Military Review

The war to destroy Russia. Why Hitler lost the war in the East

318
The war to destroy Russia. Why Hitler lost the war in the East
Tank landing on German self-propelled guns StuG III at the beginning of Operation Barbarossa.


The war had to be quick and easy, like in Poland or France. The German leadership had absolute confidence in a lightning-fast and crushing victory over Russia.

Fritz Plan


In July 1940, in the General Staff of the Wehrmacht's ground forces, a specific development of a plan for a war with the USSR was already underway. On July 22, the Chief of the General Staff of the Ground Forces F. Halder received the task from the Commander-in-Chief of the Ground Forces to think over various options for the Russian campaign. First, this task was entrusted to the chief of staff of the 18th Army, General Erich Marx, who enjoyed Hitler's special confidence. In planning, he proceeded from the guidelines of Halder, who initiated the general into the military-political program of the Reich in the East.

On July 31, 1940, at a meeting with the high military command, Hitler formulated the general strategic objectives of the war: the first strike - on Kiev, access to the Dnieper, Odessa; the second blow - through the Baltic states to Moscow; then - an offensive from two sides, from the south and north; later - a private operation to seize the oil region of Baku.

On August 5, 1940, the original plan for the war with Russia - "Plan Fritz" was prepared by General Marx. According to this plan, the main blow to Moscow was delivered from Northern Poland and East Prussia. It was supposed to deploy Army Group North, consisting of 68 divisions (including 17 mobile formations). Army Group North was supposed to defeat the Russian troops in the western direction, occupy the northern part of Russia and take Moscow. Then it was planned to turn the main forces to the south and, in cooperation with the southern group of forces, capture the eastern part of Ukraine and the southern regions of the USSR.

The second blow was to be delivered south of the Pripyat Marshes by the forces of Army Group South, consisting of two armies of 35 divisions (including 11 tank and motorized). The goal was to defeat the Red Army in Ukraine, capture Kiev, and cross the Dnieper in the middle reaches.

Further, Army Group South was to act in conjunction with the northern group of forces. Both army groups advanced further to the northeast, east and southeast. As a result, the German armies had to reach the line of Arkhangelsk, Gorky (Nizhny Novgorod) and Rostov-on-Don. 44 divisions remained in the reserve of the main command, which were advancing behind Army Group North.

Thus, the "Fritz plan" envisaged a decisive offensive in two strategic directions, a deep dissection of the Russian front and, after crossing the Dnieper, the coverage of Soviet troops in the center of the country in giant pincers. It was emphasized that the outcome of the war depends on the effective and quick actions of mobile units.

9 weeks were allotted to defeat the Red Army and end the war. In a more unfavorable situation - 17 weeks.


The compiler of the first version of the plan of the German military campaign against the USSR, General Erich Marx.


Marx's Plan (published Aug 5, 1940), according to US government research (March 1955).

Easy walk in the East


Marx's plan showed that the German generals greatly underestimated the military-industrial potential of the USSR and the Red Army, overestimating the Wehrmacht's capabilities in achieving a lightning-fast and crushing victory in such a complex and huge theater of military operations.

The stake was placed on the inefficiency, weakness and inability of the Soviet leadership, which would simply be paralyzed by the war. That is, the German strategic intelligence simply failed the formation of such a manager and leader like Stalin. Poorly studied his political, economic and military environment.

It was assumed that the rejection of the western part of Russia would lead to the collapse of the military-industrial complex of the USSR. That is, German intelligence missed the formation of a new military-industrial base of the USSR in the eastern regions. To prevent the loss of the western part of the country, the Red Army will launch a decisive counteroffensive. The Wehrmacht will be able to destroy the main forces of the Red Army in border battles.

Russia will not be able to restore the strength of its army. And then the German troops, in an atmosphere of complete chaos, as in 1918, with a "railroad march" and small forces, will easily go far to the East.

The Germans believed that a sudden war would cause panic and chaos in Russia, the collapse of the state and political system, and possible military insurgencies and riots in the national outskirts. Moscow will not be able to organize the country, the army and the people to repel the aggressor. The USSR will collapse in a matter of months.

Interestingly, the same mistake was made not only in Berlin, but also in London and Washington. In the west, the USSR was considered a colossus with feet of clay, which would collapse at the first crushing blow of the Reich. This strategic mistake (in assessing the USSR), which was the basis of the original plan for the war with Russia, was not corrected in subsequent planning.

Thus, German intelligence and (based on its data) the top military-political leadership were unable to correctly assess the military power of the USSR. The spiritual, political, economic, military, organizational, scientific, technical and educational potential of Russia was assessed incorrectly.

Hence the subsequent mistakes. In particular, there were huge miscalculations in the determination by the Germans of the size of the Red Army in peacetime and in wartime. The Wehrmacht's assessments of the quantitative and qualitative parameters of our armored forces and the Air Force turned out to be just as incorrect. For example, the Reich intelligence believed that in 1941 the annual production of aircraft in Russia was 3500-4000 machines. In reality, from the beginning of January 1939 to June 22, 1941, the Air Force received over 17,7 thousand aircraft. During the same time, armored waxes received more than 7000 vehicles, of which over 1800 were T-34 and KV tanks. The Germans did not have such heavy tanks as the KV, and the T-34 on the battlefield became unpleasant for them. news.

Therefore, the German leadership was not going to carry out a total mobilization of the country. The war had to be quick and easy, like in Poland or France. There was absolute confidence in a lightning-fast and crushing victory.

On August 17, 1940, at a meeting at the headquarters of the Supreme High Command of the German Armed Forces (OKW), dedicated to the issue of military-economic preparation of the Eastern campaign, Field Marshal Keitel called

“It is a crime to attempt to create at present such productive capacities, which will have an effect only after 1941. You can only invest in such enterprises that are necessary to achieve the goal and will give the appropriate effect. "



Meeting at the headquarters of the high command of the ground forces.
From left to right at the table: Keitel, Brauchitsch, Hitler and Halder. 1940 g.

Lossberg plan


Further work on the plan for the war against Russia was continued by General F. Paulus. He was appointed to the post of Oberkvartirmeister - Assistant Chief of the General Staff of the Ground Forces. Generals, future chiefs of staff of army groups were also involved in the development of a plan for a war with the USSR. On September 17, they prepared their views on the Eastern campaign. Paulus received the task to summarize all the results of operational and strategic planning. On October 29, Paulus prepared a memo "On the main idea of ​​the operation against Russia." It noted that in order to ensure a decisive superiority in forces and means over the enemy, it is necessary to achieve a surprise invasion, to encircle and destroy the Soviet troops in the border zone, not allowing them to retreat inland.

At the same time, a plan for a war with the USSR was being developed at the headquarters of the operational leadership of the Supreme High Command. At the direction of General Jodl, the development of the war plan was led by the chief of the ground forces of the operational department of the OKW headquarters, Lieutenant Colonel B. Lossberg.

By September 15, 1940, Lossberg had submitted his own version of the war plan. Many of his ideas were used in the final version of this plan: the Wehrmacht with a swift blow destroyed the main forces of the Red Army in the western part of Russia, preventing the withdrawal of combat-ready units to the east, and cut off the western part of the country from the seas. The German divisions were supposed to occupy such a line in order to secure the most important parts of Russia and have convenient positions against the Asian bloc. At the first stage of the campaign, the theater of military operations was divided into two parts - north and south of the Pripyat bogs. The German army was to develop an offensive in two operational directions.

Lossberg's plan provided for the offensive of three army groups in three strategic directions: Leningrad, Moscow and Kiev.

Army Group North struck from East Prussia across the Baltic and northwestern regions of Russia to Leningrad.

Army Group Center struck the main blow from Poland through Minsk and Smolensk to Moscow. The bulk of the armored forces was involved here. After the fall of Smolensk, the continuation of the offensive in the central direction was made dependent on the situation in the north. In the event of a delay in Army Group North, it was planned to make a pause in the center and send part of the forces of Group Center to the north.

Army Group South advanced from the region of Southern Poland with the aim of crushing the enemy in Ukraine, taking Kiev, crossing the Dnieper and establishing contact with the right flank of the Center group.

The troops of Finland and Romania were involved in the war with Russia. The German-Finnish troops formed a separate task force, which delivered the main blow to Leningrad and an auxiliary one to Murmansk.

Lossberg's plan envisaged the infliction of powerful dissecting strikes, the encirclement and destruction of large groups of Russian troops. The final line of the Wehrmacht's advance depended on whether an internal catastrophe would occur in Russia after the first successes of the German troops and when it would occur. It was believed that after the loss of the western part of the country, Russia would not be able to continue the war, even taking into account the industrial potential of the Urals. Much attention was paid to the surprise of the attack.


One of the authors of the Barbarossa plan, Friedrich Paulus.

Plan "Otto"


Work on planning a war against the USSR was actively carried out in the General Staff of the Ground Forces and in the headquarters of the operational leadership of the Supreme High Command. This process continued until mid-November 1940, when the High Command of the Ground Forces (OKH) completed the development of a detailed plan for the war against Russia.

The plan was named "Otto". On November 19, it was reviewed and approved by the Commander-in-Chief of the Ground Forces, Brauchitsch. From November 29 to December 7, a war game was held under Otto's plan. On December 5, the plan was presented to Hitler. The Fuehrer approved it in principle. On December 13-14, the war with Russia was discussed at the OKH headquarters.

On December 18, 1940, Hitler signed Directive No. 21. The plan for the war with the USSR was codenamed "Barbarossa".

Note. Frederick I Barbarossa (1155-1190) - German king, emperor of the Holy Roman Empire, initiator of a series of German "crusades" campaigns to the East.

In order to maintain secrecy, the plan was made in only 9 copies. Russia was planned to be defeated during a short campaign even before the victory over England. Destroy the main Russian forces in the western part of the country with deep, swift strikes with tank formations. Prevent the Red Army from retreating to the vast expanses of the eastern part of the USSR. Enter the Arkhangelsk-Volga line, creating a barrier against the Asian part of Russia. Preparations for the start of the campaign in the East were planned to be completed by May 15, 1941.

The plan for the war with the USSR included, in addition to Directive No. 21, a number of directives and orders of the main command. In particular, the OKH directive of January 31, 1941 on the strategic concentration and deployment of troops was of particular importance. It clarified the tasks of the armed forces.

190 divisions were allocated to attack Russia. Of these, 153 German divisions (including 33 tank and motorized) and 37 divisions of Finland, Romania and Hungary, as well as 2/3 of the German Air Force, part of the forces fleet in the Baltic, the Air Force and the Allied Navy. All divisions, except for the reserve (24 of them), were deployed along the western border of Russia. The Reich put up all combat-ready formations for the war with Russia.

In the west and south, there were weakened units with low striking power and mechanization, designed to protect the occupied territories and suppress possible resistance. The only mobile reserve was two tank brigades in France, armed with captured tanks.

To Leningrad, Moscow and Kiev


The Germans delivered the main blow to the north of the Pripyat swamps. Here were located two groups of armies "North" and "Center", most of the mobile formations. Army Group Center under the command of Field Marshal F. Bock advanced in the Moscow direction. It consisted of two field armies (9th and 4th), two tank groups (3rd and 2nd), a total of 50 divisions and 2 brigades. The ground forces were supported by the 2nd Air Fleet.

The Nazis planned to carry out a deep penetration north and south of Minsk with tank groups located on the flanks. Surround and destroy the Belarusian group of the Red Army. After reaching the Smolensk region, Army Group Center could operate according to two scenarios. Reinforce Army Group North with armored divisions, if it cannot defeat the enemy itself, in the Baltics, while continuing to advance in the Moscow direction with field armies. If Army Group North itself defeats the Russians in its offensive zone, continue to move towards Moscow with all its might.

Army Group "North" Field Marshal Leeb included two field armies (16th and 18th), a tank group, a total of 29 divisions. The offensive of the ground forces was supported by the 1st Air Fleet. The Germans advanced from East Prussia, delivering the main blow to Daugavpils and Leningrad. The Nazis planned to destroy the Baltic grouping of the Red Army, seize the Baltic States, ports in the Baltic, including Leningrad and Kronstadt, deprive the Russian fleet of its bases, which led to its death (or capture).

Army Group North, together with the German-Finnish grouping, were to complete the campaign in the northern part of Russia. In Finland and Norway, the German army "Norway" and two Finnish armies were deployed, a total of 21 divisions and 3 brigades.

Finnish troops at the beginning of the war operated in the Karelian and Petrozavodsk directions. With the Germans entering the approaches to Leningrad, the Finnish army was planning to launch a decisive offensive on the Karelian Isthmus (with the aim of joining up with German troops in the Leningrad region).

German troops in the north were to develop an offensive against Murmansk and Kandalaksha. After the capture of Kandalaksha and access to the sea, the southern group received the task of advancing along the Murmansk railway and, together with the northern group, to destroy the enemy troops on the Kola Peninsula, to capture Murmansk. German-Finnish troops were supported by the 5th Air Fleet and the Finnish Air Force.

Army Group South was advancing in the Ukrainian direction under the command of Field Marshal G. Rundstet. The structure consisted of three German field armies (6th, 17th and 11th), two Romanian armies (3rd and 4th), one tank group, and a Hungarian mobile corps. Also the 4th Air Fleet, Air Force of Romania and Hungary. There are 57 divisions and 13 brigades in total, including 13 Romanian divisions, 9 Romanian brigades and 4 Hungarian ones. The Germans were going to destroy the Russian troops in Western Ukraine, cross the Dnieper and develop an offensive in the eastern part of Ukraine.

Hitler had a developed intuition and knowledge of military-economic aspects, therefore he attached great importance to the flanks (Baltic, Black Sea), outskirts (Caucasus, Ural). The Fuehrer's close attention was drawn to the southern strategic direction. He wanted to capture the most resource-rich regions of the USSR (at that time) as quickly as possible - Ukraine, Donbass, the oil regions of the Caucasus.

This made it possible to sharply increase the resource, military-economic potential of the Reich, in order to then wage a struggle for world domination. Moreover, the loss of these regions should have dealt a fatal blow to Russia. In particular, Hitler noted that Donetsk coal is the only coking coal in Russia (at least in the European part of the country), and without it, the production of Soviet tanks and ammunition in the USSR will sooner or later be paralyzed.


War of extermination


The war with Russia, as conceived by Hitler and his associates, was of a special character. It was fundamentally different from the campaigns in Poland, Belgium and France. It was a war of civilizations, Europe against "Russian barbarism."

A war to destroy the world's first socialist state. The Germans had to clear the "living space" for themselves in the East. At a meeting of the high command on March 30, 1941, Hitler noted that

“We are talking about the struggle to destroy ... This war will be very different from the war in the West. In the East, cruelty itself is good for the future. "

This was the attitude towards total genocide of the Russian people. This resulted in a number of documents, where the command demanded from the personnel of the Wehrmacht maximum cruelty towards the enemy army and the civilian population. The directive "On special jurisdiction in the Barbarossa area and on special measures for the troops" required the use of the most severe measures against the civilian population, the destruction of communists, military political workers, partisans, Jews, saboteurs, all suspicious elements. She also predetermined the destruction of Soviet prisoners of war.

The course towards total war, the extermination of the Soviet people was consistently pursued at all levels of the Wehrmacht. On May 2, 1941, in the order of the commander of the 4th Panzer Group Göpner, it was noted that the war against Russia

"Must pursue the goal of turning today's Russia into ruins, and therefore it must be fought with unheard-of cruelty."

It was planned to destroy Russia as a state, to colonize its lands. It was planned to exterminate most of the population in the occupied territory, the rest was subject to eviction to the east (doomed to death from hunger, cold and disease) and enslavement.

The Nazis set a goal

"Crush the Russians as a people"

to exterminate its political class (Bolsheviks) and the intelligentsia, as the bearer of Russian culture. In the occupied and "cleaned" from the "aborigines" territories were going to settle the German colonists.


Adolf Hitler on his birthday on April 20, 1941.
Left to right: Rechsmarshal Hermann Goering, Field Marshal Wilhelm Keitel and SS Rechsfuehrer Heinrich Himmler.
Author:
Photos used:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/, http://waralbum.ru/
318 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. alpamys
    alpamys 21 December 2020 05: 04
    -1
    lately one by one articles of this kind, why?
    1. apro
      apro 21 December 2020 05: 12
      -27%
      Quote: alpamys
      lately one by one articles of this kind, why?

      The Russians won, not the Bolsheviks.
      1. alpamys
        alpamys 21 December 2020 06: 23
        +12
        Quote: apro
        Quote: alpamys
        lately one by one articles of this kind, why?

        The Russians won, not the Bolsheviks.

        so are the Russians winked and the others, then, were sitting out on the Tashkent front?
        1. apro
          apro 21 December 2020 06: 35
          +4
          Quote: alpamys
          Quote: apro
          Quote: alpamys
          lately one by one articles of this kind, why?

          The Russians won, not the Bolsheviks.

          so are the Russians winked and the others, then, were sitting out on the Tashkent front?

          The main thing is to get rid of the Bolsheviks.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 21 December 2020 06: 59
            +39
            Maybe let's put an end to it - the peoples of the USSR won the Great Patriotic War.
            1. apro
              apro 21 December 2020 07: 04
              +10
              Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Maybe let's put an end to it - the peoples of the USSR won the Great Patriotic War.

              I put it long ago, but today many people want to revise it and are moving their versions.
            2. Olgovich
              Olgovich 21 December 2020 08: 01
              +25
              Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
              Maybe let's put an end to it - the peoples of the USSR won the Great Patriotic War.

              It unquestionably.

              But the decisive contribution was made by the Russian people. He suffered the most terrible losses.

              Despite the fact that Russians constituted 50% of the population of the USSR, in the most terrible years 41,42 in the army there were 65%.

              Every 4th-5th Russian, regardless of gender and age, put on an overcoat - truly a people's war

              On the terrible losses of Russian men: after the Second World War in the Non-Black Earth Region, the collective farm had 60 able-bodied, in the USSR on average108 .

              Only peaceful Russians died 8 million ...

              Let us recall Stalin's toast of 1945 ...
              1. BAI
                BAI 21 December 2020 10: 13
                +9
                He suffered the most terrible losses.

                This is how to count. Every third person died on the territory of Belarus.
                1. pmkemcity
                  pmkemcity 21 December 2020 10: 59
                  +14
                  Quote: BAI
                  This is how to count. Every third person died on the territory of Belarus.

                  Weren't they the Russians?
                  1. Snusmumrik
                    Snusmumrik 22 December 2020 21: 48
                    0
                    Taak. Started....
                    I think the answer to this question is best left to the Belarusians themselves.
                2. not main
                  not main 21 December 2020 23: 34
                  +1
                  Quote: BAI
                  He suffered the most terrible losses.

                  This is how to count. Every third person died on the territory of Belarus.

                  I know from childhood, EVERY FOURTH!
                  1. Eragon
                    Eragon 23 December 2020 07: 50
                    0
                    Quote: non-primary
                    I know from childhood, EVERY FOURTH!

                    Unfortunately, in the Soviet calculations of losses in Belarus, for some reason, such a part of the Soviet people as Jews was not taken into account. But, after all, in many cities of Belarus before the aoin their number was up to 70-80%, for example, Bobruisk, Kalinkovichi.
                    The post-war number of Belarusian Jews never reached 1/3 of the pre-war number.
                    1. Foxmara
                      Foxmara 4 January 2021 19: 23
                      0
                      The Jews themselves calculated their losses well. And they monetized. As no one dreamed of. Maybe that's why they didn't count? Otherwise, the numbers could differ greatly
              2. Klausp
                Klausp 21 December 2020 23: 59
                +8
                Despite the fact that the Russians made up 50% of the population of the USSR, in the most terrible years of 41,42 years in the army there were 65%
                / I do not dispute the number of Russians ...
                And now compare the% of the staff in the Red Army from among the communists (members and candidates of the CPSU (b)) of the total number of members of the CPSU (b) - on July 1, 1941 - 563 people (503, 14%), on January 8, 1 - 1942 1 234 people (373%), on January 40, 3 - 1 1943 1 people (938, 327%), on January 50, 3 - 1 1944 2 (702%). That is, more than half of the members of the CPSU (b) by 566 fought in the army.
                In total, communists died in the army in 1941-45. - 4 people. The total losses of the USSR Armed Forces during this period were 139 million people. Thus, the COMMUNISTS, BOLSHEVIKS, generously paid with their lives for the Victory. Moreover, the communists had only one privilege in battle - the first to rise to the attack. And your division into nationalities ... you still divide into religion, into left-handers / right-handers! The Soviet people won the war. There was no other then ...
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 22 December 2020 11: 34
                  -7
                  Quote: KlausP
                  In total, communists were killed in the army in 1941-45. - 4 people. The total losses of the USSR Armed Forces during this period were 139 million.


                  34 million people passed through the Red Army, 26 million non-communists.

                  Out of 8 million communists, every second died, and of the remaining 26 million non-communists, only one was killed .... FIFTH ?! Ie 21.5 million calmly ... survived? belay

                  What's wrong with you?

                  Or out of 26 million, not 4.5, but 13 million died.

                  And yes: among the commanders who lived longer than the rank and file, there were an order of magnitude more communists than among the rank and file who died much more often.
                  Quote: KlausP
                  And your divisions into nationalities ... you still divide into religion, into left-handed / right-handed people! The Soviet people won the war.


                  This is YOU share: the war, according to YOUR logic of "non-division", won
                  also the British and Chinese and Americans, etc. and so on. WHERE do you have them?

                  The war was won by EVERYONE, but the contribution of the RUSSIAN people is the most significant.

                  And yes, the Russian people have been for a thousand years, are and will be. And here ....
                  1. Klausp
                    Klausp 22 December 2020 20: 12
                    +1
                    In general, dear, the losses of the Red Army in the Second World War and the number of those who passed through the Red Army are TWO HUGE DIFFERENCES. Because not everyone who passed through the active army was at the front or even close to it. To the losses of the communists from among the servicemen of the Red Army - 4 people, we should also add the Komsomol members, and from among those who fought in the rear of the Nazi troops, and not only at the front. Then several million more people will be added to the losses of the Bolsheviks. Few? And the children killed by the Nazis, including those who died in battle with weapons in their hands, were all the Octobrists and pioneers? It was the personnel reserve of the Komsomol and the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks)! Will you divide them by nationality too?
                    This is YOU share: the war, according to YOUR logic of "non-division", won
                    also the British and Chinese and Americans, etc. and so on. WHERE do you have them?
                    - no need to ascribe to me what I did not say. And I will say only one thing: in the Great Patriotic War won The Red Army and the Soviet people!
                    1. Olgovich
                      Olgovich 22 December 2020 23: 27
                      -1
                      Quote: KlausP
                      In general, dear, the losses of the Red Army in the Second World War and the number of those who passed through the Red Army are TWO HUGE DIFFERENCES. Because not all those who passed through the active army were at the front or even close to it.

                      Certainly; the deeper, the more communists: you read Mikhin "The artillerymen, Stalin gave the order"
                      Quote: KlausP
                      And the children destroyed by the Nazis, including those who died in battle with weapons in their hands, were all the Octobrists and pioneers?It was also the personnel reserve of the Komsomol and the All-Union Communist Party (b)

                      Leave children at rest. By the way, those children in 1991 didn’t lift a finger for VKPBee
                      Quote: KlausP
                      do not attribute to me what I did not say

                      It is necessary: ​​EVERYONE defeated Germany, incl. and the Americans, the British, the Chinese, and you SPARE the winner
                      Quote: KlausP
                      And I will say only one thing: the Red Army won the Great Patriotic War!

                      Yes.
                      BUT the most significant contribution was made by the RUSSIAN people!

                      And I have always said and will say it with pride.

                      Read Stalin's toast if it doesn't come through again.
                      1. aleksejkabanets
                        aleksejkabanets 23 December 2020 00: 27
                        +2
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Yes.
                        BUT the most significant contribution was made by the RUSSIAN people!

                        And I have always said and will say it with pride.

                        Read Stalin's toast if it doesn't come through again.

                        Why are you endlessly inflating this wild nationalism? Think what it will lead to in our multinational country? Look at the Ukrainian nationalists, are they your idols? Your speech and theirs are very similar.
                      2. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 23 December 2020 08: 54
                        +4
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Why are you endlessly inflating this wild nationalism? Think what it will lead to in our multinational country? Look at the Ukrainian nationalists, are they your idols? Your speech and theirs are very similar.

                        Only in a sick imagination.

                        In the multinational people of Russia, EVERYONE speaks with pride about their people - both Tatars and Ossetians and Russians, etc. - and they really have something to be proud of.

                        Ukrainian type nationalism manifests itself in you: like them, any positive mention of the Russian people gives you an attack.
                      3. aleksejkabanets
                        aleksejkabanets 23 December 2020 09: 52
                        -1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Ukrainian type nationalism manifests itself in you: like them, any positive mention of the Russian people gives you an attack.

                        Can you back up my quote? I didn’t notice that.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        In the multinational people of Russia, EVERYONE speaks with pride about their people - both Tatars and Ossetians and Russians, etc. - and they really have something to be proud of.

                        Here you are right, but in no case should any nation be distinguished from other nations. In the same Great Patriotic War, one cannot look for which people did more for victory and which did less. Maybe at that time Stalin could afford such a toast, but not today. Today there is no Soviet people, but a Tatar, or an Avar, say, does he really consider himself a Russian? I'm not sure that half of them even consider themselves Russians. The exaltation of one nation among the peoples of Russia will inevitably lead to a surge of nationalist sentiments in other nations.
                      4. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 23 December 2020 10: 33
                        +3
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Can you back up my quote?

                        Please:
                        Why are you endlessly inflating this wild nationalism?
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        distinguish from other peoples

                        You should talk about your people without humiliating others
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Today there is no Soviet people, but a Tatar, or an Avar, say, does he really consider himself a Russian? I'm not sure if half of them and Russians then he considers himself.

                        Who then?
                        They are in fact.
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        The exaltation of one nation among the peoples of Russia will inevitably lead to a surge of nationalist sentiments in other nations.

                        Not exalting, but appreciating the REAL contribution. This is History and Truth

                        And she says it is necessary that, for the sake of momentary "benefits" not to cover the real crimes of the Poles, Hungarians, Romanians, Slovaks in WWII. Cheer led to that today. that they are innocent lambs captured by evil Russians

                        И
                      5. aleksejkabanets
                        aleksejkabanets 23 December 2020 10: 53
                        -2
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        And she says it is necessary that, for the sake of momentary "benefits" not to cover the real crimes of the Poles, Hungarians, Romanians, Slovaks in WWII. Cheer led to that today. that they are innocent lambs captured by evil Russians

                        Apparently this is the key expression in your comment. Weren't there real Russian crimes in the Second World War? There were, and they are undeniable, I'm talking about the crimes of the Vlasovites, both in the USSR and in the Balkans. Therefore, I believe that it is more correct and wiser to approach the national question from a "class" position. I have no complaints about the conventional "turner Bill" from the USA or "milling machine Hans" from Germany. Another thing is how the local bourgeois media tuned their minds and why they did it and continue to do it. Domestic media are no different from them. Think, why should the bourgeois state inflate nationalism? Look from such positions, Uzbek Usmanov, Azeri Alikperov, Jew Abramovich do not figure out "which nation is cooler." For some reason, they do not have conflicts on ethnic grounds.
                        And let the slaves squabble among themselves, don't give a damn about what, if only their property is not squeezed out.
                      6. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 23 December 2020 11: 19
                        +3
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        I have no complaints about the conventional "turner Bill" from the USA or "milling machine Hans" from Germany. Another thing is how the local bourgeois media tuned their minds and why they did it and continue to do it.

                        Don't make a literate Hans an ichiot. He understood everything perfectly, just the promised reward in the form of land and mining in Russia outweighed all the ideas of internationalization. So the workers and peasants committed atrocities against the workers and peasants
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Think, why should the bourgeois state inflate nationalism?

                        WHERE do you see nationalism in Britain, France, etc.? There, on the contrary, multiculturalism is flourishing, to the detriment of the indigenous.

                        And, returning to what was said earlier, I will conclude with the words attributed to Suvorov:

                        "I AM RUSSIAN! What a delight !!"
                      7. aleksejkabanets
                        aleksejkabanets 23 December 2020 11: 47
                        -1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Don't make a literate Hans an ichiot. He understood everything perfectly, just the promised reward in the form of land and mining in Russia outweighed all the ideas of internationalization. So the workers and peasants committed atrocities against the workers and peasants

                        Are you ready to talk about class consciousness? That's right, the propaganda of Nazi Germany perfectly "brainwashed" its nation, as a result the nation received a "slave-owning consciousness." Solon is credited with the expression "all people should be equal, free, and everyone should have at least five slaves." The Slavs were not people for them, this is the impact of nationalist propaganda. The Germans were not educated enough to dispel this nonsense. After all, agree with me, the ability to read and count is not the same as a good education.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        WHERE do you see nationalism in Britain, France, etc.? There, on the contrary, multiculturalism is flourishing, to the detriment of the indigenous.

                        Read their press, nationalist movements are on the rise, especially in Germany. In Germany, the national bourgeoisie today is trying to grab a fatter piece of the European pie. Multiculturalism, look at it from an economic point of view. It brings in transnational capital cheap, uneducated, unskilled labor. Here is the whole "multiculturalism", who stands behind it is clear.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        And, returning to what was said earlier, I will conclude with the words attributed to Suvorov:

                        "I AM RUSSIAN! What a delight !!"

                        I'm also Russian and I'm proud of it. I just urge you to take the danger of nationalism extremely seriously. Nationalism, in any form, is death for our multinational country.
                      8. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 23 December 2020 12: 08
                        +3
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        After all, agree with me, the ability to read and count is not the same as a good education.

                        They had enough education to, once captured, immediately become "internationalists" who were "forced" to fight.

                        But you know perfectly well that NOBODY forced them, it can be seen from the toyu, HOW they fought
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Read their press, nationalist movements are on the rise, especially in Germany.

                        There is no upsurge there, I have relatives, friends, colleagues there: everyone is afraid of the Germans' rights, because they will persecute and thrown out of work with a wolf ticket
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        I'm also Russian and I'm proud of it. I just urge you to take the danger of nationalism extremely seriously. Nationalism, in any form, is death for our multinational country.

                        The danger for Russia in the aging and extinction of the Russian people is the strength of the country.
                      9. aleksejkabanets
                        aleksejkabanets 23 December 2020 12: 17
                        -3
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        They had enough education to, once captured, immediately become "internationalists" who were "forced" to fight.

                        Vlasov, who made the war?
                        Remarque has a good story about the Germans on the eastern front in the Second World War. I can't remember the name, there is time to read it, a really interesting look.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        There is no upsurge there, I have relatives, friends, colleagues there: everyone is afraid of the Germans' rights, because they will persecute and thrown out of work with a wolf ticket

                        The press says the opposite, although the cases are, of course, different.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        The danger for Russia in the aging and extinction of the Russian people is the strength of the country.

                        I agree with you, but this is a topic for another conversation.
                      10. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 23 December 2020 13: 00
                        +3
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Vlasov, who made the war?

                        Hunger. Fear of death. Hatred of power.
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Remarque has a good story about the Germans on the eastern front in the Second World War. I can't remember the name, there is time to read it, a really interesting look.

                        Was reading.

                        An interesting look at ours from their side.
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        The press says the opposite, although the cases are, of course, different.

                        People are really afraid to even say that they voted for ADH
                      11. aleksejkabanets
                        aleksejkabanets 23 December 2020 13: 09
                        -2
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        An interesting look at ours from their side.

                        If you recall the name, I will be grateful, I want to reread it, but I cannot find it.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        People are really afraid to even say that they voted for ADH

                        Multinational corporations rule.
                      12. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 23 December 2020 19: 06
                        +2
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        If you recall the name, I will be grateful, I want to reread it, but I cannot find it.

                        Please: "Time to live and time to die"
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Multinational corporations rule.

                        Of the rulers went mad with tolerance, But their-spread rot without pity.
                      13. aleksejkabanets
                        aleksejkabanets 23 December 2020 19: 16
                        +1
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Please: "Time to live and time to die"

                        Thank you.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Of the rulers went mad with tolerance, But their-spread rot without pity.

                        Beat your own, so that strangers would be afraid)))))))
                      14. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 23 December 2020 19: 25
                        +3
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Please: "Time to live and time to die"

                        Thank you.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Of the rulers went mad with tolerance, But their-spread rot without pity.

                        Beat your own, so that strangers would be afraid)))))))

                        Good luck!
  2. Svidetel 45
    Svidetel 45 4 March 2021 22: 13
    0
    It was not Germany that was defeated, but the European Union under the leadership of Hitler, and even the French died on the side of Hitler more than the French on the side of the Allies.
  • Foxmara
    Foxmara 4 January 2021 19: 27
    0
    I just thought. What would have happened if the United States had declared war in 41? And moreover, they would have attacked. To the rear. But then I thought. They have been preparing for three years. And they attacked the rear units. Ours had to save. I think at 41 we would have had no reserves to save the Americans from the Germans ..
  • kyznets
    kyznets 1 March 2021 07: 24
    +1
    And yes: among the commanders who lived longer than the rank and file, there were an order of magnitude more communists than among the rank and file who died much more often.

    The platoon lieutenant lived no more than two attacks. The platoon and company commander were the first to get up and raise the fighters to attack. Raising a platoon or company without getting up yourself will not work. So they raised them - by personal example, when they were kicked and with a pistol. Both the commissars and the rank-and-file communists also stood up first. Ideological people joined the party at the front, not for a career. The platoon commander got up, raised the fighters, and then the foreman - the platoon commander - commanded, because the platoon commander was killed or seriously wounded. And the officers were either Komsomol members or Communists. There were no non-partisans. And the Soviet people won, under the leadership of the party and headed by Stalin. The party led, with Stalin at the head. They won not with parliament and deputies, not with democracy, but with dictatorship. Party ("proletarian") Stalinist dictatorship and mobilized and won. It is a fact.
  • Usher
    Usher 25 December 2020 03: 07
    0
    Because there are more of them. You have strange logic
  • Shkodnik65
    Shkodnik65 21 December 2020 15: 20
    +10
    in the Great Patriotic War, the peoples of the USSR won.
    In the days of my youth it was called - the Soviet people, and somehow the attention was not at all focused on any nation. Moreover, I will say that in Soviet times they would have looked at a person strangely if he had said that the Russians had won. Ours won and that's it.
  • abc_alex
    abc_alex 23 December 2020 12: 21
    0
    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Maybe let's put an end to it - the peoples of the USSR won the Great Patriotic War.

    Yes, that's just the task of destruction and genocide the Nazis set precisely against the Russians. Ethnic Russians. To which then in Europe belonged the entire population of the Slavic republics of the USSR. Then no one in the world singled out Belarusians and Ukrainians as a separate ethnic group. The line of the ethnic delegate of Europe (Curzon's line) unambiguously shows where exactly the area of ​​settlement of Russians took place according to the generally accepted opinion at that time. And Hitler, setting the task of the genocide of the Russians, had in mind this particular ethnic group, including the Little Russians, Belarusians and Great Russians.
    Not the "Soviet people". Russians. He did not care about Kazakhs and Kyrgyz. The Balts were generally considered a different ethnic group. It was supposed to destroy the Russian people and the Russian state.

    And to the question: "Why such articles?" The answer is simple. It is necessary to re-and clearly stipulate that Europe's anti-Sovietism has pronounced Russophobic roots. The fight against the communists only disguised the fight against the Russians, and any European anti-communist (if you scrape it off) is essentially a Russophobe and hater of Russia. It is necessary to say again and again to repeat that a European is essentially a Nazi and a xenophobe, this is the basis of the European mentality, and the Russians for Europeans have always been enemies, hindering the expansion to the east, and thus producing European wars.
    It must be understood that having destroyed the USSR, the Europeans in no way achieved their goals. Their eternal task is to destroy the lid of the European boiler, which locks it from the east. That is, the state of the Russians. And so as to destroy the very possibility of re-creating this state. It is necessary to convey to the mass consciousness the idea that killing Russians for a European does not contradict "European values"; it is not humanism that keeps Europe from a new crusade to the East, but the animal fear of total destruction. This fear will disappear and new Rudolphs, Michaels and Gilbers will rush in a single impulse to "liberate the Russians from tyranny" by the method of carpet bombing. And for this time they will forget internal strife.
    The pacified nonsense of the 90s ended tragically for the Russians. It is necessary to put the thinking apparatus in order again and restore the correct understanding of Europe and the correct attitude towards Europeans. So that at hour X the officer at the control panel does not flinch to press the button with the inscription "Berlin".
    1. Svidetel 45
      Svidetel 45 4 March 2021 22: 19
      0
      200% correct.
  • Trapp1st
    Trapp1st 21 December 2020 10: 34
    +8
    and the others, then, were sitting out on the Tashkent front?

  • svp67
    svp67 21 December 2020 07: 11
    +12
    Quote: apro
    The Russians won, not the Bolsheviks.

    Yes, including the Russians won, but there were many more in the ranks next to them, but the most important thing is that the process itself was controlled by the Bolsheviks, who at that moment managed to show their best fighting qualities and mobilized the peoples of the USSR to Victory
    1. zenion
      zenion 21 December 2020 21: 07
      0
      For the Germans, there was no division according to nationalities, they called everyone Russians and said that everyone should be exterminated. They seem to have read the article, but many did not realize that those who would remain in the occupied territories, which should be Germanized. Those people who were supposed to be slaves with their faces and hair should be like Germans and everyone should be castrated. Leave a small part for the brood until they are completely exterminated by the German colonists and replaced by the Germans and the Baltic.
      1. svp67
        svp67 21 December 2020 21: 11
        0
        Quote: zenion
        For the Germans, there was no division by nationality,

        Here you have an Israel flag above your avatar, and where, where, and then they know for sure that it was not so
        Quote: zenion
        Leave a small part for the brood until they are completely exterminated by the German colonists and replaced by the Germans and the Baltic.

        That is, even here you admit that the Germans separated the Baltic from the peoples of the USSR
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 22 December 2020 12: 38
          0
          Quote: svp67
          Here you have the flag of Israel above your avatar,

          Why isn't it visible to other users? Is there something wrong with the flags, or is it just me?
          1. svp67
            svp67 22 December 2020 12: 40
            0
            Quote: ccsr
            Why isn't it visible to other users?

            Apparently because they are not "moderators"
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. Usher
      Usher 25 December 2020 03: 11
      +2
      do not get fooled by provocations. There are paid provocateurs. Divide and rule, they divide everyone, Belarusians and Ukrainians were invented. Until the 20th century, NOBODY knew about these "PEOPLES" there were territorial differences, but to call it a people? ETHNOGENESIS is not done so quickly and artificially. For example, the ethnogenesis of the Buryats began after the entry of the Mongol tribes and more than 300 years have passed. And then bam and Belarusians and Ukrainians appeared.
  • adler87
    adler87 21 December 2020 13: 50
    -5
    Do you think that if Nikolai remained the second, the result would be the same?
  • boriz
    boriz 22 December 2020 13: 29
    -1
    Well, yes, as WWII lost - so the tsar lost, and how WWII won - so the Russians.
    Who led the country for 15 years to the war?
    1. Sergey Medvedev
      Sergey Medvedev 22 December 2020 16: 31
      -3
      Quote: boriz
      Well, yes, as the PMV lost - so the king lost,

      Actually, Lenin lost the WWI. It was he who signed the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk, not the tsar.
      1. boriz
        boriz 22 December 2020 18: 38
        +3
        That is, he prepared the country for war, started the war, overthrew the tsar and destroyed the army with bad orders by Lenin too?
        1. Sergey Medvedev
          Sergey Medvedev 22 December 2020 21: 43
          -1
          In confirmation of my words, there is the Brest Treaty. The document is very well known.
          Can you confirm your propaganda nonsense with the same serious documents? Unlikely.
          1. boriz
            boriz 22 December 2020 23: 47
            +2
            I have common sense and simple logic on my side.
            The country and the army were successfully destroyed for three years. First the tsar, then Kerensky with his idiotic orders about Soviets in the army and the collapse of the rest of the power structures.
            And what could Lenin do? If he continued to fight, the Germans would have entered St. Petersburg and Moscow. Anyone can take a pose and declare a fool or a traitor to a person who acted in that particular environment 100 years ago.
            And what are your suggestions, what would you do in his place? Please us with your ingenious designs ...
            1. Sergey Medvedev
              Sergey Medvedev 23 December 2020 16: 35
              -1
              Quote: boriz
              I have common sense and simple logic on my side.

              Clear. There are no documents to support your opinion. However, as well as logic with common sense.
              The army "destroyed" by the tsar in 1916 destroyed the Austro-Hungarian army during the Brusilov breakthrough. And Lenin, by the way, also destroyed the army from November 1917 to March 1918, about which you are modestly silent.
              1. Svidetel 45
                Svidetel 45 4 March 2021 22: 29
                0
                Complete nonsense, it was the Provisional Government that destroyed the army, one. Only order # 1 was worth what, and after the Brusilov breakthrough there was a shameful defeat of the Russian army in the summer of 17 during an attempt at an offensive, as a result, the front line rolled back even further to the East, by the fall, units at the front began to leave their positions without permission, by the 18th year of the old army there was practically no, and there was still no new one, so when the Germans went on the offensive there was practically no one to stop them, the Brest Peace was inevitable.
                1. Sergey Medvedev
                  Sergey Medvedev 5 March 2021 12: 52
                  -2
                  If you got into the conversation, then at least read it first. There, one dropout said that the tsar had lost the WWI, I reminded him that the Brest Treaty was a crime of Lenin. And you are here about the interim government. You are trying to smear Lenin. You will drag the Polovtsy with the Pechenegs. Lenin as an excuse.
          2. aleksejkabanets
            aleksejkabanets 22 December 2020 23: 56
            0
            Quote: Sergei Medvedev
            In confirmation of my words, there is the Brest Treaty. The document is very well known.

            What do you know about the Brest Peace?
            Quote: Sergei Medvedev
            Can you confirm your propaganda nonsense with the same serious documents? Unlikely.

            The video contains links to documents. Study.
        2. Eragon
          Eragon 23 December 2020 08: 01
          +1
          Quote: boriz
          That is, he prepared the country for war, started the war, overthrew the tsar and destroyed the army with bad orders by Lenin too?

          Of course not. Nobody prepared the country for war at all (who does not believe - read memoirs, for example, Ignatiev), the tsar was overthrown and the army was destroyed by the provisional government led by Kerensky, by the way, the liberals, and Lenin and the Bolsheviks, in fact, took power from the provisional government and from the remnants the tsarist army created the Red Army (not without jambs, but as best they could).
      2. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 23 December 2020 11: 43
        0
        And the WWII, I suppose, lost to Keitel? He signed the Act of Surrender? fool
  • Civil
    Civil 21 December 2020 08: 54
    +18
    Why does the author have such a set of platitudes?
    Why is the author afraid of the words "Soviet people"?
    Does the author know about the existence of the "Russian Lokot Republic"?
    ROA, KONR and countless "hivi" in the Wehmahat?
    Volunteer SS regiment "Varyag"
    1st Russian national brigade SS "Druzhina"
    15-th Cossack Cavalry Corps SS
    29th SS Volunteer Infantry Division "RONA" (1st Russian)
    30th SS Volunteer Infantry Division (2nd Russian)
    36th SS Volunteer Infantry Division "Dirlewanger"
    SS Legion "Idel-Ural"

    Where the respected author will rank these collaborators. In that sense, why didn't the Germans shoot them?
    Maybe because there was no confrontation between Russians and Germans? And the Soviet state against the Nazi Reich? An international workers 'and peasants' state against the Nazi Reich with a misanthropic ideology?
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 21 December 2020 11: 21
      -10%
      Quote: Civil
      Why is the author afraid of the words "Soviet people"?

      Why are you afraid of the word "Russian people"?

      He was not there then, he disappeared somewhere?

      It is still there, yes!
      Quote: Civil
      Does the author know about the existence of the "Russian Lokot Republic"?
      ROA, KONR and countless "hivi" in the Wehmahat?

      Did you know that 1 million conscience citizens served the Germans?

      This has never happened in the history of the country.
      Quote: Civil
      Maybe because there was no opposition Russians - Germans? An international workers 'and peasants' state against the Nazi Reich with a misanthropic ideology?


      Maybe remember that those "Workers of all countries, unite! " from these very many countries came to us and committed the most heinous atrocities in history in relation to ... the workers and peasants of the workers 'and peasants' state.

      There was no Russian confrontation, you say?
      But in 1941 they thought differently, life made:

      On Russian customs, only conflagration
      On the Russian scattering the earth behind,
      Before our eyes, comrades were dying,
      By-Russian torn his shirt at the chest.

      Bullets with you are still being pampered.
      But, three times believing that life is all over,
      I was still proud for the sweetest,
      For the bitter land where I was born,

      For the fact that on her die bequeathed to me,
      That Russian mother gave birth to us,
      What, in the battle escorting us, russian woman
      On-Russian hugged me three times.
      1941


      And then it was about the GERMANS:
      "How many times will you see him-
      KILL him so many times!
      1. Civil
        Civil 21 December 2020 12: 03
        +4
        Why are you afraid of the word "Russian people"?

        Nothing of the kind, the Russian people, together with all the peoples of the USSR that made up the "Soviet people", fought for their communist ideals under the leadership of the Bolsheviks, no matter how you think about it.
        committed the most heinous atrocities in history against ... the workers and peasants of the workers 'and peasants' state.

        Even if we assume that there were excesses, they were repressed not out of a sense of national superiority and not for the purpose of destruction on a racial basis.
        According to Russian customs, only conflagrations
        On the Russian land,
        Before our eyes, comrades were dying,
        In Russian, shirt ripped on his chest.

        Yeah, so if a conventional Tatar died in Tatar, then his feat was not counted?
        And then it was about the GERMANS

        The Germans were also different,
        In 1933-1945, 3,5 million Germans were sent to concentration camps, of which 500 thousand were killed ... for example, almost all communists ...
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 21 December 2020 13: 34
          -4
          Quote: Civil
          Nothing of the kind, the Russian people, together with all the peoples of the USSR that made up the "Soviet people" fought for their communist ideals under the leadership of the Bolsheviks, no matter how you feel about it.

          Fought for the FATHERLAND, as always during THOUSANDS let of his History, when there was no smell of "Bolsheviks!"

          There were none on the Kulikovo field, or near Borodino in 1812, or in Paris, or under Navarin, Sinop, etc., etc.
          And nothing, -was somehow corrected, they built the largest country in the world.

          And when it went to stand up for the "communes" ideas in 1991, NOBODY stood up for them, neither here, nor in the environment that rushed from them at all blades

          And yes, the overwhelming number of soldiers-winners of the Second World War-non-communists.


          Quote: Civil
          Even if we assume that there were excesses, they were repressed not out of a sense of national superiority and not for the purpose of destruction on a racial basis.

          Yes, I’m talking about something else: we have CREDITED workers and peasants more than a dozen countries and no international ideas of the proletarian brotherhood with the "state of workers and peasants" and none of them remembered.

          And yes, most of the NSDAP are workers and peasants
          Quote: Civil
          Yeah, so if a conventional Tatar died in Tatar, then his feat was not counted?

          Everything is considered with great respect for all Heroes.

          BUT, in a difficult moment they turned to RUSSIAN patriotism, because it was he who DECIDED the fate of the country. This was deliberately and stated already in Stalin's report on November 7, 1941 , hence the Russian generals on orders, etc.
          Quote: Civil
          The Germans were also different,
          In 1933-1945, 3,5 million Germans were sent to concentration camps, of which 500 thousand were killed ... for example, almost all communists ...

          Nonsense: out of 300 German. Communists only HALF (000 thousand) were persecuted and camps, the rest were not touched, and only tens of thousands died.

          By the way, in the USSR SEVENTY% of them were repressed. communists who fled to the USSR.

          Part of the communes. , by the way, joined the NSDAP.

          We went through war and atrocities in the USSR TENS million German, etc. workers and peasants, TENS of million Germans their warmly supported fed and armed. AND - NO uprisings, etc.
          1. Civil
            Civil 21 December 2020 13: 57
            +2
            They fought for the FATHERLAND, as always during a THOUSAND years of their History, when there was no smell of any "Bolsheviks! There were no Bolsheviks either on Kulikovo Field, or near Borodino in 1812, or in Paris, or under Navarin, Sinop, etc.

            Okay, let's analyze this too. Is there evidence of the existence of the "Russians" as a single nation during the battle on the Kulikovo field? Did Dmitry Donskoy recognize most of his troops as Russians? Was equal to the rabble?
            In the Battle of Borodino, in Paris, Sinope, gentlemen nobles recognized Russian serfs as people? Did you consider yourself equal? Or did they still serve people below the price of cattle and keep harems of Russian peasant women?
            And weren't these gentlemen, under the crunch of French buns, who drove an army of Russian people to the slaughter in 1914? And they lost first their power, and then the First World War.
            But I’m talking about something else: the workers and peasants of more than a dozen countries committed atrocities and no international ideas of the proletarian brotherhood, and no one remembered them.

            TENS of million German workers and peasants went through the war in the USSR

            This is what we are talking about, fooled and intoxicated by the feeling of their superiority over the Russians and Bolshevism, they did terrible things, against which the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army, or the Soviet Army, fought.
            BUT, in a difficult moment they turned to RUSSIAN patriotism, because it was he who DECIDED the fate of the country.

            And to him too, the country was in trouble. You can read, the Soviet people were called to fight even more and more often, and this was the main path in propaganda.
            Of course, the Russian people made the main contribution to the military victory, but first of all they were Soviet people and they fought for the Soviet Motherland and for the ideals of communism. From Brest to Vladivostok, from Tiksi to Kushka. And half of Europe was put on the rails of socialism. But that is another story.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 21 December 2020 16: 42
              -3
              Quote: Civil
              Is there evidence of the existence of the "Russians" as a single nation during the battle on the Kulikovo field? Did Dmitry Donskoy recognize most of his troops as Russians?

              There is:
              .
              “God is our refuge and strength! -
              Dmitry rivers on the brow of the regiments. -
              We will die when fate has judged! "
              And the first one struck at the enemies.
              Blood gushed - and clouds of dust,
              Rising like a whirlwind to heaven,
              They hid the light of the day from their eyes,
              And darkness spread across the fields.
              .Enemies shifted - from the mound
              Has rushed: "The Russian god is strong!"-
              And the army of the tyrant ran,
              And the horn of pride is broken!
              The khan rushed into the deaf steppes,
              Behind him is the noisy lie of fear;
              Dissolved Russian slavery chain
              And he stood on the enemy's bones !.
              Rileyev
              Quote: Civil
              In the Battle of Borodino, in Paris, Sinope, gentlemen nobles recognized Russian serfs as people? Did you consider yourself equal?

              They together died for their homeland. Bullet and buckshot did not know the difference
              Quote: Civil
              This is what we are talking about, fooled and intoxicated by the feeling of their superiority over the Russians and Bolshevism, they did terrible things, against which the Workers 'and Peasants' Red Army fought,

              Workers and peasants Germany committed atrocities in the workers' cross. state-ve.
              they understood everything perfectly well, but the future reward of lands and riches outweighed "internationalism"
              Quote: Civil
              for the ideals of communism

              How much was paid for them in 1991? Not at all? Not at all

              And EVERYONE stood up for the Fatherland in 1941. Therefore, the war is called Patriotic... Not "communist" or "socialist"
              Quote: Civil
              And half of Europe was put on the rails of socialism.

              From which EVERYTHING rushed, as the reins were slightly weakened.

              There just had to be our bases at all times, regardless of the regime, and this should have been discussed immediately after the Second World War.
              And do not rely on comm. "allies"
              1. Civil
                Civil 22 December 2020 07: 28
                0
                Rileyev

                Got it. Written by a veteran of the Battle of Kulikovo laughing you can't argue against the facts)

                They died together for their Motherland. Bullet and buckshot did not know the difference

                That is, in life there are slaves and their masters, but you have to endure and die - ops and everyone is equal))) laughing
                How much was paid for them in 1991? Not at all? Not at all

                Then the Bolsheviks had already left and yours came, who wiped their feet on the veterans of the Great Patriotic War. And now they are not shy, despite their age.
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 22 December 2020 11: 44
                  +1
                  Quote: Civil
                  Got it. The veteran of the Battle of Kulikovo wrote against the facts.

                  Few? See "Tale of Bygone Years"
                  Quote: Civil
                  That is, in life, slaves and their masters,

                  War ... not life? belay

                  And there they died for the Fatherland shoulder to shoulder.
                  Quote: Civil
                  Then the Bolsheviks had already left and yours came, who wiped their feet on the veterans of the Great Patriotic War.

                  Where did they go? To the Milky Way? WHAT are you grinding? fool

                  And yes, what was your "system" worth if, with its ONLY power, it turned out to be incapable of raising the Bolsheviks, but only growing urots in the administration?

                  And "mine" is also YOUR Bolsheviks of the HIGHEST level - members of the Central Committee of the CPSU - the purest product of YOUR system - EBN, MG, AYa, etc., etc.
                  1. Svidetel 45
                    Svidetel 45 4 March 2021 22: 37
                    0
                    Don't confuse God's gift with scrambled eggs, don't confuse shape-shifters like EBN, with party tickets with communists, who were the first to go to the most difficult areas when they raised the country from the ruins of the Civil, or were the first to rise under bullets to attack, if you don't see the difference, well years this is a problem, not mature enough to understand.
              2. Sugar Honeyovich
                Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 10: 40
                0
                Quote: Olgovich
                They died together for their Motherland. Bullet and buckshot did not know the difference

                But unlike the nobles, the peasants still died under the gauntlets. At the whim of the nobles.
                1. Eragon
                  Eragon 23 December 2020 13: 33
                  +2
                  Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                  But unlike the nobles, the peasants still died under the gauntlets. At the whim of the nobles.

                  Uh-huh. And nothing that the tyrant and strangler of the workers and peasants, the tsarist general A.I.Denikin, the grandson of a serf. Probably dead under the gauntlets.
                  1. Sugar Honeyovich
                    Sugar Honeyovich 23 December 2020 15: 58
                    -2
                    And there is information that is not?
                    1. Eragon
                      Eragon 23 December 2020 19: 24
                      +3
                      Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                      And there is information that is not?

                      Sorry, wrong. The grandfather was not a serf, but the father. He was "zabrit" in the soldiers, rose to the rank of major of the border service. After 25 years he retired. Spitsrutenami definitely not clogged.
            2. Mikhail Tynda
              Mikhail Tynda 22 December 2020 07: 06
              +3
              [Quote] Is there evidence of the existence of the "Russians" as a single nation during the battle on the Kulikovo field? Did Dmitry Donskoy recognize most of his troops as Russians? Was equal to the rabble? [Quote] There was an ethnic group. “The Russian ethnos was born on the Kulikovo field,” writes L. Gumilev, “on a cramped, overgrown forest and swamp area, no more than 30 square kilometers in size, from where a handful of new Russians emerged, the founders of the ethnos that still lives today.” And at Borodino and Sinop, in the first defense of Sevastopol, at Poltava, Lesnaya and Gangut, the RUSSIANS fought. United ethnos. And in spite of serfdom, both officers and soldiers did not stop being Russian. They were one people and one army. And they fought for Russia and died in the same way. As later in Port Arthur and in the Brusilov breakthrough. Yes, in Russia there was a division according to class characteristics, but never, you hear, Russians never stopped being a single people because of this.
              1. Civil
                Civil 22 December 2020 07: 19
                -1
                Yes, in Russia there was a division according to class characteristics, but never, you hear, Russians never stopped being a single people because of this.

                Even when the Russian master was selling the family of a Russian soldier? Did they directly love each other, did they slaughter nobles, gendarmes, officials during the revolution? The elite of the Republic of Ingushetia never considered the rabble as Russians, and they themselves were more attributed to the elite of Europe. Do not lie.
                1. Mikhail Tynda
                  Mikhail Tynda 22 December 2020 09: 53
                  +4
                  That is, when in England or France the peasants during the uprising slaughtered the nobles and their ilk ceased to be English and French? What kind of heresy? That is, being nobles, admirals Spiridov, Ushakov, Kornilov, Istomin, Nakhimov were not Russians? Suvorov was a nobleman and owned serfs, he was not Russian? Kutuzov was then not at all extremely Russian. Is Prince Menshikov a Papuan then? Do not confuse x ... p with a tram handle.
                  1. Civil
                    Civil 22 December 2020 10: 11
                    -2
                    Quote: Mikhail Tynda
                    That is, being noblemen, admirals Spiridov, Ushakov, Kornilov, Istomin, Nakhimov were not Russians? Suvorov was a nobleman and owned serfs, he was not Russian? Kutuzov then was not at all extremely Russian. Is Prince Menshikov a Papuan then?

                    For whose interests did the gentlemen of the nobility fight? And what are the results for 1917? What did the serfs get from this? Which one is Russian?
                    1. Mikhail Tynda
                      Mikhail Tynda 22 December 2020 11: 04
                      +4
                      Don't answer a question with a question. It is clearly defined. And by the way, did the serfs separate themselves from the country? What does 1917 have to do with this? And it turns out that during the Great Patriotic Order of Kutuzov, Nakhimov, Ushakov, they were named in honor of who did not catch?
                    2. Civil
                      Civil 22 December 2020 12: 12
                      -1
                      And it turns out that during the Great Patriotic Order of Kutuzov, Nakhimov, Ushakov, they were named in honor of who did not catch?

                      The war was, they did not choose how to motivate the army. And so the gentlemen, the nobles fought for the king, his autocracy and its basis - serfdom. For the well-being of their own estates and serfdom. They did not fight for the disenfranchised peasants, they did not have the right to nationality. From which at that time the Fatherland consisted all Russia.
                      Chosen by fate to destroy people.
                      Here the lordship is wild, without feeling, without law,
                      Arrogated to itself by a violent vine
                      And labor, and property, and time of the farmer;
                      Bowing to an alien plow, subjugating the scourges,
                      Here skinny slavery drags on the reins
                      Relentless owner;
                      Here, a painful rampage to the grave, everyone attracts;
                      Not daring to nourish hopes and inclinations in the soul,
                      Here young maidens bloom
                      For the whim of a depraved villain;
                      Support dear to aging fathers,
                      Young sons, comrades of labor,
                      From the hut, they go to multiply themselves
                      Courtyard crowds of tortured slaves ...

                      A. Pushkin
                    3. Mikhail Tynda
                      Mikhail Tynda 22 December 2020 12: 20
                      +2
                      There was a war, they didn't choose ... That is, all the above-mentioned historical figures, outsiders in your opinion, had some kind of influence on the people? Of course they did, otherwise the orders would not have been named after them. Not being part of the people were recognized by the people? So? One more thing, why then did I.V. Stalin return shoulder straps to the army, not Russian in your opinion, noblemen?
                      And yet, they fought for the Faith, the Tsar and the Fatherland, both soldiers and officers (not always by the way nobles). As later, For the Motherland, for Stalin.
                    4. Civil
                      Civil 22 December 2020 12: 24
                      0
                      As later, For the Motherland, for Stalin.

                      For the Soviet Motherland, for COMRADE Stalin. Who gave everything - rights, work, hope, justice. And not for your fat tsars, corrupt presidents, and even more so not for a cohort of slave-owners, nobles. People still remembered the difference and the cost of Free Education and Free Health Care. Now they began to remember what and how. But it's too late.
                    5. Mikhail Tynda
                      Mikhail Tynda 22 December 2020 12: 40
                      +3
                      That is, Comrade Stalin is wrong that he called the orders in honor of the tsarist generals and naval commanders? And the "stupid" people did not reject this, but, inspired by their example, fought?
                    6. Civil
                      Civil 22 December 2020 12: 54
                      -2
                      Quote: Mikhail Tynda
                      That is, Comrade Stalin is wrong that he called the orders in honor of the tsarist generals and naval commanders? And the "stupid" people did not reject this, but, inspired by their example, fought?

                      That is, there were no Orders of the Red Banner? The Order of Lenin was not the main one? The flag was royal and there were no red stars? If there was something in the agitation of a few that was not significant in comparison with Soviet symbols? And he received the parade standing at the Cathedral of Christ the Savior? A special case of Soviet propaganda is no more your orders, and even more so posters. None of the Soviet people to fight again for the Tsar, and even more so for the slave owners in 1941, did not want to believe them.
                    7. Mikhail Tynda
                      Mikhail Tynda 22 December 2020 13: 04
                      +2
                      This is the wisdom of that Leader, that he was able to unite the past and the present. He perceived Russia-USSR as a single whole, as stages in the development of one whole. And so in his office there were portraits of Suvorov and Kutuzov, along with portraits of Marx and Lenin. And the Russian people have always been one. And the serfs fought not for fear, but for conscience, and there would not have been the Patriotic War of 1812, the defense of Sevastopol, the Italian campaign of Suvorov.
                2. Mikhail Tynda
                  Mikhail Tynda 22 December 2020 12: 45
                  +3

                  JV Stalin was wiser than many and understood that the strength of the people is in unity. And in connection with history.
                3. Civil
                  Civil 22 December 2020 12: 55
                  -3
                  Quote: Mikhail Tynda

                  JV Stalin was wiser than many and understood that the strength of the people is in unity. And in connection with history.


                  Where are the royal banners? Where is the two-headed eagle? Where is the slogan "For Faith, the Tsar and the Boot of the beloved master" or "We will defend serfdom", shall we give up "Education and Medicine"? laughing laughing
                4. Mikhail Tynda
                  Mikhail Tynda 22 December 2020 13: 10
                  +2
                  And where does the banner and all the other attributes of your favorite BDSM? Are princes depicted - nobles? Bar? And where does medicine and education? We, in my opinion (well, I thought so) talked about the unity of the people?
                5. Civil
                  Civil 22 December 2020 13: 55
                  0
                  Quote: Mikhail Tynda
                  We, in my opinion (well, I thought so) talked about the unity of the people?

                  That's right, unity can be based, at least, on justice, and not on abstract slogans in which only gentlemen believed. If you call yourself a Russian, be kind, consider all Russians your equal, and not when the European nobles want to take away your Russian slaves, and you turn to them "help the Russian people", and when there is no war, "the slave is gone."
      2. Mikhail Tynda
        Mikhail Tynda 22 December 2020 12: 28
        +2
        Ay. What is the use of the poems of the owner of serf souls? And not Russian? How so?
      3. Civil
        Civil 22 December 2020 12: 34
        -2
        Quote: Mikhail Tynda
        Ay. What is the use of the poems of the owner of serf souls? And not Russian? How so?

        And many serfs received education at that time? At least basic? And how many of them skillfully write poetry ... hordes and volumes of poetry and memoirs. I don’t want to write the car about time.
        At the time of Pushkin, even among the nobility, reading and writing in Russian was considered a rare perversion. Tolstoy to help you.
      4. Mikhail Tynda
        Mikhail Tynda 22 December 2020 12: 35
        +2
        Eeeee ... So what?
  • Usher
    Usher 25 December 2020 03: 15
    -2
    Quote: Olgovich
    Quote: Civil
    Nothing of the kind, the Russian people, together with all the peoples of the USSR that made up the "Soviet people" fought for their communist ideals under the leadership of the Bolsheviks, no matter how you feel about it.

    Fought for the FATHERLAND, as always during THOUSANDS let of his History, when there was no smell of "Bolsheviks!"

    There were none on the Kulikovo field, or near Borodino in 1812, or in Paris, or under Navarin, Sinop, etc., etc.
    And nothing, -was somehow corrected, they built the largest country in the world.

    And when it went to stand up for the "communes" ideas in 1991, NOBODY stood up for them, neither here, nor in the environment that rushed from them at all blades

    And yes, the overwhelming number of soldiers-winners of the Second World War-non-communists.


    Quote: Civil
    Even if we assume that there were excesses, they were repressed not out of a sense of national superiority and not for the purpose of destruction on a racial basis.

    Yes, I’m talking about something else: we have CREDITED workers and peasants more than a dozen countries and no international ideas of the proletarian brotherhood with the "state of workers and peasants" and none of them remembered.

    And yes, most of the NSDAP are workers and peasants
    Quote: Civil
    Yeah, so if a conventional Tatar died in Tatar, then his feat was not counted?

    Everything is considered with great respect for all Heroes.

    BUT, in a difficult moment they turned to RUSSIAN patriotism, because it was he who DECIDED the fate of the country. This was deliberately and stated already in Stalin's report on November 7, 1941 , hence the Russian generals on orders, etc.
    Quote: Civil
    The Germans were also different,
    In 1933-1945, 3,5 million Germans were sent to concentration camps, of which 500 thousand were killed ... for example, almost all communists ...

    Nonsense: out of 300 German. Communists only HALF (000 thousand) were persecuted and camps, the rest were not touched, and only tens of thousands died.

    By the way, in the USSR SEVENTY% of them were repressed. communists who fled to the USSR.

    Part of the communes. , by the way, joined the NSDAP.

    We went through war and atrocities in the USSR TENS million German, etc. workers and peasants, TENS of million Germans their warmly supported fed and armed. AND - NO uprisings, etc.

    What nonsense I've read !!!!!! Were Russians on the sandpiper field? Can you find out in which principality they were?
  • Squelcher
    Squelcher 21 December 2020 18: 35
    +2
    The traitor Vlasov was one of the poorest peasants, and Karbyshev D.M. from the hereditary nobles preferred death to betrayal.
    1. Civil
      Civil 22 December 2020 07: 21
      -2
      Quote: Squelcher
      The traitor Vlasov was one of the poorest peasants, and Karbyshev D.M. from the hereditary nobles preferred death to betrayal.

      Since you are here, then you are not from the nobility, also from the overwhelming majority of servants. Are you missing the master's boot? lol No need to answer. This is a rhetorical question.
      1. Squelcher
        Squelcher 22 December 2020 08: 22
        +1
        I don't need a Fuhrer, Stalin, Lenin or bulk to build my life and be a man.
      2. Snusmumrik
        Snusmumrik 22 December 2020 21: 59
        0
        Together with you))) wassat
  • anykin
    anykin 21 December 2020 19: 24
    +2
    Quote: Civil
    Where the respected author will rank these collaborators.

    To consumables pt
  • zenion
    zenion 21 December 2020 21: 09
    +1
    Do not frighten people, they do not know and do not tell anyone how it was in the Krasnodar Territory, this is a state secret.
  • sharp-lad
    sharp-lad 21 December 2020 23: 39
    0
    And when did the fascists begin to gather representatives of the "eastern barbarians" under their banner?
  • boriz
    boriz 22 December 2020 13: 32
    +2
    There was a confrontation between the Russians and the Germans, you can't get away from it. Who declared the Slavs inferior?
    And then it turned out that the Aryans were just Slavs, not Germans.
  • Snusmumrik
    Snusmumrik 22 December 2020 21: 58
    +2
    Of course, I can't give a grudge, but it seems that during the seizures of Poland, France and other Europeans, the Reich did without any divisions of collaborators from the captured states. Could - I think, would have captured the Union only by the Germans. In confirmation of the superiority of the Germanic race.
    And the fact that the collaborators were not shot was before the victory. After the victory, the eagles of Müller would quickly clean up half, and the other half - to guard the concentration camps. Beauty - Russians guard Russians.
    There was no confrontation between the Germans and the Russians. But there was a confrontation between the Nets - Slavs, Jews, Gypsies, etc. The inferiority of these peoples was officially declared.
  • Civil
    Civil 21 December 2020 09: 05
    +8
    Quote: alpamys
    lately one by one articles of this kind, why?

    They want to convince the public that:
    1. The victory of the USSR in 1945 is equal to the victory of Russia in 1945, but this is impossible, the first workers 'and peasants' state cannot be equal to the petty-bourgeois capitalist country of the 3rd world.
    2. That all Russians need to unite before the Wehrmacht attack in the near future. Schizophrenia what can you do. There is no Wehrmacht, as there is no state of workers and peasants either.

    Articles like this squeeze the latter out to freeze people in the country, against the background of terrible social stratification. The elite are very much afraid of rebellion, so they are looking to come up with such a thing. Although the answer lies on the surface.
    1. anykin
      anykin 21 December 2020 19: 57
      +2
      Quote: Civil
      The victory of the USSR in 1945 is equal to the victory of Russia in 1945

      Well, if you listen to about "not our wars" ... (
      Boomerang! Those who spit on the empire get spit on the union.
  • apro
    apro 21 December 2020 05: 11
    +13
    Why, speaking of the events of 1941 1945, instead of the USSR, they use Russia? I have an obvious answer. This is the only event in the 20th century where an unconditional victory was won and given the status of a superpower to the USSR. No matter how much the Soviet power was scared, but its merit in these events is the main one. which infuriates today not only Western partners, but also the new Russians who gained power in 1991, and wanting to somehow maintain their image, as if the superpowers use these events for their own significance.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 21 December 2020 07: 04
      +17
      Dear Apro.
      If you read the memoirs of I.V. Stalin, you can be surprised to find that the leader of all peoples also used the definitions "Russia" and "Russian people", no less often than "USSR" and "Soviet people". Apparently without making any special distinctions.
      Many foreign delegations were jarred by this.
      1. apro
        apro 21 December 2020 07: 08
        +5
        What the IVS Stalin did is one thing, but what the Russian leadership is doing about this today is completely different.
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Many foreign delegations were jarred by this.

        They were even more jarred by the USSR.
        1. Boris55
          Boris55 21 December 2020 07: 40
          -11%
          Quote: apro
          What the IVS Stalin did is one thing, but what the Russian leadership is doing about this today is completely different.

          What Stalin did - turned the USSR into an industrial power, which made it possible to win the Second World War.
          What is Putin doing - transformed the Russian Armed Forces into the most advanced army in the world, which does not allow enemies to attack us.

          Putin took into account the mistakes of past leaders who asked for 20 years of calm (Stolypin) and Stalin's experience. The primary task is to ensure the country's defense capability, and only then proceed to its development.

          If the walls of the house are not erected, there is no point in buying furniture.
          1. strannik1985
            strannik1985 21 December 2020 08: 03
            +5
            If the walls of the house are not erected

            There is a difference, in the days of Stalin, only a massive army could defend the country, but it will not appear without its own industry and agriculture, the experience of the First World War, so first money, and then chairs.
            Now, instead of a massive army of strategic nuclear forces, no one will dare to attack the Russian Federation directly, despite all the superiority of NATO over the Russian Armed Forces.
            1. Boris55
              Boris55 21 December 2020 08: 11
              -12%
              Quote: strannik1985
              despite all the superiority of NATO over the RF Armed Forces.

              Their "superiority", a coalition of 60 countries, has shown itself in Syria - nothing they can do.
              Their myth about their superiority is one solid Hollywood (cartoons):

              1. Boris55
                Boris55 21 December 2020 08: 30
                -5
                Wow, how many minke lovers we have here laughing The biggest difference between us and them is that our forces are formed to defend and theirs to attack. For all strategies, there should be three times more attackers than defenders.

                The dream of our ancestors: "Let's catch up and overtake America" ​​- has come true. Today, the United States is in the role of catch-up, and this is a fact!
              2. strannik1985
                strannik1985 21 December 2020 10: 13
                +1
                Their "superiority"

                In Syria, the Russian Federation / NATO and 10% of the military potential were not used, precisely because of the danger of a direct military clash.
                1. Boris55
                  Boris55 21 December 2020 12: 14
                  +1
                  Quote: strannik1985
                  In Syria, the Russian Federation / NATO and 10% of the military potential were not used

                  In other words, do you think that our army is not capable of defending our independence and therefore no reforms should be carried out inside the country? laughing
            2. Civil
              Civil 21 December 2020 08: 57
              0
              Quote: strannik1985
              Now, instead of a massive army of strategic nuclear forces, no one will dare to attack the Russian Federation directly, despite all the superiority of NATO over the Russian Armed Forces.

              And this is a gift from the Soviet regime, not an achievement of modern Russia.
            3. ccsr
              ccsr 21 December 2020 12: 17
              +1
              Quote: strannik1985
              Now, instead of a massive army of strategic nuclear forces, no one will dare to attack the Russian Federation directly, despite all the superiority of NATO over the Russian Armed Forces.

              I wonder what parameter you used to calculate "NATO's superiority over the RF Armed Forces" - name how we are inferior to this bloc, only without blah-blah-blah about the number, budget, etc. but purely in terms of the combat capabilities of our country.

              Quote: Boris55
              Their myth about their superiority is one solid Hollywood (cartoons):

              I agree that this is more Hollywood - the Americans have been in Afghanistan for at least 20 years and there have been no visible military successes in the war against the Taliban.
              1. strannik1985
                strannik1985 21 December 2020 14: 23
                -4
                I wonder by what parameter

                https://lopatov-45.livejournal.com/16277.html
                I agree that this is more Hollywood

                Does it bother you that a little earlier the USSR could not win in Afghanistan? Hollywood too?
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 21 December 2020 18: 05
                  +5
                  Quote: strannik1985
                  https://lopatov-45.livejournal.com/16277.html

                  Text from LJ:
                  Let's count the tanks ...

                  Do you think this is a serious argument? Do not make me laugh...
                  Quote: strannik1985
                  Does it bother you that a little earlier the USSR could not win in Afghanistan?

                  The trouble is that, unlike the Americans, we did not fight against Afghanistan, and our hands were tied in that war by "brotherly relations." Hence such an outcome. But nevertheless, we were there less, and the financial capabilities of the USSR could not be compared with the American ones - this is the answer to your question, why it is incorrect to compare these two wars.
                  1. strannik1985
                    strannik1985 21 December 2020 18: 19
                    -3
                    Do you think this is a serious argument?

                    Почему нет?
                    The trouble is

                    Really fought with Pakistan or China on the territory of Afghanistan ???
                    1. ccsr
                      ccsr 21 December 2020 18: 56
                      +4
                      Quote: strannik1985
                      Really fought with Pakistan or China on the territory of Afghanistan ???

                      These countries actively supported the mujahideen with various weapons and training. But compared to the United States, it was a trifle - that's who annoyed us at that time. By the way, if we were now helping the Taliban, the flow of coffins in the United States would be more significant than during the Soviet era.
                      1. strannik1985
                        strannik1985 21 December 2020 19: 13
                        +1
                        These countries actively supported the mujahideen

                        Bingo! If no one officially supports the Taliban now, where do the Taliban get their money from?
                      2. ccsr
                        ccsr 21 December 2020 19: 22
                        +3
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        If no one is officially supporting the Taliban now, where do the Taliban get their money from?

                        Yes, there are so many frozen Islamists in that region that they successfully solve the money issue, judging by the fact that even European Muslims go to fight.
                      3. strannik1985
                        strannik1985 21 December 2020 19: 31
                        0
                        Yes, in that region of frostbitten Islamists

                        And the most frostbitten ones consistently buy American weapons and military equipment in huge quantities, the Americans now do not have serious leverage on pro-Chinese Pakistan, but more than enough on Saudi Arabia and other monarchies. Which leads to a logical question - what is victory for the United States in Afghanistan (as well as in Iraq, Syria, Libya and other countries where there were "color revolutions")?
                2. Aviator_
                  Aviator_ 21 December 2020 19: 06
                  +2
                  Really fought with Pakistan or China on the territory of Afghanistan ???

                  And whose instructors and whose weapons were the Basmachs in Afghanistan? It is them, and even NATO (mines, MANPADS)
        2. anykin
          anykin 21 December 2020 20: 05
          +1
          Quote: strannik1985
          no one dares to attack the Russian Federation directly

          Yes, they attacked for a long time, only by other methods. But the guarantee of survival is the same industry and agriculture.
      2. zenion
        zenion 21 December 2020 21: 16
        0
        If nothing was being ruined, then ... So the nuclear weapons of the USSR, which made it impossible to make Moscow principality out of Russia, fell into Russia from the sky from those flying on saucers? And before Russia, the Soviet army was one of the foremost. In the days of the USSR, the people knew what needed to be protected. Now this fata morgana is a big question. As they joked in Ukraine, the war would be faster and surrender, but the USSR was still there at that time. And instead of drying the Tagged One, all the republics of the USSR were hung up.
      3. Snusmumrik
        Snusmumrik 22 December 2020 22: 01
        +1
        It's great that Putin did not need so many sacrifices for this. Looks like something is changing over time.
  • BAI
    BAI 21 December 2020 10: 18
    +1
    Why is Russia used instead of the USSR when talking about the events of 1941-1945?

    Or maybe the author is from the West, or is he guided by Western values? For the West, USSR = Russia, Soviet = Russian. No one was singled out there. Indeed, even in our time, when an Uzbek Jew gave a bribe to a French judge, Russian skaters suffered.
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 21 December 2020 05: 22
    +1
    The stake was placed on the inefficiency, weakness and inability of the Soviet leadership, which would simply be paralyzed by the war.
    What worked in cap.Europe did not work in Soviet Russia, primarily because it was Soviet, and secondly because Russia!
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 21 December 2020 07: 09
      +9
      Quote: Vladimir_2U
      The stake was placed on the inefficiency, weakness and inability of the Soviet leadership, which would simply be paralyzed by the war.
      What worked in cap.Europe did not work in Soviet Russia, primarily because it was Soviet, and secondly because Russia!

      Vladimir, or maybe the other way around, because first of all Russia, and secondly - Soviet?
      Although I personally would not put parities between these terms. For me in the period from 1941 to 1945 they are equivalent.
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 21 December 2020 07: 13
        +2
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        Vladimir, or maybe the other way around, because first of all Russia, and secondly - Soviet?
        I'm afraid to imagine what would have happened if Russia had remained tsarist to WWII.
        1. Sergey Valov
          Sergey Valov 21 December 2020 07: 55
          -2
          “I’m afraid to imagine what would have happened if Russia had remained tsarist to WWII” - then RI would have entered the war in 1939, this is if, after WWII, Poland would have gained independence, and Germany would have been defeated in the same year.
          1. strannik1985
            strannik1985 21 December 2020 08: 00
            +2
            and Germany would have been defeated in the same year

            "Allies" sit behind the Maginot Line and wait for the weather by the sea, RI is at war with Germany one on one.
            1. Sergey Valov
              Sergey Valov 21 December 2020 08: 16
              0
              Why did you decide that the Allies would sit behind the Maginot Line?
              1. strannik1985
                strannik1985 21 December 2020 09: 41
                +6
                Because they did it while the Germans were crushing Poland.
                1. Sergey Valov
                  Sergey Valov 21 December 2020 15: 33
                  -3
                  This is the only argument ??? And this is serious ??? Good buy.
                  1. strannik1985
                    strannik1985 21 December 2020 16: 45
                    +2
                    Underestimation of the Germans by the French and the British - a frivolous argument? good
            2. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 21 December 2020 15: 44
              +1
              Quote: strannik1985
              RI is fighting Germany one-on-one.

              Well, if one on one. And not alone against Germany, Poland, Finland, Romania ...
              1. Sergey Valov
                Sergey Valov 21 December 2020 18: 11
                0
                Read carefully - we are not talking about the USSR, but about the Republic of Ingushetia, and then Poland is either part of the Republic of Ingushetia or an ally, Finland is part of the Republic of Ingushetia, Romania is most likely an ally.
                1. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 21 December 2020 18: 15
                  0
                  The condition was: Poland after WWI gains independence. Finland, for sure, too - it was going to be. And she, like Romania, is more opponents than allies. They all did to be "great". At the expense of the neighbor.
                  1. Sergey Valov
                    Sergey Valov 21 December 2020 18: 31
                    +1
                    "The condition was" - a quote, please. stop
                    But in fact, the condition was - "Stay Tsarist Russia to WWII"
                    1. Sugar Honeyovich
                      Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 10: 43
                      0
                      "... RI would have entered the war in 1939, this is if, after WWI, Poland would have gained independence."
                      1. Sergey Valov
                        Sergey Valov 22 December 2020 11: 33
                        0
                        This is not a condition, it is a consequence.
                      2. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 14: 06
                        -1
                        And what is the consequence of what? sad
        2. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 21 December 2020 08: 04
          +6
          Quote: Sergey Valov
          Germany would have been defeated in the same year

          Roughly the same as RI smashed Germany before 1918? With England and France at war with Germany fully and with all the tension? What a blessing that they threw the king-father to hell with his attendants.
          1. Sergey Valov
            Sergey Valov 21 December 2020 08: 18
            +3
            Germany in 1939 was completely unprepared for a world war, in contrast to 1914.
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 21 December 2020 10: 08
              -2
              And for Germany, until 43, it was practically nonexistent, neither on the ground, nor in the air.
              1. Sergey Valov
                Sergey Valov 21 December 2020 15: 37
                0
                Even wondering how old are you? This is where such knowledge comes from? Or is it not knowledge, but confidence?
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 21 December 2020 16: 01
                  -2
                  Quote: Sergey Valov
                  Even wondering how old are you? This is where such knowledge comes from?
                  Enough, even overkill, for my taste. From there, from open sources.
                  Quote: Sergey Valov
                  then RI would have entered the war in 1939, this is if, after WWI, Poland would gain independence, and Germany would be in defeated the same year
                  Those. is THIS a sign of great knowledge and maturity in your opinion?
                  1. Sergey Valov
                    Sergey Valov 21 December 2020 16: 29
                    0
                    A small educational program.
                    Option 1. Poland after WWI does not gain independence. The question is who and why is Germany attacking in 1939? Immediately I give an introduction - RI definitely does not allow dismemberment of Czechoslovakia, the problem of the Danzig corridor by definition does not exist, there is no antagonism between France, England and RI created by the Bolsheviks, Russia, which did not fly into the Civil War with its deindustrialization, has a much better industry developed than the USSR in 1939 ., etc.
                    Option 2. RI gives Poland independence. There is most likely no antagonism between Poland and Ingushetia, these are allies, for they dispersed peacefully. Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are part of the Republic of Ingushetia. Further, as in the first option. The question is - will Germany take the risk of attacking Poland, which has behind it a powerful allied RI plus France in the west? In Germany, they remember very well how a similar experiment ended 25 years ago.
                    1. strannik1985
                      strannik1985 21 December 2020 16: 57
                      0
                      A small educational program.

                      The so-called "allies" could rein in Germany at the stage of refusal to pay reparations, the transition to a conscript army, the introduction of troops into the Rhineland, the occupation of Austria and Czechoslovakia. Do you seriously think they are crazy or have lost their memory?
                    2. Sergey Valov
                      Sergey Valov 21 December 2020 18: 05
                      +1
                      I seriously think they went crazy for doing all of the above.
                    3. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 23: 21
                      +1
                      Quote: Sergey Valov
                      I think they went crazy for all of the above.

                      No, why not. Versailles' conditions were insane and criminal, impossible to defend even domestically. Well, if it's not France.
                    4. Sergey Valov
                      Sergey Valov 22 December 2020 00: 20
                      +1
                      Versailles' terms were neither criminal nor insane. They were unreasonable. But having said A, it was necessary to say B - in no case could the Anschluss, the creation of the Wehrmacht, the partition of Czechoslovakia, etc. be allowed.
                    5. Cherry Nine
                      Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 01: 49
                      0
                      Quote: Sergey Valov
                      not criminal and not insane

                      Yes?
                      Quote: Sergey Valov
                      and in no case could the Anschluss, the creation of the Wehrmacht, the partition of Czechoslovakia, etc. be allowed.

                      And for what reason, in fact?
            2. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 21 December 2020 18: 38
              -1
              Quote: Sergey Valov
              Option 1
              Option one is not considered, the nationalist separatist movements appeared long before 1917, and not at the instigation of the Bolsheviks. There may be no antagonism with France, but England is even united, and not that a strong Russia is not needed (it's a shame not to understand such things).
              Option 2. Independent bourgeois Poland - Russophobic Poland and Russia cannot be an ally, it’s a shame not to understand this (see recent history) forcedly dispersed among the garrisons in order to crush anti-government protests (the inability to change the pre-war Romanovs is well known). Pumped up by American loans and revanchism, Germany, possibly without Nazi ideology, creates an anti-Russian alliance with Poland by promising her the Russian Baltic states and remembering the weakness of the Republic of Ingushetia in the confrontation with the German army, invades the Russian Empire through Poland. The pathological hostility of the Russian nobility to the general education of the "rabble" does not allow for the past years to carry out mass industrialization, and the servility of the upper classes before the Anglo-French culture does not allow patriotic engineers and the military not only to massively rearm and train the army with advanced models of equipment and weapons, but simply to supply these samples for service. France sits behind the Maginot Line, England rubs her hands. The curtain.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 10: 26
    +4
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Roughly the same as RI smashed Germany before 1918?

    Yes, something like that, apparently. Less than 2 million losses, in 3 years, the front was shifted to the East only in Poland. Is there something that doesn't suit you?
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 21 December 2020 10: 33
      -2
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      Less than 2 million losses, in 3 years, the front was shifted to the East only in Poland. Something does not suit you
      It is somehow unlike the defeat of Germany in the same year.
      I am not satisfied with the fact that I do not see in the comments what forces Germany had on the Western Front. Compared to 1941
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 21 December 2020 08: 17
    -12%
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    Vladimir, or maybe the other way around, because first of all Russia, and secondly - Soviet?
    I'm afraid to imagine what would have happened if Russia had remained tsarist to WWII.

    To imagine, you just need to know a little about new and recent history:

    Russia is the largest country in the world with the fastest growing energetic strong Russian people, rapidly populating the Caucasus, Wed. Asia, the Far East, Altai, etc. It's just a fact

    Under the next power, Russia is the borders of the 17th century, minus 5 million km2 of territory and a dying out, rapidly aging, drinking people and the depopulated heart of Russia-Non-Black Earth Region. It's just a FACT
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 21 December 2020 08: 21
      +2
      Let Biden tell the wretched tales about RI Ol'gych.
    2. VS
      VS 21 December 2020 13: 50
      +2
      "" Russia is the largest country in the world with the fastest growing energetic strong Russian people rapidly populating the Caucasus, Wed. Asia, the Far East, Altai, etc. It's just a fact

      Under the next power, Russia is the borders of the 17th century, minus 5 million km2 of territory and a dying out, rapidly aging people who are getting drunk and the depopulated heart of Russia-Non-Black Earth Region. It's just a FACT "

      Are you talking about Putin's RFii right now?)))
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 21 December 2020 16: 46
        -1
        Quote: V.S.
        Are you talking about Putin's RFii right now?)))

        Nope, this is about the Russian Federation: with her, these boundaries were established in 1917-1940 and with her the Russians became To die out.
        1. strannik1985
          strannik1985 21 December 2020 18: 20
          -1
          You would ask why they gave birth to up to 17 children in peasant families.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 21 December 2020 22: 25
            0
            Quote: strannik1985
            You would ask why they gave birth to up to 17 children in peasant families.

            You would inquire about the living conditions of tens of millions of peasants who were forced to flee to cities in the rsfsr in the 1930s, 40s, who slept in basements, attics, dugouts and corridors (barracks for happiness), where forget about children, and the level lived construction until 1938 was at the level of the 1918 war year.

            The number of abortions in, for example, Moscow for 10 years from 1925 to 1935 increased TWENTY times! For one birth - THREE abortions,

            6-8 abortions became the norm for a city woman aged 30 to 35

            From a "happy" cultural life, yes ....
            1. strannik1985
              strannik1985 22 December 2020 10: 23
              -2
              From a "happy" cultural life, yes ...

              Probably fled from a better life, right?
              And the most interesting thing is that the standard of living has increased over time - but the birth rate has not, why? wink
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 22 December 2020 10: 47
                +2
                Quote: strannik1985
                Probably fled from a better life, right?

                They fled from the ADA arranged in the village by the authorities.
                Quote: strannik1985
                And the most interesting thing is that the standard of living has increased over time - but the birth rate has not, why?

                Has it improved when instead of a 9-meter communal apartment there was a 12-meter one?
                Is it the same with apartments?
                And then only few people began to give birth: the aging of the population proceeded at a wild pace. Russia has been dying out since 1964.
                1. strannik1985
                  strannik1985 22 December 2020 13: 03
                  -3
                  Ran

                  How many moved in the 30s? In the area of ​​10-12 million people? Why didn't the others rebel?
                  Has improved

                  Comparing a communal apartment and a hut with an earthen floor? Without the prospect of getting an education (except for primary education), employment, medical assistance - of course yes, life in the countryside until 1917 is "better". It is this, and not the desire to have more workers (boys) in the family in order to get more plots of land during the next redistribution - the reason for the increased birth rate wink
                2. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 22 December 2020 22: 44
                  +2
                  Quote: strannik1985
                  How many moved in the 30s? In the area of ​​10-12 million people? Why didn't the others rebel?

                  They rebelled, even with weapons. Especially WOMEN performed. Thousands of performances in 1930 alone. They were destroyed, imprisoned, blackmailed, starved, tortured ..

                  Open the site Istmat section Soviet village through the eyes of the Cheka-OGPU-NKVD. 1918-1939 and the tragedy of the village and discover the world of truth
                  Quote: strannik1985
                  Without the prospect of obtaining an education (except for primary

                  nonsense
                  Quote: strannik1985
                  employment

                  nonsense
                  Quote: strannik1985
                  medical care

                  in 1933 a peaceful year, life expectancy is almost half that of the tsarist-17 years
                  Quote: strannik1985
                  It is this, and not the desire to have more workers (boys) in the family in order to get more plots of land in the next redistribution - the reason for the increased birth rate

                  There are many reasons. The fact is that it was the RUSSIANS who drove and drove and settled the Caucasus, Asia, etc., etc.

                  With yours, everything is the opposite, and the indigenous Russia-DIE-OUT.
          2. Sugar Honeyovich
            Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 14: 33
            -2
            And if you ask about the living conditions of the peasants who were forced to flee to the cities in the 1860-1910s. ?
            “Every factory has work huts, which consist of a kitchen and an attic. This latter also serves as a room for workers. On both sides of it there are bunks, or there are simply planks on the floor that replace bunks, covered with dirty matting with some clothes in their heads. The floors in the working rooms are so unclean that they are covered with a layer of mud for several inches. ... Living in such mud, workers spread such a huge number of fleas, bugs and lice that, despite great fatigue, sometimes after 15-17 hours of work, can fall asleep for a long time ... Not a single brick factory has a cesspool, slop is poured out near workers' dwellings, all kinds of sewage immediately dumped, workers immediately wash themselves ... "
            “On the Petersburg highway, apartments for workers are arranged in this way. Some woman rents an apartment from the owner, sets up plank beds around the walls, as many will fit, and invites tenants to her place, taking 5 kopecks from each of them. per day, or 1 rub. 50 kopecks per month. For this the worker uses half the bed, water and free laundry. "
            “The basement of house No. 154 is especially terrible: being a deepening into the ground of at least 2 arshins, it is constantly flooded, if not with water, then with liquid from a nearby latrine, so that the rotten boards that make up the floor literally float, despite the fact that his tenants are diligently engaged in drying their apartment, daily scooping out several buckets. In such a room, with a content of 5,33 cubic meters. I found up to 10 tenants, of whom 6 were minors ...

            ... the skins in this factory are soaked in open vats filled with semi-rotten urine. The urine is delivered, of course, by the workers themselves, for which there are special vats in the room in several corners, which are not covered by anything. In small tanneries, people SLEEP AND EAT (-SM) in the same fetid workshops, where the air is no better than in a bad anatomical theater ... "
            … “Work at the plant lasts 12 hours a day, they do not have holidays and work 30 days a month. The air temperature is terribly high in almost the entire plant. They work naked, only cover their heads with a paper cap and wear a short apron around their waist. In some departments, for example, in cells where carts loaded with metal molds filled with sugar have to be rolled in, the temperature reaches 70 degrees.
            Work goes on day and night, each has to work 2 shifts a day, after 6 hours taking a break, so that in the end the worker can never get enough sleep. At the factory, the workers are housed in a huge, damp building, divided, like a giant menagerie, into cages or closets, filthy, stinking, soaked in the stench of latrines. The tenants are stuffed in these closets like herring in a barrel. The Zemsky Commission cites the following facts: a closet of 13 cubic meters. sazhen serves as a room during work for 17 people, and on holidays or when cleaning cars - for 35–40 people ...

            Presumably, these conditions greatly facilitated childbirth? At least in order to have someone to help the aunts and mothers: “In a fermentation plant, where children from 7 years of age work most of all, a healthy, but unaccustomed person in a quarter of an hour will have a headache to fainting from the unbearable stench and dampness emitted by the fermented coal ... In the chiropractor, children from 7 years old (who also work 12 hours) walk and spread hot crumbs, from which dust literally covers them from head to toe ... In the laundry room - girls from 14 years old, completely naked, wash dirty napkins from beet juice in strongly lime water, from which the skin on their bodies bursts ...
      2. VS
        VS 23 December 2020 09: 02
        -3
        Quote: Olgovich
        Quote: V.S.
        Under the next power, Russia is the borders of the 17th century, minus 5 million km2 of territory and a dying out, rapidly aging people who are getting drunk and the depopulated heart of Russia-Non-Black Earth Region. It's just a FACT "

        are you talking about Putin's RFii right now?


        Nope, about the Soviet rsfsria: borders were established under it 17th century from 1917 to 1940 and with her the Russians became To die out

        can STATISTICS confirm the nonsense that in the USSR the Russians died out? (((
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 23 December 2020 09: 57
          +3
          Quote: V.S.
          can STATISTICS confirm the nonsense that in the USSR the Russians died out? (((

          Perevedentsev, Denisova, Beznin, Danilov and others - read the monographs.

          You can not?

          Simpler: "Opportunities for increasing fertility are limited - Demoscope

          There you will learn that NOT ONE generation under the Bolsheviks reproduced itself.

          Since 1964-DEPopulation
    3. Olgovich
      Olgovich 21 December 2020 16: 47
      -3
      Quote: V.S.
      Under the next power, Russia is the borders of the 17th century, minus 5 million km2 of territory and a dying out, rapidly aging people who are getting drunk and the depopulated heart of Russia-Non-Black Earth Region. It's just a FACT "

      are you talking about Putin's RFii right now?


      Nope, about the Soviet rsfsria: borders were established under it 17th century from 1917 to 1940 and with her the Russians became To die out
  • Doccor18
    Doccor18 21 December 2020 10: 04
    +5
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    Vladimir, or maybe the other way around, because first of all Russia, and secondly - Soviet?
    I'm afraid to imagine what would have happened if Russia had remained tsarist to WWII.

    Nothing would have happened. Neither you nor me ...
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 10: 22
    +3
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    I'm afraid to imagine what would have happened if Russia had remained tsarist to WWII.

    There are extensive discussions on this topic.

    Apparently, 3 years of relatively successful hostilities, a stable front line Riga - Pinsk - Lvov - Romania, very moderate losses, and then a Bolshevik uprising, capitulation and civil war, with losses five times higher than in WWI.

    On the other hand, supporters of the RCMP write that the Wehrmacht, against the background of the Reichswehr, are tattered cats, so against the conditional Finland of 300 million people, their chances of seriously misbehaving would be zero, just zero.
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 21 December 2020 10: 35
      -1
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      then the uprising of the Bolsheviks

      The level of your knowledge is off the charts.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 10: 47
        +5
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        The level of your knowledge is off the charts.

        You flatter me. Not my period, but something, of course, caught my eye.
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        It is somehow unlike the defeat of Germany in the same year.

        There is still a year before the defeat of Germany, but what? In the summer of the 44th, the front seemed to be slightly east, no? We are not yet saying which city to the east he reached the first time, to which - the second.
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        I am not satisfied with the fact that I do not see in the comments what forces Germany had on the Western Front. Compared to 1941

        Well, in the 41st, Glory to the Great Stalin, there was no special need for forces on the Western Front, but in the 44th in the West (North Sea - France - Italy - Balkans) there were about 3 million people, as in WWI. What is the question?
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 21 December 2020 11: 34
          +3
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          You flatter me. Not my period, but something, of course, caught my eye.
          To clarify: this is such sarcasm.
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          It is somehow unlike the defeat of Germany in the same year.
          There is another year before the defeat of Germany, but what? In the summer of the 44th
          Yes, so, the question is in 39 year was the victorious procession of RI.
          Sergey Valov (Sergey Valov) Today, 07:55
          "I'm afraid to imagine what would have happened if Russia had remained tsarist to WWII" - then RI would have entered the war in 1939, this is if, after WWII, Poland would have gained independence, and Germany would have been in defeated the same year.


          Quote: Cherry Nine
          Well, in 41st, Glory to the Great Stalin, there was no special need for forces on the Western Front
          That is, the combat-ready forces of Germany were thrown against the USSR, it turns out like this. And you write as if Stalin was to blame for the shameful drain of the Anglo-French.
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          but in the 44th in the West (North Sea - France - Italy - Balkans) there are about 3 million people, as in WWI. What's the point
          And why such an answer, about 44 years old? After all, we mention 41 (the beginning of the Second World War) and it is logical to compare it with the entry of the Republic of Ingushetia into WWI in 1914. So, against the Republic of Ingushetia in 1914, German troops were deployed only 200 people. and the offensive was also launched by Russian troops. And throughout the First World War on the Western Front, Germany kept troops at least 000 or more times than on the Eastern Front against Russia.
          So RI butted mainly against Austria-Hungary and butted so-so judging by the map. And if Germany had thrown ALL forces on Ingushetia, as in 1941, nothing would have remained of tsarist Russia.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 11: 43
            +2
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            Yes, so, the question is in 39 year was the victorious procession of RI.

            This is, for example, an exaggeration.
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            And you write as if Stalin was to blame for the shameful drain of the Anglo-French.

            "The shameful drain of the Anglo-French" cost them two million people. How much this shameful drain cost a great friend of the Soviet people, Comrade Stalin?
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            And if Germany had thrown ALL forces on Ingushetia, as in 1941, nothing would have remained of tsarist Russia.

            It may well be. On the other hand. RI did not have a comrade. Stalin and his wise foreign policy, therefore
            Quote: Vladimir_2U
            So, against RI in 1914 the German troops were deployed only 200 people. and the offensive was also launched by Russian troops. And throughout the First World War on the Western Front, Germany kept troops at least 000 or more times than on the Eastern Front against Russia.
            1. Vladimir_2U
              Vladimir_2U 21 December 2020 11: 49
              -1
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              How much this shameful drain cost the great friend of the Soviet people, Comrade Stalin?
              So all the same, Stalin is to blame for the drain of Anglo-Franks, but you are a logician.
              Quote: Cherry Nine
              RI did not have a comrade. Stalin and his wise foreign policy, therefore
              Quote: Vladimir_2U
              So, against RI in 1914, the German troops were deployed only 200 people

              In fact, RI SAMA joined WWI, and as a result of the "brilliant" foreign policy fell apart to hell, and the ingenious Tsarbatyushka Nika 2 was generally leaning against the wall with the whole family. A wonderful policy, even brilliant.
              1. Jünger
                Jünger 21 December 2020 12: 08
                +2
                Quote: Vladimir_2U
                Actually, RI SAMA joined WWI

                In fact, RI entered the war, because Germany declared this war on it, and by no means itself. And the king did everything to avoid this war.
                1. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 21 December 2020 16: 16
                  -2
                  Quote: Junger
                  And the king did everything to avoid this war.
                  And why then did Germany declare war on RI? Little tsarbatyushka tried. In addition to mobilization, it was necessary to invade Germany in the name of peacefulness.
                2. Jünger
                  Jünger 21 December 2020 16: 23
                  +1
                  For the same reason why Germany declared war on France and violated Belgium's neutrality. Everyone wanted to offend her.
                  But the tsar priest should have immediately surrendered all the allies and invited the occupation authorities. Then the leftists would be glad.
                3. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 21 December 2020 17: 59
                  -2
                  Quote: Junger
                  And the tsar priest should have immediately surrendered all the allies and invited the occupation authorities
                  It's just that abysses open up when you look for a nonexistent agreement on military cooperation between Serbia and Ingushetia by 1914.
                  a brilliant operation by Sergei Sazonov, one of the most prominent (if not the most outstanding) diplomats of the XNUMXth century. Who managed to form the Entente (yes, the father of the Entente is precisely the Russian diplomat), and competently unleash a war in Europe, and draw Germany into it, and Turkey - on the side of Germany.
                  https://proza.ru/2020/01/22/1125
                  And what has the contract to do with it? And despite the fact that Serbia was neither formally nor in fact an ally of the Republic of Ingushetia before WWI, but it acted as a reason for 5 points.
                4. Jünger
                  Jünger 21 December 2020 21: 23
                  +2
                  So you leftists and your own mother need a contract to feed her. You have only a bare-assed Cuban and Egyptian proletariat in brothers, for which you have ripped off your own people for 70 years. And also without contracts, think ..
                5. Vladimir_2U
                  Vladimir_2U 22 December 2020 08: 47
                  -2
                  Quote: Junger
                  You only have a naked Cuban and Egyptian proletariat in little brothers
                  Those. The Serbs were such a cash cow, a salted hen, and the base, the easiest example to understand, is so, ugh, why nobody needs it in Cuba and Egypt? Yes, you are completely wrong.
      2. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 12: 32
        +4
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        So all the same, Stalin is to blame for the drain of Anglo-Franks, but you are a logician.

        No, it's not my fault, of course. Just now after plum of the Anglo-French, the affairs of the USSR did not go very well, as you rightly noted.
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        Actually, RI SAMA joined WWI,

        Let's say it was so.
        Quote: Vladimir_2U
        as a result of the "brilliant" foreign policy fell apart to hell,

        Here you are right, all solutions have their pros and cons.
        1. strannik1985
          strannik1985 21 December 2020 18: 23
          0
          No, not to blame, of course

          How did you decide that the "allies" are friends and the USSR will not get the "Unthinkable" year in 1943-1944, in much worse conditions?
        2. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 23: 19
          +4
          Quote: strannik1985
          How did you decide that the "allies" are friends

          The USSR had no friends.
          Quote: strannik1985
          will not receive the "Unthinkable" in 1943-1944, in much worse conditions?

          The "unthinkable" is Churchill's ideas about liberating Poland from the communists, no? And how, freed?
        3. strannik1985
          strannik1985 22 December 2020 10: 27
          -2
          "Unthinkable"

          Yeah, that's just the Americans don't need a new war in Europe, they just started skimming the cream off the victory. Now we are replacing the Americans with 100 ~ 140 French divisions ...
        4. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 11: 19
          +2
          Quote: strannik1985
          Now we are replacing the Americans with 100 ~ 140 French divisions ...

          For the French, perhaps, too, honey was smeared with drag nach osten through Germany and Poland to the Volga? These are almost the main friends of the Soviet regime in Europe, that's it. They almost built socialism at home, it was lucky that the Americans changed their minds in time and took all the good people from Europe Rostov-na-Donu Evpatoria.
        5. strannik1985
          strannik1985 22 December 2020 12: 49
          0
          [Quote] [/ quote]
        6. strannik1985
          strannik1985 22 December 2020 13: 05
          -1
          For the French, too

          Having Germans in the form of cannon fodder? Why not? And what for them Russians in Europe (the same Poland went under the French)?
        7. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 13: 09
          +2
          What other German cannon fodder? Do you think that the Germans and the French will immediately make friends back in 39, or what? Somehow you delved too far into the alternative of Samsonov, it seems.
        8. strannik1985
          strannik1985 22 December 2020 13: 33
          -2
          I have an alternative from Churchill wink
          His idea is to use German troops in the event of a new conflict in Europe.
          Suppose the USSR started the war in 1939 or in 1940 (until May) - what prevents the "allies" from sitting for 2-3 years behind the Maginot Line while the USSR and Germany are kneading each other, hitting the Germans, and then the Russians?
        9. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 13: 39
          +3
          Quote: strannik1985
          I have an alternative from Churchill

          Not Churchill, but Brook. That said, Brook wrote this nonsense exclusively for trolling. Like all the rest of the nonsense in the first (offensive) "Unthinkable".
          Quote: strannik1985
          what prevents the "allies" from sitting for 2-3 years behind the Maginot Line while the USSR and Germany knead each other, hitting the Germans, and then the Russians?

          And what prevented you from doing the same in 45? By the way, de Gaulle has about 100 divisions.
        10. strannik1985
          strannik1985 22 December 2020 15: 28
          -1
          Not Churchill, but Brook

          And a visible confirmation of the "joke" was the army group "Nord", as well as other formations and units of German troops that existed in the British zone of occupation wink
          What prevented

          100 divisions - this is if you collect everything, everyone, including the "Resistance", the Vichy army, etc. and divide into calculated formations, and de Gaulle himself had 13 divisions, of which 9 (1st French army, 6 infantry and 3 armored divisions) fought in northwestern Europe.
        11. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 15: 43
          +2
          Quote: strannik1985
          And a visible confirmation of the "joke" was the army group "Nord", as well as other formations and units of the German troops

          And what do you forgive them, do these connections? Drown yourself, or what, in the sea? They do not interfere with anyone, they ask for food, but in moderation, at least they do not require protection.
          Quote: strannik1985
          and directly de Gaulle had 13 divisions, of which 9 (1st French army, 6 infantry and 3 tank divisions) fought in northwestern Europe.

          This is in 44th. In 45, he had 1,3 million snouts in the Free French forces. There are, however, only 40 divisions, I gave up too much, the rest is the train and supply tanks.
        12. strannik1985
          strannik1985 22 December 2020 16: 20
          -1
          And what forgive them to do

          Disband and transfer to prisoners of war, as they decided at the Berlin Conference wink
          This is in 44th.

          This is everywhere, including North Africa and Indochina, in Europe they have 9-10 divisions by May 1945.
        13. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 17: 06
          +3
          And the rest of the million in Africa and Indochina? Oh well.
          Quote: strannik1985
          Disband and transfer to prisoners of war, as they decided at the Berlin Conference

          Is this about Stalin's November freaks at the Control Council? Ordinary trolling, comrade Stalin basically understood diplomacy this way. It is ridiculous to discuss that the British, in the company of the unfinished Nazis, will attack the USSR, while the Americans have already screwed up from Europe. As for the actions of the British in their zone of occupation, this is not Comrade Stalin's business. I am compelled to note that of all the invaders, the British behaved themselves most decently.
        14. strannik1985
          strannik1985 22 December 2020 18: 42
          -1
          And the rest of the million in Africa and Indochina?

          Easy, a number of divisions, including one tank division, were disbanded due to the low combat readiness of the personnel, if they were not demobilized, then they were listed in the army, but they are not suitable for a serious war. And most importantly, de Gaulle was a successful military leader in 1945, no more than half of the country was in ruins, we must take power into our own hands - what kind of war with the Soviets, what are you talking about?
          It's you November freaks

          What are the freaks? Montgomery recognized the validity of the claims, and the British officially disbanded the German units by January 1946.
        15. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 20: 30
          +2
          Quote: strannik1985
          Easy, a number of divisions, including one tank division, were disbanded due to the low combat readiness of the personnel, if they were not demobilized, then they were listed in the army, but they are not suitable for a serious war.

          This is already thinking about who was fit for what or not. The forces of the Northern Fleet in Overlord are rather modest, but the 1st Army at the time of Dragoon was about 250 thousand people, 12 divisions. After the additional conscription directly in France in the middle of the 45th the forces of the SF amounted to 1,3 million people, of course, with growth at the expense of the metropolis, and not the colonies.
          Quote: strannik1985
          de Gaulle in 1945, a successful military leader, no more,

          Fuck. And who is the great geopolitician there? Which of the heads of 17 French cabinets from 32 to 40? The very topic is to fight with the USSR through Germany, when it is rare for a government to sit for more than a year.
          Quote: strannik1985
          we need to take power into our own hands

          For 13 years de Gaulle was not in power. And there were problems with the communists long before 45.
          Quote: strannik1985
          What are the freaks? Montgomery acknowledged the validity of the claims

          Out of inappropriate politeness. However, with Attlee as prime minister, it is difficult to expect reasonable behavior.
  • Jünger
    Jünger 21 December 2020 12: 13
    -9
    Quote: Vladimir_2U
    And if Germany had thrown ALL forces on Ingushetia, as in 1941, nothing would have remained of tsarist Russia.

    In order not to have any "would" tsarist diplomacy for decades built a chain of alliances of great powers, ensuring the security of the empire without crippling the people of industrialization and collectivization.
    And Germany in 1941 threw all its forces on the USSR only because the USSR was ruled by idiots who made the country a scarecrow for the whole world.
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 21 December 2020 16: 05
      +1
      Quote: Junger
      For decades, tsarist diplomacy has been building a chain of alliances of the great powers, ensuring the security of the empire without crippling the people of industrialization and collectivization.
      We see an excellent result of this "tsarist diplomacy" - a tsarist result. By the way, where is the king?
      1. Jünger
        Jünger 21 December 2020 16: 11
        -2
        The king is there where his internal politics led him. And we are generally talking about the external.
        Where is the Generalissimo? Companions hunted down.
        1. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 21 December 2020 16: 21
          +2
          Quote: Junger
          The king is there where his internal politics led him. And we are generally talking about the external.
          Those. foreign policy of the country you have on another planet, in contrast to the internal, fig yourself you are a master of politics.
          Quote: Junger
          Where is the Generalissimo? Trampled companions

          Even if he was "trashed", it happened 8 years after the Victory. The result is much better than that of Niki-2.
        2. Jünger
          Jünger 21 December 2020 16: 28
          -2
          So Nicky had no problems with the war when he was thrown off. The war was blown by the same future generalissimo with his sidekicks. So that result is also the result of the Leninists-Stalinists.
        3. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 21 December 2020 17: 48
          -1
          Quote: Junger
          The war was blown by the same future generalissimo with homies
          That knowledge of history, that logic is not something that limp, without legs you have.
        4. Jünger
          Jünger 21 December 2020 21: 16
          -2
          What is lameness then? Didn't the Bolsheviks declare "neither peace nor war" and signed the Lithuanian Peace Treaty of Brest?
          Was the army incapable of combat by that time? Since it should be combat-ready, if the Bolsheviks themselves corrupted it, working off German money.
          So the generalissimo blew with a friend of the PMV label. And then he "distinguished himself" in WWII.
        5. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 22 December 2020 08: 50
          -2
          About the order "Number 1" not in the know at all? Although what I mean ...
        6. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 10: 51
          -3
          Quote: Junger
          Since it should be combat-ready, if the Bolsheviks themselves corrupted it, working off German money.

          And contemporaries said that the Bolsheviks were not at all to blame for the collapse of the army. And in general, they are a consequence of the collapse, not a cause.
        7. Jünger
          Jünger 22 December 2020 11: 01
          +3
          Quote: Sahar Medovich
          And contemporaries said

          They lie just like you when you tell a story about a conversation between American soldiers and a Soviet girl.
          Well this is obvious.
        8. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 11: 16
          -2
          And they say that you are lying. laughing laughing laughing ... There are many, you are one. So they are true! tongue
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 10: 49
    -2
    Quote: Junger
    So Nicky had no problems with the war when he was thrown off.

    And they threw him off due to the absence of problems with the war or some other? lol
  • Jünger
    Jünger 22 December 2020 10: 55
    +2
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    And they threw him off due to the absence of problems with the war or some other?

    He lost power for the same reason as the rulers of Germany, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire. The monarchy has lost its sacred meaning in the eyes of the peoples, due to the cooling of these very peoples to religion.
    Everyone wanted to hang out beautifully under beautiful slogans. For which they answered in the near future.
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 11: 13
    -2
    Quote: Junger
    The monarchy has lost its sacred meaning in the eyes of the peoples, due to the cooling of these very peoples to religion.

    For this reason alone? In Great Britain, Belgium, Japan, for some reason, the monarchs did not lose power. Although there is no need to talk about the sacred meaning there (except for Japan). stop
  • Jünger
    Jünger 22 December 2020 11: 19
    +3
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    For this reason alone?

    Only.
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    In the UK, Belgium

    I'm talking about real monarchies, where the monarch means something, and not about cardboard fools.
    In Japan, the people are special, still archaic. Late came out of feudalism. It should take some time to be carried out on foreign injections into the ears. Maybe a century.
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 14: 04
    -2
    That is, those monarchs who meant something lost their crown? Interesting! And the fact that the monarchies fell in those countries that lost the war does not matter?
  • Jünger
    Jünger 22 December 2020 14: 24
    +2
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    That is, those monarchs who meant something lost their crown?

    You are amazingly quick-witted, proletarian friend laughing
    Do you smell a conspiracy here? I am.
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    And the fact that the monarchies fell in those countries that lost the war does not matter?

    Absolutely none. Because Russia did not lose the war under the monarchy. It's very simple - all the conservative monarchies of the Old World that were close to the absolutist fell.
    Coincidence? I don’t think so ...
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 14: 47
    -2
    Quote: Junger
    Do you smell a conspiracy here? I am.

    But not me.
    Quote: Junger
    Russia did not lose the war under the monarchy

    Yes. But there is information that Nicholas II lost power, because his subjects considered that he had practically lost the war ...
    But, for example, the Chinese - what kind of people are they compared to the Japanese? Not so archaic? How are they with foreign infusion in the ears?
  • Jünger
    Jünger 22 December 2020 14: 53
    +2
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    But there is information that

    Information from the same people who told about the conversation between the Americans and the Soviet girl? Empty.
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    But, for example, the Chinese - what kind of people are they compared to the Japanese? Not so archaic? How are they with foreign infusion in the ears?

    And the devil knows them to be honest. They are all muddy there.
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 15: 48
    -2
    Quote: Junger
    Information from the same people who told about the conversation between the Americans and the Soviet girl?

    No, why. From those who say that the monarchy has lost its sacred meaning. And in China, the monarchy fell earlier than in all of the above countries. In peacetime. Why do you think?
  • Jünger
    Jünger 22 December 2020 15: 55
    +2
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    Why do you think?

    I'm not afraid to answer that I don't know. Since he is not well-versed in the background of the monarchy in this country. China is a very strange power in religious terms and I do not understand the deep foundations of the monarchy there.
    Japan is clearer here. Moreover, Europe.
    I repeat once again, for me the Chinese are a very muddy nation and I am not a Sinologist. I don't know much about Koreans either, and I can't say anything about them either.
  • Marine engineer
    Marine engineer 21 December 2020 16: 35
    +3
    "Where is the Generalissimo?"

    In the memory of people.
    Today is his birthday (official). In the evening I will "pump up" for the Generalissimo.
  • Jünger
    Jünger 21 December 2020 21: 18
    +1
    And for the Kaiser, roll at the same time on whose money the Generalissimo and accomplices destroyed the Russian army and gave Russian lands.
  • strannik1985
    strannik1985 21 December 2020 18: 33
    0
    In order not to have any "would" tsarist diplomacy

    Those. to stand up for the terrorists involved in the murder of the heir to a neighboring country - is this a success of tsarist diplomacy?
    And Germany in 1941

    The initiators of the signing of the treaty in 1892 were the French, the initiators of the breakdown of the Moscow negotiations in the summer of 1939 were the French and the British.
  • Konstantin Shevchenko
    Konstantin Shevchenko 21 December 2020 17: 49
    +2
    To begin with, Russia would have participated in Germany's surrender after WWI. And this dramatically changes the course of events, what Russia would demand is not known. And since the events did not come, it makes no sense to consider.
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 21 December 2020 07: 48
    -6
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    Although I personally would not put parities between these terms.

    A real case: May or June 1945 (the war has just ended). Two American soldiers are talking to our girl soldier. They:
    - What are you fighting for?
    She is:
    - For Soviet power.
    They:
    - And we are for the money.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 10: 23
      +7
      Quote: Sahar Medovich
      They:
      - And we are for the money.

      The US Army of those years was, of course, conscript. Where did they get the English-speaking Soviet girl?
      1. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 21 December 2020 12: 23
        +2
        We must think in the same place where they took other Soviet soldiers, and the Soviet soldiers took Russian-speaking Americans, when they celebrated the victory together.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 12: 41
          +3
          Quote: Sahar Medovich
          when celebrating the victory together.

          Did anyone celebrate the victory together? I remember exchanges of delegations, nothing more. The Soviet government did not very much encourage fraternization with the class enemy.
          A few days earlier Ike told us how he had asked a young soldier what he had been doing before the army. The young man replied that he was a farmer from Kansas, growing wheat.

          - How many acres of land do you have? - Ike asked, perked up at the mention of his home state.

          “Twelve thousand, sir.

          - Twelve thousand? - asked Ike. - And how much do you have under wheat?

          - Nine thousand, sir,

          - And what is the harvest?

          - Forty-one bushels per acre.

          - Mister, - said Ike (passing this story to us, Ike grinned), - try to remember my name. When the war is over, I will come and hire you.

          “When I was a kid,” Ike concluded, “having two hundred and fifty acres of wheat in Kansas was the biggest dream any guy from Abilene ever dreamed of. Yes sir, it was very tempting for me, and for you, Brad, I think it would be nice.

          “In Moberly, I would agree to one hundred and sixty acres,” I replied.


          Well, why should Soviet soldiers listen to such conversations? Acre - 0,4 tithes, bushel - 27 kg. For 64 tithes under wheat, he would agree, Missouri muzzle.
          1. Sugar Honeyovich
            Sugar Honeyovich 21 December 2020 14: 58
            0
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Did anyone celebrate the victory together?

            Yes of course. Many. Especially with the Americans - they are cheerful, cheerful. But the British, as they said, did not particularly make contact. Probably, they did not encourage it.
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Well, why should Soviet soldiers listen to such conversations?

            Why not? For the peasant, the topic is very relevant!
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 15: 00
              +2
              Quote: Sahar Medovich
              For the peasant, the topic is very relevant!

              Exactly.

              Do you well understand what thoughts a peasant of the 40s can think of after that? But the Soviet government understood it well.
              1. Sugar Honeyovich
                Sugar Honeyovich 21 December 2020 15: 08
                +1
                And then there is nothing to understand. Then the peasants well remembered what it was a quarter of a century ago. One has a thousand tithes, and a thousand has one tithe. And then the American will tell that he is from the family of a farmer who went bankrupt, unable to withstand competition with some "agricultural holding".
                1. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 15: 18
                  +3
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  Then the peasants remembered well what it was a quarter of a century ago.

                  And they remembered even better how it had just happened.
                  Quote: Sahar Medovich
                  And then the American will tell that he is from the family of a farmer who went bankrupt, unable to withstand competition with some "agricultural holding".

                  Is it like Grapes of Wrath? Like went broke, got into a truck and went with his family around the country to look for a better life?
                  1. Jünger
                    Jünger 21 December 2020 15: 28
                    +3
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    Is it like Grapes of Wrath? Like went broke, got into a truck and went with his family around the country to look for a better life?

                    By the way, "Grapes of Wrath" makes you think that not everything was good in the USA at that time.
                  2. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 15: 33
                    +2
                    Quote: Junger
                    that by no means everything was good in the USA at that time.

                    Not everything is good?
                    There is a complete tryndets, in the American sense.

                    But the Soviet soldiers-liberators are aware that the tryndets may not be like that.
                  3. Jünger
                    Jünger 21 December 2020 15: 35
                    +1
                    Quote: Cherry Nine
                    There is a complete tryndets, in the American sense.

                    I mean, there is a tryndets not only in the American sense. He can also impress the Soviet liberator.
                    Although the latter, of course, did not have a personal truck.
                  4. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 15: 45
                    +1
                    Quote: Junger
                    He can impress the Soviet liberator too.

                    Really? I honestly think that it is difficult to impress the peasants who survived the 30s in the USSR. Maybe Pol Pot would have succeeded, but Roosevelt is still unlikely.
                  5. Jünger
                    Jünger 21 December 2020 15: 56
                    +2
                    The truth is that Soviet peasants in the early 30s were in poverty, but in different regions in different ways. And if people ate people in the Kuban and Ukraine, then my grandfathers and grandmothers, in principle, survived without family losses in the Vyatka province. Although it was hard.
                    And to die of hunger does not matter where - in the Kuban or in the southern United States.
                  6. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 16: 00
                    +3
                    Quote: Junger
                    my grandfathers and grandmothers, in principle, survived without family losses in the Vyatka province.

                    From lucky so lucky.
                    Quote: Junger
                    And to die of hunger does not matter where - in the Kuban or in the southern United States.

                    And how is it, a lot of famine died in the South of the United States?
                  7. Jünger
                    Jünger 21 December 2020 16: 05
                    +1
                    And I don't know by the way. I read about some cosmic figures - on the order of hundreds of thousands or millions. Come and lie the Bolsheviks wink But I still got the impression that it was bad there.
                  8. Cherry Nine
                    Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 16: 32
                    +1
                    Quote: Junger
                    Come and lie the Bolsheviks

                    Zhidobolsheviks? No, the "Roosevelt Holodomor" was invented in ZhZhshechka 10 years ago.
                2. ccsr
                  ccsr 21 December 2020 18: 28
                  -1
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  And how is it, a lot of famine died in the South of the United States?

                  According to various estimates, up to several million Americans:
                  In confirmation of his sensational conclusions, Borisov pointed out that data on population growth in the United States almost instantly halved at the turn of the 1930-1931s and remained at this point for a whole decade, then returning to the original figure. However, the enormous demographic losses cannot be explained by a simple reduction in the birth rate. The idea of ​​hiding real data in the years of the Great Depression of Borisov also suggests that nowhere in official documents there are no explanations regarding the significant statistical fluctuations that he discovered. The data on the demographic situation in the 1932 year simply do not exist or they are safely hidden. In later reports, which were compiled by US statistical agencies, there are clear allusions to falsification, which deprives the government, which allows such actions, the right to any credible comments on this issue. Trying to find out from Americans about that time is the same as trying to determine the number of civilians killed in Vietnam, Korea or Iraq.

                  https://topwar.ru/22582-golodomor-v-ssha-v-30-ye-gody-xx-go-veka-za-i-protiv.html
                3. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 23: 16
                  +1
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Zhidobolsheviks? No, the "Roosevelt Holodomor" was invented in ZhZhshechka 10 years ago.

                  Quote: ccsr
                  In support of his sensational conclusions, Borisov indicated

                  Yes, this creature, thanks for reminding me.
          2. Sugar Honeyovich
            Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 10: 56
            -1
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            I honestly think that it is difficult to impress the peasants who survived the 30s in the USSR.

            The Europeans, however, succeeded. Especially with regard to those Soviet people who lived in Europe, and did not just see it. It turned out that in the USSR in the 1930s. they lived very much even nothing ... good
  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 21 December 2020 15: 37
    0
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    And they remembered even better how it had just happened.

    That's it. Why there were "Rodina" and "Soviet power" are one and the same.
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    went broke, got into a truck and drove with his family around the country to look for a better life

    Well yes. If, however, did not go on a funeral cart to the cemetery.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 15: 43
    +1
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    Why there were "Rodina" and "Soviet power" are one and the same.

    Uh, no, not quite.
    Quote: Sahar Medovich
    If, however, did not go to the cemetery in a funeral cart.

    Crocodile tears about the Americans who died of hunger in the 30s are always pleasing.
  • Bolt cutter
    Bolt cutter 21 December 2020 13: 06
    +2
    The US Army of those years was, of course, a conscript
    The American GIs hardly fought for anything else - they really did last year's harvest in Dakota much more important than the liberation of Europe, the prisoners of concentration camps and the flourishing of democracy. To say "drove, here we are fighting" is also not pretty, not a cattle go soldier So the soldier blurted out about what interested him. Why not?.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 13: 12
      +1
      Quote: Bolt Cutter
      Indeed, last year's harvest in Dakota was much more important to them than the liberation of Europe, the concentration camp prisoners and the flourishing of democracy.

      In general, yes. Addy did FDR a big favor by declaring war himself.
      Quote: Bolt Cutter
      To say "drove, here we are fighting" is also not pretty, not a cattle go

      In fact, the rhetoric was "we did not start this war, but we will end it."
      Quote: Bolt Cutter
      So the soldier blurted out about what interested him.

      In the army, he was losing money, not earning it.
      1. Bolt cutter
        Bolt cutter 21 December 2020 13: 28
        -1
        In fact, the rhetoric was
        The soldiers' official rhetoric was even less interested in the rights of the prisoners in Buchenwald. He would be in the dance hall, but a dozen stronger cocktails yes In real life, he was dragged away from the distant lands to understand (from his bell tower). And for the money, how did it come out. Well, in fact, he could not proudly say, "I am fighting for ZHRAT" wassat
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 13: 56
          +2
          Quote: Bolt Cutter
          He would be in the dance hall, but a dozen stronger cocktails

          Yes? And yet they fought and died. Or they might not.
          1. Bolt cutter
            Bolt cutter 21 December 2020 13: 59
            0
            Or they might not.
            So the discipline is the same. And punishments for particularly distinguished pacifists.
  • Engineer
    Engineer 21 December 2020 12: 29
    +5
    Presumably, dirty tackles from the side of the vile minke whales followed. But the girl slapped them both in the face with shouts "For the Motherland, For Stalin"

    Gustav Hasford:
    What is the difference between a children's fairy tale and a soldier's story?
    The tale begins with the words "once upon a time", and the soldier's story "here is a real case ..."
    1. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 21 December 2020 15: 01
      0
      Yes! And they fled in panic. Overseas. good
  • Jünger
    Jünger 21 December 2020 12: 34
    -3
    And the Americans probably added - "we are fighting to oppress blacks, and, of course, for same-sex marriages"))
    A rather clumsy invented lie without any attempts to disguise it.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 13: 15
      +3
      Quote: Junger
      of course, for same-sex marriage

      In the States of those years, this idea was not popular. Moreover, the USSR, at least in the 20s, was distinguished by much more liberal morals in this respect.
    2. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 21 December 2020 15: 01
      0
      True true.
  • Crowe
    Crowe 21 December 2020 05: 46
    +12
    Thus, German intelligence and (based on its data) the top military-political leadership were unable to correctly assess the military power of the USSR. The spiritual, political, economic, military, organizational, scientific, technical and educational potential of Russia was assessed incorrectly.

    There is no greater trouble than underestimating the enemy. Lao Tzu.
    July 31 1941 years at a meeting with the high military command, Hitler formulated the general strategic objectives of the war

    Excuse me, here a little bit of a mess has crept into a good and interesting article:
    The sooner we break Russia, the better. The operation will make sense only if we defeat the entire state with one swift blow. Seizing some part of the territory is not enough. Stopping action in winter is dangerous. Therefore, it is better to wait, but make a firm decision to destroy Russia.

    F. Halder. War diary. Summary of Hitler's speech on 31 July 1940 year.
    PS I ask you to consider this not a nit-picking, but just a harmless senile grumbling))
  • Boris55
    Boris55 21 December 2020 07: 25
    +7
    Why Hitler lost the war in the East

    Because WE could not lose.

    The very formulation of the question in this form is something: "Poor Hitler lost the war in some sort of East," and not why we live in that very East and our relatives died in this war?

  • Sugar Honeyovich
    Sugar Honeyovich 21 December 2020 07: 45
    +3
    "The stake was placed on the inefficiency, weakness and inability of the Soviet leadership, which would simply be paralyzed by the war.
    “It was assumed that the rejection of the western part of Russia would lead to the collapse of the military-industrial complex of the USSR.
    "... a sudden war will cause panic and chaos in Russia, the collapse of the state and political system, possible military mutinies and riots in the national outskirts. Moscow will not be able to organize the country, army and people to repel the aggressor. The USSR will collapse in a matter of months."
    "And then the German troops in an atmosphere of complete chaos, as in 1918," by railroad march "and small forces will easily pass far to the East"
    Everything is based on the experience of World War I ...
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 10: 28
      +2
      Quote: Sahar Medovich
      Everything is based on the experience of World War I ...

      In WWI, Russia rotted for about 3 years. If the Wehrmacht had plans for a three-year war - the USSR, most likely, is over.
      1. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 21 December 2020 12: 27
        +1
        And France and even Belgium held out in WWI for more than 4 years and won. What would have happened to them if the Wehrmacht had planned a four-year war? fellow
        1. Igor Kobernik
          Igor Kobernik 21 December 2020 16: 11
          +1
          Belgium??? Aha! Only Belgium, as an independent state, did not exist until 1925 ... History, however ...
          1. Sergey Valov
            Sergey Valov 21 December 2020 18: 21
            0
            I wonder if the Belgians know about this? sad
          2. Sugar Honeyovich
            Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 10: 32
            0
            And what was the hint of the location? And what happened in 1925? laughing good
        2. Vladimir_2U
          Vladimir_2U 21 December 2020 16: 27
          0
          Quote: Sahar Medovich
          And France and even Belgium held out in WWI for more than 4 years and won. What would have happened to them if the Wehrmacht had planned a four-year war?
          Great comment! We must remember the wording!
  • 1970mk
    1970mk 21 December 2020 07: 48
    +2
    I don’t understand ONE - what is "Russia"? There was no such state! There was the USSR! THIS IS NOT RUSSIA! Actually, this fact, such headlines, is the rewriting of history.
  • BAI
    BAI 21 December 2020 10: 26
    +2
    Why Hitler lost the war in the East

    When Hitler arrived in June 1942 for Mannerheim's jubilee, he (Hitler) said:
    "If I knew that the Russians had 20 tanks, I would never have attacked Russia."
    1. Andrey VOV
      Andrey VOV 21 December 2020 10: 36
      +3
      20000 tanks TOTAL IN THE RKKA from Vladivostok to Brest
    2. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 21 December 2020 12: 21
      0
      And he was counting - how many Russian tanks? And his generals?
  • Andrey VOV
    Andrey VOV 21 December 2020 10: 28
    +1
    Why publish such material, especially in Samsonov's presentation? Were there deeper and a hundred times more qualitative materials and research?
    For the West, what then, what now, all the inhabitants of the USSR were Russian ... and in my opinion, it is already clear to everyone that the Soviet people, a single state, won the Great Patriotic War, and you should not measure yourself, they say so many Belarusians died, and there are so many Kazakhs ... peoples, made their contribution, including the Baltic annexed shortly before the war, we must remember all who defended our Motherland
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 21 December 2020 12: 56
      +3
      Quote: Andrey VOV
      Why publish such material, especially in Samsonov's presentation? Were there deeper and a hundred times more qualitative materials and research?

      This is a rhetorical question, if only because most readers are unlikely to take serious qualitative research into their hands, but the bulk of readers are sometimes useful to refresh their memory on some pages of history, including Germany's preparations for war. What is valuable in this work is that the author once again proved on the basis of pre-war documents of 1940 that Hitler's statement that he was allegedly forced to attack the USSR in response to our preparations is a lie, because the war was planned long before June 22. Those. all the garbage of Rezun, Corned beef and other false historians can be immediately thrown into the basket only on the basis of the autumn documents of the Wehrmacht. Also valuable is the author's comment that German intelligence did not fully assess the military potential of the USSR, and this led to strategic planning errors in preparation for war. For me, this is also interesting because here a certain figure dashed off several articles that allegedly our military intelligence did not reveal the plans of the German troops, and their change of shoulder straps and buttonholes on uniforms misled the Russian General Staff on the eve of the war. The author of the article once again emphasized that German intelligence was much worse than ours, presented data on our military power and spacecraft plans to prepare for war in the very last weeks before June 22. So there is something to compare with for objectivity, especially for those who like to smear with black paint our entire pre-war period, starting with the repressions.
      However, the author makes some superficial statements when he states:
      In July 1940, the General Staff of the Wehrmacht's ground forces was already carrying out a concrete development of a plan for a war with the USSR. On July 22, the Chief of the General Staff of the Ground Forces F. Halder received the task from the Commander-in-Chief of the Ground Forces to think over various options for the Russian campaign. First, this task was entrusted to the chief of staff of the 18th Army, General Erich Marx, who enjoyed Hitler's special confidence.
      ... On August 5, 1940, the original plan for the war with Russia - "Plan Fritz" was prepared by General Marx.

      Well, it is impossible to create a plan for a war with the USSR from scratch in a month, especially for a chief of staff not of the first magnitude. Therefore, here it would be correct to say that the PLAN was not created, but analytical materials were presented for the memorandum to Paulus, about which the author writes further:
      Also Generals, future chiefs of staff of army groups were involved in the development of a plan for a war with the USSR. On September 17 they prepared their views on the Eastern campaign. Paulus received the task to summarize all the results of operational and strategic planning. On October 29, Paulus prepared a memo "On the main idea of ​​the operation against Russia."

      As can be seen from the text, completely different people took part in the preparation of the materials that formed the basis for the still memorandum on the DESIGN, on the basis of which a plan was subsequently created called the "Barbarossa Directive".
      Well, the role of the German Lieutenant Colonel B. Lossberg in such planning comes down to purely technical work, and the author somewhat exaggerated his role - I have no doubt about that.
      Although not everyone understands these subtleties, the author nevertheless needs to at least observe some consistency and accuracy when presenting the history of the creation of such a historical document.
      In general, I think that the work was successful enough and was done at a normal level for anyone interested to read it.
      1. Sergey Valov
        Sergey Valov 21 December 2020 15: 59
        +2
        The normal general staff of any army has plans for war with ALL probable and improbable opponents, this is his routine work. But the decision on the upcoming hostilities is made by the country's political leadership. Similarly, the current Russian Federation probably has plans for a war with all its neighbors and partners on the globe. This is normal. These are not aggressive designs, they are reasonable foresight.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 21 December 2020 18: 17
          -2
          Quote: Sergey Valov
          The normal general staff of any army has plans for war with ALL probable and improbable opponents, this is his routine work.

          The general staff will be worn out to do this - you are in captivity of illusions, and this proves that you obviously had nothing to do with the general staff.
          Quote: Sergey Valov
          But the decision on the upcoming hostilities is made by the country's political leadership.

          As a civilian in the person of the president, he can determine what the hostilities will be, if he never did it himself, but listened only to the reports of the military. So he will most likely demand from the military an analytical study into what any situation can result in, and on its basis he will make a decision. There is no need to extol the level of military knowledge among civilians - this is still the lot of military specialists, and as they say to Caesar-Caesar ...
          Quote: Sergey Valov
          Likewise, the current Russian Federation certainly has plans for war with all its neighbors and partners on the globe.

          What for to plan a war with 95% of the countries of the world, if we really have two comparable enemies on the planet - the United States and China. It is from this that the General Staff proceeds, and everything else is secondary. Even the events of 08.08.08 showed that there were no plans in relation to Georgia, and only the determination of the operational services of the North Caucasus Military District made it possible to avoid big casualties on our part.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 21 December 2020 10: 29
    +5
    The Wehrmacht's assessments of the quantitative and qualitative parameters of our armored forces and the Air Force turned out to be just as wrong. For example, the Reich intelligence believed that in 1941 the annual production of aircraft in Russia was 3500-4000 aircraft. In reality, from the beginning of January 1939 to June 22, 1941, the Air Force received over 17,7 thousand aircraft.

    For which "thanks" to the Germans should be said to themselves. They impressed the delegation of the Soviet aviation industry so much that they estimated the daily production of aircraft in the Reich at 70-80 units. After that, the task was set to raise the production of aircraft in the USSR to this value. And the chaos and assault began - there was not enough personnel, machine tools and even hammers ("one hammer for three" in the brigade - there is no more in the warehouse). Marriage - 80%. Reducing rejects to 50% was recognized as an achievement. The directors of factories, losing their positions, were immediately appointed to another plant - no personnel, not the same. Mukhin (who is a historian, not a propagandist) described this period well.
    However, there is a silver lining - it was possible to mobilize the air force in the USSR in relatively greenhouse pre-war conditions. What would have happened to the NKAP, if the same task had been set in June 1941, against the background of total evacuation and the breaking of ties, is difficult even to imagine.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 11: 03
      +1
      Quote: Alexey RA
      However, there is a silver lining - it was possible to mobilize the air force in the USSR in relatively greenhouse pre-war conditions.

      An optimist is a person who walks through a cemetery and sees only pluses, pluses, pluses ...

      The military aircraft industry is so out of hand, and in the pre-war period, when the people's power came to grips with it, it went along the female line. Starting with the fact that there was an unhealthy interdepartmental competition: the People's Commissariat of M.M. Kaganovich (or rather A.I. Shakhurin) was engaged in airplanes with wooden gliders, and all work on metal gliders was concentrated in the People's Commissariat of L.P. Beria (Tupolev, Petlyakov, Arkhangelsky, Myasishchev).

      Well, and with the leaders, of course, no luck. Comrade Shakhurin turned out to be a pest
      for a long time, he produced aircraft and engines with large design and production imperfections and, in conspiracy with the command of the Air Force, supplied them to the Air Force, as a result of which a large number of accidents and disasters occurred in aviation units, pilots died, and many defective ones accumulated aircraft that could not be used in battles with the Germans


      And comrade. Beria, as it turned out later, is such a fruit that at least stand, at least fall.
      As now established by the investigation, Beria made connections with foreign intelligence services during the Civil War. In 1919, while in Baku, Beria committed treason by joining a secret-agent position in the intelligence of the counter-revolutionary Musavat government in Azerbaijan, which operated under the control of the British intelligence agencies. In 1920, Beria, while in Georgia, again committed a treasonous act, establishing a secret connection with the Menshevik secret police in Georgia, which was a branch of British intelligence.

      The investigation established that in subsequent years Beria maintained and expanded his criminal ties with foreign intelligence services through the spies they sent in, protecting these enemies of the Soviet state from exposure and deserved punishment.

      Acting as a traitor to the Motherland and a spy who had sold himself to foreign intelligence services, Beria, throughout his criminal activities, with the help of his accomplices, also maintained secret ties with counter-revolutionary Georgian exchange-minded emigrants, agents of a number of foreign intelligence services.

      Carefully concealing and masking his criminal past and enemy ties with the intelligence services of foreign states, Beria chose as the main method slander, intrigue, various provocations against honest party, Soviet workers who stood in the way of his plans hostile to the Soviet state and prevented him from getting to power.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 21 December 2020 16: 15
        +1
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        An optimist is a person who walks through a cemetery and sees only pluses, pluses, pluses ...

        But what can you do - you need to find at least something positive. wink
        Otherwise, the pre-war aviation industry is a complete BZSHDNST. There is no aluminum, no personnel, no equipment. Products are scrapped in orderly rows. They just adopted the motor - and immediately it turned out that it looks like real but doesn't work... And YES was left without a new long-range bomber, and the front-line - without a near bomber. The new aircraft show excellent performance characteristics in prototype models, and are regularly rolled into the UG in the series. And the eternal saga about motors that have not been brought to the series: here you are, comrades designers, M-105 - create on its basis whatever you want. But now use the M-82 with caution - it will take another two years to finish.
        Subcontractors are good too. For new aircraft, machine guns are removed from those already released - because there are not enough new KKPs. The new attack aircraft was left without guns, because the chief designer of these was not interested in finishing his product - he gushed with new ideas. And the aviation is sitting on a hungry fuel ration - the NKTP thwarts plans (for 1941 the People's Commissariat promised to cover only a quarter of the high-octane requirements according to peacetime standards).
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 16: 39
          +2
          Quote: Alexey RA
          And the aviation is sitting on a hungry fuel ration - the NKTP frustrates its plans (for 1941 the People's Commissariat promised to cover only a quarter of the high-octane requirements according to peacetime norms).

          Uh-huh.

          For this reason, the Soviet government produces as many aircraft as possible, simultaneously produces 5 fighter models (I-16, I-153, Yak, MiG, LaGG). What planning is there on a national scale in the USSR! they said. The scarcity of engineering staff and technological base does not allow providing a wide range of products, but it requires concentration of all efforts on priority projects! they said.

          History has left us too little time, yes.

          There is no aluminum, no personnel, no equipment.


          Very interesting.

          Especially if you add that tankers make engines of aluminum, you can look for personnel in the Commissariat Comrade. Beria, what about the equipment? Where did it go? Douglas III was just released just now? SB was made almost like the British Lancaster, and aluminum, by the way, was enough, an all-metal aircraft.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 21 December 2020 17: 48
            +2
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            Especially if we add that tankers make engines from aluminum

            The tankers must not be touched - otherwise we will be left with only BT-7 and T-26.
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            frames can be found in the Commissariat of Comrade. Beria

            There are only constructors. And to mobilize the aviation industry, you need competent and experienced Workers frames. With which full seams - new brigades at aircraft factories are staffed from handymen, over whom are put 2-3 people from the "old cadres". But they do not give time for training - "from march to battle." And then we have laughter and mockery of foreign intelligence services. ©
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            and the equipment? Where did it go? Douglas III was just released just now? SB was made almost like the British Lancaster, and aluminum, by the way, was enough, an all-metal aircraft.

            Right. released. 15-20 cars per day per country. And the party set the task - to bring the daily output to 70-80 cars. belay
            1. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 23: 40
              +2
              Quote: Alexey RA
              otherwise we will be left with only BT-7 and T-26.

              Of course, making a tank engine out of cast iron is not an option. 80 years have passed, and have not yet learned, by the way. It's a whole ton of weight per back rollers.
              Quote: Alexey RA
              There are only constructors.

              You see. If there were only designers, to Comrade. Stalin would have had much fewer claims. Didn't figs buy a refrigerator, where did an honest person get a refrigerator from?
              Quote: Alexey RA
              But they don't give time for training - "from march to battle"

              Oh, what kind of planning was there with Comrade. Stalin!
              Quote: Alexey RA
              15-20 cars per day per country.

              20 cars a day is 7,3 thousand a year, isn't it?
              Quote: Alexey RA
              And the party set the task - to bring the daily output to 70-80 cars.

              Is this the same batch about 30 mechanized corps with 1031 tanks? And before that, about 310 thousand tons of battleship tonnage bookmarked 38-39 years?

              Some kind of wrecking party turns out, isn't it? How was their relationship with the German General Staff there last time? So so so...

              History has given them too little time, yeah.
  • Trapp1st
    Trapp1st 21 December 2020 10: 32
    -1
    there were huge miscalculations in the determination by the Germans of the size of the Red Army in peacetime and in wartime.
    Adolf Aloisovich said: "If I knew how many Russian divisions, I would never attack the USSR"
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 10: 51
      +2
      Quote: Trapp1st
      Aloisovich said: "If I knew how many Russian divisions had, I would never have attacked the USSR."

      Quote: Trapp1st
      When Hitler arrived in June 1942 for Mannerheim's jubilee, he (Hitler) said:
      "If I knew that the Russians had 20 tanks, I would never have attacked Russia."

      Flirty, even if it was. Naturally, I would have attacked, that is why I would have attacked, and at the same time. I just prepared myself better, primarily in terms of planning.
      1. Trapp1st
        Trapp1st 21 December 2020 11: 07
        -1
        Naturally, I would have attacked, which is why I would have attacked
        This is already from the category of conspiracy theories, and he was worried about tanks in August 41.
        If I knew that the Russians really have so many tanks ... I probably would not start this war.
        (memoirs of G. Guderian)
  • VS
    VS 21 December 2020 13: 40
    +2
    "" On August 5, 1940, the original plan for the war with Russia - "Plan Fritz" was prepared by General Marx. According to this plan, the main blow to Moscow was delivered from Northern Poland and East Prussia. It was supposed to deploy Army Group North, consisting of 68 divisions (including 17 mobile formations). Army Group North was to defeat the Russian troops in the western direction, occupy the northern part of Russia and take Moscow. Then it was planned to turn the main forces to the south and, in cooperation with the southern group of forces, to seize the eastern part of Ukraine and the southern regions of the USSR.

    - Ie Before Barbarossa, TWO strikes on the SSR were envisaged - on the Baltic and through the Ukraine !?
    I wonder if it was not from here that Zhukov carried garbage that they did not expect a strike on Belarus from the Germans? ((
    But - and where is the link to the source? (((

    But another thing is also interesting here - Shaposhnikov clearly calculated the plans of the Germans for AUGUST 40 !!)))

    "" The plan for the war with the USSR included, in addition to Directive No. 21, a number of directives and orders of the main command. In particular, the OKH directive of January 31, 1941 on the strategic concentration and deployment of troops was of particular importance. It clarified the tasks of the armed forces. ""
    - and also on January 31, Brauchitsch indicated the date of the attack on the USSR)):

    Brauchitsch: ""Preparatory work must be carried out in such a way that the offensive (day "B") can be launched on 21.6. "")))
  • VS
    VS 21 December 2020 13: 46
    +2
    Quote: Olgovich
    1 million conscientious citizens served the Germans?

    This has never happened in the history of the country.

    and a war of this magnitude has never happened in Russia ... And did it serve HOW?)) like with arms in hand fought against the Bolsheviks and the Soviet regime, or was it somewhat different?))
    1. Jünger
      Jünger 21 December 2020 14: 36
      +1
      Quote: V.S.
      and there has never been a war of this magnitude in Russia.

      There was such a war every hundred years on the appropriate scale of its time. And Napoleon reached Moscow without tanks faster than Hitler.
      But the leadership is dumber than the Bolsheviks in the history of our country has not yet been.
      It is what it is.
      1. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 11: 03
        +1
        Quote: Junger
        But the leadership is dumber than the Bolsheviks in the history of our country has not yet been.

        Then, judging by the results, God helped them more than anyone in the history of our country. fellow
      2. VS
        VS 23 December 2020 09: 05
        -1
        Quote: Junger
        Quote: V.S.
        and there has never been a war of this magnitude in Russia.

        There was such a war every hundred years on the appropriate scale of its time. And Napoleon reached Moscow without tanks faster than Hitler.
        But the leadership is dumber than the Bolsheviks in the history of our country has not yet been.
        It is what it is.

        yeah - and they won in spite of the Bolsheviks and Stalin (((Didn't you get tired of RIDING about the Bolsheviks as the most stupid leadership of Russia? One of Napoleon dragged Moscow to Moscow without a fight) practically everything is fine .. Another drove the country into the trash a hundred years ago - a saint .. And Stalin Is it your fault that you did not become a lampshade or dung in the fields of German burghers?
    2. Sergey Valov
      Sergey Valov 21 December 2020 16: 04
      -1
      They fought not against the Bolsheviks, but against the Motherland. And they served with weapons in their hands, without weapons, millions worked for the Germans, because otherwise they would simply starve to death in the occupation.
  • Unknown
    Unknown 21 December 2020 14: 21
    +5
    Everything has been said about the beginning of the Second World War, a lot of works, ours, foreign historians have been published, probably will still be published. There will be nothing new. You can only put forward different fantastic versions no more. No matter how they personally criticized Comrade STALIN and the General Staff with our generals, after the first setbacks, the leadership of the USSR retained faith in victory, and this is the most important thing. The author had to read more carefully, for example, the same Guderian, although he wrote for the Americans after the war, he told them fairy tales, but sometimes completely different notes slipped through ......... I expressed my disappointment and indignation very unequivocally, hitting both of my co-workers. They were under the impression of the plan of the main [192] command of the ground forces and therefore immediately replied to me that, according to the chief of the general staff of the ground forces, Halder, it would take no more than eight or ten weeks to defeat Russia. The division of forces between three approximately equal groups of armies, which should move in diverging directions deep into the territory of Russia, without a clear operational goal, from the point of view of a military specialist, could not seem correct. I communicated my fears through my chief of staff to the main command of the ground forces, which, however, had no effect.

    Not being privy to all matters, I could still hope that Hitler had not finally decided on a war with the Soviet Union, but only wanted to intimidate him. Still, the winter and spring of 1941 were a nightmare for me. A new study of the campaigns of the Swedish king Charles XII and Napoleon 1 showed all the difficulties of this theater of military operations; at the same time the inadequacy of our preparation for such a large campaign was revealed. Past successes, especially the victory in the west, won in such an unexpectedly short time, so clouded the brains of the leaders of our high command that they deleted the word "impossible" from their vocabulary. All the senior officials of the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces and the General Command of the Ground Forces with whom I have spoken showed unwavering optimism and did not respond to any objection. .... That's what it means! ,, Unshakable optimism ,, no less! Calling things by their proper names - self-confidence. Well, they will soon fade away. Or another one, with his ,, lost victories ,, ....... the mistake that Hitler fell into, underestimating the strength of the Soviet state system, the resources of the Soviet Union and the fighting efficiency of the Red Army. Therefore, he proceeded from the assumption that he would be able to defeat the Soviet Union militarily in one campaign. But in general, if it was possible, then only if it was possible to simultaneously undermine the Soviet system from the inside ........ This, more or less clearly expressed. After all, what a conclusion suggests itself, they underestimated the Soviet power itself, and everything connected with it. It remains to undermine from the inside what they have done. And he wrote his memoirs somewhere in the early 50s.
    1. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 21 December 2020 16: 15
      +1
      "the author should have read more carefully, for example, the same Guderian *
      Victor Nikolaevich, Samsonov CANNOT READ CAREFULLY
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 21 December 2020 16: 01
    0
    , with a more unfavorable situation - 17 weeks "I wonder: how did this" designer "explain his failures:" General Frost "? If they did it according to my plan." The corporal who stole the boots of the marshal. "
    Many Wehrmacht generals in 1940 adored Hitler, and by July 1941 they readily "remembered" that he was a corporal.
  • Outsider
    Outsider 21 December 2020 17: 18
    -2
    Quote: pmkemcity
    Quote: BAI
    This is how to count. Every third person died on the territory of Belarus.

    Weren't they the Russians?

    - They were Belarusian ...
    1. iouris
      iouris 22 December 2020 12: 49
      +1
      These were Soviet citizens: Russians, Belarusians, Jews, Tatars ...
  • iouris
    iouris 21 December 2020 22: 36
    +1
    This issue has long been studied, so you just need to reprint the publications of authoritative historians, and not amateurs. Unfortunately, the "novelty" in our time usually consists in the fact that the reader is pushed to the conclusion, like "the Germans had everything self-most, super-duper, but Hitler did not listen to smart field marshals."
    As for the Great Patriotic War, it should be emphasized that the bourgeois "civilization" went to war not against Russia (RF), but against the USSR, and the USSR is a communist state (socialism is the lowest phase of communism). Whatever one may say, the Bolsheviks, who broke the back of Nazism, not only led Russia (USSR), but also effectively ruled it, which by the way was recognized by all allies and opponents without exception. Moreover, Russia (USSR) was significantly larger in area and population, and Hitler started not from the Pskov region, but from the Kaliningrad region.
    1. place
      place 22 December 2020 13: 58
      +3
      Quote: iouris
      Moreover, Russia (USSR) was significantly larger in area and population.


      The USSR fought not against Germany, but against the countries of the Hitler's "axis" and their satellites.
      It was practically the entire European Union. Their population was over 220 million.
      The number of the belligerent Axis countries is more than 160 million.
      There is one more fact that we "do not remember".
      Due to the unsuccessful start of the war, by 1942 the USSR lost the area where about 80 million people lived before the war. Tens of millions, naturally, could not evacuate or "go to the partisans". But they worked to live. On whom ? Obviously not to the USSR.
      There is one more fact that we "do not remember".
      If in 1941 only persons aged 20 and over were called up for military service in the Reich, then in 1943-1944. - from 17 years old, and from February 1945 - 16 years old. In the USSR, until the end of the war, the draft age for sending to the front remained -18 years. Those who were drafted at the age of 17 served only in units that were not part of the active army.
      1. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 14: 37
        0
        Quote: ort
        and since February 1945, 16 years old

        And there is information that the 15-year-olds were called up already in May 1944 (even before the opening of the second front).
  • Michael
    Michael 21 December 2020 22: 50
    -1
    Victory-suffered disaster. You won, you are the grail.
  • faterdom
    faterdom 22 December 2020 00: 41
    +2
    The Nazis set a goal

    "Crush the Russians as a people"

    It's time to start talking more accurately, not "Hitlerites", but "Germans with other nations of Europe."
    Otherwise they are planning to talk to us "from a position of strength".
    If we were mistaken in allowing the re-creation of a united Germany, no one can guarantee that this will be repeated once more.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 01: 39
      +1
      Quote: faterdom
      If we were wrong in allowing the re-creation of a united Germany,

      )))
      Let me remind you that at the very time when you “allowed” the creation of a united Germany, you also “allowed” the creation of a disunited USSR. So it was a little bit not up to Germany, in principle.
    2. iouris
      iouris 22 December 2020 12: 47
      0
      Quote: faterdom
      If we were wrong in allowing the re-creation of a unified Germany

      "We" is where?
  • wow
    wow 22 December 2020 00: 54
    +3
    The current "Hans" should tell the grossdank to the relics of the Great Generalissimo for the fact that Germany and the Germans generally remained as a species. And there was, after all, every reason to destroy this species "in the bud".
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 22 December 2020 01: 47
      -1
      Quote: yo-mine
      for the fact that Germany and the Germans generally remained as a species

      Arrange a genocide in the GDR? Show both the Germans and the Allies that Goebbels was right? Well, this decision has its advantages, you are right. Better to be dead than red.
  • Diviz
    Diviz 22 December 2020 13: 57
    -2
    The ancestors of the Great Mughals won.
    1. When they opened the tomb of Tamerlane, they read the prophecy. His remains flew over Moscow.
    2. Some solid parallels. Otto is an Ottoman Empire. F is a symbol of unlimited power and strength. Can be associated with nuclear weapons. Therefore, all these and the names in F. Perhaps still went from the pharaohs.
    3. They knew where the ringing was but did not know where it was - The copy will never become the original.
  • Sailor
    Sailor 22 December 2020 16: 26
    +1
    Under the current corrupt leadership of the country, we cannot withstand. Stalin strengthened the country, not destroyed it, there is practically no production base, all hope is in nuclear weapons.
  • VS
    VS 23 December 2020 09: 09
    -2
    Quote: Olgovich
    Quote: V.S.
    Are you talking about Putin's RFii right now?)))

    Nope, this is about the Russian Federation: with her, these boundaries were established in 1917-1940 and with her the Russians became To die out.

    about the borders - you seem to be worried about how and what type of Lenin Bonbu laid under Russia so that he cut the borders for future collapse? Or maybe you can tell - WHEN the process of RI SEPARATION began - was it not BEFORE Lenin - was it not bulkokhrust?
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 23 December 2020 17: 08
    +2
    Quote: apro

    The Russians won, not the Bolsheviks.

    If, God forbid, such a war happens, it will be possible to win it without the Bolsheviks7
  • VS
    VS 25 December 2020 10: 03
    -1
    Quote: Olgovich
    Quote: V.S.
    can STATISTICS confirm the nonsense that in the USSR the Russians died out? (((

    Perevedentsev, Denisova, Beznin, Danilov and others - read the monographs.

    You can not?

    Simpler: "Opportunities for increasing fertility are limited - Demoscope

    There you will learn that NOT ONE generation under the Bolsheviks reproduced itself.

    Since 1964-DEPopulation

    and how did the number of the USSR increase then - at the expense of the Uzbek type?
  • Alexy
    Alexy 26 December 2020 20: 30
    0
    It was necessary to wipe Germany off the map in 45. Wouldn't admire now the ancient castles of Europe (not like in bastard Russia).
  • Molot1979
    Molot1979 27 December 2020 14: 42
    0
    Paradoxically, it turns out that the effective counterintelligence of the USSR became the cause of the war. Had our agencies worked worse, the Germans would have learned the number of tanks and aircraft of the Red Army and probably would not have dared to attack. So it follows from the text.
  • Old man
    Old man 27 December 2020 19: 17
    0
    Many fair words and important facts, BUT !!!!
    Any conclusion will be completely or partially erroneous, if you do not take into account the conclusions of the "Concept of the Core and Periphery" (https://www.proza.ru/2018/12/17/810), and it follows from it that, according to the Law of Motion, any process , and the development of mankind is a PROCESS, there is always a CORE and a PERIPHERAL. It is on the opposition of these two poles of the One Whole that Evolution is built.
    The periphery is freer and more reckless. Its role is to find, at any cost, everything new, without any regard for the consequences of such actions.
    The kernel is more conservative and judicious. Its role is to select, preserve, and transmit to others the necessary (but safe) locations of the Periphery.
    At the moment, the West (and Poland gravitating towards it) is the periphery of this Process. And Russia is the NUCLEUS.
    Until the behavior of people and peoples belonging to different poles of the Process is understood and analyzed, no analysis can be called correct.
  • Ilya Aksyonov
    Ilya Aksyonov 30 December 2020 12: 35
    0
    Mind does not understand Russia,
    No yardstick to measure:
    She has a special feature -
    You can only believe in Russia.


    Russia is invincible and immortal!
    Nothing can destroy Russia. Russia is eternal and invincible. Russia is not a nut for you, according to which you knock, and it will crack. Russia is a pillow by which you knock, and only dust will go, but nothing will come of it. Russia is a caramel stuck in the teeth, which you chew, you risk being left without teeth and without crowns. Russia is reinforced concrete of Stalingrad. Russia is Moscow, impregnable in winter frosts, from which I want to run away without pants on the Smolensk road. Russia is a strong, intelligent and patriotic people, an equal, which is not present in the whole world. Russia is endless fields and huge cities. Russia is fools and bad roads. Russia is such a vast territory that when the conqueror comes here, he does not have the strength to comprehend its vastness and he perishes here.
    Go Russia!


    And yet, despite the fact that Russians are the most divided people in the world. And, despite this, the most not broken and not killed people.

    Russians are a great nation of gods and lower races do not understand. Even in a humiliated state, Russian is incomparably higher than all other nations. God is not afraid to be humiliated, because he cannot be humiliated and insulted, he is merciful and all-forgiving - this is so similar to a Russian person. And I say in advance, howling and insulting - you are lower.

    Moreover, Russians are those who think in Russian, speak Russian, live with Russia in one breath, this is a person of any nation and class.

    And no chauvinism. Go Russia!

    And, of course, the most powerful core in the Russian nation is the Slavs. They are the ones who drag the entire nation on their backs. It is they who remain the eternal symbol of Russians for centuries, it is they who are the first to die in all battles against our enemies, they are the ones who die most of all, well, and of course, all the sins for everyone living in Russia fall on them, they are like a bird Phoenix revives and revives Great Russia for centuries.

    Russians are warriors at the genetic level, formed in natural selection, as a result of a long history of wars in our territory, not only men, but also women and children.

    Go Russia!
    1. misti1973
      misti1973 1 January 2021 04: 34
      0
      Such statements do it you have to be a complete nerd! Wars are not wars, but soldiers! and then the main command. Ateglpnoe841 was taken prisoner about 2 million ": genetic warriors were taken prisoner. And Stalin's order 227" Not a step back is also intended for "genetic wars"? The way you reason only ends
  • misti1973
    misti1973 1 January 2021 04: 09
    -1
    If anyone had such nonsense in his head, it was in the SS's top. It was Himmler who wrote the plan for the OST. Even Rosenberg did not think in such categories. Well, there was no question of genocide of some people in principle, but what was Goepner talking about, It does not matter at all. He is a general of the Wehrmacht and has nothing to do with the occupation administrations. Hitler in general, apparently, was in a hurry, because he was sure that the USSR was ready to attack Germany after the concentration of troops was completed. Considering that in the border areas At that time, the USSR already had more than 6 divisions, this is a completely justified opinion. With the USSR, German negotiations were conducted with one goal - to prevent war and to conclude a full-fledged alliance in the future. Why Stalin hung this proposal in the air is not clear.
    Judging by the number of troops and locations, so it would have been. Hitler needed resources to wage the war, but it depends on what kind of war? Hitler had no plans to capture the whole world and could not have! "The whole world" was in the territory of Russia and the Transcaucasia. And the German generals received Barbaross's directive in their hands in sealed envelopes with the words "Accept for execution without discussion", which was very unusual. and in general he took part in the conspiracy since 1938, and in 1942, he was removed for outright insubordination! There were no orders to the army about the destruction of civilians and executions of prisoners of war. The OKW directives concerned only the conduct of hostilities. The partisan is considered a saboteur in all countries, but soldiers were also shot if they refused to report any information. But immediately a huge amount was formed. It was not clear what to do with prisoners of war and what to do with them. They made filter camps in which everyone who did not have time to take out was shot at 44. Barbarossa's plan is generally very strange and when he got to Stalin, he decided that it was bullshit! To draw up a plan for such an operational depth of action? So it’s all just a directive. South was chosen as a priority not because of the concentration of the industry! Hitler could buy coal here without a war, but no one planned to export oil, there was no river transport for these purposes. The author moves in the rut of Soviet historians who lied godlessly!
  • Komdiv100
    Komdiv100 7 January 2021 14: 19
    0
    Interesting, professional stuff. This is not often seen in the media today.
    But it is not clear why it is said: "divisions (German) .... were located on the border with Russia." Until the border with Russia, it was still necessary to overcome Belarus, Ukraine, the Baltic states.
  • Evgeny Ivanov_3
    Evgeny Ivanov_3 16 January 2021 21: 11
    0
    What kind of falsification can we talk about? At the cost of huge losses, we won! USSR! The States and England, less than a year, fought on the 2nd front (without much success) What can be falsified here?
  • Andrey Pozdnyakov
    Andrey Pozdnyakov 21 January 2021 20: 00
    0
    Good article, thanks! Srach in the comments disgusting to read
  • serggb
    serggb 31 January 2021 13: 38
    0
    My father fought as a signalman. He joined the CPSU (b) in February 1942, while in the surrounded Leningrad, having gone through defensive battles on the Luga line and offensive battles in the forest to liberate villages near Tikhvin, when, after several weeks of fighting, their ski battalion of 600 people remained in the ranks 11 (eleven). At that time, the attitude towards the communists was very respectful.
  • zimzinov
    zimzinov 15 February 2021 18: 30
    0
    Therefore, Europe should not be regretted even once in the coming war. Neither her people, nor her country. Bring everyone to the slaughter. The Lord will discern who is who. In the next world.
  • Gregory Charnota
    Gregory Charnota 21 February 2021 15: 55
    0
    in the first photo, only Halder was lucky who died in 1972
  • LOCOMOTIVE VL60 LOCOMOTIVE VL82
    LOCOMOTIVE VL60 LOCOMOTIVE VL82 23 February 2021 13: 20
    0
    nonprotectiveprotectiveshirchol STI EEoT
  • Chevrolet Camaro
    Chevrolet Camaro 24 February 2021 15: 31
    0
    German tanks were difficult and expensive to manufacture, and in the field they were not repairable, from which the non-combat losses of German tanks began to grow rapidly by the end of 1942 and beginning of 1943.
  • serg v zapase
    serg v zapase 2 March 2021 22: 06
    0
    It happened, no pact saved the world, diplomats, not only Western ones, but ours once again crap, medical fact. Why, when concluding an agreement, do not specify the possibility of bilateral verification of the execution of the agreement. The same applies to the defeated Finns in the 40th year. On the other hand, what the leaders of Germany were thinking about, after all, it is clear that tanks, infantry, auxiliary units quickly and without breakdowns, not to mention resistance, will not cover 1000 km before winter. Are there really only stupid, stupid people in the leaders? However, the beginning of the Finnish war suggests that there was complete order in the USSR.