Polish press: Germany will not be able to modernize its air defense yet

The German defense department has not yet begun to sign an agreement on the creation of the domestic integrated air defense system Taktisches Luftverteidigungssystem (TLVS), which was supposed to replace the US Patriot complexes in Germany. In the budget of the Federal Republic of Germany next year, an insufficient amount has been allocated for these purposes, and the entire program for further modernization of air defense will still be discussed. As a result, Germany will not be able to modernize its air defense yet.

It is reported by the Polish edition of Defense 24.

The press service of the MBDA Deutschland concern, which is the manufacturer of TLVS, reported that after the preliminary decision of the parliament, only a small amount was allocated for the implementation of the tactical air defense program, so the conclusion of an agreement for the implementation of the program in 2021 is not planned. In turn, the head of the German defense department Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer said that a comprehensive analysis of the air defense system at various altitudes would be carried out, and its results would be made public in the first months of next year.

Another delay for the TLVS program is a big blow to the modernization process of the Bundeswehr. Moreover, this system, together with IRIS-T SL missiles, was supposed to provide short-range air defense, which was actually eliminated many years ago after the Hawk and Roland complexes were decommissioned.

Actually, ground-based air defense systems are one of the most underdeveloped types of NATO weapons.

TLVS is a joint project of the American company Lockheed Martin and the German MBDA, intended to replace Patriot air defense systems in the German army.

Comments

[Lord of the Sith]

TLVS is a joint project of the American company Lockheed Martin and the German MBDA, intended to replace Patriot air defense systems in the German army.

Until the word "American company" is absent from the development, the Germans will never build their own air defense.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Lord of the Sith

TLVS is a joint project of the American company Lockheed Martin and the German MBDA, intended to replace Patriot air defense systems in the German army.

Until the word "American company" is absent from the development, the Germans will never build their own air defense.

Why do they need their own in NATO?
Why can't they do things together in NATO?

Or is it very bad that our weapons systems contain a lot of Belarusian military components? Is that supposed to make us feel flawed?

[Machito]

Why does Germany need air defense in principle? Against who? Against Russia? We are firmly tied to Germany by gas pipes and fought with each other to the very best. Against the USA? So the gold reserve of Germany in Fort Knox and the striped base of the occupiers in Ramstein. Germany is not threatened. Perhaps Poland. But the Germans will shower her with slippers if necessary.

[Orange bigg]

Quote: Bearded

Why does Germany need air defense in principle? Against who? Against Russia? We are firmly tied to Germany by gas pipes and fought with each other to the very best. Against the USA? So the gold reserve of Germany in Fort Knox and the striped base of the occupiers in Ramstein. Germany is not threatened. Perhaps Poland. But the Germans will shower her with slippers if necessary.

You will not object to the fact that a country like Germany with its economy and level of technological development is a priori obliged to have a strong army and if it were not for a restraining policy in relation to military construction on the part of the United States, it would be so. that the German army is not so strong and is sufficiently dependent on the United States.

[Overlock]

Quote: OrangeBigg

as Germany with its economy and level of technological development a priori must have strong army

this word is controversial. It must have a sufficient army that does not burden the economy. Germany has long conquered Europe economically, so why does she need a strong army?

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Overlock

Quote: OrangeBigg

as Germany with its economy and level of technological development a priori must have strong army

this word is controversial. It must have a sufficient army that does not burden the economy. Germany has long conquered Europe economically, so why does she need a strong army?

To save your economy.
To fulfill the requirements of NATO.
If Germany does not comply with NATO requirements, then it will have much less chance of selling military equipment to all other countries. Both NATO and others.

[Orange bigg]

Quote: Overlock

Quote: OrangeBigg

as Germany with its economy and level of technological development a priori must have strong army

this word is controversial. It must have a sufficient army that does not burden the economy. Germany has long conquered Europe economically, so why does she need a strong army?

At least in order to protect their conquests, but as a maximum to move and conquer further.

[Overlock]

Quote: OrangeBigg

At least in order to protect their conquests, but as a maximum to move and conquer further.

That's how it's done! The outline of the EU is an exact copy of the 3rd Reich. The economy is one of the dominant in Europe. Why fight if you can win economically?

[Alex777]

Why fight if you can win economically?

Here are the Turks, they bought the air defense system. It would seem why?
And how upset the States were that they could not bomb with impunity on occasion.
So the Germans. What if you have to defend SP-2?
The Germans, of course, are not very active in sending troops around the world.
But it is not known in advance how the chip will fall.
Are they building expedition ships?
Expeditionary forces must be covered.
Will they not always fight the Taliban on foot?

[alpamys]

Quote: OrangeBigg

At least in order to protect their conquests, but as a maximum to move and conquer further.

from whom to protect, continue to live in the 20th century?
all the bellicose statements of German politicians clowns are far from ordinary Germans who live with simple everyday problems.

[Machito]

And who will allow Germany to have a strong army?
And why does Germany need a strong army? Economically, it enslaved all neighbors. With whom and why should she fight? And the Minister of Defense is almost a gynecologist.

[Overlock]

Quote: Bearded

Why does Germany need air defense in principle? Against who? Against Russia?

everything is logical No demand

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Bearded

Why does Germany need air defense in principle? Against who? Against Russia? We are firmly tied to Germany by gas pipes and fought with each other to the very best. Against the USA? So the gold reserve of Germany in Fort Knox and the striped base of the occupiers in Ramstein. Germany is not threatened. Perhaps Poland. But the Germans will shower her with slippers if necessary.

Then, that Germany is a member of NATO and is obliged to act in accordance with NATO directives.
And where is it against whom?
NATO was created against the Social Bloc (Soviet Union + European Socialist Countries).
As well as the Warsaw Pact against NATO.

Now, if your logic is: "Against whom?"
Answer yourself and all of us.
Why is Russia creating and promoting the CSTO?
Against who?


And no one and no one is connected by any pipes - do not try to let the dust in your eyes.
The European gas system is already fully diversified.
If gas transit stops, they will restore it in 2 months without losses - they will have enough reserves in gas storage facilities.
Many built LNG terminals and newly built pipelines in the southern part of Europe, using the existing GTS of Europe, will easily do without Russian gas. Only Germany will have the maximum losses from this.
But ...
It will lose part of its import income and that's it.
She will not remain without gas.

[New Year day]

Quote: SovAr238A

that Germany is a member of NATO and is obliged to act in accordance with NATO directives.
And where is it against whom?

that's how Trump knocked money out of them. Germany threw money into the economy, as it itself is under the umbrella of the United States. Why waste your money?

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Silvestr

Quote: SovAr238A

that Germany is a member of NATO and is obliged to act in accordance with NATO directives.
And where is it against whom?

that's how Trump knocked money out of them. Germany threw money into the economy, as it itself is under the umbrella of the United States. Why waste your money?

Trump did not knock out, and did not take away, and did not force to spend exorbitant money.

He demanded that NATO countries fulfill the obligations they signed to finance military spending in the amount of 2% of GDP.
To which they signed up by joining NATO.
It's just that some countries began to reduce their costs, believing that the United States should protect them all.
Someone halved the military budget, someone half.
To which Trump, being quite an ordinary person, responded by forcing them to "pay under contracts"
Nobody wants to leave NATO, but many want to join NATO.

I'll tell you even more ...
Even the USSR and Russia were asked to consider joining NATO ..
in 1954, 1983, 1991 and 2002.
On their own terms.
But precisely joining NATO !!!
Soviet Union and Russia.

I am sure that this is for some "pattern break" ...

[New Year day]

Quote: SovAr238A

He demanded that NATO countries fulfill the obligations they signed to finance military spending in the amount of 2% of GDP.

"did not knock out, but demanded" - the wording is different, the meaning is the same

Quote: SovAr238A

On their own terms.
But precisely joining NATO !!!
Soviet Union and Russia.

I did not know about the Union, I remember about Russia

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Silvestr

"did not knock out, but demanded" - the wording is different, the meaning is the same

Well, here's a simple analogy.

You have a dacha on a dead-end street.
And it needs to be cleaned.
The meeting of summer residents agreed that everyone participates in money.
At first everyone paid.
And then some "begin" ...
Oh, and I rarely go ...
Oh, and I have a UAZ, I'll pass it anyway ...
Oh, but I have no money now.
And you pay ... And some others too ...
As agreed...
Full figure ...
Just like your claims to neighbors. on default on their obligations will be called?
Requirements to pay according to the contract?
Or knocking out the dough?

Just set yourself a wording, abstracting from Trump, from NATO, from another ...
After all, the situation is exactly like this ..

[Machito]

Quote: SovAr238A

Quote: Bearded

Why does Germany need air defense in principle? Against who? Against Russia? We are firmly tied to Germany by gas pipes and fought with each other to the very best. Against the USA? So the gold reserve of Germany in Fort Knox and the striped base of the occupiers in Ramstein. Germany is not threatened. Perhaps Poland. But the Germans will shower her with slippers if necessary.

Then, that Germany is a member of NATO and is obliged to act in accordance with NATO directives.
And where is it against whom?
NATO was created against the Social Bloc (Soviet Union + European Socialist Countries).
As well as the Warsaw Pact against NATO.

Now, if your logic is: "Against whom?"
Answer yourself and all of us.
Why is Russia creating and promoting the CSTO?
Against who?


And no one and no one is connected by any pipes - do not try to let the dust in your eyes.
The European gas system is already fully diversified.
If gas transit stops, they will restore it in 2 months without losses - they will have enough reserves in gas storage facilities.
Many built LNG terminals and newly built pipelines in the southern part of Europe, using the existing GTS of Europe, will easily do without Russian gas. Only Germany will have the maximum losses from this.
But ...
It will lose part of its import income and that's it.
She will not remain without gas.

Do not confuse warm and soft. NATO member Germany has Patriots. In the article, the author writes about the development by Germany of its own non-American air defense system. Russia that will attack Germany? But why are they buying little gas? We are more dependent on Germany than she is. But Germany, at the expense of our cheap gas, keeps the whole of Europe in tight-knit gloves. The union of Russia and Germany is a nightmare of the European Union and the United States.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Bearded

Do not confuse warm and soft. NATO member Germany has Patriots. In the article, the author writes about the development by Germany of its own non-American air defense system. Russia that will attack Germany? But why are they buying little gas? We are more dependent on Germany than she is. But Germany, at the expense of our cheap gas, keeps the whole of Europe in tight-knit gloves. The union of Russia and Germany is a nightmare of the European Union and the United States.

In my opinion, it is you who are confusing both warm and soft and the other.
Patriot - long-range air defense system.
Air defense systems based on IRIS are medium and short-range air defense systems.
Which usually cover the long-range KMD. and are also located in certain areas.
This type of air defense system, namely short and medium range, is vital to any country.

How does it not reach you that a member of a military bloc (even NATO) is obliged to fulfill the requirements of this very military bloc.
Must.

Germany does not keep anyone in Europe, in any iron gloves. For the entire GTS of Europe belongs to an international European consortium. Owners' rights are very strongly limited by these very European energy packages. so Germany is there - in terms of "steer" there is no one to call. There are plenty of all kinds of limitrophes (Czech Republic, Slovakia, all sorts, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Belgium and Holland, all sorts of Baltic estonia, Lithuania and Latvia) who together can pin down Germany's tail in terms of legislation and economic policy regarding their dependence on Germany. What they have already done with the success of these same energy packages.

There will never be a union between Germany and Russia.
For Germany is already in alliance with Europe.
Such an alliance from which she will never escape anywhere.
It has already been so strongly "integrated" into all European institutions and economies that it can leave without colossal losses, from which it will never recover - it cannot

[Overlock]

Quote: SovAr238A

is obliged to fulfill the requirements of this very military bloc.
Must.

As you will not understand, "must", but does not want to do it and does not do it. It's simple

[SovAr238A]

Quote: Overlock

Quote: SovAr238A

is obliged to fulfill the requirements of this very military bloc.
Must.

As you will not understand, "must", but does not want to do it and does not do it. It's simple

You don't need to pass off your personal dreams and fantasies about what the behavior of a NATO member country and the European Union should be like reality ...

Do not try.
You don't understand anything about contractual relationships and realities ...

[DymOk_v_dYmke]

Quote: Bearded

NATO member Germany has Patriots. In the article, the author writes about the development by Germany of its own non-American air defense system. Russia that will attack Germany?

The point is not who and whom will attack and whether or not, but if it is obliged to drive 2% of GDP into defense, then it is more profitable for it to spend it on its factories and developers than on staff.

[Orange bigg]

Or is it very bad that our weapons systems contain a lot of Belarusian military components?

.
Name these components. Possibly soon we will substitute import for them, if Tikhanovskaya gets hold of power.
Certainly bad in terms of technological independence.
Today they will sell, but tomorrow they will not. It is better to do everything ourselves from the very beginning. And all partnerships only increase the price of the final product. Remember our former dependence on the same Ukraine for engines. Until they started making engines, there was a dependence. And in general, if you want to do well, do it well. itself says popular wisdom.

Why do they need their own in NATO?
Why can't they do things together in NATO?

Their workers from the military-industrial complex also want to eat. Yes, and all the same, their own economy, their production, sales markets. Money in the end. You will also ask why the French Renault and Citroen, or the Germans Mercedes and BMW when there are Japanese Toyota.

[SovAr238A]

Quote: OrangeBigg

Or is it very bad that our weapons systems contain a lot of Belarusian military components?

.
Name these components. Possibly soon we will substitute import for them, if Tikhanovskaya gets hold of power.
Certainly bad in terms of technological independence.
Today they will sell, but tomorrow they will not. It is better to do everything ourselves from the very beginning. And all partnerships only increase the price of the final product. Remember our former dependence on the same Ukraine for engines. Until they started making engines, there was a dependence. And in general, if you want to do well, do it well. itself says popular wisdom.

Why do they need their own in NATO?
Why can't they do things together in NATO?

Their workers from the military-industrial complex also want to eat. Yes, and all the same, their own economy, their production, sales markets. Money in the end. You will also ask why the French Renault and Citroen, or the Germans Mercedes and BMW when there are Japanese Toyota.

Were they in Europe?
There are more French cars in Germany than in France itself.

Only the French remained their military enterprises in Europe.
All others have long been transnational.
And in Germany and in Italy and in Britain - almost nothing is left of their own.
And even in the same USA - BAESystems. Leonardo, Arbas, Fincantieri, Rolls-Royce ...
Joint.

Make 4 engines yourself a year?
Build an extremely costly production for 4 engines per year.
These engines will and will be gold.
For their cost will include R&D and preparation of production, and equipment and technical equipment and training of workers and everything related.
Ten times more expensive than purchased ones.
Therefore, they ordered them at MashZor.
And if there was no such situation with the Donbass, they would continue to buy further.
The military economy is also an economy.
And she, too, must be economical and prudent.
If you have to pay your entire military budget for 4 engines (gold, but your own), and deprive the tank industry, aviation, etc. of money.
Here you have a glass of 200 grams (ala your budget) and divide it as you want for 10 people ...

Any industry just has to have potential. Development.
And if you do it only for yourself - then there is no development and will not be.
Especially in the context of a decrease in the income of the population and the collection of taxes, including those for the army and the military-industrial complex.

[DymOk_v_dYmke]

Quote: SovAr238A

Make 4 engines yourself a year?
Build an extremely costly production for 4 engines per year.
These engines will and will be gold.
For their cost will include R&D and preparation of production, and equipment and technical equipment and training of workers and everything related.
Ten times more expensive than purchased ones.

A well-done work will pay off investments in export.

[Machito]

Keep away from you. Why remember Tikhanovskaya at night. What if you dream?

[DAQ]

Or is it very bad that our weapons systems contain a lot of Belarusian military components? Is that supposed to make us feel flawed?

Ukraine was also a fraternal republic. A lot of things were produced there for the defense industry. Motor Sich, Design Bureau Yuzhnoe, Yuzhmash and other organizations. And all the cooperation was closed.

Why do they need their own in NATO?
Why can't they do things together in NATO?

"Own" means independence, whatever one may say.
For example, the Swedes and Koreans burned down fighters, American engines. Now the US cannot sell without consent. It will be necessary not only for export, but they themselves will remain without engines and spare parts.

[Andrei Nikolaevich]

Well, the Poles know better. The Germans passed through Poland and without air defense, in 1939.

[Overlock]

Quote: Andrey Nikolaevich

The Germans passed through Poland and without air defense, in 1939.

Without air defense and will walk once more, if necessary

[Vasyan1971]

An insufficient amount has been allocated for this purpose in the FRG budget next year.

Naturally! All forces are spent on supporting the Poles and other tribals. Therefore, a revision of the priority goals and objectives is coming. Probably...

[Graz]

gee gee, in the end, the Yankees will push through something from their missile defense, air defense

[Uncle lee]

Quote: Graz

the Yankees will push through something from their missile defense, air defense

And we Germans have our S-400! And on credit!

[Runoway]

The Germans have the only threat and it can only be eliminated with the S-400 (and other echelons)

[askort154]

Runoway ....The Germans have a single threat and it can only be eliminated with the S-400 (and other echelons)

A good option ! Only to place the S-400 in Kaliningrad (although I have no doubt that they are already there), and to take tax from the Germans to ensure their safety. For them it will be the cheapest option, and the Poles will go to feces out of envy.

[9PA]

No one should have a strong fleet, air defense and yao, Paxamerican. What happens if America launches small nuclear strikes on industrial centers in the South Caucasus, Japan, China and Europe?

[SovAr238A]

Quote: 9PA

No one should have a strong fleet, air defense and yao, Paxamerican. What happens if America launches small nuclear strikes on industrial centers in the South Caucasus, Japan, China and Europe?

My first question is: What will actually happen in your opinion?

Question two: What reasons should be caused by this blow?
Question three: What results will this blow bring?

[9PA]

1. There will remain the only industrially developed civilization on the planet, to which the Papuans cannot swim with all their will. Now we are in such a time that the winner will get the planet forever

Everything is concentrated in America, and first of all the most advanced production facilities, or why the colonies have no air defense?

[SovAr238A]

Quote: 9PA

1. There will remain the only industrially developed civilization on the planet, to which the Papuans cannot swim with all their will. Now we are in such a time that the winner will get the planet forever

Everything is concentrated in America, and first of all the most advanced production facilities, or why the colonies have no air defense?

The most advanced?
In America?
Oh well...


If you bomb what you want, the world is overthrown at once into a huge stagnation.
It will immediately drop to the level of 1950-60.
And the technological level too.
Believe me.
This is the usual economy of the world in the context of globalization.

And America will immediately fall there.
In the same 1950th year.

Forgotten already because of the stop of China - after 3 weeks, half of American industry stopped?
Half of the Russian car industry has stopped.
The European auto industry has stopped.

And not only the auto industry.
All microelectronics stood up.

And if you bomb both China and Japan and the South Caucasus - what will you quickly replace them with?

You are not in math.

There are living people and living enterprises everywhere.

We could not make a marine engine in conditions of full state support for 7 years ...
Moreover, we have all the competencies and we have almost 70 years of experience in producing turbines.


Do you want like a computer game?
Once and bought the plant and people, two - went to replace China and Japan and the South Caucasus?

How far away are you from production issues ...

[9PA]

What you are talking about is the past technological order oriented towards large masses of people and consumption. America is preparing to move into the next era, and completely and forever own the planet, and the current level of human development (unprecedented) will allow it to do so. Explain to me why no one has its own air defense except for the South Caucasus (and that is the minimum amount), why is there a monopoly on the ocean fleet in the world?
When that project globalization will collapse.

You have $ 10 billion. what will be your main goal, probably to transform them into power and the future. Everyone understands that these are vulnerable virtual numbers, factories and steamers are no longer so valuable. A healthy planet integrated into future human development begins to represent the greatest value

[Tankodrom]

Polish press: Germany will not be able to modernize its air defense yet

Sounds ridiculous from Poland .. And the Germans still do not consider you Poles as opponents .. Sly, you took a direct part in the Holocaust, and especially against the Russians .. This is all fixed!
Germany to kick you love But served the Nazis ideologically all the same

[Sergey39]

The costs and revenues were not divided between Lockheed Martin and the German MBDA and decided to leave the Patriots.

[Evil Booth]

good old. but there was no air defense in NATO and there will not be, and the Saudi port is an example of this. 25 out of 25 through a continuous echelon with a lot of all kinds of forward. Pak123 and others.

[UAZ 452]

I don’t understand one thing: why is Poland so interested in the state of the German air defense? Planning air strikes?

[Overlock]

Quote: UAZ 452

I don’t understand one thing: why is Poland so interested in the state of the German air defense? Planning air strikes?

great question!

[Dkuznecov]

They, the Poles, are offended that alone
took on ruinous spending on
defense industry. They flattered-flattered their pride,
then we took up the calculator.
The principle "why should we alone suffer"?

[Ros 56]

In order to modernize the air defense of the Germans, it is necessary to obtain permission from the striped ones. And the striped ones will not give it until they modernize their useless Patriot and sell the result of their modernization to Germany.

[APASUS]

Who dares to attack Germany? Why do they even need the Army and the Navy? It is the Poles who are being bullied by the Americans, on the subject of the fact that their land is golden and the Russians need it by the cut ...........

[Baron pardus]

Naturally. This takes money. And when you have Caudle of "refugees" who do not want to WORK, resources, and still require, organizing riots and trashing neighborhoods, then there will be no money for air defense. The same "refugees" commit so many crimes that for the INVESTIGATION, and at the same time for the prosecution and imprisonment of these "poor oppressed refugees" from Africa and the Middle East, who do not even want to learn German - MONEY is also needed. So it's not like there won't be money for air defense. For new rifles too. Which is natural. Any country where the number of "Non-bearers of traditional values ​​and culture" exceeds 10% risks getting themselves HUGE problems. And the size of these problems depends on the number of "representatives of unique, distinctive cultures," and at the same time on HOW these cultures differ from each other. Here's an example. In Ireland, Catholics and Anglicans (Christians, by the way) wet each other right up to the 90s of the last century. About the 30 year war in Germany (also Christians against Christians), I just keep silent. The Germans, as an ethnic group, suffered such a psychological trauma that it is not surprising that the Germans did so many horrors in the Second World War. Therefore, any "multiculturalism and diving" is a time bomb. Ask the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The United States is now following the same path. The only difference is that the US can simply PRINT new dollars, but Germany cannot.

[Vlad Pervovich]

let him buy from GDP ;-))

[Zomanus]

Why does Germany need air defense when they are already under American occupation? Let America protect them. I doubt that America will tolerate a competitor in this area.