Military Review

Chinese army in World War II - many people, little sense

90

Battle with Japan



In fact, for China, the colossal military conflict that shook countries and continents from 1939 to 1945 is a pure abstraction. This country had its own battle - with Japan, which is part of the Second World War very conditionally. It began earlier, in 1937, and, of course, ended with the surrender of Tokyo in 1945.

At the same time, someone may have a reasonable question: how did it happen that tiny Japan managed to defeat, occupy and terrorize huge China for many years? The answer, as you might guess, is in comparison of the fighting qualities of the fighting armies.

It is easiest to say that the Chinese army had a lot at the time of the outbreak of hostilities with Japan. People ... The total number of nominally "under arms" at that time exceeded 2 million people in the Celestial Empire. By 1941, that number had risen to nearly 4 million. True, the key word here is, alas, “nominally”.

The country did not have a unified armed forces, as such. The commander-in-chief of the National Revolutionary Army of the Republic of China (NRA), Chiang Kai-shek, was actually subordinate to no more than three hundred thousand people. The rest of the forces were scattered into divisions, each of which was commanded by a general who imagined himself to be the most important and did not want to follow anyone's orders.

There were also communists who were mercilessly at odds with the Kuomintang (who ruled the Chinese Republic), but in the face of the Japanese threat (and on the advice of senior comrades from the USSR) rallied with him in the United Front to fight the invaders. The whole 8th Army was formed from the forces of the CPC, numbering at various times from 300 thousand to a million people.

In the battles, the Communists showed themselves pretty well. Their actions were so successful that it raised concerns among Chiang Kai-shek. And the next army formed by the CCP (4th) was defeated by its own compatriots from the NRA. After that, of course, there could be no talk of any military alliance between the CPC and the Kuomintang.

There was not enough unity


So, what did the Chinese army lack? As it is already clear from the above, unity. The discipline was also just awful. Mass desertion, non-observance of orders, and the like were common. We can say ordinary. There was no question of combat training at all. A certain number of "personnel" divisions of the NRA were trained by German specialists, and a certain number of the same pilots or tankmen were trained by advisers from the USSR and later the USA.

However, talking about some kind of professionalism of the Chinese military at that time is simply inappropriate. Of the 300-plus divisions that China had in 1941 on paper, a maximum of 40 were somehow trained. Basically, it was untrained, badly armed and equipped mass of people, led by "commanders" with very dubious qualities ...

China practically did not have its own military industry. Local arsenals still managed to cope with the production of copies of German, Czech, American rifles and machine guns, but you yourself can imagine what quality these "clones" were. Therefore, the "elite" units of the NRA, trained by German instructors, flaunted the real Gewehr 98 and Kar.98k. Yes, in addition, they wore M35 helmets (habitually associated with you with the Nazi invaders). Which China itself produced and bought in Germany in literally hundreds of thousands. By the way, with regard to equipment, leather boots in the Chinese army were the privilege of exclusively senior officers. The soldiers walked in shoes made of straw and rags ...

In general, the arsenal of the NRA and other armed formations of the Celestial Empire at that time was something incredibly colorful and diverse. Rifles, machine guns and other small arms weapon there could be found literally from all countries that produced such - German, French, English, Belgian, Italian, Soviet, American and God knows what else. There was very little artillery, and it was represented mainly by Soviet and German models. With armored vehicles, things were about the same - our T-26s and an unimaginable jumble of outdated German, English and even Italian models.

Aviation in the Chinese army, as such, it appeared in periods when the allies began to provide it with intensive military assistance. Initially (in the period 1937-1941) it was done by the USSR, later by the USA. Airplanes, as a rule, had to be delivered "complete" with pilots. It was much easier and more effective than trying to train local personnel, although work was carried out in this direction as well.

Soviet aid


Generally speaking, at the first stage of its war with Japan, the Soviet Union provided China with very effective and large-scale military assistance in all possible areas - from direct supplies of weapons, ammunition and equipment, as well as the provision of military advisers to the construction of defense enterprises.

The aid was curtailed, firstly, because of the anti-Soviet position of the Kuomintang, and secondly, because of the signing of a neutrality pact with Japan in April 1941. The war with Germany was about to begin, and the border in the East had to be secured at any cost.

The United States helped the Chinese Army under Lend-Lease. However, the problem was that at the beginning of their deliveries, the country was almost completely blocked by the Japanese. As a result, the army of the Celestial Empire throughout the war experienced a severe shortage of weapons, ammunition and everything else.

It is not surprising that the human losses of the Chinese armed forces at various stages of hostilities exceeded the Japanese ones by 5 or even 8 times.

In addition, the situation was aggravated by the continuous confrontation between the Kuomintang and the Communists, at times moving from neutrality armed to the teeth to open bloody clashes.

In fact, the surrender of the Japanese forces on the territory of China and the victory of the Celestial Empire on September 9, 1945 were due solely to the defeat that the "invincible" Kwantung Army suffered from the USSR Red Army.
Author:
Photos used:
Photo from Wikipedia National Revolutionary Army of China
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  1. Far B
    Far B 17 December 2020 05: 09
    +26
    The "patchwork" of China as a whole and its army in particular is perfectly described in the Book "Special Region of China", which was written by our famous weightlifter Y. Vlasov based on the diaries of his father (stepfather), who was the USSR special representative in that "Special Region" (controlled by Mao's forces). Vlasov, by the way, published a book under the name of his stepfather to pay tribute to him. Good, by the way, work, easy to read, and only the textures in it - the sea. Naturally, the author was assisted in writing by "realists from the KGB", which was reflected in the general emotional background of the narrative: the book was written in the 70s, when our relations with the PRC were very different. But on the whole - a very worthy thing.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 17 December 2020 05: 27
      +10
      Great book. I also liked it at school.
    2. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 17 December 2020 06: 04
      +12
      Quote: Dalny V
      The "patchwork" of China as a whole and its army in particular is perfectly described in the Book "Special Region of China", which was written by our famous weightlifter Y. Vlasov based on the diaries of his father (stepfather), who was the USSR special representative in that "Special Region" (controlled by Mao's forces). Vlasov, by the way, published a book under the name of his stepfather to pay tribute to him. Good, by the way, work, easy to read, and only the textures in it - the sea.

      I apologize, I will indicate the link, because the book is very interesting.
      http://booksonline.com.ua/view.php?book=149694
      1. polar fox
        polar fox 17 December 2020 14: 44
        0
        Quote: Aerodrome
        http://booksonline.com.ua/view.php?book=149694

        for the link - a huge thanks)))
      2. napalm
        napalm 21 December 2020 17: 16
        0
        Thanks for the link really interesting.
    3. Sergey Oreshin
      Sergey Oreshin 18 December 2020 18: 30
      +4
      Well, by the way, judging by this book, the communists also did not fight the Japanese too much, but preferred to sit out in the "Special District" and wait, who will take it.
      1. volodimer
        volodimer 20 December 2020 14: 58
        +2
        That's why China was "patchy". Everyone believed that it was enough to control part of the territory. The communists sat where the Japanese threatened them little. The Kuomintang was worse off, but we and the Yaneks helped them. As a result, they were almost kicked to fight together. And by the way, when they succeeded, they weighed the real splashes to the yapas. The title is correct: "there are many people, little sense"
  2. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 17 December 2020 05: 15
    +5
    Thanks to the author for the article ... for the sake of interest I watched Chinese feature films dedicated to this period of China ... I was shocked by them ... bang bang oh oh oh all the samurai home down with.
    The only real film was about the battle for Nanjing ... where the Japanese staged a massive massacre of the Chinese after its capture.
    1. Moskovit
      Moskovit 17 December 2020 08: 02
      +5
      Their TV is full of TV shows about this war. Millions of Japanese died there. I was also a little shocked that they showed in a very naturalistic way the torture and terror of the Japanese towards the civilian population ...
    2. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 17 December 2020 17: 49
      -11%
      Quote: Moskovit
      Millions of Japanese died there

      You still cry for the Japanese invaders and executioners, as Kolenka cried from Urengoy. fool
    3. Sergey Oreshin
      Sergey Oreshin 18 December 2020 18: 06
      +2
      So in their films about the Opium Wars, brave Chinese soldiers playfully defeat huge armies of the British and French, although in reality in those wars it was the Chinese who suffered the most severe defeats from small but well-armed, equipped and trained European armies.
    4. andrew42
      andrew42 22 January 2021 15: 48
      0
      I lived in China from 2009 to 2011. I saw enough of their military-patriotic serials right up to the hiccups - on TV channels every day, more than once. The most interesting thing that smiled at me was that there is a war, which is a year, the Kuomintang, the Communists, the evil-evil Japanese, but the fighting according to the plot is 3% or less. Four typical scenes: 1) the patriotic Chinese eat / drink tea and have a "smart conversation" (the Kuomintang essno in furnished rooms, the communists are obligatory in some hut), 2) the Kuomintang officers deliberately cheerfully report and receive reports in a non-combat situation (apparently puffing out the cheeks with aplomb should make you feel and feel sorry for the victims of force majeure, profiting the country), 3) comrades in the trench (before / or after the battles) are again eating stew. 4) Red patronless people with bags of explosives at the cost of their lives undermine fortified firing points with dozens of dandy Kuomintang men, armed to the teeth, the latter falling in dozens from one round from the barrel. Although it is worth noting, there were also a couple of fresh full-length feature films with "fighting" and a solid storyline, really worthy, at the level of "The Living and the Dead" and "Panfilov's 28". Closer to 2011. But this is rather an exception in the Chinese portrayal of that war. By the way, the stores offered on disks were quite a few Soviet war films, in Chinese voice acting, and not only military ones.
  3. Catfish
    Catfish 17 December 2020 05: 48
    +18
    Here is a completely unimaginable construction of Chinese handicraft art. I could really make out only two PATENT inscriptions, moreover, made twice in a row. Perhaps this thing also fired.

    But this was done, perhaps, after the surrender of Japan, but the compilation is too good, a sort of Thompson-Sudaev. laughing
    1. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 17 December 2020 06: 07
      +6
      Quote: Sea Cat
      a sort of Thompson-Sudaev.

      nizachot, there is no "flame arrester" laughing
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 17 December 2020 07: 14
        +6
        There was nothing to do with the carving. laughing
    2. Undecim
      Undecim 17 December 2020 09: 36
      +9
      Here is a completely unimaginable construction of Chinese handicraft art. I could really make out only two PATENT inscriptions, moreover, made twice in a row. Maybe this thing also shot
      She shot quite well. Moreover, we must pay tribute to the unknown Chinese craftsman, who so originally changed the base sample - Browning M1900, by adding some elements of the Mauser C-96.

      And he was equipped from a clip, like the Mauser C96. Judging by the fact that such pistols are still found at auctions, moreover in good condition, they have produced quite a lot.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 17 December 2020 09: 58
        +4
        That's right, I just didn't understand one thing, what part serves as a barrel, upper or lower?
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 17 December 2020 10: 21
          +7

          The trunk is at the bottom.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 17 December 2020 11: 06
            +3
            Vic, what cartridge does he have?
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 17 December 2020 11: 22
              +3
              It seems like a native, 7,65x17.
    3. BAI
      BAI 17 December 2020 10: 01
      +3
      a sort of Thompson-Sudaev

      Conversion of the American Thompson submachine gun chambered for 7,62x25TT with a magazine from PPS-43
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 17 December 2020 10: 07
        +4
        Which is visible to the naked eye.
  4. tasha
    tasha 17 December 2020 05: 49
    +5
    There were also communists who were mercilessly at war with the Kuomintang (who ruled the Republic of China)

    Those who fought mercilessly - these are two words about the Civil War going on in the country since 1927 (!)
  5. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 17 December 2020 06: 15
    +17
    China as a single state ceased to exist since 1911, when the emperor was overthrown and the monarchy in China ceased to exist. So it’s not surprising that little Japan was beating huge China. The Chinese troops fought in isolation, did not have a common command, were armed extremely badly, the soldiers and commanders had practically no combat training. If not for Comrade Stalin, who saw China as a communist and his friend and ally against the capitalist countries - primarily against the United States, Britain and Japan, then today's China would not have included Tibet, Uyguristan and Manchuria. It is possible that China would be divided into South and North, where the border between South and North China would run along the Yangtze River. It was not for nothing that Mao respected Stalin very much, and after Khrushchev threw mud and slander on him, relations between the PRC and the USSR deteriorated sharply.
    1. Revolver
      Revolver 17 December 2020 07: 04
      +8
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      China would not have included Tibet, Uyguristan, and Manchuria. It is possible that China would be divided into South and North, where the border between South and North China would run along the Yangtze River.

      And most likely such "none", and in addition, China smoked with opium would be an order of magnitude less of a problem for the entire world order.
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 17 December 2020 07: 29
        +1
        And in what way is China causing problems for the "world order"? In my opinion, the main problem of the world order is the United States. Alternatively, Aleksashka II was gifted, not only did he sell Alaska and liberalize with revolutionaries and terrorists, he also supported the United States in their war with CSA. If the South defended its independence, then given the hatred of the southerners and northerners for each other, they would pay more attention to their hostile neighbor than they would arrange coups and wars around the world.
        1. Blackmokona
          Blackmokona 17 December 2020 08: 15
          -3
          The South wins, and the North annexes. And we get an even more aggressive version of the United States. Those who want to vindicate everyone in the literal sense and are not at all worried about any rights and tolerance there
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 17 December 2020 08: 55
            +4
            Don't write nonsense. First, the South did not set itself the goal of conquering the North and annexing it to itself. The South fought to secede from the United States. Secondly, the South physically could not defeat the North, the population of the South was 9 million people, of which only 6 million were white, while in the North there were 22 million people, and almost all of them were white. The industry of the South was also an order of magnitude inferior to the industry of the North. Plus, thanks to naval superiority, the northerners' fleet blocked the ports of the South, while 500-700 thousand migrants from Europe arrived in the North every year, many of whom immediately upon arrival, signed up for the army at the port, since the North army paid well.
            1. Blackmokona
              Blackmokona 17 December 2020 09: 36
              -1
              You are describing why the North would have won the war anyway.
              1. Kot_Kuzya
                Kot_Kuzya 17 December 2020 10: 08
                +2
                If Russia, Britain and France recognized the CSA and roared at the United States against the blockade of the South, then the South would defend its independence.
                1. Blackmokona
                  Blackmokona 17 December 2020 11: 21
                  0
                  Well, yes, such enemies bam and united on the war in some former colony.
            2. saigon
              saigon 17 December 2020 17: 03
              +8
              Well, it seems so, but there were a few nuances.
              Actually, as a single country, Sashka was with a huge stretch, I will not say what goals for secession were in the south, but from the north there was a banal desire to crush the competitor and rob. The South produced a lot of agricultural products and the main supplies went to England and the loot floated past the northerners, but it's a pity.
              Well, they started a war, and it seems like for the liberation of blacks from slavery, yeah.
              Well, you can look for materials about WHITE slaves of the north and blacks in the armies of the southerners, fascinating reading.
              1. napalm
                napalm 21 December 2020 17: 50
                +2
                Nothing passed by the northerners, everything passed through them. And back trade is also through them, in three ways. The southerners wanted to supply cotton directly to England, remove the middleman, and then it began. And what about white slaves in the north and black slaves in the south, yes, that’s all, it’s not enough to read. And how southerners, young people, mostly hungry, in rags, really fought without ammunition !!!
            3. Alf
              Alf 17 December 2020 19: 02
              +7
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              The industry of the South was also an order of magnitude inferior to the industry of the North.

              Yielded ???? Yes, in the South, by and large, there was no industry at all.
        2. Sergey Oreshin
          Sergey Oreshin 18 December 2020 18: 23
          +5
          In fact, as of the 19th century, the United States and the Russian Empire were, if not allies, then in quite friendly relations. Britain was their main enemy.
          Accordingly, during the Crimean War, the Americans were pro-Russian and even warned the Russian command in Kamchatka about the impending British attack on Petropavlovsk.
          During the Civil War in the United States, Britain actively supported the South, respectively Russia - the North. And it was precisely the entry of the Russian fleet into the ports of the North in 1863 that largely forced Britain to abandon the official recognition of the CSA and send its ships to help them. Because Alexander made it clear that if British troops appeared in the South, then the Russians could appear in the North.
          Alaska was sold because they did not have any income from it by that time, it was extremely difficult to defend it and there was a high probability that the British from Canada would simply seize it. Therefore, they decided to sell the United States so that the British would not get it. The Americans, too, did not quite understand why Alaska had surrendered to them, and many in Congress said that "we do not need this Morjovia for nothing"
          1. napalm
            napalm 21 December 2020 17: 56
            +2
            Gave a bribe to get the Americans to buy Alaska. And then return Alaska everywhere? On what basis, but because the money did not reach.
    2. sh3roman
      sh3roman 18 December 2020 21: 19
      0
      Relations deteriorated even under Stalin, when by the age of 50 Mao had a megalomaniac and he came to ask for a vigorous bomb. But, Comrade Stalin was not a very stupid person, although he was a tyrant and sent Mao to hell, but a chatterbox and not a very clever corn-hawk, he presented a yellow vigorous bomb, which we still hear around
    3. Kwas
      Kwas 19 December 2020 19: 47
      +1
      Yes, a new "three kingdoms" could begin. But in my opinion, empires such as China and Russia still end up uniting.
    4. Evgeny D
      Evgeny D 21 December 2020 12: 02
      +3
      Stalin gave Manchuria to China, but Mongolia did not. Stalin made many concessions to Mao, but they were not enough.
  6. serg.shishkov2015
    serg.shishkov2015 17 December 2020 06: 19
    +7
    Recently, from his manuscript, he wrote out the types of aircraft that were in China in 1937-1945 - more than 90 types, and with modifications-105. I do not pretend to be complete, especially in the list of a dozen and a half Japanese models, and in what state they were - ???? by country - even the Canadian Fleet-10, the Dutch are a couple of models, but most of all - the USA - 20 pieces, even a little forgotten firms - Ryan, Bellanca, there are also their own - but there is a complete shiz, including a solid wood copy of SB, 1 piece, broken into trials
  7. Toucan
    Toucan 17 December 2020 06: 20
    +13
    China practically did not have its own military industry. Local arsenals still somehow managed to make copies of German, Czech, American rifles and machine guns ...

    The author has not studied the issue very well. In Kuomintang China, licensed production of German artillery systems and ammunition was carried out. There is a lot of evidence for this. In general, the article is very superficial.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 17 December 2020 14: 11
      +5
      So it seemed to me too. The article is superficial. There was a civil war in China. And in parallel with the war with Japan, the Chinese "whites" and "reds" fought fiercely with each other.
  8. Revolver
    Revolver 17 December 2020 06: 56
    +6
    In the photo, as if the Germans were squinting laughing
  9. parusnik
    parusnik 17 December 2020 07: 27
    +10
    So, on the tops .. article ...
    1. Fat
      Fat 17 December 2020 10: 32
      +7
      Quote: parusnik
      So, on the tops .. article ...

      How else can you cover almost 15 years in one article? Of course, there will be no "details", only a general description ... In theory, we need a series of articles with an emphasis at least on the most significant events.
  10. mr.ZinGer
    mr.ZinGer 17 December 2020 08: 00
    +11
    This is the corporate identity of Mr. Kharaluzhny, to raise the topic and quietly merge, again where are the numbers and facts.
    I will wait for comments, there will be more information and the material is sharper.
  11. Olgovich
    Olgovich 17 December 2020 08: 03
    +12
    It began earlier, in 1937,

    No, it began even earlier, in 1931 amwhen the huge 300-strong Kwantung army occupied a significant area of ​​northern China (Manchuria), with battles and bombing of cities.
    1. Kwas
      Kwas 19 December 2020 19: 50
      +1
      Rightly noticed. By the way, do you have more or less reliable figures for Chinese losses (including civilians) during this time?
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 19 December 2020 20: 19
        0
        Quote: Kwas
        By the way, do you have more or less reliable figures for Chinese losses (including civilians) during this time?

        total losses of China from 5 to 15 million people - such a large spread. Nobody really considered ...
        1. Kwas
          Kwas 19 December 2020 20: 32
          0
          I met the figure of 25 million, but I don't remember where. One thing is clear - there was a specific genocide.
  12. tasha
    tasha 17 December 2020 08: 05
    +1
    There is a version that the authors of the well-known song "Favorite City" from the movie "Fighters" (1939) disguised in the text a hint where the comrade was flying:

    Comrade flies to a distant land,
    Native winds fly after him.
    Favorite city in the blue haze melts -
    A familiar home, a green garden and a gentle look.

    Who will find - that fellow wink
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 17 December 2020 09: 26
      -1
      Quote: tasha
      Native winds fly after him.

      Well, Duc, in temperate latitudes, the westerly wind direction prevails. So this song indicates that the comrade is flying east.
      1. tasha
        tasha 17 December 2020 10: 05
        +1
        The version is good, but there is a more explicit indication smile
      2. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 17 December 2020 10: 10
        +1
        The distant land may be in the south, and in the west, and in the east. In the north, hardly, north of the USSR only the Pole.
        Quote: tasha
        Favorite city in the blue haze melts -

        Information about nothing.
        Quote: tasha
        A familiar home, a green garden and a gentle look.

        There is such a thing in every home, where they are waiting for you at home.
        1. tasha
          tasha 18 December 2020 05: 33
          0
          I read that a line needs to be sung .. Remember the melody?
          Favorite city melts in a blue haze

          hi
          1. your1970
            your1970 21 December 2020 11: 11
            0
            Quote: tasha
            I read that a line needs to be sung .. Remember the melody?
            Favorite city in blue smokeketaeт

            hi
            - old joke ... very old ...
  13. Moskovit
    Moskovit 17 December 2020 08: 09
    +8
    There were articles on VO, where this tragic page in the history of the Chinese people was examined in more detail. For the Japanese, the war with China was not such an easy walk. Hundreds of thousands of Japanese remained forever in Chinese soil.
    By the way, older Chinese people still don't buy Japanese goods, don't drive Japanese cars, and have a negative attitude towards Japan. Young people don't care anymore, despite the huge propaganda stream of anti-Japanese films and programs.
    1. andrew42
      andrew42 22 January 2021 16: 00
      0
      Exactly! Ages 40 and older are curious about cars of Japanese brands, albeit made at a nearby factory! Nissan is a shame, but Dongfeng (at the same plant) is the norm. They didn't even want to take me to the Japanese "susharnya", they all rested. (despite the fact that "Chinese sushi" is solid rice, and under the Japanese sign it looks like sushi). However, this does not apply to the rich - expensive Japanese cars are quite valued for themselves.
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      1. Jünger
        Jünger 17 December 2020 09: 33
        0
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        some believe the tales of the liberals that China has captured the entire east of Russia up to Lake Baikal,

        Well, this is not the right place - I don't believe in that. They themselves will soon be torn to the British flag. the Americans will give the Japanese the go-ahead and the entire Ketai state will fall again. Well, as usual.
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        that the British killed hundreds of millions of Chinese through opium.

        No, not happy. Simply weakening a potentially hostile state by someone else's hands is a plus for our state. There are no friends for us in China. Even Kaiser Wilhelm warned about the yellow danger. Eliminating it is a good and righteous deed.
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        2. Kwas
          Kwas 19 December 2020 19: 53
          -3
          Quote: Junger
          Even Kaiser Wilhelm warned about the yellow danger. Eliminating it is a good and righteous deed.

          And you, my friend, are not a Nazi for an hour?
          1. Jünger
            Jünger 20 December 2020 16: 41
            0
            You are very smart, my friend. Will you be from the minorities yourself? wink
            1. Kwas
              Kwas 20 December 2020 18: 17
              -3
              You know, I think any person in this mixed world who knows his ancestors for at least 3-4 generations cannot be a Nazi. wink I know more. A friend in China lived and worked for a long time.
              1. Jünger
                Jünger 20 December 2020 19: 29
                0
                Well, you fold it. I know four generations, and then everything, too. And the minorities were not there, think. Maybe the Udmurts, hypothetically, the probability is small.
                So, if your relatives did not observe cleanliness, then this is your problem.
                And make generalizing conclusions too for yourself and your relatives.
                1. Kwas
                  Kwas 23 December 2020 15: 31
                  -1
                  Quote: Junger
                  So, if your relatives did not observe cleanliness, then this is your problem.

                  Well, we kind of all end up from a monkey. Or are you not? Then share from whom?
                  1. Jünger
                    Jünger 23 December 2020 15: 36
                    +1
                    Quote: Kwas
                    Or are you not?

                    These are atheist communists from the monkey. Yet good people were created this way
                    And the Lord God created man from the dust of the earth, and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul. (Genesis chapter 2)
                    1. Kwas
                      Kwas 23 December 2020 15: 58
                      0
                      Okay, let's conditionally accept the hypothesis. But then all people are from Adam, right?
                      1. Jünger
                        Jünger 23 December 2020 15: 59
                        +2
                        Quote: Kwas
                        But then all people are from Adam, right?

                        Don't go to the fortuneteller, comrade smile What's next?
  15. EvilLion
    EvilLion 17 December 2020 09: 40
    +3
    You can start with the fact that China is even ethnically and linguistically something incomprehensible, and they can write everyone in a row in Chinese, but this does not work very well when in your state the dialects of the language differ like Russian and Polish.

    And if the export-oriented economy collapses, then it is not a fact that China will remain whole at all. The USSR has disintegrated at least along ethnic borders; Kitty will not have such a luxury either.
    1. Fat
      Fat 17 December 2020 10: 45
      +2
      Is China so bad with the domestic market? If that their consumers will be brought up in their bright future.
    2. Sergey Oreshin
      Sergey Oreshin 18 December 2020 18: 27
      +2
      Even more so - the northernmost and southernmost dialects of "Chinese" differ as Russian and Dutch. They really don't understand each other if they don't speak the "Mandarin" dialect, which is their official literary dialect.
    3. Kwas
      Kwas 19 December 2020 20: 03
      +2
      Quote: EvilLion
      China is even ethnically and linguistically something incomprehensible

      Linguistically, all over China the same hieroglyphs. They are semantic, so the Chinese think almost the same way, and consider themselves, unlike our national minorities, just Chinese of different sorts. Excluding real national minorities, such as Dzungars or Tibetans.
      Quote: EvilLion
      And if the export-oriented economy collapses, then it is not a fact that China will remain whole at all.

      In fact, it is already almost completely self-sufficient.
      Quote: EvilLion
      The USSR disintegrated at least along ethnic boundaries,

      Also not a fig like that. Administrative borders between the republics did not coincide with ethnic ones almost anywhere, as evidenced by the post-Soviet interethnic conflicts.
  16. Revolver
    Revolver 17 December 2020 09: 48
    +1
    In short, the Japanese had the Chinese as they wanted, and would have had it even now if it were not for the Red Army, which smashed the Japanese army to smithereens and in half. True, the army in Japan was of a cousin type, more and more attention and funds went to the navy, and the army received on a leftover basis.
    1. gsev
      gsev 17 December 2020 21: 13
      +3
      Quote: Nagan
      In short, the Japanese had the Chinese as they wanted,

      Due to the lack of modern weapons and personnel capable of quickly and efficiently mastering such weapons, the situation on the Sino-Japanese front resembled the situation on the Soviet-German front in the summer of 1941 and 1942 and on the Eastern Front of World War I. To the credit of the Chinese, the Japanese offensive began to run out of steam in December. The battles for Shanghai and Nanjing demanded so much stress from the Japanese that in the future the Japanese command did not set decisive goals for the troops, which required the troops to exert the stress they experienced in the battles near Shanghai and Nanjing. In turn, the Chinese changed their strategy and stopped throwing their troops into bloody counterattacks against a strong enemy with no hope of success. The war passed into a stage of exhaustion, which put before the Japanese General Staff a search for ways to prevent the rearmament of the Chinese army with German, Soviet and British weapons. As a result, the Japanese felt that it was easier for them to attack the USSR, Great Britain and the United States than to observe how weapons, fuel and equipment were supplied to China from these countries. The fighting at Khalkhin Gol allowed Japan to enter into negotiations to end military supplies to China - the so-called Non-Aggression Pact between Japan and the USSR. Entering the war with the United States and Great Britain allowed Japan to postpone the strengthening of the Chinese armed forces until 1. By 1945, despite being in the blockade, civil confrontation in the country, the central government and the Chinese army did not collapse, and the Chinese launched a counteroffensive, as a result of which they were able to cut the occupation troops. overland routes between the grouping in Burma, Thailand and Indochina with the Manchu-Korean industrial base, which put the delivery of oil to the Metropolis under attack by US submarines, which in about a year would have chained Japanese aircraft to the ground. In addition, the number and influence of the traitors who sided with the Japanese are much less than in the USSR. If our politicians regularly honor Mannerheim, then shed tears for the "innocently killed Italian invaders", then mourn the NTS, Vlasov and RONAV members, then in the PRC the politician does not dare to rank himself among the admirers of the puppet Japanese administrations. And the CIA does not dare to order its bloggers to justify China's traitors.
  17. BAI
    BAI 17 December 2020 09: 57
    +7
    But after 7 years, it was the Chinese who squeezed the US troops beyond the 38th parallel and forced them to evacuate from Korea. Who in the US said, "We have to leave Korea with our face saved"?
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 17 December 2020 12: 26
      +1
      Only the USSR helped. A little bit.
    2. Alf
      Alf 17 December 2020 19: 08
      +4
      Quote: BAI
      But after 7 years, it was the Chinese who squeezed the US troops beyond the 38th parallel and forced them to evacuate from Korea.

      On Soviet tanks, with Soviet guns, with Soviet planes and pilots (remember Wang-Yu-Shin and Li-Si-Qing) with Soviet "advisers" at headquarters.
      1. gsev
        gsev 17 December 2020 20: 20
        +3
        Quote: Alf
        On Soviet tanks, with Soviet guns, with Soviet aircraft

        And the Arabs did not succeed in this.
        1. Alf
          Alf 17 December 2020 20: 24
          +3
          Quote: gsev
          Quote: Alf
          On Soviet tanks, with Soviet guns, with Soviet aircraft

          And the Arabs did not succeed in this.

          You're right again, my young Padawan! laughing
    3. meandr51
      meandr51 3 January 2021 18: 30
      0
      Yes, and the ratio of casualties between them was almost equal, despite the American air superiority.
  18. Operator
    Operator 17 December 2020 10: 36
    -4
    Since 1933, the Japanese have created on the territory of China at least three allied states - Mongolian, Manchu and Chinese proper (along the sea coast). Several hundred million Mongols, Manchus and Chinese throughout the war worked hard for the benefit of the Japanese Empire, served in the rear units of the Japanese army and actively fought the guerrillas and underground fighters of the Kuomintang and the CPC.

    PS The entire Korean Peninsula has been part of the Japanese Empire since 1905, so the former Koreans, who became subjects of the Japanese emperor, also worked hard and served for the benefit of their new homeland. In particular, it was from the Koreans that Japanese agents were recruited, which were massively thrown into the territory of the Soviet Far East, where they infiltrated the ranks of their ethnic communities. It was with this that the deportation of Soviet Koreans to Central Asia was connected.
    1. mr.ZinGer
      mr.ZinGer 17 December 2020 18: 07
      +4
      And you ask how Koreans love the Japanese. Even at the official level, their relationship is not very good.
      1. vindigo
        vindigo 18 December 2020 15: 10
        -1
        This hatred is more ostentatious now.
        1. mr.ZinGer
          mr.ZinGer 18 December 2020 16: 20
          +1
          I think there is no more hatred, but love is far from it. In Asia, few people love Japanese.
    2. gsev
      gsev 1 January 2021 07: 33
      -1
      Quote: Operator
      Since 1933, the Japanese have created on the territory of China at least three allied states - Mongolian, Manchu and Chinese proper (along the sea coast).

      It seems that at Stalingrad, out of those who were surrounded, about one in four was a defector from the Red Army. And these defectors fought, unlike the Chinese puppet soldiers, very steadfastly. The number of policemen in the USSR was higher than the number of partisans. In China, the guerrillas outnumbered the occupation troops, but they were not supplied with weapons and ammunition by aviation. A scanty number of prisoners returned from Japanese captivity, which says that it was not possible to make obedient slaves from Chinese prisoners.
      1. Operator
        Operator 2 January 2021 19: 58
        -1
        Without exception, all former soldiers of the Red Army, who were surrounded at Stalingrad, served in the rear units of the Wehrmacht and could not resist for a banal reason - they were not supposed to have weapons. The number of Soviet partisans and underground fighters was many times greater than the number of collaborators who went to serve in the German occupation police.

        The overwhelming majority of Mongols, Manchus and Chinese of the occupied regions of China served in the local armed forces and law enforcement agencies, and fought side by side with the Japanese against the Kuomintang and the Chinese Communist Party.

        In WWII, among the collaborators, the Jews who served in large numbers in the auxiliary units of German concentration camps and performed the main work to destroy their fellow believers were especially distinguished. Over 400 thousand German Jews, not for fear, but for conscience, fought in the Wehrmacht and the WaffenSS, while their kinsmen stoked stoves and covered up Babi yars in Germany and the countries it occupied.
  19. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 17 December 2020 10: 57
    +4
    So, what did the Chinese army lack? As it is already clear from the above - unity. The discipline was also just awful. Mass desertion, non-observance of orders, and the like were common. We can say ordinary. There was no question of combat training at all.

    Plus problems with motivation. For military service was considered the lot of losers:
    No nails are made of good iron; a good man does not go to the soldier.
  20. Maxim Aranson
    Maxim Aranson 29 December 2020 18: 38
    0
    Yes, actually there was no war as such. They were bent over quickly, almost like the Germans did France. And then the Japanese mocked the population with impunity doing this. from which even Hitler's sadists' hair would stand on end (see, for example, M. Seiichi's book "The Devil's Kitchen" about "Unit 731", which tested new types of weapons on local residents). And it was the Soviet Army that drove the samurai off the continent.
  21. meandr51
    meandr51 3 January 2021 18: 26
    0
    My father, who fought in Manchuria, noticed that the local soldiers from the self-defense squad, with whom they staged a shooting competition, easily beat ours. He explained this by the fact that ours in the war rarely fired and not always aimed. Basically, marches and digging trenches. And the Chinese, while ours fought for them, calmly trained.
  22. Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 3 February 2021 11: 05
    0
    How did it happen that tiny Japan managed to defeat, occupy and terrorize huge China for many years?

    The "tiny" Japanese Empire, together with Korea and satellite Manjuria, had a population of about half that of the Chinese.
    And the "tiny" failed to occupy more than half of China. Another thing is that in the occupied part of China, she controlled only large cities.
  23. Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 3 February 2021 11: 14
    0
    In fact, the surrender of the Japanese forces on the territory of China and the victory of the Celestial Empire on September 9, 1945 were due solely to the defeat that the "invincible" Kwantung Army suffered from the USSR Red Army.

    The main part of the Japanese ground army fought on the Chinese front from 1937 to 1945. So the surrender of the Japanese forces was due not only to the offensive of the Red Army, but also to the resistance of the Chinese themselves and of course the defeat in the Pacific Ocean.