Military Review

How military aviation works

97

Source: brickmania.com


The reason for writing this article was the dissemination of inaccurate information regarding issues of basing and maintenance aviation.

This happens periodically in all media. Moreover, in articles of completely different orientations, where to one degree or another the issues of the use of aviation (any) are raised, ranging from modeling battles at sea, comparing coastal infrastructure and aircraft carriers, and ending with the use of the Russian Aerospace Forces in Syria.

Part 1. Principles of aerodrome network organization


First of all, it is necessary to say right away that it is not entirely correct to talk about a separate airfield in isolation from the airfield network, of which it is a part. Just as there are various organs in the human body, a specific airfield also performs strictly defined functions assigned to it within the framework of the entire system.

The classification of aerodromes used in the USSR is quite voluminous. For the purposes of this article, I suggest using a simplified model in order to understand the principle itself. For simplicity, some terms may not exactly match the real ones.

Airfield home base


The basing airfield is a large airfield with a developed infrastructure, MTS points, housing for personnel and their families (it can be located in a nearby village). The number of aircraft located at the parking lots of such airfields can be measured in hundreds.

The runway of such airfields is capable of receiving heavy military transport aircraft, which expands the logistics capabilities of the entire system as a whole.

At such aerodromes it is possible to accumulate large stocks of material and technical means (fuel, ammunition, equipment).
Hangars are equipped and there is everything you need to carry out scheduled technical work, as well as aircraft repair.

Such aerodromes are the center of the aerodrome hub (1st level in the aerodrome network hierarchy). As a rule, they are located farther from the borders, which ensures their greater combat stability in wartime.

Operational airfield


This role is assigned to smaller airfields (although not necessarily).

Their runway can be adapted for air supply with light and medium military transport aviation with a carrying capacity of up to 20 tons, as well as MI-8 and MI-26 helicopters.

They have much less monumental structures and infrastructure, permanent reserves.

However, during the planning phase, the potential for building aerodrome capabilities is being built. Places are envisaged for placing pre-fabricated housing, parking equipment, etc. Also, when planning the placement of aerodromes, transport accessibility is taken into account.

Departure airfields


These are very small airfields and even landing sites. They are not suitable for permanent bases of aviation. However, in case of danger, it is possible to distribute aircraft over them and even make several sorties.

This is especially true for fighter aircraft - 800 meters of runway are enough for their operation.

Other components of the aerodrome network


The practice of co-located airfields is used throughout the world. So, for example, the F-16 of the Turkish Air Force, which shot down our Su-24 in Syria, flew on its mission from such an airfield.

The advantages of co-location are obvious: there is a powerful civil infrastructure that does not require money for its maintenance in peacetime, but, on the contrary, generates income.

There is also a guarded area where you can place additional. points. There are reserves to accommodate personnel.

There are about 60 large international airports and about 200 regional airports in Russia.

It should also be borne in mind that joint basing is necessary not only for the needs of the VKS, but also for other departments: the Ministry of Emergency Situations, the FSB, etc.

This implies the presence of zones with a special security regime inside the airport, because, for example, the plane of the head of state should not stand in a common parking lot.

Use of highways as temporary airfields


At the stage of planning, construction and modernization of roads, the possibilities of using their sections as temporary airfields are being considered without fail.

Such aerodromes can be located near railway stations to facilitate the delivery and storage of fuel and ammunition.

Also, in peacetime, the construction of field airfields and sites for the work of aviation (which is called "from the wheels") by the forces of special units is being worked out.

Part 2. Maintenance of aircraft during combat work


The first thing to understand is that the maintenance of equipment is uneven. It can be compared to servicing a car.

There are procedures that are performed every day - warm up the interior, inspect for external damage, clear snow, check error indicators on the on-board computer.

There are operations that are performed weekly - check in for a refueling (with a cup of coffee), check the oil level, fill the washer, pump up the tires if necessary.

Some actions are performed even less often and require even greater costs, a qualitatively different equipment and the availability of spare parts and consumables: changing the oil, filter, brake pads.

And so on. Up to engine overhaul.

Aviation works approximately on the same principle. Aircraft are delivered to the operational airfield, which are as ready for battle as possible, having passed all the planned technical procedures.

This reduces the load on local infrastructure and personnel to a minimum and dramatically increases the intensity of aviation from the airfield.

In fact, the personnel at the operational airfield only need to refuel and hang the BC.

After a certain raid, aircraft that need better service are driven to the rear, to the home airfields, and others are driven in their place. In order not to distract highly qualified pilots from combat work, younger and less qualified pilots can be used for these tasks.

Refueling aircraft


Fueling is another important aspect of preparing an aircraft for departure.

In the modern world, there are many solutions for these needs: from cheap and small to high-performance and expensive.

A kind of "top" in this procedure is the centralized filling system.

Such a system begins with a railway unloading overpass: railway tanks are adjusted and fuel intake begins. The Sheremetyevo overpass is capable of simultaneously unloading fuel from 18-24 tanks (according to various sources).


Drain overpass. Photo: gazprom.ru

First, the fuel enters a small intermediate tank from which samples are taken. And (assuming no complaints) it is pumped into the main storage tanks.

The main reservoirs can be different. At large airbases, RVS (vertical steel tank) are used. Such solutions have a capacity of tens of thousands of cubic meters.

How military aviation works
Vertical fuel storage tanks. Photo: ruaviation.com

At smaller aerodromes, storage can be arranged at a lower volume.

There are hydrants in the airplane parks themselves, like firefighters. A special car drives up to them (or a stationary refueling station is installed at the service point) and refills with any amount of fuel, which is especially important in the case of large aircraft (YES, Military Transport Aviation).

Thus, the amount of necessary transport, traffic, and human resources is sharply reduced, and time is also saved.

To understand the "scale", it is necessary to mention some numbers.

The fuel reserves on an aircraft carrier (of the Nimitz type) are about 12 million liters, that is, about 10 million kg, which is equivalent to 166 tanks.

Such volume can be provided by fitting 2 freight trains to the airfield.

This stock will be enough for 840 Su-34 sorties with full tanks.

Fuel tank capacity:

Su-34, Su-35: 12 kg
Su-25: 3 kg
MiG-35: 6 kg
MiG-31: 17 kg
Tu-160: 150 kg

Remembering the good old cartoon about a baby elephant, a monkey and a boa constrictor, for convenience I suggest further measuring everything in the Su-34.

The standard 4-axle railway tank has a volume of 80 cubic meters and a carrying capacity of 60 tons. It will be enough for 5 full Su-34 gas stations.

The Il-78 air tanker can transfer 60 liters of fuel at a distance of 000 km. Or 1 liters at a distance of 800 km. Moreover, it has 30 performance modes: 000 liters per minute for small aircraft and 4 liters per minute for "strategists".

Thus, at a distance of up to 2 km, it can refuel 000 Su-4s, spending about 34 minutes for each pair with the approach and departure from the tanker (the plane is refueled not with empty tanks, but with a maximum of ⅔, but rather even ½) ...

Standard airfield refuellers have capacities from 20 to 60 cubic meters.


Tanker 60 cubes. Gas station (ahead). Such a tanker can provide 5 flights of the Su-34.

However, there were stories our aviation and exceptions (https://topwar.ru/130885-aerodromnyy-avtotoplivozapravschik-atz-90-8685c.htm).

Separately, I would like to mention the fueling of our strategists.

Tu-160 takes on board 150 tons of fuel, which is equal to 3 railway tanks or 3 large tankers.

The situation can be solved simply. Engels (the place where our strategists are based) is located in the same place as the Saratov oil refinery.

Considering the capacity of 2 liters per minute, the Tu-000 can be refueled in 160 hours. However, it should be borne in mind that this calculation was made based on refueling tankers through 1,5 port.

I didn’t manage to find out the real possibilities of the filling system on Engels. However, I do not think that we will be greatly mistaken if we focus on the numbers "from an hour to two".

Part 3. Equipment of the ASP


Along with refueling, another key aspect of the operational maintenance of aircraft before departure is its ASP equipment. Simply put, weapons or ammo replenishment.

In the comments to my previous articles (regarding the Tu-160), some readers mentioned that this aircraft requires high maintenance costs (in man-hours). And this fact is positioned by them exclusively as an aircraft problem.

In reality, the problem is much more complex and has a deep systemic character. To our great regret, in our country, traditionally, insufficient attention was paid to technical means of maintenance.

What could be called a modern and well-developed "culture of work" was missing.

At the same time, the local craftsmen (on whose shoulders it was the rolling of carts with "cast iron" on the airfield) did what they could. And, as best they could, they tried to optimize the process, including through crafts.

For example, such.


In the case of the Tu-160, it was a figure of 64 man-hours per 1 hour of flight. These figures are rooted at a time when new aircraft had just entered service and no one had experience in operating them. According to the engineers, at that time it took 3 days to get the plane ready for departure. All procedures were performed slowly, constantly consulted with the instructions and discussed with representatives of the design bureau. And if over time the deficit of "skills" and "knowledge" of the personnel was solved, and the time for servicing was reduced, then the problem of the almost complete absence of technically effective solutions for servicing the aircraft remained and could no longer be solved by "crafts". Since the wooden home-made carts no longer "took out" the equipment YES.

In Soviet times, we were already lagging behind the United States in terms of the culture of "ground handling". After the collapse of the USSR, our lag only increased, since in the United States all this time this industry has been developing by leaps and bounds, both technically and conceptually (which is even more important).

How is aircraft equipment carried out in the West?


From the warehouse, ASP are placed on special carts. Not one rocket or bomb at a time, but bundles all at once. Thus, one (maximum two) platforms are sufficient to equip one aircraft. It holds 10 medium-range explosive missiles.


This cart is wide and stable, which increases the safety of moving ammunition on it. It also has a reliable ammunition fixation system.


In addition, there is a working area on it - the ability to fix the tool, fixed compartments for storing consumables, etc. Basically, it is a mobile workstation for ammunition loading.


All manipulations are carried out using a specialized mechanized loader, which increases both the productivity of operations and dramatically reduces the workload for engineers, which is very important during long-term work. Tired people work slowly. In addition, fatigue is always injury, marriage and accidents.


But the fun begins when it comes to tactical aviation.

We have all seen how the Tu-22 M3 is being equipped - one bomb each.

Let's see what the Americans had in this regard back in Vietnam.


According to this principle, it is possible to hang 10 bombs on the Tu 22M 10 times faster.

Let's extrapolate the situation on the Su-34. In Syria, there were operations for which the Su-34 flew with 8 FAB-250 bombs. In theory, one could create a "clip" for 10 such bombs.

For comparison: preparation of the Su-34.


One manually lifts, the other controls. Moreover, these are two different people - unnecessary communication. Which can be difficult in conditions of noise and fatigue. For some reason, two people are standing next to the bomb and holding it with their hand, apparently helping. Morally. If the one who controls falls, then the moral support will be crushed by a bomb. Well, and nuts for fixing the bomb. It is clear that such a unit is as simple as possible to manufacture.

But it is much more convenient to operate like this.


And the most interesting thing is the real cherry on the cake. I won't even say anything. We look.


conclusions


Conclusion 1. Aircraft at an operational airfield are capable of making a certain number of non-stop sorties. And all their maintenance at the same time will be reduced, by and large, to refueling and equipping the ASP (with routine checks and inspection procedures).

Conclusion 2. In the Russian Aerospace Forces, the situation is not ideal, but certain events inspire optimism. In particular, the construction of modern service points in Syria and at other airfields. (There is information about 40. But I don't know how true this is).

It is also worth mentioning the recent exercises, information on which is published on the website of the Ministry of Defense.

For reference. Everything that is in the video takes place on the section of the route under construction. Everything necessary for the functioning of the airfield, including refueling systems, is transferred there. Apparently, this is a section of the highway under construction south of Kazan (the village of "Mokrye Kurnali", to the right of it to the south there is a road under construction).


Conclusion 3. Despite the positive trends, one cannot fail to note a significant lag in aviation services. If the five of us continue to hang one bomb and equip the Tu-160 with one rocket each, and not with drums, then it will take not 64 man-hours, but 164.

Conclusion 4. When I was writing the article, it was strange that we are not talking about some stealth technologies, but about primitive things at first glance: about normal carts and forklifts. But it simplifies and speeds up the process so much. The lag in such an area is shocking. At least me. So, for example, we may not have ten aircraft carriers, but the officers could buy goggles and helmets for the guys. Or do the officers not understand that a person has only two eyes? And the head is needed not only to eat? And the very fact of being on the deck, on which multi-ton machines and mechanisms (cables,) move at high speed, is associated with the risk of injury? These are rather rhetorical questions.

In conclusion, it should be noted that our Western partners are also not always good in terms of intelligence. Natural selection is powerful. Even the most equipped army in the world cannot hide from it.

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  1. Eug
    Eug 9 December 2020 18: 26
    +8
    87-89 biennium R-40s were suspended by at least eight people, released after the command of the armorer's leading suspension "hairpin!" The command was given, as it should be, loud and clear☺. 4 missiles from the cart were suspended quite quickly, 5-6 minutes. The P-60 was hung up by two, maximum three. The triple suspension unit for them was already, as a rule, docked to the girder holder. According to the stories of the gunsmiths from the Su-24 - Lafa, a resort.
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      9 December 2020 18: 33
      -1
      Quote: Eug
      87-89 biennium P-40 was suspended by at least eight people,
      Is it such beauty? And how am I ashamed to ask her for the ass?))
      1. Eug
        Eug 9 December 2020 18: 47
        +2
        I will not say. I just didn't pay attention. And it was not very often, for a couple of "jacket" years, 4 times in total.
      2. Eug
        Eug 9 December 2020 20: 27
        +4
        In the photo - R-40 with a thermal "head", radar caps were conical.
    2. Alexander Vorontsov
      9 December 2020 20: 22
      +2
      It turns out I forgot to insert a video from the exercises into the flock ... ((

      For reference. Everything that is in the video takes place on the section of the route under construction. Everything necessary for the functioning of the airfield, including refueling systems, is transferred there. Apparently, this is a section of the highway under construction south of Kazan (the village of "Mokrye Kurnali", to the right of it to the south there is a road under construction).

      After that there should be a video))))
      1. Sergey Valov
        Sergey Valov 9 December 2020 21: 33
        +1
        Nice, but looks like a Potemkin village.
        There is no water radar in the video. necessary for flight control. The first seconds don't count, I'm talking about general shots. The video shows two Su-34 units, how much fuel they need ... where to get it, where to store it? The bombs are on the ground ... The jump airfield? Without equipment maintenance, without missile pre-flight check? And how far is it from the main one, that wheeled airfield equipment was so easily transferred? If the kilometers are 20-30, then it all went, and if further? Are the personnel houses visible, are they here forever? If they will be transported back and forth, then how much technology will be required for this ... if this splendor is designed for a long time, then a military town with security will be required, if for a couple of takeoffs and landings, does it make sense to fence a garden? And this is in summer, and in winter there are much more problems. And what to do with the track? So we need a bypass road-temporary hut.
        1. Pushkar
          Pushkar 10 December 2020 11: 06
          +1
          Quote: Sergey Valov
          Nice, but looks like a Potemkin village.

          The article states that such "jump aerodromes" are built near railway junctions, i.e. fuel delivery has been resolved .. OBATO equipment is all based on powerful cross-country vehicles (Urals, Mazy), so a march of 300 km or more is not a problem for them. Pre-flight check of missiles is from the realm of jokes, missiles should always be ready, because on them all work is carried out in advance by special services (GSPR). A military town with security? You are not Serdyukov, by any chance? Enough tents or KUNGs.
          1. Sergey Valov
            Sergey Valov 10 December 2020 11: 50
            0
            Anything can be indicated in the article, life is different. I’m already silent about the fact that jump airfields are needed near the front line, and not the railway. nodes. By the way, aviation kerosene is automobile gasoline, its warehouses are not so many, plus try to organize quickly, within one or two days, the transfer of 3 - 4 tanks with gasoline to an arbitrary stop. I think it will be easier to deliver it by transport aircraft. winked
            Aerodrome equipment is not designed for multi-kilometer marches.
            The fact that missiles do not need pre-flight check / preparation is your wish, not reality.
            Did you live in a tent in a field? And in winter? Do you propose to drive the aerodrome personnel there? By the way, I didn't exclude KUNGi, the question is - do they exist in sufficient quantity? As for the aerodrome personnel, do you propose to drive it from the main airfield, or create a new one from a vacuum?
            Military unit in the field without protection ??? Who are you fighting for?
            As for Serdyukov, the attempt at rudeness did not pass, he wrote it off to .... well, no matter what.
            1. Pushkar
              Pushkar 10 December 2020 14: 23
              +2
              Quote: Sergey Valov
              By the way, aviation kerosene is automobile gasoline, its warehouses are not so many, plus try to organize quickly, within one or two days, the transfer of 3 - 4 tanks with gasoline to an arbitrary stop. I think it will be easier to deliver it by transport aircraft.

              Did you actually see a military plane except in the sky? I am an officer, an aviation gunsmith, 22 calendars, 10 years of combat duty, 6 years in the GPPR (group of preliminary missile training), after being wounded I transferred to OBATO (a separate airfield maintenance battalion). Aviation kerosene is gasoline?!?! An epic discovery! Nobel Prize here! According to the exercises, OBATO was transferred to an alternate airfield 300 km away. Regularly! We lived in tents in winter, no big deal, just fun - an adventure. And the staff is in the hotel, we are the technical staff, the IAS (aviation engineering service) and the airfield services. I don’t want to discuss organizational issues with you. I do not like laymen trying to preach. I have the honor.
              1. Sergey Valov
                Sergey Valov 10 December 2020 15: 16
                0
                Wildly sorry, sorry, I confess, typing I missed the "not" particle. I wanted to write "aviation kerosene, this is NOT automobile gasoline."
                Your humble servant has been testing aircraft engines for over 20 years. And education is also aviation. And I also have an idea about the work of the aviation technical staff. But I'm a civilian.
                1. Alexander Vorontsov
                  10 December 2020 16: 19
                  0
                  Quote: Sergey Valov
                  Wildly sorry, sorry, I confess, typing I missed the "not" particle. I wanted to write "aviation kerosene, this is NOT automobile gasoline."
                  Your humble servant has been testing aircraft engines for over 20 years. And education is also aviation. And I also have an idea about the work of the aviation technical staff. But I'm civil

                  Can you cut out appendicitis in a person?
                  But you are not surprised that despite 1000 problems, there are people who are professionals in medicine. And they can. despite the fact that you need to know what kind of anesthesia to inject and how much. How to cut and dissect tissue. How to sew.

                  These are all problems. But there are people for whom these problems are their job.

                  In the same way, for the army, there are people whose job is military logistics.
                  Infrastructure construction.
                  Planning.


                  Regarding fuel, Sheremetyevo alone has booked several railway tracks at different sedimentation tanks and stations nearby, where 3 trains stand at the same time. In case of emergency with delivery or factory. It is normal for people to anticipate problems and prepare for them somehow.

                  Again, I do not see a problem, because such objects are not built "with a finger in the map". And it is calculated where which military unit is. Where are the warehouses, etc. All this is taken into account. Strictly speaking, I was generally lucky that I found this site on the map and was able to upload a screenshot here.

                  The task of such airfields is to ensure dispersal in the event of a missile strike on the bases.
                  It is definitely better to keep the technique than to allow it to burn out all at 1 base.
                  1. Sergey Valov
                    Sergey Valov 10 December 2020 16: 44
                    0
                    I know what a home front service is and why it exists. I know about the existence of dispersal airfields, or, more precisely, what they are for. I was told how the exercises are planned. But my own experience and the experience of my colleagues suggests that in the event of unforeseen circumstances, all previously developed plans do not work, improvisation begins, sometimes turning into chaos. I observed something personally, I heard a lot from colleagues. Therefore, I am very skeptical about the show in the form of MO videos. It is somewhat reassuring that our neighbors on the globe, in principle, have the same processes.
                    1. Alexander Vorontsov
                      10 December 2020 16: 51
                      -1
                      Quote: Sergey Valov
                      I know what a home front service is and why it exists. I know about the existence of dispersal airfields, or, more precisely, what they are for. I was told how the exercises are planned. But my own experience and the experience of my colleagues suggests that in the event of unforeseen circumstances, all previously developed plans do not work, improvisation begins, sometimes turning into chaos. I observed something personally, I heard a lot from colleagues. Therefore, I am very skeptical about the show in the form of MO videos. It is somewhat reassuring that our neighbors on the globe, in principle, have the same processes.

                      The plan is well thought out, if it is thought out by at least a third =))

                      Almost ascribed to Napoleon.
                      In fact, there is a basis under the statement - indeed, there are a lot of variables in a war, so in practice it is very rare when everything goes according to plan.
                      But .. at the same time this is not a reason not to plan and do nothing.

                      Even if there is chaos, in this chaos with preparation it will be possible to do more than without it)) Well, do not forget that there are the same people on the other side =)) Who still have the same "Not according to plan"))) So the task is not to implement everything perfectly, but to plan and implement a little better than the enemy.
                      1. Sergey Valov
                        Sergey Valov 10 December 2020 17: 08
                        +1
                        I agree with this completely. drinks
        2. businessv
          businessv 10 December 2020 17: 11
          0
          Quote: Sergey Valov
          And what to do with the track? So we need a bypass road-temporary hut.
          Apparently, you see such a miracle for the first time, judging by the post. smile In Germany, although it is small in comparison with us, there is such a miracle on a couple of autobahns. The separating metal bumpers are removed and voila, the runway is ready! As a fallback, in the case of a big nix, it can be very useful. For example, the runway at the main airfield is damaged, and the aircraft are in the air.
          1. Sergey Valov
            Sergey Valov 10 December 2020 17: 54
            0
            I haven’t seen such a miracle alive, I only heard it. But I'm talking about something else. In case of using a section of the highway under the runway, the highway will have to be closed completely and for a long time. In order not to get a multi-kilometer traffic jam, you need a bypass road on this section, and you need to think about this in advance, otherwise it may turn out as always - aviation is flying, and defense cargo is in a dead traffic jam, and even worse if an ambulance with patients gets up there.
            By the way, if the native runway is damaged and the planes are in the air, then they will not have time to remove the bump stops and redirect them to the Autobahn.
            1. businessv
              businessv 10 December 2020 19: 19
              0
              Quote: Sergey Valov
              By the way, if the native runway is damaged and the planes are in the air, then they will not have time to remove the bump stops and redirect them to the Autobahn.

              They will succeed, colleague, I have repeatedly observed this during the exercises. Concerning
              to get a multi-kilometer traffic jam, you need a bypass road on this section, and you need to think about it in advance, otherwise it can turn out as always - aviation flies, and defense cargo is in a dead traffic jam, and even worse if an ambulance with patients gets up there.
              , then during the DB, and it is then that these reserves are used, hardly anyone decides to create such a cool target as a traffic jam! wink
              1. Sergey Valov
                Sergey Valov 10 December 2020 19: 25
                0
                "They will have time," - I am sincerely glad if this is so.
  2. gray
    gray 9 December 2020 18: 26
    +10
    Hello, a very interesting article.
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      9 December 2020 18: 37
      +9
      Quote: gray
      Hello, a very interesting article.

      Thanks, I tried =)
      1. Alexander Kopychev
        Alexander Kopychev 9 December 2020 19: 11
        +2
        Thanks, I tried =)


        And you have learned! It was very interesting !!! Write more !!! hi
      2. marchcat
        marchcat 9 December 2020 19: 35
        +2
        In our reality, a lot of things are missing, and not only at airfields. God did not offend us with the "Lefties" and "Kulibins". It is a pity that those who are supposed to notice and produce it do not notice this.
        1. URAL72
          URAL72 9 December 2020 20: 11
          +4
          Well, what can I say ... It is at the expense of such carts that our army, with expenditures of $ 50 billion, can withstand the army with expenses of $ 700 billion. It's sad, but for everything to be like theirs, the same expenses are needed.
      3. businessv
        businessv 10 December 2020 17: 13
        0
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        Thanks, I tried =)

        Thanks for the article and for adding the video, otherwise I almost got cognitive dissonance at first without it! smile good
    2. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 9 December 2020 20: 21
      +4
      Quote: gray
      Hello, a very interesting article.

      I support. Interesting, but not surprised. Himself with a similar fit and more than once. Yes, count constantly. And this is not only in aviation. It's the same in civilian life.
      Low bow to the design bureau for such aircraft, but for their inattention to the creation of service equipment and devices - below the waist and with all their might. Or do they think that this is what Pushkin and Lermontov should do?
      1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
        Boris ⁣ Shaver 9 December 2020 23: 24
        +4
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Or do they think that Pushkin and Lermontov should do this?

        Everyone does:
        1) what they are ordered;
        2) what they are paid for;
        3) what matches their profile.

        It is strange to ask aircraft designers to create a cart, which they have not ordered yet, plus they have not paid for.
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 9 December 2020 23: 47
          +4
          Quote: Boris ⁣Razor

          It is strange to ask aircraft designers to create a cart, which they have not ordered yet, plus they have not paid for.

          When did you buy the car? Were you given a set of keys with the car? Jack, pump, pressure gauge. So in this case, the design bureau should attend to the design of all the necessary devices for servicing their aircraft.
          Or will you entrust this business to the design bureau of the combine plant? Or KB of a tractor plant? Or maybe a furniture factory?
          1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
            Boris ⁣ Shaver 10 December 2020 00: 35
            +3
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            When did you buy the car? Did you get a set of keys with the car?

            No

            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Jack

            Yes

            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            pump, pressure gauge

            No

            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            KB must attend to the design of all the necessary devices

            I confess I'm not sure that the jack in my car was created by the engineers of the same auto concern that produced my car. Judging by the way it looks, the Germans generally bought it from the Chinese.
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 10 December 2020 09: 37
              0
              Quote: Boris ⁣Razor

              I confess I'm not sure that the jack in my car was created by the engineers of the same automaker that produced my car. Judging by the way he

              Why are you exaggerating? You pavas, the Sukhoi Design Bureau did not invent the wheel for its aircraft, but it calculated its dimensions, it did not spank the wheel from the tractor. Therefore, all the equipment, all the necessary tools and devices must be developed by this design bureau. And all this can be made even in a bed workshop, if only the technology is respected.
              1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
                Boris ⁣ Shaver 10 December 2020 10: 20
                +1
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                it calculated its size

                Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                should develop exactly this KB

                We agree that the design bureau should develop an appropriate technical specification for the relevant enterprises and their engineers. Or, at least, to participate in the preparation of such a TK.
                It is not rational to expand the specialization of the aircraft design bureau to robotic aircraft maintenance mechanisms. Engineers specially trained for this issue will receive a salary in that design bureau, and their products will be produced, in fact, in a piece design. This is not rational. It is much more correct to have a separate enterprise where engineers are only engaged in the creation of such mechanisms. Moreover, they do it "on stream", for completely different industries. And this enterprise, having received the TK from the Design Bureau, simply designs, on the basis of existing developments (including developments from completely different industries), with maximum unification, the necessary mechanisms. Then he makes them in the required quantity. Confused explained?
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 10 December 2020 10: 42
                  -1
                  Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
                  Confused explained?

                  No, it's quite understandable. And convincing enough.
                2. businessv
                  businessv 10 December 2020 17: 16
                  0
                  Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
                  Confused explained?

                  Sensible and logical! good
              2. Sergey Valov
                Sergey Valov 10 December 2020 10: 57
                0
                Aircraft design bureau develops only a glider, everything else is taken as finished products and mated into what will later be called an airplane. There are aviation design bureaus that design systems and assemblies - navigation equipment, catapults, weapons, chassis, life support systems, etc. Some of the equipment is designed by non-aviation design bureaus - partly weapons, partly electrical equipment, etc. Aerodrome equipment is a huge layer of all kinds of systems and its design and manufacture has nothing to do with the design bureau. Another issue is the unification of the systems for the operation of aviation equipment produced by various aircraft design bureaus. And here the customer comes out on top, in this particular case, MO. Similarly, the customer (as the operator of the equipment) issues an assignment for the design of airfield equipment. So there is no need to blame aircraft design bureaus for what they have nothing to do with.
                1. Krasnoyarsk
                  Krasnoyarsk 10 December 2020 11: 09
                  -1
                  Quote: Sergey Valov
                  design of aerodrome equipment. So there is no need to blame aircraft design bureaus for what they have nothing to do with.

                  I proceeded from the fact that if someone "designed" the lock, then he should "design" the key to it. It's easier and safer that way.
                  Where they will produce both that and another is not important.
                  1. Sergey Valov
                    Sergey Valov 10 December 2020 11: 25
                    -1
                    Wrong. The aircraft design bureau is physically incapable of designing everything that is necessary for the aircraft it is designing, and it is unreasonable. At the very least, this will lead to a lack of unification with the planes of other design bureaus, and it's scary to write about the maximum. I hope you don’t dispute the rationality of independent engine-building design bureaus?
                    1. Krasnoyarsk
                      Krasnoyarsk 10 December 2020 16: 33
                      -1
                      Quote: Sergey Valov
                      other KB, let alone the maximum and it's scary to write. I hope you don’t dispute the rationality of independent engine-building design bureaus?

                      You got me wrong, maybe I could not explain my position correctly.
                      Look, the design bureau designed the aircraft, the plant manufactured it. The first in this series flew to the regiment at the airfield. How does the pilot get down to the ground? That "step-ladder" that is on the airfield does not fit - it is too low. AND? Well, it is clear that God did not offend the country with the Kulibins - they will find how. This is the simplest example to understand what I mean. Is it possible that the Ministry of Defense should order the tractor design bureau to train those. documentation for the manufacture thereof? It is easier to do it after all, the design bureau who designed the aircraft, because they know all its parameters. And so on everything: from reloading the ammunition (one "device" is needed to reload the gun, and another for the suspension of missiles) to refueling, etc.
                      I just have the experience of "linking" all emerging problems with subcontractors - it's easier to do it yourself, that's what I mean.
                      1. Sergey Valov
                        Sergey Valov 10 December 2020 17: 05
                        0
                        Sorry, but you don't know the basics. Before the plane gets into the combat unit, it is tested for several years at the LII. There, in essence, everything is already there, the specificity is. In addition, there are centers of combat use, where the aircraft also gets to the combat unit. Before entering the combat unit, flight and technical personnel undergo retraining for new equipment. Even before the first machines enter the combat unit, all the necessary equipment for operating the aircraft is sent there. All this necessary equipment is designed and manufactured BEFORE the aircraft enter the regiment. Another question is that a part of the necessary equipment may not arrive, but that is another topic.
                      2. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 10 December 2020 19: 07
                        -1
                        Quote: Sergey Valov
                        Sorry, but you don't know the basics.

                        And again you did not understand me. I came up with this hypothetical situation for your understanding of MY position. It is not necessarily correct. The question was what was it - who develops all the necessary equipment for servicing a new, in terms of design, aircraft? Design bureau that designed the aircraft or the design bureau of the bed workshop, which needs to transfer part of the documentation from the aircraft design bureau for the design of equipment.
                      3. Sergey Valov
                        Sergey Valov 10 December 2020 19: 38
                        0
                        Now I understand, sorry. The equipment for the operation of the new aircraft is developed not by an aircraft design bureau or a bed workshop, but by specialized design bureaus, mainly from the structure of the former MAP, I do not know what the name of this structure is now. It is not at all necessary to transfer the documentation, it is quite enough to correctly formulate the terms of reference. After graduating from university, I worked for several years at one MAP Research Institute, as a result of which I was forced to get acquainted with the structure of the industry and cooperation within it. It was another monster of hundreds of enterprises and organizations.
                      4. Krasnoyarsk
                        Krasnoyarsk 10 December 2020 20: 15
                        -1
                        Quote: Sergey Valov
                        Equipment for the operation of the new aircraft is being developed not by the aircraft design bureau or bed workshop, but by specialized design bureaus, mainly from the structure of the former MAP,

                        Now everything fell into place. Thanks. hi
  3. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 11 December 2020 11: 49
    +1
    Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
    It is strange to ask aircraft designers to create a cart, which they have not ordered yet, plus they have not paid for.

    Service is not only a problem with auxiliary technology. Sometimes it seems that our design bureaus designed aircraft, proceeding from their service not by representatives of the species Homo Sapiens, but by some kind of tentacle monsters with eyes on stalks. smile
    In addition to the engine resource, the Su-7 had many limitations of flight modes, the severity of which did not decrease as tests progressed, but, on the contrary, increased, threatening to turn a front-line fighter into a low-maneuverable machine, suitable only for "straight flights". Maintenance was greatly hampered by the dense layout and extremely small technological hatches, and to access a number of units, it was sometimes necessary to remove several mounted side by side.
    (...)
    When carrying out preliminary preparation, without fail preceding the next pair of flight days, on the Su-7B, for the work, it was necessary to open 38 hatches of various components and systems (on machines of different series, their number varied, these figures relate to airplanes of the summer of 1969). Of these, 27 hatches were required to open a special tool (miscellaneous screwdrivers) with a total of 122 screws and screw locks unscrewed.

    ... when servicing the MiG-21 PF in the course of preliminary preparation, opening the hatches took even more time, and the screws and locks had to be unscrewed one and a half times more - 195 pieces. To provide access to the serviced units of the first MiG-23s, it was necessary to open as many as 47 hatches with 452 screws and locks, spending almost two hours on these operations!
  • svp67
    svp67 9 December 2020 18: 30
    +9
    Yes, interesting stuff. Indeed, they remember about tanks and airplanes, but we somehow forget about their maintenance systems. I wonder now if we have a design bureau capable of designing machines, and most importantly, unify them for servicing and providing as many combat vehicles as possible. What would not have happened like Pokryshkin's, when the STUTZER of the air cylinder for the ground start of the Yak engine was completely unsuitable for the MiG.
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      9 December 2020 19: 43
      +6
      Quote: svp67
      Yes, interesting stuff. Indeed, they remember about tanks and airplanes, but we somehow forget about their maintenance systems. I wonder now if we have a design bureau capable of designing machines, and most importantly, unify them for servicing and providing as many combat vehicles as possible. What would not have happened like Pokryshkin's, when the STUTZER of the air cylinder for the ground start of the Yak engine was completely unsuitable for the MiG.

      First, you need to at least take care of this issue (
      They could have taken Kuznetsov - it would have been elementary to buy 50 sets of protective devices for the head, eyes, hearing organs.

      They could have written elementary rules in 20 years that one cannot be on deck without the above.
      For comparison, 2 episodes (already rewound to the right moments)




      But they did not even do such elementary things. And this means that in everything else they did so.
      The result of his campaign thus became just a pattern.
      1. Lipchanin
        Lipchanin 9 December 2020 20: 21
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        They could have written elementary rules in 20 years that one cannot be on deck without the above.

        In the first video, something about the rules is not a word, but almost all the time they talked about "Caliber"
      2. svp67
        svp67 9 December 2020 20: 28
        +4
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        They could have taken Kuznetsov - it would have been elementary to buy 50 sets of protective devices for the head, eyes, hearing organs.

        Yes, that there, colored vests, for differentiation, who where can not be. The Americans and the Chinese have this strictly and correctly.
      3. Lozovik
        Lozovik 9 December 2020 22: 19
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        First, you need to at least take care of this issue (
        They could have taken Kuznetsov - it would have been elementary to buy 50 sets of protective devices for the head, eyes, hearing organs.

        They could have written elementary rules in 20 years that one cannot be on deck without the above.
        For comparison, 2 episodes (already rewound to the right moments)

        Read NIAO-90 or FAP PP, the main provisions are stated there.
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          9 December 2020 22: 57
          +2
          Quote: Lozovik

          Read NIAO-90 or FAP PP, the main provisions are stated there.

          155. When performing work on aviation equipment and maintenance equipment, the personnel must know and strictly observe safety measures. Those guilty of violating security measures are liable in the prescribed manner.

          How do you think the one who stands on the right is breaking or not?


          It’s not about reading something, although I’m all for it, but my reading will not change anything.
          The point is that people would have a businesslike attitude to what they do, with love and soul, develop the kind of activity to which they have devoted a period of their lives.
          So that the rules change and improve. They were not written for formality and "to a minimum".
          1. Lozovik
            Lozovik 11 December 2020 10: 44
            0
            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            It’s not about reading something, although I’m all for it, but my reading will not change anything.

            As I understand it, we are talking about the fact that there are no maintenance and protection facilities in our Air Force, safety rules have not been developed. It is not true.

            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            The point is that people would have a businesslike attitude to what they do, with love and soul, develop the kind of activity to which they have devoted a period of their lives.

            This cannot be determined from the pictures on the Internet. You need to go to the regiment yourself, watch the work of the engineers.

            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            So that the rules change and improve. They were not written for formality and "to a minimum".

            Maintenance of AT is regulated not only by FAPs, you will hardly find other documents.
            1. Alexander Vorontsov
              11 December 2020 11: 11
              -1
              Quote: Lozovik
              This cannot be determined from the pictures on the Internet. You need to go to the regiment yourself, watch the work of the engineers.

              Don't define what?
              Lack of head, eye and hearing protection? It is perfectly visible.
              Well, here I do not know - either there are no rules, or put everyone on them.

              And in the form that you sent in general, the beyond happens


              We do not have rules prohibiting outsiders, let alone children, from being in the service area? Riding them on .... I don't know, is it a training missile or a combat one?
      4. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 11 December 2020 12: 56
        0
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        They could have taken Kuznetsov - it would have been elementary to buy 50 sets of protective devices for the head, eyes, hearing organs.

        They could have written elementary rules in 20 years that one cannot be on deck without the above.

        There are also problems with the fact that theory without practice is dead. All the rules begin to be observed with regular work, training, exercises - when the sequence of actions is hammered into the subcortex. And especially - when the participants in the action themselves, with their own eyes see what the violation of the rules leads to.
        And if you work from the deck a couple of times a year, then the deck crew simply forget the skills.
    2. Alexander Vorontsov
      9 December 2020 20: 28
      +3
      Quote: svp67
      Yes, interesting stuff. Indeed, they remember about tanks and airplanes, but we somehow forget about their maintenance systems. I wonder now if we have a design bureau capable of designing machines, and most importantly, unify them for servicing and providing as many combat vehicles as possible. What would not have happened like Pokryshkin's, when the STUTZER of the air cylinder for the ground start of the Yak engine was completely unsuitable for the MiG.

      By the way, apparently there are people in the army (in a limited number, apparently) who understand modern trends.
      For example, for promising art. systems were originally created in a set of transport-loading machines and a mobile service complex (cleaning of barrels, etc.)
      1. svp67
        svp67 9 December 2020 20: 34
        +4
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        For example, for promising art. systems were originally created in a set of transport-loading machines and a mobile service complex (cleaning of barrels, etc.)

        I’ll upset or inspire you, but in Soviet times all this was created, but it was not produced much and was STORED under lock and key, this is me about the barrel cleaning mechanisms, for example.
        Right there, which is interesting now. Our Defense Ministry is now facing the question of urgently needing to change the structure of the army, the number cannot be increased and so it is exceeded, but it is urgent to create new subunits of the same electronic warfare, various UAVs, it turns out that somewhere it is necessary to reduce. So, why not do this by increasing the mechanization of such processes and optimizing services, and direct the released units to new formations
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          9 December 2020 21: 29
          +2
          Quote: svp67
          the number cannot be increased, and so it is exceeded, but it is urgent to create new subdivisions of the same electronic warfare, various UAVs, it turns out that somewhere it is necessary to reduce.

          Yes. Unfortunately, I do not know how things are now with the engineering units responsible for the construction of airfields in the "field", but you can start by creating on their basis a couple of tactical airfield service groups, a kind of exemplary ones.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Lipchanin
    Lipchanin 9 December 2020 18: 39
    +5
    Good article. Informative.
    Thanks to the author hi
  • Charik
    Charik 9 December 2020 18: 41
    +5
    This is some kind of shame (as one house used to say) -
    - ash stump in Sheremetyevo, refuelers of foreign cars - I represent refuelers of military aircraft (more than sure that they are exactly the ones that were the last century gases zila mazy urals), and remove this, otherwise whoever sees a foreigner will faint -
    -such probably even in RosNanoTekhAviaKosmosEnergoAtomprom are still using
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      9 December 2020 21: 42
      0
      Quote: Charik
      I represent the tankers of military aircraft (more than sure that they are exactly the ones that of the last century gases zila mazy ural)

      Of course there are old cars.
      But new ones are also purchased and the park will gradually be updated. (Well, old URALS can't go forever =)))))

      1. shahor
        shahor 10 December 2020 00: 14
        +2
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        (Well, old URALS can't go forever =)))))

        A couple of days ago, on the Breaking Defense website, I watched a video from a US Air Force exercise with a hot refueling - fighters landed on some field airfield, a C-130 tanker sat down to them, poured fuel into them without shutting down their engines and immediately flew away further. The procedure was impressive.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 9 December 2020 18: 50
    +6
    For the purposes of this article, I suggest using a simplified model in order to understand the principle itself. Due to simplification, some terms may not exactly match the real ones.
    In order to understand the principle, it would be necessary to at least briefly explain what the basing of aviation, an airfield network, an airfield area, an airfield hub are.
  • Ros 56
    Ros 56 9 December 2020 18: 58
    +2
    A sound article, as a rule, pay attention to the main thing, but not very little things (although during the b / d period these are not at all trifles), such as the suspension of weapons and other troubles. It is necessary for the Air Force, and indeed for the Defense Ministry, to incite Rostekhnadzor with its safety equipment.
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      9 December 2020 20: 18
      +3
      Quote: Ros 56
      A sensible article, as a rule, pay attention to the main things, but not very little things (although during the b / d period these are not at all trifles), such as the suspension of weapons and other troubles. It is necessary to set Rostekhnadzor with its safety equipment on the Air Force, and indeed on the Defense Ministry

      Yes, that is right.
      About 30 years ago, when they decided that it was secondary and unimportant, they still think so.
      Only now time is passing and Western partners every year, yes they did something in this direction. This is how a fundamental difference was made a little bit.

      If you look at how modern robotic warehouses and factories work, you will see a picture of the future, when robots will take on more and more service functions.

      And if it is scary to entrust the machine to equip the bombs with fuses, then, for example, a robotic manipulator of the KUKA type can easily "find" the fuel filler neck on the plane and perform all the required manipulations, synchronizing with the onboard system.



      PS
      There will also be a second article, there is generally about how much equipment is lost due to such a lag.
      Also about airfield systems.
      1. agoran
        agoran 9 December 2020 20: 44
        +4
        [Quote] [/ quote]
        No, he can not. Before refueling, the engineer / technician checks the "sludge" from all the lower points of the technical specification visually. In case of detection of foreign objects (ice crystals, any inclusions, up to living organisms, yes, there are those that live in kerosene) TK is removed. And how can robotics do this?
        1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
          Boris ⁣ Shaver 9 December 2020 23: 51
          +2
          Quote: agoran
          checks "sucks" from all low points of the TK visually. In case of detection of foreign objects (ice crystals, any inclusions, up to living organisms, yes, there are those that live in kerosene) TK is removed. And how can robotics do this?

          To programmatically distinguish foreign objects in a relatively homogeneous environment? A schoolboy with knowledge of "python" and a webcam with aliexpress is enough. Read about computer vision.
    2. Boris ⁣ Shaver
      Boris ⁣ Shaver 9 December 2020 23: 42
      +5
      Quote: Ros 56
      set Rostekhnadzor against its safety technology

      As a result, headaches and costs will only be added. Security is unlikely to be added.

      Technicians will "confirm the diploma" once in N years, passing the dumbest paid test written by some layman, but from whose office they need.
      The number of pieces of paper that will need to be filled out and developed will be added to push responsibility for each other.
      "Crusts" will be added to everything that is possible, which will have to be bought from whose firms you need every year.
      They can add (with great pleasure) a thread of the Aviatekhnikov SRO, to which the Ministry of Defense will start bashing monthly fees and other levies that will disappear into thin air without a trace (moreover, it is constantly growing!)
      In parallel with the SRO, some kind of unsuccessful department will introduce paid annual accreditation for the activities of aerodrome services, which everyone will undergo for months, completely falling out of work for this period (along with the entire aerodrome).
      And in order to finish off everything in general, the regions will be allowed to introduce their own local additional rationing for this type of activity. So that the plane, upon arrival from one airfield to another, suddenly finds out that it cannot fly further, since the color of its hairpins does not correspond to the regulations of the region in which it landed.

      When you ask for "technical regulation" - you do not even understand what kind of evil you are calling on the heads of our videoconferencing. They are not a business - they will not survive it.
  • bober1982
    bober1982 9 December 2020 19: 00
    +1
    The author is an amateur.
    When reading the article, it immediately catches the eye.
    Operational airfields are not at all ........ airfields in a smaller way, this is completely different.
  • tralflot1832
    tralflot1832 9 December 2020 19: 34
    +2
    And we all make fun of the black man loading the abrashki. It seems to me alone that the eyelets for hanging our ancient bombs were welded by the local Kulibins at the airfield. With the help of Hephaestus, these old women also fly through the windows to the "babakhs"! good
    1. Bez 310
      Bez 310 9 December 2020 19: 45
      +2
      Quote: tralflot1832
      . With the help of Hephaestus and these old women fly through the vents to the "broads"!

      Nea ...
    2. Alexander Vorontsov
      9 December 2020 20: 02
      +4
      Quote: tralflot1832
      With the help of Hephaestus, these old women also fly through the vents to the "broads"!

      Alas, what they write about Hephaestus (accuracy like guided weapons) is impossible in principle.
      Yes, this is an upgrade over the previous generation.

      But adjustable ammunition and free-fall, as were different things, and will remain for a long time in the foreseeable future.
      1. tralflot1832
        tralflot1832 9 December 2020 20: 36
        +1
        Well I'm for advertising, quo? meters attainable for Hephaestus!
  • Bez 310
    Bez 310 9 December 2020 19: 50
    +10
    There are many mistakes in this article, but the main thing
    the author caught it absolutely correctly - when
    suspension of weapons on airplanes, mainly
    used "human strength", and very
    primitive winches.
    In general, like in the Stone Age ... And this is the author
    have not yet seen the roll-in and suspension of the X-22 on the Tu-22m.
    A bomb or mine suspension options on
    Tu-22m is a terrible horror.
    1. Lozovik
      Lozovik 9 December 2020 22: 34
      0
      Quote: Bez 310
      In general, like in the Stone Age ... And this is the author
      have not yet seen the roll-in and suspension of the X-22 on the Tu-22m.

      If the driver is an experienced engineer, then no problem.

      https://ok.ru/video/88463444604 (смотреть со 2-й минуты)
      1. Bez 310
        Bez 310 9 December 2020 22: 50
        +2
        Quote: Lozovik
        If the driver is an experienced engineer, then no problem.

        On the driver with us, in MA, there is always a senior calculation -
        right pilot. You showed the seaming of the side KR,
        but the central CD is not so easy to roll. But
        this is not the point, but the "high degree of automation"
        process.
        1. Lozovik
          Lozovik 11 December 2020 10: 06
          0
          Quote: Bez 310
          On the driver with us, in MA, there is always a senior calculation -
          right pilot.

          Hmm, MA is a completely different planet ... Usually a senior technician of the AB service group is on the driver, if the middle product is the group leader.

          Quote: Bez 310
          But
          this is not the point, but the "high degree of automation"
          process.

          How can you automate the suspension of a 12-meter fool? Perhaps the development of a bogie with an electric drive and all controlled axles.
          1. Alexander Vorontsov
            11 December 2020 10: 57
            -1
            Quote: Lozovik
            How can you automate the suspension of a 12-meter fool? Perhaps the development of a bogie with an electric drive and all controlled axles.

            Have you opened the video?
            There is just such a cart and goes with a full drum of missiles. And hangs the whole drum at once.
      2. Alexander Vorontsov
        10 December 2020 10: 47
        -1
        Quote: Lozovik
        If the driver is an experienced engineer, then no problem.

        In my opinion, here it is somehow more effective

        2 people instead of 8 at the rolling stage.

        Somewhere this difference is greater, but somewhere less.
        But in the context of that topic about the Tu-160, the logic was that the plane is difficult to maintain, and therefore the plane is bad.

        And it is understandable that if the Americans reload 8 missiles with a drum, this is the bottom.
        And when ours will load 24 missiles into the Tu-160 by the method you have demonstrated, it will turn out there that they will be rolling missiles only for a day.
        1. Lozovik
          Lozovik 11 December 2020 10: 21
          0
          Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
          In my opinion, here it is somehow more effective

          It is very difficult to install an MCU, the service team needs a whole working day for this.

          Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
          But in the context of that topic about the Tu-160, the logic was that the plane is difficult to maintain, and therefore the plane is bad.

          The logic is that this aircraft requires a lot of effort by the IAS and MTO equipment, mainly due to the fact that it was created according to an erroneous concept, while being purely nominally supersonic.

          Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
          And it is understandable that if the Americans reload 8 missiles with a drum, this is the bottom.
          And when ours will load 24 missiles into the Tu-160 by the method you have demonstrated, it will turn out there that they will be rolling missiles only for a day.

          Americans know how to equip normally

    2. Alexander Vorontsov
      10 December 2020 11: 35
      -1
      Quote: Bez 310
      Many mistakes in this article,

      What are the mistakes?
      I'm really interested in general development.
      1. Bez 310
        Bez 310 10 December 2020 11: 48
        +1
        Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
        What are the mistakes?

        Excuse me, I will not be in the article "catching fleas"
        just lazy, but for example, a name like
        "airfield of departure", I did not hear, although I served
        in aviation for 30 years.
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          10 December 2020 11: 58
          -1
          Quote: Bez 310
          Excuse me, I will not be in the article "catching fleas"
          just lazy, but for example, a name like
          "airfield of departure", I did not hear, although I served
          in aviation for 30 years.

          Is "dispersal" a more accurate term?
          1. Bez 310
            Bez 310 10 December 2020 12: 07
            0
            Quote: Alexander Vorontsov
            "Dispersion"

            Maybe...
            All this is indicated in the "textbooks", but I no longer need this knowledge.
  • miner804
    miner804 9 December 2020 20: 08
    -6
    They work in the construction battalion, and in the aviation they defend their homeland. Or perform tasks.
  • Andrey Kazantsev
    Andrey Kazantsev 9 December 2020 20: 11
    +4
    This was a problem back in the Second World War, but until now, no one pays attention to such an important thing as the rear, logistical support, and logistics.
    1. iouris
      iouris 9 December 2020 21: 44
      +1
      Quote: Andrey Kazantsev
      This problem was in the Second World War

      Even a saying was born: "Backward American technology and friendly Soviet collective."
      It's just that bombs over 250 kg were practically not used. The Germans even had a special teaser for the Russians: "Dafai-dafai."
      1. Alexander Vorontsov
        10 December 2020 10: 51
        -2
        Quote: iouris
        The Germans even had a special teaser for the Russians: "Dafai-dafai."

        In terms of humor. The suspension of heavy weapons looks like this =))
  • agoran
    agoran 9 December 2020 20: 55
    +6
    The author, let's say, is a little off topic.
    We take the period 80-90 years, IBA.
    There were hydraulically driven AB suspension trolleys.
    There were trolleys with hydraulic lifting for missiles.
    There were winches for the X-29 suspension.
    Manually, yes, they produced the suspension of the "practical", P-50, it's just faster, but hanging the 500 kg caliber ammunition manually is from the realm of fantasy.
    1. iouris
      iouris 9 December 2020 21: 48
      0
      Quote: agoran
      The author, let's say, is a little off topic.

      But I honestly tried to figure it out ... That's just for what?
      1. agoran
        agoran 9 December 2020 21: 56
        +1
        Well, these are questions for the author.
        I liked (it 80-90 yy) on an aircraft carrier in the electric car produced nigga suspension BC.
        Maybe setting, but on our carts it was difficult to accurately set the yoke and the beam suspension points the first time.
  • 7,62h54
    7,62h54 9 December 2020 21: 20
    +1
    What was that?
  • Lozovik
    Lozovik 9 December 2020 22: 32
    +6
    All procedures were carried out slowly, constantly consulted with the instructions and discussed with representatives of the design bureau. And if over time the deficit of "skills" and "knowledge" of the personnel was solved, and the time for servicing was reduced, then the problem of the almost complete absence of technically effective solutions for servicing the aircraft remained and could no longer be solved by "crafts". Since the wooden home-made carts no longer "took out" the equipment YES.

    For each type of aircraft, there are dozens of positions of auxiliary equipment and tools - from headlight leveling devices to protective mats. Of course, there are also assembly trolleys with replaceable cradles.


    When I took the new Tu-22M2 from the 22nd plant, the property went with it for two railway cars and one An-12.
  • Selevc
    Selevc 9 December 2020 22: 59
    +3
    It seems to me that the point is not only in different ways of servicing aircraft in the Russian Federation and in the West ... The fact is that the work of army supply services is built completely differently in our country and in the West !!! In the Russian Federation, the traditional approach - maximum manual work, mechanisms only where you cannot do without them, they also like to mechanize everything as much as possible and work with your hands minimally ... Moreover, these principles have evolved since ancient times and they are traditional and laid down even at the level of the highest bosses ... Anglo-Americans and especially Germans love to organize their workplace correctly, in Russia they traditionally also do this, but often for show or for show - but in fact they often work in the old fashioned way "with the help of a scrap and such a mother" ...

    So to speak, we and they have fundamentally different mentality and approach to work ... This applies in general to all spheres of life and the army, of course, in the first place ...
  • Fitter65
    Fitter65 10 December 2020 00: 09
    +3
    The advantages of co-location are obvious: there is a powerful civil infrastructure that does not require money for its maintenance in peacetime, but, on the contrary, generates income.
    You have to pay for the use of the most powerful civilian infrastructure ...
  • kit88
    kit88 10 December 2020 02: 38
    +11
    The author of course raised an interesting topic. But, as noted above, the author is not entirely in the military topic.
    All these "robotic manipulators of the KUKA type", Scania as TK, "officers must buy hats and glasses for fighters" ... Why would an officer buy uniforms for a soldier? And what is the main thing then? Or we’ll walk around the airfield not in uniform dressed but in whatever we wish ...
    For this self-made cart with bombs, the weapons engineer, of course, must be severely chided.
    According to experience, products of the R-60, R-73, R-27 type incl. R-27E is easier to hang with your hands than to fence a garden with hydraulic lifts.
    And about a robot of the KUKA type, which "can easily" find "a fuel filler neck on an airplane and perform all the required manipulations." (Why ?! A mechanic who is not able to dock the suction cup himself?)
    Why just pour kerosene? The plane still needs to be refueled with air, oxygen, nitrogen, oil, alcohol ... Apparently, the robot-cook will also refuel. Well, Cook will also do the suspension of all TSA.
    N-yes, where would I get such a Cook ...
    But seriously, of course, mechanization, automation is needed. We need more of it. And I would say that apart from the suspension of weapons, which does not happen very often in practice, there is still no war now, in everyday activities no one hangs bombs every day. We need automation for such things:
    The technician came to the parking lot in the morning, and to work:

    Here, Cook's robot would definitely not interfere, since the technician has only the good old La-fifth from the automation.
    There is no hangar!
    1. Alexander Vorontsov
      10 December 2020 04: 21
      -1
      Quote: kit88
      What for?! Mechanic, who is not able to dock the suction cup himself?)

      Then why and everywhere automation is replacing humans - robots are better at doing the same type of work.
      Faster. Better quality. Their hands do not get tired. Back does not hurt. They don't need to sleep. They do not ask for housing, food, water or money.
      They will not make a hole in the spacecraft, and then being scared they will not plug it with chewing gum, so that the hole would be found in space (a reference to the story with Roscosmos).

      Well, Cook will also do the suspension of all TSA.

      And this is where everything goes.

      Americans in 20 years, I think that yes, they will hang.
      Well, what is essentially left?
      They have a loader. The 2nd person in the loader team simply fixes the ammunition by pre-positioning.
      Robots have long performed micron-precision work better than humans.


      All these perversions, where they stretch their heads and look where they hang there - this is a perversion today. You just need a system that will indicate to the robot the zero point on the ammunition, for example, relative to the lock. And that's all.
      Those. at first he will simply bring the manipulator at a distance of + - 30 centimeters from the lock, press a button and the robot will hang itself.

      And then just complicate it.
      And I would say that apart from the suspension of weapons, which in practice does not happen very often, there is no war now,

      The army in general does not exist entirely for peacetime. And for the war.
      1. Flakk88
        Flakk88 11 December 2020 17: 07
        +1
        An interesting look at the problem of ITS service, including the lack of funds for small mechanization. On the other hand, all these videos were made by the press services for show, the technical staff works strictly according to the instructions, and without cameras I suppose they allow some waste from TB.
        But as you were told above, instead of robots, instead of robots, we would simply supply manual rotary snowblowers to the troops in the army, otherwise it's 21st century in the yard, and we wave shovels. It can and will be a good warm-up, they sometimes snow can go for a week without a break, and so it turns out that you will be jumping between the side and the shovel all shift. And there are a lot of such examples.
        1. Alexander Vorontsov
          11 December 2020 18: 36
          0
          Quote: Flakk88
          An interesting look at the problem of ITS service, including the lack of funds for small mechanization. On the other hand, all these videos were made by the press services for show, the technical staff works strictly according to the instructions, and without cameras I suppose they allow some waste from TB.
          But as you were told above, instead of robots, instead of robots, we would simply supply manual rotary snowblowers to the troops in the army, otherwise it's 21st century in the yard, and we wave shovels. It can and will be a good warm-up, they sometimes snow can go for a week without a break, and so it turns out that you will be jumping between the side and the shovel all shift. And there are a lot of such examples.

          Waste from TB is of course allowed. But this does not negate the fact of the availability of equipment and those. funds.

          some waste from TB

          What I was talking about ... context is important here.
          If Kuznetsov heroically returned after completing the combat mission perfectly well - there is one conversation.
          But when they lost for technical reasons on the plane for every 200 sorties, it seems that it was not me (not only me) who needed to read the rules and guidelines.
          And running around naked on the deck here only complements the overall picture.
        2. Alexander Vorontsov
          11 December 2020 18: 40
          0
          Quote: Flakk88
          It can and will be a good warm-up, they sometimes snow can go for a week without a break, and so it turns out that you will be jumping between the side and the shovel throughout the shift. And there are a lot of such examples.

          Well, no, robots are already the pinnacle of evolution.
          We need to move from simple to complex, and yes, the first step is replacing shovels with mechanized snow removal equipment. Better yet, building shelters c. incl. and taking into account precipitation in the region.
  • Old major
    Old major 15 December 2020 16: 39
    0
    The author has no idea what he is writing about. That is, absolutely. It is absolutely not in the subject of either the aviation engineering service, or the aerodrome service, or the fuel and lubricants service. For some reason he calls the RAV warehouses "ASP warehouse" and so on. He is completely out of topic. What is written is not even an amateurish level, but the level of a schoolchild or student in the humanities, writing with an intelligent air in the style of "I think so."
  • Evgeny Seleznev
    Evgeny Seleznev 1 January 2021 14: 43
    +1
    Infrastructure and logistics. And the poor airfield company + ATO. Supply of ATO funds to 1 aircraft up to 5-7 special vehicles.