Military Review

How to Lose What We Never Had

270

Crying in Ukraine



One of the most annoying refrains of modern Russian politics outside the officialdom is undoubtedly crying:

"We have lost Ukraine !!!"

And this groan comes from a variety of lips. The patriots are suffering, the fans of the USSR are tormented, and how the liberals are suffering! But have we really lost anything?

It is quite obvious that there is no point in discussing the topic in its literal reading. You can only lose what you owned or at least used. Needless to say, neither one nor the other has ever been applied to Russian-Ukrainian relations.

So we will talk about the loss of the great Russian-Ukrainian friendship declared by the mourners. And then I will try to answer a rather simple but highly politicized question:

"Was Ukraine a friendly country to us before the well-known events of 2014?"

In the depiction of suffering from lost love, until 2014, the Ukrainian government pursued at least a policy loyal to the Russian Federation, did not seek NATO membership and did not discriminate against Russian and Russian-speaking citizens. But is it?

Let's take our emotions aside and look at the facts. And the facts tell us the following - almost immediately after its inception, the Ukrainian state began to pursue an openly unfriendly policy towards Russia and the Russians. Why?

The Ukrainian political and economic elite initially had only one goal - to plunder Ukraine on their own. They categorically did not want to let strangers into this field. But Western capital did not rush to the homeland of the ancient Ukrainian people, and the purchase of Kryvorizhstal by ArchelorMittal was almost the only example of this kind. And even then, it happened only as a result of the struggle between the Ukrainian groups themselves.

But Russian capital was looking at Ukraine with great interest. And since the Moscow oligarchs were not inferior to the local ones in terms of depravity, and clearly outnumbered the local ones in terms of the amount of money, they were viewed as dangerous competitors. It is not surprising that a collective decision very quickly matured to protect their plot from colleagues because of the “curb” and to share everything ourselves. That, of course, did not exclude the desire to crawl into the pocket of any gape "partner". As one Kiev observer noted back in the late 90s:

"Pro-Russian politicians in Ukraine steal from Russian gas, and pro-Western politicians from Western loans."

Well, it would be more correct to say that they were neither pro-Russian, nor pro-Western politicians, because they were quite ready to drag both there and there. And the burglar who surrounded your apartment does not become your friend. In reality, these "friends" were looking for a reliable "cover" and almost immediately saw it in the West in general and in NATO membership in particular.

However, it was necessary to present something to the people, and the idea of ​​plundering the country by a narrow group of people was clearly not sold to the masses. The newborn state needed the meaning and purpose of its existence. The predatory elites were clearly unable to generate at least some kind of national idea, and the slogans popular during perestroika about the transformation of Ukraine into a second France very soon became simply ridiculous. And then they easily found a ready-made concept in the form of Western Ukrainian nationalism.

Muscovites


This nationalism, in fact, did not disappear anywhere even in Soviet times, only its carriers temporarily moved from caches to Lviv kitchens. And it was originally born as an ideology of flawed people looking to blame for their troubles. Naturally, the “curses of the Muscovites” were to blame. They stubbornly repeated about wonderful Ukrainians, bearers of all conceivable virtues, who were enslaved by evil savages, and not even Slavs, but some kind of Untermensch. And, of course, they deprived Ukrainians of a great European future.

And what was previously discussed in whispers in the kitchens has now spilled over into the masses. I remember very well what shock I once experienced when I learned that the fans of Dynamo Kiev were yelling in the stands back in 1989:

"Death to the Muscovites!"

Well, in the Square it has become quite a norm. Since any positive idea in the conditions of Ukraine instantly turned into absurdity, the ideologists of the Bandera movement could only fan the degree of hatred. But they themselves more than willingly moved along this path, and not without material benefit for themselves. The myth about the Ukrainians oppressed by Muscovites began to be broadcast, correspond история and from a marginal trend, nationalism quickly became the Ukrainian mainstream.

I will not retell this ideology, those interested can easily find detailed content on the Internet. I will only add that Ukrainian nationalism began to slip very quickly into Nazism, only Muscovites and the notorious "cotton wool", which is certainly below the Svidomo and cicavian Ukrainian, took the place of Jews here.

Of course, in the comments they will point out to me that it is not worth measuring the attitude of Ukrainians towards Russia by rabid nationalists. I will even be given figures showing how few voters vote for obvious Bandera supporters. But the whole world history clearly shows that society is governed not by a passive, amorphous majority, but by a well-organized, aggressive minority.

What percentage of the total population were Jacobins or Bolsheviks? Obviously insignificant. But this did not prevent them from establishing their dictatorship, suppressing much more numerous, but scattered enemies, and subjugating the masses. And the Germans in the 30s did not at all suddenly become a society of fans of the Führer: there were always not so many convinced Nazis there, but they forced everyone to march on their orders. And yes, even in the late 20s, the Nazi party had very miserable election results. But then things changed very quickly.

And now we clearly see how the Nazis in Ukraine feel confident and with impunity. They get away with it. Burn people in Odessa? Easy. Kill an unwanted writer or journalist? Even easier. Kill a man in broad daylight? Yes, easily. And no one is responsible for this, because they are strong. But not only on their own, but also with those behind their backs, providing cover and funding. And then there will still be ...

Most people are just philistines and solve their everyday problems. Politics takes them very little. And there is nothing wrong with that. After all, someone has to plow the land, sell SIM cards and improve the country's demography? But, in principle, they are not able to seriously influence the situation and can only arrange a senseless riot or a completely meaningful robbery of supermarkets. But neither one nor the other really leads nowhere.

Ukry to NATO


The masses can only become a force in the capacity of ... a crowd, guided by a well-organized minority. In 2008, someone V. Karasev, at that time an adviser to Yushchenko, spoke simply and unpretentiously on this topic:

“Ukraine's accession to NATO will in no way depend on the opinion of the population - as soon as the country's largest parties resolve all their differences, integration into the alliance will be ensured.

Perhaps someone will be surprised, but the Ukrainian authorities showed their official desire to join the North Atlantic Alliance in the first half of the 90s. They supported the expansion of the bloc to the East, strengthened cooperation, and prevented the delivery of Russian goods to Yugoslavia.

And in 2002, the supposedly pro-Russian President Kuchma signed a directive aimed at Ukraine joining NATO. And the allegedly pro-Russian Yanukovych, who was Kuchma’s prime minister, spoke importantly about the country's Euro-Atlantic prospects, even when his boss preferred to turn back a little.

There is no need to talk about the politics of Mr. Yushchenko, and everything is clear. But when Yanukovych won the election, the Kremlin cheered. It’s hard to believe that such naive people are sitting there, but this rogue was clearly betting on. And in 2010, the Kharkiv agreements were concluded on the stationing of the Russian Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol until 2042 in exchange for significant financial preferences.

But the holiday did not last long. Further, the client developed cooperation with NATO even better than his anti-Russian predecessor. In Moscow, they were indignant and reproached the partner for inconsistency. But he was just very consistent! I got what I wanted from Russia. And he moved to feed on another plot. And the same story would certainly have taken place in 2014, only Yanukovych did not have time to play this trick again ...

conclusions


So what do we have in the bottom line?

Ukraine emerged as an anti-Russian and anti-Russian project and, in principle, could not be otherwise.

Otherwise, the question would arise:

"Why is it needed at all, at least within the boundaries of 1991?"

Unable to show any real achievements, representatives of the local elite began to exploit nationalism and oppose themselves to the evil “Muscovy”. Ukrainian oligarchs have merged with nationalists in a common goal of separating Ukrainians from Russia as much as possible.

And no serious pro-Russian party could arise here, there was simply no demand for it from the ruling class. Although some were not averse to beckoning voters from the South-East with a carrot. But, once in power, they immediately forgot about their promises.

I cannot say that the policy of the Russian Federation in the Ukrainian direction inspires me. She seems completely ill-considered. As, incidentally, our entire foreign policy in general. But I, of course, judge superficially. And, perhaps, the Kremlin was driven into too narrow limits of possibilities. After all, the Western "partners" did not sit idly by.

But in any case, the result would have been the same - an openly hostile state would loom on our borders. And so ... Crimea, at least ours. It is not hard to guess that if that operation had not happened, the Maidan leadership would have long since survived from Sevastopol. The Black Sea Fleet. NATO membership would become a reality. And forced Ukrainization was previously among the priorities of the Ukrainian government ...

What did we lose then?

A friendly country? But Ukraine has never been Ukraine, only milked Russia, using the phantom pains of the Kremlin leadership.

The sympathy of the local public? Yes, please, she has always been hostile to us.

Or maybe the friendly disposition of an ordinary Ukrainian? Well, it is likely that some of these conventional citizens really began to have a negative attitude towards Russia. But what does it matter to us? The layman there never decided anything, and from his opinion we are neither hot nor cold.

И we lost not only what we never had, but what never had any real meaning.

Well, if your Ukrainian relatives hate you for political reasons, then this is exactly the loss that you should not regret.
Author:
Photos used:
https://censor.net/ru/news/3091361/
270 comments
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  1. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 10: 05
    +1
    What percentage of the total population were Jacobins or Bolsheviks?
    Here, hurt yourself, the Bolsheviks with the Natsiks, what German, what Bandera, compare? Hitler in 41, for example, wrote directly about the diametrical opposition of communists and "social-nationalists". For me, the author is a so-so analyst, at the level of National Interests, or even worse.
    1. Sahalinets
      24 December 2020 10: 39
      +43
      Have you read it carefully? The point is that a well-organized minority always imposes its will on an amorphous majority. And it doesn't matter what kind of ideas it professes.
      1. Evil Booth
        Evil Booth 24 December 2020 10: 44
        -16%
        fool and where is the US leadership role?
        1. Sahalinets
          24 December 2020 10: 46
          +26
          And they were present, of course, and I mentioned this in the article. But the point is that the ruling class of Ukraine simply needed an anti-Russian trend.
          1. Aleksandr21
            Aleksandr21 24 December 2020 11: 42
            +12
            Quote: Sahalinets
            And they were present, of course, and I mentioned this in the article. But the point is that the ruling class of Ukraine simply needed an anti-Russian trend.


            The project Ukraine - "not Russia" was certainly in the trend of national forces in Ukraine, since the collapse of the USSR, it has seriously strengthened, and due to it, Ukraine sat on 2 chairs, but how much of the Ukrainian population supported nationalism until 2014? The events of the 2010s are not such a distant past, I remember very well the plans of the GDP voiced in 2010-2012 about the creation of the Customs Union and its further development into an analogue of the EU, and Ukraine, with its 40 million consumer market, was far from the last role. There were plans for the joint production of products in shipbuilding, aircraft building, helicopter building, etc., but the United States felt the threat of the formation of such a block and struck a blow in 2014. And as a result, we lost the sales market and there was a break in industrial ties, the echoes of which affected the military-industrial complex and delivery times of products. Therefore, the losses are really great, and the most important thing is the loss in human resources (40 million people) for the EAEU market, this is a lot. And we had every chance to deploy Ukraine from the West, but something was not enough ... and as regards nationalists, Nazis and other anti-Russian guys, they were a minority, and most of the population of Ukraine had nothing to do with political processes at all, they it just didn't care, i.e. there was a family from (husband + wives + child, for example) and they were worried about quite everyday issues: salary, utility costs, food costs, etc. and they didn't care with the EU or with Russia, the main thing was that the standard of living was at the level, and with whom this business is the tenth ... unfortunately (I repeat), we did not have enough (I don’t know: resources, wisdom , courage ...) to keep Ukraine in our zone of interests. And how it happened that the US agents took over control of Ukraine (under our noses) is also a mystery ... after all, this operation was developed, obviously FOR YEARS, introduced their own people, recruited the "elite" and we just calmly looked at it ...
            1. Sahalinets
              24 December 2020 11: 45
              +15
              And the majority of Ukrainian citizens do not support nationalism even now. People are just trying to survive ...
              But they don't solve anything. As for the enormous Russian plans you listed ... why do you believe that this time they would not have thrown us?
              1. Tatyana
                Tatyana 24 December 2020 14: 05
                0
                And we have lost not only what we never had, but what never had any real meaning.

                No, we are lost! And how they lost what they once had!

                We have lost the PRIMORDLY RUSSIAN LAND together with the Russian people, which the Bolshevik-Leninists, during the formation of the USSR, transferred to the Ukrainian nationalists-Westerners in the Ukrainian SSR on the basis of the so-called. "title" of the local nat. minorities in the administrative division of the territory of the former Republic of Ingushetia.
                As a result, a geopolitical Nazi coup d'etat happened in the country with the Great Socialist Revolution. And dark.
                Russia, which historically originally developed as a state of the Russian people, absorbing other peoples under its protection and development, has turned into a state of NATIONAL MINORITIES.
                At the same time, Stalin understood the future possibility of the collapse of the Soviet country by nat. republics and was against this and advocated only not for the formation of union national republics, but only for their cultural national autonomy. But Lenin then RUSOFOBSKI still insisted on his own.

                As a result, we now have what we have, and what was laid down by the Bolsheviks during the time of the administrative-territorial formation of the USSR according to the so-called. "nationality".

                1. Tatyana
                  Tatyana 24 December 2020 14: 32
                  +4
                  Speaking about Russophobia in the former Soviet national republics, you need to understand that the roots of this Russophobia have been growing with varying success since 1917. Namely.

                  The development of Soviet Russia - the first socialist in the world. State was twofold - CONFLICT - character.
                  On the one hand, Russian people who believed in a communist. the idea of ​​the Bolshevik-Leninists, and. being the bearer of a DOMINANT, and not a small-town-outskirts national mentality, on all fronts of the public. construction really created socialism within the entire country as its entire multinational. Homeland. In principle, he had nothing left to do.
                  But at the same time, on the other hand, in the former tsarist nat. outskirts, where feudal relations and their own nat. the proletariat was absent (there were no bearers of the proletarian mentality there), power from the Bolshevik-Leninists and under their control received the petty national bourgeoisie and former local feudal lords.
                  National industry was built by the hands of Russian and Russian-speaking peoples.
                  In this case, everything that was created truly national for the years of the Council. power in the once backward tsarist nat. suburbs - it is only the local national party and Soviet bureaucracy, as well as the national creative intelligentsia that serves it (social scientists, writers, artists, etc.).
                  This nat. the party and Soviet bureaucracy and the intelligentsia objectively retained the national bourgeois-feudal mentality not only in relation to their own working people, but also in relation to those who came, in their opinion, to "hump the Russians on them" up to the time of the so-called Gorbachev "new thinking".

                  TOTAL National problems in the USSR were not only from the very beginning of Soviet power, but also had a national-bourgeois class character in relation to the Russian people. And the counter-bourgeois coup of 1991 in the USSR as a whole only raised national bourgeois deformations that had already taken place from the bottom to the surface during the construction of socialism in Russia, which the Soviet leadership tried not to publicize.
                  1. Vladimir Mashkov
                    Vladimir Mashkov 24 December 2020 22: 00
                    +3
                    The article left an ambivalent feeling. It seems that the author (judging by the text and responses) understands the topic (although in some places he is a little mistaken), but the title and conclusions completely wrong!

                    And how to understand "Ukraine emerged as an anti-Russian and anti-Russian project and, in principle, could not be otherwise?
                    What do you mean, 1991 or from antiquity? If 1991 is correct. But it was imperative to clarify this. After all, in ancient times Ukraine was Russia itself! It's not for nothing that Kiev is called the mother of Russian cities! She could not be against herself!

                    Absolutely not true and statement "We have lost not only what we never had, but what never really mattered."!
                    How did the Russian Empire not have Ukraine as part of it? Even discarding Ancient Russia, Ukraine constantly from 1654 to 1991 as part of the Russian Empire and the USSR! And how did that "have no real meaning"? Can very describe for a long time what was created by joint efforts for joint use and lead great list of these objects. But the author is famously in a few words all crossed out.

                    All Russians are divided into isolationist philistines and imperial statists. The former advocate closing, isolating and developing locked up. The second - in order to develop the country itself, to expand in breadth, returning the territory (and Ukraine and Belarus are Russian territories). Sounds like an isolationist author.
                    1. Sahalinets
                      24 December 2020 23: 21
                      -1
                      The author prefers facts to illusions. And of course we are talking about the events of our time.
                      1. Vladimir Mashkov
                        Vladimir Mashkov 25 December 2020 11: 43
                        0
                        Quote: Sahalinets
                        The author prefers facts to illusions. And of course we are talking about the events of our time.

                        Dear author! I would like an answer essentially, not an arrogant, pompous, watery reply.

                        And how do you assess the policy of isolationism? Indeed, in the ranks of its adherents, positioning themselves as Russian patriots, there are many opponents and even enemies. development Russia!

                        I don’t ask about Crimea and the Baltic states, but whose Belarus and Ukraine? Maybe they are no one at all?
                      2. Sahalinets
                        25 December 2020 11: 55
                        +2
                        Maybe just correlate your desires with opportunities? You can of course pour tons of money into B and U, but will it make sense? And isn't it better to spend them on the improvement of your own country?
                      3. Vladimir Mashkov
                        Vladimir Mashkov 25 December 2020 12: 11
                        0
                        Water again ...

                        And it is not at all necessary to "pump" money (this is a primitive view of the problem): there are many ways to get what you need without significant costs and even with a profit.
        2. New Year day
          New Year day 24 December 2020 11: 58
          +8
          Quote: Aleksandr21
          The USA felt the threat of the formation of such a bloc

          There is a book by Brzezinski "The Great Chessboard", everything is described there. It is not suddenly
          1. Bourgeois 1963
            Bourgeois 1963 24 December 2020 14: 27
            0
            Don't put a finger in Brzezinski's mouth. I personally would not put my finger down. " You are right, everything goes as written. The Turks, having given a positive impulse to the national ambitions of Azerbaijan and the Azerbaijanis living in Iran, are ready to jump from north to south of the Islamic republic, the Americans, in turn, will strike from the Persian Gulf and Iraq. In general, the era of possessed religious fanatics is coming to a natural end, let them go back to the Middle Ages so beloved by them. For thirty years after the collapse of the USSR, millions of the most active people in Ukraine and Belarus had the opportunity to personally compare the attractiveness of the Russian and Western civilizational projects. The people of Ukraine, and perhaps of Belarus, have made a choice and are already mentally included in the European civilization project. However, for Russia these two former republics of the USSR do not have any positive significance at the present position of the pieces on the chessboard. Russia is throwing resources on the thieving and helpless, but supposedly pro-Russian, groups in these formations, which in the country itself is decreasing, and which may soon be critically useful for themselves. There's more at stake. Against the background of the sixth technological order that has not yet begun in Russia and the global decrease in the world demand for carbon energy resources in the next thirty years, the process continues, which began one hundred and sixty-four years ago with the defeat in the Crimean war, when the highest peak of the development of the Russian Empire was passed.
            1. Overlock
              Overlock 24 December 2020 21: 41
              +4
              Quote: Bourgeois 1963
              millions of the most active people in Ukraine and Belarus had the opportunity to compare with their own eyes the attractiveness of the Russian and Western civilization projects. The people of Ukraine, and perhaps of Belarus, have made a choice and are already mentally included in the European civilization project.

              A modern look at the present day. The sooner the authorities understand this, the faster the illusions about the post-Soviet space will pass.
    2. Guards turn
      Guards turn 24 December 2020 11: 21
      +5
      The United States helped, the White Swan planes cut almost everything into metal. Russia has only managed to take out a few. Chernozem, round timber are being taken out, industry has been ruined and continue, although they have long gone to this, they will soon return to the past.
      1. Silhouette
        Silhouette 24 December 2020 12: 19
        -11%
        Russia cut 12 of its "swans" by autogenous ... How's that? ...
        1. Sahalinets
          24 December 2020 12: 25
          +7
          No way. This was not the case, they were cut by autogenes in Ukraine.
    3. Alien From
      Alien From 24 December 2020 12: 02
      0
      Do you see a gopher? - No ...... And he is)
  2. Boris55
    Boris55 24 December 2020 10: 46
    -9
    Quote: Sahalinets
    a well-organized minority always imposes its will on an amorphous majority

    "Everything happens in the best way in accordance with real morality
    and ethics of all participants in the process
    "
    .


    At "short distances" - this is so, but at "long" - the will of the majority wins, not declared, but true, the will of which everyone thinks. In order for the minority to remain at the top, they need to convince the majority of their righteousness. An attempt to persuade by force has the opposite effect.
    1. Sahalinets
      24 December 2020 10: 53
      +27
      This is a common misconception. The masses do not develop meanings, they are made by the minority, and then they inspire the masses.
      The VIL, which certainly cannot be reproached for political naivety, directly wrote that the proletariat cannot create a revolutionary ideology, it only wants a trade unionist program. And the revolution will be made by the party, which will instill its ideas in the workers.
      1. dorz
        dorz 24 December 2020 11: 16
        +6
        It is obvious that the post-Soviet space has long been gone. The authorities need to restore trust, clear the information field from enemy sites and characters, draw up a long-term economic plan, otherwise we will lose the country without war.
        1. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter 24 December 2020 11: 20
          +18
          Quote: dorz
          The authorities need to restore trust, clear the information field from enemy sites and characters, draw up a long-term economic plan, otherwise we will lose the country without war.

          The authorities cannot do anything of the above.
          1. Lexus
            Lexus 24 December 2020 15: 53
            +7
            Crooks and thieves can only "nabiull", Comrade. hi
        2. New Year day
          New Year day 24 December 2020 11: 22
          +9
          Quote: dorz
          It is obvious that the post-Soviet space has been gone for a long time.

          true, the last bastion is Belarus.
          1. Kisa
            Kisa 25 December 2020 02: 40
            0
            Belarusians, it will certainly fight, we will not let go of their fascist toilets to scrub ... but Ukrainians, yes, every third relative here and there ... if the football players have eaten out of the euro, we look at Ukrainians, and so on, I'm not interested in highlanders or other lumps ... and who is we are real straight such allies that already relatives ????
        3. Jager
          Jager 25 December 2020 12: 49
          +1
          What excuses are there? Either the Second World War, now crises, now sanctions, now the "dashing 90s", now covid. He has been in power for 20 years, but no breakthroughs are visible.
          Ah, Crimea ... for sure! So he would have remained Ukrainian, if not for the complete failure of the Russian policy in Ukraine, as a result of which it was necessary to urgently save military bases. The Crimea itself went directly to them as an appendage.
      2. Boris55
        Boris55 24 December 2020 11: 17
        -2
        Quote: Sahalinets
        The masses do not develop meanings, they are made by the minority, and then they inspire the masses.

        On the contrary.

        And until then, "Until the idea took possession of the masses, it is dead." first, the "populists" go to the masses and convince them of the correctness of their idea, and then the revolution.

        The thought itself is not worth anything.
        So the quote I quoted above is correct.

        By the way. All revolutions are sponsored from abroad. the locals are happy with everything and they do not want to change anything, but the people do not have the means for this. Revolutions are expensive. And as a result, all revolutions are carried out for the benefit of external forces. The people only get the donut hole.

        ps
        “Indeed, Allah does not change what is with people until they themselves change what is with them.” (Quran 13: 12)

        “... the Kingdom of God will not come in a noticeable way, and they will not say: behold, it is here, or: behold, there. For behold, the kingdom of God is within you ”(Luke 17: 20-21)
        1. New Year day
          New Year day 24 December 2020 11: 29
          +5
          Quote: Boris55
          "Until the idea takes hold of the masses, it is dead."

          Here Lenin and Boris are right! Exactly how "Idea" took possession of the masses of Soviet Ukrainians is a question! Although the answer is obvious - just like the Russians
          1. Boris55
            Boris55 24 December 2020 11: 31
            +1
            Quote: Silvestr
            how "Idea" captured the masses of Soviet Ukrainians

            Like this:



            Lace panties pulled over the head work wonders.
            1. Overlock
              Overlock 24 December 2020 21: 43
              +6
              Quote: Boris55
              Lace panties pulled over the head

              it's like a symbol! And if we consider the issue on the merits? - Standard of living, well-being
          2. Sahalinets
            24 December 2020 12: 10
            +3
            The idea was actively promoted to the masses.
        2. Essex62
          Essex62 24 December 2020 17: 32
          0
          That is, VOSR was done with money from overseas? Nonsense, there was just a unique opportunity after the February bourgeois revolution. The man from the trenches was not released and not disarmed, he used his vintar to the case. Under the leadership of the Bolsheviks. There was no other people's dough. They pulled out the backbone, established democracy, smashed the counter, funded, by the way, from across the hill.
          Boris, you're wrong laughing
      3. Evil Booth
        Evil Booth 24 December 2020 11: 33
        -9
        well, well) fresh story. over there recently in China) there were 7 children and everyone worked without land and house and things, but three were drowned because there was not enough food. of those that remained 1 then a few not families but changed the owners because there is still nothing to eat. became the head of the Chinese Communist Party of the highest level. And so even in Yus the amorphous majority also gives birth not only to fools. and oh horror! not all aristocrats give birth to geniuses. well there. By the way, recently their current general secretary wasted as a junior with a water carrier for a cake. and never dreamed of fleeing to rich Japan that they were slaughtered by tens of millions. we have such a very propaganda that they say bought a behu and a holtel Lexus? eot putin to blame escape to Canada
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 24 December 2020 19: 38
          0
          Quote: Evil Booth
          Even in Yus, the amorphous majority also gives birth not only to fools. and oh horror! not all aristocrats give birth to geniuses

          So what? The point is not who was born from whom, but that the group of an organized minority decides everything.
      4. three
        three 24 December 2020 21: 59
        0
        Again - "the masses, ideas, revolutionary ideologies ...". For revolutions and Bolshevism, yes. For the subsequent construction of socialism - no. Without going into philosophy, Lenin broke away from Marx (there are certain clear criteria) in achieving practical goals (tactical, sacrificing strategy), his infallibility was broken by the very appearance of the NEP, and this is the root of all troubles ... To feed ... You can manipulate consciousness, bring a handful of minority (majority) to power, not the point. And to feed .... The USSR overstrained itself by setting the task of the world revolution above domestic needs (which China is now avoiding, and the coexistence of communism with capitalism on the same territory is another confirmation). The Russian Federation is now taking leaps and bounds along the same path with the idea of ​​the Russian World ABOVE its internal needs. To feed ... (pensions are at the level of Zimbabwe, only a little higher there) Therefore, now, IMHO, we must think not about the Ukrainians or Belarusians, not to mention about Armenians or Georgians - you have to think about the Far East, Tatarstan, the Caucasus (except for Chechnya, they solved the problem there), Karelia. Ural. (I will not say anything about the "red belt", Moscow is naked without it) And then - for example, the New Keynesian model together with the national idea (above the national idea). And I liked the article.
        1. Jager
          Jager 25 December 2020 12: 59
          +1
          Well, it's ridiculous to rub such a world capitalist gas station with nuclear weapons. The upper classes do not care about the population.
    2. Snusmumrik
      Snusmumrik 24 December 2020 11: 01
      0
      Can I have a historical example?
      1. Sahalinets
        24 December 2020 11: 03
        +7
        Yes, I have already given them in the article. Few?
    3. Dimide
      Dimide 24 December 2020 18: 12
      -1
      Confirmation of your words "electoral revolution" in the last presidential elections in Ukraine
  3. Sling cutter
    Sling cutter 24 December 2020 10: 49
    +9
    Quote: Sahalinets
    The point is that a well-organized minority always imposes its will on an amorphous majority. And it doesn't matter what kind of ideas it professes.

    We can agree, because statistics show that the active part of the population is no more than 10%.
  4. Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 10: 52
    -1
    Quote: Sahalinets
    Have you read carefully?
    Was it possible to confine ourselves to the Jacobins, NSDAPs, Napoleon, Yeltsin in 1991, was it necessary to drag the Bolsheviks in?
    1. Sahalinets
      24 December 2020 10: 54
      +8
      Well, forgive for your favorites! laughing
      1. Vladimir_2U
        Vladimir_2U 24 December 2020 10: 58
        +2
        I apologize for National Interests. )))
  5. Civil
    Civil 24 December 2020 11: 05
    +1
    Quote: Sahalinets
    Have you read it carefully? The point is that a well-organized minority always imposes its will on an amorphous majority. And it doesn't matter what kind of ideas it professes.

    Russia is a perfect example) or Zimbabwe)
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 24 December 2020 11: 22
      +5
      Any country in the world. States, too, this summer, not the majority stooped and put all their ideas into the lives of ordinary people.
      1. Sahalinets
        24 December 2020 11: 49
        +2
        By the way, yes!
  6. tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 24 December 2020 12: 53
    0
    Quote: Sahalinets
    Have you read it carefully? The point is that a well-organized minority always imposes its will on an amorphous majority.

    Good article, everything is laid out on the shelves. I have the same opinion.
  7. Per se.
    Per se. 24 December 2020 13: 21
    +9
    Quote: Sahalinets
    Have you read carefully?
    Speech on the article, first of all, but what for we need it, this Ukraine ... This is strong! Right, I don't need the Turkish coast, and I don't need Africa ...

    Here, only, the whole southeast of Ukraine was for Russia, and our great helmsman did not recognize the referendum in the same Donbass, but recognized the Bandera elections held by the organizers of the anti-constitutional coup. There was no need to bring in troops, with a living and legitimate Yanukovych and Azarov, it was enough to tell the junta that you are nobody, and there was no way to call you. Alas, Monsieur Didier Burkhalter, it was not for nothing that he went to Moscow, where and who had the money, and what would happen if the wrong choice was made, the Kremlin was made clear.

    Now we do not need Ukraine. It seems that it is already necessary to write articles about the uselessness of Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, everything around us. It's only the Yankees who need it, but we don't. That way, you see, and everything outside the Moscow Ring Road will soon be unnecessary.
    How to Lose What We Never Had

    We had, we had a great country, we had cooperation after that, which we really need. They had and should have had national interests, where Ukraine is a red line. Simply, you have to fight for your own and your interests.
    1. Pushkar
      Pushkar 26 December 2020 14: 13
      0
      Quote: Per se.
      Now we do not need Ukraine.

      Yes . We do not need the current state of Ukraine.
      1. Bratez
        Bratez 5 January 2021 16: 27
        0
        I agree. Only as a territory, and without its western part. Or, alternatively, without the population of its western part. Let them go with their own to Canada. And we have already found someone to settle there.
  8. Hypertension
    Hypertension 24 December 2020 15: 31
    +1
    This is what I most hate in the Ukrainians, because it is their dense hypocrisy on the topic: "Muscovites starved and oppressed them." At all times and positions and attitude towards them were the most tolerant. You don't have to go far - in the USSR, there were both reasons and orders. Any social elevators were open to them. Oles Buzina wrote about this. Absolutely no obstacles, prejudices and prejudices from the Russians. Certainly not comparable with the attitude of the same Poles towards Ukrainians. But here you go - poor unfortunate offenders ...
    1. Essex62
      Essex62 24 December 2020 17: 38
      0
      So this was Soviet Ukraine, and the zapadenskie underdit gritted their teeth and hated until the collapse of the Union. I don't understand Comrade Stalin, why I didn't finish what I started.
  • Machito
    Machito 24 December 2020 10: 40
    +3
    Ukraine was already separated from Mother Russia in the form of Galicia, Kiev region, Chernigov region, and then their hetman on his knees asked the tsar-father to take him under his high hand.
    1. Sahalinets
      24 December 2020 11: 19
      +5
      In fact, the hetman initially planned to throw us. repeat
      1. New Year day
        New Year day 24 December 2020 12: 10
        +8
        Quote: Sahalinets
        In fact, the hetman initially planned to throw us.

        Khmelnitsky went to Moscow after Warsaw refused to negotiate with him
        1. Sahalinets
          24 December 2020 12: 14
          +7
          And he blackmailed him by passing under the sultan's authority.
      2. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 24 December 2020 13: 02
        +4
        Quote: Sahalinets
        In fact, the hetman initially planned to throw us.

        It is true that the hetman had a choice, Austria, Poland, Turkey, Russia. At that time, Russia was simply preferable, and Orthodoxy united. And in his son Yuri began wagging his tail until the Turks strangled him.
  • Stas157
    Stas157 24 December 2020 10: 54
    +27
    You can only lose what you owned or at least used. Needless to say, neither one nor the other has ever been applied to Russian-Ukrainian relations.

    Here's where I agree with Putin is that Ukrainians and Russians are one people. Did we own Ukraine? So this was us and our land. Now we have been divided into them and us. But personally I do not agree with this position.
    1. Glory1974
      Glory1974 24 December 2020 11: 48
      +1
      Did we own Ukraine? So this was us and our land.

      I also disagree with the author. Do we need Ukraine? And why is the countdown from 2014?
      Our land and one people for centuries. For the last 30 years we've done it all over the place, but the game isn't over.
      1. Sahalinets
        24 December 2020 13: 55
        +2
        There is nothing in the article about uselessness. There is an idea that in 2014 she was no longer ours, which means there was nothing to lose.
        1. Lexus
          Lexus 24 December 2020 15: 59
          +7
          Why is this decay of spirit? Southeast wanted to Russia. But his aspirations are none
          did not support. The "little dictator" got scared for his carcass and what his "friends" stole.
        2. Overlock
          Overlock 24 December 2020 21: 45
          +5
          Quote: Sahalinets
          There is an idea that in 2014 she was no longer ours, which means there was nothing to lose.

          but something needs to be done! Do not fight them!
          1. Icarus
            Icarus 26 December 2020 19: 41
            0
            Do not fight them!
            We must fight, but not with them, but with the regime. And the sooner, the better, yet not everyone in / in Ukraine (New Russia) has their brains reformatted. But it is desirable that they themselves attacked us, at least in a border conflict, as it was recently. It is a pity that the opportunity was missed to develop (to pursue until the destruction of the group, including beyond the cordon). But there will be such an opportunity more than once, there would be political will. But it is not there yet, and apparently it will not be under Putin.
            1. Siberian54
              Siberian54 29 December 2020 07: 56
              +1
              In the fourteenth, it was possible just to carry out a police operation and no one would really have time to utter a peep, as the Crimea showed at that time on the outskirts, most of the command would not dare to fight with the metropolis ... knocked down!) and got what it is ..
  • Jager
    Jager 25 December 2020 12: 46
    0
    Without the general support of the population, Adolf and company would never have reached heights, remaining a small, marginal party. Like the Communist Party, its program turned out to be as close and understandable to the people as possible. There has always been an order for nationalism in Ukraine.
    The causal relationships are a little confused here. In a healthy state, ANY attempt at a coup or revolution is doomed to failure.
  • apro
    apro 24 December 2020 10: 09
    +2
    First, it would be necessary to put things in order in your country ... and then talk about good Ukraine or bad.
    1. aleksejkabanets
      aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 10: 32
      +5
      Quote: apro
      First, it would be necessary to put things in order in your country ... and then talk about good Ukraine or bad.

      Judging by the minuses, you need to talk about Ukraine (USA, Geyropu, etc.), and you don't have to put things in order in your country)))))))
      1. Evil Booth
        Evil Booth 24 December 2020 10: 45
        -5
        he also forgot about ecology. and you mean the totality of reality. hi
    2. Sahalinets
      24 December 2020 10: 39
      +4
      Well, they are crying now. wink
    3. Overlock
      Overlock 24 December 2020 21: 47
      +8
      Quote: apro
      First, it would be necessary to restore order in your country.

      it is precisely because of the disorder in the house that Russia does not have an attractive image for Ukraine and Belarus. They sit at home, look at the endless reign of Putin and ask the question: Do we need this?
  • Blacksmith 55
    Blacksmith 55 24 December 2020 10: 10
    +14
    Ukraine was lost, one might say immediately after the revolution, giving it the rights of a republic.
    But at that time everyone was talking about the brotherhood of peoples, about internationalism. No one could even think about the collapse of the USSR, but they would be hidden right away somewhere in Siberia or even worse, they would just get rid of.
    1. apro
      apro 24 December 2020 10: 19
      -5
      Quote: Blacksmith 55
      giving her republican rights

      And who gave it? Who is this non-Russian character? ... but what to do with the Ukrainian parliament ... they didn’t do it .. she drew herself.
      1. max702
        max702 24 December 2020 11: 31
        +2
        Komunistenko created and supported all this as best they could .. Get to know the history of the creation of Ukraine and other republics at the expense of the primordially Russian regions and the fight against the so-called Russian chauvinism .. A Soviet man was needed, but at the expense of the Russians, all this was done and what happened we see perfectly well The USSR perished all the fraternal peoples and Russia should be in poverty and collapse with cries!
        pc: there is a site "Svidomo pkremog warehouse" where all these questions are prepared with surgical precision and mathematical scrupulousness ..
        1. apro
          apro 24 December 2020 11: 36
          -4
          Quote: max702
          Komunistenko created and supported all this as best they could ..

          Did the Russians resist? Or are they incapable of composure?
          1. max702
            max702 24 December 2020 11: 45
            +2
            Well, as if about peasant uprisings in the Russian provinces that were crushed by troops using artillery and chemical weapons, information is available, for example, about the uprising at the Izhevsk plant and many others .. It will not be superfluous to get acquainted with such information.
            1. apro
              apro 24 December 2020 11: 47
              -3
              Didn't the Russians like the Soviet power? And the whole country stood up against the Reds?
              1. max702
                max702 24 December 2020 12: 10
                -1
                We chose from different sorts of shit .. The deception was revealed and the result is now visible.
                1. apro
                  apro 24 December 2020 12: 21
                  0
                  Quote: max702
                  We chose from different types of shit ..

                  So they also chose ... well, now
                  Quote: max702
                  shit ..

                  chose what you need.
                  1. max702
                    max702 24 December 2020 13: 06
                    -3
                    Now with those years, in comparison, we live in paradise .. But you probably can't wait to return to those early times .. But this will not happen, we will not repeat the mistakes of the past ...
                    1. apro
                      apro 24 December 2020 13: 24
                      +3
                      Quote: max702
                      Now with those years, in comparison, we live in paradise ..

                      Compared to the USSR, you live below the bottom ...
                      1. max702
                        max702 24 December 2020 13: 28
                        -2
                        No higher! There is such a good film "Guest from the Future" Duc, you can look at Moscow 85g and compare it with the current one .. And other cities have changed a lot, as well as the lives of people living there .. [media = https: //m.youtube.com/playlist? list = PL2-cpkTgK12dY1vkRwmsdDB0Ut37HfE8Q] either a blind person or a paid one can not see it
                      2. apro
                        apro 24 December 2020 13: 31
                        +5
                        Quote: max702
                        either a blind person or a paid one can not see this ..

                        Blind so as not to see ... the destroyed national economy ... paid to soak about social inequality and the lack of prospects ...
                      3. max702
                        max702 24 December 2020 13: 43
                        -5
                        Where was that destroyed? We sell grain, not buy it, like sugar and butter, meat and so on, shops are bursting with everything and everyone, there is nowhere to park the car, 50 billion dollars was spent in 2019 on foreign tourism, old workers are already in the trash heaps, and we throw out plasma, people pit in comparison with the USSR has ceased ... It was not in vain that I recommended you a Guest from the future to look, and other films of those years directly show the miserable life and poverty of the population in comparison with the current one .. But you at least show whether you are blind or at work .. ...
                      4. apro
                        apro 24 December 2020 14: 02
                        +3
                        Quote: max702
                        Where was that destroyed?

                        What kind of TV do you have? Russian? And your phone is also Russian? And what kind of car do you have? And what are you wearing? Do you even know how to do with pens?
                        And your children want to live in your Russia?
                      5. max702
                        max702 24 December 2020 16: 16
                        +1
                        Yes, the Russian Samsung assembled in the suburbs and the high-screen phone is also from a Russian company .. The Largus car and the Volkswagen Passat are all made in Russia .. There are clothes in different ways, there are things from world brands, but there are also their own alloy from the company, at work, overalls and footwear from Technoavia .. All my life I work with my hands, the children live in Russia and do not plan to go somewhere .. But you can see the forelock because the state of affairs in Russia you do not know is categorical ..
                      6. apro
                        apro 24 December 2020 16: 24
                        +1
                        Quote: max702
                        But you have a forelock, because you don't know the state of affairs in Russia categorically.

                        I am Russian. I am Soviet. I know and understand the situation in the country from my workplace.
                      7. max702
                        max702 24 December 2020 16: 46
                        0
                        Doubts about this, the Russians do not say so, the construction of phrases is not that, on this you are firing, plus a complete lack of knowledge of the current realities of our country .. Yes, and dreams of returning to the USSR hint at a lot, the inhabitants of Russia only begin to live humanly and the desire to hang the collar on the neck in the form of fraternal peoples is not particularly observed, the whole train left ... Live on your own ..
            2. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 24 December 2020 17: 54
              0
              Quote: max702
              There is such a good film "Guest from the Future" so you can look at Moscow 85g and compare it with the current one .. And other cities have changed a lot

              Have you tried to compare the 85th with the 50th? And what about the 50th with the 15th?
              Quote: max702
              and other films of those years directly show the poor life and poverty of the population in comparison with the current one ..

              fool
            3. max702
              max702 25 December 2020 08: 22
              +1
              But compare with the same 50s .. And what we will see, but the same thing! Killed houses with crumbling plaster and paint, broken roads and unkempt courtyards and playgrounds .. And if in the 50s everything is clear, then why in 85 there are questions .. How is it the very heyday of the country, the capital, and everything around is shabby like in the 50s ? And now how is it written here when everything and everything is ruined nothing is being done around theft, and the same Moscow is like candy and other cities are drawn to it! You say the type of technology has changed and everything has become so beautiful? Well, well .. And like if the USSR now would be even better! By God, I doubt it, because since the 50s practically nothing has changed, why would they have improved over the years? I found the USSR and I remember everything well and childhood in queues and coupons for everything and everyone, and terrible drunkenness, and much more ... and I am simply amazed by the blindness and non-objectivity of people who idolize the USSR .. Guys, if everything was so fine, well it fell apart how's the house of cards? Today, the standard of living is really much higher and this is not only a technical civilizational progress but also a change in the management of economic management in the country .. I absolutely do not care about the fraternal peoples and republics because they perfectly showed their true colors in a difficult time for my country nothing good from them Russia and her the inhabitants did not see, but only betrayal and harm on all fronts .. Apparently it was realized and remembered not only by me .. so there will be no return to feeding like in the USSR! Live on your own!
            4. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 25 December 2020 18: 35
              0
              Quote: max702
              and everything around is shabby as in the 50s?

              And where did you see the shabby?
              Quote: max702
              because since 50s practically nothing has changed

              I have no words. fool
              Quote: max702
              childhood in queues and coupons for everything and everyone

              It is clear in what years your childhood passed.
              Quote: max702
              and the drunkenness is terrible,

              Already terrible drunkenness blossomed in the mid-90s.
              Quote: max702
              Today, the real standard of living is much higher, and this is not only technical civilizational progress, but also a change in the management of economic management in the country ..

              Have you ever seen digging through the trash heaps?
            5. max702
              max702 25 December 2020 22: 47
              0
              Well, I don’t need fairy tales, a drunk tractor driver in the village was the norm, just like a drunk worker at a factory I saw all this with my own eyes, in the 90s they drank because it smelled like a hopeless, so only the bottle saved me, I see no objections on other issues .. About garbage cans and earlier they dug as always and will dig at any level of life, but the fact that everything is shabby and pathetic, you will repeat, watch the films of those years and pay attention to this. And there were coupons for almost everything, and this was in a difficult city that worked for the defense industry from the Ministry of Medium Machine-Building, and with a very difficult and unique production, meat per kg per month for working children in the forest, and also per kg of sausage in the same way, and on certain days of the month and in a certain store .. I repeat, I remember everything well and the concept of "thrown out" with me forever because the many hours of queues in the memory of the nursery were very delayed ..
            6. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 25 December 2020 23: 01
              0
              Quote: max702
              watch films of those years

              Why, in fact? If you judge the USSR by the films, then there is nothing to talk with you about.
              Quote: max702
              on other questions, I see no objections ..

              You don't see a damn thing, blind Hugh.
            7. max702
              max702 25 December 2020 23: 07
              0
              I advise you on the films for a simple reason you can't hear the words, maybe you can believe it with your own eyes and start thinking .. Although what did I do for this job for someone else, give you whatever you want, bring all the dew of God ..
            8. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 25 December 2020 23: 11
              0
              Quote: max702
              I advise you on the films for a simple reason, the words you do not hear, you can believe it with your own eyes and start thinking ..

              Where did you see squalor there? Specifically, for example, in the Guest from the future?
              Quote: max702
              you got this job for someone else

              Yes, yes, and the State Department pays me so that I here drown for the USSR, on the collapse of which they spent trillions.
            9. max702
              max702 26 December 2020 10: 35
              0
              Well, look at the episodes when she runs around Moscow to the courtyards to the houses, to the parking lots, playgrounds, etc., by God, you’re blind, or I don’t see here, but here I wrap the fish? The houses are shabby, the roads are with holes, the curbs are sikos nakos, the playgrounds cannot be looked at without tears .. And look what now? Well, only a very hypocritical person can not see the difference .. For example, in my native small town in Udmurtia, the station was finally brought to mind and the entire adjacent territory, and as far back as I can remember from childhood through the mud and darkness, they went to it, and now it's sweet ! As well as the embankment and many other things, there is nothing to say about the roads .. And this is in a very difficult city working for the defense industry and the medium-sized machine .. What have not been done before? I remember everything perfectly ..
            10. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 26 December 2020 10: 51
              0
              Quote: max702
              The houses are shabby, the roads with holes, the curbs are sikos nakos, playgrounds without tears you will not look ..

              And Moscow in this regard in those years did not differ much from other cities. Sobyanin would probably have been shot for laying and rearranging the curbs.
              Quote: max702
              Only a very hypocritical person can not see the difference ..

              Again, compare to the 50s.

              Moscow, if that.
              Quote: max702
              Again, I remember everything perfectly ..

              He remembers. We boys constantly went to the cinema at night, from where we went home at two in the morning, and there were no curfews. By the way, in our city of the four cinemas that were in Soviet times, not a single one remained.
            11. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 26 December 2020 11: 18
              0
              Quote: max702
              That before they did not do penny costs .. But there is no way in the mud for decades and lived ..

              I didn't even leave the house, I clicked the playground out of the window. The new one, five years ago, was installed.
            12. max702
              max702 26 December 2020 13: 00
              0
              Well, five years ago and put it .. That's right, but before there was what? Or is it straight high-tech 21st century? What have not been installed before? Or is this product expensive for the people's power? And what curfew are we talking about? Well, with cinemas, with the access to information that is now everywhere tight, they are dying like typewriters and film cameras. What years of Moscow is in the photo? And believe me, Moscow just flourished under Sobyanin, but under the late Luzhkov it finally turned into Moskvabad. All that they slander him is those who have been pushed away from the trough, but in fact there is nothing to compare, like the Ministry of Defense under Vorobyov .. That now not everything is perfect, I understand, but I also see changes for the better .. And so many problems like since I came from the late USSR and the resulting 90s, and it was all this that was headed by those people who are now rushing to power remembering the wonderful well-fed unpunished times .. I sincerely do not understand crying for those times, it was not just that everything was oh, not easy, crime the same, well, not at all the same as now, and fairy tales about the fact that the keys under the rug are also not needed, because there were no blanks for the keys, so they passed along a chain from under the rug, in our half-closed small town there were all burglaries and thefts Cars, gop stop on the streets, and even a fight at discos is a separate song, and daddy, born in 47, told me very interestingly about fights between districts .. And tell me all this is also available now? I don’t even want to discuss material well-being, sometimes we’ll sit down with our mother as we remember so it takes a shiver .. No, no thanks ..
            13. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 26 December 2020 23: 34
              0
              Quote: max702
              Well, five years ago and put it .. That's right, but before there was what?

              It was, it was. Similar. In another courtyard, the swing has been around since the late 80s. They haven't rotted yet.
              Quote: max702
              stupidly there were no blanks for keys on that and passed along a chain from under the rug

              At any enterprise where there is a milling machine, in a few minutes at lunchtime you would have made both a blank and a key.
              Quote: max702
              What years is in the photo?

              Mid 50s. 56th, specifically. Photo by Jacques Dupadier.
              Quote: max702
              And what curfew are we talking about?

              About the fact that a minor is forbidden to walk after 22-00, unaccompanied by adults.
              Quote: max702
              I don’t even want to discuss material well-being, we’ll sit down with our mother sometimes, as we remember, it takes a shiver ..

              Very normal well-being. Moving under the USSR to a new apartment, our family completely furnished it with furniture and appliances. And no one considered the workers, in contrast to the present time.
            14. max702
              max702 29 December 2020 23: 28
              0
              Oh, again ..It was, it was. Similar. In another courtyard, the swing has been around since the late 80s. Perfectly! I would have liked it .. How is it? -All life is ahead .. Hope and wait ... good
              At any enterprise where there is a milling machine, in a few minutes at lunchtime you would have made both a blank and a key. You are apparently very far from the realities of machining, so you are carrying such nonsense ... My Dad tried to do what you are talking about, but somehow it did not really grow together, and believe me it was at a very cool enterprise of Sredmash, you reminded me and I remembered this episode not really that these blanks were suitable because it is not such a simple matter as it seems.
              Moving under the USSR to a new apartment, our family fully furnished it with furniture and appliancesWhat kind of furniture and appliances? More details please and more specifically, where exactly in the USSR? For this is very important.
              About walking in the USSR after 22.00 is not funny, minors should be home unaccompanied by adults after 21.00, or are you against Soviet laws? And once again, where did you live?
              rs: By God, the greasy forelock has once again come out straight .. Live on your own! We got it already.
            15. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 29 December 2020 23: 40
              +1
              Quote: max702
              You are apparently very far from the realities of machining, so you are carrying such nonsense ... My Dad tried to do what you are talking about

              I have worked for several years at enterprises, and often stood at the machines, incl. and on milling machines, so ask your dad all the questions, I don't know what he didn’t succeed in there.
              Quote: max702
              More details please and more specifically, where exactly in the USSR? For this is very important.

              What is more detailed? At the time of the collapse of the USSR, we had three televisions, three tape recorders, and a computer, is that enough?
              Quote: max702
              And once again, where did you live?

              Tula region. And now I live there.
              Quote: max702
              By God, the greasy forelock has once again come out straight.

              I would tell you a couple of gentle, but reluctance to be banned forever.
            16. max702
              max702 30 December 2020 07: 03
              0
              The tape recorder is imported .. Also three .. Yeah .. I don't have to stand at the machine, but I have to work. Otherwise, the monitor is dirty .. I am a Tulchan officer's daughter ... Success in jumping!
            17. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 30 December 2020 07: 09
              +1
              Quote: max702
              Imported tape recorder .. Also three .. Yeah ..

              Eider. All our, domestic, lovers of the "Russian" trade wind.
              Quote: max702
              Good luck in jumping!

              And you don't have to be ill, patriot on the largus.
  • Alecsandr
    Alecsandr 27 December 2020 09: 51
    0
    Max 702. I totally agree with you. Now there are much more opportunities to live better. There would be a desire. Many people don’t want it now. They don’t want anything and only grumble about modern realities. Even more I will say that now there is more to be realized and to live well in Russia than in the West. But for this you need to apply your energy and efforts to achieve the goals set in life. It's just that nothing and nothing is given to anyone
  • max702
    max702 30 December 2020 07: 08
    0
    Quote: Alecsandr
    Max 702. I totally agree with you. Now there are much more opportunities to live better. There would be a desire. Many people don’t want it now. They don’t want anything and only grumble about modern realities. Even more I will say that now there is more to be realized and to live well in Russia than in the West. But for this you need to apply your energy and efforts to achieve the goals set in life. It's just that nothing and nothing is given to anyone

    So we who live in Russia understand it, and these characters are sure they will give them! And that's it! It is clear to us after the 90s, only everyone themselves and no matter how much more, the horses have forgotten how to do this for 70 years of sitting on their necks, because the Russian Vanka will do everything for them. I recommend LJ "Warehouse Svidomo Peremog" There, all this is examined under a microscope, the community is in first place in popularity despite the open policy of opposition to the LJ administration ..
  • Icarus
    Icarus 26 December 2020 19: 51
    0
    either a blind person or a paid person can not see this
    Also Svidomo, which Oleg Frolov is. Compared to the USSR, when the republics lived at the expense of Russia, we live a little better, but if we could drive away other parasites - oligarchs and corrupt officials, we would live much better.
  • max702
    max702 26 December 2020 20: 53
    0
    Here on the site, in general, a sect from the ruinda was drawn as before from the promised land, but apparently they decided to save money and hired northern Gabonians, characterized by a ritual against the USSR, belittling the achievements of modern Russia and complete ignorance of the current realities of our country .. attention to the construction of phrases and other language expressions .. After being bought by an Israeli citizen, it becomes more and more openly Russophobic resource .. The war is on all fronts and here, too, the soldiers of the ideological front are working out their service ..
  • Mordvin 3
    Mordvin 3 26 December 2020 23: 43
    0
    Quote: max702
    Here on the site in general a sect from the ruinda was drawn

    Who are they? Get out with slippers!
    Quote: max702
    belittling the achievements of modern Russia and complete ignorance of the current realities of our country ..

    But the bastards ... They do not understand the great and happy present of modern Russia.
    Quote: max702
    here, too, the soldiers of the ideological front work out their service.

    Take them full!
    Quote: max702
    and also pay attention to the construction of phrases and other language expressions.

    And also on gnarled handwriting and non-Russian ink. laughing
  • rocket757
    rocket757 24 December 2020 10: 10
    +8

    Ukraine emerged as an anti-Russian and anti-Russian project and, in principle, could not be otherwise

    At that moment, a group of greedy goats / L / isch, wanted to sit on the property in their estates, kingdoms !!!
    Then everything is natural. Reign, plunder more conveniently by dividing the masses of not strangers, in fact, people ...
    Raising Neighborhood Hatred is simply a mass management tool. Nothing new in general.
    1. apro
      apro 24 December 2020 10: 30
      -1
      Quote: rocket757
      At that moment, a group of greedy goats / L / isch, wanted to sit on the property in their estates, kingdoms !!!
      Then everything is natural. Reign, plunder more conveniently by dividing the masses of not strangers, in fact, people ...
      Raising Neighborhood Hatred is simply a mass management tool. Nothing new in general.

      Is this about Russia?
      1. aleksejkabanets
        aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 10: 34
        +9
        Quote: apro
        Is this about Russia?

        This is about the entire post-Soviet space.
        1. rocket757
          rocket757 24 December 2020 11: 47
          +4
          That's right, all those goat-horns grew up on the same pasture!
        2. Icarus
          Icarus 26 December 2020 20: 01
          -1
          This is about the entire post-Soviet space

          No, it's about individuals, not about spaces (nations).
      2. rocket757
        rocket757 24 December 2020 11: 46
        +2
        This is about the demise of the USSR.
        And there was enough co / Z / fishing everywhere, in abundance!
        1. apro
          apro 24 December 2020 11: 48
          -5
          Quote: rocket757
          This is about the demise of the USSR.

          Russian means nothing to do with ???
          1. aleksejkabanets
            aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 11: 56
            +1
            Quote: apro
            Russian means nothing to do with ???

            Co / Z / ly have no nationality.
            1. rocket757
              rocket757 24 December 2020 12: 46
              +1
              They do not have, but they are very good at disguising themselves even as sheep, pigs ... as anyone, if it will lead them to the head of the herd!
          2. rocket757
            rocket757 24 December 2020 12: 03
            +2
            ??? ... the question is, where did you see this?
            I DO NOT SEPARATE anyone at all and never by nationality, we were all from the same country.
            Now, quite differently, but the question is about THEN!
            1. apro
              apro 24 December 2020 12: 15
              +1
              Quote: rocket757
              Now, quite differently, but the question is about THEN!

              I understood you. But the destruction of the USSR happened because of two blows. A blow to the communists ... from inside and outside. And in raising national exclusivity. There was a time and the Russians were considered victims of communist tyranny ... as well as the cries that we feed everyone ... and we are not enough to stay ... but I really want more.
              1. rocket757
                rocket757 24 December 2020 12: 43
                +2
                A lot of dirt was then splashed out from the outside, and then those who were in this put a hand ... the country, the people are divided, in doubts !!!
                But, we must move on. We need to re-create inner unity based on ideas that lead us to the better ... then the former will catch up!
                No promises, persuasions, ephemeral threats will lead to unification, when there is nothing to unite with, there is nothing to strive for.
      3. Icarus
        Icarus 26 December 2020 19: 59
        -1
        Is this about Russia?
        This is about you, Svidomo Nazis (Frolov Olegs).
  • Gardamir
    Gardamir 24 December 2020 10: 11
    -2
    A friendly country? But Ukraine has never been Ukraine, only milked Russia, using the phantom pains of the Kremlin leadership.
    A huge minus to the author. What is now called Ukraine is two-thirds of the Russian lands donated by Yeltsin to the West.
    1. Sahalinets
      24 December 2020 10: 33
      +14
      I tried to answer one very specific question - did we lose Ukraine?
      1. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 24 December 2020 10: 52
        +12
        Quote: Sahalinets
        I tried to answer one very specific question - did we lose Ukraine?

        Yes, we lost it and - for the indistinct nat. Russian government policy.
        1. Fan-fan
          Fan-fan 24 December 2020 11: 31
          -2
          And I agree that we have lost Ukraine and two comrades are guilty here: Yeltsin and Putin, two boots - a pair. And the author is trying to prove to us that Ukraine has always been an enemy and the people there have always been our enemies, and therefore no one is to blame. The author probably forgot about the Utkin brothers, who made the first BZHRK and forgot about Yangel too? And who made the famous "Satan"? What, author, did our enemies do this to us?
          1. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter 24 December 2020 11: 34
            +6
            Quote: Fan-Fan
            The author probably forgot about the Utkin brothers who made the first BZHRK and forgot about Yangel too? And who made the famous "Satan"? What,

            Comrade, many of us have forgotten that until recently we lived in one great country.
            1. Lexus
              Lexus 24 December 2020 16: 22
              +4
              Some have shrunken or non-formed brains. And the conscience was popped out.
              1. Sling cutter
                Sling cutter 24 December 2020 16: 28
                +7
                Quote: lexus
                Some have shrunken or non-formed brains. And the conscience was popped out.

                Comrade, you're right!
                1. Lexus
                  Lexus 24 December 2020 16: 31
                  +2
                  You communicate with the braces and you understand that Nature rested on them.
                  1. Sling cutter
                    Sling cutter 24 December 2020 16: 39
                    +4
                    Quote: lexus
                    You communicate with the braces and you understand that Nature rested on them.

                    Denseness, swagger, envy, anger - these are not even all the teflon turtles on which our state stands.
                    1. Lexus
                      Lexus 24 December 2020 16: 43
                      +3
                      Kakahi, to be precise ...
            2. Overlock
              Overlock 24 December 2020 21: 49
              +7
              Quote: Stroporez
              many of us have forgotten that until recently we lived in one great country.

              and a generation is growing that no longer knows this country. They have other "cockroaches" in their heads
          2. Sahalinets
            24 December 2020 11: 37
            +8
            Have you read the article? Our enemies are not "people in general", but the ruling class of Ukraine - the oligarchs, officials and the Nazis. And this is their natural state. But they are the ones who rule.
            1. Glory1974
              Glory1974 24 December 2020 11: 53
              +1
              Our enemies are not "people in general", but the ruling class of Ukraine - the oligarchs, officials and the Nazis.

              So they are enemies in our home. And in general in any country. But you write about relatives
              Well, if your Ukrainian relatives hate you for political reasons, then this is exactly the loss that you should not regret.

              That is, you did not understand that such technologies will defeat any nation tomorrow. And you will write articles: “If your Kaliningrad (Moscow, Ural, Siberian) relatives hate you, you should not be sorry.
              fool
              1. Sahalinets
                24 December 2020 11: 58
                +4
                This is actually being voiced by the Ukrainian Nazis - to sever all ties with relatives in Russia. Well, you obviously did not understand my message.
                But I'll explain. If your family is led to this, you hardly need such relatives.
              2. Icarus
                Icarus 26 December 2020 20: 09
                0
                If your Kaliningrad (Moscow, Ural, Siberian) relatives hate you, do not be sorry
                What do you think, to fall on your knees before the lost sheep? Or call them to account with a whip? I am personally for the whip, and you?
            2. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter 24 December 2020 11: 54
              +6
              Quote: Sahalinets
              Our enemies are not "people in general", but the ruling class of Ukraine - the oligarchs, officials and the Nazis.

              Can you explain why the Ukrainian oligarchs are worse / better than the Russian oligarchs?
              1. Sahalinets
                24 December 2020 11: 59
                +6
                Nothing. But because of their course, a lot of blood will still be shed.
                1. Lexus
                  Lexus 24 December 2020 16: 23
                  +2
                  One and the same watering can. On the Cote d'Azur they laugh at the putriots and skakuas.
              2. Overlock
                Overlock 24 December 2020 21: 50
                +6
                Quote: Stroporez
                Can you explain why the Ukrainian oligarchs are worse / better than the Russian oligarchs?

                Two of a Kind.
            3. aleksejkabanets
              aleksejkabanets 24 December 2020 11: 57
              +2
              Quote: Sahalinets
              and the ruling class of Ukraine is the oligarchs, officials and the Nazis.

              Is it only Ukraine? And why?
            4. Gardamir
              Gardamir 24 December 2020 13: 56
              +3
              Our enemies are not "people in general", but the ruling class - oligarchs, officials and Nazis. And this is their natural state. But they are the ones who rule.
              so it is more correct
            5. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 24 December 2020 17: 59
              +1
              Quote: Sahalinets
              Our enemies are not "people in general", but the ruling class of Ukraine - the oligarchs, officials and the Nazis. And this is their natural state. But they are the ones who rule.

              Why did the LDNR get around neatly?
            6. Overlock
              Overlock 24 December 2020 21: 50
              +8
              Quote: Sahalinets
              Our enemies are not "people in general", but the ruling class of Ukraine - the oligarchs, officials and the Nazis

              Complete analogy with Russia
              1. Icarus
                Icarus 26 December 2020 20: 17
                0
                Complete analogy with Russia
                Where did you see the Nazis in the ruling class of Russia? What is the name? Only Zhirinovsky is inappropriate, not funny. We have only global oligarchs, nothing national is inherent in them.
      2. Sidor Amenpodestovich
        Sidor Amenpodestovich 24 December 2020 11: 18
        +3
        Quote: Sahalinets
        I tried to answer one very specific question - did we lose Ukraine?

        Some representatives of the local contingent, as usual, did not understand anything.
  • Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 24 December 2020 10: 11
    +11
    Ukraine emerged as an anti-Russian and anti-Russian project and, in principle, could not be otherwise.

    I will add: modern Ukraine ...
    "Why is it needed at all, at least within the boundaries of 1991?"

    Why was it necessary to artificially create (annex, cut off, divide) territorial associations for political reasons in general? And the "bride" adopted in 1922 was long overdue to sober up with a "marriage contract", and "sister" - with a will.
    In general, the article is “on the case”.
    1. Sahalinets
      24 December 2020 13: 08
      +1
      VIL was a brilliant tactician. BUT no strategist. And laid a mine under the building.
      1. Icarus
        Icarus 26 December 2020 20: 33
        0
        Quote: Sahalinets
        VIL was a brilliant tactician. BUT no strategist. And laid a mine under the building.

        I agree 100%. That is why they are doing the right thing in Ukraine that they do not want any feudalization. And, if we do not abandon the federal structure, disintegration will inevitably occur in the long-term (strategic) perspective (during the period of economic recession that occurred simultaneously with the political crisis). There should not be any republics in Russia by nationality. It was necessary to urgently change the constitution and the territorial structure of the state, as long as there was such an opportunity (if there was a will to preserve the country), having a constitutional majority in the Duma, and not nullify the presidential terms (personal interests). But, the caliber is not the same and the goals are different (See, for example, Federal Law No. 22.12.2020-FZ of December 462, XNUMX).
  • Ros 56
    Ros 56 24 December 2020 10: 14
    +5
    We just need to return our lands back with normal people, but without the Nazis. negative
    1. apro
      apro 24 December 2020 10: 17
      +2
      Quote: Ros 56
      We just need to return our lands back with normal people, but without the Nazis. negative

      And how to define normal people? And what to read as normal?
      1. Ros 56
        Ros 56 24 December 2020 12: 42
        -3
        In my opinion, during this time we have already identified all xy from xy, and they themselves will begin to hand over each other when it goes.
      2. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 24 December 2020 13: 16
        +2
        Quote: apro
        And how to define normal people?

        If, when pronouncing a number of names, “the patient” does not jump up and does not throw out his right hand, then everything is fine.
        If the eyes burn in frenzy, and the body requires jumping, then everything is simple:
        1. apro
          apro 24 December 2020 14: 11
          -1
          Quote: ROSS 42
          Quote: apro
          And how to define normal people?

          If, when pronouncing a number of names, “the patient” does not jump up and does not throw out his right hand, then everything is fine.
          If the eyes burn in frenzy, and the body requires jumping, then everything is simple:

          Oh ... the Russian Gestapo ... and on the shot ... what will you do with the rest? Tell what a good Russian master? How well we will live ... it broadcasts to zero every year ... it is not possible to look. You cannot offer Ukrainians anything. what they don't have ..
          1. Ros 56
            Ros 56 25 December 2020 06: 58
            0
            Here you are very much mistaken. And judging by your text, you are a liberalist.
      3. Icarus
        Icarus 26 December 2020 20: 36
        0
        And how to define normal people? And what to read as normal?
        It is written: the land without you (Frolov Olegs), that is, without the Nazis.
    2. voronin
      voronin 24 December 2020 10: 24
      +14
      In 2014, there was an opportunity, but the leadership did not go further than Crimea.
    3. New Year day
      New Year day 24 December 2020 10: 26
      +3
      Quote: Ros 56
      We just need to get our lands back with normal people

      Who interferes?
      1. Alex_You
        Alex_You 24 December 2020 10: 49
        -1
        [/ Quote]
        Quote: Silvestr
        [quote = Ros 56] We just need to return our lands back with normal people,

        Who interferes?

        Sofa.
        1. New Year day
          New Year day 24 December 2020 11: 02
          +2
          Quote: Alex_You
          Sofa.

          You can't think of a stupider answer
          1. Lexus
            Lexus 24 December 2020 16: 33
            +2
            But in fact, alas, so. The sofa and the stomach rule ... When there are no brains.
            1. Overlock
              Overlock 24 December 2020 21: 52
              +7
              Quote: lexus
              But in fact, alas, so. The sofa and the stomach rule ... When there are no brains.

              Steers the power, which is chosen by those sitting on the couch and who are satisfied with this power
    4. max702
      max702 24 December 2020 16: 39
      0
      The problem is that the normal interest there is miserable .. And what to do with the rest? Concentration camps and genocide are not our method, so all by ourselves .. They will sit in the cold and hunger and eat shit with blood from the heart, you see, there will be fewer Natsiks ... Any Ukrainian is sure that he is white bone and blue blood, even the residents of Donbass think so alas ... That is why the quarantine measures are like that for 50 years, and then it will be seen .. Bratskonodnost ended in the forest ..
      1. Icarus
        Icarus 26 December 2020 20: 47
        0
        Therefore, quarantine measures for about 50 years, and then we will see
        I assure you, that much time will not be needed, given normal cultural and educational (propaganda) work and a correct school curriculum, plus strict public control. Unfortunately, the brains in our time (mass media technologies) very quickly reformat the majority in any direction.
        1. max702
          max702 26 December 2020 21: 19
          0
          But I disagree, it is for the reason given by you that it really takes about 50 years at least, otherwise, again on the rake ..
          1. Icarus
            Icarus 26 December 2020 21: 34
            0
            It doesn't matter. If only the result was. I was looking (not yet persistently) did not find information that the site was acquired by a representative from the Promised Land. Will you give me a link?
          2. Icarus
            Icarus 26 December 2020 21: 56
            0
            It seems like the same participants (founders) of VO-media LLC (TIN 1841036310) since 2014.
  • EXPrompt
    EXPrompt 24 December 2020 10: 17
    +5
    Ukraine is already scary.

    Mine grew up in childhood in Odessa, they were taken to the sea to my grandmother. Already her third friend died of covid.
    My doctor, they know everything that she suffered from covid, they call for advice ..
    $ 100 BUNK per day, no food and no drugs. Medicines for your own, whatever you find.
    Ukraine is scary - not even Ukrainian doctors are scary, they do what they can, the lack of powerful modern medicines is scary. Uraina is scary - the collapse of medicine and the absence of its own pharmacological base ...

    When their PRESIDENT does not understand why people want to prick Sutnik-V, I can’t characterize this creature without a mat.

    Ukraine is scary, the right to the Russian language was canceled, they reached the right to Life.

    I can only sympathize with them.
  • antivirus
    antivirus 24 December 2020 10: 19
    +3
    what a shock I once experienced when I learned that the fans of Kiev "Dynamo" back in 1989 yelled in the stands:

    "Death to the Muscovites!"


    -It is interesting to know the opinion of "Soviet" athletes - Blokhin About iDeryugina. just an internet interview. there will be a bomb.
    1. Trapp1st
      Trapp1st 24 December 2020 10: 49
      +3
      what a shock I once experienced when I learned that the fans of Kiev "Dynamo" back in 1989 yelled in the stands: "Death to Muscovites!"
      You are lucky that at that time you were not, for example, in Chechnya. (I can give a lot of examples)
  • svp67
    svp67 24 December 2020 10: 20
    -3
    And we have lost not only what we never had, but what never had any real meaning.
    Author, what are you talking about? About the millions of Russian soldiers who died during the liberation and conquest of these territories? About the lost huge cash investments spent on the improvement and construction of the city and industrial centers? About given away, just like that, just to raise the percentage of the proletariat territories? About people who are now loyal, who were waiting for more energetic actions in the Ukrainian question from Russia ...
    1. Sahalinets
      24 December 2020 10: 35
      +5
      If you officially donated something to someone, it is no longer yours and it's too late to bite your elbows!
      1. svp67
        svp67 24 December 2020 10: 39
        -1
        Quote: Sahalinets
        If you officially donated something to someone, it is no longer yours and it's too late to bite your elbows!

        Then the question is for you personally, and whose Crimea?
        1. Sahalinets
          24 December 2020 10: 42
          +4
          Crimea is now ours! winked Although it costs us a lot ...
          1. svp67
            svp67 24 December 2020 17: 39
            0
            Quote: Sahalinets
            Crimea is now ours

            You will decide ... or ...
            Quote: Sahalinets
            If you officially donated something to someone, it is no longer yours and it's too late to bite your elbows!
          2. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 24 December 2020 18: 03
            0
            Quote: Sahalinets
            Crimea is now ours!

            Why isn't Donetsk ours?
        2. antivirus
          antivirus 24 December 2020 12: 14
          0
          lost their head through their hair do not cry ............................................ ....................
  • Avior
    Avior 24 December 2020 10: 24
    +2
    ... I remember very well what a shock I once experienced when I learned that Dynamo Kiev fans were yelling in the stands back in 1989:

    "Death to the Muscovites!"

    I'll tell the author a secret - most of the screaming were Russian or at least Russian-speaking, like Kiev as a whole in 1989, and they were not going to kill any Russians.
    The author either does not understand what he is writing about, or deliberately transfers the dismantling of football fans with their chants to the sphere of interstate relations.
    He would have presented the Moscow fans with the residents of St. Petersburg as irreconcilable cities.
    In general, an article about the fact that it is not possible to make Ukraine an ally - well, to hell with it, then this is unnecessary
    The classic way to turn zrada into a win.
    The whole world sees friendly and allied relations with other countries as the basis of prosperity and security, but the author does not see this point-blank.
    Belarus and Ukraine are the two most mentally, ethnically and in other respects close states to Russia.
    And only the author does not need allies and he discourages others from this.
    Oh well. The states with England, as they were allies, and remain, no matter what conflicts between them arise .....: (((
    1. Sahalinets
      24 December 2020 10: 36
      +10
      It seems to me that I have clearly outlined that the Ukrainian ruling class does not want any friendship with Russia in principle. There is simply no foundation for this.
      Well, "Muscovites for knives!" it's not just fans who have been yelling there for a long time.
      1. Svarog
        Svarog 24 December 2020 10: 50
        +5
        Quote: Sahalinets
        that the Ukrainian ruling class does not want any friendship with Russia in principle. There is simply no foundation for this.

        And under what we have a basis .. There is no basis in the Russian Federation. The foundation needs to be created, just like the ruling class, but everything is left to chance, and this is the result.
      2. The eye of the crying
        The eye of the crying 24 December 2020 11: 15
        +1
        Most of all, your text is similar to the description of your ex-wife who left - like, she was always a whore, so it's even good that she left.
        1. Sahalinets
          24 December 2020 11: 21
          +5
          Thoughtfully .... well, if a person left you, then probably you shouldn't try to get him back, since he doesn't appreciate you? This is me about my ex-wife. laughing
          1. The eye of the crying
            The eye of the crying 24 December 2020 11: 28
            +1
            If you want him back, then first think about why he left you. And even if you don't want to, at least have the courage not to invent an alternative past.
            1. Sahalinets
              24 December 2020 11: 31
              +2
              On this path, you will receive nothing but the contempt of your ex.
              1. The eye of the crying
                The eye of the crying 24 December 2020 11: 33
                -2
                Which "this"?
                1. Sahalinets
                  24 December 2020 11: 38
                  +2
                  Attempts to return. Well, she doesn't love you anymore, that's all.
                  1. The eye of the crying
                    The eye of the crying 24 December 2020 11: 40
                    -3
                    In that case ... see above
                    1. Sahalinets
                      24 December 2020 11: 47
                      +4
                      In this case, do not give stupid analogies. Relations between countries are not at all like the love of M and J.
                      1. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 24 December 2020 11: 48
                        0
                        I use analogies that I consider appropriate. And you come up with an alternative past.
      3. Avior
        Avior 24 December 2020 11: 54
        +4
        It only seems to you.
        No ruling class wants any friendship and is not going to kiss passionately with anyone, they are not gay
        And allied relations are a completely different matter
        But this does not include the purchase of property.
        You will never acquire allies
        The problem with Belarus is exactly the same.
        And you, it seems, do not distinguish between these things.
        In addition, you do not see that in Ukraine there is no single center of power, as in Russia, and, accordingly, there is no single center for decision-making, and in this regard, the effectiveness of propaganda in Ukraine is exaggerated by you - and you are in your arguments about Ukraine in this matter draw with tracing paper from Russia.
        1. Dimide
          Dimide 24 December 2020 13: 00
          0
          I completely agree with uv. Avior.
          As Trump Says - "PPCS" hi
    2. businessv
      businessv 24 December 2020 13: 36
      +2
      Quote: Avior
      The whole world sees friendly and allied relations with other countries as the basis for prosperity and security ...
      Too optimistic, colleague! I am sure that our "partners" will not agree with you! They certainly do not need friendly, let alone allied relations with us! After all, it was they who created the current situation, having found and bought their leadership in neighboring, formerly fraternal countries. You will probably agree that they are in no way interested in the prosperity of the region, like Belarus. They are interested in our huge resources and domestic market. I think you will also agree that our country is full of their agents of influence that do not contribute to our prosperity.
      1. Avior
        Avior 24 December 2020 13: 43
        +6
        I do not mean "partners".
        What I mean is that for normal and allied relations between Ukraine, Belarus and Russia there is - at least certainly there were - every reason, no matter how the author assures me otherwise, and Russia is interested in such relations.
        But this resource was ineptly profited to satisfy the ambitions and financial needs of friends from among the closest ones. And now they are proving that nothing like that is possible. Yes, if you conduct a policy like this, then it is definitely impossible ....: (((
  • Interlocutor
    Interlocutor 24 December 2020 10: 31
    +15
    In fact, this nationalism did not disappear anywhere even in Soviet times, only its carriers temporarily moved from caches to Lviv kitchens


    I confirm one hundred percent.
    In Vinnitsa at the age of 8 he came to his grandfather. In the central park, the same eight or ten years old, greeted and shouted "Are you a Muscovite? What are you doing here at all. Che came," I am a green stump, I didn’t even understand this word Muscovite. ”And this would be a temple USSR. ..
    1. The eye of the crying
      The eye of the crying 24 December 2020 11: 13
      +1
      Quote: Interlocutor
      In the central park, the same eight or ten years old greeted and yelled "Are you a Muscovite? What are you doing here at all.


      And in the neighboring area of ​​the city they asked me "What area are you from? Then now otp ... m."
      1. New Year day
        New Year day 24 December 2020 11: 23
        +3
        Quote: Eye of the Crying
        And in the neighboring area of ​​the city they asked me "What area are you from? Then now otp ... m."

        was it only in Ukraine? Remember the Kazan groupings under the Union. "Street to street" was very common
        1. The eye of the crying
          The eye of the crying 24 December 2020 11: 26
          0
          It was not in Ukraine at all. The meaning of my message was that those who wanted to beat "strangers" could use any criterion - a "stranger" could live two steps away and speak the same language. So it’s silly to draw profound conclusions from stories about how in Vinnitsa they yelled “are you a Muscovite?”.
          1. Sahalinets
            24 December 2020 11: 32
            +7
            But mind you, the Muscovite was already a stranger. And who have the kids got?
            1. The eye of the crying
              The eye of the crying 24 December 2020 11: 42
              -2
              Once again, slowly: anyone could (and have been) a stranger.
            2. Dimide
              Dimide 24 December 2020 11: 57
              0
              Igor, I’ll tell you a secret, periodically he lived with his parents in the RSFSR and everywhere he was “Ukrainian” (the site does not allow me to write correctly) I was not called laughing
              1. Sahalinets
                24 December 2020 12: 04
                0
                And you were beaten for that?
                1. Dimide
                  Dimide 24 December 2020 12: 12
                  0
                  I also fought for this reason,
                  until you earn authority in the "young flock". laughing
                2. Avior
                  Avior 24 December 2020 13: 11
                  +2
                  so the Interlocutor did not write that he was beaten at all
      2. Interlocutor
        Interlocutor 24 December 2020 12: 12
        +1

        And in the neighboring area of ​​the city they asked me "What area are you from? Then now otp ... m."


        I agree in your case, petty hooliganism. In my petty nationalism.
        1. The eye of the crying
          The eye of the crying 24 December 2020 14: 46
          0
          And I disagree. Obviously, in my case, there was regional nationalism.
  • Svarog
    Svarog 24 December 2020 10: 33
    +1
    Ukraine emerged as an anti-Russian and anti-Russian project and, in principle, could not be otherwise.

    Did this project come about by itself? Or someone built it? And if it was built against us, then why didn't they oppose? Why didn't they do anything ..
    There is no need to justify the authorities' inaction. Ukraine has always been a fraternal state. And only after the collapse of the USSR, she became an enemy. All this only indicates that both Ukraine and Russia are controlled from outside. Divided and dominated.
    And the thinking of the people ... anyone can be changed with the help of propaganda and social justice.
    1. Sahalinets
      24 December 2020 10: 57
      +6
      Did you live in Russia in the 90s? There, as it is now in Ukraine, it existed from one IMF loan to another, and there was a crowd in the streets ...
      1. Svarog
        Svarog 24 December 2020 11: 04
        0
        Quote: Sahalinets
        Did you live in Russia in the 90s? There, as it is now in Ukraine, it existed from one IMF loan to another, and there was a crowd in the streets ...

        Are you saying that we live much better? The crowd we have is not buzzing ... because everyone was given conditional terms, and who was under arrest at home .. Well, about loans .. So Ukraine just does not have oil and gas ... and so we are not much different ..
        1. Sahalinets
          24 December 2020 11: 09
          +4
          Damn ... well, it's not about that now! Russia in the 90s was simply incapacitated. Grozny alone was worth ...
          1. New Year day
            New Year day 24 December 2020 11: 25
            +2
            Quote: Sahalinets
            Russia in the 90s was simply incapacitated. Grozny alone was worth ...

            you say rightly, and it was the poet that everyone greeted Putin with joy: "he will sort everything out and return everything to normal." He settled
            1. Lexus
              Lexus 24 December 2020 16: 37
              +2
              I stuffed my "friends" into the pockets ...
          2. Sidor Amenpodestovich
            Sidor Amenpodestovich 24 December 2020 11: 29
            0
            Quote: Sahalinets
            Damn ... well, it's not about that now!

            Useless. For them, everything outside the USSR is a disembodied timelessness that has no right to exist.
            Svarog once issued the thesis that since Russia is not the USSR, he does not understand at all why she, Russia, should be.
            1. Svarog
              Svarog 24 December 2020 13: 39
              +4
              Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich
              Svarog once issued the thesis that since Russia is not the USSR, he does not understand at all why she, Russia, should be.

              Don't write nonsense here ..
              1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
                Sidor Amenpodestovich 24 December 2020 13: 56
                -5
                Quote: Svarog
                Don't write nonsense here ..

                It's true. Unfortunately, I cannot confirm, since you have almost ten thousand comments, and it is extremely dubious pleasure to rummage through them. But you had such a comment. Not literally, of course, but the message is symmetrical.
    2. businessv
      businessv 24 December 2020 12: 27
      +4
      Quote: Svarog
      And the thinking of the people ... anyone can be changed with the help of propaganda and social justice.
      I would put social justice first, colleague! If it were in Russia, our authorities would not have to do anything in order to attract all of its neighbors to Russia.
      1. Svarog
        Svarog 24 December 2020 13: 41
        +5
        Quote: businessv
        Quote: Svarog
        And the thinking of the people ... anyone can be changed with the help of propaganda and social justice.
        I would put social justice first, colleague! If it were in Russia, our authorities would not have to do anything in order to attract all of its neighbors to Russia.

        I agree .. but promoting a "healthy lifestyle" is also not bad.
        1. businessv
          businessv 24 December 2020 14: 14
          +2
          Quote: Svarog
          promoting a "healthy lifestyle" is also not bad.
          I would even say that this is correct! good
  • Trapp1st
    Trapp1st 24 December 2020 10: 38
    +2
    to discuss the topic in its literal reading does not make sense.
    If not literally, then the Russian Federation not only lost its territory with no prospects of returning, after 2014 it lost the Russian people who lived there, received Natsiks.
    1. Dimide
      Dimide 24 December 2020 12: 21
      0
      You know to some extent agree with you
  • Vadim Golubkov
    Vadim Golubkov 24 December 2020 10: 39
    0
    About the minority of the Bolsheviks. Reading A. Gaidar, he just wrote that the Bolsheviks, being in the minority, made the right choice for the workers and peasants, and this is precisely the majority and strength, and in the army the soldiers consisted of them, which was correct, while other parties were betting on the rich, merchants, industrialists, officers, shopkeepers, etc., and therefore lost without the support of the people.
  • wow
    wow 24 December 2020 10: 40
    -3
    Article - plus did not even read ...
  • tatra
    tatra 24 December 2020 10: 44
    +1
    If simpler, shorter and closer to the truth. Russia, Ukraine are inanimate concepts, PEOPLE do everything. And if the Soviet communists and their supporters in the Soviet republics coexisted calmly and peacefully, then the enemies of the communists, and in the republics of the USSR instilled anger and hatred against everything Soviet, they longed to dismember the USSR, that after the seizure of the republics of the USSR, 30 children instill anger and hatred as against the Bolsheviks -Communists and their supporters, and against each other.
    1. Vadim Golubkov
      Vadim Golubkov 24 December 2020 10: 59
      +5
      As Vladimir Menshov said, I don’t remember exactly, but the meaning is this ... Hatred of the USSR and the communists smoothly turned into Russophobia and hatred of Russians and Russia.
    2. Sidor Amenpodestovich
      Sidor Amenpodestovich 24 December 2020 11: 51
      -3
      Quote: tatra
      And if the Soviet communists and their supporters in the Soviet republics coexisted calmly and peacefully, then the enemies of the communists, and in the republics of the USSR, planted anger and hatred against everything Soviet, longed to dismember the USSR

      You write in such a way that it seems as if before the USSR there was nothing at all, only dense chaos without a soul and purpose.
      Or maybe in a different way? During the time of the Russian Empire, there was a real unity of the Russian people, since there was neither Belarus nor Ukraine, but there were White Russia and Little Russia?
      1. Serg65
        Serg65 24 December 2020 13: 40
        -5
        Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich
        You write like that

        laughing And you Horace, fell for this bait?
        1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
          Sidor Amenpodestovich 24 December 2020 13: 59
          -4
          Quote: Serg65
          And you Horace, fell for this bait?

          Which one?
          1. Serg65
            Serg65 24 December 2020 14: 09
            -4
            To fight the mills! wink
            1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
              Sidor Amenpodestovich 24 December 2020 14: 11
              -3
              Quote: Serg65
              To fight the mills!

              Not at all! I'm just having a good time.
  • Tagan
    Tagan 24 December 2020 10: 48
    +4
    Quote: Avior

    I'll tell the author a secret - most of the screaming were Russian or at least Russian-speaking, like Kiev as a whole in 1989, and they were not going to kill any Russians.

    Well, I'll tell you a secret too. Back in 1985, as future cadets, we were given introductory talks on the specifics of communication with the Kiev natives. They told us how a bow, an umbrella, etc. would be in Ukrainian.
    Maybe they weren't going to kill us, but the fight was nothing special.)))
    And the same Lvov were practically fascists.
    1. Avior
      Avior 24 December 2020 12: 03
      +5
      Zvizdezh is full of your secret
      At 85, most of Kiev spoke Russian, and a third of Lvov.
      If you were beaten in the face, it’s not because you don’t know how to say a bow or an umbrella in Ukrainian - the latter and half of the Ukrainians didn’t know.
  • Vovk
    Vovk 24 December 2020 10: 48
    -1
    But Russian capital was looking at Ukraine with great interest. And since the Moscow oligarchs were not inferior to the local ones in terms of depravity, and clearly outnumbered the local ones in terms of the amount of money, they were viewed as dangerous competitors. It is not surprising that a collective decision very quickly matured to protect their plot from colleagues because of the “curb” and to share everything ourselves. That, of course, did not exclude the desire to crawl into the pocket of any gape "partner".

    The author forgot to mention such a small thing ... as the laundering through schemes of a huge amount of money in Ukraine of Moscow oligarchs that were stolen from the common Russian people. The leadership of Russia also took part in this. So the story is about who is really to blame for the current situation ... the one who received hoard money for selling the interests of his country and people ...
    1. Sahalinets
      24 December 2020 11: 10
      +1
      It goes without saying. But only friendship with accomplices in the criminal business does not arise.
    2. businessv
      businessv 24 December 2020 12: 22
      +2
      Quote: Vovk
      The author forgot to mention such a small thing ... as the laundering through schemes of a huge amount of money in Ukraine of Moscow oligarchs that were stolen from the common Russian people.

      Such things are not done through government agencies, dear! For this, different types of gambling and construction business are used, as a rule. Huge amounts of money are not laundered in small countries - opportunities are too limited and too visual! The exception is offshore zones and countries, which is not an independent one. Money was invested in the square, that's for sure, but within the framework of a market economy, in order to increase the income of individual individuals. Please do not add unnecessary voltage! smile
      1. Vovk
        Vovk 24 December 2020 14: 43
        -1
        Quote: businessv
        Such things are not done through government agencies, dear! For this, different types of gambling and construction business are used, as a rule. Huge amounts of money are not laundered in small countries - opportunities are too limited and too visual! The exception is offshore zones and countries, which is not an independent one. Money was invested in the square, that's for sure, but within the framework of a market economy, in order to increase the income of individual individuals. Please do not add unnecessary voltage!

        Let me give you a simple example. Until recently, gas was sold to Ukraine according to the following scheme, Russia sold to Ukraine at the lowest price, in Ukraine for consumers and industry the price increased by 3 times, the difference was divided in half between the Ukrainian and Russian government. structures. Here is an example of a solution through the state. structure of Russia.
  • Yuri Tverdokhleb
    Yuri Tverdokhleb 24 December 2020 10: 56
    0
    The last euromudan turned on the mechanism of automatic self-destruction of ukrokolonia. The ideology of Banderon Nazism is ready to kill and burn, sell everything Ukrainian, but just not to be close to the neighbor Russia. This is an axiom. The whole question is what pieces of the outskirts will Russia get.
  • New Year day
    New Year day 24 December 2020 11: 00
    +5
    How to Lose What We Never Had

    A provocative name in relation to this topic, because the author immediately sweeps aside the entire common Soviet past, including the Second World War, the Ukrainians who died in the fight against fascism. The contribution of the Ukrainian SSR to the victory over Nazism can hardly be overestimated - every sixth soldier in the ranks of the Red Army was Ukrainian. It has been proven that among the servicemen drafted into the Soviet army in 1941, only 3% survived. 1.4 million people died. The contribution of the Ukrainians to our Victory has already been discussed.
    https://topwar.ru/154383-nastojaschie-geroi-ukrainy.html
    Remarks the contribution of Soviet Ukraine to the development of the USSR.

    So was it or was it not? - It was! Because there was Soviet Ukraine and there was a Soviet man.
    So we will talk about the loss of the great Russian-Ukrainian friendship declared by the mourners.
    It was she, this FRIENDSHIP. There was this
    ... nationalism didn’t disappear anywhere even in Soviet times, only its carriers temporarily moved from caches to Lviv kitchens.

    But the author forgot that all of Ukraine is not Lviv cuisine!
    This is 603,7 thousand km2 (3rd in the USSR), this is 51,7067 million people. (1989) -2nd in the USSR!
    The author will agree that all this will not fit even in the largest Lviv kitchen.
    It is also strange that the author begins his speech in 2014, forgetting everything I said.
    And then, you can practically agree with the author. But, a simple question arises - HOW and WHY "Lviv kitchens" captured the minds of 50 million people and Ukraine has by now formed as "AntiRussia"
    At what stage did this happen and who is to blame? Having answered it, you can ask a second question: What to do?
    As a footnote, the author should recall that Ukraine announced its independence after Russia!
    1. Sahalinets
      24 December 2020 11: 06
      +2
      Do you want a parsing from the King of Peas? Sorry, but hardly anyone will read. The article raises a specific question about contemporary relations between the Russian Federation and Ukraine.
      1. New Year day
        New Year day 24 December 2020 11: 21
        +3
        Quote: Sahalinets
        Do you want a parsing from the King of Peas?

        no, but in that case it was possible to specify
        Replace "How to Lose What We Never Had"
        ON:
        "Ukraine, which we have lost since 1991"
        "How we lost what we had"
        You are describing events from 2014, but the process broke out in 91.
        It's just that I am a witness of those events and everything went through me.
        1. Sahalinets
          24 December 2020 11: 28
          +5
          So I started with 91. How the Ukrainian ruling class suddenly found itself in front of the trough ...
          1. New Year day
            New Year day 24 December 2020 11: 54
            +2
            Quote: Sahalinets
            How the Ukrainian ruling class suddenly found itself in front of the trough ...

            but before 91 we still had
            1. Sahalinets
              24 December 2020 12: 01
              -1
              More precisely, the Party had all of us. And it was in the RSFSR that life was most difficult.
    2. businessv
      businessv 24 December 2020 12: 13
      +2
      Quote: Silvestr
      At what stage did this happen and who is to blame? Having answered it, you can ask a second question: What to do?
      I agree with all statements, colleague! I think that our managers and oligarchs are to blame to a large extent, who put them in order for these same managers to look after the interests of the oligarchs in power. On "what to do?" the answer is obvious - to change the government, nothing else has been given in view of the fact that for the last 20 years, the current government has done everything it was capable of.
  • prior
    prior 24 December 2020 11: 02
    +4
    "Rabbits are not only valuable fur ..."

    Modern Ukraine is a country of experimental "rabbits".
    The fate of the "rabbits" is known - meat and wool.
    It remains only to sympathize, they themselves wanted it ...
  • 2 Level Advisor
    2 Level Advisor 24 December 2020 11: 08
    +4
    He was not torn off Ukraine, but in most Russian people and Russian lands .. Ukraine is essentially the power that called itself so .. over the primordial Russian lands and people ..
    As for the people .. Someone thinks that in Crimea there were no unwilling people to go to Russia? There were .. my relatives for example .. but nothing, now the citizens of the Russian Federation, all the laws have been adopted and live .. Also with by a majority regions in 2014 .. would include them in the composition - everything would be fine .. people would accept it - without any special incidents ..
    Now, of course, it is noticeably more difficult - the brain has been rinsed out over the past 5 years ... especially for grown-up youth, who in 2014 were 12-15 years old, and now 18-21 ..
    But, if the author talks about the situation BEFORE 2014 .. then I think - yes .. definitely lost ..
  • Anachoret
    Anachoret 24 December 2020 11: 14
    0
    in arguments "about an aggressive minority" it is not necessary to poke at neighbors)
    in Russia, for example, liberal ideas are popular among the people within the sampling error, but for 30 years, Russian citizens are persistently offered to choose between liberals and moderate liberals)
    on the one hand, officials advocate traditional values ​​and prohibit the promotion of homosexuality. on the other hand, sex education in schools and juvenile justice are being actively promoted. and in every popular modern series there is necessarily a character with non-traditional accreditation, presented, in general, in a positive manner. and so on, for example, in the type of family series "ideal family", homosexual marriages, bdsm, swingers and other husks are served as norms. in other serials, in the form of jokes, pedophilia propaganda is already being served. overton windows, however)
    ps
    I completely agree about the initial "unfriendliness of Ukraine", but the reasons must be looked for a hundred years ago in the plans of Colonel House (the gray cardinal under Woodrow Wilson) and his representative in Russia, L. D. Trotsky
  • Doctor
    Doctor 24 December 2020 11: 17
    0
    This logic is the path to the Moscow principality.
    1. Sahalinets
      24 December 2020 11: 39
      +1
      Are you proposing to take the whole crowd for food again?
      1. Doctor
        Doctor 24 December 2020 11: 45
        0
        Are you proposing to take the whole crowd for food again?

        Not on your nelly! Here I completely agree.
        But ethnically and mentally close regions must be united.
      2. Pamir
        Pamir 24 December 2020 22: 06
        0
        No food, no autonomies, such as Abkhazia, South Ossetia, LDNR. Only if an integral part of the internal regions of the Russian Federation, such as Voronezh, Orenburg, Kemerovo, Tomsk, Khabarovsk Territories, Primorsky Territories and all other regions and territories. All on a general basis, the economy , politics, finance, jurisdiction, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Constitution, the armed forces, one army, without any privileges. Enough presidents over or under presidents, have already spawned them. Enough of princelings with self-governments. About autonomy, like the Russian Federation is with us and for us in In the case of military aggression, BUT separately in the economy and politics, forget, the word with a mustache has never been. And strictly, the installation for the population, in ninety percent of the consent of inclusion in the Russian Federation. That's enough privileges of the times of the USSR.
  • businessv
    businessv 24 December 2020 11: 36
    +2
    I cannot say that the policy of the Russian Federation in the Ukrainian direction inspires me. She seems completely ill-considered. As, incidentally, our entire foreign policy in general.
    For me, this phrase is key, but I would also add that if Russia was conducting its internal policy differently - with care for its citizens, and not with care for the oligarch, then there would be no need to prove to the neighbors that we are better than their "Western partners ", then all our neighbors would be with us, as before! hi
  • Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 24 December 2020 11: 40
    +3
    what a shock I once experienced when I learned that the fans of Kiev "Dynamo" back in 1989 yelled in the stands:

    "Death to the Muscovites!"

    And what did they say in the kitchens in the Volga region, in the Urals, in Vladivostok?
    In the late 80s, everyone did not like maskwa.
    But Ukraine had a ready-made ideology. There were its adherents, there was support from "abroad". And it naturally captured the minds of even completely Russian people.
    And so, yes, it's hard to disagree with the author, by 2014 there was nothing to lose, everything was lost before.
  • evgen1221
    evgen1221 24 December 2020 12: 03
    +2
    During any economic shocks and declining living standards in any country. It is easiest for the population to enter nationalism with its growth into fascism. What distracts this population from the deriban of the country as much as possible with a handful of grabbers in power. Over time, it either grows into a war with neighbors or a riot. Ukrainians have always been mentally very cunning and thirsty for everything from everyone exclusively for the sebe. What is their strength and weakness. As part of the union, this quality was useful for the good of the union as a whole (who would not say what) But as they became on their own, there was simply no one to dilute and direct this feature in a useful direction, they immediately began to have problems, and because of their mentality, first and foremost, as in all former republics.
    Nationalism is irreversibly gaining momentum, this is already evident from the communication in game chats and streams of 10-15 year olds out of 404, for example, the trend among their teenagers today is that if you do not have a copy of any German machine gun from the Second World War, then you cannot be considered a clear Ukrainian. However, love to fascism is indicative.
    For the article as a whole, the author is right. With the departure of the republics, we (the population) have nothing to suffer from phantom problems, and our oligarchs and politicians certainly do not suffer from this, all these tunes about brotherhood are only in the Russian Federation and nowhere else.
  • forester1971
    forester1971 24 December 2020 12: 21
    +2
    From the very beginning of its pseudo-independence, Ukraine began to fulfill its main task set by the West - to be anti-Russia. Everything else is wagging from side to side on the way to the above goal.
  • Tagan
    Tagan 24 December 2020 12: 27
    +1
    Quote: Avior
    Zvizdezh is full of your secret
    At 85, most of Kiev spoke Russian, and a third of Lvov.
    If you were beaten in the face, it’s not because you don’t know how to say a bow or an umbrella in Ukrainian - the latter and half of the Ukrainians didn’t know.

    I'll tell you what. I didn’t write here that in Kiev everyone spoke Ukrainian. Moreover, he tends to trust his own experience, rather than it is not clear to whom. I am saying that the trends I describe were present, especially among the representatives of Lviv. By the way, they talked to each other mainly in Ukrainian with some admixture. Against the general background, they stood out with greater cruelty. At the expense of the muzzle. Take care of yours, conjecturing who was beaten for what and for what. Yeah, you will tell here what happened to me in 85.
    1. Avior
      Avior 24 December 2020 13: 00
      +2
      I didn’t write here that in Kiev everyone spoke Ukrainian.

      I'll tell you what.
      if you don’t want to discuss a topic, don’t bring it up yourself.
      I pulled you by the tongue about the fight? we got out with him ourselves.
      And secondly, if you want to say something, say so to the point and specifically, and not write hints about "trends" and about "Kiev aborigines".
      hi
  • iouris
    iouris 24 December 2020 13: 32
    0
    Quote: What did we lose then? A friendly country? But Ukraine has never been Ukraine, only milked Russia, using the phantom pains of the Kremlin leadership. "End of quote.
    I write:
    Lost themselves (Ukraine is Russia).
    And what did you get in return? We got "partners" and "colleagues". Well, work.
  • Tagan
    Tagan 24 December 2020 13: 39
    +1
    Quote: Avior
    I didn’t write here that in Kiev everyone spoke Ukrainian.

    I'll tell you what.
    if you don’t want to discuss a topic, don’t bring it up yourself.
    I pulled you by the tongue about the fight? we got out with him ourselves.
    And secondly, if you want to say something, say so to the point and specifically, and not write hints about "trends" and about "Kiev aborigines".
    hi

    I continued your topic a little, if that.
    Not that he was going to discuss anything. Replied. Simply, if I personally observed or was a participant in some events, no one will convince me otherwise, and the question of your belief in this does not bother me at all.
    Don't think it out for me. He wrote quite clearly that it took place without any special hints. And all this exists in its present form on a large scale, not from scratch.
    1. Avior
      Avior 24 December 2020 14: 07
      +2
      you did not continue any of my topics, you just squeezed out your hints.
      hi
  • Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 24 December 2020 13: 47
    +1
    “Ukraine's accession to NATO will in no way depend on the opinion of the population - as soon as the country's largest parties resolve all their differences, integration into the alliance will be ensured. Hefty is bachimo! In 90 (91) m, the people of Ukraine declared that they wanted to stay in the Union ... This wish of the ukropolitiki was trampled on and trampled on ... ... What's more?
  • Tagan
    Tagan 24 December 2020 14: 17
    +1
    Quote: Avior
    you did not continue any of my topics, you just squeezed out your hints.
    hi

    As you wish.
  • border
    border 24 December 2020 14: 45
    0
    Quote: Guards turn
    The United States helped, the White Swan planes cut almost everything into metal. Russia has only managed to take out a few. Chernozem, round timber are being taken out, industry has been ruined and continue, although they have long gone to this, they will soon return to the past.


    Only, unlike us, their round timber has been banned for export since 2015. Smuggling is not counted
  • parusnik
    parusnik 24 December 2020 15: 01
    +2
    Author, I will surprise you. Ukraine emerged as an anti-Russian and anti-Russian project and, in principle, it could not have been otherwise. And the Baltic States, Moldova, Belarus, Georgia, and other projects arose as anti-Russian projects and, in principle, cannot be different ..
  • Konnick
    Konnick 24 December 2020 16: 30
    +2
    purchase of Krivorozhstal by ArchelorMittal

    Actually, ArcelorMitall.
    you can't reduce everything to anti-Russianness, we just happened to be close. If we turn to the origins, then the Ukrainian history itself will tell about the peculiarities of the local mentality. If we take the Cossack uprisings, such as for independence, then the reason was the desire for freebies, i.e. the main goal is to get into the registered Cossacks.
    Each such uprising began with Jewish pogroms, since the gentry themselves disdained to manage shinki, they put literate Jews there, unlike the Cossack women. There were debt books in the shanks, and the destruction of these books by minicredit organizations was a sacred cause for the Cossacks. Then there were looting of gentry estates and only then clashes with the army of some Polish magnate. And when regular troops came out to suppress the uprising, negotiations began, the insurgents betrayed their atamans, they were executed in various sophisticated ways, and the rest were recorded for allowance in the register. But over time, from the good life, new candidates appeared in the registry and history repeated itself. There was a genetic dislike for the Poles. Later, Russia developed an interest in the Black Sea region, and the Cossacks had a tendency to raid the Turks for various household goods. It seems that our interests converged, especially since the Russians fed the Cossack elite. Further, as they entered the European community, the Cossacks met, as it seemed to them, a powerful power - Sweden, and they tried to try their Cossack happiness with the Swedes, the more the country was far from them and the atamans wanted to rule independently under the distant supervision of the Scandinavians, and with Russians didn’t work that way, they’re close by. But the Russians drove the Swedes back to their historical homeland and the Cossacks had to submit to the Russian emperor.
    Russia did not remain in debt, it enslaved local grain growers and distributed them to local chieftains. Nullity only succeeded - from fire. yes into the fire. The sediment remained. And finally Katyusha dealt with the Cossack freemen, sending Cossack women from Zaporozhye to the distant, inhospitable Kuban, to guard the southern borders of Russia. The Cossacks there took up the old, requisitioning household goods with assault from the inhabitants of the neighboring countries. The Empress had to send more disciplined Don Cossacks to guard the borders, and she reserved the Cossacks only for emergency assistance.
    Years passed, wars took place. There were practically no peasant uprisings, but sometimes there were pogroms of their creditors out of old memory. Then the revolution broke out. A new rich owner has appeared, the Germans, the rich owner should have rich servants, thought the former "free" slaves. But other rich Europeans prevailed, and then Russians and their intellectual friends, so unloved at the genetic level, Shinkari, came to power again. And when the time came to give my cattle to a common farm, a "trick" worked here, and why would I lead my bull or a cow for everyone, I would slaughter it and sell the meat on the market. And I put the bread into the hole, but then the term of the end arose, the word Ivayu in the imperative mood and I had to eat grain with ergot, which, thanks to an unexpected reaction, became a hallucigen from mushrooms. By the way, this trouble covered the fertile Kuban, again genetics worked. In the Don, Tersk and other Orenburg regions, there was no such misfortune, as in the Russian non-black earth. Of course, the Russians are to blame, they did not slaughter their cows, but resignedly led them to collective farms, in contrast to the recalcitrant Ukrainians.
    Again the war, again "the hope for a new order", but everything fell into place, the Germans did not dissolve the collective farms, they did not give freedom, the trick did not work.
    And then came the "saints" of the 90s. Hello, rich Europe, goodbye to poor Russia ... the search for new rich owners .. And then you know.
  • hermit
    hermit 24 December 2020 18: 11
    +1
    Russia has not lost Ukraine. She handed it over to the States in exchange for the Crimea. Half of Ukrainians hate Putin for what he did. The second is for what he did NOT do.
  • BAI
    BAI 24 December 2020 18: 18
    +2
    Well, we have lost the primordially Russian territories that have never been Ukraine: Kharkov, Donbass, Odessa.
  • high
    high 24 December 2020 20: 26
    0
    [
    b] Perhaps someone will be surprised, but the official desire to join the North Atlantic Alliance, the Ukrainian authorities showed in the first half of the 90s [/ b]

    Ukraine started talking about joining NATO and recorded it in the Law, after the loss of Crimea and Donbass.
    I must admit, if Ukraine were a NATO member, it would not have lost the Crimea and Donbass ..
  • Egor-dis
    Egor-dis 25 December 2020 00: 32
    +2
    Something rotten trend started at VO. That Egorka Machs with her article "Do we need all of Ukraine?" Now here is Igor Kudryavtsev "to lose what they did not have" ....
    For the alternatively gifted - yes, you have never had Ukraine. Because the modern ukraine proclaims itself the successor of the ZUNR and the UPR who have entered into mating with it in the early 20th century. But what we really lost was the MULTINATIONAL SOCIALIST REPUBLIC IN THE SOVIET UNION. In which the racial ukpy, in the most (favorable for them) times, did not make more than 30%. And in which the Russian part of the population was made dependent on the nationalists just at the suggestion of the Bolsheviks.
    But the Mach-Kudryavtsevs are not interested. What is easier to draw a conclusion about Russophobia on the basis of the selfish interests of the elites and arrogantly declare that the bad people did not knock out, so and so, the national elites. Have you picked up a lot of your Berezovsky / Abramovich / Khodorkovsky / Kudrins / Yavlinsky people in a compartment with the seven bankers? Or maybe you knocked EBNa? Also the people are not like that?
    No, "comrades". It's not about the people, but about the inability of Russia (and of individual Russians) to defend their national interests. When Americans need something, they set a goal and achieve it by any means and by any means. It is no secret that the very same Ukrainian national elite was dragged up to power by the Americans. And tied and built. Therefore, we have what we have. And only in Russia for some reason they expect that in the near abroad "themselves, everything themselves" will knock off the "aggressive minority" (yeah, behind which the US and the EU stand), imbued with the spirit of the "Russian world" and then, perhaps, "we will think are you Russian enough "and is it worth doing business with you.
    Gentlemen! It doesn't work that way. While you snort and express your grievances, your enemies are spilling over the population of the near abroad. And quite effective. Not only Ukraine but also Belarus and Armenia with Georgia and Kazakhstan are an example. I hope that this will also reach the fly-kudryavtsevs.
    1. Yuri Tverdokhleb
      Yuri Tverdokhleb 25 December 2020 10: 34
      0
      We will always lose to the amerikos and zapados, for the reason that they work as a crowbar, against which there is no reception, and we have charters, constitutions, notes of protest.