Military Review

F-22, Su-57 and J-20. Similarities and differences

75

F-22A in flight. Photo by US Air Force


To date, only three types of 5th generation heavy fighters have been created and put into production. The American F-22A, the Russian Su-57 and the Chinese J-20 are at various stages of production and operation. Despite belonging to the same generation and class, these machines differ markedly from each other. Their developers fulfilled different requirements and implemented different concepts - which led to known results.

Development issues


The main difference between the three projects of the latest generation fighters at the moment is their number and status. Thus, the United States began work on the 5th generation earlier than other countries and was the first to receive the finished aircraft. Serial production of F-22A fighters was completed back in 2011, when competitors were just beginning to test their machines.

The Pentagon planned to take full advantage of the gap from other countries to build a major fleet F-22A. However, in the future, the production program was reduced several times, and the Air Force received only 186 production aircraft. Only a few years after that, China began producing its J-20 fighter. According to various reports, at least 50 of these machines have already been built. Russian industry, in turn, is in no hurry. Now the construction of the first serial samples is underway, which will be transferred to the Aerospace Forces in the near future.


F-22A with open cargo compartments. The shape of the controlled engine nozzles is also visible. Photo Wikimedia Commons

It should be noted that the marked difference in “age” affected the progress of the projects. The USA had to independently gain all the necessary experience and look for the required solutions. Lagging by several years, China and Russia could take into account certain aspects of American work and adjust their plans accordingly. In addition, the three projects were initially based on different requirements, which was associated with different needs of the Air Force.

As a result, three modern 5th generation heavy fighters differ markedly from each other, both externally and internally. Let's consider their main differences in appearance, as well as their technical and conceptual reasons.

Airplane as a platform


The aircraft in question are stealth twin-engine fighters with a number of similarities and differences. So, the projects are united by the idea of ​​building a glider from metals and composites, which gives an optimal ratio of strength and weight. In addition, similar solutions were used to reduce visibility, engines with a controlled thrust vector, etc.


Su-57 on trials. Photo of UAC

When developing the F-22A, stealth was one of the main goals, which affected the appearance of the aircraft. Such requirements led to the formation of characteristic contours and some features of the internal structure of the structure. In addition, the aircraft received a special radio-absorbing coating.

The foreign press mentions that during the creation of the J-20, measures were also taken to reduce the visibility, but they are not as effective as in the case of the F-22A. There are no precise data on the parameters of the Russian Su-57's signature, and the available estimates vary greatly. At the same time, it is believed that during the development of this aircraft stealth was not a key characteristic, and for the sake of it they did not sacrifice other parameters.

The F-22A, Su-57 and J-20 have high performance twin-engine power plants. The thrust-to-weight ratio is greater than one, which is necessary for the growth of flight data. In a number of modes with the correct selection of the load, all three aircraft can perform supersonic flight without switching on the afterburner.

F-22, Su-57 and J-20. Similarities and differences

Experienced Su-57 with two types of engines. Photo of UAC

One of the main requirements for the Su-57 concerned super-maneuverability. A key component for solving this problem was the thrust vectoring engine. The AL-41F1 and Product 30 engines are capable of deflecting the vector in two planes, which in the required way affects the maneuverability. In the American project F-22A, two-plane vector control was considered unnecessary and threatening stealth. Consequently, the Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 engines have a flat nozzle that moves vertically only. Until recently, the Chinese J-20 was equipped with engines without thrust vector control. In the latest versions of the project, WS-10B-3 products are used, capable of providing super-maneuverability.

The aircraft in question received the most modern electronic equipment developed in three countries. Fully digital sighting and navigation systems, radar with AFAR, "network-centric" means of data exchange, etc. are used. There are important innovations. For example, the Su-57 uses a set of separate antennas to complement the main radar. The "glass cockpit" has long become the standard for modern fighters, and the machines in question are no exception.

Combat potential


American F-22A and Russian Su-57, despite development aviation means of destruction, retain built-in guns. The Chinese military and engineers adhere to different concepts for the development of aviation, which is why their new generation fighters do not have guns.


Bottom view. The configuration of the main cargo bays can be considered. Photo Wikimedia Commons

To ensure stealth, 5th generation fighters must carry missile and bomb weapons in their internal compartments protected from radiation. Thus, the F-22A has a large central cargo bay with 6 suspension points. On the sides of it there are two additional compartments, one missile each. Four removable pylons can be installed under the wing. The Russian project Su-57 provides for the placement of two large main compartments along the fuselage. There are two additional compartments in the center section. It was reported that there are 8 suspension points in four compartments. The same amount is installed under the wing if necessary. The J-20 is similar in design to the F-22A and is capable of carrying at least 6 air-to-air missiles or otherwise weapon... There are 4 additional suspension points under the wing.

The sighting systems of all three fighters were initially compatible with modern aircraft weapons. Measures were also taken to ensure easy and fast integration of new designs. Some new types of missiles and bombs were originally created taking into account the characteristics of the 5th generation fighters.

Concepts and requirements


Thus, the three 5th generation heavy fighters, having common features, differ significantly from each other in key features and characteristics. The reasons for this are simple: the military of the three leading countries have different views on the development of fighter aircraft and put forward different requirements.


Chinese J-20 in flight. Photo Wikimedia Commons

The goal of the American project was to create a fighter capable of invisibly approaching a target at an attack distance using long-range missiles. Combat at shorter distances and work on ground targets were not excluded, but were never considered as the main functions. For this reason, the F-22A has a distinctive appearance and does not show super-high maneuverability, although it is capable of carrying a significant amount of ammunition.

The Russian fighter of the new generation Su-57 was created as a universal vehicle for long-range and close combat, as well as for engaging ground targets. As a result, flight and maneuverability characteristics, sighting system and weapons were given high priority. To some extent, they sacrificed stealth.

The exact goals of the developers of the Chinese J-20 are unknown, but the appearance of this machine serves as a transparent hint. It seems that the basic concept of this machine is a cross between Russian and American. Both long-range and close air combat are a priority. For this, the aircraft carries advanced avionics and weapons, and also has a characteristic aerodynamic design that increases maneuverability. The potential for percussion work is questionable.


J-20, bottom view. The features of the aerodynamic shape and the configuration of the weapon bays are visible. Photo Wikimedia Commons

With all this, cost issues should be considered. The highly advanced and sophisticated F-22A turned out to be too expensive even for the United States, because of which the production program was cut several times. The Russian Su-57 has already gone into production, but its cost remains a topic of controversy and a potential risk. China seems to have found opportunities for mass production of its J-20, but what the final number of such equipment will be is a big question.

It should be recalled that the F-22A, Su-57 and J-20 are not the only fighters of the latest generation. It also includes a number of other developments, both brought to the series and remaining at the design stage. All of them are created in different countries according to their own requirements - and they also differ from each other, despite certain similarities and common points. In addition, research on the next 6th generation has already begun, and the results of this work in different countries will again be different. Time will tell what paths the further development of fighters will take, and how current developments will affect it.
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  1. Profiler
    Profiler 9 December 2020 05: 59
    +17
    There are no precise data on the parameters of the Russian Su-57's signature, and the available estimates vary greatly. At the same time, it is believed that during the development of this aircraft, stealth was not a key characteristic, and for its sake they did not sacrifice other parameters.


    Photos with the design features of the air intake of our fighter have been published.
    The photo shows a special KRR array - (coaxial-radial array), the so-called "radar blocker".

    We are talking about a special design that makes it possible to reduce the radar signature of a combat aircraft when illuminated with a "head-on" radio beam.
    It is located in its air intake, and at the same time the radar blocker (radar blocker) itself is made of radio-absorbing material.

    Earlier, there was a controversy about the air intakes of the Su-57. They consisted in the following: will Russian aircraft designers use the experience of their American colleagues from Lockheed Martin, who created the S-channel, leading to a decrease in visibility? This option is also intended to exclude or at least reduce the direct frontal transmission of LCD (engine compressor blades). The Americans implemented this technique on their F-22.

    If the photo is the final version of the Su-57, then we can state that this dispute is over: Russian aircraft designers did not bother with the S-channel. Instead, the aforementioned coaxial-radial array is used as a radar blocker.
    1. VO3A
      VO3A 9 December 2020 11: 42
      -14%
      A very primitive analysis of aircraft for the 5th generation! Only the F-5 is a real 35th generation aircraft. It is fully integrated into the US information (network-centric) system and is a universal part of it. All the other aircraft listed can become the 5th generation aircraft, if necessary and with information systems. Even the F22 is not fully integrated into the information system and its capabilities are limited, and improvements are being made intensively. Those F35 aircraft that the United States sells to other countries and do not have access to their information system are of no value and are not 5th generation aircraft! It makes no sense to buy these planes, they are of value only in the American network-centric system. The United States is deceiving its partners, who actually buy aircraft not for themselves, but for the United States, but for their own money. Interesting works of Israel, which create their own information system and remake, or rather reconfigure the F-35 for their systems. This already brings them military benefits, and in the long term, commercial ...
      1. Poganini
        Poganini 9 December 2020 12: 55
        +6
        Very funny, the joke is over! ) Call a bucket of the 5th generation: 1) not having cruising supersonic, 2) increased visibility in radar and infrared ranges (hello round nozzle)) 3) ridiculous speed (pepelats is not even able to get out of battle) 4) combat radius with gulkin .. .hm ... nose 5) a ridiculous amount of explosive missiles is a fierce chutzpah. )) And then in Israel "bird" knocks them down. And poor Americans, who do not know their own happiness, are forced to reorder F-15s and hornets. Well, to fight on what is still necessary.
        1. Bobik012
          Bobik012 2 January 2021 02: 58
          0
          In vain you are so it. The machine is not bad. The best VTOL aircraft ever built (well, really, the best!), And in all other respects the victim of an erroneous concept, when they began to sculpt a universal prodigy from the vertical. It turned out just a waffle. Therefore, the f-35 (and the f-22, for slightly different reasons) will face the fate of the f-117 - decommissioning and decommissioning without much fuss after the investment has been mastered. In America, adequate people also understand this, because, again, without much noise, they resume production of the f-15 (a very good aircraft, by the way).
          The spells of the adepts "EPR 0,0000001 m2" and "network centricity" are just spells (blessed are those who believe). "Network centricity" is banally treated with the most deshman EW means, and the effectiveness of STEALTH technologies, on a campaign, is not very effective (there is only one step from a pun to taftoology :-)). But that's why they are adepts!
          I forgot! He also has a "three-circuit engine". Gentlemen of the sectarians, how did you miss this aspect of the divine theory ?!
      2. El Chuvachino
        El Chuvachino 9 December 2020 13: 19
        0
        All countries have their own requirements and visions for the notorious (right, already sick) fifth generation.
        1. VO3A
          VO3A 9 December 2020 16: 32
          +1
          Well, here I do not agree with you. An aircraft of the 5th generation becomes such if it is an element of the Combat Information System, which allows reconnaissance, target designation and destruction of targets in the air, on the ground, and at sea in real time ! In order for an airplane to be a universal element of such a network-centric system, it must possess certain properties. This is invisibility, which is ensured by the small RCS and the placement of weapons in the internal compartments. This is the effectiveness of covert reconnaissance through the use of AFAR and passive modes of operation, to have powerful computing resources on board for real-time operation and covert communication channels with high performance. To control large areas, it must be able to work at supersonic without afterburner. In case of its detection, due to its super-maneuverability, it will be able to break away from the pursuers and air defense systems .... This is where the signs of the 5th generation aircraft come from. But the main condition is to enter the LSI as the main universal element! Now I hope it is clear to everyone, so as not to feel sick ...
          1. Technical engineer
            Technical engineer 13 December 2020 22: 50
            +1
            VOZA, this kind of garbage in the time of the USSR was called the Reconnaissance and Strike Complex. The only thing was that the functions were separated. The MiG-31 worked on air targets combined with an air defense system, Tu-22M3 and Su-24 on ground targets. Let me explain the MiG-31 received current information in real time and worked in the information field of the air defense uniting both interceptors and air defense systems and even the air defense of the fleet. And this was back in 1988, when I served at the air defense command post of the Air Defense Forces Brigade in Vladivostok. It's nice that the first aircraft of the 5th generation, according to your definition, was our MiG-31.)
            1. VO3A
              VO3A 14 December 2020 12: 41
              +1
              allows you to conduct reconnaissance, target designation and destruction of targets in the air, on the ground, and at sea in real time!

              To some extent, YES! But everyone saw him, yes, it was difficult to shoot down! And this only concerned air defense, but what about fighting on land and at sea?
              Tu-22M3 and Su-24 for ground targets

              In real time ? This is already fantasy and fairy tales! Yes, and they received the coordinates of the target via the radio channel and theoretically could manually enter these coordinates into the complex ... But in practice this was not possible and was not used, and what kind of real time could it be?
            2. The eye of the crying
              The eye of the crying 19 January 2021 01: 13
              0
              Quote: Technical Engineer
              Let me explain the MiG-31 received current information in real time and worked in the information field of the air defense uniting both interceptors and air defense systems and even the air defense of the fleet.


              Depending on how the term "received current information" is defined, the same can be said about the Yak-1. And so - the Su-15 was also able to reach the target by the commands of the air defense ACS.
          2. Bobik012
            Bobik012 2 January 2021 03: 08
            +1
            Don't smoke THIS anymore
          3. wisealtair
            wisealtair 4 February 2021 15: 59
            0
            And why did you decide that the Su57 has NO so-called. "Combat Information System"?
            And that the Su57 does not have a small EPR and placement of weapons in the internal compartments?
            And the F35 does not know how to fly supersonic at all, neither with afterburner, nor without boost. The Fast and the Furious forbade him to turn on Lockheed Martin not so long ago, because the tail is falling apart.
            And you generally googled what processors are in the F35 on-board computer? The F35 has PowerPCs manufactured by NXP at a design rate of 90 nm)
            The avionics on the Su-57 are built on the UVSS - a universal computing network system. This piece of hardware is based on 24 cores of Elbrus Vliw. Moreover, the Su-57 has TWO such systems. Its processing power surpasses that of the F35, and significantly.
            1. Volkof
              Volkof 6 February 2021 23: 31
              0
              You don't even understand what it is about! The BIS is not on the plane, but the plane is included in this system, integrates into it, is its important element ... It can exchange information, receive target designation and provide target designation for ground, sea, air elements of this system ...
      3. EvilLion
        EvilLion 9 December 2020 14: 52
        -2
        Gunya with BMPD, write under your nickname.
      4. petroff
        petroff 15 December 2020 11: 12
        0
        What about the F35's non-afterburner over sonic flight?
        Or does he only have integration into the information system from the fifth generation !?
        And with the same success, you can call unmanned hunters the fifth generation ... There is integration, the rest does not matter ...
        1. servant.
          servant. 17 December 2020 16: 09
          0
          And what is more important is integration or non-afterburner supersonic? Or maybe all together? Amers already have everything together .... we are unlikely to have it soon ...
          1. petroff
            petroff 18 December 2020 15: 09
            0
            I mean, everything is together !?
            F35 has no afterburner supersonic flight mode.
      5. EnGenius
        EnGenius 17 December 2020 18: 50
        +1
        All the same, the F-35 is a cheaper version of the F-22 and a replacement for the F-16. Nearly all US fighters built since 16 have network-centric capabilities via Link-2000. A similar system, albeit not so large-scale, exists in the Russian Aerospace Forces. A real step for the F-35 is the long-range infrared optical station. So yes, without the capabilities of the United States or other countries with flying tankers and Avacs, the F-35 is in fact a slightly advanced fourth generation aircraft with compromise restrictions. But we must pay tribute, the serial price of this miracle was reduced to the level of 4th generation aircraft. True, about the Su-57, it was stated that its production price does not exceed $ 40 million. Here even Americans and Chinese will light up with envy!
      6. Yellow bubble
        Yellow bubble 6 February 2021 15: 55
        0
        Strangely, the f35 was created by Yakovlev's office a glider and an engine nozzle, and where is our new plane.
    2. mmaxx
      mmaxx 9 December 2020 16: 53
      +3
      The S-channel has long been installed on all types of Su-27. Well, Americans .... Found an innovation.
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 14 December 2020 08: 10
        -1
        Where to get this herb?
        1. mmaxx
          mmaxx 14 December 2020 09: 02
          -1
          You will not believe! They are really S-shaped. And for this very purpose. I saw and I know (.
          1. EvilLion
            EvilLion 14 December 2020 09: 49
            +1
            Photo to the studio.
            1. mmaxx
              mmaxx 14 December 2020 16: 23
              -1
              No way. They'll give me in the head. Although I can take a picture at the factory. No engine. But I still won't. But take my word for it)))). The Su-27/30 air intake duct is S-shaped. It is a fact. Yak-130 too. And it's not a secret at all. There is nothing to argue about here at all.
    3. Sergey Sfiedu
      Sergey Sfiedu 15 December 2020 19: 04
      +1
      Well, how can such a lattice be a radar blocker when irradiated in the forehead? Samhiva for misinformation.
  2. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 9 December 2020 05: 59
    +8
    Thanks for the benchmarking. The main thing is to isolate the similarity of the Su-57 with the F-22A, and not compare it with the F-35 ... yes
    It should be recalled that the F-22A, Su-57 and J-20 are not the only fighters of the latest generation. It also includes a number of other developments, both brought to the series and remaining at the design stage. All of them are created in different countries according to their own requirements - and they also differ from each other, despite certain similarities and common points.

    By the way, about generations, indeed, it is necessary to remind that:
    On December 13, 2011, the Lockheed Martin Corp. assembly shop in Marietta, Georgia, left the last production F-22A fighter, hull number 10-4195. He became 195th F-22Areleased since 1997.

    F-35 released more 500... The number of J-20, with the development of the Chinese military-industrial complex, can also grow rapidly. And how will Russia respond? The seventy-six Su-57s that should (or will? And will they?) Be delivered to the troops by 2028?
    Sometimes quantity can grow into quality. It is not for nothing that the concept of using "drone swarms" is acquiring real forms and is beginning to enter the tactics of modern combat.
    In addition, research has already begun on the next 6th generation, and the results of this work in different countries will again be different.

    Aha ... The main thing here is to start and improve.
    F-22, Su-57 and J-20. Similarities and differences

    And here, most importantly, one should distinguish (with all the advantages and disadvantages of one model over another) the presence of one or another aircraft in nature (as well as the possibility of appearing in sufficient numbers, including not only the glider and weapons, but also radar and other electronic (! !!) stuffing, also stealth).
    And by this one can compare, one can hit in the chest with a hoof, one can spit and "throw caps", but one cannot get away from the fact of "PRESENCE" of this fifth element generations in the army.
    1. Jacket in stock
      Jacket in stock 9 December 2020 06: 28
      +3
      Quote: ROSS 42
      one cannot get away from the fact of the "PRESENCE" of this fifth generation element in the troops.

      Those. do you suggest riveting 500 pieces too?
      Apart from the fact that these 500 "penguins" are going into the troops of a dozen countries, with which we, with all our desire, cannot be compared, you yourself wrote that the next, sixth generation is on the way.
      Why produce obviously outdated technology?
      So then, as was the case with the tanks, to put them in rows in the woods?
      It may be more optimal to make them in sufficient quantity without overtaxing your budget.
      1. Profiler
        Profiler 9 December 2020 06: 38
        +8
        Quote: Jacket in stock

        Those. do you suggest riveting 500 pieces too?

        The Defense Ministry and the General Staff decide how much and what the army needs for the range of tasks assigned to it.
        But at the same time, it really would not be bad if our "riveting machine" (VPK) allowed us to produce at least 1000, at least 10 Su-000 without strain, if necessary ...

        But, considering how it really is, these are DREAMS.
      2. Ross xnumx
        Ross xnumx 9 December 2020 06: 46
        +3
        While in words:
        Quote: Jacket in stock
        Those. do you suggest riveting 500 pieces too?

        I propose to engage in a comparison of what is.
        Quote: Jacket in stock
        Apart from the fact that these 500 "penguins" go to the troops of a dozen countries, with which we, with all our desire, cannot be compared

        And we don't need to compare in the number of aircraft in the NATO bloc. We have no aircraft carriers either. We need to compare our strategy (defensive, in which both forces and means are required less - offensive / defense = 3/1) with the strategy of the United States and NATO and have an effective weapon for one hundred percent efficiency.
        Quote: Jacket in stock
        so you yourself wrote that the next, sixth generation is on the way.

        The author wrote this. I have quoted.
        Quote: Jacket in stock
        Why produce obviously outdated technology?
        So then, as was the case with the tanks, to put them in rows in the woods?

        This is you for the T-72 modernizers ...
        Quote: Jacket in stock
        It may be better to make them in sufficient quantity without overstraining the budget.

        The cart is not placed in front of the horse. First, the strategy and tactics of combat are developed (for different types of troops and for different conditions of combat), and then they think about where to put the tanks ("both in the center"), when to insert the "product 30" into the fifth generation aircraft and what will happen to " Admiral Kuznetsov "by 2022.
        1. Jacket in stock
          Jacket in stock 9 December 2020 07: 15
          +4
          Quote: ROSS 42
          First, the strategy and tactics of fighting are worked out (for different types of troops and for different conditions of battle), and then they think where to put the tanks ("both in the center"

          No, in our case, the horse is the size of the wallet and the technological level of the industry.
          For in the case of the possibility of "riveting" to make 1000 aircraft (one day - one regiment), the tactics of the battle are the same, roughly speaking, you can attack with a chain.
          and when each Supreme Tank personally counts and one rifle for three soldiers, the tactics will be completely different. If you want, you will have to do it in short dashes.

          Well, I agree about the strategy.
          First, you need to clearly define what we want, who are these "we" and other-other-other.
          Although, what am I, naive, ideology is prohibited by the Constitution.
        2. Herman 4223
          Herman 4223 9 December 2020 16: 37
          +1
          The ratio of three to one is needed only at the breakthrough site, the rest are simply cut off or surrounded by communications, and they leave by themselves. For the defense of the troops, you need no less simply because you cannot know where the enemy will attack.
      3. servant.
        servant. 17 December 2020 16: 11
        0
        Probably we have enough?
    2. Poganini
      Poganini 9 December 2020 09: 23
      -3
      The Chinese was placed in the fifth tribe in advance. When the PGO is broken off, it will be possible to talk about something, but for now it is too early for him. ) And how many combat-ready F-22s remained after all sorts of tornadoes, no one really knows. Maybe a hundred in total, we have the same number of Su-35s, which are considered equal to the Raptor in the WB. Although, for my taste, it is unlikely that the Raptor has a chance, the Khibiny will take him with rockets in milk and hello BVB. And there - no chance. And he will not be able to leave the battle - the speed and combat radius are too small.
    3. Technical engineer
      Technical engineer 13 December 2020 22: 53
      +2
      I have vague doubts about the F-22. They were quickly removed from production. The lines were taken apart. And they were not allowed to participate in any real conflict. Here, something is wrong with him. There was no such aircraft in the history of the United States about which information was so hushed up. Moreover, Israel asked to sell, and they told him figs, the same was answered to the Japanese.
      1. Sergey Sfiedu
        Sergey Sfiedu 15 December 2020 19: 08
        0
        Saudi journalists write that Trump seems to have approved the sale of the F-22 to Israel. The reliability is unknown. Neither is the reaction of Biden and Congress known, if this is true.
    4. Bobik012
      Bobik012 2 January 2021 03: 18
      0
      When the SU-57 appears en masse in the troops, the f-22 and f-35 will already be written off (f-117 as an example), and it will have to be compared with the f-18 after the fact of its PRESENCE.
  3. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 9 December 2020 06: 03
    +1
    Time will show what paths the further development of fighters will take, and how current developments will affect it.

    It depends on what task the politicians of these countries will face ... to attack or defend ... from this they will form the concept of using these fighters.
    Undoubtedly, the Americans will use their F-22 as a breakthrough fighter for the enemy's air defense. Ours and the Chinese will be more suitable for defensive battles ... hence the different requirements for the stealth of these machines. hi
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 9 December 2020 09: 55
      0
      A breakthrough in an F-22 will not fit.
    2. Aag
      Aag 9 December 2020 19: 02
      +1
      "... It depends on what task the politicians of these countries will face ... to attack or defend ..."
      Specify, please, who are you talking about? From the countries under consideration? Clearly, not about us in terms of offensive. With regard to the PRC, the United States, I do not think that they are seriously considering the option of a direct "get-together." With regard to third countries, under certain conditions , and we get there, - aggression is possible. Here their conditions are somewhat different: China to a certain depth of the eastern, southeastern part of the Russian Federation can work from its territory. The United States, from allied bases, mainly from the west, south ... Sorry, I'm drawing some kind of armageddon plot ...
      It seems that they will gnaw a little bit, lokalkami. Karabakh, Moldova, Central Asia, the Baltic States ... They bite there, they barked here ... Naturally, accompanying economic, financial, pressure. As huskies stop a bear, hyenas finish the lion.
      It seems like I'm falling out of the scope of the article under discussion. However, I count, this aspect must be taken into account when discussing the requirements for IA in the present and future periods. hi
  4. Poganini
    Poganini 9 December 2020 09: 11
    -4
    Well Glory to the KPSS that the author did not insert the F-35 into the fifth generation - respect and respect. Although I am sincerely glad that this work is going on in the US Air Force. This is one of many proofs that they are not going to fight us. They just can't on penguins.
  5. EvilLion
    EvilLion 9 December 2020 09: 54
    +6
    In a number of modes with the correct selection of the load, all three aircraft can perform supersonic flight without switching on the afterburner.


    What, J-20 too? Su-27 engines? Although the Chinese can say whatever they want, no one will check it, and they will not export it even in 20 years. Because no one will buy, because professionals understand what the price is for the Chinese generations.

    their new generation fighters do not have cannons.


    Well, logical. A cannon in a container will be suspended on stealth in the database. LOL. Because the cannon is not only and not so much as the "pistol" of air combat, it allows tracer shots to be fired if it is necessary to force someone to sit down. Well, if you go close to the intercepted, then when you receive an order for destruction, you do not have the fact that you can immediately use the missiles, since there is a minimum range.

    As for the J-20 as a whole, when I first saw the photograph of the compartments, I wanted to laugh hysterically for a long time, like a horse. It can be seen that the main compartment is short and shallow and can only house air-to-air missiles or small diameter bombs (SDB). When the F-22 was created, it was made exclusively an air fighter, and such a solution suited everyone, then the possibility of using the SDB was screwed onto it, so that at least somehow it could be used on the ground. Whether this made any sense at all, given the small number of cars produced, I'm not sure. Still, the Americans have all sorts of F-15Es.

    The Chinese, as they could, copied it, or rather blinded it from what it was, using the aerodynamic scheme popular in the 80s. I'm not saying that it is non-functional in this role, but in general, the J-20 is a project devoid of any ambition, outdated at the time of its creation, which, perhaps, will be replaced by something more adequate in the coming decades. At the same time, nothing prevents the Chinese from building a hundred such machines and working out the features of their use on them, as the Germans used to play with tanks, like the Pz-I. Well, and in some aspects to save.

    Why is this so important, but for the same reason that the F-117 was once created. The interceptor does not really need stealth, and by turning on the radar, he will say to everyone on the course: "I am here." Well, in itself, the reduction of the RCS, for it to work, must occur not several times, but by orders of magnitude, since the detection range is proportional to the 4th root of the RCS. And if, for example, the Su-57's EPR is twice as high as that of the F-22, then this is not at all like the confrontation of 2 tanks with 76 mm guns, only one has 50 mm armor, and the other has 100. Obviously, the second a huge advantage. An aircraft with twice the RCS will be detected from a distance greater by only 19%.

    This is where stealth is very important, so this is when breaking through enemy air defenses to deliver heavier gifts to the enemy, which the Su-57 will bring in its belly. Like the F-35 (its bombs are even larger, but what about long missiles). Only the F-35, exactly as a plane, is a budget piece, and our Air Force in any case needs a long-range interceptor, since no one will make any separate MiG-41, it is too expensive, then the functions can be combined in one machine.

    I do not think that the Chinese do not understand this, but they seem to be physically unable to create such a configuration yet; riveting iPhones does not provide knowledge in materials science and related technologies.

    And the fact that the Su-57 is "delayed" in the series (the F-22 took much longer to get to it) should not be surprising, since it is a much more advanced machine than the J-20. First of all, like an airplane, from which its other possibilities already follow.
    1. Aag
      Aag 9 December 2020 19: 27
      0
      From the point of view of a non-specialist, it seems that everything was correctly stated ... Plus.
      However, IMHO: we have retained stereotypes regarding China's technological capabilities. From various sources, there really is not a breakthrough, but a systematic acceleration.
      Good or bad is another question. On the one hand, the US is straining, good.
      On the other hand, if, as the USSR and the United States did, they begin to "divide" the world among themselves? Will they divide us along the Ural ridge?
  6. Glebovich
    Glebovich 9 December 2020 10: 42
    +3
    All the articles about fifth generation fighters do not cover the topic of hydraulic drive and hydraulic equipment, and this is one of the criteria that classifies fighters as the fifth generation. Modern hydraulic systems are comparable in complexity to engines.
  7. CastroRuiz
    CastroRuiz 9 December 2020 15: 13
    +1
    Da uzh. J-20 eto dorabotanaya kopia MiG 1.44.
  8. Private SA
    Private SA 9 December 2020 15: 33
    0
    Something else Swedish "Wiggen" (Saab 37) from the photo from the J-20 vaguely remembered.
    Duck-style aerodynamics?
  9. fa2998
    fa2998 9 December 2020 17: 13
    0
    Quote: Poganini
    And how many combat-ready F-22s are left

    And what's the difference? In the states, the F-22 is considered an obsolete aircraft. It is incorrect to compare it with the Su-57 (which does not yet exist). While we produce, in reasonable quantities, they will roll out the new aircraft!
    Our plans are a plane with a stage 2 engine - 2024, and by 2028 - 76 units - 2 times less than now F-22.And this without shifting to the right, which is often ours. hi
  10. Knell wardenheart
    Knell wardenheart 9 December 2020 18: 19
    0
    I cannot shake off the impression that the Chinese plane is very bulky and I would even say somewhat ridiculous. Its "super-maneuverability" does not fit well into such radical games with nozzles, it is long and fat, the front fenders will hardly add to its quality improvement in the complex, and the air intakes are simply gigantic.
    As an ersatz-F22, perhaps it has a certain niche, given the quantitative growth opportunities available to the Chinese economy - but the success of the combination makes me skeptical.
    1. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 9 December 2020 23: 17
      +1
      Rather, it is an increased Ф35. According to the concept.
      1. Arkon
        Arkon 10 December 2020 20: 07
        +1
        Quote: Zaurbek
        Rather, it is an increased Ф35.


        Rather, it is a stolen Mig 1.44
        1. Zaurbek
          Zaurbek 10 December 2020 22: 58
          +1
          I mean, I'm not an air superiority fighter
          1. EvilLion
            EvilLion 14 December 2020 08: 14
            0
            Where are you looking at? Nothing but air-to-air missiles fits into it.
            1. Zaurbek
              Zaurbek 14 December 2020 08: 54
              +1
              For the 5th generation, the bombs are the size of a rocket. long and small diameter. And wings for planning. Including in the Russian Federation. And sometimes of a square section, for a larger volume of explosives in them.
              1. EvilLion
                EvilLion 14 December 2020 09: 47
                +2
                Have you seen the KAB-1500 at all? True, it is not intended for the Su-57, but the missile weighing 700+ kg is quite. The weight of the SDB does not exceed 200 kg, while gliding bombs are a purely niche weapon, which neither the usual FAB-250-270, nor the KAB-500, let alone very powerful products, can replace. I'm not talking about all sorts of BETAB, which, in principle, cannot be compact and lightweight.
                1. Zaurbek
                  Zaurbek 14 December 2020 10: 00
                  +1
                  The problem? In the stealth version with internal suspensions, a small diameter of up to 250 kg is used with a bomb weight (the guidance systems are so perfect that they already hit + or - 1 meter) ..... for a larger caliber - external suspension and other targets in other conditions, when air superiority already received.
                  1. EvilLion
                    EvilLion 14 December 2020 10: 03
                    0
                    Do you understand that 250 kg is simply not enough for many objects? And the F-35 Carries bombs up to 905 kg. Moreover, such objects should be hit in the first place, the identified command post under meters of concrete will not wait until you win in the air.
                    1. Zaurbek
                      Zaurbek 14 December 2020 10: 10
                      +1
                      Comrade, for those in the tank .....:
                      1. With increasing accuracy, less explosives are needed in the ammunition.
                      2. When it comes to objects that need to be hit with bombs from 500kg, air superiority has already been achieved and there is no need to stuff them inside the aircraft.
                      3. For emergency purposes, the Americans propose to use B-2 (21) ... but for this you need to know its EXACT coordinates. and if aerial reconnaissance doesn't work, you won't get them. And the enemy won't let her work.
                      1. EvilLion
                        EvilLion 14 December 2020 10: 38
                        +1
                        In general, air superiority is achieved, including by the defeat of highly protected objects.

                        To hit if the bomb cannot penetrate the defense will be of little use. The fact that the accuracy has increased, and generally the controllability has become cheaper, and as a result we have a lighter KAB-250 bomb, does not reduce the requirements for destructive action. In the same Syria, where there seems to be no super-powerful fortification, sometimes even KAB-1500 was used.

                        Rockets, air-to-surface in-1 are quite long, in-2, even the light X-25 weighs 300 kg. More serious samples, like the Kh-38, can be pulled by 500-600 kg and even more.
                      2. Zaurbek
                        Zaurbek 14 December 2020 13: 11
                        0
                        First, observation radars are knocked out ... warehouses with weapons and fuel, air defense systems ... for all this, what is placed in the compartments is enough.
      2. yehat2
        yehat2 4 February 2021 10: 42
        +2
        not stolen. In the 90s, the Chinese bought documentation on it and even took specialists from the MIG to their place.
    2. EvilLion
      EvilLion 14 December 2020 08: 14
      0
      Where to hang bombs? The photo shows that there is no room for them.
  11. Evil Booth
    Evil Booth 13 December 2020 12: 52
    0
    for use as an interceptor completely straight. and they need it in the field.
    1. Zaurbek
      Zaurbek 14 December 2020 08: 55
      0
      AFAR allows you to work perfectly both by air and by land / water ...... why limit yourself to something? And for China, attacks on ships are just as important as air defense. these are two big dangers for China.
      1. Evil Booth
        Evil Booth 15 December 2020 17: 10
        0
        that is, according to your other to do the 5th generation, it’s here to do it .. as on paper oops and speed * 10, just assign zero. they couldn’t) and what they did and clearly seemed more necessary to them, otherwise they would have done it all the same. it directly gravitates towards the percussion interceptor.
        1. Zaurbek
          Zaurbek 15 December 2020 18: 09
          0
          Sober, but did not understand your thoughts
  • Mikle2000
    Mikle2000 10 December 2020 19: 34
    0
    Wow one generation. The release of one aircraft was discontinued 10 years ago, the other has not yet begun, and moreover, no one can say when this release will begin and whether it will begin at all
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 14 December 2020 08: 15
      0
      You cannot do that, but everything is spelled out in the contract.
  • RVAPatriot
    RVAPatriot 10 December 2020 22: 05
    0
    The article is not about anything ...
  • Evil Booth
    Evil Booth 13 December 2020 12: 51
    0
    in bad for one current photo f22 on the capital drinks
    and in America, horror stories go that f22 does not integrate well into the air force air defense combat, but with continuous duty there will be 20 pieces of commercials (24 hours * 30 days), that only radars are weak, but su57 have a bunch of special sights and radars of different frequencies inaccessible to the raptor. moreover, in a circular one has both RB and RTR and radar in particular.
  • Charik
    Charik 15 December 2020 12: 12
    -2
    I repeat-Su57 and Dzh20- "all" is scratched with F22-35
  • Bobik012
    Bobik012 2 January 2021 03: 27
    0
    Quote: fa2998
    Until we produce, in reasonable quantities, they will roll out the new plane!

    Here I agree. The f-15 is already in production
    1. The eye of the crying
      The eye of the crying 19 January 2021 01: 18
      0
      Quote: Bobik012
      The f-15 is already in production


      It never stopped.
  • FrankyStein
    FrankyStein 3 February 2021 16: 19
    0
    Again I hear about the lack of super-maneuverability f22. Why is he not super-maneuverable?
  • yehat2
    yehat2 4 February 2021 10: 41
    +1
    Something I still did not understand, who made the main requirement for the su-57 super-maneuverability?
    why is this demand constantly emerging, but it is also constantly unclear who made it?
  • wisealtair
    wisealtair 4 February 2021 16: 02
    0
    Quote: ROSS 42
    More than 35 F-500s were produced.


    Yeah, and their combat readiness is only 5%. So far, 1000+ problems discovered in the F35 and indicated openly in the official Pentagon report have not been fixed for all fighters. Most are simply forbidden to take to the air.
    I can cut the blanks too.
  • Nick rex
    Nick rex 23 February 2021 21: 18
    -1
    , ".. F22a does not show super-high maneuverability .."
    "..su57 got high flying and maneuverable h-ki ..".
    Ndya .. this is all doggie. Judging by the well-known video, su57 is like a loader from propashinsk and a ballerina of the Bolshoi Theater will perform swan lake together. And su57 will not be a ballerina at all!
    Where does so much arrogance come from? This is pure demagoguery heh
  • aleksandrkotov797
    aleksandrkotov797 24 February 2021 23: 23
    0
    The only thing that all planes have in common is that they all fly.