Military Review

Where did the coats of arms and the science about them come from?

231
Knowledge of heraldry very often helps us to figure out who or what exactly is depicted in certain ancient manuscripts or on sculptures ...



Heraldry arose primarily out of necessity. It was necessary to somehow identify the warriors on the battlefield, dressed in almost the same armor. So on the battlefield at Hastings, Duke William the Conqueror even had to take off his helmet so that his soldiers could recognize him! (Tapestry from the Museum in Bayeux, Normandy)

Tuhar replied: “O lord,
You see the leader of the squad,
Swift Tusa commander,
Which to death in terrible battles beats.
A little further - another fire burns,
And the sun is painted on it.
Under the banner, looking light and proud,
Glorious Fariburz, your uncle, rushes
Behind him Gustachm and knights are visible,
And a banner with the image of the moon.
Slave, like a pearl is light,
Whose silk braids are like resin
Drawn beautifully on the banner
That is the military banner of Bijan, son of Gibe,
Look, on a leopard there is a head,
What makes the lion tremble.
That shidusha warrior-grandee
What marches, on a mountain range similar.
Here is Huraz, in his hand is a lasso,
The boar is depicted on the banner.
And here is Gudarz, the gray-haired son of Kishwada.
On the lion - sparkling gold.
But on the banner - a tiger that looks wildly,
Rivniz-warrior is the lord of the banner.
Nastukh, Goodarza son, enters into battle
With the banner where the doe is drawn.
Bahram, Gudarza son, fiercely fighting,
Depicts his argali.
Talking about everyone - not enough a day
I don't have enough words worthy! "
("Shah-name" by Hakim Abulkasim Ferdowsi)


Coats of arms and heraldry. For a long time I wanted to talk about heraldry, but somehow everyone “didn’t reach” this topic. But recently I re-read one comment (that since there is a crescent moon on the banner, it is certainly Muslims) and realized that we cannot do without "enlightenment" in this area. Well, I'll start again with memories of how my interest in coats of arms and heraldry awoke.

Where did the coats of arms and the science about them come from?
"Dictionary of Heraldry" by Hert Oswald

And it so happened that somewhere in the mid-60s of the last century I subscribed to the magazines "Pioneer" and "Koster". And in one of them there was an excellent article on coats of arms and heraldry, illustrated with both black and white and color drawings on the back page of the cover. I liked her well, I just don't know how. Moreover, it was written in a very simple, understandable language, and even on such an interesting topic. At the end, a task was proposed: draw the coat of arms described in it and explain to whom this coat of arms could belong.

And there was this: in the scarlet head of the shield there is a golden lion, and in the azure field there are three ships. And I really wanted to participate in this competition, but hesitated. No, there were painted both the basic rules of heraldry, and how some figures should be placed. But this alone (to make the coat of arms correctly) was not enough, which I later became convinced of.

Several issues in a row in the magazine were printed emblems sent by the guys and their mistakes were sorted out, and as a result, the editorial board gave its own version of the emblem. Only he was wrong, as I now understand it. The lion was painted there as "from the zoo." And he had to be elongated, long-bodied: either "reclining" or walking, that is, a "leopard" lion!

But then I did not know this, I just gradually became interested in heraldry. Moreover, two books played a special role in the development of this interest. These are the German-language "Dictionary of Heraldry" 1984 by Hert Oswald and the English-language book "Heraldry. An Illustrated Encyclopedia "by Stephen Slater, 2002, fortunately, then translated into Russian in 2006.


"Heraldry. The Illustrated Encyclopedia by Stephen Slater

Well, now, after such a "preface" and a brief historiography, you can proceed, in fact, to the story of the coats of arms. And, in my opinion, it is necessary to start (which, by the way, neither Oswald nor Slater did!) With Ferdowsi's poem "Shah-name", which he, as you know, finished in 1011.

And there we can read descriptions of the flags of famous warriors, on which characteristic and only images used by them were already embroidered: the sun, moon, lion and tiger, wild boar and even a beautiful slave. That is, at that time it was already customary for the warriors of the East to distinguish each other by such emblems! True, these emblems were not depicted on shields, and were not inherited. Although, perhaps, they were transmitted, we just do not know for certain. That is, both knighthood itself and the custom of using various images on banners as emblems for identification, all of this came to Europe from the East and most likely through Constantinople.


A very interesting coat of arms, the symbolism of which will be discussed later. The main thing is that it belonged to Heinrich von Morungen - a German poet (and it is clear that a Christian) of the early Minnesang period, who died in 1222 (Miniature from the Codex Manes, 1305)

Now let's fast forward to Europe in 1066 for more of the Battle of Hastings and see what was depicted on the shields of the warriors of Duke Guillaume / William / William Bastard (he received the nickname Conqueror a little later than this battle itself!) And King Harold. The most common was the image of a cross with wriggling rays, but on Guillaume's shield, the cross was straight, but with expanding ends. The winged dragon is also found in warriors, but much less often. During the battle, there was a rumor that Guillaume was killed, and he had to take off his helmet with a nosepiece. And Count Eustace of Bologna, so that the soldiers of his Guillaume knew, needed to point his hand at him:

"There he is, William!"


Shields on the Battlefield of Hastings (Tapestry from the Museum in Bayeux, Normandy)

That is, by this time, the standardization of military equipment in Europe led to the fact that the warriors from head to toe, dressed in chain mail hauberks and highways, and their faces were covered with helmets with nose pads, became almost impossible to identify on the battlefield. However, much later the soldiers still did not have any coats of arms on their shields.


Figure of a knight from the pediment of a cathedral in Wales. The shield is embossed and clearly does not bear any coat of arms

Note. Umbo (lat. Umbo "protrusion, bulge") is a hemispherical or conical metal plate-patch, placed in the middle of the shield, protecting the warrior's hand from blows piercing the shield. Under the umbon there is often a handle by which the warrior holds a shield.

Another figure from the pediment of the same cathedral. Here the shield is absolutely smooth. Of course, one can assume that these figures had to sign. However, this is unlikely. After all, they are outside, not inside, and everyone should have understood that because of the English weather, they would have to be tinted regularly!

So, thirty years after the Battle of Hastings, Western European soldiers ended up within the walls of Constantinople, and it was then that the Byzantine princess Anna Comnina (1083ꟷ1148), who saw them, wrote in her "Alexiada" (as she called her diary) that the shields of the Frankish warriors were in the highest degrees smooth, shimmered with a convex ornament of cast brass, and even sparkled in the sun. She really liked these shields, but she did not write anywhere that, in addition to patterns, they had at least some figures or emblems that we could today consider heraldic. That is, the knights of Europe who went on the first crusade (1096-1099) did not have any coats of arms on their shields.


"The Dream of Henry of England". The Chronicles by John Worchester (British Library)

But we have a drawing in the Chronicle manuscript of the English historian and chronicler John Worcester (Wikipedia, by the way, calls him John of Worcester), which depicts a nightmare that King Henry I of England sees, where he is surrounded by soldiers with swords in their hands, eager for his death. And now pay attention: shields and they are decorated with patterns. But very soon they will also become heraldic symbols.


Enamel effigy (sculptural tombstone) of the Count of Anjou from the cathedral at Le Mans. (Museum of Archeology and stories Le Mans)

But then it happened that in 1127 (or 1128) King Henry I took it into his head to make his son-in-law Geoffroy Plantagenet, Count of Anjou, a knight. And (as reported by John Marmoutier, the author of the chronicle of his reign), in honor of this event, give him a blue shield, the surface of which was decorated with golden lions, standing on their hind legs. After his death, this shield began to adorn his magnificent enamel effigy (sculptural headstone) in the Cathedral of Le Mans. True, the mention of this gift dates back 30 years after the event itself.


Effigia (sculptured headstone) by William Longspy from Salisbury Cathedral, 1226


Effigia (sculptural tombstone) of William Longspey Jr. from Salisbury Cathedral, 1250. But his entire shield surface is smooth again. It can be seen that he has not yet earned a coat of arms for himself, but he could not claim the coat of arms of his ancestors!

Interestingly, the effigy (sculptural tombstone) of Geoffroy's illegitimate grandson, William Longspy (nicknamed the Long Sword), Earl (Earl) of Salisbury and the half-brother of kings Richard I the Lionheart and John (John the Landless), in the Cathedral of Salisbury, is also very equipped with a shield like his grandfather's shield. Geoffroy, Count of Anjou, died in 1151, William Longspey in 1226. Thus, it is the images of their shields that specialists usually cite as an example of the first real transfer of a coat of arms from one owner to another in history.


Effigia (sculptural tombstone) of Thomas Werkley from Bristol Cathedral, 1243. The coat of arms on the shield is quite readable.


Alexander Giffard, 1262 Effigia (sculptural headstone) in Boyton Cathedral.

And here the details of the design of the coat of arms are very voluminous and quite match the lions on the shield of the Count of Anjou. And (note) the symbolism of the images is already well developed. There are not just lions on the shield, but "leopard lions". And lambelle - "tournament collar". This is a sign that indicated the lateral lines of the genus when inheriting the coat of arms. He received the greatest distribution in the heraldry of Great Britain.

And from that moment, by the way, heraldry itself began, that is, the science of coats of arms. After all, someone needed to record all these donations and transfers. And keep information about them. And besides, make sure that the emblem of one knight cannot be appropriated by anyone else!

And special people - heralds - began to do this.

PS The author and administration of the site express deep gratitude to the British organization "The Medieval Combat Society" for the photos of the effigy they provided.

To be continued ...
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  1. Van 16
    Van 16 3 December 2020 05: 02
    +6
    Thanks for the interesting story!
    The first thing that came to mind was Ivanhoe and his shield, a tree uprooted with the inscription "dedechado". Looks like a strong impression in childhood, this book made))
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 3 December 2020 10: 03
      +4
      Ivanhoe and his shield, a tree uprooted and the inscription "desdechado"
      Ivan! hi
      About a year ago, I suggested that Vyacheslav Olegovich write a series of articles devoted to historical "blunders" in fiction, taking "Ivanhoe" as a basis. The idea was received with enthusiasm, but something went wrong ...
      1. kalibr
        3 December 2020 14: 48
        +2
        Romanov, Anton, a lot and blunders ... a lot. And to read them all carefully time is not enough !!! That didn’t work ...
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 3 December 2020 14: 51
          +1
          I thought so. Well, it didn't work out, and the Lord is with him.
        2. cat Rusich
          cat Rusich 4 December 2020 01: 14
          +1
          About coats of arms - you can remember and discuss Scottish kilts - each clan has its own drawing. And so "they meet by their clothes".
          1. kalibr
            4 December 2020 06: 21
            +1
            Quote: cat Rusich
            About coats of arms - you can remember and discuss Scottish kilts - each clan has its own drawing. This is how they are "greeted by their clothes."

            Their coats of arms differ from the traditional English ones!
  2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 December 2020 05: 14
    +10
    Living in the Urals, you rarely get to read articles in coffee for breakfast. Mostly on the subway or when I warm up my car. Today the stars have come together - articles, and even with an interesting topic !!!
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, thank you!
    Good day everyone !!! It's a shame it's not Friday!
    1. Hunter 2
      Hunter 2 3 December 2020 06: 04
      +6
      Solidarity with Vladislav! I live in Western Siberia and I also read the article with pleasure "under coffee". Vyacheslav Olegovich - Thank you hi ! High-quality material on an almost inexhaustible topic! good
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 3 December 2020 09: 17
        +5
        Quote: Hunter 2
        Solidarity with Vladislav! I live in Western Siberia and I also read the article with pleasure "under coffee". Vyacheslav Olegovich - Thank you hi ! High-quality material on an almost inexhaustible topic! good

        Good morning, Aleksey! hi
        Good morning everybody! hi
        Living in Krasnodar, I also read Vyacheslav Olegovich's article with pleasure and drew me to the vicinities of the vilely occupied Golan Heights by the Christ-selling force, to the Crusader castle))
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 3 December 2020 09: 35
          +7
          "Clouds go crooked over Sinai,
          The edge of harsh silence is embraced
          Forty miles from Tel Aviv,
          Homeland sentinels stand "(C)
          1. Van 16
            Van 16 3 December 2020 10: 24
            +5
            "The coat of arms is on his chest, there is a block and a loop, but there will be a hole there, like in the bottom of a ship" (c)
            smile
          2. Krasnodar
            Krasnodar 3 December 2020 18: 35
            +2
            Hello Anton! hi
            We get to the Black Sea
            And the nations will rejoice
            When over the blue sky
            A six-pointed star will rise fellow
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 3 December 2020 18: 43
              +2
              We get to the Black Sea
              Oh, don't make me laugh! You have not seen such sho in that Odessa ?!
              Albert! hi
              1. Krasnodar
                Krasnodar 3 December 2020 18: 51
                +2
                So why do we need Odessa when we love the Turkish coast)) But someone does not need this coast negative
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 3 December 2020 18: 57
                  +3
                  No, you're still a wrong Jew! Normal Jews prefer the English Riviera.
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 3 December 2020 19: 06
                    +1
                    Et on La Manche? ))
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 3 December 2020 19: 14
                      +2
                      Et on La Manche? ))
                      Aha
                      1. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 3 December 2020 19: 18
                        +3
                        Jews prefer where you can eat tasty and inexpensive laughing
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 3 December 2020 19: 25
                        +1
                        Belarus?!?!?
                      3. Krasnodar
                        Krasnodar 3 December 2020 19: 31
                        +1
                        And why not? laughing
                2. vladcub
                  vladcub 3 December 2020 20: 55
                  +1
                  Actually, there are now a lot of Arabs and Albert can't do figs there. What if they will offend our Alik?
                  I am against this
                  And they are not yet in Belarus.
                  1. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 3 December 2020 21: 52
                    +1
                    In Turkey? They sit quietly, like mice, they do not rock the boat)).
                  2. Undecim
                    Undecim 3 December 2020 22: 25
                    +3
                    Actually, there are a lot of Arabs there now
                    How long has it been from there?
                  3. Krasnodar
                    Krasnodar 4 December 2020 04: 21
                    +1
                    The last time was in 2017, a video at the intersection of Syrian children, according to the taxi driver, begging for money. Even if there are a lot of them, in the places where I "dwell", they either have nothing to do, or they are not allowed there, or the police are full.
  3. Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 3 December 2020 11: 18
    +5
    Hello everyone, I live in the Leningrad region and I also read Vyacheslav Olegovich's article with pleasure. laughing
    I don’t drink coffee, I don’t want to wander around the Golan Heights. But I'll probably pump up a seagull for such a thing ... With cranberries. smile
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 3 December 2020 18: 49
      +2
      Quote: Trilobite Master
      .. With cranberries. smile

      Yes spreading laughing Hello kind person hi
      1. Trilobite Master
        Trilobite Master 3 December 2020 18: 55
        +3
        My regards... hi
        At my workplace, I have two jars of jam - cranberries and viburnum. With tea - the very thing ...
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 3 December 2020 19: 06
          +2
          The most buzz - I agree)) And with homemade pancakes laughing
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 3 December 2020 20: 51
            +1
            Pancakes and even sour cream. With what pleasure I would screw it up now, but what is not there is not
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 3 December 2020 21: 50
              +1
              To Tabris! laughing There are good ones, by the way
  • kalibr
    3 December 2020 06: 57
    +7
    Vladislav! Friday will also be ...
    1. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 3 December 2020 08: 46
      0
      Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich! Very interesting. And it's Friday - tomorrow already. So we are waiting)))
      1. kalibr
        3 December 2020 10: 34
        +2
        It is clear what will happen, but I myself do not know which one. The choice of material for the administration!
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 December 2020 12: 39
      +2
      Quote: kalibr
      Vladislav! Friday will also be ...

      Thank you!
    3. vladcub
      vladcub 3 December 2020 18: 22
      +1
      Fine, waiting for Friday
  • Kozak Za Bugra
    Kozak Za Bugra 3 December 2020 05: 22
    +4
    Thanks for the article, a topic of interest to me for a long time, I look forward to continuing!
    1. kalibr
      3 December 2020 06: 56
      +5
      [quote = Kozak Za Bugra] Kozak Za Bugra (Igor Vasilievich)
      Everything will be gradual and in great detail. You will eventually be able to open a heraldic office!
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 3 December 2020 18: 25
        +3
        You are the king of arms, Anton archivist, and assistants?
  • Van 16
    Van 16 3 December 2020 05: 29
    +4
    An amateur's question, I wonder if modern coats of arms and emblems, for example, of football clubs, have anything to do with heraldry or are they simply drawn from the ceiling?
    1. Kozak Za Bugra
      Kozak Za Bugra 3 December 2020 05: 44
      +4
      I think that there is no relationship, heraldry has established itself as a hereditary strict system and the emblems of football clubs or brands they do not have inheritance, they are an identification emblem and as far as I can tell they are directly related to the name, or what kind of simplified symbolism, for example, the old Lada emblem or Jaguar ( on the first rook and on the second jaguar).
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 3 December 2020 19: 10
        +2
        KOZAK I don’t know about football, but in hockey I remember the following detail: the Swedish national team always had 3 crowns drawn on their uniforms. There was a time when some company paid them to play without crowns for two years.
        Canadians have a maple leaf. So it's more like a "brand name"
    2. kalibr
      3 December 2020 06: 54
      +8
      A very interesting question, Ivan! It means this: of course, when today "everyone is literate" and all professionals in everything, "amateur performance" happens often. But there are special heraldic chambers in many countries that draw emblems and coats of arms to order according to the rules of heraldry. Although ... "amateur performance" is flourishing. For example, my Penza now has a flag with the face of Christ the Savior ... But according to the rules of heraldry, it is impossible to impose the face of a saint on a flexible fabric! That is, it can be on a tough standard. On the flag - no! But ... they did as they wanted, despite the objections of the Heraldic Chamber of the Russian Federation.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 3 December 2020 10: 56
        +5
        And according to the rules of heraldry, you cannot put the face of a saint on a flexible fabric!
        I wonder why? Is it connected with the "Shroud of Turin"?
        1. kalibr
          3 December 2020 11: 14
          +6
          Oh Anton, the reason is simpler, but funny. The face of the saint on the cloth wriggling in the wind will grimace, "make faces", which is unacceptable for the saints!
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 3 December 2020 19: 13
        +2
        Q. Oh, and historically what was your emblem?
        1. kalibr
          3 December 2020 19: 24
          +3
          The coat of arms of the Penza region was very simple: a green shield on it, three sheaves in a row of wheat, rye, barley. Under Soviet power, there was also a clever coat of arms: a white shield on it, a golden clock gear (a hint of our watches and precision instruments), at the base there are three sheaves (continuity) in a gear a coastal gull in flight - we have a lot of them along the Sura and Mokhsha rivers ...
          1. vladcub
            vladcub 3 December 2020 19: 44
            +1
            Why didn't your "city fathers" return the historical coat of arms? In the Krasnodar Territory, they returned: the flag, coat of arms and anthem, but a little "politically correct": they removed the "basurman"
    3. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 3 December 2020 09: 22
      +4
      Quote: Van 16
      An amateur's question, I wonder if modern coats of arms and emblems, for example, of football clubs, have anything to do with heraldry or are they simply drawn from the ceiling?

      In my opinion, even the coats of arms of the Soviet republics are related to heraldry
      1. kalibr
        3 December 2020 10: 35
        +3
        Quote: Krasnodar
        even the coats of arms of the Soviet republics are related to heraldry

        Of course!
    4. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 3 December 2020 11: 14
      +6
      Quote: Van 16
      coats of arms and emblems, well, for example, football clubs, have anything to do with heraldry, or are they corny drawn from the ceiling?

      Who is like. Mostly from the ceiling, but there are coats of arms, the creators of which may have consulted with experts, since they clearly include the symbols of the cities or lands in which they are based. There are a lot of examples - the first thing that for some reason immediately came to mind - a rose on the coat of arms of FC Southampton.
      It was great fun for me when I studied the coats of arms of the cities and settlements of the Leningrad Region, registered in the Heraldic Chamber - of course, remakes ... Laughter through tears ...
      I recommend taking a walk around the site:
      https://geraldika.ru/regions/
      Have tons of fun ... laughing
      1. Van 16
        Van 16 3 December 2020 12: 28
        +5
        Thank you (everyone) for the answers, the site will have to look, it's interesting.
        1. depressant
          depressant 3 December 2020 14: 54
          +2
          But this is interesting to me:
          "The winged dragon is also found in warriors, but much less often."
          So, only on the flags of those who owned the dragons? Probably, not having a dragon in the stable, it was impossible to use his image in heraldry. This means that the number of dragons in those days was small.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 3 December 2020 15: 17
            +5
            This means that the number of dragons in those days was small.
            Undoubtedly! I'll tell you more: when compiling the "Book of the Day of Judgment" not a single one was found!
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 December 2020 16: 58
              +2
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              This means that the number of dragons in those days was small.
              Undoubtedly! I'll tell you more: when compiling the "Book of the Day of Judgment" not a single one was found!

              The mice ate out of offense !!! laughing
              1. vladcub
                vladcub 3 December 2020 19: 53
                +1
                They didn’t have the brains of Count William and, out of vexation, devoured dragons?
                Cats, green trees, and why are you needed here?
                "ponimash you" completely lost fear, and you are LODARI! Lozina you should be flogged, not fed !! Hee hee
        2. Phil77
          Phil77 3 December 2020 19: 44
          +3
          Greetings Ivan! And everyone, everyone, everyone! And in fact, from the point of view of heraldry, about the emblems of the following clubs? winked




      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 3 December 2020 19: 55
        +2
        And "Leicester" has a Potentilla flower.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 December 2020 20: 05
          +2
          I'm not a football fan, especially after FIFA 2018. But if memory serves, the Spaniards and the Portuguese have football teams with the emblems of the old days. I don't know how historical they are from a heraldic point of view.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 3 December 2020 20: 19
            +4
            There is just a glimmer of history on everything: even on stamps, even on badges, even on cream caps.
        2. Phil77
          Phil77 3 December 2020 20: 06
          +3
          Greetings Sergey! This one?

          Also a rather laconic logo of the club.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 3 December 2020 20: 17
            +2
            Yes. This is white cinquefoil. And its relative - erect cinquefoil - is the famous galangal root.
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 3 December 2020 20: 25
              +3
              Quote: Korsar4
              the famous galangal root.

              But in the center there is a fox. By the way, they are called foxes. laughing
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 3 December 2020 20: 56
                +3
                Sure. But this is who pays attention to what.
            2. Phil77
              Phil77 3 December 2020 20: 35
              +3
              Quote: Korsar4
              Yes

              Sergei, while there is time, what is your forecast for CSKA-Wolfsberg? Today and now? wink
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 3 December 2020 21: 04
                +2
                1-0. Suddenly the frost will work.
                1. Phil77
                  Phil77 3 December 2020 21: 24
                  +2
                  Quote: Korsar4
                  1-0. Suddenly the frost will work.

                  Already 0-1. Not in our favor. am
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 3 December 2020 21: 38
                    +1
                    The oracles have always made predictions. And they came true in different ways.
                    1. Phil77
                      Phil77 4 December 2020 06: 38
                      +2
                      Quote: Korsar4
                      The oracles have always made predictions. And they came true in different ways.

                      Greetings!
                      Very sad after yesterday's match. recourse
                      1. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 4 December 2020 07: 12
                        +2
                        Did not watch. Therefore, I was not upset.
  • Kozak Za Bugra
    Kozak Za Bugra 3 December 2020 05: 48
    +4
    At the expense of football clubs, I can only say about Argentina, and the emblems associated with the symbols or history of the club, for example, when one club split up, a new club (which had a stadium near the port) chose the colors of the first ship that entered the port.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 December 2020 18: 30
      +2
      If to the point.
      The system for identifying military units by applying emblems on shields is two or three thousand years older than heraldry as a science.
      Let's remember ancient Rome with the "Senate and people of Rome" or the inverted "V" of the Spartans! There are a lot of examples, but the systematization and bureaucratization began with the era of the Crusades.
      1. kalibr
        3 December 2020 18: 35
        +2
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        or the inverted "V" of the Spartans!

        This is not V. This is L Russian, or rather, the Greek lambda - Lacedaemon!
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 December 2020 19: 37
          +2
          Yes, Vyacheslav Olegovich, I know, but I thought if I blur out about "lambda" they won't understand me. I will write "L" not visually authentic.
          1. kalibr
            3 December 2020 19: 38
            +3
            Well, excuse me, the habit of teaching everyone to correct ...
            1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 December 2020 20: 06
              +1
              Yes, okay, I suffer from this too. I read it on the branch below. Anton has already mentioned the lambda.
            2. Phil77
              Phil77 3 December 2020 20: 18
              +3
              Quote: kalibr
              correct everyone ...

              Vyacheslav Olegovich, good evening!
              First of all, thanks! Thanks for the interesting article!
              Now the question: What is the correct name for the emblems of sports clubs? Emblems? Or emblems? In my opinion, the emblem is a more correct name. hi
              1. kalibr
                3 December 2020 20: 27
                +4
                Quote: Phil77
                In my opinion, the emblem is a more correct name. What about yours?

                To mine too ...
              2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 December 2020 21: 15
                +2
                Spanish and English football club emblems

                Barcelona

                Real Madrid

                Manchester United
                The years of formation are 1899, 1902 and 1878. In all cases, more than a century of history!
                I thought, but soon our football clubs will begin to celebrate centennials.
                Dynamo, CSKA and Spartak are the same age as the 20s of the last century !!!
                Spartak was founded in 1922, CSKA and Dynamo in 1923 !!!
  • Catfish
    Catfish 3 December 2020 06: 53
    +8
    Good morning friends! hi
    My usual thanks to Vyacheslav for the interesting material, but I suppose it will be even more exciting and beautiful further. smile
    But I, looking at the photographs of the tombstones, was somewhat surprised by the poses of the knights lying on their backs, twisted them in Photoshop and it turned out that - yes, these guys are sculptured in a standing position, and even quite in frivolous poses, somewhat inconsistent with the mournful purpose of Effigius ...
    1. Hunter 2
      Hunter 2 3 December 2020 07: 58
      +4
      Quote: Sea Cat


      Konstantin hi Just now I noticed ... Ballet position number 4 belay ! Damn dancers ... wassat
      1. Krasnodar
        Krasnodar 3 December 2020 09: 24
        +4
        This, Alexey, because nothing bothers them anymore laughing
        1. Hunter 2
          Hunter 2 3 December 2020 09: 27
          +4
          Albert what We are thinking about the Eternal! And you "vulgarized" everything again crying am wink
        2. Catfish
          Catfish 3 December 2020 09: 50
          +5
          "Soul, heart all captivated;
          One thing was missing.
          Why is there one?
          So, knickknacks, nothing.
          Nothing or very little
          All the same - it was missing. "(C) laughing
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ 3 December 2020 13: 46
            +2
            In the sense - all on the pole?
            1. Hunter 2
              Hunter 2 3 December 2020 14: 25
              +2
              Quote: Aviator_
              In the sense - all on the pole?

              It's called Pole Dance bully A very interesting sport, and most importantly, there is a lot of entertainment. fellow
            2. Catfish
              Catfish 3 December 2020 18: 36
              +1
              What else can you do? wink
            3. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 3 December 2020 20: 30
              0
              And you are a sadist: string girls on a pole.
              Although they are mediocre in appearance, they are not worth the pole. And the sixth can be pulled
            4. Phil77
              Phil77 3 December 2020 20: 39
              +4
              Quote: Aviator_
              In the sense - all on the pole?

              Dear Aviator, I immediately remembered! Immediately! laughing laughing laughing
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 3 December 2020 19: 17
        +1
        Two Rudolf Nureyev, and where are Kshisinskaya and Plisetskaya?
        1. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 3 December 2020 20: 25
          0
          They lingered in the dressing room
          And then not Nureyev, but Petipa and Rudolf Nuriev
    2. kalibr
      3 December 2020 08: 00
      +4
      No, these are just lying!
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 3 December 2020 08: 28
        +5
        No, Olegych, how in such a situation it is necessary to lie correctly, no one of us can share our own experience yet. And thank God. laughing
    3. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 3 December 2020 10: 57
      +6
      Quote: Sea Cat
      These guys are sculpted in a standing position, and even quite in frivolous poses, somewhat inconsistent with the mournful appointment of Effigius.

      Still lying down. smile
      Otherwise, how does Sir Thomas Berkeley hold the shield and does not fall? Yes, and pillows under the heads of a standing dead woman, who, apparently, wants to go to the toilet, to no one. smile
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 3 December 2020 19: 22
        +2
        Otherwise, how does Sir Thomas Berkeley hold the shield and does not fall?

        There is an old system called "carnations and carnations". And as for the toilet, the question is still controversial, Alexei believes that this is just a ballet. And what difference does it make if the rat in the head still beats everything!
  • Ilya22558
    Ilya22558 3 December 2020 08: 42
    +4
    Thank you so much for the article! I will look forward to continuing. Very interesting!
  • Trilobite Master
    Trilobite Master 3 December 2020 10: 47
    +5
    Greetings, colleagues. hi
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, a great topic, indeed, it's high time to cover it, I hope the cycle will be long and informative.
    Immediately I ask you to correct the inaccuracy: the penultimate effigy belongs to Thomas Berkeley, yours - Verkeley, probably a typo. Here is the coat of arms of their kind:
    1. kalibr
      3 December 2020 11: 17
      +4
      A typo, of course. There was an English "B", I decided to "save", translate into Russian. did not, and forgot that it was "not that B" ...
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 3 December 2020 10: 48
    +4
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    I want to note that in the question of defining "friend or foe" on the battlefield, the first were probably the Spartiots. Unless, of course, the "lambda" on the boards is not a later "fake"
    1. kalibr
      3 December 2020 11: 17
      +4
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Unless, of course, the "lambda" on the boards is not a later "fake"

      No, L is not - Lacedaemon - is known from that time.
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 3 December 2020 12: 20
      +5
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      in the question of defining "friend or foe" on the battlefield, the first were probably the Spartiots.

      Their question of defining friend or foe was not acute, if at all. A dense formation, in front - strangers, in them you poke a spear, on the right, left and behind - your own, in them it is inconvenient to poke a spear, and it is not necessary.
      The question of identifying their own arose sharply when the horse masses began to fight among themselves - the situation on the battlefield changed very quickly, individual detachments moved back and forth, attacked, retreated, flanked, attacked again in different directions, the line of contact, as such, was not - you will not understand who where. This is where the banners with the corresponding colors and images came in handy. I looked around - yeah, there are ours, there are enemies. To advance - there, retreat - there. All clear. smile
      And, of course, tournaments - there is a place for all these show-off topics, there is an individual standings. smile
      And lambda and spartiots, I think, had, for the most part, the meaning of intimidating opponents.
      As there?
      Maybe they are showing off from their stupid insolence? ... Or maybe worse: they think everything, but they take risks. They want to bring horror. Say, if `` Black cat '', then paws up and do not chirp!

      Rather so. Modestly, tastefully, but "THIS IS SPARTA !!!". smile
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 3 December 2020 12: 33
        +5
        It is, of course, so, but if we remember that Sparta is the only European culture in which the shield had a status value ... Although, Plutarch could have somewhat exaggerated laughing
        1. kalibr
          3 December 2020 13: 43
          +5
          Here it is written very interestingly about them: Spartan Warrior 735-331 BC (Osprey Warrior 163
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 December 2020 19: 47
            +1
            "with the shield or on it"
            Shit for the Spartans, a thing not only of status, but one of the personal, like a spear.
  • Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 3 December 2020 11: 01
    +7
    I remembered:
    Scarlet shield in my coat of arms
    And there is no sign in the bright field.
    But he is entrusted to my fate,
    The latter is a kind of daring will ...
    There is no deceiving way
    Who sleeps within the walls of Jerusalem,
    Who is faithful to my family
    Who I am called, who I am loved.
    And - the path of madness of all hopes,
    The inevitable path of pride;
    In it is the flame of fiery clothes
    And the sorrow of the rejected desert ...
    But what is it given to me to write in the shield?
    Dates of darkness or roses of the temple?
    Tubala copper seal
    Or Hiram's acacia?

    I do not know who the author is, but I keep a postcard with this poem .. That was a long time ago.
    1. kalibr
      3 December 2020 11: 22
      +6
      This is a poem by our poetess Elizaveta Ivanovna Dmitrieva. The literary pseudonym Cherubina de Gabriac.
      1. depressant
        depressant 3 December 2020 15: 09
        +2
        Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, for mentioning her! I tried to remember the pseudonym - it didn't work. The lady is smart. Such sublime poetry! The male part of the Moscow elite went crazy over her in absentia, and when the publisher saw her firsthand, a plain little donkey, he got angry and stopped printing. Such are you, little men!
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 3 December 2020 15: 25
          +5
          Such are you, little men!
          Come on! Maria Semenova also does not shine with female charm, however ...
          1. depressant
            depressant 3 December 2020 16: 12
            +3
            Anton ... Whom do you mean? Ballerina? )))
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 3 December 2020 16: 15
              +3
              The writer, Lyudmila Yakovlevna.
              But you can also remember Ranevskaya.
              1. depressant
                depressant 3 December 2020 17: 07
                +4
                I looked. Do not be born beautiful, but be born a man. In fact, Maria Semyonova's facial features are noble. A more puffy hairstyle, a little makeup, a decent outfit, and you can go to Buckingham Palace, it will be more interesting what you find in it. And yet you have to read "Wolfhound". Although I don't like fantasy. The critical realism of the Sniper Saga is closer to me.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 3 December 2020 17: 11
                  +3
                  And yet you have to read "Wolfhound".
                  "Valkyrie" is more interesting in my opinion.
                  1. depressant
                    depressant 3 December 2020 17: 58
                    +3
                    Well yes. In the same place, I suppose, about a woman)))
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 3 December 2020 18: 06
                      +3
                      Sure! But this is not the point, but the fact that the fantasy component is practically absent.
                      But, to be honest, I like Sapkovsky's work more than Semenova.
                      1. depressant
                        depressant 3 December 2020 19: 10
                        +5
                        Anton, you are opening a whole new world for me ... Do you really have to read? What is there in this world? I am interested not so much in adventures as in a person's coming to himself, true, and then in fixing the state. Here's how on the coat of arms: I painted a lizard on it, and everyone knows who you are)))
                        For example, everyone knows that the people of the Chernyshevsky district of the Trans-Baikal Territory descended from lizards - they have such a coat of arms. They walked and came to an understanding of their essence.
                      2. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 3 December 2020 19: 21
                        +3
                        What is there in this world? I am interested not so much in adventures as in a person's coming to himself, true, and then in fixing the state.
                        1. If you remove the fantasy component, a good description of the High Middle Ages
                        2. This is also present
                        3. If you don't like it - quit.
              2. Astra wild2
                Astra wild2 3 December 2020 20: 19
                +3
                Lyudmila Yakovlevna, I'm also cool to fantasy, and Mitchell and Small can constantly re-read
              3. Van 16
                Van 16 3 December 2020 20: 59
                +2
                "The critical realism of the Sniper Saga is closer to me"
                Semyonova has different books. This definition fits "Same and Skunk". In general, she has very interesting works.
                1. depressant
                  depressant 3 December 2020 21: 04
                  +2
                  Well, strained))) they threw the list directly, now I will not get out))
              4. cat Rusich
                cat Rusich 4 December 2020 01: 02
                +2
                Quote: depressant
                And yet you have to read "Wolfhound". Although I don't like fantasy. ...
                And personally I like "Wolfhound".
                About "Wolfhound" a series of books - I recommend reading starting with "Istovik-stone" (about the childhood of the Wolfhound). And here cinema "Wolfhound" the floor - in comparison with the book "Wolfhound". There are also books about the heroes of the Wolfhound's companions. About heraldry there is also an episode - Segwans, on their ships, as coats of arms and flags were sail... Each clan-clan of Segvans had a strictly defined sail flag - and the older the clan-clan, the simpler the coloring of the sail - the oldest and most revered clan-clan had a sail in a "blue and white checkered" - they did not know other colors when the clan-clan appeared ... The veins (Slavs) too had its own heraldry in the form of embroidery on shirts.
                1. Van 16
                  Van 16 4 December 2020 15: 06
                  0
                  "the movie" Wolfhound "below the plinth"
                  Yeah. The series "Young Wolfhound" and that will be more interesting. Also, of course, not so-so, but all is better.
          2. Phil77
            Phil77 3 December 2020 19: 54
            +4
            Good evening Lyudmila Yakovlevna! Semyonova, let's remember our legendary center?
            1. depressant
              depressant 3 December 2020 20: 11
              +3
              Good evening, Seryozha)))
              The girl was not lucky to be born when necessary. Now I would have walked the catwalk. I remember that in Germany there was one similar fashion model, suitably processed by stylists. Everyone admired: an alien! ))
              1. Phil77
                Phil77 3 December 2020 20: 21
                +3
                Quote: depressant
                unlucky to be born when necessary

                Come on, two-time Olympic champion, three-time world, ten-time Europe. ZMS of the USSR.
                Great career, is this a joke? winked
                1. depressant
                  depressant 3 December 2020 21: 12
                  +5
                  Well, what's the joke? Professional sports do not really paint a woman. A sports career ends quickly, cups are in the cupboard, medals and certificates on the wall, and then life as it is. After all, not everyone is open to becoming a State Duma deputy or a wife of talking heads. And simple, normal guys find suitable girls nearby, the years are gone ...
                  1. Phil77
                    Phil77 4 December 2020 13: 59
                    +3
                    Good afternoon, Lyudmila Yakovlevna!
                    It happens in different ways, in different ways. For example, * GDR's everything * -Katarina Witt.

                    Probably a lot depends on the type of sport, though? Volleyball players ... quite pretty girls. good
                    1. Phil77
                      Phil77 4 December 2020 14: 09
                      +3
                      Quote: Phil77
                      Volleyball players

                      How do you like this girl? Vinifer Fernandez from the Dominican Republic.

                      Just an example.
                    2. depressant
                      depressant 4 December 2020 15: 59
                      +1
                      Seryozha, actually I don't care, I'm not a man or a lesbian))) You'd better ask Vyacheslav Olegovich how Fernandez or Witt is to him, he's a well-known lover of women with us)))
                      I suppose Katarina will burst into rapturous memories wassat
                    3. Phil77
                      Phil77 4 December 2020 16: 11
                      +1
                      Quote: depressant
                      I do not care

                      Damn, even in my thoughts it was not!
                      Just about the beauty of women in sports. No more. love Alas for me. recourse
                    4. depressant
                      depressant 4 December 2020 16: 20
                      +1
                      Come on! It's a joke - from my side))) And Olegovich should be questioned - there, you see what he writes below: "You can't trample on nature!" What is he, our Vyacheslav Olegovich, eh? ))) As for Katharina Witt, I vaguely remember some kind of doping scandal.
  • kalibr
    3 December 2020 15: 29
    +5
    Quote: depressant
    Such are you, little men!

    You cannot argue against nature! He imagined her completely different from her poetry. She was also the first prankster to prank him over the phone. She invented the whole biography for herself and he printed it exactly as ... Cherubina de Gabriac. And then suddenly enters the office ... not a beauty and ... so he has a roof and went. People are stupid, you know, and very much even. Even the editors of literary magazines.
    1. depressant
      depressant 3 December 2020 16: 10
      +4
      Critically so, captivating ...
      And also, as far as I remember, she contacted Chukovsky to write his works instead. What kind of people were, however, at the beginning of the last century. When capitalism was still young and saw great opportunities for itself. It was a spirit-lifting time - both in art and in science. Hmmm ...
      Everyone passes by the possibilities, and everything passes.
  • BAI
    BAI 3 December 2020 11: 08
    +2
    That is, by this time, the standardization of military equipment in Europe led to the fact

    Probably, it would be more correct to say when the feudal strife began. Naturally, 2 neighboring counties (principalities in Russia) dressed and armed themselves in the same way. But foreign armies were immediately identified, there were no problems.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 3 December 2020 11: 26
    +5
    And, in my opinion, it is necessary to start (which, by the way, neither Oswald nor Slater did!) With Ferdowsi's poem "Shah-name", which he, as you know, finished in 1011.

    And there we can read descriptions of the flags of famous warriors, on which characteristic and only images used by them were already embroidered: the sun, moon, lion and tiger, wild boar and even a beautiful slave. That is, at that time it was already customary for the warriors of the East to distinguish each other by such emblems! True, these emblems were not depicted on shields, and were not inherited. Although, perhaps, they were transmitted, we just do not know for certain. That is, both knighthood itself and the custom of using various images on banners as emblems for identification, all of this came to Europe from the East and most likely through Constantinople.

    And here you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, fall into a delusion that was widespread until the end of the XNUMXth century.
    Obviously, you are not the first. Back in 1671, the French priest Claude François Ménestrier, a very authoritative specialist in heraldry for his time, wrote the book "The True Art of Heraldry and the Origin of Coats of Arms." In this book, he cites about two dozen versions. Some deduced the custom of composing coats of arms from Adam, Noah and the ancient Greeks. However, by the end of the XNUMXth century, all these versions, including the eastern one, were scrapped by historians - heraldists, and if you go through Russian (Lukomsky, Arseniev), English (Slater), Italian (Santa Mazzini), French (Pasturo), German ( Neubeker) sources, then they all say the same thing - heraldry is a system of iconographic codification of a strictly defined pyramid of the social hierarchy of feudal society, which helped to identify an individual in the appropriate social group, and the group, in turn, at the corresponding level of the social system.
    That is, heraldry is an exclusively European product and owes its appearance to the socio-economic changes taking place in the European feudal society.
    1. kalibr
      3 December 2020 13: 45
      +3
      Quote: Undecim
      That is, heraldry is an exclusively European product and owes its appearance to the socio-economic changes taking place in the European feudal society.

      And Ferdowsi's poem just doesn't count? By the way, even Slater has one of the East emblems. And today he is perhaps the most authoritative European coat of arms.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 3 December 2020 14: 30
        +5
        And Ferdowsi's poem just doesn't count?
        Yes, Vyacheslav Olegovich, it doesn't count. It describes not coats of arms, but vexilloids - objects in the form of a flag used by countries, organizations or individuals, and if, according to the science of vexillology, an object that performs the functions of a flag, but differs in some respects, usually in its appearance. Vexilloids are a characteristic feature of traditional societies and often look like a banner with an emblem at the top, such as an animal figure.
        This is a slightly different historical discipline.
        As for Slater, he is not more authoritative than Pasturo or Fox - Davis. And Slater does not claim that the origin of European heraldry is Eastern.
        1. kalibr
          3 December 2020 14: 44
          +3
          So I did not write anywhere that the emblem on the flag and the emblem on the coat of arms are identical. But the very idea of ​​personal identification and the emblem of which one can be proud of is Eastern, as well as the idea of ​​spiritual-knightly orders, which in the East again appeared earlier than in the West. I'm just too lazy now to go into my own book "The Crusaders", where all this is described in great detail.
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 3 December 2020 14: 57
            +7
            But the very idea of ​​personal identification and the emblem of which one can be proud is Eastern
            The oldest known vexilloids are ancient Egyptian ones, which are on Narmer's pallets. And the ancient Greeks on their hoplons just didn’t draw. Each hoplite had its own pattern.
            As for your book, if you had come across Pasturo or Arseniev instead of Slater while writing it, the opportunity for us to discuss with you today would have been lost.
            1. kalibr
              3 December 2020 15: 31
              +3
              Quote: Undecim
              As for your book, if you had come across Pasturo or Arseniev instead of Slater while writing it, the opportunity for us to discuss with you today would have been lost.

              It may very well be. But you just can't reread all the books. That is why a list of references is given at the end so that one could judge the source base.
              1. Undecim
                Undecim 3 December 2020 16: 18
                +3
                But you just can't reread all the books.
                There is a figure that a total of about 130 million books have been written on Earth. Not much, it seems.
          2. vladcub
            vladcub 3 December 2020 21: 10
            +2
            And I wrote a lot and I don't remember everything
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 3 December 2020 12: 08
    +5
    Effigia (sculptural tombstone) of William Longspey Jr. from Salisbury Cathedral, 1250. But his entire shield surface is smooth again. It can be seen that he has not yet earned a coat of arms for himself, but he could not claim the coat of arms of his ancestors!
    Probably yes. His father became Earl of Salisbury by marrying El of Salisbury, the sole heiress of a wealthy county. Due to the fact that he, being considered the titular earl of Salisbury, had no rights to possessions before his mother's death, died before her, the family coat of arms is not presented on the effigy.
    1. kalibr
      3 December 2020 13: 46
      +5
      Anton - Well done, I take off my cap with headphones! It's minus 19 in Penza. It's cold for a hat!
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 3 December 2020 13: 59
        +5
        Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich! In general, a very interesting story happened there.
        In St. Petersburg: -2
        1. kalibr
          3 December 2020 14: 41
          +5
          You have a sea nearby, a sea climate. Ours is continental and sharply ...
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 3 December 2020 14: 46
            +5
            Well, yes, and summer without sun, and winter without snow. Although, I like it.
            1. kalibr
              3 December 2020 15: 32
              +4
              We also have a problem with snow now ...
            2. Catfish
              Catfish 3 December 2020 19: 11
              +3
              "In Leningrad, March, April,
              That drops, and then a blizzard.
              Ice drifts happen in May
              But we still have the same goal.
              Choosing a place between the ice floes,
              We dive as one. "(C)
              That's for sure, we were once visiting you on May, sat on the beach near Petropavlovka, drank port, and ice drift along the Neva at full speed. But all the same it was cozy, behind a fortress, opposite "Kronverk", and all around the water. drinks
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 3 December 2020 19: 28
                +2
                This spring, in my opinion, even the sludge from Ladoga did not come.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 3 December 2020 19: 31
                  +3
                  How is it now? We have five centimeters of ice on the pond, the "sufferers" are already sitting with fishing rods. But there is almost no snow.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 3 December 2020 19: 34
                    +3
                    Like on Mars, it's cold and dusty.
                    At least in my area.
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 3 December 2020 19: 38
                      +4
                      Disgusting. I remember the first year of service, the city of Bikin - the same picture.
    2. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master 3 December 2020 17: 24
      +4
      So, I'm probably confused about something. William Longspe, the one who supported King John Lackland, is William Sr. And the one who is buried without a coat of arms is his son William Jr. It turns out that his body was brought from Egypt, or what? He seemed to have died there ... It's funny ...
      And here's another fun fact from Wiki.
      The tomb of Earl William (the Elder) was opened in 1791. In it, among other things, was found a well-preserved corpse of a rat with traces of arsenic, found inside his skull. The rat is currently on display at Salisbury Cathedral and the South Wiltshire Museum.

      That is, the rat ate the count's brains and died of arsenic? Or first devoured the brains, settled in the skull, lived there quietly, and then dug up arsenic somewhere, and came home to die? smile
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 3 December 2020 17: 44
        +4
        Perhaps a part of the body or the ashes of the deceased is buried under the effigy. The most interesting thing is that there was also the third William, the grandson of the first, whom El's grandmother also survived! And due to the fact that all the other male descendants made a spiritual career, the county again inherited the "spinning wheel"!
      2. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 3 December 2020 17: 47
        +7
        Or first devoured the brains, settled in the skull, lived there quietly, and then dug up arsenic somewhere, and came home to die?
        This version seems to be the most realistic.
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 3 December 2020 18: 24
          +4
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          This version seems to be the most realistic.

          Well, then we can safely assume that this is not the first generation of rats that lived in the specified place.
          Two rats meet.
          - Where are you from?
          - I'm from Salisbury.
          - I ask, where were you born?
          - In Salisbury.
          “We were all born here in Salisbury. I ask where exactly.
          - You were born in the county, and I was born in a graph. The fifth generation of our family lives in it.
          - Eat arsenic, vile (swear word)!
        2. Undecim
          Undecim 3 December 2020 19: 00
          +5
          Arsenic practically does not accumulate in the brain and heart.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 3 December 2020 19: 06
            +2
            That's why I said that the rat was poisoned outside the sarcophagus.
      3. vladcub
        vladcub 3 December 2020 18: 11
        +5
        Misha, hello. This is one of two things: 1) Villami Longspe's brains were stuffed with arsenic. In this case, who and why?
        2) the brains were stuffed with honey, which the rat wished: "the last meal" to complete. But in this case, see point 1
      4. kalibr
        3 December 2020 18: 38
        +2
        Well, you know, I don't know anything like that ...
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 3 December 2020 18: 51
          +2
          This is what Vicki writes. smile
          1. kalibr
            3 December 2020 18: 52
            +4
            What horror! True, I also read it sometimes, but this ... brrr!
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 3 December 2020 18: 58
              +5
              If it's true, you can dig around and dig up a photo of this rat on the Internet ... The only question is, why put it on display in a museum? If this is subtle English humor, then ... I don't know ... Why then not expose the worms from the grave of Richard III? Why are they worse? laughing
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 3 December 2020 19: 41
                +3
                "--What is worse than Georgians?
                - Worse than Armenians. "(C)
            2. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 3 December 2020 20: 01
              +3
              Vyacheslav Olegovich, I almost constantly "graze" in Vika, and Viktor Nikolaevich scolds the Russian Vika. You have an advantage: you know English and can read the English version of the Wiki
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 December 2020 20: 11
                +2
                Believe me, Vera - according to the statements of native English speakers, their Wiki is no better! laughing
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave 3 December 2020 20: 16
                  +3
                  German is better, at least in terms of the volume of material.
                2. kalibr
                  3 December 2020 20: 31
                  +2
                  Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                  their wikis are no better!

                  In a way, better. Many materials of our WIKI are taken from English, and in abbreviated (and strongly!) Versions.
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 3 December 2020 20: 47
                    +5
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Many materials of our WIKI are taken from English,

                    They also take from us in the part that concerns Russia, in particular its history. So one garbage - what is there, what we have. You need to check everything, and if you are too lazy to check, then tell your colleagues honestly and directly that you took it on Vicki and did not check it.
                  2. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master 3 December 2020 20: 51
                    +3
                    By the way, the British Vicky also mentions a rat and gives the same link. smile
                  3. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                    Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 December 2020 20: 56
                    +4
                    Quote: kalibr
                    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
                    their wikis are no better!

                    In a way, better. Many materials of our WIKI are taken from English, and in abbreviated (and strongly!) Versions.

                    I mean that both ours and theirs are scolding her. Moreover, both of them operate in it.
                    1. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 3 December 2020 21: 28
                      +3
                      Truly so!
      5. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 3 December 2020 20: 09
        +2
        Michael, if I didn’t know you, and I have known you for a long time, I thought that you would be joking
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master 3 December 2020 20: 44
          +3
          For the sake of interest, I googled - I did not find more information about this rat. In Wiki there is a link to the museum's website, I crawled around the site - there is nothing there. Rather, there is about the grave of William Longspy, about the rat not. So, maybe someone's joke, or maybe it's true, just the information is worn out. In any case, this "exhibit" smacks of a hefty bad taste. Although from people writing and reading about the adventures of poop everything can be expected. smile
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 3 December 2020 21: 31
            +3
            Although from people writing and reading about the adventures of poop everything can be expected.
            "The rat and its amazing adventures, in the family crypt of the withered branch of the Platangenets"
            Rumor has it that in the storerooms of our Kunstkamera there are still not such exhibits.
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master 3 December 2020 21: 57
              +4
              Okay, rat, was she or was not her ...
              I think she did, but how can her life compare with the amazing and fascinating life of Richard III's "pets"? Mute witnesses of his struggle and victories, his gains and heavy losses, they were with him both in the days of glory and in the days of exile, together with him they were crowned in Westminster Cathedral and did not leave him after his death on Bosworth Field. all his friends and supporters turned away, they remained with him, even in the grave ... Faithfulness overcoming death. Pietate vincere mortem. Sounds nice...
              This is who you need to write about - about worms!
              Don't ask me - I won't. Neither write nor read. laughing
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 3 December 2020 22: 12
                +3
                Don't ask me - I won't. Neither write nor read.
                You will be, Mikhail! For helminths are a constant companion of "homo sapiens".
                1. Trilobite Master
                  Trilobite Master 3 December 2020 22: 45
                  +4
                  You must spoil the mood like that, Anton!
                  That is, my articles about Rurik are articles about his parasites? What a nightmare...
                  Everything, no more to the keyboard!
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 3 December 2020 22: 58
                    +4
                    You must spoil the mood like that, Anton!
                    I can. Ask Nikolai.
                    Your articles about Rurik are great !!! But someone also needs to write about cloaca macxima ... Otherwise, the picture will be incomplete.
                    1. Trilobite Master
                      Trilobite Master 3 December 2020 23: 50
                      +3
                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      I can.

                      Compared to yesterday's “Zenith” - so little things. laughing
                      Okay, I have already, although the world will never be the same for me ... sad
                      I'll go bainki. Good night. smile
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 3 December 2020 23: 55
                        +3
                        Goodnight!
            2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 4 December 2020 03: 50
              +3
              Quote: 3x3zsave
              Although from people writing and reading about the adventures of poop everything can be expected.
              "The rat and its amazing adventures, in the family crypt of the withered branch of the Platangenets"
              Rumor has it that in the storerooms of our Kunstkamera there are still not such exhibits.

              Your Hermitage has solved the problem of rats by introducing cats !!! Being in your city and visiting the Winter Palace, I have repeatedly seen insolent mustachioed men in the service of history in the antique hall. Apparently closer to the rats away from the Chinese.
  • depressant
    depressant 3 December 2020 15: 34
    +5
    Can an animal reproduce on a coat of arms?
    Can!
    Once upon a time there was one camel on the coat of arms of Chelyabinsk. And then, when the number of caravans through this area increased, the lone camel finally chose a suitable pair, multiplied, and there were three camels on the coat of arms.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 3 December 2020 19: 59
      +3
      Quote: depressant
      Can an animal reproduce on a coat of arms?
      Can!
      Once upon a time there was one camel on the coat of arms of Chelyabinsk. And then, when the number of caravans through this area increased, the lone camel finally chose a suitable pair, multiplied, and there were three camels on the coat of arms.

      This is on purpose, so that northern neighbors do not ask themselves with sable! laughing

      Coat of arms of the Chelyabinsk region!

      There is exactly one camel with two humps !!! Where are the other two?
      1. depressant
        depressant 4 December 2020 21: 29
        +2
        According to history, there were. And then, probably, such as me, the scoffers began to make fun, and two camels had to be removed. Or maybe two older ones died of old age, and this is the youngest, their child)))
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 December 2020 05: 14
          +2
          Dead of old age! Passed !!!
          With utmost respect, but ordinary Chelyabinsk guys with a "cast-iron" character will not give us a "similar version" !!!
          I will not be surprised that on the border of the Sverdlovsk region a couple of them are already tearing off the wings of griffins, and the third one writes - "sho the rat with the kysy Sverdlavskys answered for the camels" !!! laughing
          I could not resist a little, with sincere respect! Good morning!!!
          1. depressant
            depressant 5 December 2020 09: 04
            +2
            Good morning!! I have not woken up yet ((
            1. depressant
              depressant 5 December 2020 09: 52
              +2
              Sorry, it was an answering machine. The whole night there was no sleep because of the cold, fell asleep only in the morning - the wind of change, damned, blew from all the window cracks, I had to get up, turn on the gas, light it. Having warmed up, I lay down, but everything was repeated again. She fell asleep only in the morning. Now the task is to seal the windows. The moment was missed. Winter came suddenly, like everything in this life.
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 5 December 2020 10: 33
                +1
                God help you in your endeavors!
                Best regards, Kote.
  • Looking for
    Looking for 3 December 2020 17: 19
    -8
    Shpakovsky. Explain to me please. The "benefits" of such articles ??? !!!
    1. kalibr
      3 December 2020 18: 44
      +6
      Alexander! People have a strong need to learn something new, not burdensome for the brain, but interesting in perception, giving satisfaction in its process. It gets boring to read all the time that everyone is deceiving us, that the Americans are bad, that they are still digging the sea in Ukraine, and we will not bury the Nord Stream in any way ... People are tired of this. And they want to relax on such materials. I would like to have positive emotions in the process of obtaining information. And they get them + some useful information. We cannot foresee what and when will be useful to us. Explained easily? Or chew more?
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 3 December 2020 18: 47
        +4
        Or chew more?
        What for???
        1. kalibr
          3 December 2020 18: 56
          +5
          Well, what if a person has problems with word recognition?
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 3 December 2020 19: 02
            +4
            Vyacheslav Olegovich, remind me, maybe I suddenly forgot, do you have a diploma in dyslexia?
            1. kalibr
              3 December 2020 19: 26
              +4
              There is no such diploma.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 3 December 2020 19: 30
                +4
                Then why waste time?
                1. kalibr
                  3 December 2020 19: 40
                  +4
                  Tired, Anton, already writing .... I sit, looking at what others are writing. I answer. I look at what they write in response. I communicate, so to speak ...
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 3 December 2020 21: 50
                    +3
                    You are a kind person, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
                    1. kalibr
                      4 December 2020 06: 26
                      +2
                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      You are a kind person, Vyacheslav Olegovich!

                      How to say it, Anton! It happens that not!
                2. Catfish
                  Catfish 3 December 2020 19: 52
                  +5
                  Then why waste time?

                  Perhaps in the hope that someday the micromayor will grow to a whole lieutenant? Charity, so to speak.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 3 December 2020 17: 23
    +5
    I wish everyone health and well-being.
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, I remembered about you yesterday that Vyacheslav Olegovich will have the following? I bet with myself and views, and now "pay".
    Р
    S
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, colleagues, in the morning I watch what is interesting? If there is an epigraph - Vyacheslav Olegovich. An epigraph as a "trademark" of Vyacheslav Olegovich. So you need to read carefully
  • vladcub
    vladcub 3 December 2020 17: 56
    +5
    "" William the Conqueror, even had to take off his helmet so that his own wars would recognize him "at that time if the commander died, then the battle could stop. with you ".
  • vladcub
    vladcub 3 December 2020 18: 00
    +5
    Quote: Van 16
    Thanks for the interesting story!
    The first thing that came to mind was Ivanhoe and his shield, a tree uprooted with the inscription "dedechado". Looks like a strong impression in childhood, this book made))

    I myself, when I read the beginning, I immediately remembered: "Ivanhoe".
    There is nothing surprising in this: almost everyone has read: "Ivanhoe" and remembers its coat of arms
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 3 December 2020 19: 35
    +3
    "the dream of Henry of England", Vyacheslav Olegovich, and the dream of Henry of England was fulfilled and he was "beheaded with the sword"?
    1. kalibr
      3 December 2020 19: 42
      +3
      In my opinion, no, but it is better for you to ask not me, but on the Internet. I am a very narrow specialist. Like a katana blade.
    2. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 3 December 2020 20: 07
      +4
      He himself died from seafood poisoning.
    3. Undecim
      Undecim 3 December 2020 21: 31
      +4
      The dream of Henry I is an allegory by the compiler of the Chronicon ex chronicis. According to his stories, he heard about the king's nightmares from the royal doctor Grimbald.
      Most likely, in this way, John of Worcestersky wanted to illustrate his story that Henry did not fulfill the promises made at the coronation and those to whom he made these promises come to him in dreams.
      And he died, having gorged on lampreys.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave 3 December 2020 21: 48
        +3
        The dream of Henry I is an allegory by the compiler of the Chronicon ex chronicis
        Yes figs knows! The constancy with which Heinrich broke his oaths can shock even modern deputies.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 3 December 2020 22: 08
          +2
          Both in those days and today, in politics, the presence of conscience is a sign of incompetence.
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 3 December 2020 22: 31
            +2
            I agree. However, there are exceptions. Take Thomas Beckett, for example.
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 3 December 2020 22: 49
              +3
              And even then we will never know exactly what drove this person in his actions.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 3 December 2020 23: 03
                +2
                And that too. But you can try to understand? Otherwise, why then shake the air?
                1. Undecim
                  Undecim 3 December 2020 23: 18
                  +3
                  You can try, especially taking into account the Duhem-Quine thesis.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 3 December 2020 23: 26
                    +2
                    This thesis was defined by Socrates. Well, according to Plato.
                    1. Undecim
                      Undecim 3 December 2020 23: 35
                      +3
                      Oh, the philosophy of Socrates as presented by Plato is precisely an illustration of the Duhem-Quine thesis.
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 3 December 2020 23: 43
                        +2
                        But we have no other philosophy of Socrates, except in the presentation of Plato (by the way, he is still a ghoul)? At least in the "public consciousness"?
                      2. Undecim
                        Undecim 3 December 2020 23: 56
                        +3
                        It was not only Plato who expounded it? There, it seems, the Greeks also noted, right up to Plutarch and Diogenes. And, as I understand it, each of them has its own, "proprietary" version. However, I am not strong in Greek philosophy, and in non-Greek, too.
                      3. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 4 December 2020 00: 11
                        +2
                        As far as I understand, Socrates personally knew two people: Plato and Democritus. Antagonists from the word "absolutely". Democritus lost the battle. And now we know Socrates from the words of Plato.
                        As for Diogenes ... He was not in the "project" when Socrates "committed suicide".
                      4. Undecim
                        Undecim 4 December 2020 00: 17
                        +3
                        Nevertheless, in the second volume of the ten-volume "On the Life, Teachings and Sayings of Famous Philosophers", he sets out the biography and philosophical views of Socrates.
                      5. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 4 December 2020 00: 43
                        +2
                        Uh-huh.
                        "Vasisualy Lokhankin and his role in the Russian revolution".
                      6. Undecim
                        Undecim 4 December 2020 01: 08
                        +3
                        Well, the man for the lady tried, tried to present complex philosophical questions in an accessible form, and you called him Lokhankin.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 4 December 2020 20: 42
    0
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    The dream of Henry I is an allegory by the compiler of the Chronicon ex chronicis
    Yes figs knows! The constancy with which Heinrich broke his oaths can shock even modern deputies.

    In this case, you really need to be careful not to cut
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 4 December 2020 03: 53
    +3
    Quote: Undecim
    And he died, having gorged on lampreys.


    In nafig-nafig is after 18 hours !!! laughing
  • vladcub
    vladcub 3 December 2020 21: 15
    +5
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    Well, yes, and summer without sun, and winter without snow. Although, I like it.

    "Winter without snow, and summer without sun" - a woman without a breast. It does not interfere with life, but the flaw is courageous
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 3 December 2020 21: 39
      +2
      woman without breast
      I'm not as stoic as Brad Pitt
  • awdrgy
    awdrgy 4 December 2020 00: 10
    +1
    The transfer of information can be both alphabetic and symbolic, and the symbolic is more effective (not to be confused with hieroglyphic) because it can accommodate a larger amount of useful information on a sheet of paper (conditionally) But there is a problem - it takes a long time to learn this method and the teaching methods are very specific (go rumors that even parts of the brain are developing in an ordinary person are not entirely developed) In general, this was clearly the lot of the priesthood, apparently (a certain part of it) Heraldry is a special case of a more complex and encompassing system (a simplified or, let's say, a particular version, focused more on achievements and military concepts) This is my guess
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 4 December 2020 04: 11
      +2
      Information transfer can be both alphabetic and symbolic, and symbolic is more efficient

      I do not know about the "symbolic" transmission of information.
      Philosophy as a science "speaks" a person thinks in images. Everything else is from the evil one.
      Otherwise, you can learn to read a hexadecimal digital code or gestures from a sheet, but human laziness and ignorance will always lead to "optimization" of the process. So, having broken the "brain" over the "character squiggle" in 99 cases it is easier to read a thousand characters of the text !!!
      And so, Vasya, have you read what needs to be done in the note with symbols on the refrigerator?
      Yes dear, the cat helped me with this!
      Now he lives in the refrigerator and apparently gnaws at our boiled pork for dinner! belay
      1. awdrgy
        awdrgy 5 December 2020 13: 27
        0
        Some have a headache while going through the school curriculum and this is a fact and not related to the state of health It happens On this topic there was an anecdote about a monkey and a cadet
    2. kalibr
      4 December 2020 06: 23
      +1
      Quote: awdrgy
      Heraldry is a special case of a more complex and encompassing system (a simplified or, let's say, a private version focused more on achievements and military concepts)

      Absolutely correct, only it is difficult to perceive.
      1. awdrgy
        awdrgy 5 December 2020 13: 29
        +1
        But the one who uses this advantage is in an advantageous position in relation to the one who does not own it There is something in this and there is no time to dig and I think it is not worth it
  • Torquemada
    Torquemada 8 December 2020 21: 51
    0
    A little clarification on lions with leopards. If it stands on its hind legs and the head is in profile - a lion, on four and the muzzle is drawn in full face - a leopard. On its hind legs and full face - a leopard lion, on four and in profile - a lion leopard. Here is such a combinatorial)
    So in the last photo, if I see correctly, not leopard lions, but simply leopards.
    1. Torquemada
      Torquemada 9 December 2020 09: 40
      0
      Oh, no, I apologize. In the morning I looked again. On four paws and in profile - lion leopards.