Military Review

Formation of a peasant civilization

342
Formation of a peasant civilization
Top of the medieval "family pyramid". Above are the noblest, that is, the well-born, living by labor masses of rootless, "simple" people who create all their wealth for them. Magnificent book of hours of the Duke of Berry. 1410-1490s (Museum Condé, Chantilly)


The man has the character of a pig,
Doesn't know how to live decently,
If he gets rich,
That will start to go crazy.
That the villans are not fat,
That deprivation suffered,
Ought from year to year
Century to keep them in a black body.

People are impudent, careless,
Vile, stingy and deceitful
Treacherous and arrogant!
Who will count his sins?
He imitates Adam,
He despises God's will,
Doesn't keep commandments!
May the Lord punish them!
(Bertrand de Born (1140-1215) Sirventa 1195)

The beginning and end of the peasant civilization. Many topics that are constantly discussed at HE, all the time revolve around the same question: why such a powerful state entity, like the USSR, in such an inglorious way ended its existence in 1991. And what kind of explanation is not invented, including the most conspiracy theories. Although there are those who point out that this was a completely historically conditioned process. But how and what caused it, what deep tendencies of the historical process formed its basis - this will be discussed in the next materials of the new cycle "The Beginning and End of Peasant Civilization."

Let's start with some general theoretical propositions so as not to return to them anymore. The first thing to remember when studying history human society, this is that any phenomenon that takes place in it goes through five stages in its development, which are analogous to the life of any living creature on our planet: birth, formation, growth, maturity, death. Although death for artificially created institutions, phenomena or cultural objects is not obligatory. They may well exist somewhere on the outskirts of the fact that this will replace everything.

Further: already in ancient times, the development of the needs of Homo sapiens led to the division of the productive activity of people, initially only hunters and gatherers, into farmers and pastoralists. Both those and others used the land as a source of material benefits obtained by them. But the size of the plot has always been limited by the physical capabilities of the family. The primitive hunter, who became a shepherd, could not graze his livestock where he had to, the borders of his plot were other people's pastures. And in the same way, a peasant farmer could not take himself too much land, since he was not able to cultivate it, and besides, neighboring lands could be located next to his land.


Firewall farming was actively used back in the XNUMXth century!

Over time, this is how a neighboring community emerged, the signs of which are as follows: the presence of a common territory, common land use and communal governing bodies of such a community, consisting of separate families. In an era just as ancient, cities appear on the planet (see. Here Aphrodite went ashore (Cyprus in the era of copper and bronze) и The first metalwork and ancient cities: Chatal-Hüyuk - "the city under the hood" (part 2)), whose inhabitants, although they also have "agricultural plots" or, say, graze goats outside the city wall, but live at the same time by exchanging their products for the products of peasants. The relationship between nomadic pastoralists and farmers is interesting. It is noted that a nomad could establish a well-arranged life and have everything necessary for life, but ... at the same time remained poor. He could become rich and independent primarily from epizootics in only one way: by taking the grain from the farmer. That is, the incursions of the former on the latter were an inevitable consequence of the division of people into farmers and pastoralists. By the way, the farmers themselves could live without trade with nomads, they could build cities inaccessible to their military forces, and then create cannons that allowed them to shoot the most numerous nomadic horde!

It was the presence of peasants, owners of the land plots they cultivated, that became the basis of all civilizations of the Ancient World, which arose first in river valleys, and then, as the tools of labor developed, spread to less fertile lands. There were, of course, some peculiarities. For example, in Athens, all citizens-citizens had land outside the city - a kind of "dacha", from which they had, some less - some more, agricultural products. In Sparta, all the Spartiats were the owners of the land, but they could neither sell it nor buy the surplus, but helots cultivated it, which supplied them with everything they needed.

Terrible Rome collapsed only when peasant farms almost completely disappeared in it, although there was an abundance of agricultural products produced by slaves. The low efficiency of slave labor was so obvious that the process of creating a "pseudo-peasantry" began in Rome - columns and "slaves with huts" appeared. But the process of the collapse of the Roman state could no longer be stopped: the barbarization of Roman society, which became a consequence of the disappearance of the free peasantry, had gone too far, which is why some barbarians simply did not want to fight others.

Rome collapsed, and again it was the peasant community of the neighborhood that became the main unit of society. Now every peasant was theoretically ready to fight and even die for his land, but the raids of the Vikings, Hungarians and Arabs that had just begun put on the agenda for the European community the question of the inadequacy of the weapons available to them. The same free franc-farmer was supposed to appear on the March fields, having with him a spear, a Francis ax, a shield and a leather helmet on his head. A leather jacket was enough as a carapace. And the sword was out of the question. It's just that less than 200 years have passed since the warrior-miles needed a horse, which, by the way, the peasant could not use in the household, "brunia" (or armor), helmet, shield, sword, spear - in words, a whole "gentleman's" set, costing something like 30 cows or 15 mares. Naturally, no peasant could have such a herd and would not buy an expensive, beautiful, but useless horse for his needs. And so it was everywhere, including in Russia, although Art. Lieutenant D. Zenin back in 1980 in his article published in the journal "Tekhnika-Molodyozhi" wrote that every peasant in our farm had a sword and chain mail, as well as an oak shield. And this despite the fact that all the found shields of the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries, as it turned out, were made of linden, and in the Scandinavian sagas one of the allegories of the shield - "Linden of War". But this, so, had by the way ...


Peasant labor in winter. Magnificent book of hours of the Duke of Berry. 1410-1490s (Museum Condé, Chantilly)

The main thing is that as a result of this, the process of enslavement of the peasants began. At first, the king's warriors received from him land with the peasants, who, while remaining personally free, bore various duties in his favor. Then, either this way or that way, they fell into dependence on their lord and became serfs. And this is where the socio-economic processes of interest to us begin, which in the future led to very many truly tragic events and played a huge role in the history of civilizations and peoples.

So, in France, the process of enslavement went quite slowly and was formalized legally, and in the documents issued to the peasants by feudal lords and monasteries (and they also actively participated in their enslavement), the land belonging to them personally was indicated. In England, on the contrary, everything happened very quickly, since the Norman conquest took place there. There was a community - a manor with some amount of land. And it was these lands that were transferred to the lord, who disposed of this land and the peasants living on it. That is, when the English peasant was asked on what basis he owns the land, he replied: "According to the custom of the manor and the will of the lord!" At the same time, he did not have any documents confirming his rights to his personally owned land property.


Neighboring community. Figure: from the textbook Cf. centuries for the 6th grade. Since plots of land are divided by quality into good, medium and bad, peasant plots in the community were divided into wedges of different quality, separated by boundaries. And since the strips of earth lay interspersed (so that no one was offended!), This arrangement was called "across the strip"

Something similar took place in Russia, where the tsar gave a nobleman a "village with peasants" for the service, and he had a paper for that salary, but the peasants were not given anything at the same time, and they, like their English counterparts, used land "according to the custom of the community and the will of the landowner."

And then the Little Ice Age of 1312-1791 began in Europe, bringing with it cold, hunger, epidemics and pestilence. Chroniclers reported that when King Charles VII arrived in Paris in 1438, the winter was so cold that wolves from the Bois de Boulogne ran into its streets, looking for warmth and food. Naturally, warm woolen clothes have become well, simply necessary. Wool was provided by sheep, but small-scale peasant farming was not enough for the production of cloth from sheep's wool on an industrial scale. And here, fortunately for Europe, the Dutch national liberation war against Spain coincided with the first bourgeois revolution at that time. The Dutch bourgeoisie gained power and the opportunity to do what is beneficial without looking back. The most profitable at that time was the production of cloth - this is what the Dutch entrepreneurs did. But there was not enough pasture for sheep in tiny Holland ...


Feudal estate. Figure: from the textbook Cf. centuries for the 6th grade. Through the strip, as you can see, is preserved. The plowing of the feudal lord is highlighted in black. A castle appeared, where you could hide from the enemy invasion and where you can get an invitation to a Christmas dinner in a hungry year - at least eat there from the heart and remember it all next year. And it was possible to give a strong little son there to serve, and there, you see, he will become a squire, and if brave and dexterous - and a knight, then the young baroness will like it, and then the old baron will die, and - what the hell is not joking - the son some Pierre the swineherd will become Pierre de Lacroix!

But again, fortunately for Europe, literally across the strait from Holland was England, where as soon as there was a steady demand for wool on the market, fencing began immediately, driving the peasants from their land, that is, in fact, the mass liquidation of the peasantry. At the same time, laws were consistently passed against the vagabonds and beggars who flooded England, who were yesterday's peasants. There were several such laws (1495, 1536, 1547, 1576), and all of them to one degree or another were aimed at the physical extermination of "superfluous people." Their cruelty was such that these laws were called "bloody". Such was the reality of the time that the scourging of a vagabond, tied to a wheelbarrow, until “until the blood flows through the body,” branding with a red-hot iron and executions by hanging were considered ... quite normal. In fairness, it should be noted that the law still distinguished an old, weak and crippled person from a completely healthy and able-bodied person, but nevertheless begging for alms. The first was allowed this, and it was the second who were punished for it.

However - there really is no silver lining - all this has become a blessing for England. In less than a century, the country has managed to radically change the social structure of its population. The number of peasants dropped sharply. Now they only supplied food to the sovereign lords, and their role as producers of commercial agricultural products became negligible. Bochars, cheese-makers, brewers, shepherds, foresters, wheelers, millers who lived in the countryside were in demand, but the actual grain-producing farmers became significantly smaller. Cheap grain for bread was now purchased abroad, in particular, in the same Russia, where the consequences of climate change were not so severe. Well, the developing British industry received a lot of workers, and for the minimum wage. They stopped selling wool to Holland and began to produce cloth on site. Cloth-making required machine tools, machine tools - advanced mechanical engineering, and so through the blood and suffering of tens of thousands (!) Of ruined English peasants, their country came to become a famous "workshop of the whole world."

Yes, but why was the enclosure only in England, why was it not, say, in France? Or did the nobles there not want to cash in on wool production? And it was in the form of land holding. In England, as we remember, it was based on the "custom of the manor and the will of the lord", that is ... in words, and you will not go to court with them! The lord said "go away" - and that was enough!


Fencing in England. Figure: from the textbook Cf. centuries for the 6th grade. This is how the same feudal estate looked after fencing!

But in France, the transition of peasants from a free state to a serf state was recorded in documents, and they could prove in court that this or that land plot was their property, together with which they became "a man of such and such a baron or count." That is why the revolution of 1789-1799 was required there, in which, by the way, many peasants supported not revolutionaries, but ... aristocratic landowners, which gave the founders of Marxism a basis to talk about the reactionary nature of the peasantry. Well, what exactly is this very "reactionary" is, we will talk in one of the following materials.

To be continued ...
Author:
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  1. Nazar
    Nazar 6 December 2020 05: 55
    +17
    Quote: "... like the USSR, it ended its existence in such an inglorious way in 1991. ... it was a completely historically conditioned process."
    You don't have to read further - all this writing is intended only for one purpose - to "scientifically" substantiate the thesis that the USSR was destroyed not as a result of the betrayal of the "elite", but for some "objective" reasons, and it could not have been otherwise.
    These attempts to kick the destroyed country are already pretty tired, but they are repeated over and over again. Interestingly, the people who write this, that they think that if you mess with the past, then today will not seem so gloomy? This cheap trick doesn't work.
    1. Doccor18
      Doccor18 6 December 2020 07: 23
      +10
      However, notice how subtly and cleverly the author throws a stone in the USSR ...
      Formation of a peasant civilization
      - the topic is quite historical and extremely interesting, but to kick a deceased superpower (in which he was born and raised, but hates it so fiercely) can be done along the way, seemingly imperceptibly, but .... kicked.
      Empires are born and die - this is, of course, a historical process. But the USSR had a foundation of historical justice. Not a single state has set itself such a good goal as the prosperity of the entire people and each person in particular. And the only People's State in the world fell because of the most powerful subversive activities of Western intelligence services and their agents in high party offices.
      1. kalibr
        6 December 2020 08: 21
        0
        Quote: Doccor18
        And the only People's State in the world fell because of the most powerful subversive activities of Western intelligence services and their agents in high party offices.

        And why then did their states not fall because of the activities of "our people"? There were few communists in France, little money was sent to Ges Hall ... And our special services turned out to be "worse" than theirs, or were there people less corrupt than ours?
        1. Doccor18
          Doccor18 6 December 2020 08: 47
          +8
          “Previously, the bourgeoisie allowed itself to be liberal, defended bourgeois-democratic freedoms and thus created its popularity among the people. Now not a trace of liberalism is left ... The banner of bourgeois-democratic freedoms has been thrown overboard. I think that you, the representatives of the communist and democratic parties, will have to raise this banner and carry it forward if you want to gather the majority of the people around you. There is no one else to lift it.
          Previously, the bourgeoisie was considered the head of the nation, it defended the rights and independence of the nation, putting them "above all else." Now not a trace of the "national principle" remains. Now the bourgeoisie is selling the rights and independence of the nation for dollars. The banner of national independence and national sovereignty has been thrown overboard. There is no doubt that you, representatives of the communist and democratic parties, will have to raise this banner and carry it forward if you want to be patriots of your country, if you want to become the leading force of the nation. There is no one else to lift it. "
          I.V. Stalin, 14.10.1952
          Stalin made it clear that the idea of ​​a world revolution was done away with once and for all. Oddly enough, but subsequent general secretaries continued this line. They helped, of course, the communist parties of different countries financially, but there was no question of any collapse, destruction, serious destabilization of these states. And this help, over time, became a kind of "sluggish". Money and caravans with weapons went, but the return was negligible. One gets the impression that the assistance and work were carried out as if "by inertia."
          The collective Western capital had a clear goal - the destruction of the People's Soviet State at any cost, regardless of losses.
          1. kalibr
            6 December 2020 12: 36
            -3
            Quote: Doccor18
            Money and caravans with weapons went, but the return was negligible. One gets the impression that the assistance and work were carried out as if "by inertia."

            They failed to mean, of course. And they did it! What good fellows! Maybe then it was not a fucking thing to start?
            1. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 6 December 2020 15: 03
              +6
              Well, who knew that the Shpakovskys, instead of developing socialism, would become secondary clumsy imitators of the capitalist West and betray the country to the Soviets for jeans and soy sausage? "You had to fight evil, not join it!"
              1. kalibr
                6 December 2020 16: 57
                +3
                Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                to develop socialism

                Makar! So I developed it from 1982 to 91 very effectively. Why was I kept in the party and at the university, and I had everything that the workers did not have from the machine? This is precisely because he was good at promoting Marxism-Leninism to the masses. A lecturer of my level would try to tell at least one anecdote to the people ... this would be the last thing in my work. To whom, you know, the first carrot, the first whip! It's time to know!
                1. IS-80_RVGK2
                  IS-80_RVGK2 6 December 2020 17: 00
                  +4
                  Judging by the very depressing result, the development was still not very good. But it is, a little sarcasm. In general, of course, it's not just about you.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 6 December 2020 18: 05
                    +5
                    In general, of course, it's not just you.
                    It is good that you are aware of this. It's about all of us.
                2. Andrey VOV
                  Andrey VOV 6 December 2020 18: 42
                  +6
                  How did you develop it? Create something? Built? Invented? Worked in a factory? Served in the army? .. it's worth looking in the mirror
                  1. kalibr
                    6 December 2020 19: 07
                    0
                    This was also necessary, Andrey! You should have seen the happy faces of the farm workers when I told them how Comrade Leonid Ilyich Brezhnev personally fights for peace and friendship throughout the world. I am sure that a hard worker with calloused hands, having made a detail, did not get as much pleasure as I did, pursuing the party's policy to the masses! And by the way, I didn't invent, but I got three or four copyright certificates for new toys. Not an engineer, right? And I got I - by the way, I just don't blame anyone. The destruction of the country was natural and inevitable.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 6 December 2020 19: 34
                      +6
                      I am sure that a hard worker with calloused hands, having made a detail, did not get the same pleasure as I did, pursuing the party's policy to the masses!
                      And I'm more than sure I didn't get it. For having exceeded the planned figure by 100%, the hard worker in the next quarter had not a bonus, but +100 percent to the planned output. Why work well?
                      1. Xnumx vis
                        Xnumx vis 6 December 2020 23: 38
                        0
                        Quote: 3x3zsave
                        And I'm more than sure I didn't get it. For having exceeded the planned figure by 100%, the hard worker in the next quarter had not a bonus, but +100 percent to the planned output. Why work well?

                        And also an emergency - Black Saturday due to the time taken away by lecturers and meetings, and then Sunday with the transfer of wages of this day to the fund for peace in the world.
                    2. Phil77
                      Phil77 6 December 2020 19: 39
                      +8
                      Quote: kalibr
                      You should have seen the happy faces of the farm workers when I told them how Comrade Leonid Ilyich Brezhnev personally fights for peace and friendship throughout the world.

                      And here, with all due respect, but ... I don’t believe! And lecturers-propagandists came to us, also sparing no effort to talk about the struggle for peace, about the hard life of the proletariat abroad, about the struggle for their rights / naturally there! We are OK with this /.
                      What was the attitude towards them? Well ... to put it mildly critical. Everyone perfectly understood the rules of the game. wink
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 7 December 2020 06: 50
                        +3
                        I wonder who is fighting for "peace and friendship" now? And who is talking about this? And how?
                      2. Akuzenka
                        Akuzenka 7 December 2020 13: 17
                        +2
                        Of course they are fighting! Everything! They are fighting in Syria, in the NKR and other well-known places. This is the only way, now, the struggle for peace is taking place. And how many people will benefit, capital is not interested, which makes money and their world on this
                      3. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 7 December 2020 14: 08
                        +2
                        Exactly. Only the ideas of peace and friendship are not the same for everyone.
                3. Andrey VOV
                  Andrey VOV 6 December 2020 20: 19
                  +5
                  Yes, their faces were pleased not with the fact that Leonid Ilyich was fighting, but with the fact that you can take a break and watch and listen to a young sober liar, nothing more
              2. Whatislove
                Whatislove 11 December 2020 23: 01
                0
                The question is why, if the USSR was declared as a state of "Workers and Peasants"?
      2. kalibr
        6 December 2020 12: 37
        0
        Quote: Doccor18
        Now the bourgeoisie is selling the rights and independence of the nation for dollars.

        What? Can't find money to buy? Were we so poor? Or are they not that venal?
    2. victor50
      victor50 6 December 2020 12: 34
      +6
      Quote: kalibr
      And our special services turned out to be "worse" than theirs, or were there people less corrupt than ours?

      Remind me, what positions did you hold during the Soviet era? By ideological convictions? A fitter? And not guilty of anything ?! On the contrary - be proud! Maybe there are less corrupt ones there - there are so many repainted communists and hidden fighters against the USSR, KGB officers who hate the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, etc. never seen the light!
      1. kalibr
        6 December 2020 17: 00
        -1
        Quote: victor50
        And not guilty of anything ?!

        "And it's not guilty of anything, but who will prove it? The Monday before last, at seven fifteen, I left the kindergarten through the window!" Great movie was in my time!
        1. Phil77
          Phil77 6 December 2020 19: 04
          +3
          Quote: kalibr
          Great movie was in my time!

          * Dot, dot, comma. *?
    3. bayard
      bayard 8 December 2020 00: 23
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      And why then did their states not fall because of the activities of "our people"? There were few communists in France, little money was sent to Ges Hall ... And our special services turned out to be "worse" than theirs, or were there people less corrupt than ours?

      After the Trotskyist coup in 1953, led by Khrushchev, there was no talk of any export of the revolution. Khrushchev surrendered so many of our positions in the international arena for all his short "reign". Deliberately surrendered, covering it with a light veneer of foolishness and feigned valuntarism.
      After the displacement of Khrushch, the state stabilized somewhat - the government and ministries reappeared, the economy recovered, but we lost such socialist countries as China, Indonesia, Albania, and partly Yugoslavia.
      Yes, and under Brezhnev ... the KGB was headed by a saboteur and hereditary agent of influence, the nephew of Sverdlov and the largest jeweler (owner of the largest jewelry house) in Moscow - Yuri Andropov.
      And who was to fight world imperialism?
      Him ?
      That's really figurines. He put all his efforts on covering and nurturing agents for the future collapse of the country.
      Gorbachev, Shevardnadze, Yakovlev, etc., these are just his promotions and protégés.
      They ended his business with the destruction of the Union and the plundering of the public property.
      And you, citizen, traded in the same direction in those distant Soviet years. yes Lectures were given to ... collectives ... "wherever you work, just not work" - as an agitator-propagandist.
      Allegedly for "our bright socialist future." yes
      But in fact?
      They were waiting. yes
      And they waited.
      And now you defend in all your weakness the right of parasites to the right to rob, and about the "impossibility" of returning to a just social state. bully
      But extremely ... EXTREMELY unconvincing.
      But the editors will publish you, because you are a propagandist of the "legality" of parasitism. lol
      Under the Union for Socialism he propagandized. laughing
      Under the bourgeoisie - for the rights of feudal lords and aligarhat. smile
      Such people are valuable with any power.
  2. kalibr
    6 December 2020 09: 06
    0
    Quote: Doccor18
    how subtle and clever

    Now, you said it yourself. You have to work this way, and then nothing will fall apart. And the rough "masonry" crumbles over time ... Remember what Mueller said to Stirlitz? "Fanatics cannot win. They get tired of themselves!" So the USSR held on for a long time on the fanaticism of the masses: "On the woe to all bourgeoisie, we will fan the world fire!" , "The people and the party are one!" well, etc. Well, then people just wanted Coca-Cola and jeans. Fanaticism is boring!
  3. Fat
    Fat 6 December 2020 14: 09
    +2
    Quote: Doccor18
    The USSR had a foundation of historical justice. Not a single state has set itself such a good goal as the prosperity of the entire people and each person in particular.

    Alexander please give the definition of "historical justice".
    Yandex suggested this:
    Historical justice is a complex concept that includes a set of political and historical conditions under which every event in the life of mankind is illuminated by the deep meaning of Truth. Historical Justice has one distinguishing feature - it is always on the side of Russia.

    Historical justice is not revealed to everyone, but only to the Russian people. Because no foreigner (unless, of course, he is a Serb brother) will ever be able to learn all the depths of historical justice.
    The concept of "historical justice" is opposed by a negative concept that exists directly on the money of the CIA and was created by it - "Historical injustice". "Historical injustice" is sown all over the world by NATO, Foreigners and teachers of Ukrainian-language schools.
    Historical justice Historical injustice
    Stalin's rise to power Hitler's betrayal of Stalin
    Partition of Poland between Stalin and Hitler The existence of Poland
    Peacekeeping operation in Chechnya Dirty genocide of Georgians in South Ossetia
    Little Russia wants to be part of Russia "Ukraine" does not want to be part of Russia
    .......
    World financial crisis abroad World financial crisis in Russia
    I.S. - It is very symbolic that the brightest figure in the history of Mankind, by his name alone, symbolized Historical Justice. The two initial letters of those words became the first letters in our holy name - Joseph Stalin.
    (c) PDRS-pedia
    I don’t know about you ... But this definition does not suit me. It's a feverish delusion, not a definition
    1. Doccor18
      Doccor18 6 December 2020 14: 49
      +1
      And where did you find this ??? wassat
      Various concepts of "historical justice" on the Internet are dark ... From deep philosophical to pragmatically economic.
      What for me "historical justice" is a concrete understanding of what is due in the present, a clear and impartial knowledge of the past.
      Justice itself is a somewhat relative concept, since what seems fair to one can infringe on the rights of another.
      Historical justice, relying on true history (as a science), more concretizes and, I would even add, simplifies the concept of "justice".
      1. Fat
        Fat 6 December 2020 15: 43
        +4
        laughing Yandex issued this ON THE FIRST line ... wassat I indicated the source. PDRS-pedia.
  • kalibr
    6 December 2020 07: 33
    +6
    Quote: Nazar
    This cheap trick does not work.

    I don't want a repetition, Nazar!
    1. Nazar
      Nazar 6 December 2020 08: 20
      +10
      kalibr (Vyacheslav) - Yes, not a word like "I don't want" repetitions - thirty years have passed and not "let go".
      And how will he "let go" if I was born in that Country, the Country gave me an education, (school, university), served urgently in the SA, gave the oath to his country.
      Therefore, this is how I react to any attempts to write dirty tricks about the USSR. hi
      1. kalibr
        6 December 2020 12: 33
        +7
        Quote: Nazar
        Therefore, this is how I react to any attempts to write dirty tricks about the USSR.

        Once again: write no dirty trick! Anyone can write interesting material based on his personal experience, experiences, knowledge, professional experience. The problem EVERY day is to write interesting enough material for everyone. And one or two you can easily. Try it! Everything else is interesting ...
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 6 December 2020 07: 38
    +17
    Well, I suggest you still read the conclusions of the Author! The trend, popular after the 60s of the last century, to blame either the “personality” or the “nomenclature” for everything, is stalled today. In the first case, it is easier to "poke a finger in the direction of Moscow and everything is clear" who is the poop ", in the second, it is more complicated" the bureaucratic apparatus is all-embracing. " In Soviet times, it even included “directors of timber industry enterprises”! It was all the more sickening to look at the children of directors, chief accountants and leading engineers, who in 99 denounced the "nomenclature", completely not realizing that they themselves belonged to this "class of celestials".
    Raised by "nannies", "governesses", after whom the "maids" were removed, the "drivers" came sincerely did not find understanding among their fellow students. Then the breakdowns began, when my mother, the chief accountant, found herself overboard and immediately there were problems how to cook, how to get there. The funniest thing about those who got out of the cage was started to peck at the former "friends", but they met with sympathy from ordinary guys. Especially shook up "our peppers" 97 year. Of the two dozen, only five people survived. The rest fell to our level. I apologize for the extensive distraction, but the example I have given is a “quasi-existence” of a collective (commission, deliberative) without responsibility, when a group of people is so detached from society that it does not understand others.
    You can philosophize for a long time about “conciliarity, democracy and one-man management”, but the authorities will not be able to “organize” their governance without the apparatus (pardon the tautology) of governance. It will be elected or appointed. People will always sin with nepotism, protectionism, etc. And it is not yet known who the chosen one or the appointed one will most hap.
    That is, the number of officials becomes a problem. But an industrial society before the advent of artificial intelligence will not be able to do this, since high qualifications initially provide for the lack of self-sufficiency.
    The second option is a peasant society, where at the grassroots level the cell is self-sufficient and productive. But can an agricultural state survive today? It won't be a tasty morsel for neighbors !!!?
    These are the pies with kittens.
    Thank you Vyacheslav Olegovich for the topic (for many I anticipate this will be an educational program) and a platform for discussion !!!
    Regards, Kote!
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 6 December 2020 07: 54
      +11
      But after the habitual way of life collapsed, one could learn to stand up.
      Starting from how to ride the subway. To the ability to cook.
      And, in general, to solve those problems that were solved somehow.

      A kind of version of Jack London's "Sea Wolf".
      And it turned out when there was no choice.

      Yet the basis of everything is character.
      1. kalibr
        6 December 2020 09: 01
        +3
        Quote: Korsar4
        Yet the basis of everything is character.

        Exactly! We were the elite of university science, teachers of the history of the CPSU, but ... it collapsed in one day. Let's go to retrain, "look for a place", find it, become a "master" in a new business. Someone ... couldn't. And those who had character and who experienced a strong sense of duty to their family achieved a lot in the new conditions.
        1. Aviator_
          Aviator_ 6 December 2020 09: 25
          +5
          We were the elite of university science, teachers of the history of the CPSU

          Do you seriously think so? That your subject is not a set of spells, but science?
          1. kalibr
            6 December 2020 10: 17
            +6
            Quote: Aviator_
            Do you seriously think so? That your subject is not a set of spells, but science?

            Sergei, after all, you are kind of strange. Which I think doesn't matter, does it? It matters how it was in society. And it was a SCIENCE, so it was considered officially and the attitude towards it was appropriate. That's what's important! In addition, any science has tools, concepts and research methods. The history of the CPSU had all this. Scientific communism had problems with this. So he was "less of a science" than the history of the CPSU. % I find it difficult to say. Explained easily?
        2. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 6 December 2020 17: 16
          +2
          "We were the elite of university science" Vyacheslav Olegovich, and what is the practical use of such an elite for a university?
          I'm sorry, but you are doing more good now than then
          1. kalibr
            6 December 2020 17: 48
            +2
            Aster! But that was in the USSR! Don't you understand? For every Soviet holiday from us an article. That the engineer will write the correct verified article on May 1st? Will not be able to! Who will make the report "Soviet Science and the World Revolutionary Process"? Programmer? And without this report, how? OK asks !!! And who will check at the Department of Mechanical Engineering how party studies are conducted there at the evening university of Marxism-Leninism? This is nonsense, say? You would have said it then! I would listen ... How the university would report how many lectures its teachers gave to the people? And who would read them? Associate Professor at the Department of Machine Tools? On the topic: Soviet machine tools are the best machine tools in the world. And in how many hairdressers, how many farms and factories would he read it? We took the rap for the whole university. I gave 20 lectures a month, with a plan of 5 ... You understand that there was nothing more important than IDEOLOGICAL WORK and educating cadres in the SPIRIT of MARXISM-LENINISM AND PROLETARIAN INTERNATIONALISM! And who did it? We did it! And you say "benefit". I would show you the "benefit" for such questions, if you asked me them to me at a seminar on the history of the CPSU ... you would remember them for life!
            1. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 6 December 2020 18: 31
              +3
              "I would have remembered for the rest of my life" - did you PERSONALLY BELIEVE in what you said then or were you an "organ"? (I think Saltykov-Shchedrin)
              1. kalibr
                7 December 2020 06: 34
                +2
                Quote: Astra wild2
                "I would have remembered for the rest of my life" - did you PERSONALLY BELIEVE in what you said then or were you an "organ"? (I think Saltykov-Shchedrin)

                Until a certain moment ... And then no longer, but hoped that "everything will be crushed." We always hope for the best. And then I had too good a salary not to believe ha ha.
                1. Astra wild2
                  Astra wild2 7 December 2020 16: 15
                  0
                  Thank you for not dodging the question.
                  1. kalibr
                    7 December 2020 16: 25
                    +2
                    Why evade something? I am writing the truth ... I was a good organ of the lecturer: I presented everything the most boring, but necessary, that ... in a word, I was in good standing as a lecturer. You can see that I write well, but you have to knock with your finger, and there are bones in it. But my tongue is boneless!
            2. bk0010
              bk0010 6 December 2020 22: 37
              0
              Quote: kalibr
              I would show you the "benefit" for such questions, if you asked me them to me at a seminar on the history of the CPSU ... you would remember them for life!
              Heard how. I didn't even have to retake it in 92.
              1. kalibr
                7 December 2020 06: 34
                +1
                Quote: bk0010
                I didn't even have to retake it in 92.

                ??????
    2. kalibr
      6 December 2020 08: 26
      +9
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      People will always sin with nepotism,

      There was an anecdotal case in the USA (an example of a good PR!). One candidate for the Senate denounced his opponent: "And he even, it is simply indecent to talk about it, practices nepotism towards his sister-in-law!" And Americans are ignorant people - they were horrified by this word and ... did not choose it! And the winner did not say anything "like that", it is important how and to whom he said!
    3. ee2100
      ee2100 6 December 2020 11: 06
      +3
      Why are you so interested in the fate of the nomenklatura and officials? Let them solve their problems themselves. Shpakovsky writes that he moved from the elite to the category of ordinary teachers. The word elite has many meanings. I associate it with the word "expensive" "elite manufacturer", "elite housing", "elite prostitutes" ", etc.
      "The second option is a peasant society, where at the grassroots level the cell is self-sufficient and productive. But can an agricultural state survive at the present time? Will it not be a tasty morsel for its neighbors !!!?"
      Peasant society, translated into modern Russian bureaucratic, is "peasant economy". Do you call this a cell? Do not forget to include agricultural holdings in the number of these cells, and you will get a completely different agricultural state.
    4. depressant
      depressant 6 December 2020 12: 46
      +7
      Dear colleague Kote pane Kohanka, you will not believe, but by some inspiration yesterday I periodically read sluggishly about the economic organization and political structure of the primitive community - about what is now called primitive communism. You know, it kicked in! But she concluded that it did not contribute to the development of productive forces on the basis of science)))
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 6 December 2020 14: 38
        +7
        Quote: depressant
        Dear colleague Kote pane Kohanka, you will not believe, but by some inspiration yesterday I periodically read sluggishly about the economic organization and political structure of the primitive community - about what is now called primitive communism. You know, it kicked in! But she concluded that it did not contribute to the development of productive forces on the basis of science)))

        And the devil knows? At one time, on April 17, 1925, Bukharin told the peasants not to be afraid of reprisals, get rich !!! Perhaps if the USSR had an extra quarter of a century, we would have carried out industrialization without forced methods of 27-29 years! Artel (collective) production is definitely more efficient than individual production, this is an axiom. No matter agriculture or industrial production! The private owner could not afford a tractor. Ariel could. Buying a turntable tractor stimulates the industry. It's more fun to farm with a tractor, incomes are higher, there are opportunities to buy a combine. Buying a harvester again stimulates the industry and so on. Albeit on fingers, but it was a chance for the development of the country in the late 20s. The same German owners in the 20s practiced the purchase of agricultural machinery in a club. Then the days of the work of the equipment were distributed by lot.
        An example of the effectiveness of collective agricultural labor was also in Russia. In Siberia, spit farm farms effectively used mechanical plows, seeders, and horse-drawn reapers. Artels of lumberjacks used tractors and machines. Artels of fishermen caught fish. But in central Russia, the peasant was still plowing with a plow !!!
        There was only one trouble, we didn’t have peace and the progressive development of the industry for half a century, even a quarter of a century.
        We can scold and vilify Stalin, but he did exactly half of what Trotsky and Bukharin wanted. Forcing the industrialization of the country to the point of impossibility, at the expense of the peasants. The excesses on the ground and at the top were terrible, the scythe of dispossession, hunger and repression touched every family in our fatherland! Including mine. Well, we were also lucky with the Great Depression, just yesterday, the unhappy Soviet Union since 1929 became a tidbit for selling goods. Lucky, so be it.
        But it is more terrible to realize something else, if this tyrant and despot Stalin did not do this, then the border of Russia would pass today along the spurs of the Ural Mountains. And it's not a fact that we spoke Russian.
        1. depressant
          depressant 6 December 2020 16: 21
          +7
          Yes, just imagine, from my father's side my grandfather was shot, from my mother's side he was repressed, he served many years, and my parents revered Stalin. Khrushchev in their eyes was a scoundrel, because he destroyed the Stalinist way of life, which, since the end of the Second World War, would have led the country to a decisive rise in industry and agriculture. There was a lot of talk about this at home - veterans and young military men gathered at our place in the evenings, discussed everything that was happening in the country. I kept chuckling: a Greek neighbor collects household gossip, however, like everyone else, but at home there is a political circle of dissent. They discussed both Brezhnev and Andropov. They said about Gorbachev and Yeltsin: both scoundrels.

          I listened with the edge of my ear, but something was postponed, and even then I knew about the existence of individual farmers, according to the present - farmers (my grandmother was an individual farmer!), And Khrushchev destroyed them. And now I know that there were 3,5 million of them and they made a significant contribution to agricultural production. The loss of individual farmers turned out to be serious. To this was added the transition from payment for a workday with natural products, which stimulated the collective farmer to work as best as possible, because he could sell part of the production on the collective farm market and use this money to buy what was needed, and use part of it for the needs of the household farm. All this has lost its meaning. He showed up, noted, and then - whether you want to work or not, the workday is counted and paid poorly in the same way throughout the country, general drunkenness began, the erosion of the peasant conscience, responsibility, and with this - socialist ideology.
          And the socialist camp that had developed around the USSR as a protective belt demanded food handouts, like the cunning African pseudo-socialist regimes around the world.
          Life is short. Stalin did not have time. 8,7 million of his warrior followers were killed. "If I die, consider me a communist!" A generation of firm believers did not work out. The mentality has been strengthening for centuries. Well, at least a little more time! It seemed to the country that it had survived that war ... Yes, it had survived, but with an organ removed in the form of those who had gone to Slav. Khrushchev went to finish.
        2. kalibr
          6 December 2020 17: 52
          +4
          Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
          but he did exactly half of what Trotsky and Bukharin wanted. Forcing the industrialization of the country to the point of impossibility, at the expense of the peasants.

          Exactly! He is the main Trotskyist after Trotsky himself! Everything that he wrote about, Stalin did!
        3. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 7 December 2020 11: 40
          +4
          We can scold and vilify Stalin, but he did exactly half of what Trotsky and Bukharin wanted. Forcing the industrialization of the country to the point of impossibility, at the expense of the peasants. The excesses on the ground and at the top were terrible, the scythe of dispossession, hunger and repression touched every family in our country!

          Bukharin's open letter is generally a masterpiece. Moreover, in a good way! All that time he put into one piece. hi Here is an excerpt:
          ... There is some big and bold political idea of ​​a general cleansing a) in connection with the pre-war time, b) in connection with the transition to democracy. This purge captures a) the culprit, b) the suspicious, and c) the potentially suspicious. They couldn't do without me here.
          Everyone understood that the war would begin ... As one of the factors in the leadership's behavior, I think this should be taken into account ... Without justifying anyone in terms of excesses! stop
  • kalibr
    6 December 2020 07: 39
    +11
    Quote: Nazar
    not as a result of the betrayal of the "elite"

    So after all, the elites do not accidentally betray! There has not been an example in history that the elite gathered like this, threw themselves into cards, and even said - "Let's betray! But it's somehow boring!" It happens quite differently. Classics of the genre: Ieyasu Tokugawa all his life was engaged in betraying someone. He betrayed everyone in the end to whom he swore! For the sake of becoming a shogun. And he did!
    1. Nazar
      Nazar 6 December 2020 08: 12
      +3
      kalibr - Colleague, of course you are right, what kind of "accident" is there - years and years of work of our "partners" with these people (Yakovlev-Shevardnadz-Gorbachev, etc.). And of course there were objective prerequisites for their activities. But with a nationally oriented elite, this was all decided, an example of this - China, Vietnam - did not destroy the statehood, they reformed and are now developing rapidly, for the USSR this option was quite possible.
      The author will come out of his skin, he will write about the peasants, but at least about the Martians, just to prove that the USSR "had no chance."
      1. kalibr
        6 December 2020 08: 18
        +3
        Quote: Nazar
        The author will come out of his skin, he will write about the peasants, but at least about the Martians, just to prove that the USSR "had no chance."

        Not I will prove it to you, but the "Great Lenin" himself, and you yourself will come to this. As for China and Vietnam, I will add India, it will be about them ...
        1. Nazar
          Nazar 6 December 2020 08: 38
          +7
          kalibr - Colleague, it so happened that even at school I had a chance to seriously familiarize myself with the full collected works of VIL. And there, on any issue, one could find (in different works) mutually exclusive quotes. I brought our "political officer" for social science to a swoon. He has a quote from a manual, while mine is directly opposite in meaning from another work of the same Lenin.
          Therefore, "proving" something by referring to Lenin is not a rewarding occupation.
          And so, well, you have good material on the peasantry - publish it, we will read it with interest, in the USSR, then why spit? Or is it now a prerequisite for articles on any topic?
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 6 December 2020 09: 30
            +5
            And he does not know otherwise. Only with appropriate quotations from the classics - education does not allow himself to think.
            1. kalibr
              6 December 2020 10: 24
              -1
              Quote: Aviator_
              And he does not know otherwise. Only with appropriate quotations from the classics - education does not allow himself to think.

              It's still sad that you are stupid here, Sergei! However, everything is still ahead. There will be about quotes and much more. This is only the first material ...
              1. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 6 December 2020 11: 16
                +8
                It's still sad that you are stupid here, Sergei!

                What to do, the criteria of stupidity for a professional Marxist-Leninist and a physicist are different.
                1. kalibr
                  6 December 2020 12: 25
                  +2
                  Quote: Aviator_
                  What to do, the criteria of stupidity for a professional Marxist-Leninist and a physicist are different.

                  That's right, Sergei. But in order to judge something consistently, you need to do it. I don’t do physics and don’t judge about it. You are not engaged in historical-party science, but you judge about it. Don't you think that this is very common? "History can be learned!" But you can't! Until you work in the archives yourself, you will not get acquainted with documents, dissertation research in this area ... you will not be able to judge anything correctly. Until 1986 I also thought that our party stood "like a cliff". And I read the documents ... and the cliff is all loose ...
          2. kalibr
            6 December 2020 10: 22
            +2
            Quote: Nazar
            Therefore, "proving" something by referring to Lenin is not a rewarding occupation.

            You are not seriously familiar with the works of Lenin. Here's what I can say: you could show off in front of your political officer (crocodiles fly so low!). And I defended my dissertation on the part of the party leadership, and for 9 years I taught the history of the CPSU to evening parties and diaries. Is it clear why I emphasized the word "evening parties"? And one thing is a quote, another is his research based on documents. Do you see the difference or not?
          3. kalibr
            6 December 2020 10: 32
            -2
            Quote: Nazar
            in the USSR, then why spit?

            And I like it so much. I like it and that's it! Don't you like it? Write your submissions: "Glory, Glory, Hallelujah!" Or put + for articles about "red civilization" and "red emperor". Am I against?
            1. Nazar
              Nazar 6 December 2020 16: 28
              +7
              kalibr - so far I have put "pluses" to you, despite the obvious divergence of views.
              In 1991, I was 36 years old, quite an adult, determined in life person, but unlike you, I was not a communist and I didn’t have to bury your membership card in the garden.
              And about - "Hallelujah" - so this is from your former (Soviet) repertoire, I'm talking about the "glory of the KPSS" and other features of your then profession. Now you with the same passion spit on what you then praised. Well, yes, well, yes, now "to betray it and not to betray it at all, but to foresee." How many of you have changed your shoes in the air - and not count.
              I do not in any way idealize the USSR, but this is my Motherland and I have one, there is no "second homeland". Although for you this is most likely not the case.
              1. kalibr
                6 December 2020 17: 59
                +2
                Quote: Nazar
                I didn’t have to bury your membership card urgently in the garden.

                And why are these fantasies? Urgently, to bury ... there he lies in a box with papers. Memory all the same ... You know, such remarks do not speak about the mind of their author. Would you like to bring me some trouble? It will not be possible under any circumstances. They don't take offense at stupid anonymous ...
                Quote: Nazar
                Although for you this is most likely not the case.

                And one more fantasy, and a very stupid one. It would not be so, I would have left back in 91-92. But I think that we should try to make a comfortable life here for ourselves and for our children. Difficult, of course. Fools 80%, smart 20%. But this is "there" as well, because ... And yours are closer, clearer, easier with them ... Explained easily?
          4. Olgovich
            Olgovich 6 December 2020 11: 05
            -6
            Quote: Nazar
            well, do you have good material on the peasantry - publish it, read it with interest, in the USSR then why

            Russia in its grandeur, beauty, borders, character, culture - created by millennial labor civilization of Russian peasants... And the article is about them.

            The Russian peasantry was ruined and depopulated. deprived of resources, strength, fair social policy, fair prices, support, future - just look at disaster the heart of indigenous Russia - Non-Black Earth Region by the 1980s.

            And this is one of the reasons for the collapse.

            Auto is right and consistent.
            1. Aviator_
              Aviator_ 6 December 2020 11: 21
              +8
              Auto is right and consistent.

              About "rights" - this is your subjective opinion. And in his anti-Sovietism, the author is quite consistent, this is true.
              1. kalibr
                6 December 2020 12: 19
                0
                Quote: Aviator_

                As for the "rights" - this is your subjective opinion.

                But yours is always objective, isn't it?
            2. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 6 December 2020 15: 25
              +4
              In general, it is understandable. The USSR destroyed all the peasants. It remains to be regretted that pills for stupidity have not yet been invented.
              1. kalibr
                6 December 2020 16: 37
                +1
                Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                The USSR destroyed all the peasants.

                Not ... a vegetable garden you, Makar, do not understand. Not destroyed, although such a task was. Now we are performing this task. This class has outlived its own. Mission accomplished historically. There will be a replacement for him, whether you like it personally or not.
                1. IS-80_RVGK2
                  IS-80_RVGK2 6 December 2020 16: 44
                  +4
                  Is this incomprehensible to me? It's already funny. In contrast to those who believe in the inviolability of the holy hand of the market, I quite understand myself and more than well. That is why I am a communist.
                  1. kalibr
                    6 December 2020 16: 48
                    +1
                    Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                    That is why I am a communist.

                    I invite you to join the Organizing Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union of your city! By the way, what is your city? There, read the documents that were ... the communists are not newspaper ... and living people. And they took envelopes, and in ... they gave them, and ... they did a lot of things. Read your personal files. They were examined every month at the regional committee bureau. On one, new members were accepted, on the other, those who were in fault were expelled. Who got caught ... And who didn't - they continued to commune! And the goat understands that the market is not ideal. What's perfect? Was the scoop perfect?
                    1. IS-80_RVGK2
                      IS-80_RVGK2 6 December 2020 16: 51
                      +3
                      AND? Does this somehow cancel the laws of the development of human society? The historian offers me to be guided in the cognition of reality by emotions?
                    2. kalibr
                      6 December 2020 18: 05
                      +4
                      Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
                      The historian offers me to be guided in the cognition of reality by emotions?

                      Not at all. Documents - yes! Since when have emotions been stored in archives?
            3. Nazar
              Nazar 6 December 2020 16: 44
              0
              IS-80_RVGK2 (Makar) - Here you, Colleague, are a little behind technological progress - "pills for stupidity" have been invented and successfully applied. Caliber 9mm, or 7,62 is a matter of taste, one "pill" in the back of the head is enough and all the stupidity, as well as the tendency to betrayal, instantly disappears.
              And in vain the repainted political officers and undercut monarchists hope to avoid taking such pills. wassat
            4. Olgovich
              Olgovich 6 December 2020 17: 52
              -2
              Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
              In general, it is clear. The USSR destroyed all the peasants.

              By 1985 in the Non-Black Earth Region in 20 years destroyed 60 thousand villages out of 180 thousand, stood empty HALF MILLION residential buildings, the rural population has declined in just 15 years on 45%, the excess of deaths over births among them - from the late 1950s / early 1960s. 15 million hectares of land are abandoned and overgrown with forest. The disaster with schools, social programs, etc.

              Got it, no?
              Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
              It remains to be regretted that pills for stupidity have not yet been invented.

              Judging by the actions of your idols, they literally overate themselves ...
          5. BAI
            BAI 6 December 2020 16: 17
            +2
            support, the future is enough to look at the catastrophe of the heart of indigenous Russia - the Non-Black Earth Region by the 1980s.

            And where is the disaster? Where did the explosive growth of the urban population come from? Natural, for any industrial state, the process - people from the village go to the city. Where to get the workers' hands if not from the village? And life in the city is always better than in the countryside. Therefore, people go to the city, and the villages are dying out. As the industry develops, they become unnecessary. Soon the turn of small towns will come. Only megacities will remain. Also a disaster?
            1. IS-80_RVGK2
              IS-80_RVGK2 6 December 2020 16: 46
              +3
              Quote: BAI
              Soon the turn of small towns will come. Only megacities will remain.

              He has already come. Not certainly in that way. Agglomerations will remain.
            2. Olgovich
              Olgovich 6 December 2020 18: 11
              -3
              Quote: BAI
              And where is the disaster? Where did the explosive growth of the urban population come from? Natural, for any industrial state, the process - people from the village go to the city

              Given that the growth of the city ANYWHERE, except for you, did not mean the destruction and ruin of the peasantry and agriculture.

              By 1985, 20 thousand out of 60 thousand villages were destroyed in the Non-Black Soil Region in 180 years, HALF MILLION residential buildings were empty, the rural population in just 15 years decreased by 45%, the excess of deaths over births among it was from the late 1950s / early 1960s.

              15 million hectares of land abandoned and overgrown with forest... Most of the s / preproprofits are unprofitable, there is no money, there is no personnel, there is no mechanization (70% of the labor of livestock breeders is MANUAL!), The soils are depleted, waterlogged, the social sector is emergency and closed - schools have decreased by more than TWICE (10% WITHOUT ELECTRICITY by 1989!) , roads, materials, construction, etc.
              Quote: BAI
              Therefore, people go to the city,.

              But the fields are cultivated, the volume of production is growing, growing with / industry and processing associated with / household

              But this is not about yours.
          6. Nazar
            Nazar 6 December 2020 16: 36
            +5
            Olgovich (Andrey) - Colleague, has something changed for the better after the destruction of your so unloved country? Has it become easier for peasants over the past 30 years? The villages have ceased to die out? Or is it just the opposite - huh?
            The USSR is long gone, and the Russian village is dying, are the communists still to blame? So you are now reading an article written by a communist, though "changed shoes" on the fly.
            1. Olgovich
              Olgovich 6 December 2020 18: 25
              -5
              Quote: Nazar
              Colleague, what has changed for the better after the destruction of your so unloved country? Has it become easier for peasants over the past 30 years? The villages have ceased to die out? Or is it just the opposite - huh?
              The USSR is long gone, and the Russian village is dying, are the communists still to blame?

              belay

              Who's to blame? Martians? WITH WHOM you will order to build another village after their ts. "housekeeping" and devastating ruin? Maybe come to the graveyards of tens of thousands of villages abandoned with them and say: "That's it, Ivan, get up, finally, now you can work / earn money!"?

              Let them return that fantastically strong, the fastest growing, youngest, teetotal, seething with energy and thirst for work, thirsty for the earth people, which they captured in 1917.

              And there is no doubt that for 30 years after them everything would have been raised, populated and developed.

              You read the monograph by L.N. DENISOVA. - THE DISAPPEARING VILLAGE OF RUSSIA NON-BLACK EARTH IN THE 1960-1980s is impossible to read without tears!
              1. Nazar
                Nazar 7 December 2020 04: 22
                +1
                Olgovich - Colleague, you can write like this:
                - Let them return a country with a powerful science and the most educated people in the world, with a rapidly growing economy giving up to 20% of world GDP, a leading country in space and nuclear energy, and so on ... -
                Alas, they will not return. As well as will not return what you wrote about.
                Now the "former" communists who changed their shoes are in power, about the same as the author of this article. Under them, the village will simply be destroyed, as well as small towns - among these "rulers" it is now fashionable to drive everyone into twenty "agglomerations", and to conduct economic activities on a rotational basis in the rest of the territory. Compared to these cannibals, even the communists look pale. hi
                1. Olgovich
                  Olgovich 7 December 2020 08: 30
                  +1
                  Quote: Nazar
                  Olgovich - Colleague, you can write like this:
                  - Let them return a country with powerful science and the most educated people in the world, with a rapidly growing economy giving up to 20% of world GDP, a leading country in space and nuclear energy, and so on ...

                  Do not forget that at that leader, in the center of the country, emergency farms were drowned in manure, where the surviving retired milkmaids (there are no young people at all) in the cold, milked, fed and cleaned with their bare sore hands, where per year from hunger, exhaustion and disease the death rate of livestock was 12 million heads.
                  1. Nazar
                    Nazar 7 December 2020 18: 33
                    +1
                    Olgovich - Colleague, I’m not arguing with you, and even more so, I’m not going to persuade you. The catastrophe of the Russian village is a fact, to our deep regret. I'm a little bit about something else, I'm talking about the fact that now, when the USSR is gone for 30 years, has something changed for the better in this matter? In my opinion, it got even worse.
                  2. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 8 December 2020 10: 07
                    0
                    Quote: Nazar
                    ... I'm a little bit about something else, I'm talking about the fact that now, when the USSR is gone for 30 years now, has something changed for the better in this matter? In my opinion, it got even worse.

                    It's easy to destroy thousands of years of experience and achievements!

                    It is very, very difficult to create in place of the destroyed one.

                    The fact is that today NOBODY attaches serfs to the kolkhoz, makes them work almost free of charge on a "public" field and road, pay dues in the form of wild taxes on trees, chickens, bicycles, etc., does not dictate what to plant and does not take it by FORCE "surplus", does not force residents to leave their own house and village. Were the peasants of 1917, everything would bloom long ago!

                    But there are NO people! Where can I get them ?! All who were, escaped from the hell that was arranged, their descendants have long forgotten what peasant labor is.

                    By the way, back in owl times, farmers were resettled from the south to Ivanovo, Fvogodskaya oblast, everything failed ...

                    What we have, we do not store, having lost, we cry ...
                  3. Nazar
                    Nazar 8 December 2020 11: 03
                    0
                    Olgovich - What country did you write about this? Quote: "does not force the inhabitants out of their own homes and villages" - Do you know of an attempt to march to Moscow on the tractors of Rostov farmers? People tried to convey to the Kremlin exactly information about how they were being deprived of their land, and in the end they lost not only their land, but also their freedom. Tsapki in the Krasnodar Territory did not deprive anyone of land - eh? Did not the "golden" judge Khakhalova hunt for land squeezing? The largest landowner in K.Krai is the family of the former Minister of Agriculture (he is also the former governor of the region) - where did he get the land from?
                  4. Olgovich
                    Olgovich 8 December 2020 11: 58
                    0
                    Quote: Nazar
                    Olgovich - What country did you write about this? Quote: "does not force the inhabitants out of their own homes and villages" - Do you know of an attempt to march to Moscow on the tractors of Rostov farmers? People tried to convey to the Kremlin exactly information about how they were being deprived of their land, and in the end they lost not only their land, but also their freedom. Tsapki in the Krasnodar Territory did not deprive anyone of land - eh? Did not the "golden" judge Khakhalova hunt for land squeezing? The largest landowner in K.Krai is the family of the former Minister of Agriculture (he is also the former governor of the region) - where did he get the land from?

                    About the last country, of course, where it was STATE POLICY... Its result is tens of million hectares of EMPTY fertile land overgrown with weeds!

                    Let me remind you that just a hundred years ago, people there KILLED each other for every piece of her, and today, after the last power, she to nobody NEED NOT! Brought the peasants and the desire to work
          7. kalibr
            7 December 2020 10: 09
            +2
            Quote: Nazar
            the most educated people in the world

            Judging by the comments on VO, this was far from the case!
            1. Nazar
              Nazar 7 December 2020 18: 46
              0
              kalibr - Now this is my third visit to VO. Twice before that I received a marshal's shoulder strap (under a different nickname, of course) and left "for a break."
              I can say from my own experience - eight years ago the level of communication here was completely different, but simply the elementary literacy of messages was an order of magnitude higher than what we see now.
              "The process is underway", the process of moronization, and this is not only my opinion, (the opinion of an ordinary Soviet engineer), this is what Academician Kapitsa wrote a few years ago:
              “The VTsIOM data indicate that we have finally come to what we have been striving for all these 15 years, - we have brought up the country of idiots. If Russia continues to follow the same course, then in another ten years there will be no more of those who today at least occasionally pick up a book. And we will get a country that will be easier to rule, from which it will be easier to suck natural resources. But this country has no future! "
            2. kalibr
              7 December 2020 20: 47
              +1
              Quote: Nazar
              If Russia continues to follow the same course, then in another ten years there will be no more of those who today at least occasionally pick up a book.

              So, Igor ... It was the most reading and literate country in the world? Your darling "scoop" ... So why didn't these same readers pass on their skills and love for reading to their offspring? It fell apart not a century ago. Could ... Or were they expecting an uncle to come or a teacher to teach you to love a book? What do they say in Dagestan? "Where there are no good youth there were no good old people!" V-o-from! Why doesn't my granddaughter know the taste of Coca-Cola? And much more? They didn’t give, they explained that it was harmful. And they read books ... And the "historical new community of people", as the whip was gone, so its entire culture fell. It was all superficial, that's what ... And our country has a future. Already not bad, but it will be even better. I remembered how I went to the doctors with a scoop, how terribly they treated me. And now - an hour and all kinds of tests and excellent medications. Everything is the same as in other normal countries. And it will be like this: the drivers and a more or less well-fed herd, which doesn't really need anything more! So in all developed countries, I know, I have seen, and so it will be with us ...
            3. Nazar
              Nazar 7 December 2020 21: 14
              -1
              kalibr - Just don't talk about doctors - I've been waiting for an ultrasound scan for more than a month, and before that I was almost sent to a tomograph (MRI) and the doctor was holding pictures of my back in his hands ... belay An MRI is a microwave oven, this doctor wanted to make a "grill" out of me. I waited two weeks for the blood test results and received them only when my wife phoned the Minister of Health. okr. our republic - and there is no other way with medicine. Because your enthusiasm for the current "medicine" - I just perceive it as a mockery. I could write a lot about today's doctors, but you can't use obscenities, but you can't do without a mat.
              Kapitsa wrote that such a country does not have a future for a reason - one of the education ministers openly stated - our task is to train not creators, but qualified
              consumers. And they succeeded. Is Kapitsa not an authority for you? Forgive me, but there is every reason to trust the academician's opinion, but what are the reasons to trust your fantasies?
            4. kalibr
              8 December 2020 05: 36
              +2
              And at which clinic are you waiting in line? In the state? Well, blame yourself. I am on a paid basis. Center MEDICLINICS. Uzi - came - passed! CT scan - well, yes, the influx is large, you need to wait 2-3 days. Blood test - I did it yesterday, I'll get it today. Good health is never free! Is this accessible to your understanding? So wait further ... And Kapitsa ... authority why. Only he watched from his soviet bell tower and probably, like you, went to the state clinic! Out of habit ...
            5. kalibr
              8 December 2020 05: 38
              0
              Quote: Nazar
              Therefore, your enthusiasm for the current "medicine" - I just perceive it as a mockery.

              I wrote you the truth ...
        2. kalibr
          7 December 2020 20: 49
          +2
          Quote: Nazar
          received a marshal's shoulder strap

          Sorry, Igor, but you didn't make the marshal's epaulettes more profound and erudite at VO. Alas, quantity did not translate into quality!
        3. Nazar
          Nazar 8 December 2020 08: 06
          0
          kalibr - Well, how can I go from an ordinary Soviet engineer to a scientific "elite" - a teacher of the history of the CPSU laughing .
          In reality, your specialty in universities was considered the most useless, in general, in my first year, I simply did not attend any class on the history of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, at the end of the year I came, passed the exam, and that's it. This did not stop me from becoming a bad engineer. And as you were the "fifth wheel in the cart", you continue to remain at the same level.
          Life has been lived and it is already possible to sum up some results: I am a builder and spent most of my life on construction sites, what will remain after me is what I built in more than 40k years -
          dozens of residential buildings, a stadium, schools, hospitals, kindergartens and much more, all of this will be used by people many years after I leave.
          I know why I lived and what I will leave behind for people.
          What will you leave behind? Useless scribble that people forget 15 minutes after reading? Nothing to say, a worthy result of a useless life.
        4. kalibr
          8 December 2020 08: 39
          +1
          Look how he kicks you, Igor. But you are round ... God forgive me. I am left with 40 books, not nameless houses that you did not build alone, but books that do not burn. On which more than one generation of children in the USSR grew up, who determined the life choice of many people even here on VO - they wrote about this, by the way, in the comments. Take a look at any children's library for fun. They are so many. And children should be brought up on good books. The fact that someone built a house for them - they need it. Well, there is no history of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union since 91, why remember it? By the way, returning to the topic of the polyclinic ... Or maybe you just miser and you feel sorry for 500 rubles. spend on a blood test at a paid clinic? Or are you so poor? But our builders have always made good money ...
        5. Nazar
          Nazar 8 December 2020 09: 49
          0
          kalibr - "lifted" just you. They are even ready to cross out half of their lives - a quote: "Well, there is no history of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union since 91, why remember it?"
          "Children's Libraries"? Do children know what it is? I am forced to repeat part of Kapitsa's quote: "- there will be no more of those who today at least occasionally pick up a book. -" so all your writings are "past the box office."
          And it is certainly only because of the fact that it was you who "lifted" you could write this - a quote: "The fact that someone built a house for them - why do they need it." laughing Of course - why do people need housing, hospitals and schools, all this will replace them with your literary creations? I haven't laughed like that for a long time.
          I am retired, but I can quite afford not only paid medicine, the trouble is that here, where I live (5000 km from Moscow), those doctors work in paid medicine who, for one reason or another, flew out of the state. honey. institutions that is - absolutely "sucks". More or less qualified doctors do not stay here - they leave mainly for Moscow. So people with very serious illnesses go to other regions of the country for treatment.
        6. kalibr
          8 December 2020 10: 28
          0
          Quote: Nazar
          "Children's Libraries"? And the children know what it is

          Come in and see. They know me in Penza. As you do not know where you live ...
          In order to make you a blood test, high qualifications are not needed. So tell me that the toad is strangling. Or it doesn't really hurt that they agree to wait a month. Ultrasound also does not require high qualifications. In addition, even among the bad ones there are those that are not very bad ... You just don't need to be greedy! As for what you ... we have already decided, and you stress this again. The house is needed, of course. But he is ANONYMAN. Or there is an inscription on it - "Built by Igor ...." It is elementary, in my opinion, to figure this out, eh? But on the books it is. So laugh further.
        7. Nazar
          Nazar 8 December 2020 11: 15
          0
          kalibr - We are different people, you are "warm" by your name written on the cover, but I am just satisfied with the anonymity of my work that you noticed.
          There is such a saying - the one who does good and then shouts everywhere: I did this - half devalues ​​what was done, and what was done unknown - doubles. hi
        8. kalibr
          8 December 2020 11: 28
          0
          You are a strange person, Igor. You live with some kind of illusion, and in order to donate blood to your wife you have to call the ministry. And it surprises me that you do not know what people in Ancient Egypt already knew. Here is the TEACHING OF AHTOY, SON OF DUAUF, TO HIS SON PIOPI
          "I am telling you about the builder of the walls. The disease is experienced, because he is constantly outside, left to the winds. He builds with clothes, while his belt is on the lotuses at home. His strength has disappeared, his hands are like lifeless from working on stone. His clothes are all .." He eats the bread of his fingers, and he washes [only] once. He is more pitiful than ... on the lotuses at home, doing all his work. And as for the contentment, he gives it home. His children are beaten, beaten. " ...
          The lesson dates from the era of the Middle Kingdom. The text (with small abbreviations) is given according to the edition: Reader on the History of the Ancient East. Part I, M., 1980, p. 39-42. Translation by O.D. Berlev,
          And here's what about the letter: “As for the letter, it is sweeter than the delight of the heart [by offering] a basket with delicacies [...] and horns. It is sweeter than the joy of a mother who has given birth, whose heart is not tired and [who] is strong, feeding her son, in whose mouth is her breast every day. The heart of the scribe is joyful, it grows younger every day. "
          Of course, changes are obvious, yes, there are all kinds of scientific and technological revolution, taps. But the essence remains the same, it is the same. My son-in-law is a construction crane operator. So everything is as before, only with some amendments. It is clear that you don’t need anything, but I don’t want to convince you of anything, especially since your favorite "scoop" still gave an oak tree, but so, to increase your general erudition - read ...
        9. Nazar
          Nazar 8 December 2020 20: 37
          0
          kalibr - Vyacheslav, well, you don't get tired of making me laugh smile Egypt - yes? Millions of tourists from all over the world come to Egypt to get acquainted with ... the writings of AHTOY, SON OF DUAUF - isn't it?
          Or do people come to see and admire the work of those very nameless Egyptian builders who created one of the wonders of the world - eh?
          The pyramids are known all over the world, and Akhtoy's text is of no interest to anyone, except for a narrow circle of specialists.
          Yes, and yet - it turns out to be the phrase - "if you don't want to listen to dad and mom, you will listen to the factory beep" - for more than one thousand years, how wassat
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 8 December 2020 11: 17
    +1
    Quote: Nazar
    Life has been lived and it is already possible to sum up some results: I am a builder and spent most of my life on construction sites, what will remain after me is what I built in more than 40k years -
    dozens of residential buildings, a stadium, schools, hospitals, kindergartens and much more, all of this will be used by people many years after I leave.

    He worked as a builder for 42 years and built, I think, no less than yours. And at this time, millions of idlers of the past system received the money I had earned in the form of unearned wages in countless central committees, paradise-ob-obl, res-part-professional coma. Not understanding anything, they commanded, distributed and "built". The result of their "construction" is the catastrophe of Russian indigenous Russia, the entire state, devastation and the Russian cross.

    They completely went bankrupt judging by their results
    Quote: Nazar
    I know what I lived for

    We, like everyone else, work to earn a living, for a piece of bread.

    And we live in order to raise and educate children, and now grandchildren as smart, conscientious, decent educated people and - worthy citizens and patriots

    As for the lower level of commenting at the end of 8 years (I have been here for a long time too): so the audience BY AGE has not changed, practically, still Soviet education!

    So what are the reasons other- many have left, etc. .....
  • kalibr
    8 December 2020 11: 31
    +1
    Quote: Olgovich
    millions of idlers of the past system received the money I had earned in the form of unearned wages in countless central committees, rai-ob-obl, res-ppart-professional coma.

    Here! We were underpaid, but we were paid "right". And the "necessary" ones ... failed when it was necessary - ha ha!
  • BAI
    BAI 6 December 2020 16: 11
    +5
    in the USSR, then why spit?

    And here we go into the field of psychology. Like Maugham says: "We are all looking for noble, lofty motives to justify our actions." The end of the phrase - "both vile and base for describing the actions of their opponents", but this ending does not interest us now. Political chameleonism is always and everywhere a matter of little respect, almost synonymous with betrayal. And any traitor always says: "It is not me who is bad, because I betrayed, but the one whom I betrayed is bad, so I am good and did the right thing." This is a simple self-justification. Everything else is a lie, no matter how high phrases are covered.
    1. kalibr
      6 December 2020 16: 52
      0
      I have known for a long time that it was I who destroyed the entire USSR. And all the communists did not come out to defend him precisely at my behest. And then he drank to the success of the aforementioned business!
      1. BAI
        BAI 6 December 2020 19: 39
        +2
        And I thought that you, as a historian, would use the example of St. George the Victorious.
        1. kalibr
          7 December 2020 10: 11
          0
          Quote: BAI
          And I thought that you, as a historian, would use the example of St. George the Victorious.

          We have no place for complex analogies here. It's simpler: "Did I ruin the chapel too?" This is both clearer and more accessible!
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 6 December 2020 10: 27
    +4
    ... But the USSR had a foundation of historical justice. Not a single state has set itself such a good goal as the prosperity of the entire people and each person in particular.

    Do not confuse warm with soft!
    Until the age of 24, the work of Karl Marx, who wrote that first there should be a world revolution of the proletariat, and then the building of communism, hindered a good goal. And in the industrially developed world of workers. The peasants fell out of this concept a little.
    Stalin was the first to say about the building of socialism in one state, God forbid, memory, it seems in 1925. He also supported Bukharin, who put his stake on the peasantry. The only trouble is that the forecasts did not come true either 25 or 26. Then it began, what began.
    1. bubalik
      bubalik 6 December 2020 11: 51
      +10
      The peasants fell out of this concept a little.

      ,,, were considered enemies.
      "Our task in relation to the small peasants," wrote Engels, "is, first of all, to convert their private production, their property into comradeship." (K. Marx, F. Engels. T. 32: 518).
      The peasants could be the ally of the proletariat in
      socialist revolution only if they cease to believe in
      peasant property. Until this happens, “small peasants are
      the most ardent owners and sworn enemies of everything that gives
      communism "
      (K. Marx, F. Engels. T. 27: 106).
      1. kalibr
        6 December 2020 12: 29
        +7
        Sergei! Thanks! I was looking for this phrase for the next article ... and here you give it to me on a platter with a border! Thanks!
        1. depressant
          depressant 6 December 2020 14: 58
          +4
          Vyacheslav Olegovich, do you have insider information or did the instinct of a researcher work?))) In this regard, I ask myself the question: is it coming soon? Bearing in mind the planned land reform. And is it not because of this that Chubais was shifted to a sinecure, which allows him to spend a significant part of his time abroad, and which, for this reason, cannot be defined otherwise than as a means of protecting Chubais from the farmer’s, and not only farmer’s, anger. Putin does not give up his own!
          Colleagues, you have forgotten, and many do not even know, that vouchers were handed out not only to workers as the right to own part of production, but also to collective farmers - to land. Earlier it was announced that the planned land reform would build on the land voucher carried out by Chubais.
          Taking into account the fact that some of the vouchers were bought from the recipients, some of the recipients did not come for them, and some came and keeps them to this day, it is difficult even to imagine the political and economic consequences of the land reform in our country.
          Indeed, if a plant can be bankrupted and over time it will collapse, turning into ruins that cannot be restored, then the land, previously arable, and now overgrown with forest, is still of great value due to its indestructibility. And if arable? The farmer bought it, taking a loan, invested his soul and labor ... Well, and so on. Who sold? Did he have the right? Dozens of questions. And then the true owner appears with a bundle of vouchers in his hands.
          1. kalibr
            6 December 2020 16: 02
            +1
            The logic of events suggests ...
          2. BAI
            BAI 6 December 2020 16: 23
            +3
            but also to the collective farmers - to the land. Earlier it was announced that the planned land reform would build on the land voucher carried out by Chubais.
            Taking into account the fact that some of the vouchers were bought from the recipients, some of the recipients did not appear for them, and some appeared and keeps them to this day,

            All the land received under the vouchers has long been overbought and sold out. I witnessed a conversation between two officials at the land committee of the Aleksandrovsky district of the Vladimir region: "There is no more free land in the district. You can leave." 2010 year.
            What voucher-based reform?
            1. depressant
              depressant 6 December 2020 18: 23
              +5
              Colleague BAI, I am not the author of the reform))) I can only repeat what was said by officials of a higher rank than the regional ones, moreover, in public, and not in conversations with each other. I believe that the delay in reform is happening not only and not so much because of the coronavirus, but because of our rather empty state treasury - any reform costs money. When the global economic crisis rages outside the window, the treasury of many countries is empty.
              Yes, that was what you are talking about. In the 90s, and then in the 10s, a huge amount of land was bought up by the rich. The question is: how rich? On what grounds? Who sold it and by what law? It's like Perestoika - "Take it!" They began to undertake, and they were jailed, the enterprises were shut down - they "forgot" to issue laws regulating the activity!
              So it will be now. We already have a bureaucratic aristocracy that wants to have, perhaps, just the very latifundia that have gone to no one knows who. And if you think that all the lands are sold out, then it is not so. There will be a fight for the land.
              Just a note:

              The total area of ​​the land fund in Russia is 1712,5 million hectares
              Of these, forest lands - 1126,3 million hectares
              Agricultural land 383,2 million hectares
              Reserve lands - 89,3 million hectares
              Specially protected areas - 47,7 million hectares
              Water fund - 28,1 million hectares
              Under settlements - 20,4 million hectares
              For industry and special purposes - 17,4 million hectares

              Only 125 million hectares of 383,2 million hectares of agricultural land are used - think about it!
              And the abandoned village - to whom does it belong? Municipality or private trader? What about an abandoned military unit? A destroyed plant - who owns the land under its often rather vast territory? And the land of dying northern cities? I assure you, as soon as the reform begins, there will be disputes.
              1. BAI
                BAI 6 December 2020 19: 47
                +3
                1.
                And the abandoned village - to whom does it belong? Municipality or private trader?
                To the municipality.
                2.
                What about an abandoned military unit?
                Ministry of Defense.
                3.
                A destroyed factory - who owns the land under its often rather large area?
                Assignee. Recently I came across a photo report about the Vladimir Tractor Plant. Well, absolutely in the subject.
                4.
                And the land of dying northern cities?
                - a commercially unattractive asset. Land is needed if there are people. What is the value of land in a deserted area? We believe that there are no minerals on it.
                1. depressant
                  depressant 6 December 2020 20: 54
                  +5
                  In Central Russia, an abandoned village, a deceased enterprise, and a long-forgotten destroyed military facility can be located in one space. Nature is extremely beautiful, we have it like that. And just imagine, a large military rank, a civilian deputy, who bought a letter about dvorany, and at the same time a family tree from Mr. Zakatov, the secretary of the Imperial Royal House, as well as the head of the local administration, laid eyes on the territory with three objects that had gone into oblivion. What will be the argument, eh? Only fluff and feathers will fly!))) And it will be completely bad if on the way there is a farm on the territory, quite prosperous for itself, and several quite living households with some old women. And there will be many such situations. After all, our ruling class does not hide its desire for feudal lords.
                  So the question arises: what will the land reform bring us? The fathers of the nation, smiling condescendingly, say: do not be afraid, we will not touch the private owner. But when they say so, then, given their habit of deceiving, which has turned into an unconditioned reflex, there is serious doubt about the successful outcome of the reform for ordinary citizens.
            2. Lynx2000
              Lynx2000 7 December 2020 02: 22
              +1
              Quote: BAI
              All the land received under the vouchers has long been overbought and sold out. I witnessed a conversation between two officials at the land committee of the Aleksandrovsky district of the Vladimir region: "There is no more free land in the district. You can leave." 2010 year.
              What voucher-based reform?

              I don’t remember that my grandfathers allocated land and property shares from the state farm on vouchers, rather on the following grounds:
              "Clause 9 of the Decree of the Government of the Russian Federation of December 29.12.1991, 86 N XNUMX" On the procedure for reorganizing collective farms and state farms "provided for the right of collective farm members and state farm workers to free land and property shares in common shared ownership.
              According to clause 8 of the Regulation on the reorganization of collective farms, state farms and the privatization of state agricultural enterprises, approved by Decree of the Government of the Russian Federation of 04.09.1992 N 708 and developed on the basis of Decree of 27.12.1991 N 323, in each reorganized collective farm and state farm, individual property shares and land share.
              Based on clause 5 of the Decree of the President of the Russian Federation of October 27.10.1993, 1767 N 27.10.1993 "On the regulation of land relations and the development of agrarian reform in Russia" (hereinafter - Decree of October 1767, 25.01.1999 N XNUMX) in the edition that was in effect until XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX, each member of the agricultural collective an enterprise to which the land belongs on the basis of the right of common joint or common shared ownership was issued a certificate of ownership of the land in the form approved by this Decree, with the definition of the area of ​​the land share (share) without allocation in kind.
              According to paragraph 4 of the Decree of the President of the Russian Federation of 07.03.1996/337/07.03.1996 N 337 "On the implementation of the constitutional rights of citizens to land" (hereinafter - Decree of XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX N XNUMX), the owner of a land share without the consent of other participants in shared ownership has the right to: transfer the land share by inheritance; use a land share (with the allocation of a land plot in kind) for running a peasant (farm) and personal subsidiary plots; sell a land share; donate a land share; exchange a land share for a property share or land share in another farm; transfer a land share (with the allocation of a land plot in kind) for rent to peasant (farmer) households, agricultural organizations, citizens for running a personal subsidiary farm; to transfer a land share on the terms of an annuity agreement and life support; to contribute a land share or the right to use this share to the authorized capital or share fund of an agricultural organization. "

              The problem is that not everyone was allocated a land plot from the joint, shared ownership of an agricultural enterprise. Didn't know how to do it. Those who allocated became the owners of the land. plot with records and registration in the Cadastre.
              The majority, while continuing to work in an agricultural enterprise, formally possessed the right to their share (share) of the land not allocated in kind (impersonal). Currently, in the register of the Cadastre, they are not the rightholders or owners of the land. Their heirs, unlike the holders of the allocated shares, cannot inherit anonymized shares.
              Agricultural enterprises are obliged to cultivate plots of agricultural land only on the grounds of ownership or lease.
              The participant of the unallocated share, who quit / deceased, reduces the amount of land of the agricultural enterprise.
              "Shrewd" speculators with connections in the land. committees of district administrations and regional cadastral services receive information about land. plots for agricultural purposes are "issued" for a long-term lease. Then they transfer the right to rent at favorable prices ...
          3. Lynx2000
            Lynx2000 6 December 2020 21: 51
            +2
            Quote: depressant

            Colleagues, you have forgotten, and many do not even know, that vouchers were handed out not only to workers as the right to own part of production, but also to collective farmers - to land. Earlier it was announced that the planned land reform would build on the land voucher carried out by Chubais.
            Taking into account the fact that some of the vouchers were bought from the recipients, some of the recipients did not come for them, and some came and keeps them to this day, it is difficult even to imagine the political and economic consequences of the land reform in our country.
            Indeed, if a plant can be bankrupted and over time it will collapse, turning into ruins that cannot be restored, then the land, previously arable, and now overgrown with forest, is still of great value due to its indestructibility. And if arable? The farmer bought it, taking a loan, invested his soul and labor ... Well, and so on. Who sold? Did he have the right? Dozens of questions. And then the true owner appears with a bundle of vouchers in his hands.

            Earlier, in the early 1990s, state farm participants were allocated shares (now they are registered) in the form of two land plots, one arable and the second for haymaking, upon leaving, and it was also possible to receive agricultural machinery or implements. Were hereditary.
            The current members of the state farm had an impersonal share, i.e. formally they were the owners of two land plots (plowing and mowing) but not registered in the Cadastre as owners. In the event of the death of a participant or withdrawal from the state farm, if such a share was not previously registered, the state farm (an agricultural enterprise on its basis of the SHP) cannot currently use the land plot without confirmation of the right: ownership, lease.
            Therefore, now many agricultural land plots are not being processed, because The cadastre controls the use rights. Fines for violations of such land use are not small.
            Not all agricultural producers have enough time, experience and funds to register such land plots.
        2. IS-80_RVGK2
          IS-80_RVGK2 6 December 2020 15: 31
          +2
          Interestingly, you will also manipulate this quote as the legal features of the land of feudal France in relation to the peasants?
          1. kalibr
            6 December 2020 16: 02
            +1
            Quote: IS-80_RVGK2
            Interestingly, you will also manipulate this quote as the legal features of the land of feudal France in relation to the peasants?

            Of course!
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 6 December 2020 14: 44
        +3
        Good afternoon Sergey, although you have already evening!
        On principle, I did not quote.
        Regards, Vlad!
  • Fat
    Fat 6 December 2020 14: 27
    +4
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Nazar
    not as a result of the betrayal of the "elite"

    So after all, the elites do not accidentally betray! There has not been an example in history that the elite gathered like this, threw themselves into cards, and even said - "Let's betray! But it's somehow boring!" It happens quite differently. Classics of the genre: Ieyasu Tokugawa all his life was engaged in betraying someone. He betrayed everyone in the end to whom he swore! For the sake of becoming a shogun. And he did!

    Winston Churchill was also a "good and cheerful" person in terms of betrayal ...
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 7 December 2020 12: 18
    0
    For the sake of becoming a shogun. And he did!

    He also won the Battle of Sehigahara as a result of betrayal - already, however, someone else's. wink At the same time, it seems, serving the master was considered the highest virtue among the samurai ... wassat Henry VII Tudor won the Battle of Bosworth Field in the same way! hi "A horse, a horse, half a kingdom for a horse!" - shouted surrounded Richard III ... fellow
  • Bar1
    Bar1 6 December 2020 10: 12
    +2
    Was the division of socio-economic formations according to Marx a natural and logical way of human development? Now, possessing some previously unknown facts about how people lived in former times, we can say that this "natural" way of mankind
    -primary community
    -feudalism
    -capitalism
    -socialism / communism.
    by no means a natural way, but a way of coercion as a result of a war between a society with collective ownership of the means of production and a private property, huckster's, predatory form of society management, alien to mankind.
    An example of collective property is the society of Russia, and not some kind of "ancient" one, but examples from the 16-17 century.
    What are these facts? And these are letters - memoirs or reports of foreign ambassadors.
    -Adama Olearius.
    -Juan the Persian
    -Paul Alepsky
    -Francheso Tiepolo
    -Perkamoto
    -Weight
    All these authors argued that Russian society does not just live prosperously, but most importantly, there is no difference between the nobility and ordinary peasants. Peasant women can be dressed in the same clothes as the boyars and wear jewelry that the nobility has. And this is so: there is a wonderful lecture by Alexander Vlaimirovich Pyzhikov "On pearl production in Russia and who the mermaids were"
    where he says that there were a lot of pearls in Russia: here is a real researcher of the past and not from textbooks for the 6th grade.
    And such wealth and prosperity could exist only if the Russian society did not live according to the laws that Marx describes with his "formations".
    1. kalibr
      6 December 2020 10: 26
      +1
      Quote: Bar1
      And such wealth and prosperity could exist only if Russian society lived in a completely different way from what Marx describes with his "formations".

      And where is this society and all these round pearls with scarlet caftans?
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 6 December 2020 10: 50
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        And where is this society and all these round pearls with scarlet caftans?


        pearls are pitched, not round. These are pearls / pearls of very high quality, when if the pearl rolled, then the surface was not even.

        As for that early society. It remained in the 16-17 centuries according to this chronology. And there was a huge war, the echoes of which have reached us in the form of "peasant riots" by Bolotnikov, Bogdan Khmelnitsky, Razin, Pugachev. Strelets riots, Rusko-Turkish wars, wars of 1812 , wars of conquest of Middle Asia and any suppression of the Ichentuan in China and many other wars. This was one GENERAL war of the previous civilization based on collective property and aliens, those who profess individualism and private property.
        By the way, many dilapidated buildings of the past (temples, aqueducts, etc.) belong precisely to a society based on collective / socialist principles, and modern civilization is a society of inequality and thoughtless consumption and exploitation of people and nature, which cannot be repeated by either pyramids or aqueducts. not a single stone structure of the past, which stood for "thousands" of years according to this chronology. But it can lie, as, for example, with Stonehenge, which was built in 1954.
        1. kalibr
          6 December 2020 11: 13
          +5
          Quote: Bar1
          which was built in 1954.

          It's strange. One of his first graphic images dates back to 1645.

          Then there were many of them, but here is another image of 1807 ...
          This is from the "Antiquities of Britain" album.
          And now 1923: a cartoon in the Radio Times

          After all, there was no him, but everyone draws, prints cartoons ...
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 6 December 2020 11: 28
            -1
            Quote: kalibr
            It's strange. One of his first graphic images dates back to 1645.

            HUNDRED TIMES have already written here and not only me.
            What is this?



            film directed by Elkhov Stonehenge.

            [media = https: //ok.ru/video/35115698899]
            1. kalibr
              6 December 2020 12: 05
              +3
              Yes, I wanted to piss on your photos and films of Elkhov. In 1645 THERE WAS NO CONCRETE STILL and Elkhov had not yet been born, and in 1807, and in 1923 Radio Times there was no point in printing a caricature of something that is not! Then there was no photo and people drew what was in front of their eyes. There are messages about him in the chronicles, there are a lot of things. And the number of idiots who wrote 100 or more times has always exceeded and exceeds the number of normal and educated people. Why else is it no longer communism in our country? That is why!
              1. Bar1
                Bar1 6 December 2020 12: 26
                +1
                Quote: kalibr
                Yes, I wanted to urinate on your photos and films of Elkhov. IN

                the answer of a cultured person.
                there is an anecdote on this occasion.
                congress of pog_ists gathered
                the correspondent asks for an interview.
                -Yes, please.
                -What do you think about domestic politics?
                -What a fuck about internal politics.
                -How do you feel about women?
                -And fucking women.
                -So, how do you feel about money?
                - Oh, money is yes, money is everything.
                - What about your principles?
                -And the principles.
                so do you.
                -And what about the photo, where the concrete base is clearly visible?
                -A FSU_ concrete base, the main picture of the type 18-19 century.
                and here's another movie about stonehenge, also fucking?

                1. kalibr
                  6 December 2020 13: 45
                  +2
                  Quote: Bar1
                  -And the concrete base

                  That's it!
                2. depressant
                  depressant 6 December 2020 19: 47
                  +3
                  Colleague Bar1, thanks for the interesting film!
                  Yes, it could be that way. And it could have turned out differently. Stonehenge has been around for a long time, the military has inadvertently lined up nearby, they damaged something, they had to restore, correct it according to their own understanding.
                  For example, I happened to read about how in Moscow the mayor's office sold historic houses to the rich on the condition that they would restore them, so even Mikhalkov was indignant: the restoration turned into remakes.
                  1. Bar1
                    Bar1 6 December 2020 21: 36
                    +2
                    Quote: depressant
                    Colleague Bar1, thanks for the interesting film!

                    I gave a link to two films.
                    So much for British science, and after all, it was they who laid the first Sanskrit dictionaries and the history of India was written by the British, and much of the "first" was created by the British. But, as in the case of Stonehenge, you can talk about British science, a Russian proverb fits well here.
                    - Once you've lied, who will believe you?
                    1. depressant
                      depressant 6 December 2020 22: 25
                      +2
                      Well, so the expression "British scientists" has become a household name, isn't it?)))
                      In addition, history is a science that is not only the most suitable for manipulating public consciousness, but also in demand in this capacity. And since history is often based on archaeological facts, I would not be surprised if archeology also participates in dirty political games on a par with history.
                      Try it, manipulate the law of universal gravitation, and it will attach the manipulator to the ground))) Therefore, there are relatively exact sciences that are not an argument in the dispute about the antiquity of the origin of the ruling dynasty, but there is a history to which it would be nice to attach a suitable archaeological artifact)))
                      As for me, I just love ancient stones and am ready to admire them tirelessly, exhausting their social usefulness.
                    2. Bar1
                      Bar1 7 December 2020 00: 37
                      0
                      Quote: depressant
                      Try it, manipulate the law of gravity, and it will put the manipulator on the ground

                      how did you find a weak spot in science. The fact is that the law of universal gravitation is also manipulated. For example, the gravitational constant, which is present in this law, appeared in the law not from its author, Newton, and not from Cavendish, who discovered the gravitation of masses, but UNKNOWN where. Watch the video of the naturalist Vadim Lovchikov. The narration is a little frivolous, but the content is more than serious.

                    3. vadimtt
                      vadimtt 7 December 2020 13: 47
                      +2
                      Oh, so we will soon reach the Faraday tubes and the luminiferous ether, and there N. Tesla looks out from behind the cabinet drinks
          2. saigon
            saigon 6 December 2020 12: 39
            +6
            Vyacheslav concrete was invented in ancient Rome, but after the technology they lost, and do not pay attention to the adherents of the new chronology, it is not possible to convince
            1. Bar1
              Bar1 6 December 2020 12: 46
              0
              Quote: saigon
              Vyacheslav concrete was invented in ancient Rome, but after the technology they lost, and do not pay attention to the adherents of the new chronology, it is not possible to convince

              maybe the Etruscans came up with?
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 6 December 2020 14: 52
                +4
                Quote: Bar1
                maybe the Etruscans invented


                No Greeks!
                In your case, Timur is the result of the restoration carried out by the British in the middle of the last century, following the results of excavations.
                Guides bring tourists to this stone and tell how and why they did it.
                Although why am I crucifying if you want to believe in "nonsense" - believe it !!!
              2. saigon
                saigon 6 December 2020 18: 27
                +3
                At the expense of the Etruscans, I did not come across, but in Rome they knew concrete (Let's immediately stipulate concrete, it is not reinforced concrete)
                Likewise, the construction of the roadway after the collapse of Rome was lost for many centuries, most likely due to unnecessary use.
                On the territory of Russia there are structures similar to Stonehenge, there are the same on the territory of Kazakhstan.
              3. Aviator_
                Aviator_ 6 December 2020 21: 57
                +1
                maybe the Etruscans came up with?

                What are you Etruscans? Naturally, the Sumerians.
            2. kalibr
              6 December 2020 13: 47
              +5
              Quote: saigon
              Vyacheslav concrete was invented in ancient Rome

              Thank you, Victor! But here concrete was more important in England in 1645. Did not know!
          3. bk0010
            bk0010 6 December 2020 22: 20
            +1
            IN 1645 THERE WAS NO CONCRETE STILL
            The ancient Romans (opus caementicium) still had concrete.
        2. BAI
          BAI 6 December 2020 16: 40
          +5
          What is this?

          Several years ago I already had some fun on this topic. There are also photos with cranes, how Stonehenge is being built, how concrete is artificially aged under stone, etc. It's just that this is not a new construction, but a major reconstruction, and a very deep one - at first everything was demolished and then restored. Moreover, it is very bad - the original dimensions of the object, the use of reinforced concrete, etc. are violated. They even wanted to delete it from the UNESCO monuments. But the case was hushed up, the object was abandoned. Although the current Stonehenge is a direct analogue of the Moscow Cathedral of Christ the Savior. A remake in a word, in place of the old, genuine, but a few old stones remained - for examination.


          1. Bar1
            Bar1 6 December 2020 17: 31
            +1
            Quote: BAI
            A remake in a word, in place of the old, genuine, but a few old stones remained - for examination.


            this is the most disgusting thing, if something has lagged behind the present, but in fact everything is a remake.
            1. kalibr
              7 December 2020 10: 17
              +1
              But in 1645 it wasn't a remake, was it? The English were not up to that then ...
    2. kalibr
      6 December 2020 11: 20
      +4
      Quote: Bar1
      pearls are pitched, not round.

      But now there are excellent pearls in India. Moreover, you buy it in a store ... by weight, like nuts, they will string it on a thread, try it on ... match the color to your eyes. And in the end you get such a set.
      1. Bar1
        Bar1 6 December 2020 11: 47
        0
        Quote: kalibr
        But now there are excellent pearls in India. Moreover, you buy it in the store ... by weight, like a nut

        what to say? Beauty. How long do pearls live? They say that it has not lived for more than two hundred years. Then the question is, what about the cap of Monomakh, which is already 900 years old? Which is all in pearls.
        1. kalibr
          6 December 2020 12: 08
          +5
          Quote: Bar1
          They say it has not lived for more than two hundred years.

          They say they milk chickens in Moscow! In museum rooms, in places slightly shaded, not too dry and not very wet, pearls last not 50-70 years, but 300-400 years or more. This is confirmed by a number of accurately dated embroidery pearls. In the Zagorsk Museum there is a shroud embroidered with sea pearls "The Appearance of Our Lady to Sergius" (1525)
          1. Bar1
            Bar1 6 December 2020 12: 31
            0
            Quote: kalibr
            In museum premises, in places slightly shaded, not too dry and not very wet, pearls are not stored for 50-70 years, but for 300-400 years or more


            yes, but after all, for many centuries this hat was used for its intended purpose, and did not lie in museums, how is that?
            about not 900 years, but 400 years.
            This is just a vivid example of your history. Prince Vladimir Monomakh lived in the 11th century, and the type cap was created and named after him in the 15th century. Then why was it named Monomakh's hat, and not another prince? As usual, you don't have an answer.
            1. kalibr
              6 December 2020 13: 48
              +3
              Quote: Bar1
              Then why was it called the cap of Monomakh, and not another prince?

              Then why was the helmet named Alexander, and not another prince? As usual, you have no answer!
              1. Bar1
                Bar1 6 December 2020 14: 03
                -1
                Quote: kalibr
                Then why was the helmet named Alexander, and not another prince? As usual, you have no answer!

                I still have to answer these absurdities that your story came up with? These quirks with dating say only one thing, that with your chronology, that something is very unfortunate, which is actually Fomenko and Nosovsky and say.
                1. kalibr
                  6 December 2020 16: 05
                  +4
                  And why should I answer your absurd question about Monomakh's hat? Written down Bar, wrote down about the helmet. And about Monomakh's hat, everything is on the Web. Google to the rescue. I will say the same.
                2. Bar1
                  Bar1 7 December 2020 08: 34
                  +1
                  Quote: kalibr
                  And why should I answer your absurd question about Monomakh's hat? Written down Bar, wrote down about the helmet. And about Monomakh's hat, everything is on the Web. Google to the rescue. I will say the same.

                  Probably because you are the historian here representing the official school and you are the one who needs to support the shaky building of official history. If you already give up answering such questions, where will people get respect for your history?
                3. kalibr
                  7 December 2020 10: 18
                  +1
                  Because one idiot can ask more questions than hundreds of sages will answer. And besides, there is Google ...
                4. Bar1
                  Bar1 7 December 2020 16: 11
                  +1
                  Quote: kalibr
                  Because one idiot can ask more questions than hundreds of sages will answer. And besides, there is Google ...


                  it remains to comfort yourself like this, putting yourself above the rest when there is nothing to say.
                5. kalibr
                  7 December 2020 16: 37
                  +1
                  Firstly, I am really taller, not all, but many. You, in any case, not even on the head, but for two. And secondly, I have already contacted the British Heritage Foundation in charge of Stonehenge and they promised to provide me with all the information they have. They also have a photo of a stone with a concrete support in the archive. For rough reconstruction they even wanted to deprive them of the status of a UNESCO site, but in the 50s this was treated differently than now. And then ... there are in Russia, there are also in England ... Well, you, my dear, would never have thought of that, would you? And how can you ask a "tongueless monkey"? Inevitably, one will have to lick Pyzhikov ... Well, then my article about Stonehenge will be published ...
                6. Fat
                  Fat 7 December 2020 17: 24
                  +1
                  Quote: kalibr
                  For rough reconstruction they even wanted to deprive them of the status of a UNESCO site, but in the 50s this was treated differently than now.

                  Vyacheslav Olegovich, the case with stonehenge is, in general, not a reconstruction, but a very rough attempt to restore the object. For example, the Cathedral of Christ the Savior in Moscow is undergoing reconstruction, and the complex of the Ipatiev Monastery in Kostroma is undergoing restoration. In painting, a crude restoration is called "renovation", as in architecture I don't know.
                  Modern restorers try to preserve and preserve the original parts of the object to the maximum, and the remake (reconstruction) is specially allocated. In painting, very often color
                7. kalibr
                  7 December 2020 18: 25
                  +1
                  Well, you understand that I was not up to the correct terminology, and what came to mind, I wrote it. There will be an article - everything will be tip-top!
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 6 December 2020 15: 21
    +6
    And not river, Vyacheslav Olegovich?
    The colossal labor of the princesses and their teams.
    The vision would sink towards the end of the work.
    1. kalibr
      6 December 2020 16: 07
      +4
      Quote: Korsar4
      And not river, Vyacheslav Olegovich?

      River, of course. Have you read Chapygin "People Walking"? There, every now and then we are talking about this pearl ...
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 6 December 2020 17: 47
        +5
        I read at school. Then I didn't reread it.
        I saw it in the Lavra, in the Sacristy.
  • kalibr
    6 December 2020 12: 15
    +4
    Quote: Bar1
    Then the question is, what about Monomakh's hat, which is already 900 years old?

    Not 900 at all. This is the 400th century, that is, XNUMX years old. And you can call it whatever you like. We also call the helmet of the XNUMXth century "the helmet of Alexander Nevsky".
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 6 December 2020 14: 55
    +4
    Quote: Bar1
    Monomakh, who is already 900 years old? Who is covered in pearls


    This is where they subtracted! If I'm not mistaken, the first mention of Monomakh's cap dates back to the 16th century!
  • saygon66
    saygon66 6 December 2020 22: 04
    +4
    - In theory, pearls live until the organic components that form it decay ..
    - "Death of pearls" is the natural decay of these components of its surface. Hence the belief that pearls "die" over time ... But, it is enough to start wearing a piece of jewelry for it to regenerate ... Just the natural acidic environment of the wearer's skin dissolves the upper layers of the pearls, renewing them. There are also artificial methods for pearl rejuvenation.
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 7 December 2020 08: 26
      +1
      Quote: saygon66
      But, it is enough to start wearing the jewelry for it to recover ...

      the fact that in an acidic environment the upper dull / oxidized layer of mother-of-pearl comes off, then this process is not restoration of everything, but restoration of only the shine of the pebble.
      As for Monomakh's hat, it is certain that this hat was restored more than once, the same can be said about the fur edge. Fur does not live for hundreds of years either, because it is also organic.
      A question with a cap is a minimal lie of historians, just the arrogance that these husbands' workers express to people when they do not answer or answer with lies to such questions. But where did the CROWN of the Russian tsars go, which is presented in, say, illustrations of the Observational Code of Ivan4 or illustrations of the Radziwil Chronicle, this is already a lie with a capital letter: a system-forming lie. So the crown of the Russian tsars was destroyed and replaced with this stupid hat; who took it away and why? This is how the question appeared to which the same thing has no answer.
      1. kalibr
        7 December 2020 10: 21
        +1
        Quote: Bar1
        But where did the CROWN of Russian tsars go, which is presented in, say, illustrations of the Observational Code of Ivan4 or illustrations of the Radziwill Chronicle, this is already a lie with a capital letter: a system-forming lie

        Was she? How is this known?
        1. Bar1
          Bar1 7 December 2020 12: 01
          +3
          Quote: kalibr
          Was she? How is this known?

          We have already talked about the swami on the theme of the crown. The crown was, because there is, I have already said illustrations in the annals. And you answered like: you have to believe the chronicles, but you cannot believe the pictures. Here is a story: I believe here, I do not believe here.
          Even in small states and principalities / duchies, the rulers had crowns, and for some reason such a large feudal state as medieval Russia did not have a crown, it cannot be so.
          There are images of the crown from old sources, for example, by Herberstein: Vasily3 is sitting in a solar corona.



          Here is an illustration for the book "Van Klenk's journey" Alexei Mikhalych sits in a crown.




          By the way, in Atamania, too, the lord should have a crown, because the word sultan itself means Solar, and therefore there should be a symbol of power, some kind of solar symbol. But it is not on most images, which means that history Atamania was also rewritten, and this is very likely after the Janissary suppression of 1826.
          However, there is something, here is an image from the 1606 map of Sultan Mohammed, as we see, the sultans also wore crowns and this allows us to say that history has been rewritten.

      2. saygon66
        saygon66 7 December 2020 12: 59
        +2
        - I read about Shapki's research ... It seems like the "iron" skullcap is at the heart of it! laughing _ A gift, allegedly from the Khan Uzbek!
        - Top with a cross, fur and pearls are generally later additions - that is, an upgrade!
        - wink "All dinosaurs were the same ... It's just that archaeologists collect them differently each time ..." (C)
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 6 December 2020 19: 01
    +4
    It's the same in China.
  • kalibr
    6 December 2020 12: 18
    +6
    Quote: Bar1
    wars of 1812,

    This is when an atomic bomb was dropped from an Indian Viman on Moscow? We know, but what about ... my seven-uncle was a witness, barely survived ...
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 6 December 2020 12: 34
      0
      Quote: kalibr
      when was an atomic bomb dropped from an Indian Viman on Moscow? We know, but what about ... my seven-uncle grandfather was a witness, barely survived ..

      no, not about that ...
  • andrew42
    andrew42 7 December 2020 16: 35
    +2
    Bar1, I will support you. To Marx and Marxists, of course, great gratitude for the disclosure of the essence of capitalist relations (it was for this result that Marx derived his theory of the development of productive forces - exclusively as a proof basis for his "dissertation"). However, the problem is that the genesis of social formations according to Marx has become a dogma, which is worshiped by the overwhelming majority "because it is so." Plus, ardent Marxists are inveterate materialists, for whom the question of human nature is not considered a priori. The absolutization of such a concept as "masses" inevitably leads to the status of the human individual as a cog "thing in itself", the content of which is neither subject to consideration nor self-development. And in this there is (to the limit) a paradoxical link to the aspirations of Imperialism in the style of "one ring to rule all" (the masses). I believe that what is called "civilization" is not such, but in fact is the degradation of civilization. The family is a natural form of existence for human beings, in the process of growth it develops into a community in some form. In my understanding, the basis of Civilization is the community of high-tech peasant farms, everything else is servants and means of providing for the former. But when this “rest” is elevated to the rank of self-sufficiency, we get a society that tends to the limit for a “swarm of bees”, ruled by a queen, with stupid “hard workers” who, individually, do not represent anything. If this is the path of development of the human species, then I "stop the Earth, I will go down."
    1. Bar1
      Bar1 7 December 2020 17: 02
      +2
      Quote: andrew42
      But when this “rest” is elevated to the rank of self-sufficiency, we get a society that tends to the limit for a “swarm of bees”, ruled by a queen, with stupid “hard workers” who, individually, do not represent anything.

      this is not the case with a swarm of bees, let alone a human. The queen of bees does not control the swarm, but is needed only for reproduction, but the program built into each individual controls the bees or ants. That the human race, that the swarm is still more a community, society than an individual. A separate individual behaves in a completely different way than when he is in the circle of his friends or relatives. When a person within his community he is always collected and always more mobilized to solve any problems. A person who has lost contact with society loses his purpose in life and degrades.
      On the other hand, totalitarianism and forcible compulsion to actions lead a member of society to the same loss of purpose, passive behavior, own degradation and again the decline of society, which we now see with this Russia.
      What happened to our Russia is not the result of natural, but forced development.
      1. andrew42
        andrew42 7 December 2020 17: 31
        +2
        I agree that it is an unfortunate comparison with the "swarm of bees". Forgive me the bees :)) Just the first thing that came to mind in the process of figurative thinking. Certainly not a "swarm", he meant much worse. Forced and not natural - this is what I wanted to bring my thought to.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 6 December 2020 06: 03
    +10
    A completely acceptable approach: to look at the development of mankind through the prism of the peasantry, and its structure.
    How the ratio of estates changed is also interesting.

    But there are so many peculiarities in each country.
    And changing the name of the country or its borders does not mean that a new life has begun.

    However, these are the most important and difficult principles: the combination of discreteness and continuity (continuum).
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 6 December 2020 14: 57
      +5
      Sergei, alas - will not work. Hamsters will bring everything to a srach on a branch !!! At least now roll out the armored car!
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 6 December 2020 15: 15
        +4
        The sieve can be taken and sieved.
        Another question is what is important when communication is comfortable.
      2. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 7 December 2020 13: 45
        +3
        At least now roll out the armored car!

        There are more subtle ways ... wink
  • Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 6 December 2020 07: 10
    +6
    Everywhere there is a harsh exploitation of the common people ... it does not matter who is a peasant or a worker who received a pittance for their existence.
    They are the source of wealth and well-being of those in power, you read Vyacheslav's article and impose it as a tracing paper on modern reality and see in some details a striking similarity and regularity in the development of society at the current stage.
    Now in the bowels of the Russian government there is an active discussion of the digital ruble ... almost all incomes of citizens will be under the complete control of the state ... a new reorganization of our society is coming ... for me it is not yet clear how all this will look in practice. hiThanks for the article Vyacheslav ... I'm waiting for the continuation.
    1. kalibr
      6 December 2020 07: 36
      +7
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      . a new reorganization of our society is coming ..

      Exactly! You are 100% right. And ... will be about that. My first article on this topic was back in 1998. Then they laughed at it. Now ... now we would discuss our tomorrow. Come to VO ...
    2. tlauicol
      tlauicol 6 December 2020 07: 37
      +10
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Everywhere there is a harsh exploitation of the common people ... it does not matter who is a peasant or a worker who received a pittance for their existence.
      They are the source of wealth and well-being of those in power.

      The most interesting thing is that it has always been and will always be so. There will always be rich and poor, powerful and common people. Everything else is utopia
    3. Pechkin
      Pechkin 6 December 2020 07: 57
      -5
      And who is exploiting you now, no one forbids changing jobs or place of residence. If you don’t like your job, change your salary, or change your specialty. If you don’t want to work for your uncle, try for yourself and create your own business, we’re not in the USSR. , just come on.
      1. Lech from Android.
        Lech from Android. 6 December 2020 08: 05
        +9
        And who is exploiting you now, no one forbids changing jobs or place of residence. If you don't like the job, change your salary, raise your qualifications or change your specialty.

        You seem to be speaking correctly, but you don’t understand not everyone can be just physically managers of monopolies with salaries of one million a day.
        How much does the head of RUSNANO receive in a month ... where are the results of work for society? Why does he receive a salary several orders of magnitude higher than the salary of an ordinary citizen for a meager contribution to society?
        The same questions about the salaries of the State Duma deputies ... on what basis did they raise their salaries by an order of magnitude higher than the average salary in Russia ... that they could have raised the Russian economy to the proper height or raised domestic production to the world level ... everywhere is fraud?
        1. Pechkin
          Pechkin 6 December 2020 08: 38
          0
          Well, you immediately swung to the post of heads of state corporations, here it is more a political issue than an economic one and corruption of course. And such positions are appointed from the top. ) said go into business as did the English teacher Tatyana Bakalchuk and her husband. They created the Wildberries company and now she is a billionaire. The salary of an ordinary citizen does not exist. Nobody limits your salary, how much your work is in demand and how much you are willing to pay for it, so you and I’m not saying that we have an ideal society, but as it is.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 6 December 2020 10: 28
            +14
            as did the teacher of English Tatiana Bakalchuk with her husband. They created the Wildberries company and now she is a billionaire.
            Let's see how long we can hold out.
            In 2007 Euroset was recognized as the best company of the year. A couple of years later, Chichvarkin was forced to flee to Great Britain.
            1. Pechkin
              Pechkin 6 December 2020 11: 16
              +3
              For me, it is better to let people do something than sit on the priest exactly and are afraid that they will take everything away.
          2. Engineer
            Engineer 6 December 2020 12: 18
            +7
            Wildberry is not an example that can be discussed. Its founders have no business background and it develops without attracting investors - only its own and borrowed capital. Which is already alarming.
            2004 Bakalchuk starts working with online catalogs. 2005 on the first try creates a successful Wildberry business. On the first try... No bumping
            Such companies develop due to accelerated capitalization in the stock markets, and our Wildberry is just LLC

            The closeness and non-publicity of the founders also fits perfectly into the guess that they are just dummies.

            For comparison, Bezos founded Amazon already being familiar with network trading - 8 years in network fintech, network trading, product management.
          3. Lech from Android.
            Lech from Android. 6 December 2020 12: 19
            +6
            Nobody limits your salary,

            They also limit the respected one ... and very cleverly ... by increasing the amount of work and labor costs without touching the rate ... you can plow at least 24 hours a day, but the rate will remain the same.
            Much depends on where a person works in a seedy or prosperous company and in what region.
            With equal labor costs, people receive salaries in different ways.
            For example, the salary of a worker in Dagestan and the salary of a worker in the Moscow region differ sharply from each other with the same labor costs ... in general, this question cannot be considered within the framework of one comment and article ... I just rely on my observations ... more statistical information is needed. hi
            1. Pechkin
              Pechkin 6 December 2020 16: 22
              -2
              They also limit the respected one ... and very cleverly ... by increasing the amount of work and labor costs without touching the rate ... you can plow at least 24 hours a day, but the rate will remain the same.
              These are the tricks of the employer, no one forces you to work 24 hours for 20000. I repeat, I do not like the working conditions and the salary, quit. Your concern is to find a job in a good company, if you are an expert in your field, then you will find. As for salaries in Moscow or any poor region, I wrote that no one will change the place of residence. In any case, if you live in a town with 10000 population and one factory, which remained after the USSR and it is breathing on its way. Nothing good shines for you and no one will pay salaries like in Moscow. So everywhere , if you live in the wilderness of the state of Mississippi, then receive as in New York you will not. The USSR is no longer count 30 years, we live under capitalism and it is your and only your concern to sell your labor and time more expensive.
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 6 December 2020 08: 13
        +15
        Work with a shaft, just come on.
        But nowadays people have no money to pay for this work, I say this as a person who has been working for himself for 25 years.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 6 December 2020 08: 31
          +11
          The belts are tightened.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 6 December 2020 08: 37
            +7
            Not that word!
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 6 December 2020 08: 50
              +7
              As the not-so-funny sentence says: that word cannot be said aloud.
            2. Catfish
              Catfish 6 December 2020 09: 15
              +11
              But he said the same, and you are not satisfied.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Pechkin
          Pechkin 6 December 2020 09: 58
          -2
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          Work with a shaft, just come on.
          But nowadays people have no money to pay for this work, I say this as a person who has been working for himself for 25 years.

          Perhaps in some regions it is, or in certain professions (spheres of activity). But the fall in the ruble exchange rate influenced me, yes, but I did not notice the drop in income in rubles. The salary is growing and the additional income is also growing, as I wrote in bulk. So everything is different for everyone.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 6 December 2020 10: 32
            +6
            Peter, building.
            1. Pechkin
              Pechkin 6 December 2020 11: 06
              +1
              Well, if in St. Petersburg the salaries (or income) of builders are falling, this is not a very good sign, I just don't like it when they start groaning, they exploit me, there is no money, the salary is 20000, there is nothing to live on.
        4. Reptiloid
          Reptiloid 7 December 2020 10: 47
          +1
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          Work with a shaft, just come on.
          But nowadays people have no money to pay for this work. I say this as a person who has been working for 25 years, but I suppose that there was a lot of work too, new materials began to appear.

          Thoughtful hi what happened 25 years ago ----- I can't say for sure. Not for the age of that time, lol However, fundamentally new materials and technologies began to appear, which did not exist under the USSR. People began to appear who had dramatically more opportunities. Well, the front of work, respectively. Mom since 94 years old in a close industry. It was just then that it was good for making money ...... I hope you did it then.
          But 15 years ago I had occasion to communicate with those "self-employed" who could no longer receive permanent orders .......
          At the same time, I remember 3 Belarusians who came here in October before June-July. I know that we worked a lot on construction at high prices. .....
          Yes, now the situation is somewhat different ........
      3. kalibr
        6 December 2020 08: 33
        +11
        Quote: Pechkin
        And who is exploiting you now, no one forbids changing jobs or place of residence. If you don’t like your job, change your salary, or change your specialty. If you don’t want to work for your uncle, try for yourself and create your own business, we’re not in the USSR. , just come on.

        That's right, Dmitry! But at the same time in EVERYTHING that you wrote there is a cruel exploitation by the state, first of all, and by individuals. In the 90s I had my own magazine, my own company, I consulted 5 more, collaborated with 6 sites (early 2000) and a bunch of magazines both here and there. And so: “there” almost all publications with which I worked (and here) went bankrupt. We have only 6 of 2 sites left. The magazine is dead, the company has become unprofitable due to the competition of large firms. Out of 5 firms, 1 remained. The reasons are the same everywhere: exploitation which even very large business entities cannot surpass. But the number of officials in my own university has grown and very significantly, and everyone has a job! We, the teachers, even began to ask them: "Are we bothering you here?"
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 6 December 2020 08: 52
          +10
          And the system and officials, to show the work, load the rest.
          The epic with alterations of work programs and funds of appraisal funds is very difficult to describe by censorship.
          1. kalibr
            6 December 2020 09: 19
            +8
            Quote: Korsar4
            The epic with alterations of work programs and funds of appraisal funds is very difficult to describe by censorship.

            Actually, because of this, I left the VS. Well, is it conceivable to remake and prepare 25 folders with shoe ribbons, and each with 50-60 pages of printed text? Moreover, first you print, then you get a bonus ... and it barely covers the costs. No, I didn't sign up for that for 12,500. They all went ... well, further, as you wrote, in the mainstream of folk traditions!
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 6 December 2020 11: 29
              +7
              And most importantly - meaningless work. I keep thinking - what qualities does she bring up?
        2. Pechkin
          Pechkin 6 December 2020 08: 53
          +5
          Here I absolutely agree, our officials think that the cow gives more milk, it needs to be milked more and fed less. In general, individual entrepreneurs are taxed with a bunch of levies, there is money, but you cannot withdraw a bunch of other stupid zaponov. Many administrative barriers and an official at the gate I can open but I can not open (and what he will have from this). A bunch of checking authorities, one works and five stand with a spoon.
        3. Olgovich
          Olgovich 6 December 2020 10: 46
          -4
          Quote: kalibr
          Out of 6 sites, we have 2. The magazine is dead, the company has become unprofitable due to the competition of large firms. Out of 5 firms, 1 remained

          And what, more sites / companies have not appeared? belay

          Some leave, but others come: only for January-May 2019 new companies registered in Russia -124,9 тыс. The number of newly registered individual entrepreneurs during this period was 356,5 thousand.

          So all over the world.
          1. kalibr
            6 December 2020 11: 27
            +5
            Quote: Olgovich
            And what, more sites / companies have not appeared?

            So there you go! DID NOT APPEAR. So it's not that simple. There were sites Rumbur, Repin, I don’t remember some more ... In Penza there were 5 firms that made models. There was one and that one under the wing of Moscow. In England, the publishing house Monvert went bankrupt and with it my book "Enemies of Rome in the Northern Black Sea Region", the magazines "Battle place", "Military wargeqmer" ... went a lot ...
            1. Engineer
              Engineer 6 December 2020 17: 22
              +5
              Monvert turns out to be broke.
              It would be a pity, it would be a good competitor to Osprey.
              "Enemies of Rome in the Northern Black Sea Region"

              Goths and Sarmatians?
              1. kalibr
                6 December 2020 17: 37
                +5
                Quote: Engineer
                Goths and Sarmatians?

                And meots, and someone else ... I don't remember. Wrote and forgot ...
    4. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 6 December 2020 12: 38
      +4
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Everywhere there is a harsh exploitation of the common people ... it does not matter who is a peasant or a worker who received a pittance for their existence.
      They are the source of wealth and well-being of those in power, you read Vyacheslav's article and impose it as a tracing paper on modern reality and see in some details a striking similarity and regularity in the development of society at the current stage.
      Now in the bowels of the Russian government there is an active discussion of the digital ruble ... almost all incomes of citizens will be under the complete control of the state ... a new reorganization of our society is coming ... for me it is not yet clear how all this will look in practice. hiThanks for the article Vyacheslav ... I'm waiting for the continuation.

      Even if the state becomes the only employer, the director of the plant will still receive a higher salary than the worker, and very soon his wife will have a housekeeper who prefers to be someone's servant for the same salary that she can earn as a seamstress, that is, exploitation a person will remain a person in any case)).
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 6 December 2020 22: 32
        +4
        Sometimes I flirt with the legal terms of the USSR jurists of the 70-80s model.
        "Power is the ability and ability of one subject to control the actions of another subject (s)." laconic and true. The new terms from TGP are too tricky.
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 6 December 2020 07: 16
    +12
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    I was surprised by the following phrase:

    Terrible Rome collapsed only when peasant farms almost completely disappeared in it, although there was an abundance of agricultural products produced by slaves.
    As far as I know, Rome was dependent on grain supplies from the provinces for four centuries before its fall.
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 6 December 2020 07: 27
      +12
      Quote: 3x3zsave

      As far as I know, Rome was dependent on grain supplies from the provinces for four centuries before its fall.

      and when the provinces fell, it turned out that there were no more breadwinners in Italy, and the soldiers too
    2. kalibr
      6 December 2020 07: 41
      +11
      That is exactly how much it took him for their disappearance ... And Athens depended, and many others. But the peasants remained, cabbage was grown at the very least, cucumbers ... But when they were gone completely ...
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 6 December 2020 07: 56
        +6
        I'm actually talking about the surplus of agricultural products in the metropolis.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 6 December 2020 09: 39
          +5
          Hello Antonina!
          The proletarians of Rome were still that vacuum cleaner - "bread and circuses"! In a difficult time, Attil, Theodoriches and other "gunners", he did not take up arms and did not begin to defend his independence. However, a similar mentality of "citizens of the eternal city" existed before Napoleonics.
          The Roman man in the street for the most part did not react to the external situation, and then Italy was trampled down by all who did not get it. The exceptions were brief moments when they (citizens) began to pinch their tail personally, or rather their personal feeder. Then the riot is "bloody and merciless." The feeding trough returned, the revolutionary impulse faded away and again the silent observation of the circus and clowns as external in the form of German emperors and French kings as internal as popes!
          1. saygon66
            saygon66 6 December 2020 22: 15
            +2
            - The proletariat of Rome is an ambiguous phenomenon! It is, rather, a part of the population involved in the patrician servicemen - hairdressers, waiters, shameless girls and guards, policemen and homeless ... And running ... and running! Actually, all those who make up the population of large cities and now ... wink
            - The plebs had nothing to do with the true plowmen - except as a consumer of the products produced!
            -
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 7 December 2020 15: 25
              +1
              shameless girls

              EMNIP, these lived in separately provided places - lupanaria. laughing
              1. saygon66
                saygon66 7 December 2020 15: 36
                +2
                - There were forcibly placed "unlicensed" girls from the streets ... as well as convicted of adultery! The laws of Rome are fair! laughing
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 7 December 2020 15: 58
                  +2
                  - There were forcibly placed "unlicensed" girls from the streets ... as well as convicted of adultery! The laws of Rome are fair!

                  They also cut taxes from them, like Vespasian from public sorts! drinks
                  1. saygon66
                    saygon66 7 December 2020 18: 19
                    +3
                    - And then! According to the sources, the business was rigidly organized! Even a professional holiday was celebrated ... smile
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 8 December 2020 13: 22
                      0
                      Even a professional holiday was celebrated ...

                      What about an open day, career guidance courses, a trial period? discounts for pensioners, benefits for invalids of the battle in the Teutoburg forest? holiday promotions - "Black Friday"? wink drinks
                      1. saygon66
                        saygon66 8 December 2020 18: 08
                        +1
                        - laughing Alas! History is silent about this ... request
        2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 6 December 2020 22: 33
          +4
          Sorry Anton for calling me - I just noticed. Best regards, Vlad!
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 6 December 2020 22: 41
            +4
            It even turned out beautifully - Antonische is a match for Kitty.
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 7 December 2020 14: 49
              +4
              It even turned out beautifully - Antonische is a match for Kitty.

              In ancient Rome, they would say differently: "Caesar's Antoninische is a match for Heliogabalische." laughing Anton, don’t be offended - you’re not all out of tales! drinks Should the Arc de Triomphe also stand on my street? wink
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 7 December 2020 14: 59
                +4
                and on my street the Arc de Triomphe?
                Duc should have bought an apartment on Stachek! laughing
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 7 December 2020 15: 11
                  +3
                  Duc should have bought an apartment on Stachek!

                  Penant is dumb! request You still offer me Moskovsky prospect! recourse
                  There, up the V.O. Shpakovsky got into a conversation for pearls ... what But interesting ... wink Antonin our Heliogabalus once ordered to serve a salad of nightingale tongues in half with pearls to the banquet table. I have two questions: 1. was the pearl sea pearl or river pearl? 2. Did the joyful guests spit it out neatly, or gagged, broke their teeth, but ate it anyway? wink drinks
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 7 December 2020 15: 33
                    +2
                    Have you seen river pearls?
                    1. Pane Kohanku
                      Pane Kohanku 7 December 2020 15: 56
                      +1
                      Have you seen river pearls?

                      Honestly, no. recourse I just heard it, and it was very foggy. request
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 7 December 2020 16: 39
                        +2
                        It is small, less than a "noshpa" pill
                      2. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 7 December 2020 17: 18
                        +1
                        It is small, less than a "noshpa" pill

                        You mean, the Heliogabal drinking companions did eat it on both cheeks? lol
                      3. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 7 December 2020 17: 27
                        +2
                        Swallowed without choking.
                      4. Pane Kohanku
                        Pane Kohanku 8 December 2020 13: 30
                        +1
                        Swallowed without choking.

                        And after a while they strummed them into a chamber pot. laughing could be heard throughout the house ... fellow
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 7 December 2020 16: 49
              +2
              Penant is dumb!
              Oh, don't make me nervous! At that time and for that money it was possible to take a "stalinka" in the area of ​​sm. "Kirovsky Zavod"
          2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 7 December 2020 18: 46
            +3
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            and on my street the Arc de Triomphe?
            Duc should have bought an apartment on Stachek! laughing

            And when you walk past it in your ear, the holding will whisper - "everything is fleeting"! hi
            Good evening!
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 8 December 2020 10: 10
              +2
              And when you walk past it in your ear, the holding will whisper - "everything is fleeting"!

              Vlad, hello again! drinks
              In general, during the triumph, I planned to ask Anton to go in front of the column, in a tambour major, waving a pipidaster. fellow But, if you insist, okay, let him whisper in my ear. yes Anton, take your papidaster! I won't give mine! stop
              If someone is confused by the word "pipidastre" - it's just a brush for dusting off. laughing True true! drinks nothing seditious!
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 8 December 2020 11: 07
                +2
                I'll take it, of course! Someone needs to shake the noodles from your ears.
                1. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 8 December 2020 11: 39
                  +2
                  I'll take it, of course! Someone needs to shake the noodles from your ears.

                  If we lived in the time of Ivan the Terrible, and then there were positions - bed-sitter, falconer, solicitor, etc. - I wonder what the position of a noodle-shaker would be called? laughing drinks
                2. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 8 December 2020 11: 51
                  +2
                  Pastodestroer
                3. Pane Kohanku
                  Pane Kohanku 8 December 2020 11: 53
                  +2
                  Pastodestroer

                  Well, at least not a pastel-pastoral pastor-builder. drinks
    3. Korsar4
      Korsar4 7 December 2020 15: 02
      +4
      Remake of "Life of 12 Caesars" expected?
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 7 December 2020 15: 09
        +3
        Better "Rome" season 3.
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 7 December 2020 15: 10
          +3
          Better "Rome" season 3.

          "Game of Thrones", the ninth, or "The Drunken Midget Against All". laughing
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 7 December 2020 15: 31
            +3
            "And Captain Mikhailov Velmi is hospitable and respectable. Sometimes he will invite guests, give them a drink to an obscene state, and in the morning, give moralizing conversations with them, about excessive intemperance in strong drinking" (From a letter of recommendation)
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 7 December 2020 15: 53
              +3
              And captain Mikhailov Velmi is hospitable and respectable

              Precisely, absolutely so! And also wise and modest! good
              It happens to invite guests, to give them a drink to an indecent state

              You are "Captain M." M. confused with another captain - from the Preobrazhensky regiment of the bombardier company by captain Peter Mikhailov. He, yes - he loved to personally solder, and so on. fellow His nickname was still characteristic at the All-Sighing Council ... laughing ... But Tsar Peter and I are not alike! stop
        2. Korsar4
          Korsar4 7 December 2020 15: 34
          +3
          Did not watch. And what - the whole history of Rome has already been retold?
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 7 December 2020 15: 38
            +4
            There is no such thing. A separate episode, through the eyes of a simple centurion and a legionnaire.
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 7 December 2020 15: 14
        +3
        And about "Stachek", these are our St. Petersburg jokes. Nikolay lives in the area against which Stachek Ave. starts from the square of the same name, on which there is one of the two arches.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 7 December 2020 15: 36
          +4
          I suspect that not only the Triumphal from the city of Paris is on Earth.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 7 December 2020 15: 40
            +4
            There are two of them in St. Petersburg.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 7 December 2020 16: 01
              +4
              With Moscow - nothing connects.

              In general, not all monuments are good.
            2. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 7 December 2020 16: 09
              +4
              With Moscow - nothing connects.

              in St. Petersburg, these were arches in memory of the wars. On Moskovsky Prospekt - the Moscow Gate in honor of the Russian-Turkish war of 1828-29, and the Narva Gate in honor of the war of 1812 - on Stachek Square. drinks
              If I hadn't rushed to leaf through Wikipedia now, I would not have found out that there was one more arch, temporary - in Avtovo (this is the other end of Stachek Avenue). She met the winners in 1945.

              Avtovo is also notable for the fact that not far from the metro station there is the only serial KV-85 that has survived.
            3. Korsar4
              Korsar4 7 December 2020 17: 26
              +5
              We have it at Kutuzovsky. But it is not included in the zone of pedestrian routes of a resident of the Moscow region.
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 7 December 2020 17: 48
            +4
            Do you know what is the main difference between Muscovites and St. Petersburg?
            The fact that Muscovites are nostalgic about the past, and we (I'm not afraid of this word) are proud of what we have.
          3. Korsar4
            Korsar4 7 December 2020 17: 55
            +5
            I don't quite agree.
            1. A resident of the Moscow region - and I feel like one.
            2. Moscow is a woman.
            Not noticed by me, but I share.

            And it contains no less interesting things.

            “All in all - forty forty.
            Bell Semicholmia '(c).
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 7 December 2020 02: 31
    +3
    Everything is fine smile
  • Pane Kohanku
    Pane Kohanku 7 December 2020 14: 46
    +4
    Sorry Anton

    You see, Vlad ... lol In ancient Rome for your "Ave, Antoninus!" you would not be understood, at least. wassat For this name was forbidden ... After the cheerful Heliogabalus ... wink By the way, Shpakovsky wrote about him in his time! laughing
  • depressant
    depressant 7 December 2020 23: 04
    +2
    Kote pane Kohanka, and how they strained me with this appeal ((I thought, maybe I have something with my thinking? Or I got into a parallel universe. Everything seems to be the same, but such a small difference - it became already scary)) )
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 8 December 2020 00: 36
      +2
      There is someone who works as a Pan, and who works out as a Cat! drinks
      1. depressant
        depressant 8 December 2020 08: 00
        +1
        Good morning!)))
        No, the pan thought - this is the pan, not the panna (pani), the cat is the cat, not the cat, then everything turned out the other way around and even in a different way, life became unbearably difficult. It became difficult to live.
        Is Pane Kohanku a name?
        Kote pane Kohanka - name?
        1. Pane Kohanku
          Pane Kohanku 8 December 2020 09: 24
          +1
          Is Pane Kohanku a name?

          Lyudmila Yakovlevna, Pane Kochanku is Stanislav Karol Radziwill, the richest Polish landowner and the greatest madman of the 18th century. lol He was odd as he could, but when he could not - he was also a freak. laughing He earned the nickname due to the fact that he addressed each "Pan Kokhanka" - they say, "dear, my beloved." love here, I'm trying to match .... Even something similar in appearance .. Anton will confirm! drinks
          1. depressant
            depressant 8 December 2020 11: 03
            +1
            Here, damn it, a joker!)))
            I must somehow address my colleagues by name in cozy conversations! I wanted to meet officially, cast names in granite, but now what happens? How to apply? Pane Kohanku - Honorable Pan Radziwill?
            Is it possible - Stanislav? Wouldn't it be an insult to your dignity? Well, to the Cat - it is clear, he is Anton, the cats are not offended if the title of the noble owner is not mentioned. Didn't I mix up the names? ))))
            1. Pane Kohanku
              Pane Kohanku 8 December 2020 11: 37
              +1
              I wanted to meet officially, cast names in granite, but now what happens?

              Only after my death - then cast whatever you want. stop "He lived, lived until he died" - perfect. laughing
              Mena's name is Nikolai. hi Kota Kokhankina - Vladislav. 3x3zsave - Anton. love
              1. depressant
                depressant 8 December 2020 12: 03
                +1
                At last! )))
                Very nice to meet you love hi good )))
              2. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 8 December 2020 12: 05
                +1
                Very nice to meet you

                And I am very glad to meet you! love (and shuffled his foot!)
              3. depressant
                depressant 8 December 2020 12: 16
                +1
                And how can I! - I said, squatting in the knixen, and straightening up, added: - The weather is cold now in the Moscow region. The sun is shining, but the day is by no means wonderful, Alexander Sergeevich is mistaken, not good at meteorology.
              4. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 8 December 2020 12: 21
                +1
                - The weather is cold these days in the suburbs. The sun is shining, but the day is not at all wonderful, Alexander Sergeevich is mistaken, not good at meteorology.

                Alexander Sergeevich on the banks of the Neva would say the same thing now. The sun is shining, but the wind is blowing. hi
                In October I was lucky to spend two days in Pushgory. good So, the guest house was full of literature, Pushkin - especially. For once, before going to bed, I avidly re-read "Poltava" and "The Bronze Horseman" .... Do you know what the impression is? Alexander our Sergeich - the greatest poetry swindler! wink In a good way. laughing When he needed a rhyme, he easily changed words and stress, adjusting to what he needed! good
              5. The comment was deleted.
              6. Pane Kohanku
                Pane Kohanku 8 December 2020 14: 08
                +1
                And now, without any embarrassment, a system of laws and lies is being created that make it possible to manipulate public consciousness easily and simply and even unconstrainedly - they fit into the Pushkin wave, creating a political device out of it.

                Deeply, archetypally said! good I bow to you! love
              7. depressant
                depressant 8 December 2020 14: 35
                +1
                Thanks for the bow! Mutually! I hear Vyacheslav Olegovich's displeased grumbling. And I thought that I was pleased with the topic - from the position of today))))
  • bk0010
    bk0010 6 December 2020 22: 29
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    But when they were gone completely ...
    Well, yes, but practically two hundred years (since 235 with short interruptions) civil war has nothing to do with it.
  • bober1982
    bober1982 6 December 2020 07: 24
    +3
    The author's judgment that the French peasants supported the aristocratic landowners, and not the revolutionaries, are not entirely clear.
    Indeed, during all these revolutionary events, the peasantry and the bourgeoisie were united, against these very feudal lords, with the leading role of the bourgeoisie. The seniors were simply destroyed.
    After all the upheavals, the life of the peasants did not improve much, which caused dissatisfaction with them, the new bourgeois power, which gave Marx and the comp. Reason to accuse the peasantry of a reactionary nature.
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 6 December 2020 07: 38
      +7
      The author's judgment that the French peasants supported the aristocratic landowners, and not the revolutionaries, are not entirely clear.
      Inquire about the Vendée Rebellion and Chuaneria.
      1. Pane Kohanku
        Pane Kohanku 8 December 2020 12: 38
        +1
        Inquire about the Vendée Rebellion and Chuaneria.

        "Georges Cadudal swallowed glasses of wine, not getting drunk ..." drinks Among the leaders of the Vendee were many outstanding personalities. I hope our Valery Ryzhov will someday write about this ... hi
    2. kalibr
      6 December 2020 07: 44
      +7
      Quote: bober1982
      that the French peasants supported aristocratic landowners rather than revolutionaries is not entirely clear.
      Indeed, during all these revolutionary events, there was a union of the peasantry and the bourgeoisie,

      Just not in all and by no means everywhere! Look at Wiki - Vendee. And look why there was such a slogan: "Destroy the Vendee!" I cannot describe the VFR events in detail here.
  • kalibr
    6 December 2020 07: 48
    +4
    Quote: bober1982
    After all the upheavals, the life of the peasants did not improve much, which caused dissatisfaction with them, the new bourgeois power, which gave Marx and the comp. Reason to accuse the peasantry of a reactionary nature.

    Do you understand what you are writing? The peasantry is dissatisfied with the new bourgeois power - they have a reactionary nature!
    The workers are dissatisfied with the new bourgeois regime - do they have a revolutionary essence? How is that? You will decide what Marx meant? And then he is funny in the grave!
    1. bober1982
      bober1982 6 December 2020 08: 48
      +1
      Quote: kalibr
      Do you understand what you are writing?

      Yes, understand.
      The very concept of a French revolutionary of the epoch mentioned can be interpreted in different ways, but you wrote down the peasants as their opponents, and the feudal lords as their supporters.
      The French seigneurs (feudal lords) were not envied, on the one hand, local local peasants began to smash them, often and depriving them of both life and property, on the other hand, representatives of the bourgeoisie began to smash them.
      As it happens during such riots, from time to time, with varying success, all allies begin to smash each other, new representatives of power, and the like.
      In general, the peasants did not benefit from all this revolutionary fuss, their situation was as difficult as it was.
      Quote: kalibr
      Like this? You will decide what Marx meant? And then he is funny in the grave!

      Karl Marx did not like that the French men were dissatisfied with the results of all these disorders.
      The concept itself - the reactionary essence of the peasantry - has been sucked out of the thumb, this can only be invented with a sick imagination (Marx, Engels, Lenin)
      1. kalibr
        6 December 2020 09: 21
        +2
        Open Wiki, read about Vendee, the second person advises you this, and I’m the second time. Being clever is sometimes HARMFUL! Better to read first ...
  • ee2100
    ee2100 6 December 2020 10: 43
    +4
    "He could become rich and independent primarily from epizootics in only one way: by taking the grain from the farmer." (C) How can one become independent from animal diseases by taking the grain from the landowner?
    The author's terminology is clearly at odds with the perception of the historical process. Or is it all inspired by a pandemic?
    It is not for nothing that the text is supplied with pictures from the textbook for the 6th grade and the level is appropriate. Golopam across Europe.
    The test is a seed, and the current state of affairs in the Russian Federation is discussed.
    1. kalibr
      6 December 2020 11: 29
      0
      Quote: ee2100
      How can one become independent from animal diseases by taking grain from a landowner?
      The author's terminology is clearly at odds with the perception of the historical process. Or is it all inspired by a pandemic?

      Think a little, maybe you will ...
      1. ee2100
        ee2100 6 December 2020 13: 59
        +2
        Explain to me the fool. Thanks in advance.
        1. kalibr
          6 December 2020 16: 10
          +1
          Quote: ee2100
          Explain to me the fool. Thanks in advance.

          The cattle died from epiosotia. There is nothing to eat. But there is grain stolen. You can eat it yourself, you can exchange some for new livestock.
          1. ee2100
            ee2100 6 December 2020 17: 03
            +3
            To talk on this topic, you need to decide who lives where. Those. how far or close the tribes of nomads and farmers live from each other.
            If they live far from each other and the nomads took away the grain from the farmers, then logistics must be taken into account. How many grain will one nomad take out?
            If they live close, then what prevents the farmers from not getting together and not trying to restore the status quo.
            And in general, where did you get the idea that farmers grow only grain?
            Nomads, they are primarily shepherds and graze livestock. And it can be different livestock, you implicitly reduce everything to horses.
            In order for livestock to live, he needs pasture and hay preparation for the winter season. An epizootic happened - the cattle died, but not all and not all of them. And where does the stolen grain have to do with it? Are you offering to exchange it for livestock? And who among the tribesmen of cattle breeders, after the mass death of cattle, agree to exchange healthy cattle for grain that no one needs?
            Anthrax, rabies, foot and mouth disease are also dangerous for humans.
            What you wrote is fundamentally wrong (softly). Stolen grain will not save you from an epizootic. Will make a person richer - yes.
            1. kalibr
              6 December 2020 17: 12
              0
              Quote: ee2100
              And who among the tribesmen of cattle breeders, after the mass death of cattle, agree to exchange healthy cattle for grain that no one needs?

              Meat alone is not enough. In general, they answer you, and you climb in particular. Do not...
              1. ee2100
                ee2100 6 December 2020 19: 13
                +3
                Okay, one more time. "He could become rich and independent primarily from epizootics in only one way: by taking grain from the farmer." (C) The only way to combat epizootics is preventive and anti-epidemiological measures. Everything.
                Epizootics cannot be defeated by theft of grain.
                I read what you wrote, it was not specified in general or in particular.
                If this is your way of dealing with quarantine infections, patent it.
            2. bk0010
              bk0010 6 December 2020 22: 34
              0
              Quote: ee2100
              Will make a person richer - yes.
              You're right. Here it is better explained why the steppe people should rob:
              1. ee2100
                ee2100 6 December 2020 23: 32
                +1
                We were not arguing about the economy of the steppe pastoralists. Vyacheslav wrote deliberately stupidity and is trying to explain himself.
                Let's call this the Shpakovsky method.
                In your video, there are some very large hordes in number. Let's say a horde of 15000 people, and how many livestock per person?
  • Undecim
    Undecim 6 December 2020 11: 01
    +6
    Terrible Rome collapsed only when peasant farms almost completely disappeared in it
    For the sake of interest, I decided to clarify the reasons for the fall of Rome. At the moment, historians have 210 of them. Even gluttony played a significant role in the downfall of Rome. And what is characteristic is the Jewish influence.
    1. Salty
      Salty 6 December 2020 11: 06
      -1
      Quote: Undecim
      At the moment, historians have 210 of them. Even gluttony played a significant role in the downfall of Rome. And what is characteristic - Jewish influence

      I wonder how gluttony and Jewish influence are related in this ranking. Purely interesting.

      Thank you.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 6 December 2020 11: 11
        +5
        Gluttony is listed at number 88, Jewish influence at number 111.
        1. Salty
          Salty 6 December 2020 11: 14
          +1
          Quote: Undecim
          at number 88, ... at number 111

          To advise belay

          The question was not about lightly, the question was about where did the rating come from... And I'll draw the numbers for you myself, any, take my word for it ...
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 6 December 2020 11: 18
            +3
            This is not a rating. This is the total number of factors of the fall of the Roman Empire, which is found in historical literature. Maybe there are more of them. German historian Alexander Demandt carried out this analysis in 1986.
            1. Salty
              Salty 6 December 2020 11: 20
              0
              Quote: Undecim
              Alexander Demandt conducted this analysis in 1986

              Wonderful. Thank you, I won't go that deep - not mine.
        2. Maksim
          Maksim 6 December 2020 15: 57
          +2
          Please provide this rating. I knew about gluttony and lead, but I hadn’t heard about the Jew. Did they destroy Rome too?
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 6 December 2020 11: 31
      +4
      Are these reasons ranked?
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 6 December 2020 13: 33
        +4
        I wrote above that this is the total. You can try to "rank" if you like. The result is a serious monograph.
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 6 December 2020 14: 32
          +3
          No. Without a solid base, it will not be convincing.
          I got a strange analogy of the drying up of spruce forests in the European part of the country with the fall of Rome. So - there you can also find a bag for reasons.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 6 December 2020 14: 37
            +5
            It's easier with spruce forests.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 6 December 2020 15: 13
              +5
              Not so simple. The bark beetle typographer delivers a "blow of mercy". And before that, the root sponge worked, and the previous windblows. And people who create monocultures and then prohibit forestry felling.

              I don't promise 210 reasons, but I could name about 30.
              1. Undecim
                Undecim 6 December 2020 15: 18
                +3
                but about 30 could name.
                And at the core - one reason - the wrong organization of forestry.
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 6 December 2020 15: 26
                  +3
                  In general, I agree.
                  But this is also typical for virgin spruce forests - 5 million hectares dried up in the interfluve of the Northern Dvina and Pinega.

                  And in general, the problem of spruce forests is a priori increase in average temperatures and droughts.
                  1. Engineer
                    Engineer 6 December 2020 17: 16
                    +3
                    And in general, the problem of spruce forests is a priori increase in average temperatures and droughts.

                    I got a strange analogy of the drying up of spruce forests in the European part of the country with the fall of Rome.

                    Doesn't beat. The decline of Rome is usually associated with a cold snap - the end of the "Roman" climatic optimum
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 6 December 2020 17: 53
                      +3
                      The analogies are not with warming / cooling, but with decay, and many factors influencing it.
  • Operator
    Operator 6 December 2020 13: 39
    +2
    Vyacheslav, don't worry - everything will be tip-top with communism: the Democratic Party is confidently leading the United States on a direct road to a society of total social justice. So keep as the apple of your eye your notes, textbooks and dissertations on the history of the CPSU laughing

    The only thing that I did not understand in the article - well, under feudalism, the peasants were the predominant part of society (as before that hunter-gatherers and slaves), well, under capitalism the workers became "hegemonics", well, there is now an increase in the share of knowledge workers in society (in connection with the automation and computerization of physical labor). What is the conclusion?
    1. kalibr
      6 December 2020 13: 53
      +2
      Quote: Operator
      What is the conclusion?

      The conclusion, dear Andrey, will not be in the next article, and not even in the third ... But it will!
      1. Operator
        Operator 6 December 2020 14: 01
        +2
        In your conclusion, please take into account the experience of the Egyptian peasant civilization - with universal state ownership of land, personally free peasants, lack of monetary circulation, dual power represented by officials (state apparatus) and priests (party apparatus) and general secretaries-pharaohs at the very top, which existed unchanged several thousand years until external influence in the 6th century AD (from the feudal Arabs).
        1. kalibr
          6 December 2020 16: 12
          +1
          Quote: Operator
          take into account the experience of the Egyptian peasant civilization - with universal state property on land, personally free peasants, lack of money circulation, dual power in the person of officials (state apparatus) and priests (party apparatus) and general secretaries-pharaohs at the very top, which existed unchanged for several thousand years up to the external impact in the 6th century AD (by the feudal Arabs).

          It will be, but in a separate cycle. The name is there, but I won't tell you. Now we are working on it ...
  • Maksim
    Maksim 6 December 2020 13: 50
    +2
    Great shit, although I have a slightly different perspective on some of the aspects under consideration here:

    Terrible Rome collapsed only when peasant farms almost completely disappeared in it


    Rome collapsed when the conquests ceased in the 2-3 century and the influx of slaves dried up. Then it became impossible to increase the production of material goods at the expense of the influx of labor and the addition of new lands. Then it turned out to be more profitable to force the peasants to work by economic methods of coercion (columns) than non-economic methods (slaves). And the more “advanced” Middle Ages could not support the level of centralization and construction of stone structures than the Roman Empire. And it's not worth comparing its 40 legions with those bands that were called feudal squads.

    a nomad could establish a well-organized life and have everything necessary for life, but ... at the same time remained poor. He could become rich and independent primarily from epizootics in only one way: by taking the grain from the farmer


    He could have something and even equipped it. But everyone wanted to live in chocolate ... good. The raiding economy of the nomads was not based on the fact that they would take grain from the peasants (of course they took it), but the primary goal was the capture of slaves and artisans. Nomads could easily exist on their meat and milk diet. But they wanted clothes, tsatski and more servants. And they could only be taken away from the sedentary population.

    Leather jacket


    Maybe all the same quilting? Leather jacket as armor does not pull at all. And leather armor is incomparably more expensive than quilts. For the leather, you need to slaughter the cattle, and the linen for the quilting is not measure. Mow flax in the field, and the women would weave to the point of decline. And everything is ready - you can make as many quilts as you want.

    the founders of Marxism talk about the reactionary nature of the peasantry


    The peasantry and the peasantry are different - some kept the land on unconditional grounds (it personally belonged to them - they were reactionaries), but those who kept it in conditional hold (employers) or were enslaved to it - they were the most progressive and were: )

    Although again I repeat - the article is good.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 6 December 2020 14: 05
      +3
      Beautiful shit
      Shit, is this a shit-inducing article? Then this article is not good for shit.
      1. Maksim
        Maksim 6 December 2020 16: 11
        +2
        I made a mistake that I didn't notice. Does it give you pleasure to find fault with trifles?
    2. kalibr
      6 December 2020 16: 28
      +2
      Quote: Mac Sim
      Nomads could easily exist on their meat and milk diet. But they wanted clothes, tsatski and more servants. And they could only be taken away from the sedentary population.

      I just didn't write about it to make the story more focused. There is a very interesting history textbook by Sergei Nefedov for grades 5,6,7 based on the law of Malthus. There about this in detail ...
      1. Maksim
        Maksim 6 December 2020 21: 55
        +1
        :) There are also more advanced textbooks, but you are right - you have to start from scratch.
  • Sergey Sfiedu
    Sergey Sfiedu 6 December 2020 13: 59
    +3
    In the same textbooks of the Middle Ages, another difference between the French nobility and the English was cited - in France, the nobles practically did not pay taxes until they began to engage in commerce or production, but if they started, the taxes were high enough, so that the majority preferred not to get involved in business and live on income from land. In England, either taxes were softer, or income from the exploitation of land was less, in general, the English gentlemen of commerce and production did not shy away from it.
  • Lynx2000
    Lynx2000 6 December 2020 14: 35
    +2
    what
    If you recall from the course "Economic theory" and "Fundamentals of economic doctrines":
    The evolution of mankind by modes of production and forms of ownership is divided into the following stages:
    Primitive communal system;
    Slave-owning;
    Capitalist;
    Communist, including socialism - the initial stage.

    Probably, the wording "peasant civilization" is wrong. Ancient civilizations are not called "slave civilization".
    Just the basis of the economy from the early Middle Ages, and, up to the industrial revolution of the 19th century, was agriculture (peasants, means of production, goods).

    If I am not mistaken, at present there is a hypothesis among archaeologists and historians about the so-called coercion to unite people into settlements and engage in agriculture. Allegedly, the formation of agricultural communities and the simultaneous beginning of the cultivation of the land coincides with the emergence of the prototype of the first statehood and "leaders": lugged in Mesopotamia, nomarchs in the Nile valley, rulers of heroes in the Huang He valley ...
    Quote: Bar1

    An example of collective property is the society of Russia, and not some kind of "ancient" one, but examples from the 16-17 century.

    I don’t know how it was in Central Russia, but in Siberia, the community distributed the land, so at the village meeting, economic matters were decided, the headman was elected, land plots were distributed for plowing, mowing and pasturing cattle in the summer, as well as sorted out the so-called "administrative cases" and punished ... This situation persisted until the 1917 revolution.
    1. kalibr
      6 December 2020 16: 30
      +2
      Quote: Lynx2000
      in Siberia, the community distributed the land, so at the village meeting, economic matters were decided, the headman was elected, land plots were distributed for plowing, mowing and cattle herding in the summer, as well as the so-called "administrative cases" were sorted out and punishment was carried out.

      And in the center it was also!
    2. kalibr
      6 December 2020 16: 33
      +3
      Now the point of view is this: a period of natural compulsion to work, a period of non-economic compulsion and a period of economic. Slavery and feudalism go together. There was no pure slavery and pure feudalism. Slavery was there and there. And there have always been free and semi-dependent peasants too!
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 6 December 2020 16: 32
    +2
    Admins! You are completely lazy: one day: Valery and Vyacheslav Olegovich, and tomorrow, what will happen?
    1. kalibr
      6 December 2020 20: 51
      +3
      Quote: Astra wild2
      and tomorrow, what will happen?

      Sunday treats should be maximized!
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 6 December 2020 20: 56
      +2
      Monday? Snow? Wind?
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 6 December 2020 16: 36
    +3
    Quote: Mac Sim
    I made a mistake that I didn't notice. Does it give you pleasure to find fault with trifles?

    I understand you: I often find myself in this position
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 6 December 2020 16: 46
    0
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, maybe a "rural community"? I do not remember from history: "the neighborhood community"
    1. Phil77
      Phil77 6 December 2020 16: 54
      +4
      Quote: Astra wild2
      neighborhood community "

      The people who live in the neighborhood have organized themselves and .... here it is, the neighboring community. wink
      The oldest concept, it should be noted. Well, one of the oldest. what
      1. Sergey Sfiedu
        Sergey Sfiedu 7 December 2020 17: 00
        0
        "The people who live in the neighborhood have organized themselves and .... here is the neighborhood community. Wink
        The oldest concept, it should be noted. Well, one of the oldest "- actually - not quite so. The oldest is a tribal community. People of the same clan-tribe lived in one settlement. But when in one settlement there were quite ordinary Gauls, and Romans, and Goths, and Franks, and the Burgundians, (Well, or even some Franks, but from different families), and they had to somehow improve their life with their neighbors, and a neighboring community was formed.
    2. Undecim
      Undecim 6 December 2020 20: 01
      +2
      I do not remember from history: "the neighborhood community"
      Refresh your memory. Orlov A.S., Georgieva N.G., Georgiev V.A. Historical Dictionary. 2nd ed. M., 2012, p. 484.
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 6 December 2020 20: 29
        +2
        Viktor Nikolaevich, not all such encyclopedists
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 6 December 2020 20: 33
          +4
          Encyclopedists are not born, they become encyclopedists.
    3. kalibr
      6 December 2020 20: 51
      +2
      Quote: Astra wild2
      "neighborhood community"

      This is a generally accepted, quite scientific term ...
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 6 December 2020 18: 22
    +2
    "cloth making required machine tools, machine tools - development of mechanical engineering" in the history textbook was depicted a loom: "Janie". The Jani looms led to the ruin of the weavers - artisans. Which in turn led to the Ludite movement
  • Maksim
    Maksim 6 December 2020 21: 52
    +1
    Quote: kalibr
    IN 1645 THERE WAS NO CONCRETE STILL

    Basically, concrete has been known since Roman times. Look at the pictures of the Coliseum - there is enough concrete for two Stalin Lines.
    1. kalibr
      7 December 2020 06: 37
      +1
      Quote: Mac Sim
      Basically, concrete has been known since Roman times. Look at the pictures of the Coliseum - there is enough concrete for two Stalin Lines.

      Since the days of Rome does not mean that in England in 1645. Do you know for sure that he was there? Me not...
      1. Maksim
        Maksim 8 December 2020 00: 56
        0
        You know for sure that there he was


        In Rome and early Byzantium, he definitely was. In the rest of Europe - it was fiction for lack of pozzolana. But in medieval Italy - it was also. However, the fact that in the 17th it was not used in England does not mean that they did not know about it. Therefore, they tried to replace the pozzolana with something else. The result is Portland cement.
        1. kalibr
          8 December 2020 08: 43
          0
          Quote: Mac Sim
          Therefore, they tried to replace the pozzolana with something else. The result is Portland cement.

          In 1645 year?
          1. Maksim
            Maksim 8 December 2020 16: 20
            0
            Polutilos when it turned out and where it turned out. In addition, no one canceled the trade. Let me give you an analogy - damask steel was made in India due to the availability of a suitable composition of ore, but products from damask steel were strolled all over Asia, sometimes reaching Europe. Concrete was known in England in the 17th, but it could not be made by ourselves. In Europe itself, sulfur finds were 2, or 1 - depending on what assumptions we take. And where was the gunpowder made?
            So it is with concrete - to know and make your own raw materials - two big differences.
            1. kalibr
              8 December 2020 17: 21
              0
              Importantly, there are no concrete buildings in England dating from this year. But they knew, they did not know - "an empty chamomile". But when the concrete block was installed under the stone in Stonehenge, it is known for sure. This is already in our time, during the period of its stupid reconstruction ... There is even a photo in the newspaper of how it is carried out!
  • alexey alexeyev_2
    alexey alexeyev_2 6 December 2020 22: 47
    0
    They are Shpakovsky and in Africa Shpakovsky ..
    1. kalibr
      7 December 2020 06: 38
      +2
      That's right, Alexey! I always knew that if you send me even to the Tuaregs, then after a while they will work for me, and not me for them!
      1. alexey alexeyev_2
        alexey alexeyev_2 8 December 2020 09: 21
        0
        Well well, especially if you write them a luxurious story
        1. kalibr
          8 December 2020 10: 24
          0
          Quote: Aleksey Alekseev_2
          Well well, especially if you write them a luxurious story

          Exactly, Alexey. Only not everyone will be able to do this. It's easy in words ...
  • faterdom
    faterdom 6 December 2020 22: 59
    +1
    Terrible Rome collapsed only when peasant farms almost completely disappeared in it,

    Vyacheslav Olegovich, let me inform you that this statement is controversial and hardly interconnected.
    After all, "Terrible Rome" collapsed ...
    -how changed the traditional Latin-Greek gods to Christianity;
    - as a republican, and after the imperial sole form of government changed to diarchies, triarchies, or sometimes tetrarchy;
    - when the heroes of Rome such as Stilicho or Aetius began to receive execution and denigration in gratitude for real merits;
    - when he could not deal with the Goths in time, which were pressed by the Huns, and in the end they squeezed the province of Africa - the granary and budget-forming region of the Empire. Attempts to return it failed, all the more so the Huns themselves arrived in time on the other side of the Ecumene. Plus a monstrous epidemic around the same time that crippled the population and economy of the remaining parts;
    -when the "defenders of the Roman fatherland" became not the scovola muses, but almost exclusively barbarians;
    -and even after all this, only half of the Empire collapsed - the other existed for another 1000 years, and even some garrisons of the ZRI continued their usual life in their cities, maintaining order for another decade or two, without receiving any salary and instructions from the center. Subsequently, either joining the robbers, from whom they protected their provinces, or forming the basis of the squads of new state formations, all kinds of kingdoms, duchies and others.
    1. kalibr
      7 December 2020 06: 35
      +1
      Quote: faterdom
      -when the "defenders of the Roman fatherland" became not the scovola muses, but almost exclusively barbarians;

      And who were the Muzii? Of the peasants!
      1. depressant
        depressant 7 December 2020 10: 50
        +4
        At one time, namely in childhood, while reading Tacitus, I came across the name of a Roman military leader, which struck me so much that it was engraved in my memory forever as one of useless knowledge - Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus. Wow! Ahenobarbus ...
        I rolled this name in my mind - it sounds like a baobab, but louder, like a drumbeat. And for some reason I remembered Zhugdermidiina Gurrakchu - even more useless knowledge. And there, who knows, the ways are inscrutable!
        Good frosty morning everyone, success and good luck! To everyone who looks at the already cooling forum))))
        1. Sergey Sfiedu
          Sergey Sfiedu 7 December 2020 16: 14
          +2
          Ahenobarbus means Redbeard. The Mediterranean race is black-haired, and its ancestors were red. Non-Europeans. And of the names, Publius Ovidius Nazon - Public Ovate Nose sounds best.
    2. Sergey Sfiedu
      Sergey Sfiedu 7 December 2020 16: 51
      +1
      I'm not Vyacheslav Olegovich, but I will note that after Christianity became the state religion, Rome existed for another century and a half. The introduction of the diarchy, etc. was a forced and justified measure due to the onslaught of the barbarians. Africa was squeezed out not by the Goths, but by the vandals, but squeezed out because the empire did not have the money to hire troops and bribe the leaders of the enemy because of the decline of the peasant economy, and as you rightly noted - epidemics. The fact that the Eastern Empire survived is not surprising, its peasants, due to better natural conditions, gave the state power much more taxes, so that the defense budget of the East exceeded the entire state budget of the West. Those garrisons of the ZRI that continued to exist in isolation in some cities - consisted of barbarians, and were no different from other German invaders. It has already been written here that the cause of the decline of the Empire is more than a hundred, each of them separately seems to be not fatal, but all together led to a sad result.
  • faterdom
    faterdom 7 December 2020 11: 52
    +1
    Quote: depressant
    And for some reason I remembered Zhugdermidiina Gurrakchu

    It is not difficult.
    The main thing is not to forget during a personal meeting to correctly name the President of Turkmenistan - Gurbanguly Berdimuhamedov.
    Well, all our "Afghans" dreamed of sending one of the leaders of the "Peshawar Seven" Gulbeddin Hekmatyar to the gurias.
  • faterdom
    faterdom 7 December 2020 19: 38
    0
    Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
    Africa was squeezed out not by the Goths, but by the vandals,

    On October 19, 439, the Germanic (Gothic) Vandal tribe, under the leadership of King Geiserich, captured Carthage, the largest city after Rome in the Western Roman Empire
    (From Wikipedia, the source, of course not scientific, but something like that).
    Is it because, is not it - because this province possessed a significant number of both rural estates and, in fact, money.
    Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
    The introduction of the diarchy, etc. was a forced and justified measure due to the onslaught of the barbarians.

    On another occasion - the global size in the absence of communication means, in our understanding of the required promptness, created problems on many issues, for example, neglected cases of corruption on the ground were checked for years, and if the sent commission was also bribed, it was possible to get an uprising in the "oasis of stability and prosperity ", unexpected for the capital, which is usually very busy with a dozen other problems.