Military Review

"Tanks have proved their classic role": Polish press on the use of MBT in the Karabakh war

136

Armored armament, especially Tanks, played an important role in the Second Karabakh War. Usually tanks are used in modern conflicts as mobile firing points, but in this case, "the scale of the battles and the relatively flat terrain in the south allowed them to prove their classic role - to take on the brunt of breaking through the battle formations."


This opinion is expressed on the pages of the Polish edition of Defense24, which tried to summarize the preliminary results of the combat use of tanks. Numerous armored companies and battalions were allegedly used extensively by both sides, but details of their use are still unknown. However, the available information allows some general conclusions to be drawn regarding the use of tanks in the 44-day war.

Armed forces of Azerbaijan


In the main directions of the offensive, the armored fist of Azerbaijan consisted mainly of a fleet of T-72s of various versions of A / B / AB / Aslan. T-90S were also located on the southern sector of the front. T-55s were used in limited combat - for firing from closed positions in secondary sectors of the front, for example, in the heavily fortified Agdam region, where tanks only fired shells and pinned down enemy forces.

MBT operated in the mountainous sectors of the front, for example, in the north, but the most favorable conditions for the use of armored units were in the southern, relatively flat sector of the theater of operations, where the main breakthrough was made around October 5 in cooperation with artillery and special forces. The main tank battle during a stopped Armenian counterattack took place in the Jebrail region, the details of which, however, are unknown.

Azerbaijan's losses in tanks (at least 30 destroyed or damaged T-72s and 3 abandoned or faulty T-90Ss) are mainly due to the actions of enemy mobile infantry units equipped with grenade launchers and anti-tank systems.



Defense Army of Karabakh


Judging by the losses in the tanks, it can be assumed that the AOK brought to the battlefield more than 200 tanks of the T-72 family in versions: T-72A / B / AK / AV. After the end of the fighting, for example in the Shushi region in November, Armenian tanks were still operating, but in small numbers. It is assumed that the Armenian armored forces were practically destroyed.

The means of destruction were drones, aerial ammunition, ATGM Spike, artillery shells, and so on. Many combat vehicles, slightly damaged or even in working order, were abandoned on the battlefield or at military bases. To date, it is known about the loss of at least 210-220 tanks, including 80 abandoned (35-40%).

We do not know the reasons for such a mass scale - this could be caused by a drop in the morale of tankers, but also by problems with logistics, for example, a lack of ammunition or fuel

- writes the Polish press.

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136 comments
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  1. OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 19 December 2020 12: 47
    +3
    To be precise from the photo / video, Armenia lost 222 tanks, 83 of them as trophies, Azerbaijan lost 36 tanks.
    1. Proxima
      Proxima 19 December 2020 13: 10
      +5
      Polish "experts" have established that a cat is a cat! Bravo! good drinks No one can doubt that the tank is still a highly mobile, relatively protected firing point and, unlike the self-propelled guns, with the help of a full-turn turret and machine guns, it is able to engage in "hand-to-hand combat", to be in the thick of the battle, here and now. There is no alternative to the tank and there won't be any in the near future.
      1. Kuroneko
        Kuroneko 19 December 2020 16: 25
        +6
        Quote: Proxima
        There is no alternative to the tank and there won't be any in the near future.

        A donkey loaded with gold, alas.
        1. Albert1988
          Albert1988 20 December 2020 18: 32
          0
          Quote: Kuroneko
          A donkey loaded with gold, alas.

          This is an alternative not only to a tank, but, unfortunately, to everything in general ...
  2. Doccor18
    Doccor18 19 December 2020 12: 54
    +2
    Tanks have proven their classic role ...

    Did you talk about the opposite?
    No matter how they doubt the tanks, their expediency in modern conditions, but so far the ground forces do not have a platform that is more protected and has such strong firepower than a tank ...
    1. Professor
      Professor 19 December 2020 13: 17
      -11%
      Quote: Doccor18
      Did you talk about the opposite?

      I spoke and I continue to speak. https://topwar.ru/9529-tank-umer-da-zdravstvuet-tank.html

      The war in Karabakh once again proved that tanks are atavisms and suicide tankers.




      1. tralflot1832
        tralflot1832 19 December 2020 13: 26
        +10
        Even the tankers on the Merkavas, or does it not concern them?
        1. Professor
          Professor 19 December 2020 13: 32
          0
          Quote: tralflot1832
          Even the tankers on the Merkavas, or does it not concern them?

          There are only idiots that cannot be penetrated, not tanks. Regarding the Merkava, Tsakhal significantly reduced the number of armored brigades, stopped the development of the Merkava line, realizing the realities of the modern battlefield.
          1. Eugene-Eugene
            19 December 2020 13: 35
            +5
            yeah, stopped by creating KAZ
            1. Professor
              Professor 19 December 2020 13: 55
              +3
              Quote: Eugene-Eugene
              yeah, stopped by creating KAZ

              Precisely stopped fellow ... KAZ was created not only for tanks, but for armored vehicles in general, including light armored vehicles.
              1. Eugene-Eugene
                19 December 2020 14: 02
                +4
                Then let all the Merkavka under the knife, chase Hezbollah on electric vehicles.
                1. Professor
                  Professor 19 December 2020 14: 10
                  +3
                  Quote: Eugene-Eugene
                  Then let all the Merkavka under the knife, chase Hezbollah on electric vehicles.

                  So they are allowed in. And chasing terrorists in tanks is useless.
                  1. common man
                    common man 19 December 2020 15: 02
                    +7
                    Quote: Professor
                    So they are allowed.

                    Judging by the picture, you cut the tanks in the same way as the Americans from START, who fell under the restrictions in their time. In which case, maximum a week and all this "scrap" will be in service.
                    1. Professor
                      Professor 19 December 2020 17: 08
                      +1
                      Quote: man in the street
                      Quote: Professor
                      So they are allowed.

                      Judging by the picture, you cut the tanks in the same way as the Americans from START, who fell under the restrictions in their time. In which case, maximum a week and all this "scrap" will be in service.

                      How will he be in the ranks? Where will spldats and officers come from? Who will fight them?
                      1. common man
                        common man 20 December 2020 06: 45
                        +3
                        No reservists? Don't be ridiculous, all armies have weapons in storage.
                      2. Professor
                        Professor 20 December 2020 20: 08
                        0
                        Quote: man in the street
                        No reservists? Don't be ridiculous, all armies have weapons in storage.

                        There are no reservists serving on Merkava-1.
        2. tralflot1832
          tralflot1832 19 December 2020 13: 53
          +3
          Or maybe this is due to the fact that you have made peace with everyone in a circle, and the tank rak has become redundant for you, and all the free money for development is what flies. Yes, you have a stray for the Arabs.
          1. Professor
            Professor 19 December 2020 13: 57
            -1
            Quote: tralflot1832
            Or maybe this is due to the fact that you have made peace with everyone in a circle, and the tank rak has become redundant for you, and all the free money for development is what flies. Yes, you have a stray for the Arabs.

            Of course not. In peacetime, much more attention and money is paid to weapons. They just realized that tanks, carts, battleships are the past. A tank with a price of 10 greens (Armatu for example) will destroy a militia with an RPG costing a couple of hundred dollars.
            1. Doccor18
              Doccor18 19 December 2020 14: 06
              +1
              Armata for example) will be destroyed by a militia with an RPG costing a couple of hundred dollars.

              Will it destroy?
              RPG for $ 200 ... laughing
              1. Professor
                Professor 19 December 2020 14: 18
                +8
                Quote: Doccor18
                Armata for example) will be destroyed by a militia with an RPG costing a couple of hundred dollars.

                Will it destroy?
                RPG for $ 200 ... laughing

                Uh-huh. It will hit the side, roof or stern and no armored caprula will save the crew.

                Quote: tralflot1832
                Do you call Natu militias? Banderlog 100500 have already destroyed Armata in Donbas, and why, if you follow your logic, the United States is transferring Abrashki to Poland? With the British, everything is clear with their Challenger, they hid on the island again.

                1. Aramats are not in service and it will not be clear. While this is a ceremonial tank and no more. If you want a "concept tank"
                2. Abrams are no longer produced.
                3. Challengers are no longer produced.

                Quote: Proxima
                Quote: Professor
                There are only idiots that cannot be penetrated, not tanks.

                Professor, you would not be bad to get a job as a host military advisor in Tsakhal tongue and believe me, the time for the existence of your state would be measured in a few years .. crying

                There are people there who are smarter than me who are able to respond quickly to the interfering realities of the modern battlefield. And so no one has yet defeated Tsakhal. We have been using what happened in Karabakh for a decade. We are on the next step.
                1. Doccor18
                  Doccor18 19 December 2020 14: 58
                  +3
                  After Slavin’s tank was hit, the battalion commander of the 52th battalion of the 401th armored brigade Guy Kabili to the Merkava Mk.4 hastened to help and, in violation of his own order, decided to shorten the path and drove along the highway. The highway was mined, and Guy's tank was blown up by a land mine containing 300-350 kg of explosives. There were 7 people in the tank (apparently, officers of the battalion's headquarters, including an artillery support officer - KASHA), a gunner - Kobi Smilg died in the explosion, the battalion commander received moderate injuries (according to another source - severe wounds). The tank turned over from the explosion, then the 3 ATGM “Baby” were fired at it, although it is unclear whether they hit the target. It should be noted that the bow was completely demolished from the mine explosion (see 3 photo below). However, 6 crew members (including the driver) survived.
                  war-tundra.livejournal.com

                  One RPG talk ...
                  1. Professor
                    Professor 19 December 2020 15: 14
                    -5
                    Quote: Doccor18
                    One RPG talk ...

                    Why is this writing? One RPG to the side and khan to the tank.
                2. 72jora72
                  72jora72 19 December 2020 15: 03
                  +8
                  It will hit the side, roof or stern and no armored caprula will save the crew.
                  At 14 in Donbass, I personally observed how 10-15 hits from RPGs flew into the "box" per battle.
                  1. Professor
                    Professor 19 December 2020 15: 26
                    -5
                    Quote: 72jora72
                    It will hit the side, roof or stern and no armored caprula will save the crew.
                    At 14 in Donbass, I personally observed how 10-15 hits from RPGs flew into the "box" per battle.

                    What RPGs? The most common shot in the world, the PG-7V, has an armor penetration of 300 mm, following the mime in terms of the prevalence of the PG-7L 500 mm. What board can handle this?
                    1. Simargl
                      Simargl 20 December 2020 12: 11
                      +1
                      Quote: Professor
                      PG-7L 500 mm. What board can handle this?
                      Let's think ...
                    2. Professor
                      Professor 20 December 2020 20: 24
                      0
                      Quote: Simargl
                      Quote: Professor
                      PG-7L 500 mm. What board can handle this?
                      Let's think ...

                      The first photo shows no chance. Will not hold the board. In the second photo, there is a chance, if not along the normal, it will fall into the weakened zones of the remote sensing.
                    3. Simargl
                      Simargl 20 December 2020 20: 35
                      +1
                      Quote: Professor
                      The first photo shows no chance.
                      Gusli, rollers, tanks, even an apron - will shoot down or activate the warhead "out of focus", which can protect the car.

                      Quote: Professor
                      will not hit the normal
                      Yeah ... there is 20 cm DZ, 60 cm harp, 5-10 cm side, but to the side the "jet" will at least defocused.

                      low from
        3. tralflot1832
          tralflot1832 19 December 2020 14: 07
          +4
          Do you call Natu militias? Banderlog 100500 have already destroyed Armata in Donbas, and why, if you follow your logic, the United States is transferring Abrashki to Poland? With the British, everything is clear with their Challenger, they hid on the island again.
        4. Proxima
          Proxima 19 December 2020 14: 46
          +7
          Quote: Professor
          A tank with a price of 10 greens (Armatu for example) will destroy a militia with an RPG costing a couple of hundred dollars.

          Continuation of the nonsense of "experts" like you, which has been going on since the 16th year of the last century, like a shell worth 6 francs destroys a tank worth 300 francs! That turns out to be the problem! sad Let's spawn thousands of RPG militias and any war against any other state will be won! Bravo! good drinks But the Nazi faustic militias don't remind you of anything?
          1. Professor
            Professor 19 December 2020 15: 27
            0
            Quote: Proxima
            Quote: Professor
            A tank with a price of 10 greens (Armatu for example) will destroy a militia with an RPG costing a couple of hundred dollars.

            Continuation of the nonsense of "experts" like you, which has been going on since the 16th year of the last century, like a shell worth 6 francs destroys a tank worth 300 francs! That turns out to be the problem! sad Let's spawn thousands of RPG militias and any war against any other state will be won! Bravo! good drinks But the Nazi faustic militias don't remind you of anything?

            What is the expert? Let's take a look at:
            1. Dynamics of the number of tanks in the RF Armed Forces.
            2. The war in Karabakh.

            Greet the tanks. wassat
            1. Simargl
              Simargl 20 December 2020 12: 15
              +1
              Quote: Professor
              Let's take a look at:
              ...
              2. The war in Karabakh.

              Greet the tanks.
              The war in Karabakh, in the Donbass is not an indicator: the use of troops is extremely limited in diversity.
        5. Doliva63
          Doliva63 19 December 2020 19: 28
          +2
          Quote: Professor
          Quote: tralflot1832
          Or maybe this is due to the fact that you have made peace with everyone in a circle, and the tank rak has become redundant for you, and all the free money for development is what flies. Yes, you have a stray for the Arabs.

          Of course not. In peacetime, much more attention and money is paid to weapons. They just realized that tanks, carts, battleships are the past. A tank with a price of 10 greens (Armatu for example) will destroy a militia with an RPG costing a couple of hundred dollars.

          It is not worth it, really, to transfer your "combat experience" to the whole world - it is large and different, and wars can also be different and completely different from your "wars".
    2. Proxima
      Proxima 19 December 2020 14: 06
      +9
      Quote: Professor
      There are only idiots that cannot be penetrated, not tanks.

      Professor, you would not be bad to get a job as a host military advisor in Tsakhal tongue and believe me, the time for the existence of your state would be measured in a few years .. crying
  • Proxima
    Proxima 19 December 2020 13: 39
    +7
    Quote: Professor
    Quote: Doccor18
    Did you talk about the opposite?

    I spoke and I continue to speak.

    The war in Karabakh once again proved that tanks are atavisms and suicide tankers.

    Such "talkers" have existed since 1916, when the first tanks appeared. How they relished that the lightly armored, hulking hulk could be easily fired from a large-caliber machine gun. You are not the first and, unfortunately, you are not the last.
    1. Professor
      Professor 19 December 2020 14: 00
      -6
      Quote: Proxima
      Quote: Professor
      Quote: Doccor18
      Did you talk about the opposite?

      I spoke and I continue to speak.

      The war in Karabakh once again proved that tanks are atavisms and suicide tankers.

      Such "talkers" have existed since 1916, when the first tanks appeared. How they relished that the lightly armored, hulking hulk could be easily fired from a large-caliber machine gun. You are not the first and, unfortunately, you are not the last.

      Uh-huh. Let's take a look at the world's LEADING tank manufacturers. The USA closed the tank factory. In Japan, France, Germany and Britain, the number of tanks is ridiculous in the hundreds and is constantly decreasing. The cavalry did not die immediately either. Even at the beginning of World War II, the Red Army tried to use cavalry in battle. In vain.
      1. Proxima
        Proxima 19 December 2020 14: 29
        +9
        Quote: Professor
        The cavalry did not die immediately either. Even at the beginning of World War II, the Red Army tried to use cavalry in battle. In vain.

        Professor, for the sake of respect for this academic title, please change your nickname !!!! Complete ignorance of the issue !! The Red Army met the Great Patriotic War with the 13th Cavalry Division, and by the end of the 41st, there were 80 of them !! The stupid Bet, unlike you, did not know about their "futility" fool And you will not believe it, the cavalry showed itself perfectly in the 45th! And in general, I have a suspicion that this nickname was given to you by another person irresponsibly. Judge for yourself, there was once a member of the forum, then he disappeared for a long time, and then YOU appeared and for a long time you have been carrying any nonsense of the level of a first-grade second-quarter student.
        1. Professor
          Professor 19 December 2020 14: 57
          -6
          Quote: Proxima
          Professor, for the sake of respect for this academic degree, please change your nickname !!!! Complete ignorance of the issue !! The Red Army met the Great Patriotic War with the 13th Cavalry Division, and by the end of the 41st, there were 80 of them !! The stupid Bet, unlike you, did not know about their "futility"

          She immediately recognized their futility by launching the cavalry to attack the tanks.

          Quote: Proxima
          And you will not believe it, the cavalry showed itself perfectly in the 45th!

          Hmm. Where did she go to the cavalry, which showed itself perfectly, and the main thing is why? I am lost in conjecture.

          Quote: Proxima
          And in general, I have a suspicion that this nickname was given to you by another person irresponsibly. Judge for yourself, there was once a member of the forum, then he disappeared for a long time, and then YOU appeared and for a long time you have been carrying any nonsense of the level of a first-grade second-quarter student.

          I have no desire to discuss my nickname.
          I disappear from time to time as I get banned. For example, another month's ban ended today.
          If you think that the use of cavalry in World War II was "excellent", then you are talking nonsense. The 6th Cavalry Division was killed in 1 day. The 36th Cavalry Division went into battle and was also immediately killed. The divisions of the other corps were not much better off.

          Meanwhile, the reduction in cavalry continued. The experience of hostilities has shown the great vulnerability of cavalry to artillery fire, tanks and enemy air strikes. Serious difficulties arose with the replenishment of its horse composition. By the end of 1943, only 26 divisions remained.

          By the end of the war, the Red Army had 26 cavalry divisions. Why are there 81 left of the 26st division? Why were they disbanded?

          In 1955, the cavalry units were finally abolished. WHY?
          1. Proxima
            Proxima 19 December 2020 15: 36
            +4
            Quote: Professor
            Quote: Proxima
            Professor, for the sake of respect for this academic degree, please change your nickname !!!! Complete ignorance of the issue !! The Red Army met the Great Patriotic War with the 13th Cavalry Division, and by the end of the 41st, there were 80 of them !! The stupid Bet, unlike you, did not know about their "futility"

            She immediately recognized their futility by launching the cavalry to attack the tanks.

            And, this is when our horsemen, out of despair, chopped off the armor of tanks with swords? belay Professor, here's a revelation for you, in the 41st not only cavalry divisions died, but also infantry and even tank divisions. Who would have thought it was true? what I recommend that you, in order not to disgrace yourself, study the issue of the specifics of the use of cavalry in World War II.
            1. Professor
              Professor 19 December 2020 16: 59
              -2
              Quote: Proxima
              Quote: Professor
              Quote: Proxima
              Professor, for the sake of respect for this academic degree, please change your nickname !!!! Complete ignorance of the issue !! The Red Army met the Great Patriotic War with the 13th Cavalry Division, and by the end of the 41st, there were 80 of them !! The stupid Bet, unlike you, did not know about their "futility"

              She immediately recognized their futility by launching the cavalry to attack the tanks.

              And, this is when our horsemen, out of despair, chopped off the armor of tanks with swords? belay Professor, here's a revelation for you, in the 41st not only cavalry divisions died, but also infantry and even tank divisions. Who would have thought it was true? what I recommend that you, in order not to disgrace yourself, study the issue of the specifics of the use of cavalry in World War II.

              The effectiveness of the cavalry is obvious.

              Quote: poquello
              Quote: Professor
              By the end of the war, the Red Army had 26 cavalry divisions. Why are there 81 left of the 26st division?

              "I am quietly talking to myself"))))))))))))))))))))

              The question is power. In your opinion, "the cavalry has shown itself excellently," so why is there 81 left of the 26st division created on Budenny's initiative (what else could he advise?)? Why did the rest REFORM? Why was the cavalry abolished altogether in 1955 if it "showed itself excellently in the 45th"? Maybe because when meeting with enemy tanks and artillery, the cavalry division died in just one day, KEP?

              Quote: poquello
              Serious difficulties arose with the replenishment of its horse composition.

              And in 1955 the horses ran out completely? wink
          2. poquello
            poquello 19 December 2020 16: 03
            +2
            Quote: Professor
            She immediately recognized their futility by launching the cavalry to attack the tanks.

            under the command of Lev Mikhailovich Dovator, a separate cavalry group was able to break through to the rear of the enemy and start moving along the rear, destroying the rear communications, headquarters, warehouses and military bases of the Germans.
            This raid on the rear of the enemy lasted about two weeks and, having gone more than a hundred kilometers, the Soviet cavalrymen were able to destroy more than two thousand enemy soldiers and officers, nine tanks, about two hundred vehicles, and also captured a large number of trophies.

            Quote: Professor
            By the end of the war, the Red Army had 26 cavalry divisions. Why are there 81 left of the 26st division?

            "I am quietly talking to myself"))))))))))))))))))))
            Quote: Professor
            Serious difficulties arose with the replenishment of its horse composition.
        2. figwam
          figwam 19 December 2020 16: 34
          +4
          Quote: Proxima
          then he disappeared for a long time, and then YOU appeared and for a long time you have been carrying all sorts of nonsense

          There are more than two of them, the service is whole, the operators change and each carries his own nonsense.
      2. mister-red
        mister-red 19 December 2020 15: 53
        +2
        Uh-huh. Let's take a look at the world's LEADING tank manufacturers. The United States closed the tank factory.

        Reading something like that, Paul Bragg always comes to mind, that same fan and propagandist of the heads. So, in his books it is written that after a certain number of days of fasting (I don't remember exactly, it seems like about a week), toxins begin to leave the body. To be more precise, toxins. So later it was scientifically proven that toxins in the body appear precisely because of a hunger strike. Or else there is a banal poisoning of the body. That is, Bragg confused the causal relationship.
        How does this relate to the topic. It's very simple. There is a reliable fact that Abrams have not been produced for a long time. In fact, somewhere in the mid-90s. This does not mean that the Americans have lost interest in tanks. Maybe yes. Or maybe not. They just released what they needed. One can only guess if they will create a new tank. While they definitely do not need it. And then it is unknown.
        1. Professor
          Professor 19 December 2020 17: 02
          -2
          Quote: mister-red
          Reading something like that, Paul Bragg always comes to mind, that same fan and propagandist of the heads. So, in his books it is written that after a certain number of days of fasting (I don't remember exactly, it seems like about a week), toxins begin to leave the body. To be more precise, toxins. So later it was scientifically proven that toxins in the body appear precisely because of a hunger strike. Or else there is a banal poisoning of the body. That is, Bragg confused the causal relationship.

          Deep.

          Quote: mister-red
          How does this relate to the topic. It's very simple. There is a reliable fact that Abrams have not been produced for a long time. In fact, somewhere in the mid-90s. This does not mean that the Americans have lost interest in tanks. Maybe yes. Or maybe not. They just released what they needed. One can only guess if they will create a new tank. While they definitely do not need it. And then it is unknown.

          Having closed production, dispersed the specialists, the Americans did NOT lose interest in tanks? Cool. good
      3. Simargl
        Simargl 20 December 2020 20: 58
        0
        Quote: Professor
        The USA closed the tank factory.
        They stamped about 10000 pieces, they are constantly being modernized, since the carcass is huge, you can hang at least 100 tons. And that's just the Abrams. I wouldn't be surprised if they make "Armata" out of it. How many M-60s they have in storage - I have no idea. At the same time, they will soon catch up with Bradley's heavy weight.
        Well, they are looking for options for the next generation tank.

        Quote: Professor
        In Japan, France, Germany and Britain, the number of tanks is ridiculous in the hundreds and is constantly decreasing.
        Nata is made so that everyone except the chief of staff does not have much weapons. Korea, Turkey tanks, just develop in spite of everyone. This is apart from any Chinas, Indies, Pakistani ...

        Quote: Professor
        The Second World Red Army tried to use cavalry in battle.
        So it was necessary against aviation, not tanks. However, it was not the tanks that "killed" the cavalry.
    2. onstar9
      onstar9 22 December 2020 04: 54
      0
      Quote: Proxima
      Such "talkers" have existed since 1916, when the first tanks appeared. How they relished that the lightly armored, hulking hulk could be easily fired from a large-caliber machine gun. You are not the first and, unfortunately, you are not the last.

      Is it possible to destroy Armata from an RPG? Tell the tankers in Armata that there might be some "RPG boys" ahead and see if they bring a coffee maker with them ...
  • Doccor18
    Doccor18 19 December 2020 14: 01
    +3
    ... but never again will it be the main weapon for ground war.
    22.12.2011

    It was 9 years ago. What changed? Nothing. There are more anti-tank weapons, they have become more perfect, but there are tanks ... They are in any army in the world. They are being built and modernized, sold and bought. Why? Because there is nothing to replace them with yet ...
    1. Professor
      Professor 19 December 2020 14: 07
      -1
      Quote: Doccor18
      ... but never again will it be the main weapon for ground war.
      22.12.2011

      It was 9 years ago. What changed? Nothing. There are more anti-tank weapons, they have become more perfect, but there are tanks ... They are in any army in the world. They are being built and modernized, sold and bought. Why? Because there is nothing to replace them with yet ...

      The number of tanks has changed. And in the smaller direction. The quantity and quality of ATGMs has changed for the better. The tanks had even less chances. For example, in a small super-local conflict in Karabakh, hundreds of tanks were lost. It is simply impossible to restore the tanks lost there. First, it is not advisable. Tanks showed themselves "in any way" Secondly, it is very expensive. Armenia will not pull.
      1. Doccor18
        Doccor18 19 December 2020 14: 20
        +5
        For example, in a small super local conflict in Karabakh, hundreds of tanks were lost ...

        Lost from whom?
        Azerbaijan? But the Azerbaijani troops were advancing, which means, logically, and their losses should be greater. And the losses are small .. The Armenians defended themselves, and lost hundreds of armored vehicles.
        So maybe it's not about tanks?
        1. Professor
          Professor 19 December 2020 17: 05
          -3
          Quote: Doccor18
          For example, in a small super local conflict in Karabakh, hundreds of tanks were lost ...

          Lost from whom?
          Azerbaijan? But the Azerbaijani troops were advancing, which means, logically, and their losses should be greater. And the losses are small .. The Armenians defended themselves, and lost hundreds of armored vehicles.
          So maybe it's not about tanks?

          It was in tanks. Tanks are easy prey, but there is not only a sect of tankers here, but also rare representatives of the sect of cavalrymen with foam at the mouth, proving the effectiveness and bright future of atavisms.
          1. Doccor18
            Doccor18 19 December 2020 17: 44
            +2
            You have an interesting position ...
            So how can a tank be replaced on the battlefield since it is "atavism"? Or are all armored vehicles outdated? And with what to leave the soldiers?
            1. Professor
              Professor 19 December 2020 18: 10
              -1
              Quote: Doccor18
              You have an interesting position ...
              So how can a tank be replaced on the battlefield since it is "atavism"? Or are all armored vehicles outdated? And with what to leave the soldiers?

              In addition to the tank, there is still a sea of ​​armored vehicles. She's not going anywhere. The development of ground drones and infantry pocket artillery is underway.
              Example. Chile has purchased over 2000 Spikes. What do you think will be the outcome of the invasion of Argentine tanks?
              1. poquello
                poquello 19 December 2020 18: 31
                +2
                Quote: Professor
                Chile has purchased over 2000 Spikes. What do you think will be the outcome of the invasion of Argentine tanks?

                ) very deplorable for Chile, if the Argentines buy anti-spike systems, as was the case with curtains against tou in Syria))))
                1. Professor
                  Professor 19 December 2020 18: 33
                  +1
                  Quote: poquello
                  Quote: Professor
                  Chile has purchased over 2000 Spikes. What do you think will be the outcome of the invasion of Argentine tanks?

                  ) very deplorable for Chile, if the Argentines buy anti-spike systems, as was the case with curtains against tou in Syria))))

                  Hmm ... What systems are these against Spikes?
                  1. poquello
                    poquello 19 December 2020 20: 44
                    +3
                    Quote: Professor
                    Quote: poquello
                    Quote: Professor
                    Chile has purchased over 2000 Spikes. What do you think will be the outcome of the invasion of Argentine tanks?

                    ) very deplorable for Chile, if the Argentines buy anti-spike systems, as was the case with curtains against tou in Syria))))

                    Hmm ... What systems are these against Spikes?

                    but who knows, these entertainers of ours, the curtain was somehow not taken into account either, but then "hlobys" and all the bourgeois ran to order trophy))))
                  2. Professor
                    Professor 20 December 2020 19: 09
                    +2
                    Quote: poquello
                    Quote: Professor
                    Quote: poquello
                    Quote: Professor
                    Chile has purchased over 2000 Spikes. What do you think will be the outcome of the invasion of Argentine tanks?

                    ) very deplorable for Chile, if the Argentines buy anti-spike systems, as was the case with curtains against tou in Syria))))

                    Hmm ... What systems are these against Spikes?

                    but who knows, these entertainers of ours, the curtain was somehow not taken into account either, but then "hlobys" and all the bourgeois ran to order trophy))))

                    Got it. Fantasy, fantasy.
                  3. onstar9
                    onstar9 22 December 2020 05: 00
                    0
                    Quote: poquello
                    Chile has purchased over 2000 Spikes. What do you think will be the outcome of the invasion of Argentine tanks?

                    ) very deplorable for Chile, if the Argentines buy anti-spike systems, as was the case with curtains against tou in Syria))))

                    Yes, if all these "Curtains, Afganites, Trophy" more or less reliably defended the tanks, so they would be "installed" on all the tanks .... And the tanks would be eternal .... Why not? The cost of these KAZ cannot be compared with the cost of a tank. Is it a pity for money? Don't you mind the tank?
                  4. poquello
                    poquello 22 December 2020 19: 42
                    0
                    Quote: onstar9
                    Quote: poquello
                    Chile has purchased over 2000 Spikes. What do you think will be the outcome of the invasion of Argentine tanks?

                    ) very deplorable for Chile, if the Argentines buy anti-spike systems, as was the case with curtains against tou in Syria))))

                    Yes, if all these "Curtains, Afganites, Trophy" more or less reliably defended the tanks, so they would be "installed" on all the tanks .... And the tanks would be eternal .... Why not? The cost of these KAZ cannot be compared with the cost of a tank. Is it a pity for money? Don't you mind the tank?

                    Naturally, it's a pity for money, for example, a trophy is more than 10% of the price of a carrot, but it does not protect from everything, so you need to fence something else, so it turns out that the armata is worth a lot
  • carstorm 11
    carstorm 11 19 December 2020 14: 19
    +2
    in your theater of operations, the presence of a couple of thousand tanks is an atavism and a complete nightmare. and the reduction was simply inevitable. and it goes exactly according to the quantitative indicator. there are too many of them. You will not remove the role of tanks in your own army for another 50 years, at least do not release any drones. where you will need to make a breakthrough in any area, you cannot do without them in any case.
    1. Professor
      Professor 19 December 2020 17: 05
      -2
      Quote: carstorm 11
      in your theater of operations, the presence of a couple of thousand tanks is an atavism and a complete nightmare. and the reduction was simply inevitable. and it goes exactly according to the quantitative indicator. there are too many of them. You will not remove the role of tanks in your own army for another 50 years, at least do not release any drones. where you will need to make a breakthrough in any area, you cannot do without them in any case.

      For example, how the Armenians broke through in Karabakh. Show video?
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 19 December 2020 19: 42
        +3
        Quote: Professor
        Quote: carstorm 11
        in your theater of operations, the presence of a couple of thousand tanks is an atavism and a complete nightmare. and the reduction was simply inevitable. and it goes exactly according to the quantitative indicator. there are too many of them. You will not remove the role of tanks in your own army for another 50 years, at least do not release any drones. where you will need to make a breakthrough in any area, you cannot do without them in any case.

        For example, how the Armenians broke through in Karabakh. Show video?

        Your video will show how the Armenians conducted continuous reconnaissance on the ground and from the air, how did they conduct air and artillery preparation, how they provided fire support, how the infantry with infantry fighting vehicles walked along with the tanks, and an ACS a little behind? If not, your video is bullshit.
        1. Professor
          Professor 19 December 2020 19: 50
          +3
          Quote: Doliva63
          Your video will show how the Armenians conducted continuous reconnaissance on the ground and from the air, how did they conduct air and artillery preparation, how they provided fire support, how the infantry with infantry fighting vehicles walked along with the tanks, and an ACS a little behind? If not, your video is bullshit.

          This "bullshit" is modern war, and you are about the one that ended in 1945. The Armenians also dug trenches according to all regulations and covered the camouflage equipment with a net. Did not help. Continuous reconnaissance on the ground and from the air did not help either. The Armenian aircraft landed on the very first day and did not fly again. The artillery preparation did not help - their guns and MLRS were still on the march, and the tanks with infantry and infantry fighting vehicles, and just behind - the self-propelled guns did not even have time to turn into battle formations. Welcome to the 21st century.
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 19 December 2020 21: 03
            +1
            Quote: Professor
            The Armenians also dug trenches according to all regulations and covered camouflage equipment with a net.

            In fact, it was written many times that it was with the disguise that they had full seams.
            Quote: Professor
            Continuous reconnaissance on the ground and from the air did not help either.

            I don’t know on earth, but from the air where?
            Quote: Professor
            Welcome to the 21st century

            Is it? When one side completely controls nedo and strikes from the air, with practically no response, so it was in WWII, nothing new.
            1. Professor
              Professor 20 December 2020 19: 16
              +2
              Quote: Dart2027
              In fact, it was written many times that it was with the disguise that they had full seams.

              No. They camouflaged and dug in in accordance with the regulations, but what can you do if these camouflages go to one place for thermal imagers.

              Quote: Dart2027
              I don’t know on earth, but from the air where?

              Drones. All the same drones. They even posted videos.

              Quote: Dart2027
              Is it? When one side completely controls nedo and strikes from the air, with practically no response, so it was in WWII, nothing new.

              It is the 21st century. One side passed into this century, and the second remained in the 20th with air defense systems and trenches.

              Quote: carstorm 11
              Professor. In your understanding, modern warfare is a peep from the corner? You cities and other settlements than going to capture and clean up? War elephants?

              Approximately since Shusha was liberated.
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 20 December 2020 19: 50
                -1
                Quote: Professor
                No. They camouflaged and dug in in accordance with the statutes

                In fact, it was just about the violation of these regulations that was said, and the camouflage from thermal imagers has long been known, you cannot cover every soldier with it, but the equipment is possible.
                Quote: Professor
                They even posted videos.

                But the dominance in the sky belonged to the Azerbaijani army, so it is difficult to call continuous reconnaissance of the Armenian side.
                Quote: Professor
                It is the 21st century.

                No 20, the difference is that then there was mass and cheap aviation, but now airplanes have become expensive and they have been replaced by more compact UAVs, the essence has not changed.
                Quote: Professor
                1. Did almost it.
                2. There was no need. Now there is.

                It is when? In 1980? It was then that the modernization to "Osa-AKM" was developed.
                Quote: Professor
                This is for the whole spiritless world.

                That is, no one.
                Quote: Professor
                Of course we tried. This is what Shamanov is crying about.

                Where is it said? Specifically?
                1. Professor
                  Professor 20 December 2020 20: 33
                  0
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  In fact, it was just about the violation of these regulations that was said, and the camouflage from thermal imagers has long been known, you cannot cover every soldier with it, but the equipment is possible.

                  You can say whatever you want, but the Armenians acted according to Soviet regulations. There is no camouflage from thermal imagers yet. All these "capes" only slightly reduce the visibility, but do not mask.

                  Quote: Dart2027
                  But the dominance in the sky belonged to the Azerbaijani army, so it is difficult to call continuous reconnaissance of the Armenian side.

                  You have the wrong idea about "domination". In the sky of Karabakh, both Azerbaijani and Armenian drones felt equally free.

                  Quote: Dart2027
                  No 20, the difference is that then there was mass and cheap aviation, but now airplanes have become expensive and they have been replaced by more compact UAVs, the essence has not changed.

                  How much has changed. The planes were at the airfields (they simply did not have time to enter the battle), and all the work was done REMOTE. Welcome to the 21st century.

                  Quote: Dart2027
                  It is when? In 1980? It was then that the modernization to "Osa-AKM" was developed.

                  Barrel anti-aircraft systems did not disappear for a minute.

                  Quote: Dart2027
                  That is, no one.

                  Who should have understood what I mean.

                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Where is it said? Specifically?

                  About most cases when you had to put up. In the minority, it means they did not measure up and tried to shoot down. Only unsuccessfully.
                  1. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 21 December 2020 19: 37
                    -1
                    Quote: Professor
                    but the Armenians acted according to Soviet charters
                    This is what raises doubts. The Soviet regulations spoke about camouflage and echeloned defense and mutual cover of air defense, which was not even close.
                    Quote: Professor
                    All these "capes" only slightly reduce the visibility, but do not mask.
                    When the same tank with the engine running at maximum, yes, but just standing will no longer shine like a Christmas tree.
                    Quote: Professor
                    In the sky of Karabakh, both Azerbaijani and Armenian drones felt equally free.
                    Only the Azerbaijanis constantly saw the enemy, but the Armenians somehow not very much.
                    Quote: Professor
                    The planes were at the airfields (they simply did not have time to enter the battle), and all the work was done REMOTE.
                    And what is the difference?
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    back then there was massive and cheap aviation, but now planes have become expensive and have been replaced by more compact UAVs
                    I know that the takeoff of a modern aircraft is not the fastest process, we are talking about the fact that 80 years ago, then aircraft did the same thing that drones do now.
                    Quote: Professor
                    Barrel anti-aircraft complexes
                    But it will be somewhat strange to compare any complex of the 60s with a modern one. Let's assume that the gun itself can still serve, but the guidance system is unlikely.
                    Quote: Professor
                    Who should have understood what I mean.
                    So I wrote it - nobody.
                    Quote: Professor
                    In the minority, it means they did not measure up and tried to shoot down. Only unsuccessfully.
                    Oh really? But the Georgians themselves argued the opposite.
                    On March 18, 2008, in the airspace of Abkhazia, in the vicinity of the settlement of Primorskoe, an unmanned aerial vehicle Hermes 450 (tail number 551) belonging to the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Georgia was shot down [10].
                    On April 20, a Georgian unmanned reconnaissance aircraft was shot down over the settlement of Gagida in the Ochamchira region of Abkhazia. The Georgian side said that the UAV was shot down by a Russian MiG-29 fighter
                    https://www.newsru.co.il/world/22apr2008/drone_101.html
                    On May 4, Abkhazian air defense forces destroyed two Georgian unmanned aerial vehicles. On May 8, another UAV was shot down. According to the Deputy Minister of Defense of Abkhazia Garry Kupalba, he was armed with an air-to-air missile [15]. On May 12, two Hermes 450 UAVs were shot down
                    http://web.archive.org/web/20080517040250/http://www.gpsearch.org/news/759.html
                    So, if desired, they got confused as cute.
                  2. Professor
                    Professor 21 January 2021 07: 31
                    +1
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    This is what raises doubts. The Soviet regulations spoke about camouflage and echeloned defense and mutual cover of air defense, which was not even close.

                    This is exactly what was there. However, in the 21st century, the charters of the mid-20th century are not relevant.

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    When the same tank with the engine running at maximum, yes, but just standing will no longer shine like a Christmas tree.

                    And just a standing tank with an inoperative power plant is not a tank at all, but a target at the range.

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Only the Azerbaijanis constantly saw the enemy, but the Armenians somehow not very much.

                    And the Armenians freely watched the Azerbaijanis, just the number of drones in service with Armenia is negligible. They armed themselves according to the Soviet military manuals. Airplanes, helicopters ... It didn't help.

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    And what is the difference?

                    I do not intend to explain the difference between drones for 3 kopecks and manned aircraft for tens of millions of dollars. This is the basics. request

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    I know that the takeoff of a modern aircraft is not the fastest process, we are talking about the fact that 80 years ago, then aircraft did the same thing that drones do now.

                    Not 80 years ago, but today, drones are replacing manned aircraft, as we are all witnesses.

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    But it will be somewhat strange to compare any complex of the 60s with a modern one. Let's assume that the gun itself can still serve, but the guidance system is unlikely.

                    This is nothing more than your "IMHO".

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    So I wrote it - nobody.

                    Don't be responsible for everyone.

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Oh really? But the Georgians themselves argued the opposite.
                    On March 18, 2008, in the airspace of Abkhazia, in the vicinity of the settlement of Primorskoe, an unmanned aerial vehicle Hermes 450 (tail number 551) belonging to the Ministry of Internal Affairs of Georgia was shot down [10].
                    On April 20, a Georgian unmanned reconnaissance aircraft was shot down over the settlement of Gagida in the Ochamchira region of Abkhazia. The Georgian side said that the UAV was shot down by a Russian MiG-29 fighter
                    https://www.newsru.co.il/world/22apr2008/drone_101.html
                    On May 4, Abkhazian air defense forces destroyed two Georgian unmanned aerial vehicles. On May 8, another UAV was shot down. According to the Deputy Minister of Defense of Abkhazia Garry Kupalba, he was armed with an air-to-air missile [15]. On May 12, two Hermes 450 UAVs were shot down
                    http://web.archive.org/web/20080517040250/http://www.gpsearch.org/news/759.html
                    So, if desired, they got confused as cute.

                    Really. The Russian Foreign Ministry categorically denied the accusations of the Georgian side. Is the Russian Foreign Ministry lying?
                  3. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 21 January 2021 19: 23
                    -1
                    Quote: Professor
                    This is exactly what was there. However, in the 21st century, the charters of the mid-20th century are not relevant.
                    That's just everything that happened to read spoke of the exact opposite.
                    Quote: Professor
                    And just a standing tank with an inoperative power plant is not a tank at all, but a target at the range.
                    That is, we do not deny the fact that it can be easily disguised.
                    Quote: Professor
                    And the Armenians freely watched the Azerbaijanis, just the number of drones in service with Armenia is negligible. They armed themselves according to the Soviet military manuals. Airplanes, helicopters ... It didn't help.
                    In fact, the Azerbaijanis also armed themselves with mainly Soviet / Russian weapons and did not complain. By the way, this is exactly what the article says.
                    Quote: Professor
                    I do not intend to explain the difference between drones for 3 kopecks and manned aircraft for tens of millions of dollars. This is the basics. request

                    Quote: Professor
                    Not 80 years ago, but today, drones are replacing manned aircraft, as we are all witnesses.
                    AND? I wrote this - what aviation used to do now is UAVs. The essence is the same, just the tools are slightly different. And by the way, they also cost millions.
                    Quote: Professor
                    This is nothing more than your "IMHO".
                    That is, military equipment has not changed for so many years? Really?
                    Quote: Professor
                    Don't be responsible for everyone.
                    All normal people have long understood that this was the same circus as all stories about poisoning, etc.
                    Quote: Professor
                    Really. The Russian Foreign Ministry categorically denied the accusations of the Georgian side. Is the Russian Foreign Ministry lying?
                    He denies that the RF Armed Forces participated in this. The Abkhazians themselves coped, these are the drones.
                  4. Professor
                    Professor 23 January 2021 10: 40
                    +1
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    That's just everything that happened to read spoke of the exact opposite.

                    Not everything that they write is true.

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    That is, we do not deny the fact that it can be easily disguised.

                    We deny. Unlike you, I observed the tank with a thermal imager. The Armenians dug in the tanks according to the regulations and covered them with nets and branches according to the regulations. Did not help.

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    In fact, the Azerbaijanis also armed themselves with mainly Soviet / Russian weapons and did not complain. By the way, this is exactly what the article says.

                    Yah? MLRS Israeli. Israeli ATGM. The shooter is Israeli. Israeli SUVs. Israeli boats. Part of the air defense is Israeli. Have you forgotten anything? Oh yes, I didn't list Turkish.

                    But in Armenia, not only everything is Soviet, but also 1 to 1 statutes. The result is obvious.

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    All normal people have long understood that this was the same circus as all stories about poisoning, etc.

                    You do not have a mandate to represent "all normal people." Respond for yourself.

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    He denies that the RF Armed Forces participated in this. The Abkhazians themselves coped, these are the drones.

                    Well yes. Fighter bombers of the Abkhaz Air Force. wassat
                    Let's just blame it on the Liechtenstein Air Force, and call the video with the Russian fighter a fake. We will be consistent with your Foreign Ministry.
                  5. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 23 January 2021 12: 33
                    -1
                    Quote: Professor
                    Not everything that they write is true.
                    Well, show other sources, or will they not be?
                    Quote: Professor
                    We deny. Unlike you, I observed the tank with a thermal imager. The Armenians dug in the tanks according to the regulations and covered them with nets and branches according to the regulations. Did not help.
                    Working or Standing?
                    Quote: Professor
                    Yah? MLRS Israeli. Israeli ATGM. The shooter is Israeli. Israeli SUVs. Israeli boats. Part of the air defense is Israeli. Have you forgotten anything? Oh yes, I didn't list Turkish.
                    List of weapons and military equipment of the Land Forces of Azerbaijan
                    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Список_вооружения_и_военной_техники_Сухопутных_войск_Азербайджана
                    And MLRS and the rest are mostly non-Israeli.
                    Quote: Professor
                    You do not have a mandate to represent "all normal people." Respond for yourself.
                    And do you have? So I am responsible for myself and normal people
                    Quote: Professor
                    Well yes. Fighter bombers of the Abkhaz Air Force. wassat
                    Let's just blame it on the Liechtenstein Air Force, and call the video with the Russian fighter a fake. We will be consistent with your Foreign Ministry.
                    You are a funny person.
                    First, you declare that Russia cannot shoot down Israeli UAVs.
                    Then you declare that they were shot down not by the residents of Abkhazia, but by the Russian military.
                    Decide already?
                  6. Professor
                    Professor 23 January 2021 12: 54
                    +1
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Well, show other sources, or will they not be?

                    Repeatedly showed. Here's another:


                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Working or Standing?

                    Standing.

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    List of weapons and military equipment of the Land Forces of Azerbaijan
                    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Список_вооружения_и_военной_техники_Сухопутных_войск_Азербайджана
                    And MLRS and the rest are mostly non-Israeli.

                    Let's argue what "basic" means? request

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    And do you have? So I am responsible for myself and normal people

                    Last time, be responsible for yourself and nothing more.

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    You are a funny person.
                    First, you declare that Russia cannot shoot down Israeli UAVs.
                    Then you declare that they were shot down not by the residents of Abkhazia, but by the Russian military.
                    Decide already?

                    I decided long ago. Your Foreign Ministry looks like it too.
                  7. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 23 January 2021 16: 56
                    -1
                    Quote: Professor
                    Repeatedly showed. Here's another:

                    I looked. Almost all targets are in the middle of the field. Themselves looked
                    Quote: Professor
                    Let's argue what "basic" means? request

                    Judging by the quantity, the main ones are from Russia. And by the way, will you find a source in which the Azerbaijani military spoke negatively about weapons made in the Russian Federation / USSR?
                    Quote: Professor
                    Last time, be responsible for yourself and nothing more.
                    Pot calls the kettle black. But I have already spoken out for normal people.
                    Quote: Professor
                    I decided long ago. Your Foreign Ministry looks like it too.
                    That is, when the RF Armed Forces need it, the UAVs go astray.
                  8. Professor
                    Professor 23 January 2021 17: 09
                    +1
                    Quote: Dart2027
                    I looked. Almost all targets are in the middle of the field. Themselves looked

                    The armored vehicles are dug in and camouflaged with branches. Did it help?


                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Judging by the quantity, the main ones are from Russia. And by the way, will you find a source in which the Azerbaijani military spoke negatively about weapons made in the Russian Federation / USSR?

                    Judging by the money spent, it is no longer "main".

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    Pot calls the kettle black. But I have already spoken out for normal people.

                    You have a mandate to speak out for them. Learn to answer for yourself.

                    Quote: Dart2027
                    That is, when the RF Armed Forces need it, the UAVs go astray.

                    The Russian Foreign Ministry is lying?

                    I won't feed you anymore. The topic is closed. hi
                  9. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 23 January 2021 18: 47
                    -1
                    Quote: Professor
                    Armored vehicles are dug in and camouflaged with branches

                    And at the same time, only the blind will not see her from above. And by the way, in the video, most of this equipment was in the field.
                    Quote: Professor
                    Judging by the money spent
                    That is, the only advantage of Israeli technology is the price?
                    Quote: Professor
                    You have a mandate to speak out for them. Learn to answer for yourself.
                    Where did you get your mandate from? I am for normal people.
                    Quote: Professor
                    The Russian Foreign Ministry is lying?
                    The fact that your vaunted drones were actually shot down by militias? I don’t know, he’s probably not lying.
  • Doliva63
    Doliva63 19 December 2020 21: 21
    +4
    Quote: Professor
    Quote: Doliva63
    Your video will show how the Armenians conducted continuous reconnaissance on the ground and from the air, how did they conduct air and artillery preparation, how they provided fire support, how the infantry with infantry fighting vehicles walked along with the tanks, and an ACS a little behind? If not, your video is bullshit.

    This "bullshit" is modern war, and you are about the one that ended in 1945. The Armenians also dug trenches according to all regulations and covered the camouflage equipment with a net. Did not help. Continuous reconnaissance on the ground and from the air did not help either. The Armenian aircraft landed on the very first day and did not fly again. The artillery preparation did not help - their guns and MLRS were still on the march, and the tanks with infantry and infantry fighting vehicles, and just behind - the self-propelled guns did not even have time to turn into battle formations. Welcome to the 21st century.

    Continuous reconnaissance cannot help, I am telling you this as a former intelligence officer. It will reveal the methods of enemy counteraction, the lines, and the time. The 21st century has raised the role of intelligence to unprecedented heights, but others do not understand it. And they don't do it, alas. But the UAV operator will simply press the ON toggle switch, the normal OSNAZ (reconnaissance) has already spotted the place, etc. And if there are still a couple of dozen special forces wandering around there? And if there is a thread of Falsetto hit? Almost no chance. Whoever re-investigates whom will win. Whether in the 21st or 22nd century. Do you know why intelligence is not "the most ancient profession"? Because agents do not surrender laughing
    1. Professor
      Professor 21 January 2021 07: 33
      +1
      Quote: Doliva63
      Continuous reconnaissance cannot help, I am telling you this as a former intelligence officer. It will reveal the methods of enemy counteraction, the lines, and the time. The 21st century has raised the role of intelligence to unprecedented heights, but others do not understand it. And they don't do it, alas. But the UAV operator will simply press the ON toggle switch, the normal OSNAZ (reconnaissance) has already spotted the place, etc. And if there are still a couple of dozen special forces wandering around there? And if there is a thread of Falsetto hit? Almost no chance. Whoever re-investigates whom will win. Whether in the 21st or 22nd century. Do you know why intelligence is not "the most ancient profession"? Because agents do not surrender

      Reconnaissance is not an end, but a means. The intelligence did not help the Armenians. They had nothing to answer the Azerbaijanis with. The area work is no longer working. I've been writing about this here since 2012.
      1. Doliva63
        Doliva63 21 January 2021 17: 34
        0
        Quote: Professor
        Quote: Doliva63
        Continuous reconnaissance cannot help, I am telling you this as a former intelligence officer. It will reveal the methods of enemy counteraction, the lines, and the time. The 21st century has raised the role of intelligence to unprecedented heights, but others do not understand it. And they don't do it, alas. But the UAV operator will simply press the ON toggle switch, the normal OSNAZ (reconnaissance) has already spotted the place, etc. And if there are still a couple of dozen special forces wandering around there? And if there is a thread of Falsetto hit? Almost no chance. Whoever re-investigates whom will win. Whether in the 21st or 22nd century. Do you know why intelligence is not "the most ancient profession"? Because agents do not surrender

        Reconnaissance is not an end, but a means. The intelligence did not help the Armenians. They had nothing to answer the Azerbaijanis with. The area work is no longer working. I've been writing about this here since 2012.

        What is area work?
        1. Professor
          Professor 22 January 2021 08: 00
          0
          Quote: Doliva63
          Quote: Professor
          Quote: Doliva63
          Continuous reconnaissance cannot help, I am telling you this as a former intelligence officer. It will reveal the methods of enemy counteraction, the lines, and the time. The 21st century has raised the role of intelligence to unprecedented heights, but others do not understand it. And they don't do it, alas. But the UAV operator will simply press the ON toggle switch, the normal OSNAZ (reconnaissance) has already spotted the place, etc. And if there are still a couple of dozen special forces wandering around there? And if there is a thread of Falsetto hit? Almost no chance. Whoever re-investigates whom will win. Whether in the 21st or 22nd century. Do you know why intelligence is not "the most ancient profession"? Because agents do not surrender

          Reconnaissance is not an end, but a means. The intelligence did not help the Armenians. They had nothing to answer the Azerbaijanis with. The area work is no longer working. I've been writing about this here since 2012.

          What is area work?

          1. Doliva63
            Doliva63 22 January 2021 18: 04
            0
            Quote: Professor
            Quote: Doliva63
            Quote: Professor
            Quote: Doliva63
            Continuous reconnaissance cannot help, I am telling you this as a former intelligence officer. It will reveal the methods of enemy counteraction, the lines, and the time. The 21st century has raised the role of intelligence to unprecedented heights, but others do not understand it. And they don't do it, alas. But the UAV operator will simply press the ON toggle switch, the normal OSNAZ (reconnaissance) has already spotted the place, etc. And if there are still a couple of dozen special forces wandering around there? And if there is a thread of Falsetto hit? Almost no chance. Whoever re-investigates whom will win. Whether in the 21st or 22nd century. Do you know why intelligence is not "the most ancient profession"? Because agents do not surrender

            Reconnaissance is not an end, but a means. The intelligence did not help the Armenians. They had nothing to answer the Azerbaijanis with. The area work is no longer working. I've been writing about this here since 2012.

            What is area work?


            Um, I thought we were talking about intelligence laughing Why argue then? And the Armenians simply did not have any intelligence. Where does exploration start? From when, for what purposes and by what means a potential adversary can start a war. But, probably, it was simply unprofitable for the Armenians to conduct intelligence - I cannot imagine otherwise.
          2. Professor
            Professor 23 January 2021 10: 43
            +1
            Quote: Doliva63
            Um, I thought we were talking about intelligence. Why argue then? And the Armenians simply did not have any intelligence.

            Was. Videos from their drones are freely available. Also a photo of the RTR complexes.

            Quote: Doliva63
            Where does exploration start? From when, for what purposes and by what means a potential adversary can start a war. But, probably, it was simply unprofitable for the Armenians to conduct reconnaissance - I cannot imagine otherwise.

            The Armenians knew all this. They were shown in 2016 what the next phase of the conflict will look like. However, Armenians are "tough" and "can easily cope with Azerbaijanis thanks to their special Armenian spirit."
          3. Doliva63
            Doliva63 23 January 2021 17: 51
            0
            Quote: Professor
            Quote: Doliva63
            Um, I thought we were talking about intelligence. Why argue then? And the Armenians simply did not have any intelligence.

            Was. Videos from their drones are freely available. Also a photo of the RTR complexes.

            Quote: Doliva63
            Where does exploration start? From when, for what purposes and by what means a potential adversary can start a war. But, probably, it was simply unprofitable for the Armenians to conduct reconnaissance - I cannot imagine otherwise.

            The Armenians knew all this. They were shown in 2016 what the next phase of the conflict will look like. However, Armenians are "tough" and "can easily cope with Azerbaijanis thanks to their special Armenian spirit."

            Well, that is, as I suggested, Armenia was led to this collapse of its policies.
  • carstorm 11
    carstorm 11 20 December 2020 01: 26
    +1
    Professor. In your understanding, modern warfare is a peep from the corner? You cities and other settlements than going to capture and clean up? War elephants?
    1. Professor
      Professor 21 January 2021 07: 35
      +1
      Quote: carstorm 11
      Professor. In your understanding, modern warfare is a peep from the corner? You cities and other settlements than going to capture and clean up? War elephants?

      It was pew-pew from around the corner. There is no need to take cities. They themselves will surrender when there is famine. Cut off communications and be patient.
      1. carstorm 11
        carstorm 11 22 January 2021 10: 09
        0
        Yes brave. Mosul apparently sawed piu piu. Something like that, they did not run to give up. There is no need to take cities ... the bad thing is that we are storming the Americans ...
        1. Professor
          Professor 22 January 2021 10: 12
          0
          Quote: carstorm 11
          Yes brave. Mosul apparently sawed piu piu. Something like that, they did not run to give up. There is no need to take cities ... the bad thing is that we are storming the Americans ...

          Note, it was not me, it was you who said what you are.
          1. carstorm 11
            carstorm 11 22 January 2021 13: 03
            0
            And not only we is in a hurry to notice.
  • Sergg
    Sergg 19 December 2020 12: 55
    -1
    Drones can only be effectively used against banana republics such as Nagorno-Karabakh. With the modern countermeasures in service with Russia, drones are useless flying toys. But tanks, multiple launch rocket systems will be extremely in demand in any war.
    1. Alexfly
      Alexfly 19 December 2020 13: 08
      +3
      I don’t know whether exercises with simulated attacks of guided, barrage BPs or drones are being conducted in the Russian Armed Forces, so as to categorically declare ...
    2. Professor
      Professor 19 December 2020 13: 25
      -4
      Quote: Sergg
      Drones can only be effectively used against banana republics such as Nagorno-Karabakh.

      In your opinion Russia is a banana republic ??
      "In the same Abkhaz direction, Georgian drones were regularly flying over the positions of our troops, and in most cases we had to put up with this. These Israeli-made Hermes UAVs circled for hours with impunity over the paratroopers' camp, because the military air defense systems" did not take them " : ZU-23 anti-aircraft guns did not finish shooting, and MANPADS missiles did not fly due to insufficient thermal radiation from drones.
      AFTER THE FORCE TO PEACE

      Andrey LUNYOV, Konstantin RASCHEPKIN, Krasnaya Zvezda. Photo by Konstantin RASCHEPKIN and Viktor Pyatkov.

      http://old.redstar.ru/2008/12/02_12/1_03.html

      Quote: Sergg
      With the modern countermeasures in service with Russia, drones are useless flying toys.

      We observed the helplessness of the Shells, Bukov, Os, S-300, the most modern Tori, and even all sorts of small things. What wunderwaffe are you talking about now?

      Quote: Sergg
      But tanks, multiple launch rocket systems will be extremely in demand in any war.

      They are already in demand ... GOALS. fellow And so it will be in the future.
      1. poquello
        poquello 19 December 2020 13: 36
        +2
        Quote: Professor
        because the military air defense systems "did not take" them: the ZU-23 anti-aircraft guns did not finish shooting, and the MANPADS missiles did not fly

        found, damn it, "memoirs",)))))))))))))), they were calmly shot down from the planes when necessary
        1. Professor
          Professor 19 December 2020 14: 02
          -3
          Quote: poquello
          Quote: Professor
          because the military air defense systems "did not take" them: the ZU-23 anti-aircraft guns did not finish shooting, and the MANPADS missiles did not fly

          found, damn it, "memoirs",)))))))))))))), they were calmly shot down from the planes when necessary

          They did not shoot down This time.
          Since 2008, not much has changed in your weapons. These are two.
          It’s your luck that the Georgian drones were reconnaissance, not strike. This is Three.
          1. poquello
            poquello 19 December 2020 14: 04
            +3
            Quote: Professor
            They did not shoot down This time.

            do not drive, knocked down and easily
            1. Professor
              Professor 19 December 2020 14: 08
              +2
              Quote: poquello
              Quote: Professor
              They did not shoot down This time.

              do not drive, knocked down and easily

              Documents in the studio. Especially about "easy".
              1. poquello
                poquello 19 December 2020 14: 12
                +2
                Quote: Professor
                Quote: poquello
                Quote: Professor
                They did not shoot down This time.

                do not drive, knocked down and easily

                Documents in the studio. Especially about "easy".

                That is, theoretically, the Hermes 450 UAV could record the launch of the rocket that shot it down, and given the high-speed data transmission channel between the device and the control center, the Georgian military could indeed record the moment of destruction of their device. Just which plane launched the rocket? According to David Nairashvili, the camera recorded an unmarked fighter firing a rocket in the direction of the reconnaissance aircraft. Why, then, it is the MiG-29, and not the Su-25, for example, or the L-39, or some other combat aircraft?
                1. Professor
                  Professor 19 December 2020 14: 25
                  -1
                  Quote: poquello
                  That is, theoretically, the Hermes 450 UAV could record the launch of the rocket that shot it down, and given the high-speed data transmission channel between the device and the control center, the Georgian military could indeed record the moment of destruction of their device. Just which plane launched the rocket? According to David Nairashvili, the camera recorded an unmarked fighter firing a rocket in the direction of the reconnaissance aircraft. Why, then, it is the MiG-29, and not the Su-25, for example, or the L-39, or some other combat aircraft?

                  The Russian Foreign Ministry denied Tbilisi's claims that the Georgian unmanned aircraft was shot down by a Russian fighter jet.
                  https://m-free.gazeta.ru/news/lenta/2008/04/25/n_1211532.shtml
                  1. The Russian Foreign Ministry is lying?
                  2. Where about "easy"?
                  1. poquello
                    poquello 19 December 2020 14: 47
                    +1
                    Quote: Professor
                    1. The Russian Foreign Ministry is lying?

                    firstly - "lied" because the events of bygone days,
                    secondly - violet, maybe Abkhazian l39
                    Quote: Professor
                    2. Where about "easy"?

                    ? so not the only one, why should I collect them?, or search for conclusions of flyers on low-speed UAVs? - were somewhere, the head does not think?
                    1. Professor
                      Professor 19 December 2020 15: 10
                      0
                      Quote: poquello
                      firstly - "lied" because the events of bygone days,
                      secondly - violet, maybe Abkhazian l39

                      The Russian Foreign Ministry never lies. Do not slander him. Abkhazia did not have aviation and does not.

                      Quote: poquello

                      ? so not the only one, why should I collect them?, or search for conclusions of flyers on low-speed UAVs? - were somewhere, the head does not think?

                      Where about "easy"?
                      1. poquello
                        poquello 19 December 2020 15: 58
                        +2
                        Quote: Professor
                        The Russian Foreign Ministry never lies. Do not slander him. Abkhazia did not have aviation and does not.

                        in this case, you are lying, you smoke the same Wikipedia at least))))
                        Quote: Professor
                        Where about "easy"?

                        what about "easy"?
                      2. Professor
                        Professor 19 December 2020 18: 12
                        +1
                        Quote: poquello
                        in this case, you are lying, you smoke the same Wikipedia at least))))

                        No. Either you are lying or the Russian Foreign Ministry announced that the video of the shooting down of the Georgian drone is a fake.

                        Quote: poquello
                        what about "easy"?

                        Quote: poquello
                        do not drive, knocked down and easily

                        Where was it "easy" to shoot down? Documents in the studio.
                      3. poquello
                        poquello 19 December 2020 18: 35
                        +2
                        Quote: Professor
                        No. Lying or you

                        I already said - go to Wikipedia, Abkhazia then had several l39
                        Quote: Professor
                        Where was it "easy" to shoot down? Documents in the studio.

                        so there they shot down, from planes))))))))))))))))
                      4. Professor
                        Professor 19 December 2020 18: 55
                        +1
                        Quote: poquello
                        I already said - go to Wikipedia, Abkhazia then had several l39

                        Thank you for not being sent to Google.

                        Quote: poquello
                        so there they shot down, from planes))))))))))))))))

                        The Russian Foreign Ministry claims the opposite. Who is lying, you or the Russian Foreign Ministry?
                      5. poquello
                        poquello 19 December 2020 20: 36
                        +2
                        Quote: Professor
                        The Russian Foreign Ministry claims the opposite. Who is lying, you or the Russian Foreign Ministry?

                        but why did you stick, there was not one of them
                        Yesterday, May 4, Russian agencies, citing the Ministry of Defense of the unrecognized Republic of Abkhazia, reported that Abkhazian air defenses had shot down two more Georgian unmanned aerial vehicles patrolling the Abkhaz border area.
  • Dart2027
    Dart2027 19 December 2020 14: 22
    +4
    Quote: Professor
    http://old.redstar.ru/2008/12/02_12/1_03.html
    Something the quote is a little inaccurate
    In the same Abkhaz direction, Israeli-made Georgian UAVs were regularly flying over the positions of our troops. And in most cases we had to put up with it. To shoot down these drones with the same Buk anti-aircraft missile system is too expensive, and the Strela portable anti-aircraft missile system does not "capture" it. The thermal radiation emanating from such a drone is too small for a thermal imager on this MANPADS. Well, the air defense means of airborne units - ZU-23 - were simply not enough for UAVs flying at an altitude of about 3.000 meters.
    Why lie, then.
    1. Professor
      Professor 19 December 2020 14: 30
      +1
      Quote: Dart2027
      Why lie, then.

      I took the quote from my old link from here:
      Magazine for special forces "Brother" - Interlocutor: Vladimir Shamanov: "Sharpen the army structure for today's wars"
      "In the same Abkhaz direction, Georgian drones were regularly flying over the positions of our troops, and in most cases we had to put up with this. These Israeli-made Hermes UAVs circled for hours with impunity over the paratroopers' camp, because the military air defense systems" did not take them " : ZU-23 anti-aircraft guns did not finish shooting, and MANPADS missiles did not fly due to insufficient thermal radiation from drones.

      http://217.28.76.157:29920/cgi-bin/irbis64r_01/cgiirbis_64.exe?Z21ID=&I21DBN=STATI&P21DBN=STATI&S21STN=1&S21REF=10&S21FMT=fullwebr&C21COM=S&S21CNR=&S21P01=0&S21P02=1&S21P03=A=&S21STR=%D0%A8%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2,%20%D0%92%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%20%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87

      The essence does not change:"And in most cases we had to put up with it."
      1. Dart2027
        Dart2027 19 December 2020 15: 23
        +1
        Quote: Professor
        The essence does not change

        There was no need to spend expensive missiles, so they put up.
        And the ZU-23 is the 60s.
        1. Professor
          Professor 19 December 2020 17: 56
          +1
          Quote: Dart2027
          Quote: Professor
          The essence does not change

          There was no need to spend expensive missiles, so they put up.
          And the ZU-23 is the 60s.

          It is precisely these anti-aircraft systems that are most effective against such threats.

          Is not a fact. that the GOS Buka would have captured them. This is not a passenger Boeing.
          By the way, there was nothing in the original interview about Buki, and for good reason. And it is not correct to talk about the price of the interceptor missile. It is necessary to compare the price of the interceptor with the cost of the prevented damage. But even if you compare, Hermes is more expensive than the 9M38 rocket. so the Red Star was wise. request
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 19 December 2020 19: 07
            0
            Quote: Professor
            These anti-aircraft systems are the most effective against such threats.

            Those that were produced 80 years ago? Exactly?
            Quote: Professor
            This is not a passenger Boeing.

            Yes, yes, yes, for how many years they have been trying to prove it, but it just doesn't work out very well.
            Quote: Professor
            It is necessary to compare the price of the interceptor with the cost of the prevented damage. But even if you compare, Hermes is more expensive than the 9M38 rocket.

            And that this "Hermes" attacked them?
            1. Professor
              Professor 19 December 2020 19: 27
              +2
              Quote: Dart2027
              Those that were produced 80 years ago? Exactly?

              Exactly. They also beat me to 10 meters. Only the LMS should be adapted to them.

              Quote: Dart2027
              Yes, yes, yes, for how many years they have been trying to prove it, but it just doesn't work out very well.

              The sane have already proved everything, and those who refused to go do not need any documents.

              Quote: Dart2027
              And that this "Hermes" attacked them?

              And why did they try to shoot down? And to no avail.
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 19 December 2020 21: 09
                0
                Quote: Professor

                Exactly. They also beat me to 10 meters. Only the LMS should be adapted to them.

                But no one did it and it was exactly a product that was 80-70 years old.
                Quote: Professor
                The sane have already proven everything
                Who is this for?
                Quote: Professor
                Why did they try to shoot down?

                What did you try? The article clearly states that it was considered inexpedient to spend expensive missiles, and cheap guns initially did not have the necessary performance characteristics, but nothing is said about attempts to shoot them down.
                1. Professor
                  Professor 20 December 2020 19: 20
                  +1
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  But no one did it and it was exactly a product that was 80-70 years old.

                  1. Did almost it.
                  2. There was no need. Now there is.

                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Who is this for?

                  This is for the whole spiritless world.

                  Quote: Dart2027
                  What did you try? The article clearly states that it was considered inexpedient to spend expensive missiles, and cheap guns initially did not have the necessary performance characteristics, but nothing is said about attempts to shoot them down.

                  Of course we tried. This is what Shamanov is crying about.
  • vlad.baryatinsky
    vlad.baryatinsky 19 December 2020 15: 14
    +2
    Quote: Professor
    We observed the helplessness of the Armor, Bukov, Os, S-300, the most modern Tori and even all sorts of small things

    Shalom!
    Would you be so kind as to explain Azerbaijan's losses in the UAV, if, according to your modern air defense (which I agree with), cannot neutralize the threat.
    Thank you.
    1. Professor
      Professor 19 December 2020 18: 05
      +3
      Quote: vlad.baryatinsky
      Quote: Professor
      We observed the helplessness of the Armor, Bukov, Os, S-300, the most modern Tori and even all sorts of small things

      Shalom!
      Would you be so kind as to explain Azerbaijan's losses in the UAV, if, according to your modern air defense (which I agree with), cannot neutralize the threat.
      Thank you.

      1. Drones are consumables. It's like talking about the loss of shells when artillery fire at enemy positions.
      2. Losses of drones are negligible. For example, there were no losses of medium and heavy drones, although in theory they are the easiest to shoot down. In total, Azerbaijan lost 25 drones, including 11 Harop kamikaze and 3 Raphael kamikaze. Moreover, some of the drones fell by themselves. For example, one in Georgia. In total, the Armenians shot down only 10 drones.
      3. Azerbaijan has drones and Armenia no longer has air defense.
      1. vlad.baryatinsky
        vlad.baryatinsky 19 December 2020 23: 31
        +1
        Quote: Professor
        1. Drones are consumables. It's like talking about the loss of shells when artillery fire at enemy positions.

        I agree.
        I have not questioned the fast liquidity.
        Quote: Professor
        2. Losses of drones are negligible. For example, there were no losses of medium and heavy drones, although in theory they are the easiest to shoot down. In total, Azerbaijan lost 25 drones, including 11 Harop kamikaze and 3 Raphael kamikaze. Moreover, some of the drones fell by themselves. For example, one in Georgia. In total, the Armenians shot down only 10 drones

        I'm familiar with the statistics of losses.
        Thank you for refreshing your memory.
        Quote: Professor
        3. Azerbaijan has drones and Armenia no longer has air defense.

        And I know that.
        My (?), Was how in your opinion the Armenians managed to shoot down a certain number of drones.
        Here is my interest.
        Considering that there is no effective confrontation at the moment.
        It should be borne in mind that the operators' booths are located tens and sometimes hundreds of kilometers from the coverage area.
        1. Professor
          Professor 20 December 2020 19: 27
          +1
          Quote: vlad.baryatinsky
          And I know that.
          My (?), Was how in your opinion the Armenians managed to shoot down a certain number of drones.
          Here is my interest.

          A dozen drones in a month and a half of intensive use? You don't need a lot of intelligence. The same Shilki could have shot down more.

          Quote: vlad.baryatinsky
          Considering that there is no effective confrontation at the moment.
          It should be borne in mind that the operators' booths are located tens and sometimes hundreds of kilometers from the coverage area.

          It makes no sense to chase the booths, although there are good luck.

          1. vlad.baryatinsky
            vlad.baryatinsky 22 December 2020 22: 10
            0
            Thank you!
  • silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 19 December 2020 12: 56
    +3
    the tank does not need to prove anything) ... it always has its place on the battlefield)) ... but the command needs ... it must understand how to use weapons and equipment ... and in general understand what a battle is). .. and a man in battle ...
  • knn54
    knn54 19 December 2020 13: 08
    +5
    The Azerbaijani Armed Forces have prepared more thoroughly. During the battles, they skillfully improvised. Well, military intelligence was at its best.
    1. Vladimir_2U
      Vladimir_2U 19 December 2020 13: 10
      0
      Quote: knn54
      During the battles they skillfully improvised

      Are they themselves? But they were not badly trained.
  • tralflot1832
    tralflot1832 19 December 2020 13: 24
    +1
    For whom the air, for that and the battlefield.
    1. Doliva63
      Doliva63 19 December 2020 19: 49
      +2
      Quote: tralflot1832
      For whom the air, for that and the battlefield.

      It is clear that combined arms combat is not studied at the trawl fleet. laughing
      1. tralflot1832
        tralflot1832 19 December 2020 19: 53
        +1
        As if he served in the army, the first exercises West 81, the earth trembled not only from tanks, but from the barrage in front and the aviation processing the leading edge.
        1. Doliva63
          Doliva63 19 December 2020 21: 24
          +2
          Quote: tralflot1832
          As if he served in the army, the first exercises West 81, the earth trembled not only from tanks, but from the barrage in front and the aviation processing the leading edge.

          Where did the thoughts come from - for whom the air, for that the battlefield?
          1. tralflot1832
            tralflot1832 19 December 2020 21: 44
            +1
            Yes, here I see a lot of adherents of all kinds of UAVs. To drive them off the air than to drive tanks then, they rather drive everyone. In my time, NATO had many times more helicopters, but this issue was resolved. After 4 days, Bonn was to be taken, so to speak plan A. Yes, and in Syria, ours practiced, and the front of the Babakhs' offensive was comparable to Nagorno-Karabakh.
            1. Doliva63
              Doliva63 20 December 2020 07: 54
              +3
              Taking into account the speed of the T-80 on the Autobahn, 4 days for Bonn is too much! laughing
              1. tralflot1832
                tralflot1832 20 December 2020 10: 03
                -1
                So plan A took into account that it was not civilians who would go to meet us in Mercedes with flowers and red sickle flags and jewelery in trunks, but something else. But according to plan B, we had to roll back. laughing I don’t know who came up with the idea that we will be at Lohmansche in three days? hi drinks good
                1. Doliva63
                  Doliva63 20 December 2020 19: 35
                  +1
                  Quote: tralflot1832
                  So plan A took into account that it was not civilians who would go to meet us in Mercedes with flowers and red sickle flags and jewelery in trunks, but something else. But according to plan B, we had to roll back. laughing I don’t know who came up with the idea that we will be at Lohmansche in three days? hi drinks good

                  Interesting. In my time, the preemptive strike plan was the basis. My company, for example, had the task of blocking the company of the 75th US regiment in West Berlin in their garrison - that is, before they were alerted or at the time of alarm. And about 3 days to the English Channel - this was on their TV then they said laughing
                  1. tralflot1832
                    tralflot1832 20 December 2020 20: 23
                    -1
                    It was a long time ago, I don’t remember the details!, We were the second echelon of pearls, fortunately there was something to shove. Everything was the most modern at first in the GSVG. Starting with the T80 and Tornadoes, and now it is no longer a secret there were medium-range missile silos. so important. Plan A for a week, the end point of the Channel was definitely not. Maybe the paratroopers were locked up, they were not officially there, they should have taken port structures on the coast of the North Sea. And there was a plan B with a retreat with battles, if NATO first starts.
              2. The comment was deleted.
                1. Doliva63
                  Doliva63 20 December 2020 19: 29
                  +1
                  Quote: Alexander K_2
                  You don't take into account whether the tanks will be able to leave the railway platforms, or maybe like in Baku at the parade? soldier

                  Excuse me, is that you for me? About the GSVG? Well, first of all - as long as they can. Sometimes it was necessary to go on thirty platforms in order to move out from the end - no one ever fell; secondly, what are these platforms for if you can jump out of the boxes directly onto the autobahn? drinks
                  1. Alexander K_2
                    Alexander K_2 20 December 2020 19: 36
                    +1
                    But you forget that the boxes are not in Germany, what autobahns you are talking about, it often happens to simple roads until you get there, even if you do capitalize on the technique in time! Let's be realistic, the tanks from the computer game and in life are a little different from each other! soldier
                    1. Doliva63
                      Doliva63 20 December 2020 19: 43
                      +1
                      Quote: Alexander K_2
                      But you forget that the boxes are not in Germany, what autobahns you are talking about, it often happens to simple roads until you get there, even if you do capitalize on the technique in time! Let's be realistic, the tanks from the computer game and in life are a little different from each other! soldier

                      I don't know about the computer game, we're talking about the GSVG, like. And yes, if you did not operate the BTT of the USSR Armed Forces, do not bother yourself with the answer drinks
                      1. Alexander K_2
                        Alexander K_2 20 December 2020 20: 05
                        0
                        So the tanks themselves do not go, they need: fuel supplies, Rem. bases, preferably mobile, autobats, ammunition supply bases, medical battalions, drug supply systems. You forget that when you were in the GSVG, someone created them for you, now at least 2 (two) states lie on the way, the distance is at least 1000 km. Even without hostilities it is 10 days. , according to the most rosy scenarios, in reality, multiply by 3 times, and this is without rest and supply. Do you hope the Russian Armed Forces will have them? soldier
                  2. tralflot1832
                    tralflot1832 20 December 2020 21: 17
                    +1
                    I honestly don't remember that the T 80 in the GSVG had rubberized caterpillars, that is, with pillows so that the autobahns would not be spoiled.
                    1. Doliva63
                      Doliva63 21 December 2020 20: 46
                      +1
                      Quote: tralflot1832
                      I honestly don't remember that the T 80 in the GSVG had rubberized caterpillars, that is, with pillows so that the autobahns would not be spoiled.

                      Yes, rubberized. But not in order not to spoil the autobahns, but not to slide on them. I remember 15 Guards TP. practiced laughing
  • rocket757
    rocket757 19 December 2020 13: 27
    +2
    This they do not know and that, and the conclusions are already ready .... strange.
  • 113262a
    113262a 19 December 2020 14: 11
    +7
    Yes, I agree with the speakers who deny tanks in the form of 72,64 and 80 of all stripes on the battlefield. In Alabino, at least play! At 14 in the Donbass, an unimaginable amount of armored vehicles burned down due to the saturation of AT with weapons from both sides. Most of it was due to the blockheads of the command, again on both sides. Both those and those of the Academy did not finish, they treated expensive equipment like consumables. In fact, by sending the crews to slaughter, under the Rapiers and ATGMs. ... Many were covered with Hail before deployment, on the march. And the lack of fire and lack of coordination of the crews also worked. UAVs have also been added to Karabakh. In this case, really are the crews of the death boxes. Alas, now very few people want to join the TANKISTS! Downed pilot syndrome also plays a role. I confirm!
  • Alexander K_2
    Alexander K_2 20 December 2020 18: 17
    0
    The role of tanks, I understand it, was demonstrated at the parade in Baku, when they were transported on trawls? soldier