Military Review

The most ancient firearm: where did it all begin ?!

387

Chinese equestrian warrior of 1276 against the background of the Great Wall of China (a), armed with a "fiery spear" - lia hua chang (b). Such weapon widely used by the Song dynasties (1117-1279) and Ming (1368-1644)


That guns really flashed,
Rattles a ramrod hammer.
Bullets go into the faceted barrel
And snapped the trigger for the first time.
Here is a powder streak greyish
Pours onto the shelf. Serrated,
Securely screwed in flint
Cocked again.
A. S. Pushkin. Eugene Onegin

History firearms. Not so long ago, an article about "Greek fire" appeared on VO, and materials on the history of firearms appear regularly. But ... and how did it all begin? This is a question that was not covered very well in our country, and yet it is from him, like from a stove, that we should all "dance". Why exactly this way, and not otherwise, what directions of development of firearms were given to us by the past, and which ones appeared later - in a word, everything is about it from the very beginning. This is what our story will be about, which will be devoted to several articles.

So, let's start with the question of gunpowder, because without it, firearms are simply impossible. But here we enter the shaky ground of speculation and assumptions, because where it came from, no one knows for sure. For example, the British arms magnate V. Griner once wrote the book "Shotgun" and there he cited an excerpt from the ancient Indian law that a commander in war should not use dastardly techniques, be it poisoned arrows, or fire-fighting weapons. In his opinion, "fire-fighting weapons" were just firearms. And if so, then ... gunpowder, they say, was invented in India. The fact is that there are areas where saltpeter deposits come to the surface. The specific properties of this substance could have attracted the attention of the ancients - so, they say, they made gunpowder on the basis of nitrate. But the same is true with saltpeter in China. No wonder the Arabs called it "Chinese salt". It is known that the Arabs knew a mixture of 60 parts of saltpeter and 20 parts of sulfur and coal. In fact, this mixture is gunpowder, which was used by the Arabs as early as 690 during the siege of Mecca. However, many believe that they did not come up with this mixture initially, but borrowed it again from the Chinese.

Those, by the way, made a significant contribution to the development of gunpowder weapons, although they used the nitrate mixture itself rather as fuel for primitive missiles, and not as an explosive and propellant. So, in 682, the alchemist Sun Si-miao described how, by combining saltpeter and sulfur with vegetable charcoal, to obtain an intensely burning composition. Alchemists Chin Hua-tung and Qing Xu-tzu also wrote somewhere in 808 or so that sulfur, saltpeter, and powdered kokornik plant can produce a combustible composition very similar to gunpowder in its proportions.

Then in 904, Zheng Fang uses some kind of "flying fire" to set fire to the gates of the Yuchkhan fortress, but there, most likely, powder shells were fired from ordinary throwing machines. In 969 Yui Fang, and in 970 Feng Tszi-shen offered "fire arrows" Huo Jian, which had tubes with gunpowder, which, when fired, were set on fire with a wick and gave these arrows additional acceleration.


Chinese missilemen of the Ming dynasty. Rocket launcher for shooting "fire arrows", 1450 (1); shooter with a rocket container (2). Drawing by a contemporary artist based on ancient Chinese miniatures

In the future, it came to the use of the explosive power of gunpowder. So, on October 15, 1000, an officer of the Imperial Guard Tang Fu proposed for testing a projectile ji li ho qiu ("fireball with a thorn") - apparently, a ball of powder pulp, with a shell of metal thorns, which flew in all directions during the explosion. It can be considered that it was the world's first high-explosive incendiary projectile, although information about it is very scarce.

On September 15, 1132, Chen Tui, who was defending the Chinese fortress of Zan, used the Ho Qiang weapon - "bamboo fire pipes" capable of throwing fire. Cheng Gui's flamethrower tubes can be considered the forerunners of barreled firearms, although the question of what exactly they threw besides fire remains open. One way or another, this terrified the unprepared enemy. But the Chinese had already used missiles in 1232, defending Beijing, and in the city of Loyang, with the help of catapults, they threw iron vessels with gunpowder at the Mongol soldiers.

Accordingly, in 1258, the Mongols used the same weapon during the siege of Baghdad, and in 1259, defending Shauchun, the Chinese threw out certain objects called zike from a bamboo pipe using gunpowder. That is, we can talk about something like a cannon, but only for now a wooden one!


Miniature from a manuscript by Walter de Milimet. British library

However, today the main thing is not known - who, when, and where invented the metal barrel. What is known? It is known that in the manuscript of Walter de Milimet (or Walter Milimetsky - whoever likes it - author's note), which is something like a children's encyclopedia for the young King of England Edward III, you can see an image of the oldest European "fire-fighting" weapon. This "tool" resembles a jug and is clearly made of bronze. It lies on a kind of goat, directed towards the castle gate, and a feathered arrow sticks out of it. The knight standing behind him, and this is precisely the knight, since he is dressed in surcoat and wears heraldic aylets on his shoulders, brings the wick to the ignition hole. This manuscript was written between 1326 and 1330. That is, it is obvious that something like this already existed then!


And here is the reconstruction of this "weapon" from the Royal Arsenal in Leeds

In 1861, in Sweden, near the village of Loshult, a bronze barrel of a flask-shaped shape and 30 cm long was found.Today, this artifact is considered the most ancient example of a barrel firearm that has come down to us. True, it is not clear how it was used and what it was secured on, but the fact that “this” was used to fire is undoubtedly!

Another completely unique artifact was also found in Sweden. This hexagonal bronze barrel is a real work of foundry art, and for some unknown reason, it is decorated with a man's bearded head. Manufacturing time - the second half of the XIV century. This barrel was put on with its rear end on a wooden "stick", which, most likely, was clamped under the arm when firing. It is interesting that the cone-shaped ignition hole is located on top of it, has a side, but for some reason it is in front of the head, and not behind it, which would certainly be more logical. The hook with which this kind of weapon clung to the wall is molded along with the barrel, right under the head.

The most ancient firearm: where did it all begin ?!

This stem from the Historical Museum in Copenhagen

This type of weapon with hooks on the barrel is called gakovnits (from the word "gak" - "hook"). The very name of the trunk in different countries has different origins. In England, the barrel is called barrel, which also means barrel, but in languages ​​such as Italian, French and Spanish, the word barrel comes from the word pipe. The Czech word "wrote" means "pipe", and it was from him that the word pishchal took root in the Slavic-speaking countries. Interestingly, in the same Italy, short barrels for hand-held firearms were called bombardellas, that is, they were called in a diminutive manner "cannons", thus indicating their small size, in contrast to massive bombards - "big guns". Which, however, is not at all surprising, since the length of many of these trunks was only 25-35 cm.


Perhaps this is how similar bronze barrels were used ... Fig. T. V. Kanivets

Nevertheless, even then, a gradual increase in the length of the trunk was observed. For example, the barrel of the so-called "cannon from Tannenberg" is known, which was found during excavations of the Tannenberg castle, which was destroyed in 1399. That is, this barrel could not have been made later than this date, but earlier - as much as necessary.

This barrel is also made of bronze. It is cast and has a length of 80 cm and a caliber of about 14,5 mm. The barrel is octahedral, the ignition hole is on top, and the powder chamber is very unusually arranged: at the exit from it there is a narrowing, beyond which the projectile does not pass inside.


This is the trunk. German National History Museum, Nuremberg

One of the very serious problems of the then gunpowder weapon was the specific consistency of the gunpowder itself, which looked like a black and very sticky powder. Such gunpowder was hygroscopic, when poured into the barrel it adhered to its walls, but most importantly, it was difficult to ignite it in a confined space, although it seems surprising. However, the fact is that the gunpowder was compacted in the barrel of the then gunpowder guns, there was no access to oxygen to the charge, and it was difficult to make coal grains burn so that the nitrate would start to release oxygen from heating. It often happened that such gunpowder burned out in the ignition hole, but it was not possible to set it on fire in the barrel. A solution was found in the use of a red-hot metal rod, which was inserted into the ignition hole. By the way, that is why it was first made from above ... But such an "ignition system" was inconvenient, as it required a brazier with coals, which had to be carried behind the shooter.


Here we see various examples of hand-held gunpowder weapons of the 1th century: 2 - a cast "shooting mug", most likely, such a weapon could be used in fortresses - to shoot from around the corner at their own destroyed gates through which the enemy climbed; 13 - "the vector of multi-barrel and multi-charge" took place even then: before us is a shooter with a four-barreled firing club, next to him lie two more of the same (14, 12) and something impressively multi-barreled (3) - the advantage of such a weapon was that, having fired off all the charges, they could successfully hit the enemy on the head; 4 - shooter with pavese; 10, 5 - forged iron barrel on a wooden shaft or attached to an iron bar - that's all the weapon; 7, 9, 6 - arrows with hooks; 8 - shooter with a short stem; 11 - the simplest S-shaped ignition mechanism; 15 - scythe hakovnitsa: shoot and chop the enemy hand-to-hand with it; XNUMX is another example of a hybrid weapon - an ax gun.

Illustration from the book by Liliana and Fred Funkenov “Encyclopedia of weapons and military clothing. MIDDLE AGES. VIII-XV centuries: Armor and weapons. Fortresses and siege machines. Knightly tournaments and emblems. M .: Astrel, 2002, p. 63

Therefore, very soon they began to grain the gunpowder. In any case, it is known that in 1421 in the Czech city of Znaimo it was already granulated. Now there was air between the individual powder grains, and they flared up much faster and burned with greater recoil. Now it was already possible to set it on fire not with a hot rod, but with a slowly smoldering wick, which turned out to be much more convenient.


1 - device of the barrel of the "Tanneberg gun" 1399; 2 - vertical fuse with a depression; 3 - fuse of a different type, lateral, with a "pellet" for gunpowder; 4 - the second type of serpentine (see the first in the previous illustration), used in the middle of the 5th century; 6 - the third type of serpentine with a plate covering the ignition hole from wind and rain, second half of the 1475th century; 7 - the fourth type of serpentine (Germany) with a spring escapement, a "pellet" for gunpowder and a plate that covers it from wind and rain - made in 1470, a completely new revolutionary type of weapon for this era; 7 - equestrian cooler, circa 8 - this primitive weapon called petrinal or puatrinal was used along with serpentines until the beginning of the 9th century; 10a - a detail of the gun mount, the shooter had to insert the pin to soften the recoil; 10 - in the middle of the XNUMXth century. the missing fuse was compensated for by the fact that the second warrior, the “incendiator” (igniter), was assigned to the shooter "colineator" (powder-man); XNUMX - hand cannon of the late XNUMXth century: some guns are too powerful and too heavy to be fired from the shoulder, used in this way - these guns are mistakenly considered identical to guns on a wooden stand from the same era; XNUMX - an Italian mercenary (mercenarium) in the service of the French king, the end of the XNUMXth century: he is armed with a “multiply-charged firearm” (espignol), which released several cannonballs one after another; XNUMXa - sectional view: in fact, this is a prototype of a machine gun, however, having started shooting, this "machine gun" could no longer stop, but a man armed with it could inflict terrible devastation on a crowd of opponents!

Illustration from the book by Liliana and Fred Funkenov “Encyclopedia of weapons and military clothing. MIDDLE AGES. VIII-XV centuries: Armor and weapons. Fortresses and siege machines. Knightly tournaments and emblems. M .: Astrel, 2002, p. 65

How effective such weapons were, say tests conducted in the 30s of the last century in Sweden in Stockholm. A copy of an old hand barrel 200 mm long and 23 mm caliber was tested. The lead bullet weighed 52 grams, the gunpowder was made according to the recipe of 1380 from six parts of saltpeter, one sulfur and one coal. When firing, this bullet pierced a 28 cm thick board at a distance of 5 meters, and 46 cm at a distance of 2,54 m, that is, one inch. Naturally, not a single chain mail and not a single shell would have protected the owners of this armor at these distances, if such a bullet had hit them!


Well, such a cannonball could even kill not even one, but several soldiers in the crowd at once. Such a core was found during excavations on the territory of the Penza fortress, that is, it did not get here until 1653. Penza Museum of the Russian Army

PS The author and the site administration would like to thank Sarah Dixon, Communications Department of the Historical Museum in Copenhagen, for her assistance in obtaining illustrative and informative material for this article.

To be continued ...
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  1. Far B
    Far B 9 January 2021 06: 31
    -11%
    I do not agree with the main postulate. A firearm isn't necessarily gunpowder. Not at all necessary. Here I banged 548 with the main caliber - and there the powder was zero. But this is a firearm, right? that's it.
  2. Hunter 2
    Hunter 2 9 January 2021 06: 53
    +10
    The history of the confrontation between India and China began to play with new colors what ... it turns out that they cannot share the “palm” in the invention of gunpowder.
    I read the article with pleasure, I carefully studied the illustrations! Vyacheslav Olegovich, as always - Respect and Respect good !
    The head on the barrel from the Copenhagen Museum, I would venture to suggest, is part of the sighting device ... perhaps the second part of it was on a wooden "butt". request
    1. Crowe
      Crowe 9 January 2021 07: 13
      +14
      Quote: Hunter 2
      The history of the confrontation between India and China

      Here, to hoarseness, you can argue where the gunpowder was invented and when - there are many versions! Thanks to the author, as always interesting and beautifully illustrated! I like it more - you read about the same "cannon from Tannenberg" - right there is an image of it. I looked, appreciated it visually and Read on to yourself. Thank you!
    2. kalibr
      9 January 2021 08: 11
      +7
      Quote: Hunter 2
      perhaps the second part of it was on a wooden "butt".

      An interesting idea you have. This is the first time I come across ... But we will never know.
      1. Hunter 2
        Hunter 2 9 January 2021 08: 54
        +7
        Quote: kalibr

        An interesting idea you have. This is the first time I come across ... But we will never know.

        Good morning hi In this case, it is quite logical to place the Head behind the ignition hole (the flash from the ignition of the charge will not blind the shooter and overlap his target).
        In general, I had two options, the second - that after the shot you can use the halberd as an "ersatz", sharpen the hook and the Head on the barrel is like a hammer, quite a weapon of shock-crushing action! What are you right about - We can only guess about its purpose!
        1. svd-xnumx
          svd-xnumx 9 January 2021 12: 00
          +4
          (the flash from the ignition of the charge will not blind the shooter and block his target)
          It's not even about overlapping the target, but the fact that it could stupidly scorch the face, since a lot of gunpowder was probably poured into such a large firing hole. was rammed.
        2. Ml. Sergeant
          Ml. Sergeant 9 January 2021 23: 03
          +2
          Good evening
      2. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 9 January 2021 09: 28
        +1
        In high school we read the composition of black powder in one book. The components were found, ground, folded and it ... does not burn! Well, so, lazily, puffs and does not burn completely! We fought over this for a long time and already thought that there was a mistake in the book. Then the older guys explained that they needed to grind to a flour-like state. They told how to make a ball mill.
        That's when our rockets flew, and the explosion of the packets began to create noise!)))
        1. Fat
          Fat 9 January 2021 19: 23
          +2
          Greetings Nazarius. Honestly, my high school black powder experiments went by. Still, it's not very simple. But our cool lady was a "chemist", so there were plenty of alternatives and recipes. So, "rocket powder" and small gunpowder are very two big differences ... Both the missiles and the "Empress Maria" model flew equally beautifully ... laughing
          PS With "black" powder (with compositions and consistency), not everything is simple yes
          1. The leader of the Redskins
            The leader of the Redskins 9 January 2021 19: 35
            0
            You haven't worked with "caramel" yet! Well, magnesium with potassium permanganate is a separate topic.
            1. Fat
              Fat 9 January 2021 20: 42
              +2
              Quote: Leader of the Redskins
              You haven't worked with "caramel" yet!

              Well ... OH fellow It was Alexander Zasyadko who "worked", and we, the children, joked with what he would turn up, just to "bang" ... yes
            2. kytx
              kytx 10 January 2021 07: 20
              +1
              magnesium with potassium permanganate is our everything
              a wheel is stolen from a helicopter at the airfield (for some reason there is a magnesium rim)
              shavings are cut with a fine drill
              an explosive mixture is being prepared (I don't remember the proportions there was something else)
              We tightly fill the matchbox (we did not use ready-made striking elements, because the main thing is a big broads and a flash)
              the box is tightly covered with blue tape
              fuse - hunting match

              blasting is the beginning
              1. The leader of the Redskins
                The leader of the Redskins 10 January 2021 09: 30
                0
                We had a "schweiler" from the power kit of some fighter's skeleton and a very large rasp. In a vice and in turn)))
                And the rest is all right. Only the fuse is more often made of nitrate paper.
                1. kytx
                  kytx 10 January 2021 11: 37
                  +1
                  File for a long time :)
                2. restless
                  restless 18 January 2021 15: 55
                  +1
                  There is also a very good mixture - aluminum powder, manganese, saltpeter, match heads and magnesium, you fill a gas cartridge from a siphon with this mixture. The wicks were made from tubes from the rod, filled with match sulfur and put on plasticine to the opening of the spray can, the wicks burn even under water and tear the balloon very hard, an army explosion is not near the bag ...
      3. Ua3qhp
        Ua3qhp 9 January 2021 10: 45
        +3
        From my point of view, in the first picture, the arrows are holding their hook holders incorrectly. A more likely way is shown in the second figure, arrow number 7.
      4. Catfish
        Catfish 9 January 2021 13: 44
        +7
        Vyacheslav, good day and thanks for the new and excellent article. hi
        Let me joke a little about our "younger brother". smile
        1. kalibr
          9 January 2021 14: 16
          +4
          Eck, you are masterful!
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 9 January 2021 14: 17
            +4
            Out of love for the subject and out of respect for the Author. drinks
        2. Fat
          Fat 9 January 2021 19: 49
          +3
          Father! Greetings, it turned out very well ... But still Mrs. Mnemosyna returns to the Korean "hwacha" ... And where did I get lost? request
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 9 January 2021 20: 15
            +1
            Hi Andrew. drinks
            And where did I get lost?

            Somewhere in the side streets of Seoul, because the path from the tavern to the hotel is thorny and unpredictable. laughing
            Maybe stuck in this park?
            1. Fat
              Fat 9 January 2021 20: 54
              +2
              How Much Metal Is A Doubtful Orgasm? laughing
              And, if mentally .... A wonderful artist (tsa) made this statue. That's wonderful!
              But I wanted to hear other legends. Legends about "hwacha". No matter how they are from "our reality" ...
              Oh, Konstantin, now I will sleep badly until I find out ... Who came up with this statue ... No.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 9 January 2021 21: 20
                +1
                But I wanted to hear other legends. Legends about "hwacha".

                With that to Vic Nick, I prefer the machine gun. smile
                1. Fat
                  Fat 9 January 2021 22: 05
                  +1
                  What system lol I don't like machine guns! Shoot - then everyone is ready ... Zipper and that's it No. And then everything is in working order, at least half a day of work ... I had an RPK with a bar (such as RPKL), God forbid, that some kind of "K" on the march does not fasten the store, kapets to the device, if you don't shake it up .... No, I do not like a machine gun, except when "one machine gun in one hands" wassat
                  The machine gun is not a "slut", he is responsive to affection, and not just "to work" ... crying
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 9 January 2021 22: 20
                    +1
                    What system

                    In my life, I used only three systems, and then in the army: DShKM, SGMT and scouts let me shoot the tape from the RPD. I liked the RPD very much.
                    1. Fat
                      Fat 9 January 2021 23: 00
                      +1
                      Father, no "K" in his right mind when meeting, even nodding, with shooting business, will not trample any of the listed models on the Zarnitsa, unlike the PKK (N or L, there are few differences from AKM). Although they somehow managed to get injured with idle ones and screw up the mechanics. "DB" (c)
                      1. Catfish
                        Catfish 9 January 2021 23: 20
                        +1
                        Well, AKMS is more than familiar to me, a carriage weapon, in three years I shot myself to a stupor.
            2. hohol95
              hohol95 10 January 2021 17: 38
              +1
              Rather, this is one of the compositions from -
              Love Land (Jeju Loveland, Love Land) is an open-air sculpture park on Jeju Island, South Korea. The main theme of the park is sexuality in its various forms. The park features 140 sculptures that show people in various sexual positions. Educational films are shown.

              Recommended for visiting childless couples ...
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 10 January 2021 18: 50
                0
                Hi, Alexey, I think that it will be interesting for "children" couples there. smile
              2. Black lotos
                Black lotos 10 January 2021 23: 09
                0
                Quote: hohol95
                Recommended for visiting childless couples.

                I am sure that "child couples" are interested in seeing the park more than childless.
                140 sculptures in poses ... A visual Indian book.
        3. Black lotos
          Black lotos 10 January 2021 22: 47
          +2
          Quote: Sea Cat
          our "little brother

          Gunpowder is mentioned in the report "On the basics of military affairs", given to Emperor Renzong to his entourage in 1044. There are three recipes.
          Since there is little saltpeter, the process of combustion (and not explosion)
          In September 1126, gunpowder weapons helped the Chinese defending Kaifeng from the Jurchens. In addition to gunpowder arrows, they used "thunder bombs" containing 1-2 kg of weak gunpowder. The explosion of these "bombs" produced a loud bang and smoke, which had a psychological effect on the enemy.
          The Mongols did not stop gunpowder and they also adopted technologies (like the northern neighbors of China-Jurchen)
          The figure shows the development of Khvachka (article material on VO-Khvachkha - the first mass multiple launch rocket system of the Middle Ages). There is a video of a combat reconstruction on YouTube. A very psychological thing.
          in Chinese.
          Let me remind you that Korea and China simultaneously reached technology and exchanged them (by the way, the Koreans were more successful in testing on enemies)
          Koreans have very useful material about gunpowder and technology.

          I understand that not everyone speaks Korean = there are subtitles.
    3. Gato
      Gato 9 January 2021 12: 58
      +1
      Head on a barrel from the Copenhagen Museum

      As a version: the head had no rational meaning, it is something like an image of a god in front of the altar. Well, like, you set fire to the altar-ignition hole and call the god of death. For medieval religious consciousness it is quite likely.
      1. kalibr
        9 January 2021 17: 08
        +2
        Quote: Gato
        As a version: the head had no rational meaning, it is something like an image of a god in front of the altar. Well, like, you set fire to the altar-ignition hole and call the god of death. For medieval religious consciousness it is quite likely.

        What is the god of death for Christians?
        1. Fat
          Fat 9 January 2021 20: 00
          +1
          Well ... why not? Cathars are Albigensians ... well ...
          1. kalibr
            9 January 2021 20: 35
            +1
            Quote: Thick
            Well ... why not? Cathars are Albigensians ... well ...

            They didn't have either. And in Sweden they weren't.
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 9 January 2021 21: 44
            +1
            Because no. Andrey, do you want to speculate about the basic tenets of Albigensianism? Their reasons and their defeat? I'm at your service hi
            1. Fat
              Fat 9 January 2021 22: 20
              +1
              Not once, Sergei, besides, the Cathars (bipolar) are not the "coolest" heretics. I am more interested in earlier sects, for example, Mithraites, they are so mysterious what laughing
              I'm glad about the Cathars ... but it looks like this case has already been discussed at VO. I think I'll figure it out ...
              Although the secrets are delicious there yes Anyway, thanks a lot ...
              PS so this ... there will be questions ... then AHA! Father, I don’t take you by the hand to the "clave" ... drinks hi
              1. Fat
                Fat 9 January 2021 23: 24
                +1
                Sorry, Anton, I reported something. recourse
        2. Gato
          Gato 9 January 2021 20: 46
          0
          What is the god of death for Christians?

          This is almost Scandinavia, in which Christianity was bizarrely mixed with paganism. In addition, if even crossbows at that time were considered a devilish invention, then what about a firearm?
        3. Black lotos
          Black lotos 10 January 2021 22: 49
          0
          Quote: kalibr
          What is the god of death for Christians?

          most likely a leader / king / leader, etc.
          guns are the personification of power and strength. They were given names.
      2. Ua3qhp
        Ua3qhp 9 January 2021 23: 05
        +1
        Rather, the protection of the shooter's eyes, plus a certain prototype of the sight.
    4. astepanov
      astepanov 11 January 2021 16: 44
      0
      Superficial article. And it is clear that the author is not very familiar with gunpowder.
      1. The ancient Chinese and ancient Indian sources should be treated with great caution. Not everything is smooth there, both with dates and with the quality of translation. Often enthusiastic authors write about some kind of oriental sources, which supposedly tell about atomic prehistoric weapons and about flying vehicles powered by atomic energy. These are just examples of low-grade reading.
      2. Neither India nor China have deposits of nitrate. They are very rare in nature and were found, for example, in Chile, and are now developed. In China (as in most countries), there are not deposits, but protrusions of dried saltpeter solutions in places rich in nitrogenous organic matter - for example, near garbage dumps. Yes, if you wish, you can scrape up nitrates there - but with a large admixture of calcium, magnesium, sodium and ammonium salts. For gunpowder, this is absolutely not suitable. It is necessary to recrystallize this muck with the addition of potash. This, in fact, has been done since the Middle Ages, including in Europe, by arranging saltpeter pits filled with waste from slaughterhouses (and even the corpses of soldiers), which have exceeded several years. The soil was washed, the solution was evaporated with the addition of potash and then recrystallized.
      3. Gunpowder is not granulated to make it easier to ignite. He doesn't care whether he is grain or what, the flash point is the same. Gunpowder grains simply burn much faster because the flame penetrates between the grains. A rocket filled with pressed powder pulp will not fly because the powder burns in layers and slowly. In order for the combustion to proceed quickly, a channel is pressed out in the powder, which increases the combustion surface. Such channels also exist in modern solid-propellant rockets. Well, and granulated gunpowder entirely consists of the same channels, and therefore burns out very quickly, and without this artillery is impossible.
      1. Black lotos
        Black lotos 11 January 2021 23: 24
        0
        Quote: astepanov
        2. Neither India nor China have deposits of saltpeter. They are very rare in nature and were found, for example, in Chile, and now developed

        It occurs naturally in the form of the mineral nitrocalite, in the East Indies there is one of the largest deposits, hence the second name - Indian saltpeter.
        1. Black powder (traditional) is a mixture of potash nitrate, sulfur and coal.
        2. Chilean nitrate - sodium nitrate.
        saltpeter from Chile. It was not suitable for making black powder directly, because the latter turned out to be more hygroscopic. Therefore, sodium nitrate was treated with potash and received potassium nitrate
        Saltpeter in Indian / Chinese climates (mandatory, because in cold climates it will take a long time) From a cubic meter of "saltpeter earth" two years ago, about 5 kg of saltpeter was obtained.
        In nature, potassium nitrate is distributed in the form of the mineral nitrocalite. Natural potassium nitrate is formed as a result of the decomposition of nitrogen-containing substances, followed by the binding of slowly released ammonia by nitrobacteria, which is facilitated by moisture and heat, therefore the largest deposits are found in countries with hot climates
        The most famous deposits of potassium nitrate are found in India, Bolivia, Australia, Chile, South Africa, Russia, the USA and Sri Lanka. It is also found in China, Mexico, and other countries.
        Here from the forum of the hitmen they gave a recipe for the time traveler how to organize fast production. Again, everything depends on the climate .... otherwise laborious for the Middle Ages.
        We mix peat and coal in equal proportions, pour everything with underground water. At 20-25 degrees, the exhaust of nitrate is up to 20% in a month
  3. Split
    Split 9 January 2021 07: 06
    +3
    A copy of an old hand barrel 200 mm long and 23 mm caliber was tested. The lead bullet weighed 52 grams, the gunpowder was made according to the recipe of 1380 from six parts of saltpeter, one sulfur and one coal. When firing, this bullet at a distance of 28 meters pierced a board 5 cm thick, and at a distance of 46 m - 2,54 cm, that is, one inch. Naturally, not a single chain mail and not a single shell would have protected the owners of this armor at these distances, if such a bullet had hit them!

    A common misconception. There are enough tests on YouTube that disprove these. The existing armor made of 2,5-3mm steel could cope well with crossbows, and by the way, they excelled that firearm both in accuracy and in range and in kin. energy.
    ZY The same myth that supposedly a firearm led to the disappearance of cuirass and armor in general. the reasons are completely different, also on YouTube there is a lot of information on this issue and not from any conspiracy theorists and flat-brain
    1. kalibr
      9 January 2021 08: 07
      +4
      Quote: Split
      the reasons are completely different

      And what are they? And YouTube ... this is a specific thing. I once showed the arrival of aliens in Penza on Penza TV and even took an interview ... So TV is TV.
      1. Split
        Split 9 January 2021 08: 26
        +4
        Well, the first one that comes to mind is the birch bark channel. I did not notice his delusions and there are many videos on this topic. And tests can be found on many armor, ours are mostly cold test, Western videos can be seen with firearms tests.
        The funny thing is that the widespread cuirasses began after the appearance of firearms and, moreover, it was just that its significant spread! Also, the reason is that crossbows appeared en masse, the training of which did not require many years of training for archers (and England was taught this from the cradle) ... Accordingly, more means of destruction of chain mail armor and armor itself appeared and became widespread, from simple cuirass on the chest, the rest was protected chain mail, up to full armor - who had money for what. A lot of new weapons appeared just against armor, such as hammers, etc. If the firearm succeeded, it would have little or no spread.
        Moreover, the disappearance of armor is associated not with firearms, they just defended them normally, but due to the general collapse of the feudal system and the appearance of regular troops, with cheap firearms, the number of armies increased significantly. And such a horde already demanded much more protection - it gradually began to disappear or remain with certain types of troops. Cuirassiers remained, and in the 1st and 2nd before the appearance of modern body armor, they were also used in assault companies, sappers
        1. kalibr
          9 January 2021 08: 55
          +1
          Quote: Split
          Moreover, the disappearance of armor is not associated with firearms, as they normally defended, but due to the general collapse of the feudal system and the appearance of regular troops, with cheap firearms, the number of armies increased significantly.

          This is difficult to understand at all ...
          1. Split
            Split 9 January 2021 09: 06
            +3
            The feudal lords at that time were a country in the country, they themselves built castles, armed their troops. Those. during the war the Fyodal had to appear, so to speak. Accordingly, the size of the armies was smaller. Industrialization did not allow the mass production of armor, it was required to train knights, etc. When the feudal system began to disintegrate, the kings themselves began to collect the army, train it and arm it. Accordingly, this is not profitable, therefore, a simpler weapon was required, which has a minimum preparation time. Knights and any branch of the military, which had been trained for years, began to simply disappear corny due to the small contribution to the total amount of power. And to utter a crossbow / firearm is trite cheaper, the higher-quality cuirass.
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 January 2021 13: 46
              +2
              When the feudal system began to disintegrate, the kings themselves began to collect the army, train it and arm it. Accordingly, this is not profitable, therefore, a simpler weapon was required, which has a minimum preparation time.

              Don't oversimplify!
              If in the early Middle Ages the first violin in wars was played by the cavalry, more precisely the knight with his "spear". Then all and sundry began to "beat" the first. First, the militias of the cities with halberds. Then the English archers and finally the pikemen (Landsknechts, Swiss battles and Spanish thirds). The crossbow, in principle, could not be a cheap weapon, but the pishchal had an option. Although firearms had a long development and initially played the violin during the siege and defense of fortresses. Gunpowder, in principle, too. The mine gallery under the wall of the adversary was our civilizational All for almost four centuries.
              By the way, even at the turn of the 17th and 18th centuries, the Swedes were bending down Europe with half and half of Fuselers and Pikemen in their shelves.
              Well, the last YouTube is cool, just shoot a remake of normal open-hearth steel N-55 and higher. And if the armor is made of swamp iron, forged by hand by a blacksmith?
              However, many Milanese and others. The armor has a kind of dent, the so-called shooting from a firearm.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 9 January 2021 14: 10
                +2
                in the early middle ages
                Hello, Vlad!
                Became interesting. Please draw the borders of the Middle Ages? Well, in your opinion.
                1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 January 2021 14: 38
                  +4
                  Anton, under what sauce should you give the "early Middle Ages"?
                  I do not have the habit of philosophizing, see the history textbook for 6 with us, today for 7 grade.
                  From the fall of the Roman Empire to the end of the Viking campaigns.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 9 January 2021 14: 40
                    +2
                    I'm not early, I meant, but the Middle Ages in general
                2. Hunter 2
                  Hunter 2 9 January 2021 14: 39
                  +3
                  Greetings Anton! Although I am not Vlad, I can give a definition from the Great Soviet Encyclopedia ...
                  The Middle Ages are conventionally divided into the Early Middle Ages (IV-X centuries), High Middle Ages (XI-XIII centuries) and Late Middle Ages (XIV-XV centuries). The beginning of the Middle Ages is most often considered the fall of the Western Roman Empire in 476.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 9 January 2021 14: 51
                    +2
                    Good afternoon, Alexey!
                    I will mark the boundaries corresponding to my opinion. First half of VI century - first half of XIV century.
                    1. Hunter 2
                      Hunter 2 9 January 2021 14: 54
                      +2
                      Anton laughing Well then, we will have Two Opinions on the branch ... Yours and the Great Soviet Encyclopedia !!! fellow laughing
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 9 January 2021 14: 58
                        +2
                        Remind me of the year of the last reissue of TSB?
                        And, yes, this is not just my opinion.
                      2. Hunter 2
                        Hunter 2 9 January 2021 15: 03
                        +3
                        I have the 2nd edition available from 1949-1960. Many consider it to be the most successful! hi
                      3. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 9 January 2021 15: 18
                        -1
                        60 years have passed. History, like any science, does not stand still. During this time, dozens of new historical disciplines have emerged, from radiocarbon analysis to dendrochronology. I will not say anything about the fact that TSB considers history exclusively from the standpoint of Marxist-Leninist theory ...
                      4. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 10 January 2021 02: 21
                        -1
                        The Middle Ages ended in 1493 when the discovery of the New World became known. In just 50 years, Europe has accomplished as much as 1000 years before that - the Europeans proved in practice the sphericity of the Earth, discovered almost the entire land, swam from California in the west to Japan in the east, the church split into Catholic and Protestant, the army became mercenary and mass, firearms unambiguously began to dominate the battlefield, like the infantry, huge wealth poured into Europe from the New World and Asia in the form of gold, silver, spices, silk, sugar, such unprecedented foods as corn appeared on the table of Europeans , tomato, potato, chocolate, etc.
            2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 January 2021 22: 28
              +1
              Thanks Alexey!
              Anton the Middle Ages is pumped by the industrial revolution in the Netherlands.
        2. Split
          Split 9 January 2021 14: 19
          +1
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          If in the early Middle Ages cavalry played the first violin in wars, or rather a knight with his "spear"

          she played the same role in antiquity, to remember cataphracts, at least, is the first thing that comes to mind. A horse and a rider in full armor, although mainly, depending on the time, chain mail, less often cup armor (the horse was either not armored or a cup-shaped blanket was used).
          Moreover, this type of equestrian armored warrior with a spear, in fact, with different names and variations of armor, reached the 19th century and the main weapon was a spear, and only somewhere when they approached the cuirassiers - they had a firearm as an auxiliary one. But the main function is to accelerate well and break the system.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 January 2021 15: 02
            +3
            Sarmatian armored cavalry appeared before the cataphracts.
            The problem is not a long spear and armor, but tactics, or rather the organization of the battle!
            The organized armies of the republics and policies of the ancient world were dominated by infantry. Where the first violin was played by a citizen with rights and obligations. Rider, separate status and increased commitment. In most of the policies of Hellas, the number of cavalry was comparable to the number of warships.
            The Etruscans have a similar situation in Rome. The exception is nomadic peoples (Scythians and Numidians).
            So the rider, in fact, became a striking force, after the evolution of horse harness and harness. And even then the knights of France and England bent down more than once or twice with the Viking infantry due to the organization of the formation. Does the shield wall look like nothing? Ancient phalanx! Terces, battles and squares of landsknechts are a banal recreation of old ideas in a new way! In an organized state, the infantry rules, before the appearance of firearms, armed with long polearms.
            I can assume that the Hussites were the first to build an army around firearms, but relied on carriage. We also had the era of walk cities.
            By the way, there is an alternative history - the archers of England with their triumph - Agincourt. By the way, the British campaign began with five bombards, until the end of the siege preceding Agincourt there were exactly zero or one of them. Forgotten a little.
            Well, somewhere like that.
            1. Split
              Split 9 January 2021 17: 37
              +1
              I agree!
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              Sarmatian unarmed cavalry appeared before the cataphracts
              But yes, in the east
              But in the west ... I could be wrong. but it seems like the very appearance of the very term "armed" is considered Byzantium 7-9 century and they grew out of cataphract
              and the Klibanarius as more universal, since in Rome, in fact, there were cataphracts, but they were few in number and appeared later, because in rome the infantry was still in charge.

              The infantry, yes, should be organized, but all the same, Rome got good from the nomads with mobile cavalry with bows, surrounded, led disturbing fire
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 January 2021 23: 25
                +2
                Quote: Split
                But yes, in the east
                But in the west ...


                Phew we get up on thin ice, which is west and which is east!
                In short. The Sarmatian heavy cavalry fought against the Scythians in the Northern Black Sea region for four centuries. Moreover, the latter did not disdain with a spear and armor. Then the Roxoans pulled up with four-meter peaks and as one in armor and on horses. They did not disdain the heavy cavalry of the Selekvids, and then Rome hiring the detachments of the Sarmatians and later the Goths in the Alys. In the second and third centuries A.D. Rome clashed with the Persians. They also had heavy cavalry in armor. She became the prototype of the potatoes of Byzantium.
                If we take the habitats of the Sarmatians, Goths and Scythians, no matter how they were not west of Constantinople.
                So it is debatable which is east and which is west.
                1. Split
                  Split 10 January 2021 19: 40
                  0
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  So it's debatable which is east and which is west

                  Well, in principle, yes (s)
                  Well, it's not thin ice, it's more like a jungle for me, I'm an astrophysicist lol
            2. Fat
              Fat 9 January 2021 20: 35
              +1
              Oh, Pan .... As if one "combat manual" was read laughing Thank you!
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 January 2021 23: 09
                +2
                Good night!
                I do not pani, I am Pan's cat. My business is rats and rats! Although I can look at pussies! laughing
        3. Fat
          Fat 9 January 2021 20: 27
          +1
          Father, I support everything, except for the "complexity" of the crossbow. However, before the "invention" of the canister shot ... A self-shot could do "bad things to the enemy" in the hands of, excuse me, almost "civilians" ... And the firearms put an end to the "tank wedges" of heavy cavalry. There are questions here, but only in tactics. Almost obvious .... I don't like the obvious angry
          I am inclined to the conclusions of the author. There is no other "info", OV already scraped off almost everything in short ...
    2. Undecim
      Undecim 9 January 2021 11: 08
      +9
      Obviously Split wants to say that armor has ceased to be used not because of the appearance of firearms as such, but because of their mass distribution, when it became impossible to dress the entire army in bulletproof armor either technically or financially.
      1. Split
        Split 9 January 2021 17: 39
        +2
        Yes, that's exactly what I wanted to convey fellow
  4. Black lotos
    Black lotos 10 January 2021 23: 04
    0
    Quote: Split
    Also, the reason is that crossbows appeared en masse, the training of which did not require many years of training for archers.

    There was a military school for crossbowmen in China.
    Empress Wu Zetian, passed, around 720 AD, a decree that archery for cavalry and infantry should be a compulsory subject for military examinations
    However, crossbows have different designs, and it is harder to study there than with a bow.
    The Chinese tried to keep up with the times. Given the size and number.
  • kalibr
    9 January 2021 08: 10
    +4
    Quote: Split
    The existing armor made of 2,5-3mm steel was quite capable of handling crossbows, and, by the way, they surpassed that firearm both in accuracy and in range and in kin. energy.

    There was a whole series of articles about cuirassier armor. You can look through the profile. You can type a question in a search engine. There were even photos of double cuirasses. Impenetrable ... That's just how to walk in them ...
    1. CTABEP
      CTABEP 9 January 2021 19: 26
      +1
      Walk about like in a class 6a armor. And the parameters of the bullet you specified are very small, it is unlikely to master a steel cuirass of 1.5-2mm at the distance where it pierces 25mm of wood.
      1. Fat
        Fat 10 January 2021 00: 32
        0
        Greetings, Michael. Right, no penetration speech. The cavalry was fully armed to the attack! Clap! said the mattress with stones! And now these are not horsemen, but infantry, even if the "crews" are ready for the further development of mares ... wassat crying
  • Blacksmith 55
    Blacksmith 55 9 January 2021 09: 29
    +3
    Split, the armor I think could cope with such a "bullet" if they were as thick as you write, but wearing them because of their heavy weight was very difficult.
    I saw a transmission like that, they said that the thickness of the armor was no more than 1 mm.
    I think you exaggerated a little from 2,5-3 mm.
    It takes time to calculate how much such armor weighed.
    Perhaps some of the readers know.
    1. Split
      Split 9 January 2021 09: 47
      +2
      Well, they are not on their shoulders. THERE, too, there was something like a modern unloading, which distributes the load to the whole body + the upper element, as it were, rested on the lower one. + more brigantine / under-armor, waist belts, etc.

      In modern buhurts, just full armor of 2,5-3mm is used, of course modern blacksmith steel of the 50xha type, etc. (titanium is 2-3 times more expensive and poor maintainability, so few people use them). And nothing is played.

      I don't remember the exact values, the videos should be reviewed, but as far as I remember, the weight could reach 30 kg. Yes, a modern shooter may have more equipment. It is clear that the medieval knight was less developed, but on the other hand, they learned this from childhood

      ZY I check World of armor periodically. ArmorSmith. So, he not only shows the production, but there were videos for motion tests, how to put on armor, and incl. popular diaper theme lol
      Quote: Blacksmith 55
      I saw a transmission like that, they said that the thickness of the armor was no more than 1 mm
      Massive yes, about 1-1,5mm and usually not full. Although not complete it was possible at will. It all depended on how much money the fighter had. Usually the most critical elements are thicker. The rest are smaller - they were pulled out, stiffeners and bends were made at the edges of the plates, etc.
      1. saigon
        saigon 9 January 2021 13: 47
        +1
        Anatoly since when did you become a blacksmith?
        This is spring steel and also goes for springs and cannot be said to be cheap.
        1. Split
          Split 9 January 2021 14: 00
          +1
          Yes, I messed up a little lol , I did not forge much myself, but I did the loading and other operations. It was about 30hgs, and from 50s knives are made (finally, I am cold about knives). In principle, 50 is forged, but it lends itself to gnarled and even forge welding (but this is inaccurate repeat )
          1. saigon
            saigon 9 January 2021 14: 20
            +3
            The point of forging it in the so-called field conditions of a small forge losing its basic properties, and then restoring its strength by hardening (a very, very good blacksmith is needed) .The armor for sale was made without bothering from 1.5 CT-3 a full set of thicker helmet with 2, polished and that's it stands in the corner and beauty.
            One pepper, a bogurt lover, ordered chain mail from the growers, they made it, it came out strong, but the edge is so heavy.
            1. Split
              Split 9 January 2021 14: 28
              +2
              Well, for what I bought, for what I sell. I focus on armor and the manufacturing process. Recently there an uber cuirass with an overlap was built from 3mm 3-ki in the center it turns out as much as 6mm (less of course, because the sheet is processed). First, cold forging, local fit to hot, including side welts and stiffening ribs (I don't remember what they are scientifically called). Well and, accordingly, hardening and tempering and polishing with a body kit
              Quote: saigon
              however the edge is so heavy
              yes, in the printspe, the current titanium chain mail is lighter, riveting + - the same weight is obtained per surface area
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 January 2021 15: 07
                +4
                Quote: Split
                yes, in the printspe, the current titanium chain mail is lighter, riveting + - the same weight is obtained per surface area


                Titanium in the Middle Ages! drinks smiled.
                Swamp iron on the armor, the swords of the Carolngas which could not be poked, as they bent. lol
                And all this for a herd of cows to equip one knight. But before the battle of the golden spurs, he reigned on the battlefield.
                1. Split
                  Split 9 January 2021 17: 19
                  +2
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  Titanium in the Middle Ages! smiled.

                  wassat drinks well, I mean the buharts
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  it was impossible to poke, as it was bent.

                  And now it is not worth parrying, the edge crumbles, they parried with a flat part or a shield. All this was converted into buckler, stilettos and then into swords / rapiers for agile combat
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  And all this for a herd of cows to equip one knight. But before the battle of the golden spurs, he reigned on the battlefield.

                  Well, cuirassiers did not appear from a good life, with a cuirass only in front, and they were for a frontal strike ... there were always not enough knights. For the rest, the lancers themselves were then invented as the firearms developed, dragoons - for close combat, well, hussars - intelligence. At the end of the era, where in the sederin of the 19th century, we actually renamed them into Dranun (emnip what )
                  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 January 2021 19: 24
                    +1
                    Quote: Split
                    Well, cuirassiers did not appear from a good life, with a cuirass only in front, and they were for a frontal strike ... there were always not enough knights. For the rest, the lancers themselves were then invented as the firearms developed, dragoons - for close combat, and the hussars - intelligence.

                    Cuirassiers and Reitars are originally the specificity of weapons and protection. Some are designed to counter cavalry, others to fight against infantry. Cuirassiers of model 1812 are other requirements and other tasks of which only the cuirass had in common with the first.
                    Lancers and hussaria are also initially heavy cavalry. The Polish winged hussars are definitely not intelligence. It was by 1812 that they became light cavalry in the Russian army and acquired the first pikes, and lost the second pikes.
                    Dragoons on the battlefield. They first came out as mounted infantry. In fact, before Paul's reforms, they were. By 1812, the roofing felts became light-heavy, the roofing felts were medium-sized cavalry!
                    This topic is still debated.
                    By the way, in most European countries, the fashion for new things in military affairs was taken not from the countries where it was born, but from the neighbors in a rather “perverted form and sense”!
                    By the way, this applies not only to Europe, overseas also licked a lot during the Civil War. For example zulavov. Yes, now our Rosgvardia does not resemble anything?
    2. Undecim
      Undecim 9 January 2021 10: 43
      +9
      A sheet of steel, one square meter in area and one millimeter thick, weighs approximately 7,8 kilograms.
      1. Blacksmith 55
        Blacksmith 55 9 January 2021 10: 53
        +5
        I dare to assume that you need about 2 sq. m, then all "ammunition" weighs 46 kg. A bit hard in my opinion.
        But thanks for the article. It is interesting to read about the emergence of weapons, and the development thereof.
        By the way, I never read about the fact that the Mongols used firearms during the invasion of the Russian principalities.
    3. kalibr
      9 January 2021 11: 03
      +2
      Quote: Blacksmith 55
      Perhaps some of the readers know.

      Take a look at my profile. There are just a LOT of articles about knights ...
      1. Blacksmith 55
        Blacksmith 55 9 January 2021 12: 37
        +2
        Yes, I read almost everything from you.
        I don't agree on everything, but everyone has their own vision of things, and that's okay.
        1. kalibr
          9 January 2021 13: 45
          +2
          Quote: Blacksmith 55
          I don't agree on everything, but everyone has their own vision of things, and that's okay.

          Without any doubt!
    4. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 9 January 2021 11: 22
      +5
      The area of ​​the human body is equal to the square root of the product of body weight and height divided by 3600. Du Bois formula.
      1. Black lotos
        Black lotos 10 January 2021 23: 17
        0
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        is equal to the square root of the product of body weight and height divided by 3600.

        the smaller the customer, the cheaper.
        And it is faster and lighter than a horse.
        Funny observation. With the development of firearms, there was also a demand for growth. The less, the better the survival rate. In general, this is contrary to the law of nature that if a fight is ahead, then the animals try to appear larger (the cat arches its back, and the person wears a high hat for the military)
  • CTABEP
    CTABEP 9 January 2021 19: 22
    0
    Hard armor holds a firearm (up to a certain limit), soft armor does not. It is logical that 2mm of iron, carried from the body for 6-10cm, is more difficult to break through than a board of 2.5cm, it is generally a very thin board.
  • Tochilka
    Tochilka 9 January 2021 08: 25
    +4
    Bows and crossbows in any case were faster and longer-range than these samophals. Or they could be applied strictly because of the fortress walls. Or it was completely isolated samples. OCD of the early Middle Ages, so to speak.
    1. Split
      Split 9 January 2021 09: 11
      +7
      It's easier to train a crossbow / firearm than an archer. And therefore, when the rate of fire of the firearm increased, it gradually replaced bows, and then crossbows. For 10 peasants without protection with minimal training are an order of magnitude cheaper than an archer who learns almost from childhood or a knight
      1. saigon
        saigon 9 January 2021 14: 06
        +3
        Forgive me, but the first firearms this weapon is still a city dweller but not a peasant.
        Only with the development of crafts in the cities did the revival of the infantry begin.
        Ten peasants with minimal training, forgive me, not infantry, but ten peasants who are not trained enough.
        1. Hunter 2
          Hunter 2 9 January 2021 14: 29
          +3
          Quote: saigon
          Forgive me, but the first firearms this weapon is still a city dweller but not a peasant.
          Only with the development of crafts in the cities did the revival of the infantry begin.
          Ten peasants with minimal training, forgive me, not infantry, but ten peasants who are not trained enough.

          Why do you "apologize" so much hi They wrote everything absolutely right! From the peasants, in fact, as well as from the townspeople - in a short time, you can create a maximum of "militia" (at least equip them with something), and not the Professional Army! But ... with the right command and a certain motivation, it is possible to achieve certain combat capabilities from the "militias", in fact, with firearms, these chances increase ... but create a normal infantryman (without bringing his actions to automatism, through many years of training and participation in real DBs) by handing him a stick-Shooter, it will definitely not work!
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 9 January 2021 15: 07
            +3
            Under Courtraus (1302), this very robust militia piled on professionals so much.
            1. Hunter 2
              Hunter 2 9 January 2021 15: 17
              +3
              This army mainly consisted of a well-trained and well-equipped city militia, essentially the City Militia, organized in guilds. With Excellent Armament! The armament consisted of steel helmets, chain mail, spears, bows, crossbows. Conducted training on an ongoing basis. Many were veterans! Therefore, to call them a classic militia - Definitely not!
              And by the way, the victory was facilitated by the Mediocre command of the French and the Preliminary preparation of the Battlefield - by the Flemings!
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 9 January 2021 18: 25
                +1
                Therefore, to call them a classic militia - Definitely not!
                Well, actually, I didn’t come up with it, it’s an assessment of contemporaries.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 9 January 2021 20: 48
                  0
                  And one moment. 12 years after Courtras, the Scottish burghers surprised the English chivalry very much, right up to the detachment of Scotland.
        2. Split
          Split 9 January 2021 14: 33
          0
          Well, the question of terminology, I mean the commoners so to speak, in fact, the peasants could also be in the militia, it is clear that with the development of technologies, crafts and the formation of the population in cities and the end of feudalism, yes, more about the townspeople. As for chivalry, most of the vassals went on hiring and could even be hired by cities for defense and other matters.
      2. cat Rusich
        cat Rusich 9 January 2021 14: 25
        +3
        Quote: Split
        It's easier to train a crossbow / firearm than an archer. And therefore, when the rate of fire of the firearm increased, it gradually replaced bows, and then crossbows. For 10 peasants without protection with minimal training are an order of magnitude cheaper than an archer who learns almost from childhood or a knight

        My opinion. In defense of the bow ... before the appearance machine gun Maxim - firearm = "firearm" ... I'll try to explain - bayonet - bayonet attack - the "manic" desire of the generals to save ammunition. 10 peasants instead one archer armed with "fire lances". The emphasis in the battle was made on a bayonet attack - they fired in a formation only from the defense (the attackers fired only one volley at close range). About "poorly trained peasants" - "poorly trained peasants" = the militia, which was of little use in the war ... Soldiers, even in the days of match guns, studied for a very long time and persistently - drill training, handling weapons (remember the history of peasants and SVT), news of battle (what to do, what not to do in any case, etc., etc.). About the "bow" - a high-quality bow - a compound bow (in Russia it was called "Tatar"), a complex weapon to manufacture, arrows are not easy to manufacture, but are consumed very quickly. "Simple bow" - longbow - simple in design - just a stick made from the desired Yew tree (but with the desired tree the problem - ends quickly - grows slowly) (you can replace the yew with - elm, hazel, oak, ash, but the quality drops ...). Bow (quality) lost to firearms in ease of manufacture, and with the advent of mass rifled and in performance characteristics.
        1. Black lotos
          Black lotos 10 January 2021 23: 22
          0
          Quote: cat Rusich
          Bow (quality) lost to firearms in ease of manufacture, and with the advent of mass rifled and in performance characteristics.

          preparing a quality bow takes more time than casting (although the production of cannons was a very long process in the beginning - but yew bows take even longer)
          it is akin to preparing material for the construction of quality ships and vessels. If you save some money and cheat, you will get a fleet for a couple of years. Wait a couple of years and the ships will last longer.
          1. cat Rusich
            cat Rusich 10 January 2021 23: 28
            0
            Quote: Black Lotos

            preparing a quality bow takes longer than casting and making cannons.
            Do not forget about the production of "ammunition" for the bow - arrows ...
            Making an arrow is not easy, but in fact disposable - and the bullets for the firearms were cast by the fighter himself, gunpowder was made in factories on a massive scale. soldier
            1. Black lotos
              Black lotos 11 January 2021 23: 30
              0
              Quote: cat Rusich
              bullets for firearms were cast by the fighter himself, gunpowder was made in factories on a massive scale

              honestly, if there was already industrial production of gunpowder, then the casting of bullets was already there.
              And the very casting of bullets was, say, an auxiliary function. It is much easier to prepare even by hand before the battle.
              The arrow technology has been developed since antiquity. Bullet in the Middle Ages. Big difference.
              We do not take high-tech bows / crossbows / arrows and other weapons of increased accuracy for antiquity and the Middle Ages.
      3. Kerensky
        Kerensky 10 January 2021 21: 13
        0
        For 10 peasants without protection with minimal training are an order of magnitude cheaper than an archer who learns almost from childhood

        Here it is ... The peasants calmly handled the hunting bow. And they were ambushed.
        If a roe deer can be removed, then a noble knight can be planted with an arrow in the throat. No special training required
  • Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 9 January 2021 08: 42
    +7
    Very beautiful pictures ! Some of them were honored to be seen at different times in different publications ... but that all at once !? It's a thrill! The warriors with handguns resembling bazookas especially liked! If you shoot a knight point-blank from such a "bazooka", then it will hardly be enough for him! I can’t resist not focusing on the image of a warrior with ... mmm ... with "panzershrek"!
  • Esoteric
    Esoteric 9 January 2021 09: 39
    +3
    Amazing photos. Especially "Chinese Missilemen of the Ming Dynasty." And who only drew such. This misunderstanding will explode, it will bang so that it will not seem enough to anyone. There simply cannot be a safe system of sequential ignition of "missiles". What nonsense.
    1. kalibr
      9 January 2021 11: 04
      +3
      Dmitry, not drawn out of my head. And based on a lot of Chinese miniatures. They just don't look very impressive. Therefore, a drawing is given.
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 9 January 2021 12: 33
      +3
      Quote: Ezoterik
      There simply cannot be a safe system of sequential ignition of "missiles". What nonsense. Not drawn from my head. And based on a lot of Chinese miniatures. They just don't look very impressive. Therefore, a drawing is given.

      Well, the "miniatures" are really quite unimportant "readable"!

      Your doubts deserve attention and consideration!
    3. Black lotos
      Black lotos 10 January 2021 23: 24
      0
      Quote: Ezoterik
      Especially "Chinese Missilemen of the Ming Dynasty." And who only drew such. This misunderstanding will explode, it will bang so that it will not seem enough to anyone. There simply cannot be a safe system of sequential ignition of "missiles". What nonsense.

      look, everything is quite simple. Ignition structures are very simple in nature. If you were a hit, you could become a very valuable weapons specialist
  • Esoteric
    Esoteric 9 January 2021 09: 41
    +7
    “By the way, the“ ancient Chinese record ”, that is, the distance of nine kilometers that the ancient rocket flew, was broken only in the 809th century - with the use of not gunpowder, but liquid fuel, not“ bamboo tubes ”, but refractory steels. to be counted among the most shameless fantasies of "manuals" on rocketry, like the "book of Chin Yao-Tzu", allegedly written in 1045, or the "textbook of rocket science by Cheng Kun Li", allegedly compiled in XNUMX "
    The quote is not mine, but I agree completely.
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 9 January 2021 10: 24
      +5
      Quote: Ezoterik
      “By the way, the“ ancient Chinese record ”, that is, the distance of nine kilometers that the ancient rocket flew, was broken only in the 809th century - with the use of not gunpowder, but liquid fuel, not“ bamboo tubes ”, but refractory steels. to be counted among the most shameless fantasies of "manuals" on rocketry, like the "book of Chin Yao-Tzu", allegedly written in 1045, or the "textbook of rocket science by Cheng Kun Li", allegedly compiled in XNUMX "
      The quote is not mine, but I agree completely.

      In general, I am skeptical about tales of the Chinese, who supposedly invented everything. Modern historians, reading Chinese chronicles and looking at drawings, do not approach them critically, as if they could not write science fiction then, as they do now. The same Leonardo da Vinci left a drawing of a tank, he fantasized and drew a mobile fort protected from all sides, which would move by the muscular power of people inside this fort, and crossbowmen would sit inside. But for some reason, none of the historians says that the tank was first invented in Italy in the 15th century, since everyone understands that this is just an artist's fantasies, as now, for example, they draw about people exploring other planets. The same can be attributed to Chinese drawings, these are all the fantasies of medieval Chinese artists, which modern historians perceive as reality.
      1. Black lotos
        Black lotos 10 January 2021 23: 40
        +1
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        who supposedly invented everything

        well it is accepted so. Although each nation appropriates a lot of things.
        As for the Chinese, they massively recorded a lot for themselves
        It turns out that they also invented the "magic mirror". Few people know that the Japanese are. And the last Japanese master Yamamoto Akihisa is considered the last manufacturer of magic mirrors.
        In general, the Chinese massively convince everyone that everything was invented by them ...
        one can guess that "everything is documented," but it is not always possible to make sure of the authenticity. And they were more than once grabbed on hot.
        And by gunpowder, firearms and missiles, they again convince the whole world that they are from China. Especially the massive information attack matched the successes of the Chinese space program.
  • Sergey Sfiedu
    Sergey Sfiedu 9 January 2021 10: 20
    +7
    Cannon from Loshult., Length 30 cm approx. 1340 BC

    A hand cannon from the Wedelspang castle in Copenhagen. OK. 1400 BC
    1. kalibr
      9 January 2021 11: 11
      +1
      And where did you just dig up the top picture ...
      1. Sergey Sfiedu
        Sergey Sfiedu 10 January 2021 19: 46
        0
        Just read the article and google it.
  • tank66
    tank66 9 January 2021 10: 47
    +4
    The article is straightforward. Thank you very much. And once again I was convinced how the brain of humanity is sharpened precisely on killing their own kind.
    1. Black lotos
      Black lotos 11 January 2021 23: 34
      0
      Quote: tank66
      And once again I was convinced how the brain of mankind is sharpened precisely by killing their own kind.

      evolution of means of attack in nature. Only man was able to evolve further than teeth, legs, claws, etc., otherwise he would not have survived.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 9 January 2021 10: 51
    +5
    The artist who painted the image on the headband has never seen a horse in his life.

    If the artist has decided that the Chinese should ride a pacer, then he should look like this.
    1. kalibr
      9 January 2021 11: 07
      +6
      About this, Viktor Nikolaevich, I don't know anything at all. The drawing was taken from a drawing from Peirce's book. As accurate as possible. Details were checked by miniatures. The horse's gallop was not checked ...
    2. Undecim
      Undecim 9 January 2021 11: 24
      +7
      This means that the artist has a serious gap in his basic knowledge.

      This book contains an entire section on horse anatomy and drawing.
      1. Black lotos
        Black lotos 10 January 2021 23: 46
        0
        Quote: Undecim
        This means that the artist has a serious gap in his basic knowledge.

        he is an artist and so sees.
        Why is it possible to claim the ancients, but not to the modern? lol

        based on a drawing from Pierce's book
        edition can be redrawn?
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 11 January 2021 00: 03
          +2
          he is an artist and so sees
          If the "artist" sees a horse's gait in this way, it is a hack. Even Picasso drew horses correctly, although I can’t dare to call his paintings art.
    3. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 9 January 2021 11: 27
      +3
      I agree. With this arrangement of the limbs, the animal can only amble up and down.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 9 January 2021 11: 55
          +5
          In my opinion, the right limbs.
          1. bubalik
            bubalik 9 January 2021 12: 04
            +11
            ,,,, maybe this drawing is in motion and the front leg did not have time to bend, the right.
            While painters and sculptors recourse
            laughing
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 9 January 2021 12: 16
              +5
              "At Peter the Great,
              There is no one close
              Just a horse and a snake
              That's his whole family "(C)
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 9 January 2021 12: 21
                +3
                "After all, it was you who invented gunpowder,
                And they built the Chinese wall ”(c).
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 9 January 2021 12: 23
                  +6
                  "I walked around the wall,
                  This is a path of three dozen "(C)
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 9 January 2021 12: 30
                    +5
                    "One educated vassal
                    Around the whole castle ... walked around,
                    And wrote in the book of complaints,
                    That I didn't find a toilet. "(C)
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 9 January 2021 12: 33
                      +3
                      "In a public Parisian toilet,
                      There are inscriptions in Russian "(C)
                      1. Catfish
                        Catfish 9 January 2021 12: 41
                        +3
                        Sometimes even very poetic. laughing
                        "May Allah vomit that hell,
                        Who writes nasty things on the walls! "(C)
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 9 January 2021 12: 45
                        +3
                        Just Omar Hayam!
                  2. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 9 January 2021 12: 33
                    +2
                    “Let him scold the president
                    Anything different "(c).
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 9 January 2021 13: 19
                      +2
                      "The king is a tyrant, regardless of whether we are talking about it or not." (C)
                    2. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 9 January 2021 13: 22
                      +2
                      “Having tuned the lute and viola,
                      Let's tell in the gold of September alleys,
                      What a disgust for the throne of kings ”(c).
                    3. Catfish
                      Catfish 9 January 2021 14: 16
                      +2
                      "But whatever you say, marry for love
                      There can be no one, no king! "(C)
                    4. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 9 January 2021 14: 22
                      +2
                      “They bend horseshoes like rolls.
                      And the chains are torn by the movement of the shoulder ”(c).
                    5. Catfish
                      Catfish 9 January 2021 14: 27
                      +2
                      "And if something goes wrong, it's none of our business,
                      As they say - the Motherland ordered!
                      How nice to be innocent of anything
                      A very simple soldier, a soldier ... "(c)
                    6. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 9 January 2021 14: 43
                      +2
                      “And lies on the pole, with his boots to the sun,
                      Our heroic platoon is with a rastak mother "(c).
                    7. Catfish
                      Catfish 9 January 2021 15: 05
                      +3
                      "I won't forget this battle at all,
                      The air is saturated with death "(c)
                    8. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 9 January 2021 15: 53
                      +2
                      "You are the only one, cherished" (c).
                    9. Catfish
                      Catfish 9 January 2021 16: 43
                      +2
                      "Love, hope, quiet glory
                      The deception did not live long for us "(c)
                    10. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 9 January 2021 19: 14
                      +2
                      "Sleep, my joy, sleep" (c).
                    11. Catfish
                      Catfish 9 January 2021 19: 16
                      +4
                      Yes, it's still too early. wink
                    12. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 9 January 2021 20: 18
                      +2
                      Is it never too late to "wake up from sleep"?
                    13. Catfish
                      Catfish 9 January 2021 20: 26
                      +2
                      "And in the morning she smiled again
                      In front of your window, as always "(c)
                    14. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 9 January 2021 20: 28
                      +2
                      "Oh, with a meadow, with a meadow" (c).
                    15. Catfish
                      Catfish 9 January 2021 20: 30
                      +2
                      With a meadow, with a Saban, they steal in the same way.
                    16. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 9 January 2021 20: 52
                      +2
                      "Give a horse to the chieftain" (c).
                    17. Catfish
                      Catfish 9 January 2021 20: 54
                      +2
                      "Gloomy Huns leader Attila" (c)
                    18. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 9 January 2021 20: 55
                      +2
                      "In the pockets of corpses he will fumble,
                      Burn cities, and drive the herd to the church.
                      And fry the meat of the white brothers ”(c).
                    19. Catfish
                      Catfish 9 January 2021 21: 17
                      +2
                      "I am a descendant of Khan Mamai,
                      My horse has not lived for a long time.
                      I sweep behind someone else's trotter
                      The droppings are still warm from the pavement.
                      I got a letter from the housing office
                      There they turned to me for you.
                      They offer Siberia open spaces
                      Instead of Moscow taken in battle. "(C)
                    20. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 9 January 2021 21: 20
                      +1
                      “You will remove snow in Siberia. There is a lot of him "(c).
                    21. Catfish
                      Catfish 9 January 2021 21: 21
                      +2
                      "Look, there is taiga all around you" (c)
                    22. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 9 January 2021 21: 28
                      +2
                      "Back - 500. Forward - 500" (c).
                    23. Catfish
                      Catfish 9 January 2021 21: 35
                      +2
                      "I feel sorry for him humanly ..." (c)
                    24. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 9 January 2021 21: 43
                      +2
                      “And my friend is a gray wolf from Bryansk” (c).
                    25. Catfish
                      Catfish 9 January 2021 22: 15
                      +2
                      "Why I am sitting in conscience I do not know" (c)
                    26. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 10 January 2021 02: 02
                      +2
                      "My fire shines in the fog" (c).
                    27. Catfish
                      Catfish 10 January 2021 12: 27
                      +2
                      "But clairvoyants, like eyewitnesses,
                      People always burned at the stake "(c)
                    28. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 10 January 2021 14: 11
                      +1
                      "The pure truth will triumph over time" (c).
                    29. Catfish
                      Catfish 10 January 2021 14: 35
                      +1
                      "- And the kingdom of truth will come?
                      “It will come, hegemon,” Yeshua answered with conviction.
                      - It will never come! - suddenly shouted Pilate so terrible
                      voice that Yeshua recoiled. "(from)
                    30. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 10 January 2021 15: 21
                      +1
                      “What strange ideas
                      In this wild Judea? " (from).
                    31. Catfish
                      Catfish 10 January 2021 15: 37
                      +1
                      "Let's get to the Red Sea! Let's get to the Red Sea
                      And we will conquer Hindustan! "(C)
                    32. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 10 January 2021 16: 45
                      +1
                      "And the Green Sea does not exist" (c).
                    33. Catfish
                      Catfish 10 January 2021 16: 51
                      +1
                      "Blue sea, white ship, I will go to the Far East.
                      In the Far East, the guns are silent, young boys miss girls,
                      They don't whine, they don't grumble, they keep the materiel in order and knock on dominoes ... "(c)
                    34. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 10 January 2021 17: 49
                      +1
                      "And they finished their campaign in the Pacific Ocean" (c).
                    35. Catfish
                      Catfish 10 January 2021 18: 51
                      +1
                      "And we are all ordinary guys and it is not for nothing that we are strong!" (C) soldier
                    36. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 10 January 2021 19: 04
                      +1
                      "And there are no bitter regrets" (c).
                    37. Catfish
                      Catfish 10 January 2021 19: 27
                      +1
                      "Our plane took off,
                      Dreary heather pressed to the ground,
                      The co-pilot waved his hand
                      To this uncomfortable shore. "(C)
                    38. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 10 January 2021 19: 43
                      +1
                      "The commander with the navigator will remember the old motive" (c).
                    39. Catfish
                      Catfish 10 January 2021 19: 52
                      +1
                      "Oh full of passion, inspiration,
                      Long abandoned motive! "(C)
                    40. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 10 January 2021 20: 56
                      +1
                      "Open the gate on the sly" (c).
                    41. Catfish
                      Catfish 10 January 2021 21: 05
                      +1
                      "The night breathed with the delight of voluptuousness,
                      Full of obscure thoughts and awe "(c)
                    42. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 10 January 2021 21: 17
                      +1
                      "Cursed thoughts" (c).
                    43. Catfish
                      Catfish 10 January 2021 21: 26
                      +1
                      "The cattle cannot be turned back and there is nothing to grieve about" (c)
                    44. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 10 January 2021 22: 07
                      0
                      "Ah, Alexander Sergeevich, dear" (c).
                    45. Catfish
                      Catfish 10 January 2021 22: 11
                      +1
                      "Having crossed the Anichkov bridge,
                      Leaning backwards on granite,
                      Alexander Sergeich Pushkin himself
                      With Monsieur Onegin stands "(c)
                    46. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 10 January 2021 22: 14
                      +1
                      “Sasha was good.
                      And Lermontov was on the shoulder for Sasha "(c).
                    47. Catfish
                      Catfish 10 January 2021 22: 19
                      +1
                      "And so I became good - I did not recognize myself" (c)
                    48. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 10 January 2021 22: 54
                      +1
                      “Immediately my mother would say:
                      - Well done, you son! " (from).
                    49. Catfish
                      Catfish 10 January 2021 23: 08
                      +1
                      "Little son came to his father, and asked the little one:
                      - What is good and what is bad? "(C)
                    50. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 11 January 2021 07: 10
                      0
                      “We must, we must wash
                      In the mornings and evenings "(c).
                    51. Catfish
                      Catfish 11 January 2021 13: 46
                      +1
                      "While the goblin was shaving, the ghoul disappeared" (c)
                    52. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 11 January 2021 15: 29
                      +1
                      "The man's beard decorates" (c).
                    53. Catfish
                      Catfish 11 January 2021 15: 33
                      +1
                      "... Like a pirate brig without sails,
                      Terrible these days, awful these days
                      Look like a man without a mustache "(c)
                    54. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 11 January 2021 19: 18
                      +1
                      "And captains with mustaches -
                      Like ships with sails ”(c).

                      Novella Matveeva. Are these different songs? Or different variations?
                    55. Catfish
                      Catfish 11 January 2021 19: 29
                      +1
                      "And the captain is calm as always, it's not evening yet, it's not evening yet ,,," (c)

                      The songs are different, I have them performed by the Japanese group "Royal Knights", they toured here in the seventies. Their chief of the ensemble brilliantly knew Russian, he sang about the "mustache", and in the team there was a big mustachioed man, completely different from the Japanese, his name was John Sasaki, and he sang along in bass.
                    56. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 11 January 2021 20: 33
                      +1
                      “He smokes a pipe,
                      Drinks the strongest ale
                      And he loves a girl from Nagasaki "(c).
                    57. Sling cutter
                      Sling cutter 11 January 2021 20: 37
                      +4
                      Quote: Korsar4
                      “He smokes a pipe,
                      Drinks the strongest ale
                      And he loves a girl from Nagasaki "(c).

                      No, it's grandma who smokes a pipe
                    58. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 11 January 2021 20: 38
                      +2
                      "Grandmother next to grandfather
                      Again the bride and groom ”(c).
                    59. Sling cutter
                      Sling cutter 11 January 2021 21: 11
                      +6
                      Quote: Korsar4
                      "Grandmother next to grandfather
                      Again the bride and groom ”(c).

                      A very beautiful union of "sword" and "plowshare" good
                      You have here on the East. the branch is quiet and calm, beauty and soulfulnessgood drinks
                    60. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 11 January 2021 21: 14
                      +1
                      It's okay to choose comfortable places to live.

                      At Rasteryaev, "St. George's Ribbon" and "Russian Road" are chilled to the bone.
                    61. Sling cutter
                      Sling cutter 11 January 2021 21: 21
                      +3
                      Quote: Korsar4
                      At Rasteryaev, "St. George's Ribbon" and "Russian Road" are chilled to the bone.

                      Yeah, I was at the presentation, but I was simply chopped off by "Clothes" and "Daisies"

                    62. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 11 January 2021 22: 12
                      +1
                      Didn't hear it live. The guy has something to say.
          2. Catfish
            Catfish 11 January 2021 20: 38
            +1
            "In the midst of the dance, four Papuascans are dancing belly before him,
            And he laughs, does not want to look at them, he was captivated by someone's beauty "(c)

            I can’t, food and myself laugh at these songs. laughing
          3. Korsar4
            Korsar4 11 January 2021 20: 50
            +1
            "Chunga-Changa - the blue sky" (c).
          4. Catfish
            Catfish 11 January 2021 20: 53
            +1
            "One morning early lay under a banana
            Miss Mary, Titi-Miti and the parrot Keke "(c)
          5. Korsar4
            Korsar4 11 January 2021 21: 11
            +1
            "Ah, Mary, Mary, Mary
            From Maryland "(c).
          6. Catfish
            Catfish 11 January 2021 22: 45
            +1
            "A shot rang out, Mary staggered" (c)
          7. Korsar4
            Korsar4 11 January 2021 22: 56
            +1
            “And again shakes, shakes
            The wind bully the lights overhead ”(c).
          8. Catfish
            Catfish 11 January 2021 23: 01
            +1
            "Night, street, lantern, pharmacy,
            Senseless and dim light. "(C)
          9. Korsar4
            Korsar4 11 January 2021 23: 28
            +1
            “A beggar stuck to me ....
            Follows on the heels, like a friend "(c).
          10. Catfish
            Catfish 11 January 2021 23: 40
            +1
            "In the cemetery, the wind whistles,
            Forty degrees frost
            There is some beggar d ... prowling,
            Grabbed his diarrhea "(c)
          11. Korsar4
            Korsar4 12 January 2021 04: 46
            +1
            "Do not freeze me" (c).
          12. Catfish
            Catfish 12 January 2021 12: 46
            +1
            "Coachman, don't drive horses ..." (c)
          13. Korsar4
            Korsar4 12 January 2021 14: 07
            +1
            “And throws from the roof
            Cherry pits
            A very indecent citizen "(c).
          14. Catfish
            Catfish 12 January 2021 14: 52
            +1
            "I drank birch sap in the spring forest" (c)
          15. Korsar4
            Korsar4 12 January 2021 18: 17
            +1
            "I love when birches rustle,
            When the leaves fall from the birches.
            I listen - and tears come
            On eyes weaned from tears "(c).
          16. Catfish
            Catfish 12 January 2021 18: 50
            +2
            "On the cheek, a tear began to roll
            And fell into a felt boot "(c)
          17. Korsar4
            Korsar4 12 January 2021 19: 51
            +1
            “Let me take off your boots as a keepsake.
            We still have to advance ”(c).
          18. Catfish
            Catfish 12 January 2021 20: 03
            +2
            "And I tore a fashionable bra with my teeth" (c)
          19. Korsar4
            Korsar4 12 January 2021 20: 05
            +1
            "Nothing will happen to me for my sins" (c).
          20. Catfish
            Catfish 12 January 2021 20: 12
            +1
            "You will not sin - you will not repent" (c)
          21. Korsar4
            Korsar4 12 January 2021 22: 30
            +1
            "The best poetry is silence" (c).
          22. Catfish
            Catfish 12 January 2021 23: 08
            +1
            "And all around there is silence, only wind and snow" (c)
          23. Korsar4
            Korsar4 12 January 2021 23: 21
            +1
            "Autumn is quietly changing
            Long polar winter "(c).
          24. Catfish
            Catfish 12 January 2021 23: 23
            +1
            "Dark night, only the wind hums in the wires,
            Only bullets whistle across the steppe "(c)
          25. Korsar4
            Korsar4 13 January 2021 01: 24
            +1
            'Here the bullet flew by and, - aha "(c).
          26. Catfish
            Catfish 13 January 2021 01: 29
            +1
            "It's not scary to lie under the bullets dead,
            It is not bitter to be left homeless,
            And we will save you, Russian speech,
            Great Russian word. "(C)
          27. Korsar4
            Korsar4 13 January 2021 06: 25
            +1
            -'Sharp eye,
            - sharp canine,
            - a sharp word "(c).
          28. Catfish
            Catfish 13 January 2021 06: 28
            +2
            "He took a checker, he took a sharp
            And stabbed himself to death
            Fun conversation ... "(c)
          29. Korsar4
            Korsar4 13 January 2021 06: 30
            +1
            "Only a Cossack bullet
            In the steppe he will catch up ”(c).
          30. Catfish
            Catfish 13 January 2021 06: 58
            +1
            "A good horse is more important to the Cossack" (c)
          31. Korsar4
            Korsar4 13 January 2021 07: 08
            +1
            "We will be lost for a penny,
            Life is our penny "(c).
          32. Catfish
            Catfish 13 January 2021 07: 18
            +1
            "Nature is a fool, life is a penny, fate is a turkey" (c)
          33. Korsar4
            Korsar4 13 January 2021 20: 23
            +1
            “Couldn't understand at this moment bloody:
            To which he raised his hand ”(c).
          34. Catfish
            Catfish 14 January 2021 11: 18
            +1
            "Yes, he, you see, was shot, did not immediately believe me
            And on a stone-pebble long planted "(c)
          35. Korsar4
            Korsar4 14 January 2021 22: 57
            +2
            “And pebbles, and pebbles,
            And the river runs along the pebbles ”(c).
          36. Catfish
            Catfish 21 January 2021 20: 10
            +1
            "And on a log, brick by brick, they dismantled the Kazan prison" (c)

            (True, I'm not entirely sure what Kazansky is) request
          37. Korsar4
            Korsar4 22 January 2021 06: 29
            +1
            "To the ground, and then" (c).
          38. Catfish
            Catfish 22 January 2021 14: 24
            +1
            "Who was nobody, he became completely" (S. almost) laughing
          39. Korsar4
            Korsar4 22 January 2021 16: 54
            +2
            “Agree, at least, to heaven in a hut,
            If someone took over with the palace ”(c).
          40. Catfish
            Catfish 22 January 2021 17: 31
            +1
            "There is a hut on the mountain, and my grandmother lives in it.
            Oh, and a harmful old woman, she does not give her granddaughter in marriage "(c)
          41. Korsar4
            Korsar4 22 January 2021 18: 47
            +2
            "And under the mountain - cherry" (c).
          42. Catfish
            Catfish 22 January 2021 19: 07
            +1
            "The lady in the garden tore a berry" (c)
          43. Korsar4
            Korsar4 22 January 2021 19: 35
            +2
            "And behind her Ivanko yak periwinkle twists" (c).
          44. Catfish
            Catfish 22 January 2021 19: 49
            +1
            "The Cossack rode through the valleys, through the Manchurian region" (c)
          45. Korsar4
            Korsar4 22 January 2021 20: 41
            +2
            “A tramp approaches Baikal” (c).
          46. Catfish
            Catfish 22 January 2021 21: 08
            +1
            "Not tramps, not drunkards, at the table of the seven seas,
            You sing, you sing the glory of my woman! "(C)
          47. Korsar4
            Korsar4 22 January 2021 21: 31
            +2
            "On the river, on the river
            On that shore "(c).
          48. Catfish
            Catfish 22 January 2021 21: 48
            +1
            "A milkmaid came to the bank of the Danube,
            Threw a boot into the water "(S. almost)
          49. Korsar4
            Korsar4 22 January 2021 22: 09
            +2
            “And tomorrow is Saturday -
            Reception at cows "(c).
          50. Catfish
            Catfish 22 January 2021 23: 27
            +1
            "Today I am eager to
            I will dispose of my Saturday "(c)
          51. Korsar4
            Korsar4 22 January 2021 23: 32
            +2
            “For a hundred rubles - I agree.
            If more - with a friend in half ”(c).
          52. Catfish
            Catfish 22 January 2021 23: 34
            +1
            "And if there is one joy for everyone, then there is one trouble" (c)
          53. Korsar4
            Korsar4 22 January 2021 23: 40
            +2
            "Long road" (c).
          54. Catfish
            Catfish 23 January 2021 00: 09
            +2
            "And the night was dark" (c)
          55. Korsar4
            Korsar4 23 January 2021 00: 17
            +2
            "And on the asphalt - heels" (c).
          56. Catfish
            Catfish 23 January 2021 15: 48
            +2
            "CA is minting step" (c)
          57. Korsar4
            Korsar4 23 January 2021 18: 57
            +2
            “Take us to the gate,
            Comrade Petty Officer "(c).
          58. Catfish
            Catfish 23 January 2021 19: 06
            +1
            "A month later he got married, our comrade petty officer" (c)
          59. Korsar4
            Korsar4 23 January 2021 20: 13
            +2
            "Senior Krupennikov emptied my flask" (c).
          60. Catfish
            Catfish 23 January 2021 20: 23
            +1
            "The last glass on the road" (c)
          61. Korsar4
            Korsar4 23 January 2021 20: 32
            +1
            "For those who are at sea" (c).
          62. Catfish
            Catfish 23 January 2021 21: 34
            +1
            "Ah, the sea in Gagra, who visited,
            He will never forget "(c)
          63. Korsar4
            Korsar4 23 January 2021 21: 42
            +2
            "This is never repeated" (c).
          64. Catfish
            Catfish 23 January 2021 22: 01
            +1
            "And everything ends, ends, ends,
            The lanterns are still swinging on the platform ... "(c)
          65. Korsar4
            Korsar4 23 January 2021 22: 19
            +2
            "Stranger, stranger: hello and goodbye" (c).
          66. Catfish
            Catfish 23 January 2021 22: 34
            +1
            "Let's sing, friends, because tomorrow we will go camping
            Let's go into the predawn fog "(c)
          67. Korsar4
            Korsar4 23 January 2021 22: 59
            +2
            "Raise your glasses goodbye" (c).
          68. Catfish
            Catfish 23 January 2021 23: 33
            +1
            "I will drink Knit wine without mixing it with water,
            So I would walk until the morning with a young heterosexual "(c)
          69. Korsar4
            Korsar4 23 January 2021 23: 58
            +2
            “And send the patricians home,
            Envying Mark drunk "(c).
          70. Catfish
            Catfish 24 January 2021 00: 51
            +1
            "Oh, where I was yesterday, I don't remember now,
            I only remember about the walls with wallpaper,
            And the mistress was, and her friend,
            Kissing in the kitchen with both "(c)
          71. Korsar4
            Korsar4 24 January 2021 01: 02
            +2
            "And now they took away the silver strings" (c).
          72. Catfish
            Catfish 24 January 2021 01: 55
            +1
            "Talk to me, seven-string friend" (c)
          73. Korsar4
            Korsar4 24 January 2021 06: 10
            +2
            "Sit down. I am glad to see you "(c).
          74. Catfish
            Catfish 24 January 2021 16: 05
            +1
            "When the bailiff says" sit down ", it is somehow uncomfortable to stand" (c)
          75. Korsar4
            Korsar4 24 January 2021 18: 07
            +1
            “And even if you walk there -
            You are still sitting ”(c).
          76. Catfish
            Catfish 24 January 2021 18: 39
            +1
            "We have been preparing an escape for three years,
            We saved three tons of grubs,
            And even gave us a ladle with him
            One awfully cute criminal "(c)
          77. Korsar4
            Korsar4 24 January 2021 19: 29
            +1
            @ We have learned to darn the sails
            And close the holes with bodies ”(c).
          78. Catfish
            Catfish 24 January 2021 19: 39
            +1
            "Black brig, gunfire thunders,
            Gold rings in my pockets "(c)
          79. Korsar4
            Korsar4 24 January 2021 19: 44
            +1
            “Something glory?
            A bright patch on the singer's shabby rags ”(c).
          80. Catfish
            Catfish 24 January 2021 20: 41
            +1
            "Sing, swallow, sing
            Sing don't be silent "(c)
          81. Korsar4
            Korsar4 24 January 2021 20: 44
            +1
            "The canary sings plaintively" (c).
          82. Catfish
            Catfish 24 January 2021 21: 33
            +1
            "Black crow, that you are hovering over my head" (c)
          83. Korsar4
            Korsar4 24 January 2021 21: 50
            +1
            “I didn't sleep much when I was small” (c).
          84. Catfish
            Catfish 24 January 2021 23: 00
            +1
            "There, beyond the river, the girls are singing,
            The good young man is not allowed to sleep "(c)
          85. Korsar4
            Korsar4 25 January 2021 00: 07
            +1
            "A hundred young soldiers from the Budennovsk troops" (c).
          86. Catfish
            Catfish 25 January 2021 01: 00
            +1
            "Three hundred equestrian reitars stood in a monastery to a hundred nuns" (c)
          87. Korsar4
            Korsar4 25 January 2021 01: 33
            +1
            "There will also be trumpeters" (c).
          88. Catfish
            Catfish 25 January 2021 03: 16
            +1
            "Among them was a young drummer" (c)
          89. Korsar4
            Korsar4 25 January 2021 07: 55
            +1
            "Shouldn't I sing a love song?" (from).
          90. Catfish
            Catfish 25 January 2021 16: 35
            +1
            "Don't talk about love, I won't believe,
            I have already done your past "(c)
          91. Korsar4
            Korsar4 25 January 2021 18: 31
            +1
            "Either a buffalo, or a bull, or a tour" (c).
          92. Catfish
            Catfish 25 January 2021 18: 46
            +1
            "Love is evil, you will love a goat" (c)
          93. Korsar4
            Korsar4 25 January 2021 18: 55
            +1
            “There was a ban even in the forest:
            To release from the territory of the reserve
            The scapegoat "(c).
          94. Catfish
            Catfish 25 January 2021 19: 08
            +1
            "Quiet in the forest, but the badger does not sleep" (c)
          95. Korsar4
            Korsar4 25 January 2021 19: 39
            +1
            “You will read this tale
            Quiet, quiet, quiet "(c).
          96. Catfish
            Catfish 25 January 2021 19: 49
            +1
            "This is just a saying - a fairy tale ahead" (c)
          97. Korsar4
            Korsar4 25 January 2021 19: 52
            +1
            “My method is simple:
            I don’t like to pull the cat by the tail ”(c).
          98. Catfish
            Catfish 25 January 2021 20: 37
            +1
            "In that entrance, as in the estate, a black cat lives! (C)
          99. Korsar4
            Korsar4 25 January 2021 21: 22
            +1
            “The cat caught mice and rats.
            The rabbit gnawed on a cabbage leaf "(c).
          100. Catfish
            Catfish 25 January 2021 22: 03
            +1
            "Once upon a time there was a rat
            In the seaport of Valparaiso "(c)
          101. Korsar4
            Korsar4 26 January 2021 03: 53
            +1
            "And sisters and brothers
            They play mouse and mouse with him ”(c).
          102. Catfish
            Catfish 26 January 2021 06: 43
            +1
            "Hush, mice, the cat is on the roof!" (C)
          103. Korsar4
            Korsar4 26 January 2021 06: 54
            +1
            "A small thunder offended the clouds" (c).
          104. Catfish
            Catfish 26 January 2021 06: 58
            +1
            "Thunder has thundered, isolation is in progress, the provincial search is sending telegrams" (c)
          105. Korsar4
            Korsar4 26 January 2021 07: 09
            +1
            "Not receiving an answer, Benya got angry" (c).
          106. Catfish
            Catfish 26 January 2021 07: 30
            +1
            "To any of your questions, our simple answer
            We have Maxim, but you don't have it "(c)
          107. Korsar4
            Korsar4 26 January 2021 07: 48
            +1
            "On the other side of the river, the poor old fisherman Timofey" (c).
          108. Catfish
            Catfish 26 January 2021 08: 04
            +1
            "You and I are two banks at the same river" (c)
          109. Korsar4
            Korsar4 26 January 2021 08: 06
            +1
            “And on the other side, forget-me-nots bloom” (c).
          110. Catfish
            Catfish 26 January 2021 08: 31
            +1
            "On the shore of the desert waves, he stood full of great thoughts" (c)
          111. Korsar4
            Korsar4 26 January 2021 08: 34
            +1
            "Cursed thoughts, hidden thoughts" (c).
          112. Catfish
            Catfish 26 January 2021 08: 44
            +1
            "I'm sitting behind bars, I'm guessing that thought" (c)
          113. Korsar4
            Korsar4 26 January 2021 13: 21
            +1
            "The sun rises and sets,
            But it is dark in my prison ”(c).
          114. Catfish
            Catfish 26 January 2021 13: 40
            0
            "The sun is whirligig and we are whirligig, which is fanza pushango,
            Kalaula yula-yula, we jumped out the window "(c)

            (Pavlenko "In the East" - Chinese song))))
  • Phil77
    Phil77 24 January 2021 18: 43
    +1
    Quote: Sea Cat
    uncomfortable


    Come on?!
  • Catfish
    Catfish 24 January 2021 18: 47
    +1
    I do not see any connection between the bailiff and the army lieutenant, even though he is serving in counterintelligence.
  • tank66
    tank66 9 January 2021 13: 03
    +3
    I don't know how to put 10000 plus signs drinks
  • Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 9 January 2021 10: 51
    +10
    Very timely and useful article! Vyacheslav, as always, keeps the brand! I would especially like to note the presence of a large number of high-quality images of warriors with "firearms" of that time!
    But where there is praise, there is harm! For a man is weak and envious! Let's talk now about "harm"!
    1. Some time ago, I noticed that the agramadic number of historical sophistication is attributed to the Chinese! They pushed the "gloomy Teutonic geniuses" of the 3rd Reich to the 2nd place! Almost any historical spit falls on the Chinese trail! In addition to the powder tricks described in the article, the Chinese are credited with the invention of engineering mines (land mines) with fuses ... tension, push! Yes, tovarischi! They lured the enemy into a secretly arranged "minefield" and blew it up with the use of not only wicks, but also with the help of grater or flint "fuses"! What is it, huh? There were no normal guns, and the Chinese had already invented flint locks for guns, and, moreover, using match muskets for a long time! And what is interesting ... there are no references that this is described in such and such an ancient document that lies in such and such an archive or storage of such and such a monastery! Usually, "sensation" is mentioned in "manuscripts" written much later than the cherished date, but with a statement that the "chronoper" personally saw the scroll that some monks showed him for 5 seconds and there was mentioned "this" with a date of 200 years back! In general, evidence in the form: "I swear by my mother!"
    As for the dispute about priorities between the Chinese and Indians, here, as in that story ...: "Either he stole, or from him ...."! For example, the famous Chinese kung fu ... But there is historical evidence that "protokungfu" was brought to China by Indian monks along with their religion! Information about the "thunderbolts" of the ancient era is extremely scarce, but the mention of "rocket weapons" is better known! Moreover, this information refers to, approximately, the same period and indicates a Chinese origin, and Indian, and Byzantine ... and Mesopotamia with Sumeria! Go check it out!
    2. Therefore, very soon they began to grain powder. In any case, it is known that in 1421 in the Czech city of Znaimo it was already granulated. However, gunpowder in the form of "pulp" continued to be used centuries later! To have "granular" gunpowder ... it means to have a factory production! Not all regions could afford it .... especially in the Wild West ... East, South, North! And the paths there were very far away! So they ground the "flour" with hand mills from "improvised" materials! Already in those days it was understood that the longer the barrels, the further the bullet flies ... But loading a long-barreled rifle from the muzzle is worse than hemorrhoids! That is why breech-loading ghans got some distribution then, despite the great complexity!
    3. A copy of an old hand barrel 200 mm long and 23 mm caliber was tested. The lead bullet weighed 52 grams, the gunpowder was made according to the recipe of 1380 from six parts of saltpeter, one sulfur and one coal. In fact, in 1380, "handguns" were more often charged with stones, "pieces" of iron, even coins ... than with lead round bullets (!) ... and the "armor-piercing" was different! wink 4 Now it was already possible to set it on fire not with a hot rod, but with a slowly smoldering wick, which turned out to be much more convenient. In fact, the "hot rod" was not forgotten even in the 19th century! You can find a story on the Internet, how one American "businessman" bought a batch of German needle guns (Dreise?) ... built in them "special design" burners and successfully sold such guns in some areas of the "Wild West" where there was a poor supply of cartridges, primers (as in a number of regions of Russian Siberia, where flint was used until the end of the 19th century ... and even at the beginning of the 20th century!) American hunters, having guns with a torch, could themselves "glue" paper cartridges without a primer. ..
    1. kalibr
      9 January 2021 11: 09
      +2
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      You can find on the internet a story about how an American "businessman" bought a batch of German needle guns (Dreise?) ... built in them "special design" burners and successfully sold such guns in some areas of the "Wild West" where there was a poor supply of cartridges, primers (as in a number of regions of Russian Siberia, where flint was used until the end of the 19th century ... and even at the beginning of the 20th century!) American hunters, having guns with a torch, could themselves "glue" paper cartridges without a primer. ..

      Didn't know about it. A link would be nice. Because none of the Americans I know had anything like that.
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 9 January 2021 12: 50
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        A link would be nice.

        But the problem with the link! The statement about a needle gun with a burner and a hot needle instead of a primer was met twice with different wording on "weapon" sites ... But it said, for example, that a discussion participant had met such information on another site, but for some reason did not provide a link ... (hiding the "favorite" source of information? The link was on a remote computer? ...) I can only look for a "secondary" site where I met the information I mentioned ... but you hardly need it!
    2. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 9 January 2021 14: 37
      +1
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      But loading a long-barreled rifle from the muzzle is worse than hemorrhoids!

      I forgot to mention that we are talking about loading with powder pulp! This is in case anyone gets a little confused ... recourse
    3. gsev
      gsev 10 January 2021 05: 43
      +1
      Quote: Nikolaevich I
      that an agramadic number of historical finesse is attributed to the Chinese

      Rather, a lot of facts about the success of the Chinese since ancient times have not been introduced into popular science. For example, more steel was produced in China in the 11-13th centuries than in Great Britain in the 18th century. In China, the bureaucracy regularly neutralized the achievements of Chinese inventors and manufacturers, plunging the country into a period of decline.
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 10 January 2021 08: 38
        0
        Quote: gsev
        many facts about the successes of the Chinese have not been introduced into popular science since ancient times.

        I, in turn, do not at all strive to level all the achievements of the Chinese "chokh"! I remember about paper, paper money, "ancient" rockets and flamethrowers, engineering structures and imperial ships, huge for those times ... But there is also an aspect of Chinese "achievements" that I "touched upon"! There are works by Chinese historians; where interesting inventions are described, but with reference to the fact that they saw the description of this invention in a certain chronicler who once examined an old "manuscript" in a monastery, which has already been destroyed, but this "manuscript was already 200 ... 400 years old! It was not for nothing that I mentioned grated and flint "lighters" from Chinese "antiquity" ... Moreover, the Chinese themselves, centuries after the mentioned date of the appearance of these devices, used match muskets and flint ... without, for example, matches ! .......
    4. Black lotos
      Black lotos 10 January 2021 23: 53
      +1
      And what is interesting ... there are no references that this is described in such and such an ancient document that lies in such and such an archive or storage of such and such a monastery! Usually, "sensation" is mentioned in "manuscripts" written much later than the cherished date, but with a statement that the "chronoper" personally saw the scroll that some monks showed him for 5 seconds and there was mentioned "this" with a date of 200 years back! In general, evidence in the form: "I swear by my mother!

      this is said by those who themselves collected and destroyed their books more than once in their history.
      Those who are skeptical about "I swear by my mother" are right
      But the Chinese are massively convincing everyone of this. Overshadowing everyone in the region (it is quite possible that they themselves adopted a bunch of their inventions from their neighbors, but documented them, and the neighbors disappeared or did not write them down)
      little is heard about the Korean pioneers and the Japanese. And they have everything the same. Only the Chinese are the loudest.
  • ares1988
    ares1988 9 January 2021 11: 02
    +2
    Please tell us: how exactly did the Arabs use gunpowder during the siege of Mecca?
    1. kalibr
      9 January 2021 13: 48
      +1
      Quote: ares1988
      Please tell us: how exactly did the Arabs use gunpowder during the siege of Mecca?

      I do not know. There is a phrase about this in the book by D. Nicolas. And that's all ...
    2. Black lotos
      Black lotos 11 January 2021 00: 09
      +1
      Quote: ares1988
      Please tell us: how exactly did the Arabs use gunpowder during the siege of Mecca?

      The Arabs have known the purification of potash nitrate since at least 1029 (the treatise of the physician Ibn Bakhtawaya "Al-Mukaddimat"), and the first proven use of it for military purposes dates back to 1168. At this time, Firanji from the Kingdom of Jerusalem besieged Fustat (old Cairo), and the vizier Shawar who defended him decided to burn the city so that it would not fall to the enemy. 20 thousand ceramic garnets with incendiary materials were used
      About technology
      Ismail ibn al-Razzaz al-Jazari. Doesn't that name say anything to anyone ... but in vain. Just less promoted than Da Vinci.
      Abu Musa Jabir ibn Hayyan (well, Geber, if it's difficult with the Arabs) described a lot quite well.
      By the way, the firearm did not help the Arabs with the crusaders, as well as the Chinese with the Mongols (only the Koreans managed to implement the campaign with the Japanese)
      So they used explosive shells at the end of the 7th century, during the siege of Mecca.
      They called such weapons differently (in different sources: "moonlight", "iron thunder", "sunbeams")
      In the VIII century. Baghdad scientists thought of distilling oil and got kerosene from it. So the pots bursting with fire were those explosive shells that fell on Mecca.
      The Arabs could add their ingredients to the recipes of the ancients for effect.
      1. ares1988
        ares1988 11 January 2021 06: 10
        0
        Thank you for such a detailed answer. hi
  • Mustachioed Georgian
    Mustachioed Georgian 9 January 2021 11: 19
    +3
    Very exciting reading, we look forward to continuing.
    1. kalibr
      9 January 2021 13: 49
      +3
      Quote: Mustachioed Georgian
      Very exciting reading, we look forward to continuing.

      There will be many ...
  • John22
    John22 9 January 2021 11: 49
    +2
    Pay attention to the first figure at the beginning of the article. Although it is Chinese, it is fundamentally wrong: the "rocket booster" or "incendiary element" is attached to the spear in the opposite direction. In the drawn form, the spear will be decelerated in flight.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 9 January 2021 12: 01
      +3
      It is more of a "grenade launcher" than a rocket booster.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 9 January 2021 12: 45
        +3
        More precisely - "under-barrel flamethrower".
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 9 January 2021 13: 24
        +1
        Well, if the gravel in the nose from such a "fiery spear" will not seem a little!
        However, the Chinese made gunpowder boosters from bamboo for arrows, and they were not mistaken with the direction.
        1. Esoteric
          Esoteric 9 January 2021 14: 07
          +3
          The bamboo powder accelerator is powerful. smile And the straw tail is even stronger as a stabilizer. Oh, these Chinese fairy tales.
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 9 January 2021 12: 46
      +2
      This is not a rocket, but some kind of flamethrower, it does not fly, it is "stationary". smile
    3. kalibr
      9 January 2021 13: 50
      +2
      Quote: John22
      Pay attention to the first figure at the beginning of the article. Although it is Chinese, it is fundamentally wrong: the "rocket booster" or "incendiary element" is attached to the spear in the opposite direction. In the drawn form, the spear will be decelerated in flight.

      That's right! This is a "fiery spear", where the enemy is hit by fire!
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 9 January 2021 18: 05
        0
        where the enemy is hit by fire!

        He is not surprised by anything, it is the horse that is frightened, and the rider flies from it.
        1. kalibr
          9 January 2021 18: 25
          +1
          Quote: Aviator_
          He is not surprised by anything, it is the horse that is frightened, and the rider flies from it.

          The sources say that crushed glass and small stones were added to the charge and all this flew towards the enemy. And the pleasure is not very great with fire and sparks in the face!
          1. Ua3qhp
            Ua3qhp 10 January 2021 09: 16
            0
            But tell me, please, how the rider in the first picture activated his fire spear?
            1. kalibr
              10 January 2021 09: 58
              0
              Quote: Ua3qhp
              But tell me, please, how the rider in the first picture activated his fire spear?

              In one of their engravings, something like a cord sticks out from there. Obviously, before the attack of the servants, these fuses were set on fire and the horsemen rushed to the enemy. The length of the cord was calculated for a certain distance so that the fire from the pipe did not hit immediately ...
              1. Ua3qhp
                Ua3qhp 10 January 2021 10: 41
                0
                Those. Do you need a fuse with a strictly defined burning time, accurate determination of the distance and maintenance of the calculated approach speed? Because if this thing bangs 5 ​​seconds earlier or later than the required time, then there will be a complete zilch.
                1. Ua3qhp
                  Ua3qhp 10 January 2021 12: 22
                  0
                  And the most interesting thing is that this firecracker bangs in front of the nose of its own horse. I do not know about the opponent, but the horse will definitely not be delighted. wink
                  1. Black lotos
                    Black lotos 11 January 2021 00: 19
                    0
                    Quote: Ua3qhp
                    I don’t know about the opponent, but the horse will definitely not be happy

                    like psychological fireworks will do.
                    Imagine an ancient man, a rider rushes at him with a sheaf of fire, sparks ... fascinates and enchants (well, this is for modern us, but it terrifies and frightens)
                    Most likely this is not a combat one (although if I had to compose something like that, I also tried to make a flamethrower effect, strengthening the psychological one)
                    The fiery riders will frighten the unprepared for a long time.
                    But if we make a spear with a charge on the contrary (here the sheaf is in the direction of the attack), then we light it before the start of the gallop and hold it on an outstretched hand. The mixture is ignited and the spear will be snatched from the hands towards the enemy.
                    True, you need the main weapon, but you can't see it in the picture.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 9 January 2021 12: 36
    +1
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    Who illustrated the book by Funkenov?
    1. kalibr
      9 January 2021 13: 50
      +2
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Who illustrated the book by Funkenov?

      They are themselves! Both were excellent draftsmen.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 9 January 2021 13: 56
        +2
        Thank you! However, I have already familiarized myself with their biographies.
  • bubalik
    bubalik 9 January 2021 12: 53
    +3
    However, today the main thing is not known - who, when, and where invented the metal barrel. What is known?

    ,,, Modfa is one of the first examples of hand-held firearms used by the Arabs. According to the history of the Moors in Spain, written by Alfredo Conde, firearms were used during the siege of Zaragoza in 1118, for more than 100 years !!! before the first mention of Chinese and Indian firearms.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 9 January 2021 13: 37
      +3
      Wait, Condé is a fiction writer! Or is there another Conde?
      1. bubalik
        bubalik 9 January 2021 13: 49
        +3
        JA Conde. "Historia de la dominacion de los arabes en Espana, sacada de varies manuscritos in memorias arabigas." T. 1–3, Madrid, 1820–1821 (JA Conde. “History of Arab rule in Spain, written on the basis of various Arabic manuscripts and memoirs.” Vol. 1–3, Madrid, 1820–1821).
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 9 January 2021 13: 53
          +2
          Thank you, I didn’t. good
          1. bubalik
            bubalik 9 January 2021 13: 54
            +3
            ,,, I myself did not know until today laughing In one, V.O is definitely right, his articles make him look for information and learn a lot of new things.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 9 January 2021 14: 01
              +3
              Well, I felt a little ashamed. It seems like I think that the history and culture of Spain is one of my passions, but here it is: alas and ah ... repeat
    2. Black lotos
      Black lotos 11 January 2021 00: 24
      +1
      Quote: bubalik
      more than 100 years !!! before the first mention of Chinese and Indian firearms.

      In the X-XI centuries. Muslims learned how to obtain chemically pure saltpeter and developed an optimal recipe for gunpowder (75% saltpeter, 10% sulfur, 15% coal).
      and already reminded above that
      The Arabs have known the purification of potash nitrate since at least 1029 (treatise of the doctor ibn Bakhtawaya "Al-Mukaddimat")

      that is, earlier than the Chinese. But they describe it in 1044 as gunpowder. And not just saltpeter. And three recipes.
      In general, you can bet on the Arabs. They then took the 2 largest libraries in the world (Baghdad and Alexandria). Well, their scientists were very famous and inventive. Just repeat, less promoted.
  • Denimax
    Denimax 9 January 2021 13: 17
    +5
    In some countries, it seems that muzzle-loading firearms can be bought without any permission, it can even be rifles from the time of the Crimean War. True, for black powder, permission is already needed.
  • tank66
    tank66 9 January 2021 14: 02
    +9
    Not quite "to the cashier." But next to me. I was somehow lucky in my life / I will not generalize, in the rich Russian language it will sound in two ways /. I mean that time when I worked as a "scoop" which was put to sort out the trophies of the operation / sorry gray genitals /, roofing felts of Herat, roofing felts of Lur-Kokh,
    in short. on the territory of Shindant artillery depots 84-85 ... Damn, send me there one more time / for 2 days ..
    4 KAMAZ shooters. and cold ... Fuzei wick inlaid with pearls, li-enfield, sksy with a bayonet, sabers, AK of all bl @. countries and species. Poisoned knives / I'm not lying /.
    And the cherry itself is a type of rocket launcher of 5 kg weighing a single-shot forged priblud of 12,7 mm. I told myself not to, the other half said: there will be no more chances. In short, I shot, tumbled and did not break anything. Sorry, comrades, it flooded. hi
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 9 January 2021 14: 28
      +6
      Don't be embarrassed!
      1. All in the subject.
      2. Here the majority of users are aged 40+
      3. Really lucky! Even "Sea Cat" did not hold such rarities in his hands.
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 9 January 2021 15: 00
    +3
    Well, well, another excellent article, Vyacheslav Olegovich. smile hi
    Interesting, informative, visual - what else do you need? I do not even know... smile
    For me personally, the question of the palm in the invention of both gunpowder itself and the method of its use as a driving force for any projectile has been resolved in favor of Asia. However, it was Europe that managed to take advantage of these inventions, turning them into something that changed the course of history. It happens. request
    Was the firearm the "gravedigger" of heavy armor? I think rather not. Heavy armor, as an attribute of a professional warrior, a knight, began to disappear not because it became useless, but because the knights themselves began to disappear as a phenomenon. And this was happening for purely economic reasons.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 9 January 2021 15: 10
    +2
    gunpowder, which was used by the Arabs as early as 690 during the siege of Mecca.
    I wonder where this information comes from. There are no such references in any sources, including Arab sources, where the siege of Mecca in 692 is described in great detail. But the use of stone throwers is mentioned more than once.
    As for the year 690, there is a mention that the saltpeter was purified.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 9 January 2021 15: 29
      +1
      I have already noticed that some of the facts cited from the works of Nicolas are somewhat far-fetched.
      1. kalibr
        9 January 2021 17: 07
        +1
        What can I say? For many years he worked at the Arab branch of the Air Force in Jordan, traveled all over the Middle East, then defended his master's thesis (I don't remember what), but his doctorate in Oriental culture at the University of Edinburgh. I brought a lot of pictures from the East and then went there more than once. So I must have information.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 9 January 2021 19: 22
          +3
          This information is not found anywhere else, it cannot even be verified.
          Moreover, translations from Chinese and Arabic, then translations of translations of accuracy do not contribute.
          Here you write below that "Alchemists Chin Hua-tung and Qing Xu-tzu, somewhere in 808 or so, also wrote that from sulfur, saltpeter, and powdered kokornik plant, you can get a combustible composition, with your own proportions very similar to gunpowder. "
          Where did you get this information from?
          However, if you take the book Lorge, The Asian Military Revolution: from Gunpowder to the Bomb, then it does not indicate a kokornik, but a completely different plant - birthwort - aristolochia or kirkazon. This plant was widely used in ancient Chinese medicine and alchemy.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. kalibr
            9 January 2021 20: 29
            +1
            Quote: Undecim
            Here you write below that "Alchemists Chin Hua-tung and Qing Xu-tzu, somewhere in 808 or so, also wrote that from sulfur, saltpeter, and powdered kokornik plant, you can get a combustible composition, with your own proportions very similar to gunpowder. "

            This is from my book "Knights of the East" (p. 61), and it was written in 2000 and it is clear that where, what was taken from the ends not to be found. But from somewhere ...
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 9 January 2021 20: 43
              +2
              So you became the author of one of the "factual forks", in the language of evolutionary biology.
              1. kalibr
                9 January 2021 20: 46
                +1
                Quote: Undecim
                So you became the author of one of the "factual forks", in the language of evolutionary biology.

                In 2000, the source was at my fingertips ...
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 9 January 2021 20: 54
                  +2
                  Vyacheslav Olegovich, in this discussion I am completely on the side of Viktor Nikolaevich. In this case, you believe the person, not the facts.
                  1. kalibr
                    9 January 2021 21: 42
                    +2
                    Quote: 3x3zsave
                    Vyacheslav Olegovich, in this discussion I am completely on the side of Viktor Nikolaevich. In this case, you believe the person, not the facts.

                    Anton! I don't remember where I got this material from 20 years ago. Popular book, no links provided. But from somewhere. Maybe this is Nicolas's book, maybe Peirce's - about China. To me, frankly, now it is all the same perfect.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 9 January 2021 21: 53
                      0
                      Vyacheslav Olegovich, I only advocate that such sayings should be presented in a presumptive manner. For there are plenty of grandiose accusers even without us, petty ones.
                      1. kalibr
                        10 January 2021 09: 12
                        +1
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Vyacheslav Olegovich, I only advocate that such sayings should be presented in a presumptive manner.

                        Yes, of course, but if you use a source where it is given "not in the presumptive", then somehow you do not want to be too "careful". You write as in the original. Especially if it is popular material. If it were a scientific article, there would be links to almost every second word and it would be completely impossible to read the text! VO is not a site where "re ..." makes sense. Better "not yet ..."
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 10 January 2021 09: 15
                        +1
                        Nevertheless, in the article about Kofer you succeeded.
                      3. kalibr
                        10 January 2021 15: 50
                        +2
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Nevertheless, in the article about Kofer you succeeded.

                        The article about Kofer was written 20 years after that book. Experience increased. And when I was writing this material, I just took a page from the book, looked at the novelty, and when it exceeded 90%, I inserted it into the text of the article. Why strain yourself again?
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 10 January 2021 16: 02
                        +1
                        Why strain yourself again?
                        Well, at least so that I have nothing to complain about? Nobody but me and VikNik objectively criticizes you.
                      5. kalibr
                        10 January 2021 16: 50
                        +2
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        Why strain yourself again?
                        Well, at least so that I have nothing to complain about? Nobody but me and VikNik objectively criticizes you.

                        That's right!
          3. kalibr
            9 January 2021 21: 45
            +2
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            In this case, you believe the person, not the facts.

            And there are no facts as such. Someone somewhere, wrote something, described ... Something that you can hold on to - in the photo!
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 9 January 2021 22: 03
              +3
              Well, in general, everything is like Brodsky's ...
              "My Telemac. Trojan War,
              Completed. I don't remember who won.
              There must be Greeks ... so many dead
              Only Greeks can leave on the shore "
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 9 January 2021 21: 18
      +2
      By the way, the word "kokornik" can denote plants even from different families. You can't figure it out without Latin.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 9 January 2021 21: 46
        +3
        Give an example of dolichos from families other than legumes. Probably you have confused families with species.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 9 January 2021 21: 52
          +1
          The word "kokornik" is used not only for dolichos, but also for Kupena medicinal and Kirkazon itself.

          Of course, I'm familiar with the kupena and kirkazon.
          And with dolichos, to be honest, no.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 9 January 2021 22: 33
            +3
            Dolichos and kokornik are one and the same. The pharmacy's kupena has nothing to do with this kokornik, these are different families. Folk botanists who use this name only add confusion.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 10 January 2021 02: 08
              +1
              If, for example, the word "cedar" is heard, then it is necessary to clarify: what is meant. It can be of any kind. So it is with other plants.

              What did the Chinese alchemist use there? What do the hieroglyphs of the original source say?
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 9 January 2021 21: 12
    +2
    Viktor Nikolaevich, is there any information which part of the Kirkazon was used?
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 9 January 2021 21: 46
      +3
      I have not seen such information. I think an ancient Chinese alchemist took it with him.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 9 January 2021 21: 55
        +2
        It is interesting to look at the records of the alchemists.
        Ning Xu Tzu is no exception.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 9 January 2021 22: 35
          +5
          It is interesting to look at the records of the alchemists.
          You can take a look. But to understand ...
  • Black lotos
    Black lotos 11 January 2021 00: 29
    0
    Quote: Undecim
    As for the year 690, there is a mention that the saltpeter was purified.

    Yes, they fired stone throwers with fire pots. When dropped, they crack very well.
    Potassium nitrate
    It is a strong oxidizing agent, reacts with combustible materials and reducing agents, actively and often with an explosion during grinding. Mixtures of potassium nitrate with some organic materials are prone to spontaneous combustion.
    You can experiment with oil distillation and saltpeter for equipping pots.
    But the "burning of the shrine" did not happen at the hands of this siege. And ten years before her.
  • seagull
    seagull 9 January 2021 19: 58
    +3
    I read about Chinese bamboo "sticks-shooters" as a child. Having matured a little, he made "samopaly" himself .... Well, the "stone flower" will not come out of the grass ... the maximum "petard" will turn out ...
  • Michael
    Michael 10 January 2021 22: 46
    +1
    Once again I am convinced that the official history is poor and constant.
    1. kalibr
      13 January 2021 15: 41
      0
      Quote: Michael
      Once again I am convinced that the official history is poor and constant.

      But honestly writes where there is no information - "I do not know", not substituting the imagination for facts.
  • Black lotos
    Black lotos 11 January 2021 00: 32
    +2
    It is difficult to say who was the "first" in this competition.
    The Chinese are the most popular.
    Indians are less hyped.
    The Arabs seemed to be promoting themselves, but poorly.
    And everyone has something to say.
    We Europeans alone have achieved much greater success with this mixture than in Asia.
    1. kalibr
      13 January 2021 15: 40
      0
      Quote: Black Lotos
      We Europeans alone have achieved much greater success with this mixture than in Asia.

      But after everyone who was before.
  • Cheerock
    Cheerock 18 January 2021 12: 18
    0
    That's when Mr. Shpakovsky writes articles about the history of weapons, and not about the "bad USSR", then the eyes and brain, straight, rejoice and his hand reaches to bookmark the article good
  • Modun
    Modun April 9 2021 03: 38
    0
    In 1276, there were no Chinese soldiers near the Great Wall of China. All were destroyed by the Mongols