Military Review

Do we need so many needles?

244
The fleet costs money. Not even that. The fleet is worth the sums. Large amounts. In all centuries and times, the navy has been a very expensive attribute, nothing has changed over the past few centuries. Unfortunately.


Unfortunately, because the ships have changed. If the first Russian battleship "Goto Predestinatsiya", created without the participation of foreign specialists after the unsuccessful Prut campaign and the loss of Azov, the ship was sold to the Ottoman Empire and ... dismantled for firewood, today it also costs money to dismantle the ship.

Many specialized forums on the Internet and relevant publications (A "Tsushima" is, for example, two in one) discusses the issue of the disposal of Russian large ships. Exactly large.


Why are we talking about large ships? Everything is simple. Because today Russia is not able to build ships of the destroyer class and above. And with those whom they inherited from the Soviet Union, there are also problems in full.

Let's go through the list of candidates for pins and needles?

Project 1144 heavy nuclear missile cruiser "Admiral Lazarev". Pacific Fleet. In service since 1984, on conservation since 1992. No decision has been made, but information is constantly being circulated that it is inappropriate to restore the ship and it will be disposed of.


Heavy nuclear missile cruiser of project 1144 "Kirov". SF. Since 2002, it is awaiting disposal. The final decision was made only in 2015. It turns out that there was a chance, but "the doctor said - to the morgue ...".


Project 1155 large anti-submarine ship "Admiral Kharlamov". SF. Used (attention!) As a "stationary training ship". In fact - a donor of spare parts and mechanisms. 7000 tons of despondency and hopelessness. On December 2, the flag was lowered on the ship and then only sawing.


Destroyer of project 956 "Burny". Pacific Fleet. In "repair" since 2005 due to the impossibility of repairing turbines for which there are no blades. Reserve of the 3rd category, donor of spare parts.


Destroyer of project 956 "Fearless". Pacific Fleet. In service since 1990, from 1999 it was under repair until 2018, after which the ship was sent for recycling in October 2020.


Destroyer project 956 "Combat". Pacific Fleet. In service since 1986. Since 1998, it has been withdrawn to the reserve due to lack of funds to replace pipes in the main boilers. Sentenced to disposal in October 2020.


Project 956 destroyer "Thundering" ("Unrestrained"). Pacific Fleet. In service since 1991, since 1998 in reserve, awaiting disposal.


Project 956 destroyer "Thundering" ("Leading"). DKBF. In service from 1989 to 2007, awaiting disposal.


Submarine project 945 "Karp". SF. Modernization repairs started in 2013, it was planned to install the UKSK "Caliber-PL". Currently, the work is suspended, the boat is in reserve of the 1st category.


Submarine project 945 "Kostroma". SF. Was in line for modernization, it was planned to install the UKSK "Caliber-PL". The boat is currently in reserve of the 1st category.


Here is a not very pretty list of ships. In fact, it is a detachment that is able to break the woods in any region of the world and become a very big problem for the US AUG.

Especially sorry for the destroyers. Yes, BODs are also useful ships, but BODs are still a "fat-free" destroyer, sharpened for anti-submarine work. And the destroyer is a versatile strike ship. And in all progressing fleets, to which we, unfortunately, do not belong, destroyers rivet so that the rumble is worth it.

USA - 69 destroyers. New ones are being built.
China - 31 destroyers. New ones are being built.
Japan - 39 destroyers. New ones are being built.

And only Russia, which is relatively afloat and has 4 destroyers and 8 BODs, is doing absolutely nothing in this regard.

Although there is always talk of "presence in the far ocean zone". What, excuse me, to be present? Again to entertain the "great maritime" powers such as Venezuela with the opportunity to contemplate the last "Orlan"? The world's largest and most useless non-aircraft carrier?

Now many will begin to grumble and shout, and "Peter the Great" is really useless. One in the sea is not a warrior, and all these tales that he is able to fight in one with an aircraft carrier group are for superpatriots. Although he can fight. There is no chance of winning, since ANY American strike team will simply send this iron to the bottom. As many missiles as 3-4 "Arlie Burke" can fire and a pair of "Ticonderogs" simply cannot repel the cruiser.

And to create a decent escort ... Oh, yes, apart from the above-mentioned ships, we still have two frigates ... Tremors, America ...

And if you look at the summary list of warships that are planned to be built under the current GPV program, then the largest ship there is the Ivan Rogov-class UDC with a displacement of 25 tons.

But the UDC is not a strike ship. This is a universal amphibious assault. To carry out the relevant operations.

But in terms of strike ships, the largest here is the frigate of Project 22350. That is, 5 tons of displacement with all the ensuing consequences.


No, as a warship the frigate of project 22350 is very, very good. But if you take "Sarych" and stuff it with new types of weapons ... More will fit definitely. And it certainly won't be worse.

But the most unpleasant thing on the list is that we will not even be able to build anything like it from it in the coming decades. Yes, the Baltic and Baltic plants, the homeland of the ships of projects 1144 and 1155, could ... If they really could. And the Nikolaev and Zaporozhye factories, alas, are lost. And both shipbuilding enterprises and engine builders. Which complicates the situation. We have where to build ships, but engines ...

However, this is not the first year that everything has been discussed.

It turns out interestingly that we have ships that are going to simply be disposed of, despite the fact that they have not only developed their potential, have not started! What is 7-8 years of service for a Soviet-built ship? Never mind!

Strange, we still cannot bring "Admiral Kuznetsov" into godlike form. And it's not a dock accident, the fact that a large number of equipment and systems did not work on the cruiser is no longer a secret to anyone. The internet helped. That is why they could not fix all this in any way - another question.

"Varyag", which became "Liaoning" and "Gorshkov", which became "Vikramaditya", for some reason serve in their fleets without any special adventures. Although in what state the Ukrainians handed over the Varyag to the Chinese, one should simply keep silent.


And, by the way, since they started talking about the Chinese, aren't the last four "Sarychs" serving them quite well? Yes, they are fresher than those that are standing and waiting for cutting in Russian sedimentation tanks, but not critical. The difference, for example, between an employee "with us" "Admiral Ushakov" and "with them" "Funzhou" is only 6 years old. Is that a lot for a ship of this class?


"Hangzhou". Looks good, better than many.

And the difference between "Admiral Ushakov" and "Thundering", "Restless" and "Fearless" is only two years ... Only two destroyers go under the knife, and one ("Restless") seems to be turned into a museum ...

It is very difficult to understand what the naval command is thinking about at all. All these tales on the forum "ARMY-20 .." about nuclear destroyers of 50 tons and nuclear aircraft carriers of 000 tons, despite the fact that Russia is not able to either build an ocean-class ship larger than a frigate, or service the existing ones.

A fairy tale, of course, can come true if real wizards take on it. However, given the absence of destroyers and higher in the plans, the absence of normal power plants, it all looks somehow very dull. There are no wizards.

So, it is quite possible that it is worth taking another look at the ships that are waiting for cutting. Two heavy cruisers. Four destroyers. “Kharlamov”, as I understand it, can no longer be saved.

Of course, the fact that we are building a mosquito fleet of missile boats powered by Chinese diesels is wonderful. At least something. But the mosquito fleet is the defense of its coastal strip, nothing more.

This means that then there is no need to make loud statements about the "presence of Russia" and "demonstration of the flag" at a great distance. Actually, old ships, created in the Soviet Union, that is, 30 or more years ago, are not the best way to demonstrate the power of the fleet.

And if we are talking about how to really protect their interests, say, in the Pacific Ocean, in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk ...

Although here even ten destroyers will not help. Japan's navy is still more powerful.

And nevertheless, maybe still in intensive care? Maybe five missile boats are better than one old nuclear cruiser with new weapons?
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  1. Lexus
    Lexus 24 December 2020 04: 49
    +49
    You won't go far on the shabby legacy of the Great Soviet Union. Photos ache heart.
    1. Crowe
      Crowe 24 December 2020 05: 21
      +56
      It is very difficult to understand what the naval command is thinking about at all.

      And what about the naval command? How many ships, roughly speaking, will be given to them, so many will be accepted into the fleet with words of gratitude on their lips. They control the budget in other offices, in the same offices, decisions are made whether we need a powerful fleet or not. About the Soviet legacy. soon it will be possible to forget already - ships, like people, are not eternal.
      1. antivirus
        antivirus 24 December 2020 13: 59
        +1
        an owl stretched over a globe - FLIES!
        .................................................. ................. AND CAN AND ROLL ON A PLANE (only the beak interferes a little)
      2. vlad106
        vlad106 25 December 2020 17: 39
        +6
        Quote: Crowe
        It is very difficult to understand what the naval command is thinking about at all.

        And what about the naval command? How many ships, roughly speaking, will be given to them, so many will be accepted into the fleet with words of gratitude on their lips. They control the budget in other offices, in the same offices, decisions are made whether we need a powerful fleet or not. About the Soviet legacy. soon it will be possible to forget already - ships, like people, are not eternal.

        Hmm! And what we just do not have in Russia ...
        There is practically NO electronics
        Precision engineering too. Hardly ever,
        There is practically NO machine-tool building either
        Vocational education, Pharmacology, ... What is NOT
        Even listing is inconvenient. And what exists, in its embryonic state, does not develop in any way.
        I'm probably wrong, you can throw slippers at me ...
        1. mmaxx
          mmaxx 2 January 2021 07: 52
          +1
          There are only whiners. Nothing more. Whining about the same thing 100500 times develops the discussion very strongly.
      3. zenion
        zenion 2 January 2021 16: 21
        +2
        Crowe. A person, if it is unbearable and there is a possibility, can escape. Unfortunately, the ditched ships cannot escape.
    2. YOUR
      YOUR 24 December 2020 06: 14
      +17
      What do we have in return?
      And the photos hurt my heart because they stopped funding and left the ships to rot after they beat the armed forces with a stool.
      1. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 24 December 2020 08: 03
        +17
        Quote: YOUR
        What do we have in return?
        And the photo aches the heart because

        Only a powerful state can afford a powerful fleet.
        1. Alex777
          Alex777 24 December 2020 18: 36
          +9
          Only a powerful state can afford a powerful fleet.

          Or an island (overseas) state, which does not need to defend land lines.
          The same Japan for example. The fleet is needed, and the ground defense is minimal.
          No one has such a land border as Russia. hi
          1. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter 24 December 2020 19: 15
            +7
            Quote: Alex777
            The same Japan for example. The fleet is needed, and the ground defense is minimal.
            No one has such a land border as Russia.

            I agree, as you will agree, that there is no state in the world richer than ours in all types of resources.
            1. Alex777
              Alex777 24 December 2020 19: 58
              +2
              I agree, as you will agree, that there is no state in the world richer than ours in all types of resources.

              Yes. It's like that. We are good with resources.
              This is the only reason why we survived after the 90s.
              "And there are cartridges, but the arrows are beaten ...".
              The population threshold of a great power is 300 million.
              They were in the USSR. And Russia doesn't even dream about it.
              Hence, the strategic task of the States is to prevent Russia, Ukraine and Belarus from reuniting with Kazakhstan.
              It would also be wonderful if Uzbekistan joined. The only CIS country in which the population grew 1,5 times during the period of independence.
              And one by one they derban us without much effort.
              Only the lazy did not scold Kazakhstan for buying reconnaissance aircraft in the States.
              But few people thought, did the RK have a choice?
              The NWF of the Republic of Kazakhstan is in the States. And without this there is no investment. NWF - insurance.
              So we live in a very difficult time.
              And security tasks are complex.
              And not always obvious to non-specialists. hi
              1. Vadim_888
                Vadim_888 25 December 2020 01: 19
                +1
                ... It would also be wonderful if Uzbekistan joined. The only CIS country in which the population grew 1,5 times during the period of independence.

                Following your wonderful logic, it is necessary to immediately unite with Turkey, but what, the population there is 80 lyams and is growing rapidly, there is a developed defense industry and drones are riveting like hot cakes ...
                Are you leading to this?
                That is, our Russian population must continue to be replaced by others?
                1. Alex777
                  Alex777 25 December 2020 09: 38
                  +2
                  Quote: Vadim_888
                  ... It would also be wonderful if Uzbekistan joined. The only CIS country in which the population grew 1,5 times during the period of independence.

                  Following your wonderful logic, you must immediately unite with Turkey ...
                  Are you leading to this?
                  That is, our Russian population must continue to be replaced by others?

                  Where did you see my replacement for the Russian people? Have you come up with it yourself?
                  And Turkey has nothing to do with it. It's about the peoples of the Russian Empire and the USSR.
                  The point is that a territory like ours should be developed and protected.
                  That all the peoples of the USSR made an invaluable contribution to the Great Victory.
                  And, by the way, I have friends in Russia, and in Ukraine, and in Kazakhstan, and in Uzbekistan.
                  The theme "let's throw off the outskirts and the Russian people will live" was thrown to Yeltsin by our enemies from the States.
                  And the prosperity of the States themselves is built, among other things, on attracting talented, able-bodied people from all over the world. You can't even imagine how many Russians from my acquaintances left there. Now, however, some have begun to return. hi
                2. Sergej1972
                  Sergej1972 28 December 2020 20: 46
                  +1
                  In Turkey, as well as in Iran, the birth rate and natural population growth have dropped sharply over the past 20 years. Turkey, for example, has no chance of overtaking the population of Egypt, which was once part of the Ottoman Empire.
                  The Uzbeks and I, unlike the Turks, lived in the same state.
              2. Sergej1972
                Sergej1972 28 December 2020 20: 48
                0
                The United States was already a superpower in the middle of the 20th century, with a population of about 160 million. And, by the way, their share in the production of the most important industrial products on a global scale was much higher than in our time.
                1. Alex777
                  Alex777 28 December 2020 23: 46
                  0
                  And you are right, and the understanding of the threshold population has changed in 70 years. hi
            2. IC
              IC 27 December 2020 03: 56
              +1
              What resources of the 21st century? Major resources in Silicon Valley, etc. And what you meant is to the countries of the 3rd world.
      2. Doccor18
        Doccor18 24 December 2020 09: 36
        +17
        They build something that makes a profit ... And what profit will a destroyer bring to managers?
        USA - 69 destroyers. New ones are being built.
        China - 31 destroyers. New ones are being built.
        Japan - 39 destroyers. New ones are being built.

        And only Russia, which is relatively afloat and has 4 destroyers and 8 BODs, is doing absolutely nothing in this regard.

        What corporations need is being built, and at a fairly decent pace (icebreakers and vessels serving oil platforms, oil tankers, gas carriers, even a new shipyard is being completed for these needs ...). And the Navy has no need for corporations ... Now, if the cruisers were profitable ...
        1. antivirus
          antivirus 24 December 2020 14: 00
          +6
          I agree.
          wrote about it many times.
        2. Proxima
          Proxima 24 December 2020 14: 01
          +7
          Quote: Doccor18
          What corporations need is being built, and at a fairly decent pace (icebreakers and vessels serving oil platforms, oil tankers, gas carriers, even a new shipyard is being completed for these needs ...). And the Navy has no need for corporations ... Now, if the cruisers were profitable ...

          Exactly to the point! I will quote an interesting post from the forum member Yura: “The English analytical agency Clarkson Research has published a rating in which Russia took the second place in the world in shipbuilding. This is a rather unexpected result, since before the top three remained unchanged for a long time: South Korea, China, Japan.
          The first place traditionally went to South Korea: in the third quarter it accounted for 45% of all world shipbuilding. In absolute terms, this is 1,42 million CGT (CGT is a registered ton, a unit of volume equal to 100 cubic feet, that is, 2,83 m³ and the tonnage of all ships is converted into registered tons, so that it is convenient to compare them with each other, and the rating takes into account the tonnage).
          China has traditionally followed South Korea. But this time Russia took the second line of the rating. Over the past three months, the volume of Russian shipbuilding tonnage amounted to 860 thousand CGT. This is 30 thousand registered tons more than that of China, which this time took the third line of the rating"It turns out that we know how to build decent ships and we have the technology and the scientific and technical base and power plants are immediately found.
          1. Doccor18
            Doccor18 24 December 2020 14: 17
            +8
            I will quote an interesting post from the forum member Yura: “The English analytical agency Clarkson Research has published a rating in which Russia took second place in the world in shipbuilding.

            Yes, I read about it. A phenomenal result, against the backdrop of "sluggish naval suffering" ...
          2. g1v2
            g1v2 24 December 2020 22: 53
            +10
            This is actually a manipulation of facts. Almost all of the growth came from the Zvezda shipyard, which Sechin is building. She passed the first Afromax, but it is huge and there is a lot more. However, it must be understood that only the first stage of Zvezda has been built, so while these tankers and suppliers are only assembled there mainly from blocks assembled mainly in Korea. Then we begin to collect blocks at home. This is another couple of years. Then the assembly of nodes will begin at home. Then the acceleration of import substitution of components and so on will begin. Until 27-28, there is still a lot of work and the ships can be considered as completely our product with a stretch - there is a lot of Korean contribution. Well, except that the Leader will probably be mostly ours.
            But in any case, this is a breakthrough for our shipbuilding industry. Zvezda is the ONLY one now our fully modern shipyard, built according to the best world standards - that is, according to Asian ones. The evil Sechin must have built it out of harm.
          3. zenion
            zenion 25 December 2020 16: 53
            0
            Russia is not building, but as we decided earlier, why the hell do we need factories, we will order and buy.
        3. Alex777
          Alex777 24 December 2020 20: 13
          +2
          What corporations need - they are building, and at a fairly decent pace

          I would venture to suggest a different point of view.
          It is much more profitable for corporations to build in the West or East.
          Cheaper and faster goes abroad. yes
          But the authorities forced to develop shipbuilding in Russia.
          Therefore, for example, the Zvezda shipyard is being restored under the supervision of Rosneft.
          Initially, the construction of a civilian line is laid to which it will be possible to add a military one and everything will eventually be at a reasonable price. hi
        4. Xnumx vis
          Xnumx vis 25 December 2020 15: 41
          +2
          Quote: Doccor18
          Now, if the cruisers were profitable ...

          America is brought! And they can bring us. I will not decipher. Smart understands.
        5. tech3030
          tech3030 27 December 2020 20: 09
          0
          America, they make a profit, why not?
      3. arkadiyssk
        arkadiyssk 24 December 2020 09: 57
        +16
        In my opinion, all these stories about "no money" are fairy tales. The country is full of money. None of the listed ships are idle due to lack of money - breakdowns are cheap.
        In fact, there is no key technology or technology that cannot be bought for money.
        The 677 did not swim for money, as soon as the order was transferred to 636, they immediately issued a huge series. In repair-construction: Kuzya is 5 years old, Nakhimov is 5 years old, the Gorshkovs are 6 years old, Shaposhnikov cannot go under the unfortunate Caliber for 4 years - all this, and many other ships of the boat, not for money. Corvettes are built for 5 years, not for money.
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 24 December 2020 19: 31
          +2
          Maybe it's just because they are not engaged in that they are outdated physically and morally - now they are building warships with low-visibility technology and universal launchers.
          1. Alex777
            Alex777 24 December 2020 20: 17
            0
            Our ship repair is in complete failure. For many reasons.
            And the Ukrainians framed, and there were simply no orders - they lost the staff.
            The commander of the Pacific Fleet personally monitored "Shaposhnikov" on a weekly basis.
            Therefore, they completed it more or less. The tension of all forces. hi
          2. Alex777
            Alex777 24 December 2020 20: 57
            0
            Interesting interview about shipbuilding and problems.
            https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4217097.html
    3. pin_code
      pin_code 24 December 2020 06: 57
      +14
      it was possible to leave, even 10-5 years ago. it was necessary to bring to mind the inclined launchers for onyx and hummingbirds, this would save space on the 956x and 1155x for air defense cells and one UKSS for rocket torpedoes. and one could have in the ranks 11 Sarich and 9 Frigates, together with Chabanenko. and this is ... stop ... 20 ships of the 1st rank. the legacy may be shabby, but it could have served for another 15 years. and this is not a little ...
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 24 December 2020 19: 33
        +2
        And along the way, change everything in the ship from radars to wiring and power plant - it's easier to build a new ship in this way.
        1. Alex777
          Alex777 24 December 2020 20: 36
          -4
          it's easier to build a new ship in this way.

          Thanks to Nezalezhnaya - there were no turbines for either the new or the old ships. hi
          Therefore, we have what we have.
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 25 December 2020 14: 59
            +1
            Turbines, engines and gearboxes have already been made - therefore, construction will go faster.
            1. Alex777
              Alex777 25 December 2020 19: 24
              0
              I really hope for it. hi
              I want to finally see 22350M. wink
    4. Civil
      Civil 24 December 2020 07: 05
      +14
      Everything is simple, alas:
      1. To solve any problem with us, people who are going through, turn to the President of the RF. In another way, nothing really works, and it is difficult to imagine caprangs, warrant officers with posters recording a video message "Dear Vladimir Vladimirovich! Please help in a difficult situation with the fleet ... etc."
      2. Well, there is no money for the fleet. It's expensive.
      3. There is no clear strategy for the development of the Black Sea Fleet, BF, Northern Fleet, Pacific Fleet and KF at once.
      What is there to do? Stretch your legs to fit the blanket. Parade and shout about patriotism. Beat the last drum loudly as a combined orchestra.
    5. The comment was deleted.
    6. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 24 December 2020 08: 41
      +5
      Why are we talking about large ships? Everything is simple. Because today Russia is not able to build ships of the destroyer class and above
      Skimmed through the comments. NOT ONE in the style of "and after all, once the aircraft carriers were built ..."
      But if shipyards of neighboring states are mentioned, where there is no oil, gas, diamonds, and so on, but unloaded enterprises remain, then the comments are simply "full of" similar ones!
    7. Fat
      Fat 24 December 2020 16: 14
      +4
      Unfortunately, the legacy, without proper supervision, decays and becomes a burden ...
      Of course - my heart aches, but pragmatism rules.
      Alas for us No.
    8. d1975
      d1975 24 December 2020 17: 11
      +6
      It is possible and necessary to leave if the country was plundered and they steal further on what to do repairs and modernization. We even have a hobby in our village to capitalize on old cars. Yes, people have foreign cars and more than one, but it's nice to see the ideal 2101, 21011, 2016. And nothing can be done here, it would have been the will and desire. Managers do not know how to protect and create, but can only steal. It's really a shame for the state! I have no words ! The country needs a master. hi
  2. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 05: 19
    +8
    So, it is quite possible that it is worth taking another look at the ships that are waiting for cutting. Two heavy cruisers. Four destroyers. “Kharlamov”, as I understand it, can no longer be saved.

    The most striking example, unfortunately not with us, about a closer look: LC type "Iowa".
    1. ZAV69
      ZAV69 24 December 2020 12: 58
      +6
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      The most striking example, unfortunately not with us, about a closer look: LC type "Iowa".

      There, almost all LCs who entered the stand in 40-44 are in the status of museums, afloat. By the way, this is not only Iowa.
  3. Runway
    Runway 24 December 2020 05: 22
    +27
    We utilize "human capital", and we breed "Yaroslavna's cry" about iron.
    Devastation is not in toilets, devastation in heads.
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 24 December 2020 05: 58
      +13
      Devastation at the top begins ... Until there appears an interested person or a group of people with excellent organizational skills aimed at building a new Russian fleet, there will be no sense from the current ministries eating up state money in vain.
      1. 210ox
        210ox 24 December 2020 06: 26
        +12
        Here, rather, on the budget. You can't give out earrings to all the sisters - taxpayers tear their navel. And corruption and theft have not been canceled.
        1. bayard
          bayard 24 December 2020 10: 30
          +21
          Quote: 210ox
          Here, rather, on the budget. You can't give out earrings to all the sisters - taxpayers tear their navel. And corruption and theft have not been canceled.

          If we didn’t burn the budget for various projects such as the "bridge to Sakhalin", pipelines to nowhere, subsidies to oligarchs and the bureaucratic apparatus, there would be enough money for everything. The point is not at all in the "reel", the "wise men" are sitting in the cockpit.
          For 7 years after the coup in Ukraine and practically the beginning of an open war against Russia, no one in the Kremlin bothered ... the sovereignty of their financial system - they paid and are paying tribute to the "winners in the Cold War", utilizing a huge share in the "reserve funds" funds received from the sale of oil, gas, etc. by strengthening the economy of the enemy by selling him rocket engines and titanium for his airliners, burying huge funds in his (enemy's) securities.
          All these bravura speeches about getting up from your knees in a different position and about "strengthening the defense" are lies and fog for the layman. Their dream is to COME TO AGREEMENT with the enemy on the "junior partnership" and "fit" into the Western elite.
          Everything that happened to the Fleet, the Army and the State was done intentionally, as payment for the recognition of the rights of the "elite" to feed from Russia ... But they do not recognize such rights ...
          And they are offended, and therefore they are ready to pay, repent and surrender further and further ...
          Do they have a drop in revenues from the sale of oil, gas, aluminum?
          It doesn't matter - there is "new oil" - the population, which can (and therefore need) to raise taxes, prices, retirement age (or even abolish pensions, they are already openly declaring this).
          These are parasites with the syndrome of the "abandoned wife", hence the throwing in attempts to "return the master" and his favor.
          They will never think about the people, the economy and sovereignty, they do not have such a "pay". For them, the "Soviet Union produced only galoshes" and "Stalin-Teran", for the right to complete the construction of Nord Stream-2, they will tolerate any Navalny, any sanctions ... And they will serve the "American trampoline" with their rocket engines.
          And everyone sees it.
          Worldwide .
          This is servility and acceptance of all spitting and insults for "the grace of God."
          These are parasites and compradors.
          And they don't need the Fleet.
          You don't need your own economy.
          The welfare of the People is not needed ... for it is easier to manage a hungry slave.
          They have Rosgvardia almost one and a half times more in number than the Ground Forces of the Russian Federation.
          And they have the third largest number of billionaires in the world.
          And they will never have money for the true development of the state and strengthening its defense capability ... They cut the defense budget every year.
          In the conditions of the Cold War and the highest probability of a Hot War.
          1. DED_peer_DED
            DED_peer_DED 24 December 2020 13: 45
            +1
            These are parasites with the syndrome of the "abandoned wife", hence the throwing in attempts to "return the master" and his favor.



            If I could add more, I would put the vibration relay on the mouse button.
            It is a pity that there are few people who understand the "situation" so correctly.
            1. Kart
              Kart 24 December 2020 17: 32
              -4
              Yes, you are not enough.
              Despite the fact that punitive psychiatry was canceled.
              1. Local from the Volga
                Local from the Volga 24 December 2020 19: 47
                -6
                exactly! Bravo!! drinks
          2. Vadim237
            Vadim237 24 December 2020 19: 56
            -5
            "And they will never have money for the true development of the state and strengthening its defense capability ..." What kind of true development of defense capability is this - like in the USSR, in which more than 30% of the budget went to the defense industry and any 10 out of 15 enterprises in the military-industrial complex plowed - no thanks, Russia spent 2,5% of GDP and will continue to spend on the military-industrial complex - there will be no more arms races. "The welfare of the People is not needed ... because it is easier to manage a hungry slave" "They will never think about the people, the economy and sovereignty" - If this were really so, then you would now walk around the world with outstretched hand as you would not there was no capital mat at all, no benefits, no social services, no pensions - an empty budget like in the 90s and every penny of money would go into the pockets of officials - new oligarchs in the localities, and Russia would now resemble today's Moldova.
            1. bayard
              bayard 25 December 2020 02: 03
              +2
              Quote: Vadim237
              an empty budget like in the 90s and every penny of money would go into the pockets of officials - new oligarchs in the field and Russia would now resemble today's Moldova.

              It was so - as in Moldova, in those very 90s.
              And it would have continued this way if "our" "elite" had not, when they left for the West, ... to expropriate - to seize assets, and sometimes themselves. And those who remained in the RF were treated like slaves assigned to their (western) assets. For they already considered all ours theirs.
              And the so-called. "our" "elites" have already interfered with them.
              And "ours" ... hysterized, turned around and began to think how to keep the "honestly plundered" under control ... and decided to somewhat strengthen the state and the Army, feed the People, preserve (!) A single state, which they had already been ordered from outside to divide into uluses, like the Socialist Camp, the Comecon, the Warsaw Pact and the USSR ... They decided to strengthen themselves and begin bargaining for the right to feed in Russia they had captured.
              VVP was chosen for the role of the performer and personification of "getting up from his knees".
              But the purpose of this was not sovereignty, but the creation of conditions in order to ... "come to an agreement" again.
              Recognizing their feeding rights.
              Therefore, they began to pay taxes to the budget, and the standard of living began to be raised - to feed the population for internal stability. Yes, and they began to create their own habitat, and they are not comme il faut to live in ruins.
              But it was not possible to agree.
              And the Army was revived in a very peculiar way ...
              Do not find?
              It seems like they've updated their combat aviation ...
              But!
              They did not attend to either tanker aircraft or (which is absolutely critical) AWACS aircraft. Didn't even bother to modernize the existing A-50 fleet! For 13 years of the existence of the program (!!!) of such modernization, only 5 pieces were modernized.
              What is it ?
              Getting up from your knees?
              Or imitation?
              Already 8 years on parades ride "Coalition-SV" ...
              And?
              Where is she in the troops?
              Old self-propelled guns from storage bases were returned to the troops.
              And in the USA there was a blockage with artillery ... but over the years they have created and tested a model superior to the "Coalition"!
              So who have the drivers been playing along with all these years?
              And the tanks?
              T-72 is being modernized.
              But how ?!
              With what slots in dynamic protection !!!
              And at what pace?
              It is better to remain silent about the fleet altogether - all programs have been disrupted, and deliberately disrupted.
              An example?
              The frigate 22350 No. 3 "Admiral Golovko" was launched from the slipway without a power plant just (!!!) on the eve of the arrival of the first domestic power plant assembly at the plant ...
              And the decision was made to install the power plant afloat!
              Nobody in the world has ever done this. To install a power plant, ideal conditions are needed, because precision is needed. It is necessary to completely immobilize the body and install it with an overhead crane for maximum accuracy ... Instead, they tried to install it afloat against the wall, and, as it were, not with a port crane ...
              And of course they screwed up ... and ruined the power plant, and, as it were, the frigate itself ... At least the power plant itself was destroyed there. So much so that they decided to install the next one on the next frigate - on the "Admiral Isakov", but already on the slipway.
              And the fate of "Admiral Golovko" will now be decided, for it needs a new power plant, and it must be installed in stationary conditions. At least in a dry dock with an overhead crane ...
              Do you think this is nonsense?
              Stupidity?
              Or direct sabotage and sabotage?
              And such examples are MASS.
              They are especially striking in the Navy.
              You have something to do with the Navy, don't you?
              Think for yourself.
              There is such a thing as intelligence signs.
              They will tell you.
              1. Vadim237
                Vadim237 25 December 2020 15: 09
                +1
                Already 8 years on parades ride "Coalition-SV" ... - Actually, 5 years it was shown in 2015.
                And in the USA with artillery there was absolutely a blockage ... but over the years they have created and tested a sample superior to the "Coalition"! This is XM 1299, it is in the very initial stage of testing and in what way it surpasses the SV Coalition - in the rate of fire, mobility, the firing range does not exceed only one guided projectile was able to hit the target at a distance of 70 kilometers, the rest all flew into milk. T 72 to B3 and B3M were brought up to 1700 units.
                It is better to keep silent about the fleet altogether - all programs have been disrupted, and deliberately disrupted. Since 2014, Ukraine has not supplied us with engines, turbines or gearboxes - but in six years everything has done its own thing and now the pace of construction will accelerate. Stop whining for you.
                1. bayard
                  bayard 26 December 2020 01: 11
                  +1
                  Quote: Vadim237
                  only one guided projectile was able to hit the target at a distance of 70 kilometers, the rest all flew into milk.

                  If you are about the last article on AO, then while you were writing it, there was a message about the successful defeat of the target at a distance of 100 km. Their rate of fire will never equal us, but they will be able to completely surpass the range. The barrel length is 58 calibers, it's still not 52 - a serious difference. Everything is damp for them so far and will not be ready for production soon. But we have not yet seen it in service.

                  Quote: Vadim237
                  T 72 to B3 and B3M were brought up to 1700 units.

                  I know these numbers.
                  Quote: Vadim237
                  Since 2014, Ukraine has not supplied us with engines, turbines or gearboxes - but in six years everything has done its job and now the pace of construction will accelerate

                  The critical place is gearboxes. And it is not a fact that "they did everything their own," it means that they did it well and it works.
                  The first domestic power plant for 22350 was delivered to St. Petersburg more than a year ago ... and almost ditched "Admiral Golovko", because some clever guys decided to install the power plant afloat (!! belay ), while the frigate was launched into the water just before the arrival of the power plant for him.
                  What was it ?
                  Stupidity?
                  Stupidity?
                  Overconfidence?
                  It was decided to carry out the most important operation for the installation of the most capricious units to the accuracy of installation, it was decided to carry out afloat, "at the wall" and, as it were, not by a port crane fool ... Not surprisingly, at the first tests, the GEM turned itself apart ... and how else is the ship itself ...
                  So now the FOLLOWING after the first power plant has been declared ... the "first" and will be installed on the frigate No. 4 "Admiral Isakov" body.
                  And what is this "pace of construction is accelerating"?
                  The fact of laying down 2 frigates per year does not mean that the industry is capable (today) of providing them with power plants. So far, over the past almost a year and a half (since the delivery of the first power plant), the manufacturer was able to supply only ... Half of the power plant for "Admiral Isakov" !!! And he promises to deliver the second half next year.
                  If the manufacture of the second (not the first) power plant takes 2 (!) Years, then what kind of "acceleration" can we talk about? There was one such accelerator in the history of the USSR, first "Acceleration", then "Perestroika" ... and everything was in smithereens.
                  So do not rush with a bravura cry, we do NOT have a power plant for frigates of project 22350. And it will appear only when the first frigate equipped with it goes on sea trials and SUCCESSFULLY PASS THEM. In the meantime, there is no one to go out with nothing.
                  And such an exit is possible not earlier than in 2 years.
                  This is the harsh reality.
                  Russia has no experience in the production of marine gearboxes, especially for a mixed (diesel-gas turbine) power plant request And what is there is a prototype (or rather, so far only half of it), because the very first model died an evil death, having turned itself apart, and it is not known how much it harmed the ship itself.
                  Therefore, it is of course "Urya", but only if not from intelligence and knowledge, but from sheer enthusiasm.
                  Today is the last days of 2020.
                  Armament programs until 2020 were to be completed today.
                  Remember their list?
                  How much and what should have been adopted.
                  And how much is there in real life?
                  Where are the AWACS aircraft?
                  PLO aircraft?
                  Marine scouts?
                  What about the "revival" of the MPA?
                  If tomorrow is a war, what are we going to fight?
                  Or, just like you now, will we look for "objective reasons"?
                  Comrade Beria said that "Every accident, every failure and failure, has its own name and position." And now it's time to sum up the results.
                  And balancing act with numbers does not work here.
                  And the speech about the Soviet Union, which produced "only galoshes" - too.
                  hi
          3. Irokez
            Irokez 25 December 2020 09: 21
            -2
            Quote: bayard
            And everyone sees it.
            Worldwide .

            You do not need to translate yourself into the plural and do not generalize the whole world with yourself.
            You are talking nonsense out of anger, probably that you are not an oligarch. Otherwise, you would have cut further and more than the famous oligarchs into restructuring. And so everyone can throw criticism and protest speeches like the same bulk on the wave of the fight against corruption. But the plus signs are pleasing to the eye, and the big green one has already been presented or awarded to you.
            1. bayard
              bayard 25 December 2020 13: 10
              0
              Quote: Irokez
              You do not need to translate yourself into the plural and do not generalize the whole world with yourself.

              smile
              Quote: Irokez
              You are talking nonsense out of anger, probably that you are not an oligarch.

              lol If you knew how close I was to such opportunities in 1992. I and my friend were then made a very interesting proposal, he was given a very non-last place in the Ministry of Industry (now Min-Prom-Torg), and I, with the same ministry - to collect debts from enterprises and their bankruptcy ... But we refused to join the "Gaidar team", although we were then very young people. it's just that our parents and the Soviet school instilled in us some moral principles ...
              So envy and "malice" is not mine.
              But for me, as in a wonderful Soviet film, "For the State, It's Offensive."
              And I write like this from knowledge and understanding of the issue, and not from emotions.
              And even more so far from the ideology of citizen Navalny, who needs to be imprisoned for a long time ... but he DOES NOT SIT.
              And why ?
              Why have the authorities, protected by you, not condemned this provocateur and direct enemy of the People so far?
              There are enough materials. yes
              And the case has been started. yes
              And they gave him a suspended sentence. yes
              And he is legally prohibited from traveling abroad. repeat
              How so ?
              Who is his Patron?
              That the whole State cannot define it for a well-deserved rest on a bunk?
              Or is it all a show and a giveaway game?
              As well as the agreement on the payment of fines to Ukraine?
              And Poland?
              So soon Khodorkovsky will be fined $ 57 billion. pay ...
              And they will pay.
              Because there is no sovereignty, no subjectivity and no State Will.
              In EVERYTHING, in relations with the "winners in the Cold War".
              Quote: Irokez
              But the plus signs are pleasing to the eye, and a big green one has already been presented or awarded to you.

              And "plus signs" are put by those who agree with my opinion, because I speak of obvious things about things.
              Only the blind will not notice them.
              And the sighted speaks about them.
              And by the way, who is the "big green" and why am I not familiar with him?
              I hope this is not a crocodile, otherwise I'm not very much about reptiles ...
              1. Irokez
                Irokez 25 December 2020 14: 21
                +1
                Quote: bayard
                And by the way, who is the "big green" and why am I not familiar with him?

                DED_peer_DED (Eugene) is the one who answered you below your post.

                And as to why they do not sit down and why everything is not the way you want, there are many unknowns from economics, politics, geopolitics, finance, and so on. Therefore, using simple methods to take and plant, you can even more harm not only the country in the political aspect, but also economically and propaganda will bring harm on the world stage. Immediately, as it turns out, you pull one cobweb, and the whole network bends and then you won’t be glad why it was so easy to close the question, but spoiled everything else. Here, jewelry work is needed so as not to spoil the overall picture, or even improve, but you have to sacrifice something, and you arrange rallies for these sacrifices. Not everything is so easy and simple, you have to look at the whole picture (at the whole world), and not just at a part of the world (Russia).
                1. bayard
                  bayard 25 December 2020 15: 04
                  0
                  yes Let's look at the world globally.
                  And we will wait for Trump's inauguration - January 20. 320 thousand have already signed up for his inauguration, tickets are being sold.
                  Let's make Donald Fradovich president again repeat and we will live! fellow
                  And we will build the Fleet. yes
                  And we will sell the oil. bully
        2. antivirus
          antivirus 24 December 2020 14: 03
          +2
          no corruption. there is a continuation of the era of initial accumulation ... therefore they do not change the vector of development ("corruption for 30 years")
        3. kit88
          kit88 24 December 2020 15: 47
          +13
          And no one canceled corruption and theft

          Isn't it time to somehow "cancel" it?
          Where do we have billionaires? In the 90s they "accumulated" their capital.
          And remember the 90s. How could an honest-educated-decent person, honestly, earn a lot of money then? Some grabber and thief then got up. And the more you are a grabber and a thief, the more money and power you have.
          Now let's add two plus two and turn our attention back to our billionaires. So where do you get the money, and who do you get in life?
          1. Vadim237
            Vadim237 24 December 2020 19: 59
            -4
            Half of the current billionaires are engaged in IT Internet sales, banks, CX logistics and so on.
        4. d1975
          d1975 27 December 2020 20: 13
          0
          What is the budget, I think you understand how our elections are going. Who really runs the country? How edrosnya adopts laws, how their fatteners on the ground really spit on people, on their problems. Type in the Internet Red jackets, bloggers, but you have enough about our edge of the eye. How can you manage at all, from the police to the administration. Local money is stupidly fighting. I did not work with my brother because of the good life in the track, how many people steal there. What a budget. The article is really needed. And stop thinking that the king is good, the boyars are bad. hi
      2. Vasiliev S.
        Vasiliev S. 24 December 2020 06: 34
        +8
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        Until there is an interested person or group of people with excellent organizational

        It will appear - and will not achieve anything, that is, there will be 0 result.
        Almost nothing depends on the organizer in such matters ...
        The industrial base was destroyed, technologies and design schools were lost ...
        There is no foundation.
        1. 210ox
          210ox 24 December 2020 06: 59
          +15
          Well, a hundred years ago, too, everything was destroyed. However, another socio-political formation.
        2. Vadim237
          Vadim237 24 December 2020 20: 02
          -4
          It will appear - and will not achieve anything, that is, there will be 0 result.
          "The industrial base has been destroyed, technologies and design schools have been lost ...
          There is no foundation. "- This is where it is in what and what kind of lost technologies - eaten or what?
        3. Nemchinov Vl
          Nemchinov Vl 28 December 2020 14: 15
          0
          Quote: VasilievS
          The industrial base was destroyed, technologies and design schools were lost ...
          There is no foundation.
          So you need to create (!)but not done (!), - and why ? !!... Maybe he's right, -
          Quote: bayard
          Because there is no sovereignty, no subjectivity and no State Will.
          ... ? !!.
          Otherwise, it probably would have been created long ago (was created since 2013-2014) your Center for Marine Gas Turbine Motor Building and Gearbox Manufacturing? !!.... A bunch of NPO Saturn and Zvezda Reductor, they cannot cope with this role (!!).... The former have priority aircraft engines, and the marine ones are based on the leftover principle, while the latter simply do not have enough production capacity for rhythmic construction (release) gearboxes to suit the fleet's shipbuilding programs ? !!.
          forcing the creation of diesel engines (from the family D-500) like that 12SD500 (for 8000 hp, or 16SD-500 10000 hp) from which it would be possible to create "quadruplets" for corvettes on VI 2500 tons, and accordingly small escort frigates like 11356 R / M about 4000 tons, unfortunately not observed ? !!...
          Power plant of the decommissioned "Sharp-eyed", from "quadruplets" DK-59 and gearboxes for them, "not cloned".... but the power plant on 72000 h.p. (!!)if lucky "cloned", and mastered on such - center of Marine gas turbine engine building and gearbox production, now would easily solve the issue for the construction of ships of the EM class !!!... It seems that it is an order of magnitude easier to balance the operation of four engines of the same type (I'm talking about gearboxes now) than of different types and different rotation as on frigates 22350 ?! .... But no steps are being taken in this direction ?!... recourse request
      3. Comrade I
        Comrade I 24 December 2020 11: 57
        +4
        Only such a group of people will not appear by itself either. Society itself should push such people.
      4. Fat
        Fat 24 December 2020 16: 25
        -4
        The fact that you are lying to yourself will not change anything!
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        The devastation at the top begins ...

        Start with yourself, Fratello Lech, then it will reach the "top" No.
    2. The Siberian barber
      The Siberian barber 24 December 2020 09: 50
      +9
      Quote: WFP
      We utilize "human capital", and we breed "Yaroslavna's cry" about iron.
      Devastation is not in toilets, devastation in heads.

      good
      Everything is turned upside down: not money for a goal, but money as an end in itself
    3. Local from the Volga
      Local from the Volga 24 December 2020 19: 43
      +1
      Exactly!!! as one of our not poor comrade said: I do not collect money, I collect people!
  4. ares1988
    ares1988 24 December 2020 05: 22
    +9
    Lazarev is also being disposed of, the contract was signed for the 21st year:
    https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3614485.html
    1. Redsun
      Redsun 24 December 2020 06: 25
      +8
      And then the divers examined the underwater part of his hull. It would seem, why, if the ship is under the knife. The process is not cheap. So maybe not everything is so simple. Hope dies last, although there are fewer reasons for her
      1. voronin
        voronin 24 December 2020 06: 56
        +19
        Quote: redsun
        maybe not everything is so simple. hope dies last

        It is very expensive and time-consuming to restore Lazarev. I hope that titanium nuclear submarines will be modernized.
        1. pin_code
          pin_code 24 December 2020 07: 03
          +7
          so Nakhimov is not quickly restored. therefore, there is still an opportunity to drag it to the North and put it there for modernization ... I would like ...
          1. voronin
            voronin 24 December 2020 07: 14
            +16
            They tried it on Nakhimov, and realized that it was very expensive, but at least they did not refuse and finish it. In addition, it was the freshest, after Petka. Unfortunately, time wasted. During this time, Lazarev has become even older, repairs are even more expensive ... No, you can really build several frigates for the same money instead. And now everything depends on money.
            The ships are a pity, they kill without a fight am
            1. pin_code
              pin_code 24 December 2020 07: 25
              +5
              when there is a choice .. expensive and restore and expensive to cut on pins and needles .. the conclusion is obvious. I understand that they will drink a needle budget and will not build anything in return, but about frigates ... so 956 and 1155 need to be replaced ... then they will be replaced by corvettes, SKRs will be replaced with rubber boats ...
              1. Vadim237
                Vadim237 24 December 2020 20: 17
                -4
                In modern realities, a large fleet of large ships of Russia is not needed - since the era of long-range hypersonic anti-ship missiles and IRBMs has begun, which at long distances will be able to send the most sophisticated ship to the bottom right up to the aircraft carrier with the entire crew, the larger the ship, the easier it is to detect and destroy it, which is cheaper to maintain 100 coastal launchers with the above-described missiles with a crew of two destroyers with a similar construction cost that can send hundreds of ships to the bottom without losing anything themselves or two destroyers that can destroy several ships in a real battle and will still be sunk by superior enemy forces in the open the ocean.
                1. pin_code
                  pin_code 25 December 2020 05: 41
                  -2
                  why did you decide that it is cheaper to maintain 100 installations? there is a whole infrastructure needed, only for them, boxes, roads, communications, radar, the same aviation and air defense ... so, what about cheaper, you obviously got excited.
                  1. max702
                    max702 25 December 2020 09: 57
                    0
                    All those costs that you listed are also in the fleet, only plus the ships and infrastructure for their maintenance ... So there are no 100 launchers no more expensive, you just do not know how expensive it is to maintain an efficient fleet ..
                  2. Vadim237
                    Vadim237 25 December 2020 15: 12
                    -1
                    No, I didn’t get excited, it’s cheaper and much easier to maintain, and most importantly, they are mobile.
      2. ares1988
        ares1988 24 December 2020 10: 21
        +2
        Let's see, of course, the wait is not long. But contracts for disposal are not simply concluded. Could the underwater survey be related to the upcoming cutting?
      3. ares1988
        ares1988 19 February 2021 18: 38
        0
        Lazarev still:
        https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4259579.html
  5. Far B
    Far B 24 December 2020 05: 30
    +8
    So, then there is no need to make loud statements about ...
    What are you doing ?! How dare you ?! This is the only thing that our "effective managers" really know how to do. But this, oddly enough, helps them stay afloat.
    1. pin_code
      pin_code 24 December 2020 07: 04
      +6
      they are defective ... effective nowadays are not held in high esteem ...
  6. Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 24 December 2020 05: 41
    +26
    But Alexey Mordashev built a yacht of 139 meters and a cost of several hundred million dollars.
    1. Local from the Volga
      Local from the Volga 24 December 2020 19: 54
      -11%
      What do you know about Mordashev? Just shout, robbed you sick ?!
      1. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 24 December 2020 20: 23
        +3
        Quote: Local from the Volga
        What do you know about Mordashev?

        A relative or what? wink
    2. Vadim237
      Vadim237 24 December 2020 20: 19
      -3
      He did not build it, but ordered a specialized office for the development and sale of large yachts.
  7. Andrey Yuryevich
    Andrey Yuryevich 24 December 2020 05: 48
    +26
    the beautiful ships of the 956 project were ruined by an extremely unsuccessful power plant, the destroyers worked for 10 years in total (on average), in fact, new ships, with powerful (the Americans even spoke of excessively powerful) weapons, were put on pins and needles. All this is sad. How did it happen that there was not enough intelligence and money for the "pipes" and "blades" for the turbines? something is wrong in the "Danish kingdom".
    1. pin_code
      pin_code 24 December 2020 07: 07
      +11
      I have a question for you .. on the 956th Chinese put other power plants? or still OUR 956s were simply killed, and not for free ... this is the conclusion that suggests itself ...
      1. d4rkmesa
        d4rkmesa 24 December 2020 08: 53
        +10
        The first two Chinese had improved KTUs and were very well served, but most likely they have already been replaced. The last two have diesel-fueled KTUs, they are much easier to maintain. Be that as it may, the fact is that the fleet did not master the maintenance of those still fuel oil boilers.
        1. pin_code
          pin_code 24 December 2020 09: 00
          +3
          I agree with you .. but not quite. rather, everything was done to prevent the fleet from serving them. it just cannot be ... MTF and suddenly fell ill ... this is already an infection and clearly not domestic ...
          1. Galleon
            Galleon 24 December 2020 12: 58
            +10
            Namesake, you do not agree, but I confirm that Yuryevich is right - he did not master the fleet of servicing KTU. Especially, I remember, the breakdowns of boilers and other mechanical parts became more frequent, when conscripts were transferred to serve from 3 to 2 years. Who made up the machine-boiler groups - representatives of Central Asia, the Caucasus and a few Slavs. What is the attitude to the service of this contingent? On large ships, when the commander's eye cannot keep track of everyone, the sailor's attitude to service decides a lot. And the attitude towards this sailor decides a lot. Put both of these factors with a minus sign, and you get the aircraft carrier "Admiral Kuznetsov". Put pluses - get a Chinese example.
            1. pin_code
              pin_code 24 December 2020 13: 38
              +1
              here you are right, before they took only Slavs and Georgians to the navy, correct me if I'm wrong.
            2. pin_code
              pin_code 24 December 2020 13: 42
              0
              By the way, he is my namesake and patronymic. But there are disagreements in the family, not only among the namesakes. He is right about something, about something wrong. what I wrote.
              1. Galleon
                Galleon 24 December 2020 13: 49
                +7
                You have tried to discern the malicious intent of some subjects in a mass phenomenon that speaks of a certain system error. Andrey and I understand this system error and are trying to identify it. That's all the disagreement.
                1. pin_code
                  pin_code 24 December 2020 14: 26
                  0
                  so the error is known to everyone, it has been a system error for 20 years, a normal program failure, and no more
      2. donavi49
        donavi49 24 December 2020 09: 19
        +16
        The Chinese are interested in everything:
        1) They delved into this topic and made a number of important improvements (yes, 3 aircraft carriers - well, 956 for delivery in medium repair). Completely new Chinese water treatment system, additional control mechanisms. Plus, in general, they are said to have significantly increased the reliability and the inter-service interval of the CTU.
        2) Chinese sailor, this is not a Russian sailor. If the Chinese has it written in the instructions, he will follow everything to the point. This is the mentality. Russian often deviates from requirements and parameters. Not every. But the trouble with KTU is that even 1 fool is enough.
        3) They have ship repair on horseback. They do not bring to the point where everything is only for replacement.

        And again, the Chinese 956 compares favorably with the Russian:
        1) They are all in one place.
        2) One plant carries out their repair, modernization, medium repair.
        3) The head has already undergone significant modernization. We installed two WPU Calm instead of beams useless today, a new short-range air defense system, updated posts and systems (that is, the ship became more unified with the Chinese - and this is cheaper in maintenance and training), shoved a new CIC, a new version of the radar, new anti-ship missiles, Chinese clones MK46 instead of the old 533 TA. Well, etc.

        The brother is undergoing modernization for the same project.


        At the turn of 21-22, they will start refit for this project 956EM.
        1. pin_code
          pin_code 24 December 2020 10: 35
          +2
          and than the Russian sailor is worse than the Chinese ??? maybe another factor is more important? who leaked the project ??? Or do you think that in Russia after 91, they immediately began to teach poorly in schools and pheasants ??? I do not think so. and the Chinese were hardly more learned. they stupidly adhered to MOT and passport data. you cannot kill ships without knowing the sore spots, but they were killed and many, and there are still titles, positions and surnames ...
          1. donavi49
            donavi49 24 December 2020 11: 21
            +16
            The fact that this is a different mentality.
            The Chinese do what is written. And it will do it. Aki robot.
            The Russian improvises, he comes up with procedures that seem to work and take less time / effort. Again, not everyone. But the trouble with KTU is that one pest rationalizer is enough for the death of KTU.

            Again, now boilers can be tightened in terms of reliability, thanks to the automation of key processes. Introduce a number of improvements and updates. However, it will take a lot of money, and in the conditions of Russia it will give a dubious result and significantly overblown in terms of the budget. For it will be necessary to create infrastructure, supply logistics, train ship repair specialists and prepare enterprises in at least x2 format. I repeat, even the richest China serves all 956 in one plant and repairs / modernizes there.

            And by the way, the latter. There is almost zero sense from 956 now. The mosquitoes are rotten - or rather it's an extension through an extension. If the 956 is upgraded to run until the 30s, then the main complex needs to be replaced. Beam Calms is also useless archaic. We need a VPU. Or the Chinese type or what kind of Redoubt. Well, all the electronics, combat posts and other good things are also under replacement. Rather, taking into account the state, this is a guaranteed replacement of combat posts and a hauling of cable routes, and if you drag them, then it is better to immediately drag them in a new way.

            As a result, there is a good 6 years of repair for the ship and the price tag of $ 500 million from USC will fly out just once.
            1. pin_code
              pin_code 24 December 2020 13: 34
              +4
              Well, Osk just needs to be overclocked. and the price tag will immediately drop 2 times. this is for your "multiply by 2". I suggested finishing the inclined ones for onyx and calibers. they did the same ... and what they did not do, someone's article just wrinkles and no more. everything is possible even with 956, even now it is possible, there are just fewer of them left ..
            2. pin_code
              pin_code 24 December 2020 13: 36
              -2
              and improvisation has nothing to do with it, rather malicious intent. it will come up anyway, maybe not with us anymore ..
            3. T.Henks
              T.Henks 24 December 2020 13: 52
              +6
              A little not in it, but about innovators. Bought on the occasion of a "machine" for the production of raw smoked sausage. Bourgeois. The controller was in charge of everything there. Worked for about a month. Suddenly he began to refuse to make the right sausage. The owner already knows where to pull his hair. He cried about the bourgeois reptiles who sold such a city. My friend took pity, promised to see this miracle for good money. And, if anything, help. Three weeks puffed. Again the sausage is delicious. But not for long. Again they called for help. Did. And the casket just opened. Kulibin, who worked with this device, was very smart. Either he steals the meat, replaces it with soybeans and peas by weight, then the wood chips of the wrong and wrong weight will fall asleep in the smoker, salt and spices will put the wrong weight again. And the controller refuses to start the process. The interlocks were simple, relay automation. This Kulibin rationalized it. The owner drove him out. Put someone else. No longer calls for repairs. Maybe it's the same with KTU?
              1. pin_code
                pin_code 24 December 2020 14: 16
                +3
                about the sausage ... this is not a joke. it really happened and not just once, but hundreds of times. some just went bankrupt, there are thieves everywhere and always. but with KTU everything is easier ... my uncle served 4 years in the army, father 3 in the navy, but much later. and now there are other tasks, both in school and in conscripts ... the dumber the better
            4. Nemchinov Vl
              Nemchinov Vl 28 December 2020 14: 29
              0
              Quote: donavi49
              ... If you upgrade the 956 to run until the 30s ....
              and if it is a little wrong ... but to redesign the project itself (conditionally old corps 956) for new systems of modern weapons (?!), such as SAM "Polyment-Redut", UKSK for 32-40 VPU, PLUR "Waterfall", etc. winked , and as a power plant, to demand from the industry right now - namely "clone" GEM from "Smetlivgo" is not yet lost .... Disassemble by screw, and create your own analog-clone... ?!
              1. Lex_is
                Lex_is 28 December 2020 14: 46
                0
                It will be much easier to create a new project that meets modern requirements.

                Do not forget that now the cost of a hull is no more than 20% of the cost of equipment and weapons.
                1. Nemchinov Vl
                  Nemchinov Vl 28 December 2020 15: 03
                  0
                  Quote: Lex_is
                  It will be much easier to create a new project that meets modern requirements.
                  no one argues. In fact, he will - new project... In this context, it meant using the experience of successful constructive solutions of the past (in part successful contours of the hull 956 and its "proven practice" seaworthiness, and reliability of the power plant pr. 61 "Sharp-witted"), and no more (!)...
  8. Minato2020
    Minato2020 24 December 2020 05: 49
    +12
    The Baltic Fleet is not particularly needed - except perhaps minesweepers and naval aviation. The real course of the Great Patriotic War in the Baltic theater of operations will confirm this.

    The MA of the fleet and the air force of the spacecraft - destroyed and seriously damaged at least 450 ships and vessels, of which at least 95-100 targets were the work of mine and torpedo aviation.

    Submariners - sank or disabled at least 170 ships and vessels.

    Torpedo boats - at least 22-25 ships and vessels have been sunk or disabled.

    Coastal artillery - sank and damaged at least 10-12 targets.

    Large surface ships carried out counter-battery defense of Leningrad and prevented air strikes from the side of the berths.

    This is precisely what must be clearly understood.
    The Navy, on the other hand, spends money on naval aviation on a purely leftover basis.
    1. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 24 December 2020 05: 55
      +10
      Quote: Minato2020
      The Navy, on the other hand, spends money on naval aviation on a purely leftover basis.

      The Navy has nothing to do with it, they are like stepchildren of the Armed Forces, and there was no money of their own, there was recently an article on VO, who rules the means, but here's the answer:
      Our "Pentagon Wars" -2. R&D chaos
      [b] [/ b] in the next topic.
      1. Minato2020
        Minato2020 25 December 2020 05: 25
        0
        Quote: Aerodrome

        The Navy has nothing to do with it - they are like stepchildren of the Armed Forces, and there was no money of their own, there was recently an article on VO, who rules the means ...


        The main monetary functions were selected before Serdyukov,
        even under Ivanov. But there was still something left.

        Quote: Aerodrome

        ... yes, here's the answer: Our "Pentagon Wars" -2. Chaos of development work [b] [/ b] in a neighboring topic.


        Thanks for the link, I'll try to take a look.
  9. Owl
    Owl 24 December 2020 05: 51
    +20
    What does not bring profit to the pockets of the "friends-oligarchs" of the nationwide "guarantor" has no real prospects. "Defense" is not for the defense of the country and not for the protection of national interests, it is needed by the current "masters of life" for agitation and propaganda PR; for money laundering on government orders; to receive foreign exchange profits from the sale to their "partners" and for show at exhibitions.
  10. Titus_2
    Titus_2 24 December 2020 06: 01
    +14
    The article is interesting to Roman thanks. For me, first of all, I feel sorry for those that are nuclear, because as I understand it, we do not have a surface fleet with a nuclear installation. Well, in fact, there were several ships there, before being removed from the fleet, were put into repair. and that means they mastered the money. As always, no one is responsible for anything .... however, unfortunately with the government.
    1. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 24 December 2020 06: 19
      +10
      Quote: Titus_2
      As I understand it, we do not have a nuclear powered surface fleet.

      but there are rockets with an atomic engine named "zero"! fellow
      1. reader65
        reader65 25 December 2020 04: 28
        -1
        Yes, and these missiles are only according to the words zeroed out. Yes, in the heads of uryakolok.
  11. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 24 December 2020 06: 14
    -7
    The Moremans again propose to add colossal funds to the useless fleet. Here is the answer to the question - what is the point of maintaining a large fleet for Russia? Do we have overseas territories like the United States and Britain? Or is Russia located on an island and does not have a land border with aggressive neighbors like Japan and the United States and Britain? Or is Russia spreading "democracy" with aircraft carrier groups and defending the Panama Canal and the Strait of Hormuz? The entire experience of Russian wars has shown that the fleet is not needed to defend the country's borders; this was also shown by the experience of the war with Napoleon, and the First World War, and the Great Patriotic War. In the Crimean War, the fleet was flooded, since the Russian fleet against the combined fleets of Britain and France was useless. In the RYAV, the fleet was ineptly slept through. In WWI they shook over every battleship, and they stood the whole war in Kronstadt, never giving a single battle to the German fleet, and the sailors, stupefied with idleness, became the detonator of the February Revolution. In the Second World War, the fleet also did not show itself in anything, as the Germans transported iron ore from Sweden, and carried it until 1945. The fate of the war was decided on land, not at sea.
    1. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 24 December 2020 06: 22
      +15
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      Here is the answer to the question - what is the point of maintaining a large fleet for Russia?

      and the army is not needed nafig .. there is a "button"! here is the "Rosgvardia" needed so that the inhabitants do not relax, and seditious thoughts in the squares are not voiced! yes wassat
      1. pin_code
        pin_code 24 December 2020 07: 16
        +6
        the last one for someone is really more important than any armature and moments and su.sarcasm of course ... but there is truth ..
      2. Doctor
        Doctor 24 December 2020 10: 18
        +10
        and the army is not needed nafig .. there is a "button"! here is the "Rosguard" is needed so that the townsfolk do not relax, and seditious thoughts in the squares are not voiced! yes wassat

        Here the problem is in priorities with a limited budget.
        Added in one - faded in the other.
        And the budget is never enough.

        And the result is that the fleets are worth, but:

        War with Napoleon, up to 40% of arms supplies - British Lend-Lease.

        PVM - Fedorov prowls around the world in search of rifles.

        WWII - repetition of the war of 1812, only the enemy is different.

        Now the same song, we will restore 40-year-old barges, but there will be no normal UAV.
    2. Redsun
      Redsun 24 December 2020 06: 30
      +13
      So it is so, the way to the ocean is still closed to us, but we would not like to let the enemy AUG at the distance of operation of its aircraft and missiles. It is also necessary to ensure the combat stability of the SSBN. Strength is not needed small
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 24 December 2020 06: 46
        -16%
        For Russia, only the US and British fleets are dangerous. But to contain their aggression, we have the Strategic Missile Forces and nuclear submarine cruisers. And if they try to do with Russia the same as they did with Yugoslavia, Libya and Iraq, they will receive vigorous loaves for their cities. They know this very well, and therefore do not climb. China will not start a war against Russia for the same reason, besides, the main adversary of China is the United States, and its satellites in the person of Taiwan, Japan and South Korea.
        1. pin_code
          pin_code 24 December 2020 07: 18
          +9
          they will not receive anything, except for dollar and gold loaves, it is possible to replace the dollar with a euro, and gold for platinum, iridium, osmium
        2. Redsun
          Redsun 24 December 2020 07: 23
          +11
          It is very naive to think that Russia will immediately throw out nuclear missiles, hardly anyone wants to step on the throat of our interests. And the option when, for example, the entire "world community" will sharply oppose the base in Tartus and begin its naval blockade, you do not consider? Or someone will really not like the base in Sudan or somewhere in Cuba. If there was a powerful fleet, no one would have twitched. And so - the temptation is great. Or just start throwing vigorous loaves?
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 24 December 2020 07: 26
            -16%
            Against such enemies as the United States and Britain, of course, you must immediately throw vigorous loaves, since it is impossible to defeat them in a war with conventional weapons. Well, to force such small mongrels as rodents and bloomers into peace, a small fleet is enough.
            1. Redsun
              Redsun 24 December 2020 07: 30
              +7
              What is Britain that cannot be defeated with conventional weapons? We will not be able to defeat on our territory unless China. And because of the collision in the ocean, no one will start a nuclear war, even if our whole kug goes to the bottom. Alas, but it is so
              1. Kot_Kuzya
                Kot_Kuzya 24 December 2020 07: 33
                -13%
                Britain is still an empire, which includes, in addition to Britain itself, Canada, Australia, Papua New Guinea, New Zealand and many other territories around the planet.
                1. Redsun
                  Redsun 24 December 2020 07: 39
                  +9
                  But this is already, sorry, shiz. Purely nominally, it may be, but in fact these are independent countries and will act based on their interests. Especially, of course, you should be wary of the last two. What strengths
                  1. Kot_Kuzya
                    Kot_Kuzya 24 December 2020 07: 44
                    -8
                    Quote: redsun
                    But this is already, sorry, shiz. Purely nominally, maybe yes, but in fact these are independent countries and will act based on their interests

                    But the heads of these countries are governors-general, appointed by the British monarch, who is also the commander-in-chief of the armed forces of these countries, and has the authority to dissolve parliament and dismiss the prime minister and federal judges. And by the way, these countries are officially monarchies, and quite by accident the Queen of Canada and Australia, for example, is Elizabeth II. In addition, I hope you are aware of whom the military personnel of these countries swear allegiance to. Not to his people or his country, but to the British monarch.
                    1. Sergej1972
                      Sergej1972 28 December 2020 21: 00
                      -1
                      These are formal credentials. The prime ministers of these countries have real powers. And it is the current prime ministers and ruling coalitions that select candidates for the post of governor-general from among local citizens. And the queen just appoints them later. These governors-general can dissolve parliament only on the recommendation of the government. The British queen has no real power in Great Britain itself.
                      1. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 28 December 2020 22: 00
                        -2
                        Oh, these tales about the "cradle of democracy". Who and what limits the power of the British monarch? Let me tell you a big secret - in Britain there is no Constitution, and the power of the monarch is not limited by anything. As for the governor-general, it is he who provides the prime minister for approval by the monarch and the Parliament of Canada. Suddenly, huh? And the prime minister can only recommend to the monarch the candidacy of the governor-general, the last word rests with the monarch. Plus, the monarch can arbitrarily extend the powers of the governor-general, if this person is completely satisfied with him. But you have to play democracy, and that's why they usually regularly change the governor-general for another loyal person. In fact, Canada, Australia and other dominions are federal entities of Britain, such as California in the United States or Tatarstan in Russia. The Constitution of Tatarstan also says that it is a sovereign state and has its own Parliament, Constitutional Court, National Bank and other decorations of a sovereign state, but everyone understands that these are just decorations, and Tatarstan has no more sovereignty than the same Krasnoyarsk Territory.
                      2. Sergej1972
                        Sergej1972 29 December 2020 01: 35
                        -1
                        Briefly. You are not right. I am telling you as a person who studied and taught, in particular, the theory and history of state and law.
              2. T.Henks
                T.Henks 24 December 2020 14: 13
                0
                It would not hurt to read the late Winston Lord Churchill. How he fought with Russia. His entire army did not recruit three hundred thousand. At sea, maybe she was strong, I don't know. But not drier. They had brains, the people were not driven to the slaughter for show-off. We sat quietly on the island while the tigers fought. Only in aviation are the losses huge. This means whether it is necessary to have it in an overwhelming number of the country. Or a bunch of goofy ships. The Germans still could not get to their land throughout the war. All in the lamanche vanished. Here is the air defense. Maybe there would be more sense on this path.
      2. Snail N9
        Snail N9 24 December 2020 07: 39
        +11
        For Russia, the main danger is the well-known "cooperative" with hangers-on and the "vertical" created by it ...
        1. FRoman1984
          FRoman1984 24 December 2020 09: 57
          +6
          Quote: Snail N9
          For Russia, the main danger is the well-known "cooperative" with hangers-on and the "vertical" created by it ...

          I agree. Instead of these cooperatives "Lakes", you could build a lot. And there would be no question whether to repair "Lazarev" or not.
          Ocean ships are needed! The author here makes fun of them, calls them irons. But in fact, the Eagles are the only ones that can sail without support vessels and the shame of tugboats in case of breakdown. We do not have as many MTO bases in the world as the amers do to switch to a gas turbine engine by 100 percent, refueling in all ports of NATO and Asian satellites
      3. Essex62
        Essex62 24 December 2020 08: 09
        0
        Don't give a damn about their cities, what is there besides LGBT people and stupefied migrants with blacks? Puppeteers are the single most effective target. Maybe they will be able to shoot from the wall of the SSBNs at the atolls, or maybe the Hornets will haunt them, flying up to the distance of an effective launch. And as soon as they understand that Russia does not have time to answer them, they will start immediately.
        So we need a fleet, at least for the possibility of the latter
        salvo, surviving carrier?
        Minus is not mine, in general, I share your position hi
    3. Runway
      Runway 24 December 2020 07: 53
      +11
      I will unpleasantly surprise you with one example, colleague:
      - from Khabarovsk to P-K in a "straight line" 1700 km with kopecks (the ideal position for work on the coast by AUS aviation);
      - the notorious "bastions" of the RPKSN in the "freezer", off the western coast of Kamchatka;
      - surface military steamships from Vladik, in order to sink into the "freezer" must pass the item of La Perouse with the consequences.
      - through Nevelskoy, for objective reasons, we will not push anything larger than the MRK / MPK (and then in the summer and when we pray)
      - the basing of surface watermen in P-K is not affordable;
      - Nagaevo (everything is forgotten and crammed into everything).
      Arbat VO for 4 five-year plans has not even scratched himself on this topic.
  12. pin_code
    pin_code 24 December 2020 07: 14
    +1
    We have more territories of our own than lice and brittes combined. and in your opinion, we do not need a fleet to protect our territory from an adversary ... original. and, by the way, Russia needs carrier groupings. we have enough of our own bays. Well, they were going to build the channel.
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 24 December 2020 07: 30
      -10%
      Quote: pin_code
      We have more territories of our own than lice and brittes combined

      Let me tell you a secret - even without the United States, the territory of Britain with Canada, Australia, Papua New Guinea and New Zealand is larger than the territory of Russia.
      Quote: pin_code
      and in your opinion, we do not need a fleet to protect our territory from an adversary ... original

      AND? How did the fleet help in protecting the territory of Russia / USSR in the wars against Napoleon, in the First World War and the Great Patriotic War? The answer was that it didn't help. The Navy has always been just a stupidly useless resource guzzler.
      Quote: pin_code
      and, by the way, Russia needs carrier groupings. we have enough of our own bays. Well, they were going to build the channel.

      You don't need a fleet to guard the bays. Winter comes, the bays are covered with ice, and the adversary is forced to leave, otherwise he will freeze into the ice and crush him with ice.
  13. d4rkmesa
    d4rkmesa 24 December 2020 08: 55
    +5
    We have "overseas territories" - the Kuriles and the Kaliningrad region.
  14. orcinus
    orcinus 24 December 2020 09: 52
    +5
    That's when, in 10 years, not far from the Northern Sea Route, the "adversaries" will be able to deploy a group that can successfully accompany, act and, if necessary, block in those latitudes, and there will be problems with the delivery of "balalaikas, bears, braids and calibers with onyx" to "urakalov", perhaps something will come. Because the western and eastern parts of the country are connected on land, in fact, two canvases with a throughput of the middle of the 20th century. And the reasons for the fact that the fleet in the conflicts you listed essentially "closed" in its waters is that we always had adherents of "our own unique" way of development of the fleet, as it is now fashionable for "asymmetric responses". This is akin to when there is no money to buy a normal foreign car, then a citizen begins to glue a Zhiguli on epoxy in the garage with cheap plastic. More than 70% of all trade turnover precisely due to sea routes - the ability to control them is the key to economic security and opportunities for development. And the nonsense about the "land" power is already tired of the order.
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 24 December 2020 10: 45
      -8
      Quote: orcinus
      And the nonsense about the "land" power is already tired of the order.

      Sure sure. It looks like Napoleon and Hitler would not have been defeated without the help of the fleet.
      1. timokhin-aa
        timokhin-aa 24 December 2020 12: 58
        +6
        They did not win, without help.
  15. Wilderness
    Wilderness 24 December 2020 10: 13
    +6
    And how can we prevent a hypothetical blockade of the Kaliningrad region without the fleet? Or the blockade of import-export from Ust-Luga? Imagine that there is no war, but there is a blockade.
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 24 December 2020 10: 52
      0
      Quote: Wilderness
      Imagine that there is no war, but there is a blockade.

      A naval blockade is a war. According to the London Naval Agreement of 1909, a naval blockade is permissible only during a period of war. In peacetime, it is absolutely unacceptable.
      1. Wilderness
        Wilderness 24 December 2020 11: 13
        +6
        It used to be like that. As well as the inviolability of the ambassadors, the premises of the dip. missions, pouch, etc. All of these Old Testament laws are now almost dead. Only the weak still cling to them.
      2. Storekeeper
        Storekeeper 24 December 2020 22: 12
        +1
        Quarantine can be announced as during the Cuban missile crisis. Words are different, but the result is the same.
    2. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 24 December 2020 19: 30
      +1
      destroyers are not needed to break the blockade in the Baltic, and we will manage with corvettes
    3. Vadim237
      Vadim237 24 December 2020 20: 29
      -1
      In this case, BTA, accompanied by fighters, will help.
      1. Wilderness
        Wilderness 24 December 2020 21: 06
        +1
        Will the resource of the aircraft be enough for a long time? Should you carry fuel oil for boiler houses?
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 25 December 2020 15: 16
          0
          There are hundreds of aircraft of all payload classes and they all fly thousands of hours a year, so that's enough - but they won't fly for a long time, since there are coastal missile systems from the blockade that can destroy a ship at a distance of several hundred kilometers, and with the advent of Zircon missiles, there are more than 1000 kilometers any blockade and khan blocking ships
  16. Zurbagan
    Zurbagan 24 December 2020 18: 27
    +2
    And how can we defend our sea trade routes without a fleet? For example, we blew $ 57 billion to the scoundrel Khodorkovsky and his comrades in the international "court" (this is with interest today), and our "partners" around the world will begin to confiscate (if we refuse to pay) real estate, ships, cargo forcibly owned by Russia (for example, tankers with oil or Russian oil itself in tankers under false flags). And what if we are not able to protect our property from international crooks without a developed fleet? Maybe I am completely wrong, but this is how I see possible problems for a country that does not have long-distance ships in the required, albeit minimal, quantity. And I do not believe at all that the leadership of our country will detain the ships of the "foe" in the form of a retaliatory measure. And we get humiliated and spat upon. It can be very sad.
  • Lipchanin
    Lipchanin 24 December 2020 06: 23
    -1
    And the Nikolaev and Zaporozhye factories, alas, are lost. And both shipbuilding enterprises and engine builders.

    Like there was talk about the construction of factories in Novorossiysk.
    If anyone knows, tell me, are they building, not building, or have they already been built? hi
    1. pin_code
      pin_code 24 December 2020 07: 27
      +5
      now in Kerch and Feodosia there are. there is no point in building in Novorossiysk either.
      1. Lipchanin
        Lipchanin 24 December 2020 09: 02
        -2
        Quote: pin_code
        now in Kerch and Feodosia there are. there is no point in building in Novorossiysk either.

        Thank you hi
        And then I already began to be afraid of asking questions on the topic
        Minus request
        1. pin_code
          pin_code 24 December 2020 09: 07
          +2
          No ... well, if I screwed up ... I'm sorry. It's just that everything is fast, you are online, but before that .. and on the topic .. and in truth, having 2 CVDs in the Crimea, to build more ... if only for grakhdanka or who has views on Pie ...
          1. Lipchanin
            Lipchanin 24 December 2020 09: 09
            -1
            Quote: pin_code
            Crimea to build more

            So there were plans when Crimea was not yet ours
            1. pin_code
              pin_code 24 December 2020 09: 18
              +3
              maybe ... maybe they are building something ... but there were no reports of a "breakthrough", I apologize, but now that's how they call everyone names. now it's not commonplace.
              1. Lipchanin
                Lipchanin 24 December 2020 09: 21
                -2
                Quote: pin_code
                maybe ... maybe they are building something ... but there were no messages about

                Now I saw what I had lost and remembered.
                That means they really don't build. that's why I forgot
    2. pin_code
      pin_code 24 December 2020 07: 34
      +1
      the answer to your minus, if they built-shouted Kiselyov programs 5-10. and Kiselyof is silent ...
      1. Lipchanin
        Lipchanin 24 December 2020 09: 03
        -2
        Quote: pin_code
        the answer to your minus if built-o

        I did not minus.
        In general, I very rarely minus
        1. pin_code
          pin_code 24 December 2020 09: 08
          0
          well, here it is .. someone thought for you
          1. Lipchanin
            Lipchanin 24 December 2020 09: 10
            -2
            Quote: pin_code
            well, here it is .. someone thought for you

            It happens and often that you write something, but they see something else
  • Redsun
    Redsun 24 December 2020 06: 33
    +10
    I wonder how realistic it is with appropriate funding to capitalize Kirov and Lazarev on the model of Nakhimov? And isn't it actually more rational to have a couple of 22350s instead of one such cruiser?
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 24 December 2020 09: 29
      +10
      Nakhimov - 6 years and 2 more years under the program (and she may move further).
      How much fucking money they ate (80-100 billion)
      At the same time, Nakhimov is sweet and a minimum of additional work. Lazarev and Kirov are ruined rust. Everything there just needs to be restored and redone, even if the body is still alive.



  • Per se.
    Per se. 24 December 2020 06: 51
    +15
    And nevertheless, maybe still in intensive care?
    No, "doctor" capitalism said to the morgue ... Dear Roman, the destruction of a powerful fleet in our country has not begun today. There is no big politics without a strong fleet. Those who will talk about the prosperous Switzerland, which no one touches, and the "land" of Russia, and even about the economy of the people's penny (with billions flowing over the hill), or naive people, or demagogues working out the master's order in the network.

    Suffice it to recall EPRON, when they raised and restored generally sunken ships, since the young Soviet country needed a fleet.
    In the same year (1924) the oil tanker Elbrus was raised from a depth of 38 meters, the minesweeper "Pervansh" from a depth of 18 meters and the destroyer "Kaliakria" from a depth of 27 meters. This destroyer almost died a second time. Sent in tow from Sevastopol to Nikolaev, he got into a strong ice storm, which threatened him with inevitable death. Thanks to the heroic efforts and skill of the team that carried out the ferry, led by one of the best workers of the Expedition F.A.Shpakovich, the destroyer was safely brought to the shipyard in Nikolaev. After a while, it was restored and put into operation by the Black Sea Fleet under the name "Dzerzhinsky".


    The willing seeker seeks opportunities, not the willing cause. Our "partners" and masters of capitalism took great care to destroy a strong fleet from a superpower. First of all, aircraft carrier, then the latest boats of Project 941, then all large ships. The entire mobilization reserve, to which attention was paid in Soviet times, was also destroyed.

    Probably, our bad boys, on the one hand, need to puff their cheeks, to raise ratings after the disastrous Yeltsin, on the other hand, and surrender to the bourgeois owners, getting rid of the burden of Soviet power. Who will win, time will tell.
    1. pin_code
      pin_code 24 December 2020 07: 29
      +5
      Yours truly, with respect!
  • evgen1221
    evgen1221 24 December 2020 07: 27
    +7
    Under the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, due to the lack of blades for the engine, the finished ship would not have been cut.
    1. pin_code
      pin_code 24 December 2020 07: 31
      +7
      for the reason that the shoulder blades would have done. for factories and factories were run by professionals, not opportunistic managers.
    2. Woodman
      Woodman 24 December 2020 08: 02
      +2
      Quote: evgen1221
      When the Communist Party

      Just remember Khrushchev ...
      The cruiser building program was completely curtailed and almost finished ships were cut into scrap metal. They were cut in 1959, the degree of readiness of the cruisers of the project 68 bis: Shcherbakov; Tallinn; Kronstadt; Admiral Kornilov; Arkhangelsk from 68 to 84%. The readiness of the Varyag cruisers; Vladivostok - from 29 to 40%.

      Heavy cruisers of Project 82, which can be qualified as battleships, were also cut for scrap. The displacement of the cruiser Stalingrad was provided for 43000 tons, the main caliber gun was 305 mm, the length was 250 meters, the crew was 1500 people. This cruiser was similar to the famous German battleship Tirpitz. In addition, two more heavy cruisers of the same project were cut ...
      The apotheosis of Khrushchev's madness in relation to the Soviet navy is a gift from an entire Indonesian Pacific squadron. Donated: 12 submarines; cruiser Ordzhonikidze; 6 destroyers; 12 missile boats; several patrol ships. In addition to ships, amphibious tanks, fighters, coastal missile systems, 30000 sea mines were transferred. In total, several hundred units of modern military equipment were transferred.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 10: 11
        +14
        Quote: Lesovik
        The cruiser building program was completely curtailed and almost finished ships were cut into scrap metal. They were cut in 1959, the degree of readiness of the cruisers of the project 68 bis: Shcherbakov; Tallinn; Kronstadt; Admiral Kornilov; Arkhangelsk from 68 to 84%. The readiness of the Varyag cruisers; Vladivostok - from 29 to 40%.

        Heavy cruisers of Project 82, which can be qualified as battleships, were also cut for scrap. The displacement of the cruiser Stalingrad was provided for 43000 tons, the main caliber gun was 305 mm, the length was 250 meters, the crew was 1500 people. This cruiser was similar to the famous German battleship Tirpitz. In addition, two more heavy cruisers of the same project were cut ...

        Separately, amused about the 12-inch Tirpitz. And Khrushchev, who handed over these dinosaurs from the stocks for scrap metal in the 59th year, of course is completely right. A year earlier, CVN-65 was laid down, CGN-9 had already been launched, and these things with Tirpitz (actually Scharnhorst) will not calm down.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 10: 25
          +5
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          everything with Tirpitz (actually Scharnhorst)

          Oh yes. The bourgeoisie in the 57th lay EM URO of the Farragut type. The first 7. It makes no difference that Tirpitz or Scharnhorst. EM versus LCR, yeah.
        2. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 26 December 2020 15: 31
          +1
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          And Khrushchev, who handed over these dinosaurs from the stocks for scrap metal in the 59th year, of course is completely right.

          It was spinning in my head that something was wrong with the Stalingrad, purely on the machine I followed the stupid text of the quote.

          Stalingrad was canceled immediately, in April 53rd, so their stupidity was obvious to everyone. It was a personal toy of the IVS.
      2. evgen1221
        evgen1221 24 December 2020 10: 50
        +5
        Well, Khrushchev is still a radish-Brezhnev then corrected the fleet all the same. Actually, the entire fleet that we use today is the merit of Brezhnev in many respects.
  • lelik613
    lelik613 24 December 2020 07: 50
    +4
    Professional dementia as a political and military doctrine
  • Anachoret
    Anachoret 24 December 2020 07: 59
    +7
    Unfortunately, the Russian Navy's shipbuilding program is a complete mess in terms of performance and armaments.
    and the pace of construction itself can please only bankers
  • parusnik
    parusnik 24 December 2020 08: 11
    0
    If "money" and other things are not enough ... and missile boats will not help ... The slogan "guns instead of butter" does not roll in our country ..
  • ss-n-22
    ss-n-22 24 December 2020 10: 14
    +3
    at DKBF it was "Restless" and formally it is "Persistent". Where and where the thundering one came from, is known only to the author.
  • Hermit21
    Hermit21 24 December 2020 11: 38
    0
    The world's largest and most useless non-aircraft carrier ship

    20 supersonic heavy anti-ship missiles, 94 long-range missiles, hundreds of short-range missiles, tens of thousands of small-caliber shells, an anti-submarine system. Such a useless ship still needs to be looked for.
    As many missiles as 3-4 Arleigh Burke can fire and a pair of Ticonderogs will simply not be able to reflect the cruiser.

    How many missiles and which ones?
    We have where to build ships, but engines ...

    The production of completely Russian gas turbines has already been mastered. Diesel engines are also starting.
    But the most unpleasant thing on the list is that we will not be able to build anything like it from it in the coming decades.

    By VI? Well then, the icebreakers of the project 22220 look at the author like shit.
    What is 7-8 years of service for a Soviet-built ship? Never mind!

    If you "forget" about the years and decades of downtime at the berth with all that it implies.
    All these tales on the forum "ARMY-20 .." about nuclear destroyers in 50 tons and nuclear aircraft carriers in 000 tons

    And the author, of course, will name their projects.
    However, given the absence of destroyers and higher in the plans, the absence of normal power plants, it all looks somehow very dull.

    Have you rejected the 22350M? And the employees of UEC-Saturn also look at the author as shit.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 12: 54
      +1
      Quote: Hermit21
      20 supersonic heavy anti-ship missiles, 94 long-range missiles, hundreds of short-range missiles, tens of thousands of small-caliber shells, an anti-submarine system. Such a useless ship still needs to be looked for.

      Ага.
      Quote: Hermit21
      How many missiles and which ones?

      6 ships are 48 Harpoons. But in general, the UVP has options.
      Quote: Hermit21
      The production of completely Russian gas turbines has already been mastered.

      There is not a single installation entirely, as far as I am aware.
      Quote: Hermit21
      And the employees of UEC-Saturn also look at the author as shit.

      UEC-Saturn workers need to suffer less nonsense.
      Quote: Hermit21
      Well then, icebreakers of project 22220

      This is please.
      Quote: Hermit21
      If you "forget" about the years and decades of downtime at the berth with all that it implies.

      Yes, here the author, of course, wrote nonsense.
      Quote: Hermit21
      All these tales on the forum "ARMY-20 .." about nuclear destroyers in 50 tons and nuclear aircraft carriers in 000 tons

      And the author, of course, will name their projects.

      Do not roll bags.
      1. Hermit21
        Hermit21 24 December 2020 15: 58
        0
        6 ships is 48 Harpoons

        The problem is that only a few Berks have Harpoons. And what is the use of them against "Petit"? And yes, AUG is now 3-5 pennants.
        But in general, the UVP has options

        No. What they are trying to sculpt from "Ax" is drug addiction and palliatives in the absence of normal RCC.
        There is not a single installation entirely, as far as I am aware.

        The main thing is that we got rid of the Ukrainian dependence on gearboxes for gas turbines. Hopefully this will speed up the commissioning of new ships.
        Yes, here the author, of course, wrote nonsense.

        He wrote nonsense almost everywhere, to say the least
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 16: 22
          +1
          Quote: Hermit21
          The problem is that only a few Berks have Harpoons. And what is the use of them against "Petit"? And yes, AUG is now 3-5 pennants.

          And, so you are still at war with AUG? Then aviation weapons. Starting with Harpoons.
          Quote: Hermit21
          What they are trying to sculpt from "Ax" is drug addiction and palliatives in the absence of normal RCC.

          Quite normal. Two hundred pieces are enough with a slide. And twenty at the same time is enough, if it's serious.
          Quote: Hermit21
          on gearboxes for gas turbines. Hopefully this will speed up the commissioning of new ships.

          Let at least one humanly surrender. Not yet.
          Quote: Hermit21
          He wrote nonsense almost everywhere

          I am not ready to defend the position of Mr. Skomorokhov. For the fleet on this resource some time ago there was a relatively detailed cycle of Andrey from Chelyabinsk.
          1. Hermit21
            Hermit21 24 December 2020 17: 10
            +1
            Then aviation weapons. With Harpoons starting

            S-300 will be shot down by carriers, "Daggers" and "Daggers" - those "Harpoons" that have time to launch. Good luck, what. Although why discuss it if "Petya" stupidly works with "Granites".
            Quite normal

            Mirnyak to drown it norms.
            And twenty at the same time is enough

            "Pete" is not enough. Even if they were released at the same time
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 24 December 2020 17: 19
              +1
              Quote: Hermit21
              S-300 will be shot down by carriers, "Daggers" and "Daggers" - those "Harpoons" that have time to launch.

              Uh-uh No, they won't. S-300s didn’t show themselves very well against combat aircraft.
              Quote: Hermit21
              Although why discuss it if "Petya" stupidly works with "Granites".

              Who?
              Quote: Hermit21
              Mirnyak to drown it norms.

              As if there is such a big difference. If there are enough weapons, then only electronic warfare can help. And the Soviet electronic warfare never was not competitive.
              Quote: Hermit21
              Even if they were released at the same time

              The main thing is to come up at the same time.
              Quote: Hermit21
              "Pete" is not enough.

              Enough, not enough, until you try, you won't know.
        2. Avior
          Avior 25 December 2020 01: 35
          +1
          And the Americans have their own ideas about the conduct of battle. The first, if the unthinkable happens, and there is no aircraft carrier against Petya, they will try, upon detection, to use aviation from the shore with refueling.
          If, nevertheless, it is necessary to conduct a clean battle, then it will be at a relatively short distance, and the first to shoot will be SM-6, SM-2, the purpose of which is to defeat antennas, launching, external elements of weapons in order to reduce the enemy's combat readiness. And after the enemy loses combat readiness, then Harpoons and other Tomahawks will be used to finish off an already incapacitated ship.
          hi
    2. T.Henks
      T.Henks 24 December 2020 14: 28
      -1

      Have you refused the 22350M? And the employees of "UEC-Saturn" also look at the author as shit. For the last word in your sentence, I was already banned twice. And you are forgiven. Protection?
  • Glory1974
    Glory1974 24 December 2020 11: 40
    -1
    In tsarist Russia, after Tsushima and before WWI, 10 battleships were built in 12 years, not counting other trifles.
    In modern Russia, even decommissioned ships cannot be disposed of.
    What is the problem? The country is the same, the people are the same. The manual is different .......... Maybe this is the reason?
    1. Ivanchester
      Ivanchester 24 December 2020 14: 11
      +3
      If I am not mistaken, then in the period indicated by you, not a single battleship was built in the Republic of Ingushetia from beginning to end: "Glory" and "First-Called" were laid down even before Tsushima, and dreadnoughts were put into operation after the start of WWI smile
      So even those distant times there were problems with bureaucracy, embezzlement and changes in the projects of ships already under construction.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 24 December 2020 19: 56
        +3
        Quote: Ivanchester
        If I am not mistaken, then in the period indicated by you, not a single battleship was built in the Republic of Ingushetia from beginning to end: "Glory" and "First-Called" were laid down even before Tsushima

        Since 1907 "Slava", "Andreichi" and "Zlatoust" began to be called LK - but only because the class of battleships disappeared from the classification. This reclassification did not bring them new guns, GEM and SUAO. smile
        Quote: Ivanchester
        and the dreadnoughts were put into operation after the start of WWI

        Absolutely: the first of the "Sev" (the "Seva" itself) was received by the fleet only in November 1914. And the last - "Gangut" - at the end of December 1914 (who were not lucky with the tests).
        Quote: Ivanchester
        So even those distant times there were problems with bureaucracy, embezzlement and changes in the projects of ships already under construction.

        And with funding: the same "Sev" was bookmarked, and the money went in full only a year later.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 24 December 2020 19: 47
      +3
      Quote: glory1974
      In tsarist Russia, after Tsushima and before WWI, 10 battleships were built in 12 years, not counting other trifles.

      In fact, by the beginning of WWI, there was not a single full-fledged battleship in the RIF ranks. In addition to the former EBRs reclassified in them - they received a new class, but remained at the same time battleships.
      "Seva" in the Baltic entered service after the start of the war. "Empresses" on the Black Sea and later. So the RIF met the war with the only modern ship - the Novik EM. smile
  • Romario_R
    Romario_R 24 December 2020 12: 03
    +2
    It is necessary to build a new surface fleet, almost anew. It is expensive to massively restore and re-equip old ships, it is not always possible, and the effect of this will be dubious, because they will still have limited resources and combat capabilities.
  • Selevc
    Selevc 24 December 2020 12: 44
    +6
    I would advise the author of the article to devote the next part to the financial situation of the highest ranks of the Navy and their various deputies ...
    Just give as an example a list of photos of apartments, summer cottages and cars of these persons in which they lived and which they drove until 2000 and what they drive and where they live now ... And do not forget to also indicate the size of salaries, bonuses and others top income ...
    Priorities have changed in Russia long ago - and at every step they are now saving on the state for the sake of the private ... In Russia, not because everything is bad with the fleet because there is no money - but because financial flows are not going there.
    1. Selevc
      Selevc 24 December 2020 13: 19
      +5
      In my opinion, it makes no sense to compare the US and Russian navies, since the navy is such a branch of troops that has evolved over decades. The United States and Russia have too different military history, too different military and political tasks, and too different economic capabilities.
      For example, I can cite the same aircraft carriers:
      For the United States, a powerful fleet is needed as air - this is the basis and core of their entire army - and the Americans understood this since the beginning of the 20th century and systematically created powerful navies
      1. The United States from the west and east is washed by oceans that America needs to control. Control sea communications, your overseas territories, as well as your vassals and potential enemies.
      2. The United States on land on its continent has no serious military opponents.
      3. The USA has always sought to control the South American continent as much as possible - that is, to control the entire Western Hemisphere.
      4. USA traditionally wages wars far from the mother country and has a lot of experience in this.
      5. The United States traditionally leads an aggressive policy and after World War II they got used to fighting a weaker enemy. That is, the US Navy is more often a police baton than a weapon for war with an equal enemy.

      For Russia, aircraft carriers are needed, but this is not a matter of life or death for the country. It has always been that way.
      1. Russia has been waging wars for the past 200 years exclusively along the borders of the metropolis.
      2. Russia has never had a powerful, highly developed infrastructure for building a fleet and also did not have such a system for supporting the Navy as in the United States.
      3. In Russia, very often in military conflicts, the fleet is used as an auxiliary branch of the forces in relation to the ground army.
      4. Over the past 200 years, Russia has never fought overseas and has very little experience in conducting such operations.
      5. Russia traditionally has conflict regions along the perimeter of its land borders and adheres very wisely to defensive tactics at sea.
      6. In Russia, purely geographically, there is a need to simultaneously maintain 4 independent from each other naval groupings, which in the event of war will not help each other in any way - that is, they must be completely autonomous.
      So what's the point in comparing an elephant with a hippopotamus and saying which one is better ??? In my opinion, this is the level of controversy in kindergarten ...
      1. Sancho_SP
        Sancho_SP 24 December 2020 13: 41
        +1
        Simplifying, that's when we have a border from ocean to ocean, then we'll talk)
    2. Starshina
      Starshina 24 December 2020 18: 38
      +1
      It is necessary to check where their children live and if in the West then the CIA holds all of them by the balls and they quietly sabotage the army and the navy !!!
  • timokhin-aa
    timokhin-aa 24 December 2020 13: 00
    +8
    It's too late to do anything with these ships. They were killed. They cannot be restored. That would be ten twelve years ago to take - there would be sense.
    It is late now.
    1. SpbGenn
      SpbGenn 24 December 2020 16: 42
      +2
      In particular, Lazarev could be restored and stuffed now with whatever you want.
    2. Pamir
      Pamir 27 December 2020 23: 53
      +1
      Indeed, Alexander, there is no longer any sense, and the money will go unjustifiably fabulous - space. Yes, and there is no place in the shipyard docks and berths, and if you put them there, take that "Yantar" where the project 956 was built, then with new orders that Yes, and with our efficiency and bureaucracy, it's all the same before cutting. And then where to build new ships? Only docks are useless to occupy. The number of docks and their sizes at any shipyard is limited. If twenty years ago nobody cared about these ships , even now it is generally unprofitable to spend up to 80 percent of their full cost on their restoration. The same TARKR will take as much money and time as the construction of two or even three ships of the second rank. And what is it for now, TARKR, If earlier there were powerful CMGs, where he was always the flagship, the center, he was a dangerous weapon, now he will become the first victim in case of anything, there is simply nothing to provide him with his own warrant. The USSR had other possibilities. And so, it will simply be dozens billion, and t about a hundred to the wind. On one "Veliky" all surface ships are needed for escort. So with these ships, this is already history, for the future lesson how to treat ships uselessly. And now you need to think about the future of the Navy and build for the future, before just what and how much is guaranteed to close the coastal and near sea, underwater, air zones, and how to ensure the wiring of our submarines in these zones. It is better to modernize what we have, but to build a couple of new shipyards. It is untenable to think about the world ocean. There is a theory, but facts this is different, you cannot argue against them.
  • Sancho_SP
    Sancho_SP 24 December 2020 13: 40
    +4
    1. To fight the American or Chinese AUG you still have to shoot ballistic missiles at New York and Beijing, respectively.

    2. Economically, Russia cannot have a fleet similar to China or the United States. No way. What is the point of being able to destroy ONE AUG, if the enemy still has ten?

    3. Classics. What are the tasks facing the Russian ocean-going fleet?
    1. Lex_is
      Lex_is 24 December 2020 14: 21
      +5
      You will still have to fight the American or Chinese AUG by firing ballistic missiles at New York and Beijing, respectively.


      After the covert deployment of US nuclear submarines in positions and a strike on our carriers, it may well turn out that there will be nothing special to shoot at New York.
      1. DmSol
        DmSol 24 December 2020 16: 06
        -1
        now let's not fantasize
      2. Sancho_SP
        Sancho_SP 24 December 2020 19: 34
        +1
        Well, what's next then? If this happens, does it matter how many chtoli aircraft carriers we have?
        1. Lex_is
          Lex_is 25 December 2020 07: 09
          +1
          In order for this not to happen, a normal fleet is needed, covering the deployment of its own SNFM and preventing the deployment of aliens.

          And if you click the flash, then neither the army nor the navy will need anything.
          1. Sancho_SP
            Sancho_SP 25 December 2020 09: 35
            -1
            Are aircraft carriers and destroyers needed to cover missile carriers? Especially under the ice?
            1. Lex_is
              Lex_is 25 December 2020 11: 19
              +1
              The fleet is needed, among other things, to ensure the deployment of strategic nuclear forces.
              What exactly is not clear in this phrase?

              Are aircraft carriers and destroyers needed to cover missile carriers? Especially under the ice?

              I don't know what "missile carrier cover" is, you ask the voices in your head
              Especially under the ice?


              You still need to get to those ices, if someone doesn't know.
              1. Sancho_SP
                Sancho_SP 25 December 2020 12: 27
                0
                What then is a normal fleet?
  • SpbGenn
    SpbGenn 24 December 2020 16: 39
    +4
    There is no technical culture in the fleet to maintain the working condition of equipment.
    The regulatory authorities do not provide measures to bring to responsibility mechanics and others like that.
    With such a state of affairs, there is not enough money to approach those ships.
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 24 December 2020 17: 10
    0
    The author writes emotional nonsense:
    1) almost 30 years have passed since the collapse of the USSR, so most of the described ships are easier to write off than to repair, especially those that have been standing for a long time.
    2) it makes sense to repair only those ships that do not require large investments.
    3) the repair of junk increases the range of spare parts and accessories, so the maintenance of the fleet becomes more expensive.
    4) it is better to build new frigates than it is pointless to invest 100 billion in white elephants 1144 request
    1. Volder
      Volder 26 December 2020 12: 31
      -1
      Quote: DrEng527
      it is better to build new frigates than it is pointless to invest 100 billion in white elephants 1144
      In theory, right. In practice, it is unacceptable. With the abandonment of "Eagles" 1144, the number of frigates and corvettes will NOT increase. That is, frigates 22350 "Severnaya Verf" will not start building faster.
      1. DrEng527
        DrEng527 26 December 2020 13: 01
        +1
        Quote: Volder
        That is, frigates 22350 "Severnaya Verf" will not start building faster.

        what prevents to build? can better solve the bottlenecks in production?
        Quote: Volder
        In theory, right. In practice, it is unacceptable.

        there is nothing more practical than following the correct theory ... request Having invested 200 billion in 10 years, we will teach two white elephants in formation, which will be about 50 years old ... request
        1. Volder
          Volder 26 December 2020 14: 13
          -1
          Quote: DrEng527
          what prevents to build? can better solve the bottlenecks in production?
          In terms of building new workshops, slipways, purchasing equipment, deepening the bottom of the bay and increasing the staff? In fact, a lot is hindering ... And it will be much more expensive than the modernization of two Orlans on the street (in the open air).
          Having invested 200 billion in 10 years we will get two white elephants in the ranks, which will be about 50 years old.
          The modernization will affect only two "Eagles", and the first will be pushed into operation in 2 years. Here you need to understand that ships are just platforms for placing weapons. That is, the age of the ship is of little importance until it thoroughly rusts, the cables rot, and the nuclear engines run out of service. Soviet-built ships can serve for 50 years. That is, the Orlans have 15-20 more years of service reserve!
          1. DrEng527
            DrEng527 26 December 2020 15: 00
            +1
            Quote: Volder
            And it will be much more expensive than the modernization of two "Orlans" on the street (in the open air).

            but a production will be created that will allow the construction of ships of the same type, and not a fleet of samples ... request Let me remind you that before the construction of Sevastopol, shipyards were reconstructed in Ingushetia ...
            Quote: Volder
            In fact, a lot is interfering ...

            I suppose everything is simpler - nepotism interferes ... request
            Quote: Volder
            cables will not rot and nuclear motors will not run out of service.

            you are mistaken - cable insulation has a limited resource, just like reactor steel ... request
            Quote: Volder
            Soviet-built robbers can serve for 50 years. That is, the Orlans have 15-20 more years of service reserve!

            Let me remind you that Nakhimov was built in 1983-88 ... even from the last figure it took 32 years ... it will come out of modernization in 35 years ... request
            1. Volder
              Volder 26 December 2020 21: 09
              -1
              Quote: DrEng527
              but a production will be created that will allow the construction of ships of the same type, and not a fleet of samples ...
              The frigates of pr. 22350 are being built by Severnaya Verf, and the repair and modernization of Orlanov pr. 1144 is being carried out by Sevmash. That is why I said that if project 1144 was abandoned, the number of frigates and the speed of their construction would NOT increase.
              Nakhimov was built in 1983-88 ... even from the last figure it took 32 years ... will come out of modernization in 35 years.
              Fine! It will serve for 15 years. The cables were replaced during the upgrade, as were many other critical systems.
              1. DrEng527
                DrEng527 28 December 2020 13: 43
                0
                Quote: Volder
                and the speed of their construction will NOT increase.

                what prevents them from being laid in Kaliningrad at Yantar? Can Sevmash modernize the nuclear submarine more quickly?
                Quote: Volder
                It will serve for 15 more years.

                And the new frigate will last 30 years ... are we that rich? request
                1. Volder
                  Volder 30 December 2020 12: 21
                  -1
                  Quote: DrEng527
                  what prevents them from being laid in Kaliningrad at Yantar?
                  It is impossible to build different types of ships wherever you want. In addition, Yantar is loaded with other orders.
                  Can Sevmash modernize the nuclear submarine more quickly?
                  The speed of modernization and construction of nuclear submarines does not depend on the need to modernize the Orlans. These are different production sites, different employed personnel ... i.e. no overlays.
                  1. Nemchinov Vl
                    Nemchinov Vl 31 December 2020 16: 52
                    0
                    Quote: Volder
                    Quote: DrEng527
                    what prevents them from being laid in Kaliningrad at Yantar?
                    It is impossible to build different types of ships wherever you want.
                    Why ?! Maybe it's because of the wrong priorities ?! ...
                    Quote: Volder
                    ... Besides, "Yantar" is loaded with other orders.
                    Other ?! What ?! Two BDK ?! .... Or maybe it is worth reducing construction orders subsidiary fleet ?! And then it began to update faster than exactly MAIN COMBAT Ships ?! .... Under loud, - "...On December 11, the naval command revealed the preliminary results of the outgoing year. By that time it was built and handed over to the fleet approx. 40 pennants of different classes... ", as in Ryabov's article, in fact very often it turns out that more than 60% of this amount (or even 67%) it will be the vessels of the auxiliary fleet ?! ...
                    The same is at the expense of the Baltic Shipyard ... Maybe enough to get involved in the construction of icebreakers, when not only EM, frigates, there is a critical shortage ?!
                    1. Volder
                      Volder 6 January 2021 19: 18
                      -2
                      Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                      Maybe it's because of the wrong priorities ?!
                      Priorities are set depending on what a particular plant is capable of, and also the capabilities and workload of other plants are taken into account so that the distribution is rational and more or less even.
                      Two BDK ?! Or maybe it is worth reducing orders for the construction of the auxiliary fleet ?!
                      BDK are not auxiliary ships. The Yantar plant is now almost 100% loaded.
                      in fact, very often it turns out that more than 60% of this number (or even 67%) will turn out to be ships of the auxiliary fleet
                      Yes it is. The auxiliary fleet is easier to build and needs to be updated too. You won't get very far on the Soviet legacy.
                      Maybe it’s enough to get involved in the construction of icebreakers, when not only EM, frigates, are critically lacking ?!
                      Peaceful icebreakers are needed for the development of the Arctic and commercial pilotage of ships. However, multifunctional combat icebreakers are also being built for our Navy. And yes, there are not enough frigates.
                      1. Nemchinov Vl
                        Nemchinov Vl 7 January 2021 21: 01
                        0
                        Quote: Volder
                        Priorities are set depending on what a particular plant is capable of, and also the capabilities and workload of other plants are taken into account,
                        - the answer is NOT TRUE !!! ....
                        Factory "Zvezda", physically unable to supply more than 2 "machine kits" for D-507 engines, (i.e. maximum (!)At most favorable scenario) for TWO "karakurt" per year (!), however, for two and a half years 12 (!), and in four years, - eighteen (!) "Karakurt" ... ?! ...
                        Who allowed it and how ?!... Didn't know the Navy (as a customer) or USC (as a contractor)? !!! ... And you say -
                        Quote: Volder
                        depending on what a particular plant is capable of, and also take into account the possibilities
                        .
                      2. Nemchinov Vl
                        Nemchinov Vl 7 January 2021 21: 21
                        0
                        Quote: Volder
                        .... is now almost 100% loaded.
                        but what ?! I also talked about - priorities (!). request
                        Quote: Volder
                        The auxiliary fleet is easier to build and needs to be updated too.
                        yes no one argues BUT - he won't be able to protect transport communications (!)... tug and tanker, - NOT FRIGITS (!), from the word "absolutely"... No.
                        Quote: Volder
                        .... However, for our Navy, combat multifunctional icebreakers are also being built
                        и they will show it in case of opposition (God forbid), - "your power" (!), anyone - "Burke", "Tikanderoge" or type 055 ... ?! I understand you correctly ?!. winked
                        This is by the way and about "priorities" and about "rationality of loading orders", the same Baltic plant (!). request But after all the "Eagles" were also built there, not that frigates or EM ... ? !!!! ... and you to me -
                        Quote: Volder
                        what is this or that plant capable of
                        and about -
                        Quote: Volder
                        .... so that the distribution is rational and more or less even.
                        . lol what hi
                      3. Volder
                        Volder 8 January 2021 03: 24
                        -1
                        Quote: Nemchinov Vl
                        The Zvezda plant is physically unable to supply more than 2 "car sets" of D-507 engines for TWO "karakurt" engines per year (!), However, within two and a half years, 12 (!) Were laid, and in four years - eighteen (!) "Karakurt"
                        I told you about shipyards. PJSC "Zvezda" is an engineering plant, i.e. NOT shipbuilding. Do you think the situation is better with propulsion systems for frigates? JSC "Plant-Reducer" also cannot produce products for more than 1 frigate per year.
                        Didn't know the Navy (as a customer) or USC (as a contractor)? !!!
                        Of course everyone knew everything. However, the ordered ships give (stimulate) any contractors - equipment manufacturers - to work faster. Without orders for ships, there would be no movement in the supply of equipment for them. This must be clearly understood.
                        The auxiliary fleet will not be able to protect transport communications (!) ... a tug and a tanker, - NOT FRIGITS (!), From the word "absolutely"
                        I understood you. There is no need to build auxiliary vessels. It is good that your opinion is not shared by the leadership of the USC and the Navy.
                        in case of opposition, they will show "their power" (!), to anyone - "Burke", "Tikanderoge" or type 055 ...?!
                        In the presence of missile weapons on combat icebreakers, yes, they will show "their power." Our missiles are no worse, and even better than foreign models. In order not to produce a variety of ships, multifunctional (universal) combat icebreakers are being built. This is rational.
                        This is by the way about "priorities" and "rationality of loading orders", the same Baltic plant (!) ... But there were built and "Orlans"
                        The Baltic shipyard was reoriented to the construction of icebreakers. Someone has to build icebreakers in our country. The shipyards of this plant allow building very large ships, so they placed orders for icebreakers there. If earlier "Russian power was growing with Siberia" (words by M. Lomonosov), now it is growing with the Arctic (words of V. Putin).
  • Sckepsis
    Sckepsis 24 December 2020 17: 55
    0
    Solid stream of water.
  • TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 24 December 2020 18: 07
    -1
    Criminal squandering, given that at the moment, the construction of large ships is impossible in the near foreseeable future too.
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 24 December 2020 20: 34
      +1
      However, helicopter carriers were laid down in Crimea.
      1. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 24 December 2020 22: 58
        -2
        Helicopter carriers, not quite that. Let's see how many of them will be built.
        1. Vadim237
          Vadim237 25 December 2020 15: 19
          0
          It’s more than 200 meters long and a displacement of 25000 tons.
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 25 December 2020 22: 09
            +1
            He is still more of a transport than a combat one, his task is to deliver and drop off. The French Mistral was generally built according to the standards of civil shipbuilding.
  • Starshina
    Starshina 24 December 2020 18: 26
    -1
    These ships in need of repair are a symbol of the helplessness and sloppiness of the command staff !!! For such crimes, in due time they were shot and now they are completely irresponsible --- but for their beloved ones and dachas and houses and yachts and for all this money and resources are found very quickly !!! I especially feel sorry for Admiral Lazarev --- the most powerful ship is the latest achievement of Soviet shipbuilding with a nuclear power plant, with the modernization of which you can install any type of the most modern weapons --- at least laser installations, at least hypersonic missiles, at least powerful radars for all the generated energy will be enough !!! But with such a bosses, they will most likely let them go, and it's a pity, it's a pity !!!
  • Xenofont
    Xenofont 24 December 2020 19: 05
    0
    It remains to offer our effective authorities to build gas carriers and tankers armed with Zircons and Calibers, and things will go oh how quickly. Business will connect quickly and Zvezda will expand its competencies. Both defense and profit for sellers.
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 24 December 2020 19: 23
    +1
    always supported the respected Roman Skomorokhov, ... I am very worried about the listed nuclear submarines waiting for their repair, but they do not have enough money and repair places ... in this situation, the write-off of destroyers and cruisers is quite justified, more important than the nuclear submarine. Dear Roman writes that Petya alone in the sea is not a warrior, right ... but together with all the listed destroyers and cruisers, he would not be a warrior at sea either, because a potential enemy of these destroyers and cruisers has hundreds, he would not be a warrior and together with Kuzya with his SU link. The second problem is that there are no tasks in the DMZ, it turns out that we cannot have a KUG and we ourselves do not know why it would be needed ... but coastal BODs, PLO corvettes, PLO frigates, IPC and even old cruisers as an PLO frigate may well come in handy in case of war they are built, that's right.
  • Local from the Volga
    Local from the Volga 24 December 2020 19: 35
    +1
    "this iron to the bottom" What an insult ?!
  • Mmm.
    Mmm. 24 December 2020 20: 39
    -1
    And what to expect from the comprador elite, even the presence of a mosquito fleet is already an outstanding achievement, but there is still room for growth, Ukraine is an example.
  • Petrol cutter
    Petrol cutter 24 December 2020 21: 36
    +5
    Any fleet, yes, it costs money. And not very small.
    And do not forget about the service staff of this very fleet.
    Many comrades forget that any ship out to sea is serviced and secured from the shore!
    Ships don't just go. As they thought ...
  • Non-fighter
    Non-fighter 24 December 2020 22: 05
    +6
    It turns out interestingly that we have ships that are going to simply be disposed of, despite the fact that they have not only developed their potential, have not started! What is 7-8 years of service for a Soviet-built ship? Never mind!

    Oha, schaz ... "Kirov" its own crew for 10 years uhaidakal, I can't find another word, to the state of "there is no move and will not be." This is for October 1992 if that. To me, the day in the cockpit, our officer from KOS complained at night that he had not guessed the board. He hooked up a heater in the cabin to the side that had been cut down at night. The officers slept with lanterns under their pillows. And a trip to the latrine by reckoning in complete darkness to the next compartment is one of my exploits. And the State Tretyakov Gallery was burned there in my presence, around the spring of 1992. Then no one knew how all this mess with the collapse of the USSR would end, the ship was planned to be put into the factory for repairs on the principle "one side is repaired, the second is rotting. The sides are periodically swapped."
    And the author does not take into account which berth the ships are at. We have a raid base - the norm of life, that is, the ship is at anchor in the base and drives its cars, knocking out in the base, in peacetime (!!!) an invaluable motor resource, which, if anything, is finite :(.
    At the pier, the situation is not much better. For a normal life, the ship and the crew need fresh water, electricity in the right amount and steam. "Kirov" received only water from the shore, electricity - starvation rations, communications, lighting and a galley, steam - all by ourselves. Yes, the ship is at the native berth, and the orderly is in an overcoat in the cockpit, and the people are putting on a second term under a robe, tracksuits and so on so as not to freeze.
  • Usher
    Usher 24 December 2020 22: 45
    +1
    But if you take "Sarych" and stuff it with new types of weapons ... More will fit definitely. And it certainly won't be worse.
    will not fit.
  • Diverter
    Diverter 24 December 2020 22: 49
    -1
    If they had given it to steer, then stepping on pride would have made a large order for ships of rank 1 ........ in Korea. (but not in the North)))). Those. co-production. Naturally, weapons, communications, etc. would be installed in our shipyards. And I would have supplied them to the North, the Black Sea Fleet and the Baltic with the Mediterranean. And for the Pacific Fleet, I would build / repair my own. I would also have bought a license with the construction of a ship engine plant. installations. There is money.
  • Kushka
    Kushka 24 December 2020 22: 58
    +1
    There is a photo with rust above. Saw
    victorious video - teachings on Peter by
    evacuating the wounded from the bowels of the cruiser
    on a stretcher (although the sailor was wearing a helmet
    on a stretcher, but bumps and bruises are
    stuffed a lot while the ladders to the top
    the deck was dragged). And the old sailor has eyes
    well-trained, and you don't want it, but he himself
    clings - there is a luch awry, there
    there the ceiling fell off - everywhere there is rust,
    rust ... Yes, I also had to in Finnish
    to serve as a trophy mine breaker -
    I don't remember that - everything shone. And as a photo
    I looked at the Chinese 956, very sad ..
  • Xnumx vis
    Xnumx vis 25 December 2020 16: 08
    0
    Quote: 30 vis
    Quote: Doccor18
    Now, if the cruisers were profitable ...

    America is brought! And they can bring us. I will not decipher. Smart understands.
  • Sergey Kulikov_3
    Sergey Kulikov_3 25 December 2020 17: 26
    +1
    The author of the article can be guessed from three paragraphs, buffoon that says it all. He would only have more, and of course he will go to plow the seas and oceans with this armada. But why keep these ships buffoon cannot say, he dreams of upgrading old hulls with new personal belongings and sailing the seas forward and rowing money, damn it, defending the homeland from various dangers and looking for AUG in the vastness of the oceans.
    We don't need to compete in the amount of dough thrown out for the maintenance of junk and their crews, we need to do so that even the desire to check our defenses does not arise, but here the mathematics does not work and AUG can multiply by zero not AUG.
  • Volder
    Volder 26 December 2020 12: 19
    -1
    Quote: Roman Skomorokhov
    "Peter the Great" is really useless. One in the sea is not a warrior, and all these tales that he is able to fight in one with an aircraft carrier group are for superpatriots. There is no chance of winning, since ANY American strike team will simply send this iron to the bottom.
    For some reason, the author does not consider such a scenario that an enemy aircraft carrier will be disabled by our nuclear submarine or a long-range bomber, as a result of which not a single carrier-based aircraft will be able to take off. Well, our "Orlan" will definitely eliminate escort ships (destroyers and cruisers), because the anti-ship missiles will have enough ammunition. The author does not understand the elementary logic: during the threatened war period, our cruiser "Orlan" will not be left alone with the enemy's AUG.
    As many missiles as 3-4 Arleigh Burke can fire and a pair of Ticonderogs will simply not be able to reflect the cruiser.
    He will not have to reflect the raid of enemy anti-ship missiles. The range of action of Western "Harpoons" cannot be compared with our "Granites", "Calibers", "Onyxes" and promising "Zircons". That is, our Orlan (as well as Atlant or etc. 22350) will have time to destroy the enemy ships long BEFORE these ships can launch their Harpoon anti-ship missiles.
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 26 December 2020 18: 19
    0
    The combat-decent EM 956 of the project fell due to someone's monstrous mistake - the choice of turbines! And without having served even half a term, especially at the Pacific Fleet, are they preparing for scrap?
    Project 1144 heavy nuclear missile cruiser "Admiral Lazarev". Pacific Fleet. In service since 1984, on conservation since 1992.
    And only 8 years of NDT service?

    The most "venal" h..m..o "in the 90s gathered at the head of the farthest of the fleets. So did the" pro ... s .... li "together with the" Moscow gang "combat fleet.

    ---------
    I believe that if one is smart enough not to "cut" part of the large combat NKs now, tomorrow we will be able to create modernized platforms for air defense, missile defense and strike missile defense on these corps.
  • Navigator
    Navigator 26 December 2020 20: 36
    +1
    "Destroyer of project 956" Thundering "(" Leading "). DKBF. In service from 1989 to 2007, awaiting disposal." Well, I don't remember at the DKBF of the destroyer Thundering. Only EM Persistent remained there. And Restless became a museum.
  • know
    know 27 December 2020 13: 14
    0
    I watched as "Fearless" and "Fighting" were butchered into metal. In the bay "Kozmino"
    A sad sight.
  • Basarev
    Basarev 27 December 2020 23: 21
    +1
    It's hard to admit, but frigates are our ceiling. Frigates are not ocean ships, which means that the ocean is lost to us. And in puddles, ships are not really needed, they will sink all one from the air or from coastal complexes.
  • Alien ...
    Alien ... 28 December 2020 23: 09
    +1
    "Of course, time heals. But when you are cured, it will leave you forever.". (unforgettable M.M. Zhvanetsky)
    Everything that they are now trying to modernize from the remnants of the USSR is high time to be disposed of. Then the whole horror of the state of our fleet would become even more noticeable. Rather, the lack of a fleet as such. I repeat once again that the military construction program 2011-2020 was thrown into the trash. Especially in the surface fleet. We had to have only 10 frigates for the current New Year tree ... We wanted 15 in general ...
    ... Let's not throw away old things - there will be no new ones. This time. Two: old things mask the unsuitability of their owners for a new, modern life ...
  • RAS-159
    RAS-159 1 January 2021 07: 35
    0
    And pompously, under the "panfara" announced construction of a naval base in the Red Sea on the coast of Sudan? Who thought of this game interesting to know? The narrow sea is, in fact, a strait through which it is easy to reach the base from the opposite shore by portable means. Moreover, this is the so-called. the sea is tightly blocked on one side by the Suez Canal, and from the south the narrow, winding and vulnerable Bab el-Mandeb Strait, the entrance to which is guarded by a French base in Djibouti, recently joined by the Chinese. ...
  • Born_of_SSSR
    Born_of_SSSR 1 January 2021 14: 00
    0
    This is how these ships are in the photo, so is our country, devastation and despondency ... It's a pity, but once they were a formidable force. For that, some people were given the opportunity to buy Chelsea FC, and this is just a small example. All the money of the Aligarhs would more than conquer both the repair and the construction of new ships. Only, this will never happen. Everything about .... whether.
  • kytx
    kytx 2 January 2021 03: 35
    0
    now "our" government relies on strategic nuclear forces and tactical lionfish
    the fleet is stupid to build nowhere