Military Review

The Germans recorded all the moves

227

Let's continue the topic of the German documents on the fight against partisans. To the accompaniment of the gnashing teeth of fairy tale lovers from the political instructors comrade Epishev, let's see what German documents from stories partisan movement.


They can give us a lot. Firstly, there are thousands of such documents (without much exaggeration) - various reports, certificates and reports on attacks, on ongoing or conducted operations, on the number of partisans and the deployment of their units, and correspondence on this matter. Secondly, they are often very detailed and contain a lot of valuable information. Thirdly, the archives also contain diagrams and maps related to the fight against partisans.

Control and accounting is about the Germans. They were not too lazy to count and write down, up to the number of rail explosions and defused mines or the number of pants seized from the partisans. So, in chess language, all the moves of the Germans were undoubtedly recorded: both the operations of the partisans and their own actions against them.

In principle, if you take up Soviet and German documents and study them in comparison, then the entire partisan struggle can be restored down to the smallest details. Here the partisans report in their report that on such and such a day they attacked such and such a point. And now the German document reports the same attack and its outcome. Comparison of two opposing points of view on the same military event provides unique information that makes it possible to assess how successful a particular guerrilla attack on the Germans was and what damage was actually done. Because the Germans used to record data about what was destroyed, damaged and destroyed.

This work should have been done long ago. If you thoroughly comb through the archives, then, I think, you can collect an almost complete set of German dispatches and reports. At least in the areas of responsibility of the Reichskommissariat, army groups, army corps, and the command of security forces.

Why hasn't this been done yet? It seems that for the reason that from such a comparison the propaganda brilliance of the partisans will fade somewhat. And many heroic deeds and defeats of garrisons will turn out to be a little unreliable, even to the point of complete fiction. Or just not very much in line with popular legends. Not to tell the pioneers about how the partisans heroically attacked a peat-mining enterprise and destroyed cars there.

Exaggeration of partisan successes is an objective thing, dictated by the conditions of partisan war. For the most part, the guerrillas could not find out about the concrete results of an attack or sabotage, since they had to retreat quickly so as not to fall under a retaliation or pursuit.

On the other hand, partisan commanders could overestimate the enemy's losses and damage in order to increase their effectiveness in the eyes of the headquarters of the partisan movement and get weapon, ammunition and explosives. At the headquarters, they apparently turned a blind eye to the works of the partisans and with some skepticism, but they immediately put it all into propaganda, since the soldiers at the front and the workers, who worked hard in the rear, definitely needed enthusiasm. The enemy is beaten in his rear - it was a powerful propaganda weapon.

Therefore, to get rid of these exaggerations, it is necessary to compare reports from both sides. For now, let's see what can be found in the German documents with a couple of examples.

Railway explosion statistics


Railways were the most important for the Eastern Front. And there statistics of explosions and sabotage were collected carefully. Here, for example, the headquarters of the General of Military Communications "Center" (General des Transportswesens Mitte, from October 1942 he was commanded by Oberst Matthias Peters) on November 5, 1942, compiled a report on sabotage, air strikes and artillery shelling of railways in the area of ​​responsibility of Feldeinsenbahn Kommando 2 ( FEKdo.2) and Haupteisenbahndirektion Minsk (HBD Minsk) from 1 to 31 October 1942 (TsAMO RF, f. 500, op. 12454, d. 395, pp. 215-217).

Zone FEKdo.2 had 52 train bombings, 19 rail and bridge bombings, 3 train attacks, 53 mining operations, 68 air raids and 29 artillery attacks. For a month, two-track tracks were blocked for 164 hours, single-track tracks - for 977 hours. In the table, these data are divided into nine directions. For example, the Smolensk - Vyazma - Gzhatsk line was blocked: both routes for 46 hours, one route for 133 hours.

The Germans recorded all the moves
Table of the number of guerrilla attacks on railways in the FEKdo area of ​​responsibility. 2

In the HBD Minsk area, there were 174 train bombings, 51 rail bombings and 8 bridge bombings, 7 train attacks, 61 mines and 20 air raids. Two-track tracks were blocked for 1115,5 hours, single-track tracks for 2119,5 hours. For example, the line Daugavpils - Indra - Polotsk - Vitebsk - Smolensk was blocked: both routes for 337 hours, one route for 582,5 hours. 35 train explosions (or every day).


The consequences of train explosions and crashes could be very frightening to look at. However, the railway workers were obliged to be able (as they do now) to quickly clean everything and restore the track, since the trains go off the rails and without any partisans. The photo shows one of the methods of restoration work. Failing to move the locomotive to the side, apparently due to the lack of a crane, the railroad workers simply paved a bending track. By the way, partisans mainly created jobs for Russian railway workers. FEKdo.2 employed 36,9 thousand people, of which only 11,3 thousand were Germans.

There were 744 hours in a month, that is, the line was stopped 45% of the time and operated with reduced capacity (one track allows transportation in both directions with special regulation) for 78% of the time. That is, the throughput of this line was cut by at least half of the attacks and sabotage of the partisans. This is exactly the line that started Operation Winter Forest, discussed in the previous article.


For a correct understanding: blowing up a train and derailing it does not always mean a complete cessation of transportation. In the photo: a train lies on its side on one track, and the other track is free for movement.

Here is another message from the commander of the security forces and rear of Army Group Center to the command of Army Group Center dated October 14, 1942. It says that the enemy, after artillery and machine-gun shelling at 5:50 am, attacked the Daugavpils - Polotsk line in the area between the Borkovichi and Drissa stations. The Borkovichi station was attacked near the company, the station and the Svoln bridge - near the battalion, and the station and the Drissa bridge - also near the battalion. The attack on Borkovichi was repulsed by fire, and on Svolna and Drissa - by counterattacks. The battle ended at about 8 am (TsAMO RF, f. 500, op. 12454, d. 428, l. 15).

I managed to find a description of the same battle in Soviet literature:

“In October 1942, the combined forces of the partisan brigades of Gerasimov, Petrakov and Zakharov carried out a simultaneous raid on eight enemy garrisons on the railway line from Borkovichi station to Drissa station. The simultaneous blow sowed panic among the Nazis, communications were inactive, there was no one to ask for help. The garrisons offered almost no resistance to the partisans. At the Borkovichi station, a water pump was broken, 17 Nazis were killed and 4 were wounded. In Svoln, partisans damaged the premises of the railway station and barracks with artillery fire. In the ensuing battle, 24 Nazis were killed and 9 were wounded. The people's avengers inflicted great damage on the enemy at other stations and garrisons. During this raid, partisans damaged railway tracks in several places, and train traffic was suspended for three days. " (VE Lobanok "In battles for the Motherland." Minsk, "Belarus", 1964, pp. 153−154).


Everything is so obvious here that there is nothing to comment on.

The idea was to break through to the bridges and blow them up, then the line would stand up for a long time, for several weeks. But it didn't work out. However, even without this, the activity of the partisans on the line significantly interfered with transportation along them. The German data show this very clearly. By the way, this was the shortest railway from Riga with its ports to the rear of Army Group Center.


In itself, the idea of ​​the partisan operation was not bad: the railway on this section crosses the Drissa and its tributary twice. And there is also a bridge across a tributary of the Western Dvina to the west of Drissa station (located near the village of Borovka). By blowing up the bridges near Svolna and Drissa, it was possible to create an isolated area, the restoration of which would be very difficult. Only the partisans did not succeed in the attack; the German garrisons were stronger.

Guerrilla warfare in numbers


Here is a report on the actions of the partisans (Bandenlagebericht), compiled at the headquarters of the 9th Army on May 26, 1944, reflecting the situation from April 26 to May 25, 1944. This is a long and detailed document describing the situation in the most detailed way.

Four partisan groups were operating in the rear of the army:

- 1st northern, in the Klichev area, north of the Berezina; about 3500 people;

- 2nd northern, northeast of the Bobruisk-Minsk road, about 5300 people;

- western, in forests and swamps between Slutsk and Maryina Gorka, about 7000 people;

- southern, in the forests of Polesie, about 3500 people.

A total of approximately 19 partisans (TsAMO RF, f. 300, op. 500, d. 12472, l. 623)


The beginning of the report of the headquarters of the 9th Army on the activity of the partisans.



General diagram of the situation in the rear of the 9th Army and an enlarged fragment with the location of the forces of the two northern groups of partisans.

It should be noted that the annex to the report contains a detailed description of the partisan forces. For example, the "Kuznetsov - Red Banner" brigade; commander Andreev, commissar Avorin. Deployed near Novye Lyady (8445 - probably referring to a sheet of a German map 1: 100 000-84). Number - 45 people, has 600 gun, 1 anti-tank guns, 2 mortars, 20 heavy and 2 light machine guns. It is divided into four groups: "Voroshilov" - 30 people, "Molotov" - 250 people, "Gastello" and "Frunze" - the number is not indicated (TsAMO RF, f. 100, op. 500, d. 12472, l. 623) ...

And so on almost all partisan detachments. The connections are marked with an index. For example, the Kuznetsov - Red Banner brigade is designated D 36, the 37th Parkhomenko Partisan Brigade - F 206. It seems that the Germans had a common card index for partisan formations and detachments. If it was not burned, then it must be archived somewhere.

Since many do not want to believe that the partisans could have been poorly armed, some data can be cited on this score. For example, a detachment "Suvorov" from the 1st Minsk brigade, stationed 3 km north of Shkavilovka, had 110 light machine guns, 3 submachine guns and 4 rifles for 40 partisans. Or, the Kirov brigade, stationed in Luzhitsa, had a seemingly good arsenal: one 76,2-mm cannon, two 45-mm anti-tank guns, 3 mortars, 12 anti-tank rifles, 3 heavy and 40 light machine guns, 100 pistols. machine guns and cars. However, out of 800 people in the brigade, 40% (or 320 people) did not have a weapon, about which there is a special note (TsAMO RF, file 500, op. 12472, file 623, l. 61).

There is an interesting note in the document about guerrilla morale. The core of the detachments was made up of communists, specialists with higher education and the Red Army, and about the rest of the partisans, the report says so (TsAMO RF, f. 500, op. 12472, d. 623, l. 46):

"Der Großteil der Banditen ist mehr oder weniger unter Zwang rekrutiert worden und hat wenig Sympathie für die Bandenbewegung".

That is, most of the partisans are recruited under duress and have little sympathy for the partisan movement. This conclusion was formed as a result of interrogations of the partisans who were captured, as well as defectors from partisan detachments. The latter were few. Since the report notes that the command of the detachments intimidates with the imminent execution of the Germans, and that German propaganda only rarely reaches the partisans.

This is an interesting factor in the struggle: the partisans used their propaganda to get the population of the occupied regions, various allies of the Germans and auxiliary troops. But the Germans could not get the partisans with their propaganda. Purely technical difficulties played an important role in this.

Despite the state of morale on both sides, the war was very tense. The appendix to the report provides information about the battles that took place and the losses incurred in them. From April 26 to May 25, 1944, the Germans carried out four operations, 129 actions with a fight, 112 actions without a fight, and had 53 clashes with partisans.

The partisans carried out 13 attacks repulsed by the Germans, 66 attacks, 24 undermining rails and 5 partially triggered explosions (25 mines were neutralized by the Germans), 61 mining roads (61 mines were neutralized by the Germans), 8 bridges were destroyed, 10 gusts of communication lines, 93 robberies ...


An example of undermining rails.

Losses of partisans: 1510 people killed, 641 taken prisoner, 24 fled to the Germans, 873 were arrested as partisans' accomplices or suspects, 2570 civilians were registered (or registered; it is not very clear what this means).

German trophies were: 75,2-mm howitzer, 3 mortars, 5 anti-tank rifles, 4 heavy and 19 light machine guns, 39 submachine guns, 277 rifles, 18 pistols. Also captured: a movie camera, 100 leather coats, 3000 pants, 284 horses, 253 cows, 440 centners (German centner - 50 kg; 22 tons) of potatoes, 97 carts. 243 partisan camps, 1885 dugouts, 8 villages and a distillery were destroyed.

German losses during operations against partisans: killed - 5 officers, 83 non-commissioned officers and soldiers, 31 "eastern assistants" (Ostfreiwillige, Soviet citizens who helped the Germans); wounded - 2 officers, 169 non-commissioned officers and soldiers, 44 assistants; missing - 2 officers, 27 non-commissioned officers and soldiers, 12 assistants. Defectors from the Germans to the partisans are also mentioned: 3 assistants and 5 hivis (Hilfswillige, Soviet citizens who entered service in the Wehrmacht unit).

The Germans lost weapons: one anti-tank gun, two mortars, two heavy and 14 light machine guns, 3 submachine guns, 10 pistols, 2 rocket launchers and 25 rifles (TsAMO RF, f. 500, op. 12472, d. 623, l. 53 −54).

So, from this report it is clear that the Germans won in most battles and inflicted very significant losses on the partisans. During the month, killed, taken prisoner (and escaped), the partisans lost 2175 people, or 11% of the number of detachments. German losses were almost ten times less: killed, wounded and missing - 288 people (without assistants and hivi).

However, the Germans were losing the war against the partisans in general. The maps show that all their activity was reduced only to pushing the partisans away from the most important roads. Major operations yielded trophies, but were militarily almost unsuccessful. The core of partisan detachments and brigades (represented by the communists and the military) could lose almost everything in defeat. But it went to another area, and after a few weeks it was overgrown with those who wanted to fight against the Germans, by persuasion or force they mobilized into detachments, acquired weapons and were ready to fight again. Therefore, the defeat of the partisan detachments and the thousands of killed partisans gave little to the Germans. In fact, it was only a grind of the local population.

So the German documents have a lot to tell, especially when viewed in a broad context. For example, the report of the 9th Army headquarters on the fight against partisans paints a picture on the eve of Operation Bagration, about a month before the offensive on Bobruisk.


From this diagram, attached to the report of the headquarters of the 9th Army on May 26, 1944, with the marked zones controlled by the partisans, it is clear how bad the situation of the 9th Army was on the eve of the battle for Bobruisk. In fact, even before the start of the battle, the army's forces were in a kind of "bottle" and had no freedom of maneuver at all.

Then the 65th Army passed through a swamp, which was considered impassable, and led the 1st Guards tank corps, which was introduced into the breakthrough of the German defense. The commander of the 65th Army I.P. Batov describes it as if the Germans believed in the designation of an impassable swamp on the map. However, I do not think that everything was as simple as Batov says.

There were also other reasons for the successful breakthrough, one of which was the participation of partisans.
Author:
227 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. Mykhalych
    Mykhalych 15 December 2020 05: 00
    +47
    And for Denis Davydov's partisan movement there is a story to tell ... As for the article, of course the Germans wrote everything down, BUT this does not beg Podvig, partisans who autonomously (this is not regular troops with their support) could inflict significant damage to the German fascist invaders ... And it is not for us to judge that. You need to remember about selflessness, courage, loyalty to your homeland. And statistics are for extras.
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 15 December 2020 06: 39
      +68
      Let's continue the topic of the German documents on the fight against partisans. To the accompaniment of the gnashing teeth of fairy tale lovers from the political instructors comrade Epishev, let's see what German documents from the history of the partisan movement can give us.
      Again, an accomplice of the Nazis Verkhoturov, he creates myths and himself dispels them. From the very first phrase alone, it already crumbles, that is, one must believe the German "documents" a priori (the Germans cannot lie about the author), but political instructors cannot be trusted.

      Administration of VO, when will you stop publishing outspoken fascists ?!
      1. NDR-791
        NDR-791 15 December 2020 07: 13
        +31
        Administration of VO, when will you stop publishing outspoken fascists ?!
        It's okay, you need to know the enemy by sight. What he thinks and what he breathes.
        ... that is, the German "documents" must be believed a priori ...
        Well, why not believe it, especially if you read it carefully? For example:
        There were 744 hours in a month, that is, the line was stopped 45% of the time and operated with reduced capacity (one track allows transportation in both directions with special regulation) for 78% of the time. That is, the throughput of this line was reduced by at least half of the attacks and sabotage of the partisans.
        Is this not a victory ??? For this, the detachments fought. We fought as best they could and knew how. And they could and could not do much at that time. You also need to understand the level of a fighter of that time. In no way will I say that our ancestors were stupider than we are, but nevertheless, the horizons were often limited to their own village and one or two newspapers. This happened much later - in the mid-80s I met a man who had never seen the railway !!! So imagine how to send such a person to blow up the bridge? He, from the grandeur of the structure, will fall into a stupor on the spot.
        Think of the article not as propaganda, but as information for analysis, for example, data on attacks and damage to railways, recovery times, etc. Given the presence of the same roads, the data is now very informative if you compare them correctly.
        1. Serg koma
          Serg koma 15 December 2020 13: 36
          +20
          Control and accounting is about the Germans.

          How many times have they debunked tales about the "control and accounting" of the Aryans in the documents, but everything is itching ... If the fascist said, then it is true, but if his grandfather told it, it was a lie am

          Thus, it can be stated that today there are no absolutely reliable sources for the losses of the German Luftwaffe on the Soviet-German front. At the same time, there is a “growth” of losses in the documents of the German Ground Forces or Kriegsmarine, which are not connected with the Luftwaffe. Therefore, apparently for quite a long time we will have to be content with the next “approaching” to the disclosure of this topic, and not “the ultimate truth”.

          https://topwar.ru/29659-chudesa-nemeckoy-statistiki.html
      2. Nicholas C.
        Nicholas C. 15 December 2020 10: 57
        +29
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        an accomplice of the Nazis verhoturov, the German "documents" must be believed a priori (the Germans cannot lie about the author), but political instructors cannot be trusted.

        Administration of VO, when will you stop publishing outspoken fascists ?!

        This next "research" on VO is equal to Bandera-fascist Russophobic propaganda and chutzpe. The logic is the same. Verkhoturov's policemen are "Soviet citizens who help" the Nazis-Hitlerites, and insidious political instructors drive people into partisans with threats, persuasion and force. Verkhoturov does not even ask the question - why. Although he himself writes that many who went to the partisans did not even have enough weapons. So why? To have extra mouths in the forest? Or, nevertheless, there were more people willing to voluntarily beat the fascists than weapons for them. And they waited to be able to get their weapons in battle. The entire article is written with the same "logic".
        On the example of my small homeland - the territory of the notorious RONA. The occupation regime was carried out by two Magyar divisions - the 102nd and the 105th. Another 108 was formally acting side by side, but practically against our own partisans. They did not go into the forest against the partisans... For this, when the front approached, and the partisans became a direct threat to the closest rear of the German front, the Germans had to collect ~ 50 thousand. troops, including a tank division, to oppose ~ 20 thousand. poorly armed partisans. The 20 thousand included partisan families, including children and the elderly, and another peace man who was hiding in the forest from Hitler's "bounty". The Nazis called this fascist operation the "Gypsy Baron". The Magyars did not enter the forest, but the easily accessible villages of the Magyars were plundered indiscriminately. Once they even robbed the house of the deputy leader RON Mosin. They Magyars don't care. But the Magyars not only robbed, they killed: women, old people, children, often burned alive together with houses, with villages, with villages. In the reports, it is published, the Magyars boast how many "partisans and their accomplices" were killed every day. And hence the "trophy" potatoes and other material values. This was the policy of the Hitlerite European Union on the genocide of the Russian people. Verkhoturov suggests accepting and approving his propaganda.
        PS. People were driven into policemen with threats. Even taking into account the "recruitment" in the concentration camps, those who volunteered to serve in the police accounted for ~ 8% of the total number. We do not have Galicia, in which 80 thousand volunteers turned up for the vacancy of one SS Galicia division.
      3. Alexfly
        Alexfly 16 December 2020 11: 55
        -10%
        Born in the USSR, at one time, they learned to read between the lines ... True, in the middle, and not like one bawler beats ... Therefore, dear, before you say anything, first find documentary arguments, not lines of fiction , even respected people ... But political instructors should be listened to, but trusting them is certainly in doubt ...
      4. nov_tech.vrn
        nov_tech.vrn 16 December 2020 13: 18
        +9
        The Overton window grows, the false "Conscience of the Nation" Solzhenitsyn, darling Admiral Kolchak, General Mannerheim, white and fluffy, then Kolya from Urengoy appears ... German documents do not lie ...
      5. Victor Churikov
        Victor Churikov 13 February 2021 15: 59
        0
        It seems that the Germans also read the memoirs about the Turkish campaign of A. V. Suvorov - "Write more, why should they be sorry for their busurman!" drinks
    2. infantryman2020
      infantryman2020 15 December 2020 08: 20
      +8
      Remember about selflessness, courage, loyalty to your Motherland!
      We are to judge! We are here on the forum.
      Whoever "is not for us to judge" has nothing to do here, go to the kitchen!
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 15 December 2020 09: 02
        +31
        Who cares, and lousy to the bath!
        Folk proverb. laughing

        Now to our piglet!
        German trophies were: 75,2-mm howitzer, 3 mortars, 5 anti-tank rifles, 4 heavy and 19 light machine guns, 39 submachine guns, 277 rifles, 18 pistols. Also captured: a movie camera, 100 leather coats, 3000 pants, 284 horses, 253 cows, 440 centners (German centner - 50 kg; 22 tons) of potatoes, 97 carts.

        Vaunted German pedantry or a Chinese caliper? Perhaps the howitzer was 76,2mm, or was it a German captured mountain 75mm gun?
        3000 pants amazed even more! Especially round numbers, including the coat. The realization that they were mainly removed from the corpses or taken from civilians can only cause tolerance towards the German nation and its allies.
        The cows, apparently, were also partisans, or were pragmatically withdrawn from the farms of just anyone. And how many got into the boiler before the "vaunted accounting"! I'm not sure that the “helpers” and “Germans”, when choosing what to eat and what to send to the heir, made the right choice between beef and biscuit? However, Gero Oberest also had to think about what to eat for breakfast!
        So, I am more inclined to the stories of our eyewitnesses of those events.
        “The cattle and chickens were hid in the forest and in the huts. If the police or the Germans found it (cattle), then they seized it. By 43 there were three goats and one cow left in the village. Only babies got milk. In the spring, it was decided to lead the cow to calving. The only bull in the area remained in the partisan detachment fifteen miles away. First, grandfather Petro went to them. Agreed for a bag of potatoes and a bottle of moonshine. Then we boys in three with a cow and a sack on its back went to the detachment. "
        I will not quote further - boys of 11-12 years old brought a cow to a bull. True, they broke a bottle of moonshine, and a cow ate half of the potatoes, which they taught did not die. The partisans themselves returned them. Together with the accidental cow.
        On my own I would only add that the place of events is Western Ukraine.
        Well, in conclusion. Any guerrilla unit is inferior to the regular army. Knowledge of the terrain only partially neutralizes a well-planned military operation. I will say more even a prepared sabotage group has limited autonomy, what to speak of the civilian population.
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 15 December 2020 15: 56
          +8
          I agree: the underpants are a masterpiece. The partisans had some kind of thrifty foreman: how many pants they prepared. I doubt that the guerrillas would store their underpants, I think that it was taken from the dead and civilians were taken away.
        2. Victor Churikov
          Victor Churikov 13 February 2021 16: 13
          +1
          So this is where these thousands of partisans come from! They destroyed the hut around the cow, and the killed residents were recorded as partisans. And really, if you think about it, why the hell in a detachment to feed people who have one rifle for six?
          --
          And in one of the districts of the Kaluga region, the grave of German intelligence, caught in a partisan ambush, is overgrown with birch trees. According to the stories of local residents, policemen in all the surrounding villages collected coffins prepared for themselves by the old people in order to put about 40 unlucky "partisan hunters" to rest.
    3. Vend
      Vend 15 December 2020 09: 58
      +19
      Quote: Mykhalych
      And for Denis Davydov's partisan movement there is something to tell ... As for the article, of course the Germans wrote everything down, BUT this does not beg Podvig, partisans who autonomously (these are not regular troops with their support) could inflict significant damage to the German fascist invaders ...
      I completely agree. German documents not only do not belittle, on the contrary, they point to the effectiveness of the partisan struggle. In one month, 52 explosions under trains, 19 explosions of rails and bridges, 3 attacks on trains, 53 mines, 68 air raids and 29 artillery attacks. For a month, two-track tracks were blocked for 164 hours, single-track tracks - for 977 hours. This is a very decent result.
      1. volodimer
        volodimer 15 December 2020 11: 56
        +12
        Interesting statistics ... They had 53 clashes with partisans, and 129 actions with combat. What is it like? If 53 times with partisans, then 73 more times they fought with whom?
        61 mining of roads (61 mines were defused by the Germans). It is that, directly, the 100% effectiveness of German sappers or mine explosions were not included in this statistic.

        That is, most of the partisans are recruited under duress and have little sympathy for the partisan movement. This conclusion was formed as a result of interrogations of the partisans who were captured, as well as defectors from partisan detachments. The latter were few. Since the report notes that the command of the detachments intimidates with the imminent execution of the Germans, and that German propaganda only rarely reaches the partisans.

        Yeah, of course, on
        Just about 19 partisans (TsAMO RF, f. 500, op. 12472, d. 623, l. 45)
        Partisan losses: 1510 killed, 641 taken prisoner, 24 deserted to the Germans, 873 arrested as partisans' accomplices or suspects, 2570 civilians were registered
        ... Here it is necessary to write something about the side of the local population.
        And don't talk about:
        The partisans got their propaganda out to the population of the occupied regions, various allies of the Germans and auxiliary troops. But the Germans could not get the partisans with their propaganda. They played an important role in this purely technical difficulties.
        и
        ..by persuasion or force mobilized into detachments ..

        This is just pure Goebbels propaganda.
    4. Megatron
      Megatron 15 December 2020 23: 24
      0
      Unfortunately, over the past decades, various poachers have cut down almost all the forests, so there will be nowhere to partisan. Perhaps in the stone jungle of megacities. Yes, and the means of counter-guerrilla warfare have grown by several orders of magnitude, in the forests it is not particularly that you can sit out.
    5. Cut Samshitov
      Cut Samshitov 16 December 2020 08: 08
      +6
      As for the article, of course the Germans wrote everything down, BUT this does not implore Podvig, partisans,
      I agree. What is really insulting, the "feats" of the Romanian, Czechoslovak and other mythical partisans, invented since the time of the corn-worker, as well as the "heroic" struggle of the French. That's where you can't do without a microscope.
      1. Victor Churikov
        Victor Churikov 13 February 2021 16: 19
        0
        Here you are wrong. Before the arrival of the Americans, all of Paris went to the Resistance. Who do you think then heroically cut the hair of the French wives of the German invaders?
    6. The comment was deleted.
  2. Far B
    Far B 15 December 2020 05: 14
    +18
    Comparison of two opposing points of view on the same military event provides unique information that makes it possible to assess how successful a particular guerrilla attack on the Germans was and what damage was actually done. Because the Germans used to record data about what was destroyed, damaged and destroyed
    And, of course, the Germans were not in the habit of lying and engaging in postscripts. This is the highest, mother ihu, race - the true Aryans. Author, stop listening to "Daichland Hubert Alles" in the morning, better roll your own moonshine in the morning and remember where whose flag ended up.
    1. apro
      apro 15 December 2020 05: 25
      -7
      Quote: Dalny V
      And, of course, the Germans were not in the habit of lying and engaging in postscripts. This is the highest, mother ihu, race - the true Aryans. Author, stop listening to "Daichland Hubert Alles" in the morning, better roll your own moonshine in the morning and remember where whose flag ended up.

      Shapkozakidstvo does not lead to good, and underestimation of the enemy is a disastrous path.
      And do not accuse the author of German worship. And to admit that the German organization casts doubt on the successes of the Soviet partisans, faith does not allow ???
      IVS Stalin's words that the winners should be judged. And knocked out of this nonsense of conceit and self-aggrandizement are still relevant today.
      1. Far B
        Far B 15 December 2020 05: 46
        +19
        Shapkozakidstvo does not lead to good
        Shapkozakidstvo after the fact? It’s you, my friend, turned it down! They bent it so that you can't unbend it, perhaps.
        German organization
        Tie about it. Until now, the Germans themselves do not even know approximately how many Volkssturms were killed at the end of the war, "organized" ...
        1. apro
          apro 15 December 2020 06: 03
          -14%
          Quote: Dalny V
          Shapkozakidstvo after the fact?

          And what does this change? Not knowing how you won. Leads to an inflated self-esteem. And adds problems in the future.
          Quote: Dalny V
          "organized".

          Even before the collapse, they put up fierce resistance and stopped fighting only after receiving an order. The Soviets had no doubts that the German army was the strongest army in the world.
          1. Far B
            Far B 15 December 2020 06: 13
            +14
            not knowing how to win. leads to inflated self-esteem. and adds problems in the future
            Maybe stop scaling with stamps?
            the German army was the strongest army in the world
            In 1945, something tells me, it was slightly inferior to the Soviet one. Not?
            Even before the collapse, they showed fierce resistance
            Where did I claim otherwise?
            1. apro
              apro 15 December 2020 06: 17
              -21%
              Quote: Dalny V
              In 1945, something tells me, it was slightly inferior to the Soviet one. Not?

              Numerically yes, organizationally, no.
              Quote: Dalny V
              Maybe stop scaling with stamps?

              Are they not faithful?
              1. Far B
                Far B 15 December 2020 06: 25
                +12
                Numerically yes, organizationally, no
                Paragraph. I don't even want to comment here.
              2. Jager
                Jager 18 December 2020 16: 52
                0
                You tell the Army Group Center. Only she then remained in black soil in the 44th.
                1. apro
                  apro 18 December 2020 16: 55
                  +1
                  And it didn't work out very well near Balaton either.
      2. Fitter65
        Fitter65 15 December 2020 11: 51
        +16
        Quote: apro
        And do not accuse the author of German worship. And to admit that the German organization casts doubt on the successes of the Soviet partisans, faith does not allow ???

        How can you, the Soviet partisans, according to the German organization-order- die Ordnung, did not have any success at all. Like our pilots, tankers, artillerymen, infantrymen, after all, already at a high level in the USA, we are told that Bialystok was liberated by American tankers. Probably soon, photographic documents will appear, and then a newsreel about how a smiling American tankman (necessarily a Negro) wiping sweat from a tired forehead greets the liberated residents of Bialystok. And again, if you believe the author (and how not to believe if, as he writes, only he was able to correctly translate German documents, and knows how to work with them correctly), then
        ... the partisans mainly created jobs for Russian railway workers.
        .That is, it turns out that the Germans had no problems with the railroad tracks. Well, think, the replenishment arrived in the evening, when it was expected in the morning, the ammunition was brought up after the Russians were able to counterattack, the tanks appeared in a day ... reports of some political instructors when people have everything die Ordnung ...
        1. apro
          apro 15 December 2020 12: 04
          -4
          Quote: Fitter65
          How can you, the Soviet partisans, according to the German organization-order- die Ordnung, did not have any success at all.

          Do not go to extremes. There were no small ones. But it is vital to study the enemy. And the documents too. Even such. IVS Stalin in order 227 on this topic definitely said that we did not have enough of the Soviets.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Fitter65
            Fitter65 15 December 2020 12: 46
            +14
            Quote: apro
            Don't go to extremes.

            This is not extreme, this is sarcasm. It is necessary to study the documents, I agree. Explore and Compare. But our author claims that he is the only one who knows how to correctly work with German documents .. True, even he gives out passages steeper than any Goebbels propagandist.
            ... So, from this report it is clear that the Germans won in most battles and inflicted very significant losses on the partisans.
            Well, reports are sacred, but read on
            ... However, the Germans were losing the war against the partisans in general.
            Oh how !!!! here really or a cross, or pants. And it turned out like in that joke, our footballers shot 34 times at the goal of Argentina, the Argentines hit our goal 3 times. The score of the meeting is 3: 0 in favor of Argentina ...
            Quote: apro
            IVS Stalin in order 227 on this topic precisely said that we lacked the Soviets.

            Well, what did he say here, what did the Soviet people lack? Order and discipline are everything ..
            1. apro
              apro 15 December 2020 12: 53
              -9
              Quote: Fitter65
              Order and discipline are everything ..

              And this is not organization? And discipline is the basis of any army and military formation.
              1. Fitter65
                Fitter65 15 December 2020 15: 46
                +8
                Quote: apro
                organization? and discipline are the basis of any army and military formation.

                Or maybe something else? It turns out that until July 28, 1942, there was no discipline and order in the military, just like in 1917, but after the order immediately discipline tightened up and order appeared?
            2. meandr51
              meandr51 15 December 2020 19: 34
              +5
              In the 45th order and discipline for some reason already lacked the Germans. And they scored a big German bolt on statistics ...
      3. meandr51
        meandr51 15 December 2020 19: 32
        0
        There was a grenade throwing. Hats are valuable!
    2. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 15 December 2020 07: 54
      +1
      ..... moonshine glasses according to your own recipe ....
      In Uzhos something what! After all, we learned about such own recipes of the author that brrrr .....
      Better anything else laughing
      1. Far B
        Far B 15 December 2020 08: 11
        +2
        After all, we learned about such author's own recipes
        So to roll it to the author myself and suggest laughing I'm not asking for a company - nafik-nafik, I am not Chonkin, he is not Gladyshev, they give me a good drink here too laughing
        1. Reptiloid
          Reptiloid 15 December 2020 08: 19
          -2
          Quote: Far In
          After all, we learned about such author's own recipes
          So to roll it to the author myself and suggest laughing I'm not asking for a company - nafik-nafik, they give me a good drink here too laughing

          Oh no! I cannot advise the author's drinks separately from the prior process No. sad
          ..... the sequence is immediately remembered. Brrrrr negative
          And before that ... grains, fruits, berries ... laughing
          Indeed --- what one person has done, another --- can always spoil. Formula of love. (Soviet film)
    3. Fitter65
      Fitter65 15 December 2020 16: 08
      +7
      Quote: Dalny V
      And, of course, the Germans were not in the habit of lying and engaging in postscripts.

      What are you, what are you. Here we take the reports of the Soviet pilots - they claim that they were shot down. But the plane fell behind the front line, so that the tail of the shot down is visible from the Soviet trenches, according to German reports, it passes as if it landed outside the airfield, but received more than 90% damage during landing, therefore it must be written off. So the main report, ordnung, so to speak. otherwise they will write to the devil. There are cool German "experts" - God forgive me so many applications in one day that you don't know who to believe, or Soviet documents, but for some reason the numbers are always lower, so most likely you need to believe the correct German, because as they wrote there, "the pilot's reputation allows his claim to be approved." Everything.
      1. Korax71
        Korax71 15 December 2020 20: 49
        +2
        I found a document in the fund of the 257th OSBR about the internship of a company of snipers of the 7th mechanized infantry division of the NKVD VV during the period 21-24 August 1942 and about their successes in 642 destroyed German soldiers and officers (it is clear that some of them must be wounded).

        They were opposed by 296 pounds, their losses during the same time

        At the same time, on August 22, the German 296th Infantry Division repulsed the offensive of the Soviet 110th and 257th Osbri with the support of 192 Tbr.
        Let's be honest - not only German ehsperds were doing postscripting.
        1. Fitter65
          Fitter65 16 December 2020 07: 22
          +1
          Quote: Korax71
          At the same time, on August 22, the German 296th Infantry Division repulsed the offensive of the Soviet 110th and 257th Osbri with the support of 192 Tbr.

          It is immediately clear that there are practically no losses, and a total mobilization has been announced. How so?
          1. Korax71
            Korax71 16 December 2020 09: 48
            -3
            In essence, what is the answer?
            1. Fitter65
              Fitter65 16 December 2020 11: 38
              +2
              Quote: Korax71
              In essence, what is the answer?

              So I say in essence, how so, according to all the reports and records, there are no losses, they won in all battles, but lost the war? Maybe the reports are not much wrong?
              1. Korax71
                Korax71 16 December 2020 13: 51
                -3
                There are many scientific works on the issues of the losses of personnel and military equipment of the Wehrmacht. The same Krivosheev completely proceeded from the data of GM and Overmas and did not cause any special complaints from him. Of course, these data are not accurate to the person. About the wrong reports - how do you imagine the underestimation of losses in the reports from the German side? let's say in the same losses of personnel you can underestimate, as a result, remain without replenishment, the same with equipment. one thing is cheating or ignorance of the reasons for the loss, another is knowingly providing inaccurate data. one is wonderful a day with such a game of numbers, you can be left with a bare bottom. and the overestimation of enemy losses in their reports is a normal world practice, which should be sorry for their adversaries wassat here it is more correct to pose the question how many times it is overstated.
                1. Fitter65
                  Fitter65 16 December 2020 14: 10
                  -1
                  Quote: Korax71
                  -How do you imagine the underestimation of losses in the reports from the German side?

                  In the light, about the same as it was on airplanes, for example.
                  Quote: Korax71
                  . one beautiful day with such a game of numbers you can be left with a bare bottom.

                  So they stayed ...
  3. pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 15 December 2020 06: 27
    +21
    The author has perfectly learned the German language, but completely forgot Russian.
    My countrywoman is Vera Voloshina, a girl with an oar.

    Look these guys in the eye. What clean, bright eyes! The eyes are the window to the soul.

    And this is the "propaganda" that reached the population so badly:

    "The girl still managed to shout, so loudly that my blood froze in my veins:" Farewell, comrades! " When I opened my eyes, I saw that it was already hanging. "
    On the same day when the Germans executed Vera, Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya was hanged in the center of the village of Petrishchevo, ten kilometers from Golovkovo.
    Look into her eyes, the bedding is German!

    Faith in Kemerovo. Maybe Tsoi is alive because Vera died?

    Doesn't a single prosecutor read this site already?
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 15 December 2020 06: 51
      +28
      pmkemcity (paul)
      Look into her eyes, the bedding is German!
      BRAVO!!! good You have expressed my idea as accurately as possible.
      Doesn't a single prosecutor read this site already?
      The fact is that our "valiant" prosecutor's office, together with our darned state, point-blankly do not notice such obscene authors, nor Victory Day posters depicting Nazis or allies instead of Red Army soldiers, nor all the rest of obscurantism.
      And how can you notice if the Minister of Culture himself is present at the unveiling of a memorial plaque to a Nazi criminal in a city where more than 800 thousand inhabitants died of hunger, arranged not without the help of this very criminal?
      1. apro
        apro 15 December 2020 06: 57
        -20%
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        pmkemcity (paul)
        Look into her eyes, the bedding is German!
        BRAVO!!! You have expressed my idea as accurately as possible.

        Serious accusation ... but for the fact that they fought with the German occupants, the Soviet Komsomol Russians gave up with a smile ... betrayed and destroyed ...
        1. Alexander Suvorov
          Alexander Suvorov 15 December 2020 06: 59
          +25
          Serious accusation ... but for the fact that they fought with the German occupants, the Soviet Komsomol Russians gave up with a smile ... betrayed and destroyed ...
          I didn’t understand the essence of your comment at all, what a set of words. What did you want to say?
          1. apro
            apro 15 December 2020 07: 06
            -24%
            Quote: Alexander Suvorov
            What did you want to say?

            And the fact that the victory of the Soviet people. Today's Russians have nothing to do. And to accuse the author of some kind of worship of the Germans in a situation where the whole of Russia lies under the West, I consider the height of cynicism.
            1. Alexander Suvorov
              Alexander Suvorov 15 December 2020 07: 23
              +26
              You seem to be Russian, but somehow you do not speak Russian. Some kind of left punctuation, even more confusing. Please explain yourself more clearly. Who exactly lies under the West? Are you personally? Well then, these are your problems. I did not lie under anyone and do not intend to, but such Nazi beddings as verkhoturov should be hung on the first aspen.
              1. apro
                apro 15 December 2020 07: 31
                -21%
                Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                You seem to be Russian, but somehow you do not speak Russian

                I am speaking in the Soviet way.
                Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                Please explain yourself more clearly. Who exactly lies under the West?

                The state is called the Russian Federation.
                Quote: Alexander Suvorov
                , and such Nazi beddings as verkhoturov should be hung on the first aspen.

                What Nazi did he write. That would jar Russian?
        2. pmkemcity
          pmkemcity 15 December 2020 09: 19
          +6
          Quote: apro
          Russians gave up with a smile, betrayed and destroyed ...

          Russians Don't Give Up! In my opinion, you are late for class!
          1. apro
            apro 15 December 2020 09: 47
            -17%
            Quote: pmkemcity
            Russians Don't Give Up

            Did 1991 confirm this?
            1. pmkemcity
              pmkemcity 15 December 2020 11: 19
              +6
              Quote: apro
              apro (Oleg Frolov)
              Today, 09: 47

              -3
              Quote: pmkemcity
              Russians Don't Give Up

              Did 1991 confirm this?

              you dropped out of school in 91?
              1. apro
                apro 15 December 2020 11: 25
                -3
                Quote: pmkemcity
                you

                Not polite of you.
                Somewhat earlier.
                1. pmkemcity
                  pmkemcity 15 December 2020 11: 28
                  +3
                  Excuse me for not being tolerant of you!
              2. Astra wild2
                Astra wild2 15 December 2020 17: 25
                +3
                Please don't poke around. Be above various provocateurs
        3. Jünger
          Jünger 15 December 2020 11: 40
          -17%
          Quote: apro
          .but for the fact that they fought with the German occupants, the Soviet Komsomol Russians with a smile zdali. betrayed and destroyed ...

          Clearly. But the opposite is also true - everything that the Russians fought for, the Soviets surrendered and destroyed.
          1. apro
            apro 15 December 2020 11: 57
            -6
            Quote: Junger
            Clearly. But the opposite is also true - everything that the Russians fought for, the Soviets surrendered and destroyed.

            Even tak.po more specifically pzhlsta.not quite understand your idea.
            1. Jünger
              Jünger 15 December 2020 12: 03
              -20%
              Quote: apro
              Even tak.po more specifically pzhlsta.not quite understand your idea.

              The Russians annexed Poland, Finland, Ukraine, Moldavia ... They built a unitary state without the Chechen republics and stanovs in its composition. The Bolsheviks broke it all down and let it go.
              And tens of millions of Russian people were allowed there.
              Do you understand the idea?
              1. apro
                apro 15 December 2020 12: 14
                +3
                Yes, the Soviets fought for both Poland and Finland, but the Russian White Guards did not like it, and they helped both the Poles and the Finals, shooting the Soviets in the back.
                Ukraine and Moldova were part of the USSR in 1991.
                Quote: Junger
                And tens of millions of Russian people were allowed there

                I explain in 1991 the population of the USSR is 300 million people and a stable population growth. The main demographic failures. Civil and WWII in the first case, the Russian White Guards killed the Soviets and received in exchange for the same coin. In the second case, the German Nazis with European hangers-on and with the support of the Russians White Guards and Russian traitors were killed by the Soviets. They also did not hesitate.
                1. Jünger
                  Jünger 15 December 2020 14: 55
                  -22%
                  Here are no fables - "the Soviets fought" ... The Soviets should have put a bullet in the head and everyone would have been better off, but instead they were destroying their homeland.
                  Quote: apro
                  I explain that in 1991 the population of the USSR is 300 million people and the stable growth of the population.

                  At the expense of the same nationalities, since Soviet citizens of Slavic blood (it is difficult to call them Russians) already preferred to have 6 million abortions a year than to give birth.
                  1. Bolt cutter
                    Bolt cutter 15 December 2020 15: 01
                    +9
                    instead, they destroyed their homeland.
                    The nuclear triad was deployed, apartments were built, schools in each village (one SS man wrote that he was surprised by the presence of so many books in German in the village school library). Destroyed as best they could. Your bla-arody, you crunch a French bun laughing or a Bavarian drink wassat?
                  2. apro
                    apro 15 December 2020 15: 15
                    +4
                    Quote: Junger
                    but instead they destroyed their homeland.

                    What is Jünger's homeland for you? That you are ready to kill Soviet people for it. Now is your homeland for the Russian Federation?
                    1. Jünger
                      Jünger 15 December 2020 15: 22
                      -19%
                      Quote: apro
                      that you are ready to kill Soviet

                      Don't kill you - you are living out your life. Like the Jews whom Moses took 40 years in the wilderness to die.
                      People who sold God, the Motherland, who killed tens of millions of babies in the womb, will not last long. And the nuclear triad won't help smile
                      Walk, cough, tell stories about Stalin, under whom they valued you and carried you on their hands.
                      In fact, you are showing your complete unfitness for modern existence. And the population that cannot adapt disappears. According to your degenerate Darwinian ideology.
                      1. apro
                        apro 15 December 2020 15: 26
                        +6
                        You did not answer the question ... what is homeland for you and Russia for you?
                      2. Jünger
                        Jünger 15 December 2020 15: 28
                        -23%
                        I am a Christian and for me, first of all, the Church is the Motherland. And the people to which I belong are Christians. They are on Sunday at liturgy in churches.
                        For it is said, comrade -
                        "But you are the chosen race, the royal priesthood, the holy people, the people taken as an inheritance." wink
                      3. apro
                        apro 15 December 2020 15: 33
                        +6
                        Quote: Junger
                        I'm a Christian

                        As I understand it, a theocratic state headed by church hierarchs? And living according to church laws? And what is the attitude to property, and what is the attitude to people who do not profess your religion?
                      4. Jünger
                        Jünger 15 December 2020 15: 37
                        -15%
                        Quote: apro
                        As I understand it, a theocratic state headed by church hierarchs

                        You probably are not aware that from the time of the baptism of the Roman Empire to the modern era, every state is just a wrapper over the church. A structure designed to protect and nourish the church. And nothing more.
                        The state is needed not in order to pay you a pension, but in order to ensure the safety of the doctrine.
                        Quote: apro
                        And what is the attitude towards property

                        Positively. Private property is sacred.
                        Quote: apro
                        And what about people who do not profess your religion?

                        Indulgent))
                      5. apro
                        apro 15 December 2020 15: 43
                        +5
                        Quote: Junger
                        every state is just a wrapper over the church

                        This is the first time I come across such a wording. Is that how I understand the church through the state solves its problems? And the population as a resource?
                      6. Jünger
                        Jünger 15 December 2020 15: 55
                        -13%
                        Quote: apro
                        This is the first time I come across this formulation.

                        It's strange. Have you heard of the symphony of the authorities?
                        Quote: apro
                        .that is, as I understand it, the church through the state solves its problems?

                        Something like that. Only you don't understand what the church is.
                        The king is a sacred order and kingdom without religion and church is impossible. The king is the church, the people are the church. Everything is a church. What is not a church, then beyond the Pale of Settlement.
                        Quote: apro
                        and the population as a resource?

                        And the population is the church, which is translated as "assembly".
                      7. apro
                        apro 15 December 2020 16: 01
                        +3
                        And the attitude towards property?
                  3. apro
                    apro 15 December 2020 16: 11
                    +5
                    Quote: Junger
                    Positively. Private property is sacred.

                    That is, do you normally relate to the fact that in the material plane people are not equal? ​​And their capabilities are limited by their material condition? Does it contradict that people are brothers?
              2. Bolt cutter
                Bolt cutter 15 December 2020 15: 43
                +3
                "But you are the chosen race, the royal priesthood, the holy people, the people taken as an inheritance."
                Avon how everything started wassat
                Christians. They are on Sunday at liturgy in churches.
                Whoever does not stand on the liturgy, and half of Africa, and all of South America. And North America, and even the Anglo-Saxons with the Balts. And what, all your tribesmen laughing What about your theses about nerus lol ?
              3. Jünger
                Jünger 15 December 2020 15: 47
                -14%
                And where did you get the idea that I am against the Anglo-Saxons with the Balts? It is you, with your communist fervor, the Anglo-Saxons incline. And for me they are as white people as Russians. Non-Christians only. So you are the same))
                Quote: Bolt Cutter
                half of Africa, and all of South America. and America

                You should improve your education - there is not a single Orthodox state in all of Africa, and in America too.
              4. Bolt cutter
                Bolt cutter 15 December 2020 15: 52
                +4
                It is you, with your communist fervor, the Anglo-Saxons incline
                In fact, I do not decline them - I even received British citizenship. This is all your Englishwoman shits.
                You should improve your education - there is not a single Orthodox state in all of Africa, and in America too.
                And the Copts in Egypt do not rub laughing I mean, not Orthodox, non-Christians for you. Cool, yes. Is it okay that Christianity is a sect of Judaism?
              5. Jünger
                Jünger 15 December 2020 15: 58
                -13%
                Quote: Bolt Cutter
                I don't actually decline them - I even got British citizenship

                Congratulations. Well I say - nerus-cosmopolitan wink
                Quote: Bolt Cutter
                And nothing that Christianity is a sect of Judaism?

                I don't care. You come from a monkey - you live laughing
              6. Bolt cutter
                Bolt cutter 15 December 2020 16: 01
                +2
                You come from a monkey - you live
                And how! And you, excuse me, what were they originally made of? laughing
                Congratulations. Well I say - nerus-cosmopolitan
                The gentlemen of the white officers were not "zapadlo" to live in Paris, and the worse I am tongue
          2. apro
            apro 15 December 2020 15: 57
            +4
            Quote: Junger
            You should improve your education - there is not a single Orthodox state in all of Africa

            Ethiopia
          3. Jünger
            Jünger 15 December 2020 16: 00
            -10%
            No, they are not brothers to us smile
          4. apro
            apro 15 December 2020 16: 03
            +4
            Quote: Junger
            No, they are not brothers to us

            That is, do not you think for equal people? Are they flawed?
          5. Jünger
            Jünger 15 December 2020 16: 14
            -17%
            They are not Orthodox. Armenians, Ethiopians and Copts are pre-Chalcedonian churches. Heretics, that is.
            All people are equal, just some will go to hell and others to heaven.
          6. apro
            apro 15 December 2020 16: 18
            +2
            Quote: Junger
            They are not Orthodox. Armenians, Ethiopians and Copts are pre-Chalcedonian churches. Heretics, that is.
            All people are equal, just some will go to hell and others to heaven.

            You can just say yes or no in your routes, I do not really understand. Yes, and this does not relate to the essence of the matter. Are they justified or not?
          7. Jünger
            Jünger 15 December 2020 16: 31
            -10%
            A friend asked you there
            you dropped out of school in 91?

            Would you like to join the question?
          8. apro
            apro 15 December 2020 16: 37
            +3
            Quote: Junger
            Would you like to join the question?

            As I understand it, a constructive dialogue will not work. All the best.
  4. Bolt cutter
    Bolt cutter 15 December 2020 16: 06
    0
    they are not brothers to us
    Who are your brothers?
  5. Jünger
    Jünger 15 December 2020 16: 15
    -19%
    Something I'm tired of your questions, comrade) Better go to Britain at the place of citizenship ... There is no one to clean the toilets there. There are not enough Poles.
  6. Bolt cutter
    Bolt cutter 15 December 2020 16: 19
    +3
    Nothing to answer laughing
    Better go to Britain according to your place of citizenship ..
    I can't go to Latvia anyway because of the covid. But don't rub me in about toilets - I'm a skilled worker, and I only clean my own (and, as my wife claims, rarely). And I can install and connect.
  7. Jünger
    Jünger 15 December 2020 21: 15
    -16%
    It turns out that your grandfather built world communism, raised collective farms, and you serve the Anglo-Saxons. Skillfully installing toilets for the capitalists, and at the same time singing about the blessings of Soviet power.
    Don't you think that something is not right here and your grandfather would have run over you with a tractor?
  8. Bolt cutter
    Bolt cutter 15 December 2020 21: 22
    +6
    grandfather then your world communism built, raised collective farms,
    Grandpa built the Soviet Union. The Union grunted, and it turned out that I needed a visa to Russia (I’m a Baltic, not an Uzbek). I live here, being a European, in Europe. I do what I want and where I want. Always good. Your White Guard idols, too, preferred to live according to "purizha". Are there any objections? And envy is a sin. They will boil in resin and fry on a spit am
  • saigon
    saigon 15 December 2020 19: 12
    +9
    Don't you think, Citizen Paphnutiy, that you incite hatred towards people for whom the Soviet Union was their homeland and who served this homeland?
    Paphnutius, maybe you should think with your head that for me, for example, the USSR remained a bright memory.
    Hear Paphnutius, my Russian ancestors have always served their country, my Tatar ancestors served the Russian tsars and their country of Russia.
    But you Pafnutiy served or can you only pour pus on the Soviet?
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 15 December 2020 19: 42
      +9
      But you Pafnutiy served or can you only pour pus on the Soviet?

      This is not pus, it is a different substance. He cannot live without her. And he can't do anything useful either, so he writes odorous comments.
    2. Jünger
      Jünger 15 December 2020 21: 24
      -12%
      You cannot boast that someone served the king and then the people who killed the king. This is psychiatry.
      Commercials and General Vlasov served his country and the police.
      This kind of thing is usually called selfishness. You choose one thing, since you cannot serve two masters.
      Quote: saigon
      Don't you think, Citizen Paphnutiy, that you incite hatred towards people for whom the Soviet Union was their homeland and who served this homeland?

      The truth must be told in any circumstances, without trying on the situation. Poorly these people served their homeland. They merged it, exchanging it for American jeans and Turbo gum.
      Therefore, as comrade. Zheglov - they should cry now and pray, but you are shaking your rights.
      1. Bolt cutter
        Bolt cutter 15 December 2020 21: 33
        +1
        that someone served the king and then the people who killed the king
        This someone served the people of the Empire, not the crowned doghunter.
        The truth must be told in any circumstances, without trying on the situation.
        ... Tell the Truth About the Effects of Abstinence on Behavior and Mind laughing
      2. saigon
        saigon 16 December 2020 07: 51
        +1
        Did Paphnutius tell you served or not?
        And why the hell to me and people like me cry and pray, and Paphnutius?
        We have fulfilled our duty to the country, and you Pafnutiy have fulfilled the duty of a citizen and just a normal peasant, or did you somehow otmazyatsya answer?
        Paphnutius you in general understand the word Motherland, do you understand that it is not determined by kings and rulers?
        They come and go, but the Motherland is either there or the brow does not have it, and then he is a man without clan and tribe, rolling dust.
      3. Jünger
        Jünger 16 December 2020 08: 16
        -6
        Saigon, who are you at all to ask me and tell me what is debt and what is not? Rub your wife about the duty of a citizen, about the country that you have flushed down the drain twice in a century. smile
        And yet - when they took the oath to the tsar, there was not a word either about the Motherland or about the people. It is not tsars who come and go, but people who swear allegiance to one, but who serve quite another. That's how your ancestors are, Saigon.
      4. saigon
        saigon 16 December 2020 11: 08
        0
        Paphnutius, so did you serve in the army or not?
        Answer in essence a nice person whose it is not clear who you are.
        Paphnutius, in general, I did not swear allegiance to the tsar, but the tsars are still leaving and Russia is and will be for evil to all who do not like it.
        Well, answer dodged service or what?
      5. Jünger
        Jünger 16 December 2020 11: 21
        -5
        Quote: saigon
        Well, answer dodged service or what?

        Be calm, Saigon - I didn't shy away or even try. smile
        Saigon, can you run 10 kilometers in 40 minutes? Answer - otherwise it is not clear who you are. To serve me yours to sneeze.
        Quote: saigon
        Paphnutius, in general, I did not swear allegiance to the tsar, but the tsars are still leaving and Russia is and will be for evil to all who do not like it.

        Russia collapsed in 1917 and also thanks to your Tatar ancestors. And the USSR in 1991 and also "thanks" to such campaigners who painted the grass green and built summer cottages for the generals.
  • Oprichnik
    Oprichnik 17 December 2020 01: 11
    -1
    Russophobe shot himself!
    1. Oprichnik
      Oprichnik 17 December 2020 01: 17
      0
      Junger - Shot to death Russophobe-whoop-sectarian! Such as this went under the yoke of anyone, if only incense was smoked
      1. Jünger
        Jünger 17 December 2020 09: 03
        +1
        The guardsmen also smoked incense, dear))
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 15 December 2020 12: 21
    +9
    Quote: Junger
    The Russians annexed Poland, Finland, Ukraine, Moldavia ... They built a unitary state without the Chechen republics and stanovs in its composition.

    Particularly unitary was the Grand Duchy of Finland - a nationalist abscess 30 kilometers from the capital. With its own authorities, bank, army, customs, police and laws. Chimera, created by Alexander I, and repaid with the Russian massacre of 1918.
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 15 December 2020 14: 16
      +18
      Alexey RA (Alexey)
      The Grand Duchy of Finland was especially unitary.
      Tsarstvo Polskoe was no better, but our home-grown crustaceans cannot explain this ANYWHERE!
      1. Jünger
        Jünger 15 December 2020 14: 54
        -10%
        At least it was. In the USSR, however, each republic was potentially such a "kingdom."
    2. Jünger
      Jünger 15 December 2020 14: 59
      -10%
      Quote: Alexey RA
      The Grand Duchy of Finland was especially unitary.

      And again - it was. And under the USSR, there was a shish with oil in this place and ancient Russian lands, like the same principalities of Finland.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 15 December 2020 15: 07
        +5
        Quote: Junger
        And again - it was. And under the USSR, there was a shish with oil in this place and ancient Russian lands, like the same principalities of Finland.

        The USSR at least returned the Vyborg province back to Russia - the same one that Alexander I tore from Russia and gave to the All-Union Film Festival.
        1. Jünger
          Jünger 15 December 2020 15: 19
          -13%
          Well enough of this nonsense laughing You yourself know that Ukraine, Kazakhstan, etc. are all Russian lands that the USSR gave out to the nationalities and exaggerated nations.
          He returned the province, and gave the younger brothers 100 times more.
          What has Russia to do with it? She was killed in 1917.
          And here is Alexander? He could do anything - the master was complete both over people and over the earth. He was not a fake democrat.
  • pmkemcity
    pmkemcity 15 December 2020 09: 09
    -1
    The fact is that our "valiant" prosecutor's office, together with our darned state, point-blankly do not notice such obscene authors, nor Victory Day posters depicting Nazis or allies instead of Red Army soldiers, nor all the rest of obscurantism.

    A policeman from the police station will read it and laugh at us. Oh well! Write, write - the Obergruppen Prosecutor of the third class will say (in the sense of graduating from three classes), and with a smile will put the daddy on the table ...
  • gsev
    gsev 16 December 2020 01: 05
    -3
    Quote: pmkemcity
    The author has perfectly learned the German language, but completely forgot Russian.

    The article does not in any way humiliate the partisans. How long could an army unit fight in an encirclement and what losses did it suffer during encirclement battles during the Great Patriotic War? Partisan detachments fought in German encirclement for 3 years. In the West, they immediately studied the phenomenon of partisan warfare in China and the USSR, and in Korea, the US partisan movement was quickly defeated. Realizing how difficult and bloody the partisan war was, it will not become less heroic. But having understood the cost of guerrilla warfare, you come to the conclusion that it is better to fight the aggressor with effective missile and aircraft weapons or weapons of mass destruction than to count on success in the guerrilla war in the future.
  • parusnik
    parusnik 15 December 2020 07: 14
    +17
    Excuse me, I will cite the propaganda of political instructor Epishev: during the occupation of the Krasnodar Territory, partisans of Pyotr Ignatov derailed 16 steam locomotives and 392 carriages and destroyed more than 40 tanks and armored cars, 36 artillery pieces, 100 field guns, 113 trucks, 100 motorcycles with cradles and even one plane. On account of this detachment, approximately 8 thousand killed German and Romanian soldiers. The number of the detachment was about 100 people. What do the German documents say about this? Moreover, the Germans have repeatedly declared the defeat of this partisan detachment. I wonder what trophies did the Germans capture after the next defeat of this detachment?
    1. Reptiloid
      Reptiloid 15 December 2020 08: 03
      +11
      .more than once declared about the defeat ...
      these words are just the punctuality of the Germans and the truthfulness
      For the article --- a bold minus. We must run away ...
  • north 2
    north 2 15 December 2020 08: 14
    +9
    the author of the article does not express his opinion. The author is clearly conducting propaganda to say between the lines of the article that there was no need to resist. Say, look, and the blown up rails brought little harm to the Germans, and the losses of partisans in battles with punishers were almost one to fifteen in favor of the Germans. And what photo illustrates this propaganda at the beginning of the article !!! The polished Germans surrounded the partisans' dugout, as if on an adventure hunt a bear's den, and with a grimace they are ready to shoot the winners ... Liberals have already published similar articles, they say, there was no need to resist the inhabitants of Leningrad ...
    And the author did not realize that the partisans were operating in the territory occupied by the Germans.
    and it was not possible to supply the partisans with weapons, while the Wehrmacht against their punishers
    the partisan could supply with whatever weapon you want and ammunition as much as you want And in the ranks of the punishers
    there were only a couple of civilian policemen standing next to ten full-time German soldiers, while ten civilian Soviet citizens, often women, old people and even children, stood in the guerrilla line next to a couple of Soviet soldiers.
    And how many meters of rope did the Nazis spend hanging thousands of Soviet partisans for the fact that those
    defended our homeland of the USSR, the author did not find any records about this from the Germans, or did he find them, but left the publication next time? Look, if you don't wake up angry comments under his today's lampoon, his even more vile article will appear.
    ps
    This is not the first time I have said that the Germans from Germany did not bring the policemen with them to the USSR. They
    they were found here in the USSR, among that part of the inhabitants of the USSR that hated Russia and Soviet patriotism, but for that they admired the German order and pedantry ...
    1. napalm
      napalm 15 December 2020 18: 39
      +5
      Then we are surprised at all sorts of kolam from Urengoy.
  • vvvjak
    vvvjak 15 December 2020 08: 59
    +8
    Not well, I understand still to carry out a comparative analysis of the fighting of the partisans according to the data from the German and Soviet sides. But to take German reports as an axiom as a basis and to draw conclusions about the partisan movement as a whole, this is clearly too much. I present the report of the German "Ober" to the higher command, in which he describes how he was defeated by a small and weakly armed partisan detachment. And in how many days would he be at the forefront of the eastern front with the rank of private?
    Py.Sy. As the grandson of a partisan, I would like to recommend the author not to continue this series of articles.
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 15 December 2020 09: 15
      +10
      Like the grandson of a partisan I would like to recommend the author not to continue this series of articles.

      I join. The author does business on the site, he receives money for it. Probably he doesn't know more honest ways.
      1. wehr
        15 December 2020 14: 17
        -10%
        If the whole question is about money, then pay me for propaganda. Generously and please in euros.
        But don't pay because they are greedy and stupid.
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 15 December 2020 14: 46
          +7
          If the whole question is about money, then pay me for propaganda. Generously and please in euros.
          But don't pay because they are greedy and stupid.

          But where can we, greedy and stupid, compete with your generous and intelligent masters. He himself admitted that you are engaged in propaganda.
          1. wehr
            15 December 2020 15: 17
            -12%
            Smart people would collect money and buy it.
            And the stupid and the greedy will suffer. laughing

            Address all claims to yourself.
            1. apro
              apro 15 December 2020 16: 53
              +5
              Quote: wehr
              Smart people would collect money and buy it.
              And the stupid and the greedy will suffer. laughing

              Address all claims to yourself.

              It’s not ridiculous. To show off corruption ... You’re the author.
              1. wehr
                15 December 2020 17: 02
                -11%
                Any work must be paid.
                1. apro
                  apro 15 December 2020 17: 12
                  +3
                  I admit it, but money loves silence.
                2. Bolt cutter
                  Bolt cutter 15 December 2020 17: 16
                  +2
                  Don't you want moonshine from feces anymore? Cognac laughing
                3. igordok
                  igordok 15 December 2020 19: 08
                  +5
                  Some types of work are paid for with 30 pieces of silver.
            2. victor50
              victor50 15 December 2020 19: 03
              +6
              Quote: wehr
              Smart people would collect money and buy it.
              And the stupid and the greedy will suffer.

              It turns out that the suspicions expressed here about loyalty to our former opponents are fair ?! Even making a mistake to write this (Smart people would collect money and buy.... Such "ideological conviction" deserves contempt.
              1. wehr
                15 December 2020 20: 22
                -11%
                Your desire to get loyalty for free, that is, for a fig under your breath, deserves contempt. Well, or for a penny at best.
                So it turns out the way it turns out. The patriotic myth, worked out by such "penny craftsmen", not to mention those who worked for a fig under their breath, is so bad that it collapses from a couple of German documents.
                Keep up the good work and the adversary will win the propaganda war against you.
                1. victor50
                  victor50 15 December 2020 20: 30
                  +5
                  Quote: wehr
                  Your pursuit of free loyalty deserves contempt

                  You rarely meet a person who prides himself on his venality. It's a pity, but based on this, your research is worthless - for the money you are ready to write anything (what you please?) - and the same for you.
                  1. wehr
                    15 December 2020 20: 31
                    -11%
                    It's just that you are too poor to order me anything, you suffer from this and pretend to be "principled" laughing
                    1. victor50
                      victor50 16 December 2020 11: 06
                      0
                      Quote: wehr
                      It's just that you are too poor to order me anything, you suffer from this and pretend to be "principled"

                      You yourself have determined the price of your essay, which at first was perceived as an amateur research - but still the work that "should be paid" - 30 pieces of silver. The customer overpaid if he appreciated it more. Its content is worth nothing, and you are not trying to refute the objection in essence.
                      1. wehr
                        17 December 2020 01: 22
                        0
                        Oh, how minus! laughing What "formidable" opponents, only capable of small dirty tricks from around the corner.
                        So you don't even have thirty shekels to pay me, let alone something more.
        2. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 15 December 2020 17: 34
          +5
          I am far from a wealthy woman, but I will pay the appropriate amount, but explain to me: WHY A FECAL DROP?
          I pay money and want to know why.
  • EvilLion
    EvilLion 15 December 2020 09: 13
    +14
    Here is the same beaten FoshYst in the rank of General Eike Mideldorf in his book "The Russian Campaign. Tactics and Armament" writes that in 43 the partisans, among other things, destroyed 2 echelons with "tigers". How much material and human resources would the Red Army have to spend to destroy 20-30, or how many of them there could be, heavy tanks in an open battle? From this point of view, the inability of the detachments, it is good if there are several hundred people, to give battle to the Germans when they sent a regiment, or even a division, did not matter much. The war is a cynical thing, of course, the Red Army command understood that weakly armed people behind enemy lines were most likely suicide bombers, even more likely than in the penal battalion, but the damage inflicted by sabotage kept much more forces from the Red Army itself, and increased the losses of the Germans. not receiving timely reinforcements and supplies from her actions.

    Well, in itself, a victory over the partisans always requires sending disproportionately large forces against them, since it is corny that people are needed to search, cordon off territories, and other activities. That is why regular armies, winning in any clash, can fight the guerrillas for years. And while a regiment of 2000 digs is combing the forest in search of a detachment of 150-200 people, it does not participate in battles against regular forces.
  • nivander
    nivander 15 December 2020 09: 26
    +5
    the Fritzes lie like they breathe --- their pedantic reports are only for pedantic bosses (like the plenipotentiary's hat at a meeting with Putin) and reports like - ".. there are no irrecoverable losses, only half of the tanks were damaged from 90 to 100%" ---- - the usual routine in the workflow
  • BAI
    BAI 15 December 2020 09: 47
    +7
    1.
    and without this, the activity of the partisans on the line significantly interfered with transportation along them.

    Those. by and large, the goal was achieved (albeit a minimum).
    2.
    That is, most of the partisans are recruited under duress and have little sympathy for the partisan movement. This conclusion was formed as a result of interrogations of the partisans who were captured, as well as defectors from partisan detachments.

    Nice pearl. And what other conclusion could have been drawn from the interrogation of the prisoners? Who in a sober mind and sound memory, being interrogated, will say that he hates the Nazis, deliberately joined the partisans and personally derailed the train?
    3. Nor and a natural result:
    However, the Germans were losing the war against the partisans in general.
    Even the author is forced to admit the obvious.
    4
    But it went to another area, and after a few weeks overgrown with those wishing to fight against the Germans, By persuasion or force, she mobilized into detachments, acquired weapons and was again ready to fight.

    Well, here the author again contradicts himself:
    most partisans are recruited under duress and have little sympathy for the partisan movement.

    "willing to fight against the Germans" is obvious.
    "carried out mobilization by force" - the author's conjecture (probably Alexievich had read a lot).
    How does the author imagine - to give a person a weapon by force and force him to fight? Is it not clear that he will either run away or turn the weapon in the opposite direction?
    They may tell me about mobilization in the active army, but there is something different. Firstly, whoever wanted to - ran away, is especially clearly seen on the conscripts of Western Ukraine and Western Belarus in June 1941, and secondly, there was something decent in a person, and even though by force, he went to fight for a just cause (the regular army and partisans - different weight categories). Thirdly, in the army it is necessary to fight far from home, and in the partisans - nearby, it is also a great incentive to leave, if not a volunteer. Fourth, the forcibly summoned is a potential traitor. For the partisans, this posed a significantly greater danger than for the army. The guerrilla is easier to destroy than the army.
    Thus, we see an example of how, using the correct initial data, the wrong conclusions are drawn for our personal point of view.

    PS. If the article contains excerpts from documents (1-2 paragraphs) in a foreign language, then their translation must be provided.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 16 December 2020 08: 29
      0
      Who in a sober mind and sound memory, being interrogated, will say that he hates the Nazis, deliberately joined the partisans and personally derailed the train?


      There were enough fanatics on both sides. German prisoners shouting "Heil Hitler" also came across.

      How does the author imagine - to give a person a weapon by force and force him to fight?


      How did you fight in civilian life? They took the unit, the officers were shot, the privates were ordered to change the cockades and go ahead. Both reds and whites did so. Again, people can be smeared in a general loyal environment, and a soldier has no right to leave the location of a unit. It's not so easy to escape.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 15 December 2020 10: 21
    +5
    The article is interesting, a lot of facts, figures, for example, that 45% of the time the railway was completely paralyzed!

    Is this not an excellent real result, recognized by the enemy himself?

    As for the partisan subscripts, God is with them, the main thing is that the occupier lost enormous resources, time, pace, and this was a significant contribution to the Victory.

    PS Somewhat redundant in the article, I think a polemical fuse.

    The topic is good, unusual, documents are given, and that's good.
  • WayKheThuo
    WayKheThuo 15 December 2020 11: 21
    +5
    In principle, if you take up Soviet and German documents and study them in comparison, then the entire partisan struggle can be restored down to the smallest details.

    But why?
    Was there an extensive guerrilla war behind enemy lines? Was! Even some!
    Were there, let's say, some exaggeration of the results thereof, both on the part of the official authorities and the partisans themselves? Of course yes! In general, this is quite understandable.
    So what? Does this somehow diminish the feat of our ancestors, who, in the most difficult conditions, often in complete isolation from communications, waged, albeit not so successful, a struggle against the occupiers? You yourself will be able, living in a dugout, in a deep forest to conduct hostilities against superior enemy forces? And not on an island in the Pacific Ocean, with an average annual temperature of +20, but in our Palestine, with an average of about zero Celsius? Most probably not. There is no need for criticism.
    Of course, if you want to talk about stupid soviet propaganda and lie-guerrillas - then, of course, this kind of "comparison" is very necessary and useful.
    Personally, it seems to me that the revealing fervor of researchers would be better directed towards a more pragmatic channel. For example, to find out who, how and where brought the huge assets of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, to find out how it turns out that prices for everything and everything are constantly growing in our country, to understand and explain to others for such a socially useful load, our deputies receive such salaries.
    These are the themes. Real, topical, interesting.
    But unsafe, and therefore, it is better to start comparing documents of the first half of the last century - this is so worried about our compatriots and so useful for ... for what? Search truths? And who needs this "truth" ?!
    Personally, I don't need it. There's only one for me TRUE - Red Banner of the Red Army over the defeated Reichstag.
    I think so.
  • Glory1974
    Glory1974 15 December 2020 11: 31
    +7
    The author compares German and Soviet propaganda. The conclusion is that German propaganda can be trusted, Soviet one cannot. request
    The documents cited, testifying that the partisans did their job, and the Germans exterminated the civilian population, make the article look like a historical study. But the article does not carry a special meaning, the conclusions are contradictory, the impression that the author admires the Germans.
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 15 December 2020 14: 00
      +17
      glory1974 (glory)
      But the article does not carry a special meaning
      You are mistaken, the article, or rather the series of articles of this Nazi litter, is designed for the gradual education of the Kolsurengoy. Commercials little by little, drop by drop, but constantly undermine the brains of not strong minds. And it seems like he did not lie, and at the same time he poured a tub of slops on the political instructors, on the partisans, and on the Soviet regime itself.
      the impression that the author admires the Germans.
      Correct impression, the author not only admires, he is a direct successor of the Goebbels cause, only unlike all kinds of freaks from the "lezhd" or "echo of matzo" he is more cunning and acts much more subtly.

      P.S. Look at the whole cycle of articles of this Nazi strip, there you will admire the photos, then a German soldier with a plow "helps" our peasants to plow the land, then a German officer next to the Ukrainian women is sorting potatoes, and the Ukrainian women in their festive national costumes came to sort out the potatoes. In general, the author uses the same Goebbels propaganda and their staged photos to the fullest.

      The question arises for whom the author is trying and what is the purpose of the VO by allowing him to place such filth at his place ?!
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 15 December 2020 11: 45
    +5
    To be honest, I do not understand some colleagues who write the author of the article directly almost to Hitler's accomplices. Compared to some other authors, yes, take at least a neighboring branch, Verkhoturov is at least studying something, looking at documents , analyzes, draws conclusions.
    I myself am somewhat surprised by the trust that the author has in German documents. In my opinion, the fact that the Germans, in their reports, just like everyone else, manipulated the figures as it was beneficial for them, has long been and irrefutably proven on specific examples. Accordingly, the reliability of their data must be proven in each specific case.
    The fact that the author comes to conclusions that are not very beautiful for us is normal. But a fascist, an "accomplice", etc. it doesn't do it in any way. Yes, the research is fragmentary, one can feel the limited ability of the author to study the materials, an uncritical approach to German sources, some haste in drawing conclusions, but here it is.
    Regarding the content of the article.
    Were there partisans? There were.
    Did they harm the Germans? Caused.
    Was the harm significant? Essential.
    Did the Germans carry out activities against the partisans? Carried out.
    Have the partisans suffered losses? Carried.
    Maybe some of your colleagues doubted that the partisans died in battles with the Germans? Did you think that life in a partisan unit was like a protracted picnic in nature or fishing with systematic forays into village shops? But some Soviet books and films do just that.
    Or does someone seriously believe that the losses of the Germans during the battles with the partisans were greater than the losses of the partisans? That the partisans killed more than they lost in battle? Or maybe someone doubts that the Germans are serious fighters, well organized and equipped? Or does he think the guerrillas were better organized and equipped?
    Well, then I don't know, for such thinkers this article should really be a heavy blow ...
    crying
    For me, the article really deserves criticism, but normal criticism, and not splashing saliva in a noble fit of indignation.
    The author did not understand the methods of calculating losses by the Germans, both their own and others', trophies, etc. For example, in battle, an explosion broke a rifle - the butt in one direction, the breech in the other. According to German data, it will be "two units of captured weapons", one or zero?
    Or a partisan camp was destroyed, in it thirteen corpses of men aged 17 years (by eye, of course), four corpses of women and five corpses of children under 17 years old (again by eye) were found. Question: how many partisans died?
    Who prepared these reports, for whom, what goals did they pursue? A lot also depends on this, no matter what someone says about German pedantry and punctuality.
    In short, there are many questions about the article, but instead of asking them to the author, some comrades just put shit in their mouths and start spitting. I suggest you, dear ones, to stop and start using your head precisely as a thinking apparatus, and not as a weapon for shooting fecal masses. Think about what you didn't like about the article and why. Coolly. Maybe then your rhetoric will change.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 15 December 2020 12: 12
      +8
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      Or a partisan camp was destroyed, in it thirteen corpses of men aged 17 years (by eye, of course), four corpses of women and five corpses of children under 17 years old (again by eye) were found. Question: how many partisans died?

      Twenty-two, of course.
      And in the partisans, you can write the entire male population of the villages that fell under the distribution during the punitive operation.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 15 December 2020 12: 54
        +1
        Quote: Alexey RA
        you can write down the entire male population of the villages,

        And you can also not be limited to men. Still, quoting figures from German reports, it would be nice to delve a little into source study - what, how and why.
        Recently, my colleague Rudorffer and his colleague recalled his 13 victories in one sortie. Moreover, credited victories.
    2. WayKheThuo
      WayKheThuo 15 December 2020 12: 16
      +4
      I like your approach. It is correct and reasonable, but, unfortunately, it does not answer the question "Why all this research?"
      Honestly, this is a kind of light trolling on my part, because I know the answer to the question, do you?
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 15 December 2020 13: 05
        +1
        Is this an exam? laughing
        I am already at that age when people are more accustomed to giving marks than receiving. smile
        It seems to me that it would be more correct if you first voice your position yourself and argue as best you can, and invite your colleagues to criticize it.
        Tell us why, in your opinion, such studies are needed, and my colleagues and I do. It will be interesting - we will discuss, argue. smile
        1. WayKheThuo
          WayKheThuo 15 December 2020 13: 57
          +8
          I am already at that age when people are more accustomed to giving marks than receiving.

          Obviously this is not an exam. So - joked not very well. Sorry.
          And if on business - my position is as follows:
          We really, really need such research: deep, thorough, with the study and comparison of not only official sources, but also rumors, factual "ducks" and falsifications, in order to be ready for an ideological struggle, and to answer any provocative question simply, clearly and essentially referring to the extracted material. At the same time, having studied the legends, myths and outright forgery one step ahead of the enemy in his attempts to denigrate, stain and throw mud at the exploits of our ancestors.
          After all, it is only for a resident of the Russian Federation that the main truth is the Red Flag of the Red Army on the Reichstag, and from the point of view of almost any inhabitant, west of the Vistula, it is an impossible irritant - how did some eastern barbarians "bend" such refined supermen ?!
          Any nation has some milestones, historical beacons - break them, extinguish them and the people will lose their identity, drown in the whirlpool of foreign cultures and spend their energy in constant repentance.
          The Great Victory is one of the stones of our foundation, and to shatter, break and grind this stone into dust is the primary task of our ideological enemies, and therefore the search for information, its structuring, rechecking and preparation of reasoned antitheses is paramount and necessary.
          But, as usual, there is a nuance - it is not advisable to publish the results of this work in open sources, because any weapon is useful when the enemy is not aware of it.
          I think so.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 15 December 2020 15: 29
            +4
            Quote: WayKhe Thuo
            I think so.

            Me too, in general. smile
            I will add only on my own behalf that a "patriotic" lie is no less dangerous than a Russophobic or anti-Soviet lie, call it what you want. In the USSR, they lied to us one thing, in Yeltsin's Russia - another, now the third is lying. The attack on history is being carried out on all fronts - from ancient times to modern times - and from several directions - ultrapatriotic, liberal-nihilistic, and several intermediate ones.
            History, as a science, these attacks do not bother with the word "absolutely" - in the scientific community some mad theories, such as, for example, about the statistic millions destroyed by Stalin in the GULAG or the Great Tartary of Fomenko, like the theory of "Flat Land", of course not pass. But this, in fact, is not required to successfully undermine the ideological base in the country. To load the information space of an ordinary man in the street with all sorts of radical pseudoscientific theories is a completely different matter. Their primitiveness, ease of understanding and a huge variety, so that everyone will find it to their liking, give pseudosciences a huge advantage over science itself, which is boring and trivial because it is too logical and consistent.
            Research such as this article is needed, and the author, of course, can be thanked for the attempt, I emphasize, the attempt to conduct an objective study of the issue raised, albeit a weak one, but an attempt.
            1. WayKheThuo
              WayKheThuo 15 December 2020 17: 03
              +3
              In terms of evaluating the Author of the article, I want to note a very important point - from what foundation and for what purpose it was written.
              You know perfectly well that any fact can be interpreted from different positions, and here the choice of the side by the Author is of fundamental importance.
              Personally, it seems to me that when the author, a citizen of the Russian Federation, begins to say that he considers the issues of the Second World War as a "pure" researcher, this is slyness.
              A pure researcher of the Second World War can be, for example, a citizen of Zimbabwe, Burkina Faso, Chad, CAR, Nicaragua or any other country whose inhabitants did not participate in the Second World War from the word "in any way".
              However, an unbiased scholar can be a Pushkin scholar or an expert on Franco-Anglo-Russian relations in the 19th century - that is, a person who studies events that have long plunged into Limb.
              In our situation, in a situation of almost guaranteed ideologization of WWII research, it is extremely necessary to determine the basic point of view, and their diversity is known to all those interested: from jingoistic patriotism to anti-Soviet hysteria.
              I believe that the author of the article tried to become a "pure" researcher with a liberal bias, which is generally not fatal, but rather weak for ideological confrontation.
              Personally, I am closer to Tvardovsky's position, which invisibly passes through the whole of Vasily Tyorkin: there were all sorts of different things, but our deed was just, the enemy was defeated, Victory is ours and our conscience is clear. Dot.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master 15 December 2020 18: 05
                +1
                Yes, I partially agree, namely in the part that the events that took place relatively recently, let's say, a hundred years ago or less, which still directly affect the living, is very difficult to study, it is difficult to abstract from your own position, your own understanding of these events , which took shape even before the actual research began. Nevertheless, I personally impute it simply to any researcher to try to be as objective as possible, abstracting from his own position. When starting a research, a researcher should not know what result this research will end with and must be ready to humbly accept any result in advance.
                You can express your attitude to the issue after the work is completed, the main theses are formulated, the argument is selected and systematized, generalizations and conclusions are made.
                On the subject of the history of the Second World War, in this regard, I like the approach of such a researcher as Vyacheslav Mosunov. He coldly and impartially dissects combat episodes, ruthlessly describing both the strengths and weaknesses of opponents, their successes and failures. But he always feels in everything that he is still "for ours", that it hurts him to write about losses and sweetly about victories, but he does it with the same scrupulousness and our soldiers do not look like miraculous heroes or semi-literate peasants, but the Germans, too, are not superhumans, and not vile cowardly mongrels.
                Verkhoturov, so far, in any case, to such a level oh how far. But he does at least try. Most authors don't even bother with this.
        2. vladcub
          vladcub 15 December 2020 17: 08
          +1
          Misha, right remark.
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 15 December 2020 18: 51
            +2
            Thank you, Slava.
            I do not really like people who only ask questions, but they themselves do not give any answers, I was afraid that my interlocutor is from this category - there are more and more of them, and it is good that WayKhe Thuo's colleague is not one of those. smile
      2. Fat
        Fat 15 December 2020 13: 27
        +3
        Quote: WayKhe Thuo
        I like your approach. It is correct and reasonable, but, unfortunately, it does not answer the question "Why all this research?"
        Honestly, this is a kind of light trolling on my part, because I know the answer to the question, do you?

        As part of the site requirements, I could not answer your question. I'll be brief. Such studies have an overestimated degree of naturalism. I hope you understand what I mean wassat ...
    3. BAI
      BAI 15 December 2020 15: 29
      +4
      analyzes, draws conclusions.

      Doesn't analyze or do. And he adjusts the facts to his point of view.
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 15 December 2020 15: 44
        +2
        Quote: BAI
        adjusts facts to fit his point of view.

        I don't see that. I have the impression that the author himself does not know what results he will eventually arrive at.
        In the place of the author, it would probably be worthwhile to study the documents, publish the numbers in them, compare the data with the available Soviet ones, criticize both without drawing conclusions. Too little information is covered for conclusions.
        Simply: there are such documents, there are such, in these such data, in these such, personally I think the following about this, and you draw your own conclusions.
        But the site needs a holivar, there's nothing to be done. Therefore, we write harshly, we give categorical and harsh assessments - these are a couple of dozen additional comments.
    4. boris epstein
      boris epstein 15 December 2020 17: 20
      +6
      "Did the partisans suffer losses? They did." But 1510 (one thousand five hundred and ten) partisans in one operation ?! Yes, such partisan formations that COULD suffer such losses could be counted on one hand. Saburov, Fedorov-Chernigovsky, Kovpak, Medvedev. Who else?!
      About hard times. Neither Fedorov-Chernigovsky, nor Kovpak, nor Medvedev hid such times. Read "From Polesie to the Carpathians" by Kovpak, "Strong in spirit" by Medvedev, "Front behind enemy lines" and "Front behind the front line" by Fedorov-Chernigovsky. Yes, there was a time when tol was smelted from unexploded bombs, risking their lives. It was that mines under the trains were blown up with the help of ropes. Small garrisons were attacked for the sake of obtaining weapons. But they fought the enemy! Hitler and his henchmen did not manage to organize such a thing. And how much intelligence information did the partisans give? After all, the Soviet bomber aviation sometimes worked according to partisan data.
      If you want to criticize ON THE CASE, read Ilya Grigorievich Starinov, when, before the operation "Bagration" (during the "Rail War"), some units chased kilometers of undermined rails on inactive areas instead of undermining bridges, or the path under the trains. But this was corrected from the Central Headquarters of the partisan movement. And again about political instructors and commissars. But in the course of the Carpathian raid, the commissar of the Kovpak formation, Rudnev, was killed. Most of the commanders of the detachments were communists and, in addition, employees of the NKVD, the same Medvedev.
      The author of the article praises the Germans for establishing movement along one path when the second was undermined. But as a former railroad worker, I can tell you that the throughput does not drop by half, as according to formal logic, but by four! This alone is a great success!
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 15 December 2020 18: 46
        +1
        Quote: Boris Epstein
        Read "From Polesye to the Carpathians" by Kovpak, "Strong in spirit" by Medvedev, "Front behind enemy lines" and "Front behind the front line" by Fedorov-Chernigovsky.

        You know, I read it. For a long time, really. I also read Manstein, Routh, Tippelskirch, Skorzeny, and many others. And he did not forget about our marshals and generals either. So - one conclusion - all lie. Not always and not in everything, someone is more, someone is less, but everyone lies. The losers, of course, are more - it is more difficult to honestly talk about defeats.
        I am not saying that the figures given by the author in the article are downright truth in the final instance. No, I believe that the numbers are most likely distorted and what was in fact is unlikely to correspond. It is necessary to study this issue deeper and correct the figures taking into account our data, other German data, raise, for example, the archives of their hospitals, how the consumption of medicines changed depending on the activity of the struggle against partisans, analyze the consumption of ammunition, fuel and lubricants for different periods, etc. Find and disassemble, at worst, the cemeteries where the Germans buried the killed partisans - where are they? How many people are buried on them? Who dug holes, when, what did they feed these diggers, where did they bring them from, where did they take them, who counted the corpses, what they thought, for whom or for what (for which service or department) did they count? And that's just what came to mind offhand.
        That's when all these questions will be answered (and the archives probably have all this, you just need to dig up, research, enter into scientific circulation), the numbers that the author operates with will change (or will not change), and we will know more reliable numbers. And these "more reliable" ones will also be corrected over time.
        The author does not extol anyone and does not belittle anyone. He gives numbers. These figures can be trusted or not. The author believes and this is his business. Perhaps he has reasons for this, which he is silent about. But these figures can be refuted only with other figures in our hands, which we do not have. And on one own life experience and "common sense" you will not go far.
        Therefore, I state that I do not trust these figures, I think that they need to be checked, checked and checked again using indirect data, but I will not deal with this myself. The figures themselves are taken into account and nothing more. Thanks to the author.
        1. boris epstein
          boris epstein 15 December 2020 19: 12
          +4
          I have Manstein, Guderian, Tippelskirch, and Halder on paper, and Schellenberg on my hard drive. When Tippelskirch says that the 48th Tank Corps, without losing a single tank, destroyed 56 (fifty-six) Soviet ones, I immediately understand from whom the author of the story learned to lie. Both Guderian and Tippelskirch had all Soviet tanks either T-34, or KV, or IS-2. Although in the Red Army
          there were BT, T-26, T-50, T-60, T-70, T-38, T-39, T-40, Valentines, Tetrarchs Matilda, Churchillies, Stewarts, Lee-Grants, Shermans. Archives. What are the archives of the ideal German war machine, especially in Operation Bagration and in the Battle of Korsun-Shevchenkovsky? In Operation Bagration, the encircled were finished off by attack aircraft - they had no time for archives. At Korsun-Shevchenkovsky, they went to break through into a blizzard - what archives, who counted the losses ?! Yes, and during the storming of the Brest Fortress, the corps commander, General Schroth THREE TIMES! reported on the capture of the fortress (. "War Diary" Halder).
          1. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master 15 December 2020 19: 32
            -1
            Well, you won’t say that our memoirists are much more truthful? Or will you?
            Memoirs are a good thing, but very subjective.
            Archives, archives and only archives. And indirectly. And check everything. The only way. Because direct witnesses will lie "like eyewitnesses."
            1. boris epstein
              boris epstein 16 December 2020 17: 13
              0
              Yes, exactly an order of magnitude and more truthful. The evacuation and deployment of production were carried out, albeit with great difficulties, but successfully, the USSR surpassed Germany in the production of military equipment (the USSR produced 120 tanks and self-propelled guns alone, and only 000 for Hitler) , ammunition, small arms (and this despite the fact that all of Europe worked for Hitler), the Wehrmacht and SS troops were defeated, the Red Banner on the Reichstag. And the main foundation of the Victory was laid even before the war - the construction of backup plants in the Urals and Siberia, which speaks of the foresight of the USSR leadership. The Nuremberg Tribunal was held over the fascist criminals (although the West did not really want to do this). Winners need not exaggerate their deeds. The result speaks for itself. Small boasting was certainly, well, a weak man. But where are the Germans, about 85 "shot down" from the best German ace against 000 from Kozhedub or 360 from Pokryshkin! Moreover, most of the German aces were shot down on the Eastern Front, that is, by Soviet pilots and anti-aircraft gunners.
            2. Oprichnik
              Oprichnik 17 December 2020 02: 11
              0
              To Mikhail - the Master of Trilobite - On the road going south-west of Minsk from Rudensk to Fanipol, there are more than 100 Germans left of those who managed to escape from the boilers in Bobruisk and Mogilev: in burnt-out equipment, ditches, swamps, pits, on the roads and fields around them ... According to local residents, after the strikes of our attack aircraft, bombers, Katyusha and artillery around dozens and hundreds of wrecked and burned cars, everything was littered with half-burnt papers, folders, documents. Therefore, there are no archives of the Wehrmacht units destroyed here at that time. It was also in many other places and times. As a translator, he talked a lot and for a long time with the Germans, both with front-line soldiers and with their children. Front-line soldiers, if they could be called to frankness, talked about huge, at the level of 000-25%, losses in companies from the summer of 30 and later. They argued that, therefore, there were very few men left in Germany and all those memoirs that the generals wrote are full of propaganda and lies. Moreover, former rank and file infantrymen and an officer of the SS tank forces, the commander of the Panther company in 1944 in the Czech Republic, also argued this. And the children of front-line soldiers whom today are 1945 years old, and more than 80 people knew such, said that all their fathers died, and only 36 in the West. And memoirs are really a very subjective thing. I am translating the memoirs of the pilot Ju-2 Stahl, and so he writes about the times of the battle near Moscow and later and not a single word about losses, and then suddenly: "... Only two aircraft remained from the regiment and our regiment was sent to re-form and replenish the rear . "
  • victor50
    victor50 15 December 2020 12: 42
    +5
    "German trophies were: 75,2-mm howitzer, 3 mortars, 5 anti-tank rifles, 4 heavy and 19 light machine guns, 39 submachine guns, 277 rifles, 18 pistols. Also captured: a movie camera, 100 leather coats, 3000 pants, 284 horses, 253 cows, 440 centners (German centner - 50 kg; 22 tons) of potatoes, 97 carts. 243 partisan camps, 1885 dugouts, 8 villages and a distillery were destroyed.

    German losses during operations against partisans: killed - 5 officers, 83 non-commissioned officers and soldiers, 31 "eastern assistants" (Ostfreiwillige, Soviet citizens who helped the Germans); wounded - 2 officers, 169 non-commissioned officers and soldiers, 44 assistants; missing - 2 officers, 27 non-commissioned officers and soldiers, 12 assistants. Defectors from the Germans to the partisans are also mentioned: 3 assistants and 5 hivis (Hilfswillige, Soviet citizens who entered service in the Wehrmacht unit).

    The Germans lost weapons: one anti-tank gun, two mortars, two heavy and 14 light machine guns, 3 submachine guns, 10 pistols, 2 rocket launchers and 25 rifles (TsAMO RF, f. 500, op. 12472, d. 623, l. 53 −54).

    So, from this report it is clear that the Germans won in most battles and inflicted very significant losses on the partisans. During the month, killed, taken prisoner (and escaped), the partisans lost 2175 people, or 11% of the number of detachments. German losses were almost ten times less: killed, wounded and missing - 288 people (without assistants and hivi).
    "
    It would be nice for the author to doubt his conclusions. With comparable losses of weapons from the Germans and partisans, human losses differ by almost an order of magnitude. From the almost identical losses in artillery and machine-gun armament, the conclusion is drawn that the Germans almost always won, as in this case. Personally, I got the feeling that in this situation there were tough battles for both sides. And the question is: whom did the Germans, annoyed by such large losses (at least in weapons), write down as the killed partisans? Civilians burned or otherwise destroyed for complicity? Or will the author undertake to assert that this did not happen? I can tell him several settlements where "there was nothing like this", in which I personally heard from the residents how it was, how the Germans fought the partisans and how many "partisans" were shot at the age of 10 and a little older.
  • iouris
    iouris 15 December 2020 13: 22
    +2
    Remember, doctrine, war is observation, accounting and control!
  • Disorder
    Disorder 15 December 2020 13: 28
    +5
    The message of the article can be expressed in one phrase:
    “The Germans always recorded everything accurately and truthfully, and the partisans were busy with the additions.
    And this is argued ...
    ... For the most part, the guerrillas could not find out about the concrete results of an attack or sabotage, since they had to retreat quickly so as not to fall under a retaliation or pursuit.

    The guerrillas did not operate in a vacuum. The author forgets that there were underground workers and partisan intelligence officers who carried out reconnaissance before and after operations.

    If it comes to that, the Germans were engaged in postscripts and distortions as much, if not more, than the partisans.
    We look:
    The losses of the partisans: 1510 people were killed, 641 were taken prisoner, 24 fled to the Germans, 873 were arrested as partisans' accomplices or suspects ...

    Compare with trophies:
    German trophies were: 75,2-mm howitzer, 3 mortars, 5 anti-tank rifles, 4 heavy and 19 light machine guns, 39 submachine guns, 277 rifles, 18 pistols.

    Weapons are not enough to arm even those taken prisoner. Or does the author believe that the partisans were armed like their ancestors in 1812?
  • Catfish
    Catfish 15 December 2020 14: 58
    +2
    ... killed 17 and wounded 4 Nazis. ... 24 Hitlerites were killed and 9 were wounded.


    The killed could be counted, at least approximately, although I doubt that there was time for that, but where does the information about the wounded Germans come from?
  • hhhhhhh
    hhhhhhh 15 December 2020 16: 39
    -1
    Preparations for the surrender of Russia have begun ...
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 15 December 2020 16: 57
      +1
      Russia is not an empty bottle, you won't be able to hand it over so easily.
      1. hhhhhhh
        hhhhhhh 15 December 2020 18: 01
        +1
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Russia is not an empty bottle, you won't be able to hand it over so easily.

        Where were such brave ones in 1991? When Russia was surrendered ...
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 15 December 2020 19: 32
          -2
          Where were you? Who where. And since then a lot of water has flowed under the bridge, and people have gained knowledge and experience, and a lot of the military. So it's not that simple in our sandbox.
          1. hhhhhhh
            hhhhhhh 15 December 2020 19: 45
            +1
            Will you personally go to the Front?
            1. The comment was deleted.
            2. Catfish
              Catfish 15 December 2020 19: 59
              0
              And you? Children's question.
              1. hhhhhhh
                hhhhhhh 15 December 2020 20: 06
                +3
                This time, yes, I will.
                The only question is, am I on the right side?)))
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 15 December 2020 20: 11
                  -1
                  If the enemy is external, then there is no question of a side. But if the "get-together" starts again, then everyone will decide for himself. Personally, I'm not going to fight for the current government, the whole question is who and what can offer instead. I don't see any options yet, but there is no desire to change the "awl for soap", they changed it once already.
                  1. hhhhhhh
                    hhhhhhh 15 December 2020 20: 15
                    +1
                    This is just a question about the side ...
                    What socialism? Stalinsky, Khrushchevsky, Braezhnevsky, Trotsky (as in the USA))))
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 15 December 2020 20: 18
                      -2
                      This is sophistry, I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in this. Happily. hi
                      1. hhhhhhh
                        hhhhhhh 15 December 2020 20: 21
                        +2
                        It's a choice. For everything good against everything bad, we have already handed out the USSR.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 15 December 2020 16: 55
    +1
    "one 76,2mm cannon, 2 45mm anti-tank guns, 3 mortars, 12 anti-tank rifles, 3 heavy machine guns" the author goes around the second circle with a shortage of weapons among the partisans.
    Let's see: 76,2mm gun, crew at least 4 people, 45mm - at least 3 people, mortars, sorry the caliber is not specified, if 82mm then at least 3 people, Maxim heavy machine gun, crew: 2 people, ATRM (the most common) 2 payment.
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 15 December 2020 17: 28
    -4
    Thanks for the interesting article, and listen to the cheers-spiteful critics less.
    1. hhhhhhh
      hhhhhhh 15 December 2020 18: 13
      +3
      Hurray-spiteful critics reached Berlin.
      1. Knell wardenheart
        Knell wardenheart 15 December 2020 18: 17
        -4
        Those who have not reached the forums.
        1. hhhhhhh
          hhhhhhh 15 December 2020 18: 19
          +3
          "For those who have not reached the forums anymore." - Therefore, they can be muddied by adjusting the facts to the European grants?
          1. Knell wardenheart
            Knell wardenheart 15 December 2020 19: 14
            -4
            When the documents listed by the author were written "European grants" did not exist yet.
            1. hhhhhhh
              hhhhhhh 15 December 2020 19: 33
              +3
              Was the Ost plan made out of sheer enthusiasm? Hitler got up on European and American money.
  • Azamat Ramazanov
    Azamat Ramazanov 15 December 2020 17: 31
    +5
    The author clearly sympathizes with the fascists
    1. hhhhhhh
      hhhhhhh 15 December 2020 18: 12
      +5
      European values. Partisans cannot be partisans in the European way.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 15 December 2020 18: 09
    +2
    "also defectors from partisan detachments" author child? !
    Agree that it is unnatural if a defector, or rather a traitor, says "I am an ideological Bolshevik" (then this expression was used).
    "The testimony of the prisoners" will be frank: the majority of those taken prisoner tried to downplay their position. For example, in the novel: "Shield and Sword", Weiss (Belov) watched the cases of prisoners in concentration camps, "a soldier of the funeral team, a Ukrainian with a Russian surname" Belov drew attention to this, if it turns out that he is a famous Stakhanovite
  • vladcub
    vladcub 15 December 2020 19: 24
    +3
    Comrades, what a lousy day: Chichkin invented a sensation on Stalin's death. Verkhotutov on kolsons makes a sensation. This is at least not clever and blasphemous.
    One uses Stalin's name for cheap likes, and the other reads the same line for likes.
    Guess what I did in my life with such "smart guys" "?
    PS
    Dear admins, save us from such "" sensations "
  • Baron pardus
    Baron pardus 15 December 2020 19: 42
    +9
    Aha "The Germans have all the moves written down" ... They are written down, but whether those moves or all, and most importantly HOW ... The counts of the dead can also be counted in different ways. In the USA, for example, a person is considered KIA (Killed in action) only if he died within 3 hours of EMNIP after injury. And then he is no longer KIA but DOW (Died of Wounds), so when his own losses are 5 people, but 4 of them lived for 3 hours, then ours honestly report to the newspapers: our losses are KIA - one person. About the fact that four more died from wounds, no one will know except their relatives. But everything is fair. :-). As classified and reported. About enemy losses. Back in Vietnam, there was a joke among American soldiers: 3 confirmed kills + 7 probables + 1 pig + 2 goats = 37 Viet Kong killed. (3 confirmed killed enemies + 7 possibly killed enemies + pig + 2 goats = 37 killed Viet Cong).
    During the same Vietnam, if an American plane reached the aircraft carrier, or to its territory, landed (normally or on a forced basis), and the plane was mutilated so that it was not worth repairing, the plane was written off, but it was NOT PROTECTED in the KILLED in battle. Have you reached your own? Yes. Is the pilot alive? Yes. Means not downed. Sometimes such aircraft were even written off as "crashed during landing approach due to severe meteorological conditions." By the way, the truth about the downed planes is found indirectly. For example, according to the report of the air rescue service of the Air Force or the Navy, how many flight personnel they evacuated from enemy territory.


    You can record as you like. The paper, you know, it will hold up. This does not mean that German documents, or even American ones, should be immediately dismissed as "nonsense and propaganda", and all Soviet documents should be taken as 100% truth ("Yes, write more, son, why should these Turks be sorry" - A.V. Suvorov ). I'm not saying that all the planes that our pilots crashed or that crashed due to technical reasons were shot down by Vietnamese pilots (especially Li Xing Qing). Everything should be CRITICAL and sober. And there is no difference who the partisan slammed - a local policeman or some kind of German. The enemy is killed and that's the end of it. yes, the partisans will write down the killed GERMAN for themselves, and the German officer will say that "there are no losses among the German soldiers"

    The best example - a tanker shoots at an enemy tank, fixes the hit and exit of the tank by the enemy crew, writes down the victory for himself (he shot, hit, the crew left the car). The tank remains on enemy territory, it is evacuated, repaired, and a week later the same tank is knocked out again. And already TWO tankers write down the same tank as "destroyed".

    The victories of many German aces also need to be treated with great doubt. Especially if "the documents have disappeared, everything except your own book", and you can write anything in the book. And before gasping, you need to trivially calculate who made how many sorties. Hartman, Glinka or Boilinton.

    About the "partisans". Yes, no one really understands who is partisan and who is not. For example, we did not understand especially who is the Taliban and who is not the Taliban. The fire was opened immediately at the slightest suspicion of aggressive behavior. Without warning. Because there were enough cases when our guys delayed to open fire, and very much regretted it. And no one wants to go to the next world or go home without some part of the body - we went to the army to earn money for college, get a profession, understand a little about life and family, and some of them for the sharp sensations, and not to be killed or crippled. They grabbed the suspicious and turned them over to the military police, let them figure it out. But then they reported that, they say, "They detained a suspected enemy combatant. Another example. From personal experience. We were fired upon from one house. We opened fire at the house in response. And from ma dusov (On the Humvee they And then they showered them with grants, getting closer. When we went into the collapsed, there were naturally corpses. Different. The spectacle is not disingenuous, it will easily vomit for the first time. And not the first time it can. Tear gold from corpses. crowns, this is not everyone can. In "destroyed enemy fighters" they recorded everyone. When you, precious, are shot from the house and your friends are wounded or killed, you will not be able to figure out who is in the house of the Taliban and who simply lives there. Nothing personal, but better you than me.

    Another example. According to all the laws, it seems like it is impossible to shoot people with large-caliber machine guns, only for equipment / equipment .. But ours did shoot, and to the questions of officers or sergeants, "Why are you shooting at people, it's not according to the charter," the shooters cheerfully answered " did not shoot at a person, but at a flask on his belt "or" shot at a machine gun on his chest. " Technically, everything is according to the law. I was shooting at the flask ... But where did I get there.
    1. Zadneprovets
      Zadneprovets 16 December 2020 23: 06
      0
      Victories are now considered in Warcraft, and the Germans.
      In the USSR, it is customary to consider damaged (disabled) and destroyed equipment.

      The account rules are different, this must be borne in mind and taken into account correctly.
  • certero
    certero 15 December 2020 22: 34
    0
    A good article is interesting. Only for some reason the author considers the loss of partisans according to German data. And on the basis of this, he makes a conclusion about the ratio of losses.
    1. aszzz888
      aszzz888 16 December 2020 06: 18
      0

      certero
      Yesterday, 22: 34
      0
      A good article is interesting. Only for some reason the author considers the loss of partisans according to German data. And on the basis of this, he makes a conclusion about the ratio of losses.
      And you have not guessed where the wind is blowing from? I guess it's not difficult. And to determine the aHtor of such opuses - the Russophobe is gone! angry
  • alpamys
    alpamys 16 December 2020 00: 19
    0
    about one captain of the Yagdkommando (Partisan Hunters).
    a year and a half ago, an acquaintance calls and says that a bunch of German uniforms fell into his hands for one owner, and a huge bunch of other things, he walked down the street and saw that someone was putting boxes near the entrance (this is how the Germans often do to get rid of unnecessary things). asked who and why, it turned out that the grandfather had died and the relatives did not want to have any business with the Nazi things, they gave him a couple more boxes in exchange for one hundred euros.
    He called me here to come and appreciate everything that he got, the purpose of resale. He did not get sour, 3 sets of field officers' uniforms of Captain Yagdkommando in excellent condition with awards, one set of a new African uniform, maps of partisan locations on Soviet territory, two boxes, a Soviet officer's tablet with a set of pencils and pens, cameras with films, a German dagger and a bunch of little things.
    so only one cap from the set of the African corps costs right now at auction from 1600 €.
    1. wehr
      16 December 2020 01: 43
      -4
      Wouldn't it make it difficult for maps to be scanned or at least photographed with a good resolution or large in parts?
      I think that you can learn a lot of interesting things.
      1. alpamys
        alpamys 16 December 2020 01: 51
        0
        Quote: wehr
        Wouldn't it make it difficult for maps to be scanned or at least photographed with a good resolution or large in parts?
        I think that you can learn a lot of interesting things.

        all sold to one collector from Italy. Maps were not of particular interest, everyone is interested in uniforms.
  • Timofey Charuta
    Timofey Charuta 16 December 2020 01: 29
    -4
    And I generally liked the article. Photos are cool. I did not know that the partisans had artillery and used it actively.

    The disadvantages include the absence of the author's commentary on the German figures of partisan losses. Actually, this is mainly the anger of critics. The Fritzes enrolled civilians as partisans and brag about it to their superiors ...

    I think the author does not deserve such devastating criticism.
  • Mwg
    Mwg 16 December 2020 03: 34
    +3
    "Why hasn't this been done so far? It seems that for the reason that from such a comparison the propaganda brilliance of the partisans will fade somewhat." - the key to the whole article. Another attempt of another Westernizer-Nazi-truth-teller to shit in the history of the Second World War
  • aszzz888
    aszzz888 16 December 2020 06: 14
    +2
    Author:
    Dmitry Verkhoturov
    Just not in the ass kissed the Nazis! angry These are the ones who jumped to serve the Germans. angry
    That is, most of the partisans are recruited under duress and have little sympathy for the partisan movement.
    The finished Russophobe !!! angry
  • anclevalico
    anclevalico 16 December 2020 07: 54
    0
    Let's take on another milestone in the war, which we didn't get to, and shoot a bunch of nasty films about it with evil NKVD officers and lying partisans! And the Germans, yes, they are perfect, they already wrote everything down ...
  • Irbenwolf
    Irbenwolf 16 December 2020 15: 00
    +1
    I read 4 paragraphs and the comment matured. The abundance of links obscures the eye so much that it completely knocks common sense out of the head ...

    The railway is the circulatory system of war. It is very expensive to move troops and, above all, equipment on the roads. Therefore, a banal simple railway line for only 24 hours means that hundreds of tons of ammunition and equipment will not be delivered to the front (in this particular case for the enemy). Indeed, on a single-track road there is not one train and not two per day.

    The simple railway track (Smolensk) mentioned in the article at 582 hours is 25 (!) DAYS. 25 days in November 1942 is "only" 1/6 of the duration of the battle for Stalingad. How much during this time is not taken out for the repair of equipment and unexploited shells and equipment - I leave it to think for ourselves. And look for that "straw" breaking the back of a camel on your own.

    The Panfilovites in 1941 had to detain the Germans "only" for 3 days in order to close the gap in the defense of Moscow.



    Did the guerrillas "overstate" the damage and did not talk about attacks on industrial facilities? Probably, they should have carried out an assessment of the damage in the control group together with the fascist command.

    - Hey, Fritz, let’s see how we screwed your tail here ...
    - Bad Sofetsky partisan !!! Go see how you spoil us well here.

    And industrial facilities behind enemy lines tend to become ENEMY industrial facilities. Can you imagine ?! - Here is such a nuisance.

    Do not hide behind numbers and pages: while you do not understand the economics and mathematics of war, not a single "work with documents" will convey to you an understanding of what a train with ammunition that did not come due to a guerrilla sortie near Rzhev.
  • vvu-globus
    vvu-globus 16 December 2020 19: 28
    +1
    I was born in Belarus in the city of Maryina Gorka (on German maps in this article it is). In my youth (60s and early 70s) there were still many living veterans. So I had to listen to THEIR stories, and not the stories of Epishev. My uncle lost his leg in a partisan unit. My countrywoman, Elena Mazanik, blew up the Gauleiter of Belarus von Kube, I was lucky to meet with Panteleimon Kondratyevich Ponamorenko (chief of staff of the partisan movement), with Lieutenant General Laskin, who personally took Paulus prisoner. I don't like the article of this author. I was brought up on other examples.
  • Zadneprovets
    Zadneprovets 16 December 2020 22: 59
    0
    Now the couch partisans know that partisans are very difficult and dangerous. And the partisans themselves and local residents ..
    And undermining the rail is a very risky venture. And ineffective from your point of view. However, ammunition and equipment not delivered on time saved more than one life.
    Do you not know that a rifle delivered to the position will kill our soldiers. And in another battle, ammunition not delivered on time led to unjustified losses of personnel and already occupied and equipped positions.
    For example, I know a veteran who, under enemy fire, delivered ammunition to guards mortars in a truck on time, for which he was awarded the medal "For Military Merit", about which there are copies of documents in the Book of Memory.
  • Gips
    Gips 17 December 2020 02: 19
    +1
    Another 30 years and the Soviet Union will lose the Great Patriotic War.
    And the partisans will be judged, apparently.

    Thank you, dear man, that you are such a Germanophile
    To slap you with a revolver.
    1. Igor Svir
      Igor Svir 2 February 2021 20: 31
      0
      why from a revolver ??? a bullet to spend on it - Drown in the sort, as one president of one insignificant COUNTRY said.
  • cotzp
    cotzp 17 December 2020 02: 21
    0
    I have been reading the resource for a long time. Credited content in general. But only now I decided to register.
    Only to express the author's indignation and complete indignation at this content.
    Absolutely inadmissible rhetoric, the essence of which is to question what happened during the Great Patriotic War.
    Inappropriate, at least. In general, it seems that "the Cossack was sent" and it is necessary to remove this g * vnoopus altogether.
    There is history, there is nothing to consider it in its own way, savoring right here "what fellow fascists are great, did not let the political instructors and partisans get off the ground", and even belittling the feat of these people along the way and kissing punctual punctuals from the fascist camp at the same time.
    1. wehr
      17 December 2020 10: 07
      -1
      Add more: and the archives are closed and classified forever. Why be ashamed?
      In the USSR, they did it: they closed it, banned it, removed it and condemned it. And then came the year 1991 and all these prohibitors and condemners together raced through the bushes.
      1. Odessa Greek
        Odessa Greek 17 December 2020 22: 28
        -1
        And in the USA, Britain and other Europe there are no closed archives of the WWII and Cold War times ??? Oh well
  • Foxmara
    Foxmara 17 December 2020 11: 07
    0
    If you believe all the German documents, it turns out that they shot down many more of our planes than they actually existed. The Germans are certainly pedants, but they also liked to lie. The material can be called interesting, if not for the prejudiced attitude of the author.
    Probably just such people and worked on the railway for the Germans?
    But what, after all, German propaganda claimed that it was fighting Bolshevism, not the Russians. It is not clear just where the 27 million killed came from, if only 11 of them were Red Army soldiers? However, the author will probably find an answer to this question too. With time.
    1. Alex Kent
      Alex Kent 17 December 2020 18: 49
      +1
      Regarding the German documents for counting downed aircraft, I will quote from the PARA BELLUM collection by Yuri Mukhin about the "exploits" of the greatest ass of all times and peoples Erich Hartmann:
      “On August 24, 1944, Hartmann flew in the morning to hunt and, having arrived, said that he had not 290, but 296 victories over the“ Ivan. ”He ate and flew again. the radio said 5 more victories, totaling 301. When he sat down, there were already flowers, flags, a garland around his neck at the airfield (as we met Stakhanov from the face), and the next morning the commander of JG-52 called him and said: " Congratulations! The Fuhrer awarded you with Diamonds. "And not the slightest hint that someone tried to check this story that he shot down 11 planes in one day and in two battles. And in the combat diary for August 24 in the column" Type " of the downed plane, the Airacobra stands alone.
  • Alex Kent
    Alex Kent 17 December 2020 18: 28
    0
    It would be necessary to give in comparison the "everyday" conditions of the fascist occupiers and partisans, and not only the losses and results of the partisan war.
    And for comparison, give German data on actions against the Red Army by German partisans in Germany. Al those were not? Why didn't the German people come out against the Russian "occupiers"?
  • Odessa Greek
    Odessa Greek 17 December 2020 22: 25
    -1
    Afftor's funny logic good So if there are contradictions in the reports, then the Soviets a priori lie, and the Third Reich cuts the truth to the uterus, it's funny ... Although, they are honest Europeans and simply cannot ascribe and lie in spirit ... well, the elven Aryan spirit in these wars of "light". But only wild and forcibly taken partisans into the woods could lie, get out, shit from around the corner to the "noble" German liberators !!!!!! Bravo Vertukhanov ... oh, sorry - Pan Verkhoturov. good
  • 7,62h54
    7,62h54 17 December 2020 23: 03
    +1
    The pseudo historian Dmitriev was also a skin, he was pulling an owl on a globe. As a result, he turned out to be an old pedophile.
    Was this article written by his follower?
  • Silvio
    Silvio 18 December 2020 08: 52
    0
    At the age of 12, my mother went to the obligatory work on cleaning the roadside zone of the Brest-Baranovichi tracks from small forests. Her daddy and my grandfather scored for these works because he had a misunderstanding with the German foreman of those works. The German did not sputter in Russian and therefore engaged in assault, giving my grandfather a slap in the face. After that, my grandfather gave up on compulsory work, but my grandmother, fearing the consequences of grandfather's sabotage, sent my mother, then a teenager, to those work.
  • Wildgoose
    Wildgoose 18 December 2020 18: 09
    0
    For whom the battlefield remains, they write reports based on their own considerations. For example, the girl was looking for her grandfather, she had the year of death in 1943 in the certificate, and she looked for the place where the battles took place in 1944, and in fact it was 1944.
    According to the Germans, the Germans basically did not pursue the partisans in the North no further than 5 km, the Finns 15 km. Finnish pursuit tactics, walk parallel to the tracks of the partisans 150 meters and wait until they get tired and attack at that moment.
    1. hjvtp1966
      hjvtp1966 20 December 2020 09: 27
      0
      Didn't the Finns themselves get tired or what?
      1. Wildgoose
        Wildgoose 21 December 2020 14: 04
        0
        They were too lazy, they drove off the partisans (border guards) and lie down, and the Finns are their land. We found 5 partisans near the German positions (stupidly from their direction), and neither the Germans, nor ours, nor the Finns have any documents. The killed partisans were piled up by the Germans and burned with their own thermite charges. A mess in the documents. Just at that time, volunteers came from Kandalaksha, 1 person matched the name and that's it
  • gangut
    gangut 19 December 2020 11: 03
    -2
    This is Che for Goebel's belch, What kind of creature belittles the struggle of the Soviet people ????? Do not print such nonsense figs, YouTube blocks transmissions against such propagandists at once. IMHO.
  • hjvtp1966
    hjvtp1966 20 December 2020 09: 25
    0
    Quote: Trilobite Master
    Quote: WayKhe Thuo
    I think so.

    Me too, in general. smile
    I will add only on my own behalf that a "patriotic" lie is no less dangerous than a Russophobic or anti-Soviet lie, call it what you want. In the USSR, they lied to us one thing, in Yeltsin's Russia - another, now the third is lying. The attack on history is being carried out on all fronts - from ancient times to modern times - and from several directions - ultrapatriotic, liberal-nihilistic, and several intermediate ones.
    History, as a science, these attacks do not bother with the word "absolutely" - in the scientific community some mad theories, such as, for example, about the statistic millions destroyed by Stalin in the GULAG or the Great Tartary of Fomenko, like the theory of "Flat Land", of course not pass. But this, in fact, is not required to successfully undermine the ideological base in the country. To load the information space of an ordinary man in the street with all sorts of radical pseudoscientific theories is a completely different matter. Their primitiveness, ease of understanding and a huge variety, so that everyone will find it to their liking, give pseudosciences a huge advantage over science itself, which is boring and trivial because it is too logical and consistent.
    Research such as this article is needed, and the author, of course, can be thanked for the attempt, I emphasize, the attempt to conduct an objective study of the issue raised, albeit a weak one, but an attempt.


    I-I-I! Judging by the number of cons, the overwhelming majority does not need the truth. Any attempt to understand objectively causes an outbreak of hatred and accusations of betrayal. Sad ...
  • Takashi
    Takashi 21 December 2020 15: 06
    0
    I read the book. The author researched the partisan movement. I don't remember the name - if anyone has read it, write.
    So, the author, quite seriously, based on the archives: there was a particularly large partisan movement (as they show in the films, there was not). And in some regions of the USSR, it did not even begin. There were scattered foci, which only by the middle of 1943 acquired combat-ready significance.
  • cotzp
    cotzp 22 December 2020 02: 44
    0
    Quote: hjvtp1966
    an attempt to understand objectively

    Let him train on the cats.
    There is nothing to touch the sacred.
    Got used to, tolerate the smoke
  • tolancop
    tolancop 23 December 2020 12: 49
    +1
    Another "rotten" on the VO. Well, yes, "the partisans all lied, but the Germans did not lie at all, the German recorded all the moves ..".
    And the inconsistency on the inconsistency. At least:
    "... But it went to another area, and after a few weeks it was overgrown with those who wanted to fight against the Germans, by persuasion or force they mobilized into detachments, acquired weapons and were ready to fight again ..."
    The author should decide what resulted in the replenishment of partisan detachments, otherwise "those who want to fight" and forced mobilization "somehow do not fit well. This is how the saying about cowards and a cross begs ...
    Of course, the achievements and successes of the partisans were often exaggerated. And this was fully justified, at least from a political point of view. But why is it proposed to take German data on faith. Just because the papers survived? So the paper endures everything, incl. and outright lies. And the Germans had plenty of reasons to lie and exaggerate their successes and downplay their partisan achievements.
  • kitten
    kitten 3 January 2021 11: 57
    +1
    Ya, Ya. A white German officer always writes prafda in papers. And Schweinen is partisan fsegda vryot. Who would have doubted that: the author -> the author -> the author is a bitch not finished ..
    1. Chack wessel
      Chack wessel 23 January 2021 06: 36
      0
      Yes, I did not see any special "strawberries" in the papers casting a shadow on the partisan movement. And the author has to pull the owl on the globe - the author himself writes that the throughput of railway roads has decreased by 2 times. But this is, like, unguarded.
  • Vanka Zhukov
    Vanka Zhukov 7 January 2021 20: 14
    0
    The goal of the author is interesting. He can dig up a lot, but is it necessary?
  • Dzafdet
    Dzafdet 16 January 2021 20: 26
    0
    It was necessary to stupidly destroy locomotives and locomotive brigades. There are no locomotives, no transportation ...
  • Chack wessel
    Chack wessel 23 January 2021 06: 32
    0
    Quote: "To the accompaniment of the gnashing teeth of fairy tale lovers from the political instructors of Comrade Epishev, let's see what German documents from the history of the partisan movement can give us."

    And another quote: "That is, the throughput of this line was cut by at least half of the attacks and sabotage of the partisans. This is exactly the line that started Operation Winter Forest, discussed in the previous article."

    Well, of course, Epishev was lying - you can start grinding your teeth. And the throughput of German roads decreased only by the Will of God ... The partisans had nothing to do with it.

    Quote: "That is, most of the partisans were recruited under duress and have little sympathy for the partisan movement. This conclusion was formed as a result of interrogations of captured partisans, as well as defectors from partisan detachments. The latter were few."

    ... If you look at the interrogations of German soldiers, then all (well, not all, but many) were communists and sympathizers. And, of course, they went to the USSR against their will ... But who then fought !?

    For the documentaries, it is kaneshna, thanks. But killing them was an unnecessary task. We'll figure it out ourselves. :)