Military Review

Expert assessment of the equipment of Russian combat swimmers

122

Source: casp-geo.ru


In my previous articles, I considered the issues of the conceptual lag of Russia in the service sector aviation... And, unfortunately, a similar picture is observed in the field of underwater activities.

That, however, does not in the least prevent the Russian media from regularly publishing reports on how smartly our combat swimmers conducted their regular exercises. But on the basis of what they see, most spectators cannot always draw conclusions about the quality of the equipment and training of these same swimmers.

Therefore, today we will analyze in more detail all the information that is in the public domain regarding our underwater sabotage and anti-sabotage groups.

And you should start with the press release of the Tethys company (deals with the technical support of a wide range of underwater work, in short - "equipment"). About the new Russian breathing apparatus AVM-12, where the logic of the approach to Russian equipment was outlined. By the way, the new device itself is demonstrated below.

Expert assessment of the equipment of Russian combat swimmers

At the very beginning of the press release, there is a paragraph that at one time inspired me a lot of optimism:

“It should be noted that the AVM-5 apparatus was developed in the early 70s on the instructions of the Navy and reflected the corresponding level of development of underwater breathing technology and understanding of the tasks facing it. Unfortunately, the domestic industry, which for decades worked on the orders of the military, did not seriously study the needs of the civilian sector, as well as foreign experience, could not offer anything else over the next 20 years. "

This document says that at the time of the 2000s, Russian specialists used the most ancient, one might say, artifacts. Equipment of the concepts of the 70s, moreover, in not the best performance even for those years themselves.

The mention of a fundamental problem also inspired optimism - if some tractor driver worked for 30 years on his old tractor and did not see modern solutions, then he would not be able to formulate qualitatively different requirements, because he did not see anything other than his tractor. In view of this, I had a glimmer of hope that the relevant officials would see how it is in the West. Well, they can copy it. But…

And, however, about everything in order.

Suspension systems


The first thing that catches your eye is the lack of unification in such an important piece of equipment as harness systems.

The most successful option for the military, I would choose the Hogarth suspension system based on a monostrope. It looks something like this.


It is based on a metal back, one-piece sling, D-rings and a breast strap. This solution is as reliable as possible, serves for decades, since there is practically nothing to break.

It adapts to any person and to specific diving conditions in 15 minutes, and ideally with millimeter precision. It is universal. And it allows, on its basis, to create an infinite number of configurations, varying the attachment points of additional. equipment. Below are some of the layout options depending on the task.



That is, as we can see, everything has long been developed and foreseen. However, our "bright minds" continue to reinvent the wheel, despite the fact that they themselves wrote about this problem.

“The foreign experience of designing and operating air-breathing apparatus for divers did not remain aloof from consideration. Ignoring this experience earlier led to the fact that the bicycle was often invented, and the technology turned out to be incompatible with the western one.

But they still continue to ignore ready-made verified solutions that could simply be written off. And they ask thoughtfully questions:

“Yes, and divers are very different - some will perform short-term descents to shallow depths (rescuers, freelance divers of the Navy, etc.), others, on the contrary, work for a long time and sometimes at depths of up to 60 meters. It is clear that you cannot make an apparatus for everyone, and universality is always a compromise between what is desired and what is possible. "

Considering the option available to Russian swimmers, it remains unclear - do they even intend to work with some kind of equipment underwater? The complete absence of D-rings cannot be called anything other than absurd. The same towing vehicle, which will be discussed later, must be hooked onto the D-ring.

Balloon configuration


If anyone does not understand, the photo shows the most recent version of the Russian scuba gear.

A twin configuration with one first stage was chosen as a gas source. This solution is the worst of all possible, since it significantly increases the accident rate. Although the advantage of such a solution is certainly the price.

As a safer solution, we recommend switching to a monifold with an insulator and the first two stages.

What will it give? In the event of a gas leak, simply by closing the isolator, the diver is guaranteed to retain half of the gas and then can begin to search for the exact location of the leak.

The second advantage is that in case of failure of the first stage, freezing or any other problem, the diver switches to another stage, closing the emergency stand, while maintaining access to gas in both cylinders. It also expands the ability to help another diver. But this option will be more expensive by about 50 thousand rubles (30% of the price).

The "logic" of the choice of the volume of the pair is also striking.

"The choice of 6-liter cylinders instead of 5-liter cylinders previously used in AVM-7 is a forced necessity, since unfortunately, 7-liter cylinders for a pressure of 200 kgf / cm2 are not produced in our Fatherland at the moment."

Yes, you heard right. Compared to the 1970s, we have not made any progress. We have degradation.

In other words, the total gas volume in such a pair is identical to the mono-balloon configuration with a 12-liter cylinder - the kind that is available for rent in most diving centers.

A logical question arises: "Why, in general, then use a twin configuration, if the main advantages of a twin are not used: fault tolerance and volume?"

That is, the point is that due to the lack of larger cylinders in our country, it is impossible to use an adequate modern configuration.

And according to the logic of common sense - you need to make cylinders. But no. Again, we will not bother: let it be as it is. And our professional combat swimmers will have the same air reserve as a beginner amateur who decided to make his first test dive in Turkey.

By the way, this gas will be enough for 45 minutes of patrolling in the area of ​​the Crimean bridge. Moreover, the decompression limits when using 32% Nitrox are exceeded in 2 hours.

It is also worth considering the fundamental difference between military and recreational diver. The recreationalist has the ability to plan his dive and stop it at any time. A military diver has a combat mission - it is not known what he will see during patrolling, and how this will affect the dive profile (he may be forced to fall to great depths, where the gas consumption is much higher). So, at 40 meters this gas will be enough for only 20 minutes (excluding any emergency reserves and a safe ascent profile).

And for comparison: the balloon configuration of our "probable friends".


Is there a way to fix this?


Despite the conceptual wretchedness of the solutions chosen, nevertheless, there remains a potential opportunity for correcting the situation. The solution is to use an additional Stage-cylinder with an independent first stage.

To some extent, this option may become even more practical for military purposes.
But this solution requires a well-thought-out and unified mounting system. That is, we again return to point 1 - the absence of a normal, modern, unified harness.

Emergency feed system


Another rudiment from the 70s was the preservation of the reserve air valve.

The essence of this concept is that when a certain pressure is reached, the apparatus makes it difficult to breathe, thus signaling that the supply of air is running out. The alerted diver must manually open the supply valve using the valve.

The irony in this case is how the preservation of this rudiment was played out. Previously, the valve opened the cable, it was bitten, and there were cases of death of divers due to the inability to open the valve. Now the cable has been replaced with traction, which is presented as an "improvement". Although a complete rejection of such a decision would be adequate.

Fortunately, the modern level of production makes it possible to create sufficiently reliable and accurate high pressure gauges. A trained diver must constantly monitor the remaining gas and check it against the dive plan.

Dry wetsuits


Hypothermia is one of the significant risk factors when working in water. If a person is exposed to hypothermia, he is unable to do his job effectively. At the very least, cold affects cognitive ability, including alertness. The problem in this area is directly related to the occurrence of emergency situations even during ordinary training dives, not to mention the performance of real combat missions.

For this reason, the issue of protecting the diver from the cold is critically important.
The most effective solution is a dry wetsuit.

Looking at the domestic samples, it becomes obvious that literally everything in this suit was subordinated to one main goal - maximum cheapness.

Traditionally, the trendsetters in this area are such companies as DUI (supplies suits for American swimmers) and SANTI.

In fairness, it should be noted that not all of their units are equipped with top-end solutions in the United States, as in other armies of the world. However, in this regard, Russia makes a significantly stronger bias towards cheapness.

First. The material of the costumes is as good as possible. This makes it difficult to move, reduces comfort and makes it difficult to work with equipment.

Second. Extremely small size range plus the lack of design possibilities for adjusting the suit at least in height. In words, it is simply impossible to convey all the displeasure of working in a suit that does not fit well. At a minimum, a standard height adjustment system could be made.

The third. The sealed zipper is located at the back, which makes it impossible to zip it up or open it yourself. That is, a person cannot put on such a suit on his own (although such a solution is found in the armies of the world everywhere).

Underwater towing vehicle


The towing vehicle allows the diver to significantly increase the patrol area, distance and speed of movement under water, which greatly increases the combat effectiveness. Walking the same distance with the fins will lead to increased gas consumption and fatigue.

For these reasons, underwater tugs should be an essential piece of equipment. Should. But they are not yet with us.

Recently, another ridiculous attempt was made to create our domestic solution.


Further, I quote from press releases.

In 2020, with the help of R&D, on our own initiative, at our own expense, we carried out work on the development and manufacture of a prototype called "Sprut".

That is, they again decided to put the cart in front of the horse. How can you create a good product without personal experience of operating such equipment?

If dive parameters and objectives are unknown, how will the required operating modes, power, and range be determined?

"It is noted that" Octopus "surpasses requests in terms of its parameters fleet, it is capable of accelerating under water up to 4,5 knots (over 8 km / h). German vehicles Bonex Infinity RS and Rotinor RD2 can only reach speeds of up to three and four knots, respectively. At the same time, the Russian apparatus together with the batteries weighs 34 kilograms, the German ones - 40 and 42. Created entirely from domestic components, the Sprut is capable of diving to a depth of 60 meters. ... Approximate cruising range - 10 miles, operating time - 130 minutes. "

The authors of such releases make their comparisons very sly. The fact is that German vehicles are made in three versions - with 1,2 and 4 battery compartments, while the speed of these models is limited to approximately the same values.


The model with which we are comparing in terms of weight is the largest, that is, the weight is due to the presence of a large number of batteries, which is reflected in the operating time - as much as 360 minutes at maximum thrust.

It is also important to note that the maximum speed for a scooter is a very relative concept, since the final speed will depend on the configuration of the diver's equipment and, as a result, its streamlining and resistance, therefore the thrust indicator is much more important. And, as a rule, the speed in such devices is artificially limited. Those who are not afraid to void the warranty can easily (or not so much) remove this limitation in order to get a more efficient scooter. Although this can not but affect the battery life.

The fact that an on-board computer with a navigation system is built into the Rotinor RD2 was completely silent. As well as about the fact that it is a ready-made and well-thought-out product, for which solutions have been implemented both for airborne landing and for attachment to a submarine.


Rotinor RD2

In other words, the resulting apparatus is an order of magnitude worse than Western models, but not better. In general, it is absolutely logical - it is naive to believe that, without rich technical or cave experience, a team that had previously specialized in anything but scooters will be able to create a product that surpasses the world's best samples the first time.

And this would not be a problem if behind all this there were at least some meaningful perspectives, starting with an adequate assessment of their own "achievements". For example, "we made the first sample, it is worse than Western counterparts, but we will work, and slowly but surely, step by step, we will begin to improve it."

Such a position would inspire optimism.

The current situation demonstrates that no one sees the problem in principle, since this hack (suspiciously similar to an air bomb), already 146% better than Western counterparts and 200% ahead of the "needs of the fleet."

That is, people, in general, are not from this planet. And there is no talk of any mood for work. At the same time, having your own towing vehicle is extremely important, as it increases the efficiency of swimmers by an order of magnitude.

conclusions


Unfortunately, the equipment of our military divers is poor. Much better.

But the worst thing is not this, but the fact that the actions that are taken are rather an imitation of activity. Some uncoordinated convulsions of a swan, cancer and pike.

The command seems to no understanding what the face of a modern (namely modern) Russian combat swimmer should look like. This makes any development impossible, since there are no criteria for setting a clear TK.

The result was demonstrated above - we are making a nominally fresh system, which is new only in relation to the system of the 1970s. Moreover, she even managed to degrade in terms of gas volume.

In diving, equipment should be an extension of the body. Knowledge is inseparable from skills, and skills are inseparable from equipment. Everything should be as uniform as possible, unified and spelled out in the standards - where the cutting tool is attached, in which pocket the spare mask is, etc. Only after a unified system is created, it will be possible to start practicing skills in it. Prior to that, the existence of combat swimmers as a truly effective structure was simply impossible.

In the end, it can be stated that the Russian PDSS (anti-sabotage forces and means) need a full-fledged reform. Attempts to evolve the absolutely ancient concepts are unpromising and openly sabotage both in relation to people who go into the water with such equipment, and in relation to the production capabilities of our country.

PS


I did not begin to analyze many questions in the article, so as not to burden it. These include: the swimmers lack instruments, dive computers, a spool and a buoy to mark the ascent points. The absence in the system of a regular sling cutter on the belt (!), In order to provide access to it with two hands from any position, and not on the leg (which is a kind of kitsch and parody).

At the same time, it might seem that I was too strict or even biased. But in conclusion, as an additional illustration of the real state of affairs, I will give a telling picture showing the approach to the selection of equipment for our elite units.

Author:
122 comments
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  1. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 25 December 2020 04: 51
    +11
    The author clearly understands the topic, but is everything really so sad? Although what I mean, naturally twenty years of degradation and only ten years as some kind of movement began.
    1. Nazar
      Nazar 25 December 2020 05: 06
      +24
      Vladimir_2U - Colleague, the fact is that in the USSR, everything was not happy with this. We lagged behind and then pretty much and now it is not realistic to jump into the big league, without experience, without specialists. Another problem is that the Navy does not need large series of such equipment, and it is not profitable to produce a small series. Over the hill, this is simply solved, there are companies that live by making equipment for tourists, they have been developing their competencies for years and for them to release a small batch of products with special requirements is not a problem. We do not have such firms and never have.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 25 December 2020 05: 11
        +4
        Quote: Nazar
        Colleague, the fact is that in the USSR, everything was not happy with this.
        I will not argue, but I remember that there was some kind of closed-cycle breathing system that had no foreign analogues at that time. It was even used for filming the movie "Through Thorns to the Stars"
        1. Konnick
          Konnick 25 December 2020 05: 46
          +5
          The "Amphora" isolation system was tested. There was a discussion at VO. The cost of one set for 2016 was 1,6 million rubles, i.e. for today about 2. Scuba tanks are an order of magnitude cheaper, but they blow bubbles and have a shorter use time. Therefore, the use of scuba gear for combat divers was previously discouraged.
          1. Aleksandr1971
            Aleksandr1971 25 December 2020 09: 40
            +17
            Closed loop breathing systems, or rebreathers, are used even in some of the less expensive dive centers. It is clear that rebreathers in Egypt are unlikely to be found, but in diving centers of Southeast Asia certified divers prefer "ribs". And they take reserve cylinders with them only for safety reasons. On the northern Mariana Islands, an hour of diving with cylinders is about 150 bucks from private traders, and in diving centers, as a rule, 200. With an "edge" prices are one third more expensive. But also with the "edge" the dive is longer. In addition, the "rib" is more compact and allows you to enter thorn-rivers. And with cylinders in thorn-rivers, you can catch on to the devil knows what. I heard about the same from our Russian divers who dived into cenotes in Central America. But on the other hand, the reserve cylinder in which case you can simply throw it at a depth, and it will not be a pity.

            The author of the article correctly leads his thought to the fact that saving on equipment for underwater fighters is a step towards the failure of missions in the face of more prepared opponents.
            1. Lexus
              Lexus 25 December 2020 21: 45
              +3
              Quote: Aleksandr1971
              The author of the article correctly leads his thought to the fact that saving on equipment for underwater fighters is a step towards the failure of missions in the face of more prepared opponents.

              Very accurately noticed. hi On my own I would add that, unfortunately, in many places the vaunted "import substitution" is limited to re-sticking tags. It is not surprising that "caps are thrown into the air", squealing and snotting about each "news" incompetent, empty urya-skakuas. In response to irrefutable facts, they categorically, aggressively, rudely become personal and throw a tantrum.
            2. Maki Avellevich
              Maki Avellevich 28 December 2020 20: 52
              +1
              Quote: Aleksandr1971
              Closed loop breathing systems, or rebreathers, are used even in some less expensive dive centers.

              I have a friend. reserve officer Shayetet 13 in Israel.
              asked him why civilian scuba divers don't use rebreathers. said that this system is suitable for experienced professionals in this business. increased risk of accidents for the average user.
              1. LastPS
                LastPS 31 December 2020 08: 31
                0
                I don't think frogmen are average users. In this case, the risk pays off with greater efficiency.
                1. Maki Avellevich
                  Maki Avellevich 31 December 2020 13: 52
                  0
                  Quote: LastPS
                  I don't think frogmen are average users. In this case, the risk pays off with greater efficiency.

                  asked him why rebreathers are not used civil scuba divers.
              2. Alexander Vorontsov
                3 January 2021 15: 00
                0
                Quote: Maki Avellevich
                Quote: Aleksandr1971
                Closed loop breathing systems, or rebreathers, are used even in some less expensive dive centers.

                I have a friend. reserve officer Shayetet 13 in Israel.
                asked him why civilian scuba divers don't use rebreathers. said that this system is suitable for experienced professionals in this business. increased risk of accidents for the average user.

                Yes, your friend said everything right.
              3. Okinawa
                Okinawa 8 January 2021 11: 58
                0
                "Ribs" are gaining more and more popularity in civilian "use". The problem of apparatus (roughly) arises precisely from a closed cycle (the need to maintain a certain oxygen content in the gas and remove carbon dioxide, and therefore constantly monitor the composition of the gas mixture). It is not for nothing that the devices of some companies write: "This equipment can kill you."
                Military rebreathers are used by sabotage groups (no bubbles, much longer time underwater). The article was more about counter-sabotage tasks, where you can dissect with compressed air.
      2. Mister X
        Mister X 25 December 2020 22: 45
        +3
        Quote: Nazar
        The Navy does not need large series of such equipment

        Quote: Nazar
        there are companies living on the manufacture of equipment for tourists

        hi
        So why shouldn't the RF develop the same equipment together with Beuchat (France).
        In Soviet times, the Tarzan spearfishing crossbow slammed from Beuchat.
        In sporting goods, it was sold under the name P-1.







        You can also buy cylinders from Catalina Cylinders, which produces whatever you want and for what you want.
        High and low pressure, metal and composite.

        How was it with the mosquito fleet?
        Developed a Project 03160 Raptor patrol boat based on Combatboat 90 (Sweden).

        True, the fleet does not really know what it needs, and the designers and manufacturers - what to offer and what requirements to focus on.
        In other words, the Navy still does not have a clear policy.

        earlier in Russia there was a powerful naval structure and the shipbuilding department or the deputy chief of the Navy for armaments were involved in determining the requirements for a small fleet, now "everything is different and ships, boats can be ordered by tankers

        Retired commander-in-chief, admiral of the fleet, who wished to remain anonymous
        1. Lexus
          Lexus 25 December 2020 23: 26
          +1
          Now hardly anyone wants to get involved with sanctions. And they themselves can no longer do anything. hi
          1. Mister X
            Mister X 26 December 2020 00: 00
            +6
            Quote: lexus
            Now hardly anyone wants to get involved with sanctions

            You come to me, I get through the warehouse manager, through the store manager, through the commodity manager, through the back porch ... wink
            1. Lexus
              Lexus 26 December 2020 00: 02
              +1
              That's just how they get it "from under the floor" ... they cannot do it themselves.
              1. Mister X
                Mister X 26 December 2020 00: 05
                +3
                Quote: lexus
                at the same time cannot do it themselves

                The boats of the project 03160 "Raptor" are being built
              2. Mister X
                Mister X 26 December 2020 00: 11
                +3
                After the bath, steal, but drink - Field Marshal Suvorov.
                It doesn't matter how, but equip the fighters and increase the country's defense capability.
                You do not agree?
                1. Lexus
                  Lexus 26 December 2020 00: 13
                  +1
                  There are important areas in which such schemes do not work. Advanced electronics, for example. Without it, any modern technology is worthless rubbish.
                  1. Mister X
                    Mister X 26 December 2020 00: 22
                    +2
                    Are you talking about dimensional modules, or about mikruhi?
                    1. Lexus
                      Lexus 26 December 2020 00: 29
                      0
                      The seam starts with the little things.
                      1. Mister X
                        Mister X 26 December 2020 00: 36
                        +4
                        My former boss often said:
                        - if necessary, we will bring even from America.
                        But we are iTs from Moldova. Import of components.
                        The situation is different.

                        My friend from Sevastopol said that the sanctions were for the press.
                        Ikea has opened giant warehouses there.
                        Any product from the catalog is delivered within XNUMX hours.
                        Unless renamed for the Russian Federation.
                        That's all the sanctions.
                        Nothing personal just business.
                      2. Lexus
                        Lexus 26 December 2020 00: 46
                        +1
                        Where are the domestic AFAR and VNEU? Why are the matrices in thermal imagers Belarusian? I am not comfortable enough to devour and defecate, unlike the "heap" of my detractors on the site. "I'm sorry for the state." (S) It was nice to talk, but I have not answered everyone yet.
                      3. Mister X
                        Mister X 26 December 2020 00: 53
                        +1
                        Quote: lexus
                        It was nice to talk

                        Mutually!
                        I remembered ...
                        For the assembly hall of the Academy of Sciences, an electrically driven screen 7 meters wide was needed.
                        It was legal for a long time.
                        Quickly, and cheaper, he brought the gypsies by bus.
                        HZ how he crossed the border ...
                      4. Lexus
                        Lexus 26 December 2020 01: 15
                        0
                        Quote: Mister X
                        HZ how he crossed the border ...

                        "Gilded" the handle ... and more than one. laughing
                      5. Mister X
                        Mister X 26 December 2020 02: 02
                        +2
                        Quote: lexus
                        "Gilded" the handle ... and more than one.

                        A gypsy woman with two small children calls the apartment of the new Russian - in front of her is a powerful metal door with a bunch of bells and whistles and bolts. The owner opens. Gypsy:
                        - Handsome man, gild the handle!
                        New Russian:
                        - What are you, in kind! It will be removed along with the door ...
                      6. Lexus
                        Lexus 26 December 2020 02: 08
                        0
                        From me like the devil from incense shy away when "suckers" from them dare.
                      7. Mister X
                        Mister X 26 December 2020 11: 07
                        +1
                        Do you have any abilities?
                      8. Lexus
                        Lexus 26 December 2020 14: 45
                        +1
                        I invite them to tell fortunes.
                      9. Mister X
                        Mister X 26 December 2020 18: 09
                        +1
                        Something about a government house? wink
                      10. Lexus
                        Lexus 26 December 2020 18: 10
                        +3
                        It doesn't really scare them. But they want to live. smile
  • Crowe
    Crowe 25 December 2020 05: 20
    +11
    Well, here everything is very good with us - plus to
    SPP-1: Special Underwater Pistol and
    APS-5: Special Underwater Assault Rifle, there is also a unique one
    ADS: Automatic Two-Medium Special

    Russian PDSS (anti-sabotage forces and means) need a full-fledged reform.

    You can't argue here ...
  • Jager
    Jager 25 December 2020 08: 09
    +4
    These are not movements, these are convulsions.
  • pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 25 December 2020 08: 33
    +2
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    and only about ten years as some kind of movement began.

    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      25 December 2020 13: 25
      +5
      And where is the dachshund, which "floated" in the liquid for 5 minutes?
      1. pmkemcity
        pmkemcity 25 December 2020 14: 21
        +2
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        And where is the dachshund,

        This is a "battle dachshund"!
  • Alexander Vorontsov
    25 December 2020 09: 38
    +19
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    The author clearly understands the topic, but is everything really so sad?

    Alas, yes (
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Although what I mean, naturally twenty years of degradation and only ten years as some kind of movement began.

    Firstly, and secondly, the field of activity is very specific.

    And the worst thing is the conceptual lag.
    For example, in the West there are clear standards in some training systems, where the configuration is thoroughly spelled out.
    And I may not know French, Japanese and Chinese, but I will know what is in their right pocket. And what's in the left. Where do they have a sling cutter if something happens, and most importantly, their equipment is a mirror image of mine. I can quickly assess whether everything is OK with him with the equipment, and also, not knowing the language, point to something and he will understand what the matter is.

    And here, you look at the photos - three people and each has its own trace.
    This question of producing something has not even been raised.
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 25 December 2020 09: 42
      +1
      Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
      And I may not know French, Japanese and Chinese, but I will know what is in their right pocket.
      I don’t presume to judge plus or minus in a combat situation, but in paramedicine this is a fundamental advantage.
  • Genry
    Genry 25 December 2020 14: 46
    -4
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    The author clearly understands the topic,

    Author hung noodles about AVM-5But said nothing about fresh AVM-12.
  • Timur Sofronov
    Timur Sofronov 2 March 2021 15: 11
    0
    What is the author's knowledge of, the timetable of lessons at school? And where did the closed-type IDA apparatus go, in his opinion? Standing in service with both divers - scouts of special forces and combat swimmers PDSS, (who knows the difference in the subject) ?! Where is he doing PROTONS and SERENA, I'm talking about tugs ?! Before writing, just study the materiel!
  • Nazar
    Nazar 25 December 2020 04: 59
    +2
    Here is the last picture and explained everything - no one in the specialist will use the wretched imperfections, for the specialists they will always find a way to buy a high-quality "body kit" over the hill.
    The fact that you need to create your own and not in confusion, but systemically - the author is right, but who will build this system?
    1. Vasiliev S.
      Vasiliev S. 25 December 2020 06: 50
      +1
      So who, then, is the described product intended for?
      1. CTABEP
        CTABEP 25 December 2020 11: 21
        +5
        For MO to buy it. Moreover, I will not be surprised if it is also more expensive than normal counterparts. And the military then at their own expense what they need to buy - as we have in many places in the army.
  • Lipchanin
    Lipchanin 25 December 2020 05: 03
    0
    That is, as we can see, everything has long been developed and foreseen. However, our "bright minds" continue to reinvent the wheel,

    This is no longer the invention of the bicycle, this is walking on a rake.
    Why not take the best, you can add something of your own and get a ready-made product that is convenient to use.
    And I said about the rake because again they began to attract amateurs to work who are absolutely not interested in the opinion of people who will work with what they have released.
    Maybe I'm wrong, but it's really scary what our combat swimmers work with.
    1. NDR-791
      NDR-791 25 December 2020 07: 21
      -2
      Why not take the best, you can add something of your own and get a ready-made product that is convenient to use.
      The trouble is that even in military development we look back at patents and licenses. Therefore, nizz just take the best and repeat. We are not a purposeful China with our pragmatism. We are all as "white and fluffy" as stated.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 25 December 2020 05: 10
    +6
    I did not even know that someone in our country was still developing light diving equipment. I always considered the use of oxygen isolation apparatus as the prerogative of special units, but it turns out that scuba gear is also used. It even became interesting where the development of modern lung demand valves is taking place. Devices with a closed breathing circuit allow you to stay under water much longer and therefore are included in the set of equipment for combat swimmers, and scuba gear is used only for rescue and research work. Or we are no longer able to manufacture much more sophisticated light diving equipment, such as isolation apparatus. The three-bolt would still be used.
    1. Lipchanin
      Lipchanin 25 December 2020 05: 21
      -4
      Quote: Konnick
      Or we are no longer able to manufacture much more sophisticated light diving equipment, such as isolation apparatus.

      Seems not able recourse
      1. Hagen
        Hagen 25 December 2020 10: 37
        +1
        Quote: Lipchanin
        Seems not able

        I think, in principle, in a state. But serious development requires funds that do not exist. Or you need mass production, spurred by the corresponding demand. In the old days, even in Chelyabinsk, which was not at all a sea city, there was a DOSAAF naval school with the training of submariners. I myself learned to swim there on the AVM-1 (with a reducer on cylinders and two corrugated hoses from it, even then, in 1977, we considered it antiquity) and sometimes it turned out to swim with the AVM-5 or Ukraine. Today, according to my information, there is no such training. I don’t presume to judge how widespread it is in the country, but in the Crimea, the divers I saw dive on imports or on old Soviet-made junk. Therefore, the market for consumers of this equipment is not very large. Therefore, there is no need to wait for a breakthrough in this industry without SAP.
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          25 December 2020 11: 35
          +11
          Quote: Hagen
          But serious development requires funds

          You no longer need to develop anything serious.
          A lanyard with a metal back?
          In the west, they have already done everything in terms of medical issues related to diving. And in terms of equipment ergonomics (what, where, how to fix it and how). And in terms of screening out less successful design solutions in the field of breathing apparatus.
          Everything can be written off, there is no need to invent anything.
          1. Hagen
            Hagen 25 December 2020 11: 38
            +1
            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            You no longer need to develop anything serious.

            In general, I agree. There is nothing "transcendental" there. But you need a production line and motivated, energetic production workers with operational feedback. I wouldn't be surprised if Kalashnikov does something like this.
            1. Nazar
              Nazar 25 December 2020 12: 11
              +3
              Hagen (Hagen) - Small serial, the price will go beyond the clouds.
              1. Hagen
                Hagen 25 December 2020 12: 51
                +1
                Quote: Nazar
                The seriality is small, the price will go beyond the clouds.

                You're right. I mean exactly the same ... plus the consequences of the high price winked
          2. Nazar
            Nazar 25 December 2020 12: 07
            +2
            Alexander Vorontsov - You wrote: "There is no need to develop anything serious." - so in the production of real kits you won't saw a lot, but for R&D - you can "master" for years and, moreover, no one will ask for the result. It got to the point that the Minister of Defense, when ordering corvettes, made a special condition - "and that no R&D" - from survived belay
            And just to copy the bourgeois - is it a lot of self-interest?
            1. LastPS
              LastPS 31 December 2020 12: 57
              +1
              And just to copy the bourgeois - is it a lot of self-interest?

              You start R&D and within its framework you copy who cares there that the resulting product is a copy of the global standard, but the combat swimmers will receive the necessary equipment. This is still nothing like this option for modern realities.
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 25 December 2020 07: 25
      +6
      I have always considered the use of oxygen isolation apparatus a prerogative of special units.

      Remember the depth of immersion in oxygen tanks? And what about oxygen starvation and other delights associated with this equipment?
      Interestingly, for some reason no one remembered about rebreathers (even the author himself) whose immersion depth and time spent under water are simply incomparable with oxygen tanks and air cylinders.
      1. Alexander Vorontsov
        25 December 2020 10: 26
        +12
        Quote: Sea Cat

        Interestingly, for some reason, no one remembered about rebreathers (even the author himself) whose immersion depth and time spent under

        I started writing, but it turned out 2 pages of material, which ended like this - "now you understand why it was pointless to discuss this in the context of the topic."
        Out of respect for the readers' time, I decided not to do such a "feint"))
        Perhaps I will publish it as a separate topic, slightly modifying it, if anyone is interested.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 25 December 2020 10: 37
          +6
          Good afternoon, Alexander. hi
          For example, it will be interesting for me, at one time I myself was like in the 3rd group of specialization, in Black and White, worse than on the channel named after. Moscow was nowhere to be found. But the rebreather never tried it.
          I had a friend, Sergei Cherkashin, died early, unfortunately, he was one of the first specialists in rebreathers in our country, he praised this equipment very much, he trained a specialist from the Ministry of Emergency Situations on them. True, it didn't shine for me: "I will, - Says - After a stroke, I won't let you go deeper than twenty meters." That's how I passed the rebreather and drove, what could I do with it at twenty meters. request
      2. Photon
        Photon 26 December 2020 00: 15
        +3
        "Do you remember the depth of immersion in oxygen tanks? And oxygen starvation and other delights associated with this equipment?" You haven't confused oxygen poisoning with oxygen starvation?
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 26 December 2020 23: 28
          +1
          I did not confuse anything, I wrote briefly, because I was not going to print here instructions on the rules for using the Individual Respiratory Apparatus:

          "As a result of a drop in the partial pressure of oxygen in the respiratory gas mixture, the partial pressure in the alveolar air of the lungs also decreases. Under these conditions, the blood is insufficiently saturated with oxygen, and the tissues of the body begin to experience a lack of oxygen, and as a result, oxygen starvation occurs." (C)

          Oxygen poisoning develops when breathing a mixture with an increased partial pressure of oxygen.
          1. Exceeding the descent depth in excess of 20 m and the permissible breathing time of pure oxygen.
          2. Exceeding the permissible oxygen content in breathing mixtures (malfunctioning oxygen switch or reducer).
          3. Penetration of water into the regenerative substance "0-3".
          4. Incorrect connection to the apparatus when exiting through the buoyp (opening of the valve of the oxygen cylinder before the pressure in the sluice device or compartment increases).
          1. Photon
            Photon 28 December 2020 22: 34
            0
            If we are talking about oxygen devices, then under what conditions does a drop in the partial pressure of oxygen occur? belay request
  • Konnick
    Konnick 25 December 2020 05: 47
    -1
    Quote: Crowe
    Well, here everything is very good with us - plus to
    SPP-1: Special Underwater Pistol and
    APS-5: Special Underwater Assault Rifle, there is also a unique one
    ADS: Automatic Two-Medium Special

    Russian PDSS (anti-sabotage forces and means) need a full-fledged reform.

    You can't argue here ...

    And this is not about that.
  • The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 25 December 2020 07: 13
    +1
    I read it with pleasure. Moreover, I learned a lot of interesting things for myself. Thanks to the author for the quality approach to the topic.
  • Andrei Nikolaevich
    Andrei Nikolaevich 25 December 2020 07: 31
    +2
    Yes ... sad ... shame ...
    And we laugh at the chubaty ...
  • Old tanker
    Old tanker 25 December 2020 07: 33
    +5
    Yes, now we have a wedge everywhere. The last professional design cadres are leaving their design bureaus, and new neti, with our education system, are not expected. The continuity of generations has been lost. Now in almost all spheres amateurism flourishes and even sensibly copy, as the Chinese do and we once did, cannot and do not want to. They invent another bicycle and try to snatch it for budget money
  • Lbaralgeen
    Lbaralgeen 25 December 2020 07: 50
    -10%
    the apparent advantage of technology in a couple of percent.

    If you need anything you can buy from any company. It is necessary to compare people. And if we compare the special forces, in the top ten there is neither the United States, nor Britain, nor France, nor Israel.

    The United States is beating up all of its special operations in the most unimaginable shameful way.
    As for the technological advantages, liquid breathing is available only in the Russian Federation.
    Glossy balloons fade next to this.
    1. ares1988
      ares1988 25 December 2020 11: 14
      +2
      Are liquid breathing technologies already developed and applied?
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 26 December 2020 18: 42
        +1
        Quote: ares1988
        Are liquid breathing technologies already developed and applied?

        They were developed for a very long time, but I don't know if they are used.
        1. ares1988
          ares1988 27 December 2020 11: 38
          +1
          Well, I know about experiments with mice and dachshunds. The question is that there is a very long distance between the experiments and the "living" unit, which is regularly used by soldiers on a mission. As far as I know, now liquid breathing technologies have not advanced further "the little belly breathed liquid for several minutes and did not even die."
          1. Doliva63
            Doliva63 29 December 2020 18: 17
            +1
            Quote: ares1988
            Well, I know about experiments with mice and dachshunds. The question is that there is a very long distance between the experiments and the "living" unit, which is regularly used by soldiers on a mission. As far as I know, now liquid breathing technologies have not advanced further "the little belly breathed liquid for several minutes and did not even die."

            Interesting. In the late 70s, I read a brochure, there, it seems, and a certain mixture was poured into a person's lungs - he breathed. But I will not argue. hi
  • Konnick
    Konnick 25 December 2020 08: 01
    -1
    Quote: Crowe
    Well, here everything is very good with us - plus to
    SPP-1: Special Underwater Pistol and
    APS-5: Special Underwater Assault Rifle, there is also a unique one
    ADS: Automatic Two-Medium Special


    And why such weapons if the visibility in the water, for example, in the Black Sea does not exceed 5-7 meters, and even less in rivers and lakes. It is necessary to develop sonars for combat swimmers. Back in Soviet times, semi-homemade underwater locators were used in underwater orienteering competitions. The VO has an article "Hunting for intruders in ports and harbors. Review of foreign systems." https://topwar.ru/57070-ohota-za-narushitelyami-v-portah-i-gavanyah-obzor-zarubezhnyh-sistem.html. Before you shoot, you need to find or comb these bullets with a solid chain? Before minus, proud of our submarine machines, think - Why would they be a blind fighter.
    Nobody is doing this nonsense except us. There are a bunch of ways to destroy underwater saboteurs. And for the fight after going on land, there are plenty of other weapons. It's like with Armata, they made and began to scratch a turnip, and where to use it.
    1. Evil Booth
      Evil Booth 25 December 2020 08: 10
      +1
      wassat yernudoy)) bggg! honestly. and it is possible in more detail why a typical weapon is nonsense? and what other means?
    2. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 25 December 2020 08: 16
      +1
      Quote: Konnick
      It is necessary to develop sonars for combat swimmers

      In Rozov's "Meganesia" cycle, sonar glasses are mentioned, only there was generally darkness and continuous smoke. The cycle is highly recommended.
    3. Alexander Vorontsov
      25 December 2020 12: 05
      +6
      Quote: Konnick
      And why such weapons if visibility in the water, for example, in the Black Sea does not exceed 5-7 meters, and even less in rivers and lakes

      The average visibility at the World Cup is 15-20 meters. Up to 30.
      Considering that on land 90% of gunfights with a pistol occur at distances less than 10 meters, then 20 meters under water clearly requires an effective weapon.
    4. Photon
      Photon 26 December 2020 00: 32
      +1
      "Visibility in the Black Sea does not exceed 5-7 meters." In the Black Sea, visibility is almost always about 15m, and not very rarely 25
      1. Whowhy
        Whowhy 26 December 2020 11: 54
        +2
        On Tarkhankut, maybe 15 (25 somehow I have never met), but in the strait, just not more than 7 meters.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 25 December 2020 08: 09
    +1
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Interestingly, for some reason no one remembered about rebreathers

    Read the comments, it's just that these devices have a Russian name - instrumentation or devices of a closed breathing system. At the VO there was a review "Special diving equipment" Amphora ".
    "In December 2014, the Ministry of Defense purchased 76 sets of new special diving equipment (SVS)" Amphora "with a closed breathing system. The state spent 123,1 million rubles for the purchase of these sets, or 1,6 million rubles for each set. armament of submarine special forces units. In particular, it was received by the soldiers of the anti-submarine sabotage forces and means (PDSS) of the Caspian Flotilla. "

  • Jager
    Jager 25 December 2020 08: 15
    +6
    It resembles the development of the domestic high-speed train "Sokol" ... by the marine Central Design Bureau! The result is a little predictable. As my mentor said, "Motherland gave birth in agony, it would be better to have an abortion." It's good that the railroad workers don't make aircraft. After the fiasco with Sokol, Russian Railways recognized impotence in the HSR and began buying German Siemens, which is now called Sapsan and others.
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 25 December 2020 08: 41
    +3
    Good analytical article, respect to the author. I guessed that everything was not very good in this area, but did not know to what extent.
  • sevtrash
    sevtrash 25 December 2020 10: 07
    +3
    It can be assumed that the cut is everywhere. Undoubtedly, there are people who understand what and how it should be, but sawmills rule
  • Operator
    Operator 25 December 2020 10: 11
    -4
    Everything is not simple, but very simple - the RF Armed Forces still have full access to any imported scuba divers' equipment for retail prices, then why pay more for R&D of domestic equipment.

    That's when sanctions are introduced here, then we will have domestic D-rings and everything else laughing
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      25 December 2020 11: 37
      +7
      Quote: Operator
      Everything is not simple, but very simple - the RF Armed Forces still have full access to any imported scuba divers' equipment for retail prices, then why pay more for R&D of domestic equipment.

      That's when sanctions are introduced here, then we will have domestic D-rings and everything else laughing

      The problem is that they do not swim in imported ones, but in specially designed domestic ones, which are worse than imported ones. Those. money on the development of what is worse, they still spent.
      1. Operator
        Operator 25 December 2020 12: 07
        0
        In the photo of the FSB special forces, all the equipment is imported (almost like mine - with the exception of the rebreather) laughing

        And, I understand - you mean the special forces of the Navy.
  • White AK
    White AK 25 December 2020 13: 02
    +6
    In 2002, I served in one unit of the PDSS in the Far East and we had an IDA-71, this is a box with a breathing bag and a regatron and a funny suit (but there are no bubbles and it is more difficult to find a diver from the surface), from APS and PSS weapons, weapons Norms and the equipment is of course darkness, ancient and killed in the trash, which is now even scary to think.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 25 December 2020 13: 24
    +4
    Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
    Quote: Konnick
    And why such weapons if visibility in the water, for example, in the Black Sea does not exceed 5-7 meters, and even less in rivers and lakes

    The average visibility at the World Cup is 15-20 meters. Up to 30.
    Considering that on land 90% of gunfights with a pistol occur at distances less than 10 meters, then 20 meters under water clearly requires an effective weapon.

    As a person diving all over the Crimea and the Caucasus, doing spearfishing, once saw a transparency of 10 meters. I didn't dive in the middle of the World Cup, but what to do there?
  • TatarinSSSR
    TatarinSSSR 25 December 2020 13: 51
    +4
    The main thing is that real combat swimmers and naval special forces are not such downs as they are shown in the "Sea Devils" TV series on NTV. Otherwise, no amount of ammunition will help them.
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      25 December 2020 15: 59
      +10
      Quote: TatarinSSSR
      The main thing is that real combat swimmers and naval special forces are not such downs as they are shown in the "Sea Devils" TV series on NTV. Otherwise, no amount of ammunition will help them.

      The problem is that a well-trained diver can swim in bad equipment, but he will "fight" with it. And slowly degrade.

      But if you take the question of preparation, it is impossible to train a good diver with bad equipment. Skills don't exist in isolation from equipment.
      1. TatarinSSSR
        TatarinSSSR 25 December 2020 18: 41
        +1
        I agree that this is why you need to prepare your drivers with high quality and provide them with the best equipment.
      2. Doliva63
        Doliva63 26 December 2020 18: 56
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        Quote: TatarinSSSR
        The main thing is that real combat swimmers and naval special forces are not such downs as they are shown in the "Sea Devils" TV series on NTV. Otherwise, no amount of ammunition will help them.

        The problem is that a well-trained diver can swim in bad equipment, but he will "fight" with it. And slowly degrade.

        But if you take the question of preparation, it is impossible to train a good diver with bad equipment. Skills don't exist in isolation from equipment.

        Why does a scout with MCI need "cool" equipment? He will get to the shore and throw him out. So they don't rack their brains. Here PDSSniki - another question, but they, as it were, "not on the front line", no one invests in them. So, in essence, everything is fine for a country where "negative economic growth" is not even discussed laughing
  • Konnick
    Konnick 25 December 2020 13: 58
    +1
    Quote: Operator
    And, I understand - you mean the special forces of the Navy.


    The rebreather is much more compact and allows you to exit the submarine through a torpedo tube. With two cylinders, you cannot, unless you push in front of you.
  • Avior
    Avior 25 December 2020 16: 15
    +3
    I saw a photo from Soviet tests of low-noise screwless transporters for combat swimmers based on a linear electric motor. But the development disappeared (it was classified, of course, it was) and no one even remembers it. I have not seen such release abroad either.
    Now, technically, it will be easier to recreate it.
    1. Aag
      Aag 26 December 2020 18: 18
      +1
      Quote: Avior
      I saw a photo from Soviet tests of low-noise screwless transporters for combat swimmers based on a linear electric motor. But the development disappeared (it was classified, of course, it was) and no one even remembers it. I have not seen such release abroad either.
      Now, technically, it will be easier to recreate it.

      I suspect that there is a problem with the battery.
      1. Avior
        Avior 26 December 2020 18: 59
        +2
        it is much easier with batteries and electronics now than then
  • KSVK
    KSVK 26 December 2020 01: 54
    +3
    Quote: Alexander Vorontsov

    Alas, yes (

    The author is a little unaware. It's actually not that bad.
    There is a rebreather "Breeze", developed and embodied in "metal" by Alexei Vazhinsky. Moreover, this rib is one of the best in the world today. And I personally saw the ribs made for the Ministry of Emergencies. It seems that there was an order from the MO.
    The elemental base of the electronics was Chinese, but the rest of the hardware was ours. And the software is completely developed by Alexey.
    As for the suspensions, the question is so complicated. I'm using a sidemount. Generally recognized as the best configuration for caves and wrecks. The suspension is much lighter and simpler than the twin backrest. And the convenience without comment. If anything, I ate oysters. And dived in sparks.
    So, there has long been a Russian manufacturer of suspension systems. Alexander Linev from Nizhny. In its backs, many people dive around the world. Moreover, its backs are of the original design and their own design. And he makes them from titanium, steel and lyumishki. At the request of the client. He also makes fenders, adapters, stage harnesses and much more.
    So everything is there. You don't need to copy anything.
    Another question is that our powers that be need to cut the loot, but with our producers it is more difficult than with imports.
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      26 December 2020 14: 22
      0
      Quote: KSVK
      The author is a little unaware. It's actually not that bad.
      There is a rebreather "Breeze", developed and embodied in "metal" by Alexei Vazhinsky.

      I still remember the very first posts on the forums when they were choosing a name for this rebreather and someone suggested Breeze. Everyone liked it right away.
      This is not the problem.
      Here they write about rebreathers as some kind of miracle. This is actually a rather old system. Like a bicycle.
      And the problem is not how to "make a bicycle", although if you look at what top brands are making bicycles now, it becomes obvious that a bicycle is not a bicycle. But this is already the next stage.

      The problem is to first develop a competent system for the entire fleet, and then implement it. A system in which initially a horse stands first and only then a cart.
      And not so that "well, we do not have the necessary cylinders, so we will do it based on what we have."


      So, there is a Russian manufacturer of suspension systems for a long time. Alexander Linev from Nizhny.

      Again, a number of things can be done in the garage. This cannot be viewed as a problem for the state with its resources.
      The problem is that 1) there is no consistency 2) these solutions are not implemented, because see paragraph 1


      As for the suspensions, the question is such a complicated one. I'm using a sidemount. Generally recognized as the best configuration for caves and wrecks.

      1) Any solid and well thought-out system is better than systemlessness. Those. which question is the second question in the queue.

      2) Sadimanut is not universally recognized and not the best. This is nothing more than marketing.

      This is an old system that was used by dry cavers.
      Then modern marketers took it out of the analogs of history, painted in a new way "highly specialized" was replaced by "best".
      1. KSVK
        KSVK 26 December 2020 16: 02
        0
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov

        2) Sadimanut is not universally recognized and not the best. This is nothing more than marketing.

        This is an old system that was used by dry cavers.
        Then modern marketers took it out of the analogs of history, painted in a new way "highly specialized" was replaced by "best".


        I have always found it funny and incomprehensible when the taste of oysters is discussed loudest by those who have never tasted them. ;)
        Try it, you will like it. Just find a person who really knows this configuration. Who CAN convey all the benefits of this system.

        PS And according to the article, I'm sorry, but your message that we have NOTHING is fundamentally wrong. And we have cylinders and technologies for their production. It is simply, quite possibly, there is no economic feasibility of producing small-displacement HP cylinders. We produce transport workers. Cylinders for VVD submarines too. And there the working pressure is 400 kgf / cm2. And the lung governed demand valves of AVMs in general can compete in the ease of breathing with wide-spread legends and other apexes. But this is the main parameter of the aircraft operation. So forgive the author, the theses raised in your article do not correspond to reality.
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          26 December 2020 16: 18
          +1
          Quote: KSVK
          I've always found it funny

          Oleg, what happens on the sidemount if you have 1 emergency stand?
          And what will happen on the spark?

          PS And according to the article, I'm sorry, but your message that we have NOTHING is fundamentally wrong.

          Why nothing? What is in service with our swimmers, I have listed and demonstrated in the photo. To whom little can google.

          It is simply, quite possibly, there is no economic feasibility of producing small-displacement HP cylinders.

          You are now trying to figure out why we have "everything" and we "can do everything", but swimmers don't?

          And AVM lung machines in general can compete in the ease of breathing with wide-spread legends and other apexes

          Well, yes, it remains only to figure out why Apeks is a world brand, and ours are not "having analogues", what share of the world market do they take? Why are companies that sew crackers for American "cats" in the top of the world market, and ours ... what market share do they occupy?
          1. Aag
            Aag 26 December 2020 19: 18
            +1
            Alexander, thanks for the article!
            But here: "Well, yes, it remains only to figure out why Apeks is a global brand, and ours are not" having analogues ", what share of the world market do they occupy? Why are companies that sew crackers for American" cats "in the top of the world market, and our ... what market share do you have? " You are already going beyond the scope of your own article. Are we about the equipment of combat swimmers, or about sales volumes, marketing? The brand, and the necessary properties, quality, - several different things, do not find? As well as the product (the main purpose of which is to be sold), and product (designed to perform one or another functionality under specified conditions).
            Here, in the comments, a lot of tricks (underwater hunters) were noted. I think they agree with me that, for example, brand-name guns for software ("Cressi", "Mares", etc.) are mainly used by beginners. they switch to author's guns, homemade products. Brands do not stand nearby, even despite the different production capabilities. hi
            1. Alexander Vorontsov
              26 December 2020 19: 48
              +1
              Quote: AAG
              Those with increased requirements are switching to author's guns, homemade products

              I understand what you are talking about.
              There are some segments where small-scale production stands out in a positive way.
              Italian footwear. Costumes.
              But this is not the case.

              By the way, DUI started in the same way, sewing for themselves, then for friends, then for acquaintances, etc.
              And now no one bothers to buy a masmarket solution or come to the office and order something unique.

              Our equipment is practically not represented on the market, not because it is like Italian shoes)))
  • Whowhy
    Whowhy 26 December 2020 11: 45
    +3
    It seems to me that for underwater patrolling of important objects, miniature submarines (even of an open type) with radars and onboard weapons, etc. are needed. In order not to suffer decompression, it is necessary to make an underwater habitable base with a dispatch point and work on a rotational basis.
    When it comes to wetsuits, "wet hydras" will always outperform dry ones in comfort and thermal protection. For example, when we were young, we bought sponge rubber (8-12mm) at the local RTI factory, glued wetsuits and hunted in them in winter, under the ice, quite comfortably for two hours.
    Since the material of the homemade wetsuits was quite "delicate", such a hydra was enough for about a season. In industrial production, rubber can be protected by gluing on both sides with lavsan. Of course, at a depth such a wetsuit will be squeezed by pressure, but the Japanese, for example, in the last century, thought of using microscopic glass hollow balls instead of air pores to make wetsuits.
    I once read in "Sportsman-Submariner" about a chemical heat generator for scuba divers, sewed small bags, filled them with a mixture of aluminum and iron sawdust and salt and stuffed them under a diving suit - it was very hot (it was in the winter, minus twenty above) - I had to periodically pull back the rubber and run water into the hydra. Plus (though more likely a minus), after leaving it turned out that he got burns (with bubbles), in the places where the bags are located.
    In industrial production, it is possible to fully calculate (for moderate heat release) the size of the particles of iron and aluminum, or magnesium (salt in seawater does not need to be added) and make the simplest heat regulation scheme from one-time elements.
    In general, many issues can be resolved in fairly simple and inexpensive ways - there would be "political will" ....
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      26 December 2020 13: 51
      -1
      Quote: whowhy
      As for wetsuits, "wet hydras" will always outperform dry ones in comfort and thermal protection.

      The thermal conductivity of water is many times greater than the thermal conductivity of air, for this reason, a wet suit can never approach the characteristics of a dry one.
      Moreover, a wet suit compresses with pressure and its characteristics rapidly decrease with depth.
      And the water temperature at depth is usually lower.

      Crackers work on the principle of a thermos - there is always an air gap between the water and the body. Sinking below it, they just blow it up and that's it.
      In addition, under modern crackers, today they put on highly effective underwear, which regulates the thickness of that very air gap. Well, the heating system.
      1. Aag
        Aag 26 December 2020 19: 30
        0
        "... a wet suit can never come close to a dry suit ..."
        A colleague writes about one of the characteristics - convenience.
        ... Never say "never")). It is necessary to consider the conditions of use, - temperature, depth, time.
        Yes, and dry GC after a while ceases to be such, - will confirm anyone who ran to OZK, L-1.))
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          26 December 2020 20: 21
          +1
          Quote: AAG
          "... a wet suit can never come close to a dry suit ..."
          A colleague writes about one of the characteristics - convenience.
          ... Never say "never")). It is necessary to consider the conditions of use, - temperature, depth, time.
          Yes, and dry GC after a while ceases to be such, - will confirm anyone who ran to OZK, L-1.))

          Yes, in any conditions, a suit that excludes body contact with water will be "warmer".
          Moisture inside is a long-known problem and they have learned to solve it with a specialized underwear.
          That does not eliminate the need to adequately approach the temperature regime.
          As for the "convenience" - it is not entirely clear what is meant.
          1. Aag
            Aag 26 December 2020 20: 57
            0
            "... Regarding" convenience "- it is not entirely clear what is meant ..."
            The fact that, up to certain temperatures, wet HA is much more convenient than a "biscuit", less constrains movement. And safer. In case of loss of "tightness" (injury, damage). In some cases it acts as a pressure bandage.
            Have you ever punctured a tube wheel at speed? You will feel a similar chill when punctured by dry gas at a temperature close to zero. In a similar situation with a tubeless wheel, a wet suit, the sensations will not be so bright.))
            1. Alexander Vorontsov
              27 December 2020 01: 57
              +1
              Quote: AAG
              The fact that, up to certain temperatures, wet HA is much more convenient than "bread", less constrains movement.

              Crackers made of modern materials do not hinder movement (unlike domestic samples).

              Have you ever punctured a tube wheel at speed? You will feel a similar chill when punctured by dry gas at a temperature close to zero. In a similar situation with a tubeless wheel, a wet suit, the sensations will not be so bright.))

              I happened to fill a biscuit because of my stupidity at +4 C, and not pierce the wheel.

              Water is not poured into the stream, but rather slowly poison. Inside the underwear that works even when wet. After the circulation of water inside, it does not happen, so not everything is so bad.
              As for the injuries themselves - when was the last time you tore your clothes? Pants? A shirt?
              While in water you cannot move as sharply as on land, because the medium is very viscous and you don't have a fulcrum to push off sharply.

              And the suits themselves are made of durable materials and all loaded places are reinforced, sometimes with a more durable material, and sometimes with Kevlar inserts, i.e. in this place, you can't even cut them with a knife, only if you hit them hard with something sharp.

              the sensations will not be so vivid.

              If your body is functioning normally and it does not freeze, then of course the sensations will be very unpleasant. But this is better than being constantly freezing to be ready for flooding.

              As for the sensations, the chance of "losing" the mask is much greater than flooding the costume.
              And the sensations are much brighter, because these are the eyes and mucous membranes.
              But it also needs to be trained and practiced regularly.
              1. Aag
                Aag 27 December 2020 09: 24
                +1
                "... Rusk made of modern materials does not hinder movement (unlike domestic samples) ..."
                Probably ... But not unlike wet ones.)) After all, where the risk of damage to the suit is minimal, in some types of freediving, for example, they prefer naked neoprene, even without nylon covering.
                "... After the circulation of water inside does not happen ..."
                Why?
                "... when was the last time you tore your clothes on? .."
                Don't peep!)) - jacket, this week ... Moreover, in conditions of sufficient visibility, and without contact with the enemy, and surfaces not covered with shell rock, it was stupidly hooked at work ..
                But we're talking about combat swimmers ?! Yes, technical underwater work often involves contact with equal edges of the metal.
                "... it's better than being constantly cold to be ready for flooding ..."
                I stipulated the conditions: ".. up to certain temperatures ...". You can add, - depending on the problem being solved. It's one thing to patrol the perimeter of your ship, object (when there is an opportunity to change), quite another, - DRG raid. Especially, if you have to go to the enemy's shore, and there it is preferable to get out of the water dry in the direct, not figurative sense.
                We will not argue which (who) is better: a light infantryman, or a horseman clad in armor. Each has its own task.
                Accordingly, the equipment must be good and different!
                "... it also needs to be trained and practiced regularly ..."
                Unambiguous and unconditional, like all normal and emergency situations.
                Thank you for your time. hi
      2. Whowhy
        Whowhy 27 December 2020 12: 18
        0
        The thermal conductivity of water is many times greater than the thermal conductivity of air, for this reason, a wet suit can never approach the characteristics of a dry one.

        I just wrote to you that I hunted calmly in a wet hydra in winter (minus 20 from above) 2 hours... I would have looked at you in a dry suit in two hours. lol
        The essence of wet hydra is that water is distributed in a very thin layer under the suit, heats up to body temperature and this layer does not wash off and does not circulate, that is, there is no heat exchange. Of course, my hydra was tailored exactly to my body. But who is stopping, for example, from making a workshop in the unit, in which every warrior (or special person) can glue (using semi-industrial equipment) a diving suit? At home on my knee, it took me three days, three to four hours. We do not have so many such units, and the potential losses (if the soldiers fail to cope with the task) are immeasurably greater than the price of such equipment.
        Moreover, a wet suit compresses with pressure and its characteristics rapidly decrease with depth.

        Again, I just wrote to you that the Japanese use microscopic glass balls instead of air pores, so with depth the characteristics of such a hydra do not fall from the word "at all". :)
        As for the "biscuit", then when crimping it strongly constrains the movement, and if, as you say, "blow" it, then depth maneuvers become, at least, very inconvenient, especially in a combat situation, when a very difficult choice appears - to fight , or "cuddle". In some cases, especially with loss of consciousness, a fighter can be thrown from the depth to the surface at all, and this is fraught with death.
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          28 December 2020 12: 06
          0
          I just wrote to you that in a wet hydra in winter (minus 20 from above) I calmly hunted for 2 hours. I would have looked at you in a dry suit in two hours. lol

          Your irony is not clear to me, I can only assume that you do not know the possibilities of crackers and the fact that cavemen sit in the water for 10+ hours.


          For me, in general, all this is very strange. It's like proving that the earth is round.
          You will not find a single madman who climbs into a cave in winter wearing a wet suit.
          But on the forums of freedivers there are a lot of people who, for some reason, like to compare a biscuit with a wet one.
          What for? It is not clear ...
          Well, OK, let the cavemen, the coast guard in Alaska, the FSB special forces - unknowingly and stupidly use crackers.


          Quote: whowhy
          As for the "biscuit", then when crimping it strongly constrains the movement, and if, as you say, "blow" it, then depth maneuvers become, at least, very inconvenient, especially in a combat situation, when a very difficult choice appears - to fight , or "cuddle". In some cases, especially with loss of consciousness, a fighter can be thrown from the depth to the surface at all, and this is fraught with death.

          Please describe how the descent process takes place from 0 to 20 meters in a rusk.
          To understand what you mean by complexity.
          1. Whowhy
            Whowhy 28 December 2020 13: 05
            0
            Please describe how the descent process takes place from 0 to 20 meters in a rusk.
            To understand what you mean by complexity.

            The difficulty is not when diving, but when surfacing, during combat maneuvering. You cannot release all the air from the suit at once. You only have to float vertically. There are no valves on the heels. Escaping air can severely block your view. With a loss of consciousness and even with distraction of attention to the equipment on the belt (something caught, or tangled, for example), it can be thrown from the depth with fatal consequences.
            1. Alexander Vorontsov
              28 December 2020 13: 20
              0
              Quote: whowhy
              Please describe how the descent process takes place from 0 to 20 meters in a rusk.
              To understand what you mean by complexity.

              The difficulty is not when diving, but when surfacing, during combat maneuvering. You cannot release all the air from the suit at once. You only have to float vertically. There are no valves on the heels. Escaping air can severely block your view. With a loss of consciousness and even with distraction of attention to the equipment on the belt (something caught, or tangled, for example), it can be thrown from the depth with fatal consequences.

              Well, he just squeezes when diving, okay, if you don't want to dive, let's talk about surfacing.

              Depth 50 meters. How will a diver in a wet suit float? What is the procedure, at least approximate?
              1. Whowhy
                Whowhy 30 December 2020 12: 59
                0
                Why walk so deep? Baratrauma of the lungs can be obtained at 1 meter. And whatever you say, the BCD can be controlled much faster than bleeding air from a wetsuit.
                1. Alexander Vorontsov
                  30 December 2020 13: 40
                  0
                  Quote: whowhy
                  Why walk so deep? Baratrauma of the lungs can be obtained at 1 meter. And whatever you say, the BCD can be controlled much faster than bleeding air from a wetsuit.

                  With 50 more clearly, Okay ...
                  Depth 10 meters.
                  And then in exactly the same way - how will a diver in a wet suit emerge? What is the procedure, at least approximate?
    2. businessv
      businessv 26 December 2020 21: 29
      +1
      Quote: whowhy
      In general, many issues can be resolved in fairly simple and inexpensive ways - there would be "political will" ....

      How delightful are such comments from specialists! Thank you!
  • Dimide
    Dimide 26 December 2020 19: 08
    0
    Great article from a knowledgeable person!
    Respect to the author!
  • KSVK
    KSVK 26 December 2020 21: 19
    0
    Quote: Alexander Vorontsov

    Oleg, what happens on the sidemount if you have 1 emergency stand?
    And what will happen on the spark?

    In both cases, you lose half the gas and interrupt the dive.
    Quote: Alexander Vorontsov

    Why nothing? What is in service with our swimmers, I have listed and demonstrated in the photo. To whom little can google.
    You are now trying to figure out why we have "everything" and we "can do everything", but swimmers don't?

    The existence of an object as such and finding it in a certain location are different issues. Almost all diving equipment is produced in Russia. I repeat ECCR by Alexey Vazhinsky, PSCR by Ilya Kozlov, Wings / pendants / backs / accessories by Alexander Linev, crackers are made by someone, regulators are produced. Why it is not purchased for supplying power supply is a question to the officials in charge of these issues. And another important question, I repeat the market capacity. And it is minimal. I haven't dived in 2 years. I have no more financial ability to dive. But until recently I could afford to dive more than 100 dives a year.
    Quote: Alexander Vorontsov

    Well, yes, it remains only to figure out why Apeks is a world brand, and ours are not "having analogues", what share of the world market do they take? Why are companies that sew crackers for American "cats" in the top of the world market, and ours ... what market share do they occupy?

    And you don't need to invent anything. "Top of the world market" and "supply of American cats" are not related concepts. Apex makes money from the civilian market, and supplying SEALS is a drop in the bucket. We have the same. Only we do not have a civilian market. And MO orders will not allow our producers to survive.
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      26 December 2020 22: 46
      0
      Quote: KSVK
      In both cases, you lose half the gas and interrupt the dive.

      The fact of the matter is that gas is not lost in a twin.
      The emergency counter closes and all gas is available.
      This one difference is a very serious sidemount disadvantage and a twin advantage.
  • businessv
    businessv 26 December 2020 21: 22
    +2
    At the same time, it might seem that I was too strict or even biased. But in conclusion, as an additional illustration of the real state of affairs, I will give a telling picture showing the approach to the selection of equipment for our elite units.
    Alexander, thank you for an interesting, analytical, informational and logical article! I read it with great interest! He was saddened, although this is already customary. hi
  • bk0010
    bk0010 26 December 2020 21: 34
    +1
    I don't know if there are many such specialists in the Navy, but hardly much more than a company. Is it really impossible to organize a diving club from them and buy normal equipment under this sauce, as is done for ordinary diving centers? Well, yes, it will be tourist, not military equipment, but it seems to me that for the special forces of the Navy, the resistance of equipment to radiation exposure or electromagnetic impulse will not be in the first place even during a war, not to mention everyday tasks.
  • KSVK
    KSVK 27 December 2020 05: 41
    0
    Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
    Quote: KSVK
    In both cases, you lose half the gas and interrupt the dive.

    The fact of the matter is that gas is not lost in a twin.
    The emergency counter closes and all gas is available.
    This one difference is a very serious sidemount disadvantage and a twin advantage.

    Alexander, you kind of read Tetys? There was also a topic about the valve cycle.
    Even Herr Max Vasiliev, who knows a lot about perversions, wrote that it is senseless and dangerous if the rack refuses to turn the valves on the racks. The procedure is as follows: you shut off the manifold and, with half the gas guaranteed, dump up. All. There is no need to produce entities. Continuing a dive without gas backup is stupid and dangerous. After all, a spark with one working stand is one cylinder. But just with pollock options are possible. I just once dived with a burst HP hose on one cylinder. Well, yes, I had to turn the valve. And I can give you many arguments in favor of side. But all this is not for this resource.
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      27 December 2020 10: 19
      0
      Quote: KSVK
      Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
      Quote: KSVK
      In both cases, you lose half the gas and interrupt the dive.

      The fact of the matter is that gas is not lost in a twin.
      The emergency counter closes and all gas is available.
      This one difference is a very serious sidemount disadvantage and a twin advantage.

      Alexander, you kind of read Tetys? There was also a topic about the valve cycle.
      Even Herr Max Vasiliev, who knows a lot about perversions, wrote that it is senseless and dangerous if the rack refuses to turn the valves on the racks. The procedure is as follows: you shut off the manifold and, with half the gas guaranteed, dump up. All. There is no need to produce entities. Continuing a dive without gas backup is stupid and dangerous. After all, a spark with one working stand is one cylinder. But just with pollock options are possible. I just once dived with a burst HP hose on one cylinder. Well, yes, I had to turn the valve. And I can give you many arguments in favor of side. But all this is not for this resource.

      The closed rack is 2 cylinders.


      Even Herr Max Vasiliev, who knows a lot about perversions, wrote that it is senseless and dangerous if the rack refuses to turn the valves on the racks.

      You misinterpreted.
      It was a controversy between the two schools of using the twin.
      And it was not about the possibility, but about the order.
      Close the insulator first and then the rack or first the rack and then the insulator.
      Those. it was a dispute between two "nerds" about who is more nerd - which algorithm in a situation whose probability of 0,000001% will be 0,00001% more effective than the opponent's algorithm.

      No one will continue the dive, just more gas will return.
  • KSVK
    KSVK 27 December 2020 13: 30
    0
    Quote: Alexander Vorontsov

    The closed rack is 2 cylinders.

    Good. Any of the enclosed racks leaves you with ONE GAS SOURCE. And this is one bottle. Albeit a double capacity. That's better? ;)
    Quote: Alexander Vorontsov

    You misinterpreted.
    .....
    No one will continue the dive, just more gas will return.

    If you have correctly calculated the gases in terms of quantity, then this is not important. You calmly exit with the remaining half of the gas from the pair FROM ANY dive point. But turning the valves and figuring out where and what is poisoning you behind your back can be a fatal mistake. Close the insulator and valita. It couldn't be easier. And it works GUARANTEED.
  • Decimalegio
    Decimalegio 27 December 2020 19: 59
    0
    I understand that in Russia there is a certain delicacy in the purchase of foreign material, but if the product is needed, even not in large quantities, given that diving raids do not consist of tens of thousands of people, wouldn't it be better to buy abroad if there is no production at home and it is better foreign product? In Russia, outboard motors, if I read correctly, are not produced, so if the fleet needs outboard motors, they would not buy them just because they are not domestic? Excuse my Russian from google translator.
    1. LastPS
      LastPS 31 December 2020 16: 20
      0
      If it were not for corruption, there would be no such issues. Everything related to the defense industry can be promoted simply by appealing to defense capabilities - Russian society will accept this, but if you dig, facts begin to emerge that say that it is better and easier to buy a conventional thousand pieces of equipment for literally piece specialists, and not produce your own within the framework of an unclear concept and extremely limited means of production. But you will not cut money on foreign orders, and if you cut it on the wrong scale, and this is not economically beneficial to those in power. And all would be fine, but we have a lot of people at the top who do not understand the specifics of their position at all, hence the problems in some branches of the military - vague concepts, incomprehensible technology, created for some unknown reason and why exactly this, etc.
  • Escobar
    Escobar 1 January 2021 17: 35
    0
    At the very least, we lost the battle for a foreign consumer in this situation. And they eat their own