Military Review

Bosporan Kingdom. On the road to greatness

259

The most ancient state on the territory of the Crimean and Taman peninsulas is the Bosporus kingdom.


Founded by Greek settlers, it existed for almost a thousand years - from the end of the XNUMXth century BC. e. and disappeared only in the VI century AD. e.

Despite the fact that the northern borders of the Black Sea at that time were considered the outskirts of the world, the Bosporus kingdom throughout its entire stories remained in the very center of the events of the ancient era. Trade partner for the Athens Maritime Union. Support of the Pontic rulers in the war with Rome. The first line of defense for the Roman emperors. And a springboard for raids among many barbarian tribes. All this is the Bosporus kingdom.

But how did it all begin? Why did the Greeks move from the fertile Mediterranean to the not so comfortable climate of the Northern Black Sea region? How did you manage to survive under the constant threat of a nomadic invasion?

We will try to answer these and other questions in this article.

The first city-states in the Bosporus and what do the Persians have to do with it


There is very little information that has come down to us about the early period of life in the Northern Black Sea region. However, what has survived allows us to reconstruct the events of those years in general terms.

The first regular settlements of Greek colonists on the Crimean and Taman peninsulas date back to the XNUMXth century BC. e. At that time, almost at the same time, several city-states emerged, among which Nympheus, Theodosia, Panticapaeum, Phanagoria and Kepa stand out.

The largest and most significant city was Panticapaeum (the area of ​​modern Kerch). Located on a significant natural elevation, it had access to the most convenient harbor of the Bosporus Cimmerian (modern Kerch Strait) and was an important strategic and defensive outpost of the region.

The inhabitants of Panticapaeum quickly realized their importance and supremacy in the area. There are suggestions that from an early time it began to be called the metropolis of all the cities of the Bosporus, which was later mentioned by the famous Greek geographer Strabo. As one of the first policies, Panticapaeum helped the arriving colonists settle in a new place and contributed to the preservation of a single cultural and religious community of the Greek settlements.

But what prompted the Greeks to abandon their homes and go to such distant lands in search of a new home? Today, many scientists agree that the most significant reason for such massive colonization was the ongoing war between the Hellenes and the Persians. The destruction of agriculture and the constant loss of life in the struggle for independence provoked a severe economic and food crisis in many city-states. Especially Persian pressure intensified after 546, when the Lydian kingdom fell. And the conquerors were able to establish a protectorate in the Greek lands. All this forced the population of the defeated cities to hit the road to the little-explored northern shores of the Black Sea.

A remarkable fact. The Greeks of that time considered the Kerch Strait to be the border between Europe and Asia, therefore, in fact, the Crimean Peninsula belonged to the European part of the world, and Taman to the Asian.

Of course, the lands of Crimea and Taman were not empty. The first colonists found themselves in the closest contact with various barbarian tribes - both agricultural and nomadic. The Crimean mountains were inhabited by the Taurians, who hunted by sea robbery and were extremely conservative towards foreigners (and in general, towards everything foreign). On the Asian side, there were more peaceful Sindi and Meots, with whom they managed to establish beneficial ties. But special attention should be paid to the relations of the Hellenes with the nomadic Scythians, since there is reason to believe that on the shores of the Kerch Strait the Greeks first of all met with them.

In general, the Scythian tribes at that time represented the most formidable force on the northern shores of the Black Sea. Information about this can be found in the "History" of Herodotus, who described in great detail the victory of the Scythian army over the Persians who invaded their lands. And also from the prominent ancient Greek historian Thucydides, who wrote that

"There is no people who by themselves could resist the Scythians, if they were united."

It is not hard to imagine that migrations of nomadic hordes could pose a serious threat to the Greek colonies. Perhaps for this reason, at the earliest stages of their formation, the Greeks did not dare to develop lands far removed from their original settlements. Modern archeology records the almost complete absence of villages in the interior regions of the Eastern Crimea. Moreover, in the excavations of the early Panticapaeum, fortifications were found erected over the traces of large fires and the remains of Scythian arrowheads.

Nevertheless, despite obvious periodic skirmishes with individual units, the Greeks still managed to maintain peaceful relations with neighboring tribes for some time. As evidenced by the very existence of a large number of surviving city-states.

The first crisis and the Archaeanactids


At the turn of the XNUMXth and XNUMXth centuries BC. e. a serious military-political crisis erupted in the steppes of the northern Black Sea region, which should probably be associated with the invasion of a new large group of nomads from the east. There is an opinion that it was them that Herodotus called "royal" Scythians, paying attention to the fact that they were the most powerful warriors of those places and all the other tribes considered their slaves.

As a consequence of the invasion of new groups of nomads, the situation for all the colonies of the Cimmerian Bosporus by 480 BC. e. has become extremely dangerous. At this time, the cessation of life in all known rural settlements of the Eastern Crimea falls. Layers of large fires are found in Panticapaeum, Myrmekia and other policies, which indicates widespread raids and mass destruction.

In this situation, some Greek city-states probably decided to confront the external threat, jointly creating a defensive and religious alliance, headed by representatives of the Archaeanaktids, living at that time in Panticapaeum.

As for the Archeanaktids themselves, it is known about them only from one message from the ancient historian Diodorus of Siculus, who wrote that they reigned in the Bosporus for 42 years (from 480 BC). Despite the paucity of data, scientists agree that at a difficult hour for the Greeks, the noble family of Archeanaktids stood at the head of the unification of the Bosporus cities.

Archaeological studies of these settlements allow us to talk about some very important actions of the Archeanaktids aimed at protecting the borders. So, in the cities of the union, defensive walls were hastily erected, which included both new masonry and parts of previously destroyed stone buildings. Often these structures did not surround the city from all sides, but were located in the most vulnerable areas and directions for attack. This indicates a high rush of construction and a certain lack of time and resources in the face of incessant raids. Nevertheless, these barriers created significant complications for the equestrian attacks of nomadic detachments.

Another important structure for maintaining the defense capability of the union was the so-called Tiritak shaft. Although disputes about the dating of its construction still do not subside, a number of scientists agree that it began to be erected during the reign of the Archeanaktids.

This defensive structure has a length of 25 kilometers, begins at the shores of the Sea of ​​Azov and ends at the settlement of Tiritaki (the area of ​​the modern port of Kamysh-Burun, Kerch). It was intended to protect rural settlements from unexpected attacks by horsemen and to prepare in time to repel an attack.

Given the scale of construction work, as well as the relatively low population of local city-states, there is reason to assume that not only Greeks, but also sedentary Scythians, who were also interested in protection from outside invasions, took part in the construction of the rampart. They (along with the civilian militia of the city-states) took part in the defense of the borders of the nascent Bosporus kingdom. The development of close contacts of the Greeks with local tribes during the Archeanaktids is evidenced by the burial mounds of barbarian noble persons, which are found in the vicinity of Panticapaeum, Nymphea, Phanagoria and Kepa.

It is worth mentioning that not all city-states have joined the newly formed union. Many city-states, including Nympheus, Theodosia and Chersonesos, preferred to pursue an independent defensive policy.

Based on historical data and archaeological excavations, some scientists believe that the defense system of the Cimmerian Bosporus at Archeanaktids was very well thought out. In cold weather, the Tiritak rampart, of course, could not completely protect the lands of the Greeks, since the nomads had the opportunity to bypass it on the ice. But it is unlikely that the winter raids could do much damage to the Bosporians. The crops were already harvested, and the population could easily hide under the protection of the city's defenses. The shaft was an effective barrier in the summer. And, most importantly, it made it possible to preserve key agricultural lands for the Greeks, which could really suffer from the invasion of nomads.

In the VI century BC, the Kerch Strait and the Sea of ​​Azov (called the Meotsky swamp) in winter froze so much that, according to the descriptions of Herodotus,

"The Scythians ... in droves cross the ice and move to the land of the Sindi."

The climate in those days was much colder than today.

How did the colonists of the Bosporus fight?


There is no direct answer to this question, but there are well-founded assumptions.

First, the Greeks preferred to fight with the phalanx. Such a military formation had already taken shape by the XNUMXth century BC. e., long before the colonization of the Northern Black Sea region. It was a linear battle formation of heavy infantry (hoplites), closed in ranks. The warriors lined up shoulder to shoulder and at the same time in ranks at the back of the head to each other. Closing their shields and armed with spears, they moved slowly towards the enemy.

Secondly, the phalanxes were extremely vulnerable from the rear. And they were not able to fight on rough terrain. For this, they were covered by detachments of cavalry and, possibly, light infantry. In the case of the Bosporan Greeks, the role of these detachments was performed by local tribes, who were excellent in riding skills and well-controlled with horses.

Third, the city-states did not have the opportunity to maintain permanent detachments of professional warriors. An average Bosporan settlement of that time could hardly have fielded more than a couple of dozen soldiers, which was clearly not enough for an open battle. But several settlements, having cooperated, could organize a serious military force. It is likely that it was this need that prompted the independent policies of the Bosporus to create a defensive alliance.

Fourthly, due to the fact that the main opponents of the Greeks of that time were not large nomadic armies, but small mobile detachments of horsemen (whose tactics consisted of unexpected attacks, robbery, and a rapid retreat from the battlefield), the actions of the phalanx in defensive battles turned out to be extremely ineffective. It seems quite logical to assume that under these conditions the Greeks, having united with the local tribes, created their own flying detachments that could meet the enemy in the open field and impose a battle. Considering that the maintenance of a horse and equipment for it was quite expensive, it can be assumed that mainly local aristocrats fought in such groups, who relatively quickly began to prefer equestrian combat formations to the traditional foot formation of the phalanx.

Thus, by the middle of the XNUMXth century BC. e. the Bosporan army was a bizarre mixture of dense battle formations traditional for the Greeks and the swift dagger detachments of the barbarian cavalry.

Summing up, we can conclude that the actions of the Archeanaktids, aimed at protecting the Hellenic lands, were very successful. Under their leadership, in a defensive alliance, the Greeks were able to defend not only their cities, but also (with the help of the Tiritak Wall) an entire region in the eastern part of the Kerch Peninsula.

The militia of the policies and the barbarian squads were able to defend the Hellenic colonies. Which subsequently led to the formation of such a political entity as the Bosporan Kingdom.
Author:
259 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Nazar
    Nazar 19 December 2020 05: 28
    +16
    It is clear that the volume of the article is limited, but I would like to know more (if possible) what the archaeologists found. The writings of Greek historians are almost the only source of information, I wonder how much they are confirmed by the results of excavations? The article mentions the arrowheads found, traces of fires, are there any photos of the finds? In Crimea, they have been digging for a long time and a lot, that they dug up the same from the period described in the article.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 05: 59
      +21
      The author is definitely a plus!
      I sincerely hope that this is the beginning of a series of articles about the states and tribal unions of the northern Black Sea region.
      Regards, Kote!
      1. PhilipKDick
        19 December 2020 08: 07
        +28
        Hello. Thank you.
        While I plan to do articles about the Bosporus kingdom itself.
        In the future, yes, I plan to write about others.
        1. kalibr
          kalibr 19 December 2020 08: 30
          +12
          Quote: PhilipKDick
          While I plan to do articles about the Bosporus kingdom itself.

          Let's! In the late 90s he wrote a book in English "Enemies of Rome in the Northern Black Sea Region" for the publishing house "Montvert", but it went bankrupt and the book did not come out. And the rule is: the book is ready - all materials are in the trash. Nothing remained and everything was forgotten ... I would like to revive the "nostalgia" on the topic ...
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 19 December 2020 12: 42
            +5
            And the rule is: the book is ready - all materials are in the trash

            Well, you give. And if the book has come and you need a second edition - expanded and supplemented? And if you need to start a monograph on articles for better coverage? Straight strategic miscalculation
            1. kalibr
              kalibr 19 December 2020 12: 47
              0
              Quote: Engineer
              Well, you give. And if the book has come and you need a second edition - expanded and supplemented? And if you need to start a monograph on articles for better coverage? Straight strategic miscalculation

              This has never happened. The books were reprinted several times, but without changes on my part.
        2. Olgovich
          Olgovich 19 December 2020 10: 47
          +5
          Quote: PhilipKDick
          While I plan to do articles about the Bosporus kingdom itself.

          Thank you, because the continuation is directly requested, and the topic is very interesting.

          Why did the Greeks move from the fertile Mediterranean to the not so comfortable climate of the Northern Black Sea region?

          Is the paradise climate of Crimea less comfortable?

          But what prompted the Greeks to abandon their homes and go to such distant lands in search of a new home? Today, many scientists agree that the most significant reason for such massive colonization was the ongoing war between the Hellenes and the Persians.

          But, judging by the history of the kingdom and the article itself, they fell out of the fire and into the fire and fought no less than before.

          Maybe the reason for colonization was the same as everywhere else: surplus population, development of trade, new markets, etc.

          The article is a definite plus.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 19 December 2020 11: 02
            +5
            Quote: Olgovich
            kingdom history

            And yes, Kerch and Feodosia are on the world list continuously populated ancient cities: people have been living in them without interruption for 1700 years!

            The same list includes Belgorod-Dnestrovsky , the ancient city of Thira, which was also founded by the Greeks from Miletus 1600 years ago.
            Since then, life in the city has not stopped.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 19 December 2020 11: 41
              +5
              Quote: Olgovich
              already 1700 years!

              2700 years old, to blame
            2. ccsr
              ccsr 19 December 2020 20: 59
              +2
              Quote: Olgovich
              And yes, Kerch and Feodosia are included in the world list of continuously inhabited ancient cities: people have been living in them without interruption for 1700 years!

              In fact, Kerch recently celebrated 26 centuries of its existence, and all this time there have always been settlements, although the capital of the Bosporus Kingdom was the most significant in its history. So do not underestimate or exaggerate the history of this city during the Greek colonization - everything is documented. True, the issue with the Cimmerians is still not clear, otherwise it may not be 26 centuries, but this city will be much longer.
          2. PhilipKDick
            19 December 2020 11: 20
            +10
            Considering that events took place about 2700 years ago, the climate was very different.
            In the article I indicated that the Sea of ​​Azov was frozen
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 19 December 2020 11: 40
              +2
              Quote: PhilipKDick
              Considering that events took place about 2700 years ago, the climate was very different.

              The climate only in the Black Sea region was different, and this ... did not concern the Mediterranean? belay
            2. ccsr
              ccsr 20 December 2020 14: 41
              +2
              Quote: PhilipKDick
              In the article I indicated that the Sea of ​​Azov was frozen

              The Sea of ​​Azov is constantly freezing even now, and even the Kerch Strait is sometimes completely covered with ice, right up to the exit from it, but usually not for long. As for the climate, historians testify that at that time on the territory of the Bosporus kingdom there were a huge number of trees and forests, right up to the foothills of the Crimean mountains. But intensive agriculture, construction, heating of houses and smoking of fish led to the fact that the eastern Crimea turned into a steppe. So the Greeks by their colonization caused some harm to the nature of the peninsula and now it is not the same as it was before the Bosporus kingdom.
              1. PhilipKDick
                21 December 2020 18: 29
                +2
                Hello. And what historians testify to the change of the peninsula by human intervention? If possible names, please. Thank you.

                Also, about the freezing of the Azov Sea.
                If this happens now, then it is extremely infrequent and not to such an extent that a group of people move freely on it.
                Although the cold is yes, it can be very unfriendly on the coast in winter.
                1. ccsr
                  ccsr 21 December 2020 18: 43
                  +2
                  Quote: PhilipKDick
                  And what historians testify to the change of the peninsula by human intervention? If possible names, please. Thank you.

                  If you are interested in this, then apparently you will have to contact at least the specialists of the Kerch Historical and Archaeological Museum. In the meantime, here's a link to the text of Herodotus, which indicates strong winters:
                  Based on our analysis of several dozen often very contradictory publications, in one way or another concerning the climatic properties of Crimea in ancient times, in the light of the approaches described above, as well as more than a thousand works, studied in the same way by V.I. Turmanina (1985, pp. 61 - 69), in order to determine the changes in the nature of the European part of the country over the last two millennia, three main climatic phases of ancient time are identified.

                  During the VIII - IV centuries. BC e. in the Mediterranean and Black Sea regions, the climate was much cooler and more humid than modern. Due to the relatively low temperatures and, accordingly, low values ​​of evaporation, the values ​​of the degrees of humidification of the territories increased. The epoch of the XNUMXth - XNUMXth centuries was especially cold and humid. BC e., celebrated by Herodotus as the century of Terrible Winters. These are practically not exaggerated impressions of a southerner about the winters of that time. The cold of the Scythian plain in the XNUMXth - XNUMXth centuries. BC e. noted and Hippocrates. In the period from 880 to 320 BC. e. the advance of glaciers was observed in the Alps. There is evidence that in the Caucasus in this, called historical, epoch, the tongues of glaciers lengthened down to 240 m. The comparatively high humidity of the climate determined the greater than now water content of rivers, temporary streams, springs, an increase in the levels of resources.

                  https://lektsii.org/3-39363.html
                  It is easy to understand that it was because of the strong winters that a huge number of trees had to be cut down, which led to a change in the landscape of Crimea.
                  1. PhilipKDick
                    21 December 2020 19: 36
                    +2
                    Apparently to me at least will have to turn to the study of Scythian culture. The landscapes overgrown with dense forest and the nomadic migrations of predominantly steppe nomads are not strongly compared. But thanks for the opinion.
                    1. ccsr
                      ccsr 21 December 2020 19: 50
                      +2
                      Quote: PhilipKDick
                      The landscapes overgrown with dense forest and the nomadic migrations of predominantly steppe nomads are not strongly compared.

                      It is easy to imagine, because there were no steppes in the current sense, but there was a subtropical climate, because the peninsula surrounded by water was watered intensively with rains and the vegetation was completely different, which is confirmed by excavations of cultural layers of that time. The museum will tell you this if you ask the guides about it. If you travel around Crimea, you will find modern plantations of coniferous trees even on the shores of the Sea of ​​Azov, far from the Crimean mountains. In Kerch, too, a large number of forest belts were planted in the 60s of the last century, and the trees have taken root perfectly. But the problem of water conservation in the soil has not yet been resolved - the forest is not very dense.
                      1. PhilipKDick
                        21 December 2020 20: 00
                        +2
                        Thank you, I will consider your words. Look for research. I still have other information on the climate of that time
                      2. burigaz2010
                        burigaz2010 21 December 2020 20: 13
                        -1
                        Good evening, excellent article, I look forward to continuing! But you, as an author, could not calm down the shpakovites? Zadolbalo continuous flood from them !!! I didn't finish reading several articles with comments precisely because of them! Why don't admins react? Skomorokhov just chase after Meehan!
      2. Proxima
        Proxima 19 December 2020 13: 28
        +2
        The history of the Bosporus kingdom is interesting not only because it is the territory of modern Russia. On the ethno-cultural space of this kingdom, the Russian Tmutarakan principality later arose, which is obscenely little studied by historians and archaeologists! As the saying goes - it's never too late to study (study)!
      3. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 19 December 2020 15: 15
        +5
        While I plan to do articles about the Bosporus kingdom itself.

        Well, the pictures from the excavations in Mirmekia and Tiritak Val should have been cited immediately after being mentioned in the text. Vika immediately gives out pictures. And so - very interesting, only a little illustrative material.
        1. ccsr
          ccsr 19 December 2020 21: 05
          +5
          Quote: Aviator_
          And so - very interesting, only a little illustrative material.

          I can recommend the site of the city of Kerch where you will find a huge amount of materials on Panticapaeum and the cities that were part of the kingdom:
          Panticapaeum
          Panticapaeum - (Greek Pantikápaion) an antique city in the Eastern Crimea (modern Kerch). Founded in the 1st half of the 6th century. BC e. immigrants from Miletus. It is possible that earlier there was an Ionian trading station (emporium). The name of the city probably goes back to Iranian roots: panticapa is a fish route, which could mean the Kerch Strait, abounding in fish, on the banks of which the city was founded. Panticapaeum quickly developed into a major city, overtaking other Greek settlements in the area. Already in the 2nd half of the 6th century. BC e. P. began to mint his own silver coin (and from the 4th century BC - and gold and copper). In the 1st half of the 5th century. BC e. around Panticapaeum united Greek cities located on both banks of the Kerch Strait (Bosporus Cimmerian), which formed the Bosporus state. Panticapaeum became its capital and the main trade, craft and cultural center. During its heyday, Panticapaeum occupied about 100 hectares. Back in the 6th century. BC e. it was surrounded by a defensive wall. The city was located on the slopes and at the foot of a rocky mountain (modern Mithridates). At the top was the acropolis with temples and public buildings. The slopes of the mountain were surrounded by artificial earthen terraces, on which houses were built, streets passed, connected by alleyways-stairs. The terraces were supported by stone retaining walls. The city had a good harbor. Stormy political events of the late 2nd and 1st centuries. BC e. (the revolt of Savmak, the capture of the city by Diophantus, the wars of Mithridates VI Eupator (See Mithridates VI Eupator)), as well as a strong earthquake in the 60s. 1 c. BC e., probably led to significant destruction in Panticapaeum and required extensive restoration work. In the 1st - 2nd centuries. n. e. Panticapaeum remained a large industrial and commercial center (archaeological excavations discovered numerous salting cisterns, wineries, pottery kilns, complexes of household pits for storing grain, etc.). In 3-4 centuries. there was a noticeable reduction in handicraft production and an increase in agricultural production. activity of the population, which was associated with the general naturalization of the economy and the collapse of slave relations. The city gradually fell into decay. In the middle of the 3rd century. Panticapaeum and the entire Bosporus became the base for pirate raids by Germanic, Dacian, and other tribes on the shores of the Black and Mediterranean Seas. At the end of the 4th century. Panticapaeum was destroyed by the Huns, only a small town survived, which existed in subsequent times. During the early Middle Ages, it was called the Bosporus. Around Panticapaeum there was a vast necropolis, which consisted of earthen graves and mounds. The best known are stone tombs of the 4th and 3rd centuries. BC e. and crypts with paintings of the first centuries A.D. e. Excavations of Panticapaeum and its necropolis began in the first half of the 1th century. (dug mostly mounds). The burial ground was widely studied at the beginning of the 19th century. (V.V.Shkorpil), a settlement - at the end of the 20th century. (I. E. Dumberg) and systematically - since 19 (V. D. Blavatsky, I. D. Marchenko).
          Lit .: Blavatsky V.D., Panticapaeum. Essay on the history of the capital of the Bosporus, M., 1964; Panticapaeum, M., 1957-62 (Materials and research on archeology of the USSR, No. 56, 103): I. Marchenko, City of Panticapaeum, Simferopol, 1974.
          D.B.Shelov.

          https://www.vkerchi.com.ua/ruska/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1269&start=0
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 19 December 2020 21: 19
            +2
            Thanks for the info. I actually made a comment to the author so that his subsequent work would be more illustrative. Photos from Wiki do not require the consent of the author, this is free access. Another thing is the photo directly from the museums.
      4. ccsr
        ccsr 19 December 2020 20: 53
        +2
        Quote: PhilipKDick
        In the future, yes, I plan to write about others.

        An excellent article, just if possible, give a list of sources, because this topic has been covered by many researchers at different times, and I would like to know whose work you use.
        1. PhilipKDick
          21 December 2020 18: 31
          +2
          Good day. Sources and literature were excluded during moderation.
          I used the works of Gaidukevich, Goroncharovsky, Vinogradov and Zubar.
  2. PhilipKDick
    19 December 2020 08: 06
    +17
    Hello. Materials from excavations and photos are limited, but available.
    Material copyright issue.
    I will try to add in the following articles.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 19 December 2020 08: 27
      +8
      Quote: PhilipKDick
      Material copyright issue.

      This is the MAIN thing you should always remember!
    2. Nazar
      Nazar 19 December 2020 09: 47
      +2
      PhilipKDick - It is clear that the photo is possible, of course. We are waiting for the continuation. yes
  3. Marine engineer
    Marine engineer 19 December 2020 08: 17
    +11
    For example, "Panskoe settlement" - about 5 km south-west of the village of Mezhvodnoye (Black Sea region, Crimea). I learned about him by chance when I was vacationing in the Crimea. The tragic story of Greek colonization, everyone died in one day (night). The attack was sudden. In photographs taken by archaeologists, the remains of people lie in one direction (fled). No one buried the dead - no one and lay there until 1969. 10 km away is the Greek settlement of Kalos Limen - no one came from there to bury neighbors and fellow tribesmen.
    1. PhilipKDick
      19 December 2020 08: 26
      +13
      There are many such settlements.
      On Utrish (Crimean nature reserve) there are traces of a settlement burned down in just a few days.

      And there was also Tanais (in the Taganrog region), which was burned for no honor. I would find data about him, but there are very few materials.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 19 December 2020 09: 08
        +11
        "Over the Tanais-river, the Scythians drink and walk,
        Eh, the Greek has lost peace, the Scythians drink and walk. "(C)

        Egor hi thanks for the quality article, we will wait for the obligatory continuation. smile
        In the second half of the seventies, I had the opportunity to work with archaeologists in ancient Chersonesos. We were engaged in underwater research in Karantinnaya and Streletskaya bays, the field there was unplowed, moreover, there was an ACC base in Stredka and there was no civilian way there. Thanks for reminding me. Eh, there were times ... drinks
        1. Marine engineer
          Marine engineer 19 December 2020 09: 38
          +6
          "Above the Tanais River, the Scythians drink and walk,
          Eh, the Greek has lost peace, the Scythians drink and walk. "(C)"

          Our comrade, our comrade a sharp knife,
          Eh, the saber is a daredevil, the Greek will not go anywhere,
          Life is his penny.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 19 December 2020 09: 47
            +9
            "My comrade akinak, horse and bow with a quiver,
            You will disappear as if you are not drunk. "(C) drinks
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 19 December 2020 10: 01
              +8
              They have erased almost the most important thing! am
              "How will you disappear d u r a k if you won't be drunk. "(c)
              1. Marine engineer
                Marine engineer 19 December 2020 10: 20
                +6
                Thanks for the "Scythian folk", cheered up.
            2. Bar1
              Bar1 19 December 2020 14: 48
              +2
              Quote: Sea Cat
              "My comrade akinak, horse and bow with a quiver,
              You will disappear as if you are not drunk. "(C) drinks

              it is interesting to look at the very word _akinak_, which has come down to us. From what source, who said so? This is a Scythian sword, and the Scythian inscriptions have not reached us, there are only some Greek repetitions left. Here are some of them and look. My assumption is that
              -akinak-a / anti (this prefix was riveted by forgers closer to our times) kinak / blade, it turns out in Russian
              and this is not the only example, for example
              -gladius-kladinets, the same is very similar.
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 15: 30
                +3
                ... -gladius-kladinets, the same is very similar.

                All khan to the kitten, I will go to the bathhouse and get drunk like a pig, maybe he will find an insight on the wild little head, which is common between the Iberian gladius and the Russian epic sword.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 19 December 2020 17: 06
                  +6
                  Vlad, "eberian gladius" is a very indecent phrase, look, for banyat.
                  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 17: 09
                    +3
                    Damn the paws are crooked, the head is dull, of course, "Iberian"!
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 19 December 2020 17: 25
                      +1
                      No matter how you write it, there is only one thing in the head for such a combination, literacy, and nothing more. laughing
        2. PhilipKDick
          19 December 2020 20: 10
          +7
          When in 2015-2016 the highway from Kerch to Shchelkino was renewed, archaeologists worked in large numbers in front of the road workers. So many people came across there that oh oh!
          I was there in transit, but from that moment I became interested in the period of the Bosporus kingdom.
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 19 December 2020 18: 41
        +3
        And Utrish does not belong to the Krasnodar Territory?
        1. PhilipKDick
          19 December 2020 19: 30
          +9
          Utrish is a bird and dendro reserve on the Azov coast of Crimea.
          It is located next to the unfinished nuclear power plant.
          Nice place, I recommend it.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 19 December 2020 19: 53
            +4
            I heard different things, but I was not.
            1. PhilipKDick
              19 December 2020 20: 07
              +6
              You may have heard about the music festival of the same name, but these are completely different things. Utrish has gorgeous views.
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 19 December 2020 20: 47
                +3
                No. Schoolchildren from the Krasnodar Territory talked about biological work.
              2. icant007
                icant007 23 December 2020 16: 33
                0
                Quote: PhilipKDick
                You may have heard about the music festival of the same name, but these are completely different things. Utrish has gorgeous views.


                I have vague doubts. Maybe you mean the Kazantip reserve.
                Utrish in Crimea - I did not find such information. I know about Utrish not far from Anapa.
                1. PhilipKDick
                  23 December 2020 17: 33
                  +2
                  You are absolutely right. I apologize.
                  When I was writing, I was working on Utrish, confused.
  4. aleksejkabanets
    aleksejkabanets 19 December 2020 08: 23
    +9
    Quote: Nazar
    It is clear that the volume of the article is limited, but I would like to know more (if possible) what the archaeologists have found.

    An interesting article, I hope for a continuation. And much more useful than "historical obscurantism" about "Great Tartary".
  5. Bar1
    Bar1 19 December 2020 09: 11
    -3
    everyone knows for sure what happened 2-2.5 thousand years ago, and what the Zmievy Shafts or the Zakamskaya zasechnaya line are, they only make assumptions, often just stupid ones.
    As for the bitter Greeks, they are Hellenes.
    -Ellada-Hellada / Gallada, i.e. Hellas with its Hellenes is some kind of one of the many Galias all over the world. In the Balkans, there are such place names
    -Galipoli
    -Galatia
    therefore, to climb into the eerie denseness - 2.5 years dn. e. not worth it, you must first deal with the upcoming events.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 15: 34
      +6
      -Ellada-Hellada / Gallada, i.e. Hellas with its Hellenes is one of the many Galias around the world

      And which of them is Timur - "shaggy"! Or do you prefer Gaul - no pants? laughing
      And not Gaul, but Galya! lol
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 19 December 2020 15: 59
        +2
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        And which of them is Timur - "shaggy"! Or do you prefer Gaul - no pants?

        I have already given a picture from a map, where, for example, in 17th century Italy there were Cossacks without pants.
        The guy looks like a typical Cossack, not shaved bald, like a true Caucasian, but with a beard, in a Cossack cap, but in a skirt, with a gun and a first / six-pin / mace behind his belt.



        or here already Britain and also without pants.

        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 21: 29
          +4
          You have not seen the coat of arms of Kaiser Germany with the Papuans in skirts !!!
  6. vlad.baryatinsky
    vlad.baryatinsky 19 December 2020 15: 24
    +3
    Hello !
    Quote: Nazar
    It is clear that the volume of the article is limited, but I would like to know more

    I support you.
    Thanks to the author!
    And please, for more such articles.
  • Crowe
    Crowe 19 December 2020 05: 30
    +16
    Thanks to the Author for the article, but, forgive me, one small remark is not even a wish ... There were not enough illustrations to complete the picture, with them somehow integral and pleasant reading is obtained ...
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 06: 12
      +14
      And where to get them full and reliable illustrations about the life and military affairs of that period? For example, the hoplite and riders in the title and the only "picture" to this article caused so many questions for me that I decided to leave it without comment.
      Although the illustration of Scythian women, pottery shards, arrowheads and ornaments of the Scythians would be appropriate. To be honest, I was only in one museum dedicated to the Bosporus in Taman (Krasnodar Territory). I propose to contact Egor (the author) to the administration of this museum. I think they will not refuse. In addition, there are members of the forum from Temryuk and Anapa districts who, at the request of the author, can personally help with the request. And popularization of the museum will not hurt !!!
      1. PhilipKDick
        19 December 2020 08: 08
        +13
        Thank you. I will consider. I'll try to find material
      2. kalibr
        kalibr 19 December 2020 08: 22
        +7
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        In addition, there are forum users from Temryuk

        In the Temryuk Museum of Local Lore, in the courtyard there are stone steles, monuments to soldiers with very interesting images and dedicatory inscriptions! In the Anapa archaeological site - with the image of horsemen with bows ...
      3. kalibr
        kalibr 19 December 2020 08: 25
        +7
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        I propose to contact Egor (the author) to the administration of this museum.

        Good advice! Remember what huge vessels for grain and oil are there? But would they want to mess around with filming? Although there are interesting photos on their website and you can ask for them.
      4. Engineer
        Engineer 19 December 2020 12: 36
        +4
        For example, the hoplite and riders in the title and only "picture" to this article caused so many questions for me that I decided to leave it without comment.

        Post questions. We will discuss together, delve into the sources
        The riders are Scythians. And there is more material on them than on hoplites))
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 15: 21
          +4
          Quote: Engineer
          For example, the hoplite and riders in the title and only "picture" to this article caused so many questions for me that I decided to leave it without comment.

          Post questions. We will discuss together, delve into the sources
          The riders are Scythians. And there is more material on them than on hoplites))

          Shit moon-shaped. The Scythians had oval (bean-shaped and rectangular with rounded edges), as well as round shields. No ubidons.
          Now on the hoplite.
          It is copied from ceramics and depicts the god of the Scythians Ares. Moreover, during the Civil War, as the war strikes with the same shield. The one that jammed me.
          1. Engineer
            Engineer 19 December 2020 16: 00
            +4
            Oval and rounded edges are more common. But there is also a shield-cut as in the picture.



            Do you recognize?))

            The covering of the shield is striped according to Chernenko. Fastened with wire.
            Has analogies in archaeological material


            I was more confused by the chieftain's horse headdress from the Pazyryk kurgan. There are no other decorations on the horse, but they should be, and the warrior himself is equipped very simple. Such a horse sultan is clearly not in his status.

            The hoplite has an Attic helmet. 5th century BC Hector, during his duel with Achilles in the famous image is the same. Linothorax, Knemida. Everything is according to the canon of the classic hoplite. I will not undertake to identify the sword. What confuses you?
            I forgot who had a shield with a snake ((In the picture on the shield it seems like a snake.
            If someone knows the number or name of the issue of the spree, then (the picture from there) you can find out even more. I have all the issues, I didn't find it right away
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 17: 38
              +3
              Tricky question! A Scythian warrior fighting on a ridge with the Scythians?
              I don't think so, though! Burials can also contain trophies.
              The same Chernenko calls this shield an oval bean-shaped shield with a scaly covering of the umbidon troubles.

              Undoubtedly, A.I. Melyukov is right in assuming that large wooden shields covered with leather are held in the hands of the soldiers of the Voronezh and Kulob vessels. Obviously, a smaller, almost oval shield of a foot soldier was made of the same material on a silver plate gorite from Solokha. 9) It is possible that the oblong shield of a foot soldier of the Solokh ridge had a similar device with rounded corners. A relief edge runs across it, probably to give the shield additional rigidity (Fig. 21). It is possible that the same oval shield is held in his hands by a pedestrian barbarian from a rhyton, originating from Kerch, Anapa or Novorossiysk. 10) All the above-mentioned armor is bordered along the edge by a relief roller.

              Thus, this shield is appropriate for a foot Scythian and not a horse one. For the rest, you are right to reap this leader, he must have armor and decoration of horse harness.
              The snake on the shield isn't Ephesus, is it? I found a piece of ceramics from which the hoplite was drawn. But the dumb phone swears the wrong format. Under the picture it is written that Ares is depicted. But Ares is a Scythian god! And this warrior drives a spear into a fellow tribe!
              1. Engineer
                Engineer 19 December 2020 18: 17
                +3
                A Scythian warrior fighting on a ridge with the Scythians?

                The Solokha comb was most likely made by Greek craftsmen. The guide to the gold storeroom of the Hermitage told me about this, among other things. Scythians are fighting among themselves.

                The same Chernenko calls this shield an oval bean-shaped shield with a scaly covering of the umbidon troubles.

                Chernenko's words clearly refer to the guy on the left, he has a bean-shaped shield. And our cut is a shield at the right one. I see no contradictions

                But Ares is a Scythian god!

                You take too literally the phrase of the Greeks that the Scythians had a cult of Ares and they worshiped him in the form of a sword. This is just an explanation of Herodotus, who interpreted everything from the Greek bell tower. We do not even know how the Scythians called the deity of war.

                I found a piece of ceramics from where the hoplite was drawn

                This one?
                Hoplite_battle_480BC_Museum_Fine_Art_Boston
                Like Diomedes against someone (I can't make out his name). It seems that this someone is similar to our hoplite, but it seems not Ares))
                1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 18: 47
                  +3
                  No, not this drawing!
                  If there is a watsap, let's try to throw it through it.
                  Across the Scythian. According to the catalog “a Thracian shield of the early Boeotian type with a cutout”. Descendant of the Greek apis (haplon), in the traditional Scythian version (scaly). Apparently trophy. Early versions were cutaway. I didn't know.
                  According to the hoplite. Shields with a snake in that era had:
                  “If a warrior belonged to an ancient autochthonous family, then there was a snake on his shield. "
                  "Alcmaeon, the son of Amphiarai, possessed a shield with the image of a snake, which the scholiast explains by the fact that the son retained the art of divination of his father (Schol. Ad Pind. Pyth. VIII. 45)."
                  “The variety of emblems in Attica in the second half of the 368th century. BC. confirmed by the epigraphic material. Thus, in the list of initiations in the Parthenon, dated 7/112 BC, four emblems are mentioned on the shields: dolphin, gorgoneion, eagle and horse (IG. 1425.372. 373-1455). Another inscription-catalog speaks of shields with the serpent emblem and other emblems that have not been preserved in the text (IG. II.61-65 - after 340/339 BC; cf. 1414, 24 - after 30/385 BC; 4 - c. 1433/14 BC; 367-6 - 1443.221/222 BC). ".
      5. ccsr
        ccsr 19 December 2020 21: 10
        +3
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        And where to get them full and reliable illustrations about the life and military affairs of that period?

        In summer, visit the Kerch City Museum and several other city exhibitions, where you can even see the first gold coins of the Greek civilization - there they will tell you a lot about the life and military affairs of the settlers. Moreover, almost all excavations of ancient settlements are available - you yourself will see with your own eyes salting baths, and wineries, and jugs for storing grain, and ancient anchors.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 21: 25
          +2
          Thanks for the advice! In the stormy year, definitely not. Main leave in February, additional leave in November.
          If the dashing will bring to the Crimea in a year, then I will definitely use your offer.
          Although I do not think that the life of the Crimean Scythians was different from the inhabitants of Taman.
          It’s my knowledge from the colonies of the Hellenes in the Black Sea region that confuses me.
          1. ccsr
            ccsr 20 December 2020 10: 28
            +1
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            If the dashing will bring to the Crimea in a year, then I will definitely use your offer.

            It is best, of course, to go from May to September, when guides work and travel routes to historical sites are established. In general, Kerch is the most unique historical city not only in Crimea, but also in our country in general, because such an abundance of historical monuments of the ancient world cannot be found anywhere else in our country. And the military history of the city is unique even from the point of view of the Great Patriotic War. Therefore, if there are no small children, then spit on Yalta, Evpatoria and Feodosia and go to Kerch to travel. There you will not only see history with your own eyes, but also the gorgeous beaches of eastern Crimea, including the famous Chokrak lake, the Opuk reserve and General's beaches - these are better than other beach places in Crimea. Whoever loves and understands such a vacation does not go further than the Kerch Peninsula - there are too many attractions to travel for several years ...
            1. icant007
              icant007 23 December 2020 16: 48
              +1
              Quote: ccsr
              In general, Kerch is the most unique historical city not only in Crimea, but also in our country in general, because such an abundance of historical monuments of the ancient world cannot be found anywhere else in our country.


              There are dozens of ancient settlements alone)
    2. PhilipKDick
      19 December 2020 08: 04
      +15
      Hello. Thanks for the comment. This was my very first article, I haven't figured it out in many ways.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 19 December 2020 08: 07
        +13
        The debut was a success!
        Thank you!
        1. Crowe
          Crowe 19 December 2020 09: 09
          +13
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          The debut was a success!

          To the author of creative successes on the pages of the respected VO!
      2. kalibr
        kalibr 19 December 2020 08: 19
        +11
        Quote: PhilipKDick
        This was my very first article

        Well you wrote everything. But ... be sure to give a signature on the authorship of the picture. It is enough to write Fig. Angus McBride and that's it ... Otherwise ... there might be problems.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 08: 52
          +5
          Vyacheslav Olegovich, but this is definitely not the Black Sea region
          1. kalibr
            kalibr 19 December 2020 12: 52
            +2
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Vyacheslav Olegovich, but this is definitely not the Black Sea region

            There are very few materials on it. There was an article in the journal Archeology of the USSR on buckles of Roman legionaries found in these places, there was an article by M. Gorelik on Scythian armor, ... and that's it!
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 14: 26
              +2
              Vyacheslav Olegovich, in the picture I was confused by almost everything except the hoplite helmet and the Scythian sword.
              1. kalibr
                kalibr 19 December 2020 15: 38
                +3
                Vladislav, what's wrong? I looked at this McBride's drawing and, knowing how he drew, everything is clear in the sense of the source base. Although the hoplon is the Greek's shield, it is still poorly drawn. It should be larger and flatter in the center. And the Scythian shield, the belt ... - everything is "so". It was a book by Chernenko, "the master of the Scythians", who was the first (!) Back in the USSR, Osprey, was invited to be published in England. Well, his book became a sensation.
                1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                  Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 17: 47
                  +3
                  Vyacheslav Olegovich, thank you!
                  I also play from what I read from Chernenko. The Scythian shield should not have sharp edges at the notch. It should be oval bean-shaped, not crescent-shaped.
                  The bearded hoplite in our literature is described as the Scythian god Ares! From the one who fought with Aphrodite! On the ceramics from which the drawing was taken, he beat a fellow tribesman with a similar shield on which a snake is depicted.
                  Thanks again for your time!
                  1. kalibr
                    kalibr 19 December 2020 18: 55
                    +2
                    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                    and not a crescent (crescent).

                    ?????????
                    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 19: 18
                      +3
                      The edges are sharp, the Scythians have oval!
                      Here I rummaged everything, perhaps it is a trophy Thracian shield of the Boeotian type. They also made them scaly, but used them on foot !!!
                      Roofing paper does not match by epoch. Hoplite with a shield or a hero of the Trojan War or from Athens after the Persian Wars! However, if it is the same age as the Trojan War, then it must also be of the Boeotian type with cutouts on both sides!
                      Athenian hoplites!


                      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 19: 22
                        +3
                        Heroes of the Trojan War!


                        And here is the Scythian warrior.
                      2. kalibr
                        kalibr 19 December 2020 21: 26
                        +2
                        M. Gorelik has an excellent monograph "Arms and Armor of the Ancient East" there it should be. I can't say anything straight off. I haven't done this for a long time.
                      3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 22: 05
                        +2
                        Vyacheslav Olegovich, I've already studied Gorelkin and other authors here.
                        There are only two options.
                        1. Shield of Amphiaraus, which was later worn by his son Alcmeon. Amfiar was a participant in the campaign of the Argonauts, so he could take part in a skirmish with the Scythians. Only in the times described should it have a Boeotian-type shield - with cutouts on the sides.
                        2. The Athenian hoplite during the hegemony of Athens after the Greco-Persian wars, but after finding details of the operations of the Athenian fleet in the southern Black Sea region, I did not find Nyong'o mention of military clashes on the northern coast.
                        Well, somewhere like that.
                      4. kalibr
                        kalibr 19 December 2020 22: 09
                        +2
                        I can’t say anything else. But in general, you perfectly disassembled this drawing, and together proved (especially the drawings on amphorae presented by you) that the hoplite shield should have been drawn larger!
                      5. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 22: 16
                        +3
                        I know Vyacheslav Olegovich, you can train yourself a little in six years.
                        Although I didn't draw a snake on the shield. Left the shield blank or with the emblems of the Ionian Greeks.
                2. Engineer
                  Engineer 20 December 2020 17: 56
                  +2
                  Nice post. I completely forgot about the Scythian on the last vase
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 08: 54
    +6
    Yegor You are really great!
    Regards, Vlad!
  • Proxima
    Proxima 19 December 2020 05: 37
    +7
    So the postscript "to be continued" suggests itself at the end of the article. The material does not at all touch upon the period of the Bosporus kingdom at the peak of its power, the legendary king Mithridates and naturally the struggle of this kingdom with Rome are not mentioned. And so, the topic is very interesting! The history of such kingdoms is more or less necessary to know, if only because this kingdom was located on the territory of modern Russia. And thanks to this kingdom, we have the most ancient city in Russia - Kerch, a lot - 26 centuries! fellow
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 06: 13
      +8
      Quote: Proxima
      And thanks to this kingdom, we have the most ancient city in Russia - Kerch, a lot - 26 centuries!


      Not Chersonesos? Or do you mean the most ancient city that exists to this day?
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 19 December 2020 07: 00
        +6
        Maybe yes. Yet Chersonesos is currently part of Sevastopol.
        You can endlessly search for a starting point from the base of the city. Or be Titus Livy.

        Is Derbent younger?
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 07: 21
          +7
          I'm not an expert here!
          Academician B. Rybakov comes to mind - who tied 1500 years of Kiev to the anniversary date of the October Revolution wink
          However, not everything is smooth with Moscow either.
          But what to say with young cities like Yekaterinburg there are discrepancies !!!
          What is considered the birth of the city: the launch of a dam or the day of St. Catherine in whose honor the city is named? Although the holiday is generally celebrated in the third week of August !!!
          Most of the Ural cities, in principle, do not bother to unite the day of the city with the day of Metallurgist.
          Well, somewhere like that!
          It was easier in the USSR, according to archaeological artifacts, Tashkent was ahead of everyone!
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 19 December 2020 07: 37
            +6
            The first question: and all sorts of Fatyanovo, Dyakovo cultures are not considered?
            The settlement is not a starting point?

            Here he wrote to the prince: "Let us arrange a mighty feast." And let's start counting.

            For me, the question is - how many descendants should there be for the foundation of the city?
            Do girls count?
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 08: 39
              +4
              As far as I remember, "girls" began to be counted only during the census under Nicholas II, and when asked about his wife's patronymic, the husband answered "I will also call her woman by her patronymic." Although there was a point in the instructions, "if the homeowner does not want to give information, check with the neighbors" !!!
              Before that, it was considered smoke, families, etc. The first capitation was under Peter the Great.
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 19 December 2020 09: 06
                +3
                Sobakevich also wrote Elizaveta Vorobya to Chichikov.

                So I tell my shards. Ever since childhood, they were outraged.
            2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 08: 51
              +5
              According to the report!
              First mentioned in documents: Moscow, Veliky Novgorod.
              Second. Archaeological excavations confirmed by sources, both direct and indirect: Chersonesos.
              Third. Significant and necessarily beautiful date: Kiev and Kazan.
              Fourth. Deflection in front of the bosses! Yekaterinburg, Yekaterinoslav (Krasnodar) "Mother, we are looking for your permission to name the fortress-factory of our works in honor of St. Catherine."
              Fifth. Local traditions. In the Urals, this is the launch of a dam - 9 out of 10 cities.
              My personal opinion is that the countdown of the existence of a settlement should include the continuity of its existence. So Kiev and Chersonese fall out of this cage.
              I propose to reflect on this topic !!!
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 19 December 2020 09: 09
                +3
                We continue the game: the most continuous city.
                I'll start with Damascus. You can't dig in here. Moreover, the capital.

                Can Sevastopol be considered the successor of Chersonesos? Unlikely.
                Just absorbed into myself in our time.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 19 December 2020 09: 18
                  +4
                  We have already discussed. My version: Jericho.
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 19 December 2020 09: 56
                    +4
                    Hello Anton.
                    And where is Damascus with Jericho? We are talking specifically about the Black Sea region.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 19 December 2020 10: 09
                      +4
                      Hi Uncle Kostya!
                      This is a game that helps prevent mycosis of the brain. laughing
                      1. Catfish
                        Catfish 19 December 2020 10: 11
                        +4
                        Once the brain belongs to the internal organs, I have always believed that it is on its own. laughing
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 19 December 2020 10: 14
                        +4
                        But mold grows quite successfully
                      3. Catfish
                        Catfish 19 December 2020 10: 16
                        +4
                        And that's for sure!
                        Have you been to Sevastopol and Crimea in general?
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 19 December 2020 10: 21
                        +3
                        No, I have never been.
                      5. Catfish
                        Catfish 19 December 2020 10: 22
                        +3
                        It makes sense to go, until either Sevastopol is closed again, or the Turks have not captured the entire Crimea. laughing
                      6. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 19 December 2020 10: 38
                        +3
                        Why should the Turks care about this suitcase without a handle?
                      7. Catfish
                        Catfish 19 December 2020 10: 39
                        +4
                        And here I read a lot of one "smart guy" on the next branch and the roof went completely. It’s about tanks, but he’s about his own. laughing
                2. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 19 December 2020 15: 43
                  +3
                  I love Crimea in general, Chersonesos in particular.
                3. Catfish
                  Catfish 19 December 2020 17: 15
                  +4
                  And at night in Chersonesos, but at a fire ... Silence, only the guardhouse in the roadstead is freezing something, and you hug a lovely girl and it seems that nothing else is needed in life. ))
                  True, then the morning still comes.
  • Proxima
    Proxima 19 December 2020 15: 14
    0
    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka

    My personal opinion is that the countdown of the existence of a settlement should include the continuity of its existence. So Kiev and Chersonese fall out of this cage.
    I propose to reflect on this topic !!!

    Let's think it over! what There are many conventions here. One of them: in Soviet historiography, it is customary to consider the date of the foundation of the city in Ancient Russia as the first mention of it in the Chronicle, unless, of course, there are no other reliable sources. For example, Moscow got into this cage with its foundation date - 1147. But the excavations in the Kremlin refute this date for at least 50 years! fellow Nevertheless, they did not change the principle, they did not make an exception even for the capital! request So, everything in this world is relative, even in historical chronology. hi
  • Catfish
    Catfish 19 December 2020 09: 00
    +3
    Seryozha, without girls anywhere!
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 19 December 2020 09: 07
      +5
      Himself of the same opinion. All the more, I multiplied their numbers to the best of my ability.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 19 December 2020 09: 20
        +7
        Grace! Imagine: you are sitting somewhere out there, in Chersonesos, in the shade behind a jug of Knitsky, and they, our good ones, are picking grapes nearby. Pastoral...
        1. Fat
          Fat 19 December 2020 14: 51
          +3
          This is congenial! I'll go to Koktebel to rest, at the same time I'll look at Aivazovsky and fall once to Feodosia ... laughing
        2. Korsar4
          Korsar4 19 December 2020 15: 44
          +5
          They sent me wine as a gift. I tasted it yesterday. Smelled in the distance?
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 19 December 2020 17: 10
            +3
            Heart and soul felt, already a tear came out. I envy, but for good, not me, so my friend is happy. drinks
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 19 December 2020 18: 32
              +3
              “They sent the old woman a coffee pot as a present,
              And for a poodle - a whip and a copper collar ”(c).
            2. Catfish
              Catfish 19 December 2020 18: 37
              +4
              "And I have not forgotten the witch:
              From the Kunstkamera as a gift
              She sent her a stub in alcohol,
              The one who amazed everyone)
              Two echidnas, two skeletons
              From the same office ... "(c)
            3. Korsar4
              Korsar4 19 December 2020 19: 48
              +4
              "Search the whole world -
              There are no such in nature.
              This is me for you, blue
              I speak like a local historian "(c).
            4. Catfish
              Catfish 19 December 2020 20: 57
              +4
              "... I carried both rubble and granite home.
              One day he brought this home
              That dad and mom cried bitterly! "(C)
            5. Korsar4
              Korsar4 19 December 2020 21: 08
              +4
              “I won't touch you,
              And I will bury in my soul ”(c).
            6. Catfish
              Catfish 19 December 2020 21: 10
              +5
              "At the grave, the old fashioned way,
              Three were celebrating the commemoration.
              And they went over the edge
              At least remember them yourself. "(C)
            7. Korsar4
              Korsar4 19 December 2020 21: 28
              +3
              “But always to smoke -
              For two "(c).
            8. Catfish
              Catfish 19 December 2020 21: 33
              +4
              "And if there is one joy for everyone,
              There is only one trouble for everyone. "(C)
            9. Korsar4
              Korsar4 19 December 2020 21: 38
              +4
              Amusingly, the two branches converged.

              “Among noisy friends
              She is inconspicuous ”(c).
            10. Catfish
              Catfish 19 December 2020 22: 03
              +4
              "Amid a noisy ball, by chance ..." (c)
            11. Korsar4
              Korsar4 19 December 2020 22: 27
              +4
              "This autumn did not spare anyone" (c)
            12. Catfish
              Catfish 19 December 2020 22: 48
              +4
              "And the last autumn embroiders the crosses
              On the worn gold of our epaulettes. "(C)
            13. Korsar4
              Korsar4 20 December 2020 04: 46
              +2
              “The former posesaul went to fight” (c).
            14. Catfish
              Catfish 20 December 2020 21: 42
              +2
              "- Why does he respect the Reds then?"
              - No, he pissed up, he doesn't respect the red,
              he cannot respect them ... "(c)
            15. Korsar4
              Korsar4 20 December 2020 22: 19
              +3
              “And everyone has one head
              As with me "(c).
            16. Catfish
              Catfish 20 December 2020 22: 29
              +2
              "The earth is cracking like an empty nut,
              The armor is bursting like a splinter "(c)
            17. Korsar4
              Korsar4 21 December 2020 05: 48
              +2
              “Then Baloo turned out to be a nut. See that he does not do what ripe coconuts do ”(c).
            18. Catfish
              Catfish 21 December 2020 05: 59
              +2
              "Once I looked into a dense forest for a need,
              Then the Plate before me fell from heaven,
              I blush, I blush, I can't understand
              How can I send this case before her "(c)
            19. Korsar4
              Korsar4 21 December 2020 06: 01
              +2
              “There is a dark-skinned Moldavian woman
              Gathered grapes ”(c).
            20. Catfish
              Catfish 21 December 2020 06: 03
              +2
              "I came to Madame Angers,
              I was met in negligee
              Threw himself at Madame Anjou
              I tore off her negligee. "(C)
            21. Korsar4
              Korsar4 21 December 2020 06: 25
              +2
              “We swam negligee -
              I and the girl-goddess "(c).
            22. Catfish
              Catfish 21 December 2020 06: 29
              +2
              "In the Far East, the guns are silent,
              Young boys miss girls
              They don't whine, they don't grumble, they keep the materiel in order
              And they knock on dominoes. "(C)
            23. Korsar4
              Korsar4 21 December 2020 07: 02
              +3
              "Ah, extraordinary, post-war tango" (c).
            24. Catfish
              Catfish 21 December 2020 07: 17
              +2
              "Holding on to Paradise, like a tram handle,
              He told her, oh my dear Raya,
              I ask you, no, I just beg you
              Dance with me a farewell tangO. "(C)
            25. Korsar4
              Korsar4 21 December 2020 07: 30
              +3
              “There were girls Tamara, Rosa, Raya,
              And with them is the nail of Odessa, the Stepka-shmarovoz "(c).
            26. Catfish
              Catfish 21 December 2020 08: 46
              +2
              "There they beat girls Tamara, Rose, Paradise
              And Styopa-shmarovoz beat them personally. "(C)

              A pimp, it was Stepa.
            27. Korsar4
              Korsar4 21 December 2020 15: 15
              +2
              Who would argue.
              Whether business:

              “But then the stadium
              He passed free.
              Uncle Styopa was allowed to pass:
              We thought he was a champion ”(c).
            28. Catfish
              Catfish 21 December 2020 15: 22
              +2
              Steps - they are.

              "And throws it overboard into the oncoming wave." (C)
            29. Korsar4
              Korsar4 21 December 2020 17: 32
              +2
              “You are my wave, wave” (c).
            30. Catfish
              Catfish 21 December 2020 18: 18
              +3
              "Slow sea waters,
              not like rails in two rows
              And escorted the steamers
              not at all like trains. "(c)
            31. Korsar4
              Korsar4 21 December 2020 19: 48
              +3
              “Currency rattles in my pocket, -
              Give it to the guide for a tip "(c).
            32. Catfish
              Catfish 21 December 2020 20: 11
              +2
              "At the samovar, my Masha and I
              And we will drink sweet tea until the morning. "(C)
            33. Korsar4
              Korsar4 21 December 2020 20: 16
              +2
              "There will be fungi for vodka,
              Tea with cheesecakes "(c).
            34. Catfish
              Catfish 21 December 2020 20: 33
              +3
              "The holy thing is to drink to Spartak" (c)
            35. Phil77
              Phil77 21 December 2020 20: 44
              +3
              Quote: Sea Cat
              "The holy thing is to drink to Spartak" (c)

              ??????? !!!!!!!!!! ------------
              Didn't expect !!!!!! Maybe even for * Zenith * ??????

              Just kidding, amigo! laughing
            36. Korsar4
              Korsar4 21 December 2020 20: 49
              +3
              Let's share the song with each interlocutor.

              “Let the melody rush like a bird,
              Let the brute force fill it ”(c).
            37. Phil77
              Phil77 21 December 2020 20: 54
              +3
              Quote: Korsar4
              Let it fill

              good good good
            38. Korsar4
              Korsar4 21 December 2020 20: 59
              +3
              Let's not divide into Venets and Prasins.

              "What if they are very decent people" (c).

              Bobrov and Kharlamov, for example, are legends.
              But isn't Maltsev condemning respect ?!
            39. Phil77
              Phil77 21 December 2020 21: 02
              +3
              I don’t argue, this is so ... a joke. But the bad thing is that club patriotism remained only among the fans / I do not like the word * fan * /.
            40. Korsar4
              Korsar4 21 December 2020 21: 05
              +3
              Seryozha already said that I remember the 1982 World Cup best. I don't remember the previous one - it was very small. And then there are other priorities.

              I respect traditions. In all forms. And all the children were or are engaged in sports.
            41. Catfish
              Catfish 22 December 2020 00: 16
              +3
              At the word "fan" I immediately have an image of an unshaven muzzle in a turban and ... my hand involuntarily reaches for the pistol. angry
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 22 December 2020 00: 02
      +3
      Seryozha, this is a phrase from the film, but in reality I don't give a damn about all the "Spartaks" and "Zeniths", I already wrote about this once.
      I was rooting only for our hockey team, but that was in the distant Soviet Union. I've never watched football - it's boring.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 21 December 2020 20: 47
    +3
    “In my backpack I have bacon and matches
    And Turgenev has eight volumes "(c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 22 December 2020 00: 17
    +1
    "And you write me letters in small handwriting,
    Since there is little space in the backpack "(c)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 22 December 2020 04: 24
    +2
    “To live in kilometers,
    And not by square meters "(c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 22 December 2020 04: 27
    +1
    Good morning Sergey. smile

    "Reeling miles on the gimbal
    And I'm driving parallel to the wires, -
    But every now and then a shadow in front of the engine -
    Either a black cat, then someone in something black "(c)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 22 December 2020 04: 31
    +2
    Good morning, Constantine!

    “And now out of rut
    Can't get out "(c).
  • Catfish
    Catfish 22 December 2020 04: 33
    +1
    "We burned down by misunderstanding" (c)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 22 December 2020 05: 09
    0
    “At the head of Berezkin -
    Oh and arrogance, oh and show off! " (from).
  • Fat
    Fat 19 December 2020 19: 01
    +2
    KE? MUA? Yes, not in life. I'm on brandy ... But the red "fanagoria" ... Sergei, it's really wonderful. I thought about it. recourse
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 19 December 2020 19: 49
      +5
      "Grape seed
      I'll bury it in the warm earth ”(c).
    2. Fat
      Fat 19 December 2020 19: 53
      +3
      "... and kiss the vine and pick ripe bunches ...
      So fly my guests to my treat
      otherwise why do I live on this eternal earth "(c)
    3. Korsar4
      Korsar4 19 December 2020 20: 46
      +2
      “And there is a garden in the city,
      All herbs and flowers ”(c).
    4. Catfish
      Catfish 19 December 2020 20: 55
      +5
      "And the city thought: teachings are going ..." (c)
    5. Korsar4
      Korsar4 19 December 2020 21: 07
      +4
      "Atlanteans hold the sky" (c).
    6. Catfish
      Catfish 19 December 2020 21: 08
      +4
      "While the goblin was shaving, the ghoul disappeared!" laughing
    7. Korsar4
      Korsar4 19 December 2020 21: 26
      +4
      “Walk boldly - this is a dream.
      The predators in it are not evil ”(c).
    8. Catfish
      Catfish 19 December 2020 21: 31
      +4
      "Poor Mowgli, every man for himself ..." (c)
    9. Korsar4
      Korsar4 19 December 2020 21: 36
      +4
      "My friend is my third shoulder" (c).
  • Fat
    Fat 19 December 2020 21: 23
    +4
    "one of them will weaken - and the sky will fall" (c)
  • Catfish
    Catfish 19 December 2020 22: 11
    +5
    "The last negro looked tiredly,
    He went and hanged himself, and there was no one. "(C)
  • Fat
    Fat 19 December 2020 22: 37
    +3
    Konstantin! It's not fair! could have left at least one to continue the topic And you ... "Race! ... and FSE" (c) ...
  • Catfish
    Catfish 19 December 2020 22: 54
    +4
    Not all, left ONE for divorce. laughing
  • Fat
    Fat 19 December 2020 23: 01
    +3
    Well, here, as always ... Start on the Moors, end with varieties of chocolate recourse
  • Catfish
    Catfish 19 December 2020 23: 06
    +4
    What can you do, Xi La Vie, panim! drinks
  • Fat
    Fat 19 December 2020 23: 12
    +3
    I pann ... fellow laughing
  • Fat
    Fat 19 December 2020 21: 09
    +4
    Animals of unprecedented beauty walk there
    One, like a yellow, fiery lion,
    The other is an ox full of eyes,
    with them the golden eagle of heaven,
    whose face is so bright (look), unforgettable (s)
    By the way, Mouzon is from the 14th century, I could not trace deeper ...
    Honestly - it was not interesting crying
    In vain, in vain, you, Sergey, started this ...
    Now I'll dive ... what drinks wassat
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 19 December 2020 21: 27
    +5
    An evening with this music is not a bad option. What if you dig up!
  • Fat
    Fat 19 December 2020 21: 59
    +3
    Hardly ... With Mouzon everything is always bad. Take 16 tons and our Kuzmin with his unforgettable "Simone" .... Oh ...
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 19 December 2020 22: 23
    +3
    Words are better.
    However, the taste and color ...
  • Fat
    Fat 19 December 2020 23: 14
    +2
    Mouzon is the same, that's an ambush! So much for the miners on the Riga coast ... My cry ...
  • Lexus
    Lexus 22 December 2020 03: 30
    +7
    Uncle Kostya, hello, dear! Glad you like my messengers. repeat

    1. Catfish
      Catfish 22 December 2020 04: 36
      +1
      I am delighted, and everyone, I suppose, too. good
      1. Lexus
        Lexus 22 December 2020 04: 45
        +5
        The beauty of women cannot but delight. Especially us cats. wink
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 22 December 2020 04: 50
        +1
        "All day there is vanity in the yard,
        They chase the cat out of the way "(c)
      3. Lexus
        Lexus 22 December 2020 04: 51
        +6
        "Bastards!" (FROM)
  • Engineer
    Engineer 19 December 2020 12: 21
    +5
    The settlement is not a starting point?

    Quite a starting point. But the key criterion is the continuity of the settlement.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 19 December 2020 18: 34
      +4
      I agree.

      And if you return to the ashes in a couple of years - this is the preservation of continuity?

      Ryazan and Pereyaslavl-Ryazan - different cities?
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 19 December 2020 18: 39
        +4
        And if you return to the ashes in a couple of years - this is the preservation of continuity?

        Definitely yes. Nobody interrupts the age of our cities with the Mongol invasion.
        Ryazan and Pereyaslavl-Ryazan - different cities?

        But here no. That is, they are different. ) There are tens of kilometers between old and new Ryazan. Moreover, they coexisted a little.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 19 December 2020 19: 51
          +4
          And relics walk through the cities: the Ark of the Covenant, the shroud, the relics of Nicholas the Pleasure.

          It is not easy to find the cornerstone.
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 19 December 2020 15: 35
    +3
    The first question: and all sorts of Fatyanovo, Dyakovo cultures are not considered?
    The settlement is not a starting point?

    Of course not. It has long been agreed - the starting point - the first written mention. And this strict criterion should not be canceled, everything else is very vague.
  • Nazar
    Nazar 19 December 2020 09: 53
    +2
    Kote pane Kohanka - I cannot vouch for the reliability, but today the most ancient and currently existing city is Derbent (Dagestan)
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 11: 00
      +3
      Perhaps, I honestly don't know!
  • Proxima
    Proxima 19 December 2020 12: 31
    +4
    Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Quote: Proxima
    And thanks to this kingdom, we have the most ancient city in Russia - Kerch, a lot - 26 centuries!


    Not Chersonesos? Or do you mean the most ancient city that exists to this day?

    I'll even tell you more, Kerch was considered the most ancient city in the USSR! True, Armenian historians did not quite conscientiously try to pull by the ears the fact of the existence of the city of the kingdom of Urartu on the site of present-day Yerevan and keep a temporary countdown of the Armenian capital from this city, but officially Soviet historiography did not recognize this fact, but recognized Kerch as the most ancient city of the Soviet Union.
    1. Nazar
      Nazar 19 December 2020 14: 05
      +1
      Proxima - found an article on this issue, they write the following about Derbent: - Soviet science recognized that from the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries BC the city developed continuously. - And they make such a conclusion - Thus, Kerch, founded in the XNUMXth century BC - Panticapaeum and Derbent, continuously inhabited, most likely from the XNUMXth century BC, are of the same age.
      https://www.culture.ru/s/vopros/drevniy-gorod/#
      1. Proxima
        Proxima 19 December 2020 14: 59
        +1
        Quote: Nazar
        Proxima - found an article on this issue, they write the following about Derbent: - Soviet science recognized that from the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries BC the city developed continuously. - And they make such a conclusion - Thus, Kerch, founded in the XNUMXth century BC - Panticapaeum and Derbent, continuously inhabited, most likely from the XNUMXth century BC, are of the same age.
        https://www.culture.ru/s/vopros/drevniy-gorod/#

        Thanks, I didn't know. I remember in my distant childhood a guide in a tourist bus called Kerch definitely the most ancient norod of the USSR. hi
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 19 December 2020 18: 35
        +2
        I admit that by that time Derbent was a part of Russia, and Kerch was in the Crimea.

        Although, this is a view from the run and from the surface.
    2. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 19 December 2020 15: 39
      +2
      From the school textbook I vaguely remember about the ancient state of Urartu, but about the city of Yerevan was not there.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 19 December 2020 09: 00
    +7
    Good morning friends! hi
    Congratulations to everyone on the appearance of a new, interesting author.
    May God grant him strength and health. smile
    1. Cure72
      Cure72 19 December 2020 09: 54
      +4
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Good morning friends! hi
      Congratulations to everyone on the appearance of a new, interesting author.
      May God grant him strength and health. smile

      I join. History is always interesting.
  • Engineer
    Engineer 19 December 2020 10: 19
    +5
    An unexpected article from a new author.
    In theory, the sequel should be more interesting
    The only thing that caught my eye
    that not only the Greeks, but also the sedentary Scythians took part in the construction of the rampart,

    The Scythians began to move to a sedentary lifestyle in the Crimea much later, after the decline of Great Scythia, from the 2nd century BC.
    Well, there is a picture to attract attention, but there is no description. laughing Archaeological material not provided
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 11: 02
      +3
      The author has the first article! I am sure that he will take into account all the wishes of the members of the forum.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 19 December 2020 11: 55
        +3
        So I don't scold
    2. PhilipKDick
      19 December 2020 11: 23
      +9
      My knowledge of the Scythian culture is not very great, but I recall from some scientific work that the most beggars were the settled people of the Scythians. Those who lost their horses and cattle.
      Agriculture among the Scythians (early) is a compulsory measure, not a cultural evolution
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 19 December 2020 11: 19
    +6
    I liked the article.
    Despite some rough edges, which I don’t want to talk about now, they are insignificant, the author’s style and position as a researcher make quite a favorable impression.
    I would like to see a list of references at the end of the article, especially since this is the first article, as I understand it, and it is the beginning of a certain cycle. It is not necessary to add it to each article, but to the first, in my opinion, it is necessary. I myself, sinned that I forgot to insert such a list, but I don’t forget to make comments on this. smile
    Now what struck me when I read it. The author writes:
    Third, the city-states did not have the opportunity to maintain permanent detachments of professional warriors. An average Bosporan settlement of that time could hardly have fielded more than a couple of dozen soldiers, which was clearly not enough for an open battle. But several settlements, having cooperated, could organize a serious military force. It is likely that it was this need that prompted the independent policies of the Bosporus to create a defensive alliance.

    The content of this paragraph seems to me to be very controversial, or, at least, in need of argumentation.
    Could not maintain permanent units of professional warriors

    We are not in the Middle Ages or even in Ancient Rome. Were there any professional warriors at that time? As far as I understand, the early slave city-states of the Greek model represented a certain number of free townspeople, each of whom, as needed, became a warrior, members of their families and a certain number of slaves, which were not much more, but rather even less than free ...
    The average Bosporan settlement of that time could hardly have fielded more than a couple of dozen warriors

    Where do these numbers come from? I am not trying to dispute them, I am asking - from where? What is the population of the "middle Bosporan settlement"? What is its social composition? And, again, "a couple dozen", who are "professional warriors", whose existence I doubt, free peasants-landowners or urban artisans? Or maybe even barbarian mercenaries? I would like to hear explanations.
    Well, in general.
    With his first publication, the author set a certain, in my opinion, quite decent level, and also showed his willingness to accompany published materials, which cannot but rejoice. Perhaps we are witnessing the "birth" of a new author, who in the future, along with other honored masters of the pen, will determine the level of publications of this resource. I hope that this article is not a "jump above my head", which is difficult or impossible to repeat, but the normal working level of the author, at which he can be without exhaustion, for a long time.
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 19 December 2020 12: 02
      +3
      Were there any professional warriors at that time?

      Why are mercenary troops of barbarians bad? The Greeks used the same Thracians and Illyrians. Up to 1000 Scythian horsemen served in Athens. Warlike tribes, warrior culture, valor in battle is the highest virtue. Is it a big stretch to consider the then tribal leader with his inner circle as professional soldiers?
      About 20 thousand from an average settlement is too much, probably. But on the other hand, the author wrote "hardly more". Formally, everything is correct)
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 12: 23
        +2
        As far as I remember, a stone was found on the coast of Crimea with the oath of the citizens of the policy. So the culture of Hellas, when a free farmer and artisan was at war with the duties of a citizen, existed at least until the arrival of the Goths.
        And from myself I will add a fairly healthy position.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 19 December 2020 12: 24
          +3
          A question about professional warriors. And you are talking about the police militia - the police army
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 14: 03
            +2
            Quote: Engineer
            A question about professional warriors. And you are talking about the police militia - the police army

            10 free citizens (hoplites) and 000 slaves participated in the marathon battle from Athens. Not a word about the mercenaries.
            10 farms in Athens on a permanent basis contained two triremes with carriages and 20 horsemen. The Trierarchs of the remaining Trieres maintained and equipped ships at their own expense. If I'm not mistaken, the rigging of the trimer was divided into soft and hard. They bought the first sails and ropes for their own money, the second they and the oars were given to them by the state. Then farms were replaced by strategies, but this is already the endgame of the Greco-Persian wars. I think Yegor will highlight these events, since the campaigns of the Persians, Athenians and Spartans directly affected the interests of the colonies of the Black Sea region.
      2. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 19 December 2020 12: 47
        +6
        Quote: Engineer
        About 20 thousand from an average settlement is too much, probably.

        The author spoke of twenty, but not twenty thousand. Thousands are, of course, overkill. And twenty, in my opinion, is not enough. I think that the Greek polis could put about 10% of its free population in the phalanx, but this is with extreme exertion of forces, on average, probably, about 5%. I have met such numbers from someone and they seem to me quite real.
        As for the squads of barbarians, then perhaps, perhaps, they can be considered professional warriors, although not without reservations.
        The hired squads of barbarians, quartered in policies on a permanent basis, somehow do not fit in my head. And, most importantly, I have not heard anything about the participation of such units in the political struggle within these policies. Agree that the presence, even in a city like Athens, of a detachment of 1000 organized, armed and close-knit men, ready to obey whoever pays the most or does not obey anyone at all should significantly influence the internal policy of this city and be reflected in the sources. And, probably, this presence should presuppose the presence of a permanent formation of local citizens of a comparable size - as a military-political counterweight.
        As far as I understand, the barbarians were hired not on a permanent basis, but only for the period of hostilities, that is, in peacetime they did not need their services, and in the absence of war, the barbarians were forced to return to their herds and wagons, the manipulation of which, in fact, was were their main source of income.
        So, in full measure, I think, it would not be entirely correct to call barbarian mercenaries professional warriors.
        1. Engineer
          Engineer 19 December 2020 13: 04
          +5
          About a thousand I turned it down. After yesterday's workout, I am collecting myself in parts and can not concentrate.
          The hired squads of barbarians, quartered in policies on a permanent basis, somehow do not fit in my head.

          As far as I understand, the barbarians were not hired on a permanent basis, but only for the period of hostilities

          Usually yes, no controversy.

          Agree that the presence, even in a city like Athens, of a detachment of 1000 organized, armed and close-knit men, ready to obey whoever pays the most or does not obey anyone at all should significantly influence the internal policy of this city and be reflected in the sources.

          These soldiers were in Athens on a permanent basis. And this was reflected in the documents.
          In general, you are dramatizing. A thousand Swiss in the Vatican were supposed to influence the internal politics of Rome? In theory, yes, but in practice, no. In the documents they are like the Scythians in Athens.

          So, in full measure, I think, it would not be entirely correct to call barbaric mercenaries professional warriors.

          A purely formal question. Full-not complete, the subject of the dispute is not clear. Is the squad of the leader of the Celts or Scythians professional warriors? In general, yes .
          And in the Achaemenid Empire, quasi-feudal relations are already taking shape. And Tarn directly calls them feudal. People serve for a plot of land that is personally cultivated by free laborers. Are these "knights" professionals? - sooner yes. Not amateurs, exactly. )
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 19 December 2020 13: 20
            +3
            A professional, in my understanding, is one who feeds on his craft. If some occupation is the main source of income, then it is in this occupation that the person is a professional, and not in any other. The fact that someone knows how to do something well (to fight, for example, like the Scythians) does not yet make him a professional in this area.
            If the Scythian mercenaries really were in Athens constantly with the same composition, regardless of whether the hostilities were fought or not, they received salaries and allowances and were not engaged in any other occupation not related to the use of force, and if this presence was long enough, at least ten years ( request ), then yes, I am ready to agree - they were professional warriors.
            If we mean a limited contingent who was hired to conduct hostilities for a certain period or until a certain result is achieved, after which this contingent returned to the usual cattle breeding or other occupation, then these are not professional warriors, but simply lovers of war and plunder. smile
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 19 December 2020 13: 35
              +3
              A professional, in my understanding, is one who feeds on his craft.

              Exactly. The Scythian and Sarmatian and Gallic, and later the German elite, were fed precisely from the war. Today we will serve the Greeks for several months for money. The war will end - we will rob the neighbors. We will conclude a lucrative non-aggression pact with sedentary tribes, impose direct levies on others.
              If we do not fight for a year or two, we will only hunt and drink. Will this deprive them of their status as professional warriors? Will they immediately become militias of the times of military democracy?
              This is how any professional fights so that he does not fight later. And do nothing at all. At least for a while)
              If the Scythian mercenaries were really in Athens constantly aboutday and the same composition, regardless of whether hostilities were conducted or not, received salaries and allowances and were not engaged in any other occupation not related to the use of force, and if this presence was long enough, at least ten years

              You have tightened the criteria for professionals so much that 90 percent of the later Swiss and Landsknechts will not fall under them.)
              Yes, the Scythians were constantly there. But this is in wealthy Athens. For Black Sea policies, of course, this is extremely unlikely.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 19 December 2020 13: 57
                +2
                Quote: Engineer
                You have tightened the criteria for professionals so much that 90 percent of the later Swiss and Landsknechts will not fall under them.)

                By no means.
                The criterion of "permanent composition" is necessary, because if the composition is variable, it will turn out that some left, returning to their main occupations, others came, replacing them, then also left, others came in their place, etc. This is not professionalism, but hack. It's all the same what to call professional builders, for example, Tajik migrant workers who are at a construction site today, but tomorrow they will be on improvement, and in a month will return home to harvest.
                The criterion of duration is also necessary, in fact, for the same reasons.
                As for interruptions in military affairs for debauchery, hunting and drunkenness, that is, for entertainment, since these occupations do not bring income, and, on the contrary, they cannot affect the professional status of a soldier.
                If a group of young people, first with weapons in their hands, serves one person, then another, then they simply rob, and then a year or two rests on funds received for the service, and (or) looted funds, but when these funds run out again they go to fight, then yes, these are professional warriors.
                The main criteria of professionalism in any business is that this business should bring specific people primary income for a long time.
                Before starting a discussion, in this case, we had to define the terms. Apparently, we understand the concept of "professional warrior" in different ways, and this is the main disagreement. Although I did not know about the constant presence of the Scythians in Athens.
                When did they sit there and for how long?
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 19 December 2020 14: 54
                  +3
                  What kind?

                  When did they sit there and for how long?

                  I answer both.
                  research on this topic was carried out by Balbina Boebler
                  Testimony of Andokides in his speech "On Peace". He writes that a little after 446, that is, before the Peloponnesian War, a detachment of 300 Scythian archers was formed.
                  Scythian archers on Attic vases appear even earlier - about 500 BC

                  Scythian archers are referred to as police in Athens in the comedies of Lysistratus and the women at the festival of Thesmophorius 411 year. Specifically about them it is known that they were the so-called "social slaves" Therefore, I do not insist on their mercenary activity.

                  Two statues of Scythians in national clothes were found at the tomb of Dionysius of Athens and dated 345-338 years. Later, a treasure of 80 bronze arrowheads was found nearby, which makes it possible to connect the place with posthumous offerings, although the graves of the Scythians themselves have not been found.
                  In Athens, 7 grave steles were found, correlated with the Scythians.

                  Bebler writes that the Scythians lived in barracks and tents, first at the Agora, then at the Areopagus

                  Gavronsky has 1000 Scythians in Athens. He refers to a source I do not understand see Suda: tau 772 sv: τοξόται.
                  Only the last word is clear to me.)
                2. Engineer
                  Engineer 19 December 2020 15: 02
                  +3
                  Before starting a discussion, in this case, we had to define the terms. Apparently, we understand the concept of "professional warrior" in different ways and the main disagreement is precisely in this

                  I do not like these disputes over terminology
                  You have given very strict criteria in advance. Most Swiss of the 15-16th century will not fit them. For them, war is a waste of life
                  Urs Graf, for example, trained as a silversmith. I did not find a job and became a mercenary. Between campaigns he sat in Switzerland, painted. We do not know his personal accounting. What is the main source of income will not be determined even by the best tax one)
                  If a group of young people, first with weapons in their hands, serves one person, then another, then they simply rob, and then a year or two rests on funds received for the service, and (or) looted funds, but when these funds run out again they go to fight, then yes, these are professional warriors.

                  Then record the tribal squads as a pro without hesitation. They did not milk the mares and graze the cattle.
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 19 December 2020 17: 19
                    +3
                    Quote: Engineer
                    Urs Graf, for example, trained as a silversmith. I did not find a job and became a mercenary. Between campaigns he sat in Switzerland, painted. We do not know his personal accounting. What is the main source of income will not be determined even by the best tax

                    Denis, are the concepts of "mercenary" and "professional warrior" identical for you? Personally, I see a significant difference in them precisely on the basis of "basic income".
                    And yes, I agree that tribal squads, if they did not do anything other than squad functions (war, law enforcement, etc.), were associations of professional soldiers.
                    In your opinion, it turns out that a professional in some area can be called anyone who is currently working in this area and receives a reward for it. I wrote about twenty articles on VO and received some kind of reward for it, but you won't call me a professional author, right?
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 19 December 2020 17: 52
                      +4
                      Denis, are the concepts of "mercenary" and "professional warrior" identical for you?


                      Rather yes than no. But again, this is a conditional criterion.
                      As soon as we start digging, we find an infinite variety of shapes.

                      The Roman legionnaire retired after 25 years of service. He owns the site, he has slaves, keeps order, pokes his nose at the slave-manager. He is no longer a professional warrior. OK
                      8 years later the Franks broke through the Limes. He is urgently taken to Vexillaria for several months. There is no money for the salary. Only on the crew, which will be taken from him after emergency service. Is he still not a professional?

                      Here is a Seleucid military colonist. He grew up in the family of a retired military colonist. For him, the service is hereditary. There are weapons in the house and he is going through training camps. But there is peace in the state and for years he has been helping his father to feed on the plot, doing household work. Is he not a professional? Militia.? And will he become a professional only if a protracted war begins when he will be paid a salary for service in distant lands? ... And then he will return to a peaceful life for several years and again lose the title of pro?

                      You are a ministerial knight from Lower Germany. You serve as an administrator-manager at the local count and for this you own the fief that feeds you. at the same time, no one canceled the vassal military service and the training of the knight. Are you a professional warrior or not?

                      It's easiest for me to call them professionals. Than to calculate how much each received income and from what activity, the more it is in the vast majority of cases impossible in principle.

                      There is no edge and I cannot find it.

                      Threat It turned out vaguely. It's the same with mercenaries. Today is an artisan, tomorrow you poke a lance. After tomorrow you sit at home again, work. Recruiters, let's say no, you have to wait
                      1. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 20 December 2020 16: 53
                        +2
                        Greetings, Denis.
                        Yesterday I did not manage to substantively answer your last messages, and I read them already on the run, which I honestly warned about, but the message did not get through, apparently I closed the tab too quickly.
                        About the presence of the Scythians in Athens.
                        From the given data it follows only that they were there and were for quite a long time on an ongoing basis, but it is completely unclear in what capacity. The most logical assumption, of course, is that as a limited military contingent, but it could be, for example, a permanent trade mission modeled on the Gothic court in Novgorod, or even just a kind of ghetto of some slaves or freedmen. But, nevertheless, thanks, about the proven constant presence of the Scythians in Athens, I repeat, I did not know, it might come in handy. smile
                        As for professionalism, the line here is really thin and vague, before the start of our discussion I did not seriously think about it and I understood the concept of a professional clearly and specifically - a certain activity is the main source of income. For a military professional, this is a salary and (or) "collecting trophies from the population." Is the knight managing his manor on behalf of the lord a military professional - yes, since the manor was given to him for his service and, in fact, so that he was always ready for this service. That is, the very process of managing this estate is a service and can be attributed, roughly speaking, to the logistics service.
                        But then the problems begin. The heirs of these knights, sitting on the same estates, gradually lose their status as a military professional, and, for example, by the XNUMXth century. many of them are very, very far from the war. One end of the chain is a purely professional military man, the other is not a military one from the word "absolutely". In the middle there are intermediate options. Was a military professional, for example, such an odious hero as Louis de Clermont Senor de Bussy d'Amboise? I can't say for sure.
                        I do not want to introduce a term like "semi-professional" or "partially professional". smile
                        I propose to agree that the concept of "professional warrior" in this context has no clear boundaries and therefore cannot be defined.
                      2. Engineer
                        Engineer 20 December 2020 18: 15
                        +1
                        but it is completely unclear in what quality

                        All written sources use the phrase "Scythian archers". Toksotay τοξόται or whatever, and not just "Scythians"
                        The most logical assumption, of course, is that as a limited military contingent

                        Percent 90

                        I propose to agree that the concept of "professional warrior" in this context has no clear boundaries and therefore cannot be defined.

                        Here I agree. I don't like controversy over terminology. I remember reading the scientific controversy whether feudalism and feudal relations existed in the ancient world. Just controversy around words. Without trying to get to the bottom of it. Awful
                      3. Trilobite Master
                        Trilobite Master 20 December 2020 18: 18
                        +2
                        Yesterday I failed to send one message, but today I got one message twice. smile
                        Well, I am glad that this time we did not quarrel. smile
                      4. Engineer
                        Engineer 20 December 2020 18: 20
                        +1
                        We will still have time)
                3. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 20 December 2020 16: 55
                  +1
                  Greetings, Denis.
                  Yesterday I did not manage to substantively answer your last messages, and I read them already on the run, which I honestly warned about, but the message did not get through, apparently I closed the tab too quickly.
                  About the presence of the Scythians in Athens.
                  From the given data it follows only that they were there and were for quite a long time on an ongoing basis, but it is completely unclear in what capacity. The most logical assumption, of course, is that as a limited military contingent, but it could be, for example, a permanent trade mission modeled on the Gothic court in Novgorod, or even just a kind of ghetto of some slaves or freedmen. But, nevertheless, thanks, about the proven constant presence of the Scythians in Athens, I repeat, I did not know, it might come in handy. smile
                  As for professionalism, the line here is really thin and vague, before the start of our discussion I did not seriously think about it and I understood the concept of a professional clearly and specifically - a certain activity is the main source of income. For a military professional, this is a salary and (or) "collecting trophies from the population." Is the knight managing his manor on behalf of the lord a military professional - yes, since the manor was given to him for his service and, in fact, so that he was always ready for this service. That is, the very process of managing this estate is a service and can be attributed, roughly speaking, to the logistics service.
                  But then the problems begin. The heirs of these knights, sitting on the same estates, gradually lose their status as a military professional, and, for example, by the XNUMXth century. many of them are very, very far from the war. One end of the chain is a purely professional military man, the other is not a military one from the word "absolutely". In the middle there are intermediate options. Was a military professional, for example, such an odious hero as Louis de Clermont Senor de Bussy d'Amboise? I can't say for sure.
                  I do not want to introduce a term like "semi-professional" or "partially professional". smile
                  I propose to agree that the concept of "professional warrior" in this context has no clear boundaries and therefore cannot be defined.
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 14: 07
      +3
      Quote: Engineer
      These soldiers were in Athens on a permanent basis. And this was reflected in the documents.


      What kind?
      In Sparta, Corinth, Kirkia and other policies - yes! In Athens, only carriages of triremes and only for the period of wars. Otherwise, they are citizens of Athens.
      1. Engineer
        Engineer 19 December 2020 14: 55
        +2
        What kind?

        Answered above to Michael
  • Fat
    Fat 19 December 2020 15: 01
    +2
    Quote: Engineer
    .... 20 thousand from an average settlement is too much, probably ...

    The author did not write about thousands of soldiers ... but about no more than 20 professionals, or did I miss something?
    1. Engineer
      Engineer 19 December 2020 15: 06
      +4
      I have already repented of my carelessness)
  • Bar1
    Bar1 19 December 2020 12: 42
    -4
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    The average Bosporan settlement of that time could hardly have fielded more than a couple of dozen warriors

    Where are these numbers from? I am not trying to dispute them, I am asking - from where? What is the population of the "middle Bosporan settlement"? What is it

    This topic is worthy of a doctoral dissertation, no less. Rumors are taken, multiplied by speculation, links to authorizations are added, and now a new historical specialist on the Bosporan subject is ready. As a result, there is another gap in the state budget in the amount of salary for this historian.
    1. kalibr
      kalibr 19 December 2020 12: 58
      +6
      Quote: Bar1
      Rumors are taken, multiplied by speculation, links to authorizations are added, and now a new historical specialist on the Bosporus theme is ready.

      Inscriptions on stones, seals, texts of ancient authors, excavation data are taken and - it's done. Here on the Zolotarevskoe settlement ... you can take the monograph by prof. Belorybkin and see at what level this is done.
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 19 December 2020 13: 04
      +8
      Bar, what are you doing again? Haven't you been whipped for a long time? Did you miss?
      Let it be known to you that there are several methods for determining the population of ancient cities and the mobilization potential of this population. The methods are specified, they are checked against the available sources, with archaeological data, in short, complex intellectual work is being carried out for your brain completely inaccessible and therefore seems empty and unnecessary to you. Nevertheless, carrying out this work makes it possible, with a certain accuracy, to make assumptions about the size of the armies of a particular time, of a particular state. In this case, it is necessary to know the area occupied by this or that settlement in a certain era, the building density on this area and some other data, which is a useless task to bother you. Based on these data, it is possible to establish the population size of a given point and, accordingly, its mobilization resource.
      And to you personally, I will say this.
      If you are not yet convinced of your own intellectual inconsistency, then only and exclusively because of this very inconsistency.
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 19 December 2020 14: 15
        -2
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        Bar, what are you doing again? Haven't you been whipped for a long time? Did you miss?

        when there is no success in the surrounding reality, then you have to turn to the illusory reality - from the foot, in your case. You constantly think more than what actually happens, like: "... I refuted him, and he again," but in fact he refuted only himself. Here it is necessary to somehow return to objective reality with the help of, for example, a special tool, like in Khoja Nasreddin's - a rope loop and a stick on the head, so that when the loop on the head is twisted, all two-dimensional images that are perceived as reality would climb out of it and then suddenly it would appear that the world is different.

        Quote: Trilobite Master
        In this case, it is necessary to know the area occupied by this or that settlement in a certain era, the building density on this area and some other data, which is a useless task to bother you.


        cool, to know the area and density of the building and then the population is obtained. For such "techniques" you have to hit on the head with a stick to knock out the crap, what it seems. These are not methods for determining the number of population. Fu, but the density of the population itself? What about the areas where rich and poor live? There are different densities. And the life expectancy and therefore the accounting of the working population. Is it that everything is visible from 2.5 thousand years? Some questions.
        And most importantly, the first and foremost question is DATIROVOK. When was it? Nobody believes you here for a long time.

        If you are not yet convinced of your own intellectual inconsistency, then only and exclusively because of this very inconsistency.


        I remain with the intellectual, and you can leave the inconsistency to yourself.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 19 December 2020 16: 49
          +4
          There is such a science - archeology. She just deals with all the issues that you have listed - both population density and its wealth and average age, as well as many others. As for dating, a lot of literature is also devoted to this issue - ways to get the date, how to check the dates obtained - to the fig.
          No, how healthy it is after all, probably to live like you. Fomenko did not write about something - it means that it is not. Someone else wrote - it means he lied. laughing All the angles are straight, the colors are black or white, no more is needed, indeed, subtleties and nuances are for weaklings, and "many knowledge - many sorrows" ...
          Okay ... Something is missing in my mood with you ... let's call it the word "communicate". I'm bored of something. For this I say goodbye. hi
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 19 December 2020 17: 17
            -2
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            There is such a science - archeology.

            archeology is primarily about the interpretation of artifacts.
            On Troy it is not written that this is Troy, and on Sarai it is not written that this is Sarai and even in Pompeii it is not written that this is Pompeii. This is all invented by historians. And they still lie, as in the case of the Code of Law of 1497. Archaeologists are simply grave-diggers, and artifacts are labeled by historians.

            As for Fomenko, this is not so: Fomenko was needed in order to start thinking about what was happening, and there is a full Internet of facts now, so I have been using my head for a long time.

            As for the dating methods, not only Fomenko, but those who are engaged in research using RU-analysis note that this technique is VERY inaccurate. Therefore, the strange accuracy of antiquity (when carriers, parchment, papyrus suddenly survived to this day after 2 thousand years. ) and the inaccuracies of the Middle Ages say only one thing, that antiquity is a fictional reality, this was not the case.
      2. Fat
        Fat 19 December 2020 15: 21
        +4
        Leave it, Mikhail. Faith - it is not shaken, and "flogging" only strengthens the belief in the firmness of the position. Timur is unapproachable in terms of brain cleansing. Reasonable reasoning can only be helpful when the person has doubts. Bar1 has no hesitation, and that's great ...
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 19 December 2020 16: 52
          +4
          Quote: Thick
          Bar1 has no hesitation

          Yes. I am glad that there are still few of them.
          1. Fat
            Fat 19 December 2020 17: 41
            +2
            Yours is not true, there are many such people. Apparently, you had limited encounters with such people. They cleaned my brain during those times. Many knowledge - many sorrows. On a patriotic wave, it is not a question to get an idea in ... But a couple of times having run into the tension of the "owl on the globe" doubts rule. I had to give up a lot and rethink a lot. Rough, like the inscription in the toilet above the urinal - "do not flatter yourself - come closer" ... And so it is - Occam's Razor. Give me the opportunity, I will compose this - you will never refute ... At the root - a wrong attempt to assess the past from the point of view of the modern man in the street. There is no paradox, as some are trying to hook up for the hype.
            And even though Timur is now soaring in controversy, I, for example, have passed this phase. No need to think it over, you need to eat what is in nature ...
            1. kalibr
              kalibr 19 December 2020 22: 13
              +3
              Andrei! In the 70s, I firmly believed that the Baalbek terrace was built by aliens, I gave lectures about it on the line of the OK Komsomol. Deniken was my idol, like Kazantsev. And then ... I read more books, counted a little, observed ... and was cured.
              1. Fat
                Fat 19 December 2020 22: 32
                +3
                So you, like any "abnormal" brain, know how to use ... And normal ones are always aware of the political situation, "follow the flagship." I don’t remember, unfortunately, but the naval ones have such a word that fully describes the situation. Yes, what a pity I forgot ... That word is voluminous ... According to the military, not in the eyebrow, but in the eye.
                Sorry, I hope the epithet "abnormal" did not offend you ... For me this is a high degree of recognition, honestly.
                1. Fat
                  Fat 19 December 2020 22: 51
                  +2
                  And yes, I remembered ... "matelots"
                2. kalibr
                  kalibr 20 December 2020 08: 06
                  +2
                  There is nothing to be offended here, Andrey. All clear. I know one pensioner, like me. A former loader and drinker. So he knows everything about our policy. Who, when, who recruited, how many billions were taken out ... I ask: how do you know? And they said on TV! ????? But so ...
  • PhilipKDick
    19 December 2020 15: 03
    +6
    Hello, thanks for your feedback. There was a list, but it was excluded by the moderators or the editor (or I did something wrong in the formation of the article).
    In the article, he mainly relied on the work of Gaidukevich, Goroncharovsky, Vinogradov and Zubar.

    Also directly in the text. In the article, I gave assumptions (not my own) about the number and so on. Unfortunately, I did not have enough sources to describe those events as accurately as possible. And I did not want to invent and will not.
    Thank you again.
    1. ccsr
      ccsr 20 December 2020 10: 50
      +2
      Quote: PhilipKDick
      In the article, he mainly relied on the work of Gaidukevich, Goroncharovsky, Vinogradov and Zubar.

      There is another very respected historian V.D. Blavatsky, whose work (1953) is referred to by a modern author, and where the number of the Bosporus kingdom and the number of mercenaries in his service are indicated:

      So, the population in Olbia is 10-000 people, in the Chersonesus state - 15-000 people, in the Bosporus kingdom - 150-000 people. These numbers fully correspond to the correlation of forces that were between these states for almost the entire duration of their history.
      .... The largest expense item of the Bosporus kingdom was the maintenance of the mercenary army. As one of the inscriptions found in Panticapaeum shows, the Arcadians served as mercenaries for the Bosporan king Leukon I. More detailed information is given to us by Diodorus of Siculus about the composition of the army of the Bosporan king Satyr, son of Perisad, 310/309. BC e. His army consisted of 2000 Hellenic and the same number of Thracian mercenaries.

      http://www.evpatori.ru/o-naselenii-razmerax-i-byudzhete-bosporskogo-carstva.html
  • Undecim
    Undecim 19 December 2020 12: 51
    +8
    But what prompted the Greeks to abandon their homes and go to such distant lands in search of a new home? Today, many scientists agree that the most significant reason for such massive colonization was the ongoing war between the Hellenes and the Persians.
    Greek organized colonial expansion in the Mediterranean and Black Sea regions began almost three hundred years before the Greco-Persian wars, with the formation of a slave-owning society in Greece and was the result of relative overpopulation - the pressure of a surplus of population on productive forces at a low level of development of the latter, when it was necessary to preserve the viability of society limit the number of people per unit area.
    And this process did not happen spontaneously. but organized. Even the head of the resettlement, an oikist, was most often officially appointed, although in some cases he was elected.
    The place for the colony was chosen in advance, taking into account the proximity of trade routes and security.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 14: 10
      +4
      I'll add it myself. In some cases, this was reflected in contracts between policies. Although wars between the former metropolis and the colonies were not uncommon. Especially in this Aegina was noted.
    2. PhilipKDick
      19 December 2020 15: 19
      +5
      I agree with the opinion about organized colonization.
      There are opinions that the Greeks in the Bosporus were at the very beginning of the XNUMXth century BC. e.
      However, the article deals with the reasons for the mass transition and the formation of several policies at once.
      1. kalibr
        kalibr 19 December 2020 15: 40
        +2
        Images of local warriors have been found on the walls of tombs at Panticapaeum. I don't know if there is a photo of them on the web.
      2. Undecim
        Undecim 19 December 2020 15: 59
        +3
        The bulk of the colonists throughout the entire period of Greek colonization were completely or partially landless peasants.
    3. kalibr
      kalibr 19 December 2020 15: 40
      +2
      Quote: Undecim
      The place for the colony was chosen in advance, taking into account the proximity of trade routes and security.

      And so that the wheat grows! The colonies supplied bread to the metropolis, receiving olive oil and wine.
  • Van 16
    Van 16 19 December 2020 14: 36
    +3
    Thanks to the author and success! A good start, it will be interesting to read further.
  • Jünger
    Jünger 20 December 2020 16: 29
    +1
    Great article!
  • zenion
    zenion 20 December 2020 20: 22
    0
    The Bosporan Kingdom is thousands of years old. Compared to the kingdom of the Caves, this is ugh, because the Cave Kingdom has existed for more than ten thousand years and even hundreds of thousands of years.
  • faterdom
    faterdom 20 December 2020 23: 44
    0
    And a springboard for raids among many barbarian tribes.

    For starters, the article is interesting, of course.
    But this proposal needs proofreading, otherwise it has at least two opposite meanings.
  • andrew42
    andrew42 20 January 2021 17: 00
    0
    A very interesting topic. The question is, is there any mention (evidence) of any specific representative of the Archeanaktids -? Without proper names, it's somehow uncomfortable.
    1. PhilipKDick
      21 January 2021 07: 54
      0
      Hello. Unfortunately, to date, no such sources have been found.