Military Review

Polish radio announced the rapprochement of a part of the leadership of the Russian Federation with "Katyn deniers"

99
Polish radio announced the rapprochement of a part of the leadership of the Russian Federation with "Katyn deniers"

In Russia, certain forces deny facts related to the Katyn crime, hiding behind slogans of restoration historical truth. This is being done by the Russian Military Historical Society (RVIO), acting at the behest of the Kremlin. Maciej Vyrva, an employee of the Center for Polish-Russian Dialogue and Accord, said this in an interview with Polskie Radio.


According to Vyrva, the Russian authorities deny the fact that the Soviet NKVD shot Polish prisoners of war. As an example, he cites the story of a memorial plaque erected in 1991 at the initiative of the Memorial Society and dedicated to the victims of Stalin's repressions. The inscription on the Katyn board was made in two languages. The text read: "In memory of the Poles from the Ostashkov camp who were killed by the NKVD in Kalinin." The board existed until 2020, and was dismantled in May.

The dismantling of the memorial plaque was initiated by the "Communists of Russia", who declared that it was illegal to find the plaque dedicated to Polish prisoners of war. The prosecutor's office found no evidence that the Poles were shot in this building and made a decision to remove the plaque.

According to a Polish employee of the Center, those involved in the dismantling of the memorial plaque are members of the Russian Military Historical Society, as well as the National Liberation Movement, a pro-Kremlin nationalist organization. Officially, the Kremlin does not deny the shooting of Polish prisoners of war, but those who hold the point of view that there was no shooting, the authorities support.

It seems that the people behind all this are not acting independently. Nobody in Russia would do such things without support. Part of the Russian leadership must be somehow connected with this

- says Polskie Radio.

The Russian military-historical society is closely connected with the power structures, - adds Vyrva, - it was created in 2012 by the decree of Vladimir Putin, it is led by Vladimir Medinsky, an adviser to the Russian president.

(...) They argue that there was no Katyn crime, and even if it did, it was committed by the Germans, who shifted responsibility onto the USSR, and the whole world began to repeat their lies. The collected documents, eyewitness accounts, the results of exhumation works, in the end, the conclusions of the Russian prosecutor's office, unequivocally testifying to the committed crime, contradict this deceitful concept

- he emphasizes.

According to him, members of the "Memorial" society, who reacted negatively to the dismantling of memorial plaques, are trying to restore historical justice. They collect signatures in support of the restoration of the boards, and also spread the true story that Polish prisoners of war were shot by Soviet special services, and not the Germans, as the RVIO claims.
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  1. Temples
    Temples 14 December 2020 08: 52
    +38
    "Katyn truth" is a shame on Yeltsin.
    Kneel down in front of the Poles.
    Even the British call them hyenas.

    To raze it to the ground is a memorial.
    1. Ascold1901
      Ascold1901 14 December 2020 08: 56
      +26
      It is necessary to set a condition - a memorial to our prisoners (20s) tortured by the Poles.
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 14 December 2020 09: 01
        +51
        No conditions for pshek. The Polish officers were shot by the Germans, that's a fact. And even if the Poles erect a memorial to our prisoners, this is not a reason to accept someone else's blame. Even if a trillion is promised. Historical truth is neither bought nor sold.
        1. Thrall
          Thrall 14 December 2020 09: 16
          +26
          Polish Katyn, Ukrainian Holodomor, Belarusian Kurapats, Soviet GULAG. Manual "How to make a fairy tale come true"
          1. Greg Miller
            Greg Miller 14 December 2020 20: 45
            +1
            You just need to initiate a criminal case on the discovery of the remains of the executed people, to exhume the bodies and the subsequent examination of the remains. But this will never be done under the current government, because in the fight against the memory of our Soviet past, the current Russian leadership and their Polish colleagues are ALLIES !!! Hatred of Stalin and the socialist past of our Motherland unites all bourgeois, regardless of their nationality !!!
        2. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 14 December 2020 09: 42
          +3
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          The Polish officers were shot by the Germans, that's a fact. And even if the Poles erect a memorial to our prisoners

          There should be a memorial in Katyn, we are not at war with the dead, but we did not shoot them. It's time to stop twisting the story.
          1. ioan-e
            ioan-e 14 December 2020 10: 31
            +6
            Quote: tihonmarine
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            The Polish officers were shot by the Germans, that's a fact. And even if the Poles erect a memorial to our prisoners

            There should be a memorial in Katyn, we are not at war with the dead, but we did not shoot them. It's time to stop twisting the story.

            "History Is Written by Winners" George Orwell. For the sake of their momentary interests, history will always be rewritten! A living example of nedouknain! As soon as we weakened during perestroika and at the beginning of the 90s, so "all the dogs were hanged on us," and we, meaning the then rulers, happily agreed with everything! If the memorial is to be left, then it must be brought into line with history, not the version of history that was imposed on us!
            1. tihonmarine
              tihonmarine 14 December 2020 11: 23
              +13
              Quote: ioan-e
              If the memorial is to be left, then it must be brought into line with history, not the version of history that was imposed on us!
              It was opened back in 1978, and then in a dedication it was written: "To the victims of fascism - Polish officers who were shot by the Nazis in 1941". This is how it should exist.
              1. Vladimir Mashkov
                Vladimir Mashkov 14 December 2020 11: 56
                +7
                Gorbachev and Yeltsin inflicted great harm on Russia not only by destroying the country ("Kemskaya volost? Take it away, the state will not become impoverished!") And almost sold it to the West in parts, but also by great damage to Russia by their "confessions". But the first is still being nursed, and the second is a monument and a museum! How long? ...
                1. tihonmarine
                  tihonmarine 14 December 2020 12: 11
                  +2
                  Quote: Vladimir Mashkov
                  But the first is still being nursed, and the second is a monument and a museum! How long?

                  And the second (Eltsin) "monument and museum", well, just like George Washington.
              2. ioan-e
                ioan-e 14 December 2020 12: 27
                0
                Quote: tihonmarine
                Quote: ioan-e
                If the memorial is to be left, then it must be brought into line with history, not the version of history that was imposed on us!
                It was opened back in 1978, and then in a dedication it was written: "To the victims of fascism - Polish officers who were shot by the Nazis in 1941". This is how it should exist.

                And in your opinion, was the carriage for the transportation of the repressed also delivered in 1978? It must be brought!
          2. Cottodraton
            Cottodraton 14 December 2020 10: 42
            +4
            She was already distorted in the 90s, for the sake of a suck to the West ... it's time to figure it out and decide this issue once and for all, and not play in speculation on the Polish manual
        3. Ascold1901
          Ascold1901 14 December 2020 13: 07
          -2
          There are several versions of Katyn. The most plausible, in my (and not only) opinion, is that the NKVD shot / executed Polish punishers from the camps of our prisoners, those that were caught in the territory that we returned to ourselves. Well, the Germans shot all the Poles and made a propaganda "bogey" out of it. So to admit "guilt" for something that does not exist .... (instead of dots, everyone will insert a suitable expletive). The situation is the same with the Molotov-Ribentrop Pact.
    2. Civil
      Civil 14 December 2020 08: 59
      -33%
      1. All lies, the Poles shot themselves to frame the Politburo of the CPSU (b).
      2. All documents from the archives that were pulled out by the USSR Prosecutor General's Office are fake, the German fascists drew and handed over to the State Archives according to the acceptance certificate.
      3. VVP got excited recognizing the execution of 20 thousand Poles.
      4. The USSR did not attack Poland, the Poles were not taken prisoner.
      5. GULAG is an invention of German intelligence, Vavilov died in an accident, volunteers worked in Kolyma.
      6. Tukhachevsky, Uborevich and Yakir were hired by the Zanzibar and Mexican intelligence services who wanted to destroy the USSR and annex Turkmenistan to Greenland, for which they were justly shot.
      We are waiting for local historians) lol
      1. volk.bosiy
        volk.bosiy 14 December 2020 09: 16
        +13
        well, you are a humariist .... a young man ... and who called up to Kachinsky ...?
        1. Civil
          Civil 14 December 2020 09: 28
          -10%
          Quote: volk.bosiy
          well, you are a humariist .... a young man ... and who called up to Kachinsky ...?

          Everyone has known this for a long time ... accursed comrade Stalin planted birches there on purpose in order to overwhelm all these Kachinskys.
      2. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 14 December 2020 09: 30
        +9
        Funny :))
        1) No. Poles were shot by the NKVD (for example, in Kharkov) and the Germans. The big question is, who exactly did it in Katyn?
        2) It may very well be. Especially those that were "pulled" by Yakovlev's people. Painfully clumsy made.
        3) This is unlikely. GDP in this sense is the successor of the Yeltsin cause.
        4) The irony is that when the Red Army crossed the border of Poland, it no longer existed as an independent state. And they took prisoners. There was a case. Of these, Anders' army was later formed ...
        5) I will not even comment.
        6) Tukhachevsky, Uborevich and Yakir did enough to be at least expelled from the army for their complete incompetence. But since it would be good if these comrades would not leave their posts, it was necessary to resolve the issue radically. By the way, I do not want to say that this is good. But these characters were not "innocent sheep". With their submission, very many voespets smeared their foreheads with brilliant green.
        In general, Tukhachevsky is a unique frame. When it is necessary to stigmatize the IVS, he becomes white and fluffy "the best theoretician of the Red Army", then suddenly they remember Antonovshchina with gas, and the same people grab onto the tar, remembering that he and other "theoreticians" did not have a higher military education, and to " Spring "they are involved and so on and so forth ...
        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 14 December 2020 09: 45
          +2
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          Especially those that were "pulled" by Yakovlev's people. Painfully clumsy made.

          "Promethean" Yakovlev did everything to throw mud at the USSR and I.V. Stalin. He set one people against another, did what he was ordered to do.
        2. Sanichsan
          Sanichsan 16 December 2020 01: 45
          0
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          then they suddenly remember the Antonov region with gas

          not that I was defending Tukhachevsky, but nonsense about gases. the document on the basis of which he is accused of this is a pronounced propaganda leaflet, but not an order request
          and angels after the civil war, in principle, could not be yes
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 16 December 2020 11: 48
            +1
            Quote: SanichSan
            but nonsense about gases

            Yes, if there was anything, then a few 76mm shells in the forest. That is, if right on the crown, then it will not seem a little (like ordinary shrapnel), but by no means horror-horror.
            Quote: SanichSan
            after the civil war, in principle, there could not be

            That's right.
      3. Moore
        Moore 14 December 2020 09: 50
        +5
        Quote: Civil
        We are waiting for local historians)

        They forgot about Anders' army. The evil Bolsheviks also revived with kabbalistic incantations from the PSS V.I. Lenin, about 80 thousand. Poles murdered by them villainously with children and household members and sent these zombies far away to Churchill.
        Nizabidimniprastim !!
      4. Cottodraton
        Cottodraton 14 December 2020 10: 43
        0
        And don't hello to you
      5. SVD68
        SVD68 14 December 2020 10: 44
        +3
        Quote: Civil
        2. All documents from the archives that were pulled out by the USSR Prosecutor General's Office are fake, the German fascists drew and handed over to the State Archives according to the acceptance certificate.

        And what is not a fake or what? If it contains an anachronism in the form of a troika, which must pass a death sentence. But the triplets did not exist by that time. And the CCO did not yet have the right to pass the death sentence.
      6. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 14 December 2020 11: 25
        +2
        Quote: Civil
        We are waiting for local historians

        Here it seems that historians will not be needed.
      7. Ascold1901
        Ascold1901 14 December 2020 13: 19
        0
        You forgot about our prisoners tortured by the Poles!
    3. Cananecat
      Cananecat 14 December 2020 09: 01
      +2
      I'm surprised that the Poles did not demand the opening of the graves for a second examination ...)
    4. Far B
      Far B 14 December 2020 09: 02
      +5
      Polish radio announced the rapprochement of a part of the leadership of the Russian Federation with "Katyn deniers"
      As for me, this rapprochement is clearly not enough - both quantitatively and qualitatively.
      Raise this memorial to the ground
      Definitely! drinks
    5. apro
      apro 14 December 2020 09: 20
      +6
      Quote: Temples
      Katyn truth "is Yeltsin's shame

      Is it just him? And the presidents after him, I understand nothing to do with?
    6. Karabin
      Karabin 14 December 2020 09: 36
      +13
      Quote: Temples
      "Katyn truth" is a shame on Yeltsin.
      Kneel down in front of the Poles.


      Meet Yeltsin. laughing
    7. Maz
      Maz 14 December 2020 09: 51
      -1
      And about our Red Army men, starved by cold and disease in Polish and German concentration camps after an unsuccessful campaign to Warsaw in 1920, they do not want to tell anything? To put up a memorial? Filthy and corrupt Poles. during the Battle of Warsaw, 25 thousand Red Army soldiers were killed, 60 thousand were captured by the Polish and 45 thousand were interned by the Germans.
      1. Constanty
        Constanty 14 December 2020 12: 53
        -1
        The Poles are also not silent about this and do not deny it. Even the Institute of National Remembrance publishes articles on this topic, there are books, and there is also a Polish-Russian commission.

        A memorial to Soviet prisoners of war who died in Poland should be erected in Poland.
        1. Sanichsan
          Sanichsan 16 December 2020 01: 50
          0
          Quote: Constanty
          A memorial to Soviet prisoners of war who died in Poland should be erected in Poland.

          you have nothing confused? set? not demolished? while only demolishing. Why shouldn't the Khatyn be demolished in Russia?
    8. Machnamh
      Machnamh 14 December 2020 12: 25
      0
      Quote: Temples
      To raze it to the ground is a memorial.


      And we have 600 thousand graves there from the time of 1944 - 1945. Our people. Our grandfathers and grandmothers too ... And we must pay tribute to the psheski --- much more behind them, they look after the graves, than there are sometimes defilers. Basically at a decent level, in our cemeteries it is not always the case for the dead. Let them there be Catholics with their womb, go to their churches to pray, to confess to their ksionzam - this is their nature and their business. On the positive side, the bosca queen strictly prohibits vandalism to the buried. This is a positive point. Well, if you equalize their memorial, how will it backfire on our sleeping in that land? The very first natural question.
      1. Constanty
        Constanty 14 December 2020 13: 04
        +4
        In Poland, Soviet cemeteries are respected. They are often looked after and cleaned. Of course, there will always be somewhere, but all acts of vandalism are branded !!!
        These soldiers died in the fight against fascism !!!
        Memory of the Fallen!

        The situation is a little different with the so-called "Monuments of gratitude to the Red Aria".
        Here, in fact, our Russophobic authorities have introduced a shameful and harmful law on their dismantling, including the tanks-monuments. But even against this, many ordinary residents are protesting - for example, in Dravsko-Pomirski, Gliwice, Lomza, Skierniewice ...
        1. Sanichsan
          Sanichsan 16 December 2020 01: 56
          0
          speaking of the memorial in Khatyn there is one delicate detail, Poland (I mean exactly Poland as a country, not “ordinary Poles.” Although they seem to be citizens of this country .. did they choose these authorities?) it is the memorial to the Poles who were shot NKVD, whether it's true or not request
  2. Pereira
    Pereira 14 December 2020 08: 53
    +10
    It seems that the Poles finally fly past the money they wanted to cut from Russia on Goebbels' propaganda.
    Goebbels is a Pole friend and teacher.
  3. Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 14 December 2020 09: 00
    +5
    The Polish authorities deny that an act of war crime was committed against prisoners of war and Red Cross employees.
  4. Garist Pavel
    Garist Pavel 14 December 2020 09: 13
    +4
    Of course, this is a myth. It was created by the VTCH traitors and the goal was to destroy the Union, demonize our past, Soviet power. The late Ilyukhin tried to open a case on falsification of historical materials. Something like this..
  5. Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 14 December 2020 09: 15
    +7
    The first documented use of weapons against non-combatants was the shooting by the Poles of the Russian Red Cross mission on January 2, 1919, this act was most likely committed by the units of the Polish Self-Defense, since the regular Polish army had not yet left Poland. In March 1919, after the Polish army occupied Pinsk, the Polish commandant ordered the execution of 40 Jews who had gathered for prayer, who were mistaken for a meeting of the Bolsheviks. Part of the hospital staff was also shot, and there is evidence of mass shootings. So, General Sikorsky (by the way, the future Prime Minister of Poland) ordered to shoot 300 Russian prisoners of war with machine guns, General Pyasetsky ordered not to take Russian soldiers alive. The camps in Stshalkovo and Tucholi were "famous" for especially terrible conditions of detention and treatment of prisoners.
    .
    In the latter, which the Russian émigré press, which was then published in Warsaw, openly called the "death camp", about 22 thousand Red Army prisoners were killed. And in total, according to some sources, 80 thousand prisoners of war were killed in concentration camps in Poland. Let us ask ourselves: after the mass extermination of prisoners of war in the early 20s, do Polish politicians have the right to shout at every corner about the "crimes of the Russians" in general and of Stalin in particular?
    1. Constanty
      Constanty 14 December 2020 09: 51
      0
      Everything that you write about actually happened. One can only argue about the number of Russian prisoners of war killed in Polish camps, because, in my opinion, this is greatly overestimated.

      However, there is a significant difference between prisoners who died as a result of epidemics and hunger, which in any case was the fault of the Polish authorities - it was their duty to take care of the prisoners.
      In fact, this is a huge cause for shame and apology on the part of my country and mine as a Pole. There should also be a memorial dedicated to the fallen soldiers of the Red Army.

      However, this does not change the fact that at least tens of thousands of Polish officers were not killed, but were killed. This is a huge difference.
      This is a sad story of a tragic past between our countries.

      Even more unpleasant is the present, where, as I see it, every day to stir up and provoke hostility with various articles here on "VO", to intensify resentment and hostility towards Poland - this is unpleasant and dangerous.
      Believe it or not, there is no such aggressive and, in my opinion, controlled campaign against Russia in Poland, apart from the extreme, marginal right-wing media.

      And so I know how many minuses I can get - it's hard, I write honestly, as it is
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 14 December 2020 10: 08
        +1
        Are you a Pole? For some reason I was sure that he was Bulgarian. As they say, bardzo psheprashem :))
        As for what you wrote ... to some extent, I agree.
        But here's what is especially sad. No one is really interested in what happened in Katyn. Everything for themselves was decided long ago and some new facts, like the new burial places of Poles found a couple of years ago (EMNIP), which were absolutely shot by the Germans, do not bother anyone.
        I can’t say anything about the company in the press, because I don’t know yours in any detail, and INOSMI is hardly a very representative sample. But there is no overly negative attitude towards Poland and the Poles among the Russians either. Well, except for professional hunters.
      2. Machnamh
        Machnamh 14 December 2020 12: 34
        0
        Quote: Constanty
        Even more unpleasant is the present, where, as I see it, every day to stir up and provoke hostility with various articles here on "VO", to intensify resentment and hostility towards Poland is unpleasant and dangerous


        At one time I really liked the statement of a Russian historian on this topic. Have you watched the Russian historical documentary series "World War II. Day by Day"? It was back to the 60th anniversary of the victory. Pretty well done. Yes, so he said: "If there should be repentance, it should be mutual." However, for some reason, all these years of repentance require only Russia.
        1. Constanty
          Constanty 14 December 2020 12: 50
          +3
          Full agreement!
          Therefore, I believe that a memorial to Soviet prisoners of war who died in Poland should be erected in Poland.

          The Poles are also not silent about this and do not deny it. Even the Institute of National Remembrance publishes articles on this topic, there are books, and there is also a Polish-Russian commission.
      3. mat-vey
        mat-vey 14 December 2020 17: 21
        0
        Quote: Constanty
        However, there is a significant difference between prisoners who died as a result of epidemics and hunger, which in any case was the fault of the Polish authorities - it was their duty to take care of the prisoners.

        Murder by starvation differs from murder by a bullet in a longer and more painful process, but it is exactly the same murder.
        1. Constanty
          Constanty 14 December 2020 18: 26
          0
          Yes, that's true - but when it comes to deliberately starving someone out, not because of the inability to deal with a huge, surprisingly large number of POWs in a war-ravaged country that is just building its institutions.
          Consent is still a drama and tragedy (although most of the prisoners died of typhus, dysentery), and the responsibility for the life and fate of prisoners of war lay with the Polish state - no doubt! however, it differs from premeditated murder.
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 14 December 2020 18: 52
            0
            Quote: Constanty
            - but when it comes to deliberately starving someone and not being unable to cope with a huge, surprisingly large number of POWs in a war-ravaged country that is just building its institutions.

            If you don't want to starve, send it home.
            1. Constanty
              Constanty 14 December 2020 19: 00
              0
              During the ongoing war, to fight them again and when tens of thousands of Polish prisoners of war were also on the side of the USSR? - let's be serious

              After the end of hostilities, both sides entered into negotiations regarding prisoners of war. An agreement on this matter was concluded between Poland and Bolshevik Russia on September 6, 1920, signed by representatives of the Polish and Russian Red Cross. Stefan Brodowski-Bratman signed a contract on behalf of the Russian side, and E. Zalewski signed a contract on behalf of Poland. This agreement extended the agreement concluded by Julian Marchlevsky in Mikarrzewice on November 2 and 9, 1919, on the release of Polish hostages by the Bolshevik side and on the exchange of civilian prisoners. The Berlin Agreement was to become the basis for the beginning of the exchange of prisoners of war between both sides of the conflict. On November 2, 1920, a Russian Red Cross delegation led by Stephanie Sempolovskaya received a military permit to enter the POW camps.

              The exchange of prisoners of war was also discussed in Article IX of the agreement on the suspension of hostilities, the so-called. Riga Peace Treaty, signed on October 12, 1920 in Riga. He supported the previously signed Repatriation Agreement: “1. Repatriation Treaty concluded between Poland, Russia and Ukraine pursuant to Article VII of the Agreement on Preliminary Peace Conditions of October 12, 1920, signed in Riga on February 24, 1921. remains in force. "As a result of these international agreements, the parties were obliged to create joint so-called mixed commissions for the care and assistance of prisoners of war. On this basis, commissions were created for the exchange of prisoners, refugees, hostages and exiles, who dealt with matters like civilians who fled or were displaced as a result of hostilities and prisoners of war captured as a result of hostilities. On December 30, the Russian and Polish sides jointly amended the so-called Repatriation Treaty, which established a replacement schedule. It indicates the number of people who were exchanged not more than 4000. weekly. First of all, these were to be civilians, internees and hostages. Each week the parties also pledged to release 1500 prisoners of war. The establishment of exchange limits was associated with logistical restrictions in the ability to serve such a large number of repatriates on both sides. ...

              By May 1921, over 24000 people had been expelled from Poland. Soviet prisoners of war, but the Russian side spent only 12,5 thousand rubles to sabotage the provisions of the treaty. Polish prisoners of war. Only after Poland completely suspended the release of Russian prisoners of war did Russia stop obstructing the evacuation of Polish soldiers. In the fall of 1921, most of the Soviet prisoners of war were sent back to Soviet Russia. As part of the exchange, more than 65 Jews left for the RSFSR. prisoners of war, and more than 000 thousand returned to Poland. The exchange of prisoners took place at the border points Stolpce and Koydanov, on the Minsk-Baranovichi railway line and at the Zdolbunov station on the Ruvne-Shepetowka line. The exchange of prisoners of war took place in large part thanks to the Russian human rights activist and chairman of the Pompolit organization (Russian: Help for political prisoners, Pompolit) - Ekaterina Peshkova (wife of Maxim Gorky, later awarded by Poland).
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 14 December 2020 19: 04
                0
                From the diary of the Red Army soldier Mikhail Ilyichev (taken prisoner on the territory of Belarus, he was a prisoner of the Stshalkovo concentration camp):
                ... in the fall of 1920 we were transported in carriages half filled with coal. The tightness was hellish, before reaching the disembarkation station, six people died. Then they marinated us for a day in some kind of swamp so that we could not lie on the ground and sleep. Then they drove under escort to the place. One wounded man could not walk, we took turns dragging him, thereby knocking down the column's pace. The convoy got tired of this, and they beat him with rifle butts.
                1. Constanty
                  Constanty 14 December 2020 19: 08
                  0
                  Could I give hundreds of similar reports from the Polish side - on the conditions for the deportation of both prisoners and civilians?

                  Only this does not change anything and did not give the right to Katyn, Ostashkuv, Mednoe ...
                  1. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 14 December 2020 19: 12
                    +1
                    Quote: Constanty
                    Only this does not change anything and did not give the right to Katyn,

                    And Katyn exists only in your imagination. The Poles showed their "human face" in Czechoslovakia before the war and on the lands of Germany transferred to Poland after the war.
                    1. Constanty
                      Constanty 14 December 2020 19: 23
                      -1
                      My family comes from the territory of modern Belarus and had the opportunity to feel like a Soviet "human face" in 1939-41, as well as Soviet and Jewish partisans, and the end of the war.

                      Bidding does not lead to anything, since you reject the documents of the President of the Russian Federation.
                      1. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 14 December 2020 19: 27
                        +1
                        Quote: Constanty
                        as well as Soviet and Jewish partisans

                        Immediately introduced yourself that you are a vulgar Nazi.
                      2. Constanty
                        Constanty 14 December 2020 19: 31
                        -1
                        Would you like to show you dozens of reports from the inhabitants of Naliboksky forest? My grandparents are no longer alive and they cannot confirm how the "heroic" Bilski and others behaved.
                      3. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 14 December 2020 19: 36
                        0
                        You, instead of "dozens of reports", can you provide something real and not Yeltsen-Yakovlev's fakes?
      4. mat-vey
        mat-vey 14 December 2020 19: 00
        +1
        And yes, the USSR did not starve the prisoners with hunger during the war, despite all the difficulties.
        1. Constanty
          Constanty 14 December 2020 19: 04
          0
          I'm sorry what ?!

          No joke - how many Poles returned after the 1920 war? - how many Germans returned after World War II? - a few% of the number of prisoners of war - what happened to the rest? They died of hunger, disease, and toil.

          What is more sad and confusing to me is the lack of trials for war crimes during the war - a crime committed, for example, by General Sikorsky. This needs to be investigated, and Sikorsky's body should be thrown from Wawel !!!
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 14 December 2020 19: 09
            0
            According to the Department for Prisoners of War and Internees of the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs on October 12, 1959, a total of 2 German servicemen were taken prisoner, of whom 389 died in captivity.
            According to the Central Finance Department of the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs, during the period from 1943 to January 1, 1950, prisoners of war worked 1 man-days, earned 077 rubles - they received a salary especially for you,
            1. Constanty
              Constanty 14 December 2020 19: 15
              0
              According to official data, 16-18 thousand people died in Polish captivity in three years. Russian prisoners of war - 8000 in Stshalkovo, 2,000 in Tuchola and 6-8 thousand in other camps. the death rate of prisoners of war in Polish camps was 17-20%, which is very similar to the official Soviet figures among Germans.

              How many percent of captured Polish officers survived?
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 14 December 2020 19: 19
                0
                Polish soldiers and generals shot the Red Army soldiers without trial, both selectively for ethnic and ideological reasons, and not selectively, mostly out of revenge. In the collection "Red Army men in Polish captivity in 1919-1922." several such executions have been documented [7]. These executions are not denied by Polish historians. [8] But most of the executions were carried out spontaneously, were not documented, and one can learn about them only from the memoirs of the surviving Red Army soldiers and the memoirs of Polish veterans.

                The Red Army soldier V.V. Valuev, who escaped from captivity, was captured on August 18 near Novominsk, testified:
                From the entire staff (about 1000 people), they elected communists, command staff, commissars and Jews, and right there in front of all the Red Army men, one Jewish commissar was beaten and then shot.
              2. mat-vey
                mat-vey 14 December 2020 19: 21
                0
                The mortality rate was especially high in the early years of the war. As a result of severe frosts, poor uniforms and poor nutrition, many prisoners, who were also exhausted by long marches, died on the way to the camps. In the post-war years, mortality has dropped significantly
              3. mat-vey
                mat-vey 14 December 2020 19: 22
                0
                Quote: Constanty
                How many percent of captured Polish officers survived?

                Do you want to ask the Germans?
                1. Constanty
                  Constanty 14 December 2020 19: 26
                  -2
                  Judging by the official documents from the Russian Federation, they were not shot by the Germans.
                  After what Yeltsin handed over to Poland, it's hard to deny
                  1. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 14 December 2020 19: 28
                    +1
                    Quote: Constanty
                    After what Yeltsin handed over to Poland, it's hard to deny

                    It is hard to deny that you are not only a Natsik, but also a great fan of fakes.
                  2. Sanichsan
                    Sanichsan 16 December 2020 02: 08
                    0
                    Quote: Constanty
                    After what Yeltsin handed over to Poland, it's hard to deny

                    um ... apparently you are not aware of the attitude towards this character in Russia. this phrase for the Russian audience is about the same as "After what Goebbels said, it's hard to deny"
                    what kind of reaction do you think this will cause in the ru segment? wink
                    well, among other things in Russia, everyone who was even a little interested in the topic knows that the documents are fake and there was a criminal case against those who created this fake request
                    I am more than sure that in Poland this delicate moment was not covered in the press wink
  • silberwolf88
    silberwolf88 14 December 2020 09: 16
    +5
    yes, it was not our crime ... the so-called "truth" about Katyn ... a gigantic hoax and lies invented to humiliate the USSR / Russia ... it's time to tie it up ... yes yes, these are the graves of the Poles ... BUT the NKVD is here not in business ...
  • apro
    apro 14 December 2020 09: 17
    -2
    Strange statements ... after all, the President of the Russian Federation clearly admitted that the NKVD of the USSR shot the Poles in Katyn and, together with the Polish President, placed wreaths at the memorial ... the Poles, as I understand it, want something more?
    1. Pereira
      Pereira 14 December 2020 09: 40
      +3
      You understand correctly. They want money.
      Germany is closing the tap, they are looking for a new place where they will eat.
      1. apro
        apro 14 December 2020 09: 43
        0
        Quote: Pereira
        Germany covers the tap

        Worse ... the time comes to pay off the EU loans, but there is no money.
        And from the Kremlin, if that money will shake out the mass of precedents ... the population of the country will be pressed and the decision of some European court will be executed.
        1. Pereira
          Pereira 14 December 2020 13: 08
          +1
          So these eagles are also going to shake Germany. Austria tensed.
  • rocket757
    rocket757 14 December 2020 09: 17
    +3
    Everything is clear with the Poles.
    It's bad that "their" paws have put their paws on the promotion of this case.
    Selling skins, for praise from the owner, for BABOSIKI, they sold everything and everyone ...
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 14 December 2020 10: 01
      +3
      Quote: rocket757
      It's bad that "their" paws have put their paws on the promotion of this case.

      Yes, what they are "their", the same "own" can be called the Vlasovites, Cossacks Panvitsa, shutsman battalions, policemen and other collaborators and traitors.
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 14 December 2020 11: 22
        +2
        Quote: tihonmarine
        Yes, what are they "their",

        It is clear that those shots were someone's tsuzi, although they were born here, some.
  • Hagen
    Hagen 14 December 2020 09: 21
    +5
    The text read: "In memory of the Poles from the Ostashkov camp killed by the NKVD in Kalinin." The board existed until 2020, and was dismantled in May.
    The dismantling of the memorial plaque was initiated by the "Communists of Russia", who declared that it was illegal to find the plaque dedicated to Polish prisoners of war. The prosecutor's office found no evidence that the Poles were shot in this building and made a decision to remove the plaque.

    Finally! It is high time to defend our view of history on our territory. "Memorial", who installed this plaque, is a foreign agent who lives and corrupts everything around him with foreign money. It is clear that this Memorial is just an instrument of the West in the war against Russia. And what the Poles write ... the paper will endure everything. Should we listen to the enemy's opinion?
    According to him, members of the Memorial Society are trying to restore historical justice, who reacted negatively to the dismantling of memorial plaques. They're collecting signatures in support of plank restoration

    In general, historical justice is restored by historical documents legitimized by court decisions, if there are any doubts about their correct interpretation. The signatures of the mass of fooled people do not establish the historical truth.
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 14 December 2020 11: 44
      +2
      Quote: Hagen
      The signatures of the mass of fooled people do not establish the historical truth.

      Yes, we always signed for something, then for "Freedom to Angela Davis", then for "Freedom for Leonard Peltier", then for the demolition of monuments. And there were always thousands of signers who did not even have a clue for what, and for whom they signed up. The habit is the same as at a collective farm meeting.
      1. Hagen
        Hagen 14 December 2020 11: 58
        +1
        Quote: tihonmarine
        And there were always thousands of signers who did not even have a clue for what, and for whom they signed up. The habit is the same as at a collective farm meeting.

        Unfortunately, you are correct. And crooks of different stripes try to use this feature every time.
  • dedBoroded
    dedBoroded 14 December 2020 09: 26
    +4
    And why did they need to demolish the monuments to Soviet soldiers-liberators? Is it really possible to shit on the memory of others and not think about the mutual relation to oneself? Such "good neighbors" are driven by exceptional rudeness, arrogance and political myopia.
    1. Victorio
      Victorio 14 December 2020 10: 00
      0
      Quote: dedBoroded
      And why did they need to demolish the monuments to Soviet soldiers-liberators? Is it really possible to shit on the memory of others and not think about the mutual relation to oneself? Such "good neighbors" are driven by exceptional rudeness, arrogance and political myopia.

      ===
      In fairness, the monuments themselves there, and in the Russian Federation too, and their condition left much to be desired. would be replaced with commemorative plaques, would not offend the memory of the fallen, and it would be easier to care for. but the Poles, or rather the authorities, need a confrontation with the Russian Federation that is in demand today.
  • Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 14 December 2020 09: 33
    +1
    Poles with Deutsches are worth each other. But the USSR tried to make normal people out of them, the NDP, the GDR ... They are Europeans, they will always be cramped there, in barbaric Europe. It's good that we are Asia. laughing
  • Karabin
    Karabin 14 December 2020 09: 41
    0
    According to a Polish employee of the Center, those involved in the dismantling of the memorial plaque are members of the Russian Military Historical Society, as well as the National Liberation Movement, a pro-Kremlin nationalist organization.

    The Pole shouldn't have gotten so excited. Mental from NOD can only "save" Putin. Katyn is too tough for them.
  • Victorio
    Victorio 14 December 2020 09: 54
    0
    This is being done by the Russian Military Historical Society (RVIO), acting at the behest of the Kremlin.
    ===
    the Poles, instead of hanging labels, would be better off actively and fully cooperating on this issue.
  • ork_333
    ork_333 14 December 2020 09: 56
    +3
    It has already been proven a thousand times that the Germans shot the Poles. But everyone rested on the "democratic confessions" of Gorbachev-Yeltsin and put the rest of the evidence with the device. The current government needs to put an end to this matter and not return to this issue anymore. And those who decide to turn everything upside down again will be judged for distorting historical facts.
  • sleeve
    sleeve 14 December 2020 10: 02
    +1
    That's interesting. Once they just asked the question: "was it exactly so"? There was nothing to answer, and it started: revisionists, hand in hand with Hitler! After all, nothing but evidence was asked. The roots of the Polish "Russian complex" are clear. And it is understandable why the Germans and Austrians do not haut for the same - a civilized master's boot is sweeter than practical independence as part of Russia. But these are all toys in comparison with Katyn. Katyn is a small step towards the transformation of Russia into an aggressor (the successor and therefore an adherent of the "bloody" USSR). To reduce us to the level of a moral outcast.
  • Valentin spagis
    Valentin spagis 14 December 2020 10: 09
    +2
    Endless talk about
    Katyn is a common propaganda action against Russia. As part of the hybrid war waged by NATO countries against Russia, big money is continuously allocated for such actions, and they are poured out of a cornucopia. Katyn, Holodomor, poisoning of Skripals, Navalny, doping in the Olympic Games, downed Boeing, interference in the American elections, Russian-phobic films, books, "research" and so on. Interestingly, and the Western man in the street is not tired of this nonsense?
  • don-1500
    don-1500 14 December 2020 10: 11
    +2
    It is better to dismantle the board once than to constantly wash it of rotten eggs and a known smelly substance.
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk 14 December 2020 10: 17
    0
    = This is being done by the Russian Military Historical Society (RVIO), acting at the behest of the Kremlin. Maciej Vyrva, an employee of the Center for Polish-Russian Dialogue and Accord, said this in an interview with Polskie Radio. =
    Vomiting lies as he breathes, - Y. Mukhin wrote his "Katyn detective" in the 90s. What is the Kremlin's "pointer" these years?
    = No one in Russia would do such things without support. Some of the Russian leadership must be somehow connected with this =
    And again - by. There were people in Russia who, contrary to the official position of the state, investigated this issue and convincingly proved that the Poles were shot by the Germans.
    = Collected documents, eyewitness accounts, the results of exhumation works, in the end, the conclusions of the Russian prosecutor's office, unequivocally =
    The Soviet prosecutor's office was based on the conclusions of the special. Commission led by the chief military surgeon of the Red Army Burdenko, which exhumed the burial. And what were the conclusions of the Russian prosecutor's office based on? On political expediency?
  • rotmistr60
    rotmistr60 14 December 2020 10: 19
    0
    Polish radio said ...
    You don't have to read any further, since the nature of the statement is predictable. They are outraged, offended, periodically threatened, and they treat Soviet monuments like a beast. Vrazhiny.
  • Graz
    Graz 14 December 2020 10: 26
    -2
    well, they slapped and slapped, in fact they were military, not civilians,
    in fact, the Poles killed many more Red Army soldiers in their camps in the 20th.
    an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth
    I do not think that here we should apologize for anything
  • Operator
    Operator 14 December 2020 10: 47
    +1
    Members of the Foreign Society Memorial are indignant along with the Poles - the murderers of the Red Army soldiers in the Polish death camps in 1920 am
  • Timofey Charuta
    Timofey Charuta 14 December 2020 11: 57
    0
    The lucid - well done, never admit their war crimes and never repent of anything.

    This is Russia - always and before everyone is to blame, a country of villains in an angelic environment ...



  • Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 14 December 2020 12: 42
    0
    This material provides eyewitness accounts of the conditions of detention and atrocities committed by Poles with captured Red Army soldiers from 1919 to 1921 in concentration camps in Domba, Wadowice, Lancut, Stshalkovo, Shchyperno, Tuchola, Brest-Litovsk, Pikulitsa, Aleksandruv-Kuyavskiy, Kalisz, Plo , Уковukow, Siedlce, Zdunska Wola, Doroguska, Petrkow, Ostrov омomrzyński and other places. The material also contains excerpts from various sources, which cite references to the number of Red Army prisoners of war killed by the Polish authorities. Member of the International Committee of the Red Cross camp in Brest:

    A sickening smell emanates from the guard rooms, as well as from the former stables, in which the prisoners of war are housed. The prisoners huddle chilly around an improvised stove, where a few logs are burning - the only way to heat. At night, hiding from the first cold weather, they are packed in tight rows in groups of 300 people in poorly lit and poorly ventilated barracks, on boards, without mattresses and blankets. The prisoners are mostly dressed in rags ...

    due to overcrowding of premises that are not suitable for living; joint close living of healthy prisoners of war and infectious patients, many of whom died immediately; malnutrition, as evidenced by numerous cases of malnutrition; edema, hunger during three months of stay in Brest - the camp in Brest-Litovsk was a real necropolis ... Head of the Sanitary Department of Poland:

    ... Covered only with rags, they huddle together, warming themselves mutually. Stench from dysentery patients and gangrene, legs swollen from hunger. In the barrack, which was just about to be freed, lay among other patients, two especially seriously ill in their own feces oozing through the upper trousers, they no longer had the strength to get up, to lie on a dry place on the bunk ...

    The reasons for this state of affairs are the general difficult situation of the country and the state after a bloody and exhausting war and the resulting shortage of food, clothing, footwear; overcrowding in camps; sending the healthy together with the sick from the front directly to the camp, without quarantine, without disinfestation; finally - and let the guilty repent of this - this is clumsiness and indifference, neglect and failure to fulfill their direct duties, which is a characteristic feature of our time ... in a letter from the head of Polish intelligence (II Division of the General Staff of the High Command of the Polish Army) Lieutenant Colonel Ignacy Matuszewski dated February 1, 1922, it was reported to the office of the Minister of War of Poland that in the Tucholsk camp during the entire period of its existence, 22 thousand prisoners of war of the Red Army were killed ...
    Based on materials: http://topwar.ru/85655-krasnoarmeycy-v-polskom-plenu.html
  • Fitter65
    Fitter65 14 December 2020 12: 45
    0
    Officially, the Kremlin does not deny the shooting of Polish prisoners of war,
    but also does not claim that
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    Polish officers were shot by the Germans,
  • Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 14 December 2020 12: 45
    +2
    But in the course of work, the German commission made several punctures, of which two were extremely significant. First: Polish prisoners were killed from German weapons. Since the shells from the excavation were stolen quite intensively, including the "excursionists" brought to the place of execution, the Germans had to admit this fact. The main service weapon of the NKVD personnel was the revolver, from which the executions were carried out. Where did the German casings come from, including those from large-caliber weapons that were not used at all in the USSR?

    There was, of course, an explanation for this fact - but such a frank pulling of an owl on the globe ... Like, the NKVD leadership, for some unknown reason, supplied the performers with “Walters” especially for this execution. Why, sorry? Why is something bad?

    The second puncture is much more significant. The Germans constantly write that they recognized the ranks of those executed by insignia. Meanwhile, according to the Soviet "Regulation on Prisoners of War" of 1931 and the secret provision of 1939, prisoners did not have the right to wear cockades and insignia - this was one of the differences between our "Regulation" from the Geneva Convention. Wearing all this was allowed only by the "Regulation" of July 1, 1941. And the fact that the uniforms of the executed were shoulder straps, and the badges - cockades, proves that they were killed either after this date, or were not held captive by the USSR, but by the state that complied with the Geneva Convention. This fact cannot be explained, therefore, supporters of the "Soviet" version simply hush it up.
  • Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 14 December 2020 12: 53
    +1
    - Supporters of the Polish (it would be more honest to say - Goebbels) version do not explain, but ignore or openly hush up inconvenient facts for themselves.

    I will list the main ones.

    First of all, it was proved: at the place of execution, German-made shells of 6,35 and 7,65 mm caliber (from GECO, as well as RWS) were found. This indicates that the Poles were killed with German pistols. The Red Army and the NKVD troops were not armed with such calibers. Attempts by the Polish side to prove the purchase of such pistols in Germany specifically for the execution of Polish prisoners of war are untenable. The NKVD agencies used their own standard weapons. These are revolvers, and the officers have TT pistols. Both are 7,62 mm.
    In addition, and this is also documented, the hands of some of the executed were tied with paper twine. In the USSR, this was not produced then, but it was produced in Europe, including in Germany.

    Another important fact: the documents on the execution of the sentence have not been found in the archives, just as the death sentence itself has not been found, without which no execution is possible in principle .... By the way, about the shots. The Poles were shot with cal. Pistols. 6.35 and 7.65. The pistils are not particularly powerful, and the sound from the shot is not particularly loud. But the guards, who were undoubtedly being executed, were armed not with pistols, but with rifles or PP. But rifle shots, and even more so bursts from the PP, are heard far away. If the Soviets were shooting the Poles, then this would certainly have been taken into account - if, suddenly, the Poles ran (which cannot be ruled out), then they would have to shoot at them, not from pestles, but from these same rifles and PPs, but shots in peacetime would have alarmed the whole district. The Germans did not care - they shot without hiding in the squares, having previously driven the population to execution.
    1. faiver
      faiver 14 December 2020 15: 01
      0
      The Red Army and the NKVD troops were not armed with such calibers.
      - Why deny the obvious? German pistols of these calibers were in service with the NKVD, and the "Tula cow" was a 6,35mm caliber, but these pistols were usually the so-called second weapon of the NKVD officers, or premium, these barrels were like an indicator of the elite among the NKVD, and Of course, these pistols were not used for executions, let alone "mass shootings"; executions were carried out using standard revolvers, TTs, or rifles ...
  • iouris
    iouris 14 December 2020 15: 07
    +2
    There is another side to this. The original propaganda campaign by the Goebbels department was launched as an excuse for what was later called the "Holocaust": in Katyn, "Jewish Bolshevik commissars" destroyed the Polish intelligentsia. Now the Goebbels department has changed the attitude.
  • Basarev
    Basarev 15 December 2020 19: 06
    -1
    It's simple. The assignment of blame to the Soviet NKVD was the purest voluntarism of the person. Lacking solid evidence, he easily ruled the country, just to nicely assent in conversation. There was a shooting, I don’t deny, but it’s not clear who shot it. I met opinions, and I am inclined to adhere to them, that the Poles were shot by Ukrainian nationalists. But the persona so easily pinned the blame on the native state. However, nothing surprising. This one is a terry anti-Soviet.
  • Pardus
    Pardus 21 December 2020 17: 05
    +8
    "Deniers of Katyn"

    Katyn was the handiwork of Germany, but not the USSR.
  • Pardus
    Pardus 21 December 2020 17: 07
    +11
    Russian authorities deny the fact that the Soviet NKVD shot Polish prisoners of war

    I also deny this fact. And as for me, Poland should be held responsible for the concentration camps in which the Red Army soldiers were kept.
  • Pardus
    Pardus 21 December 2020 17: 09
    +9
    members of the Memorial Society are trying to restore historical justice

    The Memorial Society is a Russophobic, anti-Russian structure, whose task is to distort the history of our state.