Military Review

Tighten the nuts, answer for the words!

494

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Wait! Deputy Dmitry Vyatkin submitted a proposal to the State Duma to amend Article 128.1 of the RF Criminal Code. The proposal is not just like that, but in the rank of a bill.

And if this bill is adopted (and for some reason I am sure they will), for libel on the Internet there will be a fine of up to 1 million rubles or imprisonment up to two years.

The bill has been published in the electronic database of the State Duma of the Russian Federation. So who cares - everything is there.

So, libel. I.e,

"Dissemination of deliberately false information, discrediting the honor and dignity of another person or undermining his reputation",

will, according to the initiative, be punished with a fine of up to 500 thousand rubles or in the amount of the wage or other income of the convicted person for a period of up to 6 months, or compulsory labor for a period of up to 160 hours.

Sounds impressive, doesn't it? How do you like this:

“Slander contained in a public speech, publicly displayed work, mass media or committed publicly using information and telecommunication networks, including the Internet, as well as in relation to several persons, including individually undefined, is punished with a fine of up to one million rubles or in the amount of the wage or other income of the convicted person for a period of up to one year, either by compulsory labor for a term of up to two hundred and forty hours, or by forced labor for a term of up to two years, or by arrest for a term of up to two months, or by imprisonment for a term of up to two years".


This is, let's say, a clarification. Go ahead.

For libel committed with the use of official position, there will be a fine of up to 2 million rubles or in the amount of wages or other income of the convicted person for a period of up to 2 years, or compulsory labor for up to 320 hours, or forced labor for up to 3 years, or arrest for up to 4 months, or imprisonment for up to 3 years.

The use of official position, as I understand it, applies to media representatives as well.

“For slander that a person suffers from a disease that poses a danger to others, there will be a fine of up to 3 million rubles or in the amount of the wages or other income of the convicted person for a period of up to 3 years, or compulsory labor for up to 400 hours, or forced labor for up to 4 years, or by arrest for a period of 3 months to 6 months, or by imprisonment up to 4 years. "


An interesting addition. Especially in our time of coronavirus and other delights.

“Slander, combined with the accusation of a person of committing a crime against sexual inviolability and sexual freedom of the person, or of a grave or especially grave crime, is punishable by a fine of up to five million rubles or in the amount of the convicted person's salary or other income for a period of up to three years, or up to four hundred and eighty hours, either by forced labor for up to five years, or by arrest for a period of four months to six months, or by imprisonment for up to five years. "


The government of the Russian Federation supported the project. The Supreme Court of the Russian Federation noted in its conclusion that the proposal to criminalize public libel or similar insults on the Internet

"No conceptual objections".

What can be said about this?


The question is not even how they will be punished. This is the third question. Second question: "Whom?" And the first one: "Who?" Very, very much depends on the answers to these questions. Including the future of our Internet.

In general, it is already possible to understand that the Internet, where there was such freedom that, as they say, they could easily send somewhere, this Internet is gradually disappearing into history... And not far off is the moment when, in order to express your opinion openly, you will have to introduce yourself in full, and not as anyone.

But so far there is more than enough slander on the Internet. And you definitely need to do something about it.

Old-timers won't let you lie, there was such a Scooper on our website. He taught everyone to live by talking about his business and how much he pays taxes and in what luxurious penthouse he lives. But when he finally got to us, it turned out almost “by accident” that his “penthouse” was an apartment on the fifth floor of the Khrushchev building on Zeleny Prospekt. Well, it was about the same with his business. Lies, in a word. And so Sanker disappeared for good.

But lying to oneself in our country is not yet prohibited, if you do it without crossing certain boundaries. Do not paint awards, etc. But slandering about others will gradually have to be weaned.

It is clear that not everyone will like this, but what to do? Again, I won't go far for examples. We have a libel lover too. You all know him, a man with a thousand reincarnations, "Meehan", he is Vitaly in the world. Here, in terms of the new law, it will not be very nice, on occasion.

Vitaly is very fond of telling stories about other people. In fairy tales, these truths are completely absent, but Vitaly really likes the spread of completely unsubstantiated inventions. And there are people who "plus" it, lovers of "fried" content.

Perhaps this is just the way out. Although it looks very Russian: huge fines, criminal penalties ...

The examples given are particulars.

Being polite is cheaper


But in fact, in our country everything can happen quite the opposite. That is, everything will depend on who and how will implement this law. Agree, slander is a very, very delicate matter. And it is just necessary to investigate each case not like, say, theft. If only because it is possible to slander a person out of ignorance, or because of the wrong interpretation of facts.

Another question: won't the new law just become a way to settle scores between those who can afford it and those who stepped on their sore spot?

Here, as an example, we can cite all the same Rogozin, who is now actively suing several media outlets, who called him "the gravedigger of Russian cosmonautics."

And in the light of the new law, if it were adopted, Rogozin's opponents have not very flattering prospects. In reality, the word "gravedigger", spoken about Rogozin, is not so much slander as allegory. But alas, now for this it will be possible to easily run into huge fines: after all, Rogozin did not really dig a grave for astronautics. And he did not bury it. So here, as they say, there are options.

By the way, we also have a lot of "hot" guys on our site who are capable of original statements. Now usually everything ends with a warning, maximum - a ban for a week, but then ...

You know, it will be difficult to resist the temptation of someone who calls you “feeding from the hands of the State Department”, “receiving a salary from ...” (there are many options) and so on. All this will be slander. And even anonymizers, alas, will not protect your anonymity if someone wants to.

So, given our laws, and especially their implementation, it is worth gradually gaining culture. Honestly, it won't hurt. Or maybe he will also save money.

But what really pleases on the site is that this year a huge number of people were registered, indicating their first and last names in the registration. This is also an indicator of openness.

In general, the law is law, and of course they will pass it. How it will be executed - we'll see.

But all the same, you must gradually accustom yourself to write culturally and humanly. Respecting worthy opponents.

Well, it's worth carefully studying the new article on defamation. Just in case.

In our country, the case is different ...
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  1. Svarog
    Svarog 18 December 2020 10: 04
    +24
    Wait! Deputy Dmitry Vyatkin submitted a proposal to the State Duma to amend Article 128.1 of the RF Criminal Code. The proposal is not just like that, but in the rank of a bill.

    Freedom becomes "more", the more the people "love" the government, the more the government reciprocates ..
    In our country, the case is different ...

    This is the whole catch .. it may happen that they just sue you .. it seems that he did not slander, but someone decided .. that it’s still libel .. And then what .. and then, of course, you will prove (if it was not slander) but you will spend a lot on lawyers.
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 18 December 2020 10: 09
      +52
      The government needs not just slaves, but dumb slaves.
      1. lucul
        lucul 18 December 2020 10: 13
        -24%
        The government needs not just slaves, but dumb slaves.

        So they lived like that before - they worked for workdays, and a word could not be said against the Soviet regime)))
        1. awdrgy
          awdrgy 18 December 2020 11: 26
          +12
          Let me amend - the technologies were thinner, which accordingly implied some closeness of personal space What is still possible and now, however, is already suspicious since the absence of a snitch in your pocket and a house on the table is not typical for the overwhelming mass of the population
        2. Alexander Kopychev
          Alexander Kopychev 18 December 2020 12: 10
          +15
          Quote: lucul
          So they lived like that before - they worked for workdays, and a word could not be said against the Soviet regime)))

          And what, in fact, was to present to the Soviet government? We have already forgotten ... Today we have a whole puppet theater at our service. If you want - applaud, if you want - whistle, the fine just pay on time and business ...
        3. The comment was deleted.
          1. dauria
            dauria 18 December 2020 14: 06
            +7
            So bark further from under your gateway


            In your phrase, the whole problem is indicated. If a person, having connected to the Internet, understands that he is not in a safe gateway, but climbed onto the podium in the square and speaks to the crowd ...
            And everyone sees him and knows how to find him .. In short, there will be no anonymity - there will be no problems. And the new law on libel will not be needed - the old ones will do too.
            1. RealPilot
              RealPilot 19 December 2020 16: 00
              0
              Anonymity, yes, "liberates".

              And slanderers, and not only, sometimes just offenders. Many very worthy people suffered from this, some were even driven to suicide! And this is not a joke, this is a problem.

              Politeness on the Internet directly depends on whether a person introduces himself as his real name. Well, or not - many people are naturally normal wink

              Nevertheless, the black sheep spoil the whole flock.
              This is especially typical for our "opposition" from the entourage of the twice resurrected newbie-beauty blogger ... There is darkness!

              And those who fanned hysteria, moreover, with false statements about the actions of the authorities on the coronavirus? They brought harm to the health of those who carelessly believed, who otherwise would have followed the measures, and would not get sick, and would not die. There are victims of this lie, yes!

              And what about the "legalization" of the stuffing of foreign special services by means of compromising evidence and blackmail through local scammers, is that unworthy of investigation?

              It is better to check and honestly punish your officials / police / security officials according to the law, but not to lose sight of the slanderers - after all, among adequate information about crimes, there is also absolute vain.

              And what about lies and slander after terrorist attacks / disasters / fires? One deliberately inflated hysteria over "Winter Cherry" is worth it. And the explosions in transport and other events? There malice, slander and hatred beat from every crevice. And vile and intentionally. Without respect for both the victims themselves and their families.
              At the same time, libel hinders the investigation and elimination of the consequences of these terrible crimes.

              In general, the direction is correct. The laws are designed to adequately regulate public relations.
              Is there a problem? We need a law!

              But law enforcement practice is already the next moment, and no less important.
              Here we need a healthy civil society (our own, not for foreign grants), control over law enforcement agencies and the executive branch.
              By the way, the Internet is quite capable of helping with this!
              1. Vladimir Mashkov
                Vladimir Mashkov 19 December 2020 20: 02
                -3
                For some reason, some people consider it a good form to scold allwhat makes power. Is it good, so so, is it bad - EVERYTHING, in their opinion, bad! Including this change in the existing law on libel, which increases the punishment for an offense. Why is this happening? Because people, due to their illiteracy, confuse anarchy and permissiveness with democracy and freedom.

                Why is this change being made to the law? A need arose: cases of slander have become more frequent, when many, not fearing a small punishment, fearlessly flog obvious nonsense and accuse anyone without proof - slander. Is this a good innovation in the law? I suppose - good: people will think more about what they are saying and be afraid to talk nonsense in public and on the Internet.

                Who will punish? Court. Whom? Slanderers. Many fear unfair punishment. Yes, there are unfair and dishonest judges pretending to be objective people. In public they are honest, but in private they are scoundrels and scoundrels. But there are still few of them. In addition, there is a higher court for each judge.

                Some people believe that full disclosure of data, publishing only under their own names is a panacea for libel. I guess this will not last long and it will help little. Why? Because many people have a lot of good reasons not to register under their own names. And this is one of the advantages of the Internet, which is used by almost everyone. And those who break the rules can be easily identified and attracted, which has been constantly demonstrated to us lately. And the one who is engaged in slander will also slander under his own name.
          2. Antagonist
            Antagonist 19 December 2020 01: 27
            +12
            Quote: Alexander Suvorov
            Yes, you can of course say everything

            Not everything ... Art. 319 of the Criminal Code for insulting an authority and part 3 of Art. 20.1 of the Administrative Code has not been canceled.
            Quote: Alexander Suvorov
            Much your power listened to the people when the retirement age

            She did not listen to the people at all. I just took it and did it our way, but we were presented with a fact ...
        4. Aag
          Aag 18 December 2020 19: 46
          +6
          Quote: lucul
          The government needs not just slaves, but dumb slaves.

          So they lived like that before - they worked for workdays, and a word could not be said against the Soviet regime)))

          As it did not feel discomfort, even adjusted for age.
          And most importantly, there was a feeling (and prerequisites) that it would be better further, and, among other things, it depends on me!
          Now, - can you estimate how many specialists work in structures that are not specialized for them? Accordingly, those who have lost their qualifications ... For the most part, this is not their fault! (Well, this is about "those who did not fit into the market"). Maybe just because the top is also not specialized? (MO-Serdyukov, Roscosmos-Rogozin)? ...
          1. lucul
            lucul 18 December 2020 19: 49
            -9
            As it did not feel discomfort, even adjusted for age.

            What, did you work for workdays? After all, there could easily be punished for words against the Soviet regime. It was at the time of Gorbachev that it was possible to throw mud at the Soviet power without hesitation, but in the time of Stalin it was possible to sit down.
            1. Aag
              Aag 18 December 2020 20: 01
              +3
              Quote: lucul
              As it did not feel discomfort, even adjusted for age.

              What, did you work for workdays? After all, there could easily be punished for words against the Soviet regime. It was at the time of Gorbachev that it was possible to throw mud at the Soviet power without hesitation, but in the time of Stalin it was possible to sit down.

              No. I wrote about the times between Stalin and Gorbachev. Sorry if you meant only Stalin's times.
              I meant the times of the USSR, and the present.
      2. marchcat
        marchcat 18 December 2020 10: 18
        +45
        And what should the promises of officials be equated to: to deliberate lies or slander (not the possibility of fulfillment for certain reasons)?
        1. Svarog
          Svarog 18 December 2020 10: 24
          +28
          Quote: marchcat
          And what should the promises of officials be equated to: to deliberate lies or slander (not the possibility of fulfillment for certain reasons)?

          This is a very good question .. in fact, everything should start with it. Responsibility should be borne for election promises or promises given to the public and not fulfilled .. But as we know it has been reset .. "Gentlemen" write laws for themselves and this is capitalism in all its manifestations .. it will only get worse ..
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 11: 16
            +10
            Quote: Svarog

            This is a very good question .. in fact, everything should start with it. Responsibility should be borne for election promises or promises given to the public and not fulfilled .. But as we know it has been reset .. "Gentlemen" write laws for themselves and this is capitalism in all its manifestations .. it will only get worse ..

            Namesake, I do not agree with you. It is impossible to nullify something that never happened - responsibility.
            And at the expense of promises - you are right. Our ancestors said - "I gave my word, hold on, did not give my word, hold on."
            1. aleksejkabanets
              aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 12: 16
              +19
              Quote: Krasnoyarsk
              Our ancestors said - "I gave my word, hold on, did not give my word, hold on."

              Now it is, the "man" gave his word, and then took it back, he is the master of his word.
          2. Aag
            Aag 18 December 2020 19: 51
            +1
            Quote: Svarog
            Quote: marchcat
            And what should the promises of officials be equated to: to deliberate lies or slander (not the possibility of fulfillment for certain reasons)?

            This is a very good question .. in fact, everything should start with it. Responsibility should be borne for election promises or promises given to the public and not fulfilled .. But as we know it has been reset .. "Gentlemen" write laws for themselves and this is capitalism in all its manifestations .. it will only get worse ..

            You are probably aware of the salaries of judges. Accordingly, their houses, dachas are in the neighborhood with those in power ...
          3. A_Lex
            A_Lex 18 December 2020 19: 52
            +6
            "Gentlemen" write laws for themselves and this is capitalism in all its manifestations .. it will only get worse ..


            I noticed a strange tendency - I almost immediately criticize capitalism. Although if you think about it, gentlemen wrote laws for themselves and before capitalism. Capitalism is not the problem. The problem is gentlemen.
            1. Antagonist
              Antagonist 19 December 2020 01: 41
              +8
              Quote: A_Lex
              Capitalism is not the problem. The problem is gentlemen.

              This is how gaspads appear under capitalism
              1. A_Lex
                A_Lex 19 December 2020 02: 24
                +3
                This is how gaspads appear under capitalism


                I mean that under the slave system and under feudalism there were gentlemen too. It turns out that economic systems of management replace each other, while gentlemen are a constant and unchanging phenomenon. So capitalism is not a cause at all, but a means, while the reason is gentlemen.
              2. major147
                major147 19 December 2020 20: 13
                -3
                Quote: Antagonist
                Quote: A_Lex
                Capitalism is not the problem. The problem is gentlemen.

                This is how gaspads appear under capitalism

                If you change "gentlemen" to "comrades" the amount will not change.
          4. for
            for 19 December 2020 01: 48
            +2
            Quote: Svarog
            "Gentlemen" write laws for themselves and this is capitalism in all its manifestations .. it will only get worse ..

            Conditions for the release of officials from responsibility for corruption are named

            According to the explanatory note, officials are exempt from liability if the violation of anti-corruption restrictions and prohibitions occurred for reasons beyond their control. In the document, such circumstances include natural disasters, mass diseases, strikes, military actions and terrorist acts. It is noted that a special commission will determine whether there was a direct causal relationship between the occurrence of these circumstances and the inability to comply with anti-corruption requirements.

            Already connected.
        2. Blacksmith 55
          Blacksmith 55 18 December 2020 10: 29
          -6
          This is not only a problem for Russia, it is a global problem.
          Therefore, it is necessary to decide at this level.
          But there will certainly be (will be) who will be against.
          1. awdrgy
            awdrgy 18 December 2020 11: 32
            +1
            Yes, I agree with you. I think that the decision will be cardinal if, of course, the good wins. It is enough to come up with a way to eliminate the Internet in principle (without the possibility of recovery) Of course, some genius will be required, but God always helps at the last moment
            1. Blacksmith 55
              Blacksmith 55 18 December 2020 11: 39
              +4
              I also answer those who put the cons.
              It can be argued from abroad that someone stole a sausage stroller yesterday in a store. Fake can be punished within the same country.
              It is almost impossible to get this person abroad. Therefore, I wrote that this is a global problem, and it must be solved by all states of the planet.
              But for some, using fake data is simply beneficial, so it will be difficult to achieve mutual understanding and unity on this issue.
              1. awdrgy
                awdrgy 18 December 2020 11: 55
                -3
                I didn’t put it, I don’t like it. But I completely agree with you that this is a global problem and it must be solved. Certainly, radically Half measures are not effective here. but you need to think (the task is not easy to put it mildly) We lived without him before and somehow nothing, did not lose weight
              2. Alf
                Alf 18 December 2020 20: 33
                +3
                Quote: Blacksmith 55
                It's almost impossible to get this person abroad.

                It would be a wish ...
            2. aleksejkabanets
              aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 12: 20
              +10
              Quote: awdrgy
              Yes, I agree with you. I think that the decision will be cardinal if, of course, the good wins. It is enough to come up with a way to eliminate the Internet in principle (without the possibility of recovery) Of course, some genius will be required, but God always helps at the last moment

              Do you want to win electricity, or internal combustion engines, for example? If you want to "return to basics", then start with yourself, club, cave, stone ax and forward into the woods.
              1. awdrgy
                awdrgy 18 December 2020 12: 48
                -1
                Well, it is much more difficult to slander with their help, let's say so Yes, and they have been known for a long time, but there were no problems of slander with them. You shouldn't be exaggerating so much. Why go too far? If there is a problem, it is necessary to solve it and solve it effectively.And this solution is very effective and no stone age will happen in this case, notice
                1. aleksejkabanets
                  aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 12: 58
                  +9
                  Quote: awdrgy
                  Well, slandering with their help is much more difficult, let's say so Yes, and they have been known for a long time, but there was no problem of slander with them

                  Was it difficult to throw an anonymous letter in the mailbox in 1937?
                  Quote: awdrgy
                  In vain you exaggerate so. Why go too far? If there is a problem, you need to solve it and solve it effectively

                  You can peel potatoes with a knife, or you can slaughter your neighbor. Will we ban knives?
                  Quote: awdrgy
                  And this solution is very effective and no stone age will happen, mind you

                  Is it okay that all those documentation is only on the Internet? My children learn on the Internet how to be here? When I did a coursework in my youth, I counted the planetary reducer. I followed every GOST to the library, and ran to standardization. Now do you propose to do the same? The Internet is an extremely powerful resource. They need to be used wisely, not like cats or writing slander. And children should be taught this from a young age.
                  1. awdrgy
                    awdrgy 18 December 2020 13: 32
                    -7
                    The anonymous letter in the mailbox is personal and not public In addition, you can not open it (you do not open spam) And the corner of the envelope is also exaggerated (as I wrote above) And about the education of the then and the present, one could not argue Perhaps ( and this alternative reality cannot be denied) if you didn’t need to run after guests, you would like the vidos on youtube Yes, and it’s good for health, otherwise the youth are overweight and dystrophans with gastrointestinal problems And it also allows you to take free (extra) time which at a young age is spent mainly on all sorts of stupidity. Quite a lot of positive aspects. And in contrast to this, saving time? which will still be wasted (of course in the general mass of the population) which is ineffective
                    1. aleksejkabanets
                      aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 15: 14
                      +6
                      Quote: awdrgy
                      Anonymous mailbox is personal and not public

                      Anonymous in the NKVD harmless?
                      Quote: awdrgy
                      There are quite a few positives ...

                      What are the positive aspects of disconnecting the internet? This is the same tool as, say, an adjustable wrench or an electric drill. If you do not know how to use it and think that it is needed only to "like cats", then these are your purely personal problems. I have already offered you the option of "returning to basics", just start with yourself, please.
                      Quote: awdrgy
                      Yes, and it is good for health, otherwise the youth are overweight and dystrophanes with gastrointestinal problems

                      Tell me, are there many free sports schools today? How does the state conduct medical examination of schoolchildren? How is the state developing mass sports today? Maybe this is the root of the problem, and not the Internet? You need to teach people to work with the Internet, otherwise they only know how to sit in VK and like cats. Look at a friend's greenhouse, he controls the temperature with his phone, is it bad or what? Scientific and technological progress cannot be slowed down.
                      1. awdrgy
                        awdrgy 20 December 2020 22: 36
                        0
                        Well, this is understandable Anyway, it is necessary to destroy As a pretext and slander will do drinks
                    2. Whatislove
                      Whatislove 19 December 2020 17: 08
                      +2
                      I found here, an advocate of holiness. You don't worry about the youth, but about yourself. And in general, what Leshy do you use the Internet, if it is supposedly bad?
                      1. awdrgy
                        awdrgy 20 December 2020 22: 30
                        +1
                        Okay, let's go. Then another topic has opened. Good questions you ask No answer Is that okay?
                  2. Aag
                    Aag 18 December 2020 15: 46
                    +1
                    Quote: aleksejkabanets
                    Quote: awdrgy
                    Well, slandering with their help is much more difficult, let's say so Yes, and they have been known for a long time, but there was no problem of slander with them

                    Was it difficult to throw an anonymous letter in the mailbox in 1937?
                    Quote: awdrgy
                    In vain you exaggerate so. Why go too far? If there is a problem, you need to solve it and solve it effectively

                    You can peel potatoes with a knife, or you can slaughter your neighbor. Will we ban knives?
                    Quote: awdrgy
                    And this solution is very effective and no stone age will happen, mind you

                    Is it okay that all those documentation is only on the Internet? My children learn on the Internet how to be here? When I did a coursework in my youth, I counted the planetary reducer. I followed every GOST to the library, and ran to standardization. Now do you propose to do the same? The Internet is an extremely powerful resource. They need to be used wisely, not like cats or writing slander. And children should be taught this from a young age.

                    Judging by the cons, many disagree with you. I would like to know what exactly and who.
                    Here it is anonymity in action!))
                    1. aleksejkabanets
                      aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 17: 59
                      +4
                      Quote: AAG
                      Judging by the cons, many disagree with you. I would like to know what exactly and who.
                      Here it is anonymity in action!))

                      How does this relate to the subject of our dispute (Internet disconnection)?
                      1. Aag
                        Aag 18 December 2020 18: 25
                        +2
                        Quote: aleksejkabanets
                        Quote: AAG
                        Judging by the cons, many disagree with you. I would like to know what exactly and who.
                        Here it is anonymity in action!))

                        How does this relate to the subject of our dispute (Internet disconnection)?

                        Have you looked at which of your comments is mine written?
                        I was outraged by the abundance of minuses (at that time) hung on you for a completely adequate justification for the presence of an Internet (as a convenient effective tool).
                        Before that, the conversation was about anonymity ... Minus was given to you quite anonymously. I wrote about this ...
                        What did you think? hi
                      2. aleksejkabanets
                        aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 18: 53
                        +4
                        hi
                        Quote: AAG
                        Have you looked at which of your comments is mine written?
                        I was outraged by the abundance of minuses (at that time) hung on you for a completely adequate justification for the presence of an Internet (as a convenient effective tool).
                        Before that, the conversation was about anonymity ... Minus was given to you quite anonymously. I wrote about this ...
                        What did you think?

                        Forgive me, generously. I left the computer, but came, saw the comment and thought that it was my opponent who was writing to me. My inattention, sorry again.
                      3. Aag
                        Aag 18 December 2020 18: 59
                        +2
                        Nothing terrible happened. (Working moment) drinks On the contrary ...
                        Well, you even indiscriminately at your opponents, please do not "rush"!
                  3. dauria
                    dauria 18 December 2020 18: 39
                    +3
                    How does this relate to the subject of our dispute (Internet disconnection)?


                    Forgive me for interfering .. In my opinion, it is directly related. And the first shoots of the solution to the problem "how not to turn off the Internet" are already visible.
                    It's simple - a person, entering the Sberbank website, loses anonymity. He closely follows the numbers, letters and all his writing ... laughing
                    So it is necessary to divide the Internet into two zones - real without anonymous, where you can see the person writing (gender, age, height, official photo - everything that we see when we speak with a person on the street, even the name is optional, you can just number). And the anonymous part, where everything is allowed - deception, lies, insults, fakes. In short, so that a person clearly understands that he is not in real life, but in a computer chimera, a game, if you like. Over time, this part will shrink to lovers of "dangerous sex" laughing
                    And then many have blurred the line.
                  4. aleksejkabanets
                    aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 18: 59
                    +4
                    Quote: dauria
                    So it is necessary to divide the Internet into two zones - real without anonymous, where you can see the person writing (gender, age, photo, city, even a name is optional, you can just have a number). And the anonymous part, where everything is allowed - deception, lies, insults, fakes. In short, so that a person clearly understands that he is not in real life, but in a computer chimera, a game, if you like. Over time, this part will shrink to lovers of "dangerous sex"

                    This is impossible by definition. I can have even here, at least 100 ak, only it is not necessary. Carders make excellent purchases using someone else's data from a card all over the world, it will always be possible to remain anonymous. This is such a technology. Yes, the programmer writes the site. never trusts data from the browser.
                  5. dauria
                    dauria 18 December 2020 19: 12
                    +3
                    This is impossible by definition.


                    But you keep electronic money in the bank, despite the risk of theft wink Anything is possible, give me time. Who would have thought in 81st that a consumptive personal computer on the 8088 process with one floppy disk drive of 360 kb would turn the world upside down.
                    By the way, the 55AA signature bytes at the end of the boot sector are still preserved. wink
                    Well, and swindlers - so the world has not lived for a moment without them since the days of Egypt and earlier ...
                    acceptable level of harm from them.
                  6. aleksejkabanets
                    aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 19: 21
                    +4
                    Well, yes, BG once said: "640 kilobytes is enough for everyone." The eternal competition of "shell and armor".
                  7. major147
                    major147 19 December 2020 20: 29
                    0
                    Quote: dauria
                    By the way, the 55AA signature bytes at the end of the boot sector are still preserved.

                    I have two warnings for obscene language on the site. Don't go my way stop
                2. major147
                  major147 19 December 2020 20: 27
                  +1
                  Quote: aleksejkabanets
                  This is impossible by definition.

                  Why not? Create a site for those who want to "bark" at each other anonymously, and let them "bark", and the savings bank, government services, etc. work on personal data. Another issue is the safety of personal data ....
              2. The eye of the crying
                The eye of the crying 24 December 2020 11: 24
                0
                Quote: dauria
                Over time, this part will shrink to lovers of "dangerous sex


                Who knows. The "real" zone may also shrink.
        3. major147
          major147 19 December 2020 20: 18
          0
          Quote: aleksejkabanets
          You can peel potatoes with a knife, or you can slaughter your neighbor. Will we ban knives?

          You have correctly noticed. So they want to prohibit the "neighbor to cut" by law.
      3. Antagonist
        Antagonist 19 December 2020 01: 55
        +6
        Quote: awdrgy
        if there is a problem, you need to solve it and solve it effectively

        And what about the press, TV, radio? To eliminate them as a breeding ground for lies and slander? And I'm not exaggerating. The problem is not only and not so much the Internet. The problem, I think, lies in human culture. What are lies and slander? In fact, this is gossip that is spread by unprincipled people devoid of universal human morality.
  2. strelokmira
    strelokmira 18 December 2020 23: 32
    +2
    It is enough to come up with a way to eliminate the Internet in principle (without the possibility of recovery)

    Here I am entirely for, but unfortunately, the government is not stupid and they understand well what will happen to them in a month, and to similar initiators wink
    So they will not do the test in the head, do not hope
    1. Antagonist
      Antagonist 19 December 2020 01: 58
      +6
      Quote: strelokmira
      understand well what will happen to them in a month, and to similar initiators

      Raising the retirement age suggests otherwise. So nothing will happen to the initiators.
  • Insurgent
    Insurgent 18 December 2020 10: 57
    +3
    Quote: marchcat
    And what should the promises of officials be equated to: to deliberate lies or slander (not the possibility of fulfillment for certain reasons)?

    It would be correct to equate to professional incompetence and "incomplete official", but in modern Russia the system of power is structured differently, and the normal procedure for assessing the qualities of an official in his affairs does not work.
    1. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 18 December 2020 12: 19
      +8
      For example, someone wrote that officials or the authorities do nothing ...
      And then what, any official or any government representative can sue?
      Of course it can file, but will the court accept it? In short ----
      SILENTIUM!
      Shut up, hide and hide
      And your feelings and dreams ---
      Let it be in the depths of the soul
      Get up and go ona
      Silent as stars in the night ---
      Admire them --- and be quiet.

      How does the heart express itself?
      How else can another understand you?
      Will he understand how you live?
      A spoken thought is a lie.
      Exploding, you will disturb the keys, ---
      Eat them --- and be quiet.

      Only be able to live in yourself ----
      There is a whole world in your soul
      Mysteriously magical thoughts;
      They will be stunned by outdoor noise,
      Daytime rays will disperse, ---
      Listen to their singing --- and be silent! ..
      1829 --- early 1830s, Fedor Tyutchev
      December 14 (26), 1825 The Decembrist Uprising on the Senate Square.
      1. Insurgent
        Insurgent 18 December 2020 12: 24
        -1
        Quote: Reptiloid
        1829 --- early 1830s, Fedor Tyutchev

        By the way, myself state official.

        1. Reptiloid
          Reptiloid 18 December 2020 13: 07
          +3
          It is known that Fyodor Tyutchev wrote many poems during various meetings. He wrote immediately, without correcting anything, without redoing anything.
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 19 December 2020 14: 28
          +1
          Quote: Insurgent
          By the way, the state official himself.

          Not just an official, but the future senior censor of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, later - the chairman of the Foreign Censorship Committee of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. In short, a satrap and a strangler of free speech. smile
          1. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid 20 December 2020 13: 23
            +1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            future

            Quote: Alexey RA
            Quote: Insurgent
            By the way, the state official himself.

            Not just an official, but the future senior censor of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, later - the chairman of the Foreign Censorship Committee of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. In short, a satrap and a strangler of free speech. smile

            Really, pre-dismissal ------Keep quiet, hide and thai, and your feelings and dreams
      2. bober1982
        bober1982 18 December 2020 13: 47
        -4
        Quote: Reptiloid
        SILENTIUM!

        Quote: Reptiloid
        In short ---

        Quote: Reptiloid
        December 14 (26), 1825 The Decembrist Uprising on the Senate Square.

        Dmitry, and where are the officials, the court, the Decembrists, and this poem? There is no connection here.
        This is one of Tyutchev's early poems, which was strongly influenced by his acquaintance with his future wife, Eleanor Peterson (née Countess Botmer)
        Fyodor Ivanovich had strong emotional and romantic feelings of love.
        And, you are interpreting something incomprehensible about idle officials.
        1. Reptiloid
          Reptiloid 18 December 2020 14: 36
          +2
          I write about what I remember in connection with the article. I have the right to my thoughts laughing laughing For a long time after the suppression of the Decembrist uprising, there was an atmosphere of censorship, perlustration, secret surveillance, and every other ...
          Vladimir! It has long been noted that the great works of the classics over time can acquire a different meaning, and descendants can understand them differently. There were many examples of this. There are modern authors who talk about the foresight of distant events in the works of great people. For example, I immediately remembered the following names: Vladimir Vysotsky, Alexander Blok, Valery Bryusov, A.S. Pushkin ... And also: Harry Garrison, Robert Sheckley, Herbert Wells ...
          The Russian language is "as alive as life". I wrote about my thoughts. And you --- can write about your experiences, including love ones.
          1. bober1982
            bober1982 18 December 2020 15: 39
            +2
            Quote: Reptiloid
            It has long been noted that the great works of the classics over time can acquire a different meaning, and descendants can understand them differently.

            - take me, cabby, along the echoing pavement ...
            Also from the classics.
            Something surged.
            1. Aag
              Aag 18 December 2020 20: 17
              +2
              Quote: bober1982
              Quote: Reptiloid
              It has long been noted that the great works of the classics over time can acquire a different meaning, and descendants can understand them differently.

              - take me, cabby, along the echoing pavement ...
              Also from the classics.
              Something surged.

              Apparently, the stars are located like that))), - today many commentators are kindly burning.))
          2. zenion
            zenion 19 December 2020 22: 50
            +1
            Reptiloid. How could you think that this person wants to tell you - I'm not sure, don't overtake. Your opponent reminds one of a woman's complaint to her mother about what her husband told her. Mom, he called me. Daughter, how and when? Mom, he said that I told him a lie. Since I told him a lie, then I lied to him. Since I lied to him, it means I shit on him. And only dogs are bullshitting. Mom, so he called me a bitch.
            1. Reptiloid
              Reptiloid 20 December 2020 03: 43
              +1
              Quote: zenion
              Reptiloid. How could you think that this person wants to tell you - I'm not sure, don't overtake. Your opponent reminds one of a woman's complaint to her mother about what her husband told her. Mom, he called me. Daughter, how and when? Mom, he said that I told him a lie. Since I told him a lie, then I lied to him. Since I lied to him, it means I shit on him. And only dogs are bullshitting. Mom, so he called me a bitch.

              The thing is that Vladimir and I have known each other's beliefs for a long time. In many respects they differ. Sometimes, surprisingly ----- it happens, we agree. And what we don't always understand is understandable, the difference in age and everything else, this often happens here. That is why the site is interesting --- different people
        2. sniperino
          sniperino 19 December 2020 11: 31
          -2
          Quote: bober1982
          Fyodor Ivanovich had strong emotional and romantic feelings of love.
          The reptiles are in shock - the kublo will be covered, and you are talking about some incomprehensible experiences ...
          1. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid 20 December 2020 03: 46
            +1
            I see Kosnitsa has returned. Reformatted
            1. sniperino
              sniperino 20 December 2020 11: 36
              -1
              Quote: Reptiloid
              I see Kosnitsa has returned. Reformatted
              Are you talking about it?
              Kosnitsa is a village in the Dubossary region of Moldova. It is the administrative center of the Kosnitsa commune, which also includes the Pohrebya village.
              I don't even know whether to congratulate or express sympathy request Are you from Pohreb?
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 11: 11
    +1
    Quote: marchcat
    And what should the promises of officials be equated to: to deliberate lies or slander (not the possibility of fulfillment for certain reasons)?

    To incompetence.
    1. zenion
      zenion 19 December 2020 22: 55
      +1
      Krasnoyarsk. At a time when the authorities were responsible for their every word and promise, after the words of incompetence, such a choice followed that the incompetent without any excuses took an ax in one hand and a saw in the other. Now you can do whatever your heart desires if you yourself please and have a piece of power and hairy paws with claws, like a bear in the vertical of power.
  • Sling cutter
    Sling cutter 18 December 2020 11: 11
    +11
    Quote: marchcat
    And the promises of officials to what to equate

    To treason to the Motherland !.
    1. Machito
      Machito 18 December 2020 12: 06
      +11
      Quote: Stroporez
      Quote: marchcat
      And the promises of officials to what to equate

      To treason to the Motherland !.

      Is the promise to create 15 million high-tech jobs slanderous or not? laughing
      1. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 18 December 2020 12: 19
        +15
        Quote: Bearded
        Is the promise to create 15 million high-tech jobs slanderous or not?

        Colleague, I will correct not 15, but 25 million jobs, and these promises have been issued in thousands over 20 years.
        1. depressant
          depressant 18 December 2020 14: 20
          +9
          This is a deliberate misleading, leading to irreversible catastrophic consequences for a large group of the country's population.
          The proposed measure: dismissal from office with a life-long ban on administrative activities, confiscation of the property of the defendant and all close and distant relatives, as well as the introduction of the defendant's data on the granite stella, indicating what he paid for. The monument should be located in one of the central squares of the capital and contain records of all disgraced major political and economic figures. Excursions with trained guides are desirable.
          1. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter 18 December 2020 14: 31
            +11
            Quote: depressant
            dismissal from office with a lifetime ban on administrative activities, confiscation of the property of the person involved and all close and distant relatives, as well as the introduction of "shame" on the granite stella

            Dear Comrade! You are an incorrigibly good-natured person.
            Look, many offer to plant them on a stake, others to shoot or hang, and still others to plant in pots with earth, like flowers.
            And I, as the greatest humanist, propose to put them in a doghouse, feed them for 30 rubles a day and carry them throughout our vast power in cities and villages, so that every citizen who wants to can freely spit into disgusted faces.
            1. depressant
              depressant 18 December 2020 14: 57
              +9
              When we finally roll back to the state of the kingdom of Arkanar, and this seems to be close, your proposed measure will cause serious and close interest among legislators. Only for some reason it seems to me that in the law it is found as a mirror image. You and me, as well as this whole forum in addition, will take you to the cities and villages. And, surprisingly, there is a mass of citizens who are ready to spit on us. Because, no matter how hard we tried, we could not prevent Russia from turning to Arkanar.
              1. Sling cutter
                Sling cutter 18 December 2020 15: 05
                +8
                Quote: depressant
                Because, no matter how hard we tried, we could not prevent Russia from turning to Arkanar.

                I will definitely write a comment about the Kashcheevo Kingdom, because everyone knows from childhood where the "needle" is.
                And to the question of who will "carry" whom, Duc cannot carry 1% 99, although Christ was also crucified to an approving roar, but that was at another time and in another colonial country.
                1. depressant
                  depressant 18 December 2020 15: 20
                  +5
                  The kingdom of Arkanar has a powerful punitive system - have you forgotten, colleague?)))
                  The so-called "gray soldiers", the hope of the nation, as the townspeople spoke favorably of them. Like, these will not be given out to the bookkeepers.

                  "The ancient Empire, led by the Emperor, whose residence is located in Estor, is only a decrepit shadow of the power that it once was. Long ago, the imperial troops united all the lands that they could reach into one invincible state, but by the time "Arkanar massacre" Estor became nothing more than a symbol of former unity.Despite the generally recognized existence of the metropolis and central government, most colonies and provinces separated from the Empire just enough to be able to wage their own intrigues, conspiracies and wars against their neighbors.

                  Three denominations (churches) officially coexist in the Estor Empire. "
                  Taken from the official website of the Kingdom of Arkanar. And it's not a joke. This is arkanar.ru.
                  So now we will give links to Arkanar and what is happening there. Why not? Classics!
                2. Sling cutter
                  Sling cutter 18 December 2020 15: 27
                  +7
                  Quote: depressant
                  This is arkanar.ru.
                  So now we will give links to Arkanar and what is happening there. Why not? Classics!

                  Very curious, let's try. And they say that we are not Orcs anymore.
                3. depressant
                  depressant 18 December 2020 15: 54
                  +4
                  I listened to the song. Bitterness.
                4. Hagen
                  Hagen 18 December 2020 21: 25
                  0
                  Quote: Stroporez
                  Really curious,

                  Y-yes, not Tyutchev ...
      2. Aag
        Aag 18 December 2020 15: 51
        +1
        Quote: depressant
        This is a deliberate misleading, leading to irreversible catastrophic consequences for a large group of the country's population.
        The proposed measure: dismissal from office with a life-long ban on administrative activities, confiscation of the property of the defendant and all close and distant relatives, as well as the introduction of the defendant's data on the granite stella, indicating what he paid for. The monument should be located in one of the central squares of the capital and contain records of all disgraced major political and economic figures. Excursions with trained guides are desirable.

        Is it like the Yeltsin Center?))
        1. depressant
          depressant 18 December 2020 16: 45
          +5
          Powerful, colleague of AAG! ..
          Honestly, I didn't think. That is why the "elves" of local bottling, if we take it in the context of the song provided by Stoporez, are ahead of us. While we are here trying out our creativity, they have already calculated everything, for many years to come, and they did it many years ago. A distinct conspiracy thesis is taking shape - the Ipatiev House, Yeltsin, the Yeltsin Center, the monarchical appearance of the subsequent rule, the transition to feudalism after the future land reform. Apparently, in that place is the source of their strength and rebirth.
          1. Aag
            Aag 18 December 2020 20: 23
            +4
            Quote: depressant
            Powerful, colleague of AAG! ..
            Honestly, I didn't think. That is why the "elves" of local bottling, if we take it in the context of the song provided by Stoporez, are ahead of us. While we are here trying out our creativity, they have already calculated everything, for many years to come, and they did it many years ago. A distinct conspiracy thesis is taking shape - the Ipatiev House, Yeltsin, the Yeltsin Center, the monarchical appearance of the subsequent rule, the transition to feudalism after the future land reform. Apparently, in that place is the source of their strength and rebirth.

            Out of respect for you and your comments .. hi I would like at least some positive!
            In general, I want to swear (about the dog's mother), Zadornov, Zhvanetsky, Gaft, - the era is leaving ...
      3. Hagen
        Hagen 18 December 2020 21: 33
        0
        Quote: depressant
        This is a deliberate misleading, leading to irreversible catastrophic consequences for a large group of the country's population.

        Hard. Only now I will ask you, colleague, did you yourself hear the speech under discussion personally or in the retelling of an undefined person whom you trusted without good reason? The practice of working in VET taught me to trust only documents and other sources with an appropriate degree of reliability. Moreover, in order to form one's own convictions, it is advisable to double-check the sources of information, especially since it is simple and accessible. I can’t insist, but I recommend ....
        1. depressant
          depressant 18 December 2020 22: 15
          +4
          Colleague Hagen !! I repent !!!
          I listened to the speech, but when the questions came, I was somehow immediately tired. But once she took notes of the President's messages to the Federal Assembly! Hmmm ... There was a time ...
          And now, full of penitential sentiments, I can't wait to see the collection "Three sources, three components of Putinism-oligarchism" appear on the newsstand. I hope that the transcript of the President's communication with his correspondents will be included in the collection. I promise on oath that I will acquire the collection, study it diligently and even outline it, and put the leader's most outstanding thoughts into a separate quotation book.
          1. Hagen
            Hagen 18 December 2020 23: 04
            0
            Quote: depressant
            I promise on oath that I will get the collection,

            Colleague, first of all, I'm glad that there are still people with a sense of humor laughing ... Secondly, I don’t think there is a need for such extreme actions. All the same, I think that joining the ranks of the opposition, however also the ranks of those who sympathize with the authorities, is better based on one's convictions and legal awareness than for the company. There are so many lies and slander in the opinions of outsiders on the network today that it is better to spend time on primary sources. Good luck with your creative search smile
    2. Hagen
      Hagen 18 December 2020 21: 23
      0
      Quote: Stroporez
      Colleague, I will correct not 15, but 25 million jobs and these promises

      Actually, it was said in 2012 literally the following: "By 2020 must create and modernize 25 million jobs. This is a very ambitious and difficult task. "
      At the same time, I would like to note that the semantic meaning of the word "must" is very different from the word "I promise."
  • zenion
    zenion 19 December 2020 22: 56
    +1
    Bearded man. This is not a promise, this is a publicly expressed intention.
  • Alexander Kopychev
    Alexander Kopychev 18 December 2020 12: 35
    +4
    Quote: marchcat
    And what should the promises of officials be equated to: to deliberate lies or slander (not the possibility of fulfillment for certain reasons)?

    In every contract in small print - force majeure... THEY are praying for sanctions - otmaza stopudovaya !!!
    1. Aag
      Aag 18 December 2020 15: 53
      +1
      Quote: Alexander Kopychev
      Quote: marchcat
      And what should the promises of officials be equated to: to deliberate lies or slander (not the possibility of fulfillment for certain reasons)?

      In every contract in small print - force majeure... THEY are praying for sanctions - otmaza stopudovaya !!!

      ))))) hi
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 19 December 2020 14: 24
    0
    Quote: marchcat
    And what should the promises of officials be equated to: to deliberate lies or slander (not the possibility of fulfillment for certain reasons)?

    If you criticize the authorities, you fall under the law on insulting the authorities, if you praise the authorities, you fall under the law on fake news.
    © smile
    1. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 20 December 2020 14: 39
      +1
      Quote: Alexey RA
      Quote: marchcat
      And what should the promises of officials be equated to: to deliberate lies or slander (not the possibility of fulfillment for certain reasons)?

      If you criticize the authorities, you fall under the law on insulting the authorities, if you praise the authorities, you fall under the law on fake news.
      © smile

      Both before the revolution and under the USSR they spoke with all sorts of different hints
      "If someone, here and there we have."
  • rocket757
    rocket757 18 December 2020 10: 18
    +6
    Guys, WHERE IS IT WRONG ???
    Dermocracy is the power and all the rights of a LIMITED PART OF SOCIETY that the "exceptional" has demonstrated to the whole world, proved inside and out.
    1. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 11: 20
      +3
      Quote: rocket757

      Dermocracy is the power and all the rights of a LIMITED PART OF SOCIETY that the "exceptional" has demonstrated to the whole world, proved inside and out.

      Do not substitute concepts. Democracy is something that does not exist and has never existed in any country in the world.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 18 December 2020 11: 36
        +3
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Do not replace the concept.

        Fi, I'm just DECLAMING, repeating what those guys keep talking about all day ...
        I'm not trying to argue with them, let them, I'm just not interested.
      2. aleksejkabanets
        aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 12: 25
        +3
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Democracy is something that does not exist and has never existed in any country in the world.

        Why are you so, democracy is the rule of the majority. It existed in its purest form during the times of primitive communism. And today there is only a dictatorship of one class or another.
        1. Tank hard
          Tank hard 18 December 2020 17: 54
          +1
          Quote: aleksejkabanets
          Why are you so, democracy is the rule of the majority. It existed in its pure form during the times of primitive communism. And today there is only a dictatorship of one class or another

          Graduation of states according to Plato:
          Plato on the scale of gradual degradation, which looks like evolution in time, but the irreversibility of such evolution is not directly stated, and the question of the inevitability of degradation is not explicitly posed, so if one wishes, this degradation can be considered only a description of a certain tendency, very similar to the decomposition of the primitive democracy. ... Here is the scale of types of state (from best to worst):

          Aristocracy (ἀριστοκρατία) and monarchy (βασιλεία) - the best form of government possible in the real world, a just power of a minority of the best citizens by their abilities. Aristocracy presupposes equality among the most advanced members of society who are involved in its management. (445d);
          Timocracy (τιμοκρατία) - the less perfect power of the minority, the unfair power of respected citizens who received their power not according to their ability, but according to their ability to get it. Timocracy and inequality replace the aristocracy of equals as personal interests prevail over general interests. (545c);
          Oligarchy (ὀλιγαρχία) - even less perfect power of rich people (544c): “the rich are in power there, and the poor do not participate in government” (550d). Oligarchy is based on the actual material superiority of the rich over the capable and everyone else.
          Democracy (δημοκρατία) even less perfect, and just and, at the same time, unjust majority rule. Democracy is the equality of all possessing men, in which their personal qualities do not matter... (544c);
          Tyranny (τυραννὶς) - the most imperfect and unjust power of one person. Tyranny in Plato's time meant tyranny against an aristocratic minority with the tacit approval of a democratic majority. From the point of view of Plato, a tyrant is the most unfortunate person, since he denies others independence and reason, and his reason is forced to use it to suppress the reason of others.
      3. Berber
        Berber 18 December 2020 16: 49
        0
        Switzerland is the closest thing to real democracy. Because citizens are very responsible in approaching national issues. These issues are resolved only by referendums. Recently, there was a referendum on some payments, so the majority refused, as this could become a problem in the future. This is unlikely with us. Nevertheless, there is democracy, but how much is a question.
        1. depressant
          depressant 18 December 2020 21: 11
          +5
          To a colleague of BerBer.
          On June 5, 2016, in a referendum, the Swiss abandoned the so-called AML - benefits, otherwise the unconditional basic income guaranteed by the state for all residents of the country.
          The public initiative regarding the introduction of a guaranteed income was rejected by a majority of 76,9% of the vote. It has not received approval in any of Switzerland's 26 cantons and half-cantons.
          Residents considered that the payment of unearned money after the existence of a person humiliates his dignity and lowers his self-esteem to zero. This is something that our government does not accept, distributing handouts, but stubbornly preventing entrepreneurs from creating decent jobs. The industries created with the participation of the state are catastrophically few, and they are mainly only in the extraction of minerals, their primary processing, the military industry, aviation. We do not have a large-scale, sustainable production of household items, which would give a powerful development to the economy. No, and it is not expected. Why? A special topic of conversation.
          1. NEOZ
            NEOZ 21 December 2020 13: 21
            +1
            Quote: depressant
            What our government does not accept in any way, distributing handouts, but stubbornly preventing entrepreneurs from creating decent jobs.

            payments from the state is it bad?
            Quote: depressant
            We do not have a large-scale, sustainable production of household items, which would give a powerful development to the economy. No, and it is not expected. Why?

            What education do you have?
            why do you find the production of household items useful?
            why do you think all household items in the USA are made in China, and planes / ships are made in the USA?
            give examples of a country with a population of 150 million. people who produce the whole range of household items, as well as aircraft / ships ... if you can ...
    2. Machito
      Machito 18 December 2020 12: 05
      +5
      Quote: rocket757
      Guys, WHERE IS IT WRONG ???
      Dermocracy is the power and all the rights of a LIMITED PART OF SOCIETY that the "exceptional" has demonstrated to the whole world, proved inside and out.

      For your SCRAP from you 1 million rubles !!!! laughing
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 18 December 2020 12: 33
        +5
        Quote: Bearded
        For your SCRAP from you 1 million rubles !!!!

        Do not wish to become a millionaire due to the mistakes of others ... they will catch you and rip off like a sticky one.
        1. Machito
          Machito 18 December 2020 13: 10
          +4
          Quote: rocket757
          Quote: Bearded
          For your SCRAP from you 1 million rubles !!!!

          Do not wish to become a millionaire due to the mistakes of others ... they will catch you and rip off like a sticky one.

          That's sarcasm, colleague.
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 18 December 2020 13: 37
            +4
            So I was not going to rip you off like a sticky one .... I don't know how, and there is no desire! Here with a rabbit, a lamb, a pig, we are at once ... and it turns out not only valuable FUR, but also something else drinks
            1. Machito
              Machito 18 December 2020 14: 35
              +5
              Quote: rocket757
              So I was not going to rip you off like a sticky one .... I don't know how, and there is no desire! Here with a rabbit, a lamb, a pig, we are at once ... and it turns out not only valuable FUR, but also something else drinks

              Some kilograms of easily digestible dietary meat lol
              1. rocket757
                rocket757 18 December 2020 14: 43
                +3
                And aa, everything is easy for us to digest, dietary - pure! Village with, all its own, home.
                1. Reptiloid
                  Reptiloid 20 December 2020 04: 15
                  +2
                  Quote: rocket757
                  And aa, everything is easy for us to digest, dietary - pure! Village with, all its own, home.
                  nothing, nothing, in our big city everything is also assimilated, only the result is different
    3. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 20 December 2020 04: 02
      +2
      Quote: rocket757
      Guys, WHERE IS IT WRONG ???
      Dermocracy is the power and all the rights of a LIMITED PART OF SOCIETY that the "exceptional" has demonstrated to the whole world, proved inside and out.

      all so. LIMITED! Therefore, it turns out that nothing is promised for everyone, optimization, agglomeration ...
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 20 December 2020 09: 27
        +1
        Hi Dmitry soldier : soldier:
        Any words are spoken, Schaub will completely confuse us!
        The goal of the upper ones is always one, understandable. Confuse, divide and conquer.
        Nothing new if you figure it out.
        1. Reptiloid
          Reptiloid 20 December 2020 09: 38
          +2
          hi hi good morning Victor! Agglomeration, optimization - against people, although it sounds clever.
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 20 December 2020 10: 19
            +1
            They stir up, twist, let the fog in ... one fig.
            There are enough people who want to fish in muddy water.
            It should be simpler, clearer, then people will understand and appreciate accordingly.
            1. Reptiloid
              Reptiloid 20 December 2020 11: 12
              +2
              Quote: rocket757
              They stir up, twist, let the fog in ... one fig .......
              It should be simpler, clearer, then people will understand and appreciate accordingly.
              why is it clearer? If it is clearer ----- this will open then --- am am The goal, on the contrary, is opposite.
              1. rocket757
                rocket757 20 December 2020 11: 20
                +1
                Our goal is to reveal their purpose, all those troubles with which they confuse, deceive others!
                Ha, ha, joke.
                1. Reptiloid
                  Reptiloid 20 December 2020 11: 30
                  +2
                  Our goal is to reveal their purpose ...
                  laughing
  • Simon schempp
    Simon schempp 18 December 2020 10: 20
    +12
    The government needs not just slaves, but dumb slaves.

    And bablishko.
    Yesterday, the president boasted that the share of revenues from oil and gas is getting smaller and smaller.
    Because people are new oil.
  • Insurgent
    Insurgent 18 December 2020 10: 23
    +5
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    The government needs not just slaves, but dumb slaves.

    And there was a time, they talked about the opposite, and learned from that, forming a community of free people.

    In 1920, there was an obvious socio-political progress, now, in 2020 - a clear regression ...

    1. basmach
      basmach 18 December 2020 10: 58
      +10
      In this primer and in the future, there was one small grammatical error, but with great logical meaning. And it had to be written, we are not slaves, slaves are dumb. That is, slaves are dumb, not having the right to vote and not being able to say anything. After all, for this you need to be free inside. The problem is that slave psychology prevails in society. No, in the kitchen they are all heroes, only they don't go further. The fear of losing your bowl of stew and the slave's rags is stronger. So why be surprised that the owners are simply cementing the status quo?
      1. Insurgent
        Insurgent 18 December 2020 11: 13
        +8
        Quote: basmach
        In this primer and in the future, there was one small grammatical error, but with great logical meaning. And it had to be written, we are not slaves, slaves are dumb. That is, slaves are dumb, not having the right to vote and not being able to say anything.

        On this primer, a generation grew up that defeated Nazism and restored the economy of the USSR after the war devastation.
        Therefore, if there is any relevance "grammatical error", then only in relation to the current situation in society.
        1. basmach
          basmach 18 December 2020 16: 48
          +1
          You yourself understood what you wrote. And what I wanted to write. The presence of a space changes the meaning. If it is, it's just the same phrase with a different arrangement of words. Yes, it makes sense. If, without a gap, the meaning is different and much deeper, full logical meaning is acquired.
          And what does the pre-war generation have to do with it.
          1. Insurgent
            Insurgent 19 December 2020 07: 12
            0
            Quote: basmach
            And what does the pre-war generation have to do with it.

            It grew up on the ABC book, which you consider "not correct".
    2. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 11: 28
      +3
      Quote: Insurgent

      And there was a time, they talked about the opposite, and learned from that, forming a community of free people.

      Actually a little wrong. That's right - "WE ARE NOT SLAVES. SLAVES OF NEM.
      From the word dumb, unable to speak.
      To teach a person to speak, he needed to be educated.
      That is what the Soviet government did from the first days of its existence.
      1. Insurgent
        Insurgent 18 December 2020 11: 35
        +2
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Actually a little wrong. That's right - "WE ARE NOT SLAVES. SLAVES OF NEM.


        Either you are not attentive, or you don’t value the generation of Soviet people who grew up on these words - "We are not slaves, we are not slaves":

        Quote: Insurgent
        On this primer, a generation grew up that defeated Nazism and restored the economy of the USSR after the war devastation.
        Thus, if there is a relevance of the "grammatical error", then only in relation to the current situation in society.
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 14: 42
          -1
          Quote: Insurgent

          Either you are not attentive, or you don’t value the generation of Soviet people who grew up on these words - "We are not slaves, we are not slaves":

          This is impossible, because I myself am a Soviet person. But...
          Let's figure it out. WE ARE NOT SLAVES is this about? That there are no slaves.
          WE ARE NOT SLAVES, but what is this about? That there are slaves, but not us. Who? The answer is NEM'S SLAVES, who cannot speak. This slogan is not political, but cultural and educational. Therefore, in this context, it is correct to write together - NEMA.
          = We are not slaves, slaves are dumb - a phrase from the first Soviet alphabet "Down with illiteracy: Primer for adults" (1919). Editions of "Primer" were published anonymously in 1919-1920 in different cities; the first edition was published by the political department of the Revolutionary Military Council of the Southern Front. =
    3. Horon
      Horon 18 December 2020 12: 01
      -12%
      They wrote well and beautifully, only people were slaves not to landlords and industrialists, but to the state! The fact that slavery was condemned does not mean that the attitude towards people was better. The exploitation of man by man was replaced by the exploitation of man by the state (read by the party), and so: "we are not slaves ...", bully
      PS How many cons will fly to me now! wassat In someone else's eye ... as they say.
      1. Gardamir
        Gardamir 18 December 2020 12: 28
        +14
        The fact that slavery was condemned does not mean that the attitude towards people was better. Was the exploitation of man by man replaced by the exploitation of man by the state (read by the party)?
        Is the party not united Russia by any chance? Why go into the past, tell us about today's freedoms.
        1. Horon
          Horon 18 December 2020 13: 40
          -8
          Then there is no need to cry for something that never happened.
          1. Horon
            Horon 18 December 2020 14: 24
            -7
            Why go into the past, tell us about today's freedoms.

            Indeed, why then do you nod at the past when you "incriminate the authorities" in restricting rights!
            1. Dante Alighieri
              Dante Alighieri 18 December 2020 20: 42
              +7
              that slavery was condemned does not mean that the attitude towards people was better. The exploitation of man by man was replaced by the exploitation of man by the state (read by the party)

              And yet, the exploitation of a person by the state is much more humane just because the state is a community, and it is guided by the interests of the majority, and not by the momentary greedy and selfish urges of individual individuals. And although the general leadership of the state is carried out by the same individuals imperfect in maral and ethical terms, they are hand and foot bound by the will of the majority, which in Soviet times was expressed in the leading and guiding role of the party. There were, of course, excesses, but they only confirmed the general practice. I am not arguing that under state capitalism, and if you believe Jilass, this is exactly what developed in the socialist bloc, an ordinary member could not be slaughtered. On the contrary, you can. But this was done not for the sake of someone's whim, but in the name of the prosperity of the majority. Moreover, with a certain ideological "pumping" no deliberate actions had to be performed at all: a person himself was ready to give his life, health and prosperity on the altar of a great goal. The irony is that the goal, as a rule, really turned out to be worthy of the hardships that its implementation enforced. The only question is what is preferable for you: to selflessly work for the good of society, so that later it will distribute these capitals at its own discretion, providing free medicine, education and jobs, or working for the good of a bunch of crooks who prosper due to the fact that someone forced to drag out a beggarly existence, without a chance to change the situation for the better. The choice is yours.
        2. Tank hard
          Tank hard 18 December 2020 18: 03
          -10%
          Quote: Gardamir
          Is the party not united Russia by any chance? Why go into the past, tell us about today's freedoms

          Under Joseph Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili, you for such a post ( criticism of the ruling party) would be sentenced to "10 years without correspondence" (this is death), but you are still here, alive and continue to post your opinion. Not that I'm an EP fan, but it's in comparison. wink
          1. depressant
            depressant 18 December 2020 21: 38
            +5
            Colleague of Tank Hard, I believe your opinion is of great value to the EP leadership. The flaw will certainly be corrected.
            1. Tank hard
              Tank hard 19 December 2020 08: 50
              0
              Quote: depressant
              Colleague of Tank Hard, I believe your opinion is of great value to the EP leadership. The flaw will certainly be fixed

              elena yakovlevna (you have it written, with a small letter request ),I do not know. I am not there laughing , you probably know better judging by your phrase:
              Quote: depressant
              The flaw will certainly be corrected.

              repeat
              You can treat the GDP and parties in the Russian Federation as you like. but this does not negate the fact that in Soviet times in general, and especially in some periods, criticism of the ruling party could be paid not only with freedom but also with life. This is not happening now. It's a pity that I have to translate from Russian into Russian from time to time.
              And yes, we are not colleagues. Svarog is your colleague. hi
              PS
              If my opinion is so insignificant, why do you comment on it then ?? request
              1. depressant
                depressant 19 December 2020 10: 59
                +3
                Dear Tank Hard colleague!
                Your opinion is by no means insignificant, for it is part of the full spectrum of commentators' opinions - it brings its own color line. If I offended you, then forgive generously! I hope you are a friendly person? It was just dark humor. This will not happen again.
                And further. They call me Lyudmila Yakovlevna, and I have never hidden this. It was nice to introduce myself! yes love hi )))
                1. Tank hard
                  Tank hard 19 December 2020 15: 51
                  +1
                  Quote: depressant
                  And further. They call me Lyudmila Yakovlevna, and I have never hidden this. It was nice to introduce myself!

                  Okay, Lyudmila Yakovlevna. I understood you. Please forgive my harshness. hi
                  Quote: depressant
                  Are you a friendly person?

                  Well. unless he is married and not a captain. repeat
      2. aleksejkabanets
        aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 12: 29
        +10
        Quote: Horon
        They wrote well and beautifully, only people were slaves not to landlords and industrialists, but to the state! The fact that slavery was condemned does not mean that the attitude towards people was better. The exploitation of man by man was replaced by the exploitation of man by the state (read by the party), and so: "we are not slaves ...", bully
        PS How many cons will fly to me now! wassat In someone else's eye ... as they say.

        Just compare to today. What rights, of those that were then, remained with a simple hard worker today?
        1. Horon
          Horon 18 December 2020 14: 18
          -10%
          I compare: the right to surf the Internet and criticism of the state (for the criticism of the party, even in the yard on a bench in the Union there was a real term), the right to housing for every taste and wallet (the housing that can be bought or built today is limited only by your own imagination and the amounts that you have), the right to choose purchases in the store (no need to tell that in the Union there was a choice in the stores, I lived then and I take it as a lie, since I had to go to the city for shopping and queue up for several hours without a guarantee to buy what you need and in the right amount), the right to freedom of movement (they have already forgotten about the limit, and it is better not to remember about issuing passports for rural residents at all), a ban on the exploitation of child labor (in the Union this was only said, But in reality, it is not uncommon to substitute labor education for exploitation, to work for free is not exploitation, is it?). And the phrase "at the request of the workers!" - not invented today. The concept of "voluntary-compulsory" is also not a modern invention. Yes, now, too, is not better, somewhere even worse, but the lie about the beautiful "yesterday" just gives the authorities a tool for "tightening the screws", at the request of the workers and on a voluntary-compulsory basis.
          The author Skomorokhov deliberately twisted the concepts in the article, since the law will primarily affect dishonest journalists or journalists. After all, it is no longer possible to trust a single publishing house - lie, sir. Everyone lies!
          1. aleksejkabanets
            aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 14: 59
            +13
            Quote: Horon
            (there was a real term for the criticism of the party even in the yard on a bench in the Union)

            How old are you, boy? I don’t have to lie. I lived in the USSR, I remember.
            Quote: Horon
            build today is limited only by your own imagination and the amounts that you have)

            Half of my relatives live in apartments (houses) received (built) in the USSR. What are the sums of the "middle class" with a salary of 17 tr?
            Quote: Horon
            I lived then and I take it for a lie, because for shopping I had to go to the city and flock in lines for several hours without a guarantee to buy ...

            We often went to the villages to shop on a tolling basis.
            Quote: Horon
            the right to freedom of movement (they have already forgotten about the limit, and it is better not to remember at all about not issuing passports for rural residents), a ban on the exploitation of child labor (in the Union this was only said, but in reality, they often substituted exploitation with labor education, free of charge to work is not exploitation, right?)

            Have you read the magazine "Ogonyok"? Especially the myth about passports touched me. Read more documentaries, young man, and trust the liberal media less.
            Quote: Horon
            but the lie about the beautiful "yesterday" just gives the authorities a tool for "tightening the screws"

            Power takes the example of "Russia We Lost." With a 16-hour working day, no sick leave, pensions and other things. I'm not saying that in the late USSR it was so fabulous, of course not. However, it cannot even be compared with today. Yes, a simple example, about the quality of products then and today, it shows the government's concern for ordinary people then and today. I don’t speak for medicine and education.
            Quote: Horon
            The author Skomorokhov deliberately twisted the concepts in the article, since the law will primarily affect dishonest journalists or journalists. After all, it is no longer possible to trust a single publishing house - lie, sir. Everyone lies!

            He did not twist anything there, why can I be attracted for "slander", but an official for unfulfilled promises can not? We have courts, those courts who have more money and power, he is right. And you can't trust anyone, you should always study the sources.
            1. Horon
              Horon 18 December 2020 16: 11
              -11%
              Thank you for the boy! winked I also lived then and what kind of tolling scheme you are talking about here, it began to appear EMNIP. Only in the late 80s, and even then not everywhere. In general, it is understandable, the communists will not admit to the beam in the eye, it was already clear.
              Have you read the magazine "Ogonyok"? Especially the myth about passports touched me. Read more documentaries, young man, and trust the liberal media less.

              No Crocodile! The myth is what you are talking about, but what I'm talking about is the history of the USSR and my family. In order to get a passport, my father, after the army, went to Kazakhstan to raise the goal, and so he went with a certificate from the village! Young man! Mother got her passport after she got married! So how old are you if you didn't know it? And in order to get an apartment it was necessary to have a city residence permit and to stand in line, with constant shifts at a later date for "non-specialists", read for workers! I know that now red-haired liars will run up and minus, but can someone read it, but remember their youth, how they were happy to receive a room in barracks and hostels, and even apartments in Khrushchev were delighted after the barracks and hostels. And now, if such housing is offered, the majority will spit and call it bestial conditions. But then they rejoiced at all this. To buy a car, one had to stand in line and provide a certificate of income: as with a salary of 80 rubles in five years, a person collected money for a car - is this person doing something illegal. And if somewhere you are trying to earn money yourself, then they looked with suspicion: "Why don't you work for the state - tun (Tuniyadets)!" An acquaintance was engaged in bees, the police took them three times and found out why he was not working, and he paid taxes. I even sat in the early 80s for tuniyadstvo. But you still wake up with the stubbornness of fanatics to deny everything and notice only now and in relation to you, the violation of rights and freedoms!
              1. evgen1221
                evgen1221 18 December 2020 17: 20
                +11
                Horon, why did you decide that the assortment in stores, the quality of housing in the USSR, if it were today, would remain the same? In the civil and after the Second World War, they lived in dugouts, and under Brezhnev in comfortable housing, everything improved and it was for the masses of the population (the elite always had more, and did not shine annoyingly) - and note that it was extremely philistine and society despised such people (to want and achieve 10 room apartment and 7-storey cottage - living without children alone or together) And no one forbade building a house in the union at least 100 floors - you don't need such mansions in fact, and if you make a significant feat for the country, then the state will build itself - if you need it.
                1. Tank hard
                  Tank hard 18 December 2020 18: 28
                  -7
                  Quote: evgen1221
                  And no one forbade building a house at least 100 floors in the union-

                  In the USSR in general and in the Kirghiz SSR in particular, there was a certain minimum square meters for a person, specifically 9 square meters per person was allowed. All. what was from above was illegal. if it seemed to be a private individual building (house), it was impossible to register an extension or sell it if the building exceeded 9 square meters per person. And if it was a summer residence, the building was simply and unpretentiously demolished. A local police officer was obliged to report where such "violations" were found. The only exception (as far as I know) was the Georgian SSR, where a lot was possible. Judging by your commentary on real life in the USSR. you are very distant, if at all. hi
                  1. Sling cutter
                    Sling cutter 18 December 2020 18: 46
                    +11
                    Quote: Tank Hard
                    In the USSR in general and in the Kirghiz SSR in particular, there was a certain minimum square meters for a person, specifically allowed was 9 square meters per person. All. what was from above was illegal

                    Listen, don't you throw off the normative documentary, well, how clean is it to neigh at another anti-Soviet?
                    I tell you, in 1977, the state gave my uncle an apartment of 67 square meters for a family of 4 people. Take a calculator, my friend, and count.
                  2. Tank hard
                    Tank hard 18 December 2020 18: 48
                    -9
                    Quote: Stroporez
                    Listen, and you will not throw off the normative, well, so cleanly neighing at another anti-Soviet?

                    What. no criminal record yet? How will it be, let's laugh .. wink laughing
                  3. Sling cutter
                    Sling cutter 18 December 2020 19: 01
                    +6
                    Quote: Tank Hard
                    What. no criminal record yet?

                    This is a threat?
                  4. Tank hard
                    Tank hard 18 December 2020 19: 01
                    -8
                    Quote: Stroporez
                    This is a threat?

                    Who ?! laughing laughing
              2. Reptiloid
                Reptiloid 18 December 2020 20: 16
                +7
                Perhaps it was something like this - the fact that per person, say 9m, it was considered only living space. Plus, some more meters for the whole family, ~~~ 10-15? Plus, a few extra meters were allowed, besides that. MOS were not included in these meters. These common areas, their size, were not mentioned at all.
                Now meters are counted without dividing ...
                I wrote ---- perhaps approximately, because the numbers were different in different cities and in different years. Conditions were improving.
                Quote: Stroporez
                Quote: Tank Hard
                In the USSR in general and in the Kirghiz SSR in particular, there was a certain minimum square meters for a person, specifically allowed was 9 square meters per person. All. what was from above was illegal

                Listen, don't you throw off the normative documentary, well, how clean is it to neigh at another anti-Soviet?
                I tell you, in 1977, the state gave my uncle an apartment of 67 square meters for a family of 4 people. Take a calculator, my friend, and count.
            2. aleksejkabanets
              aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 18: 49
              +6
              Quote: Tank Hard
              In the USSR in general, and in the Kyrgyz SSR in particular, there was a certain minimum square meters for a person, specifically 9 square meters per person was allowed.

              In the late USSR, idiotic solutions were enough. We built "one and a half storey" houses with a supposedly non-residential first floor. I don't remember the area norms.
            3. Tank hard
              Tank hard 18 December 2020 18: 56
              -4
              Quote: aleksejkabanets
              In the late USSR, idiotic solutions were enough. We built "one and a half storey" houses with a supposedly non-residential first floor. I don't remember the area norms.

              Duc and I about it. Here, some are ready to present the USSR as an ideal world. However, this was not at all the case, although I admit there were many good things. It was allowed 9 square meters per person. My mother inherited a certain amount from my aunt and wanted to buy a cooperative apartment. But following the recommendations of a special commission at the regional Central Committee of the CPSU. on housing issues. recommended BTI, to deny her this, due to the sufficient area of ​​housing for her in the parental home. request
            4. aleksejkabanets
              aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 19: 18
              +7
              Quote: Tank Hard
              Duc and I about it. Here, some are ready to present the USSR as an ideal world ...

              The USSR, at least the late one, was not an ideal world. It's stupid to idealize him. However, everything is learned by comparison. Today I perfectly understand why my (and your, probably) ancestors were not afraid of the blood of revolution and civil war.
            5. Tank hard
              Tank hard 18 December 2020 19: 29
              +3
              Quote: aleksejkabanets
              The USSR, at least the late one, was not an ideal world. It's stupid to idealize him.

              That's for sure, but I repeat, there was a lot of good.
              Quote: aleksejkabanets
              However, everything is learned by comparison.

              Here I completely agree with you. hi
              Quote: aleksejkabanets
              Today I perfectly understand why my (and your, probably) ancestors were not afraid of the blood of revolution and civil war.

              Some of my ancestors were enemies of the Bolsheviks, that's a fact. Just as a fact is their voluntary and selfless defense of the USSR during the Second World War.
              I was talking to my late grandfather (then still alive), in a conversation when he praised the Tsar and Imperial Russia, I asked him, and when did the family begin to receive the highest income? And we found out that during the NEP (and this was Soviet Russia), when the state made it possible to rent agricultural machinery for reasonable money. Such are the things. True, then Joseph Vissarionovich carried out some reforms and selected some important elements, including the life of some of my ancestors. The question is really complicated. request
            6. aleksejkabanets
              aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 19: 32
              +6
              Quote: Tank Hard
              The question is really complicated.

              Yes, the question is not simple and not for this topic. hi
  • aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 18: 43
    +8
    Quote: Horon
    Thank you for the boy! winked I also lived then and what kind of tolling scheme are you talking about here

    If you lived under the USSR, you would receive a Soviet education and would not make such elementary mistakes.
    Quote: Horon
    and flock in lines

    Quote: Horon
    tun (tuniad)!

    Apparently already Russian education affects.
    Quote: Horon
    In order to get a passport, my father, after the army, went to Kazakhstan to raise the goal, and so he went with a certificate from the village!

    Why did the help interfere with him? He went to raise the virgin soil just to get a passport? Lie about it some kind of "victim of the exam". The villagers were not taken to city educational institutions? Not taken to factories? Just look at the statistics of rural population decline and urban increase. Straight for five-year plans. Where do you think people come from for all these Stalinist production giants? Did you get started from dampness? Right at the construction site? Read the statistics for the first five years.
    Quote: Horon
    And in order to get an apartment it was necessary to have a city residence permit and to stand in line, with constant shifts at a later date for "non-specialists", read for workers!

    My wife's relatives, after the war I built a collective farm. Always on the collective farm, they subscribed to materials, and built "with the whole world". This is how it is in the Kuban. I lived in those houses. And the father and mother received an apartment within a month after the wedding in Navoi. In Moscow, it was probably different.
    Quote: Horon
    I know that now the red-haired liars will come running and minus, but can someone read it, but remember the youth, how they were happy to receive a room in barracks and hostels, and even apartments in Khrushchev were delighted after the barracks and hostels.

    And what to call you, "sufferers in Russia which we have lost"? Probably, you would still be flogged there in the village. I think that today's youth would not be against distribution, after university and a guaranteed room in a hostel immediately and an apartment in Khrushchev after the wedding. Or do you, for some reason, think that "putinka" in 9 sq. meters in mortgages and unemployment better?
    Quote: Horon
    To buy a car, you had to stand in line and provide a certificate of income

    If today officials provided income certificates before buying something, I would not be upset.
    Quote: Horon
    An acquaintance was engaged in bees, three times were taken by the police and found out why he was not working, and he paid taxes.

    Don't lie, my classmate is a hereditary beekeeper. I showed the help from the village council and trade for health. And in winter they all worked in boiler rooms for three days.
    Quote: Horon
    I even sat in the early 80s for tuniyadstvo.

    Yes, parasitism was a crime. As well as speculation, prostitution and other "professions". Apparently our dispute is not about the pros and cons of the USSR, but about your unwillingness to put public interests above personal ones. Today is your time (for now), you can put animal instincts above universal human norms and rules. But sooner or later it will end, whether you like it or not.
    1. Horon
      Horon 18 December 2020 20: 46
      -10%
      Oh, how you emocommunists are jarring from the prose of that life. And by age you are suitable for me as children, even accuse me of lying. You were a youngster at the union, if you do not know that there was even an article for parasitism. And as for the dignity of certificates, since we have already started talking, do not cry that the followers of the party nomenklatura only repeat the same controls that their predecessors used with communist party cards!
      1. aleksejkabanets
        aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 21: 14
        +4
        Quote: Horon
        You were a youngster at the union, if you do not know that there was even an article for parasitism.

        "Chukchi is not a reader, Chukchi is a writer"? Remember this anecdote?
        Quote: Horon
        Yes, parasitism was a crime. As well as speculation, prostitution and other "professions".

        Quote: Horon
        And as for the dignity of certificates, since we’ve started talking, don’t cry that the followers of the party nomenklatura are only repeating the same controls that were used by their predecessors with communist party cards!

        And what did you write this for? Or remind the anecdote again?
        Quote: Horon
        Oh, how you emocommunists are jarring from the prose of that life.

        Arguments are over, should we switch to insults?
    2. Dante Alighieri
      Dante Alighieri 18 December 2020 21: 52
      +7
      Lie about it to some "victim of the exam"

      I am a victim of the exam in the literal sense. The first issue handed over to the state. the exam is not an experiment, but a full-fledged practice. And I flunked him. Well, he failed ... If a person at the regional and regional olympiads in history consistently takes only prize-winning places, and the USE in the same subject passes by 60 points, probably this is an indicator of the exam itself. But this is not about that. Even I have not read such nonsense for a long time, a victim of the Unified State Exam. Probably because most of them taught me according to Soviet patterns (the emphasis towards testing shifted only in the final 11th grade), in my primer it was written: "Lenin lived, Lenin is alive, Lenin will live", and my parents In the year I was born, they crossed the XNUMXth anniversary, so the history of the USSR is, in fact, the history of my family. So, for example, if my peers in the Great Patriotic War fought great-grandfathers, i.e. people who for them were already akin to something inevitably distant, semi-legendary and mythical, then in my case it was my grandfather - a living man of flesh and blood, on whose lap I had time to sit to my heart, looking at the award iconostasis. So, I still belong to the generation who saw the "gods" live (well, or, if you like, not gods, but those whom the Americans call the "great generation"), and therefore to such slander (the article, after all, is about slander) It's not easy to fool me.

      Ps maternal grandfather and grandmother were generally repressed in 1930 as kulaks and were exiled from the village of Novotroitsk (grandfather) and Rubtsovsk (grandmother) of the Altai Territory to the Tomsk region, the village of Tungusovo, Molchanovskiy district. Where did they leave in 1959, first to Kemerovo (relatives also lived there), then to the Kirghiz SSR, where 4 years before them, my maternal grandfather's cousin settled with his family (also, as you might guess, the exiles). None of my ancestors directly participated in the rise of Celina, although my grandfather was a tractor driver of the upper class, and even later in the 1960s, despite the status of a repressed person, he was accepted into the ranks of the party for his labor performance. So the logical question is how could they move around the country without passports, if the latter were issued only to those who participated in the development of the Virgin Lands? But they not only drove by themselves, but also transported all belongings with them, as well as children, junior, middle and senior school age. The only one who did not receive a passport on time was their eldest son - Mikhail, my uncle, who was called into the ranks of the SA. So he really received a certificate upon demobilization, according to which he issued a passport immediately upon returning home. By the way, my grandfather and grandmother registered an official union only in their fifties, but again not because of the lack of passports, but rather because of the very human worldview, which was different: a man and a woman live together, raise children, love and care for a friend about a friend - it means family and business to pieces of paper confirming this to no one especially (even though the grandfather was already a member of the party by that time). What is remarkable, despite this, no one ever confused children with strangers and did not give other names.

      I can walk through other time periods in the history of the USSR in relation to mine, as you understand, not the most "exemplary" in terms of the origin of the family, but nowhere is there such a "trash" as described by Charon, there was not even close. Yes, it was not sweet, difficult and difficult, but there was something else that helped to overcome all life's troubles, trials and adversities. I myself am a child of the 90s still caught a phantom sensation of this feeling, now completely forgotten and disappeared without a trace from our society.
      1. aleksejkabanets
        aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 22: 08
        +5
        Quote: Dante
        Even I have not read such nonsense for a long time, a victim of the Unified State Exam.

        Do not be angry, the words "victim of the exam", I wrote "in hearts" to designate a generation that has already been deprived of a normal education. And as for such nonsense, yes, periodically such characters appear. Where they come from, for me personally, is a mystery. The USSR, especially the late one, was not an ideal state, it is hard to deny. But why bother such a lie, because it is easily refuted, both documented, and people still remember everything that happened. I remember myself. I do not understand why to present yourself as a "stupid person" (the site does not pass another word).
      2. Dante Alighieri
        Dante Alighieri 18 December 2020 23: 53
        +7
        Do not be angry, the words "victim of the exam", I wrote "in the hearts"

        Indeed, it was not in my thoughts. Rather, after almost a decade has passed since that moment, this is perceived as nothing more than irony, although very bitter, because had to overcome numerous obstacles associated with the consequences of this event. Indeed, in fact, the Ministry of Education classified me and others like me as “not suitable” for further education in higher educational institutions. But my parents tensed, paid for my further education (fortunately, I always clearly measured my capabilities, and therefore never claimed the laurels of an economist or lawyer - by far the most expensive specialties among all the humanities) and I still graduated from the university, and with honors (for the first time in his family, although before that there were not a few engineers, teachers and doctors in it), and then he entered the magistracy for free and graduated again with the highest score. Now, looking back, I can say with confidence that my classmates and I are still relatively not very much “suffered” at the hands of “reformers”: the echoes of the past are too strong in us, on whose ruins we had to grow up. Today's children, in a sense, are doing worse - even the ruins are allowed to be baked on, so that nothing that would remind of the former greatness simply does not come off. So there are those who do not remember history. And it would be fine if they were millennials, but there are also older people among them.

        I understand perfectly well that our country was once large and everyone's personal experience is different, but when I read a textbook of a new Russian history to my grandmother, who changed her 8th decade (until the end of her days, she liked to learn new things, to rethink her past and to educate herself, however, the eyes were already failing), she agreed with many things, although she supplemented a lot. This means that the matter is not in the material, it is just in abundance, but in the form in which a person perceives this material. The same Stalinist repression is a sore subject in my family, but you know what? My grandfathers and grandmothers found the strength to forgive this period to the Soviet state, in no small measure because it was followed by a formal renaissance of our people, which they could observe with their own eyes.

        Would it have taken place without collectivization? Hardly. After all, why was dispossession really carried out? Pick up the surplus? Not without it. But this was not an end in itself. It is more like the heat from a light bulb - a by-product, while the purpose of the light bulb is to shine, not warm. After all, what is a kulak economy in essence? This economy is economic efficiency, which is ensured by an extensive way of manual production. Moreover, often the source of this manual power was the kulaks themselves, their families and children, many of whom did not even live to come of age, and not only in the absence of medicine, hygiene and other "benefits of civilization", but also due to the fact that all the surplus postponed for a rainy day, sold on the market in an attempt to exchange them for clothing and means of production, etc. trying to last another year, and then another and another. As a result, many so-called kulaks, having huge pantries and livestock, were malnourished themselves, and their children were malnourished. The situation is actually terrible and in many ways resembles today's small business, which in fact has no profit for a long time, there is only working capital. Meanwhile, the country embarked on the path of forced industrialization, factories were built, the main products of which at that time were tractors and trucks. Only there was no sales market for them. Could a kulak family afford to buy a tractor? In principle, having put a certain amount of cattle under the knife, I probably could. But why when you are yourself, your usual plow, cart, horse and a handful of gratuitous power in the person of your own children. I understand that this sounds scary, but it is a fact. And my ancestors in this case are no exception. It was not for nothing that the Bolsheviks at the first plenary sessions seriously discussed the question: the children of the kulaks are an exploited class or bearers of bourgeois ideas. And I must say that they never came to a final conclusion. This does not mean that the kulaks did not like their children, but we must understand that they treated themselves no better, and therefore the children bore the duties on an equal basis with the adults. The only way to break this system was collectivization. The method is difficult, painful, but necessary, because it was he who made it possible to form a sales market in the person of collective farms, which took the products of heavy industry plants on lease at the MTS and paid for the produced agricultural products. This is what made it possible to move from extensive production to intensive, albeit not immediately, but ultimately increasing the volume of agricultural products. And most importantly, this made it possible to allocate additional workers who were previously employed in production in the countryside. At the same time, children, also freed from the draft yoke (what is 1-3 cows compared to the whole herd), receiving secondary basic education, in turn, also became more valuable potential labor resources, which in the future will improve their financial situation as theirs. themselves and their parents, who were once fists.

        I am explaining all this so extensively not to show that my grandparents were so perspicacious to understand all this. Yes, and they appreciated the work of these victims only after a considerable period of time, already when their own children got on their feet and began to have children. But, as I said, they agreed with the price paid, although they always remembered about it. But someone could not forgive, could not understand and passed on this memory of the "small candle factory", once their property, to their offspring. But it seems to me that these undoubtedly worthy descendants of their ancestors do not understand one thing: evaluating that period only in a negative way, they only more level the significance of the sacrifice that was made by their parents, grandmothers, grandfathers, their great-grandfathers, on the altar of our common future (no matter how pompous it sounds). And a completely different question is how subsequent generations disposed of this "legacy".
      3. aleksejkabanets
        aleksejkabanets 19 December 2020 08: 13
        +3
        Quote: Dante
        I am explaining all this so extensively, not to show that my grandparents were so perspicacious to understand all this.

        You have a very interesting view of the "kulaks", from such an angle I have not considered them before. Not all, of course, were like that, but a certain part undoubtedly was just like that. Tell me, who are you in your specialty?
      4. Dante Alighieri
        Dante Alighieri 19 December 2020 20: 43
        0
        Tell me, who are you in your specialty?

        It is difficult to unequivocally answer this question. My father always joked that he was a Bukharian Jew)))) But it was nothing more than a joke, so as not to go into lengthy explanations. My surname is so rare that in some regions you will not find a second such representative in the daytime with fire. I know for sure that in my Altai Territory I am the only one with such a surname (except for my mother). But in Chita (and indeed the Trans-Baikal Territory), where my grandfather comes from, a participant in the Second World War, the percentage of people with the same surname is very, very high. I dare to assume that on my father's side I ascend to the Zabakal Cossacks or other exiled freethinkers (it is especially stable among the inhabitants of those places with whom I tried to establish contact on the topic of my origin, there is a rumor about the exiled participants of the Polish uprising, but which one is 1830-1831 or 1863-1864 I don't know). However, it is difficult to say anything unequivocally: my grandfather, my sister and mine were left orphans early and were brought up in half, either in a state institution, or at relatives who, although they did not completely abandon their children, could not take them for good. However, at that time, this provided them with a good education. Paternal grandmother, a native of the Altai Territory, namely the village of Pavlovskoye, which is not far from the regional capital - the city of Barnaul. Kind of like Russian.

        On the maternal side (in which everyone is completely repressed), the grandfather had clearly Ukrainian roots, and although he himself did not speak in language and considered himself an ordinary Russian person, his cousin did not explain anything except surzhik all his life, well, and the corresponding surname - with the ending on "to". The grandmother, who hails from Rubtsovsk, although she was born in the Altai Territory, is rooted in the Volga region, from where her parents fled to escape hunger. And this region, as you know, is still that national cauldron in which from time immemorial everyone was brewed: from Mordovians and Tatars, and ending with Bashkirs and Chuvashes. And that's not counting the Russians themselves. Their surname, however, was quite ordinary: the Glukhovs, and they never called themselves anyone other than the Russians.

        So it turns out I'm quite an ordinary example of the Slavic ethnos. Although, again, the question here is who exactly should be considered as such: so in my family, mostly all brunettes, and the percentage of fair-haired or blondes, somewhere in the region of stat. errors, and, as a rule, is associated with representatives or representatives who have replenished the ranks of the family. And even in such marriages, children are predominantly born with coal hair color, which suggests a gene pool that is not devoid of external "impurities". Although everything may be simpler and the century-old dominance of black-haired, as in the case of breeding, has simply developed certain generic traits that are difficult to overcome within one or two generations. So you can consider me a Russian, well, or a Bukharian Jew, I generally do not mind))) The main thing is that the appropriate "hygienic" procedures inherent in these peoples did not have to be done)))
      5. aleksejkabanets
        aleksejkabanets 19 December 2020 21: 56
        +1
        Quote: Dante
        And even in such marriages, children are predominantly born with coal hair color, which suggests a gene pool that is not devoid of external "impurities".

        Recessive and dominant signs. And that's it, black is the dominant feature. Strictly speaking, I asked about my specialty, I thought you were finishing history, for some reason I hoped that you were teaching somewhere.
      6. Dante Alighieri
        Dante Alighieri 19 December 2020 22: 45
        +2
        Sorry, I got confused at the end of the day ... read the nationality ...
        I am a political scientist by education. And I work as a press secretary of one service (I immediately speak not of security, but government subordination) In principle, I can be called an official, but very, very small and not influencing anything. I do not think that this is my vocation for life, but so far I am working in this field. Ask to leave, I will look for something else. I had a chance to teach, I even taught six-month courses for other areas of training: journalists, economists. I read both political science itself and jurisprudence, since the course of constitutional, judicial and electoral law in our program was simply huge. In principle, I liked it, it was especially pleasant when the audience perceived what they heard favorably, and I am not deprived of oratorical skills. But you won't be full of scientific activity, besides, the topic of my research, although it was very innovative, did not meet with special enthusiasm at the department, because was more philosophical than applied (our main specialization is electoral political process). So I had to look for something that could bring at least some money. Of course, I would like the place of work to be at least a little connected with my direct specialty, but alas and ah. Needless to say, even the current job had to be searched for quite a long time, but at least with a stretch it can be attributed to "profile work". The salary is, of course, small - 20 thousand, and at the start it was even less, but, in principle, I have enough, especially since I am not burdened with my family, except that I support my mother - it is rather difficult for one pensioner to live in our country. In addition, I have never suffered from excessive demands, so I don’t have any special requests in my life.
  • Reptiloid
    Reptiloid 20 December 2020 15: 11
    +1
    ... ...... without passports .....
    but as ? Unclear. During the Second World War there were evacuations, refugees, then they returned. Demobilized people also returned ... often their homes were occupied by others, as a result of destruction from the Germans. .. ..it had to be registered again ....
    . How without a passport? What happened then? But what about Mayakovsky wrote about the Soviet passport.
  • Tank hard
    Tank hard 18 December 2020 18: 06
    -7
    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    How old are you, boy? I don’t have to lie. I lived in the USSR, I remember

    Quote: aleksejkabanets
    Half of my relatives live in apartments (houses) received (built) in the USSR. What are the sums of the "middle class" with a salary of 17 tr?

    An old song about the old Bayan, however! laughing
    1. Sling cutter
      Sling cutter 18 December 2020 19: 05
      +9
      Quote: Tank Hard
      Bayan, however!

      And you play on it, I'll put little things in your hat. yes
      1. Tank hard
        Tank hard 18 December 2020 19: 07
        -3
        Quote: Stroporez
        And you play on it, I'll put little things in your hat.

        First stretch the button accordion, private, then I'll play. laughing And the surplus of funds always attracts some attention. wink
        1. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter 18 December 2020 19: 12
          +3
          Quote: Tank Hard
          First stretch the button accordion, private, then I'll play.

          Easy. I order "Along the valleys and hills".
          Quote: Tank Hard
          And surplus funds always attract some attention.

          Attract the attention of inattentive citizens wink
        2. Tank hard
          Tank hard 18 December 2020 19: 15
          -7
          Quote: Stroporez
          Easy. "Along the valleys and hills" I order

          Dreaming is not forbidden. laughing
          Quote: Stroporez
          Attract the attention of inattentive citizens

          Who needs to be watched for a long time. I repeat, the seeds have already been stored. wink
        3. Sling cutter
          Sling cutter 18 December 2020 19: 21
          +5
          Quote: Tank Hard
          Who needs to be watched for a long time. I repeat, the seeds have already been stored.

          Well lutskay bye laughing
        4. Tank hard
          Tank hard 18 December 2020 19: 33
          +1
          Quote: Stroporez
          Well lutskay bye

          The moderators will demolish us, they will slap the next one for the flood and they will be right. wink laughing
  • Aag
    Aag 18 December 2020 21: 07
    +2
    Quote: Horon
    I compare: the right to surf the Internet and criticism of the state (for the criticism of the party, even in the yard on a bench in the Union there was a real term), the right to housing for every taste and wallet (the housing that can be bought or built today is limited only by your own imagination and the amounts that you have), the right to choose purchases in the store (no need to tell that in the Union there was a choice in the stores, I lived then and I take it as a lie, since I had to go to the city for shopping and queue up for several hours without a guarantee to buy what you need and in the right amount), the right to freedom of movement (they have already forgotten about the limit, and it is better not to remember about issuing passports for rural residents at all), a ban on the exploitation of child labor (in the Union this was only said, But in reality, it is not uncommon to substitute labor education for exploitation, to work for free is not exploitation, is it?). And the phrase "at the request of the workers!" - not invented today. The concept of "voluntary-compulsory" is also not a modern invention. Yes, now, too, is not better, somewhere even worse, but the lie about the beautiful "yesterday" just gives the authorities a tool for "tightening the screws", at the request of the workers and on a voluntary-compulsory basis.
    The author Skomorokhov deliberately twisted the concepts in the article, since the law will primarily affect dishonest journalists or journalists. After all, it is no longer possible to trust a single publishing house - lie, sir. Everyone lies!

    On other points, you were answered (for the most part, I agree). I will confine myself to this: ".... the prohibition on the exploitation of child labor (in the Union this was only said, but in reality, it was not uncommon for exploitation to be substituted by labor education, to work for free is not operation, huh?). "
    Well, really, do not juggle!
    First, it was interesting, useful and informative, if it was forced by a collective, the overwhelming majority (from a class of 30 people, for various reasons, there could be one, maximum two people).
    By "free" ... "LOTOS" (summer detachment of work and recreation for high school students) allowed not only to get acquainted with the realities of life (social adaptation, as they say now), to get an idea of ​​a particular profession, travel around the country, have fun time, but also make money! 1982, Latvia, 9th grade, field work on a collective farm, weeding beets, mainly living in a modest, cozy hostel on the shore of the lake, very decent, even according to Baltic standards, food, discos on their own ... The minimum wage is about 40 rubles for an incomplete month, the majority received about 90 rubles. The maximum, my childhood friend, is -145 rubles ("Vesna" tape recorder)
    Now you still have to pay for this! Or am I wrong?
  • Aag
    Aag 18 December 2020 16: 07
    +11
    Quote: Horon
    They wrote well and beautifully, only people were slaves not to landlords and industrialists, but to the state! The fact that slavery was condemned does not mean that the attitude towards people was better. The exploitation of man by man was replaced by the exploitation of man by the state (read by the party), and so: "we are not slaves ...", bully
    PS How many cons will fly to me now! wassat In someone else's eye ... as they say.

    Was it not the state that built schools, hospitals, cinemas? Later, reduced the working day? ...
    1. Horon
      Horon 18 December 2020 16: 34
      -8
      And now they are building hospitals and schools, but according to the law, both then and now an 8-hour working day. But that then they did not disdain processing, what now. Then, in order to receive a bonus and not fly out of the queue for a house / car, now, so as not to lose your job and, accordingly, pay off loans and mortgages. Just don’t attribute the discussion of rights and freedoms here. Communists criticizing the restriction of the right to freedom of speech are no better than modern officials reflecting on the usefulness of the pasta menu for the poor. Both are disingenuous.
      1. Aag
        Aag 18 December 2020 16: 42
        +11
        "... Then in order to get a bonus and not get out of line for a house / car, now so as not to lose your job ..."
        Those. admit that the carrot was exchanged for a whip?
        Yes, and about the 8-hour working day (by the way, when was it introduced?) Recently in private offices (of which more and more) it is not customary to remember. Whoever remembers soon begins to remember that he recently had a job.))
        1. Horon
          Horon 18 December 2020 20: 32
          -1
          In Europe, too, the communists introduced an 8-hour working day? And the whip is also not so easy. Now they don't go to jail for lack of work, but a carrot, just give me money. So the whip was rather there, my parents worked for a long time for "sticks" for 10-12 hours until they went to work on the railway, since they already had passports.

          Judging by the minuses, someone burns out from the prose of Soviet life, apparently the children of party workers, those who did not have time to settle down to the trough today. Alas, guys, nothing shines for you. You differ from today's leaders only in rhetoric. winked
          1. Aag
            Aag 18 December 2020 21: 24
            +1
            "... In Europe, too, the communists introduced an 8-hour working day? ..."
            About the competition between the two systems, please remember. About the Western trade unions (admittedly, they seem to be more effective than ours, well, remember what demarches shook Europe then? With reference to the experience of the Union! Isn't that so?).
          2. Aag
            Aag 18 December 2020 22: 10
            0
            "....
            Judging by the minuses, someone burns out from the prose of Soviet life, apparently the children of party workers, those who did not have time to settle down to the trough today. Alas, guys, nothing shines for you. You differ from today's leaders only in rhetoric. winked ... "
            I can imagine perfectly well that for all the scale of the Union, it was different in different regions. Judging by the comments, yours is not very ... But, firstly, this does not negate the country's achievements at that Soviet stage. - secondly, if we talk about the "children of party workers", then many did not leave the "feeding trough". And the number of those who remember and stand up for the Union speaks of the demand of society for social justice. Opportunity to work honestly, and to live with dignity, without excesses. , deserved ... Only!
            You are not jarred by the realities when a person with 40 years of experience receives a pension of about 11 tyr, (already a frightening figure at current prices and tariffs for housing and communal services), and never gets about 10, who has never worked anywhere? And many complain about equalization under the USSR.
  • Starover_Z
    Starover_Z 18 December 2020 10: 36
    +3
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    The government needs not just slaves, but dumb slaves.

    If only because it is possible to slander a person out of ignorance, or through misinterpretation of facts.

    Is the site called "Military Review"? Do you need any clarifications?
    Line up! Be equal! Attention! Talkers in the ranks! Ma-al-chat I said !!!
    1. Insurgent
      Insurgent 18 December 2020 10: 43
      +4
      Quote: Starover_Z
      Is the site called "Military Review"? Do you need any clarifications?
      Line up! Be equal! Attention! Talkers in the ranks! Ma-al-chat I said !!!

      Commander / chief /, always right... Further on the points that are not subject to discussion.
      Now this well-known army postulate is being "pulled" on officials.
      1. boriz
        boriz 18 December 2020 11: 55
        +3
        The commander / chief / is always right. Further on the points that are not subject to discussion.

        There are only two points:
        1. The commander is always right.
        2. If the commander is wrong - see item 1.
      2. Machito
        Machito 18 December 2020 12: 02
        +5
        Quote: Insurgent
        Quote: Starover_Z
        Is the site called "Military Review"? Do you need any clarifications?
        Line up! Be equal! Attention! Talkers in the ranks! Ma-al-chat I said !!!

        Commander / chief /, always right... Further on the points that are not subject to discussion.
        Now this well-known army postulate is being "pulled" on officials.

        Ma-al-chat, I'm listening to you !!!! laughing
        1. Insurgent
          Insurgent 18 December 2020 12: 09
          +4
          Quote: Bearded
          Ma-al-chat, I'm listening to you !!!!

          Exactly yes This is the basis of the model of communication between the authorities and the people.
          At the same time, the authorities are apparently so self-confident, or simply stupid, that they do not understand the harmfulness of such actions.
          At one time, when it was "ripe" in RI, the tsar preferred "Bloody Resurrection" to reforms and dialogue with the lower classes.

          Now the same thing is repeated, there is no dialogue, and Gapon is missing ...
      3. aleksejkabanets
        aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 12: 32
        +6
        Quote: Insurgent
        Now this well-known army postulate is being "pulled" on officials.

        Long ago pulled already. Try to "oppose" the village head, at once SES will tell you how the manure should be stored, the vets will take a fine and slaughter a pig, etc.
        1. Insurgent
          Insurgent 18 December 2020 12: 33
          0
          Quote: aleksejkabanets
          Long ago pulled already.

          Well, that means they are fixing it now.
          1. aleksejkabanets
            aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 12: 38
            +3
            Quote: Insurgent
            Well, that means they are fixing it now.

            Quote: Insurgent
            These unhealthy symptoms are now manifested in the system of government.

            All this will end in blood. Unfortunately.
            1. Insurgent
              Insurgent 18 December 2020 12: 44
              +5
              Quote: aleksejkabanets
              All this will end in blood. Unfortunately.

              So far, from pumping up Rossgvardia with resources, it is obvious that the authorities are not at all inclined towards dialogue and socio-political reforms.
              But you can't hold out on bayonets for long ...
              1. aleksejkabanets
                aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 12: 48
                +3
                Quote: Insurgent
                So far, from pumping up Rossgvardia with resources, it is obvious that the authorities are not at all inclined towards dialogue and socio-political reforms.
                But you can't hold out on bayonets for long ...

                This is true. In the meantime, let's see how the trial of Platoshkin will end. He will show a lot.
                1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Alexander Kopychev
              Alexander Kopychev 18 December 2020 13: 09
              +4
              Quote: aleksejkabanets
              All this will end in blood. Unfortunately.

              It will all start with blood !!! For soldiers to appear at the rallies with Mosin on his shoulder, it took a world massacre.
  • Pushkowed
    Pushkowed 18 December 2020 11: 01
    +9
    The government needs not just slaves, but dumb slaves.
    Eh, poor government! Well, nothing has learned from anyone. Neither among the "infallible" majesties-autocrats, nor among the nomenklatura, whose teaching is "correct because it is correct."

    Slaves are not eager to warn the slave owner of threats that he is not aware of.
    А dumb slaves cannot do this even in theory.
    The refusal of the subject from feedback with the control object is a loss of control.
    1. Insurgent
      Insurgent 18 December 2020 11: 46
      +7
      Quote: Pushkowed
      The refusal of the subject from feedback with the control object is a loss of control.

      These unhealthy symptoms are now manifested in the system of government.
    2. evgen1221
      evgen1221 18 December 2020 19: 55
      +2
      Well, the last 2 years 20-21 it is clearly visible. Loss of control and systemic crisis of society.
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 11: 09
    -4
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    The government needs not just slaves, but dumb slaves.

    No. The government needs honest citizens.
    1. dzvero
      dzvero 18 December 2020 11: 17
      +10
      Um, honest citizens don't really need government, especially in their current forms ...
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 14: 50
        +2
        Quote: dzvero
        Um, honest citizens don't really need government, especially in their current forms ...

        What nonsense. A mass of honest people need a leader to accomplish a task. Without a leader, every honest citizen will do it in his own way. As a result, the task will not be completed due to chaos.
        1. dzvero
          dzvero 18 December 2020 14: 57
          +4
          The organization and management of society should be. I meant that the current form of government is used for personal enrichment (but not spiritual or cultural).
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 15: 03
            0
            Quote: dzvero
            The organization and management of society should be. I meant that the current form of government is used for personal enrichment (but not spiritual or cultural).

            You're right. But ... everything is a little more complicated
    2. evgen1221
      evgen1221 18 December 2020 19: 56
      +1
      Well, as if by the actions of this government and you can't say that he needs honest ones (although honestly to transfer kickbacks to the common fund, then yes, they are needed)
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 20: 25
        +1
        Quote: evgen1221
        Well, as if by the actions of this government and you can't say that he needs honest ones (although honestly to transfer kickbacks to the common fund, then yes, they are needed)

        Well, you see, honest ones are needed. It's much easier with honest ones, even for you, even for the government.
  • YOUR
    YOUR 18 December 2020 11: 23
    +8
    Give me the 58th !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! At the request of the workers and Tereshkova.
    1. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 14: 51
      -1
      Quote: YOUR
      Give me the 58th !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! At the request of the workers and Tereshkova.

      And the first applicants for it are Posner, Svanidze ...
      1. YOUR
        YOUR 18 December 2020 15: 22
        -1
        Well, well .... More Chubais and Sobchak drag in. Nothing but talking
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 16: 08
          -1
          Quote: YOUR
          Well, well .... More Chubais and Sobchak drag in. Nothing but talking

          Judging by the harm that Chubais did, why not?
          1. YOUR
            YOUR 19 December 2020 04: 09
            0
            Yes, because all these words are nothing more. 20 years of talking about how bad he is and how his wow, but only from one bread position to another
          2. YOUR
            YOUR 19 December 2020 04: 12
            0
            And Sobchachka? Demonstratively in Kiev, she staged a hysteria as Ukraine finally threw off the Russian yoke and gave Crimea back to Ukraine, and nothing. Draw your own conclusions, otherwise they will really introduce and drag the 58th.
      2. aleksejkabanets
        aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 19: 30
        +2
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        And the first applicants for it are Posner, Svanidze ...

        Alas, there will be Semin, Platoshkin, Shevchenko, etc. And Posner, Svanidze and other husks will continue to work with talking heads.
  • bk316
    bk316 18 December 2020 11: 26
    -6
    The government needs not just slaves, but dumb slaves.

    You're just not lying. laughing
  • Machito
    Machito 18 December 2020 12: 00
    +1
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    The government needs not just slaves, but dumb slaves.

    Judging by the new bill, your allegorical statement that the government needs workers who will not criticize it falls under the category of slander, and will allow you to be fined 1 million rubles. Insanity grew stronger, but our tanks are fast.
  • Berber
    Berber 18 December 2020 16: 37
    -1
    And here are slaves or not slaves. Any state is an apparatus of violence against a person. Finding a reasonable balance of freedom is a very difficult task. Anarchy is the top bar for freedom. Do you think it will suit everyone? For the sake of safety, the opportunity to work and develop, you need to sacrifice a part of your freedom. The rest is nuance. Including the selfish interests of some people in power.
  • Tank hard
    Tank hard 18 December 2020 16: 52
    -3
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    The government needs not just slaves, but dumb slaves.

    Well, some citizens of other states, such as Ukraine, hope that they will not be affected by this Russian law "on libel", what do you think, Leader? wink
  • Senka naughty
    Senka naughty 18 December 2020 22: 52
    0
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    The government needs not just slaves, but dumb slaves.

    In-oot precisely for the fact that you offend the WHOLE PEOPLE OF THE COUNTRY calling them "slaves" will now answer according to the law, or filter the market, or put off money for a fine. They are struggling with your irresponsible stuffing, naturally you do not like it. Therefore, now you will be found and punished!
  • Antagonist
    Antagonist 19 December 2020 01: 35
    +5
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    The government needs not just slaves, but dumb slaves.

    The ancient Greek orator and publicist Isocrates wrote in his work Areopagetics: "The people should appoint representatives of power, and people who have sufficient leisure should devote themselves to caring for public affairs as servants of the people."
    Today the phrase "Servant of the people" sounds ridiculous.
  • sniperino
    sniperino 19 December 2020 11: 20
    0
    Quote: Leader of the Redskins
    The government needs not just slaves, but dumb slaves.
    Are you a talking slave or do you have a different government?
  • Mikhalych
    Mikhalych 20 December 2020 14: 35
    +1
    The government needs not just slaves, but dumb slaves.

    You dear
    Leader of the Redskins (Nazarius)
    do not worry about the government, but about your words. On the Internet, so much feces splash out that sometimes it stinks through the computer. Now we can confidently repeat after the classic: “There were worse times, but there were no mean ones”. And about the slaves:
    everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin (John 8:34).
    ... Therefore, try not to sin and you will never be a slave to anyone.
    hi
  • Civil
    Civil 18 December 2020 10: 16
    +2


    What a prophetic film) or else there will be
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 18 December 2020 11: 34
      +8
      "Boys, why not muzzles? The order of Mr. PZh - all the boys to put on muzzles and rejoice"! ..
      Quote: Civil
      What a prophetic movie
      1. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 18 December 2020 11: 46
        +10
        Quote: Uncle Lee
        "Boys, why not muzzles? The order of Mr. PZh - all the boys to put on muzzles and rejoice"! ..

        How is it not in muzzles? Muzzled and even fashionable now.
        1. Uncle lee
          Uncle lee 18 December 2020 11: 52
          +11
          Quote: Stroporez
          Muzzled

        2. Senka naughty
          Senka naughty 18 December 2020 22: 59
          -1
          Quote: Stroporez
          Quote: Uncle Lee
          "Boys, why not muzzles? The order of Mr. PZh - all the boys to put on muzzles and rejoice"! ..

          How is it not in muzzles? Muzzled and even fashionable now.

          The trolls fuss laughing All the freebies are over, now you will pay for lies in rubles. But America is rich, if a worthy troll will help out ..
  • paul3390
    paul3390 18 December 2020 10: 16
    +16
    Ilyich was right when he said - either the dictatorship of the proletariat or the dictatorship of the big bourgeoisie. There is no third. Here is the formation of this very dictatorship we are in full growth and behold .. And the further - the more it will tighten the screws, for there are no limits to their greed and shamelessness ..

    Although - we have, perhaps, rather a feudal-digital dictatorship .. Like a new word in the social organization of mankind ..
    1. sniperino
      sniperino 19 December 2020 17: 43
      -2
      Quote: paul3390
      Although - we have, perhaps, rather a feudal-digital dictatorship
      You pour sweat on the CJSC "State Farm named after Lenin", and transfer the money for the strawberries grown and sold to the feudal lord's account ... Or what?
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 18 December 2020 10: 25
    +4
    Quote: Svarog
    it may happen that on you just go to court.. didn’t seem to slander, but someone decided .. that it’s still slander ..


    Simply, I think, they will not be served, because if the libel is not proven, then the claimant should be charged for libel, plus he will be awarded legal costs.
    1. rocket757
      rocket757 18 December 2020 10: 32
      +6
      Quote: Olgovich
      I just don't think they will serve

      To make responsible for the false "bazaar" is USEFUL!
      They will be balabolit less, maybe they will be engaged in business ... besides, just scold someone, there is NO sense! you have something against, look for ways to prove, resist and so on, so on.
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 18 December 2020 12: 32
        +10
        hi hi good morning and good day Victor,
        Quote: rocket757
        Quote: Olgovich
        I just don't think they will serve

        To make responsible for the false "bazaar" is USEFUL!
        They will be balabolit less, maybe they will be engaged in business ... besides, just scold someone, there is NO sense! you have something against, look for ways to prove, resist and so on, so on.

        Look, and if a bureaucrat grits young --- gudarstvo owes you nothing ..... is this slander against the state? In theory?
        Another thing, court costs --- can be endless ...
        1. aleksejkabanets
          aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 12: 41
          +4
          Quote: Reptiloid
          Look, and if a bureaucrat grits young --- gudarstvo owes you nothing ..... is this slander against the state? In theory?

          This is true, but the claim, in this case, will have to be filed by the state. It is, in theory, the injured party. I think that according to this law, officials cannot be attracted for such nonsense. The state does not surrender "its" people.
        2. rocket757
          rocket757 18 December 2020 12: 44
          +1
          Quote: Reptiloid
          goodness owes you nothing

          Hi Dmitry soldier
          Judging by trifles ... we almost did not get accustomed to this. Fortunately, now you can fix and put on public display all sorts of shoals of employees and other servicemen ... it can even reach the highest authorities. And there, due to the accompanying circumstances, the case is decided or not. In different ways, in short.
          1. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid 18 December 2020 13: 01
            +3
            Yes, Victor, judging by trifles may not be petty at all, but very expensive. Not every person can afford it. And --- the icing on the cake --- the losing side must pay the opponent's expenses ...
            And what about reputational damage to the state from such expressions?
            1. rocket757
              rocket757 18 December 2020 13: 34
              +1
              Well, over the hill and "our" oligarchs were left without ports ... because they are judging by the concepts, they do not eat like they have there in the high courts of London and Paris !!!
              1. Reptiloid
                Reptiloid 18 December 2020 13: 47
                +3
                Quote: Reptiloid
                Yes, Victor, judging by trifles may not be petty at all, but very expensive. Not every person can afford it. And --- the icing on the cake --- the losing side must pay the opponent's expenses ...
                And what about reputational damage to the state from such expressions?

                What is it about. They put the squeeze on them there. Now here the strong will squeeze the weak.
                1. rocket757
                  rocket757 18 December 2020 14: 36
                  +1
                  Well, the capitalist international, a conditional value ... i.e. how to rob someone else, they can work together, but they will share in such a way that teeth, fluff and feathers will fly in all directions!
                  It is clear who has a wider mouth, stronger claw teeth, more accomplices, he wins, in profit ...
                  1. Reptiloid
                    Reptiloid 18 December 2020 14: 47
                    +3
                    We have already talked about their disapproving attitude towards young money, but they are trying to come up with something else. Moreover, more and more unsubstantiated appointment of the perpetrators. ..
                    How will we go about this new law ...
                    1. rocket757
                      rocket757 18 December 2020 14: 51
                      +1
                      Ha, we would have their worries ... but their worries do not bother us in any way and never ...
                    2. Reptiloid
                      Reptiloid 18 December 2020 16: 36
                      +2
                      Quote: rocket757
                      Ha, we would have their worries ... but their worries do not bother us in any way and never ...

                      This is so .... but it seems to me that their "suffering" will affect the entire population.
                    3. rocket757
                      rocket757 18 December 2020 17: 26
                      +1
                      As always, unfortunately ... BUT, we ourselves screwed up on this issue and when we are going to fix everything, fig knows it.
                      But you have to, it itself will not dissolve, only it becomes fatter, it becomes bolder.
      2. Svarog
        Svarog 18 December 2020 15: 12
        +5
        Quote: rocket757
        Fortunately, now you can fix and make public all kinds of shoals of employees and other servicemen.

        Here is the law and is aimed at preventing such cases from being recorded .. or rather, so that even a thought does not arise, to conduct investigations and other exposing actions .. They do not want noise and dust .. they want to make money .. and they love silence, so they are protected from prying eyes ..
        But in general, this is all very stupid .. you can, of course, tighten the nuts, you can shut up everyone's mouths .. only there was no Internet in 1917 .. but the 17th year happened .. and so it turns out, they only bring this time closer with their stupidity.
        1. rocket757
          rocket757 18 December 2020 17: 29
          +3
          Quote: Svarog
          This law is aimed at preventing such cases from being recorded ..

          This is THEIR coordinate system, we are simply present in it ...
          It will be so until it reaches the majority, which is different, but it happens only when YOURSELF. everything TOGETHER, we take and fix everything and everything for ourselves, for everyone.
          1. Reptiloid
            Reptiloid 18 December 2020 20: 30
            +3
            I was always surprised that the First RUSSIAN REVOLUTION took place throughout the Republic of Ingushetia for more than one year. After all, what was the connection then? You can't even imagine it. By the way, somehow they did not remember, in my opinion, the centenary of this event? Like 1917. Officially
    2. Aag
      Aag 18 December 2020 16: 28
      +2
      "... Another thing, legal costs --- can be endless ..."
      Do not lawyers lobby this topic?))
      1. Reptiloid
        Reptiloid 18 December 2020 16: 40
        +2
        Quote: AAG
        "... Another thing, legal costs --- can be endless ..."
        Do not lawyers lobby this topic?))

        nothing is ever solved at once, duration ...
        1. Aag
          Aag 18 December 2020 17: 30
          +2
          Quote: Reptiloid
          Quote: AAG
          "... Another thing, legal costs --- can be endless ..."
          Do not lawyers lobby this topic?))

          nothing is ever solved at once, duration ...

          Apparently, that's the reason ...
          Maybe someone will mention that some have reserved the time for themselves, I won't ...)))
          In general, if you go over our comments on this site with knowledge of the matter and with a specific purpose, after the adoption of the law it will be possible to replenish the budget quite robustly. (They can forget about the retroactive force of the law, back number.) And at the same time it will be possible to get rid of some of the inconvenient in the literal sense, for how to survive a person deprived of salary for six months. You can put together a whole army of labor force, - we read about forced labor ...
          It is not profitable to bring to such "strictness" as real terms, it is necessary to feed, and communal apartments fall out ...))))
  • Svarog
    Svarog 18 December 2020 10: 35
    +9
    Quote: Olgovich
    Quote: Svarog
    it may happen that on you just go to court.. didn’t seem to slander, but someone decided .. that it’s still slander ..


    Simply, I think, they will not be served, because if the libel is not proven, then the claimant should be charged for libel, plus he will be awarded legal costs.

    Yeah .. suppose a situation .. let's say sitting here on the site, some kind of official .. or a guard .. Someone from the commentators, spoke out against a specific character in power .. gave a link that he found on YouTube or somewhere else .. he was filed to court .. for some reason I am sure that he will lose the court .. Take Rogozin's case from the last ones .. someone expressed an opinion .. that he is destroying our space industry .. Rogozin sued .. and won .. but in another way and it cannot be in our state ..
    1. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 11: 35
      +1
      Quote: Svarog
      will lose .. Take the Rogozin case from the last ones .. someone expressed an opinion .. that he is destroying our space industry .. Rogozin sued .. and won .. and there can be no other way in our state ..

      The word "BROKEN" speaks of a PURPOSE deed. Is there a purposeful act to break up the industry? Therefore, it is correct that he won the trial. The journalist had to prove the incompetence of the official in his article, and not the purposeful collapse.
    2. aleksejkabanets
      aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 12: 45
      +4
      Quote: Svarog
      Some of the commentators spoke out against a specific character in power .. gave a link that I found on YouTube or elsewhere .. they sued him .. for some reason I am sure that he will lose the court ..

      As the law is adopted, you want to speak, only through the torus + vpn + proxy. Something like this.
      1. Svarog
        Svarog 18 December 2020 13: 27
        +2
        Quote: aleksejkabanets
        Quote: Svarog
        Some of the commentators spoke out against a specific character in power .. gave a link that I found on YouTube or elsewhere .. they sued him .. for some reason I am sure that he will lose the court ..

        As the law is adopted, you want to speak, only through the torus + vpn + proxy. Something like this.

        They will find it anyway ... with a special desire ..
        1. aleksejkabanets
          aleksejkabanets 18 December 2020 13: 55
          +4
          Quote: Svarog
          with a special desire ..

          Yes, this is key.
  • Insurgent
    Insurgent 18 December 2020 10: 49
    +6
    Quote: Olgovich

    Simply, I think, they will not be served, because if the libel is not proven, then the claimant should be charged for libel, plus he will be awarded legal costs.

    Yes, leave this naive belief that, for example, an official with influence will be afraid to sue a person for pointing out some of his dark deeds ...

    The court is something of a tongue.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 18 December 2020 11: 34
      +2
      Quote: Insurgent
      Yes, leave this naive belief that, for example, an official with influence will be afraid to sue a person for pointing out some of his dark deeds ...

      Non-officials, after all, 98,5% of the population
      1. Insurgent
        Insurgent 18 December 2020 11: 37
        +4
        Quote: Olgovich
        Non-officials, after all, 98,5% of the population


        That does not prevent 1,5% from "fastening" the remaining 98,5% so that the jacket is wrapped.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 19 December 2020 11: 07
          0
          Quote: Insurgent
          "the remaining 98,5%

          And 98,5% do not swear with each other, do not write accusations, insults, slander, etc. - are they all white and fluffy?

          And yes, the officials did not fly from Mars, but left 98,5%.

          And if someone from 98,5% is arranged by an official, then you yourself know WHAT will happen ...
          1. Insurgent
            Insurgent 20 December 2020 10: 36
            -1
            Quote: Olgovich
            And yes, the officials did not fly from Mars, but left 98,5%.

            And I thought that out of 100 ... They came out, but 98,5 remained ... And you see, what a math recourse
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 20 December 2020 11: 05
              0
              Quote: Insurgent
              They left, but 98,5 remained ..
              Make any of 98.5% an officer.

              And it will be the same.
              1. Insurgent
                Insurgent 20 December 2020 11: 08
                0
                Quote: Olgovich
                Make any of 98.5% an officer.

                And it will be the same.


                Or maybe the "fish" just rotting?

                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 20 December 2020 12: 32
                  0
                  Quote: Insurgent
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Make any of 98.5% an officer.

                  And it will be the same.


                  Or maybe the "fish" just rotting?


                  You will be surprised, but there was: see corruption under Stalin, this is the Top Court, etc., etc.

                  And yes, officials under him grew TEN TIMES compared to Russia (RI)
    2. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 18 December 2020 14: 55
      +1
      Quote: Insurgent
      ...... but leave this naive belief that, for example, an official with influence will be afraid to sue a person for pointing out some of his dark deeds ...

      Material possibilities and influence are different. A support group, so to speak ....
    3. Aag
      Aag 18 December 2020 16: 34
      +2
      "... The court, something drawbar ...."
      They (the courts) will not forget this!))
  • Boris ⁣ Shaver
    Boris ⁣ Shaver 18 December 2020 10: 50
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    Claimant should be prosecuted for libel

    Citizen A claims that Citizen B is actually a citizen.
    Citizen B applies to the competent authorities with a request to check citizen A for the presence of corpus delicti in his statement.
    During the proceedings, citizen A proves that citizen B is indeed a citizen.

    Question. How do you plan to prosecute citizen B for libel if she has not made a single statement?
    1. Insurgent
      Insurgent 18 December 2020 11: 01
      0
      Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
      Citizen A claims that Citizen B is actually a citizen.
      Citizen B applies to the competent authorities with a request to check citizen A for the presence of corpus delicti in his statement.
      During the proceedings, citizen A proves that citizen B is indeed a citizen.


      God forbid !


      New US Secretary of Education.
      Transgender Charlotte Claymer.
      The appointment came as part of Biden's strategy to maximize racial and gender diversity.

      1. Insurgent
        Insurgent 18 December 2020 11: 24
        +3
        Quote: Insurgent
        God forbid !


        New US Secretary of Education.
        Transgender Charlotte Claymer.

        Help! Transgender are attacking minus laughing wassat
        1. rocket757
          rocket757 18 December 2020 11: 39
          +1
          One SALVATION, publicly we will not see such ... I hope. I'd rather look at the cutie Psaki !!! Everything is fine there, at least for now.
          1. Insurgent
            Insurgent 18 December 2020 11: 40
            +2
            Quote: rocket757
            One SALVATION, publicly we will not see such ... I hope.

            Well, really, pretty? lol
            1. rocket757
              rocket757 18 December 2020 12: 11
              +5
              Quote: Insurgent
              Well, really, pretty?

              We can assume that for an amateur ... but well, her naf and away, along with all the fans of this.
              1. Insurgent
                Insurgent 18 December 2020 12: 11
                +2
                Quote: rocket757
                We can assume that for an amateur ... but well, her naf and away, along with all the fans of this.

                laughing yes
                1. rocket757
                  rocket757 18 December 2020 12: 35
                  +2
                  It turns out that we have amateurs and SUCH! Look how minus.
                  Fortunately, there are not many of them here, otherwise it's straight fu fu fu.
            2. Victorio
              Victorio 20 December 2020 22: 24
              0
              Quote: Insurgent
              Quote: rocket757
              One SALVATION, publicly we will not see such ... I hope.

              Well really, babe ? lol

              ===
              ) beauties
        2. Boris ⁣ Shaver
          Boris ⁣ Shaver 18 December 2020 12: 01
          +4
          Maybe people have just such a reaction to the posted photo?)
          1. Insurgent
            Insurgent 18 December 2020 12: 32
            0
            Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
            Maybe people have just such a reaction to the posted photo?)

            So inadequate? But then how do they differ from the mentally ill "transgender"?
  • Revival
    Revival 18 December 2020 23: 56
    +2
    It depends on what (who) the plaintiff is, it will always be "slander"
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 18 December 2020 10: 32
    +4
    Quote: Svarog
    And then what ... and then, of course, you will prove (if there was no slander) but you will spend a lot on lawyers.
    I see a way out, just stop laughing: to automatically attach a certificate to the criticism "A request has been sent to the prosecutor's office on this matter." And then in the newspapers they write some horrors, but nothing about the request to the authorities on this matter.
  • Ratmir_Ryazan
    Ratmir_Ryazan 18 December 2020 10: 39
    -10%
    Don't talk nonsense.

    It is high time such a law was passed so that some would think that they are writing on social networks.
    1. Victorio
      Victorio 18 December 2020 10: 47
      -5
      Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
      Don't talk nonsense.

      It is high time such a law was passed so that some would think that they are writing on social networks.

      ===
      I agree. maybe there will be less dirt in the internet. and the responsibility is higher.
      1. sniperino
        sniperino 19 December 2020 18: 43
        0
        Quote: Victorio
        maybe there will be less dirt in the internet.
        It’s not so much about dirt as a lie. In information war, this is the enemy's main weapon. The answer is only needed asymmetric, because lying is not good.
    2. Boris ⁣ Shaver
      Boris ⁣ Shaver 18 December 2020 11: 09
      +6
      Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan
      for some to think

      So it is embarrassing that the "target" of the law may well become just some. Due to the vagueness of the very event of the offense, there is a reason for certain liberties to people with certain powers and / or friends of the latter.
      For example, legislation relating to necessary physical self-defense is regularly criticized for, shall we say, imperfection of its action. But at least there is a "tangible" event of the offense. But still. And here - even the event will not happen.
  • Starover_Z
    Starover_Z 18 December 2020 11: 00
    +3
    Quote: Svarog
    This is the whole catch .. it may happen that they just sue you .. it seems that he did not slander, but someone decided .. that it’s still libel .. And then what .. and then, of course, you will prove (if it was not slander) but you will spend a lot on lawyers.

    The deputy sued a pensioner for a real threat to his life, who shouted to the deputy: "You must be forced to live on my pension!" ...

    In short, we are silent and OK!
  • bk316
    bk316 18 December 2020 11: 23
    -7
    ... it may happen that they just sue you .. it seems that he didn’t slander, but someone decided .. that it’s still libel ..

    And you're just not balabolte,
    - tell only the KNOWN truth - that is, proven facts
    - about everything else, say "in my personal opinion, NOT BASED ON ANYTHING."
    - if you do not want to say "not based on anything," again, give the facts

    I even sympathize with you in something, how will you write comments now, you regularly insert pro-stamps like "everything stole" "everything destroyed" "name stole" - this is now an article right away.
    1. Svarog
      Svarog 18 December 2020 11: 31
      +5
      - tell only the KNOWN truth - that is, proven facts

      Is our president a balabol or not? That's when he asks to treat with understanding ... And if I treat the powder with understanding, they will understand me or they will award 1 lam ..
      The fact that the president is balabol is a fact .. or not? Or can you be a little pregnant in this case?
      1. bk316
        bk316 18 December 2020 13: 36
        -5
        if I treat the powder with understanding, they will understand me or I will be awarded ..

        If you ask with understanding, they will not be awarded.
        But if you call the president a balabol, you will be awarded. AND EVEN A NEW LAW IS NOT NEEDED FOR THIS. Has already. belay
        But I say it again, this is not about you. You pour clichés with slogans and all sorts of nonsense. Between which sometimes sound correct thoughts slip through. And pay attention, I always note this rare fact laughing
        1. Svarog
          Svarog 18 December 2020 14: 03
          +8
          But if you call the president a balabol, you will be awarded. AND EVEN A NEW LAW IS NOT NEEDED FOR THIS. Has already.

          Here .... that is, a person who publicly lies throughout the country - not balabol .. Who makes public promises and does not fulfill - not balabol .. And he will have nothing for it .. Although he has responsibility, by virtue of the situation, much more .. at least it should be ..
          But if I call it a balabol .. it turns out that I get 1 ml. rub .. Although I stated a fact. And what, for whom and for whom are we writing laws?
          1. Tank hard
            Tank hard 18 December 2020 18: 43
            -2
            Quote: Svarog
            Here .... that is, a person who publicly lies throughout the country - not balabol .. Who makes public promises and does not fulfill - not balabol .. And he will have nothing for it .. Although he has responsibility, by virtue of the situation, much more .. at least it should be ..
            But if I call it balabol .. it turns out I get 1 ml. rub.
            ... Although I stated a fact. And what, for whom and for whom are we writing laws?

            svarog, you again confirm your rarest intellectual component! continue, I bought the seed. laughing
            1. Svarog
              Svarog 18 December 2020 21: 58
              +2
              Quote: Tank Hard

              svarog, you again confirm your rarest intellectual component! continue, I bought the seed.

              I wish I could hear more from you .. though something reasonable .. open the veil of your intellectual .. or is it lead? laughing
  • Hypertension
    Hypertension 18 December 2020 12: 27
    +4
    Quote: Svarog
    This is the whole catch .. it may happen that you are simply sued ..

    That's the whole point. The law is that tongue. If everyone began to answer for their words - good. But, as it usually happens ... It happens that boys of six years of age, having drunk a bottle of vodka, throw themselves under the wheels of the "judges" ... Whoever has a lawyer with a tongue is right; who has connections - he is right; whoever has more money is right.
    1. Svarog
      Svarog 18 December 2020 13: 28
      +6
      Quote: Hyperion
      Whoever has a lawyer is right; who has connections - he is right; whoever has more money is right.

      So it is .. and therefore they are driving us into slavery.
      1. Tank hard
        Tank hard 18 December 2020 18: 44
        -4
        Quote: Svarog
        So it is .. and therefore they are driving us into slavery.

        Everything is lost! wassat
  • A. Privalov
    A. Privalov 18 December 2020 14: 56
    +1
    Quote: Svarog
    Freedom becomes "more", the more the people "love" the government, the more the government reciprocates ..

    I was afraid that not today or tomorrow they would restore the 58th article in full, but at the same time, in the new edition, they would give retroactive effect. So don't be upset, Svarog. In fact, the Mountain gave birth to the Mouse. hi
    1. Svarog
      Svarog 18 December 2020 20: 36
      +2
      Quote: A. Privalov
      The mountain gave birth to the Mouse.

      This mountain too often began to give birth to mice .. there are more and more of them ..
      I was afraid that not today or tomorrow they would restore the 58th article in full

      Why would the enemies of the people restore an article about the enemies of the people? hi
      1. A. Privalov
        A. Privalov 18 December 2020 22: 07
        +2
        Quote: Svarog
        Why would the enemies of the people restore an article about the enemies of the people?

        "Enemies of the people" is nothing more than a figure of speech, a kind of cliche of the political rhetoric of the Stalinist period. In fact, most of clauses 58 of article have analogues in the modern criminal code. It's just that they are classified under different articles. It is not even the article itself that is important here, but the ability to bring any person under its point. It's just that I am quite familiar with the system and I understand perfectly well that at the right time, according to instructions from above, they will appoint very, very many the very "enemies of the people". This is what I am afraid of. hi
        1. Svarog
          Svarog 18 December 2020 22: 18
          +2
          Quote: A. Privalov
          It's just that I am quite familiar with the system and I understand perfectly well that at the right time, according to instructions from above, they will appoint very, very many the very "enemies of the people". This is what I am afraid of.

          The process has begun ... but here's a significant difference, at the time when communism was being built, everything was still oriented for the working person, that is, for the sake of justice for the majority ... now, similar processes, but everything is done for the sake of a pitiful handful of people .. We do not even have capitalism .. we are getting closer to feudalism .. the degradation of everything and everything on the face .. hi
          In other words, just like then, and now there is a struggle between the authorities, only then did the authorities protect the people, and now they are protecting themselves from their own citizens.
          1. A. Privalov
            A. Privalov 18 December 2020 23: 02
            +3
            Quote: Svarog
            but here is a significant difference, at the time when communism was built

            Do you support the theoretical substantiation of the struggle against the enemies of the people, as Stalin's concept of an intensification of the class struggle as the country moves towards socialism? Do you seriously think that all the repressions of those times were "for a working person, that is, for the sake of justice for the majority ..."?
            1. Svarog
              Svarog 18 December 2020 23: 31
              +3
              Quote: A. Privalov
              "for a working person, that is, for the sake of justice for the majority ..."?

              And for whom do you think? Stalin, after his death, left an overcoat, a pair of pipes and a pair of worn-out boots .. Education, medicine became available for the average person .. Only 14% of the population were educated in RI, there was no pharmaceutical industry at all .. social elevators worked much better than in RI and in the modern RF ..
              These are the facts ..
              Alexander, it is very pleasant to communicate with you, as far as I remember, you live in Israel but your thoughts and soul are with Russia .. Socialism and the whole period are unpleasant for you .. But answer honestly, do you consider modern Russia a more progressive state? A state where there is more justice than under the USSR? Or a state that has something to be proud of?
              Today's Russia does not have a base for development at all, under the base, I understand the idea .. which determines the vector .. under which, in turn, goals should be formed .. Do you see at least some vector of development in modern Russia? I don’t even know ... but what is the actual goal of the state ... it doesn’t ... or rather it is .. profiting from natural resources and the citizens of the country, it is subordinated to a narrow group of people who are neither statesmen nor patriots ..
              Do you support the theoretical substantiation of the struggle against the enemies of the people, as Stalin's concept of an intensification of the class struggle as the country moves towards socialism?

              Alexander, I will answer the question with a question .. Do you think there were no enemies? That there were no slaves, there were no peasants, serfs .. whom they lost at cards .. That hatred did not accumulate for centuries, towards ghouls and parasites .. So it splashed out in the end, with all proletarian sweep .. Do I like the fact that a lot of compatriots perished or crippled fate - of course not .. But is it possible without this, to create a socially just state .. I think it is impossible ..
              Let's take today's time .. It confirms that there is no democracy, that there is only capital that dictates the agenda .. And as it is profitable for him, so it will be .. and he does not care about laws, promises, citizens .. there is one right - the right of the strong .. more precisely the rich. Have created the illusion that it is possible to change the government through elections, legally, by voting .. Do you believe in that?
              1. A. Privalov
                A. Privalov 19 December 2020 14: 46
                +4
                Quote: Svarog
                You live in Israel, but your thoughts and soul are with Russia ..

                Right. Because I believe that Russians deserve a better life and attitude towards themselves from the State.
                Quote: Svarog
                Socialism and the whole period are unpleasant for you .. But answer honestly, do you consider modern Russia a more progressive state? A state where there is more justice than under the USSR? Or a state that has something to be proud of?

                I don't like the TA form of socialism, not socialism as a whole.
                No.
                No.
                It is up to the citizens of the country to be proud or not.
                Quote: Svarog
                Today's Russia does not have a base for development at all, under the base, I understand the idea .. which determines the vector .. under which, in turn, goals should be formed .. Do you see at least some vector of development in modern Russia? I don’t even know ... but what is the actual goal of the state ... it doesn’t ... or rather it is .. profiting from natural resources and the citizens of the country, it is subordinated to a narrow group of people who are neither statesmen nor patriots ..

                This is your opinion and you know better. Here, I can't say anything intelligible. And I have no right.
                Quote: Svarog
                ... I will answer the question with a question. Do you think there were no enemies?

                Probably, there were, but I hardly believe that all these people maliciously made their way into the highest ranks of the Red Army and in fact were enemies, spies of intelligence services of various states, participants in military-fascist conspiracies.
                In the period from 1937 to 1941, of the representatives of the highest command staff of the Red Army, they were shot:
                Marshals of the Soviet Union 2
                Commanders 1st and 2nd rank 19
                Fleet flagships 1st and 2nd rank 5
                Komkory 58
                Rank 1 flagships 5
                Divisional commander 122
                Kombrigi 201

                Do you believe that they were enemies, conspirators and spies? That they absolutely had to be hidden underground?
                The bulk of the victims of political repression in the Red Army in the pre-war years were the so-called members of the "military-fascist conspiracy" and "Trotskyist organizations" whose cases were considered by the Military Collegium of the USSR Supreme Court. In order to obtain the necessary testimony from the persons under investigation, they were massively subjected to bullying, beating and torture. The use of "physical measures" during the investigation against "enemies" and "spies" was authorized by the highest party and state leadership of the USSR. The overwhelming majority of commanders, chiefs and political workers accused of participating in the "military-fascist conspiracy" were sentenced to death by shooting. For only a few of them, this sentence, which was not immediately carried out, was subsequently commuted to forced labor camps.


                Quote: Svarog
                Have created the illusion that it is possible to change the government through elections, legally, by voting .. Do you believe in that?

                Currently, this does not work in Russia. In most countries of the world, pretty well, even despite all the technical difficulties. Today, the electoral system is not yet ready for online voting. But tomorrow, intervening will be no less difficult than withdrawing other people's money from banks. This happens, but rarely and not massively. hi
                1. Svarog
                  Svarog 19 December 2020 15: 07
                  -1
                  I don't like the TA form of socialism, not socialism as a whole.

                  This is very encouraging.
                  I do not want to condemn and repent for the history of socialism in Russia, at the same time, I understand that everything was not at all smooth .. and the path was thorny .. which makes it doubly unpleasant that in the 90s all this was passed, instead of to develop. This is already history and, unfortunately, there were very unpleasant moments in it ... as in the history of any other country. But there were significantly more great moments ... so much that administrative excesses and distortions fade .. The USSR defeated fascism, the USSR was the first in space and in other key areas .. It was the most socially oriented state on the planet .. and all this was created despite .. in the hardest times and relying only on the power of the idea and the people.
                  And I would like to see Russia as a socially oriented state, with replaceable leaders who would be responsible for their decisions and the decisions of their subordinates ... with a planned economy and with free medicine and education ..
                  Today, the electoral system is not yet ready for online voting. But tomorrow, intervening will be no less difficult than withdrawing other people's money from banks. This happens, but rarely and not massively.

                  Technological progress can be a great blessing ... as well as a great evil ... The actions of the leadership of our country indicate that for Russia it will be rather evil ..
                  And if you talk about it .. then imagine, today is a planned economy, with today's technological capabilities .. when a machine can calculate any needs for five years ahead, and satisfy production ..
                  If we had not surrendered the country and the idea, now we would be higher in development rates than China ... I am sure of that. hi
                  1. A. Privalov
                    A. Privalov 19 December 2020 16: 27
                    +2
                    Excesses and distortions that significantly affect millions of people are inherent exclusively in totalitarian states.

                    Where a revolutionary experiment of the “select and divide” type was carried out, when the “pickers”, “dividers”, “distributors”, and “drivers” felt the best, this was called socialism.
                    True, everything ended exactly when there was nothing and no one to take away. Then, "pickers" and "splitters" were put by the "distributors" and "drivers" against the wall, and the rest, under the leadership of those "distributors" and under pressure from the "drivers" had to work for that very guaranteed ration in exchange for simple but equal social good. This was called developed socialism.
                    For a while this system worked, but over time the "distributors" grew fat so that they were too lazy to distribute to everyone and they began to distribute only among themselves, then the system collapsed without any revolution ...

                    Today, it is completely unrealistic to return the country to socialism by peaceful means.
                    Even an "iron fist" will not be able to drive people back to socialism.
                    The worst civil war will be inevitable.
                    The 70s of the last century in Kampuchea will seem like a kindergarten on a green lawn compared to what can happen. I wouldn't wish that on my enemies either. hi
                    1. Svarog
                      Svarog 19 December 2020 17: 09
                      +1
                      hi
                      Where a revolutionary experiment of the “select and divide” type was carried out, when the “pickers”, “dividers”, “distributors”, and “drivers” felt the best, this was called socialism.

                      Alesander, and who was taken away from? From those who for centuries have taken and used free or almost free hired labor.
                      True, everything ended exactly when there was nothing and no one to take away.

                      It ended not for this reason .. but for the reason that those who were taken away from them stopped resisting .. If we theoretically assume that the church would be with the people, and not for the ruling class .. then I am sure that nothing would be taken from the church. all the more since socialism is very consonant with the teachings of Christ.
                      This is a class struggle.
                      and under the pressure of the "drivers" they had to work for the very same guaranteed rations in exchange for simple but equal social benefits. This was called developed socialism.

                      It looks more like today .. well, at least in Russia this is exactly what happens. People work for 25-30 tons of rubles .. while there are no social benefits left ..
                      And in the USSR in the 80s ... I remember that time very well .. those who did not drink and worked, had everything they needed ..
                      This was called developed socialism.

                      The USSR did not reach developed socialism a little, I am sure that with the timely modernization of that political system, now they would live in developed socialism ..
                      Stalin wanted to leave behind the Communist Party only questions of personnel selection and propaganda ... but did not have time.
                      Eventually :
                      distributors "got fat so that they were too lazy to distribute to everyone and they began to distribute only among themselves

                      Today, it is completely unrealistic to return the country to socialism by peaceful means.

                      Here I agree with you .. the bourgeois will never give up power and money peacefully ..
                      Even an "iron fist" will not be able to drive people back to socialism.
                      The worst civil war will be inevitable.
                      The 70s of the last century in Kampuchea will seem like a kindergarten on a green lawn compared to what can happen. I wouldn't wish that on my enemies either.

                      In this part I do not agree.
                      First of all ... you don't need to get anyone out. The time will come when most of them themselves want .. and the time will surely come .. I think, in 15-20 years .. I have an older daughter, 24 years old .. (by the way, she regularly travels to Israel with her husband) And I often have to communicate with young people. So, five years ago ... no one was interested in politics ... now the situation is different ... young people (as I know) are all against Putin and are interested in the ideas of socialism with great curiosity ...
                      And I would not say so categorically what will happen if the socialists come to power .. I am sure that there will not be that bloodbath that you imagine .. very different situation, too strong stratification in society and practically none the middle class .. Own all the wealth of 1% of citizens of the population of Russia, well, plus 3-4% of servants .. this is a very low percentage of those who will resist .. Most likely, they will go abroad as soon as they smell fried.
                      The only chance to prevent such a situation is to create a middle class .. and develop free medicine, education and the work of "social elevators" .. But those who are now at the helm are not capable of this .. at all .. are not capable.
                      With us, when you open an individual entrepreneur, you already owe the state .. only 40 tons per year are insurance premiums .. another 5 thousand is account maintenance .. I mean that the middle class in our country will not be allowed to develop .. It will not be eaten by a competitor , but the state .. because it cannot touch the very rich, but you need to cut money ..
                    2. A. Privalov
                      A. Privalov 19 December 2020 17: 35
                      +1
                      Quote: Svarog
                      First of all ... you don't need to get anyone out. The time will come when most of them will want to ... and the time will surely come ... I think, in 15-20 years ... young people (as I know) are interested in the ideas of socialism with great curiosity ..
                      And I would not say so categorically what will happen if the socialists come to power .. I am sure that there will not be that bloodbath that you imagine .. very different situation, too strong stratification in society and practically none the middle class .. Own all the wealth of 1% of citizens of the population of Russia, well, plus 3-4% of servants .. this is a very low percentage of those who will resist .. Most likely, they will go abroad as soon as they smell fried.

                      20 years is a very long time ...
                      There are no ideologists of socialism today. If there are no theorists, then you can forget about practice. Young people are interested in socialism, whom grandmothers told about how they gave out free apartments and about delicious doctor's sausage.


                      Anyway, you will have to expropriate the enterprises from private traders. Nationalization of the means of production is indispensable. Together with the heavy industry, they will take away everything and joys, who sewed bags at home or riveted vegetable peelers in the garage. I know who I have to deal with. Voluntarily no one will part with the hard work they have acquired. And what will you do with hundreds of thousands of bribe-takers from officials of all levels? And what about the cops and other security officials, the guardians? Hang on the lanterns? What about organized crime? This is where it starts. Read about "pickers", etc. But we have already passed this.
                      No, Svarog, this number will not work. Don't even start. hi
                    3. Svarog
                      Svarog 19 December 2020 17: 49
                      +1
                      There are no ideologists of socialism today. If there are no theorists, then you can forget about practice. Young people are interested in socialism, whom grandmothers told about how they gave out free apartments and about delicious doctor's sausage.

                      You probably are not particularly interested in this topic for this reason, you do not have information ..
                      Here you can see the theorists ..

                      Here is the economy ..

                      Anyway, you will have to expropriate enterprises from private owners

                      Only the largest ..
                      Together with the heavy industry, they will take away everything and comfort, who sewed bags at home or riveted vegetable peelers in the garage

                      Personally, I am in favor of small and medium-sized businesses .. But under the control and with the help of the state ..
                      .
                      And what will you do with hundreds of thousands of bribe-takers from officials of all levels? And what about the cops and other security officials, the guardians? Hang on the lanterns?

                      I cannot speak for those who will implement all this ..))
                      but I am personally against terror and any hanging on lanterns .. Moreover, I am for an open state .. Security officials, cops, will have to go through investigations of their activities and if all the rules are at work, if not, on free bread or in accordance with the law ..
                      What about organized crime? This is where it starts. Read about "pickers", etc. But we have already passed this.

                      Organized crime exists only because it is beneficial to someone .. hi
                    4. A. Privalov
                      A. Privalov 19 December 2020 18: 11
                      +1
                      I watched the first video ...
                      On the second, there was not enough mental strength.
                      What do you care about the American youth and their fellow students?
                      Please accept my condolences, Vladimir ... hi
                    5. Svarog
                      Svarog 19 December 2020 18: 21
                      +1
                      Quote: A. Privalov
                      On the second, there was not enough mental strength.

                      The second is even more interesting))
                      I also recommend looking at Spitsyn's YouTube - historian ..
                      hi
                    6. A. Privalov
                      A. Privalov 19 December 2020 18: 32
                      +2
                      Quote: Svarog
                      Quote: A. Privalov
                      On the second, there was not enough mental strength.

                      The second is even more interesting))
                      I also recommend looking at Spitsyn's YouTube - historian ..
                      hi

                      Here, more fun:
                    7. Svarog
                      Svarog 19 December 2020 18: 53
                      +1
                      laughing good drinks hi I'm surprised they haven't asked Urgant from the first ..
  • The comment was deleted.
  • zenion
    zenion 19 December 2020 22: 44
    0
    In general, people do not delve into history, at least in Germany during Hitler's time. In 1935, a number of laws were passed to protect the state. An interesting law, if only because each section ends with the words - the death penalty.
  • lucul
    lucul 18 December 2020 10: 06
    -3
    "The severity of Russian laws is compensated by the non-binding nature of their implementation"))))
    1. Svarog
      Svarog 18 December 2020 10: 14
      +8
      Quote: lucul
      "The severity of Russian laws is compensated by the non-binding nature of their implementation"))))

      Now they have learned very well how to collect money .. so in this case the laws will be fulfilled .. Laws are not written, only for the elite .. more precisely, they are written under them.
      1. lucul
        lucul 18 December 2020 10: 16
        -8
        Now they have learned very well how to collect money .. so in this case the laws will be fulfilled .. Laws are not written, only for the elite ..

        Laws are not written, only for God's chosen ones - more precisely ...
      2. paul3390
        paul3390 18 December 2020 10: 32
        +7
        Slander - knowingly false defamatory information or dissemination of knowingly false information that discredits the honor and dignity of another person or undermines his reputation ...


        That's interesting - statements such as that you can live on a minimum wage, a minimum pension and other lovely passages of our authorities - fall under the law on libel? For they seem to be deliberately false, and certainly defame the dignity of citizens of the Russian Federation ..
        1. Svarog
          Svarog 18 December 2020 10: 59
          +9
          Quote: paul3390

          That's interesting - statements such as that you can live on a minimum wage, a minimum pension and other lovely passages of our authorities - fall under the law on libel? For they seem to be deliberately false, and certainly defame the dignity of citizens of the Russian Federation.

          About that and the point .. anything can be slandered .. personal opinion about a particular character can become slander .. You will be asked to confirm your words, and if they are based on your own inference, then be so kind as to pay a million ..
        2. bk316
          bk316 18 December 2020 11: 25
          -4
          That's interesting -

          And you wait for the law and find out
        3. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 11: 40
          0
          Quote: paul3390


          That's interesting - statements like that you can live on a minimum wage, a minimum pension and other cute passages of our authorities - fall under the law on defamation?

          No. Proof - so we live.
          The question is not - how? The question is - is it possible?
          1. paul3390
            paul3390 18 December 2020 11: 44
            +3
            Life (lat. Vita) is the basic concept of biology - an active form of the existence of matter, which necessarily contains all the "properties of living things"; a set of physical and chemical processes occurring in the body, allowing metabolism and division.

            With these types of money, it is almost impossible to carry out metabolism and its division. negative Therefore, this is not life .. am
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 14: 31
              0
              Quote: paul3390

              For these types of money, it is almost impossible to carry out metabolism and its division .. negative Therefore, this is not life ..

              How impossible is it? Don't deny the obvious. After all, we live. More precisely, we exist. And I also see off my beautiful ass. wink
              1. Sling cutter
                Sling cutter 18 December 2020 14: 34
                +3
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                And I also see off my beautiful ass

                Eh, Kamrad, you are not alone ... But the wife is against it for some reason. crying
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 15: 07
                  +1
                  Quote: Stroporez
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  And I also see off my beautiful ass

                  Eh, Kamrad, you are not alone ... But the wife is against it for some reason. crying

                  In such cases, I say to mine: - "Sweetheart, believe me, this is just an instinct, I am powerless here. But I am not making any blasphemous plans for the retreating lady." wink
                2. Pilot
                  Pilot 18 December 2020 16: 24
                  +2
                  Quote: Stroporez
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  And I also see off my beautiful ass

                  Eh, Kamrad, you are not alone ... But the wife is against it for some reason. crying

                  So ask your wife a simple question - Dear, and if I am on a diet, then I can't look at the menu? laughing
      3. Tank hard
        Tank hard 18 December 2020 18: 46
        -1
        Quote: Svarog
        Now they have learned very well how to collect money .. so in this case the laws will be fulfilled .. Laws are not written, only for the elite .. more precisely, they are written under them.

        A conviction, even a conditional one, sometimes costs much more. wink
    2. Gvardeetz77
      Gvardeetz77 18 December 2020 10: 23
      +1
      Quote: lucul
      "The severity of Russian laws is compensated by the non-binding nature of their implementation"))))

      Or their selectivity
  • Pilot
    Pilot 18 December 2020 10: 08
    +7
    They muzzled everyone, now it's the turn for the production of gags. Laws that the drawbar, who has the loot and the "crust" - went there.
  • acetophenon
    acetophenon 18 December 2020 10: 10
    -7
    Well, it's worth carefully studying the new article on defamation. Just in case.
    In our country, the case is different ...

    No need to slander our glorious country!
  • Motorist
    Motorist 18 December 2020 10: 14
    0
    I would exclude this from the law:

    "Feeding from the hands of the State Department", "receiving salaries from ..." (many options) and so on

    It is rather a curse word. A kind of uncensored mat, if you like. In general, I support the law (who will ask me? ..).
  • rocket757
    rocket757 18 December 2020 10: 14
    +3
    Wait! Deputy Dmitry Vyatkin submitted a proposal to the State Duma to amend Article 128.1 of the RF Criminal Code. The proposal is not just like that, but in the rank of a bill.

    Many, not stupid people, have been saying for a long time that talkers, without proper filling of the cranium, dig a hole for themselves, along with everyone else !!!
    Opinion will prevail, and we know how to warm it up and shape it, following the "soft" power will come someone more SPECIFIC, HARD !!!
    We can and will do it according to numerous requests, wishes and nationwide support!
    It may happen like this.
    1. bober1982
      bober1982 18 December 2020 10: 38
      -4
      Quote: rocket757
      after the "soft" power will come someone more SPECIFIC, HARD !!!

      There is an opinion that in the event of a possible coming to power of liberal-minded comrades, cadres for the punitive bodies will be drawn from the most liberal environment, from its unrestrained and excited activists.
      For example, you can imagine Ms. Sobchak in a leather jacket, with a pistol in a holster and, in leading roles in these most terrible punitive organs. And, this is not fantasy.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 18 December 2020 10: 46
        +2
        Quote: bober1982
        There is an opinion that in the event of a possible coming to power of liberal-minded comrades, cadres for the punitive bodies will be drawn from the most liberal environment, from its unrestrained and excited activists.
        For example, you can imagine Ms. Sobchak in a leather jacket, with a pistol in a holster and, in leading roles in these most terrible punitive organs. And, this is not fantasy.

        Plans, fantasies, and so on, always wander in the minds of that part of society that imagines itself to be exceptional ... after all, nothing new.
        The reality of the IMPLEMENTATION of such plans raises doubts ... rather rejection. I hope I'm not alone. Painfully from "our" present, who imagined, it smells and is not fresh at all.
        1. bober1982
          bober1982 18 December 2020 11: 16
          -8
          Quote: rocket757
          Painfully from "our" present, who imagined, it smells and is not fresh at all.

          From the fighters with the bloody red-haired, he also whines, like from the stinking felt boots of the janitor Tikhon.
          In the janitor's room there was the smell of rotting manure, spread by Tikhon's new felt boots.
          Old felt boots were in the corner and the air was also not ozonized.
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 18 December 2020 11: 32
            -1
            And who are our first fighters? Well they are.
            Quote: bober1982
            From the fighters with the bloody redhead, too, it smells like

            By the way, if only a bit of that "Mordor" we had, they would have fought for a long time somewhere there ... for example, the snow was removed in "Solnechny Magadan" ...
            1. bober1982
              bober1982 18 December 2020 11: 34
              -6
              Quote: rocket757
              And who are our first fighters? They are

              Not quite clear idea, who do you mean?
              1. rocket757
                rocket757 18 December 2020 12: 07
                0
                Quote: bober1982
                Not quite clear idea, who do you mean?

                Ha, but the "fighters" with the "bloody regime" understood everything perfectly, they have a direct nose!
                At the moment, who positions themselves as fighters for ... all good, against all bad?
                There are, as it were, two of the "brightest" chatty "forces", both, in my opinion, match each other. There is a lot of chatter, there can be no business in the fact that they are only trying for their own sake ... although, some of them have owners ... "ours", foreign ones, it doesn't matter!
                they are all for their own sake, in our country ... I respect and support only those who are for the country, for the people, for a decent and quiet life for all our people.
  • Crowe
    Crowe 18 December 2020 10: 15
    +12
    won't the new law just become a way to settle scores between those who can afford it and those who stepped on their sore spot?

    It may very well be, what is already there ..
    You know, it will be difficult to resist the temptation of someone who calls you "feeding from the hands of the State Department", "receiving a salary from ..." (there are many options) and so on.

    Yes, because of the lack of arguments, the well-known "group of comrades" likes to hang similar labels here on people.
    In general, the law is law, and of course they will pass it. How it will be executed - we'll see.

    We'll see..
  • GRIGORIY76
    GRIGORIY76 18 December 2020 10: 15
    +7
    It had to happen. Now anyone can be pulled up under this law.
  • saigon
    saigon 18 December 2020 10: 17
    +6
    To keep and not to let it go is correct, however, because the trouble is if you pull the thread with diligence and without brains.
    Libel must be suppressed, of course, but what about the deliberate lies of officials?
  • Catfish
    Catfish 18 December 2020 10: 18
    +5
    I was pleased with the novel ... Thank you for even though the Internet is not cut down at all, otherwise the next deputy will again bring in something - and off we go ... to reset it.
  • Rubi0
    Rubi0 18 December 2020 10: 18
    -3
    It is high time to tighten, everything should be regulated by law and based on facts and not on the words of unnamed sources and value judgments ala 'with a high probability ...'. Provide evidence, and the probability will be determined by the court.
    1. Revival
      Revival 19 December 2020 00: 12
      +1
      Will we attract the one who spoke about the su 57 series in 2015?
      The fact that the series was not 5 years old is fixed
    2. Rubi0
      Rubi0 19 December 2020 11: 09
      0
      You are able to distinguish slander from non-fulfillment of official duties, or completely from service your brains are reflected.
  • Andrei from Chelyabinsk
    Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 December 2020 10: 21
    +10
    Libel ... ... committed publicly using information and telecommunication networks, including the Internet, as well as against several persons, including individually indeterminate ones, is punishable by a fine of up to one million rubles

    That is, if I write an article criticizing the government, it will cost me 1 million rubles. Wow, price tag ...
    1. Svarog
      Svarog 18 December 2020 10: 27
      +8
      Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
      Wow, price tag.

      It’s just like that ... that would not even think to criticize .. There is Putin, there is Russia .. no Putin, no Russia ..
    2. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 18 December 2020 10: 36
      -6
      Criticism or slander?) Do you know a big difference)
      1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
        Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 December 2020 10: 38
        +11
        Quote: carstorm 11
        Criticism or slander?) Do you know a big difference)

        Tell me about this difference from the perspective of the Criminal Code. Where is it documented, where is it spelled out?
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 18 December 2020 10: 44
          -4
          Seriously?) Tomorrow, let me write about you here that you eat babies at night. This is slander, I hope) you sue me because I can not prove it. If I write about you that you write your articles badly and in general you are a bad journalist. This is criticism.
          dissemination of deliberately false information discrediting the honor and dignity of another person or undermining his reputation is a very clear definition)
          1. dzvero
            dzvero 18 December 2020 11: 37
            +5
            knowingly false information

            Who knows?
            How do you determine what is false?
            According to your examples, the first can be objectively proved or refuted by searching for physical traces of the imputed action.
            But the second one ... You don't like the article, but the other three liked it and they consider the author a good journalist. What are the criteria, who will define them? Everything is muddy ...
            1. carstorm 11
              carstorm 11 18 December 2020 11: 42
              -1
              To do this, you must understand what false means to begin with) but obviously you did it or the mistake is a completely different song. The intent to do this is different. The blogger who, after the fire in social networks, arranged a false persecution, under what criterion should he fall and should he be punished for this? Those who were later called corpse-eaters, remember? About hundreds of those killed in Kemerovo?
              1. dzvero
                dzvero 18 December 2020 11: 57
                +4
                Deliberately false - when you have reliable information, but you intentionally submit it in the wrong form (the words "you, you" are not for you). But what about the interpretation of disparate facts without concrete documentary confirmation? After all, your own conclusion can already be interpreted as slander.
                1. carstorm 11
                  carstorm 11 18 December 2020 12: 31
                  -1
                  This is called erroneous information. Those who write should check the sources before publishing and not use the OBS) do you think in life first and then do? Calculating the risks? Why shouldn't those who deliver information to people do the same? This is called responsibility for your actions. Inferences are good, but if they are made on the basis of false data and thousands of people believe you how? You not only misled a bunch of people on your own initiative, but you can also wreak havoc, for example. Or something cooler. People are obliged to be responsible for this even in terms of concepts. By law, there are no options. After Kemerovo, I am personally sure of this completely
                  1. dzvero
                    dzvero 18 December 2020 13: 19
                    +5
                    I agree, there should be responsibility. But there must be clear criteria, otherwise a good law in principle will turn into another instrument for settling scores. And not only...
                    1. carstorm 11
                      carstorm 11 18 December 2020 13: 35
                      -3
                      I completely agree here, but we do not yet know how it is used. How and in what edition it will come and whether it will come at all. But for now, my personal opinion is generally correct.
                      1. Revival
                        Revival 19 December 2020 00: 15
                        0
                        We already know how it is used, as a "glass"
                      2. carstorm 11
                        carstorm 11 19 December 2020 04: 18
                        0
                        I'm not a boy already. Three children. And in my life I didn’t get up. But I never had any problems with the law. I think what I say. I live by the law. I do not consider myself in any way prejudiced. And I am not afraid of such laws simply because it would never occur to me to lie to people but to please my desires and beliefs. But after Kemerovo, I clearly realized that one person can do a lot of abominations with his post on social networks. And I really want such people to be punished extremely harshly.
              2. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 13: 46
                +3
                Quote: dzvero
                After all, your own conclusion can already be interpreted as slander.

                Posner was sued for libel. The court took the side of Posner, who said that this was his "own conclusion."
        2. Revival
          Revival 19 December 2020 00: 14
          0
          Yeah, contact the experts conducting the examination of what was said for the court, if they are subordinate to you, then everything will be normal
      2. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 11: 52
        -2
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

        Tell me about this difference from the perspective of the Criminal Code. Where is it documented, where is it spelled out?

        And you tell me about the identity of these concepts from the position of the Criminal Code.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 December 2020 13: 15
          +7
          You don't need identity. The question is that if the criteria for defamation are not clearly spelled out in the Criminal Code, then the interpretation remains at the discretion of the court. With all the consequences
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 13: 48
            -3
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            You don't need identity. The question is that if the criteria for defamation are not clearly spelled out in the Criminal Code, then the interpretation remains at the discretion of the court. With all the consequences

            Slander is a lie. What criteria are needed to determine a lie?
  • lucul
    lucul 18 December 2020 10: 38
    -9
    That is, if I write an article criticizing the government, it will cost me 1 million rubles. Wow, price tag ...

    If the criticism is constructive, then no.
    And if, instead of criticism, enemy propaganda, then it is quite)))) The only salvation is to register as a foreign agent)))
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 December 2020 10: 39
      +7
      Quote: lucul
      If the criticism is constructive, then no.

      Take the Criminal Code, and define constructive and non-constructive criticism
      1. lucul
        lucul 18 December 2020 10: 41
        -8
        Take the Criminal Code, and define constructive and non-constructive criticism

        Well, robbery and robbery somehow distinguish between themselves)))
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 December 2020 13: 17
          +3
          Quote: lucul
          Well, robbery and robbery somehow distinguish between themselves)))

          This is spelled out in the Criminal Code
          Robbery, that is, open theft of someone else's property
          Robbery, that is, an attack in order to steal someone else's property, committed with the use of violence dangerous to life or health, or with the threat of such violence
          What about libel?
      2. Insurgent
        Insurgent 18 December 2020 11: 21
        +1
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Take the Criminal Code, and define constructive and non-constructive criticism

        Value (definition), purely philosophical-rhetorical and vague. You can interpret it as you like, especially from a position of strength (availability of resources).
      3. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 11: 58
        -3
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

        Take the Criminal Code, and define constructive and non-constructive criticism

        In the Criminal Code, this may not be possible, just as there is no fact that the water is wet.
        If you offer a way out while criticizing the situation that has arisen, then this is constructive criticism. If you do not offer a way out, then this is non-constructive criticism, that is, criticism.
        1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
          Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 December 2020 13: 17
          +5
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          In the Criminal Code, this may not be possible, just as there is no fact that the water is wet.

          Accordingly, remains at the discretion of the court. With all the consequences
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 13: 41
            -5
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Accordingly, remains at the discretion of the court. With all the consequences

            By these words you mean a priori negative attitude of the court towards you. But the court is a priori neutral. Of course, I am not idealizing our court, but even so, there is a certain stretch in your words. In fact, you are questioning the need for a kitchen knife, because it can cut a person with it.
        2. Revival
          Revival 19 December 2020 12: 05
          0
          That is, do you think that the proposal of certain methods to radically change the situation will be regarded as constructive criticism?
  • Motorist
    Motorist 18 December 2020 10: 45
    -1
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    That is, if I write an article criticizing the government

    Well, why twist something! The law and the quote you quoted are about slander, not criticism. Unless, of course, the criticism is unfounded.
    1. Revival
      Revival 19 December 2020 12: 06
      0
      Yeah, and often do you have documents in your hands, which describe and confirm the wrong actions of the government?
      And that's all, then the criticism is unfounded ...
      1. Motorist
        Motorist 19 December 2020 12: 17
        0
        Quote: Revival
        then the criticism is unfounded

        Well, it is! Get evidence and criticize (accuse), otherwise - slander. "Everyone knows this very well" - not proof (unless "everyone", of course, was holding a candle). Why are you indignant at this? You personally would most likely not want to get under such "criticism" - would you?
        1. Revival
          Revival 19 December 2020 12: 49
          0
          Where will you get the documents on the state official?
          Well, he lives in a house for a billion and what has he earned?
          Will you get the documents on this issue?
          And, it means to be silent, it means to earn honestly, right?
          1. Motorist
            Motorist 19 December 2020 12: 58
            0
            Quote: Revival
            Well, he lives in a house for a billion and what has he earned?

            Well, write in the article:

            - lives in a house with an assessed value of such and such (an expert's assessment is attached);
            - salary such and such (from open sources, links are attached).

            Everything, just facts! Don't write "stole", you don't know that. Better yet, write in parallel to the press and the prosecutor's office.
            1. Revival
              Revival 19 December 2020 17: 15
              0
              Who will let an expert visit the house for an assessment?
              Where can you get the documents that this is his official property?
              Do you have access? No!
              Means with such a law it turns out to be silent?

              1. Motorist
                Motorist 19 December 2020 17: 42
                0
                Quote: Revival
                Do you have access? No!

                Here is the website of a foreign agent, which collects everything from open sources:

                https://declarator.org/

                There are laws and decrees that oblige officials to declare income and property.

                Who seeks will always find! (c). It is not enough just to be for all good and against all bad - they will not bring the necessary information on a silver platter.
                1. Revival
                  Revival 19 December 2020 18: 44
                  0
                  1) now the data has been removed in the egrn.
                  2) they plan to hide it altogether.
                  How then?
                  1. Motorist
                    Motorist 19 December 2020 18: 56
                    0
                    Quote: Revival
                    How then?

                    Then you won't know anything. laughing

                    Revival, write applications to the prosecutor's office (decree or such-and-such law is not fulfilled), go to elections of all levels, after all! If you closely engage in exposing corrupt officials, you will achieve success! But don't slander, hit with facts.
                    1. Revival
                      Revival 19 December 2020 19: 33
                      +1
                      I am against such laws, but I think that benefits will inevitably follow from such laws, though I will not embroider what truth, let them accept them ...
      2. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 19 December 2020 14: 45
        -1
        Quote: Revival
        Yeah, and often do you have documents in your hands, which describe and confirm the wrong actions of the government?
        And that's all, then the criticism is unfounded ...

        And you have such documents. This is the ratio of your pension to the amount of monthly expenses you need. Proceeding from this ratio, you can safely express your attitude to the work of the government. Whatever assessment you give to the government, this ratio will be the proof.
        1. Revival
          Revival 19 December 2020 17: 23
          +1
          And you will be told that the size of your pension is as individual as your costs.
          Consequently, their ratio does not say anything.
          Plus, I can say that I can say that they work badly, for example, but how, with the approach of this law, "comment" on why they work badly?
          Your recipe doesn't work for sure!
          For example, I say here the ratio of my pension and expenses, they say they work badly, and how can I hide the ratio from the law, if I add, they say, because "they steal and they don't care about people."
          Or maybe they do not work well because of this?
          And how not to get fined in this case will help me calculate the ratio of pension and costs?
          Or what document, I and the majority of the population, can be for this?
          Or does the law simply "shut up" the mouth?
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 19 December 2020 18: 10
            -1
            Quote: Revival
            And you will be told that the amount of your pension is individual,

            So my evaluative position is individual. Like the Kazakhs, I sing what I see.
            1. Revival
              Revival 19 December 2020 18: 46
              0
              I will repeat part of the question:
              if I add, they say, because "they steal and they don't give a damn about people."
              Or maybe they do not work well because of this?
              And how not to get fined in this case will help me calculate the ratio of pension and costs?
              Or what document, I and the majority of the population, can be for this?
              Or does the law simply "shut up" the mouth?
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 19 December 2020 23: 44
                -1
                Quote: Revival

                if I add, they say, because "they steal and they don't give a damn about people."

                And you do not add, because you have no evidence of theft. And you will not be able to answer the questions: who, where, when, under what circumstances? Therefore, it can be described as slander.
                1. Revival
                  Revival 20 December 2020 03: 32
                  0
                  So we came to the truth: "gagging".
                  1. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 20 December 2020 10: 52
                    -1
                    Quote: Revival
                    So we came to the truth: "gagging".

                    Those. a ban on "verbal diarrhea" is what you call it?
  • vvvjak
    vvvjak 18 December 2020 10: 46
    +4
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    That is, if I write an article criticizing the government, it will cost me 1 million rubles. Wow, price tag ...

    In the Republic of Belarus, they go to jail for this. And they did not adopt new laws, they are "adjusted" to fit the current ones.
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 11: 50
    -2
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

    That is, if I write an article criticizing the government, it will cost me 1 million rubles. Wow, price tag ...

    And you, in your criticism, say the EVIDUAL truth and offer a way out. This will be the criticism. Otherwise, and if you, to put it mildly, thickened the colors, then this is no longer criticism, this is criticism.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 December 2020 13: 18
      +5
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      And in your criticism, you say the EVIDUAL truth and offer a way out

      You interpret correctly, but - from the standpoint of logic. And the criminal code is a little different
  • Koval Sergey
    Koval Sergey 18 December 2020 10: 21
    +19
    In general, such a law has long been expected. After all, those in power are already tired of making excuses.
  • Avior
    Avior 18 December 2020 10: 22
    +6
    But I wonder if the law on libel on the Internet will be executed against everyone, who was slandered, or only against some, especially vested with power?
    For example, if any, God forgive me, bulk proves that he did not drink moonshine the day before, will there be a fine for those who tell this too? Or even worse, a class action lawsuit from the American destroyer team that they did not write off the ship after they saw a Russian plane close by, will there be a fine for everyone who wrote this? It’s the Americans, what laws they have, but the budget would be well adjusted smile
    But these are extreme cases. And how many of these will appear in everyday life when communicating between the authorities and residents in some sort of Khatsapetovka?
    How will they divide - against whom the law is applied, against whom not? Nobody thinks that the law will protect everyone?
    Maybe in the law to directly list, in respect of whom the libel will be punished, and in respect of whom - quite the opposite, so to speak?
    Well, so that there is no confusion ...
    1. Roman070280
      Roman070280 18 December 2020 10: 39
      +5
      Or even worse, a class action lawsuit from the team of an American destroyer that they were not written off the ship after they saw a Russian plane close by


      Why is it worse ?? In this particular case, one of the few fair lawsuits will come out ..
    2. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 12: 12
      -2
      Quote: Avior
      But interestingly, the law on libel on the Internet will be enforced against everyone,

      Does the draft law only talk about the Internet?
      Let's agree that applying the law to everyone without exception is a blessing.
      Fortunately, even if Navalny's slanderers and the command of the American destroyer are punished.
      After all, lies in the media, no matter who it comes from, is not just junk information.
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 18 December 2020 10: 22
    +6
    "Dissemination of deliberately false information, discrediting the honor and dignity of another person or undermining his reputation",
    All of Russia can be brought under this law. Humpbacked with Eltsin, they took away freedom, equality, brotherhood, imposing capitalism, and now the people have taken away the last word of freedom. Be patient, men, now you have "Western democracy".
  • Keyser soze
    Keyser soze 18 December 2020 10: 23
    +8
    This is the Middle Ages. I did not care so much about my Prime Minister, Government and authorities that they could slap me a 50 million euro fine and 950 years of hard labor on Pluto. laughing

    It's good that such laws are illegal in our country.
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 18 December 2020 10: 38
      -2
      Well arrived) if you say something about a person and this is a lie, is it better for you? You have to answer for the words. If this is true then you are not risking anything)
      1. Keyser soze
        Keyser soze 18 December 2020 13: 01
        +6
        if you say something about a person and this is a lie, is it better for you? You have to answer for the words. If this is true then you are not risking anything)


        Well, you are naive. And who will trample against the strong of the day? They can sue you, just like that, and you will hang for 10 years until you are acquitted. No, such laws are a cudgel against those who are inconvenient for the authorities, and not for truth and justice. hi
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 18 December 2020 13: 11
          -2
          The European judicial system, for the fact that I will call blue blue, I will be smitten with such a club) a few years ago, a blogger began to shout during a fire that there were hundreds of dead. Than in a state of shock introduced people whose relatives were there. Shouldn't he be punished? Or for the sake of your fears to forgive that they could find fault with their prime minister further? For me, so the first.
          1. Keyser soze
            Keyser soze 18 December 2020 13: 21
            +5
            The European judicial si theme for the fact that I call the blue blue will blow me such a club)


            No, each country has its own judicial system. Here you can call the blue pink any way you want and no one will sue you. The word "pedal" more often refers to chauffeurs who do not light up when they turn laughing

            a few years ago, a blogger started yelling during a fire that there were hundreds of dead.


            And for this there are articles everywhere and can fail without new laws. We are now on trial for the chief of the Pharmacists' Union for panic during an epidemic. She said that there was no medicine and the prosecutor went to her. What prevents the punishment of this # @% (blogger? For this you needed a special law? Nooo ... this is against journalists and oppositionists. The fat senator will be offended that they called a thief and the end ...
            1. carstorm 11
              carstorm 11 18 December 2020 13: 29
              -7
              Of course you do. Prepared responsibility and what would be well affordable.
              1. Keyser soze
                Keyser soze 18 December 2020 13: 36
                +8
                Prepared responsibility and what would be well affordable.


                It dawned on me, through literature and communication, that Russians love justice. This is a great feature of the people. But in the end this same people will suffer from such laws. According to the presumption, the authorities will always adjust the laws to their own needs, not to the people's needs.
                1. carstorm 11
                  carstorm 11 18 December 2020 13: 43
                  -5
                  Maybe yes. Or maybe not. I'm not Wang. Let's see how it goes. Although usually everything becomes clear when a certain group of people begins to resent it, then everything is correct. If screams and screams begin on the echo of Moscow, then the law is what you need)
                  1. Sling cutter
                    Sling cutter 18 December 2020 13: 47
                    +9
                    Quote: carstorm 11
                    If screams and screams begin on the echo of Moscow, then the law is what you need)

                    The ear of the matzo is the property of Gazremov, while the gas is known to be the property of the people.
                    1. carstorm 11
                      carstorm 11 18 December 2020 13: 58
                      -7
                      People) the main thing is their reaction) where Gazprom Media invests its money is their business) it doesn't bother me much)
                2. Revival
                  Revival 19 December 2020 12: 18
                  +1
                  In this law about the people "not a word", I think, it is only for the "senator"
    2. Motorist
      Motorist 18 December 2020 11: 38
      +4
      Quote: Keyser Soze
      It's good that such laws are illegal in our country.

      See what I found on the Internet:

      In Bulgaria, insult and defamation were legally decriminalized back in 1999 (in the sense that the legislation no longer provides for imprisonment for these offenses), while the criminal punishment for the crime remains imposition of a fine of 15000 BGN.


      Source: http://www.rfsv.ru/law/informirovanie/otvetstvennost-za-oskorblenie-i-klevetu-zarubezhnyi-elektoralnyi-opyt
      1. Keyser soze
        Keyser soze 18 December 2020 13: 05
        +2
        In Bulgaria, insult and defamation were legally decriminalized back in 1999


        I am not a lawyer, but they can be sued for slander and lies. Wash in every country and so and so you can defend yourself in court. Practice shows that almost 100% of these processes between journalists and politicians do not concern normal people. Schrafyut for 500 euros and that's it.
        1. Motorist
          Motorist 18 December 2020 13: 44
          -1
          Quote: Keyser Soze
          can be sued for libel and lies

          Well, so I - about the same: evil should be punished! And in order to defend honor and dignity in court, we need a law and punishment for its violation. I don't understand then what you called the Middle Ages in the uppermost commentary ... hi
      2. Revival
        Revival 19 December 2020 12: 20
        +1
        Then look what you found with us. And why do we need a new law?
        open mouth gag?

        Criminal Code of the Russian Federation Article 128.1. Slander
        (introduced by the Federal Law from 28.07.2012 N 141-FZ)

        1. Slander, that is, dissemination of knowingly false information discrediting the honor and dignity of another person or undermining his reputation -
        shall be punished with a fine of up to five hundred thousand rubles, or in the amount of the salary or other income of the convicted person for a period of up to six months, or compulsory work for up to one hundred and sixty hours.
        2. Slander, contained in a public statement, a publicly displayed work or the media -
        is punished with a fine of up to one million rubles or in the amount of the salary or other income of the convicted person for a period of up to one year, or compulsory work for a period of up to two hundred and forty hours.
        3. Slander committed using his official position -
        is punished with a fine of up to two million rubles or in the amount of the salary or other income of the convicted person for a period of up to two years, or compulsory work for a period of up to three hundred and twenty hours.
        4. Slander that a person suffers from a disease that poses a danger to others, as well as slander, combined with the accusation of a person of committing a crime of a sexual nature -
        is punished with a fine of up to three million rubles, or in the amount of the salary or other income of the convicted person for a period of up to three years, or compulsory work for a period of up to four hundred hours.
        5. Slander, combined with the accusation of a person in committing a grave or especially grave crime -
        is punishable by a fine of up to five million rubles, or in the amount of the wage or other income of the convicted person for a period of up to three years, or compulsory labor for up to four hundred and eighty hours.
        1. Motorist
          Motorist 19 December 2020 12: 29
          0
          Quote: Revival
          Then look what you found with us. And why do we need a new law?
          Criminal Code of the Russian Federation Article 128.1. Slander
          (introduced by the Federal Law from 28.07.2012 N 141-FZ)

          Added internet. A member of the forum Taskha wrote about this yesterday - scroll down.

          By the way, about this in the news itself:

          proposal to amend Article 128.1 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation
  • 7,62x54
    7,62x54 18 December 2020 10: 23
    +6
    But about the likes under the comments missed in a hurry. One commented and a hundred people liked it. This is already a group of people rocking the boat.
  • _Sergei_
    _Sergei_ 18 December 2020 10: 24
    +2
    And why did Meehan not please the author? The most harmless and ubiquitous on the site. laughing
    1. Military77
      Military77 18 December 2020 10: 32
      +5
      ubiquitous

      This word with two "s" is spelled
  • Boris55
    Boris55 18 December 2020 10: 25
    -14%
    I don’t know how anyone, but I don’t like "noodles on my ears".

    The most effective way to combat fakes on the Internet is to automatically register everyone who has entered any forum using their passport data (photo, instead of an avatar, full name, instead of a nickname - which are known to the provider when the subscriber connects, and are not a secret for special services). Dirt will be reduced by 90 percent.

    ps
    Fakecomets are already minus, they are afraid to stay out of work laughing
    1. Avior
      Avior 18 December 2020 10: 42
      +10
      Cleverly you came up with.
      But your idea needs to be creatively expanded.
      You still need to take a deposit, 500 thousand rubles
      Well, if they say that he slandered in order to get money right away, and then suddenly it turns out that he has a salary of 15 thousand, what will you take from him? Or worse, he is from Israel, what can you take from him?
      And even more creatively to approach your idea - what if he will be given two years? What then?
      It turns out that it is necessary to take the hostage in advance, who will serve him for the slanderer!
      You go straight to the deputy with these ideas, let them be included in the law right away, so that the laws are not changed later ...
      hi
      1. Boris55
        Boris55 18 December 2020 10: 51
        -7
        Quote: Avior
        Or worse, he is from Israel, what can you take from him?

        1. To mark all foreign guests in the internet as "Foreign agent" (in vain the flags were removed on VO, at least there was some kind of identification).
        2. For spreading false information (not to be confused with personal opinion) - block the IP address at the entrance to Russia.

        Everyone has their own truth. Truth is the truth of many. Whether the truth is different - it happens.

        1. Avior
          Avior 18 December 2020 11: 02
          +9
          1. Here, let's go to the deputy, let him introduce it into the law, it is still possible not only flags, but also pants of different colors to be obliged to wear, somewhere I saw it
          2. Here is the subtlety, a person can work with different Ai Pi, and again, there are static, there are dynamic, how can you tell? It is necessary, it turns out, to do so - to block the whole country via IP so that the entot agent does not penetrate through another IP.
          But, if you figure it out, there are all sorts of VPNs and others, with the help of which you can pretend that you are from another country. It turns out that you need to bring your idea to its logical end - to ban all foreign AI in Russia, and all that is business.
          Here, however, there may be a problem, all Russians will move to foreign Internet the power to discuss is significant, it is necessary to ban all foreign Internet in the country in general.
          Do not waste time, immediately to the deputy, let him take everything into account!
          hi
          1. Boris55
            Boris55 18 December 2020 11: 13
            -3
            Quote: Avior
            you can still not only flags, but pants of different colors

            Any good deed can be brought to the point of absurdity, but at the expense of pants, this has long been introduced. The locksmith has one color of clothing, the electrician has another, the boss has a third.

            Quote: Avior
            It is necessary, it turns out, so to do - block on Ai-pi

            This is a matter of technology and there will be no special problems.
            Dynamic addresses are not without end.
            1. Keyser soze
              Keyser soze 18 December 2020 13: 32
              +4
              This is a matter of technology and there will be no special problems.
              Dynamic addresses are not without end.


              Static IP addresses are 4. Dynamic are practically endless.
              I'm curious, do you like to hammer nails with a microscope?

              If they put on me the inscription "foreign agent" because I am a foreigner (and I don’t cover it, because I left the flag in my avatar so that there was garlic), I will vote so that some people would get the inscription "limited to the 4th grade of primary school."
            2. Avior
              Avior 18 December 2020 13: 42
              +6
              Yes, I remember how the telegrams were blocked.
              Auto, outside working hours are forced to wear pants of different colors? Nothing, I did not think that something like this had already come.
              Well, the proposal to oblige everyone means ....
    2. Pilot
      Pilot 18 December 2020 12: 07
      +4
      Quote: Boris55
      I don’t know how anyone, but I don’t like "noodles on my ears".
      wassat Boris, you are slandering yourself. We urgently need to introduce your case as an amendment to the bill. laughing
    3. Revival
      Revival 19 December 2020 12: 51
      +1
      So there is data.
      But something doesn't attract.
      Until I have a pension reform.
      And it happened, that is, what was announced was not true.
      What about attraction?
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 18 December 2020 10: 25
    +2
    There is no and never will be responsibility for the failures of the "powers that be", but for criticism false lies will be!
  • tatra
    tatra 18 December 2020 10: 27
    +6
    And who are the judges? Those who, for all 30 years after the capture of Russia, slander those from whom they have taken the country - this is both their ideology, and their history of Russia, and the only justification for their capture of Russia. EVERY accusation of crimes against the Bolshevik communists is a blatant, demonstrative slander.
    1. carstorm 11
      carstorm 11 18 December 2020 10: 39
      -8
      So they give you a tool. Go to court and punish everyone who lies)
      1. tatra
        tatra 18 December 2020 10: 47
        +6
        Strange answer. And who is sitting in the courts? Exactly the same as everyone who captured Russia 30 years ago.
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 18 December 2020 11: 16
          -3
          You can't please) well then, don't go to court) it's up to you
      2. paul3390
        paul3390 18 December 2020 11: 33
        +7
        Are you proposing to sue the beloved guarantor for constant slander against the USSR, humiliating the dignity of its citizens?
        1. carstorm 11
          carstorm 11 18 December 2020 11: 35
          -1
          Why not? I'm just one of those people who until they try will not assert something. And although I do not need to know about this it would be curious. Your dignity suffers - why not try to protect it?
        2. Van 16
          Van 16 18 December 2020 12: 39
          +8
          "slander against the USSR"
          For example, Putin's yesterday's statement that working pensioners in the USSR were not paid their pensions. I looked on the Internet, they write - since 1970 they have paid in full for both, provided that the total did not exceed 300 rubles. Hey, Mr. Putin, what was that?
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 20 December 2020 23: 03
            +2
            Quote: Van 16
            Hey, Mr. Putin, what was that?

            Or maybe he meant 1925. laughing
    2. Dym71
      Dym71 18 December 2020 11: 32
      +3
      Quote: tatra
      Who are the judges?

      Enemies of the communists, eu-sno yes
  • shinobi
    shinobi 18 December 2020 10: 28
    -14%
    Hey, weepers! And what did you expect? There is an open information war against Russia. This law should have been adopted 15 years ago. Have your rights been infringed? Go to court and defend your rights with advocates, and do not pour from empty to empty on different resources. Personally, I am somehow violet to the law and the infringement of your freedoms. Don't lie and you will be happy!
    PS: You must answer for the "bazaar"
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 December 2020 10: 36
      +14
      Quote: shinobi
      Stomp to court and with advocates

      Advokatami
      Quote: shinobi
      Don't lie and you will be happy!

      Now it will be possible to punish the truth, the truth, and nothing but the truth.
      Quote: shinobi
      PS: You must answer for the "bazaar"

      Yuri, you have only heard about the "bazaar" from the movies, along the way.
      The "bazaar" is conducted "according to concepts." And "concepts" are the same for everyone. That is, "concepts" by criminal standards are such a law, yes, a thieves' one, but obligatory for execution, even if you are in the law, even if you are completely green.
      But a situation in which any criticism of those in power can now go under the article "slander" - these are completely, completely different laws for us and for those in power. And "by concepts" - this is not a bazaar. This is chaos
      1. Dym71
        Dym71 18 December 2020 11: 44
        +3
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        The "bazaar" is conducted "according to concepts." And "concepts" are the same for everyone.

        It's not like that for a long time, Andrey
        "Grandmas" instead of birches rustle over the country,
        Mercedes and fire girls,
        But the concepts here are overgrown with tryn grass,
        Violates the Shelupon Law. (from)

        From the nineties song.
      2. shinobi
        shinobi 21 December 2020 11: 23
        -1
        You and others like you, turned the net into a cesspool. And with foam at the mouth defend your passion to swim in this hole. True, they do not defend with empty chatter in the kitchen. For those like you, the Internet is its modern version.
    2. Roman070280
      Roman070280 18 December 2020 10: 42
      +10
      There is an open information war against Russia.


      The war is being waged against the Russian people .. by those who captured Russia and settled in the Kremlin ..
  • Horst78
    Horst78 18 December 2020 10: 30
    +4
    Come on. I have long been afraid to comment on something. That is a minus then you will not understand the ban for what. 6 years ago, the moderators at least in a personal comment on what they deleted or banned. And now you just find out by the fact.
    1. awdrgy
      awdrgy 18 December 2020 11: 37
      +3
      I understand that the boycott of the Internet will not work anymore? Are the weaklings steel? -So they are worthy
  • Military77
    Military77 18 December 2020 10: 31
    +5
    Soon it will be like the Strugatskys:
    Rumata waited until the next one was sent into the corridor (this was a famous fishmonger, he was assigned five rods without kissing for unabashed mindset), pushed his way to the table and unceremoniously put his palm on the papers in front of the official.
    1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
      Andrei from Chelyabinsk 18 December 2020 10: 37
      +9
      Yeah. I definitely don't see why the noble don ...
  • tasha
    tasha 18 December 2020 10: 34
    +6
    Just in case, I will clarify that Article 128.1 of the Criminal Code exists and is valid. It's just that it contains a punishment of up to 5 million rubles or compulsory work (according to the situation) and there is no mention of the Internet.

    Once again, for libel - they can be punished now! In addition, any person who believes that he has been slandered has the right to recover moral damage, already under the Civil Code.

    The deputy, on the other hand, offers to plant him for libel. And it singles out the Internet separately.
    He cannot clearly explain the necessity of his bill. I think the voters of Mr. Vyatkin need to think ...
    1. Avior
      Avior 18 December 2020 11: 09
      +8
      How naive you are smile
      Dmitry Fedorovich Vyatkin (born May 21, 1974, in the city of Korkino, Chelyabinsk region) - Russian statesman and politician, deputy of the State Duma of the V, VI and VII convocations. Member of the United Russia faction. .... His father is Fyodor Vyatkin, a lawyer, chairman of the Chelyabinsk regional court in 1988-2013 [2]. In 1988, at 38, he was the youngest of the chairmen of regional and equal courts.

      He is a relative of A.P. Vyatkin. a former FSB general who, while working there, created a gang of active FSB officers who killed 7 people in Tyumen, then convicted by a court decision ...

      hi
      1. tasha
        tasha 18 December 2020 11: 42
        +1
        How naive you are
        Explain, please, what is my naivety?
        1. Avior
          Avior 18 December 2020 13: 45
          +8
          I'm afraid. If I write the truth, they will remove 500 thousand from me, and the New Year is on the nose, but I don't want to lie ...
          1. tasha
            tasha 18 December 2020 13: 55
            +2
            Do not be afraid! Because the residents of the Chelyabinsk region will wonder whether they voted correctly in the elections to the State Duma in 2016, nothing terrible will happen ... Thinking is generally useful.
            1. Avior
              Avior 18 December 2020 14: 00
              +7
              Nothing terrible will happen