Military Review

Croatia under the rule of the Ottoman Empire

230
Croatia under the rule of the Ottoman Empire
Kroatischen Reiters


In previous articles, it was told about Serbia and Montenegro. In this one we will talk about their closest neighbors - the Croats.

Fight for Croatia


Many linguists derive the word "Croat" from the common Slavic сhъrvatъ and Indo-European kher, referring to something related to weapons... (But the Serbs, according to one of the versions, are “united” by a common kinship. It has been suggested that the Belarusian word “syabr” is the same root word).

Croatian language belongs to the group of South Slavic, close to Serbian, Montenegrin and Bosnian. It has three dialects - Shtokavian, which served as the basis of the literary Croatian language, Kaikavian and Chakavian.

The Croatian lands have long been an arena for the struggle of the great powers. In the Middle Ages, the Venetians, Ottomans and Hungarians tried to establish power over this territory. And before them ancient Byzantium and the young empire of Charlemagne competed here.

In 925, Prince Tomislav I of the Trpimirovic dynasty became the first Croatian king, then this state included Pannonia, Dalmatia, Slavonia and Bosnia.


O. Ivekovic. "Coronation of King Tomislav"

After the death of the last king of the Trpimirovic family, Stephen II, in 1091, claims to these lands were made by King Laszlo I of Hungary, whose sister Elena was the wife of the previous Croatian monarch, Dmitar Zvonimir. The Hungarian army entered Croatia, and Helen was even proclaimed queen, but was forced to leave the country after the Polovtsian attack on Hungary, directed by the Byzantine emperor Alexei I Komnenos. However, the Hungarians still managed to keep Slavonia behind them; Laszlo I's nephew Almos became its king.

The Croats did not accept the loss: in 1093 they elected a new king - Petar Svachich, who managed to conquer Slavonia after 2 years. But this success ruined him, because Almos's brother, Kalman the Knizhnik (who became king of Hungary in 1095), defeated the Croatian army in 1097 in the battle on Mount Gvozd. In this battle, the last monarch of independent Croatia died.


O. Ivekovic. "Death of King Petar Svachich on Mount Gvozd"

Initially, there was a Hungarian-Croatian union with a common king (the same Kalman Knizhnik). However, in 1102 a document was signed (“Pacta conventa”), according to which Croatia became part of Hungary as an autonomous “Land of the Crown of St. Stephen (Archiregnum Hungaricum).


Millennium Memorial at Heroes' Square in Budapest. Bas-relief depicting the wise reign of King Kalman the Scribe

From the end of the XII century, north-western Dalmatia with the cities of Zadar, Split, Trogir was under the rule of Hungary: on behalf of the king of this country, the governor, ban, ruled these lands. In Hungary itself, a close position to the Croatian Ban was held by the Palatine, who was both the first minister and the supreme judge.

South Dalmatia, which included the cities of Kotor, Bar, Ulcius, became a vassal of Serbia, where the Nemanich dynasty ruled at that time.

Venice took possession of Zadar in 1202, and Dubrovnik - in 1205. In the 1409th century, after buying in XNUMX the rights to part of Dalmatia from Vladislav of Naples, the Venetians controlled almost the entire coast of the future Croatia.

And then the Ottoman sultans drew attention to these lands.

Ottoman conquest of Croatia


This is how the Ottoman Empire looked like in 1451 - before the capture of Constantinople (1453) and the "jump" to the Balkans.


In 1459, as we remember from the article "Ottoman period in the history of Serbia", Serbia was finally conquered. In 1460 the Ottomans captured Bosnia, in 1463 - the Peloponnese, in 1479 - Albania and part of the Venetian possessions, finally, in 1483, Herzegovina was conquered. In 1493, the Croatian army was defeated in a battle with the Ottomans on the Krbavsky field.


Leonhard Beck. Battle of Krbava Field. 1514-1516

The Turkish troops were then led by the bey of the Bosnian Sanjak Khadim Yakup Pasha. At his disposal were only akinji - light (compared to sipahi) Ottoman cavalry. He was opposed by the ban Imre Deremchin, who brought with him 8 thousand infantry and two thousand heavily armed horsemen.

The Ottoman horsemen carried off the Croatian cavalrymen with a feigned retreat, and then, surrounding them, killed them. Then it was the turn of the infantry (who had upset their ranks when advancing). In this battle, many Croatian nobles died, including the ban himself.

In 1521 Sultan Suleiman I (the Magnificent) demanded tribute from Hungary. After refusing, he first captured Belgrade, which belonged to this country, and then moved his troops to the capital city of Buda. The Hungarians met them on the Mohacs plain - about 250 km from the capital. Here on August 29, 1526, a battle took place, which ended in the defeat of the Christian army.


Battle of Mojács. Miniature from a German manuscript of 1559


Battle of Mohacs. Turkish miniature

The battle began with an attack by the Hungarian heavy cavalry on the right wing of the Ottomans. At the same time, infantry units of the Christian army entered the battle with the Janissaries in the center and on the other flank.


Janissary

The Hungarian knights managed to strongly press the Ottoman cavalry (although it is believed that the retreat of the Turks was a deceptive maneuver). In the end, the Turks led the enemy cavalry to their artillery positions: the fire of the Ottoman guns mixed the ranks of the attackers. A counterattack by the Turkish cavalry overturned the knights, who almost all died, being pressed against the Danube.


Ottoman cannons, chained, and janissary arrows. Miniature from the manuscript "Suleiman-name". 1558 g.

The infantrymen held out longer, who were eventually surrounded and also defeated. King Lajos II of Hungary, Croatia and Bohemia was killed. He became the second king of the Jagiellonian dynasty to die in battle with the Turks. (The first was Vladislav Varnenchik, who died in 1444 in the battle of Varna - you can read the story about her in the article "Crusaders against the Ottoman Empire: the last campaign").

Two weeks later, the Hungarian capital Buda also fell.

One of the main Ottoman trophies in the Battle of Mohacs was a half-naked boy found in a ditch, either a Croat, or a Hungarian, who entered historyas Piiale Pasha - the second vizier of the empire, commander-in-chief of the Ottoman fleet and the son-in-law of Sultan Selim II. It was described in the article "Ottoman pirates, admirals, travelers and cartographers".

The central part of Hungary was now occupied by the Ottomans. The western and northern regions, including the city of Pozsony (Bratislava), came under the rule of the Habsburgs. The Ottomans also occupied many regions of Croatia.

You may have heard the phrase somewhere:

“Let others fight; you, happy Austria, get married! What Mars gives to others, Venus gives you. "

This couplet was attributed to the king of Hungary, Matius Corvin, who lived in the 1526th century. But it appeared, apparently, in the XNUMXth century. It was at this time (in XNUMX) that a successful marriage brought Austria the Habsburg crowns of Hungary and Croatia.

The problem was that the Ottomans then left the "remnants of the remnants" to Austria. The Turks retained their possessions in Hungary until 1699. And now not only the Ottomans claimed the lands of the Christians that lay to the north of their property (the culmination of their onslaught was the siege of Vienna in 1683), but the Austrians also sought to recapture the territories of the Ottoman Sanjaks that belonged to them "by right".

In Dalmatia, the city of Dubrovnik (the Republic of Ragusa) has always occupied a special position, which belonged to the Venetians until 1358, and then fell under the rule of Hungary.


Dubrovnik. Miniature. 1487 g.


Republic of Ragusa on the map of Dalmatia 1719

In 1526, this republic was conquered by the Ottomans. But even then she managed to maintain a certain independence, limiting herself to paying tribute - until the devastating earthquake of 1667.

And the Venetians, despite the fierce confrontation with the Ottomans, held on to the Adriatic coast of Dalmatia until 1797, when the Republic of St. Mark was conquered by Napoleon Bonaparte.


Possession of Venice in different years on the map.

From August 6 to September 8, 1566, the Ottomans besieged the small fortress of Sigetvar, which was defended by the Croatian Ban Miklós Zrinyi.


Miklos Zrinyi

Sultan Suleiman I was with the Turkish army, who entrusted the command to Grand Vizier Mehmed Pasha Sokkol (this Serb, who was taken from his parents by the "devshirme" system, was described in the article Ottoman period in the history of Serbia ").

On the night of September 7, Suleiman I died in his tent. But the vizier did not inform his army about this. Instead, he sent an army to a decisive assault: the city burned and Zrinyi, at the head of 600 horsemen, rushed against the superior forces of the Turks. Only seven of them managed to break through, and Miklos Zrinyi fell, struck by three Turkish bullets.


An attempt at a breakthrough by Miklos Zrigny in a painting by Johann Peter Kraft.

Zrinya's nephew Gaspar Aldapich was captured, but was ransomed. Later he himself became a Croatian ban.

The death of Suleiman mixed up the plans of Mehmed Pasha: instead of going to Vienna, he returned to Constantinople to coordinate further actions with the new sultan, Selim II. And so Richelieu called the siege of Sigetvar

"The battle that saved civilization."

Sigetvar belonged to the Ottoman Empire for 122 years. And in 1994, a Hungarian-Turkish friendship park was opened not far from this city, where you can see a monument to Miklos Zrinyi and Suleiman I.


Monument to Miklos Zrinyi and Suleiman I. Sigetvar. Hungary

In 1593, a battle took place in the interfluve of the Sava and Kupa rivers near the city of Sisak, after which the Ottomans' onslaught on the Balkans significantly weakened. In this battle, the army of the Bosnian Pasha Hassan Predojevic clashed with the Austrian troops, the bulk of which were Croats. There were also the border regions of the Military Krajina and even 500 Serbian Uskoks (we will talk about Uskoks later in this article). The Turks were completely defeated, even their commander-in-chief was killed.


Jerome Ertel. "Battle of Sisak". Nuremberg. 1665 g.

The new border between the possessions of the Ottomans and the Habsburgs remained until the end of the XNUMXth century.

Dalmatian hops



Harambasha (literally translated as "illegal head", elected chieftain of the Uskoks) from Dalmatia. Figure 1875

In Dalmatia (the Adriatic coast of modern Croatia) from the end of the XNUMXth century the Uskoks fought against the Turks.

There are two versions of the origin of this word. According to the first of them, the Uskoks are those who fled (“galloped”) from the territory controlled by the Turks. It could have been Serbs, Croats, and Bosnians. But there were also "volunteers" from the other side of the Adriatic Sea, for example, the Venetians. According to another version, uskoks are “those who jump” (from an ambush).


A. Marodich. Serbian usok Bayo Pivlyanin kills a Turk.

Dumps could operate on land. But they became famous at sea, where they went on large boats (about 15 meters long). Meeting them was dangerous for any ship, not necessarily a Turkish one (although the Uskoks, of course, robbed the Ottomans with special pleasure).

Initially, the Uskoks were based in the Klis fortress located on the rock, not far from Split.


Klis on the map of South Dalmatia (shown by an arrow)


Clissa fortress. Medieval miniature


Klis fortress. Contemporary photo

(In the TV series "Game of Thrones" Klis became the prototype of the city of Meereen - there they "painted on" the pyramids on the computer).

After Klis was surrendered to the Ottomans (in 1537), the Uskoks moved to the north-west of Dalmatia - to the city of Senj, located opposite the island of Krk and belonging to the Austrian Archduke Ferdinand (future emperor). And the Venetian merchants then had a saying:

"May the Lord protect us from the hands of Seni."


Senj on the map of Croatia


Uskok ships chase a large ship in the Senyi Canal (the strait between Senya and the islands). Engraving 1600


The goods obtained at sea were usually sold in the Italian city of Gradiska (captured by the Austrians from Venice in 1511), which eventually even began to be called the "capital of the Uskoks".


Venice. Gradisca and Senja on the map

In 1615, they became so bold that they attacked the city of Monfalcone, which belonged to Venice. And then they captured the galleon of the governor of Venetian Dalmatia, who died during a boarding battle.

The result was the so-called Uskok war, or "Gradiski war" (this city withstood two sieges), in which the Austrians, Spaniards and Croats met with the Venetians, Dutch and English.


La guerra di Gradisca. 1615-1617

This war lasted from 1615 to 1618. And it ended with the expulsion of the Uskoks from Senya. The undesirable result was the activation of the Ottoman military and corsair ships, which now more often began to enter the northern waters of the Adriatic Sea.

Haiduki



Croatian haiduk. Vecellio engraving 1860

Little was told about the Yunaks of Serbia in the article "Ottoman period in the history of Serbia".

And in Croatia, Bulgaria, Macedonia and Hungary, such partisans were called free hayduks. (In Hungary there were also royal hayduks, similar to the registered Cossacks of the Commonwealth).

However, it would be naive to believe that the Yunaks, Uskoks and Free Guyduks were entirely noble "people's avengers", eager to give the poor their last shirt and ready to climb the scaffold at any moment to deliver a heartfelt speech about love for the motherland before execution.

The line between the "national liberation struggle" and banditry was sometimes very thin. The partisans often attacked the Turks and "collaborators" because it was during such operations that one could hope for good prey. And what do you get from the poor local Christians? The Turks have already robbed them on perfectly legal grounds.

A certain Ferenc Nagy Szabo, who lived on the territory of modern Romania, wrote about these partisans in 1601:

These Haiduks are a very rude ungodly people, although they are Christians, they are exceptionally bad Christians. When we told them not to beat and not atheist, because we are also Hungarians and Christians, and that their Lord will certainly punish them, they answered us:

"This and that are the sons of the spirit, you are hairy Turks and hang around with the Turks ... We are not afraid of anything from God, since we left Him in Zatissia."



Christophorus Weigelius. Hungarian hayduk. 1703 Welt-Galleria. Nuremberg

Croatia in the state of the Habsburgs


During the Austro-Turkish War of 1683-1699, the Habsburgs managed to recapture Croatian territory up to the Sava River. Further, throughout the XNUMXth century, the Austrian authorities encouraged the resettlement of ethnic Germans to Croatian lands. What caused the resistance of the local population.

From the end of the 1809th century, Istria, Dalmatia and Dubrovnik came under Austrian rule, which at the beginning of the 1813th century (XNUMX−XNUMX) were the Illyrian provinces of France. And then they went back to the Hapsburgs.

In gratitude for helping to suppress the Hungarian Revolution of 1848, Croatia received autonomy rights. However, after the formation of the “two-pronged monarchy” (Austria-Hungary) in 1867, Croatia and Slavonia became part of the Hungarian kingdom, while Dalmatia and Istria were ceded to Austria.

After the annexation of Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1878, the Military Border (Military Krajina) was abolished, the lands of which were annexed to Croatia. Finally, after the defeat of Austria-Hungary in the First World War in 1918, Croatia became part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes.

The next article will talk about the Croatian Ustasha, SS volunteer divisions, punitive operations of Nazi accomplices (among whom were the "white" Cossacks of the division of German General Helmut von Pannwitz) on the territory of Yugoslavia, and the emergence of an independent Croatia.

And then we will talk about Macedonia, which, in addition to the Turks, was claimed by Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs and even Albanians.

To be continued ...
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  1. Catfish
    Catfish 18 December 2020 05: 20
    +14
    Good morning friends. hi
    For me, the Croats are, first of all, the Croat Josip Broz Tito, our ally during the war, and, to no less extent, the ally of the Nazis - the Croatan Legion.
    I just learned the background from Valery, so thanks to him! good smile

    Tito.

    Legion.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 07: 20
      +16
      Hi Konstantin!
      Quote Valery -
      Croatian language belongs to the group of South Slavic, close to Serbian, Montenegrin and Bosnian. It has three dialects - Shtokavian, which served as the basis of the literary Croatian language, Kaikavian and Chakavian.

      If we face the truth, Croatian is one of the newest Slavic languages. Date of birth 90s of the last century. In Yugoslavia, the Rodnaya Rech textbook was no different for Serbs and Croats. When this problem was raised during the collapse of Yugoslavia. The answer was paradoxical we will "change" something.
      So, in fact, the difference between Croats and Serbs is in one thing - religion!
      Well, they are also divided by “the blood of the Serbs shed by the Croats during the Second World War,” but let's not get ahead of the Author.
      Although I will add to the members of the forum to smile. According to the official version of the Nazis - "Croatians are true Aryans"!
      Well the last one. The history of "Croatia" presented above is a tracing of the current position of this country. A sort of "modern Ukrainian history textbook", where the entire pre-Ottoman period was "sucked from the finger" by substituting the words of Serbs for Croats.
      Serbs think differently and write about something else.
      Valeria is definitely a plus, thanks!
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 18 December 2020 08: 01
        +8
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        So, in fact, the difference between Croats and Serbs is in one thing - religion!

        Here, with minor reservations, you can include Bosniaks.
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 18 December 2020 08: 05
        +11
        Hello Vladislav! hi
        So, in fact, the difference between Croats and Serbs is in one thing - religion!

        Just like with Muslims.

        This is perhaps the whole point, but you're right, let's not get ahead of ourselves.
      3. Korsar4
        Korsar4 18 December 2020 08: 51
        +11
        Yes. And the language was called on the one hand - Serbo-Croatian, on the other - Croat-Serbian.

        That on the forehead, that on the forehead. Let the linguists correct.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 18 December 2020 09: 14
          +9
          Croatian Serbian.

          Radishes: the tablet and who points the finger stupidly.
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 09: 55
          +8
          Quote: Korsar4
          Yes. And the language was called on the one hand - Serbo-Croatian, on the other - Croat-Serbian.

          That on the forehead, that on the forehead. Let the linguists correct.

          If I am not mistaken, our departments for the study of the languages ​​of Yugoslavia were called so.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 18 December 2020 20: 30
            +5
            I did not look at these departments either to linguists or to international affairs.
      4. pytar
        pytar 19 December 2020 13: 39
        +4
        To be honest, Croatian is one of the newest Slavic languages. Date of birth 90s of the last century .... So, in fact, the difference between Croats and Serbs is in one thing - religion!

        Dear Vladislav! hi Let me disagree a little with you! Croatian and Serbian are really very bad, they are essentially 2 dialect forms of the same language / Serbo-Croatian + Bosnian /. The reason is that they evolved in parallel in the same direction from the common Proto-Slavic language! Croats and Serbian lived side by side, influenced each other. Similar to both Czech and Slovak languages. There was no noticeable linguistic differentiation, despite the adoption by Croats of Catholicism and Orthodoxy - Serbs. Let us not forget that the division of the two branches of Christianity historically happened much later than the formation of both nations! And the peoples of the Yeti originated from the Slavic tribes that came to the Balkans and were already formed as Croatian and Serbian! Moreover, they came from different Slavic areas! Croatians come from the Eastern Slavs, they are closer in origin to the current Ukrainians and Russians! Serbs come from the Western Slavs, the territory of the present East. Germany and the Czech Republic.

        Here it should be noted that the Croats glagolitic survived until the 19th century! Used in parallel with the Latin alphabet. The Serbs have spread Cyrillic, but Latin was also used! Until 2006 in Serbia, Cyrillic and Latin were the official alphabets in parallel.
        Well, they are also divided by “the blood of the Serbs shed by the Croats during the Second World War,” but let's not get ahead of the Author.

        This is an extremely ambiguous period in the history of both peoples. In rus-media, the Serbian interpretation is almost always replicated, but you will not find the Croatian one! Yes, the Croatian Ustashi, noted with unheard atrocities! But the Serbs also did not lag behind, they were cutting each other with incredible frenzy!
        Serbian Chetniks Draz Mikhailovich, slaughtered Tito's partisans no less than the Ustashi-Serbs!
        In each detachment of Serbian Chetniks there were so-called "kolyachi" (from the Serbian verb "prickle" - to cut), that is, the executioners who liquidated Tito's partisans and, in general, persons suspected of sympathizing with the Communists. The execution was carried out exclusively with cold weapons.
        I will not put a photo of such content here, a link is better:
        http://porjati.net/victims/16800-horvatskie-ustashi-i-serbskie-chetniki-1941-1945-g.html
        By the way, in rus-media sometimes they show photographs where Serbian Chetniks commit atrocities, repeating that they are "Ustashi"! True, the Ustashi were no better, there during the WWII everyone went wild!
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 19 December 2020 14: 24
          +4
          Good day Peter!
          I am an adherent of the St. Petersburg school of settlement of the Slavs. She believes that the birthplace of the great-Serbs is the Danube region. Bosniaks and Croats are an element of a religious, not an ethnic divide.
          I know about Serboraz. By the way, I think it will be interesting for you to listen to the "Radio Moscow speaking" program "Vivat History". The series is publicly available on the Internet.
          Regards, Vlad!
          1. pytar
            pytar 19 December 2020 17: 14
            +2
            Good afternoon, Vladislav!
            I am an adherent of the St. Petersburg school of settlement of the Slavs. She believes that the birthplace of the great-Serbs is the Danube region.

            A more plausible theory is that some of the Serbs from the territory of the present East. Germany went along the Danube to the Balkans, under pressure from the Germans. This is logical and can be seen from the movement of the Germanic tribes of that time! A part remained - Lusatian sorbs / Serbs / still live in Germany.
            T.N. "White" Croatians lived in the Carpathian region. There is a catch in the name! In the early Middle Ages, among the Slavs, the directions of the world were indicated with color! White - West, Red - East! I mean, "White Croats" are Croatians living in the western direction of their range! This is just the Carpathian region / Galicia /!
            Ksati, when the Bulgarian Tsar Boris I restored Belgorad in the 9th century / b. Singidunum)., Now the capital of Serbia /, he named the city Bel / s / city, most likely because of the location in the directions of the world! Belgrade, then was the most western city of the First Bulgarian Kingdom! In Latin iztochkin, it was called Alba Bulgarica, a Bulgarian city.
            Bosniaks and Croats are an element of a religious, not an ethnic divide.

            Here history says something else ... Since the 7th century, the sources have mentioned the Serbs and Croats as separate tribal groups! They accept Christianity much later, in the 10th century. Until then, for centuries, they had the same religious traditions, and at the same time there were separate peoples - Croats and Serbs! Our Bulgarian Kans and Tsars fought with the Serbs, and occasionally with the Croats, as soon as they came in the 7th century and definitely made a difference between them! As for the Bosnians, their first state formation was formed in the 9-10th century. There was a post on VO. By the way, few people know that medieval Bulgaria, or rather the Bulgarian Bogomils, had a huge influence on the formation of the Bosnian state. Persecuted Orthodox Church, more than 350 thousand. of them took refuge in Bosnia, and the Bosnian Bogomil Church became official there. Now on the territory of Bosnia found more than 60 thousand !!!!!! burial gravestones with Bulgarian and / even proto-Bulgarian / motives on them. hi
            I know about Serboraz.

            Everyone knows about "Serborez", but few people know about similar ones from the side of Serbs! The Serbs cut strangers and their sonar-readers no worse than the Ustashi, although they did not have time to unroll in tachyk scales!
            When Tito came to power, the first thing was done by Gulagi! More than 120 thousand have passed through one "Goli Otok". only Bulgarians from Macedonia, as a result of the policy of de-Bulgarization and the creation of a "Macedonian nation"! The entire Bulgarian intelligentsia, teachers, clergymen, etc. were physically destroyed.
            1. Cork
              Cork 11 March 2021 16: 24
              0
              But the Serbs did not send Croats to concentration camps, and the Bulgarians also practiced concentration camps against the Serbs during the First World War!
              1. pytar
                pytar 11 March 2021 23: 46
                0
                You know, the Serbs, too, were "quite good" in all sorts of atrocities. Nothing happens to an empty space. In the Balkans, revenge has been going on for centuries.
                1. Cork
                  Cork 14 March 2021 02: 58
                  0
                  Analogy is not an argument and the institution of blood feud is a sign of uncivilization and barbarism of the peoples of the region.
                  1. pytar
                    pytar 14 March 2021 11: 42
                    0
                    This is not an analogy, it is figuring out the causal relationship in events. But if we look at the history of a supposedly civilized nation, we will find many analogies.
                    1. Cork
                      Cork 14 March 2021 15: 56
                      0
                      Read more attentively the Highlander's comments firstly, I gave an argument, instead of an argument, you began to say that Serbs are also bad and they are also animals, this is called an analogy which, from the point of view of the formal logic of the first and second predicates, is not an argument. "In the Balkans, vengeance has been going on since time immemorial" if you have the institution of blood feud in the Balkans as well as in the Caucasus, then you are not civilized peoples, because the institution of blood feud among cultural peoples has long been in the past.
    2. Nazar
      Nazar 18 December 2020 08: 16
      +5
      Sea Cat - And for me the Croats are primarily the Yasinovets concentration camp, in which the Croats killed up to 600000 Serbs.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 18 December 2020 08: 35
        +9
        This, as I understand it, will be continued. Then we'll talk about the Legion together with the SS for that too.
        1. Nazar
          Nazar 18 December 2020 08: 38
          +5
          Sea cat - then we wait, sir hi
    3. Xlor
      Xlor 19 December 2020 13: 57
      +3
      Broz Tiso was only half Croatian ...
  2. Korsar4
    Korsar4 18 December 2020 05: 32
    +11
    Thank you, Valery.
    Apparently, the famous larch piles, on which Venice stands from Dolmatia, were brought.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 06: 56
      +13
      Hello, Sergey!
      You are right in part, until the 40s of the 18th century, perhaps larch was imported from Dolmatia. Later, this business was intercepted by the Demidovs from the Sorokinskaya pier, annually rafting barges with selected deciduous forest to Venice.
      The shipment of roofing iron and deciduous timber reached 2000 poods and 100-150 trunks (5 fathoms long) annually.
      Until now, the inhabitants of the coastal villages value the "Demidovsky Toplyak" on the "base".
      Later, this business was intercepted by the younger branch of the Demidovs. The descendants of Ankifiy Demidov even bought themselves the title of princes of San Domato and had a small flotilla on the Black Sea for trade relations during the intervals between the Russian-Turkish wars.
      Well, somewhere like that. We have a saying - "Venice stands on our piles and is covered with our iron"!
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 18 December 2020 07: 20
        +7
        Greetings, Vladislav!

        To some extent, I was waiting for your answer.
        Is this accurate information about the Demidovs?

        Heard a version about the "Perm Karagai" sent to Venice.
        The head does not add up firmly.

        What was the water route?
        Delivery of a barge could cost a pretty penny.

        Even though water transport is quite cheap.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 18 December 2020 09: 47
          +12
          I heard the version about the "Perm Karagai" sent to Venice
          Karagai cannot be sent to Venice. This is a toponym. There are more than a dozen Karagaev in Russia, including a village in the Perm Territory, on the banks of the Obva River, Obva flows into the Kama, the Kama into the Volga. As you can see, the barge will not reach Venice.
          "Karagai" in Bashkir is a pine forest.
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 10: 42
            +13
            VikNik "karagai" combatant (karableny) pine forest. With the advent of the Mariinsky water system, it was exported to Britain. Along the Volga, Kama and Oka there were dachas where it was strictly forbidden to cut timber for export. Similar decrees limited the delivery of timber from Arkhangelsk and Kholmogor. There were even several high-profile cases on the "thin forest" in warehouses in Kazan. Elite was moved to the left, replacing it with substandard. We miscalculated with customs in St. Petersburg. Maybe they gave a little to the paw, it was as if Ushakov himself, being a midshipman, went to check the Kazan dachas and warehouses. Although I could be wrong.
            There were no such bans in Perm, Bashkiria and the Urals. The elite ship timber was driven to Britain, the combatant to Venice.
            Ural larch was also used in the construction of St. Petersburg. The largest contract for St. Isaac's Cathedral.
            And the last thing. Larch is heavy, sinks on the third or fourth day. So I had to be perverted. Good larch and var for it were taken to the Sorokinsky pier (near the Shamakhinsky plant), where in the spring they were floated on barges along Ufa and Belaya to the Volga. There, depending on the political situation, they were loaded onto barks or belyany. Belyany walked down the river. Bunches to the top. One larch was not transported, the cargo was always mixed.
            Northern route: Ufa, Belaya, Volga, Mariinsky system, Neva.
            Southern: Ufa, Belaya, Volga, portage between Volga and Don, Don.
            Then the timber was loaded onto sea vessels and delivered to the customer.
            The Stroganovs did not lag behind the Demidovs, from whom the name "Perm Karagai" apparently went. Their logistics was even simpler. Having land along the Kama and Vishera, they hired Bashkir lumberjacks for the winter, whose duties included the delivery of "Karagaev" to the mouth of the Kama. On Vishera, a large flat-bottomed boat is still called Karagai. In the Urals, they were called "cast-iron barges", "cast-iron", "stoves". In fact, all of them were united by one "one-time application"! After the descent, by great will, they were sold for huts and firewood.
            Since the beginning of the 19th century, the merchant Mikhail Gubin entered the business of the related Demidovs and Stroganovs, who delivered var and larch to order. The cages of almost all hydraulic structures of the Volgokamsk basin of the first half of the 19th century were made from its forest. Many are still standing.
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 18 December 2020 11: 17
              +10
              As for the "Karagai from Perm" I have met one clear explanation. The Permian larch (Karagai from Perm) was purchased in large quantities by Bulgar merchants, transported by water to Astrakhan, and then exported further. Ioanniki Stroganov was engaged in such trade.
              Everything is logical here. Karagai is a pine forest among the Turks.
              As for the piles of Venice, they are not only made of larch, but also of elm and oak. About 100-150 trunks annually.
              During the construction of the Santa Maria della Salute church, about 100 piles were driven in, and including the beams, 000 trunks were used.
              The main source of larch for Venice was the Cadore region.
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 13: 05
                +5
                Quote: Undecim
                During the construction of the Santa Maria della Salute church, about 100 piles were driven in, and including the beams, 000 trunks were used.

                Viktor Nikolaevich we have already argued on this topic! I operate with documents for the damage caused to N.N. Demidov, during the Pugachev uprising. Colonel of the last Beloborodov burned the Sorokinsky pier in Ufa with barges. The load of the barges amounted to “2000 - poods of iron, 150 good trees from the foliage and 100 poods of var for it.
                Using the finger on the floor method, the ceiling calculated that 300 larch trunks were needed for a 4000-meter dam. The cost of an efficient trunk is 10 kopecks with delivery (prices for the year of construction of the dam of the Verkh-Isetsky plant). Hiring a worker for the Iron Caravan ranged from 1 to 5 rubles. For 10 days, many people flocked to earn money for a heifer or even a cow. An artel gathered from 10 to 20 people on the barge. So the rafting of the barge cost about 100 rubles to build. In Ufa, the prices were probably about the same. Although the journey took two weeks.
                By the way, oak was bought from the Bashkirs for shutter valves. They drove in winter on a sled by dragging or in autumn by "barge haulers". Pulling on a rope against the current.
                Larch is not suitable for beams. Heavy and bitchy.
                Well, the last export of larch to Europe dates back to the middle of the 18th century. This is far from the heyday of Venice. The main attractions are much older. And interest could arise after the depletion of nearby forests.
                Well, somewhere like that.
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 18 December 2020 13: 25
                  +6
                  The XNUMXth century does not contradict my picture of timber supplies.
                  And in Dolmatia there are fewer good trunks left.
                  And ships with metal, probably, could be accompanied by loading of larch trees.

                  I don’t know the logistics and the carrying capacity of the barges.

                  Larch is not suitable for rafting.
                  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 13: 32
                    +7
                    In Soviet times, the Perm beauty Vishera was killed in this way. They rafted the whole forest in a row. The linden was “wetting”, the larch was sinking. It turned out as always - well!
                    Apparently, an article should be written about the "cast-iron caravan". It boiled.
                    We need to ask the old people, so that one of them agreed to edit my delirium.
                    1. Undecim
                      Undecim 18 December 2020 14: 23
                      +4
                      Apparently, an article should be written about the "cast-iron caravan". ...
                      We need to ask the old people, so that one of them agreed to edit my delirium
                      Are you hoping to find old people who remember in detail at least 1918? Then they should be 130 years old. You have strong old people.
                      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 15: 44
                        +5
                        VikNik sprinkle ashes on my head, I had you with Vyacheslav Olegovich. repeat
                      2. Undecim
                        Undecim 18 December 2020 15: 45
                        +4
                        No question, I will always help as much as possible and health.
                      3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                        Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 15: 52
                        +5
                        Thank you so much! hi:
                  2. Astra wild2
                    Astra wild2 18 December 2020 17: 58
                    +5
                    Viktor Nikolaevich, as always you have a "fly in the ointment"
                2. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 18 December 2020 14: 57
                  +5
                  Write.

                  From what we have said today: I would love to watch the timber trade in Russia in the XNUMXth century.

                  Both the White Sea route and the Urals.
                  And Mendeleev's words: "Iron business is a school of forestry."

                  I do not promise to delve into the old "Forest Journals" in the near future.

                  But I will definitely dig.

                  And the linden is just now starting to recover. But that is another story.
                  1. Fat
                    Fat 18 December 2020 20: 41
                    +3
                    Quote: Korsar4
                    linden is just now starting to recover.

                    Come on...? Linden linden is a big difference. Linden from a sandy shore drowns in a week for a sweet soul. she has such a structure. But the set of silicates is cut almost in the same way as oak ... we called this wood lipo-oak for a reason ... to some extent rightly, heavy, hard and ... useless rot in the core, although long and fast-growing. They did not breed it because it is a weed, like maples and birches. Stick an oar into the sand - in five years - a linden ... I missed a little - firewood. such is life ... And I don’t know how to steam for recovery ... Our layer Everything?
                  2. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 18 December 2020 20: 53
                    +4
                    They beat the linden on bast. On a colossal scale.
                    A peasant could wear out 40 pairs of bast shoes a year.

                    What stratum are you talking about?
                  3. Fat
                    Fat 18 December 2020 21: 15
                    +2
                    There is nothing to take from the old lime tree, Sergei. except for ornamental wood, and there was more than a lot of bast. A strong wind knocks down lime trees on "Oh", I will never let my grandchildren unattended in the wind into a linden grove. Lipka reaches a couple of meters in 2 years without any interference from the nursery. A weed and unnecessary linden is a poplar, planted unparalleled by the gardeners of the USSR, although the poplar burl is valuable, in part ... yes
                  4. Fat
                    Fat 18 December 2020 21: 21
                    +2
                    Quote: Thick
                    What stratum are you talking about?

                    I? I bureaucrats and those who are fools () I call a stratum, but what did you think of the intelligentsia? drinks laughing
                  5. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 18 December 2020 21: 31
                    +3
                    Do not understand. Clarified.
                    I choose: Who is better to be - a bureaucrat or a fool.
                  6. Fat
                    Fat 18 December 2020 21: 44
                    +1
                    Sergei, is there a great distance between a fool and a bureaucrat. Both follow instructions .... and are almost always free from responsibility.
                    "You can't outweigh everyone" (c) crying
                  7. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 18 December 2020 21: 47
                    +3
                    Follow the instructions? Whose?
                    Different people. I do not like the general size.

                    “There is a man and a man.
                    If he does not drink the harvest -
                    Then I respect the peasant "(c).
                  8. Fat
                    Fat 18 December 2020 22: 38
                    +1
                    fellow good I can't even pick up a pencil. laughter chokes ...
                    A H.Z. Knows him, Comrade Lieutenant General. repeat soldier
                  9. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 18 December 2020 23: 00
                    +3
                    A.K. Tolstoy expounded well.
                    I like it since childhood.
            2. Fat
              Fat 18 December 2020 22: 11
              +1
              I answer with the words of the Cheshire cat:
              "- does not mean ignorant" (c) How do we figure it out?
            3. Korsar4
              Korsar4 18 December 2020 22: 14
              +2
              "Smile, gentlemen!" (from).
            4. Fat
              Fat 18 December 2020 22: 29
              +2
              Quote: Korsar4
              "Smile, gentlemen!" (from).

              A! Remembered laughing If you are depressed, smile, she will think that you are crazy and leave (C)
            5. Korsar4
              Korsar4 18 December 2020 22: 32
              +2
              "Only a joyful grin can I save
              I need to - because I'm a great artist "(c).
            6. Fat
              Fat 18 December 2020 22: 48
              +1
              Sergei, inject about the artist! Otherwise I'll rhyme it half to death drinks laughing
            7. Korsar4
              Korsar4 18 December 2020 23: 02
              +2
              From a Rosenbaum song.

              What topic should I be injected on?
  3. Korsar4
    Korsar4 18 December 2020 21: 25
    +4
    As far as I know, they took a young linden tree.
    In the Far East, loggers and beekeepers fought over a linden tree.

    Linden regenerates well both by seed and, especially, by coppice.

    Poplars, for example, selected by A.S. Yablokov, are very good.

    The floodplain poplars are wonderful.

    The mouthguards are good and birch and maple, in the first place.
  4. Fat
    Fat 18 December 2020 21: 57
    +1
    Sergei, you shouldn’t tell ... I personally killed 3 chains on an old poplar - there was more old iron than wood ... and one oak is enough for cutting ... Only elm is figove of oak in the middle lane.
  5. Korsar4
    Korsar4 18 December 2020 22: 04
    +2
    Sholokhov admired the elm in The Quiet Don. I compared the man to him.

    I love this breed. It is a pity that many died from the Dutch disease.
    White poplars and Soviet pyramidal ones are handsome.

    Who else in the city can withstand the dust? They just don't like pruning branches. They begin to rot.
  6. Fat
    Fat 18 December 2020 22: 52
    +1
    Quote: Korsar4
    Who else in the city can withstand the dust?

    Another weed is linden repeat
  7. Korsar4
    Korsar4 18 December 2020 23: 03
    +2
    Yes. Lipa is even more fun in the city. She has her own problems - thyrostromosis.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 18 December 2020 13: 21
    +7
    I agree. 100 - 150 assortments do not make the weather.
    Oak on piles is also found, but larch predominates.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 18 December 2020 17: 55
    +5
    They told interestingly. I learned a lot
  • vladcub
    vladcub 18 December 2020 11: 09
    +8
    This could not have been sent to VN before, but now: I buy the rights to a toponym, I will put it anywhere. MARKET thunder
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 18 December 2020 11: 21
      +8
      Have you already bought a lot?
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 18 December 2020 15: 09
        +4
        I'm just asking the price and I'm afraid of competitors
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 18 December 2020 15: 15
          +4
          Do not be afraid. Minimum costs - paint glass, brush and plywood sheet. Write on a sheet of plywood any toponym you like, even Rome, even Musohransk, reinforce it on the pediment - and it's in the bag - own it! Nobody can forbid you to possess this toponym.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 18 December 2020 13: 19
    +8
    I agree. And so it seems to me.

    The only version is that earlier, oddly enough, pine and larch could be called pine.

    As, for example, araucaria is called Norfolk pine or Parana pine.

    According to legend, Peter the Great planted pine, spruce and fir in the Pharmaceutical Garden. Spruce and fir fell out.

    Larch grows. So I think: at what point did you replace pine with larch?
    1. Fat
      Fat 18 December 2020 20: 55
      +3
      If you read the inscription "buffalo" on an elephant's cage, do not believe your eyes!
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 21: 14
        +6
        Quote: Thick
        If you read the inscription "buffalo" on an elephant's cage, do not believe your eyes!

        The zoo guard, after reading your comment, happily ran to the buffalo's cage, “Talking an elephant to the persecuted,” a buffalo in a horse gas mask and a raincoat with horns and an elephant with a basin on its face and one deer horn on an elastic band looked sadly at this.
        hi
        1. Fat
          Fat 18 December 2020 21: 32
          +1
          Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Quote: Thick
          If you read the inscription "buffalo" on an elephant's cage, do not believe your eyes!

          The zoo guard, after reading your comment, happily ran to the buffalo's cage, “Talking an elephant to the persecuted,” a buffalo in a horse gas mask and a raincoat with horns and an elephant with a basin on its face and one deer horn on an elastic band looked sadly at this.
          hi

          Yes, the blessed one with him, let him rush about. Business like that. But to pass off a pine for a cedar, talent and knowledge are needed laughing
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 18 December 2020 21: 39
            +3
            It's too hard to do.

            However, the cedar pine is also a pine.
            1. Fat
              Fat 19 December 2020 16: 34
              0
              Quote: Korsar4
              It's too hard to do.

              Come on...! With a microscope, not every board ... technology makes it possible to mimic whatever comes with it. Sic transit gloria mundi ... - This is how worldly glory passes.
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 18 December 2020 21: 19
        +3
        It's just that the locals have their own names. For example: Bunya-bunya.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 21: 50
          +3
          Well, if on the shelves. Many will be able to distinguish a clean cut of fir from spruce without bark? Or cedar pine from Scots pine.
          Pine differs from larch radically, but only a few today know it. We sorted out this issue 200 years ago. I think the carabel and builders are unambiguous. However, so are the merchants.
          Larch and oak darkens in salt water, pine like cedar turns red.
          This was known both in the Mediterranean and the Baltic. Homer also has black ships, Scandinavians - black and red.
          On a linden tree. Linden is an elegant wood for carving. Well, washcloths from it are much better than sentetics.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 18 December 2020 21: 55
            +3
            Many. But it's one thing to see a cut. And it must be done. Fir, for example, is the only coniferous tree without resin passages.
            And you can start to doubt in the simplest case.

            Moreover, the people have long distinguished between condo pine (cobblestone) and mint (with loose wood).
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 18 December 2020 07: 41
    +6
    And what is there in the picture with the death of King Peter Svachich? As far as I understand, you couldn't do without a woman?
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 18 December 2020 08: 08
      +8
      This is Madame Croatia mourning him. crying
  • vladcub
    vladcub 18 December 2020 11: 04
    +7
    Comrades, I am glad to welcome you. We are alive - blessing, there is a choice that to read and argue is a great blessing.
    Now we have pluralism, and an hour later: "are you for Miao or Xiao? And in any case:" take off your pants. "Now maybe
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 18 December 2020 11: 40
    +8
    Well, that is interesting, informative, albeit very fluently, which, in general, can be explained by the amount of information and the volume of the article into which this information needs to be squeezed.
    The discussions, apparently, will not work today, except that they artificially irritate them on some left topic. To begin with, I suggest:
    directed by the Byzantine emperor Alexei I Comnenus.

    I would write "Comnenus". And it turns out somehow too Russian and very modern - Alexey Ivanovich Komnin (1056-1118), Romei, a native of Constantinople (?), Disgusting character, well, etc.
    And so, personally, I have nothing to say about the article, except that on the whole I liked it. Is it possible to criticize the material part in the illustrations, for example, where did the coat of arms of Croatia in the form of a red and white checkered appear in the painting with the coronation of the first Croatian king (925), if its earliest appearance can hardly be dated to the end of the 925th century. - with the great-grandson (or great-great-grandson) of this very first king. There you can also see the coat of arms of Dalmatia with three cat heads (by the way, the heads are exactly like those of Harald Godwinson, only that coat of arms was red and white), I doubt that in XNUMX such symbolism could really exist.
    And, of course, the plate armor on the king, who died in the year of the first crusade, is also not so hot. smile
    As I understand it, colleagues are already rolling up their sleeves and dipping their pen in what, getting ready to paint Croatians "under Khokhloma" in the comments to the next article. smile For the sake of trash and frenzy, you can try to protect them (the Croats), but I probably won't, well, they'll still beat him ... smile
    1. Pane Kohanku
      Pane Kohanku 18 December 2020 12: 07
      +8
      And, of course, the plate armor on the king, who died in the year of the first crusade, is also not so hot.

      Yes, it immediately catches your eye, but I will support Valery:
      "he sees it that way." "Reinforced concrete excuse".

      It's like the paintings in the Hermitage on biblical subjects, in which the heroes are dressed in morions of the late Middle Ages. drinks
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 18 December 2020 12: 39
      +9
      Discussions, apparently, will not work today,
      This is because Valery did not say a word about the cats. crying laughing
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 18 December 2020 12: 49
        +9
        Fie on you, infidel!
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 18 December 2020 12: 58
          +8
          infidelity
          And what is the presence of a cat nowadays a sign of being churched? tongue
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 18 December 2020 13: 08
            +8
            In my opinion, neither cats nor dogs have anything to do with it. But I didn't start it. hi
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 13: 15
              +6
              Anton with the face of Psoglava canonize you !!!
              By the way, how's the hand?
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 18 December 2020 13: 31
                +10
                Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                Canonize you Anton

                Cynonized. laughing
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 18 December 2020 13: 52
                  +6
                  Uh-huh. As Hachiko.
              2. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 18 December 2020 13: 37
                +6
                "Chef! It's all gone! The client is getting plaster cast!" (FROM)
              3. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 18 December 2020 13: 54
                +8
                Anton with the face of Psoglava canonize you !!!

                Why do they need a second St. Christopher? belay Is one not enough? laughing
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 18 December 2020 13: 16
              +7
              Of course not you, but Shpakovsky.
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 13: 37
                +8
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                Of course not you, but Shpakovsky.

                My friend did not answer about the "paw". The hand?
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 18 December 2020 13: 40
                  +7
                  Already answered. On Monday at the reception.
            3. depressant
              depressant 18 December 2020 19: 31
              +3
              But what about the Dolmatin? )))
              By the way, Croatian dog breed. So, Shpakovsky and even very much))
        2. Korsar4
          Korsar4 18 December 2020 13: 27
          +8
          "Man is a friend of a dog" (c).
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 13: 54
            +6
            The fence is the cat's best friend, said the cat running away from the dog !!!
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 14: 03
              +7
              "The dog under the fence whined sadly -" Kitty, kitty, kitty ". The cat on the wobbly picket fence hissed "fuck you, fuck you" !!!
            2. Korsar4
              Korsar4 18 December 2020 14: 58
              +5
              "The main thing is the tail!" (from).
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 15: 46
                +5
                And a very important thing for balancing.
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 18 December 2020 15: 53
                  +4
                  Of course. And not only the flying squirrel.
              2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 16: 00
                +5
                When a cat runs from a dog, he carries out the most complex physical and mathematical calculations. The angle of inclination of the tail, so as not to interfere with aerodynamics, but at the same time it was not torn off! laughing
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 18 December 2020 16: 03
                  +4
                  Yes. And he will not, like an unintelligent fox, conduct discussions with him.
                  No wonder he was sent to our forest by the burgomaster from Siberia.
                  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 16: 12
                    +6
                    Contrary to the fox, the cat has no chance. In the Tyumen region, they told me how a cat chased by a fox hid in the kennel of a watchdog. That from what impudence did not even eat it. The dog growls, pushes him out of the kennel with his hind paws, and he again climbs the kennel right over the dog to hide. Fortunately, the dog did not smell the fox until the cat became, otherwise it is not yet known how it ended.
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 18 December 2020 18: 38
                      +4
                      It depends on which cat. But in general, yes.
          2. Astra wild2
            Astra wild2 18 December 2020 18: 10
            +4
            Quote: Korsar4
            "Man is a friend of a dog" (c).

            Actually, it should be: "a dog is man's friend"
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 18 December 2020 19: 40
              +4
              Not all house managers agree with this.
              1. Fat
                Fat 18 December 2020 23: 17
                +2
                Uh-huh. Bourgeois notions. "The house manager is a friend of the Soviet man"
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 18 December 2020 23: 59
                  +2
                  “Having returned from there, he became different” (c).
              2. Astra wild2
                Astra wild2 19 December 2020 13: 35
                +1
                For example, Nona Mordyukova, thought the opposite
    3. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 18 December 2020 18: 07
      +5
      "they are still hitting" Mikhail, I don’t recognize you: for once: "the great and terrible Trilobite" and is afraid?
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 18 December 2020 18: 46
        +5
        So here they will beat their own ...
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 21: 17
          +4
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          So here they will beat their own ...

          No beat, most of them just shit in slippers. And one generally useless can only be a car wheel and a pillar at the entrance !!! Do you take the curtain from him only if you change it to a cow or to a refrigerator?
          Regards, Vlad!
  • VLR
    18 December 2020 11: 48
    +9
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    where in the painting with the coronation of the first Croatian king (925) came the coat of arms of Croatia in the form of a red and white cage

    Well, then Oton Ivekovic - he is an artist (very famous in Croatia): "he sees it this way." "Reinforced concrete excuse".
    1. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 18 December 2020 13: 11
      +10
      Quote: VlR
      he sees so

      laughing
      What is confirmed by the half-naked, barefoot girl with her hair loose, as if she had just come from the bedroom - how could you meet her on the mountain at night?
      Judging by the title of the picture, it is death. The crows accompanying her indicate the same. Question: What was she doing before she was called to the scene? By the way, if you convince my wife that just such a death will come to me - a young plump girl in a transparent negligee, just out of bed, warm and soft asleep, you can consider me immortal. laughing
      But I propose to subject the author of the picture to destructive and ruthless criticism, do not care that the famous.
      A cursory examination of the scene shows that the circumstances of the death of the king described in the sources do not at all correspond to the situation depicted by the artist. A body without visible traces of violence, in a small clearing. There are no signs of struggle, no signs of the presence of third parties. The helmet and the sword, which are nearby, are clearly placed there neatly, because if at the moment of the body's fall the helmet were on the head, it would certainly fall into the abyss, the edge of which is at a distance of about 20 cm from the victim's head. The sword, if at the time of death it was in the victim's hand, must lie either near the wrist, or near the feet (if it fell out of the hand at the time of striking a standing person).
      It looks like it was like this:
      The victim was returning home from somewhere. Judging by the fact that there was one, probably from a woman, perhaps, before the journey, he took it well on the chest. On the way, when going uphill, it became bad, or tired, lay down. He took off his helmet, placed it neatly next to him, the sword, apparently, was also in the way, dangling at his hip. It's night outside, obviously autumn, possibly frost, mountains, after all. Frozen (in steel armor) and died. It is necessary to take the body for autopsy, tissue for histology, then make the final decision on the cause of death and initiate a criminal case. But for now, personally, I tend to speak more of an accident.
      Moreover, death was clearly not preparing to work at this time. If there was a battle, she would have been there with all her regalia, in a robe with a hood and a scythe. And here, apparently, the challenge for her was completely unexpected.
      smile
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 18 December 2020 14: 12
        +9
        Please pay attention to his shoes, they were clearly recently polished to a mirror shine. Even with a short walk in the mountains, any shoe will look completely different.

        Hence the conclusion suggests itself that the victim did not return from anywhere, but "took it well on his chest" right on the spot, where everything else happened to him.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 18 December 2020 14: 46
          +6
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Please pay attention to his shoes

          Yes, the shoes are clean. But I took a closer look, it looks like a spur boot, so there was also a horse. You can also wonder where his right leg is below the knee.
          There is one more question: what does the victim have in his left hand? And is this his hand?
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 18 December 2020 15: 24
            +5
            There is one more question: what does the victim have in his left hand? And is this his hand?


            I was also embarrassed by the object in the palm of the victim's left hand ... In appearance, it very much resembles a flirty belt of women's outerwear.

            And given the completely disheveled appearance of the female figure presented on the canvas, it is quite possible to assume that the victim attempted to violate the honor and dignity of his own death.

            But that doesn't explain the complete absence of his right leg.
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 18 December 2020 16: 49
              +9
              Quote: Sea Cat
              the victim encroached upon the honor and dignity of his own death.

              Damn, beautiful version! I would like to be told this about me! laughing
              She explains, among other things, why death is at a distance and looks somewhat dumbfounded. And this is how you need it - you need to walk to work in shape. laughing
              In general, it seems that it was like this.
              Petar Svavich secretly went to his girlfriend who lived beyond the Mountain. Last time I arrived, and she has critical days. Instead of debauchery, they staged a booze. Well, we sat down, smeared it right, sang songs, it's time to go home. Petar sat on a horse, and she walked back up the hill. On the way, Petar felt like it was needed. He got off his skate, relieved himself and accidentally farted loudly. The horse got scared and jerked. Petar shouted, whistled - he does not return. Well, what to do - he could no longer move on his feet, so he had to take off his helmet, unfasten his sword and lie down. And he lay down under the pebble, fell asleep and froze.
              Death came, pushed, like, "Your Majesty, it's time, let's go." Well, that began complete indecency - deprived of female affection on the eve of Petar, seeing a pretty girl negligee shouting "Oh! The girls have driven!" grabbed his own death and tried to untie the belt on it so that it was more convenient to satisfy lust. Death fought back, but the forces were unequal and then she shouted in her hearts: "Yes, so that your legs dry up!" - and it became so. Petar was surprised and even went nuts from this and completely died. And the death belt remained in his hand. And death for some time was afraid to approach him and finally step on, there was no suitable stick at hand to move, to check if everything was in order, so she asked the crows to peck and twitch the body. It was at this moment that the artist captured them.
              I think that the autopsy can no longer be performed. Death came as a result of acute surprise and awesomeness against the background of hypothermia and instant drying of half of the leg due to death.
              laughing
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 18 December 2020 16: 59
                +7
                Quote: Trilobite Master
                On the way, Petar felt like it was needed. He got off his skate, relieved himself and accidentally farted loudly.

                Michael, I tried to translate it into Croatian with the help of a translator, it turns out interestingly:
                Na putu, Petar je želio po potrebi. Suze s klizaljke, suočio se s potrebom i slučajno glasno prdnuo.
                drinks
              2. Catfish
                Catfish 18 December 2020 17: 32
                +5
                It remains to be assured by the bailiff and you can send it to the synod. laughing
            2. Mihaylov
              Mihaylov 18 December 2020 16: 55
              +8
              Quote: Sea Cat
              this does not in any way explain the complete absence of his right leg.

              Maybe you've already pecked it? wassat
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 18 December 2020 17: 29
                +4
                Well, they have thieves, however ... It is necessary to attract! soldier
            3. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 18 December 2020 17: 31
              +5
              Colleagues, but it seems to me alone that death with someone on the mobile is bursting, apparently asking instructions?
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 18 December 2020 17: 37
                +7
                Naturally, the management calls, the situation is extraordinary, not every day a potential dead man tries to fuck her, my dear. On the contrary, necrophilia, here you will inevitably go crazy and start ringing the Pope. wassat
              2. Korsar4
                Korsar4 18 December 2020 21: 40
                +2
                Illustration for Pratchett?
        2. Lexus
          Lexus 22 December 2020 03: 33
          +4
          He clearly failed to cope with the rape of his own death. Unlike Solomon. repeat
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 22 December 2020 04: 37
            +1
            There was no Solomon practice, dilettante ... request
            1. Lexus
              Lexus 22 December 2020 04: 53
              +6
              "I strive to be in time." (FROM)
      2. Mihaylov
        Mihaylov 18 December 2020 14: 57
        +8
        Quote: Trilobite Master
        He took off his helmet, put it neatly next to it,

        Have you noticed that the helmet is elven? laughing
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 18 December 2020 15: 54
          +6
          A body without visible traces of violence, in a small clearing.

          Sergei! It is interesting that the first domestic serious cheese making could arise under Paul the First. Some foreigner clung to him, promised a bunch of varieties of European cheeses. Paul even gave him money. The swindler never reached the declared capacity (and was done near Gatchina). But after a while ... he disappeared! They found a corpse near Ligov a few days later - he visited the local owner of a cow herd there, to talk about "raw materials" for his cheeses. And they found him in the same condition, and not even robbed - as Mikhail describes. So, after examining the corpse it was said .. that he died of a fever. That is, from drunkenness! request
          "Your son fell off his horse .. and broke his tail ..." (Dm. "Goblin" Buchkov. "The Lord of the Rings", part two). drinks
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 18 December 2020 15: 59
            +7
            Quote: Pane Kohanku
            It is interesting that the first domestic serious cheese making could arise under Paul the First.

            But things are still there ... But no: soft cheeses can now be found very decent, but hard cheeses are still more difficult. hi
            that the victim did not return from anywhere, but "took it well on the chest" right on the spot where everything else happened to him.

            "The victim's head is on the tra ..., on the tra ..., on the roadway." wassat
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 18 December 2020 16: 19
              +5
              Although no: soft cheeses can now be found very decent, but hard cheeses are still more difficult.

              I can look in the evening in more detail what he promised there Pal Petrovich. There is no book at hand. That's why I love our Anton 3x3zsave - it's good to go on excursions with him. In the same place, in Gatchina, I bought a book on the history of the city. drinks
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 18 December 2020 16: 22
                +6
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                I can look in the evening in more detail what he promised there to Pal Petrovich.

                I suppose, Nikolay, rubbed something about import substitution ... laughing
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 18 December 2020 16: 32
                  +6
                  I suppose, Nikolay, rubbed something about import substitution ...

                  And the result was the development of funds without any exhaust ... A familiar picture. Even foreign cheese makers in Russian conditions instantly acquire the features of our officials. laughing "They drink and steal!" What's wrong? Did he get the money? Died of drunkenness? drinks
                  1. Mihaylov
                    Mihaylov 18 December 2020 16: 36
                    +6
                    Quote: Pane Kohanku
                    Died of drunkenness?

                    Well, at least not from your own cheese. laughing
                    By the way, someone told me that an Italian cheesemaker lives in the Tver region, an Italian married a Russian, bought land near Tver and organized a cheese factory, they say he makes a very decent cheese, but hard cheeses (like Parmesan) say they don't work out here: the specific climate.
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 19 December 2020 13: 53
                      +2
                      they say it makes a very decent cheese, but hard cheeses (like Parmesan) say it doesn't work here: the specific climate.

                      Sergey, it dawned on me! And this, in an hour, was not Artuzov's ancestor - was Frauchi? Our intelligence leader who perished under Yezhov? belay the same one also came to Russia to cook cheese ...
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 16: 02
          +7
          Quote: Mihaylov
          Quote: Trilobite Master
          He took off his helmet, put it neatly next to it,

          Have you noticed that the helmet is elven? laughing

          Yes you sho speak the real Croatian !!! laughing
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 18 December 2020 16: 15
            +6
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Yes you sho speak the real Croatian !!!

            So it turns out that Croats are elves? wassat
      3. Korsar4
        Korsar4 18 December 2020 15: 55
        +8
        Where are the traces of "acceptance"? In bottles, pots, flasks, bros?
        Otherwise - innuendo.

        "You are talking, Gleb Yegorovich" (c).
        1. Mihaylov
          Mihaylov 18 December 2020 16: 18
          +8
          Quote: Korsar4
          Where are the traces of "acceptance"?

          "- Threw 2 bottles of wine into the abyss.
          - Three!
          - Write three ... " drinks
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 18 December 2020 19: 29
            +3
            There are no fragments left either.
        2. Catfish
          Catfish 18 December 2020 16: 36
          +7
          Perhaps he managed to hand over the dishes, or the lady present there did it for him. There are no witnesses, perhaps they were also removed. An autopsy has not yet been carried out, which is strange. Everything here is very strange and suggestive. sad
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 18 December 2020 19: 29
            +4
            Where is the information about the points of acceptance of dishes of that time?
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 19 December 2020 09: 21
              +1
              And there was no trace, bureaucrats at that time were crushed in the cradle. laughing
        3. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 18 December 2020 16: 56
          +6
          There, the full version of events is stated above. laughing
          But what can be said for sure is that there was no great battle. So, an attempt to rape death, no more. laughing
          1. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 18 December 2020 17: 11
            +8
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            But what can be said for sure is that there was no great battle. So, an attempt to rape death, no more.

            I am leaving for the dacha, until Monday the intrigue will remain for me: where will the investigation come?
            Great weekend to everyone! hi
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 18 December 2020 12: 02
    +6
    In Dalmatia, the city of Dubrovnik (the Republic of Ragusa) has always occupied a special position, which belonged to the Venetians until 1358, and then fell under the rule of Hungary.

    As far as I remember, the main city of "Game of Thrones" was filmed in Dubrovnik?
    1. VLR
      18 December 2020 12: 23
      +7
      In Croatia, the 8th place where this series was filmed.
      By the way, I honestly tried to watch it, but I could not: this is not the real (albeit fantasy) Middle Ages, but some kind of parody of it.
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 18 December 2020 12: 29
        +6
        By the way, I honestly tried to watch it, but I couldn't

        I didn't even think to watch it ... But mine watched all the seasons, except for the last one, before our meeting. As a result, when the last one came out, I looked it over with her. From the second episode I already knew who to whom, when and with whom. laughing
        this is not a real (albeit fantasy) Middle Ages, but some kind of parody of it.

        Yes! And for tactical moves, in the sense of their absence, the main characters should have their heads ripped off. fellow
        By the way, all of the friends who were vacationing in Croatia are happy.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 18 December 2020 13: 29
          +7
          Quote: Pane Kohanku
          I didn't even think to watch it

          In fact, the first seasons were pretty good. Very nice images, quite talentedly revealed by the actors, a good, dynamic plot, fights, murders, blood, beautiful negligee women, a lot of violence and lust, excellent dialogues ... and, the most interesting thing is that any main character can come off at any time from the run, it gives the story such a peculiar charm ... I don't remember from which season the series fell in level, but the first three were definitely pretty good. The last season is the quintessence of stupidity, it does not at all correspond to the bar set by the first.
          Quote: Pane Kohanku
          the main characters should have ripped their heads off.

          Screenwriters and directors. Actors, and even more so heroes, are completely irrelevant. The difference between the first and the last seasons is the same as between Ryazanov's "Irony of Fate" and the second, where Khabensky played.
          1. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 18 December 2020 13: 49
            +5
            Actors, and even more so heroes, are completely irrelevant.

            I agree. yes
            The difference between the first and the last seasons is the same as between Ryazanov's "Irony of Fate" and the second, where Khabensky played.

          2. Catfish
            Catfish 18 December 2020 13: 58
            +7
            ... the second, where Khabensky played.

            Thank God I didn’t see it, I had enough "Admiral" for the rest of my life.
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 18 December 2020 14: 20
              +9
              But I've looked, solely to have the moral right to speak out. smile
              The new "Office Romance" was no longer watched. Decided enough. smile
            2. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 18 December 2020 18: 38
              +3
              Quote: Sea Cat
              ... the second, where Khabensky played.

              Thank God I didn’t see it, I had enough "Admiral" for the rest of my life.

              Irenia of Fate-2 is a complete poison
              1. Phil77
                Phil77 18 December 2020 18: 59
                +4
                Quote: Astra wild2
                Irenia of Fate-2 is a complete poison

                And if we cast aside nostalgia, but see the real * Irony .... *? Yes with sober eyes? Yes, try to find positive main characters? No, I understand that * Irony ... * is a symbol of New Year's celebrations, but ....?
                1. VLR
                  18 December 2020 19: 56
                  +3
                  Honestly, now the "real", the first "Irony" seems to be nonsense. It seems like a seemingly normal, adequate woman, seeing some drunk in her house, instead of running to the neighbors and calling the police, begins to communicate with him ... And many of my friends - peers also say that now even Ryazanovsky is watching the film can no longer and do not understand why they liked it before.
                  1. Phil77
                    Phil77 18 December 2020 20: 06
                    +5
                    Yes, yes, yes! It's the same story with me! And I also can't explain why I liked these films. For example. * Office romance *. Sorry, well, the fact that Novoseltsev is unrealistically childish, that's okay. But he is also just , corny stupid. At least as it was played by Myagkov. And again! It is impossible to find a positive hero. * Garage *? The same story. * Beware of the car *? A wonderful film, but who pulls it out? Papanov and Mironov! Frankly negative characters of that time ...
                    Is this a rethinking? Or we are already * mutating * But still, I really love cinema! Or rather, the cinema of that time. And Great Actors!
                    1. VLR
                      18 December 2020 21: 16
                      +3
                      But Gaidai is out of time, his comedies, probably, and our grandchildren will watch. And Ryazanov is rapidly "leaving", and, apparently, his name will remain only in the section "History of Soviet Cinema".
                      1. Phil77
                        Phil77 19 December 2020 06: 37
                        +3
                        Quote: VlR
                        But Gaidai is out of time

                        Yes. Just a small clarification. Early Gaidai. For starting from * Sportloto * it becomes more and more difficult to watch his films.
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 18 December 2020 12: 52
        +7
        Hi, Valery! hi
        I agree completely, it took me 10-15 minutes from a series, so that later I did not come to the box. And my wife liked it. request
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 18 December 2020 13: 16
          +6
          Just the case when a good book was vulgarized as a film adaptation!
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 18 December 2020 13: 35
            +7
            On account of the "good book" I would argue that Martin has more worthy works.
          2. Pane Kohanku
            Pane Kohanku 18 December 2020 13: 51
            +6
            Just the case when a good book was vulgarized as a film adaptation!

            Can I make you laugh? drinks Do you remember how you talked about the phlegmatic bear and the exam the day before yesterday? wink Did it look like this? tongue drinks
      3. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 18 December 2020 13: 14
        +8
        You haven't seen the "Templars" yet! wassat
        Thanks for the article, Valery!
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 18 December 2020 13: 55
          +7
          There, Jacques da Molay, by chance, the negro does not play, otherwise these can easily. Should I give them the idea to make Othel white, and Yaga and vice versa? laughing
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 18 December 2020 14: 11
            +7
            No, not a Negro. But the main character with such a normal Arab face.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 18 December 2020 14: 25
              +6
              It's a pity, but I would look at this.
          2. Mihaylov
            Mihaylov 18 December 2020 15: 00
            +7
            Quote: Sea Cat
            There, Jacques da Molay, by chance, it is not a negro who plays, otherwise these can easily.

            Mannerheim's Negro played, but you can:
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 18 December 2020 15: 28
              +6
              Having learned about this, the entire General Staff of the Russian Imperial Army turned over in their graves. Out !!! laughing
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 18 December 2020 15: 38
              +6
              Sergei! hi
              Well, Vysotsky Negro was playing ...
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 18 December 2020 15: 44
                +4
                Quote: 3x3zsave
                Well, Vysotsky Negro was playing ...

                Now the Negro must play Vysotsky ... lol
                But first you have to repaint Bezrukov hi
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 18 December 2020 18: 52
                  +5
                  first you have to repaint Bezrukov
                  "- Well, why?!?! Why do you not want to give this role ?! I played Pushkin, and Yesenin, and Vysotsky! I even played Christ !!!
                  - You see, Seryozha, Anna Akhmatova, in a way, a woman ... "
                  1. Phil77
                    Phil77 18 December 2020 20: 10
                    +4
                    Quote: 3x3zsave
                    - You see, Seryozha, Anna Akhmatova, in a way, a woman ... "

                    Class !!!!! Passed by me, did not hear. laughing
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 18 December 2020 20: 24
                      +4
                      Well, quite a bearded anecdote. Appeared after the premiere of "Vysotsky. Thank you for being alive."
                      By the way, how do you like the new (relatively) "Crew"?
                      1. Phil77
                        Phil77 18 December 2020 20: 39
                        +4
                        I answer honestly. I didn't even look. And yet ... I'll try. Why? An example from my personal life. * And the dawns here are quiet * -new version, remake. They showed it that year, on Victory Day. I'm sober. , the next day you need to go to work. Let me think I'll take a look, purely out of curiosity, and what? I liked it. I’ll name a number of reasons why this happened.
                        Firstly, little-known actresses were shot, which is good for a remake.
                        Second, the script is very close to the story.
                        Thirdly, beautifully shot, nature is shown very beautifully.
                        Fourth, the actors PLAYED! And did not serve the number.
                        And finally, before sitting down to watch, I tried to forget about Rostotsky's film.
                        But this is of course purely my point of view on this film.
            3. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 18 December 2020 15: 46
              +6
              Mannerheim's Negro played, but you can:

              If you take this "Mannerheim", and grab it with "Chapaev and Petka", laid out by Uncle Kostya, then you can say: "Whites fought with reds, but negros won!" lol No, well, Mannerheim was for the “White Finns”! request
              1. Mihaylov
                Mihaylov 18 December 2020 15: 50
                +6
                Quote: Pane Kohanku
                "Whites fought with reds, but negros won!"

                Or say: "Bet on red, bet on white, but still wins ...." wassat
                If you take this "Mannerheim"

                Specific Finnish humor, I suppose ... hi
            4. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 18 December 2020 18: 31
              +5
              In this case: Whoopi Goldberg is the Snow Maiden, and Carol Yager is the spitting image of Thumbelina (think 700 ?! kg. Weight)
      4. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 18 December 2020 17: 25
        +2
        Valery, what films would you recommend about the Middle Ages? Preferably not very gloomy. Our reality is not the most joyful and I want to see what is beautiful and not very heavy.
        Р
        S
        I know that she loves to watch heavy films, and at night she screams from nightmares.
        1. VLR
          18 December 2020 17: 51
          +5
          In my opinion, there are few good films about the Middle Ages (more about antiquity). I would highlight the following:
          "Vikings" with Kirk Douglas in the title role: 9-10 points on a 10-point scale, perhaps;
          "Flesh and Blood" - dir. Paul Verhoeven - 9 points, but he's pretty tough;
          Two films - 7-8 points:
          "The Kingdom of heaven"
          и
          "Joan of Arc" with Mila Jovovich.
          1. Phil77
            Phil77 18 December 2020 18: 00
            +5
            Quote: VlR
            "The Kingdom of heaven";

            Greetings Valery! Yes, I recommended this film to Vera, but .... She doesn't trust it. belay And the movie is really great.
            * Flesh and blood *? It will be gloomy for Vera, but Rutger Hauer is good at him!

            And for the article, thanks! I read it with great interest, like the whole cycle. hi
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 18 December 2020 18: 12
              +4
              Quote: Phil77
              *Flesh and blood*

              The phrase from this film was especially engraved in my memory.
              * -Martin! Do you think that you love her? No! She loves you. *
              This is clearly a censorship option. laughing
            2. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 18 December 2020 18: 27
              +3
              Sergey, in my commentary, I explained why not a hard film
              1. Phil77
                Phil77 18 December 2020 18: 30
                +4
                Quote: Astra wild2
                not a hard movie

                So I kind of explained that * Kingdom of Heaven * is a normal film, with good battle scenes, good acting, beautiful! And by no means heavy, after watching at night no one will scream. belay
                1. Astra wild2
                  Astra wild2 19 December 2020 14: 04
                  0
                  Actually, battle scenes are purple to me
              2. VLR
                18 December 2020 18: 47
                +4
                "Heavy" is a relative concept. One of the hardest films I have seen is the "children's" "Bridge to Terrabitia": all American "horror films" did not come close. Why did these monsters (writer and director) kill this girl?
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 18 December 2020 18: 21
            +4
            I would add here the Norwegian "Crusader" and our "And trees grow on the stones."
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 18 December 2020 18: 26
              +4
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              And trees grow on the stones. "



              Hello Anton!
              Rostotsky is great! Filmed an excellent movie. hi
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 18 December 2020 18: 30
                +4
                A rare case when a movie is better than a book.
                1. Phil77
                  Phil77 18 December 2020 18: 33
                  +4
                  Quote: 3x3zsave
                  a movie is better than a book

                  I agree. This is especially evident in * I am a legend *. I liked the film, the book, no. hi
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 18 December 2020 18: 40
                    +4
                    Is this the one that "Legend - 17"?
                    1. Phil77
                      Phil77 18 December 2020 18: 47
                      +4
                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      Legend 17"?

                      ++++++++ !!!
                      Which is with Will Smith and Sam the Shepherd. wink
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 December 2020 18: 57
                        +5
                        Okay, okay, don't pump it up! I realized that I was screwed. The main thing is that I am not afraid to seem (!) Funny and stupid. good
                      2. Phil77
                        Phil77 18 December 2020 19: 05
                        +5
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        funny

                        Here is an honest noble word! And I was not in my thoughts! I thought it was funny. laughing

                        Po * 17 *. This major, is it Valery Kharlamov?


                        And this * uncle *? Is this Esposito?
                        Laughing. Just laughing. At the creators of these * sports * masterpieces / sarcasm /.
                      3. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 December 2020 19: 40
                        +4
                        Is "Upward Movement" bad too?
                      4. Phil77
                        Phil77 18 December 2020 19: 45
                        +4
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        , "Moving up" is also bad?

                        No, I frankly liked it. Why? Probably because the * unclouded * actors were filmed. Probably because the script was not bad. Probably because I was worried at the end of the film (which was not for a long time). And probably because I just liked the film.
                      5. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 18 December 2020 19: 54
                        +4
                        I drove the younger.
                    2. Phil77
                      Phil77 18 December 2020 19: 48
                      +5
                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      is bad

                      The main thing, Anton, is that this * artist * is not even close!
                    3. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 18 December 2020 19: 58
                      +4
                      Why did Petrov not please all of you?
                      Normal "policeman from Rublyovka". And that the actor is no, well, Bruce Willis is also not a genius. laughing
              2. Korsar4
                Korsar4 18 December 2020 19: 52
                +5
                “To appear smiling and simple:
                The highest art in the world ”(c).
              3. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 18 December 2020 20: 02
                +4
                "I come home, take off my mask,
                Where is my beautiful Asol ... "(C)
              4. Korsar4
                Korsar4 18 December 2020 20: 28
                +5
                "The scarlet sail of hope,
                Scarlet sail of hope "(c).
              5. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 18 December 2020 20: 51
                +6
                Everything is much more prosaic. Gray was a smuggler and hauled illegal silk in Frisco. One day, a storm tore the sails, and Gray ordered to pull the load from the hold.
                And what was painted with carmine was not the carrier's fault.
              6. Korsar4
                Korsar4 18 December 2020 21: 44
                +3
                This version was voiced by one of Gray's sailors.
              7. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 18 December 2020 22: 45
                +4
                How else would we know her?
              8. Korsar4
                Korsar4 18 December 2020 23: 00
                +3
                For example, from the natural mind.
              9. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 18 December 2020 23: 17
                +4
                "From a big mind, only an insanity and a prison,
                From great love, only muzzles in blood "
                I don't remember who wrote it anymore ... Either I, or Umka, or Nekrasov ...
              10. Korsar4
                Korsar4 18 December 2020 23: 57
                +3
                Yanka.

                I got caught late.
              11. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 19 December 2020 00: 00
                +4
                It's too early for me.
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 18 December 2020 21: 55
    +4
    “To appear smiling and simple:
    The highest art in the world ”(c).

    Only Golovan Jack knows Yesenin better than me ...
    "Oh, you are the night ..
    What are you, night, twisted?
    I'm standing in a top hat .. no one is around ..
    I am alone .. and a broken mirror ... "

    This is Yesenin's apotheosis, this is a requiem for himself. No one has ever succeeded in conveying thoughts before committing suicide ... burdened with alcohol - obviously! what
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 18 December 2020 21: 57
    +3
    Compete?

    “If it weren't for me a poet,
    That, probably, was a swindler and a thief ”(c).
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 18 December 2020 22: 23
    +3
    Compete?

    With Golovan? Empty .. He's a master.
    "There was a man that adventurer,
    But the highest and best brand. "
    drinks
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 18 December 2020 22: 30
    +3
    “You walked excitedly around the room,
    And they threw something sharp in my face ”(c).
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 18 December 2020 19: 00
    +6
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Norwegian "Crusader"

    Which is Arn?
    Well, yes, in general, not a bad film, although, as for me, it will be so dragged out.
    There was still a good attempt from the British - Henry V, about him - the film "The King" 2019.
    Of course, everything is far from ideal.
    And here are my favorite films about the Middle Ages - "The Ballad of the Valiant Knight Ivanhoe" and "Black Arrow". There is a gorgeous Richard Gloucester performed by Alexander Filippenko, and although at the time described by Stevenson, Richard was still a baby, but ... let it be. "Hang the rest of the brave gentlemen!" One of the favorite phrases of childhood ...
    Sergei Tarasov is generally "our everything" in terms of cinema about the Middle Ages. In addition to him and the aforementioned Rostotsky's film, there is nothing more to remember on this topic ... request
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 18 December 2020 19: 28
      +5
      Yes, "Arn the Crusader"
      "Captain Alatrice"
      Not quite the Middle Ages, but still.
      It's a pity that Shpakovsky did not take up this topic ...
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 18 December 2020 19: 43
        +4
        I thought about "Alatriste", but I also decided that this was no longer the Middle Ages anyway.
        There was also the movie "Templar", but I didn't really like it, but at least I didn't spit much ...
        And here is another film definitely about the Middle Ages and definitely recommended for viewing: "The Lion in Winter". Actually, there is not much of the Middle Ages itself, but if someone has not looked, I highly recommend it. Timothy Dalton, Anthony Hopkins, Katharine Hepburn and Peter O'Toole ... It's a wonderful thing.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 18 December 2020 19: 52
          +5
          I didn't watch the film, but I read the play. And who among the fans of the history of the Middle Ages has not read it?
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 18 December 2020 20: 17
          +4
          I would also note the film "The Last of the Boleyn Family". Well, in general, if you want historicity, watch the British "costume dramas"!
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 18 December 2020 20: 25
            +4
            There is also the British TV series "The White Queen" about the Wars of the Roses. It was not very interesting for me to watch, it was enough for one episode. It's not fun to watch a movie when you know what will happen next. smile But this is, in general, not bad either. By the way, the literary basis of this series is from the same author as Boleyn.
            Well, here we threw Vera for six months to look. smile
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 18 December 2020 20: 34
              +3
              For all of you, she is Vera, and for me, the Beautiful Stranger! Do not destroy the plot of the "knightly romance"!
            2. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 18 December 2020 20: 47
              +4
              Here is my Beautiful Stranger, really a stranger, and therefore triple beautiful and intelligent. I don't know her at all, but I know for sure that she exists. She reads all my comments on the site, but she never comments anything herself. And I only sometimes guess about her existence, because only she can put such a cute, so desirable and still unexpected plus sign to my comment, while remaining anonymous and mysterious. smile
            3. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 18 December 2020 22: 20
              +3
              Oh, damn it, Mikhail! How unexpectedly sophisticated you are! Can we fight for the heart of the Beautiful Lady?
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 18 December 2020 19: 53
    +6
    The episode "This is the Spanish third" is good.
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 18 December 2020 20: 36
    +3
    Only not Norwegian, but Swedish.
    And then I really thought that the Norwegians made some kind of film about Sigurd the Crusader
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 18 December 2020 22: 05
    +3
    "Captain Alatrice"

    "Excuse me, senor, but this is the Spanish infantry!"
    Killed stupidly. It was impossible to climb into the first row with a skewer. The first few rows formed peaks. The officers had protazani (pictured - esponton). There was no place for him.
  • Krasnodar
    Krasnodar 18 December 2020 21: 42
    +2
    Quote: VlR
    In Croatia, the 8th place where this series was filmed.
    By the way, I honestly tried to watch it, but I could not: this is not the real (albeit fantasy) Middle Ages, but some kind of parody of it.

    Dragons are also far from historical, but white walkers are shown quite reliably hi drinks
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 18 December 2020 16: 37
    +5
    Colleagues, hello.
    Valery, glad to see you. Your presence is a guarantee of interesting and informative material
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 18 December 2020 17: 11
    +4
    "depicting the wise reign of King Kalman the Scribe"
    Valery, was he really a wise ruler?
    It turns out that Kalman the Knizhnik was: a younger contemporary of Yaroslav the Wise. He probably knew something about him. Has long risen from school and I can be mistaken, it seems that the Kiev principality was then noticeable in Europe
    1. Sergey Oreshin
      Sergey Oreshin 18 December 2020 17: 58
      +4
      Yes, he was a very educated and wise ruler, attracted scientists from all over Europe to his court, did a lot for the development of Hungarian culture.
      Among other things, he is known for refusing to start a "witch hunt" in his kingdom, saying: "There should be no judicial investigations about witches, which in fact do not exist."
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 18 December 2020 18: 23
        +4
        And the truly enlightened man was
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 19 December 2020 13: 56
          +4
          And the truly enlightened man was

          Guys ... how good it is on the branch! good We joke, discuss, give information - and no one swears with anyone .. I bow to Sergey Oreshin for comments! drinks Expensive, my dear People!
          1. Astra wild2
            Astra wild2 19 December 2020 15: 01
            +2
            For a long time I don't go to other "branches", except for "weapons", where Vyacheslav Olegovich has something to read
  • Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 18 December 2020 18: 01
    +3
    One of the famous Croatian thinkers of the 17th century was Yuri Krizhanich, a significant part of whose life was associated with Russia.
    It was he who, in general, to a large extent, formulated many political concepts of Pan-Slavism, advocating the unification of all Slavic peoples under the auspices of Russia, stating, in particular, that "The head of all single-tribal peoples is the Russian people ..."
    In general, his biography is extremely interesting.
  • faterdom
    faterdom 18 December 2020 23: 22
    +3
    Yes, the favorite beach-resort place of many Roman emperors and patricians has turned for almost two millennia into an arena of clashes between entire civilizations: now the Huns, now the Slavs (also newcomers) butt with Charlemagne and Byzantium, then the Magyars divide and cut with Venice, then the crusaders go back and forth, then the Ottomans, then the Austrian Germans, and in fact there is also the border of three religions right there - Catholicism, Orthodoxy and Islam. Well, pirates have flourished in these seas for millennia. From time to time, one or another power pinched them, but, as a rule, for a short time ...
    The First and Second World Wars only added to the split.
    Ruined the resort.
    Where should the patrician go now?
  • Megatron
    Megatron 19 December 2020 16: 41
    0
    Right now, the Ottomans are taking over Europe again, and she doesn't mind.
  • Elturisto
    Elturisto 19 December 2020 19: 01
    +1
    Nice, richly illustrated article, thanks to the author for the work ...