Military Review

How the "lame general" smashed the Turks at Focsani and Rymnik

74
How the "lame general" smashed the Turks at Focsani and Rymnik
Battle of Rymnik. Engraving by H.G. Schütz. Austria. End of the XNUMXth century


Alexander Suvorov taught his soldiers:

"Choose a hero, take an example from him, imitate him in heroism, catch up with him, overtake him - glory to you!"

He himself lived by this principle.

Kinburn


Catherine's journey, review of troops on the Poltava field and fleet in Sevastopol demonstrated to Europe and Turkey the power of Russia in the Northern Black Sea region. However, the Ottomans longed for revenge, sought to regain their positions on the Black Sea, and, first of all, knock the Russians out of the Crimea. Turkey was backed by the Western powers - France, England and Prussia. Therefore, the actions of the Russian empress in Istanbul were considered a challenge.

In 1787, Constantinople presented bold demands to Petersburg: the restoration of rights to the Crimea and the Georgian kingdom. Russia rejected Turkey's demands. Then the Ottomans seized the Russian ambassador Bulgakov and imprisoned him in the Seven-Tower Castle (traditionally it was a declaration of war). Russia's ally in the war was Austria, which sought to expand its possessions in the Balkans at the expense of the Ottoman Empire. Potemkin was appointed commander-in-chief of the Russian army. He commanded the main forces in Novorossiya. Troops in Ukraine were commanded by Rumyantsev. The start of the war for the Allies was unfortunate. The Ottomans pushed the Austrians back.

Suvorov received command of the Kinburn corps and defended the most important Kherson region at the beginning of the war. The Turkish command planned to land troops, take the Kinburn fortress, liquidate the base of the Russian fleet in Kherson and return the Crimea under its rule. To accomplish this task, the Turks had an advantage at sea and troops trained by French advisers.

Alexander Vasilievich already had experience in organizing coastal defense: in 1778 he solved this problem in the Crimea. Having assumed command, Alexander Suvorov set about strengthening Kherson and Kinburn. He taught the troops to operate on the narrow and long Kinburn Spit.

A week after the declaration of war (August 13, 1787), the Turkish fleet appeared at Ochakov. It was a strategic Turkish fortress in the Dnieper-Bug estuary. Until the end of September, hostilities at Kinburn were limited to shelling from enemy ships and return fire from Russian batteries. The stormy winter season on the Black Sea was approaching. The supply of Turkish troops went mainly by sea. The Ottoman fleet could not spend the winter in the freezing estuary. The Turks had to either leave, postponing a decisive offensive until next year, or try to take the Russian fortress. The Ottomans decided to storm.

On the night of October 1 (12), they opened heavy fire on the spit and Kinburnu and, under his cover, landed engineering units at the very tip of the spit, 10 versts from Kinburnu. The Turks began to prepare a wooden pier to facilitate the landing of troops from boats to the shore. In the afternoon, the landing began. A 5 detachment was landed under the command of the janissary chief Serben-Geshti-Eyyub-agi.

It was a festive day (Protection of the Virgin), and Alexander Suvorov was in the church. Having received the news of the enemy's landing, the Russian commander told the officers:

“Don't bother them. Let them all come out. "

In the Kinburn fortress there were 1 infantry, another 500 infantry and cavalry were in reserve 2 miles from the battlefield. Not meeting any resistance, the Turks went to the fortress itself, hastily digging in.

The Ottomans began the battle. Coming out from behind the slingshots, they went to the attack. The Russians responded with a volley of guns and a counterattack. The first line from the Oryol and Shlisselburg regiments was headed by Major General Rek, the second - by the battalion of the Kozlovsky regiment, Suvorov himself. In reserve were light squadrons of Pavlograd and Mariupol regiments, Don Cossacks.

The battle was stubborn. The Turks (they were selected infantry troops, janissaries) fought fiercely, defending their trenches. Turkish ships approached the coast and supported their troops with fire.

General Rek took 10 trenches but was wounded. Major Bulgakov was killed, other officers were wounded. The Turkish landing was constantly strengthened by reinforcements transported from the ships. Our troops yielded under enemy pressure, and lost several guns.

Suvorov himself fought in the front ranks of the Shlisselburg regiment and was wounded. The Janissaries almost killed him. Grenadier Stepan Novikov saved the commander. The Russians again counterattacked and drove the enemy out of several trenches. It was about 6 pm.

The Desna galley of Lieutenant Lombard fired at the left wing of the Turkish fleet. Also, the Turks were shelled by the fortress artillery of Captain Krupenikov, she sank two gunboats. Two large shebeks were burned at the very shore. The enemy fleet was forced to withdraw.

However, as Suvorov himself admitted, the shooting of the Turkish fleet caused great harm to ours. The Russian troops again rolled back to the fortress itself. Fresh troops and a reserve were brought into battle: two companies of the Shlisselburg regiment, a company of the Oryol regiment, a light battalion of the Murom regiment, a light-horse brigade arrived.

Alexander Suvorov started the third attack. Muromets, Oryol Shlisselburg companies and Cossacks broke the resistance of the Turks, who had already lost their fighting spirit. By nightfall, the Ottoman troops were driven out of all the trenches and thrown into the sea.

Losses of Russian troops - about 500 people, Turks - 4-4,5 thousand people. 14 flags were captured. The Turkish fleet went home.

The Battle of Kinburn was the first major victory for the Russian army in the war.

For this victory, Alexander Vasilyevich was awarded the highest Russian order - Andrew the First-Called.


Medal "For Distinction in the Battle of Kinburn". 1787 g.

Ochakov


The campaign of 1788 centered around the Ochakov fortress. The Turkish fleet returned to the fortress. The Russian army was tasked with taking the enemy stronghold.

In the first half of the summer, Alexander Suvorov contributed to the fight against the Turkish fleet. He installed batteries on the bank of the estuary, which, with the support of our flotilla, sank 15 Turkish ships.

In early July, Potemkin's army began the siege of Ochakov. Suvorov was a participant in this siege. He did not hide his indignation, seeing the slowness of actions and the awkward orders of His Serene Highness. Alexander Suvorov condemned the commander-in-chief for inappropriate philanthropy and openly said that they would lose more people by such "philanthropic" orders than by a decisive, "inhuman" assault.

The Turkish garrison was large (15 thousand soldiers), had serious reserves and could be under siege for a long time. The fortress was perfectly fortified.

The Russian army sat in damp dugouts, without firewood. The supply was very poorly organized: there was not enough provisions, fodder, and there were no medicines. More people died from disease than from fighting. In the cavalry and the train, the horses fell from lack of food.

In the fall, the situation worsened even more. People were freezing. Suvorov demanded an assault until the army was killed. However, Potemkin feared a decisive attack, wanted to wear out the enemy, to act with certainty in order not to give the enemies in the capital a trump card against him.

During the siege, Turkish troops made sorties and tried to disrupt engineering work. An especially large one was made on July 27 (August 7). Alexander Vasilyevich personally led a counterattack of two grenadier battalions and threw back the enemy. Received another wound.

Our troops captured part of the advanced enemy fortifications. Suvorov offered to break into Ochakov on the shoulders of the retreating Turks. However, Potemkin ordered to withdraw the troops back.

Ochakov was taken on December 6, 1788, the entire garrison was destroyed ()The fierce battle for "southern Kronstadt"... And they could have taken it much earlier, without large losses of the army from illness and frost, if Potemkin had listened to Suvorov in time.


Monument to A. V. Suvorov in Ochakov. The monument was opened on October 1, 1907, on the day of the 120th anniversary of the victory over the Turkish landing on the Kinburn Spit. The statue depicts a wounded commander near Kinburn, who, covering the wound on his chest with his left hand, shows his troops advancing on the Turks the direction of the main blow with his right hand. Sculptor B. Edwards.

Topal Pasha


The assault on Ochakov took place without Suvorov. He went to Kinburn and then to Kiev.

However, soon the commander was summoned to the capital and awarded with a diamond pen with the letter "K" (Kinburn).

Potemkin again appointed Alexander Suvorov to the front line, to the most dangerous place. While with the corps in Barlad, Suvorov was supposed to stop the enemy offensive from across the Danube and support the allies - the Austrian corps of the Prince of Coburg.

Meanwhile, the Turkish army launched a new offensive against the Austrians, and then was about to attack the Russians.

Before the offensive, there was a rumor in the Turkish troops that the Russians again had a fierce Topal Pasha, that is, a "lame general". This is how Suvorov was nicknamed in the Turkish army: he jumped, falling on his wounded leg.

The Ottomans already knew Suvorov well: where the "lame general" commanded the Russians, the Turks invariably suffered defeat there. After a wound near Ochakov, Suvorov disappeared from the theater of war, and the Ottomans considered that he was dead or seriously wounded and could no longer fight. New battles showed that the Turks were wrong. Topal Pasha was alive and became even more dangerous.

The 18th Austrian corps was commanded by Prince Coburg. In early July 1789, the 40-strong Turkish army of Yusuf Pasha crossed the Danube and began to threaten the Austrians. They called for help from Suvorov.

Without answering, Suvorov came out with a 7-thousandth detachment. In 28 hours, Suvorov's corps covered about 80 kilometers and joined the Austrians. The Ottomans did not know about this until the beginning of the battle.

Knowing that the Austrians would prefer defense to attack, due to the numerical superiority of the enemy, Alexander Suvorov did not hold meetings. He simply told Prince Coburg his battle plan. The Austrians accepted him. The allies crossed the Putna River and attacked the enemy at Focsani on 21 July. The battle lasted ten hours. The Turks were utterly defeated and fled (The defeat of the Turkish army at Focsani).

Soon the Turks decided to repeat the operation - to strike at the junction of the Russian and Austrian armies, but now with the main forces. In early September, a 100-strong Turkish army crossed the Danube.

Suvorov again acted together with the Austrians. The allied forces numbered 25 thousand soldiers. The Russian commander offered to attack. Coburg noted that the Turks have a huge superiority of forces and the offensive is risky. Suvorov replied:

“Yet there are not so many of them to block the sun for us. A quick and decisive attack promises success. "

Coburg persisted. Then Suvorov announced that he would attack the enemy alone and break him. The Prince of Coburg obeyed.

On September 11, Suvorov utterly defeated the army of the Grand Vizier (How Suvorov destroyed the Turkish army on the Rymnik river). The enemy lost up to 20 thousand people, artillery, carts with great wealth and 100 banners.

In fact, the Turkish army ceased to exist for some time. The remnants fled to the fortresses, many deserted. Suvorov's victory gave the Austrians the opportunity to conquer Belgrade, and the Russians to take several fortresses.

Rymnik was equal in importance to Cahul. Catherine elevated Alexander Vasilyevich to the dignity of count with the name of Rymniksky, awarded him with diamond insignia of the St.Andrew Order, the Order of St. George 1st degree, as well as a sword with an inscription

"To the winner of the vizier."

The Austrian Emperor Joseph bestowed upon Suvorov the title of Count of the Holy Roman Empire.

And the Austrian soldiers nicknamed Suvorov

"General Forverts" - "General Forward."
Author:
Photos used:
https://ru.wikipedia.org/
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  1. Catfish
    Catfish 10 December 2020 05: 18
    +9

    "
    The rescue of General-in-Chief A.V. Suvorov by grenadier Stepan Novikov in the battle at Kinburn on October 1, 1787. "

    "Rymnik was equal in value to Cahul. Catherine elevated Alexander Vasilyevich to the rank of count with the name of Rymniksky, awarded him with diamond insignia of the St. Andrew's Order, the Order of St. George, 1st degree, as well as a sword with the inscription" Winner of the Vizier. "

    On this occasion, Catherine wrote (I do not remember to whom) in a letter: "The whole cart with diamonds has been shipped (to Suvorov), and we don't know what else to please."
    1. Crowe
      Crowe 10 December 2020 05: 23
      +12
      "Although a whole cart with diamonds has already been applied, however, I am sending the Great Cross to the cavalry of Yegor, at your request, it deserves it," Catherine II wrote to Potemkin
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 10 December 2020 05: 39
        +8
        Exactly! smile



        18.10.1789/1/1787. Order of St. George 1791st class - for excellent art and excellent courage in battles on the Rymnik River. The Battle of Rymnik is one of the main battles of the Russian - Turkish war of XNUMX - XNUMX, which ended in the defeat of the Turkish army.
      2. lucul
        lucul 10 December 2020 10: 33
        -5
        "Although a whole cart with diamonds has already been applied, however, I am sending the Great Cross to the cavalry of Yegor, at your request, it deserves it," Catherine II wrote to Potemkin

        And why? Yes, because Potemkin, Rumyantsev and other generals, being not gifted in military affairs (against the background of Suvorov), always tried to increase the advantage over their rivals in two or three times, for confidence in victory, which pretty much undermined the economy of their country ...
        And then, some upstart appeared, and smashes the enemy having a threefold minority in the forces, how can you not get depressed when you realize that you are a complete layman in military affairs))))
        1. Stirbjorn
          Stirbjorn 10 December 2020 10: 57
          +5
          Quote: lucul
          Yes, because Potemkin, Rumyantsev and other generals, being not talented in military affairs (against the background of Suvorov), always tried to increase the advantage over the opponent by a factor of two, or even three times, for confidence in victory

          Rumyantsev was a very talented general. And in the Seven Years War he distinguished himself and the Turks, he beat himself quite well. Have you heard about the Battle of Cahul? - there were ten times more of them. No less worthy than Rymnik. Yes, Suvorov was a military genius, probably one in our entire history, but we had enough outstanding commanders, and Rumyantsev was among them.
    2. Stirbjorn
      Stirbjorn 10 December 2020 08: 06
      +3
      Quote: Sea Cat
      On this occasion, Catherine wrote (I do not remember to whom) in a letter: "The whole cart with diamonds has been shipped (to Suvorov), and we don't know what else to please."

      but the field marshal was given to him after Ishmael
      1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 10 December 2020 09: 20
        +5
        Quote: Stirbjorn
        but the field marshal was given to him after Ishmael

        after Ishmael he was granted, emnip, a lieutenant colonel of the Preobrazhensky Guards Regiment, and not a f / marshal's baton. "Izmail shame" remained his fad until the end of his life.
        1. Stirbjorn
          Stirbjorn 10 December 2020 09: 34
          +2
          Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          after Ishmael he was granted, emnip, a lieutenant colonel of the Preobrazhensky Guards Regiment, and not a f / marshal's baton. "Izmail shame" remained his fad until the end of his life.

          Yes you are right hi I didn’t put it exactly, field marshal specifically, he was given for the capture of Prague in 1794.
          My thought was that Catherine was cunning, claiming that she had nothing to reward Suvorov with for Rymnik. He strove for the field marshal's baton all his life in order to be independent in campaigns
    3. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 10 December 2020 09: 18
      -4
      For Kinburn, it seems, he received a gold plume for a hat with a diamond letter K.
      Yes, the general-in-chief had a weakness for this matter, it cannot be taken away. Swords in stones, snuff boxes in stones, a diamond bow for Prague ...
      1. Petrik66
        Petrik66 10 December 2020 09: 48
        -1
        Suvorov was not rich, but diamonds, they are not only the best friends of girls, but also a material support.
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 10 December 2020 10: 02
          +2
          Quote: Petrik66
          Suvorov was not rich

          horseradish ...
          At the request of Pavel and in connection with Varvara's litigation, he was provided with a report on the state of A.V.S.: a manor in Moscow, nine thousand eighty peasants, fifty thousand rubles of rent a year, for one hundred thousand diamonds granted. Obviously not poor.
          Quote: Petrik66
          but also material support.

          it is yes. How did he write there "dear Natasha-Suvorochka" - "Signs of St. Andrew in fifty thousand"?
        2. Mordvin 3
          Mordvin 3 10 December 2020 18: 11
          +1
          Quote: Petrik66
          Suvorov was not rich

          Quite rich. Ushakov was not rich.
      2. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 10 December 2020 18: 08
        0
        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Yes, the general-in-chief had a weakness for this matter, it cannot be taken away.

        Was he begging?
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 10 December 2020 19: 40
          0
          ... Was he begging?

          Don't juggle, my dear. The special attitude, let's say, of Suvorov to awards is well known.
          1. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 10 December 2020 21: 09
            0
            Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            The special attitude, let's say, of Suvorov to awards is well known.

            What is it like? For Prague - a golden sword, for Mare and Brest - George cross, for long patience - a hundred souls in reward ..... So, what?
            1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 10 December 2020 21: 20
              +2
              Quote: Mordvin 3
              How's that?

              yes like this ...
              For example, after Turtukai asked Saltykov "for God's sake not to forget" and to give Georgy the second class, because "the side is broken and the head is swollen."
              1. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 10 December 2020 21: 23
                0
                Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                Let's say after Turtukai asked Saltykov

                After Turkutai, he wrote directly to Catherine: Turkutai was taken, and I am there.
                1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                  Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 10 December 2020 21: 39
                  +1
                  Quote: Mordvin 3
                  After Turkutai, he wrote directly to Catherine: Turkutai was taken, and I am there.

                  Lying. Suvorov wrote this to his direct superior, Saltykov. Do not compose - no one canceled the subordination.
                  1. Mordvin 3
                    Mordvin 3 10 December 2020 21: 46
                    0
                    Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
                    Lying. Suvorov wrote this to his direct superior, Saltykov.

                    Honestly, I don't remember exactly. Perhaps Rumyantsov as well.
  2. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 10 December 2020 05: 19
    +11
    good
    Such episodes of Russian history should be known to every student in order to answer the question: "Who is Suvorov?" he did not blur out: "Yes, this is the father of the singer Dasha Suvorova!"
    This should be studied at school, so that later not to suffer in conjectures, whose Crimea, who is Prince Potemkin and why Alexander Vasilyevich Suvorov was there.
    1. lucul
      lucul 10 December 2020 10: 26
      +7
      Such episodes of Russian history should be known to every student in order to answer the question: "Who is Suvorov?" he did not blur out: "Yes, this is the father of the singer Dasha Suvorova!"
      This should be studied at school, so that later not to suffer in conjectures, whose Crimea, who is Prince Potemkin and why Alexander Vasilyevich Suvorov was there.

      To do this, you need to make films, at the level of Hollywood - a la Troy, Alexander and so on. To fix the picture, so to speak, in the brain.
      1. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 10 December 2020 12: 38
        +1
        Quote: lucul
        To do this, you need to make films, at the level of Hollywood - a la Troy, Alexander and so on. To fix the picture, so to speak, in the brain.

        Am I against? Who will shoot? Mikhalkov, Bondarchuk? Only here is one small detail: "Are there candidates for the role of Suvorov?"
        Otherwise, it will turn out to be some kind of new "Siberian Barber" or "Stalingrad" ...
      2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 10 December 2020 21: 58
        0
        Quote: lucul
        To do this, you need to make films

        what an atavistic worldview - "to shoot films" ... Friends, it's the 21st century, and you are measuring everything with "Battleships Potemkin" laughing There is Pudovkin's spirit-lifting pulp of 1941 - and enough, I suppose.
    2. Alex_K
      Alex_K 11 December 2020 16: 39
      0
      Yes, as well as the fact that the Turks defeated the Russians in three wars since Peter 1. For some reason, this is practically not taught in our schools. It's a pity, you can't underestimate your future enemy.
  3. Russobel
    Russobel 10 December 2020 05: 29
    +7
    Honor and glory to Suvorov!
    There are no words and there are very few such commanders now ...
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 10 December 2020 09: 35
      +4
      Quote: Russobel
      There are no words and there are very few such commanders now ...

      what kind of "such"? During his career, Suvorov took part in 7 (!) Wars, won 60 (!) Battles. Do you have to fight to be like that?
      1. Jünger
        Jünger 10 December 2020 10: 23
        +2
        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        Do you have to fight to be "like that"?

        We must, of course, fight.
        If the state wants to mean something in the international arena, it must have a combat-ready army. For the latter to be such, and not a paper tiger with bureaucracy and hazing, we must fight. Constantly and steadily.
        It is also useful for the internal state of affairs.
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 10 December 2020 10: 45
          +2
          Quote: Junger
          We must, of course, be at war, constantly and steadily.

          laughing
          cool.
          Constantly.
          Steadily.
          Fight.
        2. Undecim
          Undecim 10 December 2020 11: 04
          +7
          Since you see the benefit in constant "war", so list with whom you can start tomorrow?
          Have you considered such a way to achieve "importance" in the international arena as economic development?
          1. Jünger
            Jünger 10 December 2020 11: 08
            +5
            Quote: Undecim
            Since you see the benefit in constant "war", so list with whom you can start tomorrow?

            We have already started this process - in Syria, for example.
            You can seize Kiev at the same time. Well, so as not to go twice.
            For most of the 19th century, RI fought in the Caucasus. And it was purple for the whole Russian society. For a healthy state, war is normal and natural.
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 10 December 2020 11: 11
              +2
              Clear. Everything is strictly according to Daniel Zatochnik.
              1. Jünger
                Jünger 10 December 2020 11: 35
                +3
                According to Nikita the Stylite
            2. Engineer
              Engineer 10 December 2020 12: 08
              +1
              How do you combine nationalism with the imperial idea?
              No trick question.
              1. Jünger
                Jünger 10 December 2020 12: 20
                +1
                Quote: Engineer
                How do you combine nationalism with the imperial idea?

                What's the problem?
                In any empire, there is a fundamental idea that everyone serves. In the Russian Empire, for example - Orthodoxy, autocracy and attention! - nationality. What nationality? Russian, of course, since the same Alexander 3 stated - "Russia for Russians and in Russian". If the emperor combined, then I can all the more.
                And Suvorov did not say - "we are Tatars, God is with us." He mentioned the fundamental nationality - the imperial component. So there is no problem.
                Do not scratch where it does not itch.
                1. Engineer
                  Engineer 10 December 2020 12: 32
                  +2
                  Well then, we are building an empire on the bones and blood of the titular nation, first of all. We cause overstrain of her forces and inevitable disappointment and apathy. And what preferences did the Russians receive in the Russian Empire compared to others? Finns, Poles, Germans, Kazakhs?
                  1. Jünger
                    Jünger 10 December 2020 13: 42
                    +1
                    Quote: Engineer
                    Well then, we are building an empire on the bones and blood of the titular nation, first of all.

                    There is such a thing. Here, according to the proverb - "you love to ride, love to carry sledges."
                    There are no options. If foreigners could fight, they would not have been conquered. And if they cannot fight, then why are they needed in the army? Only as an auxiliary contingent. They were.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    We cause overstrain of her forces and inevitable disappointment and apathy.

                    No one in Ingushetia has overstrained itself - women gave birth, men plowed and fought. Everything is as usual. The empire died for other reasons.
                    Quote: Engineer
                    And what preferences did the Russians receive in the Russian Empire compared to others?

                    Well, in Moscow, streets on Kurban-Bayram were not blocked. Russian government officials did not apologize to the Chechen tribal leaders.
                    Russian peasants were given land in Central Asia, but Uzbeks in Russia were not.
                    When an uprising against the Russians broke out in Central Asia, the Russian tsar did not hang up noodles about international friendship and multinationality, but sent Russian troops who killed Central Asians. And they were commanded by a Russian general, not a Tabasaran.
                    Sounds good already.
                    1. Engineer
                      Engineer 10 December 2020 13: 57
                      +3
                      Nobody in RI overstrained themselves

                      Is this about the First World War? Didn't overstrain too much, yes
                      If you take any other empire, you can clearly see how overvoltage (usually military) killed them in most cases.
                      then the Russian tsar did not hang up noodles about international friendship and multinationality, but sent Russian troops who killed Central Asians. And they were commanded by a Russian general, not a Tabasaran.

                      How wonderful, but only this happened after the beginning of the uprising and the death of thousands of Russian people. They lost their property much more and became refugees. Do they also need to console themselves with the imperial idea? Well, yes, it’s happens.

                      Any empire leaves sometimes for a while, sometimes forever. And the Imperial settlers suddenly find themselves surrounded by locals who hate them a little.

                      Always amazed at such a cannibal attitude towards their own nation that the Imperials, the Communists, and the modern authorities have.
                      1. Jünger
                        Jünger 10 December 2020 14: 05
                        +3
                        Quote: Engineer
                        How wonderful, but only this happened after the beginning of the uprising and the death of thousands of Russian people. They lost their property much more and became refugees. Do they also need to console themselves with the imperial idea?

                        So it is possible in any state. In the multinational USSR, there was no nat. conflicts? Yes, complete.
                        Wasn't it in Russia? As many as two Chechen wars. Now they are smoothed out, because the power is spreading before the nationalities, and a little something - everything will flare up.
                        It is necessary to understand that Russia, apart from Russians and a couple / three of indigenous peoples, is not particularly needed by anyone. And preferences should be given to those who are dear to the state, but not to those who bawl louder than anyone else and crush the diaspora.
                      2. Engineer
                        Engineer 10 December 2020 14: 15
                        +1
                        You are now casting a shadow over the fence.
                        Perhaps in any, but in the Empire (any) it is not just possible, it is inevitable. And it will happen especially often and cruelly during the decline
                        multinational USSR

                        The USSR was an empire-post-empire-neo-empire with imperial leadership thinking superimposed on a distorted class understanding of the issue
                        All national problems of the USSR are problems of the empire

                        It is necessary to understand that Russia, apart from Russians and a couple / three of indigenous peoples, is not particularly needed by anyone.

                        It is necessary to understand either the nationalists are building the Russian Empire and then we will observe the twerk on a rake of series 3.0 with expansion and pogroms (in all directions), or they are building a national state of Russians, which is impossible (and criminal) within the framework of the current legislation.
                      3. Jünger
                        Jünger 10 December 2020 14: 31
                        +4
                        It is you who are casting the shadow now. Initially, you asked the question - how is nationalism combined with the imperial idea? I answered on the example of RI, where there was an empire and nationalism was above the roof.
                        Then your sighing that it was bad, there were a lot of problems, etc.
                        But I answered your original question. Everything was combined for a long time. And there are problems always and everywhere. The Russian state stood on "bad" ideas for a thousand years - very well. To criticize all this in hindsight is stupid, because we have not created anything more durable, and all this sublime talk is just a rattle.
                        So, in fact, I don't know what else to say - everything is said.
                      4. Engineer
                        Engineer 10 December 2020 14: 38
                        +1
                        Here you are partly right - I did not formulate my thesis from the outset in an explicit form.
                        Here it is
                        The empire is not competitive. Economically for over 100 years. In terms of building a stable state, even more.
                        A nationalist is one who desires the welfare of his nation first of all. The empire is the greatest evil for everyone - both the titular nation and the outskirts. Accordingly, it cannot be good.
                        This was poorly understood 100 years ago. Historical experience has now been accumulated, and this can be judged quite clearly.

                        The builder of the Russian Empire in modern historical conditions is a Russophobe worse than many. Well, he does not want the good of the Russian nation.
                      5. Jünger
                        Jünger 10 December 2020 15: 13
                        +3
                        I have no doubt that the classical empire is a bad idea at the moment. First of all, because the level of literacy / pseudo-literacy of formerly backward peoples has increased too much. Those societies that were not even peoples earlier - formed and entered the era of developed nationalism. And their inclusion in the empire on the previous basis is hardly possible.
                        Everything flows and changes, and if you believe that I propose to create RI number 2, then you are wrong. I don’t suggest, because even something close is impossible.
                        But before it was a sensible and competitive education. For its time.
                        Now we need to look for some other forms - it is very difficult and I don’t undertake to fantasize here.
            3. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 10 December 2020 18: 18
              +1
              Quote: Junger
              If foreigners could fight, they would not have been conquered.

              Question: Have we conquered Chechnya or bought it?
              1. Jünger
                Jünger 10 December 2020 18: 42
                +1
                Are you Mordvinians? Like neither one nor the other.
              2. Mordvin 3
                Mordvin 3 10 December 2020 21: 11
                +1
                Quote: Junger
                Are you Mordovians?

                I am the Absent-minded! laughing
      2. Undecim
        Undecim 10 December 2020 12: 33
        +2
        What nationality?
        You should familiarize yourself with the topic. Uvarov did not mean an ethnic community, he put an aesthetic meaning into the concept of "nationality". Have you heard of romantic nationalism?
        1. Jünger
          Jünger 10 December 2020 12: 47
          +4
          Quote: Undecim
          Have you heard of romantic nationalism?

          I've heard. When Poles were forbidden to study in Polish in schools - is this romantic nationalism? Let there be "aesthetic sense" - it sounds quite good.
          The main thing is to get it done, and then call it a pot.
  4. Esoteric
    Esoteric 10 December 2020 17: 21
    +2
    For a healthy state, war is normal and natural.
    With one caveat. When professionals go to this war, those who have chosen a similar type of activity for themselves. Naturally, this does not apply to the defense of the fatherland, when an external enemy attacked it, everyone goes there.
    And "that would not go twice" is not the defense of the fatherland. And a conscript soldier should not be there, give his life, or, even worse, become an invalid, for example, without legs, and then be the rest of his life, no one, absolutely no one needs.
    1. Jünger
      Jünger 10 December 2020 17: 27
      +2
      Quote: Ezoterik
      When professionals go to this war, those who have chosen a similar type of activity for themselves.

      Definitely.
      Quote: Ezoterik
      And a conscript soldier should not be there, give his life, or, even worse, become disabled, for example, without legs, and then be the rest of his life, no one, absolutely no one needs.

      Holy truth hi
      1. Esoteric
        Esoteric 10 December 2020 17: 42
        +1
        Thank you for your understanding! As for Ukraine, let them live as they want. Crimea, of course, is not theirs, it has always been Russian, from which "oak" the corn-grower transferred it to Ukraine is completely incomprehensible. This is the primordially Russian land, and now justice has been restored. Donbass has always been the Russian land, like the whole of Little Russia. And Odessa is not Ukraine.
        Crimea Russian. He was, he is, and always will be. And to score on "Svidomo", let them yell what they want.
  • Jünger
    Jünger 10 December 2020 12: 10
    +2
    Quote: Undecim
    Have you considered such a way to achieve "importance" in the international arena as economic development?

    Sorry, I didn't notice your question right away.
    Considered. But a developed economy by itself does not contribute to the development of a healthy morality in society. This can be seen in the example of modern economically developed states.
    But the developed war contributes to the rise of patriotism, morality, morality. And it contributes to the development of the same economy. See how good everything is?
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 10 December 2020 12: 24
      +5
      But the developed war contributes to the rise of patriotism, morality, morality. And it contributes to the development of the same economy. See how good everything is?
      This is not good, this is, sorry, a clinic, in other words I cannot name such an approach.
      1. Jünger
        Jünger 10 December 2020 12: 44
        0
        Quote: Undecim
        This is not good, this is, sorry, a clinic, in other words I cannot name such an approach.

        You may have a lack of testosterone in your body. This is a common problem now. There is too much of a female worldview in society and, as a result, the overdevelopment of unhealthy pseudo-humanistic ideas.
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 10 December 2020 13: 00
          +2
          what spermotoxicosis does to a person ... The fountain of brutality laughing
          1. Jünger
            Jünger 10 December 2020 14: 16
            0
            Abstinence is the cornerstone of human health and strength. The ancient Germans believed that the longer a young man refrains from intercourse with a woman, the taller he grows and becomes stronger. wink
        2. Undecim
          Undecim 10 December 2020 13: 28
          +6
          Here, rather, the problem is not in my lack of testosterone, but in its conversion with you. Are you combing the bangs to the left?
          1. Jünger
            Jünger 10 December 2020 14: 07
            +1
            Quote: Undecim
            Are you combing the bangs to the left?

            Excess testosterone causes earlier baldness. I have just such a situation.
            1. Mordvin 3
              Mordvin 3 10 December 2020 18: 25
              +2
              Quote: Junger
              Excess testosterone causes earlier baldness.

              And the rest at half past five?
  • Russobel
    Russobel 10 December 2020 12: 20
    0
    Do you have to fight to be "like that"?

    To be "like this"
    You have to be a competent commander, root for a soldier and, of course, have talent!
  • Byurer
    Byurer 10 December 2020 19: 59
    +1
    Even from the "Book of Future Commanders" I remember this figure - 60 battles, but I have not seen their listing anywhere
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 10 December 2020 20: 28
      +1
      Quote: Burer
      Even from the "Book of Future Commanders" I remember this figure - 60 battles, but I have not seen their listing anywhere

      by the way, yes - I also remember these numbers "7" and "60" from childhood)
  • parusnik
    parusnik 10 December 2020 06: 08
    +4
    Therefore, the actions of the Russian empress in Istanbul were considered for export.

    And what did Catherine take out?
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 10 December 2020 06: 51
      +5
      In my opinion, it was just a typo, but it meant "they considered it a CHALLENGE", the letters are the same, only two of them were reversed and such a nonsense turned out. request
      1. Blacksmith 55
        Blacksmith 55 10 December 2020 10: 51
        +4
        Sometimes the computer changes not only the letters but also the meaning of what is said. Same opinion as CHALLENGE.
        I read about Suvorov with great interest. Thanks .
  • Vladimir Vladimirovich S
    Vladimir Vladimirovich S 10 December 2020 06: 29
    +1
    Maybe all the same - Forwards? ... request
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 10 December 2020 09: 24
      +3
      Quote: Vladimir Vladimirovich S
      Maybe all the same - Forwards? ... request

      What nafig, "forwards"?

      vorwärts - German for "forward".
  • Million
    Million 10 December 2020 09: 13
    +3
    I have been to Ochakov, I saw a monument to Suvorov.
    And now there is an American base ...
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 10 December 2020 10: 46
    +4
    How Suvorov destroyed the Turkish army on the Rymnik river)


    A huge monument to Suvorov on the mountain at the site of the battle still stands in Romania (already the second)

    .

    But this is a place not only of a great victory, but also of the greatest personal tragedy of the Suvorovs: 22 years after the battle, his son General Arkady Suvorov drowned while crossing the Rymna River: he saved his coachman, he saved him, and himself ...

    As for Kinburn, Ochakov, Khnrson: WHERE is all that. Why was the sea of ​​Russian blood shed today?
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 10 December 2020 10: 56
      +3
      And I like the Izmail monument more.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 10 December 2020 11: 30
        +3
        Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
        And I like the Izmail monument more.

        so it is monument FROM ROMANIA, the one that is first. installed in 1913, dismantled in 1916 and then installed in Izmail. Or did you mean it?

        I have a monument to the year 1950 in my photo.

        And most of all I like the monument to Suvorov in TIRASPOL
  • Looking for
    Looking for 10 December 2020 17: 52
    0
    GLORY TO THE RUSSIAN SOLDIER !!!. GLORY TO RUSSIA !!! GLORY TO SUVOROV !!! that's what there should be a lot of articles about. And not about some knights. emblems and hats.
  • Alex_K
    Alex_K 11 December 2020 16: 54
    +1
    You need to know your heroes, as well as the fact that the Turks defeated the Russians in three wars since Peter 1. For some reason, this is practically not taught in our schools. It's a pity, you can't underestimate your future enemy.
  • Alex_K
    Alex_K 11 December 2020 17: 00
    0
    You need to know your heroes, as well as the fact that the Turks defeated the Russians in three wars since Peter 1. For some reason, this is practically not taught in our schools. It's a pity, you can't underestimate your future enemy.
  • tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
    tovarich-andrey.62goncharov 11 December 2020 20: 16
    +1
    Where did this scribble come from? As a child, I had a book - "The Unimaginable Happens", so the style of presentation (amateurish) is very similar. Bold minus this "creativity".