Military Review

A prototype engine for PAK DA is being prepared for bench tests

119
A prototype engine for PAK DA is being prepared for bench tests

A prototype of a new engine for a promising long-range aviation complex aviation (PAK DA) has already been created, it is being prepared for bench tests. This was announced by Alexei Sobolev, deputy general director - managing director of UEC-Kuznetsov.


According to Sobolev, a prototype of the new engine is currently at the assembly stage, and by the end of the year it will begin bench tests. The engine documentation was completed in 2020.

This year the engine is made in iron and is being assembled. It will be assembled before the end of the year to start bench tests. Key competencies of the majority of enterprises of the United Engine Corporation are involved in its completion.

- he explained.

At the same time, Sobolev did not give details about the new engine for a promising long-range bomber.

The start of the development of an engine for PAK DA in the United Engine Corporation (UEC, part of Rostec) was announced on October 1, 2018. The contract for the creation of an engine for a promising bomber was concluded between the UEC and the Tupolev company in June 2018.

According to reports, the new engine should provide a flight duration of 30 hours, operate stably at air temperatures from minus 60 to plus 50 ° C and be resistant to the effects of the damaging factors of a nuclear explosion. The service life of the PAK DA engine is determined to be 12 years (subsequently it can be increased to 21 years). Engine thrust is expected to be 23 tf.

119 comments
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  1. Doccor18
    Doccor18 23 December 2020 12: 03
    +9
    So what will be the successor of the glorious traditions of long-range aviation of our Motherland? Supersonic, like the TU-160, or a subsonic stealth platform ...
    1. figwam
      figwam 23 December 2020 12: 11
      +15
      Quote: Doccor18
      Supersonic, like the TU-160, or a subsonic stealth platform ...

      There is no sense in supersonic, there is no need to approach or enter the air defense zone.
      1. Doccor18
        Doccor18 23 December 2020 12: 16
        +4
        And the speed of the platform itself?
        Indeed, even a difference of 300 km / h gives a significant gain in time.
        1. lucul
          lucul 23 December 2020 12: 23
          -8
          And the speed of the platform itself?

          American radars do not see stealth aircraft, so there is no special expediency in supersonic))))
        2. ancient
          ancient 23 December 2020 14: 08
          +3
          Quote: Doccor18
          Indeed, even a difference of 300 km / h gives a significant gain in time.

          And "no difference! 300 km / hour ... a significant gain in range and duration laughing ... so which is the priority? wink
        3. Grigory_45
          Grigory_45 24 December 2020 00: 05
          +2
          Quote: Doccor18
          And the speed of the platform itself?
          After all, even a difference of 300 km / h gives a significant gain in time

          I think the stake is on the long-range cruise missiles themselves, the launch vehicle should not enter the air defense zone at all. Subsonic speed, with all its disadvantages, allows for a much longer flight (patrol) duration
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 24 December 2020 01: 53
            +1
            Quote: Gregory_45
            the stake has been placed on the long-range cruise missiles themselves; the launch vehicle should not enter the air defense zone at all. Subsonic speed, with all its disadvantages, allows for a much longer flight (patrol) duration

            Some cruise missiles have a ramjet engine that requires a certain speed to launch. If the aircraft has insufficient speed to launch a ramjet engine of a cruise missile, then this missile will have to be accelerated with a powder engine, which is additional weight. That is, for example, instead of six rockets, the plane will take only 4 rockets with powder boosters.
            I mean, 300 km / h can be a significant factor for some missiles.
            Where am I mistaken?
            1. Grigory_45
              Grigory_45 24 December 2020 09: 51
              +1
              Quote: Bad_gr
              Quote: Gregory_45
              the stake has been placed on the long-range cruise missiles themselves; the launch vehicle should not enter the air defense zone at all. Subsonic speed, with all its disadvantages, allows for a much longer flight (patrol) duration

              Some cruise missiles have a ramjet engine that requires a certain speed to launch. If the aircraft has insufficient speed to launch a ramjet engine of a cruise missile, then this missile will have to be accelerated with a powder engine, which is additional weight. That is, for example, instead of six rockets, the plane will take only 4 rockets with powder boosters.
              I mean, 300 km / h can be a significant factor for some missiles.
              Where am I mistaken?

              in my opinion, you are not looking for flaws there. The ramjet is launched at speeds of 0,5M and higher. Therefore, if the rocket is not hypersonic, it does not need supersonic to start the engine.
              And it is extremely unwise to sacrifice the flight characteristics of the aircraft, adjusting to the rocket. The launch booster is a small and not heavy thing, the number of missiles taken on board from a missile carrier is usually determined not by the carrying capacity, but by the possibility of placing missiles in a given volume.
              1. Cananecat
                Cananecat 24 December 2020 10: 04
                0
                And to sacrifice the flight characteristics of the aircraft, adjusting to the rocket is extremely unreasonable.

                Ok ... are you considering future missile improvements? What start characteristics can they require?
                In my opinion, supersonic is needed for an airplane, it's just one of the modes.
                1. Grigory_45
                  Grigory_45 24 December 2020 11: 07
                  +1
                  Quote: Canecat
                  In my opinion, supersonic is needed for an airplane, this is one of the modes, just

                  for which you will have to pay a considerable price. To step over the sound barrier, the thrust will have to be doubled, in two Machs - almost eight times. With the appropriate aerodynamic layout. A flying wing to fly supersonic, I suspect, is another problem.
                  Of course, the military would like to have great speed in one object, and the ability to fly low, in the stratosphere, and even in space, fly far and long, and carry as many gifts as possible for "friends". Only constantly have to compromise, prioritizing what is more important in each particular aircraft. well, starting from what the development of technology and technology can offer. By and large, everything always rests on the engine.
      2. Herman 4223
        Herman 4223 23 December 2020 12: 24
        +1
        Supersonic will definitely help to quickly get to the launch area.
        1. ancient
          ancient 23 December 2020 14: 37
          +3
          Quote: Herman 4223
          Supersonic will definitely help to quickly get to the launch area.

          Only if the line (launch area) is completely ... "side by side" wink
          1. Herman 4223
            Herman 4223 23 December 2020 15: 35
            +1
            It can fly two thousand kilometers at supersonic speed, maybe even refueling in flight.
            1. ancient
              ancient 23 December 2020 16: 06
              +3
              Quote: Herman 4223
              Two thousand kilometers at supersonic speed, it can fly

              So you speak for "sho say" ... for the Tu-160? ... And we seem to be for the PAK-da (with a maximum take-off G of 100 tons) wink
              Quote: Herman 4223
              Two thousand kilometers at supersonic speed, it can fly

              Maybe Tu-160 ... in cruise mode M = 1,5 ... and the launch line is at a distance of 5-7 km ... then what to do ...? wassat
              1. Herman 4223
                Herman 4223 23 December 2020 16: 13
                +2
                Have you already defined the line and goals for him? Cruise missiles fly far if anything, and he is their carrier. And not the whole flight at supersonic speed can be, but only some segment. And it will reach the launch line faster than the Tu-95 or the new Pakda. This time can make a difference.
                1. ancient
                  ancient 23 December 2020 16: 37
                  +4
                  Quote: Herman 4223
                  Have you already defined the line and goals for him?

                  I see ... far from aviation as ....... "in the seafood position to the Capital"? wassat
                  Quote: Herman 4223
                  Cruise missiles fly far if anything, and he is their carrier.

                  So what..? belay You can .. "stupidly" burn fuel .. * belay
                  Quote: Herman 4223
                  And it will reach the launch line faster than the Tu-95 or the new Pakda

                  Well, yes .... if only "all the time to sit on the priest exactly and wait for the weather by the sea" wassat
                  And not to spread out in a threatened period in dangerous directions, to increase the lines of reach. wink
                  1. Herman 4223
                    Herman 4223 23 December 2020 16: 52
                    0
                    If for the previously spread out it's great. But the threatened period is a loose concept, airplanes cannot constantly hang in the air. And at the moment of an enemy attack or when it is recognized that it will begin in the near future, the aircraft may be on the ground. After all, they still need to be prepared for departure. It's good if the moment of the enemy's attack becomes known earlier. And if in an hour?
                    1. ancient
                      ancient 23 December 2020 17: 02
                      +6
                      Quote: Herman 4223
                      If for the previously spread out it's great.

                      This is the first and foremost action in aviation as intended.
                      Quote: Herman 4223
                      But the threatened period is a loose concept

                      Strictly regulated definition and procedure.
                      Quote: Herman 4223
                      , planes cannot constantly hang in the air

                      Such an element is also present in the database management techniques ... it is applied from the existing tactical and operational training.
                      Quote: Herman 4223
                      And at the moment of an enemy attack or when it is recognized that it will begin in the near future, the aircraft may be on the ground.

                      For this, such an action plan is provided as - getting out of the blow.
                      Quote: Herman 4223
                      After all, they still need to be prepared for departure

                      The planes are ALWAYS in operational readiness for an immediate departure (time ... very, very small for "all things" bully )
                      Quote: Herman 4223
                      It's good if it becomes known about the moment of the enemy's attack earlier

                      For this, there are "special" kind of VS, which "chew their carrot" bully
                      Quote: Herman 4223
                      And if in an hour?

                      With a head .... wassat with an interval of 30 seconds (on a runway 100 meters wide, it is possible with 15 seconds), the Tu-22M3 regiment "leaves" in ... 5 minutes the whole ... even the staff and those. the train will have time for transport wink soldier
                    2. Nikon OConor
                      Nikon OConor 23 December 2020 21: 25
                      +3
                      Troops included in the strategic nuclear forces (or triad) are in constant combat readiness, if I am not mistaken in the "constant" apart from them, only the Airborne Forces. So pre-flight preparation is carried out constantly and the departure time is minimal.
      3. lopvlad
        lopvlad 23 December 2020 12: 28
        +5
        Quote: figvam
        Supersonic makes no sense anymore


        The military believes that there is such a meaning. Therefore, the production of the Tu-160 has been revived on a modern element base with a more significant use of composites in the airframe design.
        PAK YES is not considered as a replacement for TU-160 + TU-95, but only as a replacement for the subsonic TU-95.
        1. figwam
          figwam 23 December 2020 13: 05
          +6
          Quote: lopvlad
          PAK YES is not considered as a replacement for TU-160 + TU-95, but only as a replacement for the subsonic TU-95.

          The Tu-160 is being modernized in order not to be left without bombers until the PAKDA is adopted.

          Interfax

          On February 14, 2019, the developers and customers approved the final sketch of the PAK DA. The necessary characteristics of the aircraft have been agreed, which will replace the Tu-160, Tu-22M3 and Tu-95 missile-carrying bombers currently in service with the Russian Aerospace Forces. According to sources in the Russian defense industry, “all contract documents necessary for the production of samples have been signed” [14]. In August 2019, technical requirements were approved and the preparatory stages of design began
          1. VO3A
            VO3A 23 December 2020 13: 17
            -2
            Tu-160s were modernized so that they flew with a serviceable modernized complex ... Before that, on most aircraft, the complex was not only old, but still not serviceable. This complex is also molded on the "dying" Tu-22M3, for this modernization of the aircraft was invented, which will be written off in 10 years ... And the release of new ones was needed to restore production and lost technologies to prepare for the production of PAK DA .... And that's enough on the screensavers depict the fantastic appearance of the aircraft, the real view of the PAK YES is on the Internet !!!
            1. figwam
              figwam 23 December 2020 13: 21
              +4
              Quote: VO3A
              And the release of new ones was needed to restore production and lost technologies to prepare for the production of PAK DA ..

              The first serial PAKDA will only begin to be made in 10 years, so the Tu-160 needs to remain in service for another 20 years, so far there is nothing without it.
              1. VO3A
                VO3A 23 December 2020 13: 30
                -3
                without it yet.

                That's a moot point. This "stadium" is visible on all radars and the airfields where it can be based is easy to count. It is very easy to track and visible to everyone else on the ground. A very costly and uneconomical plane, but rather a symbol of the power of the state, no more ... Yes, and missiles from the ground fly in the same way as from it over the home airfield, there is no difference ... And the maximum that he has time is to take off, and in the best case ... he is not on duty, and the preparation time with missiles is huge ..
                1. Nikon OConor
                  Nikon OConor 23 December 2020 21: 35
                  +1
                  As a pilot, do you assert? It's just that from my experience I know RS 20 (Satan-NATO), after 30 years (the service life has expired), every year there was an extension of the term (they called the specialists of the independent YuzhMash) for a year, and was not on duty until the replacement (at least p. Clear). Why is it wrong with triad planes?
              2. fa2998
                fa2998 23 December 2020 20: 04
                0
                Sergei, what an optimist you are with us! In ten years, you can only roll out the FIRST experimental, experienced. Until the serial (if any) not earlier than 2040.
                Do you want to bet? yes
            2. Guru
              Guru 23 December 2020 13: 36
              +6
              VO3A (Andrey)
              And enough to depict the fantastic appearance of the aircraft on the screensavers, the real view of the PAK YES is on the Internet !!!

              And where is he? laughing Really amused, the developers do not know yet, which means you know belay
              Well, what a PAK-YES he is !!!
              Option № 1

              Option № 2

              Option № 3

              Option № 4

              And that's just a little. hi
              1. VO3A
                VO3A 23 December 2020 13: 41
                -13%
                Not only do you know nothing, you also don’t know how to work on the Internet. The appearance of the PAK DA is approved and known. Play on with your options and laugh, just don't overdo it ....
              2. VO3A
                VO3A 23 December 2020 14: 02
                -6
                For you and other storytellers and .... And stick your minus to yourself on ....
                https://naukatehnika.com/pak-da-obrel-svoe-liczo.html
                Learn to surf the internet and find the right sites ...
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. Guru
                  Guru 23 December 2020 14: 50
                  +9
                  Learn to surf the internet and find the right sites ...

                  Why are you so irrepressible. Ok let's start tongue
                  This option was in the article above

                  Or like this, to be more reliable.

                  But no - these are FANTASTIC options winked
                  And this one is true for you:

                  And you consider it reliable data from a popular scientific Internet publication, okay. but let's read at least a few lines.
                  The PAK DA power plant will be composed of bypass turbojet engines with a thrust of 23 tf - probably, there will be four of them, and they will be unforgeable.
                  Content Source: https://naukatehnika.com/pak-da-obrel-svoe-liczo.html
                  naukatehnika.com.

                  Explain to me how it is PROBABLY there will be four engines, but in the picture of your resource?
                  And more sir !!! The author of the article reviews the topic and we (chatlan - if you want) discuss the topic of the article and not the picture. Because the discussion of Pictures will be when the author of the article asserts the reliability of the picture itself.
                  P \ S But the minus is not mine. hi
                  1. VO3A
                    VO3A 23 December 2020 14: 55
                    -9
                    This is not my resource! And you also have to think! So it is possible to put two engines instead of 4! A similar option with PD-35, or maybe not quite the same ...
                3. ancient
                  ancient 23 December 2020 14: 55
                  +6
                  Quote: VO3A
                  /naukatehnika.com/pak-da-obrel-svoe-liczo.html

                  To be honest .. not impressed by the site, and especially .. "draftsman" .. some kind of barrel with wings.
                  The height of the winglets is 8,5 meters ... if we assume that the height of the winglets in the district is 2,5-3 meters ... what is the diameter of the fuselage, if the PD-35 fan is +3,1 meters, and the engine itself in the region of 4 meters in diameter? belay
                  1. VO3A
                    VO3A 23 December 2020 15: 00
                    -1
                    Look at B-2 as well. And impressed or not impressed - this is the second moment ... At least, at least, closer to reality than all the other fantasy pictures put together ... There is a basis for a real assessment and discussion. If we consider that there is a layout and has already been sold, then it looks like the truth ...
                    1. ancient
                      ancient 23 December 2020 15: 08
                      +2
                      Quote: VO3A
                      Look at B-2 and its development

                      There you just look at the dimensions of the General Electric F118 engine and our PD-35 and ... it becomes ... sad and not clear
                      Quote: VO3A
                      .At least closer to reality than all the other fantasy pictures put together

                      It’s hard to disagree drinks
                      1. VO3A
                        VO3A 23 December 2020 15: 28
                        -4
                        In general, I do not approve of this option ... PAK YES should be lighter, with a takeoff weight of 60 tons, well, 80, no more ... It is better to make a PAK YES based on the Su-34, 30 engines and PAK FA technologies .. .Because everything is there! Take the lineup of the Su-34, but in the STEALTH version, increase it slightly in size so that everything fits into the internal compartment between the engines, and also make it, this compartment, removable! So that the plane can be used with external suspensions ... Now the project is ready and in 3 years we are already implementing it in a particular plane ... The whole base is there ...
                      2. ancient
                        ancient 23 December 2020 15: 38
                        +3
                        Quote: VO3A
                        PAK YES should be lighter, with a takeoff weight of 60 tons, well, 80, no more ..

                        good
                        Quote: VO3A
                        Better to make a PAK DA based on the Su-34, izd. 30 engines and PAK FA technologies.

                        This is also my .. "not a sales dream." Back in 1996 ... I went around the "bike" that the General Staff of the Air Force "matured the idea" to re-equip two YES regiments from Tu-22M3 to Su-34 .. .but so it remained a dream. crying
                      3. VO3A
                        VO3A 23 December 2020 15: 44
                        0
                        This is not a dream, this is a belated necessity, but it will soon be realized out of hopelessness ... The Su-34 can carry between the engine nacelles any new missile if desired ... Everything will fall apart, but the Su-34 will remain and replace everyone ... And it is necessary to make 30 of them every year and reach this pace as soon as possible ... When these cretins understand this ... Install new engines that are, and work with invisibility using PAK FA technologies ... And not release unnecessary ones Tu-160M, modernize any rubbish, and not plan to release new monsters in the form of PAK YES, which may appear in 20 years ... Here is the state approach, cheap and cheerful ... And with refuelers, in general, all questions are removed. ..Chew gentlemen-sawers ...
                      4. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 23 December 2020 16: 51
                        0
                        Quote: VO3A
                        This is not a dream, this is a belated necessity, but it will soon be realized out of hopelessness ... The Su-34 can carry any new missile between the engine nacelles if desired ...

                        And what else should he hang between the gondolas, so that the flight range would quadruple (as a strategist) with at least twice the bomb load (for comparison, the Tu-160 has up to 40 tons)?
                      5. VO3A
                        VO3A 23 December 2020 17: 02
                        -1
                        Can't you answer this question yourself? Why range strategist if he has long-range missiles? He launches missiles without entering the detection zone! And where will this "stadium" not be found? In theory, only if you fly to the North! But they see him already on earth! Spy satellites hang over Russia, and new ones with mirror telescopes generally see everything ?! In theory, he should launch his rockets on the ground while standing in the hangar !!! And then why is it needed? With refuelers, simply the question of the radius disappears ...
                        And most importantly, if you shoot down an aircraft that can destroy 20 targets with its 20 missiles, it will not destroy a single one ... And 20 aircraft with one missile from different small airfields will not shoot down all, and they will destroy some of the targets with missiles with nuclear weapons, but here and just one hit is enough to sober up the enemy! Do you think?
                      6. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 23 December 2020 18: 12
                        +1
                        Quote: VO3A
                        Why range strategist if he has long-range missiles?

                        Quote: VO3A
                        In theory, he should launch his rockets on the ground while standing in the hangar !!!

                        Will he throw free-fall cast iron bombs while standing in the hangar?
                        In Afghanistan, there was such a need during the operation on Panshera, when strategists from the alliance entered to bomb the object.
                        And it should not be forgotten that unlike submarines and strategic ballistic missiles, aircraft (like ships) have the ability to "demonstrate strength." That is, when an airplane with nuclear missiles on board is patrolling near your borders, it puts a lot of pressure on your nerves and contributes to a faster search for compromises.
                      7. The comment was deleted.
                      8. Grigory_45
                        Grigory_45 24 December 2020 00: 21
                        +1
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        Will he throw free-fall cast iron bombs while standing in the hangar?
                        There was such a need in Afghanistan

                        American B-2s calmly coped with this task. In the same Afghanistan. PAK YES is conceptually very similar to Spirit.
                      9. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 24 December 2020 02: 16
                        +1
                        Quote: Gregory_45
                        American B-2s calmly coped with this task.
                        So the topic was:
                        Quote: VO3A
                        Why does a strategist need range,

                        The meaning of what I have written, among other things, is to drop ordinary bombs. And that would be enough bombs to complete the task. And since there are a lot of bombs to lift and deliver far away, you need to have a lot of fuel with you, it turns out that an aircraft of the corresponding size is obtained,
                        ~~~~~~~~~~ B-2 Specifications ~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        Crew: ----------- 2 people
                        Length: ----------- 20,90 m
                        Wingspan: - 52,12 m
                        Height: ----------- 5,10 m
                        Wing area: 460 m²
                        Weight:
                        empty: --------------------------------- 71 kg
                        normal takeoff weight: - 152 600 kg
                        maximum takeoff weight: 171 kg
                        fuel weight: ----------------------- 73 000 kg
                        payload mass: ---- up to 22 kg (up to 730 kg after modernization)
                      10. Grigory_45
                        Grigory_45 24 December 2020 09: 56
                        0
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        The meaning of what I have written, among other things, is to drop ordinary bombs. And that would be enough bombs to complete the task.

                        this depends mainly on the design of the ammunition compartment. Does it have cast iron locks and sufficient volume
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        And since there are many bombs to lift and deliver far, you need to have a lot of fuel with you

                        or relatively economical engines and subsonic altitude flight profile. PAK YES - "hundred tonnage", do you think it will take a little fuel? Well, nobody canceled refueling.
          2. nobody75
            nobody75 24 December 2020 16: 17
            +1
            What for? The future of strategic aviation in local conflicts and during the breakthrough of air defense is the carrier of loitering ammunition. And this requires the dimensions of the strategist and his avionics ...
            Sincerely
        2. Grigory_45
          Grigory_45 24 December 2020 00: 18
          0
          Quote: VO3A
          In general, I do not approve of this option ... PAK YES should be lighter, with a takeoff weight of 60 tons, well, 80, no more ... It is better to make a PAK YES based on the Su-34, 30 engines and PAK FA technologies .. .Because everything is there! Take the lineup of the Su-34, but in the STEALTH version, increase it slightly in size so that everything fits into the internal compartment between the engines, and also make it, this compartment, removable!

          and you get B-58 "Hasler" ..)
        3. Boris Chernikov
          Boris Chernikov 25 December 2020 13: 15
          -3
          how simple everything is .. it's stupid Soviet engineers spent 5-8 years on development .. And here in 3 years you can make a new plane, and even with a removable bomb bay .. Enchanting .. it turns out that PAK YES is stupidity, But to set up experiments to obtain in theory the same results as in PAK DA .. And yes ... the rate of 30 aircraft per year ... this is a circus just some ...
  • Boa kaa
    Boa kaa 23 December 2020 19: 34
    +2
    Quote: VO3A
    real view of PAK YES is on the Internet

    Well, so what's the matter !?
    Do good to the audience: show us the miracle-yuda ... fellow
    And there will be happiness for everyone! laughing
  • lopvlad
    lopvlad 25 December 2020 15: 40
    0
    Quote: figvam
    The Tu-160 is being modernized in order not to be left without bombers until the PAKDA is adopted.


    the modernization of the Tu-160 in service actually ended with the Tu-160M ​​aircraft.
    The TU-160M2 is actually a new aircraft in which only the shape of the airframe remains from the TU-160M ​​and all the filling from the avionics to the engine is completely new.
    The Ministry of Defense plans to increase the total number of TU-160s to 2 with the help of the TU-160M50, but now Russia has only 16 such aircraft of various modifications. In fact, Russia will have to build dozens of new "white swans" whose service life is at least 30 years.
    It finally dawned on the military that the PAK DA was not able to fully replace the TU-160, which are much ahead of their time in modern times. in service and no one would release new TU-160.
    By the way, they decided not to give up the Tu-22, but to resume the production of new Tu-22M3M aircraft, which will have only a glider from the old Tu-22M3 and the flight range, thanks to the installation of more economical NK-32-02, will grow to 10 thousand kilometers.
    So, at the moment, only the Tu-95 will go down in history, although UEC "Klimov" proposes upgrades for it that will increase the resource of its engines by 4 times. But it looks like the military decided to further modernize it.
    Nobody intends to abandon hypersound in strategic aviation in favor of subsonic ones.
  • ancient
    ancient 23 December 2020 14: 39
    +1
    Quote: lopvlad
    the military believes that there is such a meaning

    exactly .. the opposite. And the Tu-160 was revived because ... there was a CD and there was a base ... well, the flight characteristics correspond to the customer's requirements even at present wink
    1. VO3A
      VO3A 23 December 2020 14: 48
      -2
      Our customer has not only requirements, he does not even have his own opinion! He takes what the industry gives him ... Or rather, it is one and the same, in the worst traditions of the era of stagnation in the last years of the USSR ... Okay !!!
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 23 December 2020 17: 33
        +3
        Our customer has not only requirements, he does not even have his own opinion! There are already quite tough ones.
  • Grigory_45
    Grigory_45 24 December 2020 00: 15
    +1
    Quote: lopvlad
    the military believes that there is such a meaning, so the production of the Tu-160 has been revived.

    production of Tu-160 was restarted with only one purpose - not to be left completely without strategic aviation. Until the arrival of a replacement, which PAK DA should become.
  • Ratmir_Ryazan
    Ratmir_Ryazan 23 December 2020 12: 50
    +3
    There is a sense in supersonic - it is the speed of reaching the missile launch line.

    Therefore, in Russia, the Tu-160 is left in service and modernized, and the PAK DA will replace the Tu-22M and Tu-95.

    PAK DA will have a subsonic cruising speed throughout the entire visibility and will be made using low-signature technology.
    1. Fan-fan
      Fan-fan 23 December 2020 13: 47
      -1
      There is a sense in supersonic - it is the speed of reaching the missile launch line.
      The speed of reaching the missile launch line in this case does not matter, since the missiles themselves are subsonic.
      1. Guru
        Guru 23 December 2020 15: 16
        +3
        The speed of reaching the missile launch line in this case does not matter, since the missiles themselves are subsonic
        Wow laughing This means the time / speed of entering the enemy's air defense zone, reaching the missile launch line, launching missiles, leaving the air defense zone. Doesn't matter to you?
      2. Ratmir_Ryazan
        Ratmir_Ryazan 25 December 2020 13: 41
        0
        The speed of reaching the missile launch line in this case does not matter, since the missiles themselves are subsonic.


        In your opinion, there is no place to rush in a war?)) After 1 hour to bomb or after 3 hours without a difference, all the same, missiles still fly for 3-4 hours))).


        Speed ​​is important, very important. Only we will not be able to make all the aircraft like the Tu-160, therefore, for simpler tasks, the aircraft is made simpler and cheaper, both in cost and in operating cost.
    2. ancient
      ancient 23 December 2020 14: 57
      -1
      Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
      There is a sense in supersonic - it is the speed of reaching the missile launch line.

      Absolutely pointless occupation ...... "you will gobble up the fuel and you won't get anywhere wassat
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 23 December 2020 17: 37
        +4
        This is how scramjet engines will appear on airplanes, and fuel consumption will decrease sharply - and a turbojet engine with an afterburner, of course, will burn the fuel in tons to maintain supersonic flight.
  • El Chuvachino
    El Chuvachino 23 December 2020 14: 54
    0
    Quote: figvam
    it is no longer necessary to approach or enter the air defense zone.

    Then why focus on stealth?
  • URAL72
    URAL72 24 December 2020 10: 29
    +2
    I disagree! Some weapons require a high carrier speed. The dagger on the 31st was so hung up in vain. Or scramjet. True, we still need height, but how can we unhook it in the dense layers of the atmosphere? Again, speed and altitude increase range. And yes, subsonic is more economical.
  • nobody75
    nobody75 24 December 2020 12: 43
    0
    There is no sense in supersonic, there is no need to approach or enter the air defense zone.

    And what about the inter-theater transfer? In Ukrainka for example?
    Sincerely
  • lucul
    lucul 23 December 2020 12: 21
    -2
    So what will be the successor of the glorious traditions of long-range aviation of our Motherland? Supersonic, like the TU-160, or a subsonic stealth platform ...

    Ideally, a ceiling of 50 km and the ability to stay in the air without refueling for 48 hours is an ideal replacement for a satellite)))
  • Ros 56
    Ros 56 23 December 2020 12: 28
    -1
    For what purpose are you interested, dear? bully
    1. Doccor18
      Doccor18 23 December 2020 12: 37
      +4
      Quote: Ros 56
      For what purpose are you interested, dear? bully

      Mother-in-law is interested laughing repeat
  • Guru
    Guru 23 December 2020 13: 22
    +4
    So what will be the successor of the glorious traditions of long-range aviation of our Motherland? Supersonic, like the TU-160, or a subsonic stealth platform ..

    Most likely PAK-DA will come to replace the "Bears"
  • Starover_Z
    Starover_Z 23 December 2020 13: 41
    +3
    Quote: Doccor18
    So what will be the successor of the glorious traditions of long-range aviation of our Motherland? Supersonic, like the TU-160, or a subsonic stealth platform ...

    Why break a spear now, - It will take off - we'll see!
  • ancient
    ancient 23 December 2020 14: 36
    +2
    Quote: Doccor18
    Supersonic, like the TU-160, or a subsonic stealth platform ...

    And what domestic aircraft engine can reach 23 tons of thrust without an afterburner.
    And if without ... what size will it be? belay
  • venik
    venik 23 December 2020 16: 24
    +3
    Quote: Doccor18
    So what will be the successor of the glorious traditions of long-range aviation of our Motherland? Supersonic, like the TU-160, or a subsonic stealth platform ...

    =========
    I think that in the foreseeable future both this and that will persist .... Too varied tasks are facing Long-Range Aviation - within the framework of a single scheme, it cannot be solved! And so: the disadvantages of one scheme are compensated by the advantages of another ... and vice versa! hi
  • Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 25 December 2020 22: 32
    -2
    have already said that PAK DA will fly subsonic, i.e. up to 1 100 km / h .. This is a replacement for the Tu-95 .. a subtle missile carrier, which can be anywhere on the planet, launch missiles and go back. lol then it is only necessary to bother the tanker on its base ... so that there is, well, complete secrecy
  • rocket757
    rocket757 23 December 2020 12: 05
    +14
    What should we notice, note? Our engine building has come to life and is developing!
    We are waiting for positive results.
    1. lucul
      lucul 23 December 2020 12: 18
      +1
      What should we notice, note? Our engine building has come to life and is developing!
      We are waiting for positive results.

      This is yes. If development from scratch is generally excellent.
      But for the liberals, of course, Putin leaked everything))))
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 23 December 2020 13: 57
        +3
        The top ones to praise / scold ... on facts and events. When the right thing is going on, we will praise. When things are not ah, praise is not accepted.
        Scales, in short, only for garlic.
  • yfast
    yfast 23 December 2020 12: 07
    -4
    What are its main non-secret advantages in comparison with the old ones?
    1. Doccor18
      Doccor18 23 December 2020 12: 10
      +1
      There will be more questions than answers. It remains only to wait for the time when it takes off ...
    2. lucul
      lucul 23 December 2020 12: 25
      -4
      What are its main non-secret advantages in comparison with the old ones?

      Yes, the same as in the Su-57 - supersonic without afterburner, and if the engine hours are raised to 20, then in general there will be a fairy tale))))
      1. Grigory_45
        Grigory_45 24 December 2020 00: 30
        0
        Quote: lucul
        Yes, the same as in the Su-57 - supersonic without afterburner

        what supersonic sound if PAK YES - subsonic?
    3. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 23 December 2020 12: 58
      +2
      Quote: yfast
      What are its main non-secret advantages in comparison with the old ones?

      Higher efficiency, longer motor life, less time for maintenance.
      I think the option is yes to the PD-14 base. Sense to develop from scratch?
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 23 December 2020 17: 40
        +1
        This is most likely a deeply modernized NK 56 with a thrust increased to 23 tf.
        1. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 23 December 2020 18: 16
          +1
          Quote: Vadim237
          This is most likely a deeply modernized NK 56 with a thrust increased to 23 tf.

          There was information that it was based on NK-32, but let's see what happens in fact.
      2. Grigory_45
        Grigory_45 24 December 2020 00: 29
        0
        Quote: Bad_gr
        I think the option is yes to the PD-14 base

        most likely on the basis of NK-32 all the same ... At least somehow infa slipped through that they were going to do just that, but with a new gas generator.
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. ism_ek
      ism_ek 23 December 2020 14: 42
      +2
      Quote: yfast
      What are its main non-secret advantages in comparison with the old ones?

      The temperature in the combustion chamber is about 200 degrees higher than that of the previous generation engines, while maintaining the same resource.
  • Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 23 December 2020 12: 12
    -6
    I think it will be a long story
    1. knn54
      knn54 23 December 2020 12: 24
      +1
      Rostec promises to launch in 2022
    2. Orange bigg
      Orange bigg 23 December 2020 12: 38
      +1
      Quote: Ryaruav
      I think it will be a long story


      The main thing is that the engine is already in the gland, the main thing is to bring it to mind and test it now.
      SAMARA, 23 Dec - RIA News. The first prototype of the engine for the promising Russian PAK DA bomber, named "Product RF", is being assembled at the UEC-Kuznetsov enterprise (part of the United Engine Corporation "Rostec"). The Deputy General Director - Managing Director of the plant Alexei Sobolev told the journalists about it.
      "The first engine" in hardware "has already been manufactured, is now being assembled and will be ready for bench tests by the end of the year. We plan to start them early next year," he said.

      According to Sobolev, this power plant is the result of extensive cooperation of almost all enterprises belonging to the UEC.
      "This broad cooperation allowed us to complete the development of drawings in a fairly short time, the documentation was actually completed this year, and in parallel, the product was designed in full digital, which allowed us to quickly launch the production of the first prototype," he said, adding that in the next several more such engines will be manufactured for testing.

      https://ria.ru/20201223/bombardirovschik-1590498723.html
  • midivan
    midivan 23 December 2020 12: 14
    +3
    Yes so what Documentation and in the same year dvigun, for me personally, this year 2020 acquires more colorful colors than it is commonly believed with pandemics and any other evil spirits smile
    1. Orange bigg
      Orange bigg 23 December 2020 12: 55
      +2
      So the serial NK-32-02 (aka Product P) was taken as a basis. The Product of the Russian Federation was not developed from scratch.
      1. Genry
        Genry 23 December 2020 13: 31
        +3
        Quote: OrangeBigg
        the serial NK-32-02 was taken as a basis

        Apparently it will be a subsonic version, which is also suitable for remotorization of the An-124 Ruslan.
        1. Orange bigg
          Orange bigg 23 December 2020 13: 36
          0
          Absolutely.
  • Ros 56
    Ros 56 23 December 2020 12: 31
    +2
    This is good news, and if it finds widespread use, it will generally be beautiful.
    1. Orange bigg
      Orange bigg 23 December 2020 12: 58
      +2
      It would be nice to replace the Ukrainian D-18Ts on the An-124 with our engine for the PAK DA. And there, and there thrust at takeoff mode is 23 tons.
      1. Tooks
        Tooks 23 December 2020 13: 15
        -4
        Alas, there is nothing to change. Apparently not expected.
        1. Orange bigg
          Orange bigg 23 December 2020 13: 22
          0
          How is that nothing? And the RF product has the same thrust of 23 tons as the D-18T?
          1. Tooks
            Tooks 23 December 2020 13: 27
            +1
            The fact is that the RF has a very low degree of bypass (like the progenitor). It is understandable - an engine with a high bypass ratio in Tu-160 and PAK-DA simply cannot be crammed because of its size. So this is not suitable for the An-124, first of all because of the high fuel consumption.
            Most likely An-124 will live out their days with what they have. There is only one way out - a new heavy-duty truck with its own engine.
            1. Orange bigg
              Orange bigg 23 December 2020 13: 32
              +3
              So this is not suitable for the An-124, first of all because of the high fuel consumption.
              Most likely, the An-124 will live out their days with what they have.

              This is your guess. No more. An-124 is needed first of all by the military, and for them the main thing is that the planes fly, they will think about fuel consumption last. An-124 is not a commercial project like the same MS-21. It is a matter of the country's defense. In terms of size, the RF product will completely replace the D-18T.
              1. Tooks
                Tooks 23 December 2020 13: 39
                +1
                If you think so, then of course. How many An-124 does the military have? I personally don't know, but I don't think that much. Carry out a remotorization of one and a half dozen aircraft? It's expensive anyway. And in terms of time - the development of documentation and the actual work. At our pace, this will take at least 10 years.
                There is also something like the An-124 at Volga-Dnepr.
                In any case, the task is difficult and it is not a fact that they will be engaged in it. Is it better to intensify work on a new truck? I look periodically there are materials on "Elephant". In principle, the plane seems to be of the same class as the An-124. Maybe the engine will be made on the basis of PD-14. The PD-8 demonstrator seems to be threatened to be launched next year. There's also PD-35. I don’t know how the priorities will be set.
                1. Orange bigg
                  Orange bigg 23 December 2020 13: 46
                  0
                  At our pace, this will take at least 10 years.

                  How many years will it take to develop the Elephant from scratch, plus the time to create and fine-tune the PD-35, 4 of which will be equal in thrust to 6 D-18Ts (23 tons each)? and now. So the remotorization of the An-124 to engines. Product of the Russian Federation is the best option.
                  I look periodically there are materials on "Elephant". In principle, the plane seems to be of the same class as the An-124.

                  With 4 PD-35, he will have traction like Mriya with her 6 D-18T, whose classmate he, in fact, will be.
                  1. Tooks
                    Tooks 23 December 2020 13: 51
                    +1
                    In general, I do not understand for which aircraft our PD-35 is made. For the IL-96? The aircraft needs to be practically redesigned for this engine. Truck? Why does he need such an engine?
                    In principle, if it presses, then you can put the Russian Federation on the An-124. Or is it better to make PD-24 based on PD-14? Perhaps this would be the best option.
                    It is a pity that NK-93 was buried in due time. If he increased the thrust, then he would fit perfectly on the An-124.
                    1. Orange bigg
                      Orange bigg 23 December 2020 14: 01
                      +2
                      In general, I do not understand for which aircraft our PD-35 is made. For the IL-96?

                      For the joint Russian-Chinese passenger wide-body, for the Russian commercial passenger wide-body Il-96-400, for the Elephant.
                      Or is it better to make PD-24 based on PD-14?

                      On the basis of PD-14, only PD-14A (12 tons) and PD-14M (16 tons) can be made. All other engines, be they PD-8, PD-24, PD-35, are separate developments both in terms of materials and in terms of engine designs. The idea of ​​the PD-24 is not bad and I hope it will be, but alas, not soon.
                      It is a pity that NK-93 was buried in due time.

                      Now, why remember it? New time. New engines are needed for modern requirements. We must look forward, not backward.
                      1. Tooks
                        Tooks 23 December 2020 14: 09
                        +1
                        I'm afraid the Chinese will not wait for our engine and will install an American or English one. Although they may have to wait if relations with the Americans continue to deteriorate further.
                        For the IL-96 it is very doubtful. Who will do this work? "Il" is occupied by Il-114, Il-112. It is not very clear what is there with the Il-106 and the replacement of the An-12. And will we be able to produce an analogue of the B-777 in sufficient quantities for expediency.
                        For a new truck, PD-35 does not fit at all - two is not enough, four is a lot.
                        It is clear that the PD family based on PD-14 is actually independent engines, but we are not talking about development from scratch, but based on the existing gas generator. With proper organization of work, this can significantly gain time.
                        Well, let's see what comes out of all this.
                      2. Orange bigg
                        Orange bigg 23 December 2020 14: 20
                        +1
                        For the IL-96 it is very doubtful. Who will do this work? "Il" is occupied by Il-114, Il-112.

                        Why is it doubtful? Why do you think the new Il-96-400 was actually built, albeit with 4 PS-90A1? To work out the technological basis for the modification of the Il-96-400 with two PD-35 PD-2. Why is Il-35-114 so busy? -300.
                        but based on the existing gas generator.

                        How are you going to make a gas generator for PD-14 on the basis of the PD-35 gas generator? Completely different temperature levels. Different materials. In PD-35, in general, everything is for the first time and again. This was not even in the USSR.
                      3. Tooks
                        Tooks 24 December 2020 08: 49
                        +1
                        You probably have a very bad idea of ​​the complexity of the task of converting a four-engine aircraft into a twin-engine one. And further. How many 777/767 and A-330 aircrafts do we have? I don’t think there’s even a hundred. So is it worth building a garden for a hundred (theoretically) planes?

                        And about the gas generator. Well, not as literal. There is a design and technological groundwork, using which it is really possible to design a whole family of engines.
                      4. Orange bigg
                        Orange bigg 24 December 2020 09: 35
                        +1
                        So is it worth building a garden for a hundred (theoretically) planes?

                        And what will you fly when the sanctions are introduced and the supply of spare parts for Western aircraft is denied? to produce no planes at all, and only buy everything in the West, but countries become rich when they produce something, albeit at first not very qualitatively, but over time the quality grows, and business develops (example of China), and those who argue how you turn in the underdeveloped poor dependent countries. In the 90s, we already passed this slogan we will buy everything for money from oil in the West, then led the economy to disaster, since production was destroyed. So I will answer your question. What a business , development. And if you sit and pick your nose, you will never build a strong economy.
                      5. Tooks
                        Tooks 24 December 2020 09: 41
                        +1
                        I'm talking about the economy, and you are talking about politics.
                        This, of course, must be done, and to begin with, oust foreigners from domestic lines. But this requires will. Let's hope that's enough.
                      6. Orange bigg
                        Orange bigg 24 December 2020 09: 55
                        +1
                        I'm talking about the economy, and you are talking about politics.

                        I mean that there will be no economy, in principle, if you do not produce goods and, as a result, do not trade them at least in the domestic or foreign markets. Countries that are friendly with their heads always support their producers, introducing the same protective duties. deductions to your budget, the budget of the country. Do you believe in the hand of the market, which for verification turned out to be cleverly disguised by the machine hand of Western manufacturers to hack the markets in favor of their goods?
                      7. Tooks
                        Tooks 24 December 2020 10: 03
                        +1
                        So you and I seem to be only "for". The only thing left is to produce a sufficient number of airplanes and to be taken by our a / c.
                      8. Orange bigg
                        Orange bigg 24 December 2020 10: 12
                        +1
                        That's right. We have to work up our sleeves, and do not ask if we should or should not produce airplanes.
        2. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 23 December 2020 21: 04
          -1
          Quote: OrangeBigg
          We must look forward, not backward.

          "... What's the use of looking forward if the whole experience is from behind? .." ©
  • Svetlana
    Svetlana 23 December 2020 13: 11
    +2
    Quote: figvam

    There is no sense in supersonic, there is no need to approach or enter the air defense zone.

    That you don't even need to approach? Take off and immediately fired?
    1. ancient
      ancient 23 December 2020 15: 02
      +2
      Quote: Svetlana
      That you don't even need to approach?

      Be surprised, but this is the dream of all pilots YES wink
      Quote: Svetlana
      Take off and immediately fired?

      Yeah ... like a Tu-22M3M with .. " wink Dagger "
      1. Orange bigg
        Orange bigg 23 December 2020 15: 29
        0
        Yeah ... like a Tu-22M3M with .. "wink Dagger"


        Forbes doesn't want to believe you.
        A well-known publication announced that the Dagger missile did not exist.

        Despite all the prospects of the Russian hypersonic aviation missile system "Dagger", one blow which can easily destroy a warship, the Forbes publication, citing expert Tony Cooper, reported that in reality, Russia does not have such weapons, and the demonstration is just a props.



        “The Kremlin has announced a plan to equip the second regiment of the Air Force with MiG-31K interceptors, the first - and so far the only fighters compatible with the Russian Kinzhal air-to-surface missile. In fact, perhaps the MiG-31K and their very fast missiles are mostly for show. So far, the Russian Air Force's hypersonic rearmament program seems to have more flares than content. “All the information I get on this is not information,” said Tom Cooper, writer and independent aviation expert. Cooper said he had already heard complaints from Russian sources close to the development of the Daggers. "In fact, this is a show project demonstrating" advanced Russian weapons, "Cooper said," Forbes reports.

        https://avia.pro/news/izdanie-forbes-nazvalo-rossiyskiy-aviacionnyy-raketnyy-kompleks-kinzhal-butaforiey-zayaviv-chto
        1. ancient
          ancient 23 December 2020 15: 32
          +1
          Quote: OrangeBigg
          Forbes doesn't want to believe you.

          And who told you or where did I write this that there is already a Tu-22M3M with a "Dagger"?
          And I expressed my thought in the sense that if this happens .. well, suddenly .. then the launches will need to be performed .. "in the region of the 4th turn" wassat
          1. Grigory_45
            Grigory_45 24 December 2020 00: 33
            -2
            Quote: ancient
            And who told you or where did I write this that there is already a Tu-22M3M with a "Dagger"?

            Quote: ancient
            And who told you or where did I write this that there is already a Tu-22M3M with a "Dagger"?

            It is precisely the aeroballistic "Dagger" that is requested for the Tu-22M3, and not for the MiG-31. Probably, soon we will see such a missile carrier. "Twenty-second" was intended to carry the KR type X-22, he and a couple of "Daggers" will carry off. And the situation with the MiG, as I think, is just a temporary solution.
            1. ancient
              ancient 24 December 2020 10: 44
              +1
              Quote: Gregory_45
              This is exactly the aeroballistic "Dagger" that asks for the Tu-22M3

              Who is such nonsense to you .. "said" or where did you read it? belay
              Do you know the limitations of the Tu-22M3 for H flight and V flight for M> 1? wink
              Do you know the specific fuel consumption at the MFR engine operating mode? wink
              Quote: Gregory_45
              Probably, soon we will see such a missile carrier

              I will not say what you will see, but not "Dagger" is 100% soldier
              Quote: Gregory_45
              "Twenty-second" were intended to carry KR type X-22,

              They "drag" bags of sand or cement, and missiles .. "carry" .... or .. "carry" wassat
              And why were they intended? They are still the main and only carriers of the Kh-22 and Kh-32 missiles.
              Quote: Gregory_45
              And the situation with the MiG, as I think, is just a temporary solution.

              And the "situation" with Mig is absolutely the right decision, so that the rocket can fly at the declared 2000 km. wink
              1. Grigory_45
                Grigory_45 24 December 2020 10: 54
                0
                Quote: ancient
                Who is such nonsense to you .. "said" or where did you read it?

                stupidity can be for you, nothing more.
                The most logical logical carrier of the "Dagger" is an aircraft that was originally created for similar purposes, namely the long-range Tu-22M3 bomber. It has a much more substantial combat radius than the MiG-31

                Quote: ancient
                Do you know the limitations of the Tu-22M3 for H flight and V flight for M> 1?
                Do you know the specific fuel consumption at the MFR engine operating mode?

                and this does not apply to the MiG? Is he generally able to go to supersonic with such a weight and dimensions of the load?

                Quote: ancient
                "Drag" sandbags

                cling to the word (especially if the meaning is clear) - that's our everything))
                1. ancient
                  ancient 24 December 2020 11: 02
                  +2
                  Quote: Gregory_45
                  stupidity can be for you, nothing more.

                  laughing laughing wassat
                  Quote: Gregory_45
                  The most logical logical carrier of the "Dagger" is an aircraft that was originally created for similar purposes, namely the long-range Tu-22M3 bomber

                  Do you have a lot of "experience in operating Tu-22M aircraft" .... and if it's not a secret where and from what place ... did you "pedal" or "did you navigate and launch in the stern"? bully
                  Quote: Gregory_45
                  It has a much more substantial combat radius than the MiG-31

                  I see ... aviation in general ... fool .. "no way" ... read again about "MODES and CONDITIONS" for launching missiles of the "Dagger" complex
                  And what is ... " wassat combat radius "? There is a tactical radius of action (at certain high-speed and high-altitude modes) and a tactical radius of reach of the" complex "- a rocket plane. Everything ... the rest ... lol
                  Quote: Gregory_45
                  and this does not apply to the MiG? Is he generally able to go to supersonic with such a weight and dimensions of the load?

                  What is this ... tavo ... wassat
                  Quote: Gregory_45
                  cling to the word (especially if the meaning is clear) - that's our everything))

                  No ... it's ... born to crawl ... don't get into the cockpit wassat
                  1. Grigory_45
                    Grigory_45 24 December 2020 11: 14
                    -2
                    Quote: ancient
                    read again about "MODES and CONDITIONS" for launching missiles of the "Dagger" complex

                    Do you know them? Then - into the studio)

                    Quote: ancient
                    Quote: Gregory_45
                    and this does not apply to the MiG? Is he generally able to go to supersonic with such a weight and dimensions of the load?

                    What is this ... tavo ..

                    ingenious answer)) The expert is immediately visible. Now he will chew the porridge and say something intelligible.

                    Everything else you scribbled is water.
                    1. ancient
                      ancient 24 December 2020 13: 53
                      +2
                      Quote: Gregory_45
                      Do you know them?

                      Naturally for me and on my own skin it has been tried for decades ... and what about you? wassat
                      Quote: Gregory_45
                      Then - into the studio)

                      Tu-22M3 aircraft is still OPERATING and is in service with the Russian Air Force.
                      And all the documentation on it (RLE and TO) is classified as "secret" ... only KBP ... "DSP".
                      What, at your (institute, department) wassat The order of the Ministry of Defense 010 and the Instructions on the regime of secrecy in the Armed Forces are no longer "held in high esteem"? belay
                      Or are you a "sent Cossack", but here under ... "Ivanushka the Fool" (from a fairy tale) ... "mold"? wassat
                      Quote: Gregory_45
                      ingenious answer)) The expert is immediately visible. Now he will chew the porridge and say something intelligible.

                      Sir ... you ... fool .... to disgrace wassat


                      Quote: Gregory_45
                      Everything else you scribbled is water.

                      laughing laughing tongue ... you sir ...... "balabolka" and .. "void" ... wassat
                      Leave me alone .... negative
                      1. Grigory_45
                        Grigory_45 24 December 2020 14: 36
                        -2
                        Quote: ancient
                        tried on its own skin for decades

                        Have you been using Daggers for decades?)) Have you taken a pill today?
                        Quote: ancient
                        Or you are a "sent Cossack", but here

                        and right there yours:
                        Quote: ancient
                        read about "MODES and CONDITIONS" for launching missiles of the "Dagger" complex

                        here it refers to you - you read them, you know? And why do you advise me?
                        All the same, they did not take the pill ...
                        Quote: ancient
                        here under ... "ivanushka the fool"

                        only you mow. They filled up the full tanks, but did not take the pill ... When you finish the flights, re-read your insanity that you deigned to sprinkle here.
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 23 December 2020 15: 17
    +2
    Quote: Guru
    And that's just a little.

    You have placed a little photo projects of the last century Sukhoi.

    I saw a photo of the cockpit layout on the net.
  • The comment was deleted.