Military Review

Use of captured German pistols in the USSR

225
Use of captured German pistols in the USSR

It is no secret that for many Soviet officers it was very prestigious to own a captured pistol. Most often German short-barreled weapon could be at the disposal of the infantry commanders of the platoon-battalion level and the military personnel of the reconnaissance units. That is, those who were directly on the front line or went behind the front line.


Pistols chambered for 9 × 19 mm Parabellum


Although the armed forces of the Third Reich had many different types of short-barreled weapons, our soldiers usually captured the Luger P.08 and Walther P.38 pistols. For firing from them, a cartridge 9 × 19 mm Parabellum, powerful enough for that time, was used, which at distances (typical for shooting from short-barreled weapons) provided a good stopping and lethal effect.

The Luger P.08 pistol (also known as Parabellum) was adopted by the Kaiser's army in 1908. The automatic pistol is based on the scheme of using recoil with a short barrel stroke. The barrel bore is locked using an original system of articulated levers. In fact, the entire hinge-lever system of the pistol in terms of the device is a crank mechanism, in which the slide was the slide.


9mm Luger P.08 pistol.

At the time of adoption, the "Parabellum" was almost the best 9-mm semi-automatic pistol, and for a fairly long period of time was considered as a kind of standard. One of the main advantages of the "Parabellum" is its high shooting accuracy, achieved due to the comfortable handle with a large angle of inclination and easy descent. Compared to other army pistols of the time, it combined high power with sufficient compactness. All Luger P.08 pistols were of high quality workmanship, good exterior finish and precise fit of moving parts. Metal surfaces have been blued or phosphated. On weapons of early release, the grip cheeks were made of walnut wood, with a fine notch. However, pistols fired during World War II may have dark plastic cheeks.

The weight of the equipped weapon was about 950 g, the total length was 217 mm, and the barrel length was 102 mm. Magazine capacity - 8 rounds. The rate of fire is about 30 rounds per minute. Sighting range - up to 50 m. Bullet muzzle velocity - 350 m / s. For the armament of personnel directly involved in hostilities, a modification was made with a barrel length of 120 mm. From 10 m, a bullet fired from this pistol pierced a German steel helmet. At a distance of 20 m, the bullets fit into a circle with a diameter of 7 cm.

During the First World War, the Lange P.08 pistol was produced, which is also known as the "Artillery Model". Intended for arming the crews of field artillery guns and non-commissioned officers of machine-gun teams. The long barrel and the ability to attach a rigid butt holster to the weapon significantly increased the range of fire.


9mm Lange P.08 pistol.

The "artillery" pistol had a total length of 317 mm and an unloaded weight of 1,080 kg. The bullet left the barrel 203 mm long with an initial velocity of 370 m / s. The pistol could be equipped with a Trommelmagazin 08 drum magazine for 32 rounds. Although the sights of this weapon were designed for a distance of up to 800 m, the effective firing range with a holster-butt attached did not exceed 100 m. Despite the higher cost, more than 1913 Lange P.1918 pistols were produced from 180 to 000. Subsequently, the "Artillery Model" (as pistols with a barrel length of 08 and 102 mm) was in service in the Wehrmacht, in the SS, Kringsmarine and Luftwaffe. The exact number of Lugers produced is not known. According to some reports, they could have been produced up to 120 million copies. According to a number of sources, the German armed forces received about 3 million pistols from 1908 to 1944.

However, despite all the positive qualities of "Parabellum", it had serious drawbacks, the most important of which was the high cost and labor intensity of manufacture. In 1939, for the Wehrmacht, the cost of one pistol with three magazines was 32 Reichsmarks, at the same time the Mauser 98k rifle cost 70 Reichsmarks. In addition, the need to manually fine-tune some of the details required the use of highly skilled workers, which severely limited the volume of production.

In this regard, in the early 1930s, Carl Walther Waffenfabrik began to design a new semi-automatic pistol chambered for the 9mm Parabellum cartridge. At the same time, the developments obtained during the creation of a very successful 7,65-mm Walther PP pistol, which had an automatic mechanism with a free shutter, were used. But due to the fact that the power of the 9-mm cartridge was significantly higher, the automatic action of the new pistol was based on the use of recoil energy with a short barrel stroke. The barrel is locked by a latch swinging in a vertical plane and located between the barrel tides. The trigger mechanism is a double action with an open hammer.


9mm P38 pistol next to the holster.

The pistol, created by the company "Walter", entered service with the Wehrmacht officially on April 20, 1940 under the designation P.38 (Pistole 38). This pistol was mass-produced at factories in Germany, Belgium and the Czech Republic. P.38 pistols were originally produced with walnut grip cheeks, but these were later replaced by Bakelite ones.

Depending on the year and place of issue, the mass of the pistol was 870–890 g. Length - 216 mm, barrel length - 125 mm. Magazine capacity - 8 rounds. Bullet muzzle velocity - 355 m / s.

In the second half of 1943, the number of 9-mm "Walters" in the active army became more than "Luggers". Nevertheless, both pistols were in service until the surrender of Nazi Germany. In 1944, by order of the Imperial Security Chief Directorate, a version with a P.73K barrel shortened to 38 mm was created and produced.


9mm pistol P.38K.

In total, the armed forces of the Third Reich received about 1 million P38 pistols. During the fighting, the P.38 demonstrated sufficient efficiency, good operational reliability, a high degree of safety in handling, and firing accuracy. Among the advantages of "Walter" can be attributed an excellent combination of combat and service-operational characteristics for its time. The pistol was safe when loaded, the owner could open fire at any time or determine by touch if the weapon was loaded. But, despite the high quality of workmanship and other positive characteristics, traditional for German weapons, the P.38 still had several rather significant drawbacks.


Although "Walter" was easier and cheaper to manufacture than "Parabellum", it still turned out to be quite complex, had many parts and springs. The P.38 grip is too thick for a pistol with a single-row magazine, which makes it not very convenient for shooters with a small hand. In addition, it turned out that the P.08 with a 120mm barrel was superior in accuracy to the P.38, which had a 125mm barrel. The workmanship and finish of the P.38 pistols, produced at the end of the war, were greatly reduced, which negatively affected reliability.

Pistols chambered for 7,65 mm Browning


Unfortunately, the format of this publication does not allow us to tell about all the pistols used in the armed forces of Nazi Germany. But it would be wrong not to mention the widespread compact pistols chambered for 7,65 × 17 mm. During World War II, the most common German 7,65 mm pistols were Walther PP, Walther PPK and Mauser HSс.

After the defeat in the First World War, the production of weapons in Germany was limited by the terms of the Versailles Treaty: a caliber of no more than 8 mm and a barrel length of no more than 100 mm. In 1929, a Walther PP pistol (Polizeipistole) was created at the Carl Walther GmbH company for the 7,65 × 17 mm cartridge, which was popular at that time. The pistol was originally designed as a police weapon and as a civilian self-defense weapon.


7,65mm Walther PP pistol.

The pistol automatics is based on the free breech recoil scheme. This became possible thanks to the use of a relatively low-power "civilian" cartridge. The shutter-casing is held in the extreme forward position by a return spring located on the barrel. Firing mechanism hammer type, double action. Allows a shot both with a pre-cocked and with the trigger released. This arrangement makes the pistol as compact as possible, simple, easy to handle, safe and, with a cartridge sent, makes it possible to quickly open fire.

The design of the firing mechanism includes the release of the trigger and its safety cocking - important for safety quality. There is also an indicator of the presence of a cartridge in the chamber, which is a rod, the back of which protrudes beyond the surface of the bolt-casing above the trigger when the weapon is loaded. Such a device makes the pistol much safer, since the owner can determine if the cartridge is in the chamber even by touch.

The pistol turned out to be quite convenient, relatively lightweight and compact. Weight without cartridges is 0,66 kg. Overall length - 170 mm. Barrel length - 98 mm. Bullet muzzle velocity - 320 m / s. Sighting range - up to 25 m. Magazine for 8 rounds.

Although the Walther PP did not meet the requirements of the military in terms of power, the great popularity among the personnel of the German police and security services, as well as the success in the civilian market, attracted the attention of the heads of the weapons department of the ground forces. In the second half of the 1930s, due to Germany's abandonment of the restrictions imposed by the Treaty of Versailles and a sharp increase in the number of personnel, the German armed forces experienced a shortage of pistols. The stocks available at that time did not satisfy the needs of the army, and it was still far from the deployment of the necessary volumes of production of regular army pistols. In order to somehow fill the vacuum that arose in the system of small arms, it was decided to start purchasing non-standard service and civilian short-barreled weapons of 7,65 mm caliber.

To be fair, I must say that the 7,65-mm "Walter" was really good. Lighter and more compact (compared to the "Parabellum"), it turned out to be quite suitable for arming officers not directly participating in hostilities. This weapon, due to its small size, made it possible to carry it secretly, which was appreciated by the operational officers of the police and security services, who carried out operational-search activities in civilian clothes. Police "Walters" quite often had crews of armored vehicles, pilots, sailors, couriers and staff officers. Until April 1945, the German state authorities, special services, police and armed forces received about 200 Walther PP pistols.

In 1931, a shortened and lightweight Walther RRK (Polizeipistole Kriminal) pistol appeared, which was created on the basis of the Walther PP, but at the same time had some original features. The design of the frame and the shutter-casing was slightly changed, which received a different shape for the front part. Barrel length decreased by 15 mm, overall length by 16 mm, and height by 10 mm. Weight without cartridges - 0,59 kg. Bullet muzzle velocity - 310 m / s. 7-round magazine.


7,65 mm Walther RRK pistol.

Pistols Walther PP and Walther RRK were produced in parallel. During the Nazi years in power, Carl Walther supplied approximately 150 Walther RRK pistols to the German army, police and paramilitaries. During the war, they were, as a rule, used by the officers of the Luftwaffe, rear units of the ground forces, as well as by the command staff of the Wehrmacht.

Another 7,65-mm pistol adopted by Nazi Germany was the Mauser Hsс (Hahn-Selbstlspanner pistole ausfurung C). Mass production of this sleek pistol began in 1940. It was developed as a compact self-defense weapon, suitable for concealed carry, and is a self-loading pistol, built on automatic blowback and has a double-action trigger mechanism. The early pistols were of excellent workmanship and surface finish, with walnut grip cheeks.


7,65 mm pistol Mauser HSс.

The mass of the Mauser HSc pistol without cartridges is 0,585 kg. Length - 162 mm. Barrel length - 86 mm. Magazine capacity - 8 rounds. The width is 27 mm, which is 3 mm less than the Walther PP.


7,65mm Mauser HSc pistol with holster.

The pistol shape and sights are optimized for concealed carry. The small-height front sight is hidden in a longitudinal groove and does not protrude beyond the contour of the weapon. The hammer is almost completely hidden by the bolt, and only a small flat spoke protrudes outward, allowing, if necessary, to cock the hammer manually, but practically excluding the possibility of catching the hammer on clothing when drawing the weapon. More than 250 Mauser HSс pistols have been produced in five years. They were mainly armed with senior and senior command personnel, the secret police, saboteurs, officers of the Luftwaffe and Kringsmarine.

A common feature of the 7,65 mm Walther PP / RRS and Mauser HSc pistols was that at a distance of 15–20 m they had better accuracy than the 9 mm P.08 and P.38 pistols. Due to their lighter weight, it was easier to control them, and the recoil and the roar of the shot were easier to carry by the shooter. At the same time, the 9-mm cartridge with a muzzle energy of a bullet of about 480 J was more than twice the 7,65-mm cartridge with a bullet energy of 210-220 J. This (in combination with a larger caliber) meant that the "Parabellum" A 9-mm bullet, when it hits the same part of the body as a 7,65-mm bullet, has a much higher probability of instantly disabling the target and depriving the enemy of the opportunity to fire back.

The use of captured German pistols in the Red Army


How many German pistols the Red Army soldiers and partisans operating in the temporarily occupied territory managed to capture is not known. But, apparently, we can talk about tens of thousands of units. It is quite obvious that in the second half of the war, when our troops seized the initiative and switched to strategic offensive operations, the number of captured small arms increased. Moreover, if rifles, submachine guns and machine guns captured from the enemy were centrally assembled by trophy teams, then the compact short-barreled barrel was often hidden by the personnel.


It was common for soldiers to present trophy pistols to respectable commanders. "Lugers" and "Walters" often had snipers, military scouts and soldiers of sabotage groups as additional weapons. As a rule, it was easier for the underground workers and partisans operating in the deep German rear to get 9 × 19 and 7,65 × 17 mm cartridges than for Soviet weapons. Often, captured pistols became the subject of a kind of bargaining, when the commanders of the units exchanged for them various scarce property from the quartermasters, as a result of which a large number of unaccounted short-barreled weapons were formed in the hands of the rear officers.


I am sure that readers will be interested in comparing the German pistols mentioned in this publication with the revolver of the Nagant system mod. 1895 and Tokarev's self-loading pistol arr. 1933.

The Nagant revolver certainly surpasses all semi-automatic pistols in terms of reliability. Even in the event of a misfire, one could simply pull the trigger again and quickly fire the next shot. In addition, the revolver, when fired with a preliminary platoon, demonstrated a fairly high accuracy. At a distance of 25 m, a good shooter could put bullets in a circle with a diameter of 13 cm. But with all the advantages of a revolver of the Nagant system, a shooter armed with it could fire 7 shots in 10-15 seconds, after which each spent cartridge case had to be knocked out of the drum with a ramrod and loaded drum one cartridge.


The TT pistol could fire up to 30 rounds per minute, which roughly corresponded to the rate of fire of German self-loading pistols. But at the same time, the German samples significantly exceeded the TT in terms of ease of handling and were much more comfortable when shooting. The ergonomics of the TT leaves much to be desired. The handle angle is small, the handle cheeks are thick and rough. Although the fixed pistol demonstrated very good combat accuracy and at a distance of 25 m the dispersion radius did not exceed 80 mm, in practice it was impossible to achieve such accuracy. This was due to the fact that the trigger on the TT was tight and sharp, which, combined with poor ergonomics and powerful recoil, significantly reduced the shooting accuracy when using the pistol by an average shooter.

Perhaps the biggest drawback of a TT is the lack of a full-fledged fuse. Because of this, numerous accidents have occurred. After a large number of unintentional shots due to the fall of a loaded weapon, it was forbidden to carry a pistol with a cartridge in the chamber.

Another drawback is the poor fixation of the magazine, which in combat conditions could lead to its fall out of the handle and loss. Despite the fact that a very powerful cartridge 7,62 × 25 mm with an initial bullet speed of 420 m / s and very good penetration was used for shooting from TT, its stopping effect was significantly lower than that of the 9 × 19 mm cartridge.

German 9-mm pistols "Parabellum" and "Walter" had a resource of up to 10 rounds, and the Soviet TT was designed for 000 rounds. However, such a large shot could only be found in the weapons used in the shooting ranges. In practice, in most cases, no more than 6 shots were fired from pistols in combat units (before they were decommissioned or transferred to storage). In part, the shortcomings of Soviet pistols and revolvers were compensated for by the fact that they were much easier and cheaper to manufacture.

Post-war use of captured German pistols


After the end of the war, many German-made pistols remained in the USSR, and not all of them were legal. A significant number of captured weapons ended up in the hands of criminals. The NKVD / MGB officers who fought the bandits needed a convenient, compact, but at the same time relatively powerful weapon. In this regard, in 1946-1948, several tens of thousands of 7,65-9-mm pistols entered service with the operational staff of the USSR Ministry of State Security, where they were operated until the early 1960s, when they were replaced by domestic 9- mm pistols PM. In addition, the captured 7,65 mm Walther PP and Walther PPK pistols have long been the personal weapons of diplomatic couriers. Several thousand pistols were donated to award funds and used as personal weapons in the prosecutor's office and other government bodies. Currently, Walther PP and Walther PPK pistols are on the list of weapons that can be awarded to law enforcement officials, deputies and high-ranking officials. In total, in our country, there are about 20000 premium pistols and revolvers on hand.

To be continued ...
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  1. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 6 December 2020 03: 58
    -52%
    Pistols are the most useless weapon in the army. Even during WWII, soldiers probably killed more enemies with a bayonet than with a pistol. Therefore, I do not understand why change a super simple and reliable, inexpensive PM for some kind of PY and Gyurza? They just want to cut a piece from the state order.
    1. Toucan
      Toucan 6 December 2020 04: 47
      +25
      Do you offer officers to arm them with bayonets and sabers? lol But seriously, the PM will remain the main pistol in the Russian army for a long time. Another conversation is that some categories of military personnel require more powerful and accurate short-barreled weapons.
      1. Hunter 2
        Hunter 2 6 December 2020 04: 54
        +14
        Used as a Reward Weapon 1999 - 2003! I was lucky. hi
      2. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 6 December 2020 05: 02
        +6
        No, of course, let the officers go with pistols, this is a status weapon for an officer, like a dagger for a naval officer. But in a combat situation, the platoon or company commander will walk with a machine gun. As experience with the APS has shown, a shortened machine gun is much more convenient and effective than a hefty pandora with a holster-butt.
        1. igor67
          igor67 6 December 2020 13: 22
          +9
          Chief of Staff of Israel with senior command personnel, all with machine guns
          1. beeper
            beeper 7 December 2020 06: 23
            +9
            Quote: igor67
            Chief of Staff of Israel with senior command personnel, all with machine guns

            hi Anything expensive to see, all smart, military officers! good It can be seen from them that such guys and the officer's standard of physical training will surely pass, and successfully repel an attack on the headquarters "if something happens", and their brains are definitely not "swollen with fat"! wink
            Immediately, in contrast, one of our former tankmen, the Ukrainian Minister of Defense (infamously known for firing a civilian "nine-story building" in Brovary, a suburb of Kiev, and shooting down a civilian Tu-154 with the Israelis over the Black Sea), recalled with his "detrained conditions"
            A kind of "bubble" that would probably have gotten stuck in the hatch of the KSHMka, not like in the hatch of the tank, not to mention the successful delivery of the officer's standard of physical training - just breathlessness, arrhythmia and kaput ?! winked
            It is useless to give such a "headquarters chief" not only an assault rifle for self-defense, but also a pistol - just transfer of weapons and cartridges ?! request
            1. Vladimir-78
              Vladimir-78 8 December 2020 22: 35
              +1
              Well, you must remember the proverb. Generals do not run, because in peacetime it causes laughter, and in wartime panic)).
              1. beeper
                beeper 9 December 2020 00: 17
                +3
                Quote: Vladimir-78
                Well, you must remember the proverb. Generals do not run, because in peacetime it causes laughter, and in wartime panic)).

                hi Well, yes, the "parquet generals" do not run, they are carried!
                And for military senior officers, a complex of physical training is only beneficial - if the body is in good shape, then the brains work faster, and the efficiency is much higher, health is stronger, and the craving for all kinds of "abuse" is less! yes
                In a healthy body healthy mind!

                General Vasily Margelov had weights and dumbbells in his office, and in his daily routine he had 15 minutes of "iron workout" in every hour!
        2. Alexga
          Alexga 6 December 2020 17: 13
          +6
          In a tank regiment, all personnel in the war are armed with machine guns, with the exception of 9 nurses in the sexual MP. So it should be on the state.
          1. Alf
            Alf 6 December 2020 19: 46
            +17
            Quote: AlexGa
            nurses in the genital MP.

            In what, what MP ??? laughing
            1. Alexga
              Alexga 6 December 2020 20: 04
              +9
              Pancake!!! Got out T9! Of course the regimental MP.
              1. Alf
                Alf 6 December 2020 20: 18
                +9
                Quote: AlexGa
                Pancake!!! Got out T9! Of course the regimental MP.

                It’s also a good idea to carry a service in a sex room. laughing
                1. Alexga
                  Alexga 6 December 2020 21: 11
                  +4
                  I had a beast in my regiment, the chief medical officer, everyone was afraid of him, everyone except the commander and the deputies. But the special was from God!
                2. Tamer
                  Tamer 7 December 2020 10: 16
                  +1
                  Quote: Alf
                  It’s also a good idea to carry a service in a sex room. laughing

                  Well, it depends on who ... laughing
              2. KLV
                KLV 13 December 2020 12: 59
                0
                If you check your typed text before sending, even T999 will not hurt. But it’s necessary to strain ... And it’s true, let others try to understand what you wrote. This is their problem, not mine, right?
          2. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 7 December 2020 11: 10
            +5
            Quote: AlexGa
            In a tank regiment, all personnel in the war are armed with machine guns, with the exception of 9 nurses in the sexual MP.

            Grandpa Freud approves! smile
        3. Saxahorse
          Saxahorse 6 December 2020 18: 47
          +3
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          But in a combat situation, the platoon or company commander will walk with a machine gun.

          This has happened since the British wars with the Zulus. Despite the presence of a saber and a revolver, British infantry officers began to carry rifles with a bayonet. As it turned out, the saber against the Zulu with a spear does not help much, the revolver does not immediately stop, but the rifle and bayonet are just right! laughing
      3. mark1
        mark1 6 December 2020 06: 27
        +4
        Quote: Tucan
        Some categories of military personnel require more powerful and accurate short-barreled weapons.

        As well as to prosecutors and bailiffs, the lion's share of developments comes into service in this category.
        1. Deck
          Deck 6 December 2020 07: 37
          +25
          This gives out halberds and sabers.
    2. Pessimist22
      Pessimist22 6 December 2020 05: 07
      -4
      You can shoot yourself from the PM as a last resort.
      1. Hunter 2
        Hunter 2 6 December 2020 05: 22
        +16
        Quote: Pessimist22
        You can shoot yourself from the PM as a last resort.

        There's a grenade for that. The ROC interprets suicide in a difficult way ... if you left with the enemies - Everything is fine, Warrior.
        1. Pessimist22
          Pessimist22 6 December 2020 05: 33
          +60
          The ROC is fat bearded men who crush the people on geliks, to whom grandmothers bring money and who promise a good life after death, and now they are asked to endure and work for oligarchs for a penny?
      2. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 6 December 2020 05: 36
        -6
        An officer needs a pistol only to either shoot himself, so as not to be captured, or to shoot deserters and alarmists. And for this, PM is enough, no cool guns are needed.
    3. Lech from Android.
      Lech from Android. 6 December 2020 06: 55
      +26
      Pistols are the most useless weapon in the army.

      It is not true that Zhiguli beer PM-ohm is the only way to open up ... direct benefit both during rest and in self-defense ... 810 grams of iron on the head sober up well ... it is undesirable to shoot ... you will have to account for the cartridges. hi
    4. figwam
      figwam 6 December 2020 09: 15
      +7
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      Even during WWII, soldiers probably killed more enemies with a bayonet than with a pistol.

      The soldiers, unlike the bayonet, were not given pistols.
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 6 December 2020 09: 43
        -11%
        And why does a Red Army man need a pistol if he has a rifle with a bayonet? From a rifle you can aim and shoot at a distance of 300-400 m, and from a pistol more than 70 m of figs you will hit a person.
        1. figwam
          figwam 6 December 2020 09: 49
          +10
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          And why does a Red Army man need a pistol if he has a rifle with a bayonet?

          If the Red Army soldier had a pistol, then in close combat he would use it, not a bayonet.
          1. Hunter 2
            Hunter 2 6 December 2020 10: 08
            +15
            Quote: figvam
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            And why does a Red Army man need a pistol if he has a rifle with a bayonet?

            If the Red Army soldier had a pistol, then in close combat he would use it, not a bayonet.

            Well, here, as in a joke ... why do you need hand-to-hand combat? If you lose (in the original harder) all the Weapons, belt, helmet and armor, you can find the Ideal place without stones and sticks ... plus you will meet the same imbecile - RB skills will really come in handy. wink
          2. Reviews
            Reviews 6 December 2020 10: 10
            -4
            Quote: figvam
            Quote: Kot_Kuzya
            And why does a Red Army man need a pistol if he has a rifle with a bayonet?

            If the Red Army soldier had a pistol, then in close combat he would use it, not a bayonet.

            The bayonet has infinite ammunition, while the pistol has only one magazine at hand-to-hand range. And then, if there are no misfires.
            1. figwam
              figwam 6 December 2020 10: 14
              +6
              Quote: Avis
              The bayonet has infinite ammunition, and the pistol has only one magazine at hand-to-hand range.

              Well, hand-to-hand combat is not endless, and one must not act alone, but cover each other when reloading, especially when fighting in trenches.
              1. Reviews
                Reviews 6 December 2020 10: 21
                +2
                Quote: figvam
                Quote: Avis
                The bayonet has infinite ammunition, and the pistol has only one magazine at hand-to-hand range.

                Well, hand-to-hand combat is not endless, and one must not act alone, but cover each other when reloading, especially when fighting in trenches.

                Certainly. But life happens to throw up different situations.
                I am a pure theorist, of course, but in Vietnam, too, there were cases when it came to hand-to-hand combat. For example, when the VCs took over the Yankees artillery positions. Now, of course, much is different, but in local conflicts anything can happen.
                1. Saxahorse
                  Saxahorse 6 December 2020 18: 52
                  +4
                  Quote: Avis
                  Certainly. But life happens to throw up different situations.

                  A bayonet is one hole in an enemy in 5-10 seconds .. Glock is 17 holes in an enemy in 10 seconds. The pistol as a second weapon is a reality today.
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 7 December 2020 02: 09
                    +5
                    let us continue a series of arguments. The machine gun is 30 holes in the enemy in 3 seconds. smile
                    1. Saxahorse
                      Saxahorse 7 December 2020 22: 45
                      +1
                      Quote: Avior
                      let us continue a series of arguments. The machine gun is 30 holes in the enemy in 3 seconds.

                      Correctly! Therefore, today they go into battle with a machine gun and not with a halberd. laughing
                2. garri-lin
                  garri-lin 6 December 2020 19: 46
                  +5
                  Remember also that they climbed into holes to the Vietnamese with a pistol. There is a case for every weapon
          3. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 6 December 2020 10: 38
            -17%
            Quote: figvam
            If the Red Army soldier had a pistol, then in close combat he would use it, not a bayonet

            Don't write nonsense. How do you imagine it? A soldier throws his rifle to the ground, takes a pistol out of his pocket and starts smacking at the enemy? Firstly, the rifle is attached to the soldier, and for the loss of the weapon, the soldier could be shot, and later sent to the penal company. And secondly, the bulk of the soldiers moved on foot, and no one wants to carry another one and a half extra kilograms for the sake of hypothetical use in hand-to-hand combat. And to load Mosinka with a clip is a matter of a couple of seconds, comparable in time to taking a pistol out of a pocket or holster and cocking it. It is not for nothing that in WWII, not a single army of the belligerent countries armed an ordinary soldier with a rifle and a pistol at the same time.
            1. figwam
              figwam 6 December 2020 11: 33
              +13
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              Do not write nonsense.

              I will answer your theoretical delirium with a photo, this is how a fighter is armed for close or hand-to-hand combat, and not a rifle with a bayonet attached.

              And this is a German, a pistol and a sapper shovel.
              1. Kot_Kuzya
                Kot_Kuzya 6 December 2020 12: 08
                -7
                I repeat once again - in no army STATE there was nowhere given to an ordinary soldier a machine gun and a pistol, or a rifle and a pistol. In the Red Army, instead of a bayonet, the submachine gunner was given an army knife, NA-40, which is why it was often deciphered as "submachine gunner's knife". And the fact that the fighter in the photo is posing with the Nagant is most likely a decree, the fighter borrowed the Nagan from someone in order to give himself more solidity in the photo. Nagant was not issued to the submachine gunner, and none of the Red Army men would have given him their personal weapons, since this was regarded as a loss of weapons and a military crime.
                As for the photo of the German, it may be the number of the machine-gun crew, which were armed with pistols.
                1. figwam
                  figwam 6 December 2020 12: 29
                  +17
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  None of the army STATES anywhere gave an ordinary soldier a machine gun and a pistol, or a rifle and a pistol.

                  No army in the world could afford to equip a soldier with a pistol, it is very expensive.
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  And the fact that the fighter in the photo is posing with a Nagant, then this is most likely a decision

                  No, he just served in the intelligence department of the sabotage company of the Black Sea Fleet.
                2. Helmet
                  Helmet 11 December 2020 10: 41
                  0
                  In this particular case, it is street fighting in Novorossiysk, as far as I remember. When cleaning residential areas and premises, the pistol is quite in the subject, as well as a shovel paired with it
              2. saygon66
                saygon66 7 December 2020 19: 13
                +1
                - Photoshop or something ... A German soldier without shoulder straps ... And in his left hand what? Ax? And there, the sergeant major's slippers shine through ... request
                1. Avior
                  Avior 7 December 2020 23: 53
                  0
                  ... The photo was published in the Vienna edition of the Nazi newspaper Völkischer Beobachter on 1.10.1942/XNUMX/XNUMX with a caption stating that this is one of the most recent photographs of Leo Leixner, the newspaper's war correspondent (killed in August). In addition, it is reported that the picture was allegedly taken in one of the villages.


                  Photo is in Varalbom

                  https://waralbum.ru/56938/
                  It looks like a sapper shovel in his left hand
                  1. saygon66
                    saygon66 8 December 2020 00: 42
                    +1
                    - I was also looking for information on the photo ... Most of the signatures are the battles near Novorossiysk. And so - wherever they did not shove ... And a strange shape - without shoulder straps and buttonholes ... Working, or something ... So on that buttons are different.
                    1. Avior
                      Avior 8 December 2020 00: 56
                      +1
                      He looks strange
                      The rear is rather relaxed, although the stock is folded back
                      And this one is all wound up
            2. saygon66
              saygon66 7 December 2020 00: 40
              +2
              - And how they were armed! The same German parachutists - P08 or P39, Sauer 38 and K98, or FG42, Brno33 / 40 ...
              1. Kot_Kuzya
                Kot_Kuzya 7 December 2020 07: 43
                +5
                Quote: saygon66
                - And how they were armed! The same German parachutists - P08 or P39, Sauer 38 and K98, or FG42, Brno33 / 40 ...

                Because German parachutists were thrown out with a parachute only with a pistol, carbines and PPs were thrown separately in boxes.
        2. vladcub
          vladcub 6 December 2020 14: 08
          +4
          Kuzya, because the Red Army men, at an opportunity, refused rifles.
          My grandfather was in the Marine Corps of the Black Sea Fleet, and he scolded: "Sveta" is capricious, and the three-line "devil's candle". He respected: "daddy" and Tteshka in addition
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 6 December 2020 14: 20
            -5
            Here's a read about PPSh problems with stores, especially with disk ones.
            http://alternathistory.com/karabin-ili-ppsh-neochevidnyj-vybor-rkka/
            1. Viktor123
              Viktor123 7 December 2020 16: 18
              -3
              Many fighters of the Red Army used the PPSh disk magazine as a seat. And, as a result, the deformation of the store. And if we consider that only 2 disk magazines went to the PPSh, then the probability of damage to one or both was very high.
              1. Alf
                Alf 7 December 2020 18: 40
                +1
                Quote: Victor123
                Many soldiers of the Red Army used the PPSh disk magazine as a seat.

                Foolishly, you can break a horseradish.
                Imagine the diameter of the magazine and the size ... the priests and the degree of nonsense will become clear.
          2. Alf
            Alf 6 December 2020 19: 51
            +4
            Quote: vladcub
            My grandfather was in the Marine Corps of the Black Sea Fleet, and scolded: "light" -_ capricious,

            I don’t want to say anything bad about your grandfather, but he knew how to adjust the gas regulator correctly?
        3. Glory1974
          Glory1974 7 December 2020 09: 57
          0
          and from a pistol more than 70 m of figs you will get into a person.

          my teacher of firepower training at the school fired from a TT at machine-gun targets at 200-250 meters and hit. So it all depends on the skill.
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 7 December 2020 10: 09
            -1
            Quote: glory1974
            my teacher of firepower training at the school fired from a TT at machine-gun targets at 200-250 meters and hit. So it all depends on the skill.

            My friend hit the growth target from a distance of 1000 m from the SVD, but this does not mean that EVERYONE will hit the growth target from the SVD.
            1. Glory1974
              Glory1974 7 December 2020 10: 13
              +1
              but this does not mean that EVERYONE will hit

              weapons have this ability, and the soldier must be able to use this opportunity.
              1. Avior
                Avior 7 December 2020 23: 59
                -1
                TT does not have this opportunity
                In polygon conditions with a fixed distance, it is possible by training to find a suitable elevation angle of the barrel when aiming, but in a battle the enemy cannot be placed exactly 200 meters
                The bullet can continue to fly
                1. Salty
                  Salty 8 December 2020 00: 04
                  -1
                  Quote: Avior
                  TT does not have this opportunity

                  Oh, Gospadi ... the pistol is drawn ...

                  Tell me about APS then (it was a favorite), and -

                  Give me a revolver, I'll tear it to ... completely)

                  PS: It's boring with you, Avior ... you are predictable, but this is not interesting even once request
    5. Mister X
      Mister X 6 December 2020 11: 41
      +1
      hi
      Let us wedge in
      The Nagant revolver certainly surpasses all semi-automatic pistols in terms of reliability.
      Author: Linnik Sergey

      However, the destructive power of the 7,62 × 38 mm cartridge is questionable.
      Stalin's son (Yakov) tried to shoot himself, but the bullet went right through.
      He stayed alive.
      1. Salty
        Salty 6 December 2020 11: 57
        +4
        Quote: Mister X
        Stalin's son (Yakov) tried to shoot himself, but the bullet went right through. He stayed alive

        You can foolishly and (leg) break
        Give the fool a glass bolt - he will break it too ...

        Give me a revolver ... I will tear it completely)))

        From a revolver, and not to shoot himself - this is either a great talent, or he loved himself very much. About a specific Jacob - rather the second than the first yes

        PS: revolver in hand - held, I know what it is. Complete disassembly, assembly ... a favorite toy, practically request
        1. Mister X
          Mister X 6 December 2020 12: 07
          +4
          Quote: SaltY
          You can foolishly and (leg) break

          and genitals wink
          In the case of Yakov Zhdugashvili, the irony of fate.
          Those who are destined to die in a concentration camp will not be able to shoot themselves.
          1. Salty
            Salty 6 December 2020 12: 09
            +2
            Quote: Mister X
            and genitals

            Yes, that is understandable ... about the "leg" - this is so as not to be substituted under censorship,

            Quote: Mister X
            The Irony of Fate

            Yes. And the revolver has something to do with it? Norm weapons, played, we know)
          2. vladcub
            vladcub 6 December 2020 14: 13
            +4
            Master, maybe DZHUGASHVILI?
            1. Mister X
              Mister X 7 December 2020 08: 46
              +2
              Quote: vladcub
              Master, maybe DZHUGASHVILI?

              hi
              You are right, Dzhugashvili.
              About the cap wink
              My vision is sinking ...
      2. Toucan
        Toucan 6 December 2020 12: 29
        0
        However, the destructive power of the 7,62 × 38 mm cartridge is questionable.
        Stalin's son (Yakov) tried to shoot himself, but the bullet went right through.

        Did he shoot himself in the temple?
        1. Mister X
          Mister X 6 December 2020 12: 37
          +1
          Quote: Tucan
          Did he shoot himself in the temple?

          As if in the temple.
          Nobody can tell for sure.
          As well as about his death in a concentration camp: there are 2 versions.
          And the death of Hitler raises many questions ...
      3. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 6 December 2020 14: 05
        -1
        Nagant's bullet could stop a galloping horse, so it could stop a man all the more. One of the requirements of the tsarist generals when adopting a new revolver instead of the outdated Smith and Wesson was the ability to stop a new revolver with a bullet from a distance of 50 steps, which is about 35 meters, a cavalry horse galloping in attack.
      4. Bongo
        7 December 2020 02: 48
        +3
        Quote: Mister X
        However, the destructive power of the 7,62 × 38 mm cartridge is questionable.
        Stalin's son (Yakov) tried to shoot himself, but the bullet went right through.
        He stayed alive.

        Hello my Moldovan friend!
        At the time of adoption, the Nagant revolver was a fairly powerful weapon with good ballistics. Of course, its stopping power was lower than that of the 9mm Parabellum, but the penetration power of the Nagant was very good. Muzzle energy is approximately the same as that of PM.
        1. Mister X
          Mister X 7 December 2020 08: 56
          +3
          Quote: Bongo
          Hello my Moldovan friend!

          Hello my Russian friend! hi
          I did not study the Nagan system in detail, I decided to appropriate the "alien mind" for myself.
          Do you remember at Pushkin's? wink
        2. Alf
          Alf 7 December 2020 18: 46
          +2
          Quote: Bongo
          Muzzle energy is approximately the same as that of PM.

          Nagan's DE is 30% more.
  2. Catfish
    Catfish 6 December 2020 04: 55
    +30
    Nice, high-quality article, thanks to the author. hi
    Of course, the comparison of German and our pistols of that time, unfortunately, is clearly not in favor of ours, but this did not affect the outcome of the war.
    For some reason, the author did not mention another model of Georg Luger - the Navy Luger Pistol 1904 model of the year. Adopted by the Kaiser fleet in 1904.


    And more about trophies: during the war, a very good Finnish pistol Lahti (Lahti L-35) chambered for 9x19 Para was a welcome trophy.
    1. Hunter 2
      Hunter 2 6 December 2020 05: 09
      +11
      Konstantin, had the opportunity to shoot with Lahti ... the fight is good, but the material of manufacture is poor. The Germans made samples of higher quality (in terms of steel). But ... but a rarity - Rare. hi
    2. zyablik.olga
      zyablik.olga 6 December 2020 05: 44
      +12
      Quote: Sea Cat
      For some reason, the author did not mention another model of Georg Luger - the Navy Luger Pistol 1904 model of the year. Adopted by the Kaiser fleet in 1904.

      Maybe because they were not in the German army at the time of the VM, and they were not captured by our troops. By the way, which cartridge is used in the 1904 Marine Model?
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 6 December 2020 05: 52
        +12
        The cartridge is the same - 9x19 Para.
        For the rest: ships and units of the Kriegsmarine operated both in the Baltic and the Black Sea, but it is very difficult to say exactly which pistols they had, there could be any, but this model could well have been.
        1. zyablik.olga
          zyablik.olga 6 December 2020 06: 16
          +9
          Quote: Sea Cat
          The cartridge is the same - 9x19 Para.
          For the rest: ships and units of the Kriegsmarine operated both in the Baltic and the Black Sea, but it is very difficult to say exactly which pistols they had, there could be any, but this model could well have been.

          Thanks for the answer! I'm not an expert on pistols, but when my husband was preparing this article, I saw with one eye that the "Lugers" seemed to be originally chambered for a different cartridge. And it is not clear why a pistol with a long barrel is needed at sea? request
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 6 December 2020 06: 48
            +15
            Your husband, my best wishes, liked the article. smile
            And - yes, there was a commercial model chambered for 7,65 × 21 mm Para, by the way, and the very name "Parabellum" is the name of a commercial model, from part of the famous Latin proverb "Si vis pacem, para bellum" (If you want peace, get ready to the war), this proverb was the motto of the company of the Leve brothers, on which Georg Luger and Hugo Borchardt worked. Improving Borchardt's K-93 pistol, Luger created his famous "Parabellum", or P.08, or "Eight", as soldiers in Germany called it.
            Olya love , yes, your spouse will tell you everything in more detail and better than me. smile drinks
            1. Hunter 2
              Hunter 2 6 December 2020 10: 16
              +5
              Quote: Sea Cat
              Your husband, my best wishes, liked the article. smile smile drinks

              Olga, I fully agree with Konstantin! Peace to your home! hi
              1. Bongo
                7 December 2020 02: 50
                +5
                Quote: Sea Cat
                Your husband, my best wishes, liked the article.

                Quote: Hunter 2
                Olga, I fully agree with Konstantin! Peace to your home!

                Guys, thank you very much for your good wishes! Unfortunately, I was on duty yesterday and could not take part in the discussion.
          2. Catfish
            Catfish 6 December 2020 06: 52
            +7
            Yes, about the long barrel and "why is it needed at sea." And the submarines, and the pilots of the naval aviation - fastened the butt, and now you have practically a carbine. And if you also fasten the drum magazine - then it's a "poet's dream" (or pilot). smile
            1. Kot_Kuzya
              Kot_Kuzya 6 December 2020 07: 22
              -2
              What kind of pilots, especially naval aviation, could we talk about in 1904?
              The M.1904 variant became the first mass version of the Luger pistol. The first purchase of this weapon took place after the German fleet adopted the "9-mm Selbstladepistole 1904" with a barrel length of 147.32 mm, later known as the "naval model".

              The first plane in the world made its first flight on December 17, 1903. Yes, and with submarines in 1904 it was about the same, the first submarine was put into service in the German fleet in December 1906.
              In case of boarding an enemy ship, a pistol was much more convenient than a rifle in tight corridors and cabins. True, for this, the barrel with a length of 147 mm is absolutely superfluous; a standard barrel with a length of 102 mm would be enough.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 6 December 2020 07: 52
                +13
                Apparently, someone in the supply department of the Kaiser fleet was smart enough to look into the future and think about both submarines and airplanes. But about boarding, you have adjusted it very well, and I can imagine how "Good Hope" falls on boarding with "Gneisenau", or "Goeben" with "Empress".
                1. Reviews
                  Reviews 6 December 2020 10: 30
                  +7
                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  But about boarding, you have adjusted it very well, and I can imagine how "Good Hope" falls on boarding with "Gneisenau", or "Goeben" with "Empress".

                  A certain successor to the boarding can be considered the landing of the inspection group ("... of the party"?). And, since it lands armed, then the weapon must correspond to a hypothetical armed conflict on board. You never know how the "suspects" will behave - they can, in principle, start buzzing, isn't it?
                  1. Kot_Kuzya
                    Kot_Kuzya 6 December 2020 10: 41
                    -5
                    Quote: Avis
                    A certain successor to boarding can be considered the landing of the inspection group

                    Yeah, apparently, the admirals of the German fleet in 1904 did not expect that in just 10 years these last remnants of chivalry would be a thing of the past, and their sailors would declare unlimited war and sink merchant ships without any inspection teams.
                    1. Catfish
                      Catfish 6 December 2020 13: 08
                      +5
                      This happened not ten, but forty years later. And in that war, of the participants, there was not a single submarine fleet that did not have a "stigma in the gun". And, a simple question: would you also like to land an inspection group on a transport in the convoy?
                      1. Kot_Kuzya
                        Kot_Kuzya 6 December 2020 14: 01
                        -3
                        In fact, Germany declared Unlimited War on March 1, 1917 and began to sink all ships indiscriminately, which led to the fact that a month later the United States declared war on Germany.
                      2. Catfish
                        Catfish 6 December 2020 14: 20
                        +3
                        The scale is incomparable, the first and the second.
                      3. Alexey RA
                        Alexey RA 7 December 2020 11: 23
                        +3
                        Quote: Sea Cat
                        The scale is incomparable, the first and the second.

                        Yes ... in the First World War, German submariners in the best months of 1917 drowned 0,8-1 million tons.
                        Dönitz's boys did not surpass this record, EMNIP.
                    2. cat Rusich
                      cat Rusich 7 December 2020 00: 28
                      +1
                      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                      In fact, Germany declared Unlimited War on March 1, 1917 and began to sink all ships indiscriminately, which led to the fact that a month later the United States declared war on Germany.
                      The formal reason for the United States to join WWI was "Zimmermann telegram".
                      Briefly the essence of the "Zimmermann telegram" - the proposal of the 2nd Reich to Mexico of an alliance against the United States, with a proposal to return the lands lost by Mexico in the American-Mexican War of 1846-1848. soldier
              2. Catfish
                Catfish 6 December 2020 12: 54
                +8
                I don’t remember a single case on the subject of "banging", except for the incident with "Altmark" in 1940, but there was an open act of piracy by the British.
              3. vladcub
                vladcub 6 December 2020 14: 34
                +3
                You reminded me that some kind of x / f and there the mundane border guards went to use force.
                I think that there were similar cases all over the world. When you board someone else's ship, you NEVER know that you are
        2. Bongo
          7 December 2020 02: 54
          +3
          Quote: Sea Cat
          Yes, about the long barrel and "why is it needed at sea." And the submarines, and the pilots of the naval aviation - fastened the butt, and now you have practically a carbine. And if you also fasten the drum magazine - then it's a "poet's dream" (or pilot).

          Konstantin, it is unlikely that seaplane pilots flew with bulky pistols in a wooden holster. But the officers of the inspection parties of the raiders could really come in handy. yes
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 7 December 2020 05: 48
            +2
            The "Sea Luger" had a leather holster, it could be worn together with the butt or separately.

            1. vladcub
              vladcub 7 December 2020 14: 13
              +3
              Kostya, now I tried to remember: who was the first to use the holster instead of the butt? I wanted to say right away that the first was the Mauser K-96, but I doubted: there was someone before. And Bergman, Mauser, Luger are already successors.
              Although, I read somewhere that the first was Mauser: a "pistol-carbine" for travelers. Your opinion?
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 7 December 2020 14: 38
                +2
                I never thought about it. But the Swiss were the first to come up with the butt holster for their Schmidt M1882 revolver, but it did not go into production, because the army did not approve. So in mass production, probably all the same, Mauser.
                1. vladcub
                  vladcub 7 December 2020 15: 47
                  +1
                  Perhaps Schmidt, I remember, somewhere there was material about a holster-butt, but little-known name
                2. vladcub
                  vladcub 7 December 2020 15: 56
                  +3
                  "the army did not approve" in fact, both Mauser and Bergman were also not officially in service, but were as an additional weapon, as in the RIA, or as a replacement for the main pistol, in the 2nd Reich, instead of Luger
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 7 December 2020 16: 25
                    +1
                    But here it is, in general, not about a weapon, but about an accessory, which the holster is. And besides, everything new always makes its way with difficulty, the holster-butt, apparently, is no exception.
              2. saygon66
                saygon66 7 December 2020 18: 45
                +2
                - And also Mannlicher

                -Star A

                - And probably the most ancient capsule Delvin ... And Merz from Remington, and Smith Wesson 320 .. Springfield 1855. It looks like a fashionable concept ..
                1. vladcub
                  vladcub 7 December 2020 19: 31
                  +3
                  Actually, Mannlicher is slightly younger than the Mauser K-96
                  1. saygon66
                    saygon66 7 December 2020 19: 40
                    +2
                    - Indeed ... Arr. 1901 ...
            2. saygon66
              saygon66 7 December 2020 15: 21
              +3
              - There was also a shooting practice kit. With liner liner, .22 caliber.
              - It was packed in a "case", something like this ...

              - There was such a grandfather's trophy, the guy from our entrance ... he replaced it with someone, for a cassette player "Vesna" 202! smile
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 7 December 2020 16: 58
                +2
                Not a great mind (to put it mildly) was the guy from your entrance. request


                The same as yours, only assembled.
                1. saygon66
                  saygon66 7 December 2020 18: 14
                  +2
                  - I wouldn't say ... In the 70s, cassette tape recorders are more interesting for young people ... smile
                  - And from the point of view of the Law, too ... Though it is a mining town - but still!
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 7 December 2020 18: 17
                    +4
                    It depends on what kind of young people I demobilized in 69 and the wind, of course, was in my head, but to exchange my father's trophy cannon for some kind of cassette player ... Sorry.
                  2. saygon66
                    saygon66 7 December 2020 18: 27
                    +1
                    - Yes, how old Vitka was ... 16 years old ... no more. With that pistol there is more trouble: there are no cartridges, no relatives, no "melkan" - they shot at the lanterns, and only ...
                    - And from the cassette tape "Boni M" - "Sunny! Yesterday May Life! ..." And 50 cm bells. Lyudka from the 7th apartment ... Offtopic, sorry ... wink
  • vladcub
    vladcub 6 December 2020 14: 24
    +4
    Olga, in the Second World War, as trophies, came across the most unexpected systems, and the "sea" Luger could just as well get as trophies.
    In 1941, the Wehrmacht had no shortage of pistols, and by the end of the war, EVERYTHING that could shoot was "ripped out". So there were many of them
  • Okolotochny
    Okolotochny 7 December 2020 12: 36
    +3
    Olga, in support of the version of the Cat of the Sea - German pilots, including those on the Eastern Front, armed themselves with the Hungarian Fromer pistol, as he wrote to Mister X about this, in the 80s in the EKTs of one of the Internal Affairs Directorates we were shown such a trophy.
  • Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 6 December 2020 07: 20
    +6
    What a beauty ... drooling. good
  • The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 6 December 2020 08: 21
    +4
    Good morning. And as for me, the author chose the title of the article unsuccessfully. In this part, there was an overly extended enumeration of the types of German stubs. I don't know what will happen with the sequel ...
    But from family stories - grandfather Vasily Semenovich is already in Germany, he caught up with a carriage with a retired general on a tank. He drew out the "ladies'" pistol, but the grandfather was quicker - he gave a drink and took the pistol for himself. He advised that such cartridges did not come across. Only later, in some abandoned dugout, I found several boxes and took them for shooting training.
    They took away in the hospital - the sergeants were not allowed such a luxury as captured weapons ...
    Petr Ivanovich is a different matter. He showed me the trophy brought from the war. Hungarian. Fromr. I don’t know where I kept it, but the rust broke a little and the cheeks on the handle deteriorated. Maybe he was buried for a while?
    Where he went is not known. After his death, neither I nor his brother found him in the house ...
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 6 December 2020 08: 55
      +7
      ... neither I nor his brother found him in the house ...

      It's a shame, of course. And what was Frommer's model do not you remember? In fact, there weren't very many of them.
      1. The leader of the Redskins
        The leader of the Redskins 6 December 2020 11: 36
        +3
        I remember. Then they found it on the Internet. Later 1937. Under 7,65 mm.
        1. Lech from Android.
          Lech from Android. 6 December 2020 11: 58
          +4
          Isn't this handsome man? hi
          1. The leader of the Redskins
            The leader of the Redskins 6 December 2020 13: 08
            +6
            This. The hook on the store is cool, it helps to hold it comfortably in your hand.
            1. Mister X
              Mister X 6 December 2020 19: 01
              +4
              Quote: Leader of the Redskins
              This. The hook on the store is cool, it helps to hold it comfortably in your hand.

              Yes, a comfortable, curved spur under the little finger.
              By this very spur, the Frommer 29M can be easily distinguished from other pistols.
    2. Bongo
      7 December 2020 02: 58
      +3
      Quote: Leader of the Redskins
      Good morning. And as for me, the author chose the title of the article unsuccessfully. In this part, there was an overly extended enumeration of the types of German stubs. I don't know what will happen with the sequel ...

      Good morning! The criticism is partly fair, but there is no other way either ... request How would the article be perceived if I briefly did not disclose the history of the creation and design features of German pistols, but would immediately go on to describe their use in the Red Army?
  • Mister X
    Mister X 6 December 2020 11: 58
    +8
    Quote: Sea Cat
    The author, for some reason, did not mention another model

    hi
    ... the format of this publication does not allow to talk about all the pistols ...
    Author: Linnik Sergey

    I can add that not only Walter PP + PPK + Mauser Hsc were in service with one Luftwaffe, but also the Spanish Astra 300.
    Moreover, the Hungarian Frommer 37M was put into service under the 7,65 mm cartridge.
    85 thousand 37M pistols were delivered.
    I wrote about this and other pistols of Rudolf von Frommer.
    One of my readers wrote:
    Quote: Okolotochny
    showed the guns confiscated from the criminals - Luger, the famous Mauser and there was a Hungarian pistol of German pilots.

    1. Catfish
      Catfish 6 December 2020 13: 01
      +4
      Michael, hello and my best wishes! smile
      How are you doing and when will you please us with a new interesting article again?
      1. Mister X
        Mister X 6 December 2020 18: 57
        +5
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Michael, hello and my best wishes!

        Hi Constantine! hi Mutually!
        Perhaps to NG.
        Graduated 3 articles on "Agriculture".
        About the world's best tomatoes Heinz (USA)
        Subsoilers KRTEK (Czech Republic)
        Jacto sprayers (Brazil)
        I hope the farmers will appreciate and rush to buy them wink
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 7 December 2020 01: 44
          +4
          Unfortunately, I am not a farmer, although I live in a village. We would have something about weapons or some kind of historical material. smile
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 7 December 2020 07: 07
            +4
            Would you like to be a farmer?
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 7 December 2020 07: 12
              +4
              There is no desire, there is enough of our own garden in the village.
          2. Mister X
            Mister X 7 December 2020 09: 05
            +5
            Quote: Sea Cat
            We would have something about weapons or some kind of historical material.

            Just "giving birth" historical material: Legends of the deep antiquity ...
            I collect information about the Daco-Roman wars.
            For 2 thousand years, much has been forgotten and lost.
            I collect it bit by bit and analyze it.
            1. Catfish
              Catfish 7 December 2020 09: 15
              +2
              Let's wait, the Department of History is our most important "pasture". smile
              1. Mister X
                Mister X 7 December 2020 13: 29
                +4
                Quote: Sea Cat
                Department of History we have the most important "pasture".

                You know that I'm more of a shooter.
                And my next topic is ancient edged weapons.
                I am sure I can handle it: I wrote about the atlatl wink
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 7 December 2020 13: 34
                  +4
                  Of course you can handle it, but what section will be does not matter. smile
                2. vladcub
                  vladcub 7 December 2020 14: 25
                  +5
                  You "hang" in advance, otherwise: "understand you" (c) it will be offensive to miss
                  1. Mister X
                    Mister X 7 December 2020 20: 49
                    +2
                    Quote: vladcub
                    You hang in advance,

                    Whistle!
                    I wrote to you in a personal, so as not to forget who I promised wink
                    1. vladcub
                      vladcub 8 December 2020 09: 03
                      +4
                      For this you merci
              2. vladcub
                vladcub 7 December 2020 14: 22
                +5
                You definitely said that. Here and in Armament, mostly adequate people gathered, and in the news, let the hamsters graze
                1. Bongo
                  7 December 2020 14: 45
                  +2
                  Quote: vladcub
                  Here and in Armament, mostly adequate people gathered, and in the news, let the hamsters graze

                  In "Novosti" mostly "patriots-uryakly" graze. A couple of times, for specific characters, tired of reading their nonsense, I specially made review articles on the air defense of Turkey and South Korea. If they had read them too ... request
                  1. vladcub
                    vladcub 7 December 2020 15: 30
                    +4
                    I remember your air defense reviews, they were sensible
                  2. Catfish
                    Catfish 7 December 2020 15: 51
                    +3
                    Sergey, hello! It’s a waste of work when the proverb about "not feed for a horse" is truly true. request
                    1. Bongo
                      8 December 2020 12: 52
                      +2
                      Quote: Sea Cat
                      Sergey, hello! It’s a waste of work when the proverb about "not feed for a horse" is truly true. request

                      Well, I hope someone was still interested.
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 6 December 2020 13: 13
      +8
      Astra 300 chambered for 7,65x17 and 9x17 mm.

      This is me so that the guys know what this is about. smile
    3. Bongo
      7 December 2020 03: 01
      +2
      I can add that not only Walter PP + PPK + Mauser Hsc were in service with one Luftwaffe, but also the Spanish Astra 300.
      Moreover, the Hungarian Frommer 37M was put into service under the 7,65 mm cartridge.
      85 thousand 37M pistols were delivered.
      I wrote about this and other pistols of Rudolf von Frommer.
      You have an idea of ​​what the cycle will be. The topic of short-barreled foreign production in the armed forces of Nazi Germany is too broad and requires in-depth research. You can do it. wink
      1. Mister X
        Mister X 7 December 2020 08: 51
        +5
        Quote: Bongo
        The topic of short-barreled foreign production in the armed forces of Nazi Germany is too broad and requires in-depth research. You can do it.

        Maybe someday I will.
        You know that the work will take six months.
        And after you, there will be nothing much to add wink
    4. Okolotochny
      Okolotochny 7 December 2020 12: 39
      +3
      Eh, I haven't read it, I mentioned it a little higher. hi
      But Frommer was different, not like in the photo, there was no bracket at the bottom, on the back of the handle there was a fuse in the form of a strip in full length. I remembered it precisely because of the fuse, I saw this for the first time.
      1. Mister X
        Mister X 7 December 2020 13: 47
        +5
        Quote: Okolotochny
        there was no bracket at the bottom, on the back of the handle there was a safety catch in the form of a strip in full length.

        You mean the automatic fuse.
        They began to be used on Frommer's pistols starting from the 1910 model of the year.
        Then it was implemented as a button.
        A large detail for the entire handle was already on the Frommer Stop in 1912, and then - until the 1937 model.
        At one time, I published a series of 5 articles about most of Frommer's stubs.

        Part 1
        https://topwar.ru/28739-pistolety-vengerskogo-oruzheynika-rudolfa-fon-frommera-chast-i.html
        Part 2
        https://topwar.ru/106253-pistolety-vengerskogo-oruzheynika-rudolfa-fon-frommera-chast-2.html
        Part 3
        https://topwar.ru/106814-pistolety-vengerskogo-oruzheynika-rudolfa-fon-frommera-chast-3.html
        Part 4
        https://topwar.ru/107180-pistolety-vengerskogo-oruzheynika-rudolfa-fon-frommera-chast-4.html
        Part 5
        https://topwar.ru/109581-pistolety-vengerskogo-oruzheynika-rudolfa-fon-frommera-chast-5.html
        1. Bongo
          7 December 2020 14: 46
          +3
          Quote: Mister X
          At one time, I published a series of 5 articles about most of Frommer's stubs.

          A wonderful, very well worked out cycle! good
          1. Mister X
            Mister X 7 December 2020 21: 00
            +2
            Quote: Bongo
            A wonderful, very well worked out cycle!

            Thank you!
            Sorry to entice your readers repeat
            Did you notice the difference in time between the first and the rest of the parts?
  • LastPS
    LastPS 6 January 2021 20: 36
    +1
    Of course, the comparison of German and our pistols of that time, unfortunately, is clearly not in favor of ours, but this did not affect the outcome of the war.

    Well, let's say the quality of an army pistol is not such a thing that could have any effect at all. IMHO, of course, but within the framework of that global war, the conditional TT looked even more advantageous - it was just extremely cheap, not really inferior, in fact, to other samples. This generally applies to all small arms of the Union of the war period. You need a lot of talent to do it competitively for cheap. All these unsightly TT, PPSh and PPS have their own indescribable charisma, while not overstepping the line when, for the sake of cheapening, the weapon loses its appearance altogether, turning into a parody of itself, as it was with a wall or samples for folksturm.
  • Cowbra
    Cowbra 6 December 2020 05: 23
    +6
    Are the flies scared in the first photo?

    A stand for which, by the way, the Nagan handle was generally developed ...

    Moreover, the one in civilian clothes - with a bent elbow - holds the stand quite stiff. It was only later that jokes like

    Here are just the first photo - these are blacks in Harlem. "We've cut the fly, cowboy"
  • St54
    St54 6 December 2020 05: 35
    +5
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    Pistols are the most useless weapon in the army. ...

    Well ... And the officers' show-off?
  • KVU-NSVD
    KVU-NSVD 6 December 2020 07: 58
    +6
    In part, the shortcomings of Soviet pistols and revolvers were compensated for by the fact that they were much easier and cheaper to manufacture.
    for a big war it is. Of the German ones described, he was holding Luger in his hands - it was convenient, but after the habit of PMu it was somewhat unusual, and Mauser was a fine little thing, I didn't want to let it out of my hands (if I was allowed a short-barreled - I would buy it, I sold the last cow wink ) And no need for TT - yes ergonomics, yes recoil, yes there is no fuse, but there is something in it ... I don't know, in short, I have feelings for him smile
    1. Toucan
      Toucan 6 December 2020 08: 08
      +8
      I had a chance to shoot from a TT 1942, which had traces of a cutter. The relic is certainly felt, but unlike the PM or Nagan, it has a very uncomfortable descent. There is no free movement of the hook, and when firing, the magazine had to be held with the hand so that it would not fall out.
      1. KVU-NSVD
        KVU-NSVD 6 December 2020 08: 12
        +6
        Quote: Tucan
        when firing, the store had to be held with a hand so that it would not fall out.

        Well, here the pistol was most likely completely worn out. To kickback and descent, yes, you have to get used to. But on the other hand, as you rightly noted, it is power in nature.
        1. Toucan
          Toucan 6 December 2020 08: 19
          +7
          The fact of the matter is that the pistol was from long-term storage. Rather a manufacturing defect. Although the author also writes in this article that the TT had such a disadvantage.
          1. KVU-NSVD
            KVU-NSVD 6 December 2020 08: 22
            +5
            Quote: Tucan
            TT had such a disadvantage.

            I would say that such a shortcoming was encountered. But it is unlikely that it was so widespread, otherwise it would have entailed the completion of the serial pistol.
            1. Alexfly
              Alexfly 6 December 2020 13: 12
              +1
              Strange, the store at TT has never dropped out for 34 years, but of course, in principle, it is possible. The button is not covered in any way. Grip the handle, a matter of habit. Descent, too, by the way, is a matter of habit. Colt is still released and its fans do not complain. Bullet stopping action? Increase the mass and shape of the bullet and it will be even better than 9X19 ....
        2. Catfish
          Catfish 6 December 2020 08: 58
          +10
          No, he always had problems with the store, this was also noted in the complaints.
    2. Catfish
      Catfish 6 December 2020 08: 57
      +10
      You can't trample against feelings, it is a purely intimate matter. But I understand that I myself have something similar to P.38. smile
      1. KVU-NSVD
        KVU-NSVD 6 December 2020 09: 13
        +5
        Quote: Sea Cat
        You can't trample against feelings, it is a purely intimate matter. But I understand that I myself have something similar to P.38. smile

        I was always attracted to TT by a powerful shot, good accuracy with habit, utility and simplicity, like the quality of a weapon of a great war, and the pistol itself is somehow masculine, rude and deadly. And about the clip - I had to shoot from three copies, and from one order of hundreds of cartridges, the clip never fell out of one either when shooting or when it was pulled out of the holster.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 6 December 2020 09: 20
          +11
          I, of course, shot less than a hundred of him, but I did not love him. For the same R.08 and R.38, the recoil is not less, but it is practically not felt, even the 19-11 does not really have it. Ergonomics and application, something that TT does not have. But, again, a matter of habit and personal attitude.
      2. vladcub
        vladcub 6 December 2020 15: 01
        +4
        Kostya, I join: R-38 is a handsome man. I wish I could shoot him just once.
        In my opinion the Germans had the best combination; quality and convenience
    3. saygon66
      saygon66 7 December 2020 01: 02
      +3
      - I was shooting with P08 ... All the same, this pistol is sharpened for shooting from one hand! smile
      - An interesting pistol Sauer 38 - very compact, and fits perfectly into the hand ...
  • Civil
    Civil 6 December 2020 08: 56
    +7
    Excellent article - the author is waiting for the continuation. good
  • faiver
    faiver 6 December 2020 10: 47
    +3
    As always, great material from Sergey good
  • alpamys
    alpamys 6 December 2020 11: 15
    +5
    And how many shoigu did he melt down the steps?
    1. beeper
      beeper 6 December 2020 13: 56
      +8
      Quote: alpamys
      And how many shoigu did he melt down the steps?

      hi It's a bad thing, simple, you don't need a lot of intelligence! request
      I could have sold all those weapons at auction, so not only the steps, but the entire temple could have been clothed in gold!
      Although .... maybe, under the brand name "remelting on a step", this rare trophy weapon went on sale ?! winked
      1. saygon66
        saygon66 7 December 2020 01: 09
        +4
        - On the "Weapon hunter" channel, they somehow showed dozens of boxes with old weapons - like from Ukraine ... SVT, SKS ... Why shouldn't our merchants from the Ministry of Defense use the same ?! Moreover, prices for SVT 40 start at two green thousand ...
        1. beeper
          beeper 7 December 2020 06: 43
          +3
          Quote: saygon66
          - On the "Weapon hunter" channel, they somehow showed dozens of boxes with old weapons - like from Ukraine ... SVT, SKS ... Why shouldn't our merchants from the Ministry of Defense use the same ?! Moreover, prices for SVT 40 start at two green thousand ...

          hi This is the richest arsenal in Nizhyn, near Kiev, to the ugly "welded" American "intermediaries", supplied with "markdowns" and "wholesale discounts" (maybe it still supplies, have not all been taken out by military "gesheftmachers" with a Kiev "roof"? ??) - both trophy and brand new Lend-Lease weapons were, even under the Soviet Union, plentifully stockpiled, not only domestic! request
          1. saygon66
            saygon66 7 December 2020 13: 08
            +3
            - I liked the host's reaction:
            - "Oh! SKS! Look - with a bayonet!" The bayonet is attached ...
            - "Can I pierce something ?!"
            - "No!" - The storekeeper steps back slightly ...
            - "Well, at least something!"
            - "No!!"
            - Quietly into the box with a bayonet - TYK! laughing
    2. vladcub
      vladcub 6 December 2020 14: 46
      -1
      Actually, the steps were closed up: rifles and machine guns.
      To be honest, I don't see the point of keeping such crap for 60 years.
      1. alpamys
        alpamys 6 December 2020 18: 05
        +8
        15 years ago, in the shooting range where I go to shoot, there was talk about a couple of cars with trophy barrels that came from Russia to Germany, which would be sold to collectors.
        you have to be on top of your head to get little benefit from a lot of money.
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 6 December 2020 21: 23
          +2
          In fact, S.K. became Minister of Defense about 8-9 years ago, and then there was "Taburetkin"
      2. Alf
        Alf 6 December 2020 19: 56
        +7
        Quote: vladcub
        Actually, the steps were closed up: rifles and machine guns.
        To be honest, I don't see the point of keeping such crap for 60 years.

        Do many of our museums have a German shooter?
        1. vladcub
          vladcub 6 December 2020 21: 25
          0
          In this case, the question is: why didn't you think about it before?
          1. Alf
            Alf 6 December 2020 21: 38
            +10
            Quote: vladcub
            In this case, the question is: why didn't you think about it before?

            And our government thinks little at all, and especially about museums. Her interests are in forging dough on the pipe and serving the Clan.
    3. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 7 December 2020 11: 44
      +5
      Quote: alpamys
      And how many shoigu did he melt down the steps?

      In total, 800 Parabellums and Walters each, 1200 98k carbines and about a dozen Maschinengewehr 42 are supposed to be utilized from the Wehrmacht's captured small arms stored at the base of the Wehrmacht to create a temple.

      These are 16 boxes of pistols, 60 boxes of carbines and 3-4 boxes of machine guns. Or just 8 "stacks" of boxes in the warehouse of the RAV Service.
  • Alien From
    Alien From 6 December 2020 11: 17
    +4
    Thanks to the author, the photos are great, we look forward to continuing)
  • Yulaevich
    Yulaevich 6 December 2020 11: 27
    +3
    The Astra 300 is a Spanish self-loading pistol developed by the Astra-Unceta arms company. It is a smaller version of the Astra 400 pistol, designed to use lower power cartridges. Produced on a German order, these captured pistols were awarded to our military during the war years
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 6 December 2020 17: 44
      +4
      Produced on a German order, these captured pistols were awarded to our military during the war
      Astra 600 chambered for 9x19 was produced "on German order".
      1. Yulaevich
        Yulaevich 6 December 2020 19: 41
        -1
        And the Astra 300 were produced, and the Astra 600, 300 were exactly awarded Soviet officers, I don't know about 600
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 6 December 2020 19: 49
          +5
          Astra 300 has been produced since 1923.
          1. Yulaevich
            Yulaevich 7 December 2020 08: 14
            -1
            Vika confirms that 300 were in service with the Reich, and I myself saw one premium Astra 300, held in my hands
          2. Yulaevich
            Yulaevich 7 December 2020 08: 20
            0
            I found information on Wikipedia, the Astra 300 were in service with Spain and the 3rd Reich, and I was holding the premium Astra 300 in my hands
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 7 December 2020 08: 53
              +4
              You did not understand me. This is not about whether this pistol was in service with the Wehrmacht, but about your statement - Produced for a German order,
              The Astra 300 pistol purchased by Germany did not suit the Germans due to the weak cartridge, therefore, the Astra 600 pistol chambered for 9x19 was designed and produced "for a German order".
              1. Yulaevich
                Yulaevich 7 December 2020 22: 48
                -1
                It doesn't matter, these pistols were in service with Germany, they were captured, they were awarded to Soviet officers, they were engraved with the names of the type of troops and the years of service of the awarded, that's what I wanted to say, but I don't know about 600, I didn't hold it in my hands
  • soloveyav
    soloveyav 6 December 2020 12: 41
    +4
    By the way, many trophies were somehow legalized (perhaps as premium), and from the stories of the grandfather they quite lived in their arms until the 60s, when they were seized or deposited.
  • Captain45
    Captain45 6 December 2020 13: 08
    +5
    Visiting the museum of the new Stalingrad panorama last year in one of the halls, where the personal weapons of the commanders of the troops (not the commanders of the platoon-regiment line) were displayed, it was striking that almost all the generals Chuikov, Rodimtsev, etc. etc. as personal weapons, they used mainly Mauser K-96, Walters PP and Browning, TT or revolvers, practically none.
    1. beeper
      beeper 6 December 2020 14: 03
      +2
      Quote: Captain45
      Visiting the museum of the new Stalingrad panorama last year in one of the halls, where the personal weapons of the commanders of the troops (not the commanders of the platoon-regiment line) were displayed, it was striking that almost all the generals Chuikov, Rodimtsev, etc. etc. as personal weapons, they used mainly Mauser K-96, Walters PP and Browning, TT or revolvers, practically none.

      hi It also caught my eye back in Soviet times!
      The Article does not say, but many Soviet military leaders, during the war and after, had Czech pistols as personal weapons!
      1. Bongo
        7 December 2020 03: 08
        +5
        Quote: pishchak
        The Article does not say, but many Soviet military leaders, during the war and after, had Czech pistols as personal weapons!

        I'm sorry, but this is beyond the scope of this post. It was only about German pistols. hi
        1. beeper
          beeper 7 December 2020 07: 12
          +3
          Quote: Bongo
          Quote: pishchak
          The Article does not say, but many Soviet military leaders, during the war and after, had Czech pistols as personal weapons!

          I'm sorry, but this is beyond the scope of this post. It was only about German pistols. hi

          hi This is, dear Author of the Article, Sergey Linnik, you will forgive me - I "automatically" wrote such a "preamble", also implying that it was "not within the framework of the Article under discussion" and without any thought to reproach or hurt you, the Author Your subtle Soul organization! request
          Now I have looked "in a new way" at my previous commentary and I see that its introduction can be interpreted in two ways. I'm sorry! request
          And henceforth I realized that I need to carefully select words and phrases when commenting under your Articles! yes
          All Kind and Creative Success to you, Sergey! good
          1. zyablik.olga
            zyablik.olga 7 December 2020 07: 42
            +7
            Quote: pishchak
            Quote: Bongo
            Quote: pishchak
            The Article does not say, but many Soviet military leaders, during the war and after, had Czech pistols as personal weapons!

            I'm sorry, but this is beyond the scope of this post. It was only about German pistols. hi

            hi This is, dear Author of the Article, Sergey Linnik, you will forgive me - I "automatically" wrote such a "preamble", also implying that it was "not within the framework of the Article under discussion" and without any thought to reproach or hurt you, the Author Your subtle Soul organization! request
            Now I have looked "in a new way" at my previous commentary and I see that its introduction can be interpreted in two ways. I'm sorry! request
            And henceforth I realized that I need to carefully select words and phrases when commenting under your Articles! yes
            All Kind and Creative Success to you, Sergey! good

            You have amused me about the "subtle mental organization". good Considering that Seryozha has worked for the state for more than 25 years, engaging in very specific activities, and spends most of his free time in the taiga, his "mental organization" is really very "fine". lol Of course I love him very much, but he is still a bastard.
            1. beeper
              beeper 7 December 2020 11: 32
              +5
              Quote: zyablik.olga
              Quote: pishchak
              Quote: Bongo
              Quote: pishchak
              The Article does not say, but many Soviet military leaders, during the war and after, had Czech pistols as personal weapons!

              I'm sorry, but this is beyond the scope of this post. It was only about German pistols. hi

              hi This is, dear Author of the Article, Sergey Linnik, you will forgive me - I "automatically" wrote such a "preamble", also implying that it was "not within the framework of the Article under discussion" and without any thought to reproach or hurt you, the Author Your subtle Soul organization! request
              Now I have looked "in a new way" at my previous commentary and I see that its introduction can be interpreted in two ways. I'm sorry! request
              And henceforth I realized that I need to carefully select words and phrases when commenting under your Articles! yes
              All Kind and Creative Success to you, Sergey! good

              You have amused me about the "subtle mental organization". good Considering that Seryozha has worked for the state for more than 25 years, engaging in very specific activities, and spends most of his free time in the taiga, his "mental organization" is really very "fine". lol Of course I love him very much, but he is still a bastard.

              hi Thank you, Olga, for your answer! yes
              I think that I am forgiven and that you are too strict with your life partner! wink
              All of us are not without flaws and, over the years, building up the callous "thick skin", inside we remain the same childishly vulnerable! winked
              All to you with Sergey Wonderful and Strong Health! drinks
              1. zyablik.olga
                zyablik.olga 7 December 2020 11: 37
                +7
                Quote: pishchak
                All to you with Sergey Wonderful and Strong Health!

                Thank you! And you do not have to be ill!
                Quote: pishchak
                I think that I am forgiven and that you are too strict with your life partner!

                We love each other, but I am far from idealizing Seryozha. A fine mental organization is not about him. No.
                1. Catfish
                  Catfish 7 December 2020 16: 07
                  +2
                  Sorry Olga love , but could not resist. Just a joke. smile
  • Undecim
    Undecim 6 December 2020 13: 26
    +6
    Unfortunately, the format of this publication does not allow us to tell about all the pistols used in the armed forces of Nazi Germany.
    Given the planned continuation, you can still try to present at least German-made pistols.
    In calibers 7,65 and 6,35 there are a number of interesting samples.

    Pistol Mauser 1934.

    Sauer 38H pistol.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 6 December 2020 13: 32
      +5

      Pistol Haenel-Schmeisser M1 1920
      1. vladcub
        vladcub 6 December 2020 13: 49
        +2
        VN, in your top photo: "hunchback"? I remember it visually, but the years of release ?? Somewhere lies the book: "Small arms", but where? If she was close at hand, I looked and was good, but I don't remember
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 6 December 2020 13: 57
          +3
          The caption under the photo is "Mauser 1934". Produced from 1934 to 1941.
          The question is - if you have a computer at hand, why do you need a book?
    2. Bongo
      7 December 2020 03: 10
      +4
      Quote: Undecim
      Given the planned continuation, you can still try to present at least German-made pistols.

      In this cycle, I plan to consider all the German weapons that were used by us, or transferred to the allies of the USSR. hi But I'm done with the pistols.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 6 December 2020 13: 41
    +2
    Sergey, to work ++++++! But for the sake of truth, you have a small inaccuracy: in the picture there is a Nagant and a Luger-Parabelum, not a TT
    1. Bongo
      7 December 2020 03: 13
      +5
      Quote: vladcub
      Sergey, to work ++++++! But for the sake of truth, you have a small inaccuracy: in the picture there is a Nagant and a Luger-Parabelum, not a TT

      Is it?
  • vladcub
    vladcub 6 December 2020 15: 06
    +2
    Quote: Hunter 2
    Konstantin, had the opportunity to shoot with Lahti ... the fight is good, but the material of manufacture is poor. The Germans made samples of higher quality (in terms of steel). But ... but a rarity - Rare. hi

    The Finns did not have enough money for high-quality metal, while the Germans traditionally: high-quality metal
  • dgonni
    dgonni 6 December 2020 16: 12
    +2
    In that war, the Doyches also had a Bedgian Browning which is a high power. Strong cannon. In his youth, they dug up such and even shot a young man. Until the district police officer took it away. Well at least they didn't drag me to court.
    Although it seems to me that he has remained in his stash.
    1. Okolotochny
      Okolotochny 7 December 2020 12: 50
      +3
      Colleague, what about Bogomolov's Moment of Truth? The use of saboteurs Browning Long 07?
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 7 December 2020 16: 22
        +3
        Hi Aleksey. hi You and dgonni (Djon) mean different models, if Long 07 ideally fit into the holster for TT, then for High-Power it was already noticeably small.

        1. Okolotochny
          Okolotochny 8 December 2020 12: 26
          +5
          Greetings. I didn't mean High Power. I meant that the Germans used a different Browning model as well. Although I am based on the artist.
  • Normal ok
    Normal ok 6 December 2020 16: 14
    -2
    In our unit, back in the 80s, several TTs, Nagans and Parabellums were stored.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 6 December 2020 18: 27
    +5
    The pistol, created by the company "Walter", was officially adopted by the Wehrmacht on 20 April 1940 under the designation P.38 (Pistole 38).
    The pistol was originally called the Armee Pistole, produced since 1936 and had a hidden trigger location. About 200 of these pistols, with different barrel lengths, were produced, but nevertheless, they came across as captured, at least to the Americans. Cost up to $ 70 at auctions.
    .
    And this option costs 110 dollars.

    Then the military demanded that the trigger be open. The open hammer version is called Mod. MP. In 1938, the pistol changed its name again, first to Heeres Pistolen (HP), then to P38, under which it became famous.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 7 December 2020 15: 00
      +1
      Hi victor hi
      And his "forerunner" was the Walther MP (MilitarPistole) introduced in 1935 for the 9x19 cartridge, but, as you know, the machine did not go into production, because the cartridge turned out to be too powerful for a system with a free shutter.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 7 December 2020 22: 41
        +3
        And there was also such a pistol.
        1. Catfish
          Catfish 8 December 2020 00: 23
          +3
          Yeah - "Baltiets". One - into one they ripped off.
  • Saxahorse
    Saxahorse 6 December 2020 19: 36
    +4
    I liked the article, thanks to the author! Yes, and people are interested, almost all comments on the topic, a lot of opinions :)

    I didn't have a chance to shoot from the Germans, but I didn't like the TT, it's uncomfortable and sharp, the APS is better. But the Nagant is quite interesting, especially with a preliminary platoon. The self-cocking is really a bit tough, only at close range and you will hit.

    By the way, an ideal weapon for self-defense, 7 rounds for two or three thugs is enough and several dozen people, both from the Saiga or a hard drive, cannot be put, it takes a long time to reload.
  • xomaNN
    xomaNN 6 December 2020 20: 25
    +4
    Currently, Walther PP and Walther PPK pistols are on the list of weapons that can be awarded to law enforcement officials, deputies and high-ranking officials.


    The general high level of technical culture in Germany made it possible to create excellent pistols, since they still serve as a coveted reward!

    And this does not detract from the merits of Soviet gunsmiths. Tokarev created a technologically advanced and cheaper TT, relying on the technical and economic base of the USSR in those years
  • acetophenon
    acetophenon 6 December 2020 21: 44
    +4
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    Nagant's bullet could stop a galloping horse, so it could stop a man all the more. One of the requirements of the tsarist generals when adopting a new revolver instead of the outdated Smith and Wesson was the ability to stop a new revolver with a bullet from a distance of 50 steps, which is about 35 meters, a cavalry horse galloping in attack.

    Repeating nonsense after someone is a good thing. Try to turn on your head! If a revolver would stop a horse 35 meters away, everyone would go to a large animal only with revolvers.
    1. Avior
      Avior 7 December 2020 03: 13
      +3
      there is an occasional opinion that a horse is especially sensitive to the shock of a bullet, even if it is not fatally wounded.
      I think this is a myth. Perhaps its reflection got into the TK (if the TK really had such a requirement).
      something like that
      Of course, it is impossible to stop a horse from a revolver, but to disrupt the attack of a cavalryman completely. It's just that a horse, even a calm, beaten, just sometimes goes crazy because of some kind of discomfort, the harness is incorrectly fitted, the back is rubbed with a saddle, or the smell from the rider (alcohol, smoke) or the rider (perfume) is hefty strong, and that's it, the animal is simply uncontrollable, well, if a bullet, then even more so.

      https://guns.allzip.org/topic/36/533205.html
      hi
      1. Bongo
        7 December 2020 03: 18
        +4
        Quote: Avior
        there is an occasional opinion that a horse is especially sensitive to the shock of a bullet, even if it is not fatally wounded.
        I think this is a myth. Perhaps its reflection got into the TK (if the TK really had such a requirement).
        https://guns.allzip.org/topic/36/533205.html
        hi

        Good morning! As for the shock effect, this is doubtful. No. Large animals are generally quite tough for a wound. I didn't shoot at horses, but red deer and moose deer, even from a carbine chambered for 7,62x54, have to hit the kill site. Otherwise, you can trail a wounded animal for a long time.
        1. Avior
          Avior 7 December 2020 03: 23
          +2
          means that the pain makes the horse uncontrollable, "carries" it.
          When, in childhood, I had to sit on a cart, the horse in the harness of which was frightened by a passing car, she jerked off without paying attention to the driver. something like that.
          perhaps this is a feature of the horse.
          1. Bongo
            7 December 2020 03: 27
            +2
            As I understand it, it was just about "stopping". If horse lava is attacking, what the horse "carried", in my opinion, will not have any effect on the course of the battle. In addition, cavalry horses were accustomed to the noise of shots and were well trained.
            1. Avior
              Avior 7 December 2020 03: 32
              +1
              I do not mean noise, but reactions from the pain of a bullet wound.
              Noise is me just for example.
              Well, it will rears up there, throw off the rider, jump in any direction, mix the lava and so on, the uncontrollable will become shorter. Something like that.
              but I have never seen any serious confirmation of this theory.
              1. Toucan
                Toucan 7 December 2020 08: 15
                +2
                In animals, the pain threshold is much lower than in humans. If it were as you say, cavalry would not be used at all in the war.
                1. Avior
                  Avior 7 December 2020 08: 27
                  +1
                  There is another opinion specifically about horses.
                  For example something like this
                  ... Horses have a very low pain tolerance. This means that they suffer much more pain than other animals. Therefore, the veterinarian must relieve suffering as quickly as possible.

                  A horse with colic is very anxious and may roll on the ground in pain.

                  https://animalregister.net/kurs-molodogo-veterinara/koliki-u-loshadey.html
        2. Catfish
          Catfish 7 December 2020 16: 11
          +3
          Sergei hi , I read with my own eyes that in the terms of reference for the competition for a new army pistol in the United States, one of the conditions was that a bullet, if hit, could stop a horse at a gallop. The competition was won by the Colt 1911.
        3. Korax71
          Korax71 7 December 2020 23: 41
          +2
          Sergey, great article good We are waiting for the continuation. IMHO: 7.62x54 for such a beast-200 + kilogram is rather weak stopping effect, for a hog it is the very thing. 338 wines are a magician for moose, the chance to leave is very, very small. hi it's not a shame to go to Misha with such lol
  • PilotS37
    PilotS37 7 December 2020 12: 32
    +5
    I can't say that I learned something new for myself (the Beetle rules!), But once again I admired these sharpened lines of real Works of art ...
    Thanks to the author! I just made you happy.
  • Gennady Fomkin
    Gennady Fomkin 7 December 2020 13: 39
    -5
    Quote: Pessimist22
    The ROC is fat bearded men who crush the people on geliks, to whom grandmothers bring money and who promise a good life after death, and now they are asked to endure and work for oligarchs for a penny?

    Don't like it, work for yourself. laughing
  • Reserve officer
    Reserve officer 7 December 2020 18: 07
    +3
    Many thanks to the author for the article. I read it and looked at the photo with pleasure.
    Pistols and revolvers are generally my addiction. I was given the master of sports of the USSR in pistol bullet shooting (exercise MP-8, high-speed shooting, the so-called "Olympic jacket") in 1979, and I received the officer's shoulder straps in 1984. So in shooting sports training was crucial.
    We were somehow hooligans in the shooting range, shooting from waist level at the swinging bank. Weapons - pistols Margolin, Khaidurovsky XP-64 and his own TOZ-36 revolver. So, no one hit the pistols. And the arrows - CCM and MS. But from a revolver - almost everything.
    It's just that the revolver is an extension of the hand, very comfortable shooting, the vertical is perfectly caught. But when firing a pistol from waist level - the position of the hand is unnatural, hence the misses. And I still really appreciate the convenience of a grip in pistols and revolvers in different hand positions, this is the basis of normal shooting.
    If according to personal preferences, then the most to my liking of the combat ones are Walter P38 and Nagant. And from sports - the famous Margolin and TOZ-36. TT and PM are not very good, I just have a wide brush, the grip is uncomfortable, my little finger hangs. Mauser did not understand at all, it was inconvenient to hold. By the way, the Czech CZ is also interesting. I didn’t have to shoot from others, we can only estimate it in absentia. And I would very much like to hold it in my hands.
  • Gregory Charnota
    Gregory Charnota 7 December 2020 18: 27
    0
    YES LUGER IS SEX IN THE WEAPON WORLD !!!
  • KSVK
    KSVK 10 December 2020 22: 22
    -1
    One of the main advantages of the "Parabellum" is its high firing accuracy, achieved due to the comfortable handle with a large angle of inclination and easy descent.

    I beg your pardon, author, but did you personally shoot the P08? Or your information from Wikipedia? Try it. After you try it, you won't post such nonsense. This is me about the "easy descent". Especially for "minusers".
    1. Toucan
      Toucan 12 December 2020 02: 45
      +1
      The article was read by over 60 people, and among them were probably those who fired from the Parabellum. But only you made such a claim to the author request Do I understand correctly, you are super competently undertaking to assert that the P.08's descent is uncomfortable and tighter than that of the TT?
      1. zyablik.olga
        zyablik.olga 12 December 2020 08: 56
        +3
        Quote: Tucan
        More than 60 people read the article ...

        More than 90 thousand ....
  • zenion
    zenion 11 December 2020 19: 58
    +3
    I knew one person who worked as a saboteur during the war. It was on Victory Day, when our enterprise passed in a column, then afterwards they decided to wash this matter. He invited him to his home. There they also added vodka "Polish elections" 45 degrees. And he decided to show what he had left after the war and he put out several pistols and each had a label, for which he was awarded. And he could shoot with two hands quite accurately, like "In August 44 ...". Every time he showed his capabilities, they gave him a gun. He already said - maybe you have mercy, why do I need so many pistols. So he was presented with a cut for uniforms. So he then went and changed it to a silk fabric for his wife. Here the wife showed how her dress was sewn in early January 1945. Divo is probably either from China or Japan. I forgot to write his last name, let the earth rest in peace - Grab Nikolai.
  • KSVK
    KSVK 13 December 2020 11: 57
    +1
    Quote: Tucan
    The article was read by over 60 people, and among them were probably those who fired from the Parabellum. But only you made such a claim to the author request

    I wonder how many of those 60000 were holding the P08? And how much of it was shot?
    Quote: Tucan

    Do I understand correctly, you are super competently undertaking to assert that the P.08's descent is uncomfortable and tighter than that of the TT?


    And here TT? The author claims that the P08 has an "easy descent" and this is its advantage. But for me, the descent of the parabellum is very hard and completely uninformative.
  • Nazaroff
    Nazaroff 13 December 2020 13: 05
    +1
    The fact that the TT-Schnick has no ergonomics is a fact! I had a chance to shoot both from TT, and from German, WWII pistols. The difference in the convenience and comfort of holding is significant! Why did the Germans, how did they design everything in a thoughtful way? Considering the factor that the comfort of holding in the hand will be directly related to the effectiveness (read - survival in combat conditions of the shooter) of shooting! WHAT prevented the same Tokarev from making his brainchild more convenient and comfortable? Lack of brains, or according to the principle - "for the army and so it will do"? It's elementary - to make a layout so that 10 people with hands of different sizes can hold this layout. Correct, bring the shape to the overall comfort. Just. Although, the impression is that it is in our blood. Compare modern Russian pistols, the same "Gyurza" and "Glock", with regards to ergonomics ...
  • Andrey Pozdnyakov
    Andrey Pozdnyakov 24 December 2020 21: 43
    0
    Thank you for the article. It is a pity that only German-made pistols were considered in it. I have long been interested in the Hungarian pistol Frommer (Femaru) 37M. Of course, there is information about him, but more and more official, performance characteristics. And the weapon is interesting. Unfortunately, little is known in the mass culture. And, of course, the "users" reviews are interesting. But alas ...