"Onyx" instead of "Zircon"

Source: Russian Ministry of Defense, mil.ru

The tests of the Zircon anti-ship missile system did not come as a big surprise. This story did not assume any other development of events. Lots of smoke and fire close up. Tests of the latest hypersonic missile.

While we were reading brief military statements “the speed of 8M was reached, the missile successfully hit the target,” Western experts were able to discern something interesting.

Weapon identification

For the first time, H. I. Sutton, author and publicist of the USNI organization, which studies the development of naval forces in the world, drew attention to this moment. The quality and depth of analysis betrays this man as an expert on Russian weapons. At least he noticed details that are known only to a narrow circle of anti-ship missile (ASM) developers and naval personnel who have experience with this. weapons.

So, in the world there is only one unique type of RCC. The key external feature of these missiles is the detachable air intake cover with jet engine nozzles, which are responsible for the orientation of the anti-ship missiles after launch.

This is the Russian P-800 Onyx with its export variations (Yakhont / Brahmos).

Complex rocket head

The mysterious design of the Onyx is a consequence of its marching supersonic speed. The rocket consists almost entirely of a ramjet engine (ramjet), around and inside which the rest of the systems are located.

The main engine P-800 develops nine times more thrustthan the engine of a cruise missile "Caliber". Due to its energetic capabilities, inaccessible to any other anti-ship missile system, "Onyx" is capable of developing speeds at high altitudes 2,6 times the speed of sound!

This is an unexpectedly large and long-range missile that stands out sharply against the background of other anti-ship weapons of the 500st century. Capable of hitting naval targets at a distance of XNUMX+ km. In terms of launch weight, Onyx is five to six times heavier than a typical Western-style anti-ship missile. And almost twice the mass of the long-range cruise missiles "Tomahawk".

The mass of the "Onyx" with the launch cup reaches 3,9 tons, and the length is 9 meters. That is already close to the limit values ​​for the shipborne firing complex (UKSK, 3S14). In which vertical launch units (VLR) are used with a length of 9,5 meters.

It should be noted that the vertical cells of the UKSK are longer than the cell of the American UVP MK.41. The difference is significant, it ranges from 1,8 to 4 meters, depending on the modification of the Mark-41. There are also differences in transverse dimensions.

Not a single NATO ship, even in theory, is capable of launching a 9-meter supersonic missile.

The dimensions of the domestic UKSK are directly related to the presence of a "long" anti-ship missile system with a body diameter of 670 mm in the ammunition load. Other loading options provided by the Kalibr family of missiles do not require large launchers. "Calibers" can even be launched through a standard 533-mm torpedo tube.

Supersonic anti-ship missiles have a lot of stringent requirements. Both for the design of the rocket and for its carriers.

"Caliber", like all subsonic missiles (X-35, "Harpoon", "Tomahawk", LRASM), uses a compact air intake that opens after launch in the tail section. The front part of the KR hull is entirely occupied by the guidance system blocks and the warhead.

Everything is different with Onyx. In the nose of the rocket there is an air intake cone. It houses the GOS, onboard control equipment and a warhead. The diameter of the cone exceeds that of the fuselage of the American Harpoon rocket.

Rocket layout: 1 - seeker; 2 - onboard control system equipment; 3 - warhead; 4 - fuel tank; 5 - steering drive; 6 - starting and accelerating engine.

To prevent foreign particles from entering the engine at the time of start, the air intake is closed with a massive cover. But the creators of Onyx went even further. Jet engines of the attitude control system are built into the cover, which are triggered after the anti-ship missile system leaves the launch shaft. Their short-term impulse turns the rocket into a horizontal position, in the direction of flight towards the target. In the next second, the cover is reset, freeing the air intake of the main-speed ramjet engine.

"Onyx" is such one

No, he's not alone. Another rocket appeared in the world with the same algorithm for launching operations. On the presented frames from the ZM22 "Zircon" tests, one can see the warhead, which is very similar in form and content to that of the Onyx rocket. Pay attention to the moment the rocket leaves the UVP.

Further, observing the start-up process, we can clearly see the operation of the orientation engines in the head of the "Zircon" with the subsequent separation of the air intake cover.

Launch of the Onyx anti-ship missile system. Slow motion.

Based on these observations, we can conclude that the Zircon design uses solutions similar to the 2,6-swing Onyx.

The use of a drop cover clearly indicates the presence of an air intake at the head of the rocket. There can be no other reason to cover the warhead during the start. Consequently, the air channel passes through the fuselage, through and through, to the engine installed in the tail section.

This means that in its appearance and layout, the hypersonic Zircon is much more in line with Onyx. And it does not at all look like an apparatus with a wedge-shaped asymmetric body and a narrow box-shaped air intake under the fuselage. Which for several years was passed off as "the alleged appearance of a hypersonic anti-ship missile system."

The real name of the experimental aircraft is "Waverider".

Unanswered Questions

Every detail raises questions. Here is a system of three equations:

1. The appearance and layout of the "Zircon" were similar to the existing anti-ship missile "Onyx". The fact of using the same technical solutions (the head cover with orientation motors and the layout with an axisymmetric air intake) was recorded.

2. The values ​​of the mass and dimensions of the "Zircon" cannot (at times) differ from the parameters of the "Onyx", due to the restrictions imposed by the dimensions of the universal launcher of the frigate "Gorshkov".

3. "Zircon" has 3 times higher speed (8 Machs instead of 2,6).

Based on real-life examples, we know that an increase in speed to the "ridiculous" 2,6 speed of sound entailed radical changes in the design of the Onyx - compared to the subsonic "Caliber".

For example, a supersonic rocket required five times the specific thrust.

Indeed, who would now believe the price that had to be paid to achieve Mach 2,6? Today's audience is spoiled by promises of 8 and even 9 speeds of sound. This is strength, this is scale!

But back to harsh reality.

"Onyx" - the fastest of the really existing anti-ship missiles - has characteristics at the limit of the design capabilities of both the rocket itself and its carriers. The last reserves were “squeezed out” from the technologies of our time. The mass of the Onyx warhead has been reduced by 1,5 times compared to the lighter Caliber. The hull is converted into a ramjet air intake. The space of the combustion chamber of a ramjet engine (before it is turned on at a speed of 2M) is used to accommodate a solid propellant booster. If a separate booster was used, like the Caliber, such a rocket (due to its length) would not fit on any ship.

If this is 2,6 times the speed of sound, how much more powerful did the Zircon need to reach Mach 8?

And what changes should have taken place in the appearance, layout and size of such a rocket? Compared to the "slow" supersonic P-800?

The main question is, how different is the ZM22 Zircon from the Soviet Onyx missile?

Has anyone thought about this?

The history of "Zircon" began with statements about the achievement of a speed of Mach five or six. In the winter of 2019, applications began to arrive on the achievement of 9M. Now we decided to stop at 8M. I wonder if the officials who give the Mach numbers in no particular order understand that these numbers mean different aircraft?

Different designs!

A hypersonic ramjet engine for a speed of 8M cannot operate in another mode, at a speed of 6M. The fuel-air mixture will not have time to burn in his chamber. Otherwise, the 6-fly motor will be choked with air at eight speeds of sound.

An example is the X-43 overseas program for the creation of hypersonic vehicles with a scramjet engine envisaged the construction of three different concepts. For flight speeds equal to 5M, 7M and 9,5M.

Another point is related to acceleration to the speed at which the scramjet operation becomes possible. As follows from the example with the X-43A apparatus, its acceleration to the operating speed (9M) was carried out using a 19-ton Pegasus launch vehicle.

The slower X-51 Waverrider was not bad either. Its booster stage (up to a speed of 5M) was a short-range ballistic missile ATACMS.

It remains to add that both spacecraft were launched not from the surface, but from the stratosphere. Where were delivered by the B-52 bomber.

The experiment once again proved the extreme energy consumption of flights at hypersonic speed.

Returning to Zircon, it is unclear how such energetic capabilities were achieved in the size of Onyx?

Simpler questions related to thermal protection at a speed of 8M can be ignored in this case.

The above facts are the reason that the appearance of "Zircon" is kept in strict confidence. At a time when other samples of top-secret, but really existing weapons "shine" in all the details. If a promising rocket turns out to be a copy of Onyx, then questions of specialists will inevitably follow, to which no intelligible answer can be given. After all, the solutions used to create the Onyx did not even allow us to approach the speed of 3M.

Weapons of yesterday?

Eight speeds of sound mark the beginning of a new technical era. Such a "product" cannot have anything in common with existing anti-ship missiles.

Today the situation is as follows.

On the one hand, the physics and the observed similarity of "Onyx" with "Zircon". So much so that the footage of the launch of the hypersonic missile is indistinguishable from the launch of the Onyx.

On the left is the launch of Zircon. On the right is an Onyx launched from the Bastion coastal missile system.

On the other hand, there are statements by “effective managers”. The very same people who "failed" most of the programs for the creation of traditional weapons.

No other evidence of the existence of an 8-fly rocket has yet appeared.

You can ignore the severity of the indicated facts and increase the speed of the Zircon by a few more Machs. But we need an honest and unbiased assessment.

The stream of cheers cannot hide the obvious and obvious contradictions in the story with "Zircon".

What weapons will our Navy have to fight?

Test launch of the Onyx anti-ship missile. Photo: npomash.ru

Comments

[Vladimir61]

There are many questions asked! I might add, "Are we (and our sworn friends) really shown what we (and they) expect to see?"
Of course, I really want to believe that we really succeeded, and we have (will) have something to answer the foe.

[Aerodrome]

when someone in VO talks about "cartoons", "patriots" immediately drive him into their slippers, they are not interested in questions, they have Putin, and that's enough. really ... "pink ponies" ...

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Aerodrome

they have Putin, and that's enough ... really ... "pink ponies" ...

And everyone should know this:

 Show / Hide text

"Onyx" instead of "Zircon"

And you get ready. Next in line (on the way):
"T-72M3" instead of "T-14" or
"Mig-35" instead of "Su-57" or
"Admiral Kuznetsov": repair until 2022 or disposal ...
Knowledgeable people in uniform of generals (not fake, but real) have long been saying that the backlog of Soviet developments is not endless, but it is possible to cut "budget loot" for them, at least until 2036.

[carstorm 11]

seriously?))) touched the Soviet is good. he exists. Did you create all the modern stuffing there too? as if t 72 b 3 udelaet t 72b of the Soviet period that he does not even understand where it came from, because from the Soviet there only the corps remained. successful platforms are modernizing all countries. it is an axiom. a new one is created only when the entire modernization resource has already been exhausted and without creating something new it is no longer possible to get performance characteristics for modern requirements. all Soviet developments could not have had a future 30 years after his death without tremendous work to improve these very developments. new materials. new technologies. let your knowledgeable people in uniform go to the academy to study again. apparently according to the old Soviet tradition, they drove an ox there. well, or you just do not invent them out of your head.

[Old tanker]

The modernization potential of the T-72 has long been exhausted. And the "new" modernized T-72B3 is inferior in a number of parameters to the T-90 (originally T-72BU) in a number of parameters.
Namely, there is no independent sighting and observation complex of the commander, a closed ZPU, an optical-electronic suppression complex even in its truncated Indian version (without OTSHU-1-7 searchlights). As a matter of fact, the MO went according to a cheaper simplified version. Instead of upgrading the T-72B to the T-90. In reality, the latest modification of the T-72 is the recently adopted T-90M. There is nothing further to squeeze out of the good old T-72.
PS Well, who showed whom the Hero of Rossi (posthumously) Jr. l-t Neff. After making a few modernized Georgian T-72s on the old T-62!

[carstorm 11]

I agree and disagree. Buried ZPU are you talking about remote?) So it only appeared at 90 M and went from this year. As well as the absence of a COEP at 90 m with a searchlight, it should also tell you a lot. And b 3 for 8 years the combat units have been strengthening and more than a thousand have been made. That allowed them to quickly increase their combat readiness en masse. There was neither time nor opportunity to wait for much more expensive options. Well, about everything they squeezed out of 72, it was as if the Ministry of Defense in the person of the armored and the plant that they were doing with you somehow did not agree. I think their opinion is more authoritative for me.

[umah]

A hypersonic ramjet engine for a speed of 8M cannot operate in another mode, at a speed of 6M. The fuel-air mixture will not have time to burn in his chamber. Otherwise, the 6-fly motor will be choked with air at eight speeds of sound.

Nonsense! The speed of formation of the air wedge is regulated by the displacement of the central body (increase-decrease in the air intake), the fuel supply can also be adjusted.
Yes, there are great difficulties associated with this, but engineers are needed to overcome them.

[umah]

And one more thing: the launch of Zircon and Onyx are similar, but the trajectories are different. Onyx runs parallel to the ground / water, and Zircon goes up, possibly into the stratosphere. Probably, flight in the upper atmosphere (among other technical solutions) helps Zirkon accelerate to M8.

[Alex777]

Nonsense! The speed of formation of the air wedge is regulated by the displacement of the central body (increase-decrease in the air intake), the fuel supply can also be adjusted.

And one more thing: the launch of "Zircon" and "Onyx" are similar, but the trajectories are different. Onyx runs parallel to the ground / water, and Zircon goes up, possibly into the stratosphere.

Onyx can fly in different ways. If a low-altitude trajectory, then it flies as you said. The range, in this version, is significantly shorter.
But in my opinion, the author missed a much more important point:
if the launched rocket did not show a speed of 8M, then the tracking launches "partners" would have long ago raised a howl that "the Russians do not fly cartoons."
Since they are silent, it almost certainly means that 8M have seen and are sad.
And yet - we shouldn't show Zircon to anyone on TV!
Did you fly? Flew. Are partners silent? They are silent.
So everything is going according to plan.

[umah]

At what moment the trajectory changes (at startup or during acceleration), I have no data. All I can do is analyze the launch frames, and they differ in the videos

[Alex777]

I suppose you paid attention to the trajectory correctly.
As far as I understand, Zircon should climb with a candle and it goes 28 km.

[hydrox]

So after all, in real life, no one knows how many Machs the rocket has gained by the end of the trajectory - and to talk to us all are successful.

[Alex777]

The states know. Just believe it.
The practice of showing something strong to "send a signal" was not born yesterday.
Even EBN showed something secret when our airfield in Serbia was occupied. Not to be disturbed there.
They weren't bothered in the end.

[3danimal]

Just believe it.

This is a dangerous business, believe. Faith turns mountains in the imagination of adepts, but the rest of the world does not know about it
On the contrary - to doubt, compare data from different sources, wait for convincing confirmation and only then draw conclusions.
Everyone saw the Waverider from different angles and at different stages of the flight. His photo was adorned with all the articles "about the Zircon that is about to appear in service" (here he is expected "next year" since 2010).
We are waiting for similar photos and videos of our wunderwaffe.

[Alex777]

What does faith have to do with it?
There is a normal game on the western nerves.
We don't need to rivet a bunch of all kinds of stuff, and then let this money and resources under the knife?
The sooner we start negotiations on a reduction or limitation, the better.

[3danimal]

I wrote here that this could be an attempt to recoup SDI. But I wouldn't really hope it would ruin the USA

[Alexander Sosnitsky]

There is one more proof: measurements by the enemy. Unless they're in cahoots. If there is a conspiracy, then the end of everything. "The king is not real"

[bayard]

Quote: umah

All I can do is analyze the launch frames, and they differ in the videos

I also just analyzed the footage of the exit from the Zircon UVP, and it is not identical to the Onyx hull. Although both one and the other have a "head" - the so-called. an orientation head unit, dropped after the missile body is tilted onto the target. There are certain hull anomalies uncharacteristic of Onyx. Hence, the conclusion is that what takes off is definitely not Onyx, but the launch scheme is similar and is almost identical to the "head unit of orientation", which is reset after doing it. But the missile bodies are different.

[GRANATE-19]

I agree with you 100%! This is information of "Special Importance" and no one will give out the type of product if it helps the sworn "partners" at least somehow approach our developments.
Well, the means of objective control, our sworn "partners", showed all the previously expressed swings at Putin's birthday V.V.
Otherwise the barking would be like a kennel! And this would come both from the local "liberation" and from the overseas military-technical literature, which is often not inferior in knowledge to "ours" above.
Well, technical solutions are one today, and tomorrow they are different. Today they work - HERE, and tomorrow they will be forced to work differently. That's why we have engineers and scientists. By the way, Soviet and Russian weapons are often distinguished by their simplicity and technical innovations based on this very "prostate".
In general, if necessary, then the iron would fly on hypersound, the only thing it is made of and which engine is the basis of the movement (sarcasm).
Sincerely.

[Victor Demchenko]

respected! no offense: SIMPLE and SIMPLE are different things. I will not go deeper, but! one is a narrow-minded person who believes in everything (other interpretations are possible), and the second is a gland in a man's body, which is responsible for the ripening of sperm ...

[Aviator_]

Probably, flight in the upper atmosphere (among other technical solutions) helps Zircon to accelerate to M8.

Naturally, high speeds are possible only at high altitudes. At low altitudes, there are significant restrictions on the velocity head, and more than M = 1,5 (with a huge waste of fuel) cannot be achieved at all.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: umah

And one more thing: the launch of Zircon and Onyx are similar, but the trajectories are different. Onyx runs parallel to the ground / water, and Zircon goes up, possibly into the stratosphere. Probably, flight in the upper atmosphere (among other technical solutions) helps Zirkon accelerate to M8.

You write nonsense.
Onyx, when flying at a firing range of over 100 km, must go into the stratosphere.
Low-altitude flight at an altitude of 5 to 30 meters gives a firing range of no more than 100-120 km.

[Christophe_Nicolas]

Hypersonique, grande portée, technology non conventionnelle.

L'hélice double contrarotative SV-27, fournie par SPE Aerosila, est entraînée par une turbine à quatre étages via un arbre relié à un engrenage réducteur à planétaires, contenant également un capteur de poussée et un mécanisme pour prevenir l'accélération du rotor.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivtchenko-Progress_D-27

[Umalta]

I agree, but I am surprised that the conclusions in the article are made on the basis of a "competent" Western analyst, who, among other things, has a propaganda task.

[3danimal]

The central body must have a unique shape for each mode, besides, how will you cool it?
The same goes for the shape of the combustion chamber and the fuel supply system: they have not yet been made universal.
IMHO, Belief in Zircon is based on complexes and the desire to radically surpass the much richer and more industrial and technologically powerful USA (which does not have to throw all its efforts to maintain these capacities).

[Old tanker]

Remote sechas is called carried out behind the hatch. And on the T-64, T-80UD, T-90 they are mounted on the commander's hatch, but control is carried out without leaving the workplace and without getting out of the tower.

[Old tanker]

So I say that it is a cheaper modernization, instead of the T-1992BU model, which was later called T-72, which was put into service back in 90. That is, a step back. Stupid savings at the expense of efficiency.

[storm]

Since 2010, it was possible, without overstretching the budget and stably loading UVZ, to purchase 100 new T-90SMs and modernize 50 combat T-90As each.
And then Shoigu would not have to bend his heart and lie about 50% of modern technology by 20g

[carstorm 11]

By 2011, the number of tanks meeting the requirements of the new era was zero. Over the years, only 72 b3 received 1200 units. That increased the combat capability of the units at times. T 90 went to the troops only this year. What did Shoigu say wrong?

[Old tanker]

The closed ZPU was installed on the old T-64 and migrated from it to the T-80UD and T-90, but in a much more advanced version. But on the T-72B3 they saved on it. So, if something happens, tank commanders who will try to fire from the ZPU, as in the days of the Chechen companies, will be shot. So as an auxiliary weapon of the NSVT on the T-72B3 in a modern conflict should not be considered. How did the troops massively strengthen the T-72B3? Replacing KDZ "Contact -1" with "Contact-5", and with a smaller coverage area? And the installation of the Sosna-U sighting system, which is inferior in its parameters to Western models?
And yes, do not confuse combat readiness (shit to enter the battle on time) with combat effectiveness (the ability to effectively fight). So the mass deliveries to the T-72B3 troops did not increase their combat readiness. The terms of removal from storage and bringing to combat readiness of old and modernized T-72s have not changed .. but the combat effectiveness of the B3 has not advanced much. In reality, it would be more effective for combat effectiveness to release two times less "Breakthroughs" (T-90M) than the under-modernization of Comrade Shevchenko (former head of the GABTU) T-72B3. Saturate the Western and Southern districts with the T-90M (the first version of which was shown 10 (!) Years ago, already back in 2011), and leave the old T-72 in the Central and Eastern (practically rear) districts. Subsequently, replacing the T-90M in the west with the Armata, transfer the M-ki to the center and to the East.

[carstorm 11]

I spoke specifically about combat readiness. 62 were written off. A massive replacement was needed. Here and now. As if by chance, I served only 80 since Blagi. But 72 I like it. Nice and simple car.

[Old tanker]

And why is the combat readiness of the T-72 higher than the T-90M? The tractor is practically the same. Only the engine is more powerful. Removal time from short-term storage is the same. The reconciliation is also not very different. But I don’t know on which tank it takes more time to install the CDZ plates. But the T-80 in winter wow, what a head start will give to both! He himself served them for almost 20 years. And I like them more than the T-72. For which he studied at the school. In UBG, even at one time, the T-64 was exploited.
Well, at the expense of the simplicity of the T-72 ... I can only say about the AZ. And the tractor in operation is not at all simpler than the 80s. I judge by BREM-1, which was actively exploited in my battalion. There are a lot of problems with maintenance and repair. It is even more difficult to replace the skating rink than on the T-80. It is necessary to press out with a special device. Replacing the engine is still a crap.
And so, the T-72 was good as a mass tank for its time and if we were to modernize it, it was at least to the level of the T-90. What in real life the T-90 was. At first, it was generally called the T-72BU. It was then that he was re-named in the T-90.

[Boris Chernikov]

here is an important point that the T-72 received a new gun and an MSA with a sight ... and that these tanks in the troops of 1 vehicles ... Next, I think they will decide what to do after these vehicles will be 600-any upgrade from KAZ, a new DZ, panoramic viewer, APU and DU memory in the style of somehow or almost T-2M, or the purchase of T-000M ... because there the price will be 90 million and 90 million for about a car

[Old tanker]

The weapon is practically the same. The difference is not tangible in practice. Well, outwardly, no changes at all.

[Boris Chernikov]

oh yes .. you think there are other shells .. yes yes "45th modernization of the t-34" ... yeah

[Old tanker]

What exactly are others that do not fit 2A46M? For the indexes please. Just do not forget to take into account that the cassettes of the automatic loader remained completely unchanged.

[Lion lion]

You are looking at the modernization of the T-72 rather narrowly - the prism of the existing MTO tower design.
But if you move away from the standard and:
1. Change the design of the tower from a small size to a larger one. That will allow you to place the latest systems that do not fit into the tower now.
2. Changing the turret configuration allows you to change the weapon system.
2. MTO - put another dvigun.

The bottom line is only the body, with modernization for a new engine.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: carstorm 11

successful platforms are modernizing all countries. it is an axiom. a new one is created only when the entire modernization resource has already been exhausted and without creating something new it is no longer possible to get performance characteristics for modern requirements.

- Your political credo?
- Is always!

© Ilf and Petrov. "12 chairs"
Axiom, you say? Or pheasants? Looking for your sense of humor is like looking for pearls in dung. You have an "impeccable addiction" that meets all the servile traits. Only, here is the axiom. New things are being created in "all" countries. Little of. There they also manage to release this “new” in sufficient quantity, after which they trumpet about its presence. And in our country, at first they declare the creation of “unparalleled in the world” “nothing”, they promise to equip the troops with it by “....”, and then suddenly they “remember” the untold edge of “modernization” resource ...
Nice person, (although, how cute?) You tell me about:

Quote: carstorm 11

Did you create all the modern stuffing there too?

do not "rub in". Especially when it comes to electronics. I bet that the troops have vacuum tube radio stations and other equipment such as "TA-57" ... Previously, "product number 2" for two kopecks was produced in one version, today there are no options, but the function is one.

[carstorm 11]

The fact that you do not read their special editions and the fact that they trumpet every year about new products and then forget about it, I can not help you. Try it sometime. You will also find there about the modernization potential of their technology. Start with abrams or leopard for example. For some reason it does not bother them and they calmly do it. But of course we cannot do this. Hardcore only! As for the availability, of course there are old radio stations. But a new wagon and a cart with a trailer. I'm not going to rub anything on you. You can think as you like and insert the next video from YouTube. It doesn't bother me much.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: carstorm 11

Me it doesn't care much.

Judging by: "special editions", "tekhniai", "calmer", "available", "vaoor", "in tavlyat", "very good" - this is not so.
And I am of little interest in the opinion of illiterate specialists, whose education I must oppose with first-hand information from the Ministry of Defense.

[carstorm 11]

I am 191 cm tall and weigh a centner. Hands are big and smart is ordinary. I just spell it sometimes. Which is visible and understandable to any person of my build. But I heard you.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: carstorm 11

I am 191 cm tall and weigh a centner. Hands are big and smart is ordinary. I just spell it sometimes.

It looks like you wrote about height and weight here to intimidate me?

Quote: carstorm 11

But I heard you.

Me too ... A large cabinet falls louder, and excitement contributes to the appearance of errors in the text. Therefore your:

Quote: carstorm 11

It doesn't bother me much.

To put it mildly - a bluff, which has been successfully proven.

[carstorm 11]

You seem to think too much about your person))) I just explained to you where the mistakes came from. This excitement is, of course, generally epic)))) I was agitated by the no-name from the Internet))) big top)

[Boa kaa]

Quote: carstorm 11

I was excited about the no-name from the Internet))) big top)

"Guys let's be friends!" (from)

[3danimal]

Large closet falls louder

I will support my fellow big man:
I am CCM in kickboxing (2004) in the weight of 91+ kg. And so often I met people who talked about "a large wardrobe" But they themselves fell quickly and easily. What will the phrase about "small wardrobe" sound like?

[Elturisto]

And what is this argument ...

[Victor Demchenko]

respected! please check your texts BEFORE publishing, Yandex generally underlines the slips in red

[carstorm 11]

When there is time, then of course I will check) but most often it just does not work out) three children and there is no small one for another six months) everything is on the run)

[Boris Chernikov]

Well, in our warehouses, Nagans are also ... this does not prevent the Yarygins from purchasing

[Sofa]

The Soviet backlog is not only the body but also a lot of stuffing that is being modernized, that is, they also complement this human backlog, when people tried for their country not for loot. it has no reserve, therefore it copies. Also, the development of weapons was influenced by two world wars and the cold war.

[carstorm 11]

Someone denies the presence of this heritage?))) It's just that the heritage is something that the next generation does not just use, but actively continues it. 404 is the best example of when the legacy is huge and it was simply destroyed

[Sofa]

Thank you, there is something to use, not everything is completely ruined.

[Boris Chernikov]

but the truth is they still tried "so as not to like the neighboring design bureau", which created a lot of problems in the end

[bad]

Quote: ROSS 42

you can cut "budget loot" for them, at least until 2036

This is what life-giving amendments do!

[mark2]

Knowledgeable people in uniform of generals

Are they local knowledgeable people? There is no one who knows, only HYIP. Pecked power - get a plus, right?

[bad]

Quote: mark2

Pecked power - get a plus, right?

And why should we praise this "power"? For lies and dust in your eyes? Can I still write out gratitude to them?

[Boris Chernikov]

Well, you know better from the couch how to make modern weapons, build factories and steer large systems .. do not tell me, how many billion have you already earned?

[Dodikson]

with all my heart, I sincerely wish you to live the same way the whole country lived in the 90s.

[hydrox]

In vain do you praise the XNUMXs and blaspheme the nineties: if the authorities CONTINUE "resting on their laurels", then in the twenties we will not live even two years, as we will find ourselves in the nineties ...
For a running start, try, according to Forbes, to calculate how many billions of times Potanin is richer than you, and this is all in order for you to understand how much your opinion for the authorities is more microbial than Potanin's opinion, although he is an environmental criminal, well deserving that NorNickel should be taken away from him. and to put himself behind bars for ten years - it is during such a time that life in thousands of square meters will warm up. km of aquatic ecosystems he killed

[Dodikson]

In what time ?

[cmax]

Quote: mark2

Knowledgeable people in uniform of generals

Are they local knowledgeable people? There is no one who knows, only HYIP. Pecked power - get a plus, right?

Power is not only privileges and great opportunities, but also the presence of obligations to people. Here people may not be very knowledgeable, but they live in this country and see the real situation in the country, real salaries in important industries, real pensions, real rich people in a country filling their wallets (more, more, more), you might think it will come in handy in the next world. They are realists, and I don’t know, you know better!

[mark2]

For that fought for it and ran. Wanted like in the west - get your signature. They showed a showcase of capitalism, the country believed that it was the same everywhere and for everyone. But it turned out that the resources and means of production are owned by the remaining units - the labor market.
And I must say right away that there is no need to tell a fairy tale here that the people were against it. The people did not particularly resist.

[El Chuvachino]

Medal of honor to you delusional

[BastaKarapuzik And]

Quote: ROSS 42

backlog of Soviet developments

Can we say that Brezhnev was eating up the backlog of the Stalinist economy? Khrushchev even broke a lot of what was left of Stalin. So who hurt you? Who used it, who multiplied it, and who broke it?

[Boris Chernikov]

yeah .. you do not forget the main thing then when the troops go to the troops to make a face with a brick and turn on the sclerotik .. otherwise I heard these stories about "nothing will happen" about the S-400, about the Ka-52, about the Su-35, about Iskander , about the Tiger and much more ..

[Dodikson]

What technical questions can the technically incompetent US State Department trolls ask?
it does not even occur to them that in the video they are shown not Zircon, but Onyx, and no one showed the launch of Zircon due to secrecy.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Dodikson

it does not even occur to them that in the video they are shown not Zircon, but Onyx, and no one showed the launch of Zircon due to secrecy.

On, Dodik (or Dodik's son?), Look:
https://www.1tv.ru/news/2020-10-07/394580-minoborony_pokazalo_video_puska_giperzvukovoy_rakety_tsirkon
There, due to "secrecy", they did not show the "secret stuffing" of the doomsday plane, which did not prevent ordinary "metalworkers" from stealing equipment ...
But! These are two completely unrelated events !!!

[Dodikson]

and? son Evlampy, tell us how the latest model of a hypersonic anti-ship missile system is connected for which all the intelligence services of the world are hunting and the theft of non-ferrous metal on the plane from which all the secret was removed long before the dispatch was not repaired?
Or have you decided that if you can't fit in the technical part, then you need to in another area?

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Dodikson

or have you decided once

 Show / Hide text

You ... Cats poked you ... You will poke your palm, uneducated hamlo.

Quote: Dodikson

did not show it due to secrecy.

For this reason, "secrecy" was written. We need to look and listen, maybe put letters into words, and words into sentences ... They come to the site ... They neither sing nor draw ... "They poke", they climb into wolves, and a dog's tail ...
It's a pity that people like your company have more

Quote: Dodikson

you can't dress up

[Nikolaevich I]

The BrahMos anti-ship missile system was created on the basis of the Onyx ... A BrahMos-II hypersonic missile is being created on the basis of the BrahMos ... Is it possible, thus, to "catch" the connection between the Onyx and the hypersonic anti-ship missile?

[d4rkmesa]

There is no connection, since Brahmos 2 does not exist, except for pictures and fantasies of Indians. Maybe they were promised something, who knows.

[Dodikson]

Have you seen the photo of the layout of Brahmos 2?
much like Yakhont?

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Dodikson

Have you seen Brahmos 2?
much like Yakhont?

1. Duc, and children (especially grandchildren ...) are often not like their parents! 2. My statement is not without irony ...

[3danimal]

The scramjet has a characteristic design that is noticeably different from the ramjet on Onyx or Granite.

[Sofa]

And why then show it, if everything is already clear to everyone, very strange things. Probably for people who watch TV, Kiselev will tell us something else . inspires of course.

[Fan-fan]

Guys, all these cartoons and conversations about Zircon and other miraculous weapons are ordinary propaganda, designed for an ordinary simpleton who believes in all sorts of fairy tales. After all, these ordinary people still believe in the tales that the Khibiny completely "turned off" the American destroyer, and here they carry all sorts of anti-scientific rubbish.

[Sofa]

That's what I mean. People don't know what to survive, the groceries in the stores have taken off, so we will soon look at them. Mishustin threatened with his finger at this and everything will end, just like with gasoline, raised by 3 rubles, decreased by 3 kopecks ...

[Dodikson]

how well the US State Department gave a pointer in the articles where Russia has achievements.
if Russia has success in rocketry, it is necessary to write about expensive products, if Russia has success in tanks, then it should be written that in Norway pensions are higher, if Russia has success in electronics, before it is necessary to write that in Japan life expectancy is longer.
the main thing is to shit more on Russia, shit regularly, shit abundantly, because they pay so well for it ...
well, or is it because of ideological Russophobia?

[Sofa]

Well, if you’re full, then you can, and how you write about your State Department and so on, you need to go to the village, then you’ll start thinking differently.

[Dodikson]

I have been to the villages. especially in the 90s, I remember them well.
They sincerely wish you to live the same way as the whole country lived then.

[Sofa]

Now go and see how people live.

[Dodikson]

I went a month ago, as they lived and live and do not grieve.
I need to tell them that they live wrong, they need to go out more often, there all sorts of sofas will explain to them that they live shitty.

[Sofa]

Yeah, everything is just as you describe the storyteller. People survive without work and go to cities.

[Dodikson]

yes they go and what?
then they come and live.
Moreover, I will tell you a secret. in villages, people no longer live by work but by vegetable gardens and animals.
they can lift them more than you in the State Department.

[Sofa]

Hans Christian Anderson

[Dodikson]

Yes, I am such a bastard that I believe my vile and shameless eyes more than the honest and decent bots of the State Department.

[Sofa]

State Department go to sleep go to bed

[Dodikson]

move away from the mirror.

[Sofa]

The patient is hopeless

[Dodikson]

I believe that I am not hopeless, the State Department does not abandon its own people, and will help in any way he can. or throws? that's why I'm sure that no one will help you?

[Sofa]

What got you fixated on the State Department, look, but soon the nickname will be like that

[Sofa]

Go rest already

[Dodikson]

tell your curator that you have been disclosed, let them give you a new account.

[Sofa]

Yes, you have a State Department persecution mania, go rest

[Dodikson]

I will definitely go to rest, but you must inform the curator about your disclosure.
in the meantime, open your ration whiskey and shout "mei day, mei day, urgent evacuation"

[Sofa]

This is what covers you, take a sedative pill and go to bed. I love my homeland, but you don’t because you are brazenly lying and for you who has a different opinion of enemies, if I am not satisfied with the state of affairs in the country, I will not be silent, then she and Democracy. I have every right to express my opinion. And you don’t love your homeland, this is your window dressing, the propogondist here you don’t know just who. Okay, let's get bored with you

[Dodikson]

Yes, I know that you love your native United States and Israel, I didn’t argue with that, I also love my Motherland, but we have the word Motherland with a capital letter, and you have the word "I" with a capital letter (I, I'm and how you still spell me there).
And how funny, for the umpteenth time, Western propagandists call me a propagandist.
and their pearls, which in half of the cases do not relate to the topic of the article or news at all (in the article where Russia launched a rocket, they write that it was necessary to build hospitals, in an article about Russian ships they write that old people live longer in Japan, in an article about Russian planes they write that in Norway the salary is higher, and so on. they need to screw up any positive news about Russia so that the Russians do not have joyful moments and an opinion is formed that everything is as bad as possible and it will be even worse that we are worthless that we are a people, although we are the people of the winner and the people of the world champion in war) are called "I express my opinion"

[Sofa]

I didn’t travel further than my country, Russia, with a salary of 15000, and you’re probably a regular in the United States and Israel to go for propaganda money.

[Pechkin]

I did not travel further than my country of Russia with a salary of 15000

You put this in your advantage. And the fact that the products have been imitated so that soon you will only look at them. Maybe you get up from the couch and do something, then maybe the salary will not be 15000.

[Victor Demchenko]

I cannot comment on articles that I have not read. but the fact that in Japan, according to statistics, life expectancy is longer than ours is a fact, and it is difficult to argue with this. and also the fact that in Norway the salary is higher than ours .. and why can't I say about it? is that NOT PATRIOTIC? maybe you need to open your eyes and look at the world around you and reality without blinders and glasses, but the way it really is? look at the realities of the optimization of medicine, at the results of the fight against coronavirus, when the results of this very struggle are hushed up in every possible way, when the provision of qualified assistance due to lack of space and the transfer of hospitals to covid hospitals? further poke your nose? or is it enough?

[Victor Demchenko]

Again: for God's sake, stop dogging like tradesmen on Privoz! you look at your "pearls" can become ashamed? if I am not a specialist in this area, then I watch and read what knowledgeable people write, and you, young man, please don’t push the urya-patriotic slogans here, you have heard enough to nausea, and now it’s not very successful to believe our authorities! and after all the promises of our "nullified" all the more ... examples are more than enough in the incompetence and outright theft of our chief executives, but our opposition is somehow ... even hard to find a word, manual or what?

[Sofa]

Do not forget to change your account, otherwise people will not take it seriously

[Uncle Vanya Susanin]

Yes, and the Crimean Bridge was also filmed at Mosfilm, remember

[peter rusin_2]

There are also liberals! They have lost everything, and these are cartoons!

[Lech from Android.]

"Are we (and our sworn friends) really shown what we (and they) expect to see?"

In the video, you can take a closer look at the rocket body when leaving the launcher ... and the fact that this is Zircon is not yet a fact.
Solid fog about the real appearance of Zircon ... the state secret is well guarded.

[The leader of the Redskins]

I have ALWAYS questioned the authenticity of the statements of high officials and "cartoons". Due to the fact that I am a terry materialist.
For my doubts, I constantly play off the minus, but I do not retreat from the principles of my worldview. That's when the enemy admits that even from us, ordinary citizens are hiding, then I will agree with the 8, 9 swings and other loud (hopefully for now) words

[Okolotochny]

Conclusion, you believe the enemy (USA) more. Why don't you live there? Take part in the green card lottery and go to the land of solid truth?

[3danimal]

And where is the United States? The naval ones promised to build frigates in a short time (we have 2 in 20 years), the army ones - 2000 Armata tanks by 2020, the Air Force nicknames - 50-100 Su-57s in service by 2020.
So, willy-nilly, you begin to doubt the promises, otherwise - what kind of rose-colored glasses should you have on your face?

[dauria]

... Due to the fact that I am a terry materialist.

More like a double pessimist. There is a problem with a ramjet - combustion in a supersonic flow. Otherwise it is impossible - the resistance when braking the air is too great. But it is being solved, and it seems to be successful. So there are no "anti-scientific" fantasies.

Scramjet 58L. Axisymmetric hypersonic ramjet engine.

In February 1998, 2 fire tests of the chamber were carried out at the CIAM stand. On 12.02.98/6,35/77, a flight test of the engine (as part of the "Cold" hypersonic flying laboratory) was successfully carried out, during which the speed of Mach XNUMX was achieved for the first time in the world. The engine running time was XNUMX seconds. The combustion of hydrogen in the combustion chamber took place in a supersonic flow

[A1845]

Quote: dauria

combustion of hydrogen took place in a supersonic flow

liquid hydrogen is an excellent choice for ship missiles

[tlauicol]

liquid hydrogen? let's say.
but in order to accelerate a 1.2-meter product (without a warhead, without a seeker, without controls, etc., etc.), an 11-meter accelerator was needed - the s-200 rocket

[3danimal]

You know, it looks pretty pathetic in comparison with the X-51 program.
Obviously, these tests were not complete enough to create a finished anti-ship missile system. It looks only like a certain initial stage, beyond which there was not enough budget.
By analogy: back in the early 00s, a small test railgun was shown. 15 years later ... - his.
Whereas BAE are busy with full blown samples with very high specs (YouTube is full of videos).
We never saw the Russian test program for the X-51, which must inevitably precede the appearance of a rocket with the characteristics declared in the advertisement.
Conclusion: most likely, we are dealing with disinformation - a response to the SDI program of the last century.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: Vladimir61

Are we (and our sworn friends) really shown what we (and they) expect to see? "

And what are they showing us? I don't know what you saw there ... perhaps your imagination is more playful ... and I am "thunder and lightning"!

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Vladimir61

There are many questions asked! I can add,....

And some questions can be answered. For instance:

.... Other evidence of the existence of an 8-fly rocket has not yet appeared ...

A statement made after the test launches of this missile at the range. The launch time is known, the distance to the range is known, and the time when the missile covers the target is known. The polygon and the launch site are controlled by our "friends", so it is quite reliable information. You just have to count.

[voyaka uh]

So they counted. The speed turned out to be about 5 MAX.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: voyaka uh

So they counted. The speed turned out to be about 5 MAX.

That is, not lower than 5 MAX, since the acceleration section + route could not be direct. And where there is 5 MAX, then 8, on the part of the rocket route, do not look fantastic at all.

[voyaka uh]

8 MAX can be obtained at the top of the ascent to an altitude of 28 km.
Lifting with a solid fuel booster.
And then - a gradual decrease in speed on the Onyx ramjet engine.
And getting the average value for the flight: 5 MAX.
But, as the author noted, such a booster will not fit into a container.
Since the body of Onyx, consisting of a direct flow, is long, it takes
the length of the entire container. And the video shows the rapid transition of the rocket into
level flight.
Something does not fit in the video and the stated performance characteristics.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: voyaka uh

Lifting with a solid fuel booster ....
....... But, as the author noted, such a booster will not fit into a container.

This means that the acceleration booster is only up to the starting speed of the ramjet engine, and then, the acceleration is due to the ramjet engine, then the dimensions of the acceleration booster will be acceptable.

[voyaka uh]

It is possible. This point of view is shared by the authoritative "Old 26".
Still, the unusual classification looks very suspicious.
the appearance of Zircon ...
Despite the fact that the assembly of the ultra-modern Su-57 is shown in all details.

[tlauicol]

Quote: voyaka uh

It is possible. This point of view is shared by the authoritative "Old 26".
Still, the unusual classification looks very suspicious.
the appearance of Zircon ...
Despite the fact that the assembly of the ultra-modern Su-57 is shown in all details.

the straight-through can accelerate, say, from 1 to 3max. How will the scramjet do this? it's not even a question of the amount of fuel, but how will it burn at 2,3,4,5..max?

[voyaka uh]

"Old 26" claims that if a rocket is dispersed with
booster to 4-5 MAX, then further its scramjet will be able to hold out its speed
up to 8 MAX. At the same time, the booster will be small, and the rocket is also small.
All together - within 9 meters.
In this case, questions arise about the missile warhead. There is no room for him.
And about the location of the control unit. In the red-hot bow
electronics will burn instantly. And the warhead will explode. And the aft part is the engine.
The Americans had no warhead, and the electronics were in the back.
The rocket was long.

[DrEng527]

Quote: Vladimir61

show what we (and they) expect to see

exactly!

[Boris Chernikov]

this is called questions for the sake of questions .. and in fact what? "zircon looks like onyx!" .. and how does it look like? the presence of a cover? what else? that uses the Onyx orientation scheme? well, so it makes sense to reinvent the wheel, anything else can’t be said because there is no information, all the exercises took place in cloudy weather and on the footage in fact you can see a little more than nothing .. about "effective managers" .. I wonder when Army General Gerasimov is called so ... all the phrases about Mach 8-9 stem from the opinion of "experts" of different sizes who sit on top of each other ... some measure the flight time and distance, other altitudes ... although scientists directly said that the speeds in so many swings they reach at high altitudes ..

[mister-red]

Are we (and our sworn friends) really shown what we (and they) expect to see?

Reading the article, the same thought occurred to me. The rocket is so secret that even a video of the launch can provide food for information, which was proved by an American expert.

[Tcheluskin]

Supersonic anti-ship missiles 3M-55 Onyx with a ramjet engine: up to 3M at high altitudes. Air enters through the nasal air intake, flows around the "combat" compartment with the seeker, warhead and control system, and enters the engine.

PKR 3M-54 Caliber with a supersonic solid-propellant 2nd stage: up to 3M when approaching a target at low altitude.

Now let's cross Onyx with the 2nd stage 3M-54 Caliber ...

[Santa Fe]

Now let's cross Onyx with the 2nd stage 3M-54 Caliber ...

You will launch from Baikonur

Let me explain in detail:
"Supersonic solid-propellant stage of Caliber" is a detachable warhead weighing a couple of hundred kg. Detaches near the target.

Difference between payload?
In the first case, a warhead weighing a couple of hundred kg
In your proposed case - a 3 ton rocket

[tlauicol]

well, not a couple of hundred, but 500 kilograms, probably ..
Have you seen a new launch, Oleg? I may be wrong, but I think it's the same. Onyx da Onyx Why is everyone so excited?

[Santa Fe]

well, not a couple of hundred, but 500 kilograms, probably ..

In this case, it does not matter

We are talking about the final leg of the flight, lasting a couple of tens of miles. None of this applies to Zircon

And there are suspicions that the detachable warhead is also a fairy tale-Wishlist, from the real anti-ship missiles of the Caliber family, only a subsonic CD was created, an analogue of the Tomahawka-TASM

[Tcheluskin]

In the first case, a warhead weighing a couple of hundred kg

Onyx has only a warhead mass - 300 kg, and the "combat" compartment also includes a seeker and a control system.

We compensate for the greater mass of the combat stage taken from the 3M-54 by reducing the mass of Onyx's fuel - now it will not fly all the way to the target, but only the first part of the path.
Perhaps (?), In the combat stage, you can use a lighter infrared / optical, and / or a fuel charge of greater energy, but less mass instead of the radar seeker

We are talking about the final leg of the flight, lasting a couple of tens of miles. None of this applies to Zircon

We accelerate the Onyx solid propellant stage to an altitude of 20 km and a speed of 3M and separate it. If a step above the water can fly 20 km and accelerate from subsonic to almost 3M; then in the stratosphere it is quite capable of accelerating from 3 to 6M and rising to an altitude of 40 km. And then fly like a guided projectile, or at low thrust.

It seems to me an elegant and feasible scheme, in which the advertised range and maximum speed.

And there are suspicions that the detachable warhead is also a fairy tale-Wishlist, from the real anti-ship missiles of the Caliber family, only a subsonic CR was created

On the Internet, they answer that it is the 3M-54 anti-ship missile system with a detachable stage that is used on our carriers. And the subsonic 3M-54E1 with a length of 6 m was created only for export, for potential compatibility with short western torpedo tubes.

[Santa Fe]

We compensate for the greater mass of the combat stage taken from the 3M-54 by reducing the mass of Onyx's fuel - now it does not fly all the way to the target.

They tell you, this is a detachable warhead near the target
And she fly 10 miles

The rest of Caliber's path is subsonic

On the Internet, they answer that it is the 3M-54 anti-ship missile system with a detachable stage that is used on our carriers

Not a single fact confirming the existence, not a single test on a sea target

can fly 20 km and accelerate from subsonic to almost 3M; then in the stratosphere it is quite capable of accelerating from 3 to 6M

Can not.
3M and 6M are different missiles, different designs

[Tcheluskin]

3M and 6M are different missiles

"Miscellaneous" no more than 5M Iskander and 10M Dagger)

Not a single fact confirming the existence, not a single test on a sea target

Photo of the launch. The silhouette of the anti-ship missile can be seen.

[img]https://cdn25.img.ria.ru/images/155820/76/1558207643_0:0:3077:2048_1440x900_80_1_1_7560f24eca05b9968df955e5b88526d8.jpg.webp?source-sid=rian_photo[/img]

[3danimal]

Miscellaneous "no more than 5M Iskander and 10M Dagger)

Take the trouble to google the speed characteristics of Iskander. There are the same 10m at the peak, the same main rocket engine (this is a BRMD). The Dagger is an air-launched Iskander with a reduced booster.

[Tcheluskin]

Take the trouble to google the speed characteristics of Iskander. There are the same 10m at the peak

Take the trouble to google it, it will take 10 seconds that Iskander's peak speed at the end of engine operation at an altitude of 50 km is ≈2000 m / s, i.e. ≈6 M. (Occasionally, the number 7 M is found, but without references to the source).

The ground Iskander has no 10 M.

[3danimal]

Approx 7m for ground and 10 m for air (the engine runs longer for acceleration, and not for climb).
BUT, most importantly, both of these missiles have solid propellants, you know? There is no problem of fuel combustion in a supersonic air flow, etc.
And for Zircon, it was precisely the presence of a scramjet engine, as on the X-51 Waverider, was declared.

[Tcheluskin]

And for Zircon, it was precisely the presence of a scramjet engine that was declared

Who announced? By the President and other senior officials, the presence of a scramjet is precisely what not declared. And pictures in the media are on the conscience of the media.

[3danimal]

I Forgot that the media are so independent
And without a scramjet, the question arises: how is the overclocking? At the expense of solid propellants? And if a ramjet is used, it will NOT be able to pick up speed of 8m.

[Tcheluskin]

how is overclocking?

As I wrote above, my hypothesis is a 2-stage scheme: up to 3+ M - ramjet stage aka modified "Onyx", up to 6+ M - modified 2nd solid propellant rocket engine 3M-54 "Caliber" rocket stage.

[3danimal]

Then the question is: how does all this fit in the size of Onyx (because nothing else fits into the UKSK cell)? And where is the 3rd stage located ??
The 3M-54 saves size due to the subsonic engine and less fuel required on the cruising section. And a light 200kg warhead at the 3M stage (300-400kg warheads were announced for Zircon).
3M is the limit for a ramjet engine.

[Tcheluskin]

How does it all fit in the dimensions of Onyx? And where is the 3rd stage located ??

Well, I already wrote above.

Я I guessthat the last solid propellant stage is located where Onyx has a "combat compartment": seeker + control system + warhead. It is necessary to add a solid rocket motor compartment and small rudders. Due to what they can fit, for example:
- to reduce the control compartment, due to the progress of electronics;
- to reduce the seeker: for example, to use IR / optical, like the Dagger - is justified taking into account the high-altitude trajectory and the obvious focus on large targets (cruiser, etc.);
- to reduce the warhead to ~ 200 kg - is justified taking into account the higher specific kinetic energy of the rocket itself; again, the officials did not announce about 300-400 kg;
- to reduce the amount of fuel in the ramjet stage is justified, since now the ramjet stage only works part of the flight; in addition, the media reported on the use of the new decilin-m fuel;
- to increase the length of the missile - perhaps, the launching frigates 22350, nuclear submarine "Ash", etc. allow;
- to simplify the starting booster - in Onyx it has side gas rudders for the initial inclination of the rocket, and in Zircon, judging by the video, they are transferred to the nose cover and are less powerful.

3M-54 saves size due to ...

The 3M-54 also has a smaller diameter: 533 mm, versus 670 mm for Onyx.

[Tcheluskin]

UPD: I was wrong about the gas rudders, judging by the video of the Onyx launch, he also has them in the lid.

[3danimal]

On attempts to cross 3M-54 and Onyx:
The first is 8,2m long, the second 8m.
We look at the size of the 3M stage 3M-54:

And here is the layout of Onyx:

3M stage with 200kg warhead from Caliber will not fit into Onyx. It is necessary to significantly increase the size of the latter.

to increase the length of the rocket - perhaps, the launching frigates 22350, the Yasen nuclear submarine, etc. allow;

But then it will have to be launched from the launching cruiser Moscow. Or Peter the Great.
It is indicative how much more compact a subsonic anti-ship missile with 400 kg warhead in comparison with the 3M-54. It is the size of one 3M step.
Wouldn't it be better to create an analogue of LRASM and rely on electronics and stealth?

simplify the starting booster - y

It is already as compact as possible - it is placed in the ramjet nozzle.

to reduce the amount of fuel in the ramjet stage is justified, since now the ramjet stage only works part of the flight; in addition, the media reported on the use of the new fuel "decilin-m"

Physics cannot be fooled, the amount of fuel cannot be radically reduced (even by increasing its toxicity).

[Tcheluskin]

3M stage with 200kg warhead from Caliber will not fit into Onyx.

It is not clear for whom I wrote the previous comment on how to place a solid fuel stage in Onyx.

No need to take a straight one-to-one step from the 3M-54. It has at least a smaller diameter than the "combat compartment" of Onyx, as a result of which the elongation is higher.

Again:

Put before your eyes a photo of Onyx in the context of his "war unit". In order to get the Zircon I supposed from this, it is necessary, roughly speaking, to dock to the Onyx "warhead" with another solid rocket motor compartment. How to shove it? Reduce the control compartments, seeker and warhead, reduce the fuel compartment at Onyx, lengthen Onyx (it has a standard length of TPK, emnip, 8.9 m; possibly, the VPU of frigates and nuclear submarines allow even longer).

Physics cannot be fooled, the amount of fuel cannot be radically reduced

Again, I already wrote - on the proposed Zircon scheme, the ramjet stage will only work part of the flight, unlike Onyx, for this reason it is possible to reduce the amount of fuel. Moreover, Onyx flies 400+ km on a ramjet engine alone along a combined trajectory; and Zircon is quasi-ballistic, which again reduces the need for fuel.

And I have already given pictures of missiles above.

It is difficult to reply to comments if you need to repeat yourself.

Wouldn't it be better to create

Well, that's another question, what is better to create.

For me, the optimal anti-ship missile system is the never-created Onyx / Brahmos-mini, 533 mm in diameter and 6+ m long - instead of 3M-54, Onyx and Zircon.

Under it, plus 3M-14 Caliber, you can create more compact UVP with a diameter of 533 mm instead of the current 670 mm. More missiles can be placed on the ship. You can launch it from standard torpedo tubes. Easily hang on Su and even MiG aircraft.

It is not clear why it is needed at all. Its high speed is offset by a longer detection range due to its high-altitude trajectory.

Perhaps Zircon has more political and technological significance than military. As with "Vanguard", for example.

[3danimal]

Reduce control bays, seeker and warhead, reduce fuel compartment at Onyx

At the same time, the maximum range, the ability to maneuver, and the target detection range will be radically reduced.

the optimal anti-ship missile is the never-created Onyx / Brahmos-mini, with a diameter of 533 mm and a length of 6+ m - instead of 3M-54

The maximum range along the altitude trajectory is 290 km, even less along the mixed one.
The mass of 2000 kg (500 kg lighter than the full-size one) still exceeds the subsonic 3M-54E1 (1500 kg), with an incomparable range (especially differing at a low-altitude trajectory), the difference in warhead weight by 1,5 times.
Take 2 or 3 anti-ship missiles, of different range and power classes.
In the event of an AUG attack, E-2D always flies in the sky, which will see a high-speed high-altitude target much earlier. But the unobtrusive version of the 3M-54 at low altitude is too late.

It is not clear why it is needed at all. Its high speed is offset by a longer detection range due to its high-altitude trajectory.

Agree
The dedication of the wunderwaffe command - always goes to the detriment of real combat effectiveness
(If this whole campaign is not planned disinformation in memory of the "SDI program")

[Tcheluskin]

But the unobtrusive version of the 3M-54 at low altitude is too late.

As indicated on the Internet, Avax sees a low-altitude cruise missile at a distance of ~ 150 km. This is ~ 9 minutes of the flight of the transonic CR.

But it needs to be seen by the ship's guidance radar. And Onyx dives under their radio horizon at the end of the combined trajectory. And if anti-aircraft missiles are launched according to the external target designation of the Avax, again, it is necessary that our missile forces see their millimeter seeker, which has a short range. And with an equal target acquisition range, a supersonic CD has an advantage in speed.

I still think that it is impossible to refuse supersonic for anti-ship missiles.

at incomparable range

It is problematic to shoot at an "incomparable" range with a subsonic missile: the target can manage to leave the detection zone of its seeker, especially during low-altitude flight. Yes, and the problem of target designation is, for all types of missiles.

Maximum range 290 km

Perhaps the range <300 km for the Brahmos-mini was indicated simply to fit into the so-called. Missile Technology Control Regime.

For the modernized "big" Onyx-M, indicate the range of 800 km (http://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6924455). If so, then the small Onyx-M-mini could fly beyond 300.

Moreover, the length of ~ 6 m is a limitation of foreign torpedo tubes. And the length of our TA is ~ 8 m.

[3danimal]

Avax sees a low-altitude cruise missile at a distance of ~ 150 km

Provided that it is not stealth. And so the detection range will be noticeably reduced. And the ship's radars will see it much later, there will be little time for a reaction.

it is necessary for our CD to be seen by their millimeter seeker, which have a short range

On an inconspicuous anti-ship missile, the range will be 3 times less
This is more valuable, because the interceptor missile will fly ahead.

It is problematic to shoot at an "incomparable" range with a subsonic missile: the target can manage to leave the detection zone of its seeker, especially during low-altitude flight. Yes, and the problem of target designation is, for all types of missiles.

In the presence of target designation, no problem. But we need the ability to correct course based on new intelligence. This is how it works for LRASM.

Perhaps the range <300 km for the Brahmos-mini was indicated simply to fit into the so-called. Missile Technology Control Regime.

The mass of the warhead (300 kg) is the same, the GOS - 80 kg - the same, with a shorter length. Accordingly, it carries less fuel.

Moreover, the length of ~ 6 m is a limitation of foreign torpedo tubes. And the length of our TA is ~ 8 m.

More about this above. The fuel tank was reduced by 2m.
But we were talking about a compact anti-ship missile of reasonable size and weight, a powerful warhead. And in the unobtrusive transonic version, the range is also decent.
It is indicative: a new strategic bomber is being developed in our country for an inconspicuous subsonic.

[3danimal]

In fact, what is easier is more reliable.
Now the most combat-ready anti-ship missile in the family is the subsonic 3M-54E1.

Carry out R&D to ensure its stealth and equip a multispectral seeker (RL + IR) and you get a universal weapon with a huge number of carriers. (Can be placed on all heavy fighters, submarines, ships)

[Santa Fe]

up to 3+ M - ramjet stage aka modified "Onyx", up to 6+ M - modified 2nd solid propellant engine stage of the 3M-54 "Caliber" rocket.

So stop
Onyx payload no more than half a ton (300 kg warhead + gsn)

2nd stage solid propellant rocket 3M-54 "Caliber".

This is not a rung

This is a detachable warhead with an accelerator, near the target. With a flight range of a couple of tens of kilometers

There is also no confirmation of the existence of such an anti-ship missile with a detachable warhead. In addition to pictures and a set of words. So far, the ZM-54 exists only in the form of a long-range subsonic anti-ship missile system, an analogue of the Tomahawk-V

[Tcheluskin]

Sorry, a full-size picture is not inserted. Google it yourself. Launch of the Kalibr-NK anti-ship missile system from the Vyshny Volochek MRK 21631, January 2020.

[LVMI1980]

did you want the design to be shown in detail? the clip with the start only ILLUSTRATED the start (albeit clumsy).

[Alexander Polonsky]

No matter how the apparatus looked, no matter what base it was built on, no one, including among foreign observers, doubted the speed of the rocket. Not privy to technical details, but I think the flight of Zircon was observed in every possible way.
And the fact that the officials say in disagreement is just not surprising: firstly, probably only a few of them are devoted to technical details due to the super-secrecy of the weapon, and secondly, this may well be a deliberate confusion of the sworn partners.

[Kazimir Prutikov]

"Effective managers" are hard to believe. In fact, the story they tell with "Zircon" may turn out to be fake.

[3danimal]

The key word is "believe."
Much has already been said in different branches that this is either a short-range ballistic missile (with a radar seeker), or an Onyx upgrade.
The question was immediately in terms of dimensions in comparison with the same X-51, which will be no less, but rather even larger (a larger booster for sea launch and the presence of warheads). And the lack of a large-scale scramjet test program.
I had the thought that this was some kind of attempt to settle accounts with the United States for SDI, forcing them to spend money on creating a similar (fantastic, non-existent) weapon.

[Leonidas Grips]

There was one uncovered question. Like a Zircon rocket with a conventional warhead, it is aimed at an aircraft carrier at least at medium range.

[Mars OK]

So where does the discharge of the fairing have to the presence of a ramjet engine in the rocket, maybe there is a rocket engine and the fairing covers the seeker? especially on the hyper sound there is a unique seeker that is not yet known to the world! maybe it is very sensitive to blows?

[Lipchanin]

The article is devastating.
The analysis is amazing.
Nothing more to say.
Thanks to the author

[Dodikson]

licked well, Biden is pleased with your comment.
, because the author simply could not master the idea that no one showed the launch of the real Zircon due to secrecy.

[tlauicol]

Quote: Dodikson

licked well, Biden is pleased with your comment.
, because the author simply could not master the idea that no one showed the launch of the real Zircon due to secrecy.

And you did not even master the thought of the dimensions of the UKSK and missiles

[Lipchanin]

Quote: Tlauicol

And you did not even master the thought of the dimensions of the UKSK and missiles

And he did not read the article. Looked at a movie and that's enough

[Dodikson]

lolische. I mastered the idea of ​​the dimensions of the UKSK and missiles even when you had not even heard of Zircon.

Look to the sky. It should be beautiful.
PS Transfer. We decided to play it safe.
As compensation, the naval mineral is ready for testing.
Views: 1681 | Added by: Dancomm | Date: 15.07.2015

and you on the way do not know what technical progress is and still think that computers are such huge ones, the size of a 2-storey building and a current consumption of 100 kW?
and it will probably be a surprise for you to find out that with the development of technology, the dimensions of products are decreasing.

[Ross xnumx]

Quote: Dodikson

and you on the way do not know what technical progress is and still think that computers are such huge ones, the size of a 2-storey building and a current consumption of 100 kW?

And you do not seem to know that power is measured in "kW". In this case, the power consumption is measured in:

The Russian designation is "kWh", and the English one is "kWh".

And, this is the "current consumption", the strength of which is measured in amperes - in "Ah" ... Well, it doesn't matter! They'll tell you everything in eighth grade in physics, Dodikson. Or Dodikson?

[Lech from Android.]

current consumption of 100 kW?

Mdyaya ... no words.

[Dodikson]

and? I am aware of amperes (since I regularly work with PSU) and kwatt-h, but I always write with abbreviations.
How does this change the content of my post about the fact that Zircon is technically more advanced rocket than Onyx?
Or on the topic of the article I could not grasp at the little things, they say, if I cut it too much somewhere, it means that Zircon has stopped flying?

[ANB]

... And, this is the "current consumption", the strength of which is measured in amperes

The consumed energy is measured in Joules. For convenience, kWh is used. But it is meaningless for electrical equipment, since it can be used in a second or in a year. kWh is used to pay for consumed electricity.
Power makes more sense for an electrical appliance. 1 Watt = 1 Joule / s.
Power shows how much power the device consumes per unit of time. Therefore, the power of the power supplies is indicated in watts and kilowatts.
The strength of the current without voltage does not provide information about the power or the energy consumed. So the power at 1 ampere and 220 volts is equal to the power of 220 amperes at 1 volt.
Pure current without taking into account voltage can only be used to calculate heat release.

[Fan-fan]

Mr. Dodik, I also believe in technical progress and see it around me: a Turkish refrigerator and air conditioner, a camera, a smartphone and a Korean car, a TV, a computer and even a Chinese iron, and where is something Russian? Where is Russian scientific and technological progress?

[peter rusin_2]

So you probably live in the Outskirts? That's why you see this!

[Dodikson]

1) fotik and refrigerator are the same Turkish as the same refrigerator and Samsung TVs Russian. because in Russia they are only collected.
2) you go to any supermarket and see where all this is done, you will be very surprised when you find out that even imported household chemicals such as Ariels, Domestos and Heinkels, as well as all sorts of sneakers and kinders, are made here.
3) you are just trying to screw up Russian technical progress, because there are NO Zircon-level missiles in ANYONE.
the development of our nuclear scientists is at times more complicated than a TV set, which, by the way, the Koreans make on European machines.
our technical progress in the most powerful laser on the planet, which has already begun its work in the field of thermonuclear physics.

[Reserve buildbat]

In the "beloved" USA, you will see the same thing. Globalization, understand
Consumer trash is produced where it is cheaper.

[Lipchanin]

Quote: Dodikson

licked well,

Boldly Also tell me what a denyuzhka

Biden is pleased with your comment

Why not Trump?

because the author simply could not cope with the idea that no one showed the launch of the real Zircon because of the secrecy.

So I did not mean the videos about the launch.
Analytics.
You don’t understand.
You are like a red rag for a bull, comments that run counter to your "beliefs"

[Old tanker]

As well as the launch of the real "Vanguard", "Petrel". Although the launches of the secret "Daggers" and the photo of their appearance is complete.

[Dodikson]

The dagger is not secret, the appearance of the Vanguard is also not secret, because there is all the cimes in the fuel and engine.
but for Zircon, the appearance is very important because thanks to him and the engine, he reaches such speeds

[Old tanker]

Have you seen the photo of Vanguard? Not a cartoon. Don't be confused, the vanguard is not a missile, it is a maneuvering warhead. And oh, how secret it is!

[Dodikson]

oops. You're right, I confused the Vanguard with the Sarmat.

[cmax]

Quote: Dodikson

licked well, Biden is pleased with your comment.
, because the author simply could not master the idea that no one showed the launch of the real Zircon due to secrecy.

You are serious about secrecy, the Pentagon knows about all your secrecy before us. One of the examples of secrecy is a robbed government plane, another is the sale of the C400 to Turkey.

[Dodikson]

darkness ....
I didn’t even know that people can be so tight that they put on a par with the latest developments with the sale of export air defense systems that are almost 15 years old and the theft of non-ferrous metal for aircraft repairs (more than once they wrote that all the secret was removed from it long before it was overtaken for repair)

[cmax]

Quote: Dodikson

darkness ....
I didn’t even know that people can be so tight that they put on a par with the latest developments with the sale of export air defense systems that are almost 15 years old and the theft of non-ferrous metal for aircraft repairs (more than once they wrote that all the secret was removed from it long before it was overtaken for repair)

We found out, felt better ...

[Poganini]

Figase liberda got fought - as many as 26 minuses. )

[qQQQ]

Quote: Lipchanin

The article is devastating.
The analysis is amazing.

Actually, everything is sucked from the finger. The exit of the Zircon type from the PU is not at all a fact that this is Zircon and the current launch, such frames have been shown for a long time. What in fact can be seen from afar is the vertical launch, the orientation of the rocket in the horizontal plane, so this is an obvious decision, in connection with the unification of the launcher. And then, apart from a very fast acceleration and clouds, nothing is visible at all, I personally did not see the compartment of the protective cap. In my opinion, Zircon can be compared with any vertical launch rocket with the same success.

[Siberian 66]

Pleased with the drawing of the alleged "Zircon". Range is indicated in kilometers per hour Desu was prepared by the best specialists

[Thrifty]

Oleg, it’s so good that we followed the path of unification, that we didn’t start producing a variety of varieties. That you don't have to suffer with logistics, with spare parts, that you don't have to change the container for the rocket on the ship. And, most importantly, indeed, the secrecy regime has been observed!

[tlauicol]

Quote: Thrifty

Oleg, it’s so good that we followed the path of unification, that we didn’t start producing a variety of varieties. That you don't have to suffer with logistics, with spare parts, that you don't have to change the container for the rocket on the ship. And, most importantly, indeed, the secrecy regime has been observed!

The secrecy regime is observed only with regard to the question: where is the money for hypersound, Zin?

[Dodikson]

where? Come on, don't let it down, dir the truth to the uterus.

[carstorm 11]

well away we go))) the same effective managers run the launches and release releases on behalf of the Ministry of Defense) again scandals intrigues of the investigation began on the basis of a blurry picture of the exit from the USK))) big top pancake)

[Nazar]

If "it" looks like Onyx, starts like Onyx and flies up to 500 km like Onyx ... then most likely this is Onyx, but is there even that Zircon - this secret is great.

[BastaKarapuzik And]

Don't you believe the authorities' statements? Is this not the purpose of such publications, to undermine public confidence in the authorities? It looks like Onyx, but what should it look like if it is designed to be launched from the same launcher? Is the head part with orientation engines separated? So they are not needed in flight. Well, since it is stated that hypersound, then it is.
Well, how did you achieve this? Of course a secret. My opinion is that the existence of the Shkval torpedo was also hard to believe. At the same time, are the dimensions of the Shkval and the conventional torpedo much different?
Zircon can be bi-caliber, two-stage, from the frames of its launch it is completely impossible to conclude that this is not so.

[Santa Fe]

to undermine public confidence in the authorities?

is it still left?)

Well, since it is stated that hypersound, then it is.

Hooray!

[cmax]

Quote: Santa Fe

to undermine public confidence in the authorities?

is it still left?)

Well, since it is stated that hypersound, then it is.

Hooray!

Almost like in Belarus, the former president said that there is no virus, so no (to the AHL correspondent: you see him, I don’t !!!!)

[BastaKarapuzik And]

Compare specifications Shell C and Torah. Over the past few years, its characteristics have been repeatedly improved. One rocket is 2-stage, the other is not. Why not assume that the Zircon rocket is also 2-stage? This is not counting the accelerator operating right at the time of launch.
As a result, we have the same direct-flow hypersound. There is no reason to show the start of Onyx under the Zircon sign. The Americans are not fools, and they react to this missile adequately, and they themselves declare that they have hypersonic sound. Super Tuper Rocket, as Trump said. It means that we and they have groped for some kind of solution.
Shl. There is trust. Enemies are trying to ensure that it is not. But that's why they are enemies.

[Nazar]

BastaKarapuzikI (Andrey) - Colleague, you will get the answer from two parts
1. I did not write that there is no Zircon at all - I wrote that they could have fired with another rocket and this is normal, why should the whole world show the latest weapons, which are even more in development.
2. On yours - "Don't you believe the statements of the authorities?" - I can answer quite definitely - no, I do not believe them. And here it has nothing to do with any articles, no provocateurs can undermine confidence in the authorities in the way that the authorities themselves do. Examples? The president swore that until the president he raised the retirement age, he swore, of course he lied. He went to the elections in 2018 and told the whole country on TV that he would present the country's development program - he did not present it, again he lied. The lieutenant colonel lies, as he breathes, easily, naturally and constantly. And you mean some kind of "trust".

[cmax]

Quote: Nazar

BastaKarapuzikI (Andrey) - Colleague, you will get the answer from two parts
1. I did not write that there is no Zircon at all - I wrote that they could have fired with another rocket and this is normal, why should the whole world show the latest weapons, which are even more in development.
2. On yours - "Don't you believe the statements of the authorities?" - I can answer quite definitely - no, I do not believe them. And here it has nothing to do with any articles, no provocateurs can undermine confidence in the authorities in the way that the authorities themselves do. Examples? The president swore that until the president he raised the retirement age, he swore, of course he lied. He went to the elections in 2018 and told the whole country on TV that he would present the country's development program - he did not present it, again he lied. The lieutenant colonel lies, as he breathes, easily, naturally and constantly. And you mean some kind of "trust".

Old age already! A man needs peace!

[BastaKarapuzik And]

Quote: Nazar

Why show the whole world the latest weapons, which are even more in development?

It's easier to show nothing at all in this case. Secret and that's it. And since they showed a start similar to Onyx, well, it just means that they start the same way.

Quote: Nazar

And here it has nothing to do with any little articles, no provocateurs can undermine trust in the authorities in the same way as the authorities themselves do.

And nevertheless they (provocateurs) influence, this is an information war.

Quote: Nazar

until he is president, the retirement age will not be raised

We have some kind of strange state of "workers and peasants" who dream of retirement as soon as possible.

Quote: Nazar

The president swore

Where did he swear? I, of course, do not want to find fault with words, but from the president such vows did not have. He just said so - I swear?

[Nazar]

BastaKarapuzikI - You, Colleague, judging by your texts, are relatively young. Therefore, it does not even occur to you that this will affect you. It is not by chance that there is a saying in our native country: “don’t renounce your wallet and prison”. Everyone in his youth is sure, well, this will not happen to me, I can easily provide myself with old age ... but in the end, very few people succeed.
I retired at the age of 60, I had time, But this does not threaten you - at best, at 65, and if you don't get "balls", then in general at 70 tons. Just before you write the obvious nonsense: "they dream of retirement as soon as possible," try to imagine - you are over 60 tons, you were kicked out from work under a plausible pretext, old people are not hired for another job, but you have to pay for a communal apartment, you have to pay a lot for medicines , and it will not hurt to eat ... but there is no pension and the next years are not expected that -
game over?
I myself would gladly do some more work, but after forty-odd years of work, I only have to dig deeper in my garden, what kind of work is there.
There is really no need to find fault with the words - but it was said - the program for the development of the country will ALWAYS be published - before the elections, I lied, as usual.

[BastaKarapuzik And]

Pensioners were "kicked out" from work under the pretext that they have a pension. The adopted laws will not allow in the future to put out of the gates of a 60-year-old. All my acquaintances, retired people dismissed due to "staff reductions", would still work with pleasure. The young people hired in large numbers do not pull, and they want a big salary, and those who could "have gone to the seas." As a result, we have capable, experienced workers put out of the gate, they said, 60, no more, go die.
Do we have a surplus of qualified personnel? Not at all. Every pair of hands should count!
The time is such, you can not scatter personnel. And young people need to learn from someone!
Win together!

[d4rkmesa]

Beware, now you will be minus, adherents of the sect of witnesses of the holy "Zircon". Personally, I believe that the video was shown "from what it was", at the same time trolling the public.

[Poganini]

Are you an adherent of the "no bridge" witness sect?

[d4rkmesa]

Try again, with the pseudo-patriots, I noticed a very limited set of mantras.

[Poganini]

You started with a limited set of mantras, you have a flag in your hands and a drum around your neck. )

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Poganini

You started with a limited set of mantras, you have a flag in your hands and a drum around your neck. )

And you learn in discussions not to compare a gooseneck with a tame boa ...

[Poganini]

Not finding arguments, are we going to rudeness? (I'm talking about yesterday's conversation). Norms for all the scammers.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Poganini

Not finding arguments, are we going to rudeness? (I'm talking about yesterday's conversation). Norms for all the scammers.

You do not understand the arguments ... For you, life is not at all interesting in our life. After all, you really do not live in the Russian Federation, do you?

YOU don’t see that the purchasing power index falls every year - everyone around you can see, but you don’t see ...
Go to any recruiting site like a headhunter and see the vacancies that are there and the level of salaries that are there ...
but you still don’t see it, when a design engineer at KRET factories will have a salary of 22 thousand rubles, which is only 300 dollars.
And in our country, by the way, all goods in the country have been sold for a long time at world prices.
Potatoes, meat, bread, milk, cheese, fish, wallpaper, plinths, furniture, computers, phones, TVs. cars. auto parts, goods for the home, garden and vegetable garden - everything is traded at world prices ..
But you deliberately don't see it.

[Poganini]

It's you, hike, you don't live in Russia. Have you seen at least ONE person in this country working for a salary? I live in Novosibirsk. What other index are you dropping? I see how our apartments are scattering like hot cakes, I can see it. Even if it falls. Can you tell me the country where it grows !? The whole world is pouring from covid (we are smaller than many others) and you demand growth? Yes, it's a pity that the forum rules prohibit referring to our cabinet.

[Nazar]

d4rkmesa - Colleague, if you are afraid of minuses, then it is better not to go to VO

[Sofa]

It turns out that half will turn out to be cartoons. Take the same dagger, the air version of Iskander, the speed is achieved thanks to the moment of 31. All this is still Soviet developments, thanks to the USSR leaving us a military legacy and the possibility of its modernization.

[Dodikson]

why is he flying further than Iskander? also because gladiolus?
and how can he fly faster because of the MiG-31 if his maximum speed is limited by an OWN engine?
and the fact that the Dagger may have a different, more energy-intensive fuel did not come to your head?

[Old tanker]

Because the MiG-31 is, in fact, a booster block that propels the rocket into the stratosphere. The rocket does not need to waste energy to overcome the dense layers of the atmosphere. The Americans are now following the same path.

[Dodikson]

I know without you what an upper stage is and why it is the MiG-31 that accelerates, and not the Il-76, but no plane will give that boost to the speed that the starting accelerator gives, and no plane will increase the maximum speed of the rocket. because it is higher than the speed of the plane.
using Blink allows you to increase the range (it also increases the speed), but not the speed.

[Sofa]

You were clearly told with your little head that the modernization of Soviet weapons therefore flies further. At 31 the first stage is considered an aerobalistic rocket, therefore, without an airplane with such a speed and distance, it will not politit. Cartoons with fairy tales probably looked around.

[Dodikson]

so tell me, what is the modernization. How does the MiG-31 accelerate a missile to 3M with a speed of less than 7M?

[Sofa]

Yes, I'm afraid you won't understand with your little head.

[Dodikson]

understand, let's tell.
and after that I will explain why, for example, the high speed of an aircraft does not in any way affect the MAXIMUM speed, for example, UR of explosives of any range. and after your fairy tales "I will" know why it turns out to be wrong and that AMRAAM, having a maximum speed of 4M, will no longer have a maximum speed of 4M if it is started not from a speed of 1M, but from a speed of, for example, 2M, then everything will start according to your logic from a speed of 2M, AMRAAM will get the maximum speed not 4M but probably 5M?
Yes ?

[Sofa]

To achieve a speed of 10 mach, the rocket must be accelerated by the carrier, namely the moment 31, since this aircraft is most suitable for the role of the first stage, since it can rise into the stratosphere and accelerate it. Then the rocket works as an aero ballistic and picks up speed. saw during the launch from the plane, she goes quickly forward.

[Dodikson]

Why are you telling me what I know without you, you were not going to tell me how to launch the Dagger. and WHY DOES IT FLY FASTER THAN ISKANDER. BECAUSE STARTING WITH A MIGA WHICH IS SLOWER NOT ONLY A DAGGER BUT AND ISKANDER DOES NOT GIVE AN INCREASE IN THE MAXIMUM SPEED.
Caps is clearer? if not, then once again read about AMRAM which has the same MAXIMUM speed when starting at 0.5M speed, 1M speed, 2.5M speed.

[Sofa]

You will check with your friends, I realized no. Learn to talk first.

[Dodikson]

so learn, otherwise I see when you had a hope to lie and not be caught in a lie and a star, you yourself did not communicate like Pushkin

Yes, I'm afraid you won't understand with your little head.

but as I realized that I had completely merged, I decided to turn on the polite, they say I'm not so stupid and I can't answer anything on the technical side, and I don't communicate with boors, although before that, when there was still an opportunity to argue, I communicated with boors with a bang.

[Sofa]

Didn't you start talking like that that your memory fails

[Victor Demchenko]

aeroballisticGuys, I am ashamed to read such comments, I ask you all: well, check your texts, because illiteracy hurts the eye!

[Siegfried]

when a country declares that it has tested a rocket and has reached 8 M, it is also difficult to assume that such a rocket simply does not exist and everyone is held for *****. everyone understands that US intelligence really knows what and the general appearance of the product. The tests are also monitored from space and by radars. I would be very surprised if our country really created noise from scratch ... it is impossible to hide the absence of zircon as such. Americans will calculate at least one chela who should have seen zircon and they will learn the truth for the grandmother, this is inevitable. There and then a lot of people are attracted.
I think this is just brainwashing by showing onyx, just so that no one knows what to think and what is and what is not.

[Dodikson]

Zircon has been designed for over 10 years.
Back in 2013, Dankom wrote that the demonstrators were already being tested and they spent 7 years on fine-tuning.

[Tagan]

Quote: Lipchanin

The article is devastating.
The analysis is amazing.
Nothing more to say.
Thanks to the author

And what is the "awesomeness" and "defeat"? The author is on fire, but it is not entirely clear why. He had only a few parameters from the available input. Based on the picture, he makes assumptions. Who is he, this author, and what does he have to do with the development of missile weapons? Of course, there is nothing more to say)))

[mark1]

I would not be in a hurry with different conclusions. The launch of "Zircon" (or not "Zircon") was monitored not only by our means of control, if something was wrong, a terrible howl would rise. The Hindus, as you know, plan to achieve hypersound on "Brahmos", well, they do not want to achieve this on their own, but with our and God's help (and it will be more difficult for them to fool their heads than us), so it is possible that there is some kind connection between "Onyx" ("Brahmos") and "Zircon". As the saying goes - to see, you have to live, so live and see.

[vadimtt]

Well, I have only one idea how to get Zircon from Onyx with its energy - detonation combustion.

[Svetlana]

Quote: vadimtt

how to get Zircon from Onyx

"The hull has been converted into a ramjet air intake" Another way to get a hypersonic rocket out of Onyx is to use a scramjet with external combustion of fuel. In this case, instead of combustion of fuel in the annular gap, bounded by the walls of the outer and inner coaxial tubes of variable cross-section, combustion will be limited only by a conical wall tapering towards the end of the rocket, like a spindle, hidden inside the rocket exhaust plume. The number of torch-forming walls, the mass and dimensions of the rocket are reduced, so the warhead can be made heavier.

[Mik13]

The use of a drop cover clearly indicates the presence of an air intake at the head of the rocket. There can be no other reason to cover the warhead during the start. Consequently, the air channel passes through the fuselage, through and through, to the engine installed in the tail section.

This means that in its appearance and layout, the hypersonic Zircon is much more in line with Onyx. And it does not at all look like an apparatus with a wedge-shaped asymmetric body and a narrow box-shaped air intake under the fuselage. Which for several years was passed off as "the alleged appearance of a hypersonic anti-ship missile system."

The use of a "drop-off cover" clearly indicates only the use of a drop-off cover, no more. You should not produce essences unnecessarily. The use of a "cover" may be due to:
1. Using ready-made components of the launch system. In order not to spend money on developing new ones.
2. There are also fragile parts ahead of the hypersonic missile that need to be protected at launch. So there is even a very different reason to cover the warhead at launch.

As for the author, I very much ask the site administration to finally begin to indicate the names of the authors at the beginning of the article. So that I (like many readers) do not waste precious time reading some opuses.

[mark2]

I support the requirement to transfer the author's surname. I raised such a question myself

[aszzz888]

You can ignore the severity of the indicated facts and increase the speed of the "Zircon" by a few more Machs. But us an honest and unbiased assessment is needed.

I apologize to ask, and to whom "us"?

For the first time, H. I. Sutton, author and publicist of the USNI organization, which studies the development of naval forces in the world, drew attention to this moment. The quality and depth of analysis betrays this man as an expert on Russian weapons.

And once again I apologize, who gave him such an assessment?

[Jacket in stock]

The tests are carried out near the borders.
European radats and American ships and aircraft are nearby, they see everything, they record everything.
There were 8 swings or not, they know very well.
And the local fortune-telling is simply "so that the public does not forget."

[set of sets]

The fact is that the creation of a global missile defense system, nullifying our nuclear potential, was the fix idea of ​​the American establishment. And huge resources were invested in the implementation of this idea.
For our country, accordingly, it became an idea to fix the creation of missiles that could overcome any missile defense system.
Back in the early XNUMXs, Putin spoke about this and repeated more than once that the one who creates the missile will always be one step ahead than the one who creates the system capable of intercepting this missile.

As a result, resetting their multibillion-dollar missile defense system hit the Americans very hard. Starting from pride and contemplation of their exclusivity. And ending with the collapse of the idea of ​​a sudden global strike on Russia.

And now they cling to any straw that can somehow indicate the absence of hypersonic weapons in us.

[shinobi]

Two years ago, I said that zircon would look like onyx. This form factor is the only one that allows the use of universal launchers already in service. Regarding speed: The expert is either not in the know or outright lying. Rather not in the know. Solid-fuel ramjet engines allow developing and high speeds, have existed since the mid-80s and the problem is not how to accelerate an object, but how to control it at such speeds so that it does not collapse from overloads when maneuvering. And so, by the way, the concept of solid-fuel ramjet (scramjet differs only details) is not new. It was tested in the 3rd Reich. At that time, the optimal look for this type of ammunition was found.

[Svetlana]

Quote: shinobi

how to drive it at such speeds

You can control a hypersonic rocket using a magnetic field by turning a neodymium permanent magnet attached to a gimbal inside the rocket with stepper motors.
Inside the spindle-shaped body of the rocket, a solenoid is placed, wound on a cylindrical or conical tube made of carbon fiber with a neodymium magnet placed on a gimbal inside the tube with a solenoid wound on it. Two outputs of the solenoid are connected to annular electrodes located in the form of electrically conductive refractory belts-electrodes of the Hall MHD generator on the surface of the rocket spindle-shaped body.
During hypersonic flight, the air flow (or plasma behind the hypersonic shock) is additionally ionized and slowed down.
Fuel is injected from the rocket body into the decelerated air plasma flowing around the rocket (it can simply be applied in the form of a solid coating to the rocket body). The thrust impulse arising from the combustion of the fuel is transmitted to the hypersonic rocket through the magnetic field lines and through the exhaust plasma pressure on the rocket tail cone.
Electric current flows through the solenoid from the tail electrode to the nose electrode due to the Hall effect in the plasma flowing around the rocket. The direction of the solenoid winding is chosen so as to increase the magnetic field of the neodymium magnet in the plasma flow around the rocket.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Svetlana

During hypersonic flight, the air flow (or plasma behind the hypersonic shock) is additionally ionized and slowed down.

What school is this witchcraft from?

[KKND]

Quote: shinobi

.Solid-fuel ramjet engines allow developing high speeds, have existed since the mid-80s

What are these engines with 8M + where are they used, names, manufacturer, link finally.

[shinobi]

Maybe I can also send you the drawings? space (7,91 km / s) since 1959, solid-fuel engines since 1962. Now take a calculator and calculate how much it will be in swings.

[Hitmaster]

We can recall the reports a few years ago that an improved high-energy fuel "Decilin-M" has been developed for supersonic (or hypersonic) carriers. That, including due to it, increased the energy of the rocket, and accelerated it to 8M.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: HitMaster

We can recall the reports a few years ago that an improved high-energy fuel "Decilin-M" has been developed for supersonic (or hypersonic) carriers. That, including due to it, increased the energy of the rocket, and accelerated it to 8M.

Don't screw up nonsense.
Decilin-M cannot be used as fuel for Supersonic and hypersonic missiles.
The combustion rate is too slow.

Everything that you would like to know about Decilin-M can be found in this article.
NISTIR 6640. Thermochemical and Thermophysical Properties of JP-10.
Since Decilin-M is a direct copy of the American JP-10 fuel, created for the turbojet engine of cruise missiles.

[dzvero]

The resettable cover with orientation motors is a beautiful and effective solution and a legitimate reason for Russian designers to be proud. Why can't it be used on a new rocket as well? Also, why should this decision prohibit a different bow configuration? At the expense of the same range with Onyx - after all, the speed is higher, i.e. Fuel energy (probably more highly energetic than Onyx) is exchanged for speed, not flight range.
To catch up - if the tests of Zircon were a failure, then in the west they would immediately report it.

[Santa Fe]

Also, why should this solution prohibit a different bow configuration?

Why do you deny the Ministry of Defense the right to lie about the creation of a new rocket and cut funds?

Not the first time

why should this decision prohibit a different bow configuration?

Because hypersound. a rocket cannot have the same appearance as a supersonic
Neither appearance, nor weight and dimensions

Proven on examples of all existing and hypersonic aircraft concepts

those. fuel energy (probably more energetic than Onyx)

Such a rocket, first of all, requires a 19-ton upper stage, and not new fuel :)
+ the issue of thermal protection at a speed of 8M (see table in the article), this means hundreds of kg of ablation protection

[Okolotochny]

Oleg, do you live in the USA? Why are you so concerned about us? Not in the first - remember the reaction of many to VO after Putin's message with the demonstration of military innovations? Do you remember? "Cartoons" our Everything was. The US also "doubted" this. Further, the United States comes out with a proposal / demand to include "shown cartoons" in the START -... Cartoons? Oh well.

[Lirik R]

say counter-revolutionary things)

[KKND]

Quote: Okolotochny

Oleg, do you live in the USA?

Does he live in the USA? He said that in some Russian city.

[Okolotochny]

I don’t know how now, but I used to live "over the hill".

[Vadim237]

"Such a rocket, first of all, requires a 19-ton upper stage, and not new fuel :)
+ the issue of thermal protection at a speed of 8M (see the table in the article), this means hundreds of kg of ablation protection "- There is not enough turbojet engine with high-energy gunpowder and new fuel for the scramjet engine, hundreds of kilograms of ablative material are not needed, since this missile will cover a range of 1000 kilometers in 390 seconds at a speed of 8M, the head fairing will be enough - the nozzle and body made of tantalum carbide has just a melting point of 3880 degrees - the rocket is a one-time piece. Today, Zircon was launched again and you can track the trajectory and nuances

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Vadim237

opla and cases made of tantalum carbide, it has a melting point of 3880 degrees

You kind of wrote it smart.
And some believed you.
But you - you blasted out such nonsense in essence ...

simply because you don't have the slightest understanding of materials science.

Anything hiding behind Tantalum Carbide will be instantly melted.
The tantalum carbide shell itself will remain, but all that is hidden behind it, alas, will not.
For the simplest example, study the melting point of an oxide film of aluminum and aluminum itself. And what problems arise from this in industry and operation.

And do not confuse the structure of the rocket engine nozzle. Well, study them in more detail.

[Vadim237]

You are fooling your head here - the rocket body itself implies the use of heat-resistant materials and tantalum carbide is just thermal protection, which will take on most of the heat during flight in 390 seconds at 8M speed, the body simply will not receive enough heat to lose strength under the action oncoming flow. "Just because you don't have the slightest understanding of materials science." If I am an engineer, technologist, who does not know materials science, but definitely not for me. And yes, I am aware of aluminum oxide film since I was engaged in argon-arc welding of aluminum.

[voyaka uh]

"take on most of the heat when flying in 390 seconds at 8M" ///
----
He will take it, but the case is metal and thin (it has no heat capacity,
like a solid cast iron core, for example) - all the heat will be instantly transferred on.
Where to? - inside - into control units. And they will burn if they are not covered with non-metallic
insulating material. And this material is heavy.
Your opponent was talking about this (albeit rudely, alas).

[Vadim237]

The heat in the required amount does not have time to reach the control equipment in 390 seconds of flight to somehow damage it, part of the heat leaves in the form of radiation, the other part, along with the incoming air flow, and yes, the body there is clearly not thin like the lining material made of heat-resistant alloy with minimal thermal conductivity And yes, no glued ceramic, carbon and silicon heat-shielding tiles and blocks on the body of this rocket were observed when launched from a PC, this is noticeable.

[voyaka uh]

"heat-resistant alloy with minimal thermal conductivity" ///
----
Any metal is based on a crystal lattice. Atoms stacked
very tight. Thermal conductivity is ALWAYS high.
If, as you say, there is no thermal protection in the bow, then there is
there is no warhead, no control unit. Then the question is: where are they?
Let's not argue anymore.
When more information appears, everything will be clarified.

[Vadim237]

And the Zircon scramjet most likely has a plasma ignition of the air-fuel mixture.

[bk0010]

Quote: Santa Fe

this means hundreds of kilograms of ablative protection

The fuel can be cooled by pumping. Also, the flight speed will increase.

[Vadim237]

It is possible to cool the friction surfaces by spraying argon or helium through channels and partially prevent the oxidation of the airframe materials - but this is like an exotic option that is suitable for reusable hypersonic aircraft.

[Maks1995]

Cartoons, cartoons ...
While they are not so hot quality.
1) a real rocket at launch - dust, smoke, dirt scatters, distortion in hot air.
2) a cartoon at the start or flight: there is no dust, no smoke, the flame is even like a needle, there are no distortions in hot air or vortices from gas jets.

3) video editing allowed only recently to combine smoke launch of a real rocket and flight at the start of the "augmented" one. But you can see. Probably optimized for 3d

While fictional cartoons are inferior ...

[Trapp1st]

Often on TV, pictures from the MO that are not related to the text slip through. So there is only one thing to be sure

[tralflot1832]

They say that according to the laws of physics, we should see an inverted picture, our brain brings it to its normal position. Could it be the same topic?

[iouris]

Quote: "What kind of weapon will our Navy have to fight?" End of quote.
Not to be.
In general, you will know a lot - you will soon grow old.

[Operator]

Damn, not an article, but a real circus with horses - by the type of a discarded head fairing, declare the inoperability of the Zircon CD itself

The only fact of life is that not only the author of the article, but also American specialized experts got into a puddle with the definition of technical solutions for the world's first Russian hypersonic missile and, most importantly, a hypersonic ramjet engine.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Operator

Damn, not an article, but a real circus with horses - by the type of a discarded head fairing, declare the inoperability of the Zircon CD itself

The only fact of life is that not only the author of the article, but also American specialized experts got into a puddle with the definition of technical solutions for the world's first Russian hypersonic missile and, most importantly, a hypersonic ramjet engine.

The only fatk in life is that the Operator lives in an alternative universe.
That has already been proved hundreds of times to Andrey-Operator by facts.
But he is not appeased.

[Operator]

It's nice to see how you burn again

[shonsu]

They showed you what they wanted to show, and no one is obliged to explain anything and will not. You can assume anything from "wow!" before "this can't be!" I will only say that so far Putin has not lied, and he will not blurt out anyhow. And if you don't understand something, then they are secrets so that no one knows. ))

[Boa kaa]

Quote: shonsu

I will only say that so far Putin has not lied, and he will not blurt out anyhow.

Yes ... VVP, although the Supreme Commander-in-Chief of the RF Armed Forces, is a political figure. And it is customary for us not to really believe in politicians ... ("Muzhuki are summing up" (c)) It is in the tradition of any demos to be critical of the statements of politicians. This is so, and we cannot get rid of it ...
BUT!!! What reasons do we and the layman have not to believe the report of the Chief of Staff of the RF Armed Forces, who (by definition) is not accustomed to lying, otherwise all calculations will go down the drain! Let me remind you that it is on the calculations of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation that all our "defense" and others, others, and others are based.
Therefore, it is logical to assume that 3M22 still exists. It continues to be tested and will soon be adopted by the Navy. But at the expense of the appearance and parameters, you can (for proof!) Speculate what the author did.
IMHO.

[Fan-fan]

And why make such huge missiles, I counted only 16 launchers, and the American destroyer has 64 launchers. What is more effective, to get one Zircon or 4 Tomahawks on board?

[slm976]

What is more effective, to get one Zircon or 4 Tomahawks on board?

Where did you see on the American destroyer anti-ship Tomahawks?
The tomahawk is now a purely tactical RC, with work on the surface, at predetermined coordinates ... it will not work to shoot at sea targets.
The Americans have Harpoons in service with the BNK (not on all series of destroyers) ... and that's it.
So, for now, ONYX is more effective ... since Zircon has not yet been adopted for service and there is not enough information about its effectiveness.

And why make such huge missiles, I counted only 16 launchers, and the American destroyer has 64 launchers.

At ArlieBerk, all missiles are launched from MK-41, that is, the total number of cells must be divided into all types of missiles - KR, SAM and PLUR ...
We have a separate launcher under the SAM, that is, if you count the cells of the same 22350 base series - 16 UKSK cells + 32 Redoubt cells - it turns out - 48 cells.
22350 of the second series has 24 cells UKSK + 32 Redoubts - 56 cells ...
That is, the difference in weapons no longer looks global, and we are comparing their weapons destroyer and our frigate... we are not building new series of destroyers yet.

[slm976]

It's funny, I just finished my comment, went to the flotprom, and I read the news from yesterday:

Rockets "Tomahawk" again learned to hit surface targets.
https://flot.com/2020/%D0%A1%D1%88%D0%B0303/
- I don’t know how much this news corresponds to reality and how effective such missiles will be, but it turns out that from now on everything is not so simple with the "anti-ship" tomahawks ...

[Vadim237]

Subsonic anti-ship missiles for warships no longer pose a danger - since it is easy to shoot them down.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: Vadim237

Subsonic anti-ship missiles for warships no longer pose a danger -

And the navy did not even know!

[Vadim237]

Earlier, in the 80s, they were new, and the radar stations of the ships of that time left much to be desired, as well as the ship's missiles in general - now all this has gone far ahead, we have created Daggers against the Tomahawks, and now it has been replaced by Armor M.

[shonsu]

I think that in a 1v1 duel (for example), zircon has an almost 100% chance of hitting the target, but tomahawks are fairly easy targets. I think a volley of 4 tomahawks has a 50% chance of at least one hitting the target. Because now even RTOs "Karakurt" are equipped with air defense systems "armor-sm"

[SovAr238A]

Quote: slm976

The Americans have Harpoons in service with the BNK (not on all series of destroyers) ... and that's it.

Stop talking nonsense.
The Americans, like ours, by the way, having gained experience in working on ships using large missiles, abandoned anti-ship missiles for some time.
For the effect in battle, whether from anti-ship missiles that hit the ship, or from missiles that hit the ship, is absolutely the same.
The ship is out of action and the crew is fighting for survivability.
Anyone down to a cruiser.

But SAM flies at a speed of up to 4M and the lack of warheads is compensated for by speed.
The SAM can also use the vertical dive algorithm from a height of 20-30 km, leaving the radar control zone.
And you can find the damage caused by large missiles on the Internet.
Learn materiel ..

[slm976]

Stop talking nonsense.
The Americans, like ours, by the way, having gained experience in working on ships using large missiles, abandoned anti-ship missiles for some time.

It's funny when a person speaks complete nonsense so confidently. The fact that SAMs can be used as a last resort for firing at surface targets absolutely does not make them an alternative to anti-ship missiles.
Everything is much simpler, no one and nowhere is considering muzzle fights between ships, ship formations will fight, about the support of aviation and submarines.
The US destroyer is a ship of the AUG order, it provides air defense and anti-aircraft defense of the aircraft carrier group, and the enemy's BNK is fought by naval aviation from the aircraft carrier, just with the help of anti-ship missiles.))
That is, the US destroyer really does not really need anti-ship missiles, but not because it is easier to use missiles, but because it is not his task to destroy enemy ships, this is the task of aviation.

[shonsu]

What is more effective, to get one Zircon or 4 Tomahawks on board?

If we take into account your question, then I think we are talking about a counter strike, and not about defeating the target. After all, one "zircon" has little chance of stopping even the AUG, while the "tomogavki" are subsonic, and have fairly simple targets. I think getting 4 missiles on board is still worse than one. But this one has 4 times more chances than hitting at least one of the tomoghawks.

[Flurry]

I am glad that there are so many specialists in the field of hypersound on the forum;)) I was personally confused by the range of the product. BUT: you can make estimated calculations, knowing the thrust and specific fuel consumption of the scramjet engine, the dimensions of the product, etc. In order of magnitude, everything agreed with me. With regard to cooling, a combination of ablation and evaporation of fuel is possible. In terms of looks, I don't think it looks like Onyx. At these speeds, a different airframe layout is optimal. Therefore, most likely they either showed misinformation, or there are overhead / conformal solid-fuel boosters that accelerate to the operating speed of the scramjet engine, and then detachable. Because of them, it is possible that the product at the start from the outside resembles Onyx.

[KKND]

Quote: Rafale

BUT: you can make estimated calculations, knowing the thrust and specific fuel consumption of the scramjet engine, the dimensions of the product, etc. In order of magnitude, everything agreed with me.

How did you find out the specific fuel consumption? And the mass of fuel? Did you "saw" the rocket?

Quote: Rafale

I am glad that there are so many specialists in the field of hypersound on the forum;))

Ah ... although it is understandable, you definitely developed it.

[voyaka uh]

"Therefore, most likely either they showed misinformation"
----
That is, they showed the launch of Onyx, but said that they were showing the launch of Zircon.
This is not excluded.
Because for those videos (if you make a frame-by-frame stop)
it can be seen that the rocket switches to horizontal flight early,
and does not rush up to a height of 28 km (which is stated in the performance characteristics).
For ejection to such a height, as the author of the article correctly noted,
a large solid fuel booster is needed.
For which there is no room in the launch container.

[Flurry]

[quote = Santa Fe] Such a rocket, first of all, requires a 19 ton upper stage, not new fuel :)
Not required. There it is solely for the purpose of increasing the flexibility of use. Our analogue is the MiG-31 + Dagger, from which we conclude about the need for a three-wing aircraft carrier. But the Il-76, if desired, will also shoot with a Dagger, but it will take a long time to saw at the launch point and the launch range will decrease.

[Santa Fe]

Do you understand what your comment is about? :)

the analogue is the MiG-31 + Dagger

An analogue of what

Dagger solid propellant ballistic missile with air launch
Launch mass 3-4 tons (based on Iskander)
payload - 700 kg
max speed - 5,9M

In the case of Zircon, the task of a solid-propellant accelerator is to accelerate an aircraft with a mass several tons up to speed 8M, on which the work of the scramjet will become possible.

You can't do without a 19-ton rocket booster

[Flurry]

http://bastion-karpenko.ru/VVT/X-51_2013_04.jpg
What are 19 t, what are you talking about? Here is a real accelerator, its weight can be compared with the device itself. For 8M it will probably be 2 times more.
And the meaning of the comment is that their complex is actually made on stage 1 of the launch vehicle for the efficiency of striking. There is no need to dock the carrier and the missile launcher, check, warm up the engines, or fly to the launch point for a long time. Therefore, 19 tons, in fact, is a mini-analogue of the Avangard with a motorized hypersound at the last stage. If Zircon needed a radius of 3-5 tons km, he would also have screwed the first stage from Poplar and there would be your 19 tons.

[KKND]

Quote: Rafale

What are 19 t, what are you talking about? Here is a real accelerator, its weight can be compared with the device itself. For 8M it will probably be 2 times more.

To be fair, this accelerator is also accompanied by the B-52 accelerator. Moreover, the headroom that can be used to further accelerate.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Santa Fe

In the case of Zircon, the task of a solid-propellant accelerator is to accelerate an aircraft weighing several tons up to a speed of 8M, at which the scramjet engine will work.

Maxim, you're wrong. The task of the solid propellant rocket (upper stage) is to give the product the speed at which the direct-flow engine starts. And this is about M2. Well, also stretch the product higher, where the air resistance is lower. And then the scramjet is pushing, accelerating the GZKR to the M8.
Further. Progress in speed and range is achievable only on the path of new: fuel, weight reduction - an increase in the volume for fuel with the same weight of the product, a new dvigun - an annular detonation (as an option), a decrease in the mass of the BZO due to new explosives or even " "SBCH, reducing the mass of avionics ... All this gives a multiplex effect, which makes it possible to solve the problem of speed and range in the same mass-dimensional parameters, without reducing the damaging effect of the payload.
At the same time, it seems to me that our Kulibins did solve the problem of heat resistance of the material of the hull, nose fairing and controllability of the aircraft in the plasma cocoon. ("And this - there is a great secret!")

[DrVintorez]

Oleg, don't use numbers, you can't !!! how many times have you already been caught. continue to better beautiful passages ala Prishvin.

[alexmach]

The article is interesting but not indisputable.
1. why not use the proven solution when launching a mortar rocket from a vertical installation.
2. The assumption about the axial symmetry of the air intake is just an assumption. And based on the fact that the rocket launches on the mortar and tilts towards the target. But what if she can only lean forward and not 360 degrees? Suddenly not only bends but also turns on the axis?
3. Voros about the energy parameters is really very good.

[Bersaglieri]

An axisymmetric scramjet can be made. Another thing is that the cone will stick out far away and the fuel combustion modes will be more cunning than in the "bucket with a chisel". Well, the limitation, just in terms of cruising speed, will be at the level of 7-8M.

[Viktor Sergeev]

An article in the style: I don't know a damn thing, but exactly this cannot be, because it cannot be. The author does not strain, let the military decide what they will fight with.
I have one question: what did the "effective managers" fail?

[Santa Fe]

"Yes, if we are talking about ensuring long-term motion of an object in the atmosphere, and the so-called motor, that is, with the use of propulsion engines. Such engines for hypersonic movement are usually direct-flow. Other types are rocket-turbo-direct-flow or combinations of turbo-direct-flow - They have been trying to create for 60 years already, but these technologies have not been mastered so far.Moreover, even in ramjet engines already tested in different countries, it has not yet been possible to ensure stable, reliable combustion in combustion chambers when driving on hypersonic. resolved in the near future, it is not yet clear. The world-famous devices with ramjet engines, both domestic and American, are exclusively research. "

- Herbert Efremov, former General Designer of NPO Mashinostroyenia, where, according to legend, Zircon was created.

As far as I know, not a single domestic device with a scramjet engine has been created "in metal". Drawings and plastic models only. In total, there were only two attempts to flight tests of hypersonic vehicles in the world - these are the X-43A and the Boeing Waverider. The rest of the countries did not even come close.

Further, another fragment of an interview with G. Efremov:

- There are photographs of hypersonic aircraft with a jet engine. They all have an interesting shape: not streamlined, but rather angular and square. Why?

- In front are the so-called "boards", "wedges". Everything in order to make the air flow entering the engine acceptable for combustion and normal combustion of fuel. For this we create so-called shock waves. Jumps are formed just on the "boards" and "wedges" - those structural elements that dampen the air speed.

On the way to the engine, there may be a second shock, a third. The whole nuance is that air should not enter the combustion chamber at the same speed as the HZLA flies. It must be definitely reduced. And very much even. It is desirable to reach subsonic values ​​for which everything has been worked out, checked and tested. But this is exactly the problem that the creators of the GZLA are trying to solve and have not solved in 65 years.

[set of sets]

An interview before Putin was awarded or after?

[Vadim237]

As far as I know, not a single domestic device with a scramjet engine has been created "in metal". Created and not one - only you were not told about it or shown for obvious reasons.

[Santa Fe]

Then what are the reasons for showing the Dagger?

In all the details!

(The answer is because the Dagger was created. And therefore it was proudly demonstrated to the whole world

In turn, Dagger is the only one of the "cartoons" who was created in reality, because it did not require fantastic materials and technologies. Iskander and MiG-31. How to hang a ballistic missile under an aircraft - the solution to this problem was known half a century ago.)

[Vadim237]

Then what are the reasons for showing the Dagger? Probably because the Dagger is the exact same OTP with TTRD. And no one will show you hypersonic missiles, scramjet-powered aircraft and maneuvering gliding blocks of ICBMs, since their aerodynamic design is a state secret for this reason.
"How to hang a ballistic missile under an aircraft - the solution to this problem was known half a century ago." Of course they knew - only for some reason it never came to the adoption of these suspensions. The dagger was the first of its kind.

[Santa Fe]

Of course they knew - only for some reason it never came to the adoption of these suspensions.

Half a century back adopted the X-15

[Vadim237]

She has a maximum speed of Mach 5 and a range of 300 kilometers.

[Santa Fe]

Fact - a ballistic missile launched from aircraft. Adopted many decades ago

Larger dagger, higher launch weight = longer launch range

Mig is used instead of Tu-22M

Unlike other "cartoons" - the least controversial and most realistic. Therefore, it appeared in reality. It was declassified the next day, all "effective managers", in uniform and without, wanted to PR on it

[Bersaglieri]

Yes, there were many GELA. And with a "wedge" (https://testpilot.ru/russia/tsiam/igla/), and with an "axisymmetric" scramjet engine (topic "Cold" https://testpilot.ru/russia/tsiam/holod/)

[bk0010]

Quote: Santa Fe

The whole nuance is that air should not enter the combustion chamber at the same speed as the HZLA flies. It must be definitely reduced.

This is a very bad idea. It is clear that

Quote: Santa Fe

Preferably up to subsonic values, for which everything has been worked out, checked and tested

but this is a dead end. It is necessary to achieve combustion of fuel in a hypersonic flow. The task is very difficult (about how to make sure that the hurricane wind does not extinguish a match, but fan its flame), but apparently, it was solved.

[Sergey Kulikov_3]

Quote: ROSS 42

New things are being created in "all" countries. Little of. There they also manage to release this "new" in sufficient quantities, after which they trumpet about its presence.

Have you heard about the railgun and combat lasers? And what about the rockets in tsat times exceeding the hydro sound?

[Comrade Kim]

Quote: carstorm 11

I just spel sometimes

The same attack.
The hands are also very cold, the smart screen often does not respond to touches.
The consequences of covid, his mother's leg. The temperature is still below 35 ° C, the blood has become cold like that of amphibians.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: Comrade Kim

The temperature is still below 35 ° C, the blood has become cold like that of amphibians.

Comrade KIM! Should we be in sorrow?
Pour, and drink! If you can't go inside - rub it, damn it, through your skin! Don't let yourself freeze, otherwise you will die!

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Comrade Kim

the smart screen often does not respond to touch.

We must look for a smart one with a different touch recognition principle. For example, on Sonya's book, to turn the pages, it is quite enough to plant a wine midge on her, which is visible only when you look closely (which, by the way, is not at all a plus, since you have to turn off the screen, even with avoid further inconvenience in finding the desired page). In general, smart is needed with a different principle of touch recognition (not capacitive).

[d4rkmesa]

"" Onyx "- the fastest of the really existing anti-ship missiles - has characteristics at the limit of the design capabilities of both the rocket itself and its carriers. The last reserves of the technologies of our time were" squeezed out "- IMHO, this is not entirely true. There was, for example, "Bolid", "Granit" with a ramjet engine, the same SR-71 - there were speeds of about 3M +. A smaller version for aviation and TA 533 is being designed. There is no limit to perfection. )

[KKND]

Quote: d4rkmesa

There is no limit to perfection. )

The limits are there. The laws of physics. And the unpleasantly low speed of separation of particles of known types of chemical fuels is one of the main limits.

[d4rkmesa]

In essence, I agree, I rather mean that the capabilities of the ramjet engine and the reserve for modernization in Onyx are far from exhausted, it would take a long time to lick it. Increase speed, range, etc. by tens of percent. But, apparently, "Zircon" is now considered the most promising and priority development.

[Mooh]

Poseidon does not exist, Zircon does not exist, there are 8 different Putin units on TV, neighbors shine rays into the brain at night. Disconnect me from this matrix already. Long live punitive psychiatry, hurray comrades !!!

[Vovan]

The infantile-Internet approach is touching: we do not believe you here, and therefore, quickly - yes in a couple of paragraphs - refute all our doubts, absolutely convincingly, with the provision of proofs and other technical-NIOC documentation.

[PilotS37]

It seems to me that the author has mixed two completely different questions into one heap:
1. What was shown to us?
2. How did you achieve this?
If he "threw these questions in different corners", the picture would be painted differently. And this avalanche of emotional posts did not follow ...
On the first question the answer is quite obvious: "we were shown something... Most likely, the launch of the same Onyx. So what? Why should the military demonstrate to "civilians" a real launch of a top-secret and "breakthrough" missile (even if they have one)?
The answer to second question in this case it turns out to be somewhat different from what the author did ... Indeed, we have "Onyx" with such and such indicators. To improve them several times, you need to do this and that. And at the same time, shove this "gizmo" into a container, into which "Onyx" can hardly fit. Is this possible with the current level of technology development in general and the potential of domestic developers and managers in particular? ...

[d4rkmesa]

Well, the author summed up the picture pretty well, especially in the light of yesterday's show of the Zircon launch. I see, even here, supporters of the fact that the original video was "Zircon" diminished after watching yesterday's video.
"Is this possible with the current level of technology development in general and the potential of domestic developers and managers in particular?" - it is possible, there are still talented people in Russia, yes, they are not enough for everything, but nevertheless, they are.

[Daniilr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lz6vfyhbIiM
New tests were carried out. The rocket did not follow the trajectory of the onyx. Soared into the sky

[Daniilr]

Moreover, in the video from 0:29, the ramjet engine is already working (the smoke disappears, a fiery jet is drawn behind the rocket). As already mentioned above, a certain similarity between Zircon and Onyx is caused by the same launchers. The missiles themselves are completely different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5Uin4Vd7SM
(Launching onyx from the bastion)
Note that the smoke does not disappear, and the rocket should fly at a much lower altitude, so as not to visually strongly indicate the location of the installation.

[tlauicol]

Quote: DaniilR

Moreover, in the video from 0:29, a ramjet engine is already working (The smoke disappears, a fiery jet is drawn behind the rocket).

A fiery jet of several kilometers? It's a contrail in the sun
And the engine is really ramjet, but not hypersonic

[Disant]

author, your video with Zircon is incorrect.
That was two months ago congratulations to GDP.
And now here's the shooting with Zircon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4bhKOYbVyQ
quickly redid everything so that H.I. Sutton did not have any questions

[mopok]

Well, my own 5 kopecks. How about a picture like this? Exhibition AeroIndia-2015. Why can't there be such a form? And the head part is covered with a casing at start-up, like the original Onyx.

[Tektor]

There is a very simple answer to your unanswered questions, which explains everything: you simply do not know the real performance characteristics of Onyx. Which is absolutely not surprising. There are completely different numbers.

[Old26]

Quote: umah

Nonsense! The speed of formation of the air wedge is regulated by the displacement of the central body (increase-decrease in the air intake), the fuel supply can also be adjusted.

N: why are you, Max, omitting the author of the article? Since he said "no moget", it means "no moghet", the Author (with some exceptions) "beyond suspicion of incompetence" (as Caesar's wife)

Quote: umah

And one more thing: the launch of Zircon and Onyx are similar, but the trajectories are different. Onyx runs parallel to the ground / water, and Zircon goes up, possibly into the stratosphere. Probably, flight in the upper atmosphere (among other technical solutions) helps Zirkon accelerate to M8.

I will add, Max. Up to the declination altitude of the rocket, the trajectories are generally the same. Both Onyx and Zircon use a starter motor to eject the rocket from the launcher. Only for "Onyx" its operating time is limited by EMNIP 5 seconds and then the main engine is switched on, and for "Zircon", after the start-up is completed, the rocket is tilted and the nose fairing is dropped, the accelerating solid-fuel engine is turned on, accelerating the products to the speed at which the GPVRD starts to work ( EMNIP is 4,8M). And both Onyx and Zircon have to drop the fairing

Quote: umah

At what moment the trajectory changes (at startup or during acceleration), I have no data. All I can do is analyze the launch frames, and they differ in the videos

When overclocked. Before the missile dips, the trajectories of Onyx and Zircon are identical.

Quote: Alex777

I suppose you paid attention to the trajectory correctly.
As far as I understand, Zircon should climb with a candle and it goes 28 km.

Not necessarily a "candle". The ascent at an angle of 45 degrees does not at all prevent the achievement of an altitude of 28 km, fifty kilometers from the launch point.

Quote: Nikolaevich I

The BrahMos anti-ship missile system was created on the basis of the Onyx ... A BrahMos-II hypersonic missile is being created on the basis of the BrahMos ... Is it possible, thus, to "catch" the connection between the Onyx and the hypersonic anti-ship missile?

Dear namesake. The fact that the Indian hypersonic missile is called Bramos-2 does not mean that it is being built on the basis of Bramos. The aerodynamics are different. In one case, it is a supersonic product with an axisymmetric air intake, in the second, a hypersonic product with aerodynamics characteristic of hypersound and an air intake "bucket".

Quote: Dodikson

The dagger is not secret, the appearance of the Vanguard is also not secret, because there is all the cimes in the fuel and engine.
but for Zircon, the appearance is very important because thanks to him and the engine, he reaches such speeds

Not worth making up. Nobody has seen the appearance of the Vanguard. We weren't shown it. All that we have seen is the launch of an ICBM, the combat equipment of which is the Avangard. The whole tsimmes, usually in the aerodynamics of the product itself. And fuel and engine are secondary. Put on a parallelepiped five times more powerful engine and three times more caloric fuel than on a real "Vanguard" this "parallelepiped" will not fly faster than the "Vanguard". And its flight characteristics will be worse than that of the "Vanguard"

Quote: Siberian 66

Pleased with the drawing of the alleged "Zircon". Range is indicated in kilometers per hour Desu was prepared by the best specialists

What does not suit you, comrade? a hypothetical drawing of "Zircon" or an error in the "report" about his performance characteristics?
If the "report" - then I agree. Straight lam. If the appearance, then unfortunately we have only one appearance of the hypersonic CD - this is the American X-51 "Waverider". There are no other real ones yet. Therefore, this pattern is molded, since it does not contradict the aerodynamics of a hypersonic rocket. That's all

Quote: Dodikson

why is he flying further than Iskander? also because gladiolus?
and how can he fly faster because of the MiG-31 if his maximum speed is limited by an OWN engine?
and the fact that the Dagger may have a different, more energy-intensive fuel did not come to your head?

No need to write nonsense with a clever look (including about gladiolus). And if you get involved in technical disputes, then it would not hurt to have at least a minimum of knowledge.
But it never occurred to the "little head" that the "MIG-31 +" Dagger "complex could be considered as a usual" two-stage "carrier. with the MIG-31 at a certain height and a certain speed.

Quote: Dodikson

I know without you what an upper stage is and why it is the MiG-31 that accelerates, and not the Il-76, but no plane will give that boost to the speed that the starting accelerator gives, and no plane will increase the maximum speed of the rocket. because it is higher than the speed of the plane.
using Blink allows you to increase the range (it also increases the speed), but not the speed.

Can "Dagger" disperse any carrier. Whether the TU-22M3, the IL-76, or the TU-160. Then everything rests on the range of the "complex" itself (and not the missile). Depending on the speed of the carrier and the launch altitude, the range of the complex will vary, while the speed and range of the missile itself will be less ... Just take and build an approximate ballistic trajectory of the "Dagger" for different conditions. For example, launch from an altitude of 16-18 km at a speed of 1,8 M for the MiG-31, launch at a speed of 1 M from an altitude of 12-15 km with a TU-22M3, and so on. And calculate the speed by the formula, and the range, taking into account the combat radius of the carrier with such a load. The start will be at an altitude of, for example, 18 km, and the finish at an altitude of 0-0 ....

Quote: Dodikson

so tell me, what is the modernization. How does the MiG-31 accelerate a missile to 3M with a speed of less than 7M?

I already wrote how. Tsiolkovsky's formula will help you. The "aircraft + missile" complex is considered as a two-stage system.

Quote: Santa Fe

Such a rocket, first of all, requires a 19-ton upper stage, and not new fuel :)
+ the issue of thermal protection at a speed of 8M (see table in the article), this means hundreds of kg of ablation protection

Sorry, Oleg, but you wrote nonsense. At the same "Dagger" the engine itself has a weight of about 3 tons, and at the same time accelerates the rocket itself to a speed of 6,4M. A missile, mind you, not a warhead.
The issue of thermal protection can be solved in a comprehensive manner, incl. and changing the material of the rocket body

Quote: Santa Fe

Do you understand what your comment is about? :)

the analogue is the MiG-31 + Dagger

An analogue of what

Dagger solid propellant ballistic missile with air launch
Launch mass 3-4 tons (based on Iskander)
payload - 700 kg
max speed - 5,9M

In the case of Zircon, the task of a solid-propellant accelerator is to accelerate an aircraft with a mass several tons up to speed 8M, on which the work of the scramjet will become possible.

You can't do without a 19-ton rocket booster

The maximum speed of the Iskander is 2,1 km / s. Divide by the speed of sound at an altitude of at least 50 km and see the maximum speed. It will be 0,5M more than you indicate.
There is no need to accelerate the Zircon in order for the scramjet to start working. It starts working when it reaches a speed close to hypersonic. According to various sources - from 4,8 to 5M. So for this, approximately the same mass of accelerator fuel (not a launch vehicle) as that of Iskander is enough.

[KKND]

Quote: Old26

So for this, approximately the same mass of accelerator fuel (not a launch vehicle) as that of Iskander is enough.

Then we must assume that the scramjet engine and the warhead and fuel and other payload fit into 700 kg. Do you seriously believe this?

Quote: Old26

Sorry, Oleg, but you wrote nonsense. At the same "Dagger" the engine itself has a weight of about 3 tons, and at the same time accelerates the rocket itself to a speed of 6,4M.

You can take a 1 kg payload and accelerate even more with a 3 ton engine. The trick is that on the Dagger they could simply reduce the warhead and the Dagger itself weighs less (the body and the load are less).

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Old26

The issue of thermal protection can be solved in a comprehensive manner, incl. and changing the material of the rocket body

Vladimir, on this issue, I strongly disagree with you.
RCC is an extremely compact case, completely filled with important components.
Components are located under the anti-ship missile case. extremely intolerant of prohibitively high temperatures. Electronics, servos, fuel, etc.
All materials have "heat transfer".
And metal-containing ones have almost 100% heat transfer. Almost instant.
And in the case of the anti-ship missile system it is simply impossible to make additional cooling, as it is implemented, for example, in the nozzles of rocket engines.
At these speeds, the issue of thermal protection in anti-ship missiles cannot be changed by the materials of the case.
Only ablative materials.
the same example is quite simple, but which explains everything.
the melting point of the aluminum oxide film and the melting point of aluminum itself and what happens to aluminum at the temperature that is "brought outside" onto the oxide film.

[Santa Fe]

It starts working when it reaches a speed close to hypersonic. According to various sources - from 4,8 to 5M. T

8-fly rocket engine will not start at 5M

5M and 8M - require different engines and different missile designs

[tlauicol]

Quote: Santa Fe

It starts working when it reaches a speed close to hypersonic. According to various sources - from 4,8 to 5M. T

8-fly rocket engine will not start at 5M

5M and 8M - require different engines and different missile designs

what if you regulate the speed and shape of the flow with a moving head or an air intake? True, then the rocket should also be a transformer. And all over the glider from the tip of the nose to the tail

[Santa Fe]

It will not help
In hypersonic aircraft, the shape of their hull is used to create shock waves to slow down the flow.

Therefore, they are all so asymmetrical with chopped shapes. And for each mode its own

A real example is x43. Three machines for speeds 5, 7,5 and 9 mach

[tlauicol]

Well, I say: the rocket is a transformer. Plus another tank of fuel or mid-air refueling

[Vadim237]

Here is something interesting from the Chinese in terms of the scramjet air intake
Scientists from the Chinese Academy of Sciences successfully tested a prototype of a new generation engine in a wind tunnel, which immediately accelerated to nine speeds of sound. And this is less than half of its potential - according to calculations, with such a power plant, aircraft will be able to fly at speeds of Mach 16, which will make it easy to ascend into near space and reach any point on the planet in a matter of hours. The technology is called Sodramjet, an abbreviation for oblique shock wave ramjet.

The appearance of the Sodramjet was the result of an attempt to solve one of the fundamental problems in the development of ramjet air-jet engines. To reduce the weight of the aircraft, the designers decided to remove the very heavy oxygen canister and scoop gas directly from the surrounding air. However, it quickly became clear that achieving a uniform flow of oxygen into the combustion chamber is very problematic. And the main enemy of the engineers was the shock waves arising at super speeds, which threatened to destroy the engine.
Chinese scientists, led by Jiang Zonglin, implemented what NASA had invented back in the 1980s, but then the theory did not go beyond theory. They managed to make those same shock waves work in unison with the combustion chamber and push oxygen into it at a hypersonic speed. The details of the process were not disclosed, but as they write in the media, "the faster the engine runs, the more efficiently the main hydrogen fuel is burned." The new engine will be much smaller and lighter than the existing scramjet engines, and therefore flying with it across half the world without refueling looks quite real. But this is clearly not a prospect for the near future, the prototype only demonstrates the technology's efficiency. The appearance of a full-fledged aircraft Sodramjet engine in China has not yet been promised, but they note that the world has entered the era of hypersonic flights, so more and more such new products will appear.

[Pavel57]

Crazy article. The reasoning is based on the analysis of photo and video material, only there is no guarantee that they are Zircon, and not Onyx.

[swzero]

Moreover, if the rocket is secret, then showing a video of its launch on TV is stupid.

[Vadim237]

In this video, the design of the rocket is almost invisible.

[Old26]

Quote: Comrade Kim

The temperature is still below 35 ° C, the blood has become cold like that of amphibians.

Happy people. Someone has winter, but here +6 during the day and +1 at night.

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

Comrade KIM! Should we be in sorrow?
Pour, and drink! If you can't go inside - rub it, damn it, through your skin! Don't let yourself freeze, otherwise you will die!

Sound thought. In 5 days, on my father's 95th birthday, I will make it come true. On Tuesday he consumed cognac on his own birthday. And let COVID rage !!!

Quote: DaniilR

Note that the smoke does not disappear, and the rocket should fly at a much lower altitude, so as not to visually strongly indicate the location of the installation.

Daniel! This is a short-range launch of Onyx according to the lo-lo-lo scheme. When fired at maximum range, it rises to a cruising height of 14 km

Quote: KKND

Quote: Old26

So for this, approximately the same mass of accelerator fuel (not a launch vehicle) as that of Iskander is enough.

Then we must assume that the scramjet engine and the warhead and fuel and other payload fit into 700 kg. Do you seriously believe this?

I wrote ABOUT... Even the exact mass characteristics of the Iskander are not available. And what can we say about "Dagger". Therefore, I say ABOUT. Although on the same American X-51, when firing at a distance of 426 (EMNIP) km, there was 20 kg of fuel with an engine thrust of 180-450 kgf

[KKND]

Quote: Old26

Although on the same American X-51, when firing at a distance of 426 (EMNIP) km, there was 20 kg of fuel with an engine thrust of 180-450 kgf

Fabulous data about 450 kgf. Then the resistance of the environment exerted a force of only 450 kgf at hypersound.
All data on missiles on the Internet in 99% of cases are "fake". People from DCS still do not know anything about the Aim-120A; they carry out virtual reverse engineering, but you believe in fairy tales.
Oleg is most likely right. Too high a speed of 500 km for a rocket of this mass. If this is technically possible, then such missiles can be used in air defense and aerospace technology to start using them. Musk will strangle himself with envy.

[Daniilr]

Quote: Old26

Quote: DaniilR

Note that the smoke does not disappear, and the rocket should fly at a much lower altitude, so as not to visually strongly indicate the location of the installation.

Daniel! This is a short-range launch of Onyx according to the lo-lo-lo scheme. When fired at maximum range, it rises to a cruising height of 14 km

Thanks, I didn't know)

[Valery 1979]

navy for zircon needs to be created, otherwise it actually does not exist for zircon.

[UA3QHP]

And it does not at all look like a device with a wedge-shaped asymmetric body and a narrow box-shaped air intake under the fuselage. Which for several years was passed off as "the alleged appearance of a hypersonic anti-ship missile system."
Would you like to see the real appearance of a product of the highest security category in a cartoon?

[timokhin-aa]

Well, why do people write this here, eh? "Zircon" was made largely using the experience of "Onyx", the fact that it has similar gas-dynamic arms and the same orientation mechanism after the start does not mean that the rest is the same. The fuel, the GOS engine, and the air intake are different there.
The glider is similar, with a circular cross-section.

There is no need to suck history out of the finger.

[SovAr238A]

Oleg!
I have been writing about your conclusions for probably 5 years.
I am the only one who wrote about this for several years under different names.
They just banned me.
I am probably the only one on this site who sees information from public procurement on the modernization of a rocket called Onyx with the following name Zircon.
About the requirement to fit this modernization into the mass dimensions of Onyx for use in a standard UKSK.
The overwhelming majority did not believe me.
But I saw the procurement documentation with my own eyes on the Internet.

And that's why I always talked about it.

Now you have come to the same conclusions.

[Old26]

Quote: KKND

Quote: Old26

Although on the same American X-51, when firing at a distance of 426 (EMNIP) km, there was 20 kg of fuel with an engine thrust of 180-450 kgf

Fabulous data about 450 kgf. Then the resistance of the environment exerted a force of only 450 kgf at hypersound.
All data on missiles on the Internet in 99% of cases are "fake". People from DCS still do not know anything about the Aim-120A; they carry out virtual reverse engineering, but you believe in fairy tales.
Oleg is most likely right. Too high a speed of 500 km for a rocket of this mass. If this is technically possible, then such missiles can be used in air defense and aerospace technology to start using them. Musk will strangle himself with envy.

I apologize. Something on the side of the keyboard, the unit began to sink. Fuel is not 20 kg, but 120. The launch took place at an altitude of 15,2 km from the B-52. The engine from the MGM-140 ATACMS rocket was switched on, which accelerated the "bunch" to a speed of 4,5M. At this speed, the Pratt & Whitney Rocketdyne SJY61 engine started. The flight took place at a cruising altitude of over 21,5 km. It is difficult to say about the resistance when the dimensions of the X-51 itself are unknown. It is quite possible that in the stratosphere such engine thrust was sufficient. After all, the flight itself was less than 5 minutes in time in different tests. Even in which test there was 120 kg of fuel, it is not known
I don’t believe in fairy tales, but I voice my vision of the situation that we are shown. I disagree with at least many provisions of Oleg's article ... And the rest - time will tell

Quote: Ua3qhp

And it does not at all look like a device with a wedge-shaped asymmetric body and a narrow box-shaped air intake under the fuselage. Which for several years was passed off as "the alleged appearance of a hypersonic anti-ship missile system."
Would you like to see the real appearance of a product of the highest security category in a cartoon?

The video shows a start from TPK with all the bells and whistles, aerodynamic covers, side panels and more. Talk about the real form of a rocket based on such data bullshit

[Vaxtovik]

The foundation of these developments lay in the tables of little Khrushchevs, our designers and engineers who believe in Russia! Many starved, but did not betray the Country and believing that the "foam of foolishness" will come down and they will be remembered .. Russia held on to such people, holds on and will defend its greatness and statehood! Thanks to them and those who are no longer with us, but their business lives on ..

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Vaxtovik

The foundation of these developments lay in the tables of little Khrushchevs, our designers and engineers who believe in Russia! Many starved, but did not betray the Country and believing that the "foam of foolishness" will come down and they will be remembered .. Russia held on to such people, holds on and will defend its greatness and statehood! Thanks to them and those who are no longer with us, but their business lives on ..

When did you visit any KB?
more indifferent to the statehood,
"no betrayal"
"we will be remembered"
"Russia"...

Nowhere.
Even the clothing market has more real patriots of Russia than any design bureau ...

[Vaxtovik]

Quote: SovAr238A

Nowhere.
Even the clothing market has more real patriots of Russia than any design bureau ...

And what then the West squeals and you Libers about the empire and the revival of Russia, as a threat to all of you? Yulite you An even if you judge your nickname .. There are many of your offended who fled and then returned from the countries of "freedom and democracy" You do not need those who are aching there, and especially those who betrayed and leaked information-developments, drawings, etc. hoping to profit.
So now the losers are whining, trying to shit to the Motherland of the mother who nurtured you .. Oh, you are "runners" .. And the patriots of Russia, they silently work and not for money and good .. But simply, for the Fatherland, as their conscience tells them not enough, but they are to spite all of you "grabber", etc.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Vaxtovik

Quote: SovAr238A

Nowhere.
Even the clothing market has more real patriots of Russia than any design bureau ...

And what then the West squeals and you Libers about the empire and the revival of Russia, as a threat to all of you? Yulite you An even if you judge your nickname .. There are many of your offended who fled and then returned from the countries of "freedom and democracy" You do not need those who are aching there, and especially those who betrayed and leaked information-developments, drawings, etc. hoping to profit.
So now the losers are whining, trying to shit to the Motherland of the mother who nurtured you .. Oh, you are "runners" .. And the patriots of Russia, they silently work and not for money and good .. But simply, for the Fatherland, as their conscience tells them not enough, but they are to spite all of you "grabber", etc.

I have worked in the military-industrial complex of my country for almost 25 years.
And now I continue to work for the security of the country. Energy security. Directly.

I will answer you with the text that I wrote a couple of days ago.
Think please.
Hurray-patriotism is a far-fetched phenomenon.
It develops in people with an extremely weak level of general education, incapable of obtaining information, its comprehensive analysis, incapable of looking at the system as a whole, paying attention only to loud headlines, easily perceived slogans and slogans.
They have extremely low self-esteem inside, who are trying to realize themselves at someone else's expense, insulting other countries, other armies and everything else.

The hat-covering, which in reality simply does not have any basis, is simply fantastically developed.


That is why we all see in the arguments of the "hurray-patriots":
1. The whole world is in dust.
2. Nobody will leave the atomic bomb.
3. Strategic aviation has value in nuclear strikes.
4. One Caliber - one ship, one Dagger, one aircraft carrier.
5. Poseidon will wash away half of the USA.
6. Drones are bullshit.
7. Stealth does not exist.
8. ZGRLS - sees everything that is read in the newspapers in Trafalgar Square.
9. Khibiny - extinguish Cook.
10. Any users of Russian weapons. except for the Russians - ridiculous fools. if there were ours, they would show everyone the class.

and so on, and so on, and so on ...
And they all clump together.
They come running as if on command in one article.
They instruct themselves a bunch of pluses, and mercilessly minus those who do not agree with them.

But in other articles where there is at least some kind of technical component - there are no "hurray-patriots" at all.
For well, they do not understand anything and they cannot say anything on the topic in principle.
This is just an indicator of what I wrote about above. About actual illiteracy.

[Bug69]

If you, my friend, really managed to work in the USSR in the defense industry, and judging by your statements, it was so, then today you would not bleat about "hurray-patriots." In the USSR, design engineers in the military-industrial complex were real patriots of their country. And it was in the military-industrial complex that the system itself sifted out empty gaps like you, and they put masters to dilettantes-students who began to teach these idiots to do real work. In general, please, do not disgrace the caste of real engineers of the times of the USSR with your sketches. They are "not like you", thank God.

[flicker]

then today would not bleat about "hurray-patriots"

So he himself is one of the "hurray-patriots" ... only Israel.

[flicker]

I have worked in the military-industrial complex of my country for almost 25 years.

... "my country" ... Israel ?!

[vm68dm]

No comments

[swzero]

I think achieving the stated parameters is possible if a powerful solid-fuel upper stage is used, which takes the rocket to a greater altitude, where 8m is already quite achievable.

[voyaka uh]

"powerful solid propellant upper stage"///
----
This is how the author writes about it.
But he claims that such a block does not fit into the Onyx launch container.
Since it will take up most of the length (length) of this container. And there is no room left for the hypersonic missile itself, which has its own fuel and its own engine, which also require space.

[bk0010]

Quote: voyaka uh

But he claims that such a block does not fit into the Onyx launch container.
Since it will take up most of the length (length) of this container.

There must be a lot of free space inside a hypersonic ramjet engine. The accelerator can be placed there, it will burn out before the main engine turns on, all that remains is to carefully throw it away.

[Vasyok]

I cried. We have been deceived again.

[Old26]

Quote: SovAr238A

This is precisely an indicator of what I wrote about above.

I gave you a plus, unfortunately only one. What is the name of the post “not in the eyebrow, but in the eye”

Quote: voyaka uh

"powerful solid propellant upper stage"///
----
This is how the author writes about it.
But he claims that such a block does not fit into the Onyx launch container.
Since it will take up most of the length (length) of this container. And there is no room left for the hypersonic missile itself, which has its own fuel and its own engine, which also require space.

It is not clear why this statement by Oleg is considered a priori the only correct one. If you look at exhibition copies of the same Brahmos model or flight X-51, then the upper stage makes up from 30 to approximately 40-50% of the total length of the product. The solid fuel charge of the same Iskander itself has a length of about 3-3,2 meters with a diameter of less than 900 mm. And at the same time it accelerates a rocket with a non-separable warhead (that is, the entire blank) to a speed of 6,4M. I believe that a smaller charge with a length of 4 meters and a diameter of approximately 0,7 m will be able to accelerate the hypersonic part itself to a speed of 5M for the start of operation of the gas-propelled jet engine. Moreover, the fuel is probably new and more high-energy than before. And Oleg’s actually weighs almost 19 tons, according to his calculations

[Santa Fe]

will be able to accelerate the hypersonic part itself to a speed of 5M for the start of operation of the gas-propelled jet engine

The hypersonic ramjet will not turn on at speed 5M. Because the Zircon engine is designed for an operating speed of 8M

Therefore, a space accelerator of 19 tons - and forward, acceleration to 8M

[lopvlad]

Based on these observations, we can conclude that the Zircon design uses solutions similar to the 2,6-swing Onyx.

it’s like, based on the shape of a cartridge case, drawing a conclusion about the range and direction of fire at which the bullet flew.

[AC130 Gunship]

The Soviet legacy is ending. The Su57 does not have its own engine. And so far it is not expected. It flies exactly on the ground...

[Pavel57]

Quote: vm68dm

No comments

Onyx-Yakhont-Brahmos
Zircon-Brahmos II

[flicker]

I wonder if the officials who give Mach numbers in random order understand that these numbers mean different aircraft?

It's funny to read opuses like this
---
I wonder if the author understands that the speed of a rocket depends on the state of the air.
In other words, with a change in flight altitude, air parameters such as density and temperature change, which in turn affect the rocket’s flight speed.
---
"Different aircraft"

[Old26]

Quote: bayard

Quote: umah

All I can do is analyze the launch frames, and they differ in the videos

I also just analyzed the footage of the exit from the Zircon UVP, and it is not identical to the Onyx hull. Although both one and the other have a "head" - the so-called. an orientation head unit, dropped after the missile body is tilted onto the target. There are certain hull anomalies uncharacteristic of Onyx. Hence, the conclusion is that what takes off is definitely not Onyx, but the launch scheme is similar and is almost identical to the "head unit of orientation", which is reset after doing it. But the missile bodies are different.

I can add this with a drawing from Dima Korenev’s website “Military Russia”

Quote: voyaka uh

"Old 26" claims that if a rocket is dispersed with
booster to 4-5 MAX, then further its scramjet will be able to hold out its speed
up to 8 MAX. At the same time, the booster will be small, and the rocket is also small.
All together - within 9 meters.
In this case, questions arise about the missile warhead. There is no room for him.
And about the location of the control unit. In the red-hot bow
electronics will burn instantly. And the warhead will explode. And the aft part is the engine.
The Americans had no warhead, and the electronics were in the back.
The rocket was long.

I am not asserting, dear Alexey, but “reasoning out loud.” I, like all of us, have practically no data to build a “slim body”. Yes, as they write in the literature, a direct-flow jet can be launched at speeds of 4,5-4,8-5M (at what exact speed it probably depends on environmental parameters)
If you look at the same reconstruction drawings from “Military Russia”, then purely theoretically “Zircon” may look something like this

A small (relatively) solid propellant booster. I think it can accelerate to a speed of 5M, especially since, as they say now, there is a new fuel with higher characteristics than previously existing ones.
Where the warheads and SN are is still an open question. Maybe in the bow (we don’t know how it heats up at altitudes of 30 km)

[Vadim237]

The MO video shows that the turbojet engine is a two-mode booster, the first launch is from a PC and rises to the desired height, and the second mode is acceleration of the rocket at a given altitude to turn on the scramjet engine.

[Kent0001]

Balabol kaptsov.... and as always a lot of bukafffff. When necessary, our “sworn” friends are always given the opportunity to take some telemetry parameters of the samples......and they don’t yell that there was no Mach 8, they silently print out a new pack of diapers. Expert Kaptsov has already annoyed everyone with his vision on any issue.

[Petrik66]

Very interesting to read. Russia must arm itself with Armata, Su 57, along the Sarmat into every sewer hatch, and then what? Will NATO flee to America in horror? Well, they are rich, although the Germans sit until the end and don’t give money for defense. Why do we need all this? Raw, unseen? Even if it’s not cool at 72, 80, 90, but in shorts

[Alexander Atom]

There is no need to even explain this scum - their “master” overseas has the right to keep the entire planet in fear.

[Maxim_ok]

One has only to read the statement of the Chief of the General Staff regarding the Zircon tests and it immediately becomes clear that there is no smell of any 8M there. The rocket covered 450 km in four and a half minutes, therefore the average speed was 1666 m/s, that is, 4,8 M, which is slightly less than the hypersonic limit (speeds over 5 M are considered hypersonic). Most likely, the Zircon is a solid-fuel rocket with a powerful upper stage. Solid propellant engines can reach higher speeds. For example, SM-3 of various versions develop a maximum speed from 3 km/s to approximately 5 km/s (3 km/s (Mach 10) Block IA/B
4.5-5 km/s (Mach 16-18) Block IIA))

[vel1163]

Those. The author proposes to let journalists in, disassemble the rocket into pieces, hold debates with a demonstration of all the components, in order to convince everyone? Let our partners think about this.

[Sergebor]

In the early 80s, under Reagan, we were also shown cartoons and fragments of some tests and were promised complete and quiet horror from the SDI program. "Star Wars". Theoretically, apparently, this was real and the USSR was straining itself to create counteraction to these wars from space... Zircon seems to exist, as if it even flies. Let them now slap their pockets, creating their own wunderwaffle to counter the stated characteristics of Zircon. Bluff is not the worst weapon..... Or maybe not bluff? Maybe he really eats and flies? Well, what to do and how to find out?

[Boratsagdiev]

The fuel-air mixture will not have time to burn in its chamber

- everything works fine with 2m, the efficiency is simply lower. The direct-flow unit begins to work stably from 1.6-1.8 t.km.h.

If this is 2,6 times the speed of sound, how much more powerful did the Zircon need to reach Mach 8?

- You can compare it with “Granit”, there is even more mass. Technologies do not stand still; a striking example is the S-350 air defense system.

After all, the solutions used to create Onyx did not allow us to even get close to 3M speed

- Was it necessary (at that time)?

On the one hand, physics and the observed similarity of Onyx with Zircon. So

- by how much?... all planes have wings and engines - which means they are copies of the Wright brothers' plane and cannot fly faster!
You are an amateur, and you shouldn’t do something you don’t understand.

[peterpen]

The zircon in the picture is copied from the American X-51.

[peterpen]

Is this where the latest weapons systems “shine”? In the “Time” program, or what? Well, yes, then in North Korea they also show this every day. Funny. Did they show “Vanguard” to the Americans? And they admitted it all like that. No there was such a thing. The Americans refuted everything. So where is the “shine” after all?

[slavinsk]

Do you really believe that they can create something in Russia now? They can only promise and deceive, this has long been known. It’s not even possible to copy something, since there is no industry.

[Alexander Koshkin]

Essential questions!
But 2 test launches were made! The Onyxes would have been immediately and noisily exposed. So far, no denials have been heard.

[Viktor Vasilyevich]

I registered specifically to say something!
The Internet is 99.999999...% filled with crap, to which one already develops immunity, as if it were inevitable crap, because such is the percentage of stupid people. But sometimes it just makes me cringe at the ambitions of shit-bearers! The phrase just begs to be said: “Fuck you... with your frying pan!” So in this case I couldn’t resist! To hell with time!
It seems that the author is the reincarnation of Volodya Kucherenko (pseud. Maxim Kalashnikov). It’s obvious that the author picked up something in the past, or in the present he’s fiddling with search engines so much that the processor is crackling, but in the subject “no boom-boom”!
The whole article is strung on one question: “And how?” I would like to answer with a phrase from a popular joke: “PATAMUSHTO”!
Question - why write such crap if you don’t know ANYTHING about the topic? Maybe this is just a trick to make money? Or is it the lust of a pensioner to show off his “erudition”? Although.... Perhaps this is a cunning multi-move by MI6 or the SBU to finally find out the treasured military secret from Kibalchish!
I am a former military test physicist, and therefore I will answer like the heroic Malchish-Kibalchish: “Fuck you... with your frying pan!” :)
That's it, I took my soul away!!! :)

[agond]

Quote: Viktor Vasilievich

The Internet is 99.999999...% filled with crap.

The percentage is certainly high, but not that much...

[Alexander Atom]

I’ll tell you more - these “authors” have too little engineering understanding of modern technologies (and not very modern ones) - the fact that a ramjet rocket is understandable to an idiot, only ramjet rockets can operate at speeds of Mach 3-4 +++ stably for a long time .The fact that the air intake is in front and not on the side like BEFORE SOUND is also clear to everyone, but he continues to insist on the fact that the detachable cap is in front, so the thought does not appear in his stupid head that any ramjet rocket during a vertical launch should have a cap, given that it changes orientation in the direction of movement.
The author is also not aware that it is possible to make a ramjet rocket with 2-3 stages. To reduce mass and therefore increase speed in these flight segments. But in his universe they do not know about this.

[VLADIMIR VLADIVOSTOK]

What, listen to these Western experts! Judged by export samples and all sorts of Brahmos! Maybe I can take him to the plant and design bureau on a tour? In the West they have it in their heads! How ??? In our country, the first flight of the MI-26 helicopter took place in 1971! No country in the world can do anything similar! So how many years is the West behind Russia?

[Mars OK]

So where does the discharge of the fairing have to the presence of a ramjet engine in the rocket, maybe there is a rocket engine and the fairing covers the seeker? especially on the hyper sound there is a unique seeker that is not yet known to the world! maybe it is very sensitive to blows?

[max91]

The USA has very huge plans and prospects. In addition to achieving speed, control flight with maneuvering is also important. But this is not there yet. Although they have been doing it for more than ten years. Just bravado and verbiage. And in Russia the S-400 already shoots down a target missile flying at hypersonic speed.