Military Review

"It is necessary to seize at least the entire Russian territory up to the Urals exclusively."

184
"It is necessary to seize at least the entire Russian territory up to the Urals exclusively."
Wehrmacht troops are crossing the border of the USSR.


Reich's turn of aggression to the East


The blitzkrieg in the West, the almost lightning defeat of Holland, Belgium and France, the heavy defeat of England, the occupation of a significant part of France and the emergence of the Vichy allied regime in the rest of the country - seriously changed the balance of power in Europe and the world.

The Third Reich achieved a brilliant victory, defeated the main competitors in Europe (France and England) without complete mobilization and exhaustion of the country. In fact, for the armed forces and the country, it was an easy walk, compared to the hardships and enormous blood of the First World War.

Germany strengthened significantly: 9 states were captured with their military-economic potential, labor resources, available military reserves. Germany has put under its control over 850 thousand square meters. km and more than 100 million people. The Reich also made great strides in military-technical development.

The fairly easy victories won turned the head of the German military-political leadership. It was euphoria. The people were pleased with the fruits of the victory. The army was jubilant.

Even those generals who previously wanted to overthrow Hitler, fearing a military and political catastrophe in a clash with France and England, were forced to admit the success of the Fuhrer. They began to regard the German war machine as invincible.

World hegemony no longer seemed like a pipe dream. Hitler, obviously, was confident that England would not interfere in his war with the Russians, that there would be no second front in Europe, but there would be a blitzkrieg in the East, victory before winter. Then it will be possible to agree with England on a new division of spheres of influence and colonies in the world.

In Berlin, they looked at the British with respect and considered them their teachers. England gave the world the theory of racism, social Darwinism, was the first to create concentration camps, used the methods of terror and genocide to suppress any resistance of "subhumans". The British colonial empire was an example for the Nazis in creating their "Millennium Reich".

Therefore, the Soviet Union was considered the main enemy in achieving world domination in Berlin. The United States, after the victory over Russia, the alliance with England, could simply be isolated. To confront Japan with America, for example. Hitler believed that the main goals of the Reich in the East: it was necessary to expand the "living space" for the German nation, exterminate the Slavs, push even further to the east, turn the remnants into slaves of German colonist masters.

This goal has long been nurtured and attracted close attention of the leaders of the Reich. Thus, in November 1938, the German industrialist A. Rechberg wrote in a memorandum to the head of the Reich Chancellery:

“The object of expansion for Germany appears to be the space of Russia, which ... possesses innumerable riches in the field of agriculture and untapped raw materials. If we want the expansion into this space to ensure Germany's transformation into an empire with a sufficient agrarian and raw material base for its needs, then it is necessary to seize at least the entire Russian territory up to the Urals exclusively, where huge ore resources lie. "



Major German industrialist Arnold Rechberg. Since 1917, he was involved in organizing the "crusade" of Europe against Russia and the USSR. He played a large role in supporting Hitler's plans in the East.

The main task is "a clash with Bolshevism"


The former deputy chief of staff of the operational leadership of the Wehrmacht, General Warlimont, even before the attack on France, in the spring of 1940, received an order from Hitler to draw up a plan of operations in the East. The same order was sent to the chief of staff of the operational leadership of the Wehrmacht, General Jodl. On June 2, 1940, at the headquarters of Army Group A, the Fuehrer announced that by the French campaign and the agreement with England he had received a free hand to

"A big and real challenge: a clash with Bolshevism."

Large German capital played an important role in developing a plan of aggression against the USSR. Berlin has already tuned in to a future compromise with England on the basis of the division of the world. Led by prominent representatives of the economy, bureaucracy and the army, the Society for European Economic Planning and Economics presented at the end of May 1940 a conclusion in which the outline of the Program for the Development of the Continental European Economy in a Vast Territory under German Government was made. The ultimate goal after the war was the exploitation of the peoples of the continent from Gibraltar to the Urals and from the North Cape to the island of Cyprus, with the colonial sphere in Africa and Siberia. In general, it was a program of a united Europe from Gibraltar to the Urals under the control of the German masters.

The preparation of a war against Russia is becoming the defining, main direction of the measures being taken in the field of foreign and domestic policy, economics and military affairs. They refused to invade England, although they could have put London in check and checkmate with almost one blow: it was enough to occupy Suez, Gibraltar and go through the territory of the Middle East to Persia and further to India. After that London would be forced to ask for peace.

All efforts were focused on further building up and improving the ground forces for the march to the East. The leadership of the Wehrmacht now supported Hitler's plans. After the victory over France, the military opposition virtually disappeared (before the blitzkrieg failed). The generals agreed with the idea of ​​a war to destroy the "Russian barbarians" and for living space in the East.

On June 29, 1940, at the direction of the Commander-in-Chief of the Wehrmacht Ground Forces, Brauchitsch, the creation of a group of troops for the war with Russia began. German troops in Poland on the border with the USSR and Lithuania were transferred to the command of the 18th Army, which had previously participated in the French campaign.

Simultaneously with the headquarters of Guderian's group, a plan for the transfer of armored formations to the east was developed in the shortest possible time. On July 4, 1940, the Chief of the General Staff of the Ground Forces, Halder, began to deal with the planning of the war with the Russians and practical measures for the preparation of the transfer of divisions to the Soviet borders. Options for the construction of railways to the East were being worked out. Transfer began tanks.

On July 31, 1940, at a military meeting, Hitler formulated the essence of German strategy at this stage of the war. In his opinion, Russia was the main obstacle to world domination. The Fuhrer also noted that the main hope of England is Russia and America. If hope for Russia collapses, then America will also fall away from England, since the defeat of the Russians will lead to an incredible strengthening of Japan in the Far East. If Russia is defeated, then England will lose her last hope. Therefore, Russia is subject to liquidation.

Hitler set the date for the start of the Russian campaign - the spring of 1941. The stake was on blitzkrieg. The operation mattered only in the event of the rapid defeat of the entire Russian state. Capturing only part of the territory is insufficient. The main task of the war:

"Destruction of the vital force of Russia."

That is, a war to destroy Russia and the Russians.


Hitler (right) with Field Marshal Keitel (center) examining a map at the headquarters of Army Group North in Latvia. July 21, 1941

Preparing a war of destruction


Preparing for aggression against the USSR, Hitlerite Germany relied on a sharply increased military-economic potential. Almost all of Western Europe was conquered and somehow worked for the Reich, like Sweden, Switzerland and Spain. Further militarization of the economy was carried out in Germany. The economic and human resources of the occupied countries were put at the service of the Reich.

During the 1940 campaigns, the Germans captured a huge amount of military equipment, weapons, equipment and materials. The Nazis took almost all the weapons from 6 Norwegian, 12 British, 18 Dutch, 22 Belgian and 92 French divisions.

For example, in France, 3 thousand aircraft and about 5 thousand tanks were captured. At the expense of French and other captured vehicles, the Wehrmacht command mechanized more than 90 divisions. Also in occupied France, a huge amount of equipment, raw materials, vehicles were seized and removed. During the two years of occupation, 5 thousand steam locomotives and 250 thousand cars were stolen. In 1941, the Germans from the occupied part of France exported 4,9 million tons of ferrous metals (73% of the annual production).

In Germany itself, in 1940, the growth of military production in comparison with 1939 was about 54%.

Major measures were taken to develop the armed forces of the Reich. Particular attention was paid to the ground forces. In August 1940, it was decided to increase the number of combat-ready divisions to 180, and by the beginning of the war with Russia, deploy about 250 full-blooded divisions (including the reserve army and SS troops). The mechanization of troops and the quantity and quality of mobile units were increasing.

On September 5, 1940, the task was set to bring the number of mobile troops to 12 motorized divisions (not counting the SS troops) and 24 tank divisions. The organizational and staff structure of mobile units was rebuilt. The changes were aimed at increasing the striking power and mobility of tank and motorized divisions. The priority task was the release of new tanks, aircraft and anti-tank guns.

Berlin put together a bloc of states that were supposed to support the aggression against Russia. Allied troops did not take part in the war with Poland and France. Italy opposed France on its own initiative, and when the French were already effectively defeated. The attack on the USSR was conceived as a coalition war, with the widespread involvement of allies. It was another "crusade" of Europe against Russia. War of civilizations.

According to the plan of the German leadership, the main allies in the anti-Comintern pact (Italy and Japan) should have been tied up in other theaters. Italy's efforts were directed against England in the Mediterranean and Africa. But this idea failed even before the start of the war with Russia.

Italy failed the war with Greece and England. Germany had to actively climb into the Mediterranean, to support the losing ally. Japan was supposed to fetter US forces in the Pacific and threaten the Russians in the Far East by diverting part of the Red Army.

On September 27, 1940, the Tripartite Pact was signed between Germany, Italy and Japan. Its members planned to achieve world domination. Germany and Italy were responsible for creating a "new order" in Europe, Japan in "Great East Asia."

The Triple Pact became the basis of the anti-Soviet coalition. On November 20, 23 and 24, 1940, Hungary, Romania and Slovakia (a puppet state created after the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia) joined the agreement. Finland, Bulgaria, Turkey and Yugoslavia were drawn into this union with all their might.

The Finnish leadership did not enter into this pact, but developed bilateral military-economic cooperation directed against Russia. Finland's resources were placed at the service of Germany. German intelligence was quietly operating in Finland. Hitler promised to give Finland East Karelia and the Leningrad Region. In the fall of 1940, an agreement was concluded between the Reich and Finland on the transit of German troops and cargo for transfer to Norway. But these troops began to go to the border of the USSR. Finnish volunteers began to join the SS troops. The Finnish army was preparing to attack Russia along with the Wehrmacht.

Bulgaria, assuring Moscow of good feelings, became a member of the Tripartite Pact on March 1, 1941. German troops entered the territory of Bulgaria. Its communications and raw material potential was used by the Reich in aggression against Greece, Yugoslavia, and then the USSR.

So, the Third Reich was able to deploy its armed forces along the entire length of the western strategic direction of the USSR, from the Arctic Ocean to the Black Sea.

There was also a high probability that Turkey would support the German attack and act in the Caucasus, which also diverted part of the Red Army forces in the southwest.


Hitler in Vienna. Hungary joins the Triple Pact. November 20, 1940

Hitler's strategic mistake


Thus, the Third Reich, with the help of the subject countries of Europe, significantly increased its military-economic potential. Germany has expanded its material and resource base. However, the military-economic preparation for the war with the USSR had critical shortcomings.

The fact is that it was designed only for lightning war. The military-political leadership did a great job of mobilizing the resources of Germany itself and the occupied, dependent territories for the war, but only within the framework of the blitzkrieg. That is, there were no reserves in Germany in case of Plan B - a possible prolonged war of attrition.

The stake was placed precisely on the first knockout blow, the collapse of the Soviet colossus "on feet of clay." This was the second strategic miscalculation of Hitler, his entourage and intelligence (the first was the very decision to fight the Russians, although it was possible to negotiate with Moscow). Berlin grossly underestimated Russia, considering its potential at the level of the late 1920s - early 1930s.

Hitler did not yet know that Stalin had created a triune monolith - the party, the army and the people. A society of knowledge, service and creation, ready for any sacrifice in the name of great goals. The Russians of 1941 were very different than in 1914.

In the First World War, these were mainly peasants with a small splash of intelligentsia and military personnel. During the Second World War - well-educated workers, collective farmers, intelligentsia, military men with vast experience of war. Russian soldiers have retained their best qualities - stamina, tenacity and courage. And they added new ones - technical education and faith in the best country and society in the world. They knew what they were going to die for.

This predetermined the subsequent mistakes. The economic preparation for the war was based on the belief in the blitzkrieg, the rapid fall and collapse of Soviet Russia into parts, national bantustans. Hopes for active action by the "fifth column" (which Stalin crushed before the war), the uprising of the military, the uprising of collective farmers-peasants and national separatists.

That is, before the eyes of the Nazis there was Russia of the 1914-1917 model, somewhat changed by the communist ideology, but still the same. Russia had to quickly fall under external and internal blows.

Hence all the blunders of the military-economic preparation of the Reich for the war with Russia. Germany was not totally mobilized, society and the country at the beginning of the war with the USSR lived in general in a peacetime regime. They did not expand military production to the maximum, as they could, did not transfer the economy to a military track (this had to be done during the war, when the blitzkrieg failed).

It was believed that the accumulated stocks of weapons, ammunition and fuel would be enough for the entire campaign (one year). They did not prepare for war in winter conditions, they did not stock up on winter uniforms, etc.

All this (after the failure of the blitzkrieg) had dire consequences for the Reich and the Wehrmacht.

To be continued ...
Author:
Photos used:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/, http://waralbum.ru/
184 comments
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  1. Crowe
    Crowe 18 December 2020 03: 54
    +10
    Hitler's strategic mistake

    The very decision to attack the USSR, so he broke off his teeth together almost with all his allied Europe.
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 18 December 2020 04: 44
      +13
      Stalin created a triune monolith - the party, the army and the people. Society of knowledge, service and creation,
      Therefore, we stood against all of Europe, and put things in order in Asia!
      1. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 18 December 2020 04: 54
        +16
        I will give two paragraphs from the article: 1)
        Preparing for aggression against the USSR, Hitlerite Germany relied on a sharply increased military-economic potential. Almost all of Western Europe was conquered and somehow worked for the Reich, like Sweden, Switzerland and Spain. Further militarization of the economy was carried out in Germany. The economic and human resources of the occupied countries were put at the service of the Reich.

        During the 1940 campaigns, the Germans seized vast quantities of military equipment, weapons, equipment and materials. The Nazis took almost all the weapons of 6 Norwegian, 12 British, 18 Dutch, 22 Belgian and 92 French divisions.

        And here is the second one:
        Hence all the blunders of the military-economic preparation of the Reich for the war with Russia. Germany was not totally mobilized, society and the country at the beginning of the war with the USSR lived in general in a peacetime regime. Military production was not expanded to the maximum, as they could, the economy was not transferred to a military track

        And now the question is, what was the article about?
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 05: 18
          +3
          Quote: Stroporez
          And now the question is, what was the article about?

          )))
          Comrade Samsonov is trying to somehow nourish his altistory about the Russian-Soviet empire with separate facts from reality. Naturally, it turns out crooked. On the one hand, the Reich's underestimation of the USSR is a commonplace and it is somehow not with the hand to refute it. On the other hand, to admit that Barbarossa was planned as a short-term auxiliary campaign in a secondary direction is offensive to the pride of the Great Russians. The result is complete schizophrenia.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 18 December 2020 07: 50
            +9
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            On the other hand, to admit that Barbarossa was planned as a short-term auxiliary campaign in a secondary direction is offensive to the pride of the Great Russians.

            Barbarossa was not an auxiliary and secondary operation in no case - it is worth at least to look at the resources attracted by Germany against France, England in 1939 and against the USSR in 1941: this is heaven and earth (almost TWO times growth!)
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            offensive to the pride of the Great Russians.

            The point, I think, is different: it’s just difficult for the author to explain, as given that "the Germans lived, in general, in peacetime"(according to the author) and with the" monolith "opposing them, the tragedy of 1941 broke out, with millions of prisoners and the loss of territories, many times larger than the area of ​​the same France.
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 10: 35
              0
              Quote: Olgovich
              that "the Germans, in general, lived in peacetime" (according to the author) and with the "monolith" opposing them, the tragedy of 1941 broke out, with millions of prisoners and the loss of territories many times larger than the area of ​​France.

              The reason for this: 1. Errors in strategic planning of the General Staff of the Red Army (from which no one is insured). 2. Poor tactical training of the junior and middle command personnel of the Red Army. 3. Betrayal of General Pavlov. 4. Delay in rearmament of the army (tanks, aircraft, radio communication)
              1. Vladimir Volk
                Vladimir Volk 18 December 2020 13: 29
                -1
                Pavlov did not betray. This is an omission.
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 14: 05
                  +4
                  Quote: Vladimir Volk
                  Pavlov did not betray. This is an omission.

                  I prove his betrayal by his self-removal from command and, in general, by the death of the entire military district, not for the smell of tobacco.
                  How do you prove his "omissions"?
                  1. Vladimir Volk
                    Vladimir Volk 18 December 2020 15: 28
                    -7
                    Such a domesticated animal with horns and a beard was an omission. lol
                    And there was no self-elimination. And he gave the order to bring to the district in BG in time. You see, the whole thing is in the original strategy, Defense is not needed, we will only attack. BG is announced, BUT troops are moving forward for the offensive, not for defense. THAT IS THE ESSENCE of the reason. defeat of the district (then, by the way, already the Belorussian Front)
                    And it was Dzhugashvili, not Pavlov, who defined this vicious strategy.
                    1. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 15: 44
                      +2
                      Quote: Vladimir Volk
                      lol
                      And there was no self-elimination, and he gave the order to bring them to the BG on time.

                      Did you control its execution?
                      Quote: Vladimir Volk
                      Defense is not needed, we will only attack. BG is announced, BUT troops are moving forward for the offensive, not for defense. THAT IS THE ESSENCE of the reasons for the defeat of the district (then, by the way, already

                      This is where you read such nonsense?
                      According to the "Doctrine ..." we had to "... wear down the advancing enemy in border battles, and then go on the offensive."
                      We could not "go on the offensive" without the attack of the enemy, otherwise we pass into the status of the aggressor. Therefore, defense first.
                      Why in the North-West the troops left the "winter quarters" and scattered over the summer camps, equipped DEFENSIVE positions, as in the South-West. And only, for some reason, Pavlov's "prepared (and prepared?) For offensive battles while in" winter quarters. "
                      Quote: Vladimir Volk

                      And it was Dzhugashvili, not Pavlov, who defined this vicious strategy.

                      This "vicious strategy" was determined by the General Staff, not by Dzhugashvili.
              2. strannik1985
                strannik1985 18 December 2020 13: 37
                -6
                1. Errors of strategic planning of the General Staff

                The largest is the formation of 21 mechanized corps from February 1941.
                3. Betrayal of General Pavlov

                If you look for traitors, then you need to start with Stalin, he announces mobilization.
                Delay with rearmament

                Let's put it on the contrary with tanks, hurry up.
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 14: 24
                  +2
                  Quote: strannik1985
                  The largest is the formation of 21 mechanized corps from February 1941.

                  I agree that it was a mistake, but at that time. Whose? - General Staff of the Red Army.
                  Quote: strannik1985

                  If you look for traitors, then you need to start with Stalin, he announces mobilization.

                  I disagree. The announcement of mobilization in a country like the USSR in those political conditions meant a declaration of war. The USSR immediately becomes an aggressor. Believe me, Goebbels would not give a blunder here.
                  And then, in the person of the international community, Germany turns from an aggressor into a country that has dealt a preventive strike against the aggressor in order to protect it.
                  Stalin acted smarter, he (General Staff) under the guise of large-scale exercises, hundreds of thousands of reservists were drafted into the army (I'm afraid to be mistaken in the figure).
                  Quote: strannik1985

                  Let's put it on the contrary with tanks, hurry up.

                  In a hurry to equip the army with T-34 and KV-1 tanks?
                  1. strannik1985
                    strannik1985 18 December 2020 15: 26
                    -3
                    General Staff of the Red Army

                    Certainly.
                    The announcement of mobilization in a country like the USSR in those political conditions meant a declaration of war

                    It is not necessary, you can start under the guise of a BUS.
                    Stalin acted smarter, he (General Staff) under the guise of large-scale exercises, hundreds of thousands of reservists were drafted into the army (I'm afraid to be mistaken in the figure).

                    No, unfortunately, in 1941, the usual large training sessions were held, similarly to 1938, mobilization under the guise of a BUS was carried out in 1939, pay attention to the number of horses, cars and tractors involved.
                    In a hurry to equip the army with T-34 and KV-1 tanks?

                    Well, yes, without experimental military operation, the new tanks could not reveal their potential, especially the KV.
                    1. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 15: 57
                      0
                      Quote: strannik1985

                      It is not necessary, you can start under the guise of a BUS.

                      Required. Because the war in Europe was already on.
                      Do you know that one of the reasons for the removal of Blucher from the command of the Far Eastern Military District was precisely his announced mobilization in the Far East?
                      Quote: strannik1985

                      Well, yes, without experimental military operation, the new tanks could not reveal their potential, especially the KV.

                      That is, if they were not in the western districts, the situation at the beginning of the war would have been better?
                      1. strannik1985
                        strannik1985 19 December 2020 06: 30
                        0
                        Required

                        Not at all, you can simply not demobilize those called up to the SPF until further notice, for example, on 09.05.1940/161/83 in the Red Army 12000 SD, of which XNUMX are XNUMX people each.
                        Blucher was tried for conscription of 12 ages of military service instead of the permitted 6.
                        Those. if they weren't in the western districts

                        No, if there were fewer of them, but the T-34 would go through a full cycle, the situation with the BTV would be better. HF experimental military operation most likely would not have passed.
                  2. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 18 December 2020 15: 57
                    +3
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    Stalin acted smarter, he (General Staff) under the guise of large-scale exercises, hundreds of thousands of reservists were drafted into the army (I'm afraid to be mistaken in the figure).

                    Of these, no more than half of them went to complete the connections. The rest are for regular retraining.
                    And most importantly, the conscription of privates and non-commissioned officers without mobilizing equipment did not really give anything in terms of increasing the combat readiness of the units. For the thrust and rear services remained according to the norms of peacetime: the rear provides the needs for basing in the PPD, for the artillerymen of the thrust - for one division from the regiment. That is, we get a one-time division: it managed to take up the defensive position, reached the artillery, fired off the transportable / wearable ammo - and stayed there.
                    1. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 16: 13
                      0
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      enhancing the combat readiness of units. For the thrust and rear services remained according to the norms of peacetime: the rear provides the needs for basing in the PPD, for the artillerymen of the thrust - for one division from the regiment. That is, we get a one-time division: it managed to take up the defensive position, reached the artillery, fired off the transportable / wearable ammo - and stayed there.

                      Well, these are already claims to the General Staff and the VO headquarters.
                      We always have a great idea, when it is introduced, thanks to the bureaucratic apparatus, it takes such ugly forms that you cannot even recognize the idea in them.
                      1. Alexey RA
                        Alexey RA 18 December 2020 18: 59
                        +1
                        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                        Well, these are already claims to the General Staff and the VO headquarters.
                        We always have a great idea, when it is introduced, thanks to the bureaucratic apparatus, it takes such ugly forms that you cannot even recognize the idea in them.

                        All claims here are about the economy of the USSR. Which did not pull a cadre army without the massive mobilization of equipment from the field.
                        The General Staff would be glad, together with the people, to give the divisions traction and transport - but then the country will fail the spring agricultural work. And so it was already necessary in the order for fees to indicate that the call for reservists must be coordinated with the leadership of the collective farms and directors of factories.
                        Just as an example - this is what was required of the national economy in 1939 for the BUS against Poland:
                        The troops also received 634 horses, 117 vehicles and 300 tractors.
                        © Meltyuhov
                      2. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 20: 32
                        0
                        Quote: Alexey RA

                        All claims here are about the economy of the USSR. Which did not pull a cadre army without the massive mobilization of equipment from the field.

                        Yes, there is no dispute. Although the collective farms (state farms) kept not only the number of horses necessary for the farm, but also horses, which the farm must supply to the army according to the order in the event of mobilization. So, with horses it was easier, but with vehicles and tractors it was a blockage. But in this the Sov. the government cannot be reproached in any way. And so, during such a period, so much has been done that it is incomprehensible to the mind.
                      3. Kwas
                        Kwas 20 December 2020 18: 09
                        0
                        There were more tractors than in all of Europe (see my comment above, information from TSB). It's another matter, they worked in the n / x and were not mobilized on time.
                    2. Kwas
                      Kwas 20 December 2020 18: 04
                      0
                      As for tractors - by 1937, the USSR took 1st place in the world in the production of tracked tractors, 2nd place (after the USA) in their total number. More than all of Europe taken together. Tentatively, slightly less than 1 million tractors were produced for the war.
                  3. The comment was deleted.
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                  5. hjvtp1966
                    hjvtp1966 19 December 2020 11: 12
                    0
                    Well, these are already claims to the General Staff and the VO headquarters.
                    We always have a great idea, when it is introduced, thanks to the bureaucratic apparatus, it takes such ugly forms that you cannot even recognize the idea in them.

                    What a pop - such is the coming!
            2. Eug
              Eug 18 December 2020 15: 04
              +7
              In any case, the sharp increase in the number of spacecraft led to tactical problems for commanders in the new position. Even a battalion commander who is excellent in every sense, who has become a regiment commander, takes time to comprehend not even the nuances, but the basics of a new position, not to mention higher-ranking commanders. Unfortunately, this time did not exist, the selection and "growing up" were already taking place to the accompaniment of German artillery and the clanking of the tracks of German tanks ... the growth of the army previously had no economic opportunity.
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 18 December 2020 18: 32
                +2
                Quote: Eug
                Even a battalion commander who is excellent in every sense, who has become a regiment commander, takes time to comprehend not even the nuances, but the basics of a new position, not to mention higher-ranking commanders.

                And this is in a single case, and when there are more than half of such commanders in the new state, this cannot be fixed in a couple of months. And it was simply vital to rebuild and enlarge the army. generally .
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 19 December 2020 12: 10
                  0
                  Quote: mat-vey
                  And this is in a single case, and when there are more than half of such commanders in the new state, this cannot be corrected in a couple of months.

                  He-he-he ... for 1941, if there are "more than half" of the "wild-growing" commanders in a unit or formation, that's already great.
                  The biggest ambush is that the reserve of commanders, created in the 30s on the basis of the minimum cadre of the Red Army (25 cadre rifle divisions and state rifle divisions in 1935), could not ensure the deployment of the army in the new states. At the headquarters of one of the tank divisions in the spring of 1941, the operative department consisted of one person.
                  However, everyone had these problems. Most of all, the Yankees were "lucky", who deployed 51 divisions in two years on the basis of three calculated pre-war divisions (moreover, half of these calculated divisions were outside the Metropolis - so, the Hawaiian 24th Infantry Division "gave life" to only one 25th Infantry Division in the same Hawaii) ... smile
                  1. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 19 December 2020 14: 33
                    0
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    However, everyone had these problems.

                    And what, shouldn't have started?
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 18 December 2020 11: 48
          +4
          Quote: Olgovich
          Barbarossa was not an auxiliary and secondary operation in any case - you should at least look at the resources attracted by Germany against France, England in 1939 and against the USSR in 1941: this is heaven and earth (an increase of almost TWO times!)

          You see, what's the matter ... the defeat of the USSR was not an end in itself for the Reich.
          In general, the entire campaign in Russia was designed to put pressure on Britain in order to force it to peace. For some reason, Adolf decided that Russia is the last hope of Britain on the continent - and if it is defeated, then Britain will more willingly go to peace. This opinion was warmly supported by the generals and admirals of the Reich, for whom the landing on the Island, even in 1940, seemed like a meat grinder, which they wanted to avoid at any cost. Therefore, with both hands, they grabbed onto the alternative in the form of a traditional war on a ground theater of operations. Moreover, the victory over the USSR made it possible to finally partially demobilize the army, directing the freed up hands into agriculture (for there is already a slight famine in the Reich) and industry (at the same time shipbuilding - in case Britain continues to persist in its delusions). However, for the time "after the victory over the USSR" a lot of things were planned - from Plan Z to rearmament of the Panzerwaffe with a single ST ("Panther") and the introduction of TT ("Tiger").
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 18 December 2020 13: 07
            +2
            Quote: Alexey RA
            You see, what's the matter ... the defeat of the USSR was not an end in itself for the Reich.

            There were two goals: England and the USSR.

            It didn't work out with the first one, we went to the second, leaving the first for later.

            There would be no documents about the fact that in case of victory over England there would be no attack on the USSR. no.
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 19 December 2020 14: 54
              -1
              Quote: Olgovich
              There were two goals: England and the USSR.

              Goal # 2, in your version, the USSR was captured with the aim of 1. obtaining the notorious "living space" and 2. destroying Jewish Bolshevism.
              And what is the purpose of the "capture" of England? Your version.
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 19 December 2020 15: 31
                0
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                what is the purpose of the "capture" of England? Your version.

                Competitor.

                There is no it-all Europe, part of Africa, Asia in the management and subordination of Germany. Forever and ever.
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 19 December 2020 15: 54
                  -1
                  Quote: Olgovich

                  There is no it-all Europe, part of Africa, Asia in the management and subordination of Germany. Forever and ever.

                  England is there, but all of Europe, except for friendly Spain, the same part of France (Vichy) of "neutral" Switzerland and Sweden, all of it. So, in the realities of the end of 40, there could be no talk of any competitor in Europe. Therefore, the goal number 1 is the USSR! This is what gave Germany food security, energy independence and a myriad of all kinds of raw materials for German industry.
                  With his bombing, he was only trying to force the Englishwoman to peace. And if an Englishwoman asked for it, without "annexations and indemnities," Germany would readily accept it.
                  Why would Hitler have an island with nothing but sheep?
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 19 December 2020 18: 43
                    0
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk

                    England is there, but all of Europe, except for friendly Spain, the same part of France (Vichy) of "neutral" Switzerland and Sweden, all of it

                    And ALL the sea is England. As well as huge finances. And this is a blockade, as a result, an industry without raw materials and HUNGER, there is no sales market, the absence of colonies: there is an object lesson from WWI!
                    It was all already. from death by starvation of 800 Germans!!
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    This is what gave Germany food security, energy independence and a myriad of all kinds of raw materials.

                    With the destruction of the blockade, he received all this without a war with the USSR.
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    With his bombing, he was only trying to force the Englishwoman to peace. AND if the Englishwoman asked for it, without "annexations and indemnities", then Germany readily would accept.


                    The British EMPIRE could not leave the 1940 state, which meant her death as an Empire. And the treaties with Hitler were worth NOTHING, and Britannia knew this well. She's finished anyway. Therefore, she announced the fight to win.

                    Hitler had two goals.
                  2. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 20 December 2020 00: 07
                    -1
                    Quote: Olgovich

                    And ALL sea-England. As well as huge finances. And this is a blockade

                    Do not put the cart in front of the horse. What kind of blockade can we talk about if all of Europe is under German control? And do not forget - the European part of the USSR (according to plans) Therefore, they were not afraid of any blockade. Everything that Germany needed, she received on the mainland and no "Her Majesty's fleet" could interfere.
                    An Englishwoman was just in the blockade thanks to the "wolf pack" Doenitz.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    As well as huge finances.

                    "I'll buy everything," said gold.
                    I'll take everything, said damask "(M.Yu. Lermontov)
                    Germany did not buy, she took.
                    Huge finances did not help the Englishwoman very much - she used Lend-Lease.
                    Quote: Olgovich

                    With the destruction of the blockade, he received all this without a war with the USSR.

                    And "living space"? You all the time bypass this question. But he is key.
                    Quote: Olgovich
                    She's finished anyway. Therefore, she announced the fight to win.

                    Right! That is why the Englishwoman refused peace with Germany. And Germany had no goal of destroying England.
                    It was for this that Hess flew to England.
                    There was only one goal - the USSR!
                  3. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 20 December 2020 07: 30
                    0
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    ... What kind of blockade can we talk about if all of Europe is under German control?

                    About the one who was in the REALITY of WWII
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    An Englishwoman was just in the blockade thanks to the "wolf pack" Doenitz.

                    And this blockade, in reality, failed
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    "I'll buy everything," said gold.
                    I'll take everything, said damask "(M.Yu. Lermontov)
                    Germany did not buy, she took.
                    Huge finances did not help the Englishwoman very much - she used Lend-Lease.

                    I didn't even take Switzerland, I was afraid.
                    2.Only a fool will spend where they give almost nothing
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    And "living space"? You all the time bypass this question. But he is key.

                    I say all the time that there were TWO goals.
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    And Germany had no goal of destroying England.

                    And who did she destroy in the West? Nobody. Capture, subjugate and use
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    There was only one goal - the USSR!

                    Two.
                    Therefore, I overstrained, in the end
                  4. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 20 December 2020 10: 47
                    -1
                    [quote = Olgovich
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    ... What kind of blockade can we talk about if all of Europe is under German control?
                    About the one that was in the REALITY of WWII [/ quote]
                    And here is the reality for you - Chamberlain announced on September 6, 1939. However, Germany was already prepared for such a development. On May 10, 1939, the OKW directive was issued, which prescribed:

                    Since, in the event of a war with England, Germany will lose its Atlantic communications ... first of all, prepare the following measures:
                    a) increased exchange of goods with Italy;
                    b) increased imports from the southeastern space;
                    c) economic support of individual supplies from Scandinavia, as well as the transfer of transshipment points (from land transport to ships) and ports in southern Sweden;
                    d) related intra-German movements in the economy and the order of movement along communications [11].
                    - OKW Directive of May 10, 1939 on the conduct of an economic war
                    The counter military actions against transports in the Atlantic, which began after that on both sides, fundamentally could not bring England the desired effect, since the interested exporters took all measures in advance to move strategic cargo under neutral flags. The main commodity, the supply of which could really lead the war machine of the Third Reich to a crisis, was oil - and it was here that the interests of the United States came into force. Just before the war, the Americans received oil concessions in Saudi Arabia [12].

                    Another foothold where the United States succeeded in rivalry with Great Britain was Mexico, one of the leading oil-producing countries in its region. Chamberlain, in response to the nationalization of the Mexican oil industry in March 1938, responded with a break in diplomatic relations, and US President Roosevelt showed flexibility. As a result, in the summer of 1938, the American oil industrialist W. R. Davis, who maintained close relations with H. Goering, organized the export of Mexican oil to Germany and fascist Italy. From June 1938 to September 1939, the Davis Oil Company transported 3 million tons of Mexican oil across the ocean, and more than half to Germany. As a result, before the war, Mexico's share of German oil imports was 20% [12].

                    Mussolini's maneuver significantly undermined the effectiveness of the British naval blockade of Germany: contrary to the expectations of Chamberlain and Daladier, with the beginning of the war, Italy did not enter the war, but took the position of Hitler's non-belligerent ally. As a result, the British Admiralty was forced to instruct the fleet in the Mediterranean to “be careful” (that is, let Italian ships pass) so as not to provoke Italy's entry into the war [12].
                    If you wish, you can find all this in the "wiki"
                    Quote: Olgovich

                    I didn't even take Switzerland, I was afraid.

                    What nonsense. Why take Switzerland, if it was already a financial partner of Germany, carrying out the fin. connection with the whole world.
                  5. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 20 December 2020 11: 00
                    0
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    If you wish, you can find all this in the "wiki"

                    Thank you.

                    Here is enough detail about the STATUS blockade of Germany in WWII https://ru.qaz.wiki/wiki/Blockade_of_Germany_(1939%E2%80%931945)
                    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                    What nonsense. Why take Switzerland, if it was already a financial partner of Germany, carrying out the fin. connection with the whole world.

                    What nonsense: EVERYONE traded with Hitler. And he, the Turak, attacked them ...
                  6. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 20 December 2020 11: 18
                    0
                    Quote: Olgovich

                    What nonsense: EVERYONE traded with Hitler. And he, the Turak, attacked them ...

                    It seems to you that - nonsense. But in reality - from the occupied countries - "I'll take everything, said damask," I took without paying.
                    And for those who cannot be captured, he left Switzerland, with the help of which "All purchases, said gold", to trade.
                2. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 20 December 2020 21: 20
                  +1
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  From June 1938 to September 1939, the Davis Oil Company transported 3 million tons of Mexican oil across the ocean, and more than half to Germany. As a result, before the war, Mexico's share in German oil imports was 20%

                  So what? Is it any news that in the 30s the Caribbean, Mexico and the United States were the most important oil exporters for continental Europe?
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Mussolini's maneuver significantly undermined the effectiveness of the British naval blockade of Germany

                  Yes? How did he "significantly undermine" it?
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  basically could not bring England the desired effect, since interested exporters took all measures in advance to move strategic cargo under neutral flags

                  The neutral flags were suddenly unfurled too.
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  the main commodity, the supply of which could really lead the war machine of the Third Reich to a crisis, was oil - and this was where US interests came into force. Just before the war, the Americans received oil concessions in Saudi Arabia

                  Nevertheless, the Reich lost American oil, especially Saudi oil.
                3. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 21 December 2020 10: 55
                  -1
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Mussolini's maneuver significantly undermined the effectiveness of the British naval blockade of Germany

                  Yes? How did he "significantly undermine" it?

                  The question is not for me. These are not my words, but copy-paste.
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  The neutral flags were suddenly unfurled too.

                  How many out of a hundred?
                  Quote: Cherry Nine

                  Nevertheless, the Reich lost American oil, especially Saudi oil.

                  Who can argue? The whole question is when?
                  For you and for our colleague Olgovich I will explain - Olgovich argued that Hitler's main goal was Britain and that in order to capture it, Hitler was forced to seize the USSR. I disagreed with that. I affirm that Hitler did not want to go to war with England. That is why he released the British army from Dunkirk, it is because of this that Hess flew to England. It was for this that the bombing of the cities of England was, precisely for this, not for the occupation of England, Doenitz's subordinates staged a blockade (incomplete and not for long) of England. Only to force Britain to peace.
                  Hitler had a goal - the expansion of living space and, due to the fact that he could only expand to the East, then his goal was the USSR.
                  Of course you may ask - why exactly to the East? Yes, because Latin America, Africa, BV were already divided between France, Holland, Britain, and in order to take these colonies for themselves it was necessary to build a fleet and not only a military one. And still have problems. Expanding to the East, he did not take anything from influential countries. He did not count on the resistance of the USSR, considering the USSR "a colossus with feet of clay"
                  Give me as many arguments in favor of the fact that Hitler wanted to seize England, that she was the main goal.
                4. Cherry Nine
                  Cherry Nine 21 December 2020 11: 22
                  +1
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Olgovich argued that Britain was Hitler's main goal and that in order to capture it, Hitler was forced to invade the USSR.

                  Actually, this rather controversial idea belongs directly to Hitler.
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  I affirm that Hitler did not want to go to war with England.

                  I didn't want to, of course. Tried to fix this problem.
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  That is why he let the British army out of Dunkirk,

                  Didn't release.
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  it was because of this that Hess flew to England.

                  You never know what people tried to escape from the country of the most delicious ice cream.
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Hitler had a goal - the expansion of living space and, due to the fact that he could only expand to the East, then his goal was the USSR.

                  In general, living space is the so-called. German voivodeships.
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Expanding to the East, he did not take anything from influential countries. He did not count on the resistance of the USSR, considering the USSR "a colossus with feet of clay"

                  It's funny that you are doing some kind of mix of Hitler's journalism of the 20s (in space) and his own statements of strictly 40 (about the colossus).
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Give me as many arguments in favor of the fact that Hitler wanted to seize England, that she was the main goal.

                  Why should I give arguments? Google Halder's diary and read.
                5. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 21 December 2020 11: 30
                  -1
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                  Olgovich argued that Britain was Hitler's main goal and that in order to capture it, Hitler was forced to invade the USSR.

                  Actually, this rather controversial idea belongs directly to Hitler.

                  Blah blah blah
                  Quote: Cherry Nine
                  I affirm that Hitler did not want to go to war with England.

                  I didn't want to, of course. Tried to fix this problem.

                  Blah blah blah again
                  There is no point in answering further.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 13: 38
    -2
    Quote: Alexey RA
    However, for the time "after the victory over the USSR" a lot of things were planned - from Plan Z to the rearmament of the Panzerwaffe with a single ST ("Panther") and the introduction of TT ("Tiger").

    The main thing is not what they planned after the victory over the USSR, but that the period to victory over the USSR fell on "before the cold weather." "Let's Go Home for Christmas" version 1.0. This is a little inconsistent with the idea of ​​"fighting Bolshevism for world domination."

    By the way, the same plan in version 2.0 shows that not only the Germans had a strange idea of ​​the war in Europe.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 18 December 2020 17: 31
      +1
      Quote: Cherry Nine
      The main thing is not what they planned after the victory over the USSR, but that the period before the victory over the USSR fell on "before the cold weather." "Let's Go Home for Christmas" version 1.0. This is a little inconsistent with the idea of ​​"fighting Bolshevism for world domination."

      Well, here, rather, one should complain about the national peculiarities of German planning. The gloomy Teutonic genius had planned the same thing the previous time, with the whole Entente in his opponents.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 22: 27
        +1
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The gloomy Teutonic genius had planned the same thing the previous time, with the whole Entente in his opponents.

        Duck, they generally had only one plan)))

        Although the participants write that in comparison with the Reichswehr, there really were no plans at all, some improvisations of the General Staff and unscientific fiction from Hitler.
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 16: 06
    +4
    Quote: Alexey RA

    You see, what's the matter ... the defeat of the USSR was not an end in itself for the Reich.

    Did he write his Mein Kampf to hide his true purpose?
    Quote: Alexey RA
    pressure on Britain to force it to peace. For some reason, Adolf decided that Russia was Britain's last hope for

    And did Aloizovich tell you this himself?
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Moreover, the victory over the USSR made it possible at last to partially demobilize the army, directing the freed up hands into agriculture (for in the Reich

    But if you did not start a war with the USSR, then the army could not be partially demobilized. wassat
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 16: 41
      0
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      Did he write his Mein Kampf to hide his true purpose?

      Do you know what he wrote there?
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      And did Aloizovich tell you this himself?

      NGSH Halder.
      Assumption: We will not attack England, but break up the illusions that give England the will to resist. Then we can hope for a change in her position. The war itself is won. France fell away from the "British lion." Italy fetters British troops. Submarine and air war can decide the outcome of the war, but it will last a year or two.

      The hope of England is Russia and America. If hopes for Russia collapse, America will also fall away from England, since the defeat of Russia will result in the incredible strengthening of Japan in East Asia.

      Russia is the East Asian sword of England and America against Japan. An unpleasant wind blows here for England. The Japanese, like the Russians, have their own plan, according to which Russia should be eliminated before the end of the war. Russian film about the victorious war! England especially relies on Russia. Something happened in London! The British were completely discouraged, now they suddenly perked up again.

      Overheard conversations. Russia is unhappy with the rapid development of events in Western Europe. It is enough for Russia to tell England that it does not want to see Germany too [strong] for the British to cling to this statement as if drowning in a straw, and began to hope that in six to eight months things will turn out very differently.

      If Russia is defeated, England will lose her last hope. Then Germany will dominate Europe and the Balkans

      Conclusion: In accordance with this reasoning, Russia should be eliminated. The deadline is spring 1941.

      The sooner we break up Russia, the better. An operation will only make sense if we crush the entire state with one swift blow. Just capturing some part of the territory is not enough.

      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      But if you did not start a war with the USSR, then the army could not be partially demobilized.

      You can't. Since Comrade Stalin may have his own view of what is happening.
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 17: 09
        0
        Quote: Cherry Nine

        NGSH Halder.

        You see, it was he who told Halder so that he would do the job better. And for myself it is somewhat different - "

        = Hitler also speaks of the need for the coming war, justifying it by the need to expand living space. =
        Is it at the expense of the island? And further -
        = Russia, Hitler perceived more as a space for territorial expansion, the state core of which was once the German elements, ousted or destroyed by the Jews during the Bolshevik revolution: =
        So he needed the USSR to conquer England or to expand living space?
        All your insinuations are from the same opera as - the USSR is a minor participant in WWII who did not play a significant role in the victory over Germany.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 17: 24
          -2
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          You see, it was he who told Halder so that he would do the job better. And for myself, it's somewhat different -

          Yes? Wow, what an insincere person ...
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          Is it at the expense of the island? And further -

          Since you copy and paste Ruvik, you see in it that the war is coming with France, and Russia is perceived as a free zone, something like Somalia. But they even decided to misinterpret Ruvik.
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 18 December 2020 18: 52
          0
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          You see, it was he who told Halder so that he would do the job better.

          Wilhelm Keitel, Alfred Jodl, Erich Raeder, Walter von Brauchitsch and Franz Halder attended the meeting on July 31.07.1940, XNUMX in the Berghof. So it was bringing the official point of view of the political leadership to the military leadership.
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          But if you did not start a war with the USSR, then the army could not be partially demobilized.

          Even the peaceful USSR demanded the presence of 110-120 mobilized divisions on the eastern border. Plus, the Red Army grew steadily and was rearmed. So the Red Army would have to be taken into account when planning all campaigns in the West. Well, how will an Englishwoman sign a Russian steam rink for herself again?
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 18 December 2020 20: 53
            -1
            Quote: Alexey RA

            Even the peaceful USSR demanded the presence of 110-120 mobilized divisions on the eastern border.

            I do not understand the logic of Germany in your performance. Germany took Poland in order to keep 110-120 divisions against the peaceful USSR? So it turns out according to your logic. And according to my logic, Germany took the whole of Europe with one goal - to increase its economic potential and human resources to conquer Germany's "living space" precisely at the expense of Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic States and the European part of Russia.
            If France and Britain had not declared war on Germany, I admit the thought - Hitler would not have touched them. And they would not touch him, because Germany did not encroach on their colonies. Germany wanted to conquer colonies in the East - the USSR,
          2. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 21: 56
            +2
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Germany took Poland in order to keep 110-120 divisions against the peaceful USSR? So it turns out according to your logic.

            Germany took Poland to solve completely local problems with Danzig and some other little things. But she got stuck. It is the case when the claw is stuck - the whole bird is lost.
  • mat-vey
    mat-vey 18 December 2020 18: 33
    0
    Quote: Krasnoyarsk
    But if you did not start a war with the USSR, then the army could not be partially demobilized.

    And feeding is also not much more than in the near future.
  • chenia
    chenia 18 December 2020 09: 56
    -2
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    that Barbarossa was planned for a short-term auxiliary campaign in a secondary direction


    OPsolutely true Аone-to-one! The main direction is the USA.
    it was planned to land a landing on the west coast (for other secrecy, well, so that the fuck would surprise everyone) in several army groups.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 10: 13
      0
      No, you didn't guess. The Reich and the States did not have any significant contradictions at all until the States themselves got involved in the European showdown.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 18 December 2020 11: 26
        0
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        The Reich and the States did not have any significant contradictions at all until the States themselves got involved in the European showdown.

        belay it was Germany that declared war on the United States, and not vice versa.
        1. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 11: 31
          +2
          Quote: Olgovich
          Germany has declared war on the United States, not the other way around.

          When Germany declared war on the United States, the United States had been shipping weapons to Britain for almost a year. from the American budget and hunted German submarines in their half of the Atlantic. So not only the USSR at that time had a rather strange neutrality, the USA also approached with imagination.
    2. chenia
      chenia 18 December 2020 10: 17
      +3
      YES! So Barbarossa was already a tertiary direction. And the Fuhrer decided to throw all his forces into Palestine to deal with the Jews.
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 10: 37
        -1
        In Palestine, Hitler wanted to attach just Jews, but the British were sharply opposed. It was Hitler who was generally satisfied with the Zionist project.

        Somehow you don't get along with the story, to be honest.
        1. chenia
          chenia 18 December 2020 10: 57
          +2
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          You don't get along with the story


          And you have a slow reaction (probably before the weekend). The sarcasm was not caught.
          1. Cherry Nine
            Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 11: 03
            -1
            I do not always catch sarcasm about the Reich and the Jews.
  • kalibr
    kalibr 18 December 2020 17: 01
    +1
    I have not looked, but is there about the "masters of the West"?
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 17: 03
      +3
      This time, very indirectly, there, too, the capitalists set the fighting hamster of Hitler's imperialism to seize the Ural mines, but for some reason not the American imperialists, but the German, transatlantic plutocrats somehow fell out of sight this time.
  • zenion
    zenion 18 December 2020 18: 42
    0
    The author did not open this and did not plan. You did not even deign to read the title of the article "Preparing for an Attack on the USSR". But you cannot master this, for this you need to remember what we are talking about. In general, you are not dogmatic, but maybe very much.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 18 December 2020 21: 59
      0
      Quote: zenion
      You didn't even deign to read the title of the article

      Who am I? I read, and not even just the title. By the way, he is different, you quoted him incorrectly.
  • Vladimir_2U
    Vladimir_2U 18 December 2020 05: 49
    +6
    Militarization and mobilization, all the more total, are not the same thing.
    1. NDR-791
      NDR-791 18 December 2020 06: 45
      +4
      Militarization and mobilization, all the more total, are not the same thing.
      Certainly not one. The economy of Germany itself almost until the middle of 1942. worked in peacetime mode. The Germans "digested" European trophies and the captured industry. In Germany itself, the people were to enjoy the fruits of military victories. And then things got bad.
  • Proxima
    Proxima 18 December 2020 07: 38
    +19
    The Third Reich had the potential (military, industrial, human, raw materials, and so on) of all continental Europe, which surpassed the USSR in all respects. Plus, there are also significant territories of the Soviet Union, which have huge economic and human potential, which have come under occupation. We also need to remember that Germany has been conducting large-scale military operations for two years now and its army has been completely mobilized! It is now the clever people who love to rant in hindsight that Germany had no chance. It was just the opposite, it was absolutely clear to everyone in the world (especially in August-September 41) that the USSR had no chance! The only question was how long Russia would hold out and how dearly it would sell its "life." How our country withstood all this is incomprehensible to the mind!
  • Pravodel
    Pravodel 18 December 2020 09: 34
    +2
    Stalin created a triune monolith - the party, the army and the people. Society for Knowledge, Service and Creation

    Add to this the defeat in 37 of the 5th column inside the USSR. If Stalin had not cleared out the 5th column, then what would have happened to the Union, one can only guess ...
    Taking into account the situation in the world and on the outskirts of Russia, isn't it time for us in Russia to start cleaning the 5th column! ???? ...
    1. zenion
      zenion 18 December 2020 18: 44
      +4
      What to protect? There is no trinity and is not planned!
  • Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 18 December 2020 13: 47
    0
    Quote: Uncle Lee
    they also put things in order in Asia!

    what order in Asia are we talking about?
  • Vadim237
    Vadim237 18 December 2020 17: 11
    0
    But before that, the Red Army was broken in in the 41st so that it almost disappeared in the western direction, we were lucky that Japan did not attack the Far East, otherwise there would have been no one and nothing to do to the offices near Moscow in December 41.
    1. zenion
      zenion 31 January 2021 22: 45
      0
      Vadim 237. There is a wise Russian saying - chickens are counted in the fall. Someone may not survive. There was such a movie "Golden Tooth". There one wanted to scare a man in order to rob. He pulled out a knife and went against him, and the other one flicked him lightly on the forehead and he fell. Finally he came to his senses and asks the golden tooth - did I frighten you great? Of course great, I already thought I killed you. Mind you, I hit only twice, once on the forehead, the second time on the lid of the coffin. That's how the Germans scared the USSR. You are lucky to write to us. What do you have to do with this?
  • alpamys
    alpamys 18 December 2020 04: 40
    +1
    see in November 1940 Hitler and Molotov did not find a common language and in December a new plan was ripe.
    What was the speech about at the meeting of Molotov Hitler on November 12, 1940, would you like to see these documents?
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 18 December 2020 13: 10
      +2
      Quote: alpamys
      What was the speech about at the meeting of Molotov Hitler on November 12, 1940, would you like to see these documents?

      and what hinders something? There is a record of the conversation between Molotov and Hitler on November 12, made by Schmidt, and a transcript of the conversation on November 13 in handwritten and typewritten form (with the IVS notes).
      Too lazy to search?
  • alpamys
    alpamys 18 December 2020 04: 50
    +1
    only within the blitzkrieg. That is, there were no reserves in Germany in case of Plan B - a possible long war of attrition.

    Blitzkrieg Germans (former Wehrmacht officers), by the way, translate in their own way, not lightning fast, Blitz is translated as lightning, but sudden, they say, what was at hand, so they attacked.
    They explained this to me after I showed a photo of this document, which I photographed in the museum on Poklonnaya Hill, the date of submission to print is June 20, 1941.
    on the folder is "Top secret for official use, collection of military and topographic maps of the European part of Russia and Moscow"
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 18 December 2020 12: 28
      0
      Quote: alpamys
      Blitzkrieg Germans (former Wehrmacht officers), by the way, translate in their own way, not lightning fast, Blitz is translated as lightning, but sudden, they say, what was at hand, so they attacked.
      they explained this to me after

      who explained? Former Wehrmacht officers? Wow...

      Quote: alpamys
      they say what was on hand, so they attacked.

      what nonsense? Fantasy with reference to "veterans of the Wehrmacht" amused, yes)
      There is an interpretation of the "fleeting war" of its theorist Alfred von Schlieffen with the formula # victory as at Cannes is a justifiably risky undertaking bordering on an adventure with the admission that the enemy must have his own blunt tactician Terence Varro (which, in fact, happened in 1941 ). It was these Soviet tendencies that the Varrons allowed the catastrophes of 41-42.
      Why invent some of your own interpretations of a completely unambiguous term blitzkrieg?
      1. alpamys
        alpamys 18 December 2020 13: 49
        +2
        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        what nonsense? Fantasy with reference to the "veterans of the Wehrmacht" amused,

        and in what doubts? I live in Germany for a long time, I am interested in the history of WW2, imagine, my friends and colleagues have living fathers and grandfathers who served both in the Wehrmacht, the Luftwaffe and in the SS. Even a neighbor at the entrance died a year ago, there was a huntsman from Edelweiss.
  • samarin1969
    samarin1969 18 December 2020 05: 48
    +7
    It was another "crusade" of Europe against Russia. War of civilizations.

    But this is already a sensible idea. The entire German people went to war with Russia, with the exception of single dissidents. And the Germans, Romanians, Hungarians and their servants went to war with the peoples of the USSR merrily and cruelly. Those who say that Russia was at war with "fascism" repeat a similar myth that the Germans went "to fight the communists and Jews." The grandfathers of today's Europeans fought and worked together to destroy our grandfathers and mothers. It was a war of nations. Mr. Samsonov pointed out to the spot that everyone was enthusiastically involved in "Barbarossa": workers and peasants, the elite of the army and industrialists, scientists, millions of "friends of Germany". And this must be remembered and told to children.
    1. apro
      apro 18 December 2020 07: 47
      -5
      Quote: samarin1969
      It was another "crusade" of Europe against Russia. War of civilizations.

      But this is already a sensible idea. To the war with Russia

      To the war with the USSR. A new center of civilization excluding personal enrichment at the expense of fellow citizens. The equality of all is not dependent on racial, religious, material characteristics.
  • andrewkor
    andrewkor 18 December 2020 06: 06
    +1
    In general, the revival of Germany as a shock weapon against the country of victorious socialism was originally conceived by the sharks of capitalism: helping the fascists, bringing them to power, the destruction of Versailles, the Anschluss of Austria, the tearing of Czechoslovakia.
    But the rabid dog pounced on his patrons and almost won finally.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 18 December 2020 13: 42
      -5
      Quote: andrewkor
      In general, the revival of Germany as a shock weapon against the country of victorious socialism was originally conceived by the sharks of capitalism: helping the fascists, bringing them to power, the destruction of Versailles, the Anschluss of Austria, the tearing of Czechoslovakia.
      But the rabid dog pounced on his patrons and almost won finally.

      how much pathos. Do you like to think in newspaper propaganda?
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 18 December 2020 07: 28
    +3
    Germany has strengthened significantly: 9 states were captured with their military-economic potentiallabor resources available military supplies... Germany took control of over 850 thousand sq. km and more than 100 million people.


    A huge, sharp increase in labor and material resources, more than doubled!

    And by how many percentage units, "gaining time", did the USSR increase the same over the same period?

    Those. in less than a year, the strength of Germany increased much more than the strength of the USSR.

    But back in May 1940, everything was absolutely different and there was still a whole France and full-blooded England in the West ...
    1. strannik1985
      strannik1985 18 December 2020 08: 18
      +2
      But back in May 1940, everything was absolutely different.

      "Not so" - "Strange war", when the so-called allies sit behind the Maginot Line and wait for the Reich and the USSR to grapple with each other? I absolutely agree, "not so", but how is it better for the Union?
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 18 December 2020 08: 21
        0
        Quote: strannik1985
        I absolutely agree, "not so", but how is it better for the Union?

        I repeat again: the forces of the Germans are TWO TIMES less than in 41 g, and Germany is between the WHOLE warring France and the mighty USSR.
        1. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 18 December 2020 08: 58
          +9
          And in 1939 the Germans had less forces than in 1940. And the USSR offered France and England a sound plan of action, the best for all of them. Europe did not want to ... recourse
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 18 December 2020 10: 45
            +3
            Quote: Sahar Medovich
            And in 1939 the Germans had less forces than in 1940. And the USSR offered France and England a sound plan of action, the best for all of them. Europe did not want to ..

            They did not believe the USSR ...

            But in May 1940, during Hitler's campaign against France, there was a unique advantageous situation, which was repeated only after June 1944.
            1. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 18 December 2020 14: 18
              +3
              Quote: Olgovich
              Didn't believe the USSR

              If you didn't believe ... Or if only you didn't believe ...
              Quote: Olgovich
              in May 1940, during Hitler's campaign against France, there was a unique advantageous situation

              We now know. yes
              1. Olgovich
                Olgovich 18 December 2020 18: 29
                -2
                Quote: Sahar Medovich

                If they did not believe ... Or if only they did not believe.

                Who in their right mind would believe the Comintern country?
                Quote: Sahar Medovich
                Now we know

                It's you now.

                And normal people since 1914
                1. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 19 December 2020 05: 43
                  -1
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  Who in their right mind would believe the Comintern country?

                  Anyone in their right mind. At least the same ones that helped her to gain industrial strength. It's just that common sense can manifest itself in politics in different ways. Under different circumstances. hi
                  Quote: Olgovich
                  And normal people since 1914

                  Normal people from 1914 and especially after 1918 knew that it was very difficult to fight the Germans even on two fronts. Therefore, in the 1930s in Zap. Europe had a policy - let someone else fight with them, and we somehow differently. stop
                  1. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 19 December 2020 11: 32
                    +1
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    Anyone in their right mind.

                    Nobody-see A REAL Story.
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    At least the same ones that helped her to gain industrial strength.

                    Nobody helped, all for MONEY, business as usual.
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    It's just that common sense can manifest itself in politics in different ways. Under different circumstances.

                    This is yes.
                    Quote: Sahar Medovich
                    Normal people from 1914 and especially after 1918 knew that it was very difficult to fight the Germans even on two fronts. Therefore, in the 1930s in the West. Europe had a policy - let someone else fight with them, and we are somehow different.

                    The same policy of the USSR in 1940. Lessons:
                    Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                    that it is very difficult to fight the Germans even on two fronts
                    forgotten ALWAYS.
                    Came to a disaster on the 41st.
                    1. Sugar Honeyovich
                      Sugar Honeyovich 19 December 2020 12: 27
                      0
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      see REAL Story

                      I'm talking about her.
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      all for MONEY, business as usual

                      Yes, for the money. But - not a blockade and not a sanction that could be.
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      The same policy of the USSR in 1940

                      As with us, so are we. They left us no other choice.
                      Quote: Olgovich
                      forgotten ALWAYS.

                      Not the USSR.
                      1. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 19 December 2020 13: 26
                        0
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        I'm talking about her.

                        no: give an example of countries supporting ISIS (COMINTERNA)
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Yes, for the money. But - not a blockade and not a sanction that could be.

                        Sanctions against Germany.

                        from the USSR, just BUSINESS. No "support"
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        As with us, so are we. They left us no other choice.

                        To make YOURSELF worse is ..... "way out"? belay
                        The situation in 1941 for us was MUCH worse for 40 years.
                        A bit of a strategist hasn't learned the lessons of PMA
                      2. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 19 December 2020 14: 25
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        no: give an example of support

                        Yes. Diplomatic relations and business are also support. But here it was not about the Comintern, but about Russia as such.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        The situation in 1941 for us was MUCH worse than 40

                        Yes. But that was our trouble, but not our fault.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        A bit of a strategist hasn't learned the lessons of PMA

                        More precisely: strategist I. European. And they learned, but did not want to do the right thing, as ours suggested many times. Everyone got worse.
                      3. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 19 December 2020 15: 04
                        0
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Diplomatic relations and business are also support

                        support yourself... They absolutely did not care about the benefits of the USSR.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        But here it was not about the Comintern, but about Russia as such.

                        There was no Russia then for the United States and others. Erased her name from the map of the world. your ki
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Yes. But that was our trouble, but not our fault.

                        the trouble stemmed from guilt.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich

                        More precisely: strategist I. European. And they learned, but did not want to do the right thing, as ours suggested many times. Everyone got worse.

                        They were no less afraid of us than Hitler.

                        And the stratech did not take advantage of May 1940, he SAID: "Let them beat them up, get bogged down, and we will push both those and those.

                        It is he ignorance of the lessons of such conversations.
                      4. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 19 December 2020 15: 36
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        They absolutely did not care about the benefits of the USSR

                        Nevertheless, they created them.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        There was no Russia then for the USA and others

                        Only she was. And as it was called - it was not interesting to anyone. And the Comintern - so, a fastener.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        They were no less afraid of us than Hitler.

                        No. From experience 1 MV knew that Germany was strong, Russia was weak. And an alliance with her is useless. Moreover, Hitler was sharpening his teeth on Russia, therefore, it was only necessary to push him in the right direction ... This is from knowing the lessons of the past, but an incorrect assessment of the present. Them, the Europeans.
                      5. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 19 December 2020 15: 43
                        0
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich

                        Nevertheless, they created them.

                        This was not their goal. They earned on the USSR during the hardest crisis in the United States. USSR saved his worst enemy cap.
                        Only she was. And as it was called - it was not interesting to anyone. And the Comintern - so, a fastener.
                        There was no-see map of the world.
                        From experience 1 MV knew that Germany was strong, Russia was weak. AND union with her is useless.
                        lol

                        Zha Fantsiya achieved this alliance with all her might!
                        And there would be no victory in WWI without Russia, read the francs themselves

                        Moreover, Hitler was sharpening his teeth on Russia, therefore, it was only necessary to push him in the right direction ... This is from knowing the lessons of the past, but an incorrect assessment of the present. Them, the Europeans.

                        Yes, they should even go to the moon, but not to the West. For them, that one, that another is all the same.

                        And the USSR missed its chance
                      6. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 19 December 2020 16: 22
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        This was not their goal.

                        Yes, THIS was not the goal. But the result was.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        They made money on the USSR during the hardest crisis in the USA

                        Well, yes, and the USSR is on them.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        USSR saved its worst enemy cap

                        Did the USA raise their own? laughing
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Zha Fantsiya achieved this alliance with all her might!

                        After 1871, but in the 1930s, no.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        And there would be no victory in WWI without Russia, read the francs themselves

                        And they did not want this to WWII. What did you think?
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Yes, they should even go to the moon, but not to the West.

                        What are we talking about. They missed a colossal chance themselves and did not give it to the USSR.
                      7. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 20 December 2020 12: 30
                        0
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        What are we talking about. Have missed a colossal chance

                        Namely: the USSR missed its chance in the nicest May 1940 and got a catastrophe in 41.

                        The Red Army remained the same, but the situation is at times worse.

                        PS no one (Poles) in their right mind will not let the commuters into their territory: see the Baltics
                      8. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 20 December 2020 15: 12
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        USSR missed its chance in the nicest May 1940

                        If - IF! - even this is so, it is again the trouble of the USSR, and not the fault. Our government did not have a time machine, and Messing and Vanga said nothing ...
                        But in fact, no one knows whether this chance was favorable and whether it was at all. From the standpoint of today, we can say: rather no than yes.
                        But in 1938-39. chance - yes, no doubt, was missed. Through the fault of the British, Poles, and to a lesser extent the French.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        PS no one (Poles) in their right mind will not let the commuters into their territory

                        Would the Poles let the Russians in? Let it be with the king at the head?
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        see the baltics

                        And in the Baltics, the "Cominterns" were greeted with a bang. There is no question of Western Ukraine and Belarus.
                      9. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 20 December 2020 17: 12
                        +1
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        If - IF! - even so, then this again same trouble USSR, not wine. Our government did not have a time machine, and Messing with Vanga they didn't say anything ..

                        Yes, the lack of brains at the top is a byad ...

                        You open the PMV textbook, and here is the message "messing"

                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And in fact, No one knows whether this chance was favorable and whether it was at all.

                        Cm . August 1914 What's not clear?

                        And the chance is at times higher than 1941.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Would the Poles let the Russians in? Let it be with the king at the head?

                        Of course, there and Franz / England would have forced
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And in the Baltics, the "Cominterns" were greeted with a bang.

                        It's not about hurray, but about the small bases of the Red Army in independent countries that turned these countries into ... SSR.

                        So it was not in vain that they were afraid ...
                      10. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 21 December 2020 07: 31
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        lack of top brains

                        Our neighbors.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You open the PMV textbook, and here is the message "messing"

                        Proceeding from the PMA textbook, no "messing" would have guessed what would happen in 1939-41. And even more so later ...
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        August 1914 What's not clear?

                        It is absolutely clear that August 1914 is absolutely (sorry for the tautology) not the same as May 1940.
                        According to the experience of August 1914, Voroshilov offered a favorable chance in August 1939. His proposal did not find understanding ... request
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Of course, there and Franz / England would have forced

                        France in 1939 tried to force it - the Poles said it was not necessary. They themselves, they say, pile on the Germans. And England was against it at all. It would be the same with the empire if it existed. Definitely!
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        It's not about hurray

                        And oh hurray too. Mainly.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        not in vain were they afraid

                        Were they afraid? There are pre-war documents about the low assessment of the USSR as a military force. And about what they feared because of the "Comintern"?
                        "Now ... historians in chorus authoritatively assert that the Poles, not agreeing to let Soviet troops into their territory, they say, were afraid that these troops would not leave after the victory over the Germans and would establish Soviet power in Poland or seize Poland from Poland previously seized from Ukraine. and the territory of Belarus. This is nonsense! This is post-war propaganda!
                        Before the war, the Poles did not even stutter about this reason, there is not a single document that would indicate that the Polish government worried about this "(Mukhin)
                      11. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 21 December 2020 10: 09
                        0
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Were they afraid? There are pre-war documents about the low assessment of the USSR as a military force. And about what they feared because of the "Comintern"?

                        They were afraid of seizures, overthrows and revolutions.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Before the war, the Poles did not even stutter about this reason, there is not a single document that would indicate that the Polish government worried about this "(Mukhin)

                        There are documents: see Munich Agreement.
                        And listen to a sick man No.
                      12. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 21 December 2020 15: 32
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        There are some instruments: see Munich Agreement.

                        More specifically?
                      13. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 21 December 2020 16: 52
                        0
                        Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        There are some instruments: see Munich Agreement.

                        More specifically?

                        The Poles said they would bomb and fight the USSR if ours go to an emergency
                      14. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 21 December 2020 18: 17
                        0
                        That's it. Only a) this is not about the Comintern, but about Russia proper and b) no fear among the Poles. Hatred, anger - yes, beyond measure.
                      15. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 21 December 2020 22: 10
                        0
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Only a) it's not about the Comintern, but about Russia proper

                        There was no "Russia" for anyone, but there was the USSR with Cominten (ISIS)

                        Well, what kind of ichiot even today will let in the troops of the country where the pro-government organization works, the official goal of which is to overthrow the authorities of the receiving side and seize?
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        b) Poles have no fear. Hatred, anger - yes, beyond measure.

                        All three components were: does one exclude the other? belay
                      16. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 07: 54
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        There was no "Russia" for anyone, but there was the USSR with Cominten (ISIS)

                        There was only Russia. For all. The Comintern is just an addition.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        will let in the troops of the country where the pro-government organization works, the official goal of which is to overthrow the power of the receiving side and seize?

                        For Poles - 1790s. With Russia as well.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        All three components were: does one exclude the other?

                        In general, they may not be excluded. But the Poles at that time - yes.
                        So there is some thread in the pre-war document where this reason would appear - the Comintern?
                        ,
                      17. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 22 December 2020 10: 41
                        0
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        There was only Russia. For all.

                        It didn't exist for anyone: see DOCUMENTS of all countries: NOT a word about Russia, only the USSR.

                        Present the same DOCUMENT with an appeal to RUSSIA. No? no!

                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        For Poles - 1790s. With Russia as well.
                        belay
                        Once again: Well, what ichiot even today will let in the troops of the country where the pro-government organization works, the official goal of which is to overthrow the power of the receiving party and seize it?
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        But the Poles at that time - yes.

                        The Prlyaks declared that they would BOMB and fight during the occupation of Poland by the passage of troops. Fear of occupation is the reason for this.

                        And the USSR did not fight against the occupation?
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        So there is some thread in the pre-war document where this reason would appear - the Comintern?

                        There are - see the statements of the Poles about THE USSR.

                        Or is there a statement by the USSR on the renunciation of the Comintern and on the condemnation of the Comintern? Again, no? No!
                      18. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 16: 05
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        It didn't exist for anyone: see DOCUMENTS of all countries: NOT a word about Russia, only the USSR.

                        There are a LOT of documents, including official ones, where it says "Russia". Read Chamberlain: “I must confess my deepest distrust of Russia”;
                        Churchill: "It is impossible to create an Eastern Front against Nazi aggression without the active assistance of Russia"; reports of French and English diplomatic officers to their governments: "Hitler" will risk starting a war if he does not have to fight with Russia. If he knows that he will also have to fight with Russia ”; "We believe that Russia wants to conclude an agreement with Britain and France"
                        The official name was the USSR, in the documents on joint actions they called it, of course, that way, but for the whole world, Russia was (in every sense) and remained. Albeit with a new state structure and ideology.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Well, what kind of ichiot even today will let in the troops of the country where the pro-government organization works, the official goal of which is to overthrow the authorities of the receiving side and seize?

                        And what reasonable person would refuse an alliance against a dangerous and powerful enemy? Probably someone who inadequately assesses the situation, declaring: "It is the Polish army that will invade Germany - from the very beginning"? Can this be called an ichiot? If not, why not? Or the one who ... had the intention to unite with this enemy against proposing an alliance in order to restore Poland from Moz to Moz? How should you treat such a neighbor?
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        The Prlyaks declared that they would BOMB and fight during the occupation of Poland by the passage of troops. Fear of occupation is the reason for this.

                        So there is still a pre-war document with SUCH wording? Show!
                        There are documents with the statements of the Poles that they will start a war with the USSR if it enters their land to help Czechoslovakia and refuses to let the Russians in to help them themselves. Why did the Poles do this? Not because of fear of occupation, but with the aim of occupying someone else's land ourselves, isn't it?
                        On the other hand, the French at the talks in Moscow found the Soviet argument about the need to bring the Red Army into Poland and Romania "logical and for us, unfortunately, irrefutable" and put pressure on the Poles to agree. Churchill considered the same to be correct. It turns out that they did not consider the occupation and overthrow of the power in Poland probable?
                        Chamberlain was against an alliance with Russia-USSR, and Churchill was in favor. And the British generals are in favor. He was not "afraid of us no less than Hitler"?
                      19. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 22 December 2020 23: 14
                        +1
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        There are a LOT of documents, including official ones, where it says "Russia".

                        so declare them, in an appeal to the USSR.

                        As he was called behind his back, he is not interested even once.

                        And this is logical: after all, even NOT ONE owl leader said this.

                        Or bring them: "The USSR is Russia !? What? No? No!
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And what reasonable person would refuse an alliance against a dangerous and powerful enemy?

                        So there are such enemies .... TWO! And who should you choose?

                        For the physical preservation of the people and the state, of course, it is better to choose an alliance with the USSR.

                        But this is the knowledge of today. And for those days, the Great Terror and the darkness of the 30s was not a big secret
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        There are documents with the statements of the Poles that they will start a war with the USSR if it enters their land to help Czechoslovakia and refuses to let the Russians in to help them themselves. Why did the Poles do this? Not because of fear of occupation, but with the aim of occupying someone else's land ourselves, isn't it?

                        is it not at all: in order not to be occupied: they KNEW that no one would leave afterwards. that's what happened
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        On the other hand, the French at the talks in Moscow found the Soviet argument about the need to bring the Red Army into Poland and Romania "logical and for us, unfortunately, irrefutable" and put pressure on the Poles to agree. Churchill considered the same to be correct. It turns out that they did not consider the occupation and overthrow of the power in Poland probable?

                        They believed, but France already did not care about the Poles
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Chamberlain was against an alliance with Russia-USSR, and Churchill was in favor. And the British generals are in favor. He was not "afraid of us no less than Hitler"?

                        Churchill doesn't give a damn about the Poles.
                      20. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 23 December 2020 07: 58
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        in an appeal to the USSR. As he was called behind the back, does not interest even once.

                        And in vain. And they called them behind the backs and treated them like Russia. The one and only
                        The appeal is, of course, by the official name. If a person has changed his first and last name, in your opinion, should he still be addressed in the old way? Has he himself changed, has he become fundamentally different? You are doing childishness.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        not even ANY owl leader said that.

                        "" Stalin said more than once, "V.M. recalled. Molotov, - that Russia is winning wars, but does not know how to use the fruits of victories. Russians are fighting great, but they do not know how to make peace, they are bypassed, not given enough. "In conversations with foreign interlocutors during the war years, Stalin repeated the same idea more than once."
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        not to be occupied: they KNEW

                        Where did they say this BEFORE the war?
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        France already didn't care about the Poles

                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Churchill doesn't give a damn about the Poles.

                        So for your own safety? And to expand and strengthen the USSR too? A strange kind of fear. belay
                      21. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 23 December 2020 09: 50
                        +1
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And in vain. And they called them behind the backs and treated them like Russia. The one and only
                        The appeal is, of course, by the official name. If a person has changed his first and last name, in your opinion, should he still be addressed in the old way? Has he himself changed, has he become fundamentally different? You are doing childishness.

                        The USSR is NOT Russia.

                        And for the statement to the contrary in the national republics, the applicants would have received in the butt-so brought up people in the social. republics.
                        I grew up here and I know.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        "" Stalin said more than once, "V.M. recalled. Molotov, - that Russia is winning wars, but does not know how to use the fruits of victories. Russians are fighting great, but they do not know how to make peace, they are bypassed, not given enough. "In conversations with foreign interlocutors during the war years, Stalin repeated the same idea more than once

                        lol
                        A clumsy attempt: talking about something else.

                        Bring his words: "The USSR is Russia." No? No!!
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Where did they say this BEFORE the war?

                        See what happened in the USSR and WHAT in the CI program
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        So for your own safety? And to expand and strengthen the USSR too? A strange kind of fear.

                        On the contrary: they were ready to spit on the Poles in order to get the USSR as an allies.

                        But there were few of them (in England)
                      22. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 23 December 2020 11: 05
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        The USSR is NOT Russia.

                        Russia and nothing else.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        for asserting the opposite in the national republics, the applicants would have received in the butt-so brought up people in the social. republics

                        And for the statement that the Earth is a ball and goes around the Sun once it was possible to get on the fire. Does this mean that this statement is false? And in the old days the indigenous Siberians were Russians! - they were offended when they heard that Siberia is Russia. And how people were brought up in RI is better not to remember at all ..
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Bring his words: "The USSR is Russia."

                        He said: "Russia" in the present tense, ie about the USSR.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        See what happened in the USSR and WHAT in the CI program

                        Therefore, Mukhin is right. Q.E.D.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        But there were few of them (in England)

                        And there were more of those who do not care about others and about themselves?
                      23. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 23 December 2020 12: 26
                        +1
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Russia and nothing else.

                        No.

                        There was NO Russia in Moldova, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, etc. That which reminded that it was Russia-the monuments were mercilessly DESTROYED. books, people, culture, history, etc.

                        Your Novorossia, for example, has turned into ... southern Ukraine fool
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And how people were brought up in RI is better not to remember at all

                        They brought up beautifully: my grandmother (Lithuanian) was proud of her Motherland, Russia, so she was taught in RUSSIAN Odessa, before you.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        He said: "Russia" in the present tense, ie about the USSR.

                        Bring his words: the USSR is RUSSIA. "They are not in nature, neither he nor anyone else
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Therefore, Mukhin is right. Q.E.D.

                        The patient is always right lol
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And there were more of those who do not care about others and about themselves?

                        There were more of those who were more afraid of us than Hitler.
                      24. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 23 December 2020 16: 13
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        mercilessly DESTROYED-monuments. books, people, culture, history, etc.

                        Were people there destroyed? Then on what basis are you alive? Or are you not Russian? fool
                        In fact, all this happened in 1918-22. (a consequence of "excellent" upbringing in RI) and occurs after 1991, in short - only with you.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        my grandmother (Lithuanian) was proud of her homeland, Russia, this is how she was taught in RUSSIAN

                        And now millions of grandparents and even their children and grandchildren are proud of the USSR. Nostalgia for him For almost 30 years, it does not go away, and sometimes intensifies. And on socialism - not only in the former USSR.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        There were more of those who were more afraid of us than Hitler.

                        Only they did not know about it. So are the Poles.
                      25. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 23 December 2020 19: 23
                        +1
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        Were people there destroyed? Then on what basis are you alive? Or are you not Russian?

                        You're lying, you can't interrupt everyone!
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And now millions of grandparents and even their children and grandchildren are proud of the USSR. Nostalgia for him For almost 30 years, it does not go away, and sometimes intensifies. And on socialism - not only in the former USSR.

                        Who, show me, is proud of the betrayal of Odessa, Nikolaev, Kherson, Yekaterinoslav, Verny, etc., to the "Ukrainians" and the violent Ukrainizations carried out there?

                        The grandmothers of the OUN members are proud, and the Russian is ashamed of the murder of Novorossiya.
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        but they did not know about it. Like the Poles

                        They all knew, I will repeat ONCE AGAIN: about the many millions who died of hunger, and about the many millions of peasants exiled WITHOUT COURT, and about hundreds of thousands of those shot in one year, and about many millions in the camps, and the plans of KI.

                        You dfor comparison, look what Hitler did in this regard by the summer of 1939. Have you looked? Well, how-who was it?
                      26. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 24 December 2020 05: 43
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        You're lying, you can't interrupt everyone!

                        ... do not roll bags fool
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Who, show me, is proud of the betrayal of Odessa, Nikolaev, Kherson, Yekaterinoslav, Verny and so on and so forth to the "Ukrainians"?

                        It is known who are anti-communists. They are democrats, liberals, separatists, "broad Ukrainians", etc. Those. all yours. It was they who carried out the betrayal in 1991.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        They all knew, I will repeat ONCE AGAIN: about the many millions who died of hunger, and about the many millions of peasants exiled WITHOUT COURT, and about hundreds of thousands of those shot in one year, and about many millions in the camps, and the plans of KI.

                        And at the same time, their government did not even mention the risk of some kind of "occupation", but had a big problem: "the attractiveness of Soviet Ukraine and Soviet Belarus to the population of the Polish outskirts" (Z. Zalussky). And, as it turned out, not without reason - after September 17.09.1939, XNUMX, their compatriots kissed Soviet tanks, and Polish officers begged for themselves from the Red Army soldiers for increased security. From their own.
                      27. Olgovich
                        Olgovich 24 December 2020 08: 04
                        0
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        don't toss bags

                        Those. understand, but it and do lol
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        It is known who are anti-communists. They are democrats, liberals, separatists, "broad Ukrainians", etc. Those. all yours. It was they who carried out the betrayal in 1991.

                        The communists cut this Russia to the Ukrainians. You are proud of it.
                        1991 made by communists and made from 1917
                        Quote: Sahar Medovich
                        And at the same time, their government did not even mention the risk of some kind of "occupation", but had a big problem: "the attractiveness of Soviet Ukraine and Soviet Belarus to the population of the Polish outskirts" (Z. Zalussky). And, as it turned out, not without reason - after September 17.09.1939, XNUMX, their compatriots kissed Soviet tanks, and Polish officers begged for themselves from the Red Army soldiers for increased security. From their own.

                        What is this relation to ... Polish lands? belay
                      28. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 24 December 2020 10: 23
                        0
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        Those. understand

                        Of course I understand! You are all on one saltyk.
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        1991 made by communists and made from 1917

                        And since what time was it 1917? And by whom?
                        Quote: Olgovich
                        What is this relation to ... Polish lands?

                        The most direct.
  • strannik1985
    strannik1985 20 December 2020 11: 34
    0
    forgotten ALWAYS

    The USSR, with all its desire, cannot split in two to organize two fronts at once, the French and the British demonstrated their position throughout the 30s, all the time while the Reich did not represent anything of itself, not that they did not touch - "fed" - Sudetenland, Austria , Czechoslovakia, Poland. It is naive to think that the politicians of all countries - guarantors of the Versailles agreements suddenly lost their memory and forgot the sad experience of the First World War. A simple question - what is the benefit of England, France, the United States in strengthening Germany?
  • strannik1985
    strannik1985 18 December 2020 09: 41
    +1
    I repeat again

    So the USSR also has less forces, the TKs were disbanded as a result of the Polish campaign, in December 1939 - April 1940 they form from 8 to 4 motorized, 3 motorized rifle divisions (in the ZabVO) and 7 cavalry corps remain. There are dozens of tanks in the TBR, the rest went in bulk to the Leningrad Military District, the level of training of the infantry based on the results of the SFV needs to be urgently improved. We will not be able to defeat the Wehrmacht quickly (with a consistent cascade of offensive operations as in 1944-1945, before the "allies" swing), a protracted war with the prospect of forming an Anglo - Franco - German front in 1943 - 1944. And how is that better?
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 18 December 2020 10: 39
      -4
      Quote: strannik1985
      So the USSR has less strength,

      for interest. And Hitler has two times less. Plus a whole powerful France to the USSR.
      Quote: strannik1985
      with the prospect of the formation of the Anglo - Franco - German front in the year 1943 - 1944

      Not for that Hitler went to france
      Quote: strannik1985
      And how is it better?

      See 1914 and 1941
      1. strannik1985
        strannik1985 18 December 2020 13: 20
        +2
        for interest.

        Organization and level of training - at times.
        not for that Hitler

        Hitler hasn’t gone anywhere yet, the Reich is digesting Poland, Belgium’s neutrality is not violated, the “allies” are buying soccer balls for the match with the Germans.
        See 1914 and 1941

        Well, in 1914 between Russia and France there is a full-fledged agreement on the provision of military assistance, the Kaiser attacked France (while the frogs have already tried to make a feint with their ears, but the Germans did not fall for it). Are you suggesting to wait on May 10?
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 18 December 2020 18: 36
          +1
          Quote: strannik1985
          Organization and level of training - at times.

          Organization and level of training 40-th the year from the 41st was no different. The army has become larger, accordingly, a mess too
          Quote: strannik1985
          Hitler hasn’t gone anywhere yet, the Reich is digesting Poland, Belgium’s neutrality is not violated, the “allies” are buying soccer balls for the match with the Germans.

          Let's go. And what is the "common" front?
          Quote: strannik1985
          Well, in 1914 between Russia and France there is a full-fledged agreement on the provision of military assistance, the Kaiser attacked France (while the frogs have already tried to make a feint with their ears, but the Germans did not fall for it). Are you suggesting to wait on May 10?

          Yes.
          1. strannik1985
            strannik1985 20 December 2020 11: 29
            0
            Organization and level of training

            It also differs very much, the 98th SD in a strong state, ready to fight immediately, and not 2-3 weeks later M +, mechanized corps appeared in the spacecraft, albeit defective, but more or less independent mobile units
            Go

            Let's assume. And what prevents the "allies" from leaving everything as it is?
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 20 December 2020 12: 52
              0
              Quote: strannik1985
              Different and very much

              nothing: see Act TV-nothing has changed by 41g.

              But the international situation has deteriorated at times, and Germany at times has strengthened
              Quote: strannik1985
              Let's assume. And what prevents the "allies" from leaving everything as it is?

              In the sense of? He went to France-England, what is the "union" between them?
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 18 December 2020 12: 10
    +6
    Quote: Olgovich
    But back in May 1940, everything was absolutely different and there was still a whole France and full-blooded England in the West ...

    And in the USSR, according to the results of the won by the SPF, the "first red officer" - the unsinkable Kliment Efremovich Voroshilov - lost his post. For the complete collapse of the area entrusted to him - the Red Army.
    The most important thing is that, according to the results of the SPF, the country's leadership finally saw the real state of its army. The IVS speech at a meeting following the results of this war boiled down to the fact that, of course, we won, but the USSR does not have a modern army.
    What the Red Army was like in the spring of 1940 is indicated in the "Act of the transfer of the People's Commissariat of Defense".
    The unpreparedness of the army was additionally superimposed by the consequences of SPF. Tank brigades of the same KOVO were taken apart for the formation of consolidated units until they completely lost their combat effectiveness. And the equipment came back extremely slowly - the factories could not cope with repairs.
    Plus the consequences of the 1939 reform, with the transition from troichats to a personnel-cadre system - it is planned to provide new divisions with weapons and equipment by the end of 1940.
    Alas, in the summer of 1940 the USSR had nothing to wage a big war with.
    1. Olgovich
      Olgovich 18 December 2020 13: 13
      -5
      Quote: Alexey RA
      Alas, in the summer of 1940 the USSR had nothing to wage a big war

      Yeah, but with an opponent who has become TWO times stronger (in a year), without Western front, in 1941 .... "it was".

      Better to fight this "nothing" in May 1940 than "almost nothing" in June 1941.
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 18 December 2020 17: 51
        0
        Quote: Olgovich
        Better to fight this "nothing" in May 1940

        Ok, and old Ironside sends the radio to the Admiralty: "Uncle Joe turned out to be a good guy and a real athlete! Cancel Operation Pike!" laughing
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 19 December 2020 12: 30
          0
          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Cancel Pike operation! "


          As if she ... was belay
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 19 December 2020 12: 25
        0
        Quote: Olgovich
        Better to fight this "nothing" in May 1940 than "almost nothing" in June 1941.

        Well, let's get started. So, the Red Army decided to fight in May 1940.
        Suddenly:
        1. By the time of the acceptance and surrender of the People’s Commissariat of Defense, there was no operational plan of war, operational plans, both general and private, were not developed and lack The General Staff has no data on the state of covering the borders. The decisions of the military councils of the districts, armies and the front on this issue are unknown to the General Staff.
        2. The management of the operational training of the highest command personnel and staffs was expressed only in planning it and giving directives. Since 1938, the People's Commissar of Defense and the General Staff themselves did not conduct classes with the highest command personnel and staffs. There was almost no control over operational training in the districts. The People's Commissariat of Defense is lagging behind in the development of questions of the operational use of troops in modern warfare.

        Already happy - the General Staff does not know what is going on in the troops and how these troops are going to fight. At the same time, the General Staff has no plans of its own. The top commanding officers of modern war do not know and are not ready for it.
        1. The People’s Commissariat does not have an accurately established actual strength of the Red Army at the time of admission. Accounting personnel due to the fault of the Main Directorate of the Red Army is in an extremely neglected state.

        Full polar fur foxes.
        1. Due to the war and significant redeployed troops, the mobilization plan was violated. The People's Commissariat of Defense has no new mobilization plan.
        Regulatory mobilization activities are not completed by development.

        Better. That is, the mobilization of the Red Army will have to be carried out by typing, interrogating the RVK and divisions - how many and what personnel one can give, and how many others need. Great scheme for a big war, especially when you consider that:
        Among the reserves liable for military service are 3 untrained people. Their NPO has no training plan.

        Frames of the future war:
        By the time the People’s Commissariat of Defense was received, the army had a significant lack of staff, especially in the infantry, reaching 21% of the nominal strength as of May 1, 1940.
        It was established that annual graduations from military schools did not provide the necessary reserves for the growth of the army and the formation of reserves.
        The quality of the training of command personnel is low, especially in the platoon-company unit, in which up to 68% have only short-term 6-month training for the course of junior lieutenant.

        Infantry:
        b) the infantry is trained weaker than all other branches of the army;
        c) the accumulation of prepared stock of infantry is not enough;
        d) the infantry command staff is poorly prepared and has a large shortage;

        But the infantry is the basis of what you have to fight with. Because the BTV in the spring of 1940 had not yet recovered from the consequences of the SPV:
        Today, in the Kiev Military District, there are 14 tanks in four tank brigades. The war sold them apart, tank brigades scattered. I have to say bluntly, if there will be mobilization now, our KOVO brigades are not ready.
        © Pavlov, head of the Red Army ABTU.
        And like a cherry on a cake:
        The organization of intelligence is one of the weakest areas in the work of the People’s Commissariat of Defense. There is no organized intelligence and systematic receipt of data on foreign armies.
        © Act on the acceptance of the USSR People's Commissariat of Defense Timoshenko S.K. from Voroshilov K.E.
        1. Olgovich
          Olgovich 19 December 2020 12: 41
          +1
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Act on the admission of the People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR

          The act is well known - a mess was going on in the army, although, judging by the purges approved by many here, everything should have worked like clockwork.

          By the way, the question is: WHY was the army of such a "successful" government in such a condition?

          Five year old The country's Wehrmacht, under heavy sanctions and without an army, looked much better.

          And yes-WHAT crucially changed in 1 year to 41g? And practically nothing.
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 19 December 2020 12: 57
            0
            Quote: Olgovich
            By the way, the question is: WHY was the army of such a "successful" government in such a state?

            And this is a typical picture of a peacetime army, which was suddenly tested by a small war.
            If "Finland" happened in France, we would read something similar from her army.
            Quote: Olgovich
            The country's five-year-old Wehrmacht, under heavy sanctions and without an army, looked much better.

            Well, if initially for a dozen years to completely score on the country's defense, turning the army into a large training center with a near-zero combat capability, then it is possible to achieve not such successes. Von Seeckt's "school for commanders" was originally created not as an army, but as a large school for officers and non-commissioned officers. And the borders of Germany were kept by Versailles. smile
            Quote: Olgovich
            And yes, WHAT has changed dramatically in 1 year to 41g? And practically nothing.

            You see, what's the matter ... we judge the state of the Red Army by 1941 - simply because we know practical results for this year. But the state of the Red Army in 1940 is assessed by us mainly according to the bravura reports from the times of Voroshilov.
            Here is a cut of the Red Army at the end of 1940. in documents:
            The other day, uv.Malysh threw another "manual for the populace in the 41st" (tm) aka "REPORT TO THE COMMISSIONER OF DEFENSE OF THE USSR MARSHAL OF THE SOVIET UNION Comrade S. Timoshenko. OF THE YEAR."

            The fat begins literally from the first pages, in the "Operational preparation" section. "Over the past 4 months, the District has carried out the following measures to train senior command personnel and staffs:" (blah blah blah a two-page list of events) and the following phrase tops it all:
            "As a result of all these activities, the operational training of senior officers has grown significantly and is rated mediocre."
            Then everything is no less beautiful.
            "Infantry.
            ...
            Conclusion: the units and formations of the district, fulfilling your requirement to co-ordinate companies and battalions, are quite ready to solve simple combat missions "
            ...
            The preparation of mortar units and subunits is mediocre, with the exception of 24 OMB, which is poorly prepared. The preparation of the 45th and 76th regiment of artillery is mediocre.
            ...
            The conducted artillery firing and viewing exercises showed that the division’s artillery of the District was prepared to perform combat missions in the main types of combat mediocre.
            ...
            The training of the regiments of the ARGK is mediocre, with the exception of 311 popes and 318 hap RGKs, whose training is poor. "
            © Ulanov
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 19 December 2020 13: 19
              0
              Quote: Alexey RA
              And this is a typical picture of a peacetime army, which was suddenly tested by a small war

              Finland also has a peacetime army in 1939: i.e. it was practically NOT there (30 thousand and a dozen PRM tanks)
              Quote: Alexey RA
              Well, if initially for a dozen years to completely score on the country's defense, turning the army into a large training center with a near-zero combat capability, then it is possible to achieve not such successes.

              Those. the absence of an army is much ... more useful for the army.

              Judging by the Timoshenko-Voroshilov act, there was no such thing as an army in the USSR

              Quote: Alexey RA
              You see, what is the matter ... we judge the state of the Red Army in 1941 - simply because we know the practical results for this year. But the state of the Red Army in 1940 is assessed by us mainly by the bravura reports from the times of Voroshilov.

              belay And Act TV?

              and yes, what could have changed / changed in the army in a year? Considering what was required year?

              It's nothing.

              But the situation for us from 40 to 41 g-worsened MANY times.
            2. Cherry Nine
              Cherry Nine 19 December 2020 15: 42
              +1
              Quote: Alexey RA
              And this is a typical picture of a peacetime army, which was suddenly tested by a small war

              Yeah, I can see:
              The People's Commissariat handed over: Helmut von Moltke (signed).
              The People's Commissariat adopted: Alfred von Schlieffen (signed).

              There, however, there was von Waldersee between them, but not the essence
              Quote: Alexey RA
              suddenly checked out by a small war

              Suddenly? You have the Winter War on the Soviet side, is it something like the 67th year, or what? Type rr-times and the Jews are already in Moscow, in the Writers' Union? So they have been shooting near the borders of the USSR since at least 38, no?
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 18 December 2020 08: 30
    +1
    Hopes for active action by the "fifth column" (which Stalin crushed before the war), the uprising of the military, the uprising of collective farmers-peasants and national separatists.

    Joseph cleaned out the country, and about the really preparing rebellion of the "innocently repressed" military is well written in Schellenberg's memoirs - "Labyrinth".
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 18 December 2020 17: 33
      +1
      Wow, how many descendants of the "innocently repressed" were formed on the VO - as many as 4!
  • evgen1221
    evgen1221 18 December 2020 08: 46
    -4
    Barbarossa once again proves the stupidity of the generals in strategic terms. We are at war with England, we know that the Suez is a clue to victory, but we are persistently gathering a bunch of forces in the Russian direction. Yes, such forces would have reached the suet by swimming and easily taken away, the logistics at that time were favorable.
  • tihonmarine
    tihonmarine 18 December 2020 08: 58
    0
    England gave the world the theory of racism, social Darwinism, was the first to create concentration camps, used the methods of terror and genocide to suppress any resistance of "subhumans".

    This is what "mom Britain" and son "Uncle Sam" are doing now. This is called "Western civilization", and where there was a truly popular power, this is totalitarianism, terror.
    Were beasts, and remain beasts. (do not confuse the human beast with harmless animals).
  • Doccor18
    Doccor18 18 December 2020 09: 23
    +1
    Even those generals who previously wanted to overthrow Hitler, fearing a military and political catastrophe in a clash with France and England, were forced to admit the success of the Fuhrer. They began to regard the German war machine as invincible.

    I dare not agree with the author. There were jubilation. But the brains of the German generals were all right.
    The vast majority realized that a hike to the "endless east" would not be an easy walk. However, ambition and careerism often prevailed ... Only one corporal believed in the "invincibility" of the Wehrmacht ...
  • BAI
    BAI 18 December 2020 10: 26
    +3
    in France, 3 thousand aircraft and about 5 thousand tanks were captured.

    And how many units of this technique were used in the Wehrmacht in general, and against the Red Army in particular?
    Halder's Diary:
    Record from 09.10.41/9.10.1941/16: information about the use of captured tanks at the front as of 5/42/20. In Russia: Army Group South - 23 tanks (5 more tanks will be transferred there in October); Army Group Center - XNUMX tanks (another XNUMX tanks will be sent to the front in October and November); Army Group North - XNUMX tanks (XNUMX more tanks will be sent to the front in October).

    The Wehrmacht had not yet used Soviet tanks at this time, i.e. we are talking about French. Czech tanks were considered their own.
    An insane amount that radically changes the course of the war.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 18 December 2020 18: 18
      0
      Quote: BAI
      An insane amount that radically changes the course of the war.

      Well, the magic of numbers) 5 thousand tanks! For an inexperienced person, this should make an unprecedented impression.
  • Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 18 December 2020 10: 44
    +1
    In the First World War, these were mostly peasants with a small splash of intelligentsia and military personnel. During the Second World War - well-educated workers, collective farmers, intelligentsia, military men with vast war experience.

    again a team of authors with the common nickname "Samsonov" sells their wretched poster matrix on VO.
    The Great Patriotic War was the same "peasant war" as the imperialist one - the rural population was twice as large as the urban one, two-thirds of the population lived in the countryside. "Well educated"? The level of education was extremely low, and there is no need to lie to the general "well-educated". Well, of course, the data of the Universal Education for 1939, which, they say, is illiterate total a fifth of the population, are a source of pride for the successes of the Soviet government and of Comrade Stalin personally, but that's just Criteria of the universal education scribes were, to put it mildly, original - a sign literacy the ability to read syllables and write their last name in their native or Russian language was considered. There were only 1000 per 77 people with secondary and seven-year education. And 6 people with higher. In the Red Army, personnel hunger came around in 1941-1942 - on January 1, 1941. only 7% of the commanding officers of the army and navy had a higher military education, and only half had a secondary education. Industry and science are generally a separate topic.
    1. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 18 December 2020 14: 35
      +5
      Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      was the same "peasant war" as the imperialist - the rural population was twice as large as the urban, two-thirds of the population lived in the countryside. "Well educated"? The level of education was extremely low,

      However, the Germans are very interested researchers, they said:
      Before the war:
      "The soldiers of the Red Army are generally staunch, unpretentious, diligent and brave. This is no longer the" gallant man "we knew in the world war. His cultural level has become much higher, his general outlook has expanded and his technical literacy has increased. , the influx of the rural population into the city and the development of industry. The elimination of shortcomings in the training of troops can in the course of time ensure the education of an energetic soldier who owns the technical means of war. " (Bulletin of the German General Staff "The Armed Forces of the Soviet Union as of January 1, 1941).
      During the war:
      "... the current Soviet school education is much better than it was during the tsarist era. Comparison of the skill of Russian and German agricultural workers is often in favor of the Soviet"
      - "Many believe that Bolshevism brought the Russians out of their narrow-mindedness" (Analytical note of the Gestapo, August 1942)
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 18 December 2020 16: 04
        +1
        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        "Many believe that Bolshevism brought the Russians out of their narrow-mindedness" (Policy Memo by the Gestapo, August 1942)

        Of course, the plebs live in a matrix imposed by propaganda. Faced offline with the Ostarbeiters, the burghers were just unpleasantly surprised by the inconsistency of propaganda clichés with reality - instead of the expected cattle-like Mongoloids, they saw easy-to-learn, quick-witted people with sufficient potential for either agricultural or machinery. But with all this, all the same, the Slavs remained for the burghers racially "inferior" - otherwise, all the comfortable racial rubbish would collapse, giving indulgences to the capture of Lebensraum. So, all these complimentary "insights" of the burghers mean little - the Slavs for them remained the same as, say, the Hottentots were for the daddy of the future Field Marshal Goering when he (daddy) was a colonial commissar in Africa at the beginning of the 20th century - "Negro , dragging out his existence in childish absurdity and stupid immediacy, cannot stand on the same level with a civilized person and be useful for serious work. "
        1. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 19 December 2020 05: 45
          0
          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          at the same time, all the same, the Slavs remained for the burghers "inferior" in racial terms

          But they ceased to be militarily inferior. First of all, because of intelligence and education.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 18 December 2020 10: 47
    +2
    The military-political leadership has done a tremendous job of mobilizing the resources of Germany itself and the occupied, dependent territories for the war, but only within the framework of the blitzkrieg. That is, there were no reserves in Germany in case of Plan B - a possible long war of attrition /

    This is not a bug, this is a feature. ©
    In the sense that Adolf, like hell, ran away from the concept of a long war of attrition - simply because the Reich had already tried to wage it once. And he lost.
    Therefore, the war should be short, the victory should be as fast as possible, with the minimum losses of the "superior race" - and all planning should be carried out on this basis. Otherwise, there is a great chance again to get meat grinders like Verdun and Somma and other joys, including the intervention of Uncle Sam from across the ocean. And "stab in the back" from their own people, exhausted by the war.
  • Operator
    Operator 18 December 2020 10: 50
    -4
    Hitler's mistake was the decision to attack the USSR first, and only then deal with Britain. As a result, in the rear of the Third Reich was the European bridgehead of the United States.

    This decision was based, among other things, on Hitler's personal motive - the British sniper Henry Tendy on September 28, 1918, near Ypres, took pity on a wounded German soldier walking along no-man's land. The soldier turned out to be Adolf Hitler, who noticed the action of the British sniper, remembered it and recognized it in a picture taken from a photograph of 1914. After the war, Hitler bought the painting and with gratitude recalled this episode in a conversation with Chamberlain in 1938.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 18 December 2020 11: 50
      +6
      The only moment that is not taken into account in this urban legend is that since September 10, Hitler was in Germany on a three-week vacation.
      After the vacation, he returned to his unit, where on October 15, 1918 he was gassed from an exploding shell and ended up in a field hospital in Bavaria.
      Hitler did not buy the painting, he was presented with a copy of it.
      1. Operator
        Operator 18 December 2020 12: 43
        -5
        What difference does it make who and when from the British side took part in this situation - the main thing is that Hitler was personally a participant.
  • Cure72
    Cure72 18 December 2020 11: 13
    +4
    To be continued ...

    Pot, don't boil .... Please
  • Vladimir Volk
    Vladimir Volk 18 December 2020 13: 28
    -5
    So, the Georgian trick, the civilian shpak, did not succeed. Having pushed Hitler to the West, Dzhugashvili thought that he would get bogged down there, and the USSR again quietly, blackmailing, would take the damned Bosphorus with the Dardanelles and Romania.
    To get exactly the opposite, having gained trophies, capturing the Western military-industrial complex, the Nazis calmly turned around and hit the Stalinists, who were not preparing for defense at all, but only drove their troops into the "Belostotsky ledges" for their attack, where it was easy to surround and destroy them.
  • svoit
    svoit 18 December 2020 14: 29
    -1
    After that London would have to ask for peace.
    no need to go so far, it is enough to scare England a little and she would agree to a truce, at least, well, America intervened (Jews from Germany told about the horrors of nizism during the time, they deprived of their underwear), and to fight at someone else's expense (they got more than two times more than the USSR) they always agree, and if they also use someone else's hands, that is, the hands of their dominions, then in general you can fight forever.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 18 December 2020 16: 11
      +1
      Quote: svoit
      enough to scare England a little and she would agree to a truce

      why didn’t agree? Little scared?
    2. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 18 December 2020 18: 03
      0
      Quote: svoit
      she would agree to a truce

      For a truce or not, but she agreed to something. The documents of the negotiations with Hess are forever classified! negative
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 18 December 2020 18: 14
        0
        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        For a truce or not, but she agreed to something. The documents of the negotiations with Hess are forever classified!

        right - for crypto historians is this not a reason to dream up?
        1. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 19 December 2020 05: 30
          0
          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          for crypto historians, is this not a reason to dream up?

          And for historians - to speculate. wink
  • anjey
    anjey 18 December 2020 15: 31
    +2
    So, in November 1938, the German industrialist A. Rechberg wrote in a memorandum to the head of the imperial chancellery:
    “The object of expansion for Germany appears to be the space of Russia, which ... possesses innumerable riches in the field of agriculture and untapped raw materials. If we want the expansion into this space to ensure Germany's transformation into an empire with a sufficient agrarian and raw material base for its needs, then it is necessary to seize at least the entire Russian territory up to the Urals exclusively, where huge ore resources lie. "
    And in the West, the electorate has long been brainwashed about the sick lone dictator Hitler laughing .
    It was not only an ideological expansion, but also more economic and, as they say now, geopolitical. Hitler was nominated and directed by industrialists and financiers and not only Germany ...
  • Mustachioed Georgian
    Mustachioed Georgian 18 December 2020 15: 46
    0
    I have a son, he knew Hitler 15 in the photo, he did not confuse him with Keitel.
  • voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 18 December 2020 18: 32
    0
    "Italy failed the war with Greece and England" ////
    ----
    The author forgot to mention that Germany itself failed the war with England.
    The Luftwaffe lost 1/3 of its bombers and 1/4 of its fighters.
    In June 1941, Germany had fewer bombers than in March 1940.
    The German surface fleet also suffered heavy losses.
  • svoit
    svoit 18 December 2020 19: 02
    0
    Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    why didn’t agree? Little scared?

    So I wrote everything, America offered to fight at her expense and by proxy, it was impossible to refuse.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • nnz226
    nnz226 18 December 2020 21: 55
    +2
    Well, about the "well-educated" soldiers and commanders of the Red Army in 1941 - a clear exaggeration. Most of them had 4 classes of education. Kohl a good SVT rifle did not find understanding, and the bulk of the mass had to be armed again with "mosinki" (talk about the high cost of SVT - I know, but before the war there were more than a million of them) Again, there is a problem with technical personnel - driver mechanics, how many tanks have they ruined? Repair shops in tank corps - the cat cried. There weren't enough drivers! And there are a lot of such shortcomings precisely because of the low education of the bulk of the Red Army soldiers!
    1. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 19 December 2020 06: 01
      0
      Quote: nnz226
      about the "well-educated" soldiers and commanders of the Red Army in 1941 - a clear exaggeration. Most of them had 4 classes of education.

      It's about comparing with the soldiers and commanders of WW1. There are even 4 classes - very good.
      But the point is not only in the actual school education: "Our ordinary collective farmer, in comparison with the Italian peasants, looks like an academician. That's when I fully appreciated the significance of political studies, political talks, political circles, all kinds of lectures held in our country everywhere" (A. Gulin)
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 19 December 2020 12: 32
        0
        Quote: Sahar Medovich
        But the point is not only in the actual school education: "Our ordinary collective farmer, in comparison with the Italian peasants, looks like an academician. That's when I fully appreciated the significance of political studies, political talks, political circles, all kinds of lectures held in our country everywhere" (A. Gulin)

        Uh-huh ... political literacy is our everything. Especially when the fighter knows the decisions of the party congress, but does not know the Charter.
        And then in the order for the SZN they write that Sergeant So-and-so was sent to reconnaissance, crawled to the enemy dugout and, not knowing what to do next, crawled back (a real case).
        1. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 19 December 2020 14: 55
          0
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Uh-huh ... political literacy is our everything. Especially when the fighter knows the decisions of the party congress, but does not know the Charter.

          I wonder what the Germans thought about this when they introduced their "commissars" after Stalingrad?
  • Andrey Krasnoyarsky
    Andrey Krasnoyarsky 19 December 2020 13: 15
    0
    Unfortunately, the ideas of the possessed Fuhrer have not sunk into oblivion. There are now many admirers in the West of his plans for Russia.
  • hjvtp1966
    hjvtp1966 19 December 2020 16: 17
    0
    Quote: Sugar Honeyovich
    Quote: Olgovich
    see REAL Story

    I'm talking about her.
    Quote: Olgovich
    all for MONEY, business as usual

    Yes, for the money. But - not a blockade and not a sanction that could be.
    Quote: Olgovich
    The same policy of the USSR in 1940

    As with us, so are we. They left us no other choice.
    Quote: Olgovich
    forgotten ALWAYS.

    Not the USSR.

    WE!? At that time, everything was decided by the cunning Georgian alone. The entourage just looked into his mouth, as if not to say something out of place and disappear into the darkness. Just imagine that someone objected to him. Would you rather give an example?
    1. Sugar Honeyovich
      Sugar Honeyovich 20 December 2020 15: 04
      +1
      Quote: hjvtp1966
      At that time, everything was decided by the cunning Georgian alone. The entourage just looked into his mouth, as if not to say something out of place and disappear into the darkness.

      The very environment clearly did not know this. And, as he claims, in fact it was just the opposite.
      Quote: hjvtp1966
      Just imagine that someone objected to him. Would you rather give an example?

      This is please:
      Zhukov G.K .:
      “Participating many times in the discussion of a number of issues with Stalin in the presence of his closest circle, I had the opportunity to see disputes and altercations, to see the stubbornness shown in some issues, especially by Molotov; sometimes it came to the point that Stalin raised his voice and even left himself, while Molotov, smiling, got up from the table and remained with his point of view.
      Many of Stalin's proposals regarding strengthening the defense and arming the army met with resistance and objections.
      It is wrong to imagine that no one from Stalin's entourage ever argued with him on state and economic issues. "

      I.A. Benediktov:
      “Over the many years of work, I was more than once convinced that formal considerations or personal ambitions meant little to him. Stalin usually proceeded from the interests of the case and, if required, did not hesitate to change the decisions already made, not at all caring about what they thought or said about it
      Contrary to popular belief, all questions in those years, including those related to the displacement of prominent party, state and military leaders, were decided in the Politburo collectively. At the Politburo meetings themselves, disputes and discussions often flared up, different, often opposing opinions were expressed within, naturally, the cornerstones of party attitudes. There was no tacit and uncomplaining unanimity - Stalin and his associates hated it. I say this with good reason, because I attended the Politburo meetings many times.
      At the end of the 30s, the collegiality in the work of the Politburo manifested itself quite clearly: there were cases, although quite rare, when Stalin was in the minority during the voting. This was especially true of the repressions, where Stalin, as I said, took a "softer" position than a number of other members of the Politburo. "

      Isakov I.S .:
      "Despite my objections, reporting to Stalin, he said that everything is fine, everything is in order, and formally he was right ... Then I asked for the floor and, getting excited, said about this railway line, that it did not fit into any gate that we will not build enterprises in this way and that in general this overlay of railway tracks on highways, and the only thing, is nothing more than sabotage. Then "sabotage" referred to the terminology, one might say, fashionable, which was in use, and I used exactly this expression.
      Stalin listened to the end, then said calmly: “You have analyzed the state of affairs quite convincingly, comrade (he gave my name). Indeed, objectively speaking, this road in the form in which it is now is nothing more than sabotage. But first of all, you need to find out who the pest is? I am a pest. I gave instructions to build this road. They told me that there was no other way out, that it would accelerate the pace, they did not report details, they reported in general terms. I agreed to speed up the pace. So the pest in this case I am "

      Grabin V.G .:
      “Once again, when I tried to object to Stalin (ONCE AGAIN! –SM) and defend the correctness of our chosen position, the usual restraint and composure betrayed him. He grabbed the back of the chair and slammed his legs against the floor. irritation and anger….
      I have never seen Stalin like this - not before, not later ...

      “They ask you to phone,” he repeated and added: “Comrade Stalin will speak with you.”
      Indeed, Stalin called. He said:
      - You're right..."
      1. hjvtp1966
        hjvtp1966 20 December 2020 15: 56
        0
        Ok, you gave examples. I got excited. I read "The weapon of victory", I could remember this example. But all the same, I think that the main thing for Stalin's entourage was the fear of causing his anger. They argued in his presence, rather among themselves. Do you really seriously think that, for example, Kalinin, whose wife has been serving time since the age of 38, could argue with Stalin. I believe that the main thing for them was the question of survival and maintaining a high position. All those who were not opportunists did not survive, and they left no memoirs. I think the few who dared to object to him felt like a mouse in the paws of a cat. With the difference that the mouse does not know what happened to the others, but they knew. There were, of course, during the war, who dared to argue with him. But these are military people who were not afraid of death. And then such a moment even became an episode of the film. Then, it seems, Rokossovsky dared to argue. And yet, Stalin in the twenties, and Stalin in the fifties, these are two big differences, over the years his paranoia increased. He was getting old.
        1. Sugar Honeyovich
          Sugar Honeyovich 20 December 2020 16: 03
          0
          Quote: hjvtp1966
          But all the same, I think that the main thing for Stalin's entourage was the fear of causing his anger.

          Can you give examples like mine as proof?
          1. hjvtp1966
            hjvtp1966 20 December 2020 16: 57
            0
            I mean, examples like yours ?! An excerpt from a memoir, where it would have been said that I understood that he was wrong, but was afraid to end up in a pit with bleach instead of his dacha outside Moscow, and therefore kept silent? Honestly, I didn't even bother to look ... laughing
            Although, offhand, I.A. Serov:
            The next day I stopped by Bulganin at 12 o'clock, at his headquarters on business. The call rang over HF, Bulganin picked up the receiver, and when he found out what Comrade Stalin was saying, he got up, hands at his sides, and began to answer.
            I have heard the following phrases. Stalin asked: "Where is Serov?" He replies: "Here, in my office," then: "Yes, there is, I listen, I listen, it will be done." And that was the end of the conversation.
            When he hung up, he sighed with relief, sat down and said: "Well, you know, Ivan Alexandrovich, every time Comrade Stalin calls, my shirt is wet, touch it." I touched Bulganin's really wet shirt and laughed.
            And this is how the career of an ordinary lackey, the head of the economic department, Lieutenant Colonel Ivan Fedoseyev, ended:
            I.A. Serov (then - deputy head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs):
            I phoned Comrade Stalin, came to the Kremlin and reported to him that it was possible to finish the case and bring Fedoseyev to criminal responsibility, tried by a military tribunal for abuse of office. He somehow seemed to me to be dissatisfied with my conclusion and said: “I think he is an Anglo-American spy. The British could have recruited him when we were at the Potsdam conference in 1945. That's where he was recruited. Therefore, he spied on and eavesdropped, and then here transmitted this data to the Americans. After all, he admitted that he had read the telegrams. So the Americans and the British knew our secrets. You interrogate him again and beat him, he is a coward and confesses. " At the end of these instructions, I asked if I could bring in one reliable employee for interrogations. T. Stalin agreed. I left. When I arrived at my place, I immediately wrote down these instructions.
            1. Nobody instructed him to re-read the papers, he did it on his own. His job is to pick up torn pieces of paper and burn them. A.N. did not instruct him to check the testimony of Poskrebyshev.
            2. In general, he is a scoundrel. I'm pretty sure he's an agent and sent in by someone to poison us. He poisoned Zhdanov and me last year. We suffered from terrible diarrhea. And this year 12 security officers were ill.
            3. He must be interrogated hard, he is a coward, he should be stuffed properly.
            4. It is necessary to organize intra-chamber work.
            5. Warn, let him confess, then <inaudible>
            As a result: Under torture, already in the MGB, Fedoseev admitted that he had been recruited by General Vlasik in order to poison Stalin. According to Vlasik himself, after this testimony, Stalin personally interrogated Fedoseev again, during interrogation Fedoseev confirmed that he had slandered Vlasik, and Stalin believed - Vlasik was not arrested at that moment, terrorism did not appear in Fedoseev's charges.
            Well, the suspicious grandfather decided that his lackey was poking his nose for a reason and: on April 18, 1950, he was sentenced to death by the Military Collegium of the Supreme Court (VK VS) of the USSR. Shot on the same day.
            Far from the thought that everyone around him was cowards. But it is one thing to die with honor in battle, and another to perish in the basement, slandered.
            1. Sugar Honeyovich
              Sugar Honeyovich 21 December 2020 07: 36
              0
              Two examples and none of them says: "I understood that he was wrong, but I was afraid to end up in a pit with bleach." The same Serov himself says that he has repeatedly expressed his true opinion to Stalin and. used to provoke his displeasure.
              And as for "The environment just looked into his mouth, as if not to say something out of place" is not necessary to speak in principle.
              That is, you have an opinion, but there is no evidence for it? Which was required (sorry for the tautology) to prove. hi
              1. hjvtp1966
                hjvtp1966 21 December 2020 09: 46
                0
                If this isn't proof, then I really don't know how to prove it to you. Somewhere from the early thirties, Stalin was simply feared. Of course, like a dragon, he didn't immediately swallow anyone he was dissatisfied with. But they were mortally afraid of him, and this is obvious. The very mechanism of moving from the tops to the dungeons looked like in any court. As soon as the leader expressed dissatisfaction with someone, the position of this courtier became shaky, other courtiers began to "peck" him in order to take his place closer to the throne .. And then how lucky - if the next campaign to expose enemies, then arrest and fast execution. If not, disgrace or deadline. Probably, Bulganin, all sweaty in conversation with the IVS, thinking how to help the Motherland. laughing

                "After the conviction of those arrested by the court or by the" troika ", the decisions of these bodies were carried out":
                Sentenced to be shot, they were shot in a field, at night 18 km. From Tbilisi, near the village of Soganlugi, 8 km. From him. They were shot by the head of the prison, the officers on duty. They usually shot 20, 40 people, and sometimes even 100. Some of the arrested shouted during their execution "Long live Lenin and Stalin", "Long live communism." Some of those arrested scolded the investigators who were investigating their case ... ”These are also stubborn, aren't they?
                1. Sugar Honeyovich
                  Sugar Honeyovich 21 December 2020 15: 27
                  0
                  Quote: hjvtp1966
                  I really don't know how to prove to you

                  I suggested: give, like me, the testimonies of participants, eyewitnesses of the events. Who would say: "We did not dare to say a word across to Stalin, he was the only one who decided everything, did not ask anyone, and whoever tried to" dare to have their own judgment "went to the dungeon."
                  Contemporaries - both about themselves and about others, said that they did not argue with Stalin, but lied in his eyes. And nothing. And then, you see, Bulganin was sweating. According to Serov ...
                  1. hjvtp1966
                    hjvtp1966 21 December 2020 20: 37
                    0
                    I will not arrange a seance for you with tortured and executed people. And so already Sapienti sat. You would have made fun of their words.
                    Here's to you about the fate of one honest man: During the debate on Yezhov's report, the People's Commissar sharply criticized the activities of the NKVD
                    Healthcare of the RSFSR G.N. Kaminsky. He objected to the extension of emergency powers
                    NKVD and against sanctioning new arrests of members and candidates for members of the Central Committee. "That's how we
                    we will shoot the whole party, ”Kaminsky said. They say that Stalin remarked to this: “Did you accidentally
                    not friends with these enemies? " To which Kaminsky allegedly replied: "No, they are not friends at all." "Well then,
                    it means that you are the same field with them, ”Stalin threw in.
                    Can you guess about the fate of Grigory Naumovich?

                    And then: However, despite such harsh remarks by Stalin, Kaminsky was supported by I.A. Pyatnitsky
                    (Iosel Tarshis), head of the political and administrative department of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b), who was for a long time the secretary of the Comintern. Pyatnitsky's speech was even sharper. He demanded
                    the creation of a special commission to check and limit the activities of the NKVD. Stalin tried
                    stop the wave of criticism. After Pyatnitsky's speech, a break was announced. At Stalin's request, Molotov, Voroshilov and Kaganovich talked to Pyatnitsky. The latter, referring to Stalin, told Pyatnitsky that “Stalin believes in him as a man and a Bolshevik and appreciates him as an unsurpassed organizer”, that “if he takes his statement back, then in this case it will be forgotten and will never be remembered ". However, Pyatnitsky was adamant.
                    Seriously Osip Aronovich upset the leader. The head of the Lefortovo prison shows that during this time Pyatnitsky was subjected to 220 hours of interrogation with the use of physical measures ”[6]. After a year of torture, he never testified against himself [6] [7]. On July 28, 1938, he was sentenced by the Military Collegium of the Supreme Court of the USSR to capital punishment. He was shot on July 29, 1938 [4].
                    Unfortunately, Osip Aronovich did not leave his memoirs for some reason, otherwise I would quote you the quote as you wanted.
                    You will sweat here, perhaps ... As for the objectors, I have already cited a quote from I. Schwartz.
                    1. Sugar Honeyovich
                      Sugar Honeyovich 22 December 2020 16: 26
                      0
                      In the beginning you made a certain statement and asked me to refute it with examples. I have given several examples from various sources, you have recognized their authenticity. After which they quoted Schwartz, either to the village or to the city - a move clearly helpless. I asked you to give examples to prove your assertions - you generally left for another topic. You have nothing to say? Talk about the weather.
                      You have just an old tale about one great, mighty, evil uncle, by whose sole will many honest people were killed. Whereas in reality these "honest people", incl. Kaminsky, zealously exposed and destroyed "counter-revolutionaries", "enemies of the people", "exploiters of the working people", etc. etc. And Stalin of all of them, perhaps, is not yet the most bloodthirsty.
                      1. hjvtp1966
                        hjvtp1966 22 December 2020 21: 04
                        0
                        Ok, thanks for taking the time and giving examples from memories. I admitted that I got excited when I asked for examples. If you wish, you can dig up any evidence. We are adults, and we understand that after the exchange of posts, no one will believe. But I must admit that you disappointed me. I thought you can think wider. You have not seen the connection between my arguments and the testimony given. Just the smallest devils! I didn’t go into another topic, all these are links of one chain: How the IVS, step by step, instilled fear in the comrades-in-arms. They were mortally afraid of him. Who can freely express their opinion, fearing for their own life or the lives of those close to them?
                        Well, they did not see and did not see. In any case, the beliefs of others must be respected. I am open to other people's arguments and do not hesitate to admit, if not right. I can admit that the IVS, in a sense, is not the most bloodthirsty. In the end, there is no evidence that he personally shot or killed someone. Maybe he never hurt a fly in his entire life! Here is Hitler - yes! He even shot someone there in "Night of the Long Knives." And the IVS - no. But he is the initiator, inspirer and personification of mass murder, torture and arbitrariness. And the worst thing is that there were thousands and thousands of those who willingly took on the dirty work, and those who justified it all. hi
                      2. Sugar Honeyovich
                        Sugar Honeyovich 23 December 2020 07: 42
                        0
                        And here you are wrong. The fact that you are trying to stretch the connection between the repressions and “they were afraid to say a word to Stalin” I saw right away - I have known this technique for a long time. Say about me, "Well, you didn't see and didn't see" - let's say I didn't see. And those whose testimonies I gave? They directly refute your statement! Maybe they didn't see it either?
                        "If you want, you can dig up any evidence" - but it is not always possible to find genuine, competent evidence. And in such cases, many pass off their own inventions as the truth. It seems like “he is the initiator, inspirer and personification of mass killings, torture and arbitrariness. And the worst thing is that there were thousands and thousands of those who willingly took on the dirty work, and those who justified it all. ONLY is he an "initiator, inspirer"? And there is information that there were a lot of them. Lots of! From the top to the bottom. Kaminsky is one of them. Not executors, but initiators, often acting contrary to the demands of the authorities (the same Stalin).
    2. hjvtp1966
      hjvtp1966 20 December 2020 16: 11
      0
      And they objected, probably, in the following spirit:
      first minister. Your Majesty! You know that I am an honest old man, a straight old man. I speak the truth straight to my face, even if it is unpleasant. After all, I was standing here all the time, I saw how you, frankly speaking, wake up, I heard you, roughly speaking, laugh, and so on. Let me put it bluntly, your majesty ... King. Speak. You know that I am never angry with you. First Minister. Let me tell you bluntly, roughly, like an old man: you are a great man, sir!
      The naked king. Evgeny Schwartz
      1. Sugar Honeyovich
        Sugar Honeyovich 20 December 2020 16: 57
        0
        So perhaps there are examples?
  • vavilon
    vavilon 19 December 2020 16: 47
    -1
    Today's so-called Western "civilization" makes the same mistakes as pre-war Nazi Germany.
  • Diviz
    Diviz 19 December 2020 18: 37
    0
    For 1000 years it was necessary to bring the matter to mind. And you are all Mongols and Mongols.
  • Boris ⁣ Shaver
    Boris ⁣ Shaver 20 December 2020 01: 16
    0
    Berlin has already tuned in for a future compromise with England

    Compromise? Churchill recounts in his memoirs that the British government at that time tried on the role of a government in exile, ready to leave the country and drive to the states in full force (Churchill called it "diplomatically" the continuation of opposition).

    At the expense of French and other captured vehicles, the Wehrmacht command mechanized more than 90 divisions

    Trophy ones? French industry did not hesitate to fill its pockets working for Hitler. Their carmakers then received a significant boost in development, thanks to their work for the Nazis. Their apology today is largely a consequence of the then productive cooperation with the Nycists. So it was by no means only (and not so much) that the French cars obtained on the battlefield motorized the German army. It's just that the capitalists of France did not miss the opportunity to make money on the rush demand of the Nazis.
  • evgen1221
    evgen1221 4 February 2021 17: 18
    0
    What kind of garbage, the Germans considered us the main opponents for world hegimony, nonsense. Yes, they considered us a non-lesser resource base, and an ear of clay was not born from understanding the power of the union. Their whole idea was to develop at the expense of the resources of the union and later figure it out with England, if not at all make friends soon after the blitzkrieg to the Urals.