this is a lie and is impossible due to the lack of a developed complex of hydroacoustic detection tools.

                        Quote: Volder
                        Considering the "Belgorod" on duty in the oceans and the speed of "Poseidon" movement, arrival at the explosion point will take much less time than a week.


                        More idiocy than the creation of parallel NSNF with practical dead OVR and MA is not even possible to imagine. Further Belgorod 1, well, there will be two, each boat with a unique acoustic portrait will be guaranteed to be killed when crawling out from under the umbrella. At least some scanty sense of Poseidon will make sense only under the conditions that I voiced above ...
                        I repeat.
                        - elimination of the need for nuclear submarines for launch.
                        - the possibility of launching from any marina where there is a surviving piece of the pier and a crane to remove a torpedo from a special transporter.


                        Quote: Volder
                        What other catch ?? Easy to destroy ??

                        Large depths do not save from detection, the Mk-48 officially hits targets at a depth of 800 meters. If necessary, the YABCH will be stupidly screwed onto it again.

                        Quote: Volder
                        They cannot be compared with ordinary submarines and torpedoes!

                        Yes of course....

                        Quote: Volder
                        The enemy does not have the necessary technologies to catch / eliminate.

                        There is, of course, the US Navy needs to know, honor and understand its weaknesses. Anti-submarine warfare is not one of those.

                        Quote: Volder
                        Not a single torpedo would follow the Poseidon.

                        Why are they chasing - it will amaze you on a head-on course. SAMs, too, are not chasing anti-ship missiles ..
                      5. Volder
                        Volder 7 January 2021 15: 10
                        -5
                        Quote: Cyril G ...
                        Because this is a lie and is impossible due to the lack of a developed complex of hydroacoustic detection tools.
                        Have you heard anything about the network-centric interaction of different types of weapons? AUG can be detected not only by hydroacoustics. Although hydroacoustics from other submarines is also possible. There are also satellites and radars. Targeting is not important in this case. It is enough to know the approximate area where the AUG is located in order to launch Poseidon in that direction.
                        More idiocy than the creation of parallel NSNF with practical dead OVR and MA is not even possible to imagine.
                        Poseidon is not a parallel NSNF. It is an integral part of the NSNF as an important addition with the aim of reorienting ICBMs from civilian targets to military targets. The Americans are so used to our traditional nuclear triad that they have illusions about victory over Russia. As for the OVR and MA, I will repeat to you once again: if there is no navy, Russia will still not be defeated (not captured). But with insufficiently strong NSNF - to win and capture. So the situation with the OVR and MA is not so critical for the security of the country as a whole.
                        Further Belgorod 1, well, there will be two, each boat with a unique acoustic portrait, will be guaranteed to be killed when crawling out from under the umbrella.
                        Of course it is not. Our submarines regularly go on duty, crawling out from under the umbrella, but they are not detected. The ocean is too big.
                        Great depths do not save from detection
                        Ordinary submarines will not survive if they find themselves at a distance of 40-50 km from the Mark-48 carrier.
                        Mk-48 officially hits targets at a depth of 800 meters.
                        So what? Remind you of what depth and speed the Poseidon has?
                        Why are they chasing - it will amaze you on a head-on course.
                        The torpedo will shoot at the torpedo? Are you seriously? You do not seem to deny that the Americans have no counter-torpedoes. Besides, Poseidon's course is not straightforward. Gigatorpeda maneuvers! Even if a non-existent American counter-torpedo by some miracle hits the target, the nuclear wave will cover the entire AUG. After all, when approaching the target, "Poseidon" will rise from the depths to the surface of the water.
                        SAM, too, for anti-ship missiles are not chasing the same
                        Therefore, the US Navy's missiles cannot hit maneuvering targets flying at speeds exceeding Mach 3.
                      6. Cyril G ...
                        Cyril G ... 7 January 2021 15: 19
                        +2
                        Have you heard anything about the network-centric interaction of different types of weapons?

                        Bggg! Do you understand what you are talking about now? The task of providing communication and control with an underwater drone traveling at a kilometer depth is extremely nontrivial. Adnaka.
                        Quote: Volder
                        But with insufficiently strong NSNF - to win and capture.

                        What we have NSNF, what we don't. One fig. This is just a window of vulnerability nothing more than
                        Quote: Volder
                        It is enough to find out the approximate area where the AUG is located to launch Poseidon in that direction.

                        Bggyyy !!!
                        Quote: Volder
                        Our submarines regularly go on duty, crawling out from under the umbrella, but they are not detected.

                        Who told you this?
                        Quote: Volder
                        Remind you of what depth and speed the Poseidon has?

                        Do you know its depth? Well, 1000 meters, exactly near the occurrence of the shut-off valve. I'm talking about inadequate design.
                        Quote: Volder
                        The torpedo will shoot at the torpedo? Are you seriously? You don't seem to deny that the Americans have no counter-torpedoes.

                        They will finish Tripwire and that's it. It is already in different configurations on 3 AVMAs. It is necessary to bring to mind.
                        Quote: Volder
                        Therefore, the US Navy's missiles cannot hit maneuvering targets flying at speeds exceeding Mach 3.

                        Who told you that? Again?!
                        - That is why the Americans use RM Coyote.
                        https://topwar.ru/13881-raketa-mishen-gqm-163-coyote-amerikanskiy-uspeh-ili-rossiyskaya-promah.html
                      7. Cyril G ...
                        Cyril G ... 7 January 2021 16: 14
                        +1
                        I will add - a question in the REAL depth of Poseidon
                        because if as "they write now" - the amers will have enough and the MK50 mod (+ return of the YaGB)
                        but if it is much more (and technically it is possible), then a new product "like Tripwire" is definitely needed.
                        In general, with the backlog, the Americans are able to solve this problem in 2-3 years
                      8. Volder
                        Volder 7 January 2021 18: 41
                        -4
                        Quote: Cyril G ...
                        The task of providing communication and control with an underwater drone traveling at a kilometer depth is extremely nontrivial.
                        And where did you get the idea that "Poseidon" will always and constantly move at such a depth? Why do you think that he cannot periodically emerge when the simplest signal is given to him, and again dive into the depth after receiving the approximate coordinates of the target? It is clear that Poseidon will not give itself out, being hundreds of kilometers from the nearest AUG. And even if he does, they won't be able to do anything with him, because the intestines are thin.
                        What we have NSNF, what we don't. One fig. This is just a window of vulnerability nothing more than
                        This is not an argument, but your personal subjective judgment, not based on anything.
                        Who told you this?
                        American military leaders. If you're not lazy, you can look for quotes on the Internet yourself ...
                        Do you know its depth? Well, 1000 meters, exactly near the occurrence of the shut-off valve.
                        The slam-hole layer can be at different depths. For example, in the area north of the Hawaiian Islands, the PZK axis is located at a depth of 750 m.
                        They will bring the Tripwire to mind and be done.
                        No, not with the end. When a hypothetical counter-torpedo is fired, Poseidon will spot it and simply change course, bypassing the ship on the other side. He can change course endlessly until the enemy runs out of anti-torpedoes. It is clear that these counter-torpedoes will not physically catch up with Poseidon. Even if the Poseidon does not have the technical ability to take the bearing of the attacking counter-torpedoes, due to the maneuvers and high speed it will still remain invulnerable and will certainly hit the aircraft carrier. A vertical attack on the bottom of an aircraft carrier is also possible, i.e. not from the side like classic torpedoes, but from below - like a rocket from the depths.
                        This is why the Americans use RM Coyote.
                        This RM, although it has supersonic speed, and makes some maneuvers, but is a well-visible target for air defense systems. Our anti-ship missiles, let's take the Onyx as an example, flies at an altitude of 5-10 meters from the water, in complete radio silence, i.e. practically invisible to enemy radars. At the same time, the rocket makes maneuvers with overloads greater than that of the GQM-163 Coyote (thanks to a 4-ton thrust ramjet engine). Just a few moments before the target is hit, the seeker turns on. SAMs of the American Navy cannot hit such missiles as the Onyx and even more so the Zircon.
                  2. georg 2
                    georg 2 11 January 2021 01: 05
                    -2
                    Further Belgorod 1, well, there will be two, each boat with a unique acoustic portrait, will be guaranteed to be killed when crawling out from under the umbrella.

                    Stop writing about acoustic portraits. Do you understand this issue? Do you understand how they are formed? Write about what you understand.
                  3. Fizik M
                    Fizik M 16 January 2021 02: 59
                    0
                    Quote: georg 2
                    Stop writing about acoustic portraits. Do you understand this issue? Do you understand how they are formed? Write about what you understand.

                    Are you a liar "understand"? lol
                  4. georg 2
                    georg 2 12 February 2021 13: 53
                    0
                    Stop writing about acoustic portraits. Do you understand this issue? Do you understand how they are formed? Write about what you understand.

                    Are you a liar "understand"?

                    Unlike you, miner, I, who have passed the positions of the head of the SAC, the head of the RTS on the 641B project for 10 years at the Northern Fleet and further, as a senior researcher at the 5 Scientific Research Center of the Northern Fleet, understand. But in order not to be unfounded, I will cite an excerpt from the work of A.I. Mashoshin, published in the Acoustic Journal. 2013. then. 5 9. No. 3, p. 3 4 7 - 3 5 3. Familiar surname? Doesn't it look like anything? Broken wires? But despite this, he knows his business well. So:
                    "Amplitude modulation (AM) of underwater noise emission of sea vessels is widely used in practice for their classification |. Based on the analysis of AM parameters, the following can be determined: the type of the vessel, its displacement, the type of propeller, the number of propeller shafts, the number of propeller blades, the speed, the fact changes in the course or speed of the vessel.
                    In the English-language literature, algorithms for detecting and measuring AM parameters are called Detection Envelope Modulation On Noise, or DEMON for short.
                    Since the classification of marine objects is of greatest interest at distances close to the distances of their detection (i.e., at low values ​​of the signal-to-noise ratio), it is urgent to optimize the device for detecting and measuring the AM parameters of the noise emission of sea vessels, which provides
                    obtaining a result with extremely small signal-to-noise ratios (SNR).
                    Let's dwell on the characteristics of the VLM. (vane-blade modulation)
                    I) VLM manifests itself in the spectrum of the amplitude envelope (AO) of the ship's noise in the form of narrow-band components (harmonics) forming a vane-blade sound row (VLZR) at the shaft rotation frequency and its multiples. The frequency of rotation of the shaft of sea vessels is in units of hertz. ILZR in the AO spectrum can extend
                    up to 20-30 Hz and above. Due to the peculiarities of radiation and multipath propagation in the aquatic environment, a part of the harmonics, including the first ones, may be absent in the VLZR.
                    2) Vane-blade modulation modulated (in-phase) all the frequencies of the sound range of noises of sea vessels (the frequency range from 50 Hz to 10 kHz was studied). At the same time, for each specific vessel, the modulation coefficient (KM) of the VLZR harmonics £ hlm (/) is distributed unevenly over the noise spectrum, forming as follows
                    called cavitation maxima. However, it was not possible to reveal the regularities of the position of these maxima in different vessels. Moreover, if the dependences A: vlm (/) are averaged for a large number (more than a hundred) ships, then an almost uniform dependence is obtained, independent of frequency. "
                    Now, if we combine these conclusions and the findings of the R&D "Gryada", translate them into understandable Russian, then we can come to the conclusion that it is very problematic to form specific acoustic portraits, and this is still very mildly. And more simply, it is impossible to form, with this approach, a feature space in which it is possible to obtain clusters corresponding to specific goals. I hope there is no need to explain why the cluster i.e. subspace in space?
                  5. 2534M
                    2534M 12 February 2021 20: 24
                    -1
                    Quote: georg 2
                    Unlike you, miner, I, who have passed the positions of the head of the SAC, the head of the RTS on the 641B project for 10 years at the Northern Fleet and further, as a senior researcher at the 5 Scientific Research Center of the Northern Fleet, understand.

                    no, nonsense, you're just a SCAM and SHULER
                    get face on table
                    http://nvs.rpf.ru/nvs/forum/archive/120/120840.htm
                    By nick191 Reply to message to georg
                    Date 10.02.2011/22/42 21:XNUMX:XNUMX PM Find in the tree
                    >> I think that this reference is familiar to you:
                    >> https://sites.google.com/site/tt1927/
                    > I read, interesting. I did not understand about the "bucks".
                    Don't pretend. :about)))
                    There are also wonderful pictures with price tags.

                    For example:
                    Training simulator
                    Complex (MOK'98)
                    Price: $ 2.030.000
                    Determination of the
                    depth and range of source
                    Price: $ 314.000

                    Quote: georg 2
                    A.I.Mashoshin, published in the Acoustic Journal. 2013. then. 5 9. No. 3, p. 3 4 7 - 3 5 3. Familiar surname? Doesn't it look like anything? Broken wires?

                    and where is Mashoshin? wires of your a gang of swindlers not he cut off, but a completely different person
                    Quote: georg 2
                    He knows his business well.

                    WOW !!! something is clearly dead at the "ritsevskys" lol
                    Earlier, Mr. Mashoshin didn’t “climb out” from “yours” from the “execution lists” (this is taking into account the fact that I DO NOT AGREE WITH HIM)
                    Quote: georg 2
                    these conclusions and conclusions of the research work "Gryada"

                    Monsieur SCHULER Bukovsky - ON THE R&D "GRYADA" I HAVE ALREADY EXCLUSIVELY SPEAKED OUT
                    + I have in my "clip" an article on the UPA, "Gryada" and "Ritsa"
                    Quote: georg 2
                    I hope there is no need to explain

                    YOU roll your STUPID and LIES "explanations" into a tube and ...
                    MYSELF
                    THERE IS A PLACE (and YOU)
                  6. georg 2
                    georg 2 13 February 2021 19: 15
                    0
                    Miner Mr. Klimov, people usually get smarter with age, and you, along the way, get stupid. Or maybe you are playing your own game? Haven't you been working for some kind of imperialist intelligence since the early 90s? Or maybe everything is much simpler and you had a psychological trauma in your childhood, for example, did your peers take away candy?
                    Yes ..., only an inadequate person can talk to strangers in such a tone. But back to our "rams".
                    As for "Ritsa", whoever is interested will figure it out (the benefit of information on creating "Ritsa" on the Internet is full), who was right, we, who in the early 80s proposed to use spectral analysis and automatic data processing on a computer in acoustics (the prototype of Skat- 3), or a dropout torpedo operator Klimov, posing as a hydroacoustics specialist, who declares these works a swindle, and the authors are swindlers. The very old man has gone crazy in his hatred of everything Soviet. If you have a sufficiently substantiated judgment on this issue, then declare to the relevant authorities that all the work on Ritz was a scam, provide there the appropriate evidence and scientific justification for the insolvency of the theory used in Ritz, instead of calling everyone fools on the forums , liars, cheaters, etc. Let the people have fun. And about your "clip" I have been hearing for six months, how much longer to wait when you finally give birth, you clever little "Pinocchio"? By the way, Miner Mr. Klimov, did you carefully read Mashoshin's article, or were you just enough for the broken wires? Do you understand what he is writing about? Somehow, for rudeness, they left the comments of the main message. However, this is your signature miner style, you don't know what to say, switch to shouting and rudeness. You are predictable Klimov and you repeat yourself all the time, like a worn-out record.
                    So, I would still like to find out, you are our torpedo Moriman, your ass in shells, where are the torpedoists, led by their chief, on the submarine's ascent, which occurs on alarm, and what can you do in the CPU at this time? And the second question, who allowed the miner into the wheelhouse to listen to the noises? I have never had such an outrage on my boat. Think, truth-teller, miner Mr. Klimov, think about the answers, if there is still anything left.
                  7. georg 2
                    georg 2 13 February 2021 19: 20
                    0
                    ON THE R&D "GRYADA" I HAVE ALREADY EXTENDEDLY SPEAKED OUT

                    A link, if you please, throw it off, please. Thanks in advance.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • timokhin-aa
    5 January 2021 00: 28
    +12
    I suggest that if a person's soul hurts, then let him turn to the Minister of Defense.


    The author applied, and he is not alone.
    Sergei Kuzhugetovich once read one article of mine with Klimov. And even the effect was.

    And here you are broadcasting from what hangover?
    1. Lara Croft
      Lara Croft 5 January 2021 01: 09
      +1
      Quote: timokhin-aa
      And here you are broadcasting from what hangover?

      This business is new, not mastered, the people want to understand ...
  • Machito
    Machito 4 January 2021 09: 34
    +45
    Klimov and Timokhin are great fellows, real fighters. For a non-specialist, the article is difficult to read, but understandable (I am a communications engineer by education). The picture that the author paints is very sad, and corresponds to the doctrine of the Navy on parades in our ports. In case of hostilities, all these corvettes will be used as food for fish because of their parade weapons.
    This is worse than a crime, this is a mistake. (FROM)
    I fully agree with the author. But every mistake, crime has a name, patronymic, surname, rank, position. It is high time for the irresponsibility of leaders in modern Russia to be introduced into the Constitution by Article 1.
    In principle, it is clear who is to blame. What is there to do? Let Timokhin and Klimov continue to fight together with Spitz (the nickname of the Admiralty from COM because of the spire on the roof)? Maybe it is worth writing an open letter to the president and collecting signatures under the appeal?
    1. Charik
      Charik 4 January 2021 17: 31
      -1
      no matter how you have to change the Constitutions again
  • Fan-fan
    Fan-fan 4 January 2021 18: 03
    +9
    The author posted it in the public domain (i.e. handed it over to the enemies)

    Borya, well, you need to educate yourself at least a little, well, you can't think so primitively and irrationally. Well, at least books, read articles on the topic, here I recommend, an excellent book: M. Sviridenkov "Colonel Kasatkin:" We bombed Berlin and frightened New York ", there Kasatkin talks about excellent intelligence in the United States, for example, the Americans learned about test missile launches to the Kura training ground before the head of this training ground or the secret codes of the "friend or foe" system, which changed every 3 hours, they knew in advance, even before the code was changed.
  • timokhin-aa
    5 January 2021 00: 23
    +8
    The author has posted all the vulnerabilities of our technology in the public domain (i.e., handed over to the enemies) (who needs to know about them anyway).


    They know everything there and so. But our politicians are not always. For this, such articles are needed.
  • Cympak
    Cympak 5 January 2021 13: 35
    +6
    Let me remind you that 90% of all information (where and what to look for) is in open sources. Aboriginal "analysts" are most valuable because they have the same mentality as the inhabitants of the country in which its enemies are interested. They are the most accurate in their conclusions.

    As shown in 1905, 1914, 1941, the most dangerous for the Motherland are jingoistic patriots, who have "yellow monkeys", "with little blood and on a foreign land", "the enemy cannot fight without toilet paper and Pepsi-Cola" ..... And then there is a heavy sobering up in the form of Tsushima and Port Arthur, the defeat at Tannenberg, and the Germans near Moscow ...
  • timokhin-aa
    4 January 2021 10: 57
    +20
    Yes, everyone knows everything there.
    1. Machito
      Machito 4 January 2021 11: 35
      +9
      Everyone knows everything, but they can't stop stealing.
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 4 January 2021 13: 03
    -4
    Quote: 210ox
    Here it is for professionals to delve into and draw conclusions to responsible persons.

    Yes, professionals need to delve into the essence of the article, and the article, in fact, is directed specifically to them. But it’s interesting to read it, because people who are far from this topic have to read it. And it is read with great difficulty due to the mass of abbreviations that are incomprehensible to most readers. I would like the authors, in their articles, to take into account the fact that their articles are read not only by specialists.
    1. timokhin-aa
      4 January 2021 14: 33
      +21
      Initially, it was planned that Klimov and I would write a joint article aimed at the general reader. But then he decided that it was necessary to throw in an article for specialists, and as soon as possible, this material was born as a result. It is, in theory, not for the general reader, there are simply no other platforms for quick publication and throwing it into the information field.

      And the massive article was rearranged by me into a kind of educational program on the principles of shipbuilding policy and will be released soon. In a few days.
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 4 January 2021 18: 38
        +3
        Quote: timokhin-aa

        And the massive article was rearranged by me into a kind of educational program on the principles of shipbuilding policy and will be released soon. In a few days.

        Explanations are accepted. I'm looking forward to the "massive article".
  • Thrifty
    Thrifty 4 January 2021 11: 05
    0
    Maxim, and on the "reinforced" Karakurt the same dead zone for the radar because of the mast behind! I suppose it is necessary to change the height of the superstructure itself partially, in the place where the radar station is, by the method of increasing it upward! !!
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 11: 37
      +18
      There is no radio-transparent insert in the mast. Therefore, a circular view is provided on Karrakurt (Klimov's answer)
    2. Scharnhorst
      Scharnhorst 4 January 2021 14: 05
      0
      on "reinforced" Karakurt the same dead zone for the radar from behind the mast behind! I suppose you need to change the height of the superstructure itself partially, in the place where the radar station is, using its method, the superstructure increasing upward! !!

      "Reinforced Karakurt" is the same manilovism to create a "Universal Destroyer" for state money. Moreover, the destroyer is not from a frigate or corvette, but from an MRC! As a singer to a singer, decide on your priorities - a ship for a radar or a radar for a SHIP !?
      1. Thrifty
        Thrifty 4 January 2021 16: 36
        0
        Scharnhorst - it is natural that the radar for the ship, so it is more true!
      2. Fizik M
        Fizik M 16 January 2021 02: 58
        0
        Quote: Scharnhorst
        "Reinforced Karakurt" is the same manilovism.

        Manilovism is your crazy articles lol
  • Snail N9
    Snail N9 4 January 2021 05: 41
    +27
    The author beats the alarm not for the first time, but to spare patriots, lovers of beautiful cartoons, and "and we are their Calibers, zircons, vanguards", "the whole world is in dust", etc. - it is useless to say something. I wrote here that I was perplexed , when I read reports about "successful" shooting at parachutes, ancient targets like that of a mammoth, based on n-15, or single NURS, so I was overwhelmed with minuses, like where are you climbing, we are all nishtyak and everything is done correctly and generally sit on couch, our admirals are no match for NATO and American-lumps of naval thought ...
    1. Doccor18
      Doccor18 4 January 2021 09: 32
      +16
      ..our admirals are no match for NATO and American-the lumps of naval thought ..

      And if you think about it, in the early 90s, today's admirals were about 30 years old. Cap lieutenant or cap rank 3. A terrible reduction in the fleet, lack of money and general layoffs. During this time, were there many major naval exercises ..? And how much do admirals decide on a profit-oriented day today ..?


      At the same time, we have real (alas, unused) opportunities for mass serial construction of quite effective and combat-ready ships.

      There were and are ... This only requires political will and strict control. But do politicians need a real combat fleet? That is the question...
      Obviously, at some point, someone made an “informed decision” that projects 20380 and 20385 should go down in history. And now we see a somersault - they will be built again. However, after losing "nowhere" for almost five years. But this is a trifle, right?

      And all this against the background of a catastrophic shortage of surface components in all four fleets of the country ... What is it?

      Thanks to the author for the article hi
      It is very painful to realize that the once powerful shipbuilding industry, which created projects 1144 and 941, is not able to bring to mind the ship of the near sea zone and saturate the fleet with them.
      1. timokhin-aa
        4 January 2021 13: 06
        +6
        unable to bring to mind the ship of the near sea zone and saturate the fleet with them.


        Quite able.
      2. Charik
        Charik 4 January 2021 17: 37
        +2
        Priority oil tankers and yachts
    2. timokhin-aa
      4 January 2021 10: 58
      +10
      Yes, there is such a thing, but little by little the understanding that guns cannot be cleaned with bricks seeps into the people.
      1. Scharnhorst
        Scharnhorst 4 January 2021 14: 16
        -2
        guns cannot be cleaned with bricks

        Respected! You seem to be lost in the 18th century, it is no longer relevant to hammer nails with a microscope! ”Modern weapons in the hands of an advanced PC user - that's where the problem lies ...
      2. ver_
        ver_ 4 January 2021 15: 10
        +2
        ... but what, the people decide something? ..
    3. Volder
      Volder 5 January 2021 10: 38
      -7
      Quote: Snail N9
      lovers of beautiful cartoons, and "and we are their Calibers, zircons, vanguards", "the whole world is in dust", etc. - it is useless to say something.
      If you use Zircons and Daggers against aircraft carriers, then the air defense system is not needed. If you use Caliber and Onyx against destroyers and cruisers, then the air defense system will not be needed. However, this does not eliminate the problem of domestic air defense on our ships. Both successes and problems in the armed forces of the Russian Federation exist in parallel.
      1. Machito
        Machito 5 January 2021 12: 20
        +3
        In order to use Zircons and Daggers and other Calibers, you need target designation. And with him somehow it's not ice at all. What Klimov and Timokhin constantly write about.
        1. Volder
          Volder 6 January 2021 21: 14
          -5
          Quote: Bearded
          In order to use Zircons and Daggers and other Calibers, you need target designation.
          Over the past few years, the Ministry of Defense has launched more than 100 military satellites into orbit. Which ones are not always reported by the media. In addition, control units can provide nuclear submarines (for themselves and for frigates 22350), as well as AWACS aircraft. It is possible that the onboard radars of tactical aircraft will also be able to issue a control center. Here you need to understand that all weapons carriers are linked to each other in a single information circuit. Even the concept of "network-centric war" has appeared.
          1. Machito
            Machito 7 January 2021 00: 15
            +3
            What will satellites see through the clouds?
            How will nuclear submarines transmit target designation? Through a neutrino antenna through the earth to Baikal?
            What about naval aviation?
            You either finish reading science fiction or get drunk on the normal.
            1. Volder
              Volder 7 January 2021 02: 40
              -3
              What do you think, dozens and hundreds of aircraft are needed to issue CU? Oh well...
              Clouds are not permanent and tend to dissipate. How do you get satellite Google maps, have you ever wondered?
              The ability of nuclear submarines to issue control units to ships is (technically foreseen) and, moreover, soon such a method will be practiced during naval exercises. Follow the media news ...
  • passerby
    passerby 4 January 2021 06: 07
    -27%
    Again this nonsense - "there are good reasons to believe that the real results of the shooting ...". Where are these grounds, show them, and if there is nothing to show, then why ring the bell?
    1. Asad
      Asad 4 January 2021 06: 32
      +9
      What are your thoughts on the article? Nonsense too? I am not an expert, from the word at all, I will not whitewash, I will not denigrate. Reviews of real professionals are interesting!
    2. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 06: 45
      +19
      Quote: bystander
      and if there is nothing to show, then why ring the bell?

      The author officially applied to the prosecutor. Is this idle talk?
      1. passerby
        passerby 4 January 2021 06: 55
        -36%
        Thousands of crazy people turn to prosecutors every month, but the fact that they turned to the prosecutor does not make the nonsense written by them something sane and reasoned.
        Quote: Mordvin 3
        The author officially applied to the prosecutor. Is this idle talk?
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 06: 59
          +15
          Quote: bystander
          Thousands of crazy people turn to prosecutors every month,

          The chief military attorney? I would be on my guard without hard evidence.
          1. Crowe
            Crowe 4 January 2021 07: 17
            +41
            Captain 3rd rank in reserve Maksim Aleksandrovich Klimov is not crazy. He is an honest and not indifferent naval officer. "The road will be mastered by the walker" - this is just about such people. I respect.
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 07: 20
              +12
              Quote: Crowe
              I respect

              Yes. But I probably would not have had the courage.
            2. The comment was deleted.
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. Charik
                Charik 4 January 2021 17: 41
                +1
                There are cartoons on TV, and I will win everyone and I will win everyone, we saw this
            3. Vadim237
              Vadim237 5 January 2021 01: 10
              -8
              An expert torpedoes, a fan of pulling an owl on a globe - about the radar, such conclusions as if he were its designer.
            4. georg 2
              georg 2 11 January 2021 01: 49
              -2
              Captain 3rd rank in reserve Klimov Maxim Aleksandrovich is not crazy; he is an honest and caring naval officer.

              For the sake of objectivity, it must be added that he does not tolerate someone else's opinion that does not coincide with his and, in the absence of sufficient arguments in polemics, goes over to personalities and rudeness in communication. He can easily accuse a person of what he did not do, without having sufficient grounds for it. As for the rest, probably for relatives and friends, I admit, quite nice, honest and not indifferent naval officer, quite competent in many issues. This is the question of respect.
              1. Fizik M
                Fizik M 16 January 2021 02: 57
                0
                Quote: georg 2
                For the sake of objectivity, it must be added that he does not tolerate someone else's opinion that does not coincide with his and, in the absence of sufficient arguments in polemics, goes over to personalities and rudeness in communication. He can easily accuse a person of what he did not do, without having sufficient grounds for it. As for the rest, probably for relatives and friends, I admit, quite nice, honest and not indifferent naval officer, quite competent in many issues. This is the question of respect.

                For the sake of objectivity, it should be noted that Monsieur georg 2 is a false nonsense and one of the accomplices of the SCAM with "Ritsa" Yu. Bukovsky
                Bukovsky, tell us how YOUR "Ritsa" "worked" with the WIRES TORN FROM THE GAKES "giving out targets"
          2. passerby
            passerby 4 January 2021 12: 23
            -10%
            You seem to be quite an adequate person
            Quote: Mordvin 3
            The chief military attorney? I would be on my guard without hard evidence
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 12: 26
              +2
              Quote: bystander
              You seem to be quite an adequate person

              I'm not crazy. wink
          3. Lara Croft
            Lara Croft 5 January 2021 01: 14
            -5
            Quote: mordvin xnumx
            Quote: bystander
            Thousands of crazy people turn to prosecutors every month,

            The chief military attorney? I would be on my guard without hard evidence.

            Why go straight to the Chief Military Prosecutor, this is the lowest territorial link of the military prosecutor's office?
      2. Scharnhorst
        Scharnhorst 4 January 2021 14: 19
        +1
        Who will the prosecutor invite as an expert? The same co-author !?
        1. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 14: 25
          +7
          Quote: Scharnhorst
          Who will the prosecutor invite as an expert? The same co-author !?

          Who do you want? Let them appoint an independent examination. So that there were both Klimov and Admiral Chirkov.
          1. Charik
            Charik 4 January 2021 17: 44
            +1
            Yes, as a battle of rappers on the air, and specialists from the Army so that everything is honest, but this will not happen, liars only give official media interviews -which can be edited
    3. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 09: 38
      +19
      The grounds are simple - a modern air defense system on state vehicles should show that it is really multi-channel, and is able to simultaneously hit several targets with an image intensifier no more than 0.1-0.2 sq.

      That did not happen
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 11: 41
        +7
        I wonder who put a minus? Justify what you do not agree with! laughing
        1. timokhin-aa
          4 January 2021 13: 08
          +20
          This is a gaggle for pain. They cannot substantiate anything, they just feel pain from the fact that they open the cocoon in which they slept, and they jerk their hands in hysterics.
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 5 January 2021 01: 13
            -4
            Yes, yes, yes, especially those who exactly do not understand nichrome in air defense and radar are opening the cocoon.
          2. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 6 January 2021 10: 21
            +2
            It has become even funnier, there are already five minuses, I broadcast axioms at least it would seem !!!
      2. Scharnhorst
        Scharnhorst 4 January 2021 14: 23
        -8
        Even in the USSR, they could not test the system at the limit of the possible using the S-300 as an example. No complex system will pass such a test without many years of refinement.
    4. timokhin-aa
      4 January 2021 11: 01
      +19
      There are good reasons in the form of information from former colleagues and colleagues - a week before this article was written, the author was sure that Aldar did shoot, but he was dissuaded.

      I agree with him, in the video from "Thundering" on the radar screen in the center there is a powerful illumination from the interference that the miracle tower induces during operation, the "Aldar" has the same complex, why would it be different?

      Now explain, from the standpoint of what knowledge do you make such self-confident statements?
      1. Thrifty
        Thrifty 4 January 2021 12: 01
        0
        Timokhin-and is it impossible to filter out interference from your radar? Why not then put the radar spaced apart, two matches closer to the bow and stern, but not at the ship's wheelhouse?
        1. timokhin-aa
          4 January 2021 13: 03
          +11
          And how to filter out if the same antennas are pointing both the missile defense system and the gun? It is an integrated complex.
          1. Thrifty
            Thrifty 4 January 2021 13: 34
            -1
            Timokhin - won't change the frequency range? Or, for aiming, use another sub-range, which works specifically for aiming the antenna and missiles at the target!
            1. timokhin-aa
              4 January 2021 13: 35
              +8
              It's not for me, it's for the director.
      2. Eldorado
        Eldorado 4 January 2021 12: 19
        +1
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        There are good reasons in the form of information from former colleagues and colleagues - a week before this article was written, the author was sure that Aldar did shoot, but he was dissuaded.

        I agree with him, in the video from "Thundering" on the radar screen in the center there is a powerful illumination from the interference that the miracle tower induces during operation, the "Aldar" has the same complex, why would it be different?

        Now explain, from the standpoint of what knowledge do you make such self-confident statements?

        By the way, not "Aldar Tsidenzhapov", but "Tsydenzhapov". Correct the article!
      3. passerby
        passerby 4 January 2021 12: 27
        -14%
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Now explain, from the standpoint of what knowledge do you make such self-confident statements?

        What statements am I making?
        1. timokhin-aa
          4 January 2021 13: 04
          +12
          Like these ones
          Again this nonsense
          1. passerby
            passerby 4 January 2021 14: 56
            -10%
            There, after the word "delirium", a quote from the article is given, which I consider to be nonsense. Read ads to the end (from)
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Like these ones
            Again this nonsense
            1. timokhin-aa
              4 January 2021 15: 00
              +10
              How do you - name, position and rank bring the one who voiced the information about the gun? Klimov himself, a week before writing the article, was sure that there was a shooting. But quite trustworthy people dissuaded him.
              1. passerby
                passerby 5 January 2021 03: 25
                -3
                That is why I call it nonsense, when a person formulates unsupported theses based only on the fact that "gentlemen need to be trusted" and starts from these unsubstantiated theses to unfold an article about "how bad everything is with us." And yes, give the name, title and position of the person who voiced it, and if you cannot do this, then the price of your article, based on someone who's fantasies, is not worth it.
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                How do you - name, position and rank bring the one who voiced the information about the gun? Klimov himself, a week before writing the article, was sure that there was a shooting. But quite trustworthy people dissuaded him.
                1. Fizik M
                  Fizik M 16 January 2021 02: 55
                  -2
                  Quote: bystander
                  a person formulates unconfirmed theses based only on the fact that "gentlemen need to be trusted" and begins from these unfounded theses to unfold an article about "how bad everything is with us."

                  go to the optometrist
                  already according to the official video of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, the scale of TRESHA is visible
    5. Charik
      Charik 4 January 2021 17: 38
      0
      there was already an article on this topic - you probably accidentally passed by
  • Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 06: 35
    +3
    Judging by Tryapochkin's signature, he has a huge conceit. The generals sign in this way, where the major will indicate.
  • Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 4 January 2021 06: 52
    +21
    Definitely a plus! yes
    No matter how much you ignore or mask the problem, it will not go anywhere. It must be DECIDED!
    And it will be better if the problem is resolved in peacetime, rather than being revealed during what thread of the conflict. Then again you will have to really look at things (as after the defeat in the RJAV). And this is provided that the state will still exist, but it is one thing to start putting sights on guns, and another thing to make complex electronic devices that can work effectively (not effectively on the camera, but efficiently) ...
    The position of the owner ("Sinara") in this situation is, to put it mildly, strange. The actions of "Sinara" make one wonder whether those who believe that "Sinara" wants to bring "Zvezda" into bankruptcy and sell the vacated territories of the plant in St. Petersburg for residential development are right? It is not a fact that this is so. But it looks very similar

    and this generally does not fit into any gate. BUT! Hello to wild capitalism and private property. The IVS in the coffin has already turned over more than once when he sees "from there" that they are doing with his legacy request
  • mark1
    mark1 4 January 2021 07: 00
    +18
    This is how it should be - to "hammer" with inquiries and publish all this correspondence between "Engels and Kautsky".
    1. timokhin-aa
      4 January 2021 11: 02
      +22
      So they hammer. Klimov has a pack of docks already. He says bluntly, I am saving up formal replies so that these rats then could not excuse themselves and say that no one knew anything.
      1. Machito
        Machito 4 January 2021 11: 40
        +6
        On the switchman, they will hang all the unsubscriptions, and go ahead for the ranks, awards.
        1. timokhin-aa
          4 January 2021 14: 39
          +18
          But no. People of the level of the Deputy Chief Commander sign something.
          Then they brought up such a Deputy Chief Committee on trial, and he responded - and I gave an answer, but I owed it up, a report from such and such a date.
          And the chain will go to unwind.
          The country must know its heroes.
          But this is a bad option, all this in this format will take place following the analysis of combat losses.

          The meaning of the noise in the press is to solve everything BEFORE the ships have to go into battle.
          1. Machito
            Machito 4 January 2021 16: 46
            +5
            Go into battle with a weapon that is useless? With such weapons, corvettes only smoke the sky at the jar, line up in a line in parades in the port, and make friendly visits under serious cover.
          2. DrEng527
            DrEng527 4 January 2021 19: 36
            +4
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            The meaning of the noise in the press is to solve everything BEFORE the ships have to go into battle.

            a good task, but is it solvable in principle? Experience shows that changes began AFTER ... and even then not always ... although I want to believe in the best ... repeat to the author and you reshpect for trying!
          3. bayard
            bayard 5 January 2021 10: 17
            +6
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            The meaning of the noise in the press is to solve everything BEFORE the ships have to go into battle.

            A very necessary and timely article, a topic that has been discussed more than once, and not even ten times on our forums. Now we need a RESONANCE of public opinion to force common sense into irresponsible "responsible" persons. And BEFORE the real bookmarks of the ships of the new series.
            The idea that corvettes should finally win must be inexpensive and massive ASW ships in the near zone, the main task of which is anti-submarine warfare!
            And air defense systems should be of a necessary, but auxiliary character, because in BMZ corvettes will operate under the cover of basic fighter aircraft, and, if necessary, be accompanied by larger ships with advanced air defense (the same frigates 22350). After all, corvettes never go out on PLO missions alone, as a rule they go out in groups, and in a threatened period, a frigate with a Polyment-Redoubt can accompany each such group.
            And to do the same revival of anti-submarine aviation !!!
            Water areas like ours (on the same Far East) cannot be controlled by surface forces alone. This task is capable of handling ONLY aviation - PLO, air defense, AWACS and patrol, and surface ships - to ensure a constant presence in the most critical areas.
            And work on their combat interaction.
      2. Volder
        Volder 5 January 2021 10: 50
        -2
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Klimov has a pack of docks already. He says bluntly, I am saving up formal replies so that these rats then could not excuse themselves and say that no one knew anything.
        Can this "stack of replies" be sent to the FSB so that it can join in the verification of high-level officials? They cover each other there, but the thread still leads somewhere ...
        1. Stepan S
          Stepan S 5 January 2021 12: 54
          +4
          The thread will not lead anywhere until there is a command from above to investigate something like that. No operatic or FSB investigator would engage in such an amateur performance.
    2. Lara Croft
      Lara Croft 5 January 2021 01: 18
      -1
      Quote: mark1
      it is necessary - to "hammer" with requests and publish all this correspondence

      And what has VO?
      1. bayard
        bayard 5 January 2021 10: 25
        +3
        Quote: Lara Croft
        And what has VO?

        To PUBLISH, to discuss in forums, to provide a public response and to compel the responsible / irresponsible persons to COMMON SENSE.
        And where else should such articles be published?
        1. Lara Croft
          Lara Croft 5 January 2021 12: 49
          -1
          Quote: bayard
          Quote: Lara Croft
          And what has VO?

          To PUBLISH, discuss on forums, provide public resonance

          For public resonance here on VO, and so many write, on the topic and not ...
          to compel the responsible / irresponsible persons to COMMON SENSE.

          to be held accountable, not to common sense (it was necessary to appeal to him at the R&D stage) ...
          At the end of the article, usually citizens who want to draw attention to the facts of crimes published by them turn to law enforcement agencies and / or prosecutors ... on the basis of which a check by the military prosecutor's office can be carried out ...
          paragraph 2, clause 2, article 47 of the Federal Law "On the Prosecutor's Office of the Russian Federation" of January 17.01.1992, 2202 N1-XNUMX
          http://www.consultant.ru/document/cons_doc_LAW_262/c2790a20687c487d99051eaaff3d560e07a100d0/
          And where else should such articles be published?

          The newspaper "Gudok" for example .....
          By the way, the author could exercise his right within the framework of Article 38 of the Law "On Mass Media" or apply to a member of the Federation Council or a deputy of the State Duma with an appeal and further forwarding of the last Requests to the competent authorities and relevant organizations ... (Article 14 of the Federal Law "On the Status of a Council Member Federation and the status of a deputy of the State Duma of the Federal Assembly of the Russian Federation "dated 08.05.1994/3/XNUMX N XNUMX-FZ)
          http://www.consultant.ru/document/cons_doc_LAW_3637/29103316982a6f4e309dc20d47428373b233ad24/
          1. bayard
            bayard 5 January 2021 13: 17
            -1
            Quote: Lara Croft
            to be held accountable, not common sense

            To do this, you need to be a King with full powers. yes
            Quote: Lara Croft
            usually, citizens who want to draw attention to the facts of crimes published by them turn to law enforcement agencies and / or prosecutors ... on the basis of which a check by the military prosecutor's office can be carried out ...

            Have you read the article?
            There are, after all, the texts of such appeals ... And to the military prosecutor's office, and to the president, and the commander-in-chief of the Navy, and to the FSB and a number of other instances, the author has provided, quoted and even presented screenshots.
            Everything has already been done, and not once ... but many, many times.
            And the article is for publicity.
            This (article) is for military specialists, and an outsider will not understand everything in it.
            And soon Timokhin's new article will be published in a more popular and detailed presentation for a less prepared reader.

            And it is very good that Maxim did not give up and continues to fight for common sense and the future of the Navy.
            hi
  • anclevalico
    anclevalico 4 January 2021 07: 17
    +12
    You read and tears well up.
    1. Soko
      Soko 7 January 2021 16: 34
      +18
      Quote: anclevalico
      You read and tears well up

      You read and your fists clench am
  • NDR-791
    NDR-791 4 January 2021 07: 20
    +11

    That's all there is to know. The commander-in-chief will not be reported ... once again. I understand that "consultant E. Zybkin" is formally, from the point of view of office work, right. But you can drive in a circle so you can endlessly. And this is instead of raising this issue at the Security Council calling the same commander-in-chief of the Navy.
  • Proton
    Proton 4 January 2021 07: 37
    +8
    Author, please correct.
    "Hero of Russia Aldar Tsidenzhapov" project 20380
    The correct surname of Aldar is Tsydenzhapov.
    Yours!
    1. timokhin-aa
      4 January 2021 13: 05
      +11
      The edit request has been sent.
  • Nikolay1987
    Nikolay1987 4 January 2021 09: 05
    +20
    Whatever moves the author, he has a huge respect. Simply without wasting time, he did everything in his power, as an interested citizen and with the help of his communication tools.
  • Adimius38
    Adimius38 4 January 2021 09: 16
    +15
    Yes, the author revealed the problems, huge problems that the first channel will not talk about and journalists will not ask Uncle Vova why everything is happening this way. And the answer is simple - "Effective managers" run the country. Why go far, look who is our Minister of Agriculture, economist, financier, banker ...... what does he have to do with agriculture ???? And this is all too often.
    1. timokhin-aa
      4 January 2021 11: 08
      +19
      Here the problem is deeper. The contingent from the 90s could not survive in conditions when the authorities were putting things in order and migrated en masse to where the police and the FSB were not allowed to move under the conditions of secrecy - to the defense industry.
      The scale of this phenomenon is not known to anyone among the people, but they are enormous. We now have a scheme working like:
      "The organized crime group is pushing through the government the unnecessary ROC in order to pass the financial flow through the sheltered military design bureau and warm their hands."

      Up there, it's still being decided through murders. We don't have time to get into the "bread" tender? We will not have time to cancel through "ours" either? Get the organizer down faster!
      Further, as the FSB has time. If it has time, then there will be a tender, if not ...
      I wrote this conditional example without reference to specific events, but as an illustration of how new ships and submarines are born in Russia. Still
      1. Charik
        Charik 4 January 2021 17: 54
        0
        from America they take an example - there the mafia has long understood that the military-industrial complex is a gold mine that's been waging wars for 100 years - they got hold of a bit on alcohol - then they invested in the war, they robbed half the world - and then they flooded
      2. DrEng527
        DrEng527 4 January 2021 19: 41
        +1
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        We now have a scheme working like:

        it is a bomb if published, but should the media decide?
  • Khibiny Plastun
    Khibiny Plastun 4 January 2021 10: 05
    +20
    It is necessary to speak frankly, this is treason, bringing the Russian fleet into an unusable state. This is exactly what is happening, and moreover, they themselves finance it. The destruction of the Russian fleet occurs at the expense of Russia.
    1. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan 4 January 2021 17: 18
      +15
      Guys, such things are happening not only in the navy, in the rest of the army it is about the same, in the economy too, in politics too, there is incompetence and eyewash all around.
      Almost all the current problems of Russia and the people are in the quality of governance. The problem is that the so-called. elite is not elite in the best sense of the word.
      Judging by the results of the work of the current political "elite" of Russia, it is clear that the country is brought to the brink of a new civilizational and national catastrophe - at least the extinction of the Russian people testifies to this, the population of our country is dramatically decreasing. Another 20 years of similar rule and the khan, there is simply no one to raise the economy, we will bring guest workers, and who will move science and high technologies?
      1. DrEng527
        DrEng527 4 January 2021 19: 43
        +2
        Quote: Fan-Fan
        Practically all the current problems of Russia and the people are in the quality of governance.

        yes, it has always been that way - our country is rich, but there is no order ... request
      2. Vadim237
        Vadim237 5 January 2021 01: 16
        -3
        You would generally keep quiet about where what is going on - you do not participate in any work.
  • Connor MacLeod
    Connor MacLeod 4 January 2021 10: 06
    +14
    I would listen to the leadership of the Fleet ...
  • soul
    soul 4 January 2021 10: 21
    +20
    Respect to the author, as for the previous articles.
    I just thought - but it was possible to use a radar from a frigate on a corvette, if the creators really wanted an expensive ship. Then there would be at least uro. But no, you won't bite off a lot from the budget!
    Let's hope that all those involved in embezzlement and forgery will sit down am
    1. timokhin-aa
      4 January 2021 11: 09
      +11
      Yes, it is not necessary, dear. This is not a cruiser, this is a corvette, why overcomplicate it so?
  • Foxnova
    Foxnova 4 January 2021 10: 29
    +3
    At one time it was the same with polyment-redoubt.

    If you put only serial solutions, you will always be lagging behind.

    It always has been

    In the whole article there is no fact about the ibmc, only the thread does not work, it cannot work, so I said so. No numbers, nothing

    Note: for today - not a single air target was shot down by the IBMK "Zaslon".

    Well, it's an outright lie because the target of the wrong system


    Formally, communication means are not included in the MF RLK, but in fact they are a single complex with the MF radar (including taking into account the problems of electromagnetic compatibility), since they are located mainly in a single integrated tower-mast structure (IBMK). This question is very difficult, to put it mildly. Previous corvettes had huge communication problems.


    It has nothing to do with the ibmk communication at all, even from the photographs of the thundering one, it is clear that the communication antennas are scattered throughout the ship
    And communication problems on previous orders
    The same technique breaks down as always. Although the communication complex is practically the same as on 11356 and 22350, it is only slightly thinner and the author has no complaints about it.

    1. timokhin-aa
      4 January 2021 11: 16
      +13
      At one time it was the same with polyment-redoubt.


      1. But before it was fine-tuned, the "Gorshkov" were not accepted, they were tortured on the head to a combat-ready state and then put into production. And on corvettes, they put a piece of work on ALL ships of the project, about which it is not known whether it will work or not.
      2. On a corvette such an expensive (4+ billion) complex is superfluous due to the huge price. Even if it worked as it should, he would not have allowed to build ships more or less massively, and they are needed massively, we have a high level of underwater threat.

      In the whole article there is no fact about the ibmc, only the thread does not work, it cannot work, so I said so. No numbers, nothing


      And what numbers do you need after shooting the "Thundering"?
      Target hitting range? 9000 m. Height? - 90-100. The number of firings in which something was lost by the missile defense system? 1. The number of artillery fires - 0.
      What else to voice?
      Even the Ministry of Defense does not claim about Aldar that he fired anti-aircraft missiles.
      1. Khibiny Plastun
        Khibiny Plastun 4 January 2021 14: 18
        +5
        I think that everything is much worse, there in the Attic, everyone understands everything, and they do not care about the combat effectiveness of the ships under construction, but the price of the issue is important, the more expensive, the better. There is a looting of the budget, but so that you will not dig in, This does not need combat-ready ships, they need expensive ships. The main thing is the development of the budget, not combat effectiveness.
        Zeroed, surrounded by its parasites, will not change anything. The cost of the issue is hundreds of billions. And everyone is happy ... Except for the fleet. And our grunting from somewhere below does not interest them at all.
        1. timokhin-aa
          4 January 2021 14: 26
          +12
          Let's just say it would be a mistake to row everyone with the same comb, but there are people with the same convictions that you described. And they have a lot of power.
          1. Khibiny Plastun
            Khibiny Plastun 4 January 2021 17: 05
            +1
            You wrote diplomatically, but I am afraid that this tangle of reptiles of the occupying power will not allow the presence of decent people who care for the Fatherland, because they are a threat to them and a threat to their well-being. Only a complete change of power will help, but this is from the realm of fantasy.
            And here we are letting off steam in social networks, in general, about nothing ...
          2. Fan-fan
            Fan-fan 4 January 2021 17: 22
            0
            We would live to see the time when such officials will be tried.
      2. Foxnova
        Foxnova 4 January 2021 15: 25
        -2
        On Gorshkov, next to the PR, practically nothing from missiles to galiyuns worked

        Problems with the hook, problems with rtc, problems with bius, communication engines ... etc. They were tormented precisely because of this

        It was the same with the fort, which was brought up after it was installed without being put into service and with a dagger

        Where are you going to fight the underwater threat in the open ocean? It’s useless to go there without an aircraft carrier.
        WW2 and Falklands showed it.
        The bastions have peri-coverings from ground airfields
        1. timokhin-aa
          5 January 2021 00: 15
          +4
          On Gorshkov, next to the PR, practically nothing from missiles to galiyuns worked

          Well, they covered up these hundreds of comments BEFORE the flag was raised, didn't they?

          Where are you going to fight the underwater threat in the open ocean?


          What does the open ocean have to do with it?
          1. Foxnova
            Foxnova 5 January 2021 00: 42
            -3
            Despite the fact that whatever air defense on ships would not go beyond the actions of coastal aviation without an aircraft carrier, this is suicide.

            And within the limits of its action everyone will shoot under the direction of the AWACS aircraft because it is big for him.

            And in general, something tells me that the fleet at sea as usual will not come out because in this form it has nothing to do there. And we do not have enough funds to bring him to that state so that he can solve other problems except to die with honor.

            We'd better build another zenith arena.
            And here you consider the mast for 6 billion gold, although this is the most expensive part of any air defense ship, it is very expensive, it is simply unrealistically expensive
            1. timokhin-aa
              5 January 2021 12: 05
              +2
              Well, here is the exit from the White Sea, the Kuril straits, etc. it is not an open ocean.
              And PLO ships are quite needed there.
              And a massive strike by enemy aircraft on ASW forces is quite real, and the fact that part of the aircraft or ASP will break through to the KPUG is also real.
              1. Foxnova
                Foxnova 5 January 2021 12: 17
                -2
                And you want to cut off the air defense of corvettes altogether as on the Type 56 in favor of mass production.
                Than we will fight back.
                There is an expensive but promising solution. Any air defense is very expensive, so specific. And if they can bring it, then on the second rank we will get the possibility of zonal air defense.
                And about the fact that they will not finish or it does not work as it should, there are only the words of the author, which for some reason are elevated into an axiom.
                What does not work and will not be finished because it will not be finished.
                Although what we see in fact, on one side of the word, on the other, is the defeat of the RM zrk, but let the RM not system. Words and real work seem to me different scales
            2. Siberian54
              Siberian54 5 January 2021 18: 21
              +1
              So we came to the question: why do we need aircraft carriers in the North and Pacific Fleet ..
        2. bayard
          bayard 5 January 2021 10: 55
          +6
          Quote: FoxNova
          Where are you going to fight the underwater threat in the open ocean? It’s useless to go there without an aircraft carrier.

          Yes, in the same "forts", or do you think that the enemy's MPSS do not go to the Okhotsk and Barents Seas?
          They not only "walk" there, but are often PRESENT on a permanent basis.
          Take a look at our coastal waters ... fellow It is impossible to control such wealth without a developed anti-submarine and patrol aviation, without a sufficient number of AWACS aircraft, without a developed network of fighter airfields. And aviation also cannot hang continuously in the air, therefore, the presence of PLO ships in the most critical areas of our BMZ is necessary.
          And for this, such ships must be.
          Massively and unreasonable for the budget.
          Look at the corvettes of our neighbors on the planet, does any of them put on ships of such a VI and with such tasks radar from a frigate?
          Not !
          1. Foxnova
            Foxnova 5 January 2021 11: 56
            -3
            In the bastions, this should be solved by stationary means of Gap in cooperation with aviation, we look at the nipples, because keeping ships constantly at sea is expensive. And if you look at the configuration of the vmb in the north with a narrow neck at the exit, it will be a massacre even before the nc goes to the open sea
            1. bayard
              bayard 5 January 2021 13: 07
              +2
              Quote: FoxNova
              In the bastions, this should be solved by stationary means of Gap

              Do you mean bottom sonar systems?
              But how effective are they and will they be effective in a conflict, if in peacetime the enemy's MAPL periodically puts them out of action, plowing their positions with bottom trawls?
              Quote: FoxNova
              in cooperation with aviation

              To do this, you need to have it (PLO aviation).
              Do we have it?
              And what is the quality and quantity of what we "are"?
              Today, with a shortage or absence of workable and combat-ready PLO aircraft, with an extreme shortage of MAPLs, the need for ASW surface weapons in the fleets is very high. Soviet-built IPCs are already crumbling and do not correspond to the composition of the weapons and the quality of hydroacoustics. We need new, massive and inexpensive PLO BMZ ships with moderate air defense, because in BMZ they will be covered by basic aviation and, in a threatened period, frigates and other ships of the fleet with a sufficiently developed air defense.
              Quote: FoxNova
              And if you look at the configuration of the vmb in the north with a narrow neck at the exit, it will be a massacre even before the nc goes to the open sea

              You propose to lock yourself in the naval base and not stick your nose out of there belay
              What kind of "massacre" were you afraid of near your native shores?
              Under the cover of their base aviation, coastal missile systems, diesel-electric submarines (which guard the approaches to our bases, and ensure the safety of the withdrawal of SSBNs and SSGNs into the open sea ... Under the cover of all available surface forces of the Fleet?
              Yes, enemy air submarines regularly / periodically guard our submarines at the exit from the base, but before each exit such a chaos is arranged there ... and even in a threatened, and even more so a war period, measures will be taken much more radical.
              1. Foxnova
                Foxnova 5 January 2021 13: 26
                -2
                Once again, our fleet has exactly one task to withdraw the RPKN from the base and be destroyed. All the rest is fantasy, we objectively cannot solve other problems in a global war.
                1. bayard
                  bayard 5 January 2021 14: 05
                  +1
                  Quote: FoxNova
                  Everything else is a fantasy, we objectively cannot solve other problems in a global war.

                  And in the global world?
                  And in cooperation with other branches of the military?
                  With aviation, coastal PCs, operational tactical and MRBM complexes (because it is already possible)?
                  Just tell me, who, with what forces and means, will destroy our surface fleet in the "bastions"?
                  Aviation?
                  But the areas of combat deployment are quite far from their (enemy's) shores.
                  Will the aircraft carriers be brought up?
                  But then they will expose them to the attack of our anti-ship weapons. And it will be VERY hard for them to fight back.
                  MAPL?
                  But "bastions" by definition will / must have the maximum possible anti-submarine defense.
                  About ships for which, among other things, we are talking about in this article, under the cover of more serious ships of the Fleet with developed capabilities for air defense, anti-aircraft defense, having on board very effective and long-range anti-ship missiles ... smile
                  And all this must be considered in a complex and dynamic way.
                  Despite the difficulties and delays, the Navy's surface ships are being built. A series of frigates 22350 is under construction, the modernization of the Admiral Nakhimov and Peter the Great is being completed, the modernization of pr. 1155 has begun, which adds very good shock capabilities to the excellent anti-submarine ships ...
                  Next in line is the laying of a series of frigate destroyers (in fact - destroyers), project 22350M.
                  Even in 2 - 3 years our fleet will look completely different. "Nakhimov" and "Kuznetsov" alone will greatly revive the picture. Plus a couple of new frigates 22350, plus a couple more upgraded 1155. And don't forget about the underwater component.
                  This is certainly not a "high seas fleet", but in BMZ it will feel much more confident.
                  1. Foxnova
                    Foxnova 5 January 2021 14: 14
                    -3
                    There are 2 types of ships, submarines and targets for them. Just look at the number of DPL nuclear submarines in NATO countries and in ours
                    And you will understand what will happen in the bastions
                    1. bayard
                      bayard 5 January 2021 15: 09
                      +2
                      And what will happen in the places of arrival of SLBMs from these bastions ...
                      In order for something terrible to happen in these places (their arrival), the forces of the surface and submarine fleets are needed, for the combat stability of these "bastions", and what will happen after the launch of the SLBM ... a war without rules and restrictions.
                      1. Foxnova
                        Foxnova 5 January 2021 16: 49
                        -2
                        There was recently an article on nuclear war. If it hurts briefly but not fatally

                        And it seems to me that if it comes to launching br then the war is already going on without rules and restrictions. Only in the USA, someone expects that after takeoff of a type BR with a reduced charge, everyone who has their own BR will not start
                      2. bayard
                        bayard 5 January 2021 22: 16
                        +2
                        In the same way, in the old days, they dreamed of a "limited war in Europe" - they say there will be tin and a meat grinder, but it will not fly to America ... So they are dreaming again.
    2. Foxnova
      Foxnova 4 January 2021 15: 38
      -1
      11356 were also adopted after one Zur firing with the exception of Makarov, where the calm was tortured

      I see no exclamations
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 17: 54
        +4
        Quote: FoxNova
        11356 were also adopted after one firing


        Tell me why it surprises you if the tests were essentially cut off Hurricane, long worked out, with which there were also dances with a tambourine at 956.
        At Aldar and Thundering, we essentially have a fundamentally new UO complex. By the way, and on the floating stand Zaslon, I suppose did not pass the working off? And so it will do. (from.)
  • Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 11: 44
    +7
    Quote: FoxNova
    Well, it's an outright lie because the target of the wrong system


    Since when did the dear RM-15 begin to represent a typical enemy target at sea - Harpoon-type anti-ship missiles? Huh?

    At one time it was the same with polyment-redoubt.

    It wasn't like that with him. At first. Secondly, let us assume that this is the case, on what basis they decided today to repeat the mistakes of the Polyment-Reduta development, excluding the development of the complex at Plavstend in sea conditions. This is the main reason for the problems with Polyment in due time ..
    1. Foxnova
      Foxnova 4 January 2021 15: 30
      -3
      So it seems that the idea of ​​a redoubt on a corvette is a struggle with the carrier of the asp and not with the ASP itself.
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 17: 41
        +7
        So. And let's figure out the zones of destruction of the air defense system required in this case. I got at least 80 km far border. Why is this so? This is the drop range of the "Small Bomb", that is, SDB2 at sea targets. I hope no one will have a question about RCC? But in reality, you need to focus on 120 kilometers. At the same time, the ammunition load of pr.20385 is no more than 16 long-range missiles, and yes, one should not forget about the nightmarish price of half a million cu. for the hundredth product !!!! Something is clearly going wrong. My IMHO does not need to torment the owl by pulling on the globe, the long-range air defense of the OVR detachment should be provided by a frigate or aircraft. Otherwise, we won't have enough money to sew up the Trishkin caftan of the dying OVR forces.
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 16 January 2021 02: 53
    0
    Quote: FoxNova
    In the whole article there is no fact about the ibmc, only the thread does not work, it cannot work, so I said so. No numbers, nothing

    How are you with vision? - see the official video of the RF Ministry of Defense
    or INCONVENIENT FACTS "really don't want to see each other"?
    Quote: FoxNova
    Well, it's an outright lie because the target of the wrong system

    lie is YOUR
    Quote: FoxNova
    It has nothing to do with the ibmk communication at all, even from the photographs of the thundering one, it is clear that the communication antennas are scattered throughout the ship

    they put up the 2nd mast for them
    which on "shared corvettes" NO
    with all the consequences
    Quote: FoxNova
    the author has no complaints against him

    THE FLEET HAS
    and serious
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 16 January 2021 03: 53
    0
    Quote: FoxNova
    At one time it was the same with polyment-redoubt.

    which was originally made as an air defense system with extremely high performance characteristics - in conditions of severe underfunding
    Quote: FoxNova
    If you put only serial solutions, you will always be lagging behind.

    Barrier is NOT a promising solution
    not to mention the fact that the loot was generously "gagged" for 10 (ten) years
    at the exit - obser
    even RK SAM is not!
    Quote: FoxNova
    In the whole article there is no fact about the ibmc, only the thread does not work, it cannot work, so I said so. No numbers, nothing

    do YOU ​​have a vision like?
    see the official video of the RF Ministry of Defense
    Quote: FoxNova
    Note: for today - not a single air target was shot down by the IBMK "Zaslon".

    exactly so - at the time of the report
    Quote: FoxNova
    Well, it's an outright lie because the target of the wrong system

    Lying here you
    Quote: FoxNova
    It has nothing to do with the ibmk communication at all, even from the photographs of the thundering one, it is clear that the communication antennas are scattered throughout the ship

    then that the second mast of YOUR vision was "leant" enough to see?
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 4 January 2021 11: 09
    +2
    Thanks to uv Maxim Klimov for a clear and courageous consideration of the problem, of course, the main thing in the ship is not the hulls and their number, but the effectiveness of combat assets.
    However, my opinion is that there is no shortage of surface ships, since they have a very narrow range of tasks in modern warfare, drones, and missiles. Even more advanced combat systems are not able to eliminate the key problem of NK, visibility (as opposed to submarines) and slow speed (as opposed to coastal aviation). We need corvettes ovr-plo-air defense, but not so urgently, in the face of an acute shortage of minesweepers and coastal aviation, problems with stationary underwater systems, a shortage of nuclear submarines = the main force of the fleet, corvettes are tertiary ... my opinion is to stop laying surface ships (except minesweepers), and start fine-tuning the systems of the corvette and the minesweeper, up to only modernizing new (and old) ships to increase their combat effectiveness, without building new ones. When all systems are brought into serviceability, new ASW aircraft and nuclear submarines will be built in sufficient numbers (and when will this happen?), Or when the number of NKs becomes critical (in 10 years), then the issue of building new NKs can be considered.
    1. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 4 January 2021 11: 27
      +4
      modern war = war of camouflage, which was again shown by the events in Karabakh, the principle of "shoot and hide", let's take for example not a corvette, but the cruiser Nakhimov, the most powerful warship in the world ... it is also destroyed at sea, it is vulnerable because it is visible! .... 96 long-range air defense missiles! ... plus huge means of short-range air defense anti-aircraft defense, the trouble is that the potential enemy has a number of missiles exceeding the means of destruction of the ship's air defense, and the sad fate of all large battleships, Tsushima and Port Arthur, is caused by the obsolescence of the the concept of a prominent large surface ship. because it is a tasty target and costs an order of magnitude more expensive than the means that are used to destroy it, so it turns out that our beautiful Nakhimov, in case of war, will perform the functions of a coastal PLO frigate (only very powerful) under the umbrella of coastal assets and coastal aviation (ay where is she? )
    2. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 4 January 2021 11: 56
      +5
      Quote: vladimir1155
      or when the number of NKs becomes critical (after 10 years), the issue of building new NKs can be considered.

      It is already critical. Right now. In fact, our fleet is not capable of performing the assigned tasks.
      Just compare the Black Sea fleet with the Turkish, the Pacific with the Japanese, the Baltic and the North with the European. By pennants and tonnage. Not to mention the quality. You don't even need a US Navy.
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 4 January 2021 20: 06
        0
        Quote: OgnennyiKotik
        Just compare the Black Sea fleet with the Turkish, the Pacific with the Japanese, the Baltic and the North with the European. By pennants and tonnage. Not to mention the quality. You don't even need a US Navy.

        why compare? are we going to compete with them? what for? does it matter how many ships in the Baltic in the Black Sea or the Yapoga Sea? there not ships will decide everything, but aviation and ground-based missile systems. there the fleet is simply not needed from the word at all, as long as it goes out to sea it will be destroyed by land means. So why have it, except for a few pennants on duty against pirates and provocateurs. On the oceans, all these countries are linked into a single military bloc with the United States, and confrontation with each one is unlikely, each one individually will not attack the Russian Federation, because we will simply bomb it with nuclear missiles. The Russian Federation must prepare for a big war, that is, NATO + Japan (bound by a military treaty with the United States) .... and the weaklings and without a large fleet will win. Against NATO and Japan, the surface fleet is also not useful, because all the same, no matter how hard it is, they will have an overwhelming advantage, which means everything will be decided by stealth, one submarine and a warrior at sea, and even several surface ships are useless against an enemy exceeding several tens of times, just throw rockets and that's it. So why build suicide ships? Isn't it better to allocate resources for coastal aviation, nuclear submarines, and land-based missiles of all types?
  • Andre___86
    Andre___86 4 January 2021 12: 35
    +23
    In general, this is a common problem not only for the military-industrial complex, but for the entire industry. I work in the field of mechanical engineering, mining equipment. All developments - based on Soviet projects with modern electronic stuffing, there is no new one. There are endless upgrades. There was a Ural combine, it became KPO. And the principle is the same.
    For the manufacturer, the main thing is turnover and profit. Hence, instead of steel 20x2n4a, we use 18xgt for the gear shafts. Works? Works. Does the guarantee go away? Moves away. But then .... After 1.5-2 years, a fracture of the tooth. Broken? Fine!!! We are ready to supply you with spare parts.
    There are managers (I met a warehouse manager the other day))), production workers, and unit engineers. Leading positions are occupied by matchmakers, brothers and others. We have a teacher in charge of hydraulics. There are a lot of problems in service - but everything is bought cheaper.
    A bunch of firms such as manufacturers who win tenders, place orders in China and then under their logo - on the site "made by ***" boast of another success. Only not its own industry, but probably the Chinese one. I have a lot of examples and you just can't tell everything in a comment. You need to write an article)))))
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 4 January 2021 12: 47
      +9
      The same horseradish in Belarus! Rampant nepotism, the cheapest purchases, no one cares about the quality ... request
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 12: 50
        +5
        Quote: Rurikovich
        the cheapest purchases don't care about the quality ...

        If your product quality is poor, as you say, then we are generally in darkness. sad
        1. Rurikovich
          Rurikovich 4 January 2021 12: 58
          +5
          I mean industry, service smile More products, thank God, ugh, ugh winked you can eat
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 13: 05
            +5
            Quote: Rurikovich
            I mean industry

            And we don't have it at all. I worked at four enterprises, all of them ordered to live long.
            Quote: Rurikovich
            service sector

            There were parikhmaters' and pubs at every step. As well as shops. Some traders all around.
            1. Charik
              Charik 4 January 2021 18: 02
              0
              Pharmacy forgot-shop with devour-beer-pharmacy
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 4 January 2021 18: 25
                +1
                Quote: Charik
                Forgotten pharmacies

                Just about ... Also on every corner divorced.
    2. Nestor Vlakhovski
      Nestor Vlakhovski 4 January 2021 19: 14
      -2
      For the manufacturer, the main thing is turnover and profit.
      It is a perfectly healthy pursuit that is the motto of all leading companies.
      Hence, instead of steel 20x2n4a, we use 18xgt for the gear shafts. Works? Works. Does the guarantee go away? Moves away. But then ...
      ... but then no one will buy your products, which will entail a collapse in profits and bankruptcy. Where is the logic? Are you sure you work for a private company, or is your combine harvester plant parasitizing on the state budget?
  • iouris
    iouris 4 January 2021 13: 23
    +5
    The "near zone" is getting closer and closer (they are already talking about some kind of "Belarusian Sea"). And the population without real business degrades and dies out (according to official statistics).
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 4 January 2021 13: 23
    +4
    What I agree with the author is that enterprises that are critical for the military-industrial complex (such as Zvezda, etc.) must or must be placed under a strict obligation to fulfill the state order 100% and in priority. Of course, at reasonable prices. Or ... reprivatization and state. state-owned plant!
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 5 January 2021 01: 19
      -2
      Now this execution within the terms of the Ministry of Defense solves claims for disruption of orders.
  • A_Lex
    A_Lex 4 January 2021 13: 24
    +11
    Who could really do this to the IBMK fleet? Only an outstanding leader in the defense industry


    This is not the first time I have seen claims that the root of the problem is the lack of an adequate leader. I think this is a special case of a more general problem. The main problem for Russia is that talented people do not occupy positions in which they could bring the greatest benefit, i.e. efficiency. An outstanding, and therefore talented leader, will primarily be engaged in the selection of adequate personnel for all links of the production chain and setting up a seamless relationship with subcontractors and contractors. Because cadres are everything. Only with this approach, the whole structure will be a single well-coordinated mechanism, the result of which will be an effective organization of the production of a quality product.

    In fact, an adequate leader makes all participants in the chain work for a common cause, and the quality of this work is constantly monitored and controlled for compliance with a certain set of criteria. If there is no such leader, then the production structure is actually privatized, i.e. she is forced to work for herself by people for whom personal benefit and privileges mean much more than any "common cause". While an adequate leader is in place, he gives this sort of people, let's call them conditionally "private traders", gives a turn from the gate, and private traders, of course, shout about "totalitarianism" and "strangulation of freedom", implicitly implying that they are not allowed to use the system in their personal, selfish interests. And without an adequate leader, private traders get carte blanche to row for themselves, as a result of which there are such typical and massive phenomena for the modern Russian Federation, which in the criminal procedural language are called "theft, fraud, embezzlement, forgery", etc.

    Those. without an adequate leader, adherents of the "common cause" do not have a systematic response to the arbitrariness of private traders and they are virtually powerless against private tradersbecause they rely on the system and the law, which the private trader can easily bypass. Some guardians constantly rely on laws, rules, instructions, like a sacred cow, making a typical mistake - they judge others by themselves. Those. they seriously think that if they themselves follow the laws and follow the instructions, then others will do the same. They cannot understand the simple thing that a private trader always does not care about laws and regulations, since his only guiding star is personal gain.

    Other guardians stubbornly beat the alarm, trying to reach the upper levels of the hierarchy. This is also a typical mistake from the cycle "inform the king, he does not know what is happening on the lower floors." They, in turn, do not understand that if the system is a mess, then this in itself is an eloquent characteristic of the "tsar's" managerial talents. Simply put - organizational mess in the system, this is the main criterion for the manager's professional unsuitability.

    This kind of reasoning is usually followed by the conclusion that "we need to wait for a new Stalin," which is fundamentally wrong, since it puts the entire system in direct dependence on a lucky chance, which in turn makes the system meaningless as such.

    The typical Western approach in which the elite as a separate caste is formed from childhood and is cut in institutions like Eton and Harvard is also inapplicable here, because any such elite will always be ideologically oriented towards the West (it has been proved by Russian history over the past 150 years), since the West in racism has always been the standard and set the fashion and trend. And the monarchy is also a bad model, because the king can turn out to be either a fool or a tyrant, which is essentially the same thing.

    In fact, only 1 option remains. The Stalinist system is taken, Stalin is removed from it, and collectives are endowed with the right to both delegate a leader and displace him on the basis of violation of specific criteria that are directly linked to production efficiency. And for any private trader for a relapse, a one-way ticket - sunny Sakhalin - should be ruthlessly issued. Well, or use the Chinese firearms method if you feel sorry for Sakhalin. Private traders, of course, from such a prospect will scream the standard "grimy can't play" well, or whatever Gref said about the people and the government in his time. But only practice as a criterion of truth, says unambiguously - over 30 years of modern Russian history, the closed management system of private traders, which is completely unaccountable, uncontrollable and irresponsible, has led to extremely disappointing results in all areas of activity. It led to disappointing results for society as a whole, and, on the contrary, brought excellent profits and wealth directly to private individuals.

    I think that there are simply no other adequate options, and the inadequacy of all other options is convincingly illustrated by numerous historical examples.
    1. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 4 January 2021 20: 19
      -2
      Quote: A_Lex
      The Stalinist system is taken, Stalin is removed from it, and collectives are endowed with the right to both delegate a leader and dismiss him on the basis of violation of specific criteria that are directly linked to production efficiency.

      history teaches that it does not teach anything ... you started for the health of the "leader of the leader", that is, Stalin. systems, by the way, before Stalin, all this was with the election of leaders, with the export of too strict foremen or engineers from the factory on a wheelbarrow due to the hooting of hard workers, truant pests (in order not to work, they broke machines and got paid downtime) ..... "Now that the global economic crisis is unfolding its destructive effect, sinking entire layers of medium and small capitalists, ruining entire groups of the labor aristocracy and farmers and dooming millions of workers to hunger - everyone asks: where is the cause of the crisis, what is its basis, how to deal with it How to destroy it? A variety of "theories" of the crisis are invented. Whole projects of "mitigation", "prevention", "liquidation" of the crisis are proposed. the authorities, which, it turns out, “did not take all measures” to prevent the crisis. "Democrats" blame "Republicans", "Republicans" - "Democrats", and all together - the Federal Reserve System, which failed to "curb" the crisis.
      It is clear that all these "theories" and projects have nothing to do with science. It must be admitted that the bourgeois economists were completely bankrupt in the face of the crisis. These gentlemen forget that crises cannot be regarded as an accidental phenomenon in the system of capitalist economy. These gentlemen forget that economic crises are the inevitable result of capitalism. These gentlemen forget that crises were born together with the birth of the domination of capitalism. For more than a hundred years, there have been periodic economic crises, recurring every 12-10-8 years and less.
      During this period, bourgeois governments of all ranks and colors, bourgeois leaders of all degrees and abilities - all without exception tried to try their hand at "preventing" and "eliminating" crises. But they all suffered defeat. They were defeated, because it is impossible to prevent or eliminate economic crises while remaining within the framework of capitalism. What's so surprising if today's bourgeois leaders also suffer defeat? What is surprising here if the measures taken by the bourgeois governments are in fact not leading to a softening of the crisis, not to alleviating the situation of the millions of working people, but to new outbursts of bankruptcies, to a new wave of unemployment, to the absorption of less powerful capitalist associations by stronger capitalist associations?
      The basis of economic crises of overproduction, their cause lies in the very system of the capitalist economy. The basis of the crisis lies in the contradiction between the social nature of production and the capitalist form of appropriation of the results of production. An expression of this basic contradiction of capitalism is the contradiction between the colossal growth of the production possibilities of capitalism, calculated to obtain the maximum capitalist profit, and the relative reduction in effective demand on the part of the millions of working people, whose living standards are always trying to keep the capitalists within the extreme minimum .. "http://cprfspb.ru/2881.html
      1. A_Lex
        A_Lex 4 January 2021 20: 47
        +2
        but you were also instilled with a false stereotype about the harm of the leader ... if there is no Stalin, then there will be no Stalinist system


        Your quote about the crisis, which is a natural companion of capitalism, is out of place. This is not a crisis. It's about the quality of a product called "management". The fact that there was control in the Stalinist system and everywhere, including the top, were promoted talents who bore increased responsibility. And now, on the contrary, the higher, the less responsibility, and friends or relatives are promoted.

        In the West, the problem of the managerial stratum has been solved by separating it into a separate caste. In Russia, this model turns into large-scale problems for the country. Leadership is beautiful only as long as the leader is sane, but as soon as a "stupid person" or a scoundrel sits in the leader's chair, a catastrophe occurs. What do you personally want to offer? Judging by the avatar of the monarchy? It was already, passed, ended very badly.
        1. Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 4 January 2021 21: 52
          -3
          Quote: A_Lex
          In the West, the problem of the managerial stratum has been solved by separating it into a separate caste.

          firstly, in the west, this problem has not been resolved, otherwise such world crises as now "as comrade Stalin pointed out" (from the speech of Marshal Zhukov at the 1945 victory parade) would not have happened, and in vain you close your eyes to the problem of crises, disorders, ineffective leaders, it is the problem in the fact that there are people like Stalin who worked day and night for the sake of the people and who have acquired a pair of boots and two tunics, but there are. rogues for the sake of profit humping any business, these are DIFFERENT people. it is to read carefully the quotation and to Stalin and understand that profit and efficiency in large-scale production or government administration are OPPOSITES! ...... And the allocation of management into a separate caste everywhere, in the west and east under the king, Stalin Brezhnev, Putin and the Rothschilds, is not a way to solve crises. it is important who is in this caste and for what purpose, .... profit or prosperity of the common cause?
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 4 January 2021 21: 58
            -2
            In Stalin's words ... while the thieves rule, it will be bad for the plowmen, and if the thieves are imprisoned and the managers of the plowmen are appointed, it will be good for all the plowmen ... without the thieves, it will not be good, and only Stalin can put them in prison w1937 ... the circle is closed
          2. A_Lex
            A_Lex 4 January 2021 22: 34
            +1
            And the separation of management into a separate caste is everywhere ... it is important who is in this caste and for what purpose


            Clear. So they would immediately say that you are drowning for the aristocracy, i.e. ultimately for racism, but you push through this idea, constantly hiding behind the sonorous name of Stalin. The position is not new. If there is a desire to push something negative into the mass consciousness, pretend that the positive had structurally all the same and sell it to the masses, constantly zealously quoting the positive authorities, pretending to respect them very much. In this context, one can safely call the Stalinist People's Commissars "red aristocracy", after which it can be argued that the aristocracy is a healthy and good phenomenon, since it was used by Stalin himself. In general, if you are skillful, then it is not difficult to compost brains.
            1. Vladimir1155
              Vladimir1155 5 January 2021 03: 39
              -3
              Quote: A_Lex
              In general, if you are skillful, then it is not difficult to compost brains

              ..... it's not the truth that's more important to you, but your victory? and labeling an opponent, I'm not interested in this
              1. A_Lex
                A_Lex 5 January 2021 12: 25
                0
                not true, but own victory


                Contradict yourself. Victory belongs to those who have strength. And the source of strength is truth. And judging by what is happening in society, there is no need to talk about the victory of the normal over the monsters. It's good at least that I learned how to quickly identify composting brains already from 2-3 posts. At least some progress.
    2. iouris
      iouris 5 January 2021 12: 28
      -1
      Quote: A_Lex
      the root of the problem is the lack of an adequate leader

      Take a closer look at this place.
      1. A_Lex
        A_Lex 5 January 2021 12: 39
        +1
        Take a closer look at this place.


        What exactly do you want to say?
  • old man
    old man 4 January 2021 15: 17
    -1
    The main thing is to confuse the enemy, weapons are simply being introduced based on new physical principles. Go Russia!!!!
  • makmak
    makmak 4 January 2021 15: 38
    +2
    The barrier is nothing, Positive-M everything! Zaslon wrested corvettes from Positiv-M, therefore: 1. We build corvettes only with Positiv-M. 2. Available corvettes: we cut down the IBMK and put the Positive-M + shell-M. 3. Or we do not build corvettes, but on the basis of Karakut with Positive-M, we are building massively correct corvettes OVR with Positive-M. Or Tsushima ... Well, I understand.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 18: 42
      +3
      Positive works and works well in contrast to. When shaping the forces of the coastal zone, we simply do not have the opportunity to experiment from the word in general. We just ran out of time for red tape. Moreover, the corvette should be very cheap. It is simply stupid to pile up a DEFENSE on a coastal ship carrying 16 medium or long-range missiles at most.
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 5 January 2021 01: 22
        -1
        What kind of ships are massively built on such and load it cost-effectively.
      2. Charik
        Charik 5 January 2021 03: 27
        -1
        No time to swing (khekhe)
  • Alexander2009
    Alexander2009 4 January 2021 16: 32
    0
    If the Ministry of Defense, after almost 4 months, did not answer anything, then this is inaction. You can write to the Presidential Administration again
  • sleeve
    sleeve 4 January 2021 17: 05
    +1
    Shock and Awe. A full-fledged review of the "stocks" and possible prospects of the "stocks" of the Russian Navy. If this article is a cover story, then it's great. If not ... Then something I do not understand is obvious in this life.
    Also performance characteristics. Everything is brought together, analyzed ...
  • Charik
    Charik 4 January 2021 17: 27
    +1
    For some, "the truth hurts", otherwise they are crammed into pr.949-40 Zircons and all-all AUGs are beaten.
    1. Alexander Lysenko
      Alexander Lysenko 4 January 2021 18: 34
      +3
      The sad truth, but good fellows, what a knock !! Respect Timokhin and Klimov!
  • Nestor Vlakhovski
    Nestor Vlakhovski 4 January 2021 19: 06
    -11%
    Who is the author and what does he achieve by swinging the boat ?!
    No, with the chatter about "increasing the defense capability" just the same everything is clear. Interested in a specific goal and personal interest of the author?
    Is this a lobbyist promoting the interests of a company deprived of a state order, is it a hype paper on a scandalous topic, or is it an ordinary fanatic who has been replaced by a causal relationship with prejudices and dogmas?
    1. Charik
      Charik 4 January 2021 19: 32
      +1
      In my unprofessional opinion, a person is in the subject and is dissatisfied with the situation, unlike non-professionals who consider it, and I will win everyone, with one volley of Zircons
      1. Nestor Vlakhovski
        Nestor Vlakhovski 4 January 2021 19: 46
        -5
        person in the subject and unhappy with the situation
        And what else could there be a personal motive? Yes, they did not share the kickback with him, they were kicked out of the service or funding was cut off, that's all the discontent.
        unlike non-professionals who count -And I will win all, with one volley of Zircons
        so the author of this article is himself from the same sect. Not so long ago, I wrote here about the fantastic characteristics of the miracle missiles that no one saw in their eyes.
        1. timokhin-aa
          5 January 2021 00: 07
          +2
          And what else could there be a personal motive? Yes, they did not share the kickback with him, they were kicked out of the service or funding was cut off, that's all the discontent.


          Why judge people by themselves?
    2. Charik
      Charik 4 January 2021 19: 35
      -7
      Who is the author in general and what does he achieve by rocking the boat ?!
      1. Intruder
        Intruder 4 January 2021 20: 31
        +1
        It's just that the author in the article has collected a combined "hodgepodge" of problems with the prospects for the Navy, I think that after * ts years, we will also get only in profile ... :)
    3. The comment was deleted.
    4. A_Lex
      A_Lex 4 January 2021 21: 05
      +3
      Interested in a specific goal and personal interest author? or is it ordinary fanaticto which prejudice and dogma have replaced causation?


      Typical.

      The private trader thinks very simply: "The main thing for me is my personal benefit and preferably more, for which all means are good." Accordingly, with such a statement of the question, you can violate the law, rules, instructions, give bribes, kickbacks, blackmail, threaten. All in order to knock out privileges from the system for a loved one. Therefore, if someone does not act in the same way, the private trader, who also judges by himself, cannot understand what is his personal interest in the actions of another. And not finding personal interest, the private trader labels the other as a "fanatic". A fanatic for a private trader is one who acts according to the rules, according to the law for the sake of a "common cause". The private trader naturally marks such a person as a psycho. Well, simply because from the point of view of a private trader, the only reasonable goal of any activity is maximum personal profit. And the one who acts differently is sick in the head.

      There are 2 different worldviews - a guardian for a "common cause" that will ultimately benefit everyone, and carry everything that can be taken to your cozy country cottage - and both of these worldviews sincerely do not understand each other.
      1. Nestor Vlakhovski
        Nestor Vlakhovski 4 January 2021 21: 43
        -2
        "the main thing for me is my personal benefit and preferably more, for which all means are good"
        The reasoning of the butterfly is one-day, with such an approach it is simply impossible to build a successful dklo. Where are the guarantees of security and a prosperous future, where is the reputation, where is the investment?
        you can break the law, rules, instructions, give bribes, kickbacks, blackmail, threaten
        This is the nature of man, which no one has yet managed to change. The smart ones fight for the advantage, the dumb ones flounder at the bottom.
        All in order to knock out privileges from the system for a loved one.
        and people around will not react in any way to your "knocking out"? Absurd.
        finding no personal interest, the private trader labels the other as a "fanatic".
        how else to call a person with irrational obsessive manias ?!
        by law for the sake of the "common cause"
        there is no "common cause" between the subject and the subject.
        the only reasonable goal of any activity is maximum personal gain.

        "Profit" is exactly the same tool, not a goal. The desire for more is inherent in any living organism, not only in evil "private traders"
        1. A_Lex
          A_Lex 4 January 2021 22: 49
          +3
          One-day butterfly reasoning ... stupid ... irrational obsessive delusions ... between subject and subject


          The typical view of a liberal, i.e. private owner. The subject was especially pleased with the project. The liberal is, of course, the subject, the others are the exploited object. Accordingly, for a liberal there are no "common affairs" and cannot be, because the most important work of life for him is himself, like the navel of the earth and the center of the universe.

          Such is the nature of man ... people around will not react in any way ... is inherent in any living organism


          And the explanation in a typical style - "it's not me, it's all like that, and since everyone is like that, then I can." Very comfortable position. At first, he himself accused everyone en masse, after which, on the same basis, he wrote out an indulgence to his beloved.

          "Profit" is exactly the same tool, not a goal.


          But this is true. Profit is really just a tool, while the ultimate goal is control. In principle, the goal is the same as the intention of the predator in relation to their hunting grounds. Hence the steam locomotive and everything else - and "man is an animal", and "the world of the jungle", and Atlas squared his shoulders. The philosophical justification of the goal, as well as the legislative form, is always of a secondary, service nature.
    5. timokhin-aa
      5 January 2021 00: 10
      +10
      No, with the chatter about "increasing the defense capability" just the same everything is clear. Interested in a specific goal and personal interest of the author?


      Did it ever occur to you that normal, full-fledged people have a motive to increase their defenses?
      Not everyone was born with the soul of a worm.
      Although I admit that those who were born with her can really motivate normal people and not understand ...
    6. Glaaki
      Glaaki 10 January 2021 12: 15
      +1
      achieves by swinging the boat ?!

      Tsyts, lakhtobootische, do not be so torn.
  • Polente the Wanderer
    Polente the Wanderer 4 January 2021 19: 39
    0
    "" In some respects, our proposal was better, in others - the proposal
    "Barrier". This is a debatable question. But this is a system based on AFAR (active
    phased array antenna - "NP") is very expensive. So the price of 3 billion rubles for
    the set is adequate ", - the design bureau of NPP" Salyut "reported to" NP "." - "Novy Prospekt" is an independent business publication. Maybe the NPP "Salyut" did not say anything to this publication, but the competition was apparently between JSC MORINFORMSISTEMA-AGAT ”(Positive-M, Salyut-one of the enterprises) and the STC“ Zaslon ”company. arguments that they were wrapped for some other reason, and not because their products in this competition did not suit the customer (MO).
    1. makmak
      makmak 4 January 2021 21: 59
      0
      Thank you, so there was a competition.
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 16 January 2021 03: 14
        +1
        Quote: makmak
        Thank you, so there was a competition.

        did not have
    2. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 5 January 2021 03: 49
      0
      Quote: Wanderer Polente
      If the JSC "CONCERN MORINFORMSISTEMA-AGAT" (and this is not a one-day company) did not apply directly to the Supreme Commander-in-Chief, then they did not find arguments that they were turned off for some other reason, and not because their products did not suit in this competition customer (MO).

      but you didn't think that the results of the competition were so blatantly and openly falsified ... and the AGAT concern just realized that it is useless to complain, they also have children, and they still have to work with this MO staff, and not with the ideal one.
    3. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 January 2021 03: 16
      -1
      Quote: Wanderer Polente
      "" In some respects, our proposal was better, in others - the proposal
      "Barrier". This is a debatable question.

      what nafig "debatable" - if one firm with vast experience in RL, and the other in general has NEVER developed ANYTHING on this subject?
  • nobody75
    nobody75 4 January 2021 20: 02
    +3
    However, the most serious problem turned out to be the "rediscovery" (and which was well known since the early 80s), that the decimeter range has serious problems when working on targets at extremely low altitudes (in the "drive layer" ).
    Solvable problems (the same "Aegis", with its 10 cm, flying over the very waves of the PRK "Exocet" sees well, but this requires large energy and hardware costs).

    Dear Author, Since the 80s of the last century, there has been a revolution in the field of signal processing. Because of the algorithms of the fast Fourier transform, it became possible not only to "see" the missiles in rough seas, as an uneven underlying surface (more than this, the Rayleigh criterion interfered with this), but also to issue target designations for them.
    I will tell you more - WITHOUT THIS SMART MAST CORVETTE IS NOT NECESSARY !!! FROM THE WORD AT ALL !!![i] [/ i]
    How is the detection and capture for tracking of a low-flying high-speed target over the sea in modern CIUS? During scanning with a "clear horizon", a neural network that is sensitive to outliers is continuously trained. When missiles appear, the classifier "throws" them into a separate class and ties them up.
    These same corvettes without a mast complex with AFAR will not be able to work as patrol boats! So why are they needed? To shove an old shovel station on them? Will you integrate it with bius? Why was it necessary to buy mistrals then?
    Sincerely
    1. Intruder
      Intruder 4 January 2021 20: 37
      +1
      Why was it necessary to buy mistrals then?
      Duc, we did not give the Mistrals in the past, it is not harmful to want, but to buy and take away already, alas !? :)
      a neural network that is sensitive to emissions is trained.
      more precisely, to the accumulation of input parameters, if we talk about: "pure radio horizon" !? :) but not always neuroalgorithms, so successfully "learn the sample", worked on the weather radar with Alterka, so there were constantly problems with determining the fields of solid precipitation in winter, at maximum range by the way, although for a long time it was already maybe already decided now, all the "shoals", hmm, hmm .. :)
      1. nobody75
        nobody75 4 January 2021 20: 42
        +1
        Duc, we did not give the Mistrals in the past

        And I didn't need them ... Only bius, and she was ... "communed".
        but not always neuroalgorithms, so successfully "the sample is taught"

        It depends on which neural network to use and how to train ... Personally, neural networks have let me down only once in my life - when I worked at Sirius. By some miracle, the bosses guessed that I was not doing what I should be doing ... I still don't understand where I got it ...
        Sincerely
        1. Intruder
          Intruder 4 January 2021 20: 47
          +3
          Personally, neural networks have let me down only once in my life - when I worked at Sirius. By some miracle, the bosses guessed that I was not doing what I should be doing ... I still don't understand where I got it ...
          Sometimes it happens like that :), I tormented my project for a long time, back in 2006, when upgrading the MRL-5 system in Siberia, so I remember that many permanent smut, at the maximum range with solid particles of precipitation ...
          Best regards, colleague :)))
          1. nobody75
            nobody75 4 January 2021 20: 50
            +2
            Thank you! Personally, from the article, I did not understand how the author imagines the organization of a radar patrol using a group of corvettes without system integration of communication systems and radar in a single complex ... Have you figured it out?
            Sincerely
            1. Intruder
              Intruder 4 January 2021 20: 57
              +1
              Not at all :) Honestly for me, this secret is great !!! :) Well, maybe flags with program control instead of a signalman, as promising and secure communications, via optical channels ??? :)))
              1. nobody75
                nobody75 4 January 2021 21: 02
                +1
                Then, taking into account the data transfer rate in the "flag" point-to-point channel, I will need unknown codes for compressing streaming data from the radar ... And Galois rings that allow me to correct the errors of a drunk signalman are not known to me ...
                Sincerely
                1. Intruder
                  Intruder 4 January 2021 21: 22
                  +3
                  Yes, and Galois rings that allow me to correct the errors of a drunk signalman are not known to me ...
                  this is the problem, which is not known to me either, and I don’t think that anyone else except you and me knows this !!! , ".. either the crocodile is not caught, or the coconuts are not the ones they have", maybe ... of course this is just an assumption and purely personal ... !!!
                  Sincerely,
                  1. nobody75
                    nobody75 4 January 2021 21: 38
                    +1
                    Even if we take the PLO task, then without streaming data between the corvette and the lone helicopter searching for the PL, the corvette will not be able to use the PLUR. And the corvette itself, in terms of its displacement and volume, will not be able to provide either a decent air group or the use of drones capable of monitoring the fields of the RSL. And I think that using them is the best way to deal with submarines in the near sea zone.
                    Sincerely
                    1. Intruder
                      Intruder 5 January 2021 00: 19
                      +1
                      Well, ... from the GAS, the bearing and the distance to the submarine are transferred to the PUSB system, which develops the horizontal and vertical guidance angles of the RBU, then again we come across the need for a GAS, corvettes without it generally lose their meaning, UAVs can be used from almost any "barge" launch (all sorts of frigates and UDC), but there are already problems with the GAS ...
                      Best regards,
                    2. Cyril G ...
                      Cyril G ... 5 January 2021 08: 38
                      +1
                      Link-16 is enough for the Americans. There, the channel has a bandwidth of 326 kilobytes / sec. All this is realizable.
                      1. nobody75
                        nobody75 5 January 2021 11: 05
                        +3
                        326 is with encryption and error correction included. T n guaranteed speed. In practice, it comes to megabits. The question is not about the protocol, but about the bus and the corresponding open architecture. The author proposes to take the old Soviet stations and turn the warship into a "hodgepodge".
                        Sincerely
                      2. Cyril G ...
                        Cyril G ... 5 January 2021 11: 06
                        0
                        Stop you actually about what old Soviet stations?
                      3. nobody75
                        nobody75 5 January 2021 18: 55
                        +1
                        Taking into account the strict funding constraints and construction timeframes, the only possibility for this is to replace the extremely expensive Zaslon IBMK radar complex (RLC) with the used and effective products Pozitiv-M, Monument (or Monolit), and Puma.

                        Sincerely
                      4. Cyril G ...
                        Cyril G ... 6 January 2021 10: 25
                        +1
                        All the products mentioned are fresh and are quite successfully put on the ships of projects 21631, 22800, 20380
                      5. nobody75
                        nobody75 6 January 2021 11: 30
                        0
                        What is their success? Have you seen how this whole "farm" is interfaced? SmartMast is offered instead
                        Sincerely
                      6. Cyril G ...
                        Cyril G ... 6 January 2021 12: 19
                        +1
                        Quote: nobody75
                        SmartMast is offered instead

                        Firstly, to begin with, why, instead of a cycle of tests and debugging on a floating stand, was it immediately screwed onto a warship? But if Polyment was thought about for a very long time and on the whole it was correct, the first time I found out about him in the 4th year in 1994, then in the part concerning the Barrier, why is the stage of finishing afloat still excluded? We already danced on a rake and danced great !!! Secondly, 6 billion 300 million for a radar for a corvette is incredibly expensive.

                        Have you seen how this whole "farm" is interfaced?

                        I came across the Positive for a very long time. I just don't see the point yet, at least in screwing the Barrier onto the corvette. We need a lot of corvettes. And there is a very effective version of the mast. from project 22800 - it includes Monument + Positive + Sots Armor + TK-23 ...

                        By the way, this is an incorrect scheme in terms of RES ...
                      7. nobody75
                        nobody75 6 January 2021 13: 17
                        +1
                        Unfortunately, a corvette is a minimal platform on the basis of which the Zaslon can be brought to mind ... The point is to transmit streaming telemetry between the corvettes of the radar patrol through a single mast complex. This will create a "virtual radar" with a large parallax, as in astrophysicists and meteorologists. From different angles, the EPRs are different, so a group of corvettes will be able to issue a KUG, which it includes the CU.
                        As for the use of corvettes for PLO missions, I'm sorry, but I don't believe in it.
                        With a low-noise course of a submarine of 5-6 knots, the IPC could still depict something, but at a low-noise speed of Virginias of 20 knots, it is useless. The boat will simply break contact with him having a more powerful HAK and a speed that does not depend on the weather and rough seas.
                        Sincerely
                      8. georg 2
                        georg 2 11 January 2021 02: 46
                        -2
                        As for the use of corvettes for PLO missions, I'm sorry, but I don't believe in it.
                        With a low-noise course of a submarine of 5-6 knots, the IPC could still depict something, but at a low-noise speed of Virginias of 20 knots, it is useless. The boat will simply break contact with him having a more powerful HAK and a speed that does not depend on the weather and rough seas.

                        To effectively solve the problems of searching for and detecting submarines, it is necessary to use together the ships of the submarine and the aircraft of the UUV. The plane does not care how fast the submarine moves under water. True, for this it is necessary to pay attention to the capabilities of the UAV aircraft to effectively search for submarines underwater. The most effective way is to use RGAB. True, today our BPA aircraft, to put it mildly, are not very ready for this. The capabilities of modern PPP BPA are not reduced to the search for submarines, but to clarify their location. Our counterparts, fortunately, also have the same problem. They fly to fly, but in terms of detection they have not gone far from us. Or we are from them. And this is our consolation. But this state of affairs in this matter is not encouraging and it needs to be changed, at least for us. There are opportunities for this, it would be the desire of those interested.
                      9. nobody75
                        nobody75 11 January 2021 10: 17
                        -1
                        There are opportunities for this, it would be the desire of those interested.

                        I'm not sure about the possibilities to increase the strength of the basic patrol aircraft. We can produce airplanes and RSL, but there are problems with the crews ... Before the pandemic, by hook or by crook, civilian airlines lured away military pilots by offering bonuses and retraining programs:
                        The devil pulled me to go to Kacha.
                        Here Ulyanovsk - everything is different.
                        There would be a house, a car, a summer residence.
                        And I would drive "Watermelon"

                        Therefore, I believe that for the tasks of the plane, it is necessary to design specialized naval UAVs capable of broadcasting RSL data and using small-sized torpedoes.
                        Sincerely
                      10. georg 2
                        georg 2 11 January 2021 21: 55
                        0
                        Therefore, I believe that for the tasks of the plane, it is necessary to design specialized naval UAVs capable of broadcasting RSL data and using small-sized torpedoes.

                        You think, in general, right. I think that advanced technologies will move in this direction. In fact, there are no other alternatives. But this is our happy tomorrow and we must live to see it. And you have to live today. And PL search systems are needed today. So for now, this issue cannot be dispensed with without BPA aircraft.
                      11. nobody75
                        nobody75 11 January 2021 22: 09
                        +1
                        Unfortunately, this UAV is needed today, because yesterday, figuratively speaking, money was collected from cadets of civil schools for kerosene if they wanted to fly ...
                        Sincerely
                  2. Fizik M
                    Fizik M 16 January 2021 03: 11
                    0
                    Quote: georg 2
                    Our counterparts, fortunately, also have the same problem. They fly to fly, but in terms of detection they have not gone far from us. Or we are from them. And it serves us as a consolation

                    Bukovsky, YOU are incompetent from the word ABSOLUTELY
                  3. georg 2
                    georg 2 12 February 2021 00: 35
                    -1
                    Bukovsky, YOU are incompetent from the word ABSOLUTELY

                    Can you provide evidence? Or are you following the path of our "sworn" comrades, who claim that we are poisoning the Skripals, Navalny and other honest and noble Westerners with chemical weapons? It is you who will tell the sofa experts about their competence, and I am talking about what I understand. I don’t argue with you on mine and torpedo issues, there’s no need.
                  4. 2534M
                    2534M 12 February 2021 10: 12
                    -2
                    Quote: georg 2
                    Can you provide evidence?

                    given many times
                    acc. articles

                    only in YOUR case it is "not for a horse feed" (confirmation of which is and how many times YOU on this topic "a stake on the head" and on the RPF)
                    Quote: georg 2
                    Are you following the path of our "sworn" comrades who claim that we are poisoning Skripals, Navalny and other honest and noble Westerners with chemical weapons?

                    TO PSYCHIATRIC
                    Quote: georg 2
                    and I'm talking about what I'm good at

                    YOU HAVE BEEN PUBLICALLY WATERED BY YOUR SPECIALTY, incl. and on RPF (and not only me)
                    YOU ARE A LIAR and A FALSIFIER, yes, I'm talking about again broken wires "Ritsa", who despite this "continued to scribble targets" belay
                  5. georg 2
                    georg 2 12 February 2021 12: 26
                    -1
                    I'm not going to sink to your bastard rudeness, I like to spit on the monitor, for God's sake. Only do not stain the chair under you from the strain. And according to "Ritsa" whoever wants, can read everything, since this infa is on the net. Especially for the dumb-headed I explain once again, "Ritsa", this is history and it is not for you to judge and comment on it in this way. You will grow to its level, not grow. There were plenty of opponents and detractors of her even without you and of higher rank and authority. However, everything that was implemented there is ultimately used to one degree or another in modern SACs, and not only in ours, and digitalization of input. signal, and spectral representation in. signal, and analysis of the DS, and the formation of matched filters, and attempts to compile on this basis a dictionary of features for classification. True, this was a hitch. There are attempts, there is no attribute space. And it won't. They're not going that way. Who are you, torpedo-miner? So mine, torpedo and do not climb where you don’t understand, you are our submariner, the most submariner of all submariners. An interesting movie turns out, everyone is fools around, everyone needs a psychiatrist and only one Maxim Klimov is an impeccable creation. He climbed onto an armored car, clutched his cap in his fist and broadcasts how he plowed the vastness of the "Bolshoi Theater" in a submarine. You have to be more modest, dear comrade. Although who am I telling this.
                  6. 2534M
                    2534M 12 February 2021 12: 57
                    -1
                    Quote: georg 2
                    I'm not going to stoop to your bullshit rudeness, I like to spit saliva on the monitor

                    monsieur, cattle rudeness and drooling on the monitor - it's YOURS, - on the same RPF (I read the comments and screened it)
                    YOU are only capable of crap behind your back, being unable to answer even for your words
                    Quote: georg 2
                    And according to "Ritsa" whoever wants, can read everything, since this infa is on the net.

                    yeah, - incl. my spanking of your murzilian stories lol
                    Quote: georg 2
                    I explain again, "Ritsa", this is history and it is not for you to judge and comment on it in this way.

                    YOU didn’t have an explanation
                    but the head of the service of the RTS of the Navy (who invited me to participate in writing the TTZ for the Imandra (the last Ritsu)), for some reason, had a completely different opinion
                    Quote: georg 2
                    You will grow to its level, not grow.

                    YOU monsieur wassat wave your tongue less, or inadvertently squeeze lol
                    Quote: georg 2
                    However, everything that was implemented there is ultimately used to one degree or another in modern SACs.

                    fool
                    ooo how YOU sang? and yet "yesterday" YOU DENIED it!
                    Quote: georg 2
                    True, this was a hitch. There are attempts, the attribute space is not

                    IS
                    unlike SCAM with "Ritsa"
                    Quote: georg 2
                    And it won't. They're not going that way.

                    fool
                    hmm ... doctors won't help YOU anymore ...
                    Quote: georg 2
                    torpedo and do not climb where you don’t understand

                    Monsieur, YOU were a hydroacoustician only "the grace of the money sheet", in fact, doing cheating and lying
                  7. georg 2
                    georg 2 13 February 2021 19: 30
                    0
                    The beginning of the service of the RTS of the Navy (who invited me to participate in writing the TTZ for "Imandra" (the last "Ritsu"))

                    Well, how, they wrote, pisuny? Are you all the masters to write what they did in hardware?
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 16 January 2021 03: 13
    0
    Quote: nobody75
    Even if we take the PLO task, then without streaming data between the corvette and the lone helicopter searching for the PL, the corvette will not be able to use the PLUR.

    don't bullshit hurt her
    even the analog line of the Soviet Dozor coped with this successfully
  • Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 20: 57
    +2
    Corvettes are needed primarily as carriers of the SAC with GPBA and PLO weapons, the rest should be on a leftover basis. And you need a LOT of them. 50 pieces approx
    1. nobody75
      nobody75 4 January 2021 21: 06
      +1
      And, excuse me, modern corvettes have enough displacement for a decent GAK, or do you mean towed? And the speed to drive the submarine, especially when the sea is roughly 5-6 balls?
      Sincerely
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 21: 28
        +3
        At least 1000 tons are needed for the Minotaur. And to drive the PLA is the second time. The main task of the OVR forces is to provide cover for the deployment of the OBK, KAG, DESO and submarine forces.
        1. nobody75
          nobody75 4 January 2021 21: 41
          +2
          I agree. Just how to provide cover with only one helicopter? And how can a helicopter be used in combat conditions without this smart mast?
          Sincerely
          1. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 21: 49
            +2
            A "smart mast" is simply pointless for a corvette. We have never matured into mixed permanent tactical groups. In this case, the stability and combat effectiveness of the tactical group of the PLC must be ensured by a frigate with normal ammunition and adequate SUV
            1. nobody75
              nobody75 4 January 2021 21: 53
              0
              We have never matured into mixed permanent tactical groups.

              Therefore, it was not yet ripe that the tactical group should form a single information space and exchange information about the underwater, surface and air situation. Why include in the group a ship that is not capable of this (and without a smart mast - in any way)?
              Sincerely
              1. Cyril G ...
                Cyril G ... 4 January 2021 22: 19
                0
                "Smart mast" must be in quotes ....
                You need to understand the main thing in corvettes is that it is primarily an anti-submarine ship, the rest is secondary.
              2. timokhin-aa
                5 January 2021 00: 02
                0
                Why include in the group a ship that is not capable of this (and without a smart mast - in any way)?


                And nothing that VZOI works on old corvettes? What will you do with this?
                1. nobody75
                  nobody75 5 January 2021 11: 07
                  +2
                  "Old corvettes" - sorry what? There was no such class in the USSR ...
                  Sincerely
                  1. timokhin-aa
                    5 January 2021 11: 55
                    0
                    With the previous composition of the REV.
                    Project 20380, ships "Guarding", "Savvy", "Boyky", "Steady", "Perfect", "Loud". They have no towers from the "Barrier";
                    So your words are at variance with reality here.
                    1. nobody75
                      nobody75 5 January 2021 15: 19
                      +1
                      Oh, they are already old ... And you do not know the difference between the IZOI and the tactical system of the US Navy ... However, do what you want:
                      1 Push, by hook or by crook, undercut with container weapons
                      2 Enter into a contract with the container manufacturer for a full service life cycle, with the obligatory content of a "container team".
                      3 Lease containers together with the team to fleets for the duration of the exercises and transport them between naval bases using VTA or railway
                      4 Recruit crews of "nedokorvetov" from "universal sailors" from the civilian using the site "Jobings" ... And when the contract ends - "fuck"
                      All around there are pluses! No need to equip a naval base. Mass train specialists. Pay military pensions ... Yes, and you can vend the caste system! The "elite" will consist of "castillo" - hereditary naval officers. Specialists - serfs from the factory, assigned to the container. Sailors - from civilian sailors on a contract. A little bit of a state of emergency - ends in the water ... Castillo will not be indignant - they will lose the feeders. Specialists - warm places at factories, and no one will listen to the sailor ...
                      Do not forget to rename the head container corvette to "Fukuyama"!
                      Sincerely
  • The eye of the crying
    The eye of the crying 4 January 2021 23: 35
    0
    Quote: nobody75
    During scanning with a "clear horizon", the outlier-sensitive neural network is continuously trained. When missiles appear, the classifier "throws" them into a separate class and ties the tracks.


    This is anti-science fiction.
    1. nobody75
      nobody75 5 January 2021 08: 19
      -1
      Today is 15.01.2021/XNUMX/XNUMX ... And what is your millennium in the yard?
      Sincerely
      1. The eye of the crying
        The eye of the crying 5 January 2021 10: 20
        +1
        Quote: nobody75
        Today 15.01.2021/XNUMX/XNUMX ...


        This explains something.
        1. nobody75
          nobody75 5 January 2021 11: 01
          +1
          Glad for you ... Can you write anything on this topic? about all sorts of filters and their construction in real time without neural networks?
          Sincerely
          1. The eye of the crying
            The eye of the crying 5 January 2021 11: 07
            0
            I can say that no one will engage in training neural networks in regular work. The words "building filters in real time" only sound clever in your imagination. But in reality - like "today 15.01.2021/XNUMX/XNUMX".
            1. nobody75
              nobody75 5 January 2021 11: 10
              +1
              I can say that no one will engage in training neural networks in regular work.

              Surely no one will? Is Aegis a figment of my imagination?
              Sincerely
              1. The eye of the crying
                The eye of the crying 5 January 2021 11: 16
                +1
                It definitely won't.
                1. nobody75
                  nobody75 5 January 2021 17: 24
                  +1
                  Any argumentation to follow?
                  Sincerely
                  1. The eye of the crying
                    The eye of the crying 5 January 2021 18: 59
                    0
                    I will not try to convince you of anything. It is enough for me that those who manage to read this sub-branch will know about the existence of the opposite opinion.
                    1. nobody75
                      nobody75 5 January 2021 19: 02
                      -1
                      And is anti-Russian opinion expensive? Why is opium for the people? It is possible to trade an information drug without Fourier series and integrals ... As I understand you !!!
                      Sincerely
                    2. The eye of the crying
                      The eye of the crying 5 January 2021 19: 03
                      +1
                      Don't confuse Fourier transform with neural networks.
                    3. nobody75
                      nobody75 5 January 2021 19: 05
                      -1
                      Do you know other methods of classifying signals in real time besides neural networks?
                      Sincerely
                    4. The eye of the crying
                      The eye of the crying 5 January 2021 19: 12
                      0
                      "Signal classifications"? Goals are classified. And yes, they are classified without neural networks.

                      By the way, you are neatly disengaging from "building filters in real time". And it is possible to use neural networks to classify goals (although there is not much sense).
                    5. nobody75
                      nobody75 5 January 2021 19: 58
                      -1
                      It is neural networks that are used to analyze the reflected signal. You see, absolute calm at sea is a rare phenomenon and the signal reflected from the waves interferes with the detection of a rocket 10-15 m above the surface. Therefore, you need to use a filter that allows you to build a neural network. So it is the signal that needs to be classified, not the targets ...
                      Sincerely
                    6. The eye of the crying
                      The eye of the crying 5 January 2021 20: 08
                      -1
                      The radar does not need to classify the signals - it emits them and knows what the echo looks like. But it's good that you stopped talking about "building filters in real time".
                    7. nobody75
                      nobody75 5 January 2021 20: 11
                      -1
                      But it's good that you stopped talking about "building filters in real time"

                      Excuse me, did you graduate from school? What is FFT?
                      About the "knowledgeable" radar - no comment ...
                      Sincerely
                    8. The eye of the crying
                      The eye of the crying 5 January 2021 20: 13
                      -1
                      Quote: nobody75
                      Excuse me, did you graduate from school?


                      And you?

                      Quote: nobody75
                      What is FFT?


                      This is the FFT on which the filters are built. Without the use of neural networks and not in real life.
                    9. nobody75
                      nobody75 5 January 2021 20: 16
                      -1
                      This is the FFT on which the filters are built

                      And the first letter F, why is it? And what will we filter without a neural network?
                      No, you obviously haven't finished school ...
                      Sincerely
                    10. The eye of the crying
                      The eye of the crying 5 January 2021 20: 26
                      +1
                      Quote: nobody75
                      And the first letter F, why is it?


                      Getting it started ... the first F is Fast. And FFT is Fast Fourier Transform.

                      Quote: nobody75
                      And what will we filter without a neural network?


                      Signal. If you didn't know it, you can filter it without a neural network.
                    11. nobody75
                      nobody75 5 January 2021 20: 27
                      -2
                      Signal

                      One?
                      Sincerely
                    12. The eye of the crying
                      The eye of the crying 5 January 2021 23: 08
                      -2
                      Filters are applied to the signal received from the air (with ADC). Of course, this signal can be a superposition of different signals, but we are only interested in the echo from the probing signal, which is allocated during DSP.
                    13. nobody75
                      nobody75 6 January 2021 09: 33
                      -1
                      So, the signal of the parcel is reflected about waves, the height of which in a small storm is about 1 - 10 dm. The reflected signal results from the interference of the reflected signals from the waves and from the rocket. We need to clip waveforms. For this, we need a neural network trained in real time - with the current weather and a clear horizon.
                      Sincerely
                    14. Hexenmeister
                      Hexenmeister 6 January 2021 10: 09
                      -1
                      It has long been learned to do this by using the "correct" signal with the "correct" parameters and without any networks and intellects.
                    15. nobody75
                      nobody75 6 January 2021 11: 35
                      +1
                      Have you heard about stealth anti-ship missiles? They are just designed to be sent with the correct frequency packet. And in the decimeter range your cunning package will not work - the laws of physics cannot be circumvented ... Only in cm and mm, and there is absorption due to the high humidity of the drive layer.
                      with respect
                    16. Hexenmeister
                      Hexenmeister 6 January 2021 13: 54
                      -2
                      Have you heard anything about fighter radars since the so-called fourth generation? They perfectly detect targets against the background of the underlying surface, even when the main beam of the DN is resting on the ground, and operate in a three-centimeter range with an amazing detection range, although for some reason some consider this range to be very sensitive to meteorological precipitation, and they work without any neural networks and intelligence. And if we compare them in terms of emitted power, dimensions and weight, in relation to the detection range, then everything else can be attributed to the category of super low-effective monsters, but with neural networks wink
                2. The eye of the crying
                  The eye of the crying 6 January 2021 19: 12
                  -1
                  A neural network is not necessary for this. Moreover, it is not necessary to encapsulate it in real time.
                3. nobody75
                  nobody75 6 January 2021 19: 17
                  +1
                  Suggest another way to "trim" the signal from the underlying surface with random irregularities ...
                  Sincerely
                4. The eye of the crying
                  The eye of the crying 6 January 2021 19: 23
                  -1
                  I do not design radars (neither do you, by the way). But the usual method today is the Doppler echo shift.
                5. nobody75
                  nobody75 6 January 2021 19: 37
                  +1
                  The Doppler effect won't help you much
                  1 The signal reflected from the missile will undergo multiple reflections from sea waves - as a result, you will receive several false targets with Doppler frequency shift and only phase information can help you.
                  2 A rocket at a subsonic speed can perform maneuvers, in particular a "snake", in this case its radial speed in the spherical coordinates of the radar at the time of scanning can differ little from the speed of the waves.
                  Developers of subsonic anti-ship missiles are not completely fools.
                  Sincerely
                6. The eye of the crying
                  The eye of the crying 6 January 2021 19: 43
                  -1
                  Quote: nobody75
                  The signal reflected from the rocket will undergo multiple reflections from the sea waves - as a result, you will receive several false targets with Doppler frequency shift


                  Do you understand that with each re-reflection, the signal is attenuated by orders of magnitude?

                  By the way, you mentioned Aegis in the context of using neural networks when detecting RCC. Do you have a link to this article about Aegis?
                7. nobody75
                  nobody75 6 January 2021 19: 46
                  +1
                  There is a link - I will exchange it for the correct calculation of "weakening by orders"
                  Sincerely
                8. The eye of the crying
                  The eye of the crying 6 January 2021 19: 47
                  0
                  You have nothing. And to calculate the attenuation, use the basic radar formula.
                9. nobody75
                  nobody75 6 January 2021 19: 48
                  +1
                  Think what you want, but you yourself do not know how to use this formula?
                  Sincerely
                10. nobody75
                  nobody75 6 January 2021 19: 54
                  +1
                  I'm just eager to see how you can calculate the attenuation of the reflected signal in multiple reflections through the basic radar equation! Your school vacations are prolonged ...
          2. Hexenmeister
            Hexenmeister 6 January 2021 21: 06
            -1
            Before writing about re-reflection, take a strip model of the Earth, a target at a distance of 20 km and a height of 5 m, and calculate how much the range will change with re-reflection, the number of these meters will answer all questions. Any CD needs to hit the target, and not write out the figures in line of sight at the target, and even with a change in the velocity vector by 90 degrees to the line of sight. This will only increase the flight time, make it possible to use weapons on the CD more times, and a short-term stay near the "blind" speeds will not do anything, and for modern systems it is not particularly scary.
          3. nobody75
            nobody75 7 January 2021 00: 21
            0
            You will be surprised that modern subsonic rockets are exactly what the Peruets write out. However, for you, rain and snow and fog are unexplored phenomena. Otherwise, you wouldn't be writing about the centimeter range. In your magical world, elves on fighters detect low-flying anti-ship missiles through thunderclouds. AWACS planes and guidance stations are not needed, and only Mr. Timokhin is Nuzhin - a luminary of all sciences and an agent of all intelligence services.
            Sincerely
          4. Hexenmeister
            Hexenmeister 7 January 2021 10: 12
            -1
            If you do not know anything other than non-coherent impulse radars, in which every drop of water was illuminated on the screen, and the underlying surface was generally an insurmountable problem, then there is nothing to talk about radar. And again, for your information, the detection range of modern fighter radars is comparable to the detection range of AWACS aircraft, and they work in the three centimeter range, that ours, that the Americans, and the underlying surface and clouds do not interfere with them, only the type of radar they have is different. And Radilocation is a science about signals, not about neural networks, there will be a correct signal, and you will receive everything that is required from the radar.
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 16 January 2021 03: 14
    -1
    Quote: nobody75
    I will tell you more - WITHOUT THIS SMART MAST CORVETTE IS NOT NECESSARY !!! FROM THE WORD AT ALL !!! [i] [/ i]
    How is the detection and capture for tracking of a low-flying high-speed target over the sea in modern CIUS? During scanning with a "clear horizon", the outlier-sensitive neural network is continuously trained.

    and I will tell you SIMPLY - YOU CARRY AHINA
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 16 January 2021 03: 42
    0
    Quote: nobody75
    I will tell you more - WITHOUT THIS SMART MAST CORVETTE IS NOT NECESSARY !!! FROM THE WORD AT ALL !!! [i] [/ i]
    How is the detection and capture for tracking of a low-flying high-speed target over the sea in modern CIUS? During scanning with a "clear horizon", a neural network that is sensitive to outliers is continuously trained

    fool
    NONSENSE
  • Maks winter
    Maks winter 4 January 2021 20: 21
    +1
    good article, just ... people will think about it, who is responsible for such a mess? No.
  • Intruder
    Intruder 4 January 2021 20: 29
    +1
    I alone noticed the following epic points of problems with corvettes in this article?
    :
    1.
    that the declared stationary (effective) GAS did not exist then, and is not present now. And it will not be in the medium term.
    ... but from where they come from, from the ceiling it is not solved in a quick and easy way with your fingers :)

    2.
    Apparently, the developers of the "golden tower" of "Zaslon" were slightly unaware that their electronic suppression equipment and AWACS radar ("Hokaya") operate in different frequency ranges? And, accordingly, they have a deliberately zero efficiency for its radar?
    , again, overlooked or, all around hidden sabotage ... ???

    3.
    Zaslon JSC? It's not even funny. When a person is appointed as the managing director of an organization that has taken on the development of the "super radar of the XNUMXst century" (and had previously developed only air conditioners), who left behind another large defense industry enterprise "near death", the result can only be disgrace (which DIMK negligently and posted from the shooting of "Thundering").
    ... well, it happens when people are not enough for a given position :)

    4.
    and constructive errors in placement (for example, "blind sector" aft due to shading by the mast).
    , such as effective managers and project developers did not know about this ...

    5.
    in comparison with the western powerful low-frequency OGAS, our "Ros-VM" is simply pathetic and wretched)
    tin and only when you read something like that ...

    6.
    and sell the vacated territories of the plant in St. Petersburg for housing? It is not a fact that this is so.
    the latter in a special way "smiled" and it's sad sarcasm, really ...
  • Polente the Wanderer
    Polente the Wanderer 4 January 2021 20: 45
    +4
    From the Internet, although not on the topic- "Maxim Klimov, also known on specialized forums as a mina user, has long been distinguished by his careless presentation of facts and a very emotional, but often incorrect assessment of the technical parameters and capabilities of many systems of the Russian Navy, the Navy The United States and the fleets of other maritime powers.
    In particular, several public disputes that took place with the participation of well-known Russian hydroacoustical scientists, brothers Valentin and Viktor Leksin, clearly showed that Klimov's competences are very far from both the issues of modern hydroacoustics and the problems of ballistic missiles for submarines.

    Even his profile specialization, related to submarine torpedo armament, was repeatedly used by Klimov to defend opportunistic and one-sided assessments of Russian weapons. Including, in the interests of the businessman Igor Ashurbeyli, who in 2001-2011 served as the general director of NPO GSKB Almaz-Antey.
    military expert of the Izborsk club Vladislav Shurygin.

    “I personally know Maxim Klimov,” said the expert. - He is a good specialist in the torpedo-mine armament of modern submarines - and this is his strong point. However, his knowledge in related fields is at least not so deep. And often, while working on this topic, he gets carried away, for which he received the reputation of a freak. " /
    "Mine" of delayed action, or City madmen against Russian submarines
    April 13 2019
    1. timokhin-aa
      4 January 2021 23: 56
      +1
      And nothing that FAN for this order then had to print Klimov's answer without distortion and editing? Under threat of trial?
      And here is a repost of Klimov's article by Shurygin. It fully characterizes how Shurygin relates to what Klimov is doing.
      https://shurigin.livejournal.com/707923.html

      Advice - do not trade in garbage, this is both harmful and ugly
      1. Dread
        Dread 5 January 2021 01: 13
        -3
        Quote: Maxim Klimov
        Zaslon JSC? It's not even funny. When the managing director of an organization, took on the development of the "super radar of the XXI century" (and before that developed only air conditioners), a person is appointed who left behind another large defense industry enterprise "at death", the result can only be disgrace (which DIMK, inadvertently, laid out from the shooting of "Thundering").

        Dear Captains! Not tired of writing not the truth, but a lie. JSC Zaslon
        created at the "Leninets" Association, which has been developing naval systems since the days of the USSR. Association "Leninets" often recruited technical personnel from LIAP.
        (Leningrad Institute of Aviation Instrumentation)
        Quote: Maxim Klimov
        Apparently, the developers of the "golden tower" of the "Zaslon" were slightly unaware that their electronic countermeasures and AWACS radar ("Hokaya") were working in different frequency ranges? And, accordingly, they have a deliberately zero efficiency for its radar?

        Maxim Klimov - please provide material on your statement, otherwise you are a liar!
        And also the captains: Klimov and Timokhin try to admit your ignorant mistakes in the last article: Leaky umbrella of the fleet. Technical analysis of the "Thundering" firing, which I pointed out in my comment for this article.
        I look forward to hearing from you.
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 5 January 2021 10: 50
          +1
          Actually, we have two "Leninists".
          TsNPO Leninets engaged in the development and NTC Leninets (Serial Plant) which became the Zaslon. STC Leninets never dealt with the development of such complex systems. (s.) Klimov.
          It was recorded on the fly.
          1. Dread
            Dread 5 January 2021 17: 24
            -7
            Quote: Cyril G ...
            Actually, we have two "Leninists".
            TsNPO Leninets engaged in the development and NTC Leninets (Serial Plant) which became the Zaslon. STC Leninets never dealt with the development of such complex systems. (s.) Klimov.

            Klimov - learn to write the truth together with Timokhin. You are completely illiterate in the field of Radar and write such a lie.
            Leninist is an NGO (Scientific and Production Association). Stop writing on VO not the truth, but a lie.
            I am a graduate of LIAP (GUAP now) and I know it better than you, specialty 0701 (Radio engineering). LIAP - was engaged in developments in the military field, and foreigners did not study in it during the Soviet era.
            Kirill G ..., I don't see Klimov's answers
            with Timokhin according to my comment in their article: Technical analysis of the "Thundering" firing.
            , where two captains showed their complete illiteracy in the propagation of decimeter waves in comparison with centimeter ones, and already in the next article they wrote the following lie. They are afraid to write my commentary and write further not the truth, but a lie, deceiving the members of the forum.
            I am waiting for a response to my comment on my comment -
            Quote: article: Technical analysis of the "Thundering" shooting

            Dear Captain! "Power is in the truth!"
            Why don't you like Russian designers so much? They are many heads higher than foreign ones ...
            You are somewhat confusing the forward range equation and the maximum range equation - they are not the same thing.
            Basically, decimeter radars are used for a long distance, in which EMW (electromagnetic waves) are less attenuated in the earth's space due to water vapor and precipitation, they spread further due to refraction, better bend around obstacles due to diffraction, and so on. However, there are also disadvantages - the larger dimensions of the antenna systems and the smaller rectangularity of the probing pulses, hence the lower accuracy in determining the range to the target ...
            Therefore, it is preferable to install decimeter antennas
            The radar is higher than the centimeter radar antennas for a greater detection range according to the direct range equation, which determines the greater radio visibility, and the maximum range equation - the technical capabilities of the radar - which I cited above. Centimeter radars are very sensitive to precipitation, sometimes even the use of polarizers in antenna mechanics does not save you from large rainfall illumination, while missing targets is possible.
            Captain - you just haven't figured out what the French want. Russian
            Constructors are stronger in this matter!

            Klimov and Timokhin - I am waiting for an answer and do not try to get out at someone else's expense on a lie.
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 16 January 2021 02: 37
              -1
              Quote: Dread
              Klimov - learn to write the truth together with Timokhin

              BAD here YOU
              Quote: Dread
              You are completely illiterate in the field of Radar and write such a lie.

              bunny, you are ABSOLUTELY ILLITERATE in that even pushing to "puff out your cheeks"
              Quote: Dread
              Leninist is an NGO (Scientific and Production Association). Stop writing on VO not the truth, but a lie.

              bunny, STC Zavod Leninets - which became JSC Zaslon has ANYTHING to CSPO Leninets (which is actually the developer of both Tu-160 and Su-34, etc.)
              Quote: Dread
              I am a graduate of LIAP (GUAP now) and I know it better than you

              then you're just a LIE
              Quote: Dread
              , where two captains showed their complete illiteracy in the propagation of decimeter waves in comparison with centimeter

              bunny are you RUNNING
              Quote: Dread
              Dear Captain! "Power is in the truth!" Why do you dislike Russian designers so much? They are many heads higher than foreign ones ...

              hike it for YOU in HALUCINOGENIC preparations lol
              Quote: Dread
              Therefore, it is preferable to install decimeter antennas
              The radar is higher than the centimeter radar antennas for a greater detection range according to the direct range equation, which determines the greater radio visibility, and the maximum range equation - the technical capabilities of the radar - which I cited above.

              listen spets
              if AT LEAST A LITTLE "chopped" in the radar, he would know that DM has serious problems in the drive layer, respectively. for the maximum radio horizon, it is necessary to raise the "low-altitude detector" as much as possible
              so shove your ACHINA with DM wherever it belongs
              Quote: Dread
              Centimeter radars are very sensitive to precipitation, sometimes even the use of polarizers in antenna mechanics does not save you from large rainfall illumination, while missing targets is possible.

              even better in the drive - mm range, but there are critical problems with GMU
              and as for the OPTIMAL BH, more than 95% of NAVIGATION radars operate exactly in the 3cm range
              Quote: Dread
              Captain - you just haven't figured out what the French want. Russian
              Constructors are stronger in this matter!

              Monsieur Dread, YOU are just a false nonsense and a complete zero in questions on which you are trying to portray something
              1. Dread
                Dread 18 January 2021 15: 22
                +1
                Quote: Dread
                Basically, decimeter radars are used for a long distance, in which EMW (electromagnetic waves) are less attenuated in the earth's space due to water vapor and precipitation, they spread further due to refraction, better bend around obstacles due to diffraction, and so on. However, there are also disadvantages - the larger dimensions of the antenna systems and the smaller rectangularity of the probing pulses, hence the lower accuracy in determining the range to the target ...
                Therefore, it is preferable to install decimeter antennas
                Radar above centimeter radar antennas for greater detection range


                Quote: Fizik M

                1. ONCE AGAIN - DM WORKS LOW IN THE DRIVE LAYER
                2.CM - GOOD
                3. MM is even better, but there are very serious problems with GMU
                more than 90% navigation radar - 3cm range
                acc. for the maximum radio horizon, the CM-radar should be as high as possible!

                Basic Radar Equation.

                Captains: Klimov and Timokhin, the basic radar equation shows completely my correctness and your complete illiteracy. The numerator under the root of the equation is the wavelength squared. Decimeter waves are attenuated less, since they have a longer wavelength and decimeter wave antennas should be installed preferable higher, the target detection range will be greater - the main purpose of long-range radar - discover the target! However, there are problems with hovering, and what I wrote above. therefore
                it is also necessary to use centimeter radars for guidance, more accurate, by definition, target parameters.
                The French, on the other hand, followed the path - the use of centimeter radars at once in order to reduce the amount of equipment on board. However, at the same time they are forced to significantly increase the power of the radar transmitting devices, which greatly reduces the efficiency of the equipment and requires more powerful power sources, which is not good.
                Captain Klimov! And now regarding your statement about the drive layer - you hear the ringing, but you don't know where it is. I will give you a few expressions about this:
                1. One of the most important mechanisms for the propagation of radio waves in the centimeter range
                is the evaporation waveguide, since
                the transceiver points of the ship's communications and radar systems are either within or above it. The evaporation waveguide actually constantly appears directly above the ocean surface in the presence of a rapid decrease in humidity with a height that in the adjacent air layer reaches
                one hundred%. Humidity decreases rapidly with height and narrower at heights of several meters reaches the value, which is determined by general meteorological conditions.
                2. The influence of the sea surface on the space-time structure of the electromagnetic field propagating over it causes a limitation of the radar range and a significant deterioration in the accuracy of measurements of the angular coordinates of surface objects. Various effects occur when working in millimeter or centimeter range at angular heights of the observed objects in units of milliradians, when due to strong darkening with the irradiating field, only the tops of sea waves interact.
                And in this case preferably install decimeter antennas
                above centimeters. In general, the technical installation of the antennas is carried out by designers, and not by illiterate captains of the Russian Navy!
                Quote: Fizik M
                Quote: Dread

                Why don't you like Russian designers so much? They are many heads higher than foreign ones ...

                and they also have three heads and five arms

                Captain Klimov with Captain Timokhin - you are very far from the designers of Russia in radar.
                This is for you - I proved it above! Learn materiel, illiterate captains!
                1. 2534M
                  2534M 11 February 2021 10: 37
                  -1
                  Quote: Dread
                  Captains: Klimov and Timokhin, the basic radar equation shows completely my correctness and your complete illiteracy

                  fool
                  Quote: Dread
                  The numerator under the root of the equation is the wavelength squared. Decimeter waves attenuate less

                  fool
                  Monsieur, DO YOU generally realize WHAT TRAPPING YOU ARE CARRYING?!?!?
                  the question is not about "fading" but THE INFLUENCE OF THE DRIVE LAYER !!!!
                  Quote: Dread
                  However, at the same time there are problems with aiming, and what I wrote above.

                  YOU didn’t "write" anything at all, but shrieked an illiterate nonsense
                  Quote: Dread
                  The French, on the other hand, followed the path - the use of centimeter radars at once in order to reduce the amount of equipment on board.

                  TO PSYCHIATRIC
                  DM channel in the "Tyles Tower" IS
                  and it is located CORRECTLY
                  Quote: Dread
                  radar transmitting power, which greatly reduces the equipment efficiency

                  Monsieur, fYzYk-hYmYk, but would not YOU be willing to confirm YOUR ACHINA with at least some "evidence"? wassat
                  Quote: Dread
                  Captain Klimov! And now regarding your statement about the drive layer - you hear the ringing, but you don't know where it is. I will give you a few expressions about this:
                  1. One of the most important mechanisms for the propagation of radio waves in the centimeter range
                  is the evaporation waveguide, since
                  the transceiver points of the ship's communications and radar systems are either within or above it. Evaporation waveguide

                  wassat
                  TO PSYCHIATRIC
                  I'm not a doctor
                  Quote: Dread
                  In general, the technical installation of the antennas is carried out by designers, and not by illiterate captains of the Russian Navy!

                  Monsieur ILLITERATE TRAPPING Dread! YOUR "counter-PULLERS" "promising antennas" on "promising projekt" 20386 have set so that:
                  - DM WAS NOT AT ALL
                  - SM-ANTENNAS HAVE BEEN AT A HEIGHT AND A HALF TIME LESS THAN 20385
                  Quote: Dread
                  Captain Klimov with Captain Timokhin - you are very far from the designers of Russia in radar.
                  This is for you - I proved it above! Learn materiel, illiterate captains!

                  Monsieur ILLITEATE dread, PSYCHIATORS don't even cry for YOU, but CRY lol
        2. Fizik M
          Fizik M 16 January 2021 02: 42
          -1
          Quote: Dread
          Dear Captains!

          monsieur, are you sure you are sober?
          Quote: Dread
          Not tired of writing not the truth, but a lie. JSC Zaslon
          created at the Leninets Association, which has been developing naval systems since the days of the USSR.

          at NPO Leninets, all serious developments were carried out by an organization today known as TsNPO Leninets
          and STC Zavod Leninets only mass-produced airborne radar for the MiG-31 and developed airfield air conditioners.
          Quote: Dread
          Maxim Klimov - please provide material on your statement, otherwise you are a liar!

          Have you been to the optometrist for a long time? the screen with the video "Barrier" is given in the text of the article
          For one visit the surgeon (or bite inadvertently) lol
          Quote: Dread
          try to admit your ignorant mistakes in the previous article: The Leaky Umbrella of the Fleet. The technical analysis of the "Thundering" firing that I pointed out in my commentary for this article.

          shortly -
          You are raving
          and YOU NEED A DOCTOR
          we have no medical education
      2. Vadim237
        Vadim237 5 January 2021 01: 38
        -2
        He is a specialist in torpedoes and acoustics, but in everything else, he is not.
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 16 January 2021 02: 28
          -2
          Quote: Vadim237
          he is an expert on torpedoes and acoustics, but he is not an expert on everything else.

          bunny, where did you pick it up?
      3. Polente the Wanderer
        Polente the Wanderer 5 January 2021 10: 55
        -4
        Timokhin.Maybe you're right and it really was a garbage page (https://weapon.temadnya.com/). I wanted to see what others write about the author. And by the way Shurygin (he spoke about this in the article from the “garbage can” above) in your link leads Klimov's article about mines, minesweepers and not about the radar or something else. And then the captain of the 3rd rank in the reserve solves the problems of the whole country on the basis of open (?) Sources. Maybe from the position of simple (I mean myself, if anything) ordinary people, the problems are not solved in any way and I want the fleet to be there, but there are arguments and for a long time And the most important thing is that all the discussions and reasoning about what, where and how to build mean nothing without money (you can't build anything without funding), and the money is easiest to take from pensioners, including me. Therefore, articles should be written by those who know about what they say and immediately there should be an article of the opponent for comparison. And by the way, in the article of Klimov there is an answer from the Presidential Administration that he must first contact the Ministry of Defense.
        Tell the Military-Industrial Courier is also a trash heap? If not, then with your permission I will present a repost of a representative of the Ministry of Defense
        https://www.vpk-news.ru/articles/47928
        "With a hodgepodge in my head
        The Defense Ministry's assessment differs little from those given by blogosphere experts
        Volosatov Alexander
        January 29 2019
        The newspaper "Military Industrial Courier" dated January 15, 2019 published an article signed by the author Maxim Klimov "Forgotten underwater rake. Our fleet is under the gun of a big mine disaster ”, which became another example of an extremely incompetent approach to the coverage of the issue of the anti-mine and anti-submarine component of the Russian Navy on the pages of the publication.

        For the author, Maxim Klimov, it has already become traditional to easily write on military topics of any complexity, without delving into the essence and completely not using the opportunity to get answers to questions from the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and the main command of the Navy. Moreover, which is typical for Klimov, in the same material there is a composite hodgepodge of completely different topics, made up of rumors and speculation. Moreover, as can be seen from the nature of Klimov's materials, the author understands his incompetence, but strengthens the emotional component of the articles due to the usual "hoax" and manipulation of information.

        In particular, trying to analyze the issues of anti-mine support of the Navy, the development of mine-sweeping forces, Maxim Klimov, without the slightest hesitation, uses outdated data, deliberately leaving out of sight the official information of the military department on the development of the anti-mine and anti-submarine forces of the Navy, which is regularly provided by the media to the official the order of the Ministry of Defense of Russia, as well as the heads of enterprises of the military-industrial complex.

        "Even foreign analysts know that the anti-submarine support of the Russian Navy in the regions of the World Ocean, in the far and near sea zone is at a height."
        The author cannot fail to know that the Navy is carrying out a large-scale program of updating and re-equipping mine-sweeping forces with new Project 12700 ships of the "Alexander Obukhov" type. But both the Russian Defense Ministry and the main command of the Navy have repeatedly informed the public and the media that more than 30 ships of this project, equipped with the most modern anti-mine systems, are being built for the fleet. For example, on January 26, the admission to the next mine defense ship of project 12700 "Ivan Antonov" will take place. In the same year, the next such ship "Vladimir Emelyanov" will be accepted into the fleet.

        By the way, the armament of mine-sweeping ships of existing projects is constantly being improved and updated. The author could find out about this by also contacting the Russian Ministry of Defense. But, most likely, Maxim Klimov needs to hurry to fulfill the publication plan, not caring about their essence and content.

        In the same article, the author, with his usual ease, suddenly turns from the topic of the mine-sweeping forces of the Navy to issues of anti-submarine defense, once again emphasizing his incompetence. Lacking sufficient experience in naval service, the author is ready to analyze any direction in the development and use of naval forces - from a single ship to actions of groupings and fleets, which as a result gives an absurd result.

        Meanwhile, even foreign analysts know that anti-submarine support for the actions of the Russian Navy in the regions of the World Ocean, in the far and near sea zone is at a height. This also applies to long-distance cruises of ships, as well as operations and actions of the Russian Navy groupings at sea.

        Even more surprising is the author's statements that the naval forces are not practicing combat training exercises in the Arctic. Probably, Maxim Klimov does not bother himself with routine monitoring of news information on this topic.

        Also, to make the texts of his publications believable, Klimov uses fragmentary and unverified information about various ship weapon systems, which reveals complete ignorance of most of the topics disclosed.

        In this case, this is our assessment of the activities of Maxim Klimov. But it differs little from the assessments given to this author by various experts in the so-called blogosphere.

        The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and the main command of the Navy have repeatedly voiced their proposals to the newspaper "VPK" on cooperation on issues of interest. These proposals remain valid and will be useful for the publication, which has a well-deserved authority.

        Alexander Volosatov,
        Deputy Head of the Department of Information and Mass Communications
        Published in issue # 3 (766) for January 29, 2019 "
        1. timokhin-aa
          5 January 2021 11: 50
          0
          I asked you not to climb the trash heaps. DIMK just doesn't know how to get away from what is happening, that's why it writes such propaganda materials like Volosatovskaya.
          For me, the same order was built somehow, different clowns like Dushenov were ordered to "refute" what I write, etc.
          Understand, we, normal people, cannot chase every shameful mongrel who barks out of the gateway something stupid and illiterate.
          The fact that I am giving you time is an exception to this rule. And so on the Internet you can find a lot of dirt on any person who does not like our MO. And all this will be an obvious and stupid lie, which only various defective individuals are seriously trying to use (the word "personality" in this case is inapplicable, probably).

          So take it easy, your attempts are ridiculous.
          1. Polente the Wanderer
            Polente the Wanderer 5 January 2021 11: 57
            -1
            Is a military-industrial courier a garbage dump? But you are printing there. There is no effort. I want to understand where the truth is. Make one more exception and answer in essence, if there is data.
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 16 January 2021 02: 26
              -1
              Quote: Wanderer Polente
              Military industrial courier dump?

              WASHING IS YOU
              The military-industrial complex was obliged to print this IMPRESSION of "konasha" (by the way, they were biting their elbows that they did it, and their PAWNING is not over yet)
        2. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 5 January 2021 20: 16
          +6
          Understand what the question is, after this one phrase you can send Hairy far and for a long time
          "Even foreign analysts know that the anti-submarine support of the Russian Navy in the regions of the World Ocean, in the far and near sea zone is at a height."

          For we have the OVR on its last legs, the average age of the IPC is strongly over 30. Modernization of weapons and electronic equipment is known The IPC did not pass from the word at all. By the way, the first seriously modernized ship DMZ is Shaposhnikov, modernized 7-8 Il-38. Mustache. How can you even talk about any anti-submarine support ???
        3. Cympak
          Cympak 5 January 2021 21: 06
          +2
          2 Wanderer Polente
          By the way, the armament of mine-sweeping ships of existing projects is constantly being improved and updated. The author could find out about this by also contacting the Russian Ministry of Defense. But, most likely, Maxim Klimov needs to hurry to fulfill the publication plan, not caring about their essence and content.

          When you write these words, can you specify what exactly on pr.12700 "is constantly being improved and updated"? And so unfounded somehow it turns out that it is being improved and updated, but what exactly is covered in darkness. You can, by the way, on the advice of Volosatov write an appeal to the MO. I think we will all laugh at the answer, unless of course they answer you, which I personally strongly doubt.
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 16 January 2021 02: 25
            -1
            Anti-submarine defense. Volosatov: “Even foreign analysts know that anti-submarine support for the actions of the Russian Navy in the regions of the World Ocean, in the far and near sea zone is at a height. This also applies to long-distance cruises of ships, as well as operations and actions of the Russian Navy groupings at sea. " some "even foreign analysts" have become "authority" for the "chief expert" of the RF Ministry of Defense. But what do the facts say? We are watching an aircraft carrier group's trip to the Mediterranean Sea. TAVKR "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov" - the anti-torpedo defense system "Boa", which was deliberately ineffective and outdated even at the development stage (there are references to this in the open special literature). TARKR "Peter the Great" and BOD "Severomorsk" were armed with the outdated hydroacoustic complex "Polynom" (developments of the late 70s of the last century), and anti-submarine weapons: anti-submarine systems "Waterfall" and "Rastrub", torpedoes SET-65K. The problem is not even the low performance characteristics of this weapon, but the absolute obsolescence and extremely low noise immunity of their homing systems (HSS). VN Shekhin about SSN "Waterfall" torpedoes UMGT-1 (complexes "Waterfall" "Trumpet"): "at the equal signal SSN D.P. Klimovets also had its own Achilles' heel - noise immunity. "CLS" Ceramics "of SET-65K torpedoes is generally American equipment ... early 60s of the last century (Mk46 mod.1)" reproduced on a domestic basis "(a literal phrase from the book on the history of the Central Research Institute" Hydropribor " ). Could something be done? Yes! Excerpts from the author's report to the RF Ministry of Defense (December 2015): “It is necessary: ​​Creation of a guaranteed coverage area of ​​the underwater situation around the maneuvering area of ​​the Moscow RRC near Latakia. …. transfer of several new torpedoes from the “Packet” complex to the RRC “Moskva”, ensuring their use according to an off-nominal scheme from a Ka-27 helicopter (with manual data input from a secure laptop). Technically it is absolutely real, and similarly .... " None of this was done by the Navy, all the time that the Kuznetsov TAVKR (and other ships of the Russian Navy) were in the combat area, they were "on the target" of foreign submarines, which could not oppose anything.

            Maxim Klimov 12 February 2019
            Torpedo firing in the Arctic. Mr. Volosatov's statements about "exercises in the Arctic" say that he did not even understand what they were talking about - performing torpedo firing in the Arctic (in ice cover conditions) with homing systems turned on. I repeat - the Navy of the USSR and the Russian Federation never performed them (not once). Despite the fact that the US and British navies annually practice anti-submarine exercises with massive torpedo firing. The question was raised by proactive officers many times, however, due to the obvious scandalous consequences of such tests, it did not move.
        4. Fizik M
          Fizik M 16 January 2021 02: 24
          0
          Quote: Wanderer Polente
          Alexander Volosatov,
          Deputy Head of the Department of Information and Mass Communications
          Published in issue # 3 (766) for January 29, 2019 "

          there are comments

          Maxim Klimov January 29, 2019
          Bravo Mr. Volosatov! With this stupid and illiterate opus, YOU PERSONALLY signed not only for your absolute incompetence, but also simply for your unwillingness to think. Apparently YOU think "very much interferes" with the unusually high, even for the central apparatus, the tariff category of YOUR position, as a result of which YOU personally do this not with your head, but by the place that "sits in the position." In my "trunk" I have a HARD article with a HUGE analysis of the REAL "results" (in quotes) of the "combat training" of the Navy for 2018. - written according to the data given by the officials of the Navy and YOUR, Volosatov department. As they say - thanks for YOUR stupidity. The answer to YOU ​​will be devastating.

          Maxim Klimov January 29, 2019
          And one more "piquant moment" - for a long time, Colonel (!!!) Volosatov "was listed in the payroll" as the CHIEF EXPERT of the press service of the RF Ministry of Defense. Actually, what an "expert" is in CASE is already clear from his own lines;) and the fact that, while completely ignoring the facts, he refers to the "opinions" of some "foreign analysts" and anonymous bloggers. It's a good question - is the Ministry of Defense officially referring to the "anonymous bloggers" here (it used to directly and completely rejected them;)) or is this the "personal opinion" of the "chief expert" Volosatov?

          Maxim Klimov 12 February 2019
          apparently according to the "opinion" of "expert Volosatov" this is "falsification of facts": Purchase No. 0173100004515000738 Date of the auction 25.05.2015/25/2016 Completion date: until November 4047, 788133.001. Purpose and objectives of the work results: maintaining in good condition the self-propelled remote-controlled mine seeker "Mayevka"…. training of personnel. Products 4047 SYNM.788133.001 and 01K SYNM.4047-788133.001 are intended for additional search, classification and destruction of anchor, bottom (including silted) and bottom mines detected by the ship's hydroacoustic mine detection station (GASM). Product 02668 SYNM.4047 is used for armament of TSCHM pr. 788133.001. Product 01K SYNM.0173100004518001288-02668 is used for autonomous installation on ships or vessels. Purchase No. 30 - a set of works for the repair of GAS "Livadia" on the order of project 2019 of the Black Sea Fleet. Completion date: September 2016, 2014. Conclusions from this: The only relatively modern anti-mine ship of the Black Sea Fleet was not operational (the main complex was not in service) until the end of 2019, and no measures were taken to urgently repair it with a sharp aggravation of the military-political situation at the beginning of 12700. the central bodies of the Navy and the RF Ministry of Defense were not undertaken. Today, the situation is similar, and its solution is only "planned" - by the end of XNUMX. There is not a single modern anti-mine ship in the ranks of the Black Sea Fleet today. Mr. Volosatov's statement on the modernization and improvement of the mine-fighting equipment of the minesweepers of the combat strength is simply a lie, the situation not only does not get better - they even lost what they had (for example, seekers). The new ships of Project XNUMX have a number of critical flaws and are unable to fight mines with modern fuses.

          Maxim Klimov 12 February 2019
          To the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation, General of the Army Shoigu S.K. Report. I am hereby reporting: on January 29, 2019, in No. 3 (766) of the newspaper "Military Industrial Courier", a letter was published by the Deputy Head of the Department of Information and Mass Communications of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, Volosatov (in response to my publications on the critical state of the Navy and marine underwater weapons (MPO ) Navy). I have to harshly and publicly raise critical questions of the Navy (MPS of the Navy) due to the lack of an adequate response to these problems from the officials of the Navy to all my appeals in a "closed format". Instead of taking emergency measures, they lie and ignore problems, up to sabotage (for which there is documentary evidence). The "price" of the false statements by officials and "Volosatov experts" about the alleged "well-being" of the Navy (and the IGO of the Navy) is the extremely limited real combat capability of the Navy against not only a modern enemy, but a terrorist threat (when using "smart" mines). The question was posed extremely tough and objectively in my report dated December 29.12.2018, 3. All statements by Mr. Volosatov cited in No. 766 (07.02.2019) of the "MIC" are completely false, absolutely incompetent and fundamentally at odds with the repeatedly voiced position of the Ministry of Defense on denying references to anonymous and dubious "bloggers and foreign analysts." Taking into account all the circumstances, I consider what is stated in the letter of Mr. Volosatov - his personal opinion, however, taking into account his publication as an official (with an indication of his position), - I believe that the issue requires an official and public explanation from the Ministry of Defense. For my part, I think that ignoring the obvious and documented facts of critical problems of the Navy is stupid. They need to be recognized and eliminated, and it is just about solving these obvious problems that it makes good sense to loudly announce in the media. And this is relevant not only for the citizens of the Russian Federation, but also as a factor in deterring opponents. I ask you to organize a verification of the facts stated in my publications and the content of the letter from Mr. Volosatov, with their adequate assessment. Until the response of the Ministry of Defense to this report, I do not intend to take legal actions related to knowingly false statements addressed to me by Mr. Volosatov. 3 Best regards, cap. XNUMX ranks in reserve Klimov M.A.
      4. Polente the Wanderer
        Polente the Wanderer 5 January 2021 11: 10
        0
        Timokhin. Can you tell me if there was a tender for the right to supply the radar? Did CONCERN MORINFORMSISTEMA-AGAT take part in it? Is there a decision (or is it classified) on the basis of which the Zaslon STC won? not worse, or rather, the best radar (Positive-M) lost for some reason not related to technical characteristics ...
        1. timokhin-aa
          5 January 2021 11: 44
          0
          There was a competition, the question is who and on what basis wrote the TTZ for it.
          Well, and the fact that the radar did not confirm the required performance characteristics.
          That is, even this is a gross violation of the law.
          1. Polente the Wanderer
            Polente the Wanderer 5 January 2021 12: 05
            -1
            The decision of the competition whose radar station is better or only your comments can be attached to the decision of the competition?
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 16 January 2021 02: 48
              -1
              Quote: Wanderer Polente
              The decision of the competition whose radar station is better or only your comments can be attached to the decision of the competition?

              a bunny would be quite "that"?
              what "competition"?
              Phazotron and NIIP did not allow
              and gave the STREAM BABLA to the developers of AIR CONDITIONING
        2. Fizik M
          Fizik M 16 January 2021 02: 49
          -1
          Quote: Wanderer Polente
          And then you come to the conclusion on the basis of Klimov's article that nothing is worse, or rather, the best radar (Positive-M) lost for some reason not related to technical characteristics ...

          You are delusional
          because from Salut there was a completely different offer, and most importantly - Salut is real EXPERIENCE and TECHNOLOGIES
    2. Fizik M
      Fizik M 16 January 2021 02: 46
      -1
      Quote: Wanderer Polente
      From the Internet, although not on the topic- "Maxim Klimov, also known on specialized forums as a mina user, has long been distinguished by carelessness in presenting facts and a very emotional, but often incorrect assessment

      TRAP Wanderer Polente, YOU were asked about YOUR WASHING Sources
  • Protos
    Protos 5 January 2021 01: 24
    -5
    EVERYTHING IS LOST wassat
    1. timokhin-aa
      5 January 2021 11: 42
      0
      What a clever comment.
  • A_Lex
    A_Lex 5 January 2021 02: 10
    +3
    Judging from the article, the following is clear - in the fleet today there are 7 TFR project 20380 and all of them are non-combatant, if by combat capability we mean anti-ship missiles and anti-aircraft missiles and air defense systems. And the TFR project 20385 is incapable of combat due to the presence of the Zaslon radar. Those. all 8 TFR that are in the ranks are incapable of combat, albeit for various reasons. Moreover, the TFR project 20380 cannot be built in principle due to the absence of the 3S14 UVP on them, which make it possible to use a wide range of modern weapons. 20 years have passed and it turned out that there are no new battle-worthy TFR.
    1. Cympak
      Cympak 5 January 2021 21: 46
      -2
      Quote: A_Lex
      Judging from the article, the following is clear - in the fleet today there are 7 TFR project 20380 and all of them are non-combatant, if by combat capability we mean anti-ship missiles and anti-aircraft missiles and air defense systems. And the TFR project 20385 is incapable of combat due to the presence of the Zaslon radar. Those. all 8 TFR that are in the ranks are incapable of combat, albeit for various reasons. Moreover, the TFR project 20380 cannot be built in principle due to the absence of the 3S14 UVP on them, which make it possible to use a wide range of modern weapons. 20 years have passed and it turned out that there are no new battle-worthy TFR.

      Well, not so sad. Project 20380 corvettes have been tested and brought to a combat-ready state. Of course, they still have problems:
      1. The corvettes of pr.20380 do not have PLUR, which significantly limits their anti-submarine capabilities. The existing "Packet-NK" is good for defending a ship from attacking torpedoes of a submarine, but it is extremely problematic to hit a modern submarine with it (if only the enemy makes a gross mistake about being exposed to attack). The use of PLUR would expand the attack capabilities of the corvette against the submarine, especially within the KAPUG. Unfortunately, the only modern PLUR "Answer" we have can be used only from the UKSK. The fleet never received the lighter Medvedka, apparently due to a fatal error in the design specification for it, when a NURS with a torpedo was actually made from the PLUR.
      Moreover, the Ka-27M is an extremely unsuccessful modification of the PLO helicopter. But there are not enough of them in the fleet anyway.
      2. With the anti-ship missiles of the project 20380, everything is almost good. Almost, because the fleet is putting on ships the first version of the Kh-35 "Uranus" with a range of 130 km. At the same time, a more advanced version of this Kh-35U anti-ship missile system with an increased range of 260 km is available and supplied to the coastal troops (the Bal complex), but it is not on the ships of the Russian Navy. X-35 can be used incl. for ground targets with known coordinates. In general, 2x4 X-35 are sufficient for a corvette in terms of shock capabilities.
      3. With the air defense system there were problems with the lack of accuracy of the Fourke radar for accurate guidance of the 9M96 missile. No correction was provided for the 9M96 missile on the cruising section. As a result, when the missile "turned on" its seeker, which has a narrow scanning sector, it could not detect the target (either because the target made a maneuver, or because of an error in target designation from the "Fourke" radar). through the modernization of the "Fourke" radar and through the use of the "Puma" artillery radar for more accurate targeting of missiles (as an ersatz solution).
      But the fact is that it seems that initially the main missile of the air defense system of the corvette of pr.20380 was supposed to be a short 9M100, which does not require radio correction and almost immediately "turns on" its radar after launch, so that the target does not have time to leave the search sector of the missile seeker ... But there is no information about the start of serial production of the 9M100 for the Navy. In addition, missiles with an active RGSN have a number of disadvantages (in the presence of an undeniable advantage in multi-channel targeting):
      - they are by definition more expensive than radio command-guided missiles
      - they have the problem of target distribution for a dense group of targets, it is not known what target each missile will capture after the launch and whether non-fired targets will remain in the group.
      In other words, the air defense system of project 20380 can now intercept single low-maneuverable targets, for example 1-2-3-4 anti-ship missiles, but it is extremely difficult for him to hit a maneuverable target at a distance of 20-40 km. In general, the capabilities of the air defense system (if the ammunition contains 9M96 and 9M100 missiles for the OVR ship is enough), but it is impossible to go on a long solo voyage in which an attack is possible, for example, the Turkish Air Force with such an air defense system cannot.
      1. A_Lex
        A_Lex 5 January 2021 23: 07
        +1
        Thank you for the interesting information, but to be honest, it is somehow not interesting to read about "fatal errors", "unfortunately", "significant limitations", etc. In the media came across pretentious fantasies about "a new tacit social contract, in which the people chose cannons instead of oil," but in fact, palm oil and cannons are not so hot. As I remember the end of the 885s, the plans were grandiose, and then I thought that, of course, they would not build as many XNUMXs as planned, but about a third of them should. And in fact, as it turned out, they were also incapable of fighting and were not at all what was needed, and those that were needed were not even in the plans ... Well, in any case, I drew conclusions for myself. It makes no sense to follow this topic further.
        1. Cympak
          Cympak 6 January 2021 02: 04
          -1
          "Best the enemy of the good". The problem is that for the same money, you could get more ships and a more balanced fleet. On the other hand, not many fleets are armed with corvettes and frigates armed with PLUR, anti-ship missiles, anti-aircraft missiles with ARGS. And in counter-torpedoes we are still in the lead.
          1. A_Lex
            A_Lex 6 January 2021 10: 37
            +1
            The problem is that for the same money


            The problem is not the money, but the decisions made about how to spend it. After 20 years, practice shows that decisions were made unsuitable. At the same time, no conclusions have been drawn, since no one bore real responsibility. Therefore, it is absurd to expect that the situation will change for the better. These are, in general, quite obvious things that there is no point in even just mentioning, because they are clear a priori.

            not many fleets are armed with corvettes and frigates armed with PLUR, anti-ship missiles, anti-aircraft missiles with ARGS


            Yes, and the Russian Navy is not one of them, if we proceed from the fact that there will be several fully combat-ready ships with a full range of weapons.
      2. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 6 January 2021 10: 33
        +1
        Quote: Cympak
        The fleet never received the lighter Medvedka, apparently due to a fatal error in the design specification for it, when a NURS with a torpedo was actually made from the PLUR.

        This is not a mistake at all, with a launch distance of 20-25 kilometers, the PLUR flight time is less than a minute. That is, the probability of hitting a submarine remains high enough.

        was supposed to be a short 9M100, which does not require radio correction and almost immediately "turns on" its radar after launch, so that the target does not have time to leave the missile's seeker search sector. But there is no information about the start of serial production of the 9M100 for the Navy. In addition, missiles with an active RGSN have a number of disadvantages (in the presence of an undeniable advantage in multi-channel targeting):


        You definitely understand that a hundred square meters are 10 times more expensive than the Pantsyr's rocket and 5 times more expensive than the Thor's rocket. And against the background of the need to re-equip the armed forces with 96 missiles, each released SOTka = unreleased 96th?
  • Termit1309
    Termit1309 5 January 2021 05: 22
    -2
    MF RLK "Zaslon" will never be brought to the required level of combat effectiveness

    Rather, they would have done it already. Maybe the author will shoot himself.
    1. timokhin-aa
      5 January 2021 11: 42
      0
      On the contrary, the author will be glad. That's just fine-tuning is extremely unlikely.
      And it's time for you to shoot, judging by the hysteria
  • Telomtr
    Telomtr 5 January 2021 09: 40
    0
    After reading the article, I still do not understand what is the disadvantage of the Barrier? Only that it hasn't passed the test of time?
    This radar operates in several ranges of X, S and others.
    1. timokhin-aa
      5 January 2021 11: 41
      +1
      1. Price. Such a system is not needed on the corvette.
      2. Fatal design errors.
      3. Performers who can't even make this work of their own work.
      4. Risks for the Navy, which receive a whole series of unusable ships, with JSC "Horns and Hooves" as the main contractor.
      1. agond
        agond 5 January 2021 13: 01
        0
        There are also troubles that, as a rule, a very talented administrator, not me, is a talented designer who, in turn, is not a talented scientist, but the designer, while still a narrow specialist, considers himself very smart and does not want to learn from examples of successful design solutions in other industries, for example, a gunsmith is what to learn from the engine operator or from the machine operator.
  • grumbler
    grumbler 5 January 2021 15: 01
    +2
    I am not a specialist, therefore I do not undertake to discuss the article meaningfully, it is better to do it by those involved (naval, shipbuilders, etc.).

    But the author's accusations of treason, I cannot but comment. Today (in the era of global media and "open architectures"), reasonable openness cannot harm.
    It is much worse if the systemic problems of construction (no matter if it is domestic policy, or particular problems of the development of the Russian fleet, space) are hidden under a smoke screen of "the most terrible military secret" or a falsely understood patriotism.

    Such programs as the development of the fleet, space, due to their incredible high cost, the need to involve all the economic, engineering and scientific forces of the country, due to the fact that these programs determine the appearance of these areas themselves (navy, space) and the corresponding branches of knowledge and industry, structure of budget expenditures decades ahead - require a very balanced approach.

    Yes, such materials will definitely fall into the eye (and now also into the "neural networks") of NATO analysts. But, if from them, the correct conclusions are drawn from US, then this will bring US advantages many times greater than the potential harm from "leaks". If, as a result, Russia gets a fleet sufficient to ensure its defense capability today and tomorrow.
    If the Fleet receives, those systems that are sufficient to fulfill its tasks (in conjunction with other types / branches of troops). If the monstrous programs for the construction of certain systems and series of ships are adjusted, reoriented or even canceled.
    The funds can be directed to where we often have a drawdown - to upgrade production facilities, to create coastal infrastructure and supplies, to revive and develop naval aviation, create surveillance and reconnaissance systems, to solve system-engineering problems, methodological support and training.

    Indeed, in articles and in comments on such resources, complaints are often heard about:
    a) Low quality of analytical scientific support required for "goal-setting" and ensuring its implementation with proper tools
    (crisis of the system of military research institutes).
    b) Very weak feedback between "top management" (generals, admiralty, government) and "practitioners" (officers, development engineers, scientists).
    And this, gentlemen-comrades, is a critical systemic management problem! - without solving it, we risk not ensuring parity and again ruining the country with ineffective, but colossal spending.

    Against the background of non-market competition characteristic of the military-industrial complex, very opaque pricing and other problems of our shipbuilding (see, for example, Konstantin Makienko "Shipbuilding in the shadow of a useless superstructure", https://nvo.ng.ru/armament/2020-12- 17 / 1_1122_armament.html), such "alarmist" articles can only be welcomed (again, provided that we ourselves respond correctly and timely to them).
  • Termit1309
    Termit1309 5 January 2021 15: 23
    0
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    On the contrary, the author will be glad. That's just fine-tuning is extremely unlikely.
    And it's time for you to shoot, judging by the hysteria

    Absolutely calm, no hysteria. And you should stop drinking. I understand it's a shame, all the movement is past you.
    But your liver and your nervous system will shut down so quickly.
  • Cympak
    Cympak 5 January 2021 21: 57
    -1
    The question is essentially.
    The article says that
    This year, he completed tests of the Odintsovo MRK with the Pantsir-M air defense missile system. Unlike "Kortika", the command module of which was the radar "Positive", "Pantsir-M" received a new very effective target detection system of 10-cm range with stationary AFAR canvases (developed by TsKBA). At the same time, "Odintsovo" also has a 3-cm radar "Positive-M", which very effectively complements the 10-cm SOTS "Pantsirya-M".


    On the photo on the left is the Odintsovo MRK, and on the right is the Mytishchi MRK.
    Differences in radio-technical weapons are visually visible. According to various sources on the head "Mytishchi": above the wheelhouse of the Mineral-M radar with two flat HEADLIGHTS for viewing the surface space and over-the-horizon detection and tracking of surface targets, above it, under
    Radiotransparent hood universal radar "Positive-MK"
    On the new "Odintsovo": at the wheelhouse there is a superstructure with 4 PAR 1RS-3 complex "Pantsir-M", above them under the radio-transparent cap of the radar complex "Mineral-M".
    The article also says that there is a "Positive-M" hidden under a radio-transparent hood. Then why is there such a visually noticeable difference in the size of the radio-transparent cap between these two MRCs?
  • Usher
    Usher 6 January 2021 04: 11
    -4
    To be honest, I see admiration for everything Western. Where are the proofs about the fact that all of your navigation radars are anti-ship missiles? If the anti-ship missile system detects a 3-cm navigation radar of general visibility and can give the control center. Then why bother building gardens and dancing with a tambourine? Here one comrade writes that double-hull submarines are the last century)))) Here they write that Furke is not needed. And they cite some mythical AN-SPQ (sarcasm). Did you yourself fire these AN-SPQs? We went to the nuclear submarine with one hull, thought what would happen with the flooding of at least one compartment of your "single-hull" submarines? Did the Argentine San Juan disaster show you anything?
  • Usher
    Usher 6 January 2021 04: 15
    -3
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    On the contrary, the author will be glad. That's just fine-tuning is extremely unlikely.
    And it's time for you to shoot, judging by the hysteria

    You are hysterical. Everywhere you poke about "constructor errors" in general, wherever you look. In every article I see a scribble in the form of "fatal design errors" under your nickname. I see you are an unrecognized genius. And everyone in the world? It seems to be a disease.
  • Usher
    Usher 6 January 2021 04: 16
    -6
    They drive the wave straight. Everything was lost, the second Tsushima, fatal design mistakes, stole 5 trillion. Straight on the manual)))
  • Cympak
    Cympak 6 January 2021 13: 42
    +1
    Quote: Cyril G ...
    Quote: Cympak
    The fleet never received the lighter Medvedka, apparently due to a fatal error in the design specification for it, when a NURS with a torpedo was actually made from the PLUR.

    This is not a mistake at all, with a launch distance of 20-25 kilometers, the PLUR flight time is less than a minute. That is, the probability of hitting a submarine remains high enough.

    Then what is the reason for not adopting Medvedka? For the corvette and MPK "Medvedka" the most suitable PLUR in terms of weight and dimensions and a torpedo delivery range of 20 km.

    Quote: Cyril G ...
    was supposed to be a short 9M100, which does not require radio correction and almost immediately "turns on" its radar after launch, so that the target does not have time to leave the missile's seeker search sector. But there is no information about the start of serial production of the 9M100 for the Navy. In addition, missiles with an active RGSN have a number of disadvantages (in the presence of an undeniable advantage in multi-channel targeting):


    You definitely understand that a hundred square meters are 10 times more expensive than the Pantsyr's rocket and 5 times more expensive than the Thor's rocket. And against the background of the need to re-equip the armed forces with 96 missiles, each released SOTka = unreleased 96th?

    Yes, I wrote about the high cost as a disadvantage of the 9M100, but more advanced and technologically advanced weapons always cost more. As for the fact that 9M100 replaces 9M96, it is only a matter of organizing mass production. To provide multi-layered air defense on a corvette with 12 UVP, a combination of missiles is needed: 6-8 9M96 missiles for engaging at medium range, and 16-24 9M100 missiles for close range.
    It must also be admitted that the Pantsir-M was put into service only this year. And it has significant restrictions on the defeat of maneuverable targets and on work during fog, precipitation, etc.
    Our industry has lost the ability to produce the marine version of the "Torah" - the "Kinzhal" air defense missile system. In addition, it is required to install somewhere a healthy 3P95 radar booth so as to provide it with maximum viewing angles. The possibilities of firing at targets at one antenna post of the Kinzhal air defense missile system are limited to a sector of 60x60 degrees and 4 simultaneously fired targets. The characteristics of the standard 9M330 rocket cannot be considered sufficient: the distance is up to 12 km, the height is 6 km.
    What air defense system do you propose to install on the corvettes of pr.20380 in such conditions?
    1. huntsman650
      huntsman650 7 January 2021 21: 18
      0
      Dagger M, stands on the severomorsk bpc, firing sector 90g. Digital computer based on Baguette. And what is the AP on the "Hat" in the nose?
      1. Cympak
        Cympak 7 January 2021 23: 11
        +1
        About the SAM "Dagger M" information did not come across. Where can I see it?
        On the modernized Marshal Shaposhnikov, a new antenna post 9R95MR of the Kinzhal air defense missile system should be located above the wheelhouse. But experts have high suspicions that a rough layout has been installed (it does not look very much like a real antenna post)


        1. huntsman650
          huntsman650 8 January 2021 13: 23
          0
          Posted in profile l.
    2. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 8 January 2021 17: 56
      0
      Quote: Cympak
      and 16-24 9M100 missiles for close range.


      Weaving is an incredibly expensive solution, and without radio correction, it is also meaningless. To work in the near zone, multichannel air defense systems with RKTU + SAM with ARGSN are needed to work in the far and middle zone
      1. Cympak
        Cympak 8 January 2021 20: 05
        -1
        How to ensure a high channel target and all-aspect defense at the RKTU? It is necessary to put several posts of the SSTSR (at least 2). ... The declared range for the 9M100 is 15 km. There are no exact data on ARGSN 9M100, but if we take the data on ARGSN of the RVV-SD missile, then a target with an EPR of 3 square meters is detected from a distance of about 20 km. Those. with accurate preliminary target designation, the ARGSN RVV-SD should capture the target immediately after launching and turning on the target, it no longer needs radio correction.
        Well, the main question: which air defense missile system with rocket launcher (from the serially produced ones) do you propose to install on the corvette of pr.20380 and, most importantly, where?
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 8 January 2021 21: 17
          0
          Quote: Cympak
          Well, the main question: which air defense missile system with rocket launcher (from the serially produced ones) do you propose to install on the corvette of pr.20380 and, most importantly, where?


          Rocket Armor with removed guns and enlarged SAM ammunition. See Artic.

          Those. with accurate preliminary target designation, the ARGSN RVV-SD should lock the target immediately after launching and turning on the target, it no longer needs radio correction.

          And if the target maneuvers? And if with regards to the 9M100 MD SAM, I can still agree with you, but the range is small, but I strongly disagree with the 9M96.
          1. Cympak
            Cympak 8 January 2021 21: 59
            -1
            I agree that the installation of the Arctic variant "Pantsir-M" (without SHP, with manual reloading) with 18 combat-ready missiles on the roof of the corvette hangar in addition to the Redut air defense system would be very useful for guaranteed completion of targets.
            About 9M100. If the target maneuvers and the missile's ARGSN managed to capture it, then the missile will be guided to the target and it no longer needs radio correction. Let me remind you that the 9M100 missile, with a declared range of 15 km, should immediately activate the ARGSN after launch and turn to the target. Radio correction is needed for the 9M96 and 9M96E2 missiles on the cruising section, when the ARGSN is not yet activated and the rocket flies along the INS to the calculated point, at which it must turn on the ARGSN and use it to detect the target.
            From the point of view of the use of missiles with ARGSN for the close air defense line of ships of the corvette and frigate class, this is a world trend:
            French Mica VL on corvettes like "Govind-200", MEKO A200 with a range of up to 20 km
            British CAMM on Type 26 frigates, range up to 25 km.
            1. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 8 January 2021 22: 02
              0
              The global trend does not have so many opponents. Again, in our conditions, the price is critical, as well as the fact that our factories will either make one 9M100 or one 9M96
    3. frog
      frog 9 January 2021 15: 51
      0
      Then what is the reason for not adopting Medvedka? For the corvette and MPK "Medvedka" the most suitable PLUR in terms of weight and dimensions and a torpedo delivery range of 20 km.

      Strictly IMHO, but, as in many other things, sometimes the corresponding uncles really do not want to put products of one office and vice versa. The quality of products and other lenses do not play a special role in these cases. And why so - Allah knows repeat You can guess, but it is difficult to voice it, because now they have adopted very convenient laws wink
  • Alexander X
    Alexander X 7 January 2021 12: 59
    0
    I am far from the nautical theme, so when I first read the article, I could not get into the technical features. Therefore, I cannot assess the validity of the author's conclusions. But, if the author is right, then I had a "question in the studio": how could it happen that the author of the article sees the depravity of systems, but the leaders of the Navy, designers, are adopting deliberately failed projects and decisions?
    And if the author of the article is right, then can the actions of those responsible for making such decisions be called otherwise than sabotage and sabotage? And if the author is right, then why has not an investigation been initiated by the relevant inquiry bodies?
    1. Cympak
      Cympak 7 January 2021 23: 15
      -1
      We do not know all the motivation of decision-makers and all the limitations. But they will definitely not tell us about them.
  • Dmitriy51
    Dmitriy51 7 January 2021 23: 45
    +2
    Projects can be different. But the ships are built in series. And 3-4 is not a series. We do not have enough mooring front, but you mean corvettes .... Yes, there are new ships, vessels. But they need TENS, not 1-2 ...
    For example, in the same Northern Fleet. Who knows, he will smile, whoever reads only "done with us" - good mood for them.
    There are no ships, no docks for their annual docking, no berths with power (electricity, steam, water, communications), no real factories with specialists! Drag from one order to another. Support ships, rescuers ... It's only on TV that "warships" go on a campaign, but in fact they are accompanied by rescuers, tankers, and supplies. And they need a change on the hike.
    So you can make different plans. Beautiful and large-scale. But in order to realize them, it is necessary not only to print paper ...
  • shonsu
    shonsu 8 January 2021 10: 02
    0
    Bullshit.
  • Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 8 January 2021 17: 51
    0
    Quote: FoxNova
    And you want to cut off the air defense of corvettes altogether as on the Type 56 in favor of mass production.
    Than we will fight back.


    For a mass corvette, an adequate solution is to borrow the "mast" from Project 22800. There we have Positive + SOC Armor (pyramid) + Monument. and separately Bagheera, in which I personally do not see a problem. And piling up a harsh concept for the sake of 16 missiles is a complete trash, especially considering that according to rumors, there is no radio correction from the word at all.
    1. Cympak
      Cympak 8 January 2021 20: 14
      0
      On which of the MRK pr.22800 "there is simultaneously" Positive "," Monument "and 4 PAR 1RS-3 complex" Pantsir-M "?
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 8 January 2021 21: 20
        -1
        Quote: Cympak
        On which of the MRK pr.22800 "there is simultaneously" Positive "," Monument "and 4 PAR 1RS-3 complex" Pantsir-M "?

        1. Cympak
          Cympak 8 January 2021 22: 01
          0
          I see 4 PAR 1RS-3 complex "Pantsir-M" in the mast superstructure, and on them under the radio-transparent hood "Positive" or "Monument", or both at the same time?
          1RS-3 - SOC for "Pantsir-M", i.e. works by "air"
          "Monument" - works on surface targets in active and passive mode
          "Positive" - ​​a universal radar designed to search, detect and track surface and air targets
          Logic suggests that a "Monument" is hidden under the radio-transparent hood
          1. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 8 January 2021 22: 08
            -1
            My version is different.
            1. Cympak
              Cympak 8 January 2021 22: 21
              0
              In my opinion, on the sides of the mast superstructure of the antenna of the radio-electronic warfare station MP-405-1, and not the "Monument"
            2. The eye of the crying
              The eye of the crying 9 January 2021 12: 47
              -1
              The word "shell" is spelled with "and".
  • Ratmir_Ryazan
    Ratmir_Ryazan 10 January 2021 20: 53
    0
    What kind of a barrack we have with corvettes ?!

    The radar does not work, the GAK does not work, the old nicherta helicopter cannot find it, and some ghouls want to bankrupt the Zvezda.

    It's time to send the raster command.