Military Review

Second edition of serfdom

240
Second edition of serfdom
Sale of a courtyard girl in the painting by artist Nikolai Nevrev “Bargaining. A scene from a serf life. From the Recent Past "(1866, Moscow, Tretyakov Gallery)


So, we have to wrap by the way
The other side is a medal.
Suppose the peasant child is free
Grows without learning anything
But he will grow up, if God pleases,
And nothing prevents him from bending.
(Nikolay Nekrasov. "Peasant Children")

The beginning and end of the peasant civilization. So, for millennia, all progress, the entire culture of human civilization has been based on peasant labor. 80% of the world's population lived in the countryside, and only 20% - and this is the maximum, but actually less - lived in cities. And the bulk of these peasants in European countries were in serfdom depending on the feudal lords, while free people lived in cities. "The air of the city makes free" - this is a popular saying of the medieval era. It was enough to live in the city for one year and one day, and your master could no longer claim you as his property. But then an unexpected and pernicious climate change happened, a need arose, and ... for the sake of it, in one of the European countries, the issue of land ownership was very radically resolved. In fact, then in England - the country that was discussed in our last material of this cycle, the peasantry was destroyed as a class. But a class of workers and industry appeared, and the country pulled ahead in comparison with all other European states ...


Kiev. "Vedomosti" 1838 Announcement of the sale of serfs

However, you can't dine on machines, so the British had to import food from abroad, which made their country somewhat vulnerable in the event of war. Napoleon also tried to take advantage of this vulnerability, wishing to deprive her of Russian bread, which, as we know, led to the war of 1812, which became ... the beginning of its end. Since then, no one has encroached on the intercontinental trade of Britain until Hitler, who, however, did not succeed either, although the British had to limit consumption and plow Hyde Park for potatoes. But this happened later. In the meantime, we will consider the situation of the peasants in those countries where, according to the figurative expression of Friedrich Engels, after the British reforms in the field of peasant land tenure, there was a "second edition of serfdom."


A smart country house, a smart country wedding ...

But the "second edition of serfdom" happened in countries such as the Commonwealth, Hungary, Russia, Czech Republic, Denmark, and in most of the states of eastern Germany: Prussia, McLenburg, Pomerania and Austria. In all these countries, market relations and private property already existed, which distinguishes their "right" from the classical serfdom of the early feudal era. The new serfdom differed from the previous one in that the former corvée agriculture was no longer natural, but commodity, and was included in the market. Another peculiarity was that the peasants were the private property of landowners: the trade in souls (and often without land) was widespread in Pomerania, Russia, McLenburg and the Commonwealth. That is, we are already dealing in fact with the most real slavery, which distinguishes this form of exploitation of the peasants from their exploitation in England and France.

Marxist historical science explains what happened by an increase in the demand for bread in England, and then in France, which also over time put its economy on a capitalist track, and the strengthening of the power of state power, which has learned to cope even with such actions of the lower classes as Razinshchina and Pugachevshchina. Another point of view: the development of civilization proceeded in the direction from west to east and therefore - again due to the influence of the natural geographic factor - was delayed. But the supporters of the "theory of dependent development" explain this by the fact that in the process of introducing capitalist relations into traditional society, modernization occurs in it only partially (say, enclaves of modern military production at that time appear), but only due to the massive archaization of social relations due to their limits, including the return to serfdom of the peasants or even its tightening in those places where it was in the process of its decay. Indeed, if we look over the years, we will see that serfdom in the countries of Eastern Europe was abolished in waves, and the more “continental”, let's say, the country was, the ... later serfdom was liquidated in it: in the Czech Republic it was abolished in 1781 year, in Prussia - in 1807, in Mecklenburg - in 1820, in Hanover - in 1831, in Saxony - in 1832, in the Austrian Empire - in 1858, but in Hungary only in 1853, in Russia - this is 1861, although in In the Baltic provinces of Estland, Courland, Livonia and on the island of Ezel, it was canceled in 1816-1819, in Bulgaria (which was part of the Ottoman Empire) in 1879, but in Bosnia and Herzegovina only in 1918!


Peasant everyday life: weaving birch bark tues

And this is what is significant: all these states basically developed as ... agrarian appendages of the same England, in which the peasants constituted an insignificant part of the population. Of course, they had their own industry, but the machines for it were again ordered in England, as well as many other things. But there ... What was sent from Russia "there"? Before us is the "Journal of General Useful Information, or the Library of Agriculture, Industry, Agriculture, Sciences, Arts, Crafts and All Kinds of Useful Knowledge" for 1847. And from it we learn that in 1846 from the port of St. Petersburg exported abroad: bacon - 2 pounds, horse manes and tails (then they stuffed furniture with horsehair!) - 922 pieces, and wheat - 417 pounds. It turns out that lard was exported more than wheat, although this does not mean anything, because the export went through many other ports, so its volumes in it were very significant!

215 barrels of cranberries and such an "amazing thing" as ... 485 poods of the blister fly, which was then very popular, sailed there. By the way, in the same magazine, advice was given on how and with what to feed your courtyard, so that it was both well fed and healthy. And it says that for one serf living in a noble house, rye flour needs 1 pood (16 kg) per month, various cereals 1,5 poods, onions 1 pood per year. Meat was proposed to be given at a quarter of a pound (pound 400 g) on ​​soon days, which would have totaled 48 pounds a year.


Rare color photographs of life in the Russian Empire. It turns out that there were some!

True, for some reason, this list of products contains absolutely no fish, and mushrooms and berries are not mentioned either. And this was most likely not due to the greed of the landowners. It just never entered anyone's head to write about this - in their farms all these types of food raw materials were not considered food then!


We returned from the forest with a basket of nuts ...

This is the economy, but how did serfdom affect such a "shaky thing" as morality? Yes, in the most pernicious and corrupting way, and the entire population of the empire without exception - both landowners and the serfs themselves. Here, for example, that in his letter, written in April-May 1826, A.S. Pushkin wrote from his Mikhailovsky to Moscow to his friend Vyazemsky:

This letter will be handed to you by a very sweet and kind girl whom one of your friends inadvertently knocked over. I rely on your philanthropy and friendship. Take her in Moscow and give her money as much as she needs, and then send her to Boldino; posterity does not need to know about our philanthropic deeds. With this, with fatherly tenderness, I ask you to take care of the future baby, if it is a boy. I don’t want to send him to the Orphanage, but can I still send him to some village - even to Ostafyevo (Volume 9, Letter No. 192).

This girl was the serf of Pushkin, Olga Kalashnikova, who, at least in that, was lucky that she later married successfully.


Russian peasants? Yes, Russian peasants ...

Well, the great philanthropist Leo Tolstoy also did not shy away from intimate relations with his serfs. For example, with the peasant woman Aksinya from Yasnaya Polyana, who in 1860 gave birth to his son Timofey. Then there was the maid Gasha, then the cook Domna ... but as a result of all this immoralism - the highly moral novel "Resurrection". And this is only the smallest part of the chaos that was happening not in the era of dark knightly castles, but in a country that has “cut a window to Europe” for more than 200 years, a country with railways, steamships and telegraphs! Moreover, all this immoralism, corrupting both the nobility and the peasants themselves, would be justified at least somehow economically, but no ... For example, Doctor of Historical Sciences L.M. Ryansky in his doctoral dissertation “Evolution of the social and economic life of a serf village Chernozem center at the end of the 2,5th - the first half of the XNUMXth century. " writes that although the lordly field work was carried out at the optimal time for them, the peasants, forced to cultivate areas two or three times greater than their capabilities and the capabilities of their horses, hardly worked "conscientiously", and in their own arable farming they "practiced" in fits and starts and often at the wrong time. Therefore, the harvest of rye "sam-XNUMX", for example, was the norm even with very diligent cultivation of their allotment, and there is no need to talk about the landowners' lands.


Russian peasant woman, late XNUMXth century

As a result, as a result of the development of our civilization, we see that by the middle of the XNUMXth century, scientific and technological progress had risen to great heights, but the social was trailing behind it. Moreover, in countries that have made headway in their development, the number of peasants has been continuously decreasing, while the number of industrial workers has increased! All this "horde" needed to be fed - and the consequence of the development of industry is colonial expansion in relation to very underdeveloped countries, and somewhat more developed countries, due to inequality of economic relations, are turning into agrarian and raw materials appendages of "advanced countries" (who paid for this their "advanced position "In the past, both with blood and considerable suffering of their own citizens!) And export lard, wheat and ... cranberries with" Spanish flies "there.


Trutovsky K.A. Migrants from Kursk province, 1864 (State Russian Museum)

And only when the gap in the economic and military spheres becomes too significant, the authorities of such a backward country go on to abolish serfdom by means of a decree from above. Moreover, the reason why they are in no hurry is understandable. After all, all the land holdings of the landowners, for example, here in Russia, long ago turned into their private property, and to encroach on it would mean robbing ourselves. Free the peasants without land? Even worse - this is a sure way to cause trouble worse than in the days of Pugachev. Buy back the land? The government simply would not have enough money for this. So it was necessary in 1861, when it was no longer possible to delay, to resolve the issue with the peasants and landowners by way of many compromises, and not, again, as it was in Tudor England, where the interests of the peasants driven from the land were taken into account to the least extent. It should be noted that the reform itself was disgraceful and was poorly prepared even technically - the texts of the Manifesto were not enough, and they had to be read aloud, although in theory at least one copy would have to be distributed to each village. Well, the further consequences of such a radical event in our history will be discussed in the next article.

To be continued ...
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  1. apro
    apro 11 December 2020 05: 03
    +1
    The thought of the author escapes. ..no matter how hard he works as a master, he will not become. Is it an extremely backward country? Strange ...
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 11 December 2020 05: 46
      -14%
      Is it an extremely backward country? Strange ...

      How such a backward country managed to defeat the French army of Napoleon ... it's strange. To withstand the Crimean battle with a united Europe with such an archaic society ... it's very strange.
      Thank you Vyacheslav for interesting pictures and article.
      Oh, mother Russia ... you can't understand Russia with your mind, you can't measure it with a common yardstick.
      1. apro
        apro 11 December 2020 05: 52
        +16
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        Oh, mother Russia ... you can't understand Russia with your mind, you can't measure it with a common yardstick.

        Have you tried to study?
        1. Lech from Android.
          Lech from Android. 11 December 2020 06: 00
          0
          Have you tried to study?

          Tried ... in history, only fives were ... my favorite subject. smile
          I especially liked to dig into places that official historians prefer to bypass. hi
          Once I went to the historian when I was still a kid and asked to tell in more detail about the 20th Congress of the CPSU about Khrushchev's report ... so she carefully shaved me off, it became even more interesting for me ... What happened there?
          1. apro
            apro 11 December 2020 06: 15
            +3
            Quote: Lech from Android.
            Tried ... by history

            And what about political economy and georaphy?
          2. kalibr
            11 December 2020 06: 18
            +9
            Quote: Lech from Android.
            about the 20th Congress of the CPSU on Khrushchev's report ... so she carefully shaved me off so it became even more interesting for me ... what happened there?

            That is, she did not tell you that Khrushchev's scanty report as a "closed letter" was read only to the communists in the USSR, but its full text appeared in the West on its second day. And everything else was, of course, in Pravda! Could send to the library ...
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 11 December 2020 09: 34
              +11
              Quote: kalibr
              Quote: Lech from Android.
              about the 20th Congress of the CPSU on Khrushchev's report ... so she carefully shaved me off so it became even more interesting for me ... what happened there?

              That is, she did not tell you that Khrushchev's scanty report as a "closed letter" was read only to the communists in the USSR, but its full text appeared in the West on its second day. And everything else was, of course, in Pravda! Could send to the library ...

              Good morning, Vyacheslav Olegovich! hi His full report appeared in the West not on the second day, later. There was a Polish Jew named Viktor Grajewski. His girlfriend in Warsaw worked in the office of the first secretary of the Central Committee of the Polish United Workers' Party, Edward Ochab. On her desk, he saw the text of the report. I asked to read. I took it to the Israeli embassy. From there, Khrushchev's speech ended up on Ben-Gurion's table. From the Israeli Premier to the West.
              1. kalibr
                11 December 2020 11: 04
                +4
                Good morning to you too. Didn't know about this fact.
        2. Proxima
          Proxima 11 December 2020 14: 10
          +15
          And then the liberals sigh, why did the 17th year happen ?! After all, everything was so good in Mother Russia! good It's just that some people forget that no one has canceled the genetic memory yet. The children of those people who were sold like cattle, exchanged for dogs, flogged, sometimes to death, took to the barricades. The landlords had whole harems of serf concubines. In a word, all the delights of real slavery!
          1. Blackmokona
            Blackmokona 11 December 2020 14: 48
            +8
            So the liberals staged the first revolution in 17, it was then that they were overthrown by the communists in October
        3. Akuzenka
          Akuzenka 11 December 2020 14: 29
          -1
          Directly rushing nostalgia, Gauleiter Mr. Shpakovsky, for the times of serfdom. Soon we are waiting for an article from him about the goodness of the revival of serfdom in one form or another.
      2. kalibr
        11 December 2020 06: 14
        +17
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        How such a backward country managed to defeat the French army of Napoleon ... strange.

        Have you forgotten from which country you bought the gun for this? For grain ... And what losses did Kutuzov have in the army pursuing Napoleon ... I gave these figures, and in a photocopy from NIVA, knowing - otherwise they will not believe ... And this all speaks of efficiency, right? So what do you think? And the Crimean battle ... You read what the emperor's wife, the empress, wrote about it ... Everything is on the Web. Moreover, you are interested in history. The king of Epirus, Pyrrhus, too ... beat the Romans. Several militias marched into the Crimea and did not reach due to epidemics! Our Penza plant died out almost entirely ... But yes, they managed to make 400 copies of Colt revolvers for the year (!!!) for the naval crew.
        1. Lech from Android.
          Lech from Android. 11 December 2020 06: 28
          -10%
          With all the facts you mentioned, all the same, the foreigners were defeated and they could not achieve their goals ... amazing.
          A state with a more highly developed industry and social formation could not overcome a backward country ... what is the paradox?
          1. apro
            apro 11 December 2020 06: 37
            +8
            Quote: Lech from Android.
            A state with a more highly developed industry and social formation could not overcome a backward country ... what is the paradox?

            France was alone ... and there are several more feudal states, large numbers.
          2. kalibr
            11 December 2020 06: 42
            +11
            Quote: Lech from Android.
            A state with a more highly developed industry and social formation could not overcome a backward country ... what is the paradox?

            The cost of human life! The more development a country is, the higher it is. There, losses of 1 in 10 are terrifying, in our country they did not terrify anyone, if only the goal was achieved. Why women? But you still read the assessment of this war by Empress Alexandra Feodorovna ... And then there is Tolstoy's "Sevastopol Tales" - a very informative source, albeit fiction.
            1. Lech from Android.
              Lech from Android. 11 December 2020 06: 47
              +7
              But you still read the assessment of this war by Empress Alexandra Feodorovna ...

              You are right of course ... that's why such an expression went ...
              Russia cannot be understood with the mind ... to ruin human resources for the sake of momentary goals ... that's why we now have problems with childbirth in the country, because of the disregard for an individual person ... how to break all these accumulated barriers to our development in the future?
              1. kalibr
                11 December 2020 06: 53
                +4
                Quote: Lech from Android.
                how to break all these accumulated barriers to our development in the future?

                Thanks for this question! This is what the whole cycle is about. But the answer will not be immediate ...
            2. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 11 December 2020 11: 49
              +7
              There, losses of 1 in 10 are terrifying, in our country they did not terrify anyone, if only the goal was achieved.

              It seems to me that the balance of losses in the Crimean War was somewhat different ... hi There could not have been such losses, for there were fewer of ours. wink By the way, the Anglo-French on the Black Sea hapanuli, EMNIP, cholera even when approaching the theater of operations. Epidemics were the scourge of the armies of that time. In the US Army then there was a uniform mess, even in peacetime.
              Interesting documents for the Soviet-Finnish war. There, in an order for some army, it is clearly stated about the observance of sanitation ... and digging ditches for the very case! request
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 11 December 2020 17: 53
                +10
                There, in general, the alignment was not in favor of Russia - the steam fleet versus the sailing one (a pair of our steamer-frigates did not make the weather); threaded fittings ("Tuvenen") against smooth-bore guns; supply and support systems for the army - the first thing that the British did was to build a railway from Balaklava to their positions, and we pulled oxen carts. And only we were to blame for everything. Of course, they could not win the war in such a situation.
                But in the Baltic, they used super modern weapons (anchor mines) and the British had to lick their lips instead of drinking whiskey in Kronstadt.
            3. cat Rusich
              cat Rusich 11 December 2020 23: 44
              +2
              Quote: kalibr

              The cost of human life! The more development a country is, the higher it is. ...
              Vyacheslav Olegovich write an article about workhouses in England... the last of which closed in 1941.
              And Britain imported food from Australia, New Zealand - the sea route and transport from Britain were established, and food prices in the overseas colonies were lower than in the metropolis. The Russian soldier went into battle for the Fatherland. In Britain, the army was recruited mercenaries (for 1 shilling a day - minus food, clothing, etc.) for plunder and conquest of "unarmed natives". About "the price of the life of British soldiers" - remember the Battle of the Somme (419 654 killed Englishmen) and the rest of the WWII battles - when the soldiers were driven forward by machine-gun fire.
          3. Alexander Suvorov
            Alexander Suvorov 11 December 2020 06: 57
            +30
            Lech from Android. (Lech from Android)
            With all the facts you mentioned, all the same, the foreigners were defeated and they could not achieve their goals ... amazing.
            Maybe I'm confusing something, but in my opinion RI lost the Crimean War outright. By that time, RI was lagging behind in all respects, and most importantly in weapons. At the same time, the really winning Anglo-Franks achieved little, or rather, did not achieve what they wanted. But this entire military backwardness was solved again at the expense of the heroism of Russian soldiers and sailors. In general, as always in Russia, the bungling of the authorities was solved at the expense of the lives of the common people.

            P.S. And Napoleon was not so much defeated as hunger finished off.
            1. Lech from Android.
              Lech from Android. 11 December 2020 07: 04
              +1
              RI lost the Crimean War outright.

              I cannot agree, Alexander ... The British and French in the Crimean campaign could not achieve the complete defeat of the Russian army and after its end a battle of diplomats began, something like the Brest Peace, after which Russia still restored its positions on the Crimean peninsula ... although it took quite a long time. hi
              1. Alexander Suvorov
                Alexander Suvorov 11 December 2020 07: 13
                +25
                Lech from Android. (Lech from Android)
                I cannot agree, Alexander ... The British and French in the Crimean campaign could not achieve a complete defeat of the Russian army
                I mean, they couldn't? It seems that the army lost all ground battles.
                Or do you mean the entire army of the Republic of Ingushetia entirely? So no one could defeat Russia because of its territory, they would simply choke on such a piece.
                1. Lech from Android.
                  Lech from Android. 11 December 2020 07: 24
                  +3
                  It seems that the army lost all ground battles.

                  Well, the battle of Balaklava can hardly be called a loss ... all the same, the destruction of the offspring of the English lords there is already a good result.
                  Individual lost battles in general do not say that there was a complete victory for the united troops of Europe.
                  No matter how it was, Crimea eventually returned to Russia anyway.
                  1. kalibr
                    11 December 2020 07: 44
                    +4
                    Quote: Lech from Android.
                    all the same, the destruction of the offspring of the English lords there is already a good result.

                    Who told you that? Another internet bike ... There are lists, there are data on losses. Everything is there ... but I want to retrospectively kill the British longer.
                    1. Lech from Android.
                      Lech from Android. 11 December 2020 08: 09
                      +5
                      Another internet bike ... There are lists, there are data on losses. Everything is there ... but I want to retroactively kill the British longer.

                      Do not want... smile
                      Have read Metternich ...
                      http://militera.lib.ru/bio/hibbert_c02/text.html
                  2. kalibr
                    11 December 2020 07: 48
                    +7
                    Quote: Lech from Android.
                    Individual lost battles in general do not say that there was a complete victory for the united troops of Europe.

                    The result of the Eastern War: the country lost its prestige, its economic structure was destroyed, the way of life and manners underwent decay ... "Some lost battles." In 1991, there were no lost battles at all, but everything collapsed in the same way!
                    1. Lech from Android.
                      Lech from Android. 11 December 2020 08: 18
                      +3
                      In 1991, there were no lost battles at all, but everything collapsed in the same way!

                      Well, they compared a tram handle with a shovel.
                      Completely different conditions and people in the highest power.
                      armies of four (!) states, for almost a year (!) besieging one (!) city. Finally, they take it, and not all of it, but only the southern fortifications (in fact, several blocks!) And declare a "victory"! At the same time, Gen. Baklanov's Cossacks and Muravyov's grenadiers are taking the WHOLE city-Kars! At the same time, in the Far East, Admiral Price's squadron is defeated by the Cossacks and militias, in the North Sea the frigate Miranda is fighting off the Solovetsky Monastery (by monks!), And in the Baltic Sea, first Admiral Nepir with 31 ships, and then Admiral, break their teeth on Kronstadt Dondas with 101 warships! And this is, like, a victory ...

                      https://russian.rt.com/science/article/428049-oborona-sevastopol-krymskaya-voyna
                      Yes ... the tsarist power was dealt a severe blow as a result of the military defeat in the Crimea ... the society in Russia was going through the same thing that Armenia is now experiencing after the defeat in Karabakh.
                      And the autocracy with a creak was forced to make reforms both in society and in the army of Russia.
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 11 December 2020 08: 53
                        +8
                        on the North Sea frigate "Miranda" fights off the Solovetsky monastery (by monks!),
                        Somehow, the geography of the author of the above maxim is not very ...
                      2. Konstantin Shevchenko
                        Konstantin Shevchenko 11 December 2020 13: 08
                        +2
                        He writes everything correctly. Details in the documentary "Zero World" 4 series. A wonderful film.
                      3. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 11 December 2020 13: 23
                        +5
                        Details in the documentary "Zero World" 4 series. A wonderful film.

                        I agree completely, I looked! drinks
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 11 December 2020 14: 39
                        +4
                        Correctly writes that Solovki are in the North Sea?!? !?!
                      5. Konstantin Shevchenko
                        Konstantin Shevchenko 11 December 2020 15: 42
                        -2
                        White Sea is the northern sea of ​​RI. Black Sea - South Sea of ​​RI.
                      6. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 11 December 2020 16: 04
                        +3
                        All clear. I dare not bother you anymore.
                      7. Catfish
                        Catfish 11 December 2020 18: 22
                        +4
                        Namesake hi The White Sea is the White Sea and the North Sea is the North. These are TWO different seas.

                      8. Konstantin Shevchenko
                        Konstantin Shevchenko 11 December 2020 18: 40
                        +4
                        I know. But I tried to save Lech from Android. What you showed is "North Sea" the name of the puddle on the shores of partners, and Lesha from Android has the northern sea as a direction. wink He copied somewhere the text with an error. But the feat of the Solovetsky monastery, this does not change, as well as Petropavlovsk on the Pacific Ocean.
                      9. Catfish
                        Catfish 11 December 2020 19: 03
                        +7
                        It is clear, but precision is always needed here so that such misunderstandings do not arise. smile
                        And about Petropavlovsk - there is a very good book "Russian flag" by Borschagovsky, it describes well and in detail not only the defense of Petropavlovsk, but also the passage of the frigate "Aurora" there.
                      10. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 14 December 2020 10: 24
                        +3
                        And about Petropavlovsk - there is a very good book "Russian flag" by Borschagovsky, it describes well and in detail not only the defense of Petropavlovsk, but also the passage of the frigate "Aurora" there.

                        Although with the device of the then small arms, he seems to have lied ...
                      11. Catfish
                        Catfish 14 December 2020 10: 31
                        +3
                        And what about the weapon? I don’t remember something.
        2. Catfish
          Catfish 11 December 2020 18: 18
          +6
          Hello Anton. hi
          ... on the North Sea frigate "Miranda" fights off the Solovetsky Monastery

          According to the text, it turns out that the "villainous" Monastery attacked the unfortunate frigate and he could hardly fight back. laughing
          But in fact, there really was no war there, because purely raiding operations of Anglo-French ships cannot be considered serious battles.
          That way, the Sheer raid on Dixon can be declared for a serious operation that influenced the outcome of the entire war.
        3. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 11 December 2020 18: 34
          +4
          Uncle Kostya! According to the text, it turns out that the Solovetsky Monastery on about. JanMayen is located. I love these "patriots" even less than "folkkhitortk"
        4. Catfish
          Catfish 11 December 2020 19: 37
          +5
          "Now you need to be softer towards people, and look shorter at the question!" (C)
  2. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 11 December 2020 10: 48
    +7
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    armies of four (!) states, for almost a year (!) besieging one (!) city. Finally, they take it, and not all of it, but only the southern fortifications (in fact, several blocks!) And declare a "victory"! At the same time, Gen. Baklanov's Cossacks and Muravyov's grenadiers are taking the WHOLE city-Kars! At the same time, in the Far East, Admiral Price's squadron is defeated by the Cossacks and militias, in the North Sea the frigate Miranda is fighting off the Solovetsky Monastery (by monks!), And in the Baltic Sea, first Admiral Nepir with 31 ships, and then Admiral, break their teeth on Kronstadt Dondas with 101 warships! And this is, like, a victory ...

    Everything would be fine, but the jingoistic patriots do not like to recall the results of Russia's allegedly “non-defeat” in the Crimean War: to return the occupied Turkish possessions, the Black Sea Fleet should not be restored, naval fortresses on the Black Sea are prohibited.
    In the next war with Turkey, the Empire had to fight at sea with boats and armed steamers. And this was a consequence of the Crimean War.
  3. Fat
    Fat 11 December 2020 14: 21
    +2
    Quote: Alexey RA
    In the next war with Turkey, the Empire had to fight at sea with boats and armed steamers. And this was a consequence of the Crimean War.

    Treatise of Paris. 1856
    Article XI, on the neutralization of the Black Sea, prohibited all the Black Sea powers have military fleets on the Black Sea. Article XIII prohibits the Russian Empire and the Port from creating naval arsenals and fortresses on the coast. According to the convention attached to the peace treaty, the closure of the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles, in peacetime, for the warships of other powers was provided.
  4. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 11 December 2020 15: 02
    +8
    Quote: Thick
    Article XI, on the neutralization of the Black Sea, prohibited all Black Sea powers from having at the Black Sea military fleets. Article XIII prohibits the Russian Empire and the Port from creating naval arsenals and fortresses on the coast.

    Everything would be fine ... but this ban did not apply to the Sea of ​​Marmara and Mediterranean. I.e. the Ottoman Port retained both a fleet and bases near the Black Sea. And the Empire, which had access only to the Black Sea itself, had nothing left. So it turned out that in the next war, on the one hand, there were battleships and corvettes, and on the other - "active defense steamships" and boats hastily converted into mine carriers.
  5. Fat
    Fat 11 December 2020 15: 15
    +5
    Received. thanks hi
  6. Snail N9
    Snail N9 11 December 2020 23: 17
    0
    On youtube there is an interesting statement by Pavel Karelin about serfdom. He says there that the "liberation" of the peasants was in fact a cunning scam of Baron Stieglitz and his First Russian Bank - to pump out all the gold and silver from the peasants of Russia. Listen - interesting. Well, of course, I advise you to look at the "Chairman of the SNT" his "Serfdom: Then and Now" and "When Serfdom Will Be Abolished." Very informative. yes

  7. Fat
    Fat 11 December 2020 23: 37
    +1
    "I will be brief" (s)
    Thank you, Colleague Snitch, in order to get acquainted with what you wanted to say, you need 70 minutes ... Someday ... I'll see it, if I don't forget. Sorry.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 11 December 2020 08: 20
    +13
    The result of the Eastern War: the country lost its prestige, its economic structure was destroyed, the way of life and customs were decayed ...
    Moreover, the defeat in the Crimean campaign exerted such a psychological pressure on society that the Republic of Ingushetia entered the next war with a pathological fear of a "war against everyone."
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 11 December 2020 08: 43
    +8
    In 1991, there were no lost battles at all,

    Back in 1988, the law "On cooperation" was adopted (I'm not sure about the name), which allowed transferring non-cash money into cash. By this, the economy of the USSR was undermined more than by any battle.
  • Marine engineer
    Marine engineer 11 December 2020 11: 49
    +4
    “Outcome of the Eastern War” - RI from “gendarme of Europe” became “gendarme” on the outskirts of Europe and remained there (on the outskirts) until its end.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 11 December 2020 18: 07
    +3
    Vyacheslav, hello!
    In addition to the loss of prestige, Russia was left without a serious fleet in the Black Sea for a long time and this, of course, had a very negative impact on the entire further policy of the state and the ability to somehow influence the events taking place in this region.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 11 December 2020 15: 52
    -3
    Quote: Alexander Suvorov
    the army lost all land battles.

    Are you ashamed to be so blatantly ignorant?

    Russia won brilliant victories in the Caucasus (Kars).

    Nicholas would not have died, the war would have gone on, except for a part of Sevastopol, Kinburn (where the invaders died of hunger and cold), a couple of islets, they did not capture anything.

    And this with huge losses, both human and material.
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 11 December 2020 17: 44
      +25
      Olgovich (Andrey)
      Are you ashamed to be so blatantly ignorant?
      Well, apparently you are not ashamed ...
      Russia won brilliant victories in the Caucasus (Kars).
      And how did this affect the overall outcome of the war?

      You have an amazing ability to make an elephant out of a fly and see the positive where it was not from the word at all. I suspect that you can find a lot of positive things in the Russian-Japanese shame too?
      At the same time, you do not see the successes of the USSR point-blank. That's what it means fool fool fool monarchism of the brain ...

      Farewell, there is no time for me to heal the sick, but only to spoil you!
    2. gsev
      gsev 11 December 2020 23: 14
      -1
      Quote: Olgovich
      Nikolay would not have died,

      There is a hypothesis that Nicholas 1 committed suicide in order to facilitate peace negotiations. Russia needed a respite, which she skillfully took advantage of, returning everything that was lost in the war of 1878. During this time, for example, engineer Chernov organized the production of steel tools in Russia. At the same time, the creation of the Southern metallurgical base on capitalist principles began, which by the 20th century showed its advantage over the old Ural metallurgical base, which suffered from the consequences of serfdom.
  • kalibr
    11 December 2020 07: 51
    +2
    Quote: Alexander Suvorov
    In general, as always in Russia, the bungling of the authorities was solved at the expense of the lives of the common people.

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 11 December 2020 09: 39
      +10
      This is true all over the world, not only in Russia.
  • Aviator_
    Aviator_ 11 December 2020 08: 39
    +8
    And Napoleon was not so much defeated as hunger finished off.

    And the famine of the "Great Army" was formed by itself? This is the genius of Kutuzov, that he was able to expel Napoleon, as they would now say "hybrid war". There were claims to him that he fought "not according to the rules", but he did not react to this. And he believed that outside the Republic of Ingushetia the Russian army had nothing to do. But he died, and the then top leadership flooded to solve European problems with the blood of our soldiers.
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 11 December 2020 09: 18
      +10
      One of the observations, tested the hard way: playing by someone else's rules is obviously unprofitable.

      The ideal is to establish your own rules of the game.
      1. Marine engineer
        Marine engineer 11 December 2020 10: 02
        +6
        "The ideal is to establish your own rules of the game."
        +1000
    2. lucul
      lucul 11 December 2020 11: 03
      +4
      Did the "Great Army" starve by itself? This is the genius of Kutuzov, that he managed to expel Napoleon, as they would say now, "hybrid war"

      Remember simple words - beginners learn - tactics, experienced - strategy, and professionals - logistics))))
      As you can see, Napoleon did not go beyond tactics)))
    3. Blackmokona
      Blackmokona 11 December 2020 14: 51
      0
      It's just that in 5-10 years Napoleon would come again, having already taken into account all the past mistakes
      1. Aviator_
        Aviator_ 11 December 2020 14: 57
        +3
        It's just that in 5-10 years Napoleon would come again, having already taken into account all the past mistakes

        He had problems with England, Russia was generally on the sidelines here. So his second invasion is unlikely. Rather, he would not have released Fulton with his successful steamer design to America, but would have started an invasion of England. Fulton offered to make a series of his steamers for the invasion, but did not grow together. Later, Fulton became the founder of the American steam fleet.
        1. Blackmokona
          Blackmokona 11 December 2020 15: 53
          0
          His goal was world domination, like Hitler's. Having captured Britain, he would still have granted us
          1. Tavrik
            Tavrik 11 December 2020 21: 52
            +1
            Yes, he had no plans for world domination! There was only one plan - to make France a prosperous, prosperous, just country. But then England organizes a war, then Russia attacks, then Prussia declares war, then Austria. Or in coalitions, in various combinations. All have to be defeated.
            1. Blackmokona
              Blackmokona 11 December 2020 22: 57
              -3
              Yes, yes, everyone attacked poor Napoleon. Especially Russia in 1812.
            2. Tavrik
              Tavrik 11 December 2020 23: 22
              0
              Nenuache? Ask what comrade Suvorov did in Italy and the Alps? Russia, on its own initiative, fought with France when that was not at all up to Russia.
              The war of 1805 was organized by Alexander the first because of personal ambitions. War of 1806 is declared by Prussia to France. 1807 - Russia again, far beyond its borders, is trying to influence European politics. 1809 - again Austria wants revenge!
              Napoleon started two wars: in Spain in 1808 and in Russia in 1812.
              Curiously, in Wikipedia about 1807: "... Russian troops gradually entered Poland under the command of Field Marshal Mikhail Kamensky, since the appearance of French troops in Poland near the Russian border directly affected the interests of Russia ". Like," I ask you to treat with understanding ... "Well, with this approach, and in 1812 - the concentration of the Russian army at the borders of the empire affected the interests of France's ally - Poland. But then it begins:" And what about us? "
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 11 December 2020 16: 05
    -4
    Quote: Aviator_
    And believed that outside the Republic of Ingushetia the Russian army has nothing to do. .

    In 1944, they would have received a bullet for such a statement. Honored.

    But the leadership knew how to do the right thing - that in 1944, that in 1812.
    Quote: Aviator_
    But he died, and the then top leadership flooded to solve European problems with the blood of our soldiers.

    What nonsense: it was Kutuzov who on December 21, 1812, issued an order for the army to cross the border in order to finish off the beast.

    And SAM also took part in the hike
    1. Aviator_
      Aviator_ 11 December 2020 16: 19
      +4
      Kutuzov was not an emperor, and carried out an order, which he considered wrong.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 11 December 2020 16: 53
        -7
        Quote: Aviator_
        Kutuzov was not the emperor, and carried out the order, which he considered wrong

        December 21, 1812 (January 2, 1813) Kutuzov, in an order for the army, congratulated the troops on the expulsion of the enemy from the borders of Russia and Called upon them to "complete the defeat of the enemy in his own fields".

        This is a document. Not empty, made-up chatter.
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 11 December 2020 17: 01
          +4
          What could he possibly do? Alexander ordered, Mikhailo Illarionovich followed. And I was not delighted with this order. And what was the use of Russia in the occupation of Paris? Perhaps the gonorrhea was brought.
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 11 December 2020 18: 38
            -1
            Quote: Aviator_
            What could he possibly do? Alexander ordered, Mikhailo Illarionovich followed. And I was not delighted with this order.

            Resign. and instead he issued an order to the West!

            Bring his statements, come on. Or are you Kutuzov? belay
            Quote: Aviator_
            And what was the use of Russia in the occupation of Paris? Perhaps the gonorrhea was brought.

            Destroyed the reptile. as in 1945,
            established peace and created the first prototype of the UN
          2. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 11 December 2020 19: 20
            -1
            established peace

            Well, yes, the world - 1830, 1848 - extremely peaceful years.
        2. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 11 December 2020 21: 00
          +2
          In this case, the Soviet Union had to stop at the pre-war border?
        3. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 11 December 2020 21: 54
          -1
          In this case, the Soviet Union had to stop at the pre-war border?

          Don't write nonsense. The option to end hostilities in 1944 was only possible in the event of a successful assassination attempt on Hitler. But it didn't work out for them.
          The Soviet Union itself determined its foreign policy, and Alexander I was the forerunner of Gorbachev. The West wanted everything to please.
    2. Tavrik
      Tavrik 11 December 2020 21: 55
      -1
      This is the order of the commander, based on the decision of the emperor.
      Kutuzov did not want to go to Europe at all. Despite the difficult victory in 1812, the memories of 1805 and 1807 were very fresh.
      But Kutuzov is still a courtier ... Since the tsar-father wants that - to be like that. We go to Europe.
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 11 December 2020 11: 05
    +2
    Quote: Alexander Suvorov
    Maybe I'm confusing something, but in my opinion RI lost the Crimean War outright.

    Egm. The fighting took place in five theaters. On four of them, the "successes" of the allies are, frankly, not impressive. Where the word "defeat" is more suitable. And on the main thing - the Crimean achievements, frankly, are modest. In fact, it was not possible to occupy even any significant part of the Crimea itself, which is just a little smaller than Russia and the "huge size" of the latter cannot be justified here.
    1. kalibr
      11 December 2020 12: 18
      +2
      All this was written in The Times in very similar words. But ... war is not only cannon firing, but also what happens afterwards. We had a rout "later". And complete!
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 11 December 2020 12: 25
        +2
        Uh ... Russia lost its land? Paid the indemnity? Perhaps she was dismembered according to Palmerston's plans?
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 11 December 2020 18: 23
          +4
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          Uh ... Russia lost its land?

          Taki yes - the Empire lost the Turkish lands conquered during the war, which had to be returned back. As well as lands at the mouth of the Danube and Southern Bessarabia.
          Worst of all, the Empire lost its Black Sea Fleet, naval bases and fortresses on the Black Sea. The Turks simply took the fleet from the Black Sea - they had the Sea of ​​Marmara and Mediterranean that did not fall under the restrictions.
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 11 December 2020 18: 34
            -1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Taki yes - the Empire lost the Turkish lands conquered during the war, which had to be returned back.

            In other words, the empire did not acquire new lands. But to lose ...
            Quote: Alexey RA
            The Turks simply took the fleet from the Black Sea - they had the Sea of ​​Marmara and Mediterranean that did not fall under the restrictions.

            And we have the Baltic, the Far East and so on. I already wrote that the development of iron shipbuilding at two theaters in Russia simply would not have pulled it off. Therefore, regardless of the decisions of the Paris Congress, new ships in any case would be built in the Baltic, and the Black Sea Fleet on a leftover basis.
    2. Marine engineer
      Marine engineer 11 December 2020 12: 19
      +1
      "... the word is suitable -" defeat ".."
      It is quite simple to determine who defeated and defeated whom; one has to ask oneself a question: “Has the situation of Ingushetia become better after the end of the Eastern War? worse? remained unchanged? " and answer it honestly.
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 11 December 2020 12: 34
        +6
        So what's the matter, answer ...
        You see, whether you like it or not, Russia was just one of the great powers. The first then was Great Britain, the second was France, the third was us. If the first two powers are at war with the third, no other tactics other than defense is visible. And it cannot be said that the defense was completely unsuccessful.
        The Allies lost more soldiers than Russia. They did not solve any of the tasks set by them before the war. Moreover, they quarreled quite strongly among themselves.
        You see, this was not, of course, overcoming the adversary. But also a universal defeat.
        Has Russia's position gotten worse or better? In essence, what it was and remained. Just as France did not cease to be a great power after the enchanting pogrom of 1870-71, when there was annexation and indemnity and occupation, so nothing happened to Russia.
        1. kalibr
          11 December 2020 12: 41
          +2
          Yes, only finances improved only by 1870, only there was no fleet in 1877, they took Kars again - it's just a hobby for Russia - take Kars, then give it away, then take it again. And so, yes, nothing special happened. On the contrary, the construction of railways was accelerated and a new capsule rifle was adopted!
          1. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 11 December 2020 12: 59
            +4
            Quote: kalibr
            Yes, only finances got better only by 1870

            There is such a thing, but as for me, this is to a much greater extent the consequences of the economic policy of Kankrin and his followers. But war costs money anyway. There is nothing you can do about it.
            Quote: kalibr
            only there was no fleet in 1877

            And where did he go? Didn't you just mention the expedition during the American Civil War? There they also hunted for buffalo ...
            That is, the fleet was and the tasks facing the state were solved.
            As for the restrictions on the Black Sea ...
            Well, let's get straight. The sailing fleet, which rested at the bottom of the Sevastopol Bay, was in fact outdated and did not matter in the least. By the way, not only in Russia. For example, in France in 1857, all ships that did not have steam power plants were generally decommissioned and excluded from the fleet without any yak.
            After the war, the Russian naval department faced the task of modernizing shipbuilding in full growth. Moreover, in addition to the transition to the steam fleet, it was necessary to switch from wooden to iron shipbuilding. And whether you like it or not, it was not possible to simultaneously solve this problem both in the Baltic and the Black Sea, simply due to the finite resources.
            Therefore, even without the Paris restrictions, we would build a fleet mainly in the Baltic, simply because of the foreign policy tasks facing the country.
            Quote: kalibr
            A new capsule rifle has been adopted!

            With your permission - six different rifles for different cartridges. The unfortunate rifle drama is the brainchild of "the best minister of war of all times and peoples" :)))
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 11 December 2020 13: 38
              +5
              With your permission - six different rifles for different cartridges. The unfortunate rifle drama is the brainchild of "the best minister of war of all times and peoples" :)))

              Ivan, this is a little later. First, as V.O. Shpakovsky, a muzzle-loading rifle arr. 1856. She never got to the war. And 60-70s, before the adoption of the "Berdan" - yes, a drama. request
              They did not solve any of the tasks set by them before the war. Moreover, they quarreled quite strongly among themselves.

              Here we have to take into account ... hmm .. "personal relationships of monarchs." Napoleon III personally hated Nicholas I - for one single written line. When Nicholas died, the French ruler had no "personal reason". They brought the siege of Sevastopol to completion, and made peace. But Alexander II's relations with Napoleon were relatively normal. hi And here's another fact - Alexander decided to punish Franz Joseph. angry Daddy Alexander saved the young Austrian utyrka from the Hungarian revolution, and after a few years he took a position hostile to Russia in the Crimean War. Therefore, when the Franco-Italian-Austrian war broke out in 1859, Alexander had already ordered several corps to be brought to the border with Austria - a demonstration of strength and a pullback of the Austrian forces. The Austrians blew the war ... And you are not a creep to another! angry
              By the way, after the Crimean war, the former "allies" - the British and the French - began to lodge a fleet on both sides of the English Channel. Yes, nobody addressed the issue of their geopolitical confrontation! hi drinks
            2. Senior seaman
              Senior seaman 11 December 2020 13: 41
              +4
              I completely agree with you :)))
          2. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 11 December 2020 18: 33
            +2
            Quote: Senior Sailor
            Therefore, even without the Paris restrictions, we would build a fleet mainly in the Baltic, simply because of the foreign policy tasks facing the country.

            To solve the foreign policy tasks facing the Empire, the fleet will have to be built just on the Black Sea. For the Empire needs the Straits - either free or under its control. It's not even about some kind of "historical mission" or "Slavic brotherhood" - no, it's about the economy. The grain export of the Empire goes precisely through the Black Sea (and Azov) ports, and its difficulty or termination hurts the budget.
            Plus, the control of the Straits allows you to sharply reduce the cost of coastal defense - instead of the long Black Sea coast, it will be possible to concentrate on a narrow zone of the Straits.
          3. Senior seaman
            Senior seaman 11 December 2020 18: 47
            +1
            Quote: Alexey RA
            To solve the foreign policy tasks facing the Empire, the fleet will have to be built just on the Black Sea.

            Quote: Alexey RA
            The grain export of the Empire goes exactly through the Black Sea (and Azov) ports, and its difficulty or termination hurts the budget.

            So yes - no.
            That is, on the one hand, everything seems to be true, but these arguments had very little contact with reality. By the time of the Crimean War, our fleet had dominated the theater for more than a dozen years, but there was no free passage through the Bosphorus since the London Agreement of 1841, when the bast shoes did not ring about the KV.
            At the end of the 19th century, the Black Sea Fleet winged the Turkish fleet in terms of the number of pennants like a bull to a sheep, but the problem of the straits remained far from being solved as never before. The same story during the Balkan Wars.
            In general, these problems were not solved by the construction of the Black Sea Fleet. This does not mean that it is not needed at all, but at the indicated time, Russia's foreign policy tasks were much more effectively solved in other areas.
            Although, of course, being rich and healthy is much better than being poor and sick :)))
        2. kalibr
          11 December 2020 19: 40
          +1
          Quote: Senior Sailor
          With your permission - six different rifles for different cartridges.

          Do not hurry!
    3. Marine engineer
      Marine engineer 11 December 2020 13: 20
      +4
      "So what's the matter, answer ..."
      I answered myself for a long time - lost.
      The RI never had the same status in Europe before the start of the war. In 1878 in Berlin she was reminded of this (“like it or not”), they say, “we can repeat it” and that was enough to bring our “political men” into a faint state.
      1. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 11 December 2020 13: 35
        0
        Sorry, but this is a collection of general words.
        A little time will pass, and the same Bel France will be delighted to meet the alliance with St. Petersburg.
        As for the Berlin Congress, in its time the German Empire already exists, and at the time of the KV only indistinct Prussia. That is, conditions have changed, and dramatically. It always happens that way. New players appear, old alliances fall apart ...
        And yes, in the Crimean War, the Russian army, strange as it may sound, performed better than in 1877-78.
        Quote: Marine Engineer
        I offered to answer honestly.

        And what is the claim?
        1. Marine engineer
          Marine engineer 11 December 2020 14: 48
          +5
          "And what is the claim?"
          The question “The position of the Republic of Ingushetia after the CV: has it become better? remained unchanged? "
          I hoped to receive an answer without urapatriotic cliches, about the absence of indemnities, territorial losses, etc.
        2. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 11 December 2020 16: 58
          -1
          Quote: Marine Engineer
          I hoped to receive an answer without urapatriotic cliches, about the absence of indemnities, territorial losses, etc.

          So this is all pure truth. And about the lack of indemnities, and about territorial losses, that's the point.
          About the situation with the fleet, which they also like to exaggerate, I answered Vyacheslav Olegovich in detail a little higher. I see no reason to repeat myself.
          About a certain "lost status" about which you were talking ... you know, not seriously. In the 60s-70s of the nineteenth century, there were several political crises in one way or another connected with Russia, and all attempts at intervention by the great powers ended in the same way - they were politely but convincingly sent. So it was during the uprising in Poland, the defeat of Shamil, the Central Asian campaigns, and the British only wiped themselves off from our sea expeditions to America.
          So how do you answer the question?
          Has the situation of RI improved after the end of the Eastern War? worse? remained unchanged? " and answer it honestly.

          So how has the situation of the Republic of Ingushetia radically deteriorated? Can you formulate anything clearly?
          Or maybe it hasn't changed much?
        3. Marine engineer
          Marine engineer 11 December 2020 23: 24
          0
          "So this is all pure truth."

          And here are the facts, according to the Paris Treaty of 1856. Russia
          agreed: to demilitarize the Aland Islands, to freedom of navigation on the Danube, refused the protectorate over Wallachia, the Moldavian principality and Serbia, ceded to the Moldavian principality its possessions in the Danube estuaries and part of southern Bessarabia.
          With the European system, the basis of which were the Vienna Treatises, by the way, abundantly soaked in Russian blood, it was done away. No more "first violins in the European Orchestra" of Russia "shone" - the conductors will not allow. And if all sorts of "Baden-Badens" out there, by inertia, counted RI among the great powers, then after the Berlin Congress of 1878 it came to them that Russia is no longer what it was before. Her destiny from now until WWI is the Central Asian campaigns, boxing uprisings. If she got involved in anything with a serious enemy, then it ended with either "Tsushima" military, or "Tsushima" diplomatic (Bosnian crisis).
          The "Crimean syndrome" undermined our "Politicum", for example, despite the favorable political situation (the defeat of France), the status of the Aland Islands was never canceled. Neither Alexander the liberator, nor Alexander the peacemaker dared to do this. The "owners of RI" did not dare to finish off the Paris Treaty, and therefore agreed that they were not "masters" on this territory.
          What have you read about the Black Sea Fleet? I will not comment, I will just say that the ban on having a fleet on the Black Sea is automatically a ban on military shipbuilding, which in turn led to the loss of competencies, the restoration of which required significant resources, and most importantly time.
        4. Senior seaman
          Senior seaman 11 December 2020 23: 41
          -1
          The Berlin Congress was suddenly 20 years after the Paris one. Doesn't it look like anything? I am generally silent about the Bosnian crisis.
          We, too, now have everything that is bad from the "dashing 90", but not from the current overpowering :)))
          Aland Islands? Yes, there have never been significant fortifications. So is the small fort of Bormasund. And since they didn't even strengthen it in WWI, maybe there was no point in this anymore?
          Quote: Marine Engineer
          What have you read about the Black Sea Fleet? I will not comment

          And you will do the right thing :))
          In fact, getting around these prohibitions was not easy, but very simple. Sobsno, they were bypassed, refusing to destroy the fortifications and shipyards of Nikolaev on the pretext that he was not at sea, but on the river. But there was no money for serious construction, so they stubbornly pretended that they were fulfilling the contract. And when the money appeared, they quickly built it and the competencies were somehow found ...
  • Marine engineer
    Marine engineer 11 December 2020 13: 27
    +1
    “Has Russia's situation gotten worse or better? In essence, the way it was and remains "

    I offered to answer honestly.
    1. kalibr
      11 December 2020 19: 43
      +1
      He did not read how Empress Maria Feodorovna described this war ... She probably knew better both the time and the situation.
  • hjvtp1966
    hjvtp1966 20 December 2020 09: 59
    0
    The Sevastopol operation is not a separate war, but part of a large war that began with the war with Turkey and its vassals in the Caucasus. Turkey's ally conducted a series of operations against Russia in various theaters, but achieved success only in Sevastopol. In short ...
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 11 December 2020 09: 02
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    Have you forgotten from which country you bought the gun for this?

    Have you forgotten that the Tula plant has been producing since 1808 one hundred thousand trunks per year, which were identical to the French.

    Artillery - completely domestic production and in abundance - even an additional 52 artillery parks were arranged in three lines to supply troops

    So what is purchased is minuscule in total domestic weapons
    Quote: kalibr
    And what losses did Kutuzov have in the army pursuing Napoleon ..

    And what are the wildest losses in Napoleon's army? Where was his "great" army left to rot in its overwhelming majority?
    Quote: kalibr
    in Crimea and did not reach due to epidemics!

    And how many died from the same epidemics of the invaders in the Crimean War?

    And yes - the losses of the parties in the Crimean War 1: 1.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. kalibr
      11 December 2020 10: 58
      0
      [quote = Olgovich] [quote = kalibr] Have you forgotten from which country you bought the gun for this? [/ quote]
      Have you forgotten that the Tula plant has been producing since 1808 one hundred thousand
      Why then bought another 100 thousand from the British? In stock? Well, yes, he doesn't rub his pocket ...
    3. kalibr
      11 December 2020 11: 00
      +1
      Quote: Olgovich
      And what are the wildest losses in Napoleon's army?

      Don't give a damn about them. It is important that we lost 80% of the army in pursuit of Napoleon.
      1. Olgovich
        Olgovich 11 December 2020 12: 28
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        Quote: Olgovich
        And what are the wildest losses in Napoleon's army?

        Don't give a damn about them. It is important that we lost 80% of the army in pursuit of Napoleon.

        No, don't cry: the monstrous losses of the former confirm some inevitability of large losses of the latter: the same conditions, the same weather, the same diseases, etc.

        At the same time, the Russian army also suffered greatly from the cold, but better equipped, she also could afford to stay longer in settlements, had the ability to evacuate the wounded and frostbitten. ... So our losses were less and much.

        The French died en masse and after the Berezina, ours drove them, not allowing them to warm up or stop, attacking with cavalry and cannons on sledges
        From the memoirs of Denis Davydov about the road to Vilna:

        Many wounded enemies were lying in the snow or, hiding in carts, expecting death from the effects of cold and hunger ... My sleigh hit against the heads, hands and feet, frozen or nearly freezing; this continued throughout the movement ours from Ponari to Vilna.

        And also, in the same place, near Vilna:
        the French ate their comrades' dead. Among other things, they said that they often met the French in some shed, who had climbed there from the cold, sitting near the fire on the bodies of their dead comrades, from whom they cut out the best parts in order to satisfy their hunger.

        We didn't have that.

        And therefore, there are fewer losses and the army is in order: practically, without a break, already in December Kutuzov gave the order to cross the border and, therefore, beat the enemy in his lair
        1. kalibr
          11 December 2020 12: 37
          0
          Quote: Olgovich
          So our losses were less and much.

          In an article about losses in the Battle of Borodino, there were figures from the Niva magazine for 1912. Nobody has ever refuted them ...
          1. Olgovich
            Olgovich 11 December 2020 12: 49
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            In an article about losses in the Battle of Borodino, there were figures from the Niva magazine for 1912. Nobody has ever refuted them ...



            1. We talked about the time long after Borodino.

            2. As for Borodino, the figures are different.
      2. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 11 December 2020 14: 05
        +2
        But for those times, sanitary losses exceeding combat ones, unfortunately, were the norm.
  • lucul
    lucul 11 December 2020 10: 56
    +2
    And what losses did Kutuzov have in the army pursuing Napoleon ... I gave these figures, and in a photocopy from NIVA, knowing that they would not believe otherwise.

    Indeed, what fools the Turks are ... it was necessary to immediately attack Russia in 1813))) After all, in Russia, according to our NIVA (it's like Echo of Moscow now), there is no army left at all))) The Turks would have reached Moscow itself)) ))
  • Senior seaman
    Senior seaman 11 December 2020 13: 52
    0
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, another such moment.
    During the Napoleonic Wars and the "suffering of 1812" we are at war with France, supported by a certain amount of European small fry and the enemy is no less than Moscow. Threatens, so to speak, the basics. Great Britain, by the way, is on our side and organizes a second front in Spain, supplies weapons (to us), takes on the naval component of the conflict, and so on.
    During the Crimean campaign, our enemy is both France and Great Britain, and we couldn't do without small fry like Sardinia. And this insidious enemy threatens ... but with what to compare. If since 1812 then it does not threaten anything at all ... request
  • zenion
    zenion 11 December 2020 21: 35
    0
    Lech from Android. Isn't it strange to you that Napoleon did not turn to the peasantry? Isn't it strange to you that Napoleon did not go to Petropolis? Isn't it strange to you that you don't know how the war for Crimea ended. The thing is that Napoleon was already the emperor during the campaign against Russia. If during the campaign he had remained in the rank of general, he would have done with Russia the same thing that he did with Italy and neighboring countries. He simply declared freedom and equality to all people there. But when he joined the ranks of kings and kings, he could no longer do this.
  • gsev
    gsev 11 December 2020 23: 07
    0
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    How such a backward country managed to defeat the French army of Napoleon ... strange.

    Serfdom was created to contain military forces to combat an external threat. And this system in Russia justified itself for a long time. Since the 17th century, the Russians drove the nomads away from their lands, the captured lands were settled by serfs, who provided funds for the maintenance of the army. With the defeat of the Crimean Khanate and the pacification of the Bashkirs, it became possible to reduce the army. It was then that the nobility was freed from compulsory service, but at the same time the landowners-idlers began to live for their own pleasure, which is colorfully described in the classic works "Dubrovsky" and "Minor." During the Crimean War, Russia fought against Turkey, Great Britain, France and Italy in readiness to see Austria and Prussia as adversaries, a war that Russia could not have endured during the time of Peter I, Alexander I, or Stalin.
  • Civil
    Civil 11 December 2020 08: 57
    +5
    1. Noblemen considered themselves Russian when it was convenient for them. The mob had no nationality, since the price of a serf was lower than a cow, for example.
    2. The mob was specially brought out weak-willed and obedient, but aggressive enough to squeeze the rebels out of the community. Then they bred the breed of "aggressively obedient" majority. As a service breed in dogs, for example.
    3.From 1649 (the final consolidation of the slaves) to 1861 (free slaves) is quite a sufficient period for the withdrawal of a good service breed.
    4. Let me remind you that before 1917 the nobility was 0,2% of the country's population. And the country belonged to them.
    1. lucul
      lucul 11 December 2020 11: 07
      -2
      1649 (final consolidation of slaves) to 1861 (free slaves)

      Indeed - the Russian peasant worked for the master 5 days a week, and the English peasant worked for his lord all 7 days a week.
      But that means in Russia this is slavery, and in England it means freedom))))
      1. Civil
        Civil 11 December 2020 11: 45
        +3
        Quote: lucul
        1649 (final consolidation of slaves) to 1861 (free slaves)

        Indeed - the Russian peasant worked for the master 5 days a week, and the English peasant worked for his lord all 7 days a week.
        But that means in Russia this is slavery, and in England it means freedom))))

        I don't know what happened in your England, but the serf is the property of the landowner and he worked when the clerk told him. And he sold, and lost at cards, and started harems of peasant girls. Learn materiel about Russia. There is no need to answer, this is not your "Vasily" answer.
        1. lucul
          lucul 11 December 2020 13: 24
          -6
          And he sold, and lost at cards, and started harems of peasant girls. Learn materiel about Russia

          And that, in Russia, the chosen ones were engaged in the slave trade since the collapse of the Kaganate, they had a very profitable gesheft, they traded captive Russians in all the slave markets of the world.
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 11 December 2020 12: 42
        +5
        And this is an eternal question - where is more freedom: in the West or in the East.
        In my opinion, one of the most terrible inventions of mankind is the conveyor belt.
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 11 December 2020 18: 45
          +3
          Quote: Korsar4
          In my opinion, one of the most terrible inventions of mankind is the conveyor belt.

          Hi Sergey! I confirm! Before the army I worked at AZLK, in UKER, and they drove us to the main conveyor for a month. Days were counted, hours and minutes! When this hard labor will end !!!! crying
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 11 December 2020 18: 51
            +2
            I had a part-time job - both at school and at the university. At a garment factory.
  • qQQQ
    qQQQ 12 December 2020 09: 48
    0
    Quote: apro
    Is it an extremely backward country? Strange ...

    Unfortunately, this is exactly how it is, a backward agrarian country with a very weak industry, which practically all worked for military needs.
  • nikvic46
    nikvic46 11 December 2020 06: 02
    +6
    But some people praise this slavery inside our country. One moment is not clear. By 1961, it became unprofitable for many landowners to have serfs. Could it be taxes? I should clarify.
    1. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 11 December 2020 06: 07
      +6
      By 1961 year

      You probably meant 1861 ... hi
      1. nikvic46
        nikvic46 11 December 2020 06: 12
        +4
        Of course I'm sorry. It happens to me.
    2. apro
      apro 11 December 2020 06: 07
      +3
      Quote: nikvic46
      By 1961, it became unprofitable for many landowners to have serfs. Could it be taxes?

      The nobles are not a taxable estate .... they did not pay taxes.
      1. Alex013
        Alex013 11 December 2020 19: 28
        0
        They paid a "poll tax". To which Chichikov referred when buying "dead souls".
        1. apro
          apro 11 December 2020 19: 30
          0
          Quote: Alex013
          They paid a "poll tax".

          Controlled the payments of the serfs.
    3. kalibr
      11 December 2020 06: 08
      +6
      Quote: nikvic46
      By 1961, it became unprofitable for many landowners to have serfs. Could it be taxes?

      There were only gambling debts ... The estates were mortgaged ... Some% of what was worth. And then there is the ineffective labor of the peasants. It's that simple! Reread The Young Peasant Woman. There is about it ...
      1. Stirbjorn
        Stirbjorn 11 December 2020 08: 17
        +7
        Quote: kalibr
        There were only gambling debts ... The estates were mortgaged ... Some% of what was worth. And then there is the ineffective labor of the peasants.

        A documentary of that era in support of your words hi

        S.A.Knyazkov "How it developed and how serfdom fell in Russia"
        1. kalibr
          11 December 2020 10: 47
          +3
          Thanks! A very good addition!
      2. Senior seaman
        Senior seaman 11 December 2020 14: 15
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        The estates are laid ...

        By the way, yes. In principle, the government could abolish the KP for most of its subjects simply by nationalizing the pledged estates.
    4. lucul
      lucul 11 December 2020 11: 10
      +1
      By 1961, it became unprofitable for many landowners to have serfs. Could it be taxes? I should clarify.

      As soon as the nobility received their possessions as OWNERSHIP, that is, now there was no need to work out for them by military service to the tsar - so immediately the degradation and degeneration of the nobility in Russia began.
  • Errr
    Errr 11 December 2020 06: 21
    +15
    From the article:
    Rare color photographs of life in the Russian Empire. It turns out that there were some!
    If for you, Vyacheslav, 1902 digitized photos of the pioneer of Russian color photography Sergei Mikhailovich Prokudin-Gorsky are rare, then I am truly sorry. The internet is full of them.
    Again from the article:
    Russian peasants? Yes, Russian peasants ...
    Russians, they are Russians. But only, to be more precise, this photo shows the Arkhangelsk Pomors in festive uniforms, and in those parts of the country they have never known serfs. smile
    1. kalibr
      11 December 2020 06: 36
      0
      Quote: Herrr
      If for you, Vyacheslav, 1902 digitized photos of the pioneer of Russian color photography Sergei Mikhailovich Prokudin-Gorsky are rare, then I am sincerely sorry

      Don't feel sorry for me, it was even in the comments to one of my articles. Just a purely journalistic turn of speech. Or should I have written right there about Prokudin? They don’t do that ... Also with the Pomors. And then there were state peasants, there were still different ... And all this to concretize and provide photos? This is not a dissertation, but a popular article.
      1. Errr
        Errr 11 December 2020 06: 45
        +6
        I am here about the fact that there are actually a lot of color photographs depicting life in the Russian Empire. They are not uncommon at all. smile
        1. kalibr
          11 December 2020 06: 47
          +1
          I know it's complete. But we are still adults, not only pictures in the text should be.
          1. Errr
            Errr 11 December 2020 06: 50
            +7
            Well yes. Also, explanations for the pictures should be suitable. smile
            1. kalibr
              11 December 2020 06: 51
              +1
              Quote: Herrr
              Well yes. Also, the explanations for the pictures should be appropriate.

              It is truth too. Do you see how we have been communicating for a long time because of the "suitable" comment?
              1. Errr
                Errr 11 December 2020 06: 52
                +5
                And that's really good! laughing drinks
                1. depressant
                  depressant 11 December 2020 11: 03
                  +6
                  Not being able to squeeze into a conversation of higher rank, I answer Lyokha from the android at the end of the thread.
                  That's right, a note on ...
                  In the mid-80s, Georgian radio broadcast Khrushchev's famous speech at that very congress. The new secretary general spoke about the victims of Stalinism, interrupting the speech with long sobs and occasionally sobs. And when the next turn of speech was finishing, there was a storm, thunderous applause, such as if several thousand people were present in the hall. So much so that my transistor receiver began to hum metallicly ... And this roar of applause lasted several minutes each time. And I listened patiently.

                  It was only in the 2000s that it dawned on me what kind of broadcast this was - the meeting was closed! There was no question of any thousands of people supposedly present in the hall! And after listening to the speech, for many years I was convinced of the opposite. And now I think, perhaps, there was a modest applause of those who were carried past the well-deserved resignations, or long years of no less well-deserved imprisonment, or even execution. Stormy, endless applause with the help of technical means was inserted into Khrushchev's speech in order to incite the hatred of the Georgian nationalists against the central leadership of the country, and in general against the Russians - they say, look how they trampled on our idol Stalin, how they approved of the trampling! Maybe after the sobbing, Khrushchev's sobs were prolonged. And the fact that Stalin was then an idol for the Georgians, I personally have no doubts. In the 80s, wounded national pride forced every Georgian car owner to cling a portrait of Stalin to the glass and even to his own chest.

                  And now I am pondering which way the falsification of history will continue. After all, it is being falsified right now. And in 10 years? Taking into account the latest technical means? The history of the 19th century was probably more honest.
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 11 December 2020 12: 45
                    +4
                    No. The century is not the main thing. Only the human mind.
                    And remember the prayer: "Gather my scattered mind."
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 11 December 2020 12: 58
      +7
      I really liked how NE Vrangel, the father of the notorious "black baron", spoke about serfdom.
      The serfdom corrupted Russian society - both the peasant and the landowner - by teaching them to bow only to brute force, to despise law and legality. This regime was based on fear and brutal violence. Slaps and slaps were commonplace both on the streets and in houses ... They beat them with rods in stables, in educational institutions, in barracks - everywhere. They beat them with whips and whips in the shopping areas, “across the green street,” that is, With "gauntlets", with sticks "they drove" on the parade grounds and arenas. And the blows were given up to twelve thousand. Under Nikolai Pavlovich, the stick became the main instrument of Russian culture.
      I was born and moved in the circle of the noble, in the circle of the arbiters of the fate of the people, I knew the serfs well. I was nursed by the breast of a serf mother, grew up in the arms of a serf nanny who replaced my deceased mother, from childhood I was surrounded by serf households, and I know the serf life of the peasants. I saw joys and tears and oppressors and oppressed. And on everyone, perhaps imperceptibly for themselves, the serfdom imposed its stamp, perverted their soul. There were many satisfied among them, not a single one, not crippled. The serfdom poisoned my childhood too; it lay on my soul with a cast-iron stove. And even now, more than half a century later, I cannot remember him without horror, I cannot help cursing him and not feeling hatred for him.

      As far as I remember, he, having learned about the death of his nephews Georgy and Mikhail Mikhailovich at the hands of peasants in 1918, said something like: "They are taking revenge on us for serfdom."
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 11 December 2020 13: 00
        +3
        Sorry, I accidentally posted this comment as an answer to yours, in theory it should have been separate.
      2. kalibr
        11 December 2020 15: 00
        +1
        Wonderfully written and added to the place.
    3. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 11 December 2020 21: 30
      +1
      Vyacheslav Olegovich was well led. It will benefit him
      1. Errr
        Errr 11 December 2020 22: 00
        0
        Both the led waltzed as best they could. smile
  • Far B
    Far B 11 December 2020 06: 25
    +2
    in the Czech Republic it was canceled in 1781, .. in the Austrian Empire - in 1858, but in Hungary only in 1853
    Here in this place my brains boiled a little. Czechia and Hungary at that time were part of the Austrian Empire, as far as sclerosis does not change. But something is definitely cheating on me, because the logic of what is written still eludes me. What am I doing wrong?
    1. kalibr
      11 December 2020 06: 34
      +4
      Quote: Dalny V
      Czech Republic and Hungary at that time were part of the Austrian Empire

      Yes, they did, but they had a certain amount of independence. You are not surprised that Finland had a constitution, but Russia did not?
      1. Far B
        Far B 11 December 2020 06: 47
        +5
        Honestly, I did not ask the question, but for some reason I thought that before the announcement of a two-pronged monarchy, Austria was somewhat more ... let's say - one. And that's it.
        1. kalibr
          11 December 2020 06: 57
          +4
          Oh, Michael, you can write and write about this. And why, by the way, did this monarchy collapse so easily later? And everything was ready. They had their own laws, their parliaments, a tax system (!), And their own economy. Common were the anthem, coat of arms, flag and emperor!
          1. Far B
            Far B 11 December 2020 07: 05
            +3
            Just as Poland and Finland easily fell off from Russia, in fact. Apparently, this is the fate of all empires (sniffing thoughtfully)
            1. kalibr
              11 December 2020 07: 10
              +1
              Quote: Dalny V
              Just as Poland and Finland easily fell off from Russia, in fact. Apparently, this is the fate of all empires (thoughtfully puffs on the pipe)

              Sure! Everything was based on traditions and bayonets. Remember 1948 and India? They refused to buy English goods. And ... everything! The end came to British rule. India and Pakistan gained independence. What kind of pipe do you have? In due time ... oh ... paid tribute. There was even (and has survived!) From a corncob, a MacArthur pipe! Eh, youth ...
              1. Far B
                Far B 11 December 2020 08: 04
                +2
                I have an ordinary consumer goods))) Considering how much I smoke, I would have gone broke for a long time on something ponto)))
  • bober1982
    bober1982 11 December 2020 06: 25
    +2
    The novel by Leo Tolstoy "Sunday" mentioned by the author of the article not only very accurately conveys all the depraved atmosphere of those years, but also points to the corrupt and depraved nature of Tolstoy himself, who, frankly speaking, was ordinary bastard.
    And, in such an unhealthy environment, under the leadership of the same sick "trustees for the welfare of the people," under all this Tolstoyan and not Tolstoy's writings, serfdom began to be abolished in Russia.
    1. kalibr
      11 December 2020 06: 32
      +2
      Quote: bober1982
      And, in such an unhealthy environment, under the leadership of the same sick "trustees for the welfare of the people," under all this Tolstoyan and not Tolstoy's writings, serfdom began to be abolished in Russia.

      You said that very well ... The moral and psychological climate was still the same.
      1. bober1982
        bober1982 11 December 2020 07: 04
        0
        When Nikolai I was dying, everyone could not wait until he would die in order to start "reforms" - peasant, military, judicial, etc. They waited and began to reform, clumsily and awkwardly.
        When the Russian Tsar Alexander III died, a real avalanche of liberal reforms began, which finally ruined the state.
        Further, everything repeated with the USSR, there was a verbal chatter that it was impossible to continue living in the conditions of a command-administrative system and obkom buffets, that a people's parliament and honest cinema were needed, etc., and so on.
        What is the conclusion - we do not have England or Switzerland, in short, we have a cold and large territory, that is, we can go our own way, without looking back at anyone.
        1. kalibr
          11 December 2020 07: 08
          0
          Quote: bober1982
          When the Russian Tsar Alexander III died, a real avalanche of liberal reforms began, which finally ruined the state.

          It was the Third who pressed them ...
          1. bober1982
            bober1982 11 December 2020 07: 10
            0
            I pointed out that after the death of Alexander Alexandrovich
        2. Cartalon
          Cartalon 11 December 2020 07: 55
          +3
          And what is your path, who was the first to get up and take the stick, that is the corporal?
    2. Olgovich
      Olgovich 11 December 2020 10: 58
      -1
      Quote: bober1982
      all the depraved atmosphere of those years
      under the guidance of the same sick "trustees


      name countries with a NON-depraved environment and "healthy" caregivers about ....the good of the people.

      Not forgetting to "dig" the very thing that EVERYONE had.
      Quote: bober1982
      Leo Tolstoy "Sunday", not only very accurately conveys all the depraved atmosphere of those years, but also indicates venal and the depraved essence of Tolstoy himself

      and to whom is he ... "sold out"? belay For what? What didn't he have?

      Tolstoy is a very controversial, but great writer
      1. bober1982
        bober1982 11 December 2020 12: 18
        0
        Quote: Olgovich
        and to whom is he ... "sold out"?

        Diaval, and sold out.
        1. depressant
          depressant 11 December 2020 13: 35
          +4
          Colleagues, do not forget that the thin foam of culture on the crest of a gigantic, muddy shaft of civilization is born by people who are completely soiled with vices. After all, this is the only way to understand what vice is and to condemn it competently. This is when given a conscience that cannot be drowned out, the ability to analyze and talent.
          For example, the story of Mikhail Bulgakov "Morphine". The work of unprecedented strength, grief and degree of despair is a testament to the despair of a dying era.
          And Tolstoy ... Yes, he was the way his historical time blinded him. It dazzled, and he revealed its shades from the inside and showed the source that gave strength to modeling. It means it is not subject to jurisdiction. He is a witness and researcher. I am grateful.
          1. bober1982
            bober1982 11 December 2020 13: 43
            0
            Quote: depressant
            And Tolstoy.

            Leo Tolstoy was different, the Caucasian war stories and "War and Peace" - one Tolstoy, and "Kreutzer Sonata", "Sunday", "Anna Karenina" - this is a completely different Tolstoy.
            Quote: depressant
            Means not subject to jurisdiction

            Genius cannot be considered a guarantee of non-jurisdiction.
            1. depressant
              depressant 11 December 2020 15: 12
              +2
              Then we get a contradiction.
              According to Wrangel's testimony, the whole society was corrupted, therefore, demoralized and, to one degree or another, smeared with vice. And then there was a man who, having the talent of a writer, stepped forward and said: "We are all to blame! I am in the first place. I repent. The existing order of things is bad, it should not be so." So why judge him? For being a typical representative of his time? But history has already condemned this era. Everything, without a trace. Including the writer Leo Tolstoy as its representative on a par with hundreds of millions of other people. Has already condemned.
              Or it is necessary to condemn the writer additionally for having found the courage to admit guilt and repent in the form of a work of fiction - in contrast to all hundreds of millions of others. In other words, he set himself up publicly. Wrangel, no one has condemned for what you propose to try Tolstoy again. But Wrangel also made an admission of his depravity of the era, but, unlike Tolstoy, it is private.
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon 11 December 2020 06: 27
    +2
    As for the reasons for enslavement, at least in Russia, it is extremely doubtful.
    Serfdom was introduced in order to protect the landlord from competition, patrimonies and monasteries, which enticed the peasants. And the state could not close its eyes to such a situation, since the landowners were the main military force, there could not be a special export of grain from Russia at that moment, they had not yet reached the black soil.
    1. kalibr
      11 December 2020 06: 49
      +4
      Quote: Cartalon
      Serfdom was introduced in order to protect the landlord from competition, patrimonies and monasteries, which enticed the peasants.

      As if she was not ill - everything died! The main thing is that it was, and became obsolete over time!
    2. Jünger
      Jünger 11 December 2020 09: 06
      +2
      Quote: Cartalon
      Serfdom was introduced to protect the landlord from competition

      Serfdom was introduced because of the constant wars in which the state participated. During the time of Ivan the Terrible, the noble militia was gathered almost every year. Even cripples without an arm or a leg were taken to the war - there is information about this in the documents.
      It was in order to provide the war with resources and enslavement was introduced. So that he can consistently be ready for war, and not plow and sow.
      And who knows who it was harder - the hacked veteran or the hay girl Marfushka, with whom the Hero of Russia tried to relieve the tension that arose during the many years of hostilities.
      1. Bolt cutter
        Bolt cutter 11 December 2020 12: 53
        +1
        the hacked veteran or hay girl Marfushka, with whom the Hero of Russia tried to relieve tension
        It is easy to see that in this hypothetical situation you imagine yourself to be the "Hero" who has been given Marfushkin's furry award. But in real life, with a probability of 99.5%, you would just be Marfushka's father or husband, and plow the field while someone, who speaks poorly in Russian, relieves her stress. No nasty feeling?
        1. Jünger
          Jünger 11 December 2020 13: 24
          +2
          The feeling is there.
          First of all, why does he speak Russian poorly? I clearly wrote that at the end of the 18th century serfdom was an anachronism. And before that, most of the landowners were quite Russian to themselves and spoke quite well.
          And secondly, serfdom with all its disadvantages is a natural stage in the development of society.
          And my feelings have nothing to do with it. Any noble girl could be spoiled by a noble boyar, and his daughter by a tsar-sovereign. This is a problem of a hierarchical society, and human relationships, not just serfdom.
          Criticizing and pulling dirt out is easy. You would suggest something sensible.
          1. Bolt cutter
            Bolt cutter 11 December 2020 13: 30
            0
            why is he speaking Russian badly
            Noble nobles did not use muzhik language especially. French is yes.
            And my feelings have nothing to do with it.
            You raised the issue of the Hero's hard lot, justifying it. So it should, they say.
            And then on the steamers to Marseille and Constantinople, the heroes (well, who was lucky) thought, what, in fact, went wrong sad
            1. kalibr
              11 December 2020 15: 03
              +3
              Quote: Bolt Cutter
              Noble nobles did not use muzhik language especially. French is yes.

              Incorrect judgment. In the bulk they spoke, and they knew a couple of phrases in French. The officers in 1905 could not read the instructions for fabric dye in French.
            2. Cartalon
              Cartalon 11 December 2020 16: 55
              +2
              When the introduction of serfdom, the nobleman rather knew the Tatar, but did not know about the French, he had 2-3 mares, 1-2 slaves, and a house with a wife
  • Jünger
    Jünger 11 December 2020 08: 23
    +1
    Serfdom is an inevitable necessity. It was introduced in order to meet the military needs of the state, which relied on the noble army.
    In order to equip a nobleman and military slaves for the war, it was necessary that someone worked for them. We needed stability and sustainability of security. For this, enslavement was introduced.
    So everything is logical and inevitable. To find fault with it is stupid. But it is clear that in the 18th century serfdom became a kind of archaism. Well, delayed with the cancellation - it happens. So everywhere and for everyone.
  • Deniska999
    Deniska999 11 December 2020 08: 28
    +2
    Below is a typical passage from Nicholas I, which he said at one of the meetings with the first minister of state property Pavel Kiselyov - a catchy illustration of typical tsarist thinking in Russia (in principle, you can substitute the name of any Russian emperor here - the essence will not change):

    “It's time for me to take care of our peasants. Every now and then I receive news that in this or that province they shoot at landowners, in Kremenchug they whipped the venerable Paskevich, because, as a military man, he strictly demanded order; flogged the unfortunate Bazilevsky - I will give him under guardianship, he lives in need, everyone knows that he was flogged, and everyone despises, but he does not blow his mustache. I don't want to ruin the nobles. In 12, they served, donated both blood and money ... I want to let the peasants go with the land, but so that the peasant would not dare to leave the village without the request of the master or the manager: giving personal freedom to a people who are accustomed to long-term slavery is dangerous. I will start with inventory: the peasant must work for the master for three days and three days for himself; to redeem the land he has, he will have to pay a certain amount according to the quality of the land, and it will be necessary to pay several years, the land will be his. I think that we need to keep the worldly bail, and the taxes should be reduced. "
  • Moskovit
    Moskovit 11 December 2020 08: 45
    +7
    I think it's clear why the revolution took place in 1917.
    On the Kultura channel there was an interesting cycle of programs about Russian nobles. By the middle of the 19th century, they essentially turned into a brake on the country's development. Most of them were poorly managed. They were forever owed, estates and peasants were pledged. We spent crazy money on entertainment. After the abolition of serfdom, redemption money was also largely lost. Moreover, these funds were also dragged to the west, spreading out there in Baden-Baden. The picture is depressing.
  • kalibr
    11 December 2020 10: 55
    0
    Quote: Aviator_
    By this, the economy of the USSR was undermined more than by any battle.

    That's it!
  • qaz
    qaz 11 December 2020 11: 05
    +2
    Quote: Herrr
    Russians, they are Russians. But only, to be more precise, this photo shows the Arkhangelsk Pomors in festive uniforms, and in those parts of the country they have never known serfs. smile

    Yes, we didn’t know anything about serfdom, because why should we be a fortress if our province is a "risky farming zone" - planted a bucket of potatoes - collected a bucket and a handful of potatoes.
    1. ycuce234-san
      ycuce234-san 11 December 2020 12: 47
      +1
      Good agriculture is not a prerequisite for slavery and serfdom. Slavery was quite common among the Northern Indians and the peoples of the Far North. Slavery was used in the South American mines in the desert, in the mines of the Stone Age, when there was no agriculture as such.
      I think that in the Arkhangelsk region, at the time of it, the authorities did not figure out to introduce banking serfdom - banks, managing the farms of serfs, and using the mathematics of a compound bank interest would hedge the risks of a crop failure by accumulating gold and securities, valuables. Landowners-people are simply incapable of management decisions of such quality and duration.
  • Operator
    Operator 11 December 2020 12: 05
    0
    Incorrect formulation of the question - the demand for imported grain in Britain in the 19th century was caused not so much by the reorientation of the agricultural sector to sheep breeding, as by the cheap supply of export grain in Russia and other agricultural countries.

    At the moment, most European countries (including Britain with its optimal climate for agriculture) are able to fully provide themselves with food and even import them abroad.

    The conjuncture of the international market in all ages has solved and is deciding all issues.
  • faterdom
    faterdom 11 December 2020 14: 19
    +4
    It is curious that the men from the photographs of the 19th century, even today, being caught in the opposite direction, would not surprise anyone with either their appearance or their clothes.
    But the women ...
    "Take me, scum, take me, people are waiting for me!" yelled at the taxi driver not so long ago, either a blogger, or a sex fitness trainer. And she is not at all like these great-grandmothers, not even to say that the same biological species is with them.
    Urbanization is not so terrible as immoderate emancipation.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 11 December 2020 15: 01
      +2
      Colleague, you clearly read Fedorov's article on Opinions before writing a comment laughing hi
      1. depressant
        depressant 11 December 2020 16: 50
        +4
        Eh, Anton! )))
        There we, unfortunate old ladies, are dismantled for bones and tendons. As if it was not the peasants themselves who, by the titanic mass of their writers, sociological, political and economic efforts, formed women for their needs, but when it was discovered that they had to agree to conform to the imposed image, they were wildly indignant. Not taking into account the objective complexity of our existence: critical days, often painful, short term demand in terms of marriage, the severity of childbirth, physical weakness in comparison with the male strength of any suffocate, inequality in the distribution of household duties, etc. Such are the things))) I read the forum and ran away. I will be surprised if at least one of the women comes out on him - they will peck, trample, minus to death)))
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 11 December 2020 17: 04
          +5
          Mon ami, Lyudmila Yakovlevna! Do you think I am a masculine chauvinist? No! I just like to let the woman go ahead and serve her outerwear. By the way, only one out of ten modern ladies knows how to take it and have to be taught.
          1. depressant
            depressant 11 December 2020 17: 36
            +1
            Dear Anton!)))
            I do not doubt your decency and good manners. And, surprisingly, in recent years, going out into the street, I have never witnessed a rude attitude of a man to a woman and vice versa. A society divided into classes learns to behave decently. However, in families ... You see, I live in a Khrushchev, here the conductivity of the sound is hellish. So, at the end of the first term of self-isolation, everyone somehow perked up, and in the next doorway, the young husband for 10 days in a row with terrible screams expelled his wife and child to her relatives for overspending. Taki kicked out. It was awful. In the apartment next to the stairs, a young woman is constantly shouting at the child, the child has learned to scream in response, the husband no longer appears. In the apartment opposite, a 40-year-old drug addict yells with obscenities at his stepmother, who has gone to live with her daughter and appears with her grandson only once a day - to visit her old, sick husband. Behind the wall, an elderly man with cerebral palsy yells at a lying old mother ...
            In general, an oil painting. Anger seethes in everyone, manifesting itself at the everyday level, and a woman is always the defending side. It is understandable, a man, deprived of success in life, dignity, consciousness of his own significance, takes out the melancholy of failure on a weaker being. It is somewhere overseas that emancipated women can afford to shake dollars out of the rich. And here everything is like in the 19th century, although outwardly - the 21st. Russian female share)))
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 11 December 2020 18: 13
              +3
              Lyudmila Yakovlevna! You have no idea how many times during my 47 years I wanted to hit a representative of the opposite sex !!! However, he did not hit.
              I have only one wish for modern women: do not forget that we live and die for you, and you, live and die, for our sake. Pure biology and nothing personal.
              1. depressant
                depressant 11 December 2020 18: 27
                +2
                I can imagine how much health you lost by holding back)))
                But I never had a desire to hit a man, there were reasons. But having received a reason, I began to reflect and soberly assess the consequences. Everything about everything took a second, a completely overwhelming aggressive option))) The logic of negotiations and reasonable arguments turned on.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 11 December 2020 18: 49
                  +2
                  The female body is fundamentally stronger than the male. This is how nature ordered
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 11 December 2020 19: 24
                    +2
                    May be so. Compensation for physical weakness. According to most scientists specializing in human origins, the first, or one of the first words that arose in the formation of the lexicon, was the word "no". Rather, it was the first. After all, when a person agrees with something, it does not require efforts from him - he simply does what he was told, or takes what he was given. The word "no" requires tension. This word is always more difficult to pronounce, it requires a manifestation of will. Therefore, forcing someone to nod their heads in agreement and say "yes", the person thereby drives the interlocutor into an animal state. This applies to women, either a whole segment of the population, or the entire population as a whole. Therefore, when the population is indifferent and says "yes" at the vote despite the fact that the situation clearly requires saying "no", it, the population, is reduced to a submissive animal state, and this must be understood. In the context of the article, the Russian peasantry periodically said "no". It, the peasantry, consisted of a large number of people. Now other mechanisms say no. We don't use them.
            2. kalibr
              11 December 2020 19: 52
              +1
              And I am still reproached that I do not like boors when they are everywhere and around. If there was an opportunity to kill a hundred of them a day and I would know that I can do it with impunity - I would only sew the ones like you described, only I would sew them this way, my hand would not flinch ...
            3. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 11 December 2020 20: 38
              +1
              Lyudmila Yakovlevna, you reminded me of my thoughts: we are weaker than men, but the Lord has endowed us with patience and resourcefulness.
              Emancipation is a necessary thing, but in moderation, but in America they went overboard with emancipation. Sometimes I envy American women: they are uninhibited and more focused on burning life, while Russian women are basically more restrained.
          2. kalibr
            11 December 2020 19: 49
            +2
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            Mon ami, Lyudmila Yakovlevna! Do you think I am a masculine chauvinist? No! I just like to let the woman go ahead and serve her outerwear. By the way, only one out of ten modern ladies knows how to take it and have to be taught.

            But on the other hand, Anton, how many times have I seen how our "kin" and "dfny" wanting to show off their "manners" kissed the hand of the ladies and at the same time, ha-ha, pulled them to their mouth, instead of ... bending over to the woman's outstretched hand ... Eh, "servant with a scientific degree"!
            1. depressant
              depressant 11 December 2020 20: 03
              +1
              Vyacheslav Olegovich, dear, take it easy! )))
              You don't need to kill anyone, you need to demonstrate patterns of behavior, people learn quickly. You were recently on a topic, I don’t remember which one, where I talked about social technologies. Show only! Only patience and goodwill. True, what kind of show can be in the era of coronavirus, I can not even imagine - an era that seems to last forever.
              1. kalibr
                11 December 2020 20: 26
                +1
                I, Lyudmila Yakovlevna, am now sitting at home, what show and to whom? For some, no show will fix it, just a good bullet from a good gun. Do you think where I saw what I wrote about, I did not do a "show"? But ... nobody was paying attention. The steel-concrete position of the vulgar and the ignorant is precisely that he is always right and that he is in the wrong to learn from others! How many I have written here - look in such and such a magazine, in such and such a book ... "I will not," "I do not want," "I will not," as if his copulatory organs would fall off from viewing. So what kind of "show" are you talking about?
                1. depressant
                  depressant 11 December 2020 20: 41
                  +1
                  Such an era. People now do only what can bring them some benefit personally. And the fact that it does not bring it, will not force you to strain, to learn something new. But there is another motive.
                  Well, pray tell, why would someone read what you recommend? To, after making sure that you are right, agree with your opinion, initially having the opposite, and thereby lower your own self-esteem? Despite the fact that on a subconscious level, this "someone" has such a low level, and he came to your topic in order to raise it due to disagreement with you and with other people. And you demand - go, they say, read! A person will not go to read.
                  1. kalibr
                    11 December 2020 20: 44
                    +2
                    I understand this, but it is often recommended and not related to my rightness or wrongness. This is just information. There is never enough of it. And the fact that a person does not understand this speaks not in his favor.
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 11 December 2020 22: 43
              +1
              Vyacheslav Olegovich, a woman should also be able to shake hands. For example, I understand when to shake the extended hand, when to kiss, and when to hold out with two fingers in disgust.
  • Fat
    Fat 11 December 2020 15: 42
    +3
    In 1846, the following were exported from the Petersburg port: lard - 2 pounds, horse manes and tails (then they stuffed furniture with horsehair!) - 922 pieces, and wheat - 417 pounds. It turns out that lard was exported more than wheat, although this does not mean anything, because the export went through many other ports ...

    Lard was mainly exported ghee - lard (this is not only a food product, but a lubricant). Bought in Russia and hemp (flax) of all types. More generalized data for Britain:
    According to the Commerce Collegium. At the beginning of the 67th century, 20% of Russian exports to England were "raw materials and semi-finished products", such as: timber, sheet metal, resin and tar, bristles, raw leather, alcohol, copper. Then came "supplies of life" (bread, lard, salt, vegetable and cow oil, caviar, tobacco, honey and molasses) - about 7% of all exports to Great Britain, "products" (linen and hemp, metal, woolen, as well as dressed leather, ropes and ropes) - almost 1%. “Miscellaneous goods and livestock” occupied 21/XNUMX. By 1854, "raw materials" accounted for only 38-40%, "vital supplies" - already more than 30%, "products" - about 18%, "miscellaneous goods and livestock" - 9-10%.
    1. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 11 December 2020 20: 21
      +1
      "67% of the Russian expert in Great Britain at the beginning of the 19th century."
      Only after the October Revolution was the direction of industrialization taken, but even the Soviet Union did not manage to surpass England in industry.
      1. Fat
        Fat 11 December 2020 23: 17
        0
        I'm not a word about it ... for the sake of justice. The Komerts-Collegium calculated how much was exported to the nearest ruble. Hence the ratio "raw materials and semi-finished products" / "vital supplies" / "products".
        Presumably, according to your premise, that Demidov grew wheat in the Urals. Cast iron was also supplied to Britain in the 18th century ... for the sake of justice, until the British became cheaper. As for copper, for example, everything is clear here, a rare resource in comparison with iron
        The growth in the export of "vital supplies" from the Republic of Ingushetia is largely associated with the "hunger years" in Europe in the late 1840s (the "Potato Famine" in Ireland in 1845-1849 claimed, according to various estimates, from 800 thousand to 1 million lives ( before the famine, the population was 8,2 million) https://topwar.ru/165092-an-gorta-mor-velikij-golod-v-irlandii.html - here are the details. In France - the same severe crop failures with the revolution of 1848 Before that, Russian "supplies of life" were no more interesting to Europe than from other countries ..
  • Bourgeois 1963
    Bourgeois 1963 11 December 2020 16: 39
    +2
    Quote: Olgovich
    Quote: Aviator_
    And believed that outside the Republic of Ingushetia the Russian army has nothing to do. .

    In 1944, they would have received a bullet for such a statement. Honored.

    But the leadership knew how to do the right thing - that in 1944, that in 1812.
    Quote: Aviator_
    But he died, and the then top leadership flooded to solve European problems with the blood of our soldiers.

    What nonsense: it was Kutuzov who on December 21, 1812, issued an order for the army to cross the border in order to finish off the beast.

    And SAM also took part in the hike


    Olgovich, you on this resource act as a true imperial monarchist. Observing your conclusions, I understand with a sufficient degree of certainty why the great empire sank into oblivion, with the speed of a brick into the water. The leaders of the February coup were stupid in their pristine lordly self-sufficiency, not realizing that only defeat at Napoleon could save the empire. With the victory of Bonaparte, with a high probability the peasants were freed, Sasha1 would have been left on the throne as a rare degenerate. And accordingly, there would be no prerequisites for the Great October Revolution. Bonaparte was the only savior of the empire, and as a monarchist do not hate him, but love him and light a candle for the repose of his sinful imperial soul.
  • faterdom
    faterdom 11 December 2020 17: 10
    +3
    Quote: depressant
    There we, unfortunate old ladies, are dismantled for bones and tendons.

    We just love you and want to see you as Women.
    And you don’t need to drive a Mercedes in the opposite lane, drink beer from a bottle, roll a child in a stroller, swear and bullshit out of the blue.
    It doesn't suit us.
    I hope this type of women will not have a continuation, they are just a worsened version of a man, while those whom we would like to see are, on average, better than men, kinder, calmer and more reasonable.
    Because they have a biological role to preserve and pass on everything good: genes, hearth, language, folklore, food recipes, cleanliness, love.
    And the man is an experimental model of our species, therefore he is more susceptible to mutations and deviations in order to find the successful ones, and his seed fund is developed and adjusted throughout his life, in contrast to the female, which is given from birth for the rest of his life.
  • stoqn477
    stoqn477 11 December 2020 17: 15
    +1
    Serfdom in Bulgaria during the Ottoman Empire? Who invented this? We weren't free, that's true, but not that.
    1. kalibr
      11 December 2020 20: 34
      +1
      Quote: stoqn477
      Serfdom in Bulgaria during the Ottoman Empire? Who invented this? We weren't free, that's true, but not that.

      What was it like, Stoyan? After all, this is not my notion, it was written about in some book ...
      1. Liam
        Liam 11 December 2020 20: 51
        +2
        Quote: kalibr
        And how it really was

        You have confused a lot about serfdom in other countries.
        1. kalibr
          11 December 2020 21: 17
          +1
          Quote: Liam
          You have confused a lot about serfdom in other countries.
          Ha! Everything is "from where", there is no time to check everything "from where" ... more precisely - write!
          1. Liam
            Liam 11 December 2020 21: 25
            +4
            Quote: kalibr
            Ha!

            Hu!
            Serfdom hides a whole world of relationships from a few days of work a year for the "master" to actual slavery when people are sold like cattle. This is how a road can mean a six-lane autobahn and a broken country track.
            Therefore, to write that there was serfdom both there and there, without delving into what forms it was Ha! not an analysis of the phenomenon
          2. Liam
            Liam 11 December 2020 22: 30
            +2
            Quote: kalibr
            Know more and more precisely - write!

            A powerful argument. I am interested in your reaction if a doctor or a road builder answers you, you know how to operate better or lay asphalt, do it yourself)
  • tank64rus
    tank64rus 11 December 2020 18: 55
    +1
    And who is all amazed where such cruelty in the civil war .... "Do not lose heart, Lieutenant Golitsyn ....." If in Russia all this did not come together one to one, no revolution would have been possible.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 11 December 2020 19: 54
    +5
    I wish you all good health. Sorry to write only now. After work, I started cleaning, and then cooking. Oh, and this activity is boring.
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 11 December 2020 20: 00
      +5
      Quote: Astra wild2
      Oh, and this activity is boring.


      laughing
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 11 December 2020 21: 36
        +1
        I don't remember when I did the pedicure, but with a bow there was a separate story
    2. kalibr
      11 December 2020 20: 32
      +2
      Quote: Astra wild2
      and then cooking.

      It should be kept to a minimum! For dinner - salad: cut (finely) cucumber, tomato, feta cheese, cilantro, green onion ... you can add a couple of olives - 89 r. Jars. from the Magnet will last for a long time. Then olive oil and ... that's it! Bake a couple of toasts and a glass of kefir for the night and that's it. All cooking takes 10 minutes!
      1. depressant
        depressant 11 December 2020 20: 54
        +4
        “Yeah,” I said grimly. - In the absence of a toaster - processing in a frying pan, then wash that frying pan, glasses, knife, forks, a board, and before that - vegetables. And then the table, sink, stove if necessary, wipe the floor on which something must have fallen, and so on.
        1. kalibr
          11 December 2020 21: 23
          +1
          Quote: depressant
          “Yeah,” I said grimly. - In the absence of a toaster - processing in a frying pan, then wash that frying pan, glasses, knife, forks, a board, and before that - vegetables. And then the table, sink, stove if necessary, wipe the floor on which something must have fallen, and so on.

          Nothing falls to the floor. The table is wiped with a sponge, vegetables are washed for a minute, cutlery with boiling water too ... No toaster - there are ready-made buckwheat breads that are very healthy! Here's a knife to the desired sharpness for a long time! It is even easier to eat cornflakes at night without salt and sugar with slightly warmed milk. Squirrels - a ham sandwich and that's it! Kefir half an hour before bedtime!
        2. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 11 December 2020 21: 44
          +3
          Exactly. Vyacheslav Olegovich in our skin, but everything is easy from the outside.
          If it were not for the little one, I would have turned out: kefirchik, cottage cheese, eggs. FAST FOOD, and so the little boat is disciplining me
          1. depressant
            depressant 11 December 2020 22: 20
            +4
            Yes, Vyacheslav Olegovich did not even understand what we are talking about here. I told him about washing dishes, forgetting to mention the plates, but he, they say, nothing falls on my floor. And the dust doesn't fall? And you don't need to rinse the same sponge? And a bottle of detergent, through which no, no, and that detergent will spread, and if it dries up, then you will be bored to wash. Yes, and you need to wash something, at least kitchen towels - according to the norms, they need to be washed every day, and an apron and dust to brush around - can you name it? And if the apartment does not have a European-quality renovation - just like mine, you will surely get bogged down with "light" daily cleaning. And if in addition to cook borscht?
            You know, when there was an incentive, everything was given easily and naturally, and when there was no incentive, everything falls with an unbearable burden on light female shoulders.
            And so I think of the poor peasant women from the past. Stimulus - customs, traditions, so it is necessary, otherwise they will condemn, all life is in sight. And this traditional society once fell into ruin. Ours will also leave. Food delivery, disposable tableware, agricultural holdings, agricultural working class. The production of different types of artificial food and ready-made meals is already gaining momentum. The history of the 19th and 20th centuries in 30 years will seem strange, incomprehensible, and people will ask the question: "And why did they live like this before? Wow - they ate at home!" Our motives will be incomprehensible. And our difficulties. That is, if there is no war. And then again - in dugouts, songs by the fire, and of course, there will be women to scrape the cauldrons with sand.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 11 December 2020 23: 40
              +4
              Lyudmila Yakovlevna, excuse the harshness, but only these "Nekrasov" laments are not needed!
              1. depressant
                depressant 11 December 2020 23: 43
                +3
                Well, if you don't, I won't)))
                Let's do it like this: "Oh, swing, arm! Yes, damn it, shoulder!" )))
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 12 December 2020 00: 07
                  +3
                  You can do that ... But why?
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 12 December 2020 00: 30
                    +5
                    And so that the Russian man does not moan!)))
                    And then ...
                    He groans in the fields, on the roads,
                    He groans in prisons, in prison
                    In mines, on an iron chain;
                    He groans under the barn, under the stack,
                    Under the cart, spending the night in the steppe;
                    Groans in his own poor little house
                    I am not happy with the light of God's sun;
                    Groans in every deaf little town
                    At the entrance of the courts and chambers.
                    Go to the Volga: whose groan is heard
                    Over the great Russian river?
                    wassat )))
                    Anton, don't listen to me, any bitterness in me quickly turns into laughter, I like to make fun of anything.
                    Good night and good dreams love )))
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 12 December 2020 00: 35
                      +4
                      Anton, don't listen to me, any bitterness in me quickly turns into laughter, I like to make fun of anything.
                      Why do you think I am a jester? laughing
                      Goodnight!
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 12 December 2020 07: 28
                        +3
                        “To cure sadness with chocolate.
                        And laugh in the face of passers-by ”(c).
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 12 December 2020 07: 36
                        +3
                        "-Girl, what do you like?
                        - Chocolate, oranges and Dostoevsky! "
                      3. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 12 December 2020 07: 39
                        +3
                        "The smell of vodka, pine needles and cod,
                        Mandarins, cinnamon and apples "(c).
                      4. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 12 December 2020 07: 50
                        +3
                        "New Year is rushing towards us,
                        Everything will happen soon "(C)
                      5. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 12 December 2020 07: 54
                        +2
                        "So we have a road there" (c).
            2. Phil77
              Phil77 12 December 2020 08: 51
              +2
              Quote: depressant
              I like to make fun of anything.

              Good morning Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
              But this is important in our difficult time. Laughter, irony and faith in your own * I * are an effective medicine for many misfortunes. Believe me. wink
              1. depressant
                depressant 12 December 2020 09: 16
                +2
                Good morning, Seryozha! love hi )))
                Good morning everyone, dear colleagues! ))))
                Today is Constitution Day.
                I have already contrived to go to "Novosti" with an explanation of what "modern fencing in Russian" is. Just on the peasant theme, started by Vyacheslav Olegovich. And I am still amazed at how subtly everything was thought out, how long ago, so much so that I did not notice, did not smell, did not appreciate the signs. And only now - like a sack over the head: this is why the villages of Siberia, and other places too, are not supplied with gas; that is why roads are not brought to them, they are not created ... A lot of things are not created and all of them are not created so as to squeeze the Russian peasant into the city - the "humane" method of English enclosure!
              2. Phil77
                Phil77 12 December 2020 09: 32
                +2
                Quote: depressant
                Many things are not created

                Lyudmila Yakovlevna! From these * rulers * we cannot expect anything good, nothing. Absolutely. Twenty years in power, twenty! So what? No, of course - * Crimea is ours *, * Posseidon *, * there will be no pension reform *, and other * enticements *. And what really? We, specifically, we. Have started to live better? Aha- * sshchass *! From paycheck to paycheck, and even wearing masks.
                I don’t believe this power.
              3. Phil77
                Phil77 12 December 2020 09: 34
                +3
                Quote: depressant
                Today is Constitution Day.

                laughing
              4. Korsar4
                Korsar4 12 December 2020 18: 27
                +2
                I must admit that the flag is World. But Moscow distinguished itself here too.
              5. Phil77
                Phil77 12 December 2020 18: 37
                +2
                Quote: Korsar4
                I must admit

                Good evening Sergey!
                But we must admit that we have the * funniest * barracks. laughing It is customary for Europeans to smile at their neighbors, but in which case they report to the police. Even if the neighbor left without a mask. In England - 500 pounds. In France - 135 euros. In Spain from 100 to 6000 euros. In our country, such cases are still unknown. At least * knocking * on my neighbor, I could not.
              6. Korsar4
                Korsar4 12 December 2020 18: 46
                +2
                Nothing, dashing trouble is the beginning. It remains to educate a generation of those who “know exactly how”. Put in hand an analogue of the wand, and a plan for fines.
              7. Phil77
                Phil77 12 December 2020 18: 48
                +2
                Quote: Korsar4
                plan for fines.

                Or provide * percentile * from it.
  • Elturisto
    Elturisto 12 December 2020 09: 19
    -4
    Article shit. After the author asserted that the reason for the growth of industry in England was the landlessness of the peasants, he gave up reading.
  • Forever so
    Forever so 12 December 2020 17: 58
    +1
    Everything is heading towards this, a new serfdom without the peasantry. Clans who will be signed by little people, and who will be obliged to take care of them. Maybe. And at the very top will sit a muhozhuk in galoshes and write decrees and instructions. This is such a Bureaucratic-Clan-Oligarchic system. The dead end of civilization in which the Russian steam locomotive has been skidding for 30 years, erasing its tracks.
  • Vlad world
    Vlad world 13 December 2020 13: 05
    0
    And in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia, 80% of the servicemen treated the Russian people with a pronounced contempt as they came from the Baltic outskirts and Poland. And the result is No diplomatic victories. Even after brilliant military victories
  • Vlad world
    Vlad world 13 December 2020 13: 54
    0
    An ordinary article - Liberal. The author does not know that every year 100 landowners and managers were killed by peasants. Plus fires for unknown reasons. In one province, the peasants found out that the master wants to sell with a conclusion to another - they killed so that he would not be a fool. At haymaking, the master swung at the peasant - the result was a severed hand and a ripped belly of the master. The author does not know that under the governor there was an official responsible for the disagreements between landowners and peasants. And in the case of extreme, he could easily go to hard labor for failure to fulfill his duties.
    The author does not know what the concept was - Sufferer for Peace.
    This is when an elective peasant killed either a presumptuous manager or a master. He went to hard labor and his family was supported and supported by Peace.
    The author would like to see the percentage of the nobility in the number of peasants. And only 2-3% of the nobles could afford a kind of personal ballet or orchestra ..
    And for those living in Moscow or visiting on business, I recommend visiting the small "Museum of Estates" next to the Glazunov Gallery. Go up to the 3rd floor and look at the Festive women's clothing of the peasants of the 18-19 centuries.
    The wife, despite the photographs, did not believe that they were peasant women.
    1. Tavrik
      Tavrik 13 December 2020 21: 41
      0
      Well, straight, convinced that serfdom is a blessing. "Serf Russia. The History of National Slavery" read?
      1. Vlad world
        Vlad world 14 December 2020 16: 49
        0
        Actually, I read the report of the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Even before the cancellation for many years. Examples from there.
        One title - the history of popular slavery gives rise to doubts about the historical honesty of the authors. Lobbying one point of view, extremely liberal, distorting facts and distorting them.
        And liberal historians are lying as they breathe. One excess is inflated to a hundred or more. Opposite Facts are not seen in the emphasis.
        Example - in a history textbook approved by the Ministry of Education it is written --- our land is great and abundant, but there is no Order in it. Like a quote from the chronicle. Although it is written in the Chronicles - our land is great and abundant and there is no Garment in it. Adults point-blank do not see the difference between P and N. Between Order and Attire. Liberal historians 4 people textbook for grade 6.
        Maybe try to think.
        1. Tavrik
          Tavrik 15 December 2020 13: 16
          0
          I think regularly ...
          I think that the reports of the Ministry of Internal Affairs did not always reflect the real state of these very affairs. Do not believe me - read the gallant reports of modern officials.
          And I also think that the sale (donation) of your fellow believers and fellow countrymen is somehow not quite a good thing ... Neither Muslims nor Jews did this .. This is not for you blacks from Africa to bargain ..
          I also think that when one can sell (donate, lose) a person to another, this is called slavery.
          So you write as if you have already looked after the village with the serfs ... "We all look at Napoleons, there are millions of two-legged creatures" (AS Pushkin).
          Well, how will the master put himself on the market, separately from the family?
          1. Vlad world
            Vlad world 15 December 2020 14: 32
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            Well, the liberal sees what he wants to see. An example with a textbook - we don't notice. And we give out our fantasies as fantasies of others.
            By the way, at the moment people are being sold in thousands both in Europe and America. And they give the same. One firm bought another together with people and Nothing. You were bought by a respected company and you must correspond to it .--- Conversation in Moscow of one phony with a cashier.
  • Tavrik
    Tavrik 13 December 2020 20: 57
    0
    Quote: Olgovich
    And therefore the losses are less and the army is in order:

    Yes, you are a fantastic! At least read the memoirs of Russian officers. Considering that we were following Napoleon, we got even less supplies. Something, of course, was brought up, but neither KAMAZ nor Uralov, even one and a half were not there yet. With clear consequences ...