Military Review

"Copying failed": on the causes of China's problems with aircraft engines

112
"Copying failed": on the causes of China's problems with aircraft engines

Back in 2018, the US authorities announced a colossal special operation to hack computer networks of 13 global manufacturers aviation and space technology around the world, and above all in the United States itself. According to the Americans, both military intelligence officers of the PRC and representatives of local companies of the corresponding profile took part in this hacker attack on an unprecedented scale. Beijing, of course, denied everything in the most resolute way, but the "sediment", as they say, remained.


It consisted, first of all, in the fact that one of the firms that became the subject of increased interest from cyber hackers was CFM International, a joint venture of the American giant General Electric and the French concern Safran. Meanwhile, it is this company that is engaged in the most important business for the Celestial Empire - the design and creation of LEAP-1C turbojet engines for the most promising Chinese airliner C919, which, according to the plan of its creators, will have to become a successful competitor for such machines as Airbus A320neo and LEAP-1B for Boeing. -737MAX.

The new aircraft's "flame engine" is planned to be equipped with incredibly innovative features such as, for example, the 3-blade carbon fiber propeller made of carbon fiber material with honeycomb rubber core, made using 18D WRTM technology, which significantly increases the aircraft's flight characteristics. Also, its "highlight" should be a two-ring combustion chamber, an improved cooling system and other points.

Interestingly, in the Middle Kingdom it was previously planned to create its own engines for the C919 - CJ-1000A and CJ-1000V. The first, in theory, was supposed to go for certification in 2022, the second - a year or two later. It was planned to launch these engines "into series" no later than 2025-2026. Nevertheless, so far there is no rumor or spirit about any significant successes of the Chinese aircraft manufacturers. Doesn't this explain someone's desire to dig into CFM International computers?

It should be noted that having accumulated tremendous experience in reproducing with a high degree of accuracy any mechanisms and electronic devices - from wristwatches, tape recorders and computers to fighters and aircraft carriers, the Chinese comrades decided to follow the same usual path in the construction of aircraft engines. However, this time the number did not work.

Today, in fact, several countries in the world can create such high-tech products of a modern level, which, without exaggeration, have centuries of experience in this matter, and, most importantly, an appropriate scientific and production base. USA, Britain, France, Russia. Perhaps Japan and Germany could "compete" with them, but there such things came under a strict ban after the Second World War.

It turned out to be almost impossible to create a "clone" of the engine that you liked - the slightest deviation in technological processes or applied materials nullified all efforts and tricks. Here are some specific examples. Thinking about creating their own fighters, back in the 80s of the last century in the Celestial Empire, they "aimed" at the American F-404-GE-402 and F-404-GE-F1D2, produced by General Electric for F / A-18 and F fighters -117A Nighthawk.

However, upon a thoughtful study of the issue, the Chinese comrades came to the conclusion that, with all their desire, they would not be able to repeat them in the quality that would ensure the reliable and safe operation of combat aircraft. Copying failed.

Subsequently, relations between the United States and China finally deteriorated, and there was no talk of any military-technical cooperation. Then Beijing promptly "switched" to the Russian military-industrial complex - naturally, without abandoning its intentions to "borrow" technologies.

Here the business has advanced more successfully - domestic products are less complex and whimsical, but more reliable than American ones. Yielding to them in some technical parameters, they are often less "demanding" in terms of manufacturing and operation. However, with our RD-93, which became the "hearts" of the new fighters of the PLA Air Force, everything also turned out to be far from as simple as expected. Yes, in the end we managed to copy them under the WS-13E brand (Taishan-21). However, it did not work to repeat exactly the alloys that are used in Russia to create engine compressor blades and allow it to work stably at colossal fuel combustion temperatures.

However, the Chinese craftsmen found a way out - they applied special ceramic compounds to the working surfaces of the engine, which instantly increased the heat resistance and extended its service life to 2200 hours. True, it took more than one year to complete everything, but today, for example, the Pakistani Air Force is already purchasing Chinese JF-17 fighters, equipped with just WS-13E. However, this engine is no longer enough for promising J-20 fighters. Flies in Russian ...

Today in China, work is underway on the WS-15, however, as far as is known, it has not yet been possible to achieve stability from it. What can you do - for all their persistence, the local comrades have not yet learned how to create flame tubes and gas turbines at the proper level. So it turns out that, for example, the only real engine capable of lifting such PLA Air Force machines into the sky as the Y-20 military transport board and the N-6 long-range bomber is the Russian D-30KP2, which is, in fact, the development of the Soviet The military-industrial complex of the 60s - 70s of the last century. The Celestial Empire set out to create a worthy replacement for it - the W-20 turbofan engine. To do this, they are planning ... Yes, that's right - to copy the next product of the American General Electric as carefully as possible.

According to experts, despite all their current successes in the field of industry and science, the ability to demonstrate truly explosive growth in these areas, as well as a true talent in mastering new technologies, Chinese aircraft manufacturers cannot yet reproduce even Soviet aircraft engines at the proper level. However, taking into account the forces and means that the PRC are "thrown" into this industry, it is quite possible that here too it is not so long to wait for a "breakthrough".
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  1. Svarog
    Svarog 10 December 2020 14: 45
    +11
    According to experts, despite all their current successes in the field of industry and science, the ability to demonstrate truly explosive growth in these areas, as well as a true talent in mastering new technologies, Chinese aircraft manufacturers cannot yet reproduce even Soviet aircraft engines at the proper level.

    This is so far .. I think that it is not long left, China is developing rapidly. What can not be said about us.
    And the USSR left a serious touch .. but it ends.
    1. Mavrikiy
      Mavrikiy 10 December 2020 15: 13
      +9
      Quote: Svarog
      what is not long left, China is developing rapidly.

      hi Think again. repeat There is "development" of production volumes, but there is no design school and will not be. They know how to copy, but not invent. request
      1. paul3390
        paul3390 10 December 2020 15: 36
        +45
        In the USSR, design schools also did not fall from the ceiling .. Everyone started with copying or licensing bourgeois samples .. And gradually they gained experience ..
        1. lopvlad
          lopvlad 11 December 2020 20: 05
          +11
          Quote: paul3390
          In the USSR, design schools also fell from the ceiling.


          any design school should be based on the level of fundamental science of the state. The USSR was formed not in the place of the state where everyone ran with sticks and worshiped the sun and wind, but in the place of the Russian Empire with its deep fundamental science. There might not be a separate branch of production, but fundamental science in this direction was.
          And to compare the rate of development of technological progress now and then it is like comparing the flow of a swamp and the flow of a turbulent mountain river.
      2. Svarog
        Svarog 10 December 2020 16: 15
        +5
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        Quote: Svarog
        what is not long left, China is developing rapidly.

        hi Think again. repeat There is "development" of production volumes, but there is no design school and will not be. They know how to copy, but not invent. request

        Think again

        Think about it. They will buy several schools, including ours, as long as our engineers receive 25 tons.
        1. Kart
          Kart 10 December 2020 16: 59
          -3
          Is it all gone again?
          Well it is!
          1. lis-ik
            lis-ik 10 December 2020 17: 24
            +13
            Quote: Carte
            Is it all gone again?
            Well it is!

            Why are we going to grow?
        2. sgrabik
          sgrabik 11 December 2020 12: 36
          +7
          Not always and not everything is for sale, no need to judge by yourself, state. secret and secret projects have not been canceled, there is such a thing as national security, which includes classified information of defense significance !!!
        3. Stas157
          Stas157 11 December 2020 16: 10
          +3
          ... "Compete" with them, maybe they could Japan and Germany, but there such things fell under a strict ban

          Perhaps you could ?? Yes, they would have a better engine if not for the ban. Just like cars.
      3. polar fox
        polar fox 10 December 2020 16: 26
        +11
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        They know how to copy, but not invent.

        so they don't know how. they invite specialists and they PAY ... as with pilots, for example.
        1. sgrabik
          sgrabik 11 December 2020 14: 02
          +3
          These are completely different things and it is simply ridiculous to compare them, pilots belong to the international labor market, and scientific and engineering-technical workers related to the military-industrial complex are a piece product, besides, they are classified as secrets !!!
      4. Alexander 3
        Alexander 3 10 December 2020 16: 32
        +12
        If we in Russia leave the approach to education as it is now, then everything will be bad for us. The crossword must be removed.
        1. Kart
          Kart 10 December 2020 17: 00
          0
          How.
          And here they explained to us that everything is already bad with us.
          It turns out not?
          1. MrFox
            MrFox 11 December 2020 09: 16
            +1
            It turns out not - it was not bad in the USSR
            1. meandr51
              meandr51 11 December 2020 14: 12
              +2
              Well, now, again they did not agree on where is worse ...
      5. Starover_Z
        Starover_Z 10 December 2020 18: 25
        +3
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        They know how to copy, but not invent.

        So far, some things turn out almost like old man Hottabych's phone:

        But collecting technology around the world, the Chinese will learn information someday.
        1. lopvlad
          lopvlad 11 December 2020 20: 13
          +2
          Quote: Starover_Z
          But collecting technology around the world


          Who will give them modern technologies? It's not electronics to copy when a microcircuit can be cut off in layers under a microscope and its electronic connections can be sketched.
      6. Cosm22
        Cosm22 10 December 2020 18: 29
        +9
        "They know how to copy, but not invent."
        Not tired of repeating hackneyed phrases?
        Yes, you at least compare the development of astronautics in China and in Russia. Maybe at least something will become clear.
        Understand the possibilities of Chinese shipbuilding.
        Whose car is China copying? Could it be Lada Kalina?
        Whose smartphones is China copying?
        China has its own "Silicon Valley" in Haidian, which attracts masses of graduates of the training course of Chinese young specialists in the USA and Japan. So much for the footage. Young, purposeful, literate. Haidian will not die out, like Skolkovo, which is generally incomprehensible what it was doing.
        When will we finally understand that it is impossible to sit on the Soviet legacy forever? That you need to start doing something yourself?
        How do China and the United States do it?
        Give China at most 8-10 years (during which it is unlikely that anything will happen in Russia), and there will be no need to talk about it in a dismissive tone. It may happen that someone else will copy. Only Chinese products.
        1. EvilLion
          EvilLion 11 December 2020 08: 56
          +8
          And what to compare? That China is repeating what the world was doing half a century ago?

          As for aircraft engines, the USSR lagged behind the USA in terms of them in 1945, so there is nothing to compare. Then there were tens of years of development, and most importantly, the production of aircraft in tens of thousands. As a result, by the mid-80s, that is, 40 years later, the USSR finally made the AL-31F, which already looks shameful against the American background, and then after a few years the Americans rolled out the engine much better.

          China simply does not have the ability to invest in aircraft engines and serial production of aircraft as much as it was done in the USSR. So the tales about the fact that for a couple of years China will refuse to import motors have remained tales for 20 years already. Half of the population in China still lives in the villages, it has no time for Soviet-scale armies.

          Well, the Chinese society itself, and indeed the East Asian society in general, is fundamentally built so that everyone walks and thinks in formation. Not like in the USSR, where at the end of its existence they carried political nonsense, but society itself. Asians can dig well and amicably, but invent, or, for example, program ... They can't even make a computer game to make it interesting for a white person. Industrial Chinese software is just something that doesn't exist.

          Well, the now ridiculed Chinese socio-political marasmus, which the United States must obey if they want to enter the Chinese market, does not help matters either.
        2. BastaKarapuzik And
          BastaKarapuzik And 11 December 2020 10: 15
          +11
          China flooded the world with fakes, and in general lowered the bar for technical requirements. This is a banal theft, instead of pure copper, put an alloy, instead of new raw materials, processing. And so with them in everything. They say China is developing, and their technique is improving, but in reality the Chinese printer is churning out hack. The fact that there is also a better technique is just a calculation for a more solvent consumer, but the factories riveting outright trash have not gone anywhere. Isn't this the reason that China is still failing in areas where nothing can be stolen?
          If the USSR allowed itself this in its years, it would have been branded with indelible shame.
        3. meandr51
          meandr51 11 December 2020 14: 14
          +2
          It's easier to learn Chinese ...
        4. tolmachiev51
          tolmachiev51 12 December 2020 03: 48
          +2
          here you are wrong! -Remember the "rise" of Japan and industrial espionage on what scale !? Asians know how to "steal" and to their advantage.
      7. Obi-Wan Kenobi
        Obi-Wan Kenobi 11 December 2020 07: 02
        0
        There is "development" of production volumes, but there is no design school and will not be. They know how to copy, but not invent.

        Are you talking about Chinese lunar programs and space exploration?
        Are you designing all this for them?
      8. RUSS
        RUSS 11 December 2020 08: 01
        +1
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        there is no design school and never will be.

        Once upon a time we did not have it either.
      9. Pilat2009
        Pilat2009 11 December 2020 09: 56
        -1
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        Quote: Svarog
        what is not long left, China is developing rapidly.

        hi Think again. repeat There is "development" of production volumes, but there is no design school and will not be. They know how to copy, but not invent. request

        What cardinally breakthrough have Russian design schools come up with?
        1. lucul
          lucul 11 December 2020 19: 02
          +3
          What cardinally breakthrough have Russian design schools come up with?

          "On new physical principles", ROFAR, isn't it? )))))
          1. Pilat2009
            Pilat2009 11 December 2020 22: 43
            -3
            Quote: lucul
            What cardinally breakthrough have Russian design schools come up with?

            "On new physical principles", ROFAR, isn't it? )))))

            Are you sure that this is not the Soviet groundwork?
            From the book Radio-optical antenna arrays of Voskresensky D.I. (Year of publication: 1986): “Methods for the formation of spatial directivity characteristics of receiving antenna arrays (AR) of arbitrary shape using the means of coherent optics and holography are described. Coherent optical processors AR are considered. with different functionalities, the results of experimental studies are presented. For engineers and technicians specializing in optical information processing, antenna technology, radio and sonar ”. Radio-optical antenna arrays / Voskresensky, D.I .; Grinev, A. Yu. ; Voronin, E.N. Place of publication: Moscow: Radio and communication Year of publication: 1986
            1. lucul
              lucul 12 December 2020 11: 11
              0
              Are you sure that this is not the Soviet groundwork?

              Well, with this logic, we can say that all cars in the world use the ground of the first Benz car, and all pistols use the ground of a Colt pistol)))
      10. Vladimir247
        Vladimir247 13 December 2020 00: 04
        -1
        They know how to invent. If people work, and work involves mental activity, then inevitably they will learn to do themselves. What we see in China with our own eyes.
        To create, for example, an aircraft carrier is not a hukhry-muhry. And the school is already its own, design, and so on. And they are already collecting the fourth.
        And we have "Kuznetsov" ... for fun, with generic engine problems.
      11. Ingvar 72
        Ingvar 72 13 December 2020 17: 39
        +1
        Quote: Mavrikiy
        there is no design school and will not be

        I would not promise. Especially considering that the share of China's investments in science and research is ten times greater than ours.
    2. sgrabik
      sgrabik 10 December 2020 16: 00
      +3
      Not everyone is able to create modern aircraft engines from scratch and the availability of money does not play a decisive role here, a lot of experience and a design school are needed, which China does not have and is not expected in the near future, it turns out that not everything can be stolen and copied !!!
    3. lis-ik
      lis-ik 10 December 2020 17: 23
      +5
      Quote: Svarog
      According to experts, despite all their current successes in the field of industry and science, the ability to demonstrate truly explosive growth in these areas, as well as a true talent in mastering new technologies, Chinese aircraft manufacturers cannot yet reproduce even Soviet aircraft engines at the proper level.

      This is so far .. I think that it is not long left, China is developing rapidly. What can not be said about us.
      And the USSR left a serious touch .. but it ends.

      It's already over. It is not for nothing that inherently ridiculous "wunderwaffe" went into action.
    4. Konnick
      Konnick 10 December 2020 19: 51
      +8
      Earlier, the Sickle and Molot plant made special melting using the vacuum remelting process, this metal was used in the aviation industry, now there is no plant, now there are offices on the territory. I don’t know if our manufacturers are faced with a shortage of highly pure alloys or not. But it takes a long time to learn how to make such alloys, perhaps China still does not know how.
    5. Obi-Wan Kenobi
      Obi-Wan Kenobi 11 December 2020 07: 00
      +1
      This is so far .. I think that it is not long left, China is developing rapidly. What can not be said about us.

      Exactly.
      The key word in the entire article is "not yet"!
      When we can, it will be a lot of fun.
    6. FRoman1984
      FRoman1984 11 December 2020 09: 05
      +3
      Quote: Svarog
      According to experts, despite all their current successes in the field of industry and science, the ability to demonstrate truly explosive growth in these areas, as well as a true talent in mastering new technologies, Chinese aircraft manufacturers cannot yet reproduce even Soviet aircraft engines at the proper level.

      This is so far .. I think that it is not long left, China is developing rapidly. What can not be said about us.
      And the USSR left a serious touch .. but it ends.

      Collecting iPhones and engines is not the same thing. They have no school of engine building. So they steal (try) everything around the world.
      Now a witch hunt in the United States is going on (hunting for Chinese, Chinese Americans) in terms of identifying workers associated with their intelligence and companies. There, this topic repeatedly comes up on the front pages after the capture of another spy.
  2. The comment was deleted.
  3. Uncle lee
    Uncle lee 10 December 2020 14: 50
    +3
    "Copy failed"
    It claims that an abstract monkey, striking randomly on the keys of a typewriter for an unlimited time, will sooner or later type any given text in advance.
    1. Black_PR
      Black_PR 10 December 2020 15: 02
      +3
      "Quiet Don".
      1. Uncle lee
        Uncle lee 10 December 2020 15: 04
        +4
        Virgin Soil Upturned
        1. qQQQ
          qQQQ 10 December 2020 15: 09
          +2
          It is necessary to set more global goals - "War and Peace".
          1. Uncle lee
            Uncle lee 10 December 2020 15: 11
            +6
            Quote: qqqq
            global goals

            Little time has been released - only two million years ... sad
            1. Kart
              Kart 10 December 2020 16: 33
              -2
              They have 1.5 billion people.
              In man-hours, the term is much shorter.
              But they do not have this term either.
          2. Captain Pushkin
            Captain Pushkin 10 December 2020 20: 49
            +1
            The original source was about the Great British Encyclopedia, and without a single mistake ...
    2. kulinar
      kulinar 11 December 2020 13: 39
      +1
      Quote: Uncle Lee
      "Copy failed"
      It claims that an abstract monkey, striking randomly on the keys of a typewriter for an unlimited time, will sooner or later type any given text in advance.

      The advent of the internet disproved this theory .... laughing
  4. Mavrikiy
    Mavrikiy 10 December 2020 15: 08
    +6
    "Copying failed": on the causes of China's problems with aircraft engines
    Yes, guys, cutting paper patterns (the national sport of the PRC) is cool. It takes a lot of taste and time. Copy the aircraft engine, here an abyss of oil is required fool... And the purchased advisers from the Square will not help. request
    1. Cympak
      Cympak 11 December 2020 03: 45
      +2
      They do not want to buy individual specialists in Ukraine, the Chinese want to buy the entire plant with technological lines and the very "Soviet" school on the cheap. Only the Americans took control of this process in time. Another "incredible success" of Chinese industry failed
      1. alekszeit
        alekszeit 11 December 2020 18: 45
        -1
        nothing came off. China has built two cities with factories for specialists, one for motor sich, the second for Antonov. do you think there were no specialists to go there? I constantly hear from friends and acquaintances that their children have left to work behind the cordon and not to pick strawberries. For some reason, a lot from Korolev. Yes, my closest relative has been working in a cool American firm not in an ordinary position for many years. And in Russia he was fucking unnecessary.
        1. A_L_F
          A_L_F 13 December 2020 01: 44
          0
          I can imagine what these "specialists" from the Square will do: we received the drawings from there, we sorted it out for 2 months, they twisted it there, we are still kidding, they still managed to make engines.
          1. alekszeit
            alekszeit 13 December 2020 11: 41
            0
            you would, as here brag, the same engines did. But so far nothing.
  5. Ru_Na
    Ru_Na 10 December 2020 15: 21
    +2
    Copying won't get you far! The PRC needs to build, test and put into series its own engine, work out the technology, create its own scientific base, the school of personnel and materials science!
    1. Mavrikiy
      Mavrikiy 10 December 2020 15: 40
      0
      They do not need this, they hope to spit samples through the neighbors' fence in 100 years. They are the navel of the Earth (which one? what )
  6. Galleon
    Galleon 10 December 2020 15: 38
    +12
    I would correct the title: Copying has failed YET.
    1. Kart
      Kart 10 December 2020 16: 35
      -2
      All you need to do is add an LED flashlight and an FM radio, and everything will work right away.
  7. Airdefense
    Airdefense 10 December 2020 15: 42
    +4
    This is understandable, copying does not work in aviation, it takes years to build a school, an industry (from materials integration, tests of TsAGI and with them, etc.), as the USSR, Brazil, USA, England did, but you can screw up quickly with an example Ukraine.
    1. Constanty
      Constanty 10 December 2020 17: 07
      +5
      This is understandable, copying does not work in aviation.


      Look at Boeing B-29 and Tupolev Tu-4 laughing
      1. Airdefense
        Airdefense 10 December 2020 19: 23
        +5
        Only a small nuance of the USSR by this time had a developed aviation industry and produced a wide range of various aircraft.
        1. Constanty
          Constanty 10 December 2020 19: 59
          +4
          Let it be so - then another example - Avro-504 and Dux U-1 Polikarpova

          Copying foreign developments is not something new for aviation since its inception, including aircraft engines.
          1. Airdefense
            Airdefense 10 December 2020 20: 54
            +3
            I agree that copying or "scratch-and-scratch" is not something new, but nevertheless, for copying you need an appropriate technical background.
            And China does not yet have the relevant competencies (but this is a matter of time), which can be clearly seen on the example of the Chinese “superjet” COMAC ARJ21 Xiangfeng.
            1. Constanty
              Constanty 10 December 2020 22: 54
              +1
              It's not that simple - remember the cases with the Suchoj Superjet or Irkut MC-21. Russia has traditions, industry and competencies, and yet the effects are not as different as COMAC ARJ21 Xiangfeng
              1. Airdefense
                Airdefense 10 December 2020 22: 59
                +4
                Well, Japan and China cannot assemble their Superjet counterparts, although they seemingly follow the same path. Japan completely failed the project, China is still floundering, while the 204 serial Superjet has already flown.

                And what is wrong with the MC-21 is a completely normal aircraft, of course, the sanctions will knock down, all the same, with the Pratt engine, its characteristics were generally good, but let's see how to work out with the PD-14.
                1. Constanty
                  Constanty 10 December 2020 23: 18
                  0
                  And what is wrong with the MC-21 is a completely normal plane, of course the sanctions will knock down, after all, with the Pratt engine, its characteristics were generally good


                  Chinese fighters with P&W engines would do well too, right? yes
                  1. Airdefense
                    Airdefense 10 December 2020 23: 34
                    +2
                    Probably, but Russia can make aircraft engines, China is still in the role of catching up. Moreover, there is a joint project CR929.
                2. Pilat2009
                  Pilat2009 11 December 2020 10: 01
                  -1
                  Quote: Airdefense
                  Well, Japan and China cannot assemble their Superjet counterparts, although they seemingly follow the same path. Japan completely failed the project, China is still floundering, while the 204 serial Superjet has already flown.

                  And what is wrong with the MC-21 is a completely normal aircraft, of course, the sanctions will knock down, all the same, with the Pratt engine, its characteristics were generally good, but let's see how to work out with the PD-14.

                  It would be better to calculate how many superjets are actually operated, and how much they cost, bought voluntarily and compulsorily
                  1. Airdefense
                    Airdefense 11 December 2020 11: 56
                    +5
                    Count, I do not mind? You can calculate how much it costs from A / B now .. And what does it mean voluntarily and forcibly purchased, I will listen with pleasure how to develop the aviation industry
                    Why is it not surprising to anyone that when Brazil decided to develop an airplane, then by order all local airlines bought Embaer planes, or when Airbus got up, it used the same methods, and moreover, Europe allowed South Korean airlines to fly to Europe only after purchasing Airbus planes. Not to mention the fact that in the United States Boeing and Martin have pushed and are pushing hard on their interests.
                    1. Pilat2009
                      Pilat2009 11 December 2020 12: 41
                      -1
                      Quote: Airdefense
                      Count, I do not mind? You can calculate how much it costs from A / B now .. And what does it mean voluntarily and forcibly purchased, I will listen with pleasure how to develop the aviation industry
                      Why is it not surprising to anyone that when Brazil decided to develop an airplane, then by order all local airlines bought Embaer planes, or when Airbus got up, it used the same methods, and moreover, Europe allowed South Korean airlines to fly to Europe only after purchasing Airbus planes. Not to mention the fact that in the United States Boeing and Martin have pushed and are pushing hard on their interests.

                      You can of course push through, but some companies are already getting rid of them. The plane turned out to be so-so. Expensive to operate and maintain.
                      1. Airdefense
                        Airdefense 11 December 2020 12: 44
                        +3
                        Some companies also get rid of A / B aircraft because they are expensive to operate, and at the same time they continue to operate the Superjet (like a Mexican airline), and if we discard the husk of media scammers, then in general the airlines have problems.
                        For me, Superjet is a successful project in the Russian aviation industry, which can give impetus to further development.
                      2. Constanty
                        Constanty 11 December 2020 19: 14
                        +1
                        But I completely agree that the development of aircraft design in Russia is the right way and the Superjet, Tu-204, etc. are the right way - the way to success. Only sometimes the problem is that in China - in the absence of engines or in the fact that their own domestic engines are not as efficient, efficient and economical as foreign ones. It would be a mistake to give up - and this is what Russia is doing in the field of passenger aircraft, and China in the field of combat aircraft is the right path - the path to its products. Russia has vast experience, technology and potential; China has resources and determination. This is the past and both countries will achieve their goals.
    2. faiver
      faiver 10 December 2020 20: 32
      0
      Yes, and the Tu-4 flew over shorter distances ... hi
      1. Constanty
        Constanty 10 December 2020 20: 49
        +2
        But, despite this, it was the best Soviet bomber of the time.

        This means that copying made sense - both direct and indirect, as the study of new solutions, technologies, etc.
        China has been copying aircraft for years - for example, the Tu-16 as the H-6, they develop their capabilities and industry faster and faster, and sooner or later they will reach a level that allows them to copy the Al-41 or American engines - maybe , the parameters will not be the same right away (since in the case of the B-29 - Tu-4 pair), but I have no doubt that they are catching up. They are decisive, hardworking and have enormous resources - both for intelligence and espionage, and for buying up specialists.
    3. alekszeit
      alekszeit 11 December 2020 18: 48
      0
      looked, the carcass was inferior to Boeing in all respects
  • steelmaker
    steelmaker 10 December 2020 15: 53
    +6
    China began to copy from the 70s. During this time, it was possible to create institutions, factories, and raise our own personnel. Let it be slow, but there is movement forward. And this article is rather a confirmation that the USSR was a great state and China is striving to surpass the USSR. And "if you suffer for a long time, then something will turn out."
    1. Kart
      Kart 10 December 2020 16: 48
      -3
      70s of what century?
      It is believed that the so-called. the achievements of the Chinese are generally nothing but late copying.
  • Sahalinets
    Sahalinets 10 December 2020 16: 23
    +6
    It's not even funny about the greater reliability of our engines. The author would ask about the resource of American and our engines. There is a difference at times!
    1. Bobrick
      Bobrick 11 December 2020 08: 58
      +1
      Already more than once for a long time in engines of the same purpose, firstly.
      Secondly and most importantly, the resource is determined from the wishes of the customer, and there is already a problem in our Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, which still sets requirements for aircraft in the event of World War III (how long the plane will live there - 3-50 flights maximum with an excellent situation on fronts, or 100 will not live at all - if a full arctic fox), and not to peacekeeping bombing with a low risk to the aircraft.
  • Mikhail S.
    Mikhail S. 10 December 2020 16: 27
    +5
    Soviet microcircuits had American ANALOGUES. But the American ones appeared before. ... Copying was carried out at the state level. He was holding in his hands freshly baked microwave transistors, even without marking. Also ANALOGUES of American ones.
    It is possible to copy, but at the same time it is necessary to strive to reduce the backlog every year.
  • Mikhail S.
    Mikhail S. 10 December 2020 16: 36
    +2
    Household too. In semiconductor TVs of the 80s, microcircuits are ANALOGUES of Phillips.
    1. Kart
      Kart 10 December 2020 16: 49
      0
      Yes, analogs. Only 70s.
      Any copying is a lag.
  • Operator
    Operator 10 December 2020 18: 18
    +1
    At the moment, it is not specific samples of technology that are already transferred to the hands of foreign buyers that are important, but critical technologies that are a true secret and should not be transferred to anyone. In this connection, these technologies, with all desire, cannot be copied, but it is required to develop from scratch.

    In fairness, the composition of new heat-resistant alloys for turbojet engine blades is fully calculated from the results of spectral analysis of the blade material. But nobody is going to sell the technology of directional crystallization of blades in the process of their manufacture to the same Chinese.

    The further, the more the process of classifying technologies, incl. in civilian industries will only grow.
    1. Bobrick
      Bobrick 11 December 2020 09: 19
      +1
      In fairness, the composition of new heat-resistant alloys for turbojet engine blades is fully calculated from the results of spectral analysis of the blade material.


      Not everything is so simple in fact - only the final composition can be determined.
      How much of what was added in reality is completely unclear - some metals oxidize a little faster, some accumulate mainly on the surface in the form of slag, the composition of the original ligatures, etc. etc.
      In short, even copying an alloy is a long and complex process, and without an absolute guarantee of success, and you also need to take into account that modern samples contain such sophisticated and rare components that you can get it literally in a small number of places on the planet (rhenium, for example).

      But nobody is going to sell the technology of directional crystallization of blades in the process of their manufacture to the same Chinese.


      This technology can also be quite successfully mastered, albeit without an absolute guarantee, since similar technologies are used in microprocessor technology, for example, growing a silicon monocrystal (and China understands this for sure).
      1. lucul
        lucul 11 December 2020 19: 19
        0
        In short, even copying an alloy is a long and complex process, and without an absolute guarantee of success, and you also need to take into account that modern samples contain such sophisticated and rare components that you can get it literally in a small number of places on the planet (rhenium, for example).

        Yes ? And our opponents are pouring into our ears that Korolev stupidly copied Fau -2, and did not develop the engine himself))))
        1. Bobrick
          Bobrick 15 December 2020 18: 58
          +1
          Yes ? And our opponents are pouring into our ears that Korolev stupidly copied Fau -2, and did not develop the engine himself))))


          To believe in the words of the liberal opposition is not to respect oneself.
          They also have freedom of speech, assembly and parliamentary democracy, a guarantee of the country's economic development, they say, only this will attract a Western investor that he will be ready to invest money in the country (yep, only on condition of waste wages and low taxes, and not "bourgeois democracy") ...
  • Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 10 December 2020 19: 06
    0
    It is not entirely clear why the PRC should copy such products - their computing power and competence in materials science are already quite enough for their own theoretician based on the characteristics and study of the samples available to them (the same ours, for example).
    It is this deep-rooted habit of stealing them now that is holding them back, in my opinion.
    1. Vovk
      Vovk 10 December 2020 20: 12
      +1
      Quote: Knell Wardenheart
      It is not entirely clear why the PRC should copy such products - their computing power and competence in materials science are already quite enough for their own theoretician based on the characteristics and study of the samples available to them (the same ours, for example).

      Here, on VO, they often threw a bike about the fact that a whole town had been built to Ukrainian specialists from Antonov and Motorsich in China and where they had moved with their families. That the technology from Motorsich was sold for a pittance, etc. If they are now so competent in materials science that they are not ahead of the whole planet in sophisticated aviation technology? Why do they have solid copies? Where are your unique technologies?
      Name at least one country that bought complex military samples from China and did not then swear about their reliability and operation? What are tanks, what planes, what cars, what air defense, what missiles? Name at least one example of China's military weapons, where they did not have high-profile problems after being sold to other countries?
      1. Knell wardenheart
        Knell wardenheart 10 December 2020 20: 28
        +4
        You didn't hear what I wanted to say. All these are tales that some people "can" and others "cannot" - everything depends on money and the number of minds. It is enough to look at the number of patent applications of the PRC in 2019-2020, the number of their scientific articles, their success in the development of the so-called "artificial sun" and computing technology - to understand that these guys have both the potential and the means and minds for high-quality work on this topic. Both practical and theoretical. It cannot be that a country made nanocomposites and shells for thermonuclear installations, and could not calculate and develop technological processes for turbine blades and modern engines, having perhaps the best competence in the world for measuring and studying foreign samples. I'm not praising the Chinese at all - I'm just pointing out that now, having all this, they are doing stupid things with the continuation of this copying.
        Leaving old habits is probably not easy, but in their case such abandonment would be dubious until 2015+, but now it is completely logical.

        It is likely that now this "weakness" is precisely organizational and political weakness, but not technological and intellectual. It is difficult to show and take the initiative within the framework of the CPC - there is a certain course, and it seems to be continued "by inertia".
        1. Vovk
          Vovk 10 December 2020 21: 59
          +1
          Quote: Knell Wardenheart
          I'm not praising the Chinese at all - I'm just pointing out that now, having all this, they are doing stupid things with the continuation of this copying.

          Because it is much cheaper to copy and then modernize a little than to develop and move your science. Even China does not pull this without the rest of the world. Due to the fact that Chinese workers at one time plowed rice for a bowl to the US corporation and transferred a number of non-dual-use technologies for the sake of profit.
          It is enough to look at the number of patent applications of the PRC in 2019-2020, the number of their scientific articles, their success in the development of the so-called "artificial sun" and computing technology - to understand that these guys have both the potential and the means and minds for high-quality work on this topic.

          Tell you the truth about how it's done? They take someone else's work, then publish their own Chinese work on the basis of it, but there will be references only to Chinese works ... references to someone else's work are not indicated ... plagiarism in its purest form. The patent is then based on this work.
        2. lucul
          lucul 11 December 2020 19: 26
          -1
          You didn't hear what I wanted to say. All these are stories that some peoples "can" and others "cannot" - everything depends on money and the number of minds

          Not quite so - take music and art. Only the Europeans have been successful in this.
      2. alekszeit
        alekszeit 11 December 2020 18: 54
        0
        these are not bikes, as well as what we could have dragged.
  • Aleks2000
    Aleks2000 11 December 2020 00: 36
    0
    This is so everyone knows.
    But the engines of the previous generations are already being produced by the Chinese ... They have learned in 15 years.
    Another 15 years - and overtake.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 11 December 2020 01: 24
      +4
      Distilled faster than 15 years.
      Covid helped. The entire western world (and Russia too) will be in crisis
      a few more years. No money for innovations - they go to the epidemic,
      on subsidies to people and businesses.
      In China, the virus was crushed immediately. Without losing money.
      And this money will go to science and innovation.
      1. Aleks2000
        Aleks2000 11 December 2020 21: 25
        0
        It seems right.
  • Sibguest
    Sibguest 11 December 2020 06: 26
    +3
    ".... domestic products are less complicated and whimsical, but more reliable than American ones."
    "Losing to them in some technical parameters, they are often less" demanding "in terms of manufacturing and operation."
    "... to create engine compressor blades and allow it to work stably at colossal fuel combustion temperatures, did not work."
    Dear author - you read at least a little about the design of aviation gas turbine engines before reporting either unconfirmed data (the first two lines), or writing nonsense (the compressor blades DO NOT work in the flow of combustion gases - there is a turbine engine behind the combustion chamber)
  • bad
    bad 11 December 2020 07: 04
    +15
    I think that the Chinese will not let you down, they will "write off" sooner or later.
  • anclevalico
    anclevalico 11 December 2020 07: 46
    0
    Who seeks will always find.
  • Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 11 December 2020 08: 04
    +1
    The problem is that in the days of the USSR it was necessary to copy a simply working motor (they did not pay attention to the reduced resource and gluttony) now there are indicators on the international market of the leaders of this business (so far the Russian Federation does not apply to them either) And serially it is necessary to produce turbojet engines no worse ...
  • Shopping Mall
    Shopping Mall 11 December 2020 09: 45
    +2
    However, it did not work to repeat exactly those alloys that are used in Russia to create engine compressor blades and allow it to work stably at colossal fuel combustion temperatures.


    Maybe it is still so, but they are developing, and in our country in some areas degradation is taking place. For example, I talked with the director of a company that produces equipment for the oil and gas complex, and so they refused to buy Russian steels, the quality is not stable, and take ... Chinese ones.

    And now he himself faced a similar situation, when elements of Russian "stainless" steel rusted in the products, while the German analogue (in chemical composition) showed itself perfectly. At the same time, there is a certificate for Russian material, they say everything is in order.
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 11 December 2020 09: 59
    +2
    The Chinese cannot reproduce YET. However, they are actively and rapidly moving forward. And we are falling backwards with the same or even higher speed. Three to five years later, when those who were deprived of the opportunity to retire will die of starvation and overload ...
  • Alexey-74
    Alexey-74 11 December 2020 11: 35
    +2
    The road will be mastered by the walking one. I think the development of your own aircraft engine is a matter of time.
  • Jarilo
    Jarilo 11 December 2020 11: 46
    +2
    The South Koreans started the same way - they gathered specialists from all over the world and they did everything for them.
  • Igor S.
    Igor S. 11 December 2020 12: 48
    0
    Without going into details and other details, for some reason I wanted to quote Andrey Nikolaevich Tupolev: "Only beautiful airplanes can fly well." Looking at the iron with wings from the title photo for the article, I want to shrug my shoulders and summarize: a good pilot will probably fly on IT. But how? And where?
  • Comrade Kim
    Comrade Kim 11 December 2020 14: 33
    0
    "However, it did not work to replicate exactly the alloys that are used in Russia to create engine compressor blades and allow it to work stably at colossal fuel combustion temperatures."

    This is because the designers and manufacturers of engine blade alloys have protected their products well, unlike engine builders.

    The Chinese felt like a fish in water there.
    Apparently they received much more than provided for in the license agreement.
    But they turned a blind eye to that.
    Was it launched on a false or dead-end trail, as part of a "multi-move"?
    Or the usual slovenliness of the transition period?
    In any case,
    the enriched leaders have not suffered, and they feel great in the luxurious apartments.
  • Vdi73
    Vdi73 11 December 2020 17: 23
    0
    The Chinese, they will not copy today, they will copy tomorrow, they have already proved that they can do everything that they are taught from the world, only they do not need a lot of time and patience, and then the quality will not be worse, or even better. Both their education and science are growing vertically. Well done.
  • engineer74
    engineer74 11 December 2020 19: 43
    +2
    to create the engine compressor blades and allow it to work stably at colossal fuel combustion temperatures, did not work.

    The compressor does not burn fuel ...
    At least as long as the engine is running and the plane has not burst into the ground.
  • SovAr238A
    SovAr238A 11 December 2020 22: 09
    +4
    So it turns out that, for example, the only real engine capable of lifting such PLA Air Force machines into the sky as the Y-20 military transport aircraft and the N-6 long-range bomber remains the Russian D-30KP2


    author!
    You are already six months late with your critical opus ...

    Quote from the news from early December this year ...
    At least one of China's Xian Y-20 military transport aircraft now flies with local WS-20 turbofan engines, which are more powerful than Russia's D-30KP-2.
  • Basarev
    Basarev 11 December 2020 23: 06
    -1
    We should laugh. They themselves are not better. Remember what the Superjet was actually started for - to seize French aircraft propulsion technologies. The French quickly recognized and closed the shop. And in general, is it by chance that all serial civil aircraft we have are four-engine? Until now, they have not mastered a motor that is suitable in terms of power and efficiency in order to switch to a two-engine scheme for more than half a century. And the state is more interested in new taxes and fines, this does not matter to education, science and industry ... But China will still master the engine, that's for sure. And it will already laugh at us.
    1. AC130 Ganship
      AC130 Ganship 12 December 2020 04: 00
      +2
      Are you seriously? An24, tu134, an148, tu334, tu204 are all twin-engine. The list goes on
  • certero
    certero 12 December 2020 00: 07
    +1
    Quote: EvilLion
    Asians can dig well and amicably, but invent, or, for example, program ...

    Yes, you are a racist dear.
    Can you remind you about Japanese microelectronics or machines?
  • tolmachiev51
    tolmachiev51 12 December 2020 03: 52
    0
    There is no "miracle" from the PRC - industrial espionage in all directions! Therefore, the brakes begin where the data is "super" secret .CC !!!
  • AC130 Ganship
    AC130 Ganship 12 December 2020 03: 57
    0
    A set of words. A320 and B737 are direct competitors in the market. Why create 2 different types of products to compete with them ??? Delirium is shorter
  • Alexey Kurilov_4
    Alexey Kurilov_4 12 December 2020 09: 51
    +1
    education in Russia is getting worse and worse The diploma is now just a commodity
  • witali
    witali 12 December 2020 12: 38
    +1
    Who seeks will always find. At least Russia is more dependent on China than vice versa. This is said by a person who respects his country and hates its corrupt leadership. The era of the rats.
  • Pavel Fedorov
    Pavel Fedorov 13 December 2020 09: 21
    0
    Our Judeo-liberal demonic lobby will sell everything outright ... like a dashing one ... but soon Kryndets don't care - a vaccine with a chip in the head, the third or fourth wave with covidlai-indiscretion, well, there is a third temple and the coming of Satan, not worry, comrades ... it's time to take care of your soul, soon they will be dragged to the vale of crying for judgment to God, and you are talking about nuts ... funny, however ...
  • nikant
    nikant 13 December 2020 15: 17
    -1
    China needs to make the education system akin to the Soviet one - so that they start thinking ... then no one and nothing will stop them ... any child grows out of copying ...
  • kvl
    kvl 22 December 2020 10: 28
    0
    // It is planned that the "flame engine" of the new aircraft will be equipped with such incredibly innovative parts as, for example, an 3-blade propeller made of carbon fiber material with a honeycomb rubber filling made using 18D WRTM technology, which significantly increases the flight characteristics of the aircraft //
    Is this a bad translation?