Military Review

Uncertain prospects of "Arena-M"

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Tower tank with units KAZ "Arena". A radar block is raised above the tower, launchers are located along the perimeter of the dome. Photo of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation


One of the ways to increase the survivability and stability of a modern tank on the battlefield is the active protection complex (KAZ). He must detect dangerous objects and hit them on approach to the tank using special protective ammunition. A whole family of such complexes has been created in our country - "Arena". Products of this line are regularly shown at exhibitions, but have not yet reached the troops. Recently, however, work has intensified, and the latest model of the family may enter service.

Exhibitions and news


According to known data, the last KAZ of the domestic family, the T09-06 "Arena-M", was created at the beginning of the last decade in order to modernize the existing main tanks of all models. In 2013, at an exhibition in Nizhny Tagil, for the first time, they showed a mock-up of such a KAZ installed on a modernized T-72B3 tank. An experienced tank with new equipment has been shown before. Various statements were made, but no plans to put the Arena-M into service were announced.

At the beginning of 2017, the Mechanical Engineering Design Bureau (Kolomna), which developed the Arena series KAZ, announced that such systems would in the future be installed on the T-72 and T-90 MBTs. Moreover, at that time, the T09-06 product was undergoing tests, which were monitored by the command of the ground forces. Details of these events were not disclosed.


Model of a tank with the "Arena-M" complex. Photo Gurkhan.blogspot.com

In mid-2018, it became known that the Ural Design Bureau of Transport Engineering (part of the NPK Uralvagonzavod) purchased from an unnamed supplier products for the modernization of the T-72B3 tank by installing the T09-A6 active protection complex. The cost of the purchased products amounted to 5 million rubles.

In November 2019, an interesting photograph was made available. It showed a T-72B3 tank with Arena-M KAZ units on the turret. Apparently, the photo was taken during tests at an unknown test site. The appearance of such a photograph was fully consistent with the previous news.

At the end of September 2020, the domestic media published curious information about the development of MBT, obtained from the 38th Research Institute of armored weapons and equipment. It was reported that until 2025 Russian tanks T-72B3M, T-80BVM and T-90M will maintain parity with the main foreign models. After 2025, modernization will be required to improve the basic characteristics.


Tank with a mock-up KAZ. Photo Otvaga2004.mybb.ru

Ways to improve the protection of the current MBT are proposed. Thus, it is proposed to equip the T-90M with the Arena-M KAZ. It is also necessary to update the ERA and upgrade other key systems. Details on the implementation of active protection were not reported. It was also not specified whether the KAZ is needed by other domestic tanks.

Undefined status


Thus, in the context of the T09-06 Arena-M project, a specific situation has emerged, which is not yet conducive to optimism. Kolomenskoye KBM has extensive experience in the development of KAZ and for several more years presented another sample of this class. Later "Arena-M" passed tests, the results of which, however, are unknown. Probably, the complex shows the calculated characteristics, which allows the development organization to promote it into the army.

At the same time, the armed forces for a long time did not show a clear interest in the entire direction of KAZ. Over the past several decades, samples of this class have not been able to pass further tests and demonstrations at exhibitions. The reasons for this are simple and understandable. The program of mass production and implementation of the complexes will be very expensive. In addition, it is believed that fragments of protective ammunition threaten infantry and armored vehicles around the tank with KAZ. Over time, doubts arose about the advisability of installing such systems on older tanks.


Locator antenna and trigger. Photo Gurkhan.blogspot.com

However, the armed forces do not abandon the KAZ. So, in the project of the promising unified platform "Armata", it was initially required to provide for the installation of a new generation KAZ. As it became known in the recent past, the army considers it expedient to use KAZ on tanks of the previous generation. However, the real prospects for "Arena-M" are still visible only in the second half of the twenties.

It should be borne in mind that the use of KAZ "Arena-M" on the T-90M tank is still only a recommendation of a specialized research institute, developed on the basis of available data and experience. It is unclear whether it will be taken into account when drawing up real technical requirements for a future modernization project.

It should also be recalled that Arena-M can be installed not only on the new T-90M. Back in the early tenths, they showed a variant of its installation on the modernized T-72. Apparently, the T-80 of all current modifications can also be carried by KAZ.

Differences and advantages


According to known data, KAZ "Arena-M" in its architecture differs from the previous developments of the family, but works on the same principle. It is proposed to install several separate antennas of the radar system and a number of launchers along the perimeter of the tank turret, each of which carries up to 3-4 protective ammunition. Control automation is mounted inside the fighting compartment.


Launcher with dummy ammunition. Photo Gurkhan.blogspot.com

In the course of work, KAZ locators automatically scan the surrounding area and track the appearance of potentially dangerous objects. In the event of a missile or projectile flying in the direction of the tank, the automation should launch a protective ammunition. At a given distance from the tank, it detonates and strikes the projectile with a directed stream of fragments.

The exact characteristics of the Arena-M KAZ have not yet been published. The previous sample with a different layout of components could provide all-round protection of the tank in a sector with an elevation angle from -6 ° to + 20 °. The range of destruction of an approaching ammunition reached 50 m. The operating speed was from 50-70 ms. Probably, the modernized complex has similar parameters or exceeds its predecessor.

The organization-developer previously claimed that the "Arena-M" could easily cope with the defeat of the anti-tank missile complex BGM-71 TOW. This product develops a speed of up to 280 m / s in flight and is capable of maneuvering, which makes it difficult to intercept. It can be assumed that the new Russian KAZ will cope with other missiles showing similar flight characteristics.


T-72B3 with KAZ "Arena-M" (launchers are marked in red) at the test site, 2019 Photo Bmpd.livejournal.com

The Arena-M complex has several important advantages over the previous products of the family. First of all, this is the novelty of the KAZ as a whole and its individual components. Changing the architecture of the complex and dividing its funds into several separate blocks simplifies the retrofitting of tanks. In addition, the components do not significantly affect the dimensions of the tank and do not interfere with access to the crew's workplaces.

Foggy future


In recent decades, the topic of active protection has received special attention from the leading countries of the world, and noticeable results are already taking place. In some countries, KAZ has been developed and adopted for armament for MBT and other armored vehicles. The Russian army is still lagging behind in this regard: new systems are being developed and tested, but they have not yet entered service.

However, there are reasons for restrained optimism. The Russian army understands the need to increase the level of MBT protection by all available methods. This understanding has already affected the development of promising armored vehicles on the Armata platform, incl. tank T-14. The further development of other types of MBT, most likely, will also not do without KAZ - although this will happen later.

Thus, after several decades of waiting, the situation may change. The units will simultaneously serve completely new tanks, initially carrying active protection, and updated armored vehicles from the presence, additionally equipped with such means. The level of protection of the main tanks will increase, and with it the combat capability of the ground forces will also increase. However, all such measures are still a matter of the future - although we would like to resolve this issue as soon as possible.
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  1. Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 2 December 2020 06: 25
    +12
    it is believed that fragments of protective ammunition threaten infantry and armored vehicles around the tank with a KAZ. Over time, doubts arose about the advisability of installing such systems on older tanks.

    About the infantry, yes, whoever did not hide, will blow off his head for doing it.
    Although, if the same Tow arrives, then without any KAZ, everyone who is nearby will not seem a little.
    1. Thrifty
      Thrifty 2 December 2020 07: 25
      -18%
      A jacket in stock, but why is it "just blow your head off?" Sow panic to the maximum, write that everyone who is within a radius of 300 meters will chop the KAZ fragments into cabbage! !!!
      1. Jacket in stock
        Jacket in stock 2 December 2020 09: 22
        +10
        Quote: Thrifty
        Sow panic

        Well, three hundred, not three hundred, but next to the included KAZ I would not run for sure.
        I remember that the first time I was sent to the test site was the very first operating model of the KAZ to test it. It was a long time ago. KAZ has not even tried on for tanks yet. But they worked at a tank range, the BOPSs were a target simulator. So, then not only the shells themselves were caught, but their reflection from everything that was nearby - from neighboring tanks, rails, reinforced concrete slabs with which the site was laid. There was a problem with false positives. However, this problem, the correct identification of the target against the background of surrounding objects, is the most important in the location, always and everywhere.
        Since then, I hope, this problem has been worked on, but safety precautions still need to be observed. It is written in blood - do not stand not only under the arrow, but in front of a loaded cannon.
      2. Grigory_45
        Grigory_45 3 December 2020 23: 59
        +1
        Quote: Thrifty
        Sow panic to the maximum, write that the fragments of KAZ will be cut into cabbage by everyone within a radius of 300 meters! !!

        three hundred of course are not there, but closer than 30-40 meters from the tank with the KAZ turned on, I would not recommend to be strongly in order to avoid the appearance of holes in the body not provided by the creator. It's not just that the headlights are lit on armored vehicles - they say, be afraid!
    2. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 2 December 2020 08: 55
      +3
      Quote: Jacket in stock
      About the infantry yes



    3. RealPilot
      RealPilot 17 February 2021 17: 45
      0
      The danger of being near the KAZ has long been discussed. The worst thing is false positives.
      I suspect it is possible what

      But spreading the radar in the tower is a plus, great. Just the "birdhouse" of the first "Arena" (in the first photo to the article) is an obvious target for a large-caliber machine gun or sniper fire. An accurate shot from a 12,7 caliber can disable such a system at least from the sector, and in case of damage to the main electronics, completely.
  2. Thrifty
    Thrifty 2 December 2020 07: 28
    +7
    Here, we need to put our "genees" from the defense industry and the government into a tank without reactive armor and without KAZ, and fire a couple of shots from the Kornet at the tank! I am sure that KAZ will begin to be massively installed even on buggies in the army after that. ..
  3. Lied71
    Lied71 2 December 2020 07: 47
    +6
    \ The program of mass production and implementation of the complexes will be very expensive. \
    And that the price of the tank + the price of the crew is less than the kaz / kaz ammunition?
    1. psiho117
      psiho117 4 December 2020 03: 08
      +3
      Quote: Lied71
      it would be possible to order several kits for vehicles fighting in Syria, for example

      Can. And you can also put KOEP on helicopters so that they are not shot down.
      But for some reason, they don't.
      Xs, what's in their heads.
  4. Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 2 December 2020 07: 58
    +5
    Why put this on everything if you need a KAZ with protection of the upper hemisphere? You can bet on those that are used in Syria, Karabakh, South Ossetia.
    1. Hermit21
      Hermit21 2 December 2020 09: 06
      +5
      The Russian complex of active protection of tanks "Arena-M" is capable of intercepting American Javelin missiles and Israeli Spike, industrial director of the complex of weapons of the state corporation "Rostec" Bekkhan Ozdoev said in an interview with RIA Novosti.
      "The complex (" Arena-M ") is built on a modern element base, its tactical and technical characteristics have been significantly increased. It is capable of striking ammunition flying from any direction. Its capabilities are so high that it can intercept all modern anti-tank guided missiles, including the famous Javelin and Spike attacking from above, "he said.
    2. Grigory_45
      Grigory_45 4 December 2020 00: 02
      +1
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      if you need a KAZ with protection of the upper hemisphere?

      and what, the RPG and ATGM of the 2nd and 3rd generations have already been canceled, nothing will fly into the sides and stern?
  5. Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 2 December 2020 08: 54
    +7
    Well, well ... "to find fault" "Arena-M" is already a habit! In part, this is true ... in its “current” form, “Arena-M” cannot cope with the threat of defeat from the top, which is becoming more and more priority with “every year”! But, unfortunately, no one notices that Arena KAZ has the necessary potential for modernization! First of all, we need new "counter-ammunition" based on the old ones ... adjustable! The concept of such "counter ammunition" is already available! We need other PUs, albeit on the basis of the previous ones! "Variety" of striking elements ...: 1. tungsten fragments; 2. a beam of "shock nuclei"; 3. "throwable" plate ... (this is just for those who are afraid of being hit by "counter-ammunition" of their own ...) A more simplified, cheaper version of the "Arena" can also be used to protect armored vehicles less "priority" for the enemy, arranged according to the type Ukrainian "Barrier"! I repeat .... KAZ "Arena" has opportunities for further improvement and I can see them!
    1. Hermit21
      Hermit21 2 December 2020 09: 09
      +1
      Attackers from above are also striking. Well, it's not hard to guess that the much more advanced "Afghanite", about which normal people have long been talking to those squatting on the "Javelins" and other roof-fighters
      1. Nirvanko
        Nirvanko 3 December 2020 02: 08
        +1
        Who told you such nonsense. Afghanite in the upper hemisphere works with all sorts of curtains and traps.
      2. Grigory_45
        Grigory_45 4 December 2020 00: 05
        +1
        Quote: Hermit21
        Attackers from above are also striking.

        Excuse me, but how does he (KAZ) "see" them, so that they can be hit later? See how the arena radar antennas are oriented
        1. Hermit21
          Hermit21 4 December 2020 07: 24
          -1
          Suddenly, in addition to the radar, there is a complex of multispectral sensors. They can see. The radar can also detect on approach from the front hemisphere and transmit information to the sensors
          1. Grigory_45
            Grigory_45 4 December 2020 22: 16
            0
            Quote: Hermit21
            in addition to the radar, there is a complex of multispectral sensors

            ))) What determines the distance, speed and heading angles of the attacking ammunition? Information for the on-board computer is provided exclusively by the radar. If you do not know the KAZ device, why enter into a dispute?
            1. Hermit21
              Hermit21 5 December 2020 07: 36
              -1
              They also define. "Derivation" without radar at all - and nothing, optics gives data for the OMS. Here is the same story, only the requirements for calculating the parameters are higher
              1. Grigory_45
                Grigory_45 5 December 2020 10: 11
                +1
                Quote: Hermit21
                They also define. "Derivation" without radar at all - and nothing, optics gives data for the OMS. Here is the same story, only the requirements for calculating the parameters are higher

                nonsense. Derivation's targets are an order of magnitude slower, the distance to them is orders of magnitude higher, there, yes, an optoelectronic station, a laser rangefinder and a ball calculator can handle it. For example: a person also has a chance to shoot down a UAV from a machine gun, but does he have a chance to shoot down an artillery shell? The question is rhetorical. Once again - you don't know the hardware, don't talk nonsense. All KAZ are based on radar.
                1. Hermit21
                  Hermit21 5 December 2020 10: 28
                  -2
                  I doubt that the speed of modern electronics is not enough to calculate the trajectory of the incoming ammunition and issue the control center. As well as in the fact that someone will make an SAZ with the cover of the upper hemisphere without the possibility of detecting targets in it
                  1. Grigory_45
                    Grigory_45 5 December 2020 11: 06
                    0
                    Quote: Hermit21
                    someone will make an SAZ with the cover of the upper hemisphere without the possibility of detecting targets in it

                    and the Arena cannot operate on the upper hemisphere
                    1. Hermit21
                      Hermit21 5 December 2020 11: 09
                      -4
                      The Russian complex of active protection of tanks "Arena-M" is capable of intercepting American Javelin missiles and Israeli Spike, industrial director of the complex of weapons of the state corporation "Rostec" Bekkhan Ozdoev said in an interview with RIA Novosti.

                      "The complex (" Arena-M ") is built on a modern element base, its tactical and technical characteristics have been significantly increased. It is capable of striking ammunition flying from any direction. Its capabilities are so high that it can intercept all modern anti-tank guided missiles, including the famous Javelin and Spike attacking from above, "he said.

                      Well, it is logical that the more advanced "Afghanit" can even more
                      1. Grigory_45
                        Grigory_45 5 December 2020 11: 23
                        +1
                        And you are not confused by the apparent contradiction between the technical appearance of KAZ and the words of the manager? Then there is really nothing to talk about with you. If tomorrow your Ozdoev says that the Arena is capable of intercepting ballistic missiles, you will probably believe him))
                      2. Hermit21
                        Hermit21 5 December 2020 11: 46
                        -4
                        No, it doesn't bother. All the best
                      3. Grigory_45
                        Grigory_45 5 December 2020 11: 51
                        +1
                        I recommend that you study the materiel, and not take on faith the words of people who are not technical specialists and do not know the nuances of the design. Here on the Armata and Kurganets platforms there is a top-view radar (albeit a simple one), but it does exist, it allows you to track roof-breakers, but in the Arena it is not and never was
                        Success in studying the materiel, preferably not according to the managers))
                  2. czes
                    czes 27 December 2020 12: 52
                    0
                    Have you read the biography of Bekkhan Ozdoev?
                    It's like Rogozin at Roscosmos.
  • Hermit21
    Hermit21 2 December 2020 09: 21
    +2
    throwable "plate


    This is called ADZ - active remote sensing. The T-14 covers the OS from the sides.

    First of all, we need new "counter-ammunition" based on the old ones ... adjustable! The concept of such "counter ammunition" is already available! We need other PUs, albeit on the basis of the previous ones! "Variety" of striking elements


    All this, one way or another, is in "Afghanite". Vserakursnost, at least two types of PU, several types of ammunition, including generators of optical radiation, explosive magnetic generators.

    like the Ukrainian "Barrier"


    Why do we need this shit? The "Zaslon" and its ancestor "Rain" have a completely different principle of operation, and much less effective
    1. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 2 December 2020 10: 25
      +3
      Unfortunately, you didn't quite take my comment correctly!
      Quote: Hermit21
      throwable "plate

      Here, just ... "Fedot, but not that one!" What I suggest is somewhat different from what you describe! You would understand this better if you could familiarize yourself with the concept of an anti-helicopter mine (PVM) with modular "warheads" from "free patents"!
      Quote: Hermit21
      All this, one way or another, is in "Afghanite".

      Again, not that! Afghanite has a different principle ... different constructive solutions!
      Quote: Hermit21
      like the Ukrainian "Barrier"


      Why do we need this shit?

      I am not suggesting "Barrier"! I propose a simplified and "cheap" "Arena" with the use of some technical solutions, if you like ... "Rain", to protect the "cheap" armored vehicles!
      PS "1.Afganite", judging by the "hints", is very expensive ... I suppose, more expensive than "Arena"! And this is a big "catch"! By the way, why is it all "stared" at "Afghanit"? Why not consider, for example, KAZ Shtandart?
      2. Regarding "Afghanit" ... In the first published materials about this KAZ it was also reported that 2 (!) KAZ would be installed on the Armata ... One to defeat direct attackers and in a gentle dive of ammunition ... another - to defeat attackers from above! Also .... the image of the KAZ "Afghanit" (in the pictures ...) does not "fit" (!) With the declared principle of destruction of anti-tank weapons! And these "mortars" can hardly hit the ammunition attacking from the top!
      1. Hermit21
        Hermit21 2 December 2020 11: 21
        +1
        somewhat different from what you describe


        The principle of operation of the ADZ is based on the registration of the magnetic fields of the incoming ammunition and the throwing of the plate even before direct contact. Approximately what you are talking about.

        I propose a simplified and "cheap" "Arena" with some technical solutions, if you like


        "Some technical solutions" will make it more expensive. And what exactly is needed? Intercept BOPS? Indirect impact? All-roundness? "Arena-M" and so one of the best KAZ.

        Why not consider, for example, KAZ Shtandart?


        Because it will not be much simpler and cheaper than Afghanit, which is its development. In addition, 195 and 148 were originally built based on their location and use. Where to shove all this junk into the T-72 or T-90? This is at least a new tower, and "Arena-M" allows you to do without it.

        In the first published materials about this KAZ it was also reported that 2 (!) KAZ would be installed on the "Armata"


        It is more correct to call "Afganit" SAZ - an active protection system, which, one way or another, prevents the ammunition from reaching the target.

        the image of the KAZ "Afghanit" (on the pictures ...) does not "fit" (!) with the declared principle of destruction of anti-tank ammunition! And these "mortars" can hardly hit the ammunition attacking from the top!


        Roughly speaking, there are two types of launchers in "Afganit": "protivobopsy" at the base of the tower and smaller ones that look up. The latter are intended, among other things, to defeat ammunition attacking from above.
        1. Nikolaevich I
          Nikolaevich I 2 December 2020 19: 11
          +1
          Quote: Hermit21
          The principle of operation of the ADZ is based on the registration of the magnetic fields of the incoming ammunition and the throwing of the plate even before direct contact. ...

          I understood what you mean ... but I meant a little differently ... Here, it is more expedient to cite MON mines as an example, when the "matrix" does not consist of a "set" of fragments (fragments); but represents a thrown plate ... Samples of such ammunition (warhead) are available on the Internet ...
          Quote: Hermit21
          "Some technical solutions" will make it more expensive.

          What technical solutions make KAZ "Zaslon" more expensive? It does not have a "central" radar ... a powerful BIUS ... all-aspect expensive launchers ... The supposed "primitive" "Arena" is not calculated to eliminate all (!) Threats! It should protect cheaper, "secondary" armored vehicles, first of all, from anti-tank guns, grenade launcher shots fired into the side!
          1. Hermit21
            Hermit21 2 December 2020 20: 13
            -1
            represents a throwing plate


            In ADZ and the plate rushes... In advance, before direct contact, the plate is fired towards the ammunition. In this it differs from the usual DZ, where the plate is thrown due to the contact of the ammunition with the DZ block.

            What technical solutions make KAZ "Zaslon" more expensive


            I don’t understand what exactly is needed. A simplified cheap "Arena-M" with a part of technologies from "Afganit"? So it won't be cheap and it won't be easy. And what's the point in that. It is better to immediately do a normal KAZ
        2. Grigory_45
          Grigory_45 3 December 2020 23: 55
          +1
          Quote: Hermit21
          Roughly speaking, there are two types of launchers in "Afganit": "protivobopsy" at the base of the tower and smaller ones that look up. The latter are intended, among other things, to defeat ammunition attacking from above.

          Afganit has no ammunition to hit the ammunition attacking the tank from above. Those very small mortars are mortars of the SDR system, the system of setting the curtains. Plus, SEMZ switches to the upper hemisphere. From the roof-fighting at Armata, only the setting of jamming to guidance.
        3. psiho117
          psiho117 4 December 2020 03: 17
          -1
          Quote: Hermit21
          there are two types of launchers in "Afganit": "anti-pop" at the base of the tower

          Interception of BOPS is a myth. Simple physical formulas for the 7th grade, tell us that a kinetic supersonic penetrator, weighing 5 kg and flying at a speed of 1800 m / s, can not be stopped in any way, having pissed on it with several 5 gram fragments.
          1. Hermit21
            Hermit21 4 December 2020 07: 21
            -1
            Interception of BOPS is a myth

            Immediately inform the developers about it.
            pshiknuv on him with several 5-gram fragments

            Who said that there are five-gram and, in general, fragments?
            1. psiho117
              psiho117 4 December 2020 13: 57
              +1
              Quote: Hermit21
              Who said that there ... even fragments
              developer and said. Moreover, 5g is me with a margin, maybe 2-3g. look at the thrown element, its thickness.
              5g is the weight of a 6mm bearing, there a priori nothing can be heavier - but most likely the weight is less than five grams, because the smaller the fragments, the higher their speed, and the denser the fragmentation field. And since the defeat occurs at a short distance of several meters, heavy fragments will be ineffective.
              Immediately inform the developers about it

              The developers have known this for a long time. This was described back in the 90s, in Basalt's report on the study of the effectiveness of countermeasures.
              So, the effectiveness of anti-cumulative elements against heavy kinetic penetrators (such as BOPS and impact nuclei) is only 15%.
              1. Hermit21
                Hermit21 5 December 2020 07: 38
                -3
                Can I get a direct quote? What you describe is similar to the principle of operation of "Rain" / "Barrier", but we left it to ukram. And since the 90s a lot of water has flowed under the bridge. And why use anti-cumulative ammunition, if it is obvious that something else is needed against OBPS?
                1. psiho117
                  psiho117 9 December 2020 01: 35
                  0
                  Quote: Hermit21
                  Can I get a direct quote?

                  I looked now - I did not find it. And most likely, it was not Basalt's report but the Steel Research Institute. But I haven't found this particular report now. The Internet on request gives anything but what I'm looking for. Considering the level of citation of the phrase "Research Institute of Steel" - this is not surprising, it is present in every second report, report or abstract on the topic of ammunition and armored vehicles recourse
                  And since the 90s a lot of water has flowed under the bridge

                  Physics has not changed lol
                  What you describe is similar to the principle of operation of "Rain" / "Barrier"

                  I describe the principle of operation of any existing active defense system - firing towards a flying warhead a missile element with GGE (shock nuclei, in the case of Trophy), detonating at some distance, and hitting the warhead with a beam of high-speed fragments / impact nuclei.

                  The effectiveness of KAZ against cumulative warheads is beyond doubt, because it was against them that they were developed.
                  Against BOPS (as it was originally intended), the second-third generation DZ is more or less effective ("Contact-5" -20%, "Relic" -40%, "Malachite" seems to be 90-100% effective, but about there is no information, horror as secret), and the very direct booking of the tank.
                  Now there are attempts to "teach" KAZ to work on high-speed kinetic penetrators - such as BOPS and impact nuclei, but this raises a number of problems - starting with the most commonplace that UV sensors do not respond to BOPS, and a radar designed to detect subsonic targets - does not see supersonic (and the one that sees - is on a par with aircraft AFAR), and ending with the fact that the kinetic energy of "crowbars" and impact nuclei is orders of magnitude higher than everything that can be produced by the KAZ elements fired.
                  In addition, modern BOPSs (the same M829A4) have a segmented core, and even with a direct impact of sufficient power, the projectile is more likely to lose several segments, but will not rotate an angle sufficient to reduce armor penetration.
                  why use anti-cumulative ammunition, if it is obvious that something else is needed against OBPS

                  Uh-huh, we need special ammunition, specifically to intercept the crowbars - the only attempt to implement it is the American KAZ Quick Kill, development has been going on for 13 years, no success is seen yet.
  • Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 2 December 2020 18: 20
    +2
    That's right, but before putting it on a massive scale, you need to make changes and update, and not carry out "modernization" practically changing the entire system. Weapons must defend against future threats, not fight past ones. By the way, the Arena does not need to be modernized, but a new one should be made on its basis, modernization is a small change.
    1. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 2 December 2020 18: 48
      +1
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      It is not necessary to modernize the arena, but to make a new one on its basis, modernization is a small change.

      Small change? But what about the common expressions: "deep modernization", when as a result, practically, a new model is created? "On its basis (!) To make a new one ..." - this is "deep modernization"! But you are still right ... When bringing the "Arena" to a small upgrade, you cannot do (!) ... a deep upgrade is necessary!
      1. Viktor Sergeev
        Viktor Sergeev 3 December 2020 08: 11
        +1
        The concept of "deep modernization" was invented in those days when it was impossible to do something new, an example is the Tu22M3, this is an absolutely new aircraft, but it was issued for the modernization of the Tu22. Real modernization is when, for example, new electronics, new missiles are put on an old base, but the basis remains the same. Everything at the Arena has to be changed, from the radar to the missiles, that is, to create a completely new system.
  • cmax
    cmax 6 December 2020 12: 33
    -1
    Quote: Nikolaevich I
    Well, well ... "to find fault" "Arena-M" is already a habit! In part, this is true ... in its “current” form, “Arena-M” cannot cope with the threat of defeat from the top, which is becoming more and more priority with “every year”! But, unfortunately, no one notices that Arena KAZ has the necessary potential for modernization! First of all, we need new "counter-ammunition" based on the old ones ... adjustable! The concept of such "counter ammunition" is already available! We need other PUs, albeit on the basis of the previous ones! "Variety" of striking elements ...: 1. tungsten fragments; 2. a beam of "shock nuclei"; 3. "throwable" plate ... (this is just for those who are afraid of being hit by "counter-ammunition" of their own ...) A more simplified, cheaper version of the "Arena" can also be used to protect armored vehicles less "priority" for the enemy, arranged according to the type Ukrainian "Barrier"! I repeat .... KAZ "Arena" has opportunities for further improvement and I can see them!

    It can equip at least with what is now available, and not wait for 2030.
  • Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 2 December 2020 09: 21
    -1
    If you look at the war in Syria and Karabakh, then 95% of the dangers are UAVs with guided munitions and ATGMs .... And there are no options to carry out any operations with minimal losses.
    1. Grigory_45
      Grigory_45 4 December 2020 00: 07
      +3
      Quote: Zaurbek
      And there are no options to carry out any operations with minimal losses.

      in the absence of a sane air defense - of course. So this is not a problem of the tank as such. Let's hang a couple more Needles pipes on it?
      1. Incvizitor
        Incvizitor 4 December 2020 02: 26
        +1
        The Koreans are hanged laughing
        1. Grigory_45
          Grigory_45 4 December 2020 22: 19
          +2
          and a lot of use, what do you think? The tank is deaf and blind in relation to the "air", the crew will not even understand where it came from - from a helicopter or a kamikaze drone attacked. It is necessary that the observer sat on the armor and turned his head 360 all the time
        2. psiho117
          psiho117 4 December 2020 23: 41
          +1
          Quote: Incvizitor
          The Koreans are hanged

          their tank looks more amusing, of course ... how else the second barrel was not stuck in, a la Mammoth tank laughing
  • KVU-NSVD
    KVU-NSVD 2 December 2020 10: 34
    +1
    If it is not possible to regularly equip all valuable equipment with KAZs, then it is necessary to develop some kind of fast-assembled simplified version of KAZ, suitable for installation on a tank, armored personnel carrier, infantry fighting vehicles, etc. Install them immediately before being sent to a zone of local conflict or potential danger (peacekeeping operation). Purchase at least 500 sets. This option will also have an export potential in poor countries. If there are explanations from experts, I will be grateful.
    1. Grigory_45
      Grigory_45 4 December 2020 00: 19
      0
      in fact, we see something like this in the form of the Israeli Trophy. There are not enough stars from the sky, supersonic ATGM and BOPS cannot be hit, it does not work at the top, but it saves from the most common threats, it is quite reliable and not gold in price. They put it on the Merkavas, and the Abrams, and the BRM Stryker (an even more simplified version)
    2. Incvizitor
      Incvizitor 4 December 2020 02: 32
      +1
      I think the best kaz should be on the newest tanks and use them in conflicts, and you can give older ones to any loyal allies without kaz.
  • Operator
    Operator 2 December 2020 10: 35
    -5
    KAZ "Arena" will not take off - the radar illuminates the tank as a target for anti-radar ammunition such as kamikaze drones. Wide-angle video cameras operating in the near infrared range and stereoscopic determination of the trajectory of attacking ammunition are our everything.

    Plus vertical mortars with guided rocket-propelled fragmentation grenades instead of any counter-ammunition ala mine MON.
  • iouris
    iouris 2 December 2020 10: 58
    +2
    Protection of tanks is no less important than missile defense.
    1. Viktor Sergeev
      Viktor Sergeev 3 December 2020 08: 12
      -4
      When you have ICBMs and missile defense tanks, you will only need for local wars with an obviously weak enemy, therefore, having an outdated tank protection system on all equipment is a waste of money.
      1. Incvizitor
        Incvizitor 4 December 2020 02: 34
        0
        Now tanks are used for local wars.
  • Tektor
    Tektor 2 December 2020 11: 11
    +5
    Now the tank and any other armored, and not so, equipment is an easy prey for barrage ammunition. And only its Arena-M configuration is capable of returning the minimum level of combat stability. It is a crime to send vehicles into battle without KAZ Arena-M. Doesn't the conflict in Karabakh teach anything?
  • Merry_Militarist
    Merry_Militarist 2 December 2020 11: 21
    +2
    And I would venture to suggest that the Arena KAZ, developed back in the 90s, simply does not reach the declared performance characteristics, or is not able to deal with new threats, at least at the moment, so the Ministry of Defense is in no hurry to buy it, the point is that our military-industrial complex likes to sell old things for new money, of course "unparalleled."
    The second question is, why not unify the KAZ tank fleet with the promising Afganit from Armatov, because it will be cheaper and speed up implementation, but no, we are persistently pulling on the old Arena ... so in the end, Drozd will be installed and be satisfied!
    1. Jacket in stock
      Jacket in stock 2 December 2020 11: 56
      +7
      Quote: Merry_Militarist
      the question of why not unify the KAZ tank fleet with the promising Afganit from Armatov,

      Maybe because the armature tower was developed immediately for the installation of an Afghanite, and the arena has to be pushed onto a ready-made tank, and there is so much on the tower.
  • Alexfly
    Alexfly 2 December 2020 12: 35
    +2
    Oh, something kayetsi for me that the product will be damp ...
  • Pavel57
    Pavel57 2 December 2020 12: 56
    +4
    The arena must be deployed against threats from above.
    1. Boris Chernikov
      Boris Chernikov 2 December 2020 17: 29
      -1
      well, so ammunition is turned
  • Basarev
    Basarev 2 December 2020 13: 15
    -4
    This is an outdated principle. You need to think about kinetic damage, a direct hit from a submunition, perhaps even without explosives. And shrapnel blasting is the last century.
    1. Boris Chernikov
      Boris Chernikov 2 December 2020 17: 30
      0
      what's the difference - the last or the century before last? the task is to ensure the defeat of a rocket or grenade + low cost of the complex
      1. Basarev
        Basarev 2 December 2020 17: 32
        +1
        It's more complicated. It is not so difficult to shoot down a rocket, but now there is a need to shoot down crowbars as well. And their shrapnel does not take.
        1. Boris Chernikov
          Boris Chernikov 2 December 2020 18: 00
          -2
          it means that you can modify the counter-ammunition, for example, instead of fragments, use covers by analogy with the Relic, which will either destroy the scrap itself, or force it to change the angle of attack .. + more fine tuning of the KAZ for jewelry work on aiming the ammunition at the scrap
  • Denimax
    Denimax 2 December 2020 15: 19
    -2
    Is it necessary to use ammunition for this ?! It is necessary to carry out tests, perhaps it will be enough to throw fine gravel from a pneumatic mortar. And all this will be replenished on the spot.
  • itvs
    itvs 2 December 2020 16: 31
    +7
    KAZ, which cannot withstand blows to the upper hemisphere, is already outdated. Apparently this is the main reason for not adopting the Arena. In the article not a word about it.
  • Boris Chernikov
    Boris Chernikov 2 December 2020 17: 33
    +3
    I think that everything is much simpler .. for normal operation of the KAZ the APU is needed .. In addition to this, the tankers ask for a remote control ZPU and a panoramic viewer ... and then there is the KAZ ... and then there is the T-14 .. I think that if we hear about the KAZ, then only in the form of "T-72B4 model 2021" for example .. where they will try to solve the problem in a comprehensive manner .. it is still time to modernize and capitalize old t-72B3 .. and if you do everything according to your mind, for example, put a tower from a T-90M with a KAZ, then it unifies BTV
  • Klingon
    Klingon 2 December 2020 17: 45
    +5
    Quote: Thrifty
    Here, we need to put our "genees" from the defense industry and the government into a tank without reactive armor and without KAZ, and fire a couple of shots from the Kornet at the tank! I am sure that KAZ will begin to be massively installed even on buggies in the army after that. ..

    Duc everything is done on the basis of * infantryman is cheaper than KAZ *. this is how it happens when the BARIGI is in the ministry at the helm. You understand capitalism wassat
  • Maksim_ok
    Maksim_ok 5 December 2020 20: 49
    0
    Damaging ammunition must be high-explosive as in the KAZ Iron Fist. Then there will be no such danger for your dismounted infantry operating in conjunction with tanks.
  • Comrade Kim
    Comrade Kim 7 December 2020 13: 51
    0
    Quote: Thrifty
    Here, it is necessary in a tank without reactive armor and without KAZ to seat our "genees" from the defense industry and the government, and give a couple of shots at the tank from Kornet

    This is not enough. A month ago they had to write out a komanovochka in Karabakh, and to include them in the crews of 72 as independent observers. Yes, look at how kamikaze drones buzz over their tops.