Military Review

Leaky Fleet Umbrella

340
Leaky Fleet Umbrella



On December 10, 2020, the Department of Information and Mass Communications of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation (Konashenkov's Department) once again surprised us with its creativity on the next "successes" of our Navy.

10.12.2020 (16:45), officialdom of the RF Ministry of Defense (link to the MO website):

"Corvette" Thundering "in the course of state tests hit a target missile in the Baltic Sea ... Successfully carried out rocket and artillery fire at the target missile.

In accordance with the plan for the final stage of state tests of the "Gremyashchiy" corvette at the training ground located in the Baltic Sea, the ship's crew successfully fired missile and artillery fire with the Redut sea-based anti-aircraft missile system, AK-190 and AK-630 artillery mounts on the missile a target imitating an anti-ship cruise missile of a conventional enemy.

The target was an anti-ship cruise missile fired from a missile boat Baltic fleet P-257.

Anti-aircraft missiles launched from the corvette and heavy artillery fire successfully hit the designated target. The shooting was carried out in a difficult jamming environment with the use of electronic countermeasures by the "enemy".

The naval training ground of the Baltic Fleet, where the exercise took place, was closed to civilian shipping. Test rocket fire was provided by more than 10 ships and fleet support vessels participating in blocking the firing area and launching the target rocket.

Earlier, the ship's crew fired Kalibr and Onyx cruise missiles at coastal and sea targets in the White Sea. In the Barents Sea, he conducted artillery and torpedo firing.

Corvette "Thundering" is the lead ship of the project 20385. This is an improved version of the corvettes of the previous project 20380. The new corvette is distinguished from its predecessors by enhanced shock capabilities and an air defense system. "


Based on the content of this news report (I repeat - official from the Department of Information and Mass Communications of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation), the newest corvette of the Navy could not in any way "overcome" a single large-size air target that passed the zone of destruction of the "Redut" air defense system, then "hundreds" (gun mounts A -190), and only the AK-630-02 multi-barreled assault rifles finally "conquered" it.

It is worth figuring out what happened (or could have happened).

Facts and Comments



Corvette "Thundering" of the project 20385.


And now the comments and facts. Alas, very tough.

DIMK:

Corvette "Thundering" during state tests hit a target missile. In accordance with the plan for the final stage of state tests of the "Gremyashchiy" corvette at the training ground located in the Baltic Sea, the ship's crew successfully fired missile and artillery fire with the "Redut" sea-based anti-aircraft missile system, AK-190 and AK-630 artillery mounts on the missile - a target imitating an anti-ship cruise missile of a conventional enemy.


That is, according to the "officialdom" of the Ministry of Defense, the Redut air defense system (on target designation of the extremely expensive and supposedly "promising" radar integrated tower-mast complex (IBMK) "Zaslon") could not shoot down the target, the target missile (RM) successfully "arrived "Up to 30-mm" submachine guns "of the close line of the ship's air defense (that is, already in the" dead zone "of the air defense system).

Moreover, they could not bring down her excellent 100-mm gun mount. And this despite the fact that on tests of the corvette "Loud" this gun worked like this:

The A-190 cannon ... drove the target missile into the water at 7 km, before entering the AK-630 affected area.


Quoted from the words of a test participant, a Pacific Fleet officer.

But there was an excellent artillery radar "Puma", which was "thrown out" from the newest corvette of project 20385 (and the last 20380). Under the pretext that IBMK "Zaslon" supposedly "solves all problems."


Here, one cannot but note the fact of shooting at single target rocket.

Given the fact that on corvettes (including the "Thundering") there is no radio correction of the missiles, the target distribution of the missiles becomes virtually random. And here missed targets in a dense "shashlik" plaque are simply inevitable.

For comparison, an example from the 80s. on testing a normal and correct air defense system (cap. 1 rank Pechatnikov V.K):

The culmination of the test was a volley of four targets. If during the tests of the M-22 and S-300, for various reasons, multi-channel firing was repeated, then for the "Dagger" this was not necessary. Targets were launched from the coastal complex in the Balaklava area. To observe the shooting and provide insurance, the Black Sea Fleet brought 19 pennants onto the battlefield. The target range was 9,7 seconds. All these pennants were left without work because the MPK-147 coped with all the targets superbly.


The current "effective managers" (in uniform and without) are so afraid to shoot! Because they know how "embarrassment" it can end.

DIMK:

The target was an anti-ship cruise missile fired from a Baltic Fleet missile boat R-257.


The R-257 missile boat has a long-obsolete Termit missile system, whose huge rocket (P-15M or RM-15 target missile) in no way corresponds to real goals (neither in visibility, nor in flight altitude). And here we are not even talking about "promising air attack weapons", the RM-15 is not able to fully imitate even the "Harpoon" anti-ship missile system of the late 70s of the last century.


The Navy is simply afraid to shoot at its analogue IC-35 (RM-24). That was clearly shown by the 2016 shooting in the Black Sea Fleet. When the RM-24 was specially driven into the water, in fact, before entering the zone of destruction of anti-aircraft fire weapons of ships.

DIMK:

Anti-aircraft missiles launched from the corvette and heavy artillery fire successfully hit the designated target. The shooting was carried out in a difficult jamming environment with the use of electronic countermeasures by the "enemy".


The author declares with confidence that this statement has nothing to do with reality. And it's just a lie. The maximum that could be ꟷ "dipoles were poured." Just so that they are. And it was possible to "report" about the alleged use of electronic warfare means.

This is a very important question, especially given the extremely "slippery" factor of the impact of their electronic warfare means on the firing channels of anti-aircraft fire weapons. Taking into account the fact that this problem in the "valiant Navy" organizationally has a classic "Krylov organization" ("swan cancer and pike" - missilemen, RTS and REB members). To touch this topic deeply, to put it mildly, "is not recommended." (There will be no war? Perhaps there will be no).

DIMK:

Earlier, the ship's crew fired Kalibr and Onyx cruise missiles at coastal and sea targets in the White Sea. In the Barents Sea, he conducted artillery and torpedo firing.


Here Konashenkov's department "modestly forgot" to mention that the artillery fire in the north was at a simulated (!) Target. That is, there was no real target at all.

Thus, until now, "Thundering", despite repeated promises in the media (and postponements), could not shoot down anything before this shooting.

And now let's go over the issue in detail again.

Air defense problem


The topic of air defense of corvettes has already been raised at Voennoye Obozreniye. Examples include the following articles:

"Corvette 20386. Continuation of the scam" и "Corvettes that will go into battle."

These publications had significant resonance. Including among specialists. And a number of positive consequences. Alas, very insignificant. We'll have to re-enumerate the problems (not all) that the air defense systems of these new ships have.

1. The critical problem of the air defense of corvettes is the lack of radio correction of missiles.

Specialists and bosses were well aware of this problem since the mid-2000s. Nevertheless, nothing was done to solve it until the "valiant Navy" began to "lash in the media" for it. Today this deficiency can be eliminated in a short time. There are technical solutions for this. However, there are no organizational ones. Why change something, if you can again "cheat" on a single "tag" (RM-15)?

Moreover, there is good reason to believe that it was on the corvettes 20385 that nothing was done for radio correction. For the task was "simply" - somehow and quickly "shove" the ship to the fleet.

To direct questions to the representatives of "Zaslon", the answer to the radio correction of the missile defense system was (close to the text):

“We didn’t go through this, they didn’t ask us.”


Here, by the way, is an exhaustive answer to the “storytellers” that have appeared about the supposedly “newest super-air defense system IBMK Zaslon”. In the "development of budgetary funds" on this topic, the task of hitting missiles on a maneuvering target, in fact, was not set.

2. The excellent artillery radar "Puma" became the "crutch" for the air defense of the project 20380 corvettes. For example, during tests of the Pacific Fleet's head corvette, she drove the RM-15 into the water at a distance of 7 km.

This is a clear example of the fact that a number of radio-technical means exist and are serially produced, which simply and "on the vine" solve the whole complex of air defense problems of the corvette. They already exist, serial, effective ("Positive-M" + "Puma" + equipment for radio correction of missiles). And many times cheaper than the "golden" (but at the same time unable to control the missile defense system in the air) IBMK "Zaslon".

A logical question arises, why does the country need ships and navy? To keep her safe? Or as an opportunity for the "development of budgetary funds" by "reputable businessmen" (and at the expense of the country's defense capability)?

3. RM-15 ꟷ is in no way a "Harpoon" (and certainly not new anti-ship missiles). The fleet simply does not have effective targets.

Officer (cap. 1 rank) from the Feodosiya training ground at the Tsushima forum:

It is enough to look at the dimensions of the P-15M and "Harpoon" and everything is clear.

In addition, there was a nuance: RM was altered from combat (they turned off the "head", put, if required, a cargo model instead of a warhead, and devices for the self-destruction system with given flight parameters ꟷ ASL-1, -2), and combat, in turn, were divided on P-15M with radar seeker and TGSN.

For the "industry" and the SAM testers, this was of great importance, since in the radar seeker, even in the switched off form, the "dish" "the antenna in the fairing played the role of a significantly amplifying RCS of the radar-angle, and the thermal seeker did not give such an effect.

It is clear that the industry was extremely interested in the use of RM with radar seeker on tests to increase the reliability of detection at a given line and capture on the automatic tracking of the control system of the air defense missile system flying at heights of 5 м15 m RM-15M.

RM does not fly at a stable altitude for a variety of reasons and on the last 16 km of flight it "has the right" to be at the lower boundary in height - 5 m, and at the upper - 15 m, the average - 10 m. This is like "industry" is lucky.

We, by all means (starting with "our people" at the technical position of the RM preparation (Sevastopol, Karakopy) and ending with the commander of the firing RCA) tried to set the AP to a minimum height of 5 m, and the "industry", of course, fought for 15 m.



PKR P-15M with radar and thermal seeker.


Are there any solutions here? Certainly. And this has been clear since the 80s. Only the Navy did nothing to make them the standard means of its combat training ("there will be no war"?).

The fleet is afraid to shoot at targets even RM-24 (converted old anti-ship missiles "Uran"), because it fears a repetition of "Monsoon" (arrival on board of a heavy engine not shot down RM-24).

The Navy has nothing like the Chukar mass target of the US Navy, and most importantly, it is not necessary (for there is only one concern).

4. The unprincipled position of responsible officials and leaders towards the state of the air defense of ships and the fleet is obvious... It is not superfluous to remind here that one of the key officials personally responsible for all the air defense failures of project 20380 corvettes is the ex-Deputy General Director of the Almaz Central Design Bureau for armaments, Lysenko, who, after being fired from Almaz (after , that he has heaped up with the armament of new ships) "surfaced" in ... "Zaslon" (the developer of the IBMK). And here remains just put the link.

5. Without real tests, there will be no real revealing of problems and their elimination... This means that in a real war, our ships will be shot.

And here it is useless to talk about "new air defense systems" if the methods of their testing (and combat training) are deliberately flawed. Therefore, ships are surrendered by firing at "buckets of diesel fuel", ancient "tag" (or in general - parachute targets, as it was recently with the MRK "Odintsovo").


The new unobtrusive anti-ship missile system of the US Navy LRASSM.


6. IBMK "Zaslon".

The situation when a serial plant, without an experienced design bureau, a test base, "suddenly takes up" the development of a "super detection system", to put it mildly, raises questions. The normal answers to them, given the proper formulation of questions, could be the formation of an effective development team, a good poster base (namely good, honest, and not what is now on Ladoga). Of course, the point about the leaders of this work is extremely important.

However, in fact, among them are the former deputy. general for armaments of the Central Marine Design Bureau, personally responsible for the failure of the air defense of the corvettes of the Navy, and the ex-general director of the Amur shipyard (on which there are a lot of questions, including the "Nerpa case" - an accident with human casualties on the Nerpa submarine)

After that, the "price tag" of this radar complex ("soared" almost to the cost of the entire lead corvette of project 20380) no longer raises questions, as well as the "methodology" of testing, as well as the delivery of this "innovative radar" by "single tag".

So far there remains a "very interesting question": "What radars will be on the new ASZ corvettes?" For “certain persons” have a very strong desire for the “Zaronovskie” IBMKs to be there again. At the same time, I repeat: there is a ready-made, effective and many times cheaper solution ("Positive-M", "Puma", "Monolith" or "Mineral"). And no R&D is required for its implementation, all work can be completed in a few months (including the placement of means of radio correction of missiles) under a serial contract.

7. Perennial systemic problems The air defense of our ships, moreover, about which it was initially known, pose a very tough question for the responsible officials.

Tomorrow our ships will go into battle. And what course: to the position of the volley with our excellent percussion weapons on the enemy or "the shortest course to the ground" (to the bottom) ꟷ is decided today.

What we have with the air defense of ships (except for the frigate of project 22350) is not even a "leaky umbrella".

De facto there is no air defense. And practically any properly organized raid of air attack means (even a strike by an anti-ship missile system of the "Harpoon" level of the early 80s) will be fatal for almost any naval ship.


Burning Iranian missile frigate Is Sahand (F-74) after being hit by anti-ship missiles and UAB. 1988 year. Some results of the American operation "Praying Mantis" in the Persian Gulf. Our ships are waiting for the same.


Note. Clarified information - "Redoubt" on "Thundering" still shot down the target, and accordingly the artillery worked again at the simulated target. Some consider this a "success" of the IBMK.


Shooting video.

I disagree. The fact that air targets are shot down by air defense systems is not news from the late 50s. The question is in repelling real raids, but with this, the "Thundering" with the IBMK "Zaslon" (like all corvettes of the project 20380 and 20385) is doing very badly, and even without the use of electronic warfare by the enemy.

A very good question, how would the "Thundering" air defense system work with the simultaneous operation of the electronic warfare system for suppression? It is not difficult to conduct such an experiment. There is an Il-114 flying laboratory for testing "rocket heads" and ships. However, in the Navy, no one needs this - "there is only one concern." Yes, and extremely inconvenient facts of the "leakage" of our air defense "umbrella" can be revealed.

Our fleet does not want to hear about mass targets with characteristics (RCS, speed, flight altitude). Shooting at targets-simulators of supersonic anti-ship missiles - these are also Western fleets. About "Thursday exercises" (regular training of the British Navy on Thursdays by aircraft with electronic warfare equipment and simulators of the seeker of missiles), we also do not want to know.

An infantry regiment can at least bury itself in the ground from air strikes.

The ships (ours), with the way things are going now, are waiting

"The shortest course to the ground"


ꟷ to the bottom.

"Target shot down?" (large-sized and relatively high-flying "tag") ꟷ "Sign the ship's acceptance certificate"! "There will be no war" ... Perhaps "there will be no" ...
Author:
340 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. lopvlad
    lopvlad 12 December 2020 03: 55
    -13%
    Based on the content of this news report (I repeat - official from the Department of Information and Mass Communications of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation), the newest corvette of the Navy could not in any way "overcome" a single large-size air target that passed the zone of destruction of the "Redut" air defense system, then "hundreds" (gun mounts A -190), and only the AK-630-02 multi-barreled assault rifles finally "conquered" it.


    it is unnecessary to read between the lines and finish thinking. I think not many people know that during the tests of the datum, several air targets are always used and not one.
    1. timokhin-aa
      12 December 2020 06: 51
      +17
      this is the goal
      ONE

      and not at all low-altitude

      fluff, by the way shot on another board (see video) for a simulated target negative
      1. Sergei 777
        Sergei 777 12 December 2020 08: 25
        +13
        This is one of several goals. Ay, if the air defense missile system could not eliminate the target, then the corvette was not prepared to be commissioned. Do you remember how many sawmills for 22350? Until they finished it, no one thought to send it to sea.
        1. timokhin-aa
          12 December 2020 08: 55
          +18
          Now the situation has become somewhat worse, we now have absolute greatness, it is impossible to allow anyone to understand it, and therefore a ship with an almost incapacitated air defense system will be driven into the Navy.
          And not alone, Evmenov has already promised that this year Tsydenzhapov will be received, there is also the MF RLK and in another modification, while he has never fired at the exhibition center at all, and 20 days until the end of the year.
          1. Boris Chernikov
            Boris Chernikov 12 December 2020 14: 03
            +4
            well, while we can clearly say that Klimov does not know how to work with data even from open sources .. or he has lost all the grip of a "naval officer" that he cannot understand what he sees on the screen .. which is worse, decide for yourself
            1. timokhin-aa
              12 December 2020 14: 37
              -6
              that he cannot understand what he sees on the screen


              And can you? No.
              How then can you assert something like that for others?
              1. Boris Chernikov
                Boris Chernikov 12 December 2020 14: 43
                +4
                well, it seems like an adult uncle and trying to pretend to be a child .. you tell me that he still watched the video, but did not believe that there was a defeat for RM .. In fact, a claim can only be made to a journalist who wrote that RM was first hit with an anti-aircraft missile, because then an anti-aircraft machine gun .. and then .. this should have raised a question in the style of "what does it carry", and a desire to see a video .. about "why such an old target" .. well, because these are acceptance tests for the fleet, they pass according to pre-specified conditions. Tests for a "very inconspicuous RM and a massive raid" if they will be carried out, then later in the course of separate exercises organized by the fleet.
                1. timokhin-aa
                  12 December 2020 23: 24
                  +3
                  Tests for a "very inconspicuous RM and a massive raid" if they will be carried out, then later in the course of separate exercises organized by the fleet.


                  Surely! "If there will be ..." Directly a slip of the tongue according to Freud.
                  Remind me, when was the last time there were such tests? The number 1989 is spinning in my memory. What do you say?
                  1. Boris Chernikov
                    Boris Chernikov 13 December 2020 00: 14
                    -7
                    I have already said above ... and yes, it is a little strange from the "expert" to hear indignation about the composition of the GI ... and the indignation about "they had to be redone in relation to this ship is interesting ...
                  2. Boris Chernikov
                    Boris Chernikov 15 December 2020 21: 48
                    -3
                    laughing by the way ... about our old dispute with you .. about the "dagger that is not there" .. here on the news it was reported that the Dagger was identified in the Northern Fleet ..
                2. Ryusey
                  Ryusey 13 December 2020 18: 02
                  0
                  In fact, you could not object anything.
                3. The comment was deleted.
                4. Intruder
                  Intruder 15 December 2020 19: 52
                  +2
                  who wrote that RM was first struck with an anti-aircraft missile, therefore with a cannon, and then with an anti-aircraft machine gun .. and then .. this should have raised a question in the style of "what is he carrying?"
                  and then this "Termit" was blown away by a breeze, at the end at the very board .... the Russian media are such, gloomy geniuses :)
            2. The comment was deleted.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
          2. alexmach
            alexmach 12 December 2020 17: 30
            +20
            Alexander. We started the article with outright lies. Right in the title. Then a few pages of discussions about the fact that the artillery coped with the rocket after the air defense missile system missed it. That, as we can see, is also a lie. Well ended up criticizing the adequacy of the tests. So the tests are inadequate or the tests have failed? And in the other articles, the same amount of twitching?
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 12
              -2
              Quote: alexmach
              Alexander. We started the article with outright lies.

              my article
              LIAR here YOU
              on the air defense of the fleet to be continued - HUGE
              Quote: alexmach
              Then a few pages of discussions about the fact that the artillery coped with the missile after the air defense missile system missed it. That, as we see, is also a lie

              OF THE OFFICIAL STRUCTURE OF THE MINISTRY OF DEFENSE
              or YOU "rose-colored glasses" these FACTS interfere with seeing?
              Quote: alexmach
              So the tests are inadequate or the tests have failed?

              Yes
              INadequate
              FAILED
              despite the downing of RM
              Quote: alexmach
              And in the other articles, the same amount of twitching?

              bunny, you have lying jerks
              1. Boris Chernikov
                Boris Chernikov 14 December 2020 18: 18
                +1
                laughing so a lie is what? what is written in the article at the very beginning that the ship could not overcome and hit the target rocket .. so yes, the article starts with a lie .. interesting .. how many people need to point out your jamb so that you can directly write that screwed up?
              2. alexmach
                alexmach 14 December 2020 18: 51
                +2
                my article
                LIAR here YOU
                \
                I? Take the trouble to show you where.
                The article was published under the title "The Thundering Failed Redoubt Tests", this is a lie and you are a liar Maxim. Liar and inadequate. And I'm not your bunny.

                Adults admit their mistakes. And you are demonstrating the behavior of little offended boys.
                1. Fizik M
                  Fizik M 15 December 2020 03: 17
                  -2
                  Quote: alexmach
                  The article was published under the title "The Thundering Failed Redoubt Tests"

                  where and in what place?
                  it says in Russian "Leaky umbrella of the fleet"
                  Quote: alexmach
                  this is a lie and a liar you are Maxim. Liar and inadequate. And I'm not your bunny.

                  YOU ARE JUST BAD
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. The comment was deleted.
        2. lopvlad
          lopvlad 13 December 2020 01: 22
          +4
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          therefore, the Navy will drive a ship with an almost incapacitated air defense system.


          not a single warship will pass state tests with weapons that, according to your assurances, missed everything.
          1. Ryusey
            Ryusey 13 December 2020 18: 03
            -1
            Laughing however, laughing.
          2. AC130 Ganship
            AC130 Ganship 13 December 2020 19: 19
            -4
            Well, I didn’t miss it. Though closer than 4 km, I shot it down. Check the box ...
          3. Fizik M
            Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 13
            -2
            Quote: lopvlad
            not a single warship will pass state tests with weapons that, according to your assurances, missed everything.

            9km on target at 100m with RCS 1,3m?
            if it's not about * EP then what?
    2. Alexander Vorontsov
      Alexander Vorontsov 12 December 2020 17: 48
      +14
      That is, according to the "officialdom" of the Ministry of Defense, the Redut air defense system (on target designation of the extremely expensive and supposedly "promising" radar integrated tower-mast complex (IBMK) "Zaslon") could not shoot down the target, the target missile (RM) successfully "arrived "Up to 30-mm" submachine guns "of the close line of the ship's air defense (that is, already in the" dead zone "of the air defense system).

      The "screen-photo" given by you is taken from the video in which the missile hits the target.
      Those. the quoted moment of the author of the topic is incorrect.

      However, he is so "cleverly" formulated that it is plainly and not clear whether he refers to the officialdom as a reliable source of information or, on the contrary, uses this term in an ironic context.

      In any case, the bottom line - the missile was shot down.
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 15
        -3
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        Those. the quoted moment of the author of the topic is incorrect.

        do YOU ​​have a vision like?
        there was a QUOTE (DIRECT) DIMK - OFFICER OF THE ORGAN OF THE RF MOD
        further video comment
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        However, he is so "cleverly" formulated that it is plainly and not clear whether he refers to the officialdom as a reliable source of information or, on the contrary, uses this term in an ironic context.

        YOU understood everything perfectly
        don't pretend to be a rag
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        In any case, the bottom line - the missile was shot down.

        at 100 meters
        in 9 km
        and with EPR 1,3m
        "success" belay
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          Alexander Vorontsov 14 December 2020 19: 18
          +2
          Quote: Fizik M
          at 100 meters
          in 9 km
          and with EPR 1,3m
          "success"

          Yes. You did not understand?
          All the arguments in the article are, to put it mildly, none

          in 9 km

          How many kilometers should he have knocked her down if he could only see them at 20?
          At 50? He knocked her down in his area of ​​effect. I don’t know what causes your indignation.
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 15 December 2020 03: 14
            -4
            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            Yes. You did not understand?

            fool
            ARE YOU generally adequate?
            then YOU think it is acceptable this is the goal about which "Volna" worked successfully back in the late 60s
            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            How many kilometers should he have knocked her down if he could only see them at 20?

            Have you been banned from Google? advertising "Barrier" in the network is, and the range on EPR is there
            YOU are generally aware of what nonsense you are talking about?
            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            At 50? He knocked her down in his area of ​​effect. I don’t know what causes your indignation.

            he has DGZP MORE THAN FOUR TIMES MORE
            Thor, tied with tape to Grigorovich, despite a bunch of jambs, confidently worked on targets REALLY LOW-FLYING AND LOW-SPECIFIC AT TWO LONG RANGE
            at an ORDER less cost
            1. Alexander Vorontsov
              Alexander Vorontsov 15 December 2020 10: 05
              +5
              ARE YOU generally adequate?
              then YOU think it is acceptable this is the goal about which "Volna" worked successfully back in the late 60s

              Let's define the concepts.

              I don't know how you were taught, but I was taught that in order to obtain reliable (!) Data it is necessary to make a series of measurements.

              And for any technically competent person it is obvious that on the basis of 1 event, in particular 1 shot, it is impossible to draw any conclusions.
              Those. with this approach, you will not even defend laboratory work in the 9th grade in physics.
              A grandmother in the yard is not a question. She can draw any conclusions.

              Those. originally a fantasy genre theme.
              And the lack, or rather the complete absence of reliable data in the required amount, you compensate for by assumptions, lies and inappreciations. It turns out porridge from an ax.
              Water and salt soup.
              Have you been banned from Google? advertising "Barrier" in the network is, and the range on EPR is there
              YOU are generally aware of what nonsense you are talking about?

              Have you been banned from the radio horizon calculator?
              https://www.translatorscafe.com/unit-converter/ru-RU/calculator/radar-horizon/

              The ship station will only be able to see the missiles 20 km away.
              If the plane flies at an altitude of 3, the ship will be able to fire at it at a greater distance.
              But he will not see rockets that fly at low altitude further than + -20 km.

              Thor, tied with tape to Grigorovich, despite a bunch of jambs, confidently worked on targets REALLY LOW-FLYING AND LOW-SPECIFIC AT TWO LONG RANGE

              Is 8 km twice the long range?

              The target environment was created by two single targets. The first target was the 9F841M1 "Saman" air target simulator, made on the basis of the 9M33M SAM "Osa-MA" SAM. "Saman" imitated a simulated enemy plane. SAM "Tor-M2KM" reliably hit this target at an altitude of 1000 m at a distance of 8 km


              And the height is 1000.
              REALLY LOW FLUID

              What's wrong with you?

              he has DGZP MORE THAN FOUR TIMES MORE

              Yes, at least 100. What difference does it make if the limiting factor of a specific task is the insurmountable limitations of the radio horizon.
        2. Intruder
          Intruder 15 December 2020 19: 54
          +1
          at 100 meters
          in 9 km
          and with EPR 1,3m
          "success"
          yeah, it was 630 that sentenced her, in the end .... :) That is, the air defense missile system and the 190th did not cope, namely, the "mad metal cutter", in front of everyone (that is, behind everyone ..) contracted it!
  2. DrVintorez
    DrVintorez 12 December 2020 08: 26
    -8
    duck what "between the lines"? what they said, according to the data and conclusions.
    1. Mykhalych
      Mykhalych 12 December 2020 08: 46
      +1
      Quote: DrVintorez
      duck what "between the lines"? what they said, according to the data and conclusions.

      Well, yes, just deduce. Hence the panic and fear. (m \ f Hercules) - recommended for you.
  3. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. Imobile
        Imobile 12 December 2020 14: 17
        +2
        1. Problems identified.
        2. There are solutions.
        3. Everyone should control that the problem would start to be solved, actively exaggerate in all forums about the problem.
        4. Check that the problem is solved. Instead of slipping another excuse
        5 Identify new problems.
        If everyone does this, then combat readiness will get off the ground, and the generals will begin to stir. And if it were not for the corrupt journalists, then this question could be asked by the generals 40 times at each meeting, and it could also be asked to the Supreme Commander-in-Chief. Then they would definitely decide.
      2. The comment was deleted.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
  4. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 15 December 2020 03: 00
          +4
          Quote: Boris Chernikov
          the article was posted tonight, and the video on YouTube is more than a day

          Articles are being moderated for several days. And the author does not upload them.
      2. alexmach
        alexmach 12 December 2020 17: 33
        +4
        The article was written in the footsteps of the message on the MO website and before the video appeared

        Alexander, the video appeared yesterday - the article is today.
        1. timokhin-aa
          12 December 2020 23: 13
          -4
          It "appeared" not when the author uploaded it, but when the editor made it visible. They are not the same thing. The article can hang for a week on moderation in this case it was published after the message appeared on the MO website, but before the video, I had to make a clarification. And only then she "appeared".
          1. fomin
            fomin 13 December 2020 00: 41
            +7
            Decent people, in such cases, make the appropriate apology statements and delete the wrong material, and you dear one can be seen from the breed of people about whom there is a saying "at least they have nass in their eyes, they are all God's dew," Klimovsky bullshit and leave it on display. You and Maxim seem to be not small whistles, you need to be more impressive and smarter at your age, and be responsible for your market.
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 24
              -2
              Quote: fomin
              Decent people, in such cases, make the appropriate apology statements

              bunny (caught by the hand in plagiarism thieves), apologies FOR WHAT?
              can you explain?
              Quote: fomin
              "At least they have nass in their eyes, they are all God's dew",

              Monsieur Semen, aka Fomin, aka Kotikhin, aka Paravan, aka Druzhok
              before you tweet for your thieves with a direct distortion of other people's tests, answer
              Quote: fomin
              and be responsible for your bazaar.

              bunny, as you were a deceitful nonsense, unable to answer for the bazaar, so they remained
          2. Sanichsan
            Sanichsan 13 December 2020 23: 18
            +4
            the author is your colleague? all of you here about "ninja aircraft carriers" rushed to tell? cool! wassat
            By the way, where did the bots come from for 78 pluses of the article? just don't tell me about grateful readers here. look how many cons you have collected in attempts to smear the hack of your friend Klimov the blind can see that the advantages of the article are fake bully
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 26
              -5
              Quote: SanichSan
              By the way, where did the bots come from for 78 pluses of the article? just don't tell me about grateful readers here.

              bunny, no one will tell you anything
              except that the orderlies read a fairy tale when they walk around your 6th ward
              Quote: SanichSan
              smear the hack of his friend Klimov

              WHAT to "otmazyvat"?
              I have not seen and see no reason to "wrap up" the article for rework
              video comment wrote
              detailed analysis of it - in the next article
        2. Fizik M
          Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 21
          -1
          Quote: alexmach
          Alexander, the video appeared yesterday - the article is today.

          article posted by EDITOR
          the interval between placing in the workbench by the author and this placement can be up to a WEEK
          1. alexmach
            alexmach 14 December 2020 18: 59
            +2
            article posted by EDITOR
            the interval between placing in the workbench by the author and this placement can be up to a WEEK

            I didn't want to continue this conversation, but since you continue to insist ..

            The editor posts the article. But you somehow managed to stick the edit to the end of this article before it was posted. At the end, they added that “apparently got it”, they added the title, which contradicts the known facts, and left the fictions at the beginning of the article. What for? Wouldn't it have been better to remove the untrue article from publication and write a separate article about the adequacy of the tests carried out, or revise this one?

            We started with a lie, then there wasn’t enough reasoning or conscience to correct their own mistakes in time, and nevertheless they came with a proudly raised nose "bunnies" here to lay around everyone?
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 15 December 2020 03: 00
              -2
              Quote: alexmach
              At the end, then add that "apparently got it" was added, and the title contradicting the known facts,

              the title is absolutely correct
              with air defense of ships and the Navy of the priest
              full
              Quote: alexmach
              contrary to known facts,

              YOUR APPEARED "facts" wassat this is PORTRAIT of the level of "fumes"
              Quote: alexmach
              Wouldn't it have been better to remove the untrue article from publication and write a separate article about the adequacy of the tests carried out, or revise this one?

              i decided so
              the opinions of subjects like YOU do not interest me

              Quote: alexmach
              own mistakes

              YOU are not tired of screaming?
              do YOU ​​have something specific?
              1. alexmach
                alexmach 15 December 2020 10: 13
                +4
                YOU are not tired of screaming?

                Yes, squeal and hysteria here only you.
                I wrote everything specific above. You and Alexander can shout at black white as much as you want.
    2. Fizik M
      Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 17
      -3
      Quote: Boris Chernikov
      everything is trite, Klimov farted into a puddle-p

      bunny, it's you "chirping from the puddle" (yellow)
      Quote: Boris Chernikov
      and immediately thought of everything himself

      for those who are ON THE ARMORED TRAIN - these were COMMENTS OF THE OFFICIAL NEWS of the RF Ministry of Defense
      Quote: Boris Chernikov
      go to the same MO channel on youtube

      video appeared much later than news
      and I have enough to do not to "sit not on YouTube"
      1. Boris Chernikov
        Boris Chernikov 14 December 2020 18: 21
        -1
        but the gallant combat submariner did not get the idea that the public relations specialist ... had a little incorrectly stated the information and that "successfully hit the target with an anti-aircraft missile, then a 100 mm cannon, and then an anti-aircraft machine gun ... and successfully hit the same target missile ... sounds at least weird? " tongue
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 45
          -2
          Quote: Boris Chernikov
          the thought that the public relations specialist had not wandered into my head ... presented the information a little incorrectly

          bunny, I have an OFFICIAL answer of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation that DIMK carries its nonsense on the basis of "elaborated reports of specialized specialists" wassat
          Quote: Boris Chernikov
          "to successfully hit the target with an anti-aircraft missile, then a 100 mm cannon, and then an anti-aircraft machine gun .. and how to successfully hit the same target missile .. sounds at least strange?"

          bunny, it's strange that after SHAME and SCAM (a target of 1,3m EPR per 100m which was brought to almost 9 km to the ship (with D SAM about 40)) this "shuttle" is going to be accepted
          1. Boris Chernikov
            Boris Chernikov 14 December 2020 19: 17
            0
            shame and disgrace is to write misinformation that they could not shoot down the rocket, then put a whole article around this information that the ship's air defense is very bad, and then when you indicated that you wrote misinformation, start actively trying to accuse them all of lying and write that "I wrote a lie on Topvar, but even so it will do "... by chance you were flooded from the fleet for this, that you were filling out the documents at random?
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. Boris Chernikov
                Boris Chernikov 14 December 2020 19: 44
                +2
                but at the same time they successfully struck with the rest of the complexes? hmm ... and this is written to me by "a career soldier, an excellent student in military and political" ... by the way ... your rudeness does not help you in any way, from the word in general ... I just clarified that looking that you are missing such fat bloopers, that this raises questions to the fact that this was the reason for your problems with the service in the navy ... and what is the result? insults, insults ... you know that this kind of behavior is just makes you wonder what am I guessing? tongue
                1. The comment was deleted.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
  5. alkamun
    alkamun 14 December 2020 01: 24
    +5
    Damn, where did you get this from? How do you imagine it? One weapon, but several targets? What does target designation look like? Like, at least one hit and great? And the inspectors are all like "well, damn it got somewhere, then it works."
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 26
      +3
      Quote: alkamun
      And the inspectors are all like "well, damn it, it’s working somewhere."

      in fact, in this case it turned out that way
  • Aerodrome
    Aerodrome 12 December 2020 04: 05
    +6
    "Target shot down?" (large-sized and relatively high-flying "tag") ꟷ "Sign the ship's acceptance certificate"! "There will be no war" ... Perhaps "there will be no" ...
    mmmda ... it turns out "Potemkin village" and not a fleet, with such "means of protection" ... for what "parades" are!
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 12 December 2020 04: 55
      +8
      smile I sit in the place of the American admiral on some Zumwalt and read all this ... I plan how to arrange a new Tsushima for the Russian fleet, using all the Russian miscalculations described in the article ... a pleasant picture for the American fleet is emerging.
      1. Aerodrome
        Aerodrome 12 December 2020 05: 07
        +11
        every day, then "joy" .. then "zircon" is not zircon but - "onyx" ... then the ship's air defense "successfully" worked ... what is that. tomorrow it will become clear that the "vanguard" is "rearguard" .. something becomes scary. belay
        1. Lech from Android.
          Lech from Android. 12 December 2020 05: 48
          -11%
          We'll get out somehow ... not for the first time. smile
          1. NDR-791
            NDR-791 12 December 2020 06: 16
            +8
            We'll get out somehow ... not for the first time.
            As usual. When the fried bird bites, boom, stir ...
            1. Alexander Galaktionov
              Alexander Galaktionov 12 December 2020 06: 21
              +20
              Let's move what the main thing is that it would not be too late, otherwise it will be like the Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh
            2. Nikolaevich I
              Nikolaevich I 12 December 2020 08: 08
              +17
              Quote: NDR-791
              boom stir.

              And the time to "move" boom? Will the USA be so "nice"? what
              1. NDR-791
                NDR-791 12 December 2020 08: 19
                +10
                And we always have, like a good student, an emergency on the last night. Ekaterina also wrote to Potemkin - "We are again at war with the Turk, but we are not ready again" ... As sad as it sounds, however, you cannot erase the word from the song am
            3. Ryusey
              Ryusey 13 December 2020 18: 05
              -1
              This time, as if it were not too late.
          2. Vadim237
            Vadim237 12 December 2020 18: 13
            +1
            The End of the Ends - this is the whole Klimov.
            1. Ryusey
              Ryusey 13 December 2020 18: 06
              0
              All is well beautiful marquise ... that's all of you.
        2. lis-ik
          lis-ik 12 December 2020 10: 35
          +7
          Quote: Aerodrome
          every day, then "joy" .. then "zircon" is not zircon but - "onyx" ... then the ship's air defense "successfully" worked ... what is that. tomorrow it will become clear that the "vanguard" is "rearguard" .. something becomes scary. belay

          Most likely, things are really not very good in the defense industry, to put it mildly. The backlog of advice is over, there is no scientific school either, promising and knowledgeable designers, who left, who sank into summer. Only effective managers remained. I am afraid that when the current gang of crooks dumps home (west), the picture that will open will be catastrophic, probably the partners know this, and therefore they spit through their lips when they mention Russia.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. The comment was deleted.
          2. The comment was deleted.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. timokhin-aa
        12 December 2020 07: 10
        +2
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        arrange a new Tsushima for the Russian fleet, using all the mistakes of the Russians described in the article ..

        they learn about it not from articles
        and incl. tightly tracking polygons and gunfire
        see for example https://topwar.ru/173104-na-ostrie-podvodnogo-protivostojanija-holodnaja-vojna-podplava.html
        1. Lech from Android.
          Lech from Android. 12 December 2020 08: 21
          +8
          they learn about it not from articles

          Clear business ... smile different sources of information they use are proven and reliable and not from the media ... where everyone scribbles anything based on their wild imagination and the wishes of the customer.
          As a rule, our sofa brother is given an information product of third-rate freshness ... we chew and swallow nothing, sometimes with great appetite and inspiration. hi
        2. Revolver
          Revolver 12 December 2020 10: 54
          +3
          Stalin and Beria on these effectiveNo. there are no managers. And Putin is up to these of his predecessors as to China in a certain position.
          1. Sergey Valov
            Sergey Valov 12 December 2020 17: 56
            -4
            Stalin and Beria brought the country to 41 and retreated to Stalingrad. Find another example.
      3. Poganini
        Poganini 12 December 2020 10: 16
        -16%
        Don't sit on Zumwalt - you end up badly. ) He does NOT have any strike weapons on board at all. Any of our missile boats or MRKs will be happy to practice on this barge in complete safety from return fire.
        1. Intruder
          Intruder 15 December 2020 19: 59
          +1
          He does NOT have any strike weapons on board at all. Any of our missile boats or MRKs will be happy to practice on this barge in complete safety from return fire.
          or it will be used by the Aegis BIUS operators, from another ship and under a different flag .... :)
    2. Alexander Galaktionov
      Alexander Galaktionov 12 December 2020 06: 08
      +3
      If the air defense on the corvette pr 20385 or 20380 worked, then the modernized Vinogradov would have installed it and not Calm
      1. Boris Chernikov
        Boris Chernikov 12 December 2020 14: 10
        -2
        Have you already modernized Vinogradov? I hear something for the first time
    3. Boris Chernikov
      Boris Chernikov 12 December 2020 14: 48
      -6
      "high flying" .. is it at what altitude?
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 29
        0
        Quote: Boris Chernikov
        "high flying" .. is it at what altitude?

        did you teach trigonometry at your TsPSh?
        figures are all published
    4. Sanichsan
      Sanichsan 13 December 2020 23: 21
      -1
      Quote: Aerodrome
      mmmda ... it turns out "Potemkin village" and not a fleet, with such "means of protection" ... for what "parades" are!

      but maybe it turns out that the author does not know how to work with information and as a result is rudely lying from the first lines?
      read kamenty. article is nonsense. all systems worked properly for all goals... there were several of them wink
      1. The comment was deleted.
  • A_Lex
    A_Lex 12 December 2020 04: 52
    +33
    In the Russian Federation, the bourgeois system. Under the bourgeois system, representatives of big business hold power. Those. from the oligarchs. Any large financial project in the Russian Federation is somehow connected with specific private interests. A gas pipeline, a bridge, renovation, product labeling, guest workers, loans, toll roads - behind all this and many others there are always the private interests of specific people. The situation is similar with weapons. Therefore, when on one side of the scale is the benefit of a particular owner, who can make a profit by participating in the project, and on the other side of the scale - the effectiveness of the product obtained as part of the project, the profit invariably wins. Because the system is geared towards the enrichment of private owners and has no other goal and cannot have any. Therefore, one should not be surprised at this state of affairs. And yes, within the framework of globalization, the goal of which is to build an infrastructure for the smooth flow of capital from the colonies to the metropolis, the oligarchy of the countries of peripheral capitalism, i.e. third countries, of course, is not going to seriously fight the oligarchs of the first countries, i.e. those oligarchs in whose favor the Washington consensus system works.
    Shl. In the United States, there is also a bourgeois system and oligarchs rule there too, they just, unlike robbing other countries, so there weapons should be effective, since they are an instrument of robbery.
    1. Mykhalych
      Mykhalych 12 December 2020 07: 15
      -2
      Quote: A_Lex
      Any large financial project in the Russian Federation is somehow connected with specific private interests. A gas pipeline, a bridge, renovation, product labeling, guest workers, loans, toll roads - behind all this and many others there are always the private interests of specific people. The situation is similar with weapons. Therefore, when the benefit of a particular owner is on one side of the scale, who can make a profit by participating in the project, and on the other side of the scale, the efficiency of the product obtained as part of the project, the profit invariably wins

      Wait, why ... Or do you say that the defense service is private. Justify the claim ...
      1. Sergei 777
        Sergei 777 12 December 2020 08: 29
        -2
        What will he explain ?! Another "Chef is all gone." Here you do not expect arguments.
        1. timokhin-aa
          12 December 2020 08: 39
          +16
          To be fair, the Zaslon scam is the result of the desire to cut the state money on the part of the Turchakov family and their henchman Gorbunov, for whom the slammer has been crying for a long time.
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 32
            +2
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            the scam with the Barrier is the result of the desire to cut public money from the Turchakov family

            no Turchaks definitely had nothing to do with this
            this is purely Gorbunov's initiative
      2. cmax
        cmax 13 December 2020 12: 03
        -3
        Quote: Mykhalych
        Quote: A_Lex
        Any large financial project in the Russian Federation is somehow connected with specific private interests. A gas pipeline, a bridge, renovation, product labeling, guest workers, loans, toll roads - behind all this and many others there are always the private interests of specific people. The situation is similar with weapons. Therefore, when the benefit of a particular owner is on one side of the scale, who can make a profit by participating in the project, and on the other side of the scale, the efficiency of the product obtained as part of the project, the profit invariably wins

        Wait, why ... Or do you say that the defense service is private. Justify the claim ...

        What is there to justify, look at their dachas, the tops. "Work" in the sweat of their brow, and so of course the state structures. You know, the Russian Post was a state structure, this did not prevent the previous head from taking a loan from his own Post Bank for housing (center of Moscow, near Luzhniki), in the amount of one billion rubles (with a salary with a bonus of 600000 rubles).
    2. Boris Chernikov
      Boris Chernikov 12 December 2020 14: 11
      -5
      laughing oh yeah .. so they buy thermo mugs for 800 bucks apiece ..
    3. paul3390
      paul3390 12 December 2020 20: 09
      0
      In the United States, there is also a bourgeois system and oligarchs rule there too, they just, unlike robbing other countries, so there weapons should be effective, since they are an instrument of robbery.

      No - there is also a lot of outright junk and linden, but since they are much richer than our bourgeoisie, they are able to fill up with quantity where quality does not work out. Say - to hit the target you need to release not one but ten tomahawks? Yes, no question - at least one of them will fly .. Tank shit? Yes, not a problem - we will catch up with so many aviation that he will have no one to fight .. And so on ..

      The 14th rule of acquiring a Ferengi: Anything stolen is pure profit.
  • Sidor Amenpodestovich
    Sidor Amenpodestovich 12 December 2020 05: 34
    -18%
    If Damantsev's articles are unmistakably recognized by the abundance of abbreviations and digital ciphers, then Klimov's articles are unmistakably gloomy. For assessing Russian weapons, it has only two characteristics: "very bad" and "disaster."
    From beginning to end, well, such decay and hopelessness that it becomes funny.
    Directly charges in the morning with good mood.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. timokhin-aa
      12 December 2020 06: 53
      +2
      Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich
      From beginning to end, well, such decay and despair,

      apparently you are looking for this
      need a positive - read from Klimov, for example, about anti-torpedoes
      1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
        Sidor Amenpodestovich 12 December 2020 07: 04
        -1
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        need a positive - read from Klimov, for example, about anti-torpedoes

        A ray of light in the dark kingdom. Apparently so that the rest of the pitch horror was perceived even more contrast.
        1. timokhin-aa
          12 December 2020 07: 18
          +15
          Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich
          A ray of light in the dark kingdom. Apparently in order for the rest of the utter horror

          Sheer horror will be if "leave everything as it is."
          Until then, we have both opportunities and chances to change.
          But the first step towards this is understanding the problems and their severity and consequences.

          With the same air defense of the Navy and ships, the problems are absolutely not technical, but purely organizational.
          With a tough statement of the question in two years, 80% of these problems can be successfully solved
          1. Lech from Android.
            Lech from Android. 12 December 2020 08: 39
            +1
            But the first step towards this is understanding the problems and their severity and consequences.
            This realization is painfully long what ... a series of incidents with our only aircraft-carrying ship clearly showed this.
      2. Connor MacLeod
        Connor MacLeod 12 December 2020 07: 35
        +1
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        need a positive - read from Klimov, for example, about anti-torpedoes

        So everything is fine with anti-torpedoes? But with torpedoes everything is bad right?
        1. timokhin-aa
          12 December 2020 07: 41
          +7
          Quote: Connor Macleod
          So everything is fine with anti-torpedoes?

          IT WAS
          for example in 1998
          Quote: Connor Macleod
          But with torpedoes everything is bad right?

          but now with AT it is just as bad as with torpedoes
    3. 210ox
      210ox 12 December 2020 08: 13
      +21
      Do you need a bag of hats in the morning to throw at the enemies? A problem has been identified. And it would be good to resolve it as soon as possible. What's bad about it. And then, in fact, with the "robe-bearing urya" we will find ourselves in the new Tsushima.
      1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
        Sidor Amenpodestovich 12 December 2020 10: 02
        +3
        Do you need a bag of hats in the morning to throw at the enemies?

        I meant that Klimov's articles have the same unique and recognizable style as Damantsev's articles. The first has a bunch of technical terms, the second has a hopeless melancholy.
        That's all.
        How could one discern a desire to throw hats in this? Perhaps because I just really wanted to.
        It is boring when really complex, complex phenomena are emasculated to the state of dry leaves, and initially simple and understandable, it would seem, on the contrary, are complicated by houses of cards to the skies.
        1. Alexander Lysenko
          Alexander Lysenko 14 December 2020 17: 55
          +1
          And here the style ??? It's not clear at all. People reveal systemic problems, write, knock, but he doesn't like the style. Sit in your pink world and beyond.
          1. Xscorpion
            Xscorpion 16 December 2020 17: 48
            -2
            Quote: Alexander Lysenko
            And here the style ??? It's not clear at all. People reveal systemic problems, write, knock, but he doesn't like the style. Sit in your pink world and beyond.

            But what does the pink world have to do with it? If the author absolutely does not understand the issues, and he is as far from air defense as I am from ballet, at least he has no idea how air defense exercises are conducted, and secondly, he is absolutely not aware that they have been shooting Mosquitoes for a long time, and not Termites. And Mosquitoes, by the way, are much younger than the Harpoons. And the question of what target he should have hit the air defense systems, if the States even have Harpoons left at the moment, and the promising anti-ship missile system will reach operational readiness only by the 30th year.
      2. Poganini
        Poganini 12 December 2020 10: 24
        -16%
        No problem identified. It was revealed only that Mr. Gidromayor has a rich imagination.
        1. Alexander Lysenko
          Alexander Lysenko 14 December 2020 17: 57
          +2
          Bro, we don't have any problems at all. All the rules, live on in peace. Eat burgers, cola and get high.
          1. Poganini
            Poganini 14 December 2020 17: 59
            -2
            Problems - even eat with your mouth (as, indeed, everyone on this ball). Only not those about which the hydromayor writes.
        2. Fizik M
          Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 33
          +1
          Quote: Poganini
          It was revealed only that Mr. Gidromayor has a rich imagination.

          bunny, do you have vision HOW?
          of the video of the RF Ministry of Defense
          height - over 100m
          D 9 km
          EPR 1,3m
          By the way, where did the second missile defense system go?
          1. Intruder
            Intruder 15 December 2020 20: 01
            +1
            By the way, where did the second missile defense system go?
            "hard to find in a dark room, a black cat that isn't there ..." :)
      3. Sanichsan
        Sanichsan 13 December 2020 23: 29
        +1
        Quote: 210ox
        A problem has been identified.

        really revealed. the problem that the author is lying from the first lines request the initial message of the article that "they barely shot down 1 missile" is a lie, I don't know whether it was intentional or because of incompetence ...
        Quote: 210ox
        Do you need a bag of hats in the morning to throw at the enemies?

        and in the morning you need to be swept up in a panic and suffer how everything was stolen? OU. if so sorry, I will not interfere hi
        1. 210ox
          210ox 14 December 2020 14: 42
          +1
          No panic. We will not even have time to understand anything if a mess starts ... It's just interesting if our VIF will be able to oppose something at the decisive moment
          1. Sanichsan
            Sanichsan 16 December 2020 01: 11
            -1
            Quote: 210ox
            Just wondering if our VIF will be able to oppose something at a decisive moment

            well, judging by the test results, everything goals successfully struck, and they will definitely be able to do something, the question is whether this will be sufficient ... no country can guarantee absolute protection.
        2. Fizik M
          Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 34
          0
          Quote: SanichSan
          really revealed. the problem that the author is lying from the first stage

          bunny LIES here YOU
          Quote: SanichSan
          the original message of the article that "barely shot down 1 missile" is a lie

          this is the OFFICIOSIS of the RF Ministry of Defense
          about which DIRECTLY (literally quoted) and said in the article
          1. Sanichsan
            Sanichsan 16 December 2020 01: 07
            -1
            Quote: Fizik M
            about which DIRECTLY (literally quoted) and said in the article

            re-read what is written above. in addition to the article, there is a video on which they successfully hit multiple targets... well, let's say the author lazhanul and did not understand what the author of the MO article wanted to say, but after watching the video it is obvious that he screwed up? but the author did not correct anything or delete the article based on an obvious error, which means this is an intentional lie. request
    4. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 12 December 2020 08: 15
      +17
      Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich
      Straight charges in the morning with good mood

      And even better, the song "Everything is fine, beautiful marquise! And we are doing well ....." fellow
      1. Intruder
        Intruder 15 December 2020 20: 02
        +1
        hi like something like this ...
    5. Konnick
      Konnick 12 December 2020 09: 33
      +2
      Do not read, but listen and watch Konashenkov, a repeater of hearsay.
      1. Sidor Amenpodestovich
        Sidor Amenpodestovich 12 December 2020 10: 03
        +2
        Quote: Konnick
        Don't read,

        What are you reading? Well, except for VO, of course.
        What was the last book you read and when?
  • Alexander Galaktionov
    Alexander Galaktionov 12 December 2020 05: 48
    +13
    In general, the air defense on corvettes pr 20380 is not combat-ready here, not only Klimov says, but also on the forum the base And what is not a working air defense is taken for this it is necessary to plant
    1. Sanichsan
      Sanichsan 13 December 2020 23: 32
      -1
      Quote: Alexander Galaktionov
      In general, air defense on corvettes pr 20380 is not combat-ready here, not only Klimov says

      hmm .. that is, not only Klimov is lying? work as a team?
      1. The comment was deleted.
  • Alexander Galaktionov
    Alexander Galaktionov 12 December 2020 05: 52
    0
    It is clear why they want to install the air defense on Vinogradov here, or finish it as suggested by Klimov, or install Calm hi
  • Mykhalych
    Mykhalych 12 December 2020 05: 59
    -19%
    And then they are so wary of Russia, they are afraid in the WORLD ... request Everything with us is not like that, everything is not like that, as some people want ... Strange. One negative. But ODEs to the sworn "partners" are recklessly chanted in chorus.
    1. Alexander Galaktionov
      Alexander Galaktionov 12 December 2020 06: 13
      +9
      Beware of the fact that there is nuclear weapons, but as shown by our downed helicopter in Armenia, not all and then our warriors with them like Pu after the shooting down of the Su 24 all the rules Here I read Girkin - Strelkov, he definitely noticed that it was not the Ministry of Defense, but the Rosselkhoz fight for tomatoes
      1. Mykhalych
        Mykhalych 12 December 2020 07: 26
        -6
        Quote: Alexander Galaktionov
        Beware of the fact that there is nuclear weapons, but as shown by our downed helicopter in Armenia, not all and then our warriors with them like Pu after the shooting down of the Su 24 all the rules Here I read Girkin - Strelkov, he definitely noticed that it was not the Ministry of Defense, but the Rosselkhoz fight for tomatoes

        Read Girkin and beyond. He will teach you a lot. All the best. hi
        1. Alexander Galaktionov
          Alexander Galaktionov 12 December 2020 07: 31
          +3
          Well Girkin speaks a lot of sensible hi This is not Soloviev) When Girkin said he came to squeeze Akhmetov's business and he said something else, then even Olkhon spoke out in defense of Girkin
    2. Lex_is
      Lex_is 12 December 2020 07: 22
      +15
      Russia is so wary of, afraid in the WORLD

      They are very afraid, they directly write at night from fear. Either Sushka will be shot down, then a helicopter, or a ship under the Russian flag will be seized, then Tomogavks will shoot at the Russian allies.
      And so they, doing all these lewdness, become scared - just words cannot convey.
      1. Mykhalych
        Mykhalych 12 December 2020 07: 24
        -7
        Quote: Lex_is
        They are very afraid, they directly write at night from fear. Either Sushka will be shot down, then a helicopter, then a ship under the Russian flag will be captured, then Tomogavks will shoot at the Russian allies

        Not about that, but have what you have. hi
      2. Poganini
        Poganini 12 December 2020 10: 29
        -12%
        Exactly! Either they shoot at the bunker with the soldiers, or the seamen are brought to their knees! Oh, these are the Americans. Well # that's different.
        1. Lex_is
          Lex_is 12 December 2020 10: 45
          +5
          Yes.
          This is different.
          This is Iran, which has no nuclear weapons, not a particularly strong fleet, but the leadership has eggs.
          Which the United States calls its enemy, not "respected partners."
          Who do not "express deep concern" and "formidable silence" and snap back rocket attacks in response
          Who more than once, through their proxies, launched anti-ship missiles against US destroyers (unsuccessfully), sunk an anti-ship missile ship of the Saudi Arabian Navy (very successful).

          Only you then to Iran which side?
          Are you a hereditary Iranian?
          1. Poganini
            Poganini 12 December 2020 10: 57
            -10%
            Alexey, in the humanities? You don't know logic at all, no? It's not about Iran, it's about the United States. They are the only superpower like, why don't they bang on the presumptuous Iranians who dishonor the hegemon so much?
            1. Lex_is
              Lex_is 12 December 2020 11: 13
              +3
              Once again, for the alternatively gifted.
              Which side is this:
              Either they shoot at the bunker with the soldiers, or the seamen are brought to their knees!
              refers to Russia?
              1. Poganini
                Poganini 12 December 2020 15: 04
                -6
                What a tight one you got! However, among the patriotic sentries, this is more a pattern than an exception.
                “They are very afraid, they write straight at night out of fear. Either Sushka will be shot down, then a helicopter, or a ship under the Russian flag will be seized, or Tomogavki will shoot at the Russian allies.
                And so, doing all this indecency, it becomes scary - just words cannot be conveyed. "- your words? It follows from them that no one is afraid of Russia. I gave you an example that in the same way, no one is afraid of a" superpower. " just take and bang “and the whole world to dust.” Or at least Georgia or Turkey there. Or Iran and Afghanistan. Has it come down now?
                1. Lex_is
                  Lex_is 12 December 2020 18: 12
                  +2
                  Are you talking now with voices in your head?

                  Where did I even write a word about the fact that someone is afraid or not afraid of some kind of superpower or about "banging in dust"?
    3. victor50
      victor50 12 December 2020 13: 08
      +2
      Quote: Mykhalych
      And then they are so wary of Russia, they are afraid in the WORLD ...

      This is only on a few TV channels lol
    4. 210ox
      210ox 12 December 2020 13: 32
      -1
      The Russian Empire and the Soviet Union were also feared in the world. This led the empire to a catastrophe in the Russo-Japanese war, and the USSR to heavy defeats of the Navy in the Great Patriotic War.
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 12 December 2020 18: 24
        -6
        Only Israel put on the requests of the USSR when there was an Arab Israeli war.
        1. Intruder
          Intruder 15 December 2020 20: 04
          0
          and now he successfully "lays down" in the entire Middle East .... until now, he simply cannot see the problems of the "Indians", and they, as you know, "do not bother" the sheriff, from the word - at all!
  • tlauicol
    tlauicol 12 December 2020 06: 05
    +6
    shooting in 2016 in the Black Sea Fleet. When the RM-24 was specially driven into the water, in fact, before entering the zone of destruction of anti-aircraft fire weapons of ships

    Maxim? what information?
    1. timokhin-aa
      12 December 2020 06: 48
      +10
      I will answer for him (he is banned until December 14)
      on IMDS-19 there was an official event on air defense of ships with a lot of details on firing and swearing between KBP and IEMZ right on it
  • Alexander Galaktionov
    Alexander Galaktionov 12 December 2020 06: 35
    +3
    What will Andrei from Chelyabinsk answer to Klimov's article? By the way, Andrei from Chelyabinsk, he seemed to want to write an article on Vinogradov's modernization?
  • Alexander Galaktionov
    Alexander Galaktionov 12 December 2020 06: 39
    -2
    A military-related website, and there are few articles (maybe at least someone will put the video in the Gray Zone and discuss there is something to discuss hi
  • Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 12 December 2020 06: 57
    -1
    Well, here's another frustration.
    You can't do that, right in the morning, the truth-womb.
    1. Poganini
      Poganini 12 December 2020 10: 30
      -10%
      Stop taking Klimov's fantasies for the truth and you will be less upset. )
      1. timokhin-aa
        12 December 2020 14: 21
        +5
        And you write how it really is, let the people rejoice.
      2. Fizik M
        Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 36
        +3
        Quote: Poganini
        Stop Klimov fantasies

        bunny you wipe the monitor from the secretions, and you will see the official video of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation
    2. Intruder
      Intruder 15 December 2020 20: 07
      0
      you can't do that, right in the morning ...

  • Bashkirkhan
    Bashkirkhan 12 December 2020 06: 59
    +4
    By the way, the P-15 "Termit" in Libya is used by local natives trying to use it. Anti-ship missiles got them from the Libyan fleet.
    1. Alexander Galaktionov
      Alexander Galaktionov 12 December 2020 07: 20
      -2
      They do not need P -15, but an economy based on Kamaz Ball
  • timokhin-aa
    12 December 2020 07: 02
    +18
    the crew of the "Thundering" during the shooting demonstrates "confidence in their own weapons" belay
    screen with official video of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation
    1. Bashkirkhan
      Bashkirkhan 12 December 2020 07: 11
      +8
      Well, after all, it is not the V-2 that is being shot down, but the relict Soviet wunderwaffe P-15 "Termite".
    2. Alexander Galaktionov
      Alexander Galaktionov 12 December 2020 07: 16
      +5
      Confidence) what kind of air defense is this facial expression, Cap 3 rank sad shocked Cap 3 ranks thinks don't put it better Calm
      1. timokhin-aa
        12 December 2020 07: 25
        +5
        Quote: Alexander Galaktionov
        don't put it better Calm

        no longer relevant
        9M96 works, and very well
        you just need radio correction (and there is such equipment, moreover, compact, the question is in the decision on its installation on ships)
        1. Alexander Galaktionov
          Alexander Galaktionov 12 December 2020 07: 36
          +2
          Again, the timing will be shifted Here they built pr 11356 for the Black Sea Fleet, I looked, well, why they did not put the GAS on the Corvette pr 20380 with the Package
          1. timokhin-aa
            12 December 2020 07: 43
            +1
            Quote: Alexander Galaktionov
            built pr 11356 for the Black Sea Fleet, looked well, why did not they put the GAS on the Corvette pr 20380 with the Package

            Klimov wrote that GAS "Platina-M" 11356 provides control center for AT without special GAS "Package-A"
            1. Alexander Galaktionov
              Alexander Galaktionov 12 December 2020 07: 46
              -1
              I'm talking about Zarya and towed
        2. Alexander Galaktionov
          Alexander Galaktionov 12 December 2020 07: 38
          -1
          And what about Pantsir ME, how was it accepted and what are the results?
          1. timokhin-aa
            12 December 2020 07: 44
            +4
            Quote: Alexander Galaktionov
            And what about Pantsir ME, how was it accepted and what are the results?

            adopted by parachute targets that in general trash is complete
            but he has at least a large statistics of work on "harpoon-like" targets since the days of "Kortik" in the 80s
            1. Alexander Galaktionov
              Alexander Galaktionov 12 December 2020 07: 51
              -2
              Will we be interested in long-range air defense like the SM -6 in the air defense of the Navy?
        3. NDR-791
          NDR-791 12 December 2020 08: 30
          -1
          question in the decision on its installation on ships
          And so it turns out - the role of personality in history. Until the Minister of Defense barks, they will chew snot with decisions. Here Taburetkin did not bark and everything was staked. Now only "manual control". No SYSTEM !!! implementation. And whoever is lower and the smoke is thinner, he holds on to the chair and refuses to make decisions
          1. timokhin-aa
            12 December 2020 08: 41
            +4
            About our system - here - https://topwar.ru/177763-nashi-vojny-pentagona-realii-nashih-voennyh-niokr.html
      2. timokhin-aa
        12 December 2020 14: 42
        0
        Not cap-3, but a lieutenant-captain as old as cap-2 or 1

        The video, in general, turned out very strange.
    3. Alexander Galaktionov
      Alexander Galaktionov 12 December 2020 07: 43
      -1
      By the way, how much did Thundering gain weight with vinegar? Read from 150 to 300t displacement
    4. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 12 December 2020 11: 24
      +3

      What was it ?
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 12 December 2020 12: 52
        +3
        I heard a story from the Soviet era:
        Northern Fleet exercises. On "Peter the Great" - an admiral from Leningrad.
        They report to him: "The nuclear submarine is launching a torpedo at the target." Long pause ..
        Admiral: "Target hit?"
        Hitch. Finally, someone decides: "No way, Comrade Admiral, a mistake."
        Admiral: "where's the torpedo?"
        The officers whisper with concern ...
        Finally: "unknown, clarifying ..."
        Admiral: "Urgent descent to my boat !!!"
        And dumps in 5 minutes. laughing
        1. Lex_is
          Lex_is 12 December 2020 13: 01
          0
          Apparently this is a naval variation of an army bike: laughing
          And then the officer-informant announced: "And now attack aircraft will strike at the conditional enemy!" The general wakes up instantly, pushes his way to the map and asks the question:
          - Where, sonny?
          The informant shows on the map.
          - when?
          - Yes, two minutes later, already took off ...
          Here the general takes off his cap and, groaning, climbs under a nearby armored personnel carrier. Everyone politely averts their eyes, they say, in old age, my grandfather went crazy.
          And then stormtroopers swoop in. A series of explosions, smoke, engines roar. When the smoke clears, the whole group is densely covered with spring mud. Swearing inventively, the generals begin to clean up their uniforms with slivers, and then an absolutely clean old man crawls out from under the armored personnel carrier, puts on a cap and with a Suvorov
          sly says: "I remember these ehany stormtroopers from the war!
          when they hit the target for sure !! "
        2. Ivanchester
          Ivanchester 12 December 2020 18: 23
          +1
          “Petr” entered the fleet in the second half of the 90s.
          So either a bike not of the Soviet period, or another ship wink
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 12 December 2020 19: 08
            0
            Bike - 70s-80s.
            So the flagship is different.
        3. aszzz888
          aszzz888 13 December 2020 11: 52
          -2

          voyaka uh (Alexey)
          Yesterday, 12: 52

          +1
          I heard a story from the Soviet era:
          Northern Fleet exercises. On "Peter the Great" - an admiral from Leningrad.
          But I heard something completely different: on July 2006, 16, on July 802, Hezbollah fighters fired a C-4 anti-ship missile into the Hanit Jewish corvette, which took part in the Israeli blockade of Lebanese ports, and when it flew, the Jewish chief managed to jump into the boat. .. True, I did not have time to sail far. In addition to him, XNUMX more on the Hanita were scattered to pieces. The ship itself wassat out of order.
          laughing
      2. Alexander Lysenko
        Alexander Lysenko 14 December 2020 18: 26
        0
        Flies to Maryata
    5. alexmach
      alexmach 12 December 2020 17: 38
      +5
      the crew of the "Thundering" during the shooting demonstrates "confidence in their own weapons" belay
      screen with official video of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

      Not ashamed? People are actually at work.
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 37
        +1
        Quote: alexmach
        Not ashamed? People are actually at work.

        no, not ashamed
        "facts on the face"
        unlike YOUR lies
        1. alexmach
          alexmach 14 December 2020 19: 04
          +1
          This is certainly a worthy argument, you won’t say anything.
          We have not seen either your noble face, or the face of the sparkling joker Alexander.
          unlike YOUR lies

          Well, show me where I agreed. I ask for a second time.
          1. Fizik M
            Fizik M 15 December 2020 02: 39
            -1
            Quote: alexmach
            Well, show me where I agreed.

            https://topwar.ru/178009-dyrjavyj-zontik-flota.html#comment-id-11054121
            1. alexmach
              alexmach 15 December 2020 10: 11
              0
              There every word is true
    6. Intruder
      Intruder 15 December 2020 20: 09
      0
      maybe easier:
  • The comment was deleted.
    1. timokhin-aa
      12 December 2020 08: 51
      +6
      Why is it so storming you? Is it more correct to hand over unfit for combat ships to the fleet?
  • oracul
    oracul 12 December 2020 07: 15
    -17%
    What is the purpose of this kind of publication? To inform NATO partners about the state of the naval air defense, to dismiss the command staff of the navy and, at the same time, the Ministry of Defense, to question the development of the design bureau, or to express their concerns? For the latter, the addressee was chosen incorrectly, too much detail.
    1. Alexander Galaktionov
      Alexander Galaktionov 12 December 2020 07: 26
      +6
      Report that you need air defense norms and not one that does not work
    2. timokhin-aa
      12 December 2020 07: 28
      +7
      Quote: oracul
      too much detail.

      Not enough.
      Details are in the official video from the RF Ministry of Defense (DIMK).
      Figs knows, maybe they send him straight to Langley? repeat
    3. Lex_is
      Lex_is 12 December 2020 07: 53
      +19
      Inform NATO partners about the state of the air defense of the Navy


      Well yes. NATO intelligence did not even know about the state of the air defense of the fleet, and Klimov took them and told them everything.
      If it had not been for Klimov and Timokhin, these intelligence services would never have guessed about the state of our Navy, they have only one source of information - articles on VO.
      1. Hagen
        Hagen 12 December 2020 10: 40
        -11%
        Quote: Lex_is
        NATO intelligence did not even know about the state of the air defense of the fleet, but Klimov took them and told them everything.

        Maybe they will open their eyes to the fleet to the Supreme Commander-in-Chief? There is a possibility. If they don't ask this question about the state of the fleet, then they are hanging noodles for us here. If you are such advanced truth-tellers, go to the end (if the truth is yours).
        1. victor50
          victor50 12 December 2020 13: 22
          +7
          Quote: Hagen
          If they don't ask this question about the state of the fleet, then they are hanging noodles for us here.

          Well yes. True, with Kiselev, Solovyov and Konashenkov - "the whole world is in dust", pleasant!
          They (Timokhin and Klimov) are trying by all possible means to bring the real situation to those who have the opportunity and MUST change it. And for some reason this does not suit you. Apparently the rigidity of the picture is not suitable. Not used to this? Does the brain not want to accept? And what is happening around in general - also only through rose-colored glasses?
          1. Hagen
            Hagen 12 December 2020 14: 46
            -4
            Quote: victor50
            And for some reason this does not suit you.

            I am not satisfied with the level at which this truth comes to light. If what is written here is true, then it should be presented at the same level as Soloviev and Konashenkov. Otherwise, there is no competition between two points of view. I would be more satisfied that the decision-making level of power knew all points of view and could present the most appropriate to the realities, or the way out of the current deadlock.
            Quote: victor50
            They (Timokhin and Klimov) are trying by all possible means to bring the real situation to those who have the opportunity and MUST change it.

            This is exactly what I suggest. So far, I hear / see about them only on the VO pages. And this is not at all "all possible means of bringing ..." That's right, smoking room at the entrance. And the level of reasoning in the smoking-room does not suit me. Do you, Victor, consider this level sufficient?
            1. victor50
              victor50 12 December 2020 17: 41
              +4
              Quote: Hagen
              it should be presented at the same level as Soloviev and Konashenkov.

              Do you think this is possible with the modern propaganda on TV, in general, in the media? lol
              Quote: Hagen
              That's right, smoking room at the entrance. And the level of reasoning in the smoking-room does not suit me. Do you, Victor, consider this level sufficient?

              I consider it an acceptable and necessary way to voice opinions that do not correspond to the official ones, in the absence of other opportunities.
              1. Hagen
                Hagen 12 December 2020 18: 14
                -4
                Quote: victor50
                I consider it an acceptable and necessary way to voice opinions that do not correspond to the official ones, in the absence of other opportunities.

                And what can this method change? Who hears him? A bunch of retirees who don't influence anything? Have you heard from someone that someone somewhere discussed what is written in VO? I personally have not heard this anywhere. But there is a "straight line" to the Supreme himself. Why not try and point out the problem? Especially if you are a specialist and are confident that you are right. This is not a joke question - the whole fleet of the state, on which a huge heap of money is spent and on which the hope is pinned, turns out to be worthless !!! Hence, one must fight for it.
                1. victor50
                  victor50 12 December 2020 18: 50
                  +7
                  Quote: Hagen
                  But there is a "straight line" to the Supreme himself. Why not try and identify the problem?

                  Do you seriously believe this? Do you think such questions will be shown to him? And he will answer ?! Live?! laughing It's easier for you not to read anything here. And there will be no problem. laughing
                  1. Hagen
                    Hagen 12 December 2020 19: 13
                    -3
                    Quote: victor50
                    Do you think such questions will be shown to him?

                    I believe that we should try to do at least something, especially since there are no obstacles. And there it will be visible ... And you, as I see, have already set up a fence for yourself, assuming that the question will be ignored.
                    Quote: victor50
                    It's easier for you not to read anything here. And there will be no problem.

                    It may be simpler, but I'm not looking for easy ways, but ways of solving what interests me. Something turns out, something is not very good. But in principle, I have no problems, as such ... And for you, I see, it's easier to giggle and do nothing, and suddenly it won't work ...laughing Everyone lives the way they want wink
                    1. victor50
                      victor50 12 December 2020 20: 04
                      +4
                      Quote: Hagen
                      I believe that we should try to do at least something, especially since there are no obstacles. And there it will be visible ... And you, as I see, have already set up a fence for yourself, assuming that the question will be ignored.

                      They are trying. And you are not happy that they are trying. Better to let there be only "the whole world in dust" and "unparalleled." And the holy faith that there are the best, the smartest and all who know. We either ignore the facts that contradict this conviction, or declare them untenable, and those who present them as amateurs writing for a "handful of pensioners." As for me, being younger and more naive, I tried to act in the way you recommended. What else can I say? He was naive! laughing
                      1. Hagen
                        Hagen 12 December 2020 21: 23
                        -4
                        Quote: victor50
                        They are trying. And you are not happy that they are trying.

                        And what are they trying? Write on toilet paper that won't change anything. You personally, having learned that everything is bad, how will you influence the situation? No way. And I can't. And all the others on the VO - nothing. At the same time, I am not expressing dissatisfaction, as you groundlessly assert, I propose to go in another direction, which does not require anything but a little action - to take and concisely lay out the problem. I know people who have written. Yes, Putin did not personally answer, but they came from the district government and asked about the essence of the appeal. They react there, no matter how funny it is ... I don't believe in it, I know it.
                        Quote: victor50
                        And the holy faith that there are the best, the smartest and all who know.

                        Maybe not the smartest. But life shows that theorists who themselves do not do what they say are definitely not the smartest. Therefore, as in those I have no "holy faith", so in these - even more so. Do you think that the authors of the article are the owners of the ultimate truth? Count it. Your right. I have no such faith in them. And I also have the right to do so.
                      2. victor50
                        victor50 13 December 2020 01: 53
                        +2
                        Quote: Hagen
                        And what are they trying? Write on toilet paper that won't change anything. You personally, having learned that everything is bad, how will you influence the situation? No way. And I can't. And all the others on the VO - nothing. At the same time, I do not express dissatisfaction, as you groundlessly assert, I propose to go in another direction, which does not require anything but a small action - to take and concisely lay out the problem. I know people who have written.

                        About toilet paper - not dissatisfaction? Very ... unpleasant. If you know what to do, you would take the guys by the handle and take them where necessary, explaining what is necessary. If you doubt their professionalism, then there is no need to doubt their honesty and patriotic intentions. So help them! Explain where to write, and how, how briefly. You are trying, without knowing them at all, to humiliate them, to offend them, together with the site - "the refuge of a group of pensioners" writing "on toilet paper"! You are indignant with the site and ... stay here. Or are you only dissatisfied with Timokhin and Klimov? Are they destroying your rosy picture of the world?
                      3. Hagen
                        Hagen 13 December 2020 08: 08
                        -3
                        Quote: victor50
                        About toilet paper - not dissatisfaction?

                        With imaginative thinking, you see, not very ... Toilet paper is given as a measure of the degree of impact of an article and resource on the problem under discussion. And what's wrong with that? Maybe one of the commentators said that he "heard and will take action"? I have not seen this.
                        Quote: victor50
                        You are trying, not knowing them at all, to humiliate them, to offend them, together with the site - "the refuge of a group of pensioners" writing "on toilet paper"!

                        I really don’t know the authors, but I see what they write, I see where they write, I see that they don’t respond to offers to read those books that they wrote and for which they received reviews from the professional community (out of unwillingness to communicate or lack of such - I do not know). Some conclusions can be drawn from this. I will only note that you cannot humiliate and insult with the truth. Expressing doubts about their professionalism, which they do not seek to confirm, is not humiliation or insult.
                        Quote: victor50
                        If you know what to do, you would take the guys by the handle and take them where necessary, explaining what is necessary. If you doubt their professionalism, then there is no need to doubt their honesty and patriotic intentions. So help them!

                        I have already said this in plain text, where you can turn. How? From each iron today they broadcast - "citizens, if you have unresolved questions, problems, doubts, your vision of their solution, PLEASE CONTACT. Addresses ......." What language should you translate what was said? After all, you yourself do not strive to offer anything, you only have questions about color perception and memories that once (obviously, for a long time) you were still able to do something, but today the potency is not the same, "wiser" ... Or maybe just laziness? Do not be offended, you cannot be offended at the truth, I personally have no complaints about you. You have the right to express your opinion. But I also have this right ...
                      4. victor50
                        victor50 13 December 2020 23: 50
                        -1
                        Quote: Hagen
                        After all, you yourself do not strive to offer anything, you only have questions about color perception and memories that once (obviously, for a long time) you were still able to do something, but today the potency is not the same, "wiser" ... Or maybe just laziness?

                        Would you like to share your exploits? Tell us how and what you do, besides criticism (and you can’t call it criticism, so, to submit a voice in defense of the existing state of affairs, with an eye, suddenly, who will notice, appreciate, or for a fee?) Contradicting the world order invented by you. Do not be offended, I have the right to express my opinion about you? wink Not with such daring, however, as you dignify others here ... We would go from this resource and ... offer and do great things. Otherwise, sit in this shelter of "a handful of retirees" and water it. The grenades, you see, are of the wrong caliber ... Is the work really like that? : request

                        Quote: Hagen
                        You seem to be not very imaginative in thinking ... Toilet paper is given as a yardstick

                        I understood that, but you did not understand what I understood. laughing What imagery you have! Heights! An unattainable ideal! laughing Well - beat yourself in the chest, Your Perfection!
                      5. Hagen
                        Hagen 14 December 2020 06: 41
                        0
                        Quote: victor50
                        Would you like to share your exploits?

                        Naive question! After all, whatever I say here, you still cannot check. What's the point of asking it? Therefore, I will not share my exploits. But tell me why you didn't have a similar question for the author? After all, he, no more, no less, pulled on the mantle of a judge and broadcasts on a public resource that he saw what people receiving education could not see money. Isn't it really interesting how this journalist deeply understands both the tactics and weapons of the fleet, and the intricacies of rocketry and air defense, and even in the matter of planning nuclear weapons and their use, he surpassed everyone in general and our General Staff and the Pentagon? This is usually called megalomania. But in that direction you have no questions, apparently?
                        Quote: victor50
                        Do not be offended, I have the right to express my opinion about you?

                        They get offended when in return they receive something that is at odds with the positive expectation. And I knew what I was saying and what would come in response. What grudge?
                        Quote: victor50
                        Otherwise, sit in this shelter of "a handful of retirees" and water it.

                        Yes, I'm sitting. Sometimes pensioners have free minutes, why not read the pearls of novice journalists. Maybe someday they will become experienced .... Are you surprised that most of the articles on the resource are written in a clearly anti-government spirit? Did our generals really deserve at least some kind word? Somehow, with an effort of will, read the threads that collect the most comments. And, in all honesty, tell me, did you see a lot of sensible thoughts there? And then decide for yourself how fertile this soil is for correcting the shortcomings that are described in the articles? After that, we can start talking about the deservedness of my epithets to the resource. Here's even to take your answer to my comment. After all, you did not oppose anything concrete even to a "handful of pensioners". And why? And I just have a "healthy skepticism" during my active work in law enforcement agencies. It is always helpful to question the credibility of any source of information. Don't you think so?
                      6. Fizik M
                        Fizik M 15 December 2020 02: 38
                        +2
                        Quote: Hagen
                        And I just have during my active work in law enforcement

                        taking into account the amount of nonsense in YOUR posts, YOU were the most of the manager there lol
              2. Alexander Lysenko
                Alexander Lysenko 14 December 2020 18: 29
                +1
                Read about Timokhin's corvettes. The man is beating. Who are you? Criticize, suggest.
          2. Fizik M
            Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 55
            0
            Quote: Hagen
            I suppose we should try to do something

            done
            Quote: Hagen
            especially since there are no obstacles

            Yes
      2. Fizik M
        Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 53
        0
        Quote: Hagen
        And what can this method change? Who hears him? A bunch of retirees who don't influence anything? Have you heard from someone that someone somewhere discussed what is written in VO? I personally have not heard this anywhere.

        YOUR personal sandbox is of no interest to anyone
        and in fact, VO materials are just very read
        one of the upcoming articles just about this (links and use (incorrect) of VO materials by a number of well-known authors from the NIO of the Navy in the NTS KMPO)
        1. Hagen
          Hagen 14 December 2020 21: 05
          0
          Quote: Fizik M
          YOUR personal sandbox is of no interest to anyone
          and in fact, VO materials are just very read
          one of the next articles is just about this (links

          Well, of course, you are so great that there is some interest in the reader ?! He's no one and can't call him! I just want to remind you that you are published in the public space, and you should not express the opinion of ALL so categorically. And since the pluses / minuses are put, then you and here, how would it be softer to put it .... disingenuous (from ambition or misunderstanding of the essence of what was said - not for me to decide). Yes, about links and usage. You really think everyone outside your offices is a little unfinished, or what ... What did you bring there about "incorrect use"? There is such a media citation rating. The rating is there, but you are not there. Questions? So, practice, improve your skills, develop "agents". Maybe someday you will be cited by the newly-entered media. I will leave the rest unanswered, because your style is unreadable.
      3. Fizik M
        Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 54
        +2
        Quote: Hagen
        But there is a "straight line" to the Supreme himself. Why not try and identify the problem?

        Surely YOU are carrying THIS on a sober head? lol
        1. Hagen
          Hagen 15 December 2020 11: 29
          -1
          Quote: Fizik M
          Surely YOU are carrying THIS on a sober head?

          Your question shows that your thinking is narrowly tuned. Like a bent water pipe. Most Russian citizens think about you. Therefore, 80-1 million citizens out of about 2 million able-bodied people go to the direct line. Discard it, take a wider look ... Take and set up a natural experiment. How many of you are in the editorial office and about 10 -20 people? Let everyone formulate their own question (the topic is not important). Journalists will subscribe as journalists, cleaners - just individuals. And in a maximum of a month you will have analytical material for the entire writing of your brothers, and for Mr. Skomorokhov for a month of shock work. In this case, instead of assumptions about the state of health of the commentator, you will have material from a real experiment, and what is more interesting for the reader. And on the basis of the work done, you can not assume, but assert that appeals are / are not considered, answers are coming or not, who is answering what questions, how complete, etc. All this is for a couple of hours of "brainstorming" in the editorial office. Such is the idea. Not for you, Smirnov. He is your inspirer and organizer of success and budget replenishment. Selling is not expensive. All only for the final answer of the editor-in-chief - yes, the idea flew or all the garbage threw us all the answers did not come ...
  • Fizik M
    Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 51
    +3
    Quote: Hagen
    Maybe they will open their eyes to the fleet to the Supreme Commander-in-Chief?

    reports written
    DO YOU bring their requisites?
  • Silhouette
    Silhouette 12 December 2020 07: 22
    -9
    The author confuses air defense and missile defense. He writes about missile defense, but uses a completely different term.
    1. timokhin-aa
      12 December 2020 08: 57
      +6
      This you are confusing, the term 6 air defense refers to the defeat of the CD completely. And ABM is about something else entirely.
    2. PSih2097
      PSih2097 12 December 2020 09: 06
      +7
      Quote: Silhouette
      The author confuses air defense and missile defense. He writes about missile defense, but uses a completely different term.

      in the army and in the navy, air defense and missile defense are one and the same concept (in our troops, we have only air defense with the ability to work on aerodynamic targets and on ballistic targets).
  • Connor MacLeod
    Connor MacLeod 12 December 2020 07: 30
    -4
    Until the thunder breaks out, the man does not cross himself ...
  • parusnik
    parusnik 12 December 2020 07: 35
    +11
    "There will be no war" ...
    ... And why should she be? ... While Chubais is at the "throne", he is the "guarantor of peace and security" .. He drives nails into the "coffin of communism". laughing And then, when the deputies of the State Duma with joyful applause, they meet the American congressmen, one thing is thought ... Their people will figure it out. smile
  • Tagan
    Tagan 12 December 2020 07: 54
    +4
    Quote: Aerodrome
    every day, then "joy" .. then "zircon" is not zircon but - "onyx" ... then the ship's air defense "successfully" worked ... what is that. tomorrow it will become clear that the "vanguard" is "rearguard" .. something becomes scary. belay

    Rely more on eksperDov, such as Kaptsov.))) You believe in what you want to believe. That's all.
  • mark1
    mark1 12 December 2020 08: 18
    -3
    In general, articles of this nature need comments from the Ministry of Defense, a request for which the editorial office of the site should send (the status, it seems, already allows). Because by driving a simple layman into a stupor with such articles that remain without an official explanation, the site runs the risk of slipping to the level of REN TV,
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 56
      +1
      Quote: mark1
      comments of the Ministry of Defense, a request for which the editors of the site should send (the status, it seems, already allows). Because driving the common man into a stupor with such articles that remain without an official explanation

      in the next article stupor will be provided
      from a detailed analysis of the officialdom of the RF Ministry of Defense
  • igorspb
    igorspb 12 December 2020 08: 41
    +2
    If you watch the video of the Thundering firing, you can see the defeat of the target by the Redoubt missile, I don't understand why the author of the article is so indignant? ...
    1. timokhin-aa
      12 December 2020 10: 28
      +4
      Because:

      1. This is an antediluvian target, which in its EPR is many times larger than the enemy's modern anti-ship missiles
      2. She was driven to a height at which real rockets do not fly in attack.
      3. Now this exercise, which could have been performed by TFR "Sharp-witted" in 1970, will be issued for a super-duper achievement and a de facto incapacitated ship will be handed over to the fleet.
      4. The radar can not yet provide the guidance of the gun (although it should).
      5. All this fell into the hands of the state just like crazy.

      Need more?
      1. Poganini
        Poganini 12 December 2020 10: 41
        -4
        That's not why. ))) But I already have one warning, so I cannot specify.
        1. timokhin-aa
          12 December 2020 10: 48
          +10
          Yes, you are just balabol. Here warnings are only for open rudeness. And if you stick to a more or less sane style of communication, then nothing will happen to you. If only you do not confuse sane with insane.

          You basically just have nothing to say, that's all.
          1. Poganini
            Poganini 12 December 2020 14: 40
            -3
            I do not speak on the merits of the matter in areas in which I am not an expert. Unlike journalists and miners.) But by personality I can speak quite competently. Well, I would also speak if we were on another resource, somewhere near Kassad., For example.
            1. timokhin-aa
              12 December 2020 23: 01
              +4
              I do not speak on the merits of the matter in areas in which I am not an expert.


              That is, after reading this article, you did not understand a damn thing in it, it is perceived for you as vldllprukozshoshchp but at the same time you comment on it furiously, right?

              But personally, I can speak quite competently.


              How to understand "competently"? What kind of competence is it, to take an article, the content of which you cannot master from your own words, and according to its text, the meaning of which you do not understand to evaluate the author? Explain this.
              If you master laughing
              1. Poganini
                Poganini 13 December 2020 13: 01
                -3
                Yes, I can master that. Only you will not understand, Since you still have not understood. )
            2. Fizik M
              Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 57
              +2
              Quote: Poganini
              Well, I would also speak if we were on another resource, somewhere near Kassad., For example.

              this is the one who cowardly rubs all uncomfortable comments
              and fulfills frank and even "rotten" "orders"?
      2. Alexander Vorontsov
        Alexander Vorontsov 12 December 2020 18: 18
        -1
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Need more?

        Do not. Then you will have an overdose.

        1. This is an antediluvian target, which in its EPR is many times larger than the enemy's modern anti-ship missiles

        Remember your post, where you watered "pink ponies" with impurities with pathos, incriminating "them" in the fact that they have a narrow understanding of thinking that is not able to cover all the variety of scenarios. And how bad it is to think in a key - if the war, then only with the United States.

        Here you yourself use the word "enemy".
        The logical question is WHAT?
        Not everyone has high-end solutions in service.

        2. She was driven to a height at which real rockets do not fly in attack.

        And why are you writing this? Again, so that there are more numbers on the list, maybe the people will not understand what you are writing about? Altitude will mainly affect the distance from which this missile is detected.
        By the way, there is data to what height it was driven?

        3. Now this exercise, which could have been performed by TFR "Sharp-witted" in 1970, will be issued for a super-duper achievement and a de facto incapacitated ship will be handed over to the fleet.

        This is generally some kind of indistinct nonsense.
        I could, I could ... I could.

        4. The radar can not yet provide the guidance of the gun (although it should).

        Who does he owe? What nonsense.
        It's about a corvette. Kslovu the same Sharpie in 2 times more in displacement.

        5. All this fell into the hands of the state just like crazy.

        Finally, I thought when you say your favorite argument about "big money".
        It is so versatile, you can always say - this weapon costs "big money".

        The fact that everything has its own units of measurement - do not care.
        The main thing is to write CRAZY. The people are eating.
        Because everyone is accustomed to looking at checks from the five and seeing the same order of numbers, and here ... 50 ... 000 - this is crazy money!
        And su 34 is worth a lot of money.
        And even a tank costs a lot of money !!!

        And it doesn't matter that 20 billion for a ship is not big money, well, that's not it.
        And that the possibilities generally correlate with the price tag.


        And about this "sweet dessert"
        there is no radio correction of missiles, the target distribution of missiles becomes virtually random. And here, missing targets in a dense "shashlik" plaque are simply inevitable.

        Hochma is the wildest.

        It's all the same what to write - the pistol does not have an optical sight and a drum for 100 rounds.

        There are only 16 missiles on the ship.
        This is a corvette ... not even a frigate and not even a destroyer, which will have to cost 10 times more.
        What dense shashlik is he talking about?
        The corvette initially cannot be regarded as a combat unit capable of withstanding a DENSE shish kebab ...
        And the fact that such a task was not posed is rather correct than not.

        To do this, you need a full-fledged KUG, an AWACS aircraft, which will allow you to detect and fire a salvo at a fundamentally different distance ... and a single control system for all this, in order to coordinate volleys from different ships.

        For a corvette, the limit is 10 missiles.
        It will shoot down in turn, the next missiles will be re-directed.
        This is a corvette, not a death star. There is no need to make inadequate demands.

        PS
        And about the fact that the target in its EPR is many times larger than the enemy's missiles.
        EPR depends on both materials and geometry.

        The missile geometry has not fundamentally changed. Moreover, the shooting is carried out on a head-on course, i.e. the anti-missile in this case looks super-down and dives at the missile.

        Distance is also an important factor. As it gets closer the influence of stealth technology becomes less and less.
        Therefore, there is no need for another abstract blah blah about "dozens of times" about how the "flying pipe" has fundamentally changed in 30 years. Straight revolutionary.


        The bottom line from all the steel and the claims voiced in them does not remain ANYTHING ...
        1. timokhin-aa
          12 December 2020 22: 47
          +3
          This is written by a person who proposed making a supersonic aircraft refueling aircraft from the Tu-160, and other Tu-160s to attack aircraft carriers.

          Well, let's go in order.

          Here you yourself use the word "enemy".
          The logical question is WHAT?


          In the practice of many Air Force there is such a technique as "free hunting", independent search and destruction of targets. In most cases, it is performed by one plane or a pair of planes.
          A typical combat load at a minimum is one Harpoon anti-ship missile or a similar western small-size missile (the enemy has 1 F / A-18 with one anti-ship missile, for example). The maximum is 8 anti-ship missiles in a dense salvo (a pair of Mitsubishi F-2 with 4 RCC each)

          This is the ship that must fight back. This is the kind of threat that he can face if he acts alone, and this is the minimum threat. SAM ammunition (16 units) and the presence of a very accurate universal weapon would give such an opportunity if the radar "took out".

          And the fact that such a task was not posed is rather correct than not.


          How do you know what the task was?

          For a corvette, the limit is 10 missiles.


          Yah? Where did you get this figure from? Why not 9? Not 11? Did the voices in your head tell you?

          It will shoot down in turn, the next missiles will be re-directed.


          You have written in plain Russian in an article that corvettes do NOT have radio corrections, how missiles will be "re-guided" without it, please explain.

          PS
          And about the fact that the target in its EPR is many times larger than the enemy's missiles.
          EPR depends on both materials and geometry.

          The missile geometry has not fundamentally changed.


          What is this written for? Harpoons, NSM, RBS-15, Japanese ASMs with a very specific RCS will go to our ships, if we want the ship to have a chance of releasing them, we need to use target missiles with a similar RCS, and not many times larger, like in the RM -15.
          What is incomprehensible to you in this?

          I do not consider it necessary to comment on the rest of the stream of consciousness.
          1. Alexander Vorontsov
            Alexander Vorontsov 13 December 2020 12: 00
            -2
            This is written by a person who proposed making a supersonic aircraft refueling aircraft from the Tu-160, and other Tu-160s to attack aircraft carriers.

            I really like the Tu-160, but I have enough sense of humor to adequately look at things, see my bias.
            The same was the case when I wrote about a supersonic tanker.
            It was self-irony.

            As for the attack on surface targets, google about why and how much does the US equip B1 PCs with missiles.




            Also here I talked about how the Americans are preparing to reload their planes with DRUMS, i.e. not hang up 1 rocket, but reload the DRUM at once.
            (https://topwar.ru/177845-kak-rabotaet-voennaja-aviacija.html)
            In the practice of many Air Force there is such a technique as "free hunting"

            You probably also heard the term and decided to apply it in your interpretation.
            The point is that the division of labor has been the most effective since the days of the feudal system.
            When some are engaged in reconnaissance, while others strike.

            That is why there are expensive reconnaissance and control aircraft, AWACS, aircraft correctors, etc.
            Those. for the successful application of aviation, the functions of the REVIEW and CORRECTION are needed.
            I am not going to write a full article on the topic of "free hunting" now.

            I will confine myself to one of the arguments.
            The fact is that in code 1 the aircraft is used as both a reconnaissance and strike, a problem arises - one of the functions that determine the effectiveness of a reconnaissance is its time in the air.
            A shock amount of weapons.

            And so it turns out that these parameters are mutually competing.
            A loaded plane consumes a lot more fuel. He has a larger angle of attack.
            And this greatly reduces its radius.

            Reduces it and such a counter - a normal departure means that he was given a target, he goes to the line and uses the ASP. And it comes back empty.

            Reconnaissance mission - does not guarantee the use of TSA. He may not meet anyone.
            So he will have to return not empty but with the same load.
            Those. the radius is further reduced.

            Well, landing with a full load is generally chic.
            Pilots love it so much. They dream of landing with a full combat load, you can ask your friends.

            In general - tactically failures, no performance characteristics and skills on the spot are not compensated.
            There is a famous case in Tongo-Tongo - when negroes in slippers and shorts killed 4 green berets.
            Millions of US dollars have been invested in their training.
            Expensive tactical body kit, beautiful aggressive stances, twisting the gun like this = 4 corpses.

            Therefore, your attempt to "deduce" the requirements based on the fact that our little ship is floating somewhere alone, closer to their shores than to ours, far from all of its own ... and enemy aircraft begins to bend it, an absurd task at first.

            Cho would "take out" such a Grendizer.

            You described the situation when the ship was sent for slaughter.
            In this situation, he no longer owes anything to anyone.
            As soon as the first planes find it, more calmly take off from the base. And that's all.
            They will be in full body kit, their number will be as much as needed.
            How the ability to coordinate a salvo of missiles should help in this situation, despite the fact that there are only 16 of them - I do not know.
            More precisely I know that NO.

            Yah? Where did you get this figure from? Why not 9? Not 11? Did the voices in your head tell you?

            The total number of missiles on board was multiplied by a coefficient of 0,6 - one of the lowest of those cats I have met.

            You have written in plain Russian in an article that corvettes do NOT have radio corrections, how missiles will be "re-guided" without it, please explain.

            After the first anti-missile missile shoots down its target, this target disappears.
            And if the second, third or fourth missile from the volley was initially aimed at it, it is aimed at the next target.

            Remember how the Syrian military unit shot down our plane?
            They pointed at the Israeli fighter, which turned and knocked off. The rocket in flight continued to look for targets in the area where it was taken out and found our plane and hit what it found.
            1. timokhin-aa
              15 December 2020 22: 44
              +2
              You are either kidding, or you need your passport and your driver's license for being clear.

              Study how the Americans act, what "armed intelligence" is, why for some cases the order sets the order of actions "attack and report", for others, on the contrary, I cannot spend time enlightening the elves from the fairy forest.

              You described the situation when the ship was sent for slaughter.
              In this situation, he no longer owes anything to anyone.


              I have described to you a situation that, on a banal search at the anti-submarine line somewhere in the fourth Kuril Strait, will develop with a probability of 0,9.

              The total number of missiles on board was multiplied by a coefficient of 0,6 - one of the lowest of those cats I have met.


              And nothing that you have to build on the threat, and not on the capabilities of the ship?

              After the first anti-missile missile shoots down its target, this target disappears.
              And if the second, third or fourth missile from the volley was initially aimed at it, it is aimed at the next target.

              Remember how the Syrian military unit shot down our plane?
              They pointed at the Israeli fighter, which turned and knocked off.


              He dragged the rocket just on the IL-20. Regarding the fact that 9M96 will find a new target, there will be no targets behind the front of the volley. In addition, the angle of capture at the seeker is unlikely to allow such things to be done, there are only a few degrees.

              In general, tie. Let's article about the Tu-160 against an aircraft carrier
              1. Alexander Vorontsov
                Alexander Vorontsov 16 December 2020 00: 40
                -1
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Study how the Americans act, what "armed intelligence" is, why for some cases the order sets the order of actions "attack and report", for others, on the contrary, I cannot spend time enlightening the elves from the fairy forest.

                After I normally explained to you the weaknesses of "armed intelligence" you once again make a pretentious face and send your interlocutor "to learn from the Americans" - "to look for something, I don't know what."

                I have described to you a situation that, on a banal search at the anti-submarine line somewhere in the fourth Kuril Strait, will develop with a probability of 0,9.

                OK. You can add specifics to understand what you are describing - whose planes will attack him there and where will they take off from?

                And nothing that you have to build on the threat, and not on the capabilities of the ship?

                Yes, you can start from whatever you want.
                Just explain how you will ignore the actual number of missiles on board.

                there will be no targets behind the front of the salvo

                Take a pencil and a piece of paper. First, draw a front of 8 dots 20 cells from the "ship".
                Then simulate a situation where every 5 seconds the ship fires an anti-missile.
                1st anti-missile missile shoots down missile # 1.
                The 2nd anti-missile missile sees 7 targets and aims at No. 3, knocking it down.
                The 3rd anti-missile missile sees 6 targets, etc.

                But in this case there will be no front.
                This is, again, only "according to your" small planes scribbling ammunition under a ton like a machine gun.

                In addition, the angle of capture at the seeker is unlikely to allow such things to be done, there are only a few degrees.

                This is their angle of view degrees.
                And the antenna itself is rotated by "a few" 40 degrees.
                At the initial stage, the air defense missile gains altitude and attacks from above, aiming at the lead point. That is, it flies (and its axis is directed) to one point (to the point where it should meet the target) and "looks" completely at another (at the target).
                Well, since the rocket is super-maneuverable, it turns its antenna very quickly.
              2. Alexander Vorontsov
                Alexander Vorontsov 16 December 2020 11: 56
                -1
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                I have described to you a situation that, on a banal search at the anti-submarine line somewhere in the fourth Kuril Strait, will develop with a probability of 0,9.

                A little about senarii.

                You have no structure in your story.
                You are chaotically jumping to the top, and it seems that you have written a lot and that means a lot of arguments.

                But in fact, there are just a lot of unrelated illogical things.
                I suggest that you arrange your chaotic statements into a system.

                And to begin with, there are no universal weapons systems, they all interact with each other at the tactical level.

                Take the aforementioned ship. This is a ship of the near (!) Sea zone.
                This means that initially it was meant to be used near our shores, with all that it implies - the possibility of fighter cover, the proximity of other ships, etc.


                And nothing that you have to build on the threat, and not on the capabilities of the ship?

                You need to start repelling the threat at a TACTICAL level.
                And to both sides.

                There are a number of assumptions going on in your scenario. The Japanese, for example, fly imposingly in patrol mode with anti-ship missiles. Obviously (well, since they are searching) their radars are on, and they are shining in full. Those. they can be burned so they won't know they've been burned.
                It is very imposing. This can only be done if you are 2 heads taller than the enemy and the air is completely yours.
                It is more than likely to punish for this.

                If you understand that there is such a threat, this threat is parried by another composition of the group.
                Where are the ships with a different displacement, at least a Frigate with a large number of anti-missiles.

                That's all.

                You deliberately come up with conditions that are excessive for the smallest ship.
                To come up with such conditions is not labor.
                This is not an aircraft carrier, not a destroyer, or even a frigate.
                This is a small corvette.

                Its capabilities are initially limited by its rank in the fleet - this is a small ship.
                If you send him 1 to where he will be caught by enemy aircraft and will be able to fire at him with impunity (!!!) - this is the jamb of the command. Not the jamb of the ship.

                And it is the fact of unpunished shelling that is "sending to the slaughter."

                Well, he shot down all the missiles of the patrol. Further? If ours cannot cover it - well, another 2 samoelt will fly in or 4 ... and that's it. What's the difference what kind of air defense it has?
                They will reach him much earlier than he can swim away somewhere.
        2. Lex_is
          Lex_is 12 December 2020 23: 51
          +1
          For a corvette, the limit is 10 missiles.


          Where does such an amazing standard come from?

          Let's get a look:

          Ada-type corvettes - 21 × RIM-116
          Corvettes of the type "Braunschweig" - 2 × 21 Mk 49 SAM RAM.
          Corvette class "Bung Tomo" - 16 x VLS SAM Seawolf
          Visby-type corvettes - 2 × 8 PU SAM RBS 23 Bamse
          Laxamana-class corvette - 12 × Aspide SAM


          And which of the currently existing corvettes has 10?
        3. The comment was deleted.
          1. Alexander Vorontsov
            Alexander Vorontsov 14 December 2020 19: 43
            0
            Alas, except for emotions and abuse of caps, I saw nothing.

            PM

            Continue and further the kitchen logic, by which you estimate the cost of milk and eggs in the store, to apply to the defense industry. I don't mind
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 16 January 2021 05: 07
              +1
              Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
              Continue further the kitchen logic, by which you estimate the cost of milk and eggs in the store, to apply to the defense industry.

              Monsieur, when YOU are poked at 203 GOST YOU "for some reason" "pretend to be Murzilka" lol
      3. slm976
        slm976 14 December 2020 11: 46
        -2

        1. This is an antediluvian target, which in its EPR is many times larger than the enemy's modern anti-ship missiles
        2. She was driven to a height at which real rockets do not fly in attack.
        3. Now this exercise, which could have been performed by TFR "Sharp-witted" in 1970, will be issued for a super-duper achievement and a de facto incapacitated ship will be handed over to the fleet.
        4. The radar can not yet provide the guidance of the gun (although it should).
        5. All this fell into the hands of the state just like crazy.


        Good afternoon Alexander, on points 1,2,3, XNUMX, XNUMX - everything that you write is, of course, fair, but we must remember that this is the first real test of the "Barrier", and the complex was extremely "simplified" the conditions so that "the first pancake was not lumpy" , but at this stage, the tests of the Zaslon (not the Thundering corvette, but the RLK) do not end, they will move on - from simple to complex ..
        Point 4 is only an assumption that can neither be proved nor disproved, it stems from the fact that the AU did not conduct real firing at an air target, but this does not automatically mean that the radar can not control the AU.
        Point 5, I agree, but the money has already been spent, ships with the "Barrier" have been laid down and are being built, now we need to bring the result to an acceptable level.

        In the meantime, "Zaslon" knocked down a target (yes, a simple one and in ideal conditions), but few believed that he would be able to do this at all this year, there is certainly nothing to "throw caps into the air" for, but this is better than it was supposed, let's see what happens next, maybe what will come out of this radar ...
        1. The comment was deleted.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 12 December 2020 09: 09
    +3
    In Soviet times, target missiles were used for training and training calculations, and bare combat missiles were used for testing - at the end of the article this is exactly what is said
    1. PSih2097
      PSih2097 12 December 2020 09: 19
      +1
      Quote: Konnick
      During the Soviet era

      if something like this happened in the USSR, both heads and shoulder straps would fly, and some "lucky ones" would go to remove snow in the Arctic Circle ...
      1. Poganini
        Poganini 12 December 2020 10: 43
        -3
        Is that why the "doves of peace" ran across the oceans in Soviet times? )
    2. lopvlad
      lopvlad 13 December 2020 20: 53
      0
      Quote: Konnick
      and for the tests were used bare combat missiles


      I wonder where they took the naked military missiles of the NATO countries, which apparently were to be used on tests in the USSR. For since the Soviet military-industrial complex on naval issues in missiles was always catching up, it would be a crime to use their bare missiles in terms of characteristics inferior to the American ones, and state tests were not correct.
  • UAZ 452
    UAZ 452 12 December 2020 09: 45
    +7
    the newest corvette of the Navy could not "overcome" a single large-size air target, which passed the zone of destruction of the "Redut" air defense missile system, then "hundreds" (gun mounts A-190), and only the multi-barreled AK-630-02 submachine guns finally "overcame" it

    Not the fact that they overcame. After a few years ago at the Pskov training ground, a radio-dominating group accidentally fell under a tank shot, it has ceased to be a secret for the general public that at ostentatious events all targets are equipped with a radio-controlled explosive charge, if they are missed, they are blown up remotely, so as not to upset the inspectors ... Here, perhaps, the success of the AK-630-02 was associated with the use of such a charge.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 12 December 2020 09: 52
    +16
    The problem is systemic .... The shortage of personnel in the defense industry is catastrophic. If you look at sites with vacancies, at least in Moscow, for example, Khrunicheva SPC is looking for designers with a salary of 35 thousand and with work experience of 3 years or more, when there is an advertisement for a vacancy of a ventilation facade designer from 80 thousand with experience of 3 years or more. Something surreal is happening, the poet, singer, motorcyclist and journalist of a wide profile Rogozin has a salary higher than that of the head of NASA and a structure of top managers with comparable American salaries, he is looking for ready-made gas dynamics designers for a salary even low by national standards. But to control the construction of his office-tower he offers 80 thousand to the constructor-builder.
    KB Tupolev was looking for a salary of 120 thousand ready-made deputy. Ch. Weapon designer. The widest offer of vacancies on the websites is the Kalashnikov concern, it seems they have a total shortage of personnel.
    And our defective top managers are trying to show off with such beautiful events and justify the money received, invested in themselves irreplaceable ...
    The most interesting thing is that developers are required, but managers are not. Managers are all their ... relatives, acquaintances and other idlers who can only specify deadlines and receive many times more specialists ... a holy place is never empty.
    1. Lex_is
      Lex_is 12 December 2020 10: 19
      +8
      The shortage of personnel in the defense industry is catastrophic.

      And why should it not be, when the KB management, offering 60 thousand to designers and developers in all seriousness, voices: "The main management link, and we will find electronics engineers and programmers in any trash heap!" ? Given that programmers with such skills cost 220-300 thousand on the market? Who in their right mind and respecting themselves will work there?
    2. victor50
      victor50 12 December 2020 13: 27
      -1
      Quote: Konnick
      And our defective top managers are trying to show off with such beautiful events and justify the money received, invested in themselves irreplaceable ...

      Why is MO with them in the same harness? Or is there the same alignment - effective managers in uniform?
  • Alexander Kopychev
    Alexander Kopychev 12 December 2020 09: 59
    +8
    Hmmm! A devastating article - waiting for "Tsushima". But there is good news - a missile launched from the Baltic Fleet missile boat R-257, it turns out that it hit the target for sure. laughing
    1. UAZ 452
      UAZ 452 12 December 2020 10: 45
      +8
      Struck a virtually defenseless target. Better than nothing, but also not a reason for incredible pride.
      1. Alexander Kopychev
        Alexander Kopychev 12 December 2020 10: 50
        +5
        God forbid from pride, as I remember how I collected my "correspondents" in the radio network, I shudder. "Nothing has changed under the Moon."
  • Runway
    Runway 12 December 2020 10: 10
    +8
    Maxim presents the problem quite expressively, but indirectly, with the introduction of a technical "ambush" on the capabilities of the air defense of steamers, the level of bp of units / units / formations emerges.
    And it is not only the glorious Navy that is lame.
    You can take any unit of the non-Red Army (even the guard, "on the ground and into battle" or a spetsuru) by driving them through the UKS (with a minimal change in the situation) - we will get a failure.
    winked
    1. UAZ 452
      UAZ 452 12 December 2020 10: 54
      +10
      Recently I watched a story about the next showy competition of landowners. First, as usual, the tanks jump, shoot in flight (I would calculate for such a mediocre ammunition consumption), and then perform an exercise to hit the target (in clear weather, full-size, motionless - a shooting range, and not a situation close to a real battle) from MANPADS ... The gap is visible 10 meters from the target, the commentator off-screen: the target is hit! The curtain. Then, after the video, a text report: there are more than 50% misses even in such an ideal situation for the operator! And after all, these are the best servicemen in all the Armed Forces, specially trained for these competitions! if we extrapolate the situation to real military actions, then everything is not just sad, but depressing. And to the current MO, such an impression, such things are not entirely up to the lantern, but much less interesting than the construction of a temple, another parade, inventing another little thing for a parade, especially for its female version ... God forbid that our army only be in parades and had to participate, here only Indians are ahead of us.
      1. Runway
        Runway 12 December 2020 11: 36
        +4
        I'm not talking about window dressing for the shirnarmass, but about the banal readiness to solve problems as intended, at least educational ones during the final one.
        In 93, he selected a soldier at the training, was present at the OP (uks ak-1). The training outpost fired very well. Pulled the excellent students, spoke with the operator, two pairs "to battle!" - 4 fail. A banal change in the order of lifting targets ...
        The month "brought" the fighters to the realities, clumsy blanket notes on the planners. Skated without loss.
      2. Poganini
        Poganini 12 December 2020 16: 29
        -6
        Your army, yes, it is better only in parades. And ours in 2008 and 2014 quite revealingly fucked up both "trained by NATO standards" and non-brothers.
        1. UAZ 452
          UAZ 452 12 December 2020 19: 18
          +10
          The Armenian army also rested on its laurels for 30 years after the victory, considering itself invincible. And the Azerbaijanis simply increased their combat capability. And in general, the state has no more dangerous enemies than hats of all stripes.
          1. Poganini
            Poganini 12 December 2020 19: 25
            -8
            The morning began on the collective farm. But it will not be possible to distort the cards under the table imperceptibly. I answered a post about the Russian army, why did the Armenian army suddenly appear? Did Russia hang with luli in 2008 and 2014 or not?
            Tolya is a matter of whiners and vsepapalschiki - from them that help the state wow. In wartime, they are spanked and done right.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 12 December 2020 10: 15
    +2
    Quote: Sidor Amenpodestovich
    What was the last book you read and when?

    Do not be surprised, I am at that age when you read everything again ... I read "Virgin Land Upturned" after 30 years of first reading. Now I'm going to read Klim Samgin.
  • timokhin-aa
    12 December 2020 10: 33
    +7
    For those who are not yet aware of what "Zaslon" is and who its director is - https://neva.versia.ru/glava-peterburgskogo-oboronnogo-predpriyatiya-zaslon-okazalsya-krupnym-korrupcionerom

    The pulp from there:
    Finally, Gorbunov's amazing fearlessness was his open relationship with the already mentioned American Mike Sherman. Our interlocutor, a former employee of Zaslon, said that Sherman was constantly spinning at the plant, “warming his ears” at corporate events, where people who have access to state secrets, having drunk, naturally talk about work.

    An electronic mailbox was even created for the American on the Zaslon server. Currently, he is employed as the head of international development at CJSC GlobalMED, which is part of the structure of OJSC MC PROMINVEST. By the way, the management of Zaslon was transferred to this company in 2014, so now the role of the general director there, in a simple way, is played by the management company, with a bunch of signers, and with which, in which case, something is much more difficult ask.

    However, Gorbunov shared with Sherman information regarding the fulfillment of defense orders, and even sent him some documentation through open communication channels.

    So among the materials received by our editors, there was a letter that Gorbunov sent to his American friend on January 3, 2014 at 20:23.14. The attachment contained a memo concerning so-called purchased components, chips made in the USA (Hittite) and Japan (Sumitomo), which were banned for sale in a number of countries. The note provided information on possible ways of organizing the supply of large quantities of these microcircuits to Leninets. Already at XNUMX pm on the same day, Sherman answered Gorbunov exactly how to negotiate with suppliers, contact a foreign distributor by phone.

    On the evening of January 7, Sherman sends Gorbunov a transcript of his conversation with Martha Brownen, an employee of the Hittite Corporation office in Ireland, through which the firm's products are officially supplied to Russia. The talk in that conversation was about the possibility of organizing deliveries bypassing the only representative of "Hittite" in Russia, ZAO "Radiant-EK", whose mark-ups reach 80%. It is rather strange that some time after this correspondence the supply of Hittite microcircuits to Leninets ceased altogether.

    Source: https://neva.versia.ru/glava-peterburgskogo-oboronnogo-predpriyatiya-zaslon-okazalsya-krupnym-korrupcionerom
  • Konnick
    Konnick 12 December 2020 10: 55
    +4
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Source: https://neva.versia.ru/glava-peterburgskogo-oboronnogo-predpriyatiya-zaslon-okazalsya-krupnym-korrupcionerom

    And how can you not say that it is necessary to clean up and change the structure of enterprise management, i.e. all sorts of management companies, etc. evil himself worked in the Criminal Code.

    "The head of Tesla and SpaceX, Elon Musk, recently ranked second in the list of the richest people in the world, called the problem of economic education, which is given by business schools, reports Fox.

    In his opinion, an MBA (Master of Business Administration) degree from a company executive often means that he thinks more about numbers than about his own product. Musk noted that nowadays there are more and more enterprises in the United States for which the MBA degree is more important than other advantages, and this is already a problem. "

    When our country had successes, the leadership had educated specialists, and now, literally from the diploma - "master of administration", they are worse than imported ones. From my own experience, I’ll say that they can’t throw money from one place to another, but when tossing money, they skillfully substitute their pockets.
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 12 December 2020 10: 57
    +1
    That in BB1, that in BB2 we used the fleet rather passively, the USSR's approach to naval building should, in theory, break this tendency, but now everything inevitably returns to where it began - due to changes in the economic and foreign policy situation.
    Probably, the country's leadership does not have ambitious plans to use the fleet in the event of a hypothetical conflict, at most it will exist as a kind of deterrent on its own shores.
    Hence the approach to maximum damage (probably relying on external target designation) and reducing protection (relying on the external echeloned air defense / missile defense). Vryatli are going to engage in raiding, and even more so to organize some kind of large-scale operations - they regard the fleet as an "ace in the sleeve" rather than as a real card.
    But this is my personal opinion, I am a person far from the navy. However, all this as a whole fits into the general strategy of the fish-ball, which our country fosters - that we are big and terrible, don't touch us, we have "nuclear weapons" and in general we can gnaw everything into dust and a shield and dance with a spear. And the expectation is precisely for the enemy to stay away, having a sour forecast in terms of the "loss-result" ratio in hypothetical stratoplanning (and not on some real counter-activity in the event of such a conflict).
  • Konnick
    Konnick 12 December 2020 11: 05
    +4
    Quote: Lex_is
    "The main management link, and we will find electronics engineers and programmers in any trash heap!" ?

    In the American production system, the management team is an administrative body and the head of the design bureau can receive a salary lower than that of any specialist developer. In our country, in order to get a good salary, you need to go to the leaders and sacrifice your skills and abilities.
  • Konnick
    Konnick 12 December 2020 12: 04
    +3
    Quote: UAZ 452
    from MANPADS. The gap is visible 10 meters from the target, the commentator off-screen: the target is hit!

    Correct a little ... from the ATGM. It was like this, in a tank biathlon, in ideal conditions, they smear from cannons from place to target at 1500 meters. And I don't even want to talk about shooting on the move, on flat concrete, at the speed of a pedestrian ...
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 12 December 2020 18: 30
      -5
      Judging by the use of KUV in the tank biathlon, conscripts were sitting in tanks.
      1. Fizik M
        Fizik M 14 December 2020 19: 10
        +1
        Quote: Vadim237
        conscripts were in the tanks.

        where are the "conscripts"
        the question is in the PSU level
  • Kuz
    Kuz 12 December 2020 12: 44
    +16
    Thanks to the authors for the article. As has been repeatedly stated - you need to kick "these". Better yet, ask stricter. The competent authorities have work.
  • baltiksi
    baltiksi 12 December 2020 13: 07
    -1
    You are there in Russia, whatever you want, but for us, what to do in Belarus. We have enough of our own idiot. In general, oil painting - everyone knows about everything - admiral generals divide medals, orders, but as a war ... we are not ready again. And with this country you advise us to unite? Yes nah .. do we need it? You will decide at your place ... You can influence these Freaks from the MO, or not. ? Well then, we are all hostages of their deposits in Western banks.
    1. lopvlad
      lopvlad 13 December 2020 20: 37
      +2
      Quote: baltiksi
      Well, what about us, what to do in Belarus


      and that the sea appeared in Belarus and the issue of purchasing ships with effective air defense became acute. And in the opinion of the author of the article, only American can be effective sea air defense.

      As for Belarus, it is only a naive one who can think that it has two options for development as a country. There is only one option for development and it is part of Russia, no matter what Russia is, even a republic (federation), even in a confederal status.
      Everything else is disintegration, collapse and a historical end. And who told you that if the USSR collapsed, then the parts of the republic that were part of it should not fall apart?
  • huntsman650
    huntsman650 12 December 2020 13: 58
    +8
    We worked on P15, in 2000. Defeat on 5.5 splashdown on 3.3. It flew not high. Consumption of one zur zrk Dagger. But according to p35, they managed to work out all the zos of the ship, crossed the kilowater track and fell. The problem in the fleets is acute with missile targets. They shoot at sea targets, this is more of a test of operability, not combat readiness))). Yes, most likely they shot at RM-120?
  • Elturisto
    Elturisto 12 December 2020 14: 16
    -1
    Excellent article. Thanks to the author.
  • Wolf
    Wolf 12 December 2020 14: 32
    +5
    To the author BOLSHI PLUS for the article !!!
    Bravely he wrote and brought facts.
    SYSTEM PROBLEM !!! And the fundamental problems go deep into the past !!!
    If someone says that the author has exposed the secret of "partnerim" from NATO to the military, he simply does not know anything, or is working for the enemy!
    Who benefits from keeping silent about such problems?
    1. NATO partners
    2. To crooks in enterprises who use such weapons
    3. Separated by government officials
    The warriors in the navy and armies are silent simply according to the system that was installed back in the time of the army of the USSR, and this was transferred to all armies that were organized in the Soviet model.
    So, if a bunt, an officer of which unit announces to his superiors that his military equipment is TECHNICAL DEFECTIVE, he only gets problems and threatens his own military career !!!
    So, for example, it happened with the Serbian army in 1999 of all Mig29s, there were only 2-3 slaughterhouses, the rest were less or more technical problems !!!
    The pilots declared this to their superiors long before 1999, but then the information about it was stopped !!! It didn't work out for the military unit further! The head of the bunt, the officer did not want to threaten his military career!
    In fact, together that he would receive the REWARD THAT WAS INSTALLED A TECHNICAL FAILURE OF THE WEAPON, he got on the ears of the authorities!
    Consequences of such a military system and MISS FOR THE LIFE OF SOLDIERS AND OFFICERS AND DEFENSE ABILITY OF THE COUNTRY !!!
    So in 1999, many pilots of officers were killed. BRAVRES ARE FLYING IN DEFECTIVE VEHICLES, BUT WE KNEW THAT THEIR HAVE NO CHANCE HERE!

    Another SYSTEM ERROR is that there is no responsibility for weapons manufacturers who are not capable of combat !!! If you offer the trash of your army and sell something to your grandmother to put in your pocket, then if your weapon is not working, you threaten the life of soldiers and officers and the state, you are a traitor to the majority and you must sit in the colony and think what you did and everyone is state with you officials who helped you sell your trash to the army.

    The third SYSTEM ERROR The level of the salary of designers and workers in industrial defense enterprises !!!, as well as the social security of them and their families. This mistake should be solved by the STATE AT THE LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT BY SYSTEM LAWS !!!
    The roots of these SYSTEM ERRORS go back to the far past and no one has solved them for 70 years, no sense in Russia, but in all the countries of the socialist, and in the former Yugoslavia too !!!
  • nonsense
    nonsense 12 December 2020 15: 33
    +4
    what EMNIP has already happened in the Soviet Navy. For example, the MRK "Monsoon" died on April 16, 1987 from a target ... And he also hit this target (the same one?) And a pair of missiles of the "Osa" air defense missile system and then finished shooting (and also hit!) From the 57mm AK-725 but the target still got into the "Monsoon", fuel spilled and the boat burned out :( with great human casualties ... However, until now no conclusion was made about the effectiveness of the missile defense system of domestic ships.
    1. Pushkowed
      Pushkowed 16 December 2020 10: 08
      +2
      Yes, the same one. The monsoon was ditched by the same RM-15, for which Thundering worked. And it will be heavier than the RM-24 (four times this way).
  • Foxnova
    Foxnova 12 December 2020 15: 41
    0
    I just have one question. You are talking about countering the enemy's slaves. Why should a corvette be in a losing situation. Without using your Rab environment.

    1. huntsman650
      huntsman650 12 December 2020 16: 09
      0
      They put passive interference)))
    2. timokhin-aa
      12 December 2020 22: 10
      -2
      The question is in testing the air defense system, in battle the corvette will of course use electronic warfare equipment, if necessary.
      1. Foxnova
        Foxnova 14 December 2020 10: 35
        0
        How many successful interceptions of anti-aircraft missile systems were there?
        The main part was assigned to the rab
  • Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 12 December 2020 16: 13
    -1
    from the first lines I guessed the respected Maxim Klimov .... apparently there is no answer to the topical questions raised by him, except for the method of Admiral Kuznetsov borrowed by him from one marquis .... "surface ships go to sea only in peacetime" ... but then why are these all ships? this is my old idea of ​​the uselessness of surface warships outside the umbrella of coastal air defense and coastal aviation .. the death of a corvette is a tragedy, and the death of an even more defenseless aircraft carrier, what will it be?
    1. Ivanchester
      Ivanchester 13 December 2020 00: 19
      +3
      Vladimir, do not consider it a work: remind, please, the number of the order of N.G. Kuznetsov, which would say what you wrote.
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 13 December 2020 08: 02
        -3
        да вот вам https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82-%D0%90%D1%80%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B0


        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%85%D0%BE%D0%B4

        the first days of the Great Patriotic War, due to the rapid advance of German troops along the coast of the Baltic Sea and the Gulf of Finland, the main task of the Baltic Fleet was to participate in the defense of Leningrad and Kronstadt. In particular, located in Kronstadt and Leningrad 2 battleships "Marat" and "October Revolution", 2 light cruisers "Kirov" and "Maxim Gorky", 2 leaders "Leningrad" and "Minsk", 11 destroyers "Experienced", "Strong", Strict "," Steadfast "," Sharp-witted "," Severe "," Glorious "," Guarding "," Fierce "," Threatening "and" Proud ", as well as an unfinished heavy cruiser" Petropavlovsk "were included in the defense system of Leningrad and brought together in the western and eastern groups. The third group consisted of naval coastal artillery located in the Kronstadt area. Were prepared for combat use long-range guns (406 mm) Scientific test naval artillery range, located in the area of ​​Rzhevka, then in the suburbs of Leningrad.
        http://bgudkov.ru/%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BB-3-%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8-%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%85-%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BD%D1%8B%D1%85-%D0%BA%D0%BE-2/3-17-%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%B8-%D0%BF%D0%BE-%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%89%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5-%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B0-%D0%B8-%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD/
        1. Ivanchester
          Ivanchester 13 December 2020 12: 13
          +4
          Vladimir, it's all clear.
          I only ask you to name a document in which N.G. Kuznetsov would prohibit surface ships from going to sea.
          If you do not have such a document, then admit that your comment about
          . "surface ships go to sea only in peacetime."
          1. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 13 December 2020 19: 36
            -2
            the ban was in effect, but there was no official order, such an order would have turned out to be a statement of the obvious fact of the erroneousness of the increase in the number and size of surface ships, Three admirals were shot immediately after the war, but Kuznetsov himself was removed for the collapse of the fleet only after the explosion of the battleship in Sevastopol by Italian divers, with flagrantly incompetent admirals who destroyed not only a ship that could still be saved, but also a lot of people. All this is logical, on the one hand, they saw funds for unnecessary surface ships, on the other, an elementary mess, unhindered access of the enemy directly to the port, on the third, a total inability even to solve the problem of towing the injured ship through the port water area, in the presence of tugs and port facilities, misunderstanding of the importance and evacuation of the team from the damaged ship, instead, on the contrary, they drove many more personnel onto the sinking ship .... what is this? It is no coincidence that a modern useless aircraft carrier was named after Kuznetsov, who did not win in any battle, as, incidentally, it is fashionable to name ships by their names, except for Nakhimov Kornilov Istomin, Sinyavin, Ushakov, who fought them in general? no one all sat in the headquarters.
            1. Ivanchester
              Ivanchester 14 December 2020 10: 04
              0
              Vladimir, and what large ships before the war were laid down on the initiative or at least in agreement with N.G. Kuznetsov?
              And what is his personal fault in the disaster of the LNK "Novorossiysk", taking into account the fact that N.G. Kuznetsov was not at all in Sevastopol during the rescue operation?
              And don't you think that this explosion turned out to be a surprisingly convenient excuse for NS Khrushchev to remove Kuznetsov from his post, taking into account their very difficult relationship? And this, in turn, casts doubt on the "Italian version" of events ...
              1. Vladimir1155
                Vladimir1155 14 December 2020 16: 35
                -1
                "So it was this time, but, thank God, they saved their lives. Alafuzov and Stepanov were given ten years each, and Galler, the legendary Galler, who at the dawn of the revolution decisively suppressed the rebellious fort of Krasnaya Gorka of the Kronstadt fortress with the fire of the main caliber of his cruiser, and so The Bolsheviks who saved power the most - only four. Stalin took pity on Kuznetsov - he was only demoted to the rank of counter-admiral (that is, to one small star on his shoulder straps) and sent to serve in Kamchatka. This was regarded as a great success! "
                Quote: Ivanchester

                And what is his personal fault in the disaster of the LNK "Novorossiysk", taking into account the fact that N.G. Kuznetsov was not at all in Sevastopol during the rescue operation?
                .
                What is the captain's fault if the ship sank while he was sleeping? the captain does not stand at the helm and most likely does not deal with any internal current issues, ..... everything is done by the first officer, the officers are the team .... the task of the admiral (general, officer and just the boss) is to organize everything in such a way to prepare people so that everything the emerging issues were resolved by these people correctly ... The Soviet fleet from the Russian, imperial, got 4 battleships (more precisely, dreadnoughts), which were all laid down in 1909 and entered service in 1914:

                "Sevastopol" - the head, on which the whole series is named; expelled from the fleet in 1956,

                "Poltava" - lost its combat effectiveness as a result of a severe fire in 1919, renamed "Mikhail Frunze" in 1926, finally dismantled for metal in 1946,

                "Petropavlovsk" - renamed "Marat" in 1926, heavily damaged in 1941, participated in the defense of Leningrad, the name "Petropavlovsk" was restored in 1943, dismantled for metal in 1953,

                "Gangut" - renamed "October Revolution" in 1925, participated in the defense of Leningrad, was expelled from the fleet in 1956.

                These battleships did not play any decisive role either before the war, or during it, or after. In fact, until the early 1950s there were only 2 battleships in combat formation - Sevastopol and October Revolution (Gangut).

                In 1938, construction began on a series of 4 new battleships, named after the lead ship - "Soviet Union" as part of the program for the construction of an ocean-going fleet. However, by the beginning of the war, due to lack of funds, as well as repression among the engineering and design personnel, construction was suspended. After the war, attempts were made to complete the construction of the lead ship, but soon, due to lack of funds, construction was discontinued and all laid ships of the series were dismantled for scrap. Moscow then turned to Washington with a proposal to sell it the finished battleship, but the Americans did not agree to this deal.

                After the Great Patriotic War, the USSR received, in the order of reparations, the old Italian battleship Giulio Cesare, which was laid down in 1910, and entered service in 1914. Before the Cesare was transferred to the USSR in 1948, the Soviet The fleet temporarily used the old British battleship Royal Sovereign, which was then returned to Great Britain.

                "Cesare" was modernized and in 1955 was accepted into the fleet under the name "Novorossiysk", but it did not last long.

                On October 29, 1956, a powerful explosion occurred on the Novorossiysk, which was in the roadstead of the Sevastopol Bay, as a result of which the ship sank. The cause of the explosion is unknown. Among the most probable versions is the strike of an accidental mine from the time of the war or the self-detonation of the combat stock on the ship. There were also speculations about sabotage by the Italians. 829 people died, 9 were saved.

                The catastrophe became the largest in the history of the Soviet fleet. It was kept secret until the late 1980s.

                The death of "Novorossiysk" was used by the Minister of Defense Marshal G. Zhukov to resign and demote the obstinate and independent commander-in-chief of the Navy N. Kuznetsov in 1956. Admiral Kuznetsov put before the Soviet leadership the question of building a new large oceanic fleet, however, in 1955 For reasons of cost savings and the fundamental impossibility of achieving parity with the United States in surface forces, the correct decision was made to rely on the nuclear submarine fleet, which Kuznetsov perceived as a personal defeat. In honor of him, the only domestic aircraft carrier that remains in the combat composition of the Russian fleet is named - the Admiral Kuznetsov heavy aircraft-carrying cruiser. https://yandex.ru/q/question/byli_li_linkory_v_sssr_21d8da30/
                1. Vladimir1155
                  Vladimir1155 14 December 2020 16: 56
                  -2
                  He planned the construction of aircraft carriers, submarines, a huge number of ships unbearable for the war-ravaged country, Stalin rejected aircraft carriers in favor of a small number of cruisers (then the cruiser was not yet the size of a battleship, but corresponded to a modern frigate), although from the experience of the war it seemed that: to replace artillery naval strike aircraft deployed on aircraft-carrying ships come to the ships. This wise decision of Stalin predetermined the coastal nature of the fleet, which was tied to the coast at a distance of the action of the aircraft covering it from the coast. That is, Stalin understood that the fleet was of secondary importance and was intended to support the ground forces, Stalin understood in advance that the accident rate of Kuzi would go off scale to the point that the aircraft carrier would become useless in Syria ... but Kuznetsov and his successor Gorshkov achieved an exorbitant increase in the tonnage of cruisers by bringing them sizes and capacities up to super battleships.



                  Defending the provisions of his program, Kuznetsov angered Stalin. In November 1945, the abbreviated program was adopted. At the beginning of 1946, the People's Commissar of the Navy presented Stalin with a new report, this time on the need to have a single organization of all the Armed Forces, and not two People's Commissariats. In it, he offered to subordinate the Navy to the People's Commissar of the Armed Forces, but opposed intermediate instances between the People's Commissar and the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy in the form of departments and directorates for naval affairs in the People's Commissariat of Defense and the General Staff. By this time the People's Commissariat of the Navy was liquidated, and the Commander-in-Chief of the Navy became the first deputy minister of the Armed Forces, that is, Stalin himself.

                  Stalin decided to get rid of such an uncompromising deputy, and at the beginning of 1947, the Admiral of the USSR Fleet went to Leningrad to serve as the head of naval universities.
                  1. Alexey RA
                    Alexey RA 14 December 2020 20: 21
                    +2
                    Quote: vladimir1155
                    He planned the construction of aircraft carriers, submarines, a huge number of ships unbearable for the war-torn country.

                    I recommend inquiring about the number of Ave 30-bis built contrary to Kuznetsov's plans. There is no People's Commissar - and a huge series of obsolete ships is still being built.
                    In the USSR, the final decision on the shipbuilding program was taken by the People's Commissariat for Shipbuilding. He told the People's Commissar of Shipbuilding that he would not build modern ships, but instead of them he would send the reworked old-fashioned pre-war projects to the fleet - and that is what happened. And he even let down the ideological base - they say that the ships planned by Kuznetsov for the construction are too complicated, the workers will build them for a long time, they will earn little - so the NK Navy is opposed to the working class.
                    Quote: vladimir1155
                    Stalin rejected aircraft carriers in favor of a small number of cruisers (then the cruiser was not yet the size of a battleship, but corresponded to a modern frigate)

                    Mwa-ha-ha ... just Stalin's cruisers were monsters the size of a battleship. That the leader's favorite ships are the Stalingrad MRT, that their younger brothers are armed with 220-mm artillery.
                    Quote: vladimir1155
                    This wise decision of Stalin predetermined the coastal nature of the fleet, which was tied to the coast at a distance of the action of the aviation covering it from the coast.

                    That is, thanks to the decision of the IVS, the fleet lost its means of influencing the enemy outside the radius of coastal aviation and was doomed to simply wait until it was destroyed.
                    And I still do not remember about the first generation SSBNs and the need for their withdrawal to positional areas off the coast of the United States. The enemy's PLO lines are located behind the radius of the aircraft covering from the coast, so that the enemy can work on the submarine as at a training ground.
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                    2. Vladimir1155
                      Vladimir1155 14 December 2020 21: 42
                      -2
                      Quote: Alexey RA
                      People's Commissar of Shipbuilding, that he would not build modern ships, but instead of them would drive to the fleet the reworked old junk of pre-war projects - and it happened. And he even let the ideological base down - they say that the ships planned by Kuznetsov for the construction are too complicated, the workers will build them for a long time,

                      Wow, the People's Commissar said to the point, the history of Kuzi and other battleship cruisers, and foreign ABs, is evidence of his innocence, Kuzya is almost always under repair ... and sucks the military budget in vain by billions. “If you want to ruin a small country, give it a cruiser” ... The phrase in the title belongs to W. Churchill.
                      1. Alexey RA
                        Alexey RA 15 December 2020 16: 21
                        +1
                        Quote: vladimir1155
                        wow, the People's Commissar said to the point, the history of Kuzi and other battleship cruisers, and foreign AB, is confirmation of his innocence

                        What does this have to do with the aircraft carriers ?! People's Commissar for shipbuilding refused to build ships of new projects all types - including destroyers. Who, nafig, needs a destroyer at the end of the 40s without universal artillery main battery and full-fledged MZA, with directors and SSP (I don't stutter about STAAG)? Who needs a 1939 air defense cruiser? But no, the NKSP has no other ships for the fleet.
                      2. Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 15 December 2020 20: 51
                        -1
                        Quote: Alexey RA
                        Who needs a 1939 air defense cruiser? But no, the NKSP has no other ships for the fleet.

                        that's exactly not needed in conditions when bread is rationed and some are dying of hunger (1946-1948), definitely not needed
                  2. Vladimir1155
                    Vladimir1155 14 December 2020 21: 47
                    -2
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    And I still do not remember about the first generation SSBNs and the need for their withdrawal to positional areas off the coast of the United States. The enemy's PLO lines are located behind the radius of the aircraft covering from the coast, so that the enemy can work on the submarine as at a training ground.

                    here it is your main idea! and all the uryapatriots fighting for useless surface monsters, but the submarines always went there without them and somehow managed, and your monsters, instead of "the need to withdraw them to positional areas off the coast of the United States," rusted at the pier in perpetual repair.
                    1. Alexey RA
                      Alexey RA 15 December 2020 16: 24
                      +1
                      Quote: vladimir1155
                      only the submarines always went there without them and somehow managed

                      Uh-huh ... went. Something like the way strategists fly now - in peacetime and under supervision. How an SSBN would have to be guided through an ASW deployed in wartime is a great mystery.
                2. Ivanchester
                  Ivanchester 14 December 2020 23: 42
                  +2
                  Vladimir, judging by the seamless footcloths from Vicky, you are not quite familiar with the topic.
                  1. Kuznetsov was removed from office twice: the first time under I.V. Stalin - on a trumped-up charge of transferring materials on a secret torpedo to the British. After that, Adm. Kuznetsov was very quickly reinstated in his position and rank, so you should understand that Stalin appreciated him and did not see a more suitable leader of the Navy.
                  The second time happened under NS Khrushchev - after the successful death of the LNK Novorossiysk, in which it is difficult not to see sabotage by the MGB.
                  2. NG Kuznetsov had nothing to do with the pre-war projects of the ships. became Commissar quite shortly before the start of the war.
                  Battleships and, to some extent, cruisers really did not act so actively, but the reason for this course of action is not the passivity of the Navy leadership, but the total superiority of the Nazis in the air. And why this was the case, we must ask not the sailors, but the pilots of the Red Army.
                  3. Unlike the opponents of aircraft carrier ships, N.G. Kuznetsov understood perfectly well that it is better to defeat the enemy fleet in the ocean than to reap the fruits of his unpunished strikes on its own coast, therefore he quite reasonably demanded the construction of a balanced fleet, and consisting of ships of the latest projects, and not pre-war relics.
                  Khrushchev and Zhukov did not share his opinion, the stake was placed on submarines and missiles.
                  If you are curious how this one-sidedness in the development of the fleet ended, then read about the Cuban missile crisis.
                  1. Vladimir1155
                    Vladimir1155 15 December 2020 00: 03
                    -2
                    Quote: Ivanchester
                    Unlike the opponents of aircraft carrier ships, N.G. Kuznetsov understood perfectly well that it is better to defeat the enemy fleet in the ocean than to reap the benefits of its unpunished strikes on its own coast,

                    unsubstantiated and false assertion of the times of the absence of railways ... where did the Germans defeat the ground armies with battleships? and when in history was it besides Sinope and the times of sailing ships? the decision to accelerate the development of the submarine fleet was a wise decision of Stalin. The wisdom of the leader consisted in using the skills of those people that were available, he did not find another even capable of a marine manager, but he had to teach Kuznetsov the wits of reason, the pre-war shipbuilding program was weighed and wise, a lot of submarines and small destroyers (sea hunters = modern IPC MRK) in a large series. The Cuban Missile Crisis is the bungling of naval commanders in their provocative attempts to knock out budgets for the battleship, there were enough patrol boats and destroyers to escort convoys in the fleet then, but they were not sent into the ocean on purpose .... pests.
                    1. Ivanchester
                      Ivanchester 15 December 2020 00: 44
                      +2
                      If you look a little wider and remember that WWII was going on not only in Europe, then you will understand where cruisers, battleships and especially aircraft carriers were in demand. Or are you able to describe an alternative in which the Americans defeat the Japanese using only patrol boats and small submarines?
                      And if you think a little more and realize who became the most likely enemy of the USSR after the end of the war, it will be obvious that to win at sea it was required to have a fleet of comparable strength.
                    2. Vladimir1155
                      Vladimir1155 15 December 2020 09: 45
                      -1
                      Quote: Ivanchester
                      Or are you able to describe an alternative in which the Americans beat the Japanese,

                      no need to compare the big to the flat, the Americans have the power of the world financial hegemon in the person of the FRS since the death of the Titanic and the military capabilities of the world military gendarme ... and Russia is a continental power just emerging from total devastation and hunger .... other opportunities other tasks
                    3. Ivanchester
                      Ivanchester 15 December 2020 10: 33
                      +1
                      Vladimir, you are in captivity of some monstrous stereotypes.
                      What does it mean that Russia is a continental power? We do not have cities or military facilities that can be attacked by US EV missiles or aircraft carrier aircraft? And how can corvettes and minesweepers prevent this from happening, for which you stand up in almost every post?
                    4. Vladimir1155
                      Vladimir1155 15 December 2020 20: 47
                      -1
                      Quote: Ivanchester
                      What does it mean that Russia is a continental power? We do not have cities or military facilities that can be attacked by US EM missiles or aircraft carrier aircraft?

                      Russia is a continental power, which means that most of the population and industrial potential is concentrated in the interior of the mainland, washed only by small bodies of water (Baltiysk and the Black Sea) where the effectiveness of the surface fleet is negligible due to the smallness of these water areas and the density of coastal weapons. Cities and military facilities on the oceans can be counted on the fingers of one hand, Murmansk Petropavlovsk, Arkhangelsk and Vladivostok. For their defense, an oceanic fleet is not needed, but a point concentration of coastal air defense systems, coastal aviation and control of the coastal zone is needed. within a radius of 3000 km from the port, easily carried out by coastal aviation and coastal frigates, corvettes and minesweepers.
                    5. Ivanchester
                      Ivanchester 15 December 2020 22: 31
                      +1
                      And what will prevent the enemy from attacking Kaliningrad, Petersburg, Sevastopol, Novorossiysk, Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk or Magadan with missiles if necessary?
                      At the same time, as you understand, they will not even have to enter the Black or Baltic Sea for this, the range allows.
                      And what kind of base aircraft can control the situation 3000 km from the coastline, I wonder?
                    6. Vladimir1155
                      Vladimir1155 16 December 2020 07: 51
                      -1
                      Quote: Ivanchester
                      At the same time, as you understand, they will not even have to enter the Black or Baltic Sea for this, the range allows.

                      here is the proof of the uselessness of many ships in these waters!
                      su 35 Flight range:
                      near the ground (height - 200 m, speed - M = 0,7): 1580 km
                      on high:
                      without PTB: 3600 km
                      with 2 PTB-2000 L: 4500 km
                      Ceiling: 20 000 m
                      Rate of climb: m / s 280
                      Length:
                      takeoff run (full afterburner): 450 m
                      mileage (with normal takeoff weight, braking parachute, use of brakes): 650 m .......
                      Flight characteristics of tu 22
                      Maximum speed:
                      near the ground: 950 km / h [42]
                      at height: 2300 km / h
                      Cruising speed: 930 km / h
                      Takeoff speed with a mass of 124 t: 370 km / h
                      Landing speed with a mass of 78-88 t: 285-305 km / h
                      Ceiling: 13 300 m
                      Flight range: 6800 km ........
                      the 160 will keep quiet
          2. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 15 December 2020 16: 28
            +1
            Quote: vladimir1155
            the decision to accelerate the development of the submarine fleet was a wise decision of Stalin.

            Oh yes ... an extremely wise decision is to develop the submarine fleet, having two countries that won the Battle of the Atlantic as possible opponents. smile
          3. Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 15 December 2020 20: 49
            -1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            extremely wise decision

            I agree that's wise
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 14 December 2020 20: 00
    +3
    Quote: vladimir1155
    In the early days of the Great Patriotic War, due to the rapid advance of German troops along the coast of the Baltic Sea and the Gulf of Finland, the main task of the Baltic Fleet was to participate in the defense of Leningrad and Kronstadt. In particular, located in Kronstadt and Leningrad 2 battleships "Marat" and "October Revolution", 2 light cruisers "Kirov" and "Maxim Gorky", 2 leaders "Leningrad" and "Minsk", 11 destroyers "Experienced", "Strong", Strict "," Steadfast "," Sharp-witted "," Severe "," Glorious "," Guarding "," Fierce "," Threatening "and" Proud ", as well as an unfinished heavy cruiser" Petropavlovsk "were included in the defense system of Leningrad and brought together in the western and eastern groups.

    Judging by the composition of the groups, this is at least September 1941. When the Red Army rolled back to Leningrad, both banks of the Gulf were almost completely at the Finns and Germans, the main base of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet was lost and the entire fleet was forced to withdraw to the only rear base.
    However, even in this situation, KBF EMs went to sea to evacuate Hanko.
    1. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 14 December 2020 21: 50
      -2
      Quote: Alexey RA
      EM KBF went to sea to evacuate Hanko.

      that is, YOU confirmed that everything that is larger than EM (that is, the MPK MRK) turned out to be useless ballast, except of course the submarine
      1. Ivanchester
        Ivanchester 14 December 2020 23: 46
        +1
        No, Vladimir, large ships did not become ballast, they turned into floating batteries and fired thousands of shells at the enemies.
        But tell us what the Baltic Fleet submarines have done?
        1. Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 14 December 2020 23: 53
          -3
          large ships became ballast, pulling air defense assets away from other objects, one battleship was nevertheless bombed right at the pier, and it would be advisable to place their guns on railway platforms even before the war ..... Submarine? Marinesko, Osipov, Gadzhiev and others
          1. Ivanchester
            Ivanchester 15 December 2020 00: 53
            +2
            Can you give an example of armored trains with 12-inch guns?
            I do not know such.
            Large-caliber guns could be placed only in stationary fortifications, which in the same way would require cover by air defense means. But unlike the ships, they were deprived of the opportunity to maneuver, thereby making it difficult for the fascist pilots.

            The submarines were significantly less useful than planned before the war.

            Mainly due to the fact that the Baltic Sea was heavily mined and their exits were extremely dangerous.

            Marinesko drowned "Gustlov" at the very end of the war - this event cannot be called decisive.
            Osipov - sank three transports, in total in / and about 4 tons, which was a big exception against the general background.
            Hajiyev - generally served in the Northern Fleet ...
            1. Vladimir1155
              Vladimir1155 15 December 2020 09: 41
              -1
              Quote: Ivanchester
              Mainly due to the fact that the Baltic Sea was heavily mined and their exits were extremely dangerous.

              an obvious mistake Kuznetsov's concentration on the Baltic Fleet of the entire Navy and the exposure of the Northern Fleet of the Pacific Fleet and the Black Sea Fleet
              1. Ivanchester
                Ivanchester 15 December 2020 10: 40
                +1
                Is it a mistake to concentrate the fleet on the theater, which was supposed to become one of the main ones during the war? smile It was necessary how to distribute the Russian-Japanese fleet?
                Or maybe the mistake was that the army in the very first months of the war left the enemy huge territories with equipped naval bases, and the Luftwaffe dominated the air?
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 15 December 2020 16: 35
                +1
                Quote: vladimir1155
                an obvious mistake Kuznetsov's concentration on the Baltic Fleet of the entire Navy and the exposure of the Northern Fleet of the Pacific Fleet and the Black Sea Fleet

                No money left. Until the end of the 30s, there was no money for the fleet, and then there was not enough time. It was planned to provide a full-fledged basing of large ships on the Northern Fleet only by 1943.
                And before that, the conditions for basing in the GVMB SF were such that half of the EM required repair of boilers. For the only thing the base could provide for the EM was the place where to throw the mooring lines. Electricity, water and steam were not supplied to the ships in the base - the ships in the parking lot had to manage on their own.
                And all this splendor comes ... well, at least 26 bis. How soon will it have to be dragged into the repair?

                And what kind of exposure of the Black Sea Fleet are you talking about? 1 LC, 5 CR, 11 new EVs.
            2. Vladimir1155
              Vladimir1155 15 December 2020 09: 49
              0
              Quote: Ivanchester
              12 inch guns?
              I do not know such.

              and I know I saw it myself, it is still standing at the Baltic station, come see ... http: //zonwar.ru/artileru/rail_guns/280-mm_K5e.html
              1. Ivanchester
                Ivanchester 15 December 2020 10: 41
                0
                And what makes you think that the same could be built in the country of the Soviets? After all, the fact that the Nazis have a Bismarck does not tell us that the same ship could have been built in the Soviet Union ...
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 15 December 2020 16: 43
                  +3
                  Quote: Ivanchester
                  And what makes you think that in the country of the Soviets they could build the same?

                  In real life in the USSR they built:
                  - six installations TM-1-14 - railway AU with a 356-mm gun (legacy of unfinished LKR type "Izmail");
                  - three installations TM-3-12 - railway AU with a 305/52-mm "battleship" gun;
                  - six installations TM-2-12 - railway AU with 305/40-mm guns (spare barrels produced by "Vickers", ordered for the last four of the EBR RIF).
                2. Ivanchester
                  Ivanchester 15 December 2020 17: 36
                  +1
                  Thank you, I didn't know about it.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 15 December 2020 16: 17
      +1
      Quote: vladimir1155
      that is, YOU confirmed that everything that is larger than EM (that is, the MPK MRK) turned out to be useless ballast, except of course the submarine

      Once again: if the NK of the Navy knew that the army would roll back to Leningrad and Sevastopol in the third month of the war, then the construction of the fleet would have proceeded according to a completely different program.
      The "uselessness" of large ships of the fleet was a consequence of the fact that the army in the Baltic left the Red Banner Baltic Fleet for basing only a patch of Kronstadt-Leningrad, and on the Black Sea left the enemy all the bases of the fleet, shipyard and shipyard.
      1. Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 15 December 2020 20: 30
        -1
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Once again: if the NK of the Navy knew that the army would roll back to Leningrad and Sevastopol in the third month of the war, then the construction of the fleet would have proceeded according to a completely different program.

        the main thing is that this situation was repeated three times in a row, in the Russian-Japanese, the First World War, and the Great Patriotic War ... but even now on our forum it is obvious that there are figures (I will not point the finger), but they are these typical stupid urya patriots minus me regularly, they want to repeat the shame of the country for the fourth time. !!!
        It is clear that the military budget is not rubber and that the existence of a useless Kuzi, the plans of super destroyers will inevitably deal a blow to the programs of the nuclear submarines, SU57, S400, A50, BE200 PLO and others.

        Also, the wise ideas of the pre-revolutionary state Duma to limit themselves to minesweepers and submarines in the Baltic, came across Admiral Krylov, who simply intimidated the thought and deceived the people and the tsar and the State Duma, claiming that there was no way without battleships ..., they were not useful in WWII and WWII, but .... because of these battleships, there were not enough field artillery shells ...
        Before Rusko-Japanese, useless battleships were built, which either stood in Port Arthur uselessly throughout the war (as coastal batteries), or shamefully sank in Tsushima, the blame was on the admirals who had pushed the shipbuilding program before the war to the detriment of field artillery, infantry and cavalry that decided the outcome war.
        Firstly, the NK of the Navy (Kuznetsov) must know the situation in the RA, this is his duty, he must work hand in hand with the ground forces, because Russia is a land country and the outcome of the war is ALWAYS decided on land, Russia does not have overseas territories and colonies, its trade is mainly continental. THE MAIN TASK OF THE FLEET All-round support for the actions of the ground forces, at present there is still the task of strategic deterrence through nuclear submarines, the fleet has no other important tasks in wartime.
        The duty of Admiral Kuznetsov personally, as an honest man and a patriot of the country, was to inform Stalin that the available tsarist battleships, due to their condition and the small forces of the ground forces ... it is advisable to cut, battleships, and put the artillery on a railway traction, or on the shore ... he he acted not as a patriot who was sick of the cause, but as a sawmill and an official who cares about his department, his money to the detriment of the country and the people, so did Admiral Krylov and Gorshkov ... their bureaucratic necessity was more important to them, and not the interests of the people .. That is why Stalin was so outraged by the rather impudent program of 358 battleships when the country was in ruin, widows orphans and invalids and hunger (which Kuznetsov could not help but know, even though this was not part of his official duties), and the admiral wants the fleet that recently showed his uselessness in war ... the main enemy of victory is a parquet admiral or a general official, the same manager, but of the last century, they are the first for awards, give him battleships and more, and others are sent to die to submarines on land, Stalin was not like that, Suvorov Ushakov, Nakhimov, Saltykov, Zhukov, Rokossovsky and all of them were rubbed in peacetime by parquet bureaucrats ...
  • Senka naughty
    Senka naughty 12 December 2020 17: 04
    -11%
    The author in his repertoire, a lot of words but zero meaning
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 12 December 2020 18: 35
      -7
      Apparently, the author in the navy has long been lowered to zero, so he scribbles intensively about everything he doesn't like - torpedoes are trying to take revenge.
      1. timokhin-aa
        12 December 2020 22: 09
        0
        In essence, as usual, you have nothing to argue.
      2. Fizik M
        Fizik M 14 December 2020 19: 12
        +2
        Quote: Vadim237
        Apparently, the author in the navy has long been lowered to zero, so he scribbles intensively about everything he doesn't like - torpedoes are trying to take revenge.

        LOST BUNNY Vadim237, you are too quiet scream, your owners will be unhappy
    2. timokhin-aa
      12 December 2020 22: 09
      0
      Better look at the meaning of your comment - that's where the flight of thought is ...
    3. timokhin-aa
      13 December 2020 12: 49
      -2
      This applies to you rather - there are words, there is no sense.
  • Moskal 55
    Moskal 55 12 December 2020 18: 19
    +16
    The article mentions the Puma system, and more than once. Let us remember at least with a kind word the Chief Designer of the Puma system and the director of the Ametist design bureau Nikolai Andreevich Shunaev, as well as the "ideologist" of the radar part of the system, Vasily Petrovich Zorin. Shunaev was fired in 2000. Then Zorin also left. Shunaev died of a heart attack in 2005, Zorin in 2006 ...
    1. timokhin-aa
      12 December 2020 22: 08
      +2
      Let's remember, people did a good job, the radar is very good and accurate, it suits perfectly for its tasks, not for its own, as it turns out it is also suitable, up to the point that it becomes the only means of aiming the air defense system (for which it is not intended, but it does).
      1. frog
        frog 13 December 2020 20: 45
        +1
        It turns out that there are those who disagree with the fact that Puma is quite a working system .... Who would have thought how many practitioners there are ...
  • Reserve buildbat
    Reserve buildbat 12 December 2020 19: 34
    -8
    Clear. "Fsoprapalo, Katz always offered to surrender," and "afftyr" is just trying to pseudo-reasonably defraud the air defense systems of the Russian Navy ships. Looks like a new grant came up, and then on VO already 3-4 days such "spisialists" are raving. And the "afftyryu" cannot come to an empty head that 1 target can be operated not only by the air defense complex of 1 ship, but by the entire air defense system of the squadron. It's just that the settings for the means of destruction are given such that no one physically knocks down the target. Saving money, it's called.
    1. timokhin-aa
      12 December 2020 22: 07
      -3
      Stop talking nonsense, go sleep it off.
      1. Reserve buildbat
        Reserve buildbat 12 December 2020 22: 09
        -4
        Quite right) This is what I wanted to recommend to you. There are a lot of such "experts" as any "coaches" on the Internet. Stop pouring your bullshit onto the site. Already disgusting.
        1. timokhin-aa
          13 December 2020 12: 49
          +2
          The article was written by a person who participated in the development of various weapons systems for the Navy, with experience in the Navy. What armored car are you pouring from?
          1. Salty
            Salty 13 December 2020 13: 08
            -2
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            The article was written by a person who participated in the development of various weapons systems for the Navy, with experience in the Navy ...

            ... and now widely known as an alarmist and internet bully. Challenge.

            Incidentally, the quality of an expert is verified by the number of predictions that come trueissued by this expert. And nothing else. If you want - also challenge.

            And so, by this criterion the quality of this "expert" is below the plinth, in my memory - not a single correct prediction has happened from him yet. Correct if I am mistaken request
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 15 December 2020 02: 30
              0
              Quote: SaltY
              internet bully. Challenge.

              internet sofa here YOU
              and YOU are NOBODY and to call YOU in any way would tell YOU about real affairs
              Quote: SaltY
              So, according to this criterion, the quality of this "expert" is below the plinth, in my memory - not a single correct prediction has happened from him yet. Correct if I am mistaken

              The orderlies will correct YOU
              and I am so, slightly with a face on the table YOU
              https://mina030.livejournal.com/19061.html
              1. Salty
                Salty 15 December 2020 03: 00
                -5
                Quote: Fizik M
                AKA "Mina"

                So far you have only confirmed what I have written. If you like it - yes please ... assert yourself request

                The only funny thing is that the administration is very gentle, I would say, refers to your outright rudeness. As for me, it is even too gentle.
          2. lopvlad
            lopvlad 13 December 2020 20: 15
            -2
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            The article was written by a person who participated in the development of various weapons systems for the Navy, with experience in the Navy.


            in your opinion, it should apparently follow from this that such a person can conclude that the air defense of the ship is dead by video-cutting of tests from the media.

            "Target shot down?" (large and relatively high-flying "tag") "Sign the ship's acceptance certificate"! "There won't be a war" ... Maybe "there won't be" ...


            and you, for example, put a signature if you know that for it you are guaranteed to get a criminal sentence of several decades, and in wartime they are guaranteed to be put up against the wall? .I think no.
            1. Fizik M
              Fizik M 15 December 2020 02: 33
              +1
              Quote: lopvlad
              in your opinion, it should apparently follow from this that such a person can conclude that the air defense of the ship is dead by video-cutting of tests from the media.

              you don't have to be a developer to understand this
              there is enough of an intelligent graduate of the Soviet school
              information for this in the video is enough
              Quote: lopvlad
              and you, for example, put a signature if you know that for it you are guaranteed to get a criminal sentence of several decades, and in wartime they are guaranteed to be put up against the wall? .I think no.

              fool
              Where are you writing this nonsense from? from the "land of the pink ponies"?
        2. Fizik M
          Fizik M 15 December 2020 02: 26
          0
          Quote: Stroibat stock
          Quite right) This is what I wanted to recommend to you. There are a lot of such "experts" as any "coaches" on the Internet. Stop pouring your bullshit onto the site. Already disgusting.

          What tree of tears are you from, miracle? lol
    2. cmax
      cmax 13 December 2020 14: 24
      -1
      Quote: stock buildbat
      Clear. "Fsoprapalo, Katz always offered to surrender," and "afftyr" is just trying to pseudo-reasonably defraud the air defense systems of the Russian Navy ships. Looks like a new grant came up, and then on VO already 3-4 days such "spisialists" are raving. And the "afftyryu" cannot come to an empty head that 1 target can be operated not only by the air defense complex of 1 ship, but by the entire air defense system of the squadron. It's just that the settings for the means of destruction are given such that no one physically knocks down the target. Saving money, it's called.

      You really have nonsense. Enchanting!!!
    3. Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 13 December 2020 19: 51
      0
      Quote: Stroibat stock
      all air defense squadrons

      although I consistently argue with Timokhin, but here he is right, like the Physicist, what mythical squadron are you writing about? it is not and will not be, ... where did this idea come from? AV center AUG ... but needs to be covered with corvettes ... the corvette has no air defense, but it will be covered by a squadron ..... so who is this wunderwaffe squadron? lonely cruiser with one RIF FORT? not too much this FORT should cover both corvettes and AB alone? and the minesweepers will also be guarded by the same lone cruiser? the more there was information about the fort that it was totally unworkable, like the air defense of the corvette ..... ". the corvette nods at Peter, and Peter at Ivan", but they are all unable to do anything
    4. Fizik M
      Fizik M 14 December 2020 19: 14
      +2
      Quote: Stroibat stock
      "spicialists" are raving. And the "afftyryu" cannot come to an empty head that 1 target can work not only with the air defense complex of 1 ship, but the entire air defense system of the squadron. It's just that the settings of the means of destruction are given such that no one physically knocks down the target. Saving money, it's called.

      YOU are at the wrong address, YOU are with "this" wassat to a narcologist lol
  • Bradley
    Bradley 12 December 2020 22: 09
    +2
    The Navy has nothing like the Chukar mass target of the US Navy, and most importantly, it is not necessary (for there is only one concern).

    The author, please explain, otherwise I just did not understand what it was about.
    1. Kuz
      Kuz 12 December 2020 23: 58
      +19
      The point is that the Navy does not have a target that mimics relatively fresh anti-ship missiles. And if it was, the tests of the air defense system would often be a failure. About the non-combat ability of ships would have to report to the Supreme
      1. Bradley
        Bradley 13 December 2020 13: 09
        +2
        The point is that the Navy does not have a target that mimics relatively fresh anti-ship missiles. And if it was, the tests of the air defense system would often be a failure. About the non-combat ability of ships would have to report to the Supreme

        Yeah, now I understand. Thanks!

        But the amersky "Chukar" is also a pensioner, albeit modernized, but produced since the late 60s.
        It would not be bad if comrade Timokhin compared the same "Chukar" with our targets.
  • flicker
    flicker 13 December 2020 01: 26
    0
    Yes, and extremely inconvenient facts of the "leakage" of our air defense "umbrella" can be revealed.

    How much we would like our fleet to have an "air defense umbrella" with holes in it. laughing
    ---
    Sooner or later, the attack will always win over the defense.
    ---
    Well, in general, the term "leaky" is very much suited to the description of the Israeli "iron dome".
    Well, if there is something "full of holes" it is an "iron dome", which even with handicraft casams cannot cope.
    bully
  • Romario_R
    Romario_R 13 December 2020 10: 35
    +5
    I'm not a sailor, I'm a rocket engineer. The marine theme is not my profile. But it seems to me that the author of this negative analysis "sucked it out of hand".
    1. iouris
      iouris 13 December 2020 11: 01
      -1
      What if the author is an optimist? After all, one person cannot realize the full depth of our depths.
  • TatarinSSSR
    TatarinSSSR 13 December 2020 11: 20
    +3
    To be honest, the author is specifically distorting. In fact - the journalists set up nonsense, the author did not believe it, and clung to it. Inflated the topic and got to the bottom of nonsense. The fleet has problems, there are many of them, but the one described by the author is not at all the one for which one should be so nervous.
    1. timokhin-aa
      13 December 2020 12: 47
      0
      No, you're wrong - dead air defense on the latest ship with a super-expensive radar system is not nonsense.
      1. TatarinSSSR
        TatarinSSSR 13 December 2020 14: 00
        -2
        This "newest ship" does not go in the AUG order and does not break through to Tartus alone. Its task in our time without money for the army is to walk near its shores under the umbrella of its air defense and aviation and whip up horror on its evil neighbors, such as Ukraine and Georgia. There will be time, money and the will of the new leader - there will be modernization. Maybe it won't. So far, and so it seems.
        1. Fizik M
          Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 04
          +1
          Quote: TatarinSSSR
          This "newest ship" does not go in the AUG order and does not break through to Tartus alone

          by the fact that we have it fatal even a salvo of ancient "Exocets" from some "Dioscuria"
        2. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 14 December 2020 20: 26
          +3
          Quote: TatarinSSSR
          This "newest ship" does not go in the AUG order and does not break through to Tartus alone. Its task in our time without money for the army is to walk near its shores under the umbrella of its air defense and aviation and whip up horror on its evil neighbors, such as Ukraine and Georgia.

          Well, the evil ones dreamed that the corvette had violated their terrorist acts. And they, puffed up or having received an assignment from the curators, fired from the shore X-35 "Neptune". Or NSM - for example, as part of full-scale testing of products from the Norwegian military-industrial complex for a real purpose. What we are going to do? Express concern?
          Now even the Houthis have got the RCC.
          1. TatarinSSSR
            TatarinSSSR 14 December 2020 22: 37
            -1
            Exactly. Our Foreign Ministry protects the country with concerns, and you scoff at their exploits. Thousands and thousands of concerns have fallen bravely in a couple of years, defending Russia's interests.
  • Ryusey
    Ryusey 13 December 2020 17: 52
    -3
    It will be, it will be, and we will wash ourselves with our blood, one weak consolation that these scum and their families will also die.
  • K298rtm
    K298rtm 13 December 2020 23: 10
    +2
    After reading the article, I remembered what my senior colleague said about the naval air defense: .... ship air defense is like a girl's hair in a certain place - they cover, but not protect. Nothing changes in our world, except for the financial well-being of specially designated citizens.
  • volga7777777777
    volga7777777777 14 December 2020 08: 45
    0
    I am very surprised at some of the comments. They give the impression that we have absolutely inadequate people: in the General Staff, in the headquarters of the Navy, arms manufacturers, representatives of the ROC.
    Normal and adequate some direct operators in units that are preparing to go into battle on inadequate equipment.
    At least everything is very strange.
    1. Fizik M
      Fizik M 14 December 2020 18: 03
      +3
      Quote: volga7777777777
      They give the impression that we have absolutely inadequate people: in the General Staff, the headquarters of the Navy,

      the Navy now has 11 SSBNs (at the Pacific Fleet and Northern Fleet)
      and NONE of the modern PMK at the Pacific Fleet and Northern Fleet
      moreover, not even the old minesweepers have ANY anti-mine UOA
      this is to the question of "adequacy"
    2. Evgeny Ivanov_5
      Evgeny Ivanov_5 16 December 2020 08: 23
      +2
      But why. They cut the budget very adequately