The West explained the weapon "voids" on the ship "Pavel Derzhavin"

On November 27, the new patrol ship of the Russian Navy "Pavel Derzhavin" began full-fledged combat service. The network drew attention to a number of striking armory "Voids" that commentators saw in the nose of the pennant.

In general, many once again sharply criticized project 22160, which includes a new ship with a total displacement of 1800 tons. It is noted for its extremely weak armament, in fact, represented only by the 76-mm artillery mount AK-176MA.

Even Ukrainian armored boats are superior in firepower to these large, but useless ships. At least those ATGMs have

- writes one of the readers who questioned the combat effectiveness of the new unit of the Russian fleet.

At the same time, a number of commentators saw the weapon "voids" that could be used to enhance the ship's fire. We are talking about the space in the bow of the MRK between the gun turret and the superstructure. In particular, it is proposed to place the Shtil-1 air defense system here, if the free volume of the hull allows.

However, such "experts" did not take into account the modular nature of the ship. And in the West they are well aware of the combat potential of RTOs. So, the resource Arkeonaval published an image of the project 22160 ship with systems installed on board, which explains where the weapon "voids" came from.

The bow of the ship provides for the placement of anti-aircraft guided missiles in a special module. On the helipad, depending on the needs, it is possible to install various containerized systems: KR "Caliber", "Uranus" or equipment for a towed hydroacoustic station.

Comments

[Lech from Android.]

Will a Zircon launcher fit in there?

[Temples]

Who will install this or that module and when?
How long does it take to install the module?
And who will use the weapon of this module if the team does not have weapons on the ship by default, and therefore does not have any experience with it.

It turns out not a ship, but a bucket.

The modules were invented by gamers. They cut into the computer instead of the service.

In case of a surprise attack, these clowns will ask the aggressor to wait while they order to install modules on empty ships.
And someone (wizards) will quickly install and train personnel to fight using these modules.
Another batch of wizards is currently engaged in the production of these same modules.

[Eugene-Eugene]

The main initially specified feature of the new ships [of the "Freedom" class] was their modular construction

At the beginning of March 2017, the next test launches of AGM-7L-114A Hellfire short-range multipurpose tactical missiles were made from the American littoral warship LCS-8 USS "Detroit" (class "Freedom") [...] promising vertical launch modules SSMM ("Surface-to-Surface Missile Module") were used as launchers

[pin_code]

my personal opinion .. initially these ships were unprofitable. but if suddenly ... a circle formed ..

[Lex_is]

Only now they still have no modules in service.

This is the Surface-to-Surface:

SSMM transitioned to production in FY2019 and will deliver first production
asset in FY21. On track to complete procurement of SSMMs in FY24

It is planned to start purchasing in 21.
The rest is the same:
Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) - Under development.

On track to achieve ASW MP IOC in FY20

Mine Countermeasures (MCM) - R&D is scheduled for FY21.

Plan to conduct MCM MP developmental / operational testing in FY21 and achieve IOC in FY22

[Cympak]

And how many years have American LCS been waiting for these modules? The first LCS went into operation in 2008-2010. These ships are saved only by the presence of multifunctional helicopters.
The concept of replaceable modules on warships has failed in the world.

[Yuriy71]

I absolutely agree with you! I have long wanted to write about it, but this site loves me very much Warnings and ban "for the truth"! And on this "bucket" the "population" is already 80 people! What are they doing there !?

[Sidor Amenpodestovich]

Quote: Yuriy71

I have long wanted to write about this, but this site loves me very much Warnings and ban "for the truth"!

Publish on another site. Or is it important for you that your article should appear on VO? Or is it not about an article?

[bar]

Why does he need a weapon? From it, no one will shoot at a peaceful howl anyway.
Will "bulk" displace the foe from the sovereign territory. And the Ukrope "armored boats" will simply trample like an elephant. For this he is so heavy

[donavi49]

No. Everything is sad with him with the chassis and dynamic, as well as with the maneuverability compared to the boat. Just islands or armored boats can twist and make terrible faces around it. It was not made for this.

And why? Its use in the World Cup = bringing the conflict to the level of the fleet. This is already a serious scandal with all the consequences. There are specialized ships on site, we need services. Which have many times better dynamic and driving characteristics, more suitable weapons (or even reinforced like the Arkhangelsk Syktyvkar - which was transferred from the north, to constant reinforcement, and there, in addition to 76, there are 306 more).

[Alexey RA]

Quote: donavi49

Which have many times better dynamic and driving characteristics, more suitable weapons (or even reinforced like the Arkhangelsk Syktyvkar - which was transferred from the north, to constant reinforcement, and there, in addition to 76, there are 306 more).

It is not Syktyvkar's armament that is reinforced - it is weakened in the late 10410s.
Initially, the Fireflies carried the AK-176 and AK-630. Then - a pair of AK-306. By the last series, the armament had shrunk to one AK-306.

[ermak124.0]

Khramov, you were not consulted. I understand, it's a shame ...

[ccsr]

Quote: Temples

And who will use the weapon of this module if the team does not have weapons on the ship by default, and therefore does not have any experience with it.
It turns out not a ship, but a bucket.

Before arguing this, you'd better talk to the old armed men and they will tell you how some complex weapons systems are designed with the task of placing in them a new system that is still being created, and not necessarily the missiles in the bow. Due to the fact that there is a mismatch in the timing of the simultaneous completion of work for various reasons, it turns out that not everything that was laid down during the design process can be installed on a ship leaving the shipyard. Should it be kept for many months or years at the factory or installed old, which are created to replace new products? This has not been done before, which is why a seemingly "raw" ship may not be the fault of the designers, but just the situation when other products are not ready for installation on it. But this I proceed from what I know from other types of weapons and equipment of the Soviet period, when a new ZAS technique was already planned for the product being created, which was not yet in nature, but its development was already underway at the NS Armed Forces - in the eighties it was " Historian ". So it is best to hear the opinion of experts, not Timokhin and Mina, but those who really know the situation in ordering structures.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: ccsr

Before arguing this, you'd better talk to the old armed men and they will tell you how some complex weapons systems are designed with the task of placing in them a new system that is still being created, and not necessarily the missiles in the bow.

You see what's the matter ... it's one thing - some weapons systems (the same ever-memorable "Dagger" on Project 1155), and the other - all weapons systems except the basic ones.
In Soviet realities, Project 22160 for 2020 is 1155, delivered with a couple of "hundred parts" and helicopters. Without "Daggers", without PLUR, without TA, without "Polynomial". Or "Albatross" with one AK-176.

[ccsr]

Quote: Alexey RA

You see what's the matter ... it's one thing - some weapon systems

I am explaining to you in a simple way - when designing complex systems, it is ALLOWED to install on them what has not yet been created and is in development. What exactly is with this ship and why it is not staffed as the local "experts" want to see, I do not know, but it is better to know the opinion of those who are hacking in this matter. And guessing is a thankless task - here we still won't find out the truth, and only perhaps in many years someone will clarify this situation, when there is nothing to hide.

[Grits]

Quote: Temples

Another batch of wizards is currently engaged in the production of these same modules.

And the third party of wizards on the shore is busy with loading and unloading operations, installation and dismantling, as well as storage and maintenance

[Alekseev]

Quote: Temples

then and when will this or that module be installed?
How long does it take to install the module?
And who will use the weapon of this module if the team does not have weapons on the ship by default, and therefore does not have any experience with it.

Reasonable questions.
But are, of course, interesting answers to them intended for publications in the media?

[rubin6286]

You are right in many ways

[Civil]

So we bought such a complete set ...

[KCA]

"Caliber", "Onyx" and "Zircon" have one and the same PU 3S14

[Cympak]

The launcher is one, but the control panels are different :(

[Mar.Tirah]

Quote: Lech from Android.

Will a Zircon launcher fit in there?

It is strange that you offer strike missile weapons for a class 3 ship designed to protect coastal territory? It is not intended for this. Of course, I would like more powerful ships, but this one is also not bad for its assembly.

[Cympak]

The Russian Coast Guard is assigned to the FSB, which has the appropriate patrol ships.
And the ships of the project 22160 with an autonomy of 60 days are intended for patrolling far from their native shores. But they were not even entrusted with escorting the Akademik Chersky pipe-laying vessel ....

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Cympak

The Russian Coast Guard is assigned to the FSB, which has the appropriate patrol ships.

... and for which the 22160 was originally designed.
And now the fleet is trying to somehow justify the need to order a PSKR for the Navy - because no one wants to be responsible for this. So they are inventing either modularity or basing the Ka-22160 with anti-ship missiles for Project 52.

[Cympak]

https://mtdata.ru/u18/photo2CAC/20212655320-0/original.jpg

There are also known personalities ("Every mistake has a name and surname" (c)), from which you need to ask:
- OSK chief adviser Viktor Chirkov, who ordered this ship when he was Commander-in-Chief of the Navy
- the former heads of the Northern PKB Vladimir Sviridopulo, who designed "this"

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Cympak

- OSK chief adviser Viktor Chirkov, who ordered this ship when he was Commander-in-Chief of the Navy

If he just ordered 22160, that's half the trouble. But in fact, for the sake of ordering patrol ships, the Navy refused to develop a new OVR corvette - as unpromising.

Glavkomat does not see prospects in the creation of ships, previously designated as "Corvette IAD". One of the main tasks of the OVR is to ensure the protection and defense of the naval forces in the areas of naval bases and in the adjacent territories. This task is now carried out by onshore observation means, stationary hydroacoustic stations and coastal missile-artillery troops, armed with anti-ship missiles of different ranges, as well as anti-submarine and strike aircraft.
Having abandoned the corvette, the Navy turned to the idea of ​​creating patrol ships - less armed, but with greater autonomy and versatility, capable, among other things, of going on long voyages. The development of the patrol ship project will be carried out by OJSC "Severnoye Design Bureau

© Navy Commander Chirkov
And six years later, the Navy is frantically trying to find how to plug the hole in the OVR. Because anti-submarine aviation in the face of eight modernized Il-38s is not enough for all fleets, Albatrosses still dear Michal Sergeich remember, and out of 22160 PLO ship - as a lawyer from Feigin.

[Mar.Tirah]

Quote: Alexey RA

... and for which the 22160 was originally designed.

This is what I wanted to convey. And pulling one on top of the other is only possible because of the problem with the fleet. Of course, you can experiment as with cars, for example, but we do not have time for this. Almost not,

[lopuhan2006]

He needs a Package (not an ideal of course), not a Caliber with Zircon. Give you a barge and stick your Zirconia Caliber on it. By the same logic, on Tu-204 and Superjets bombs, on KAMAZ turrets from a tank ...

[Cympak]

For the "Package" you need a normal keel GAS and BUGAS is desirable

[lopuhan2006]

I no longer wrote about it (((Vignette is not an option, but even this is not

[Sofa]

A suitcase without a handle, which is 22160 which is 22386.

[lopuhan2006]

22386 there is hope not to see)

[Sofa]

Well, at least some kind of hope

[Boris Chernikov]

well, if it is stuffed into a Klaba container .. yes ..

[Vlad Pervovich]

Even Ukrainian armored boats are superior in firepower to these large, but useless ships. At least those ATGMs have
yes we saw this POWER a year ago, under the bridge ...

[Cympak]

And what if Ukrainian armored boats opened fire on the coast guard patrolmen?

[lopuhan2006]

Did they shoot? And if they were fired? Of course for the last time, but ours would also have flown

[Ros 56]

And there, specially for the adversaries, the shaitan-gun is planned. But not everyone is supposed to know about it.

[faiver]

shaitan-gun planned

- flint caramultut of 152mm caliber?

[Stirbjorn]

In particular, it is proposed to place the Shtil-1 air defense system here, if the free volume of the hull allows.

The third ship in the ranks, why has not been placed until now, I wonder? So far, everyone is walking with one gun. So for now, this "modularity" is skeptical. Like she is, but no one even tests her

[donavi49]

Residential modules in the nose. There is nothing to post already.

Why not? Because the Navy ordered these ships with a clear task - at any cost (preferably not) to save the BOD, TFR, Cruiser for the fleet. Which, performing the tasks of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief off the coast of the Horn of Africa, began to die in batches. And in the foreseeable future, all BNKs of the 1st rank would die. The fleet cannot tell the Supreme Commander-in-Chief - we will not follow the order.

It is quite another matter that this is Russia. Here even a relatively simple ship turns into a long-term construction, which is made longer than a FREMM or UDC thread. Therefore, when the patrolmen were ripe, the task of constant patrolling in distant seas, by itself, disappeared. As well as a third of rank 1 BNKs, which are still under repair by the way. Even if you do not take Chabanenko with whom everything is complicated, then the same Undaunted, it is being repaired longer than it was built, even despite the collapse of the USSR and underfunding of the final stage of completion. At the same time, there is no modernization, the usual average.

[V1er]

It would be much easier and cheaper to create ships without modules and in the same configuration. Cheaper and will also save cruisers.

[donavi49]

What modules are there? It is in the ships ordered by the Ministry of Defense that there are no modules. .

One slot in the hangar version for an assault boat. The second slot is designed for 20 / 40f containers. For example, in Tartus to throw something on the way. Or take a group of divers, a bunch of equipment and a couple of lightweight underwater drones. Again, for example, he is patrolling the area and someone fell / drowned / lost nearby, throw a group and equipment by plane into Sudan or Djibouti (and if it’s very hard, even in Tartus), install it on a ship and run away, it will be faster than pushing NIS out of the Baltic. Or even from Novorossiysk. And in such a case the day will be decisive.

In general, he has one multifunctional site available. You can place refugees there. Or a sorting area. Or quarantine. Or loads. Or something in container design. However, similar zones are the norm with modern ships. And this has nothing to do with modularity.

[Cympak]

And how many times did the patrol boats of Project 22160 serve in the Gulf of Aden, saving the resource of the BOD and TFR? Not at all .....

[donavi49]

Because long-term construction. For 5 years, the need disappeared and the Supreme Commander removed this task. But the military should not hope that it will resolve itself. Therefore, if I had not taken it off, they would have been patrolling, and the walls with corpses under repair would have been packed more densely. At the peak of the patrol on the ground, 1 nuclear cruiser, 1 BOD and 1 conditionally running destroyer remained, and at the Pacific Fleet - 2 BODs and 1 destroyer.

[Alex 2020]

Modules ... modules ... and who saw these modules in metal? The infrastructure for storing and maintaining them? (cartoons and pictures are not a fact of the presence of these modules).

[Antifreeze]

it is possible, depending on the needs, to install various containerized systems: KR "Caliber", "Uranus" or equipment for a towed hydroacoustic station

Found a submarine, but nothing to drown. Or there are 91P1 anti-submarine missiles, but there is no GAS.

[New Year day]

... In particular, it is proposed to place the Shtil-1 air defense system here, if the free volume of the hull allows.

"The commander says to the adversary: ​​wait my dear, wait I'll be back, they'll install the missiles for me and I'll come back, just don't rush to shoot. He enters the base, but the missiles don't fit, there is not enough space.
Free translation written by the author

[Andre___86]

And if the modules?)))))

[svp67]

Even Ukrainian armored boats are superior in firepower to these large, but useless ships. At least those ATGMs have

That is, they are, only in sea conditions they DO NOT WORK, that's certainly USELESS weapons

[faiver]

Does ATGM have a firing range greater than 76mm guns?

[Tsoy]

It looks like a Russian LCS with the same combat effectiveness. The calculation for modularity turned out to be a failure. The United States admitted that there were no modules, the manufacturers could not provide an acceptable cost and time frame for replacing these modules. Plans have already appeared to write off the ships of the first series, because they are not able to provide the assigned tasks. Some kind of sur. The United States is laying down new freedoms and at the same time writing off the recently in service. In vain we decided to follow in their footsteps.

[Cympak]

So the idea to cancel the OVR corvette, and instead build an offshore patrol vessel (OPV-offshore patrol vessel), the future 22160, came to the minds of our "withers" after they visited Washington in July 2013. There they, you see, and "sang" about the indisputable advantages and flexibility of the use of LCS ships.

[Lex_is]

VO news confidently breaks the bottom.

And in the West they are well aware of the combat potential of RTOs. So, the resource Arkeonaval published an image of the project 22160 ship with systems installed on board, which explains where the weapon "voids" came from.

Well, you must! The authoritative western resource Arkeonaval published.
This is what this authoritative post looks like:

We are waiting for fresh insights about weapons 22160 from Baba Glasha from 3 front door.

[Tektor]

And now the module with Hermes can be the most versatile: cheap and cheerful. Within a radius of 100 km, it will cover any target with a CEP of 0,5 m. The kinetic energy of the projectile is important: it will break through everything.

[Cympak]

Registering "Hermes" on Project 22160 is a good idea if you have a UAV with a "laser pointer". But neither the module with the Hermes, nor the UAV based (and the space for it has been reserved) has not yet been seen on Project 22160. And where to put it? You need a turntable to guide it.

[Tektor]

Yes, the turntable can be placed on the helicopter hangar: it is light. And load from the hangar from the bottom with lifters near the wall.

[Cympak]

I doubt that the roof of the helicopter hangar will withstand the mass and jet stream when the rocket is launched. Besides, there are antennas nearby. High location, therefore significant restrictions on the use at the slightest pitching. An extremely unfortunate place.

[Tektor]

It is possible not to the hangar itself, but to make consoles-balconies to the right and left along the sides. It is easier to calculate the balcony according to the loads. Well, more azimuths will be shot through.

[Growlers]

Commentators, political scientists, self-appointed experts. Some "specialists" have nowhere to spit and have never studied well, perhaps in a vocational school, it does not matter which American or Soviet

[ermak124.0]

sofa bearers!

[Sofa]

And you are not one of them

[Growlers]

No, I don't ...

[Sofa]

What are you doing here then ???

[Alexey RA]

The bow of the ship provides for the placement of anti-aircraft guided missiles in a special module. On the helipad, depending on the needs, it is possible to install various containerized systems: KR "Caliber", "Uranus" or equipment for a towed hydroacoustic station.

Of all this splendor, 6 years after the order of the ships and 2 years after the entry into service of the head one, there is only the GAS module.
Oh yes - placement anti-aircraft guided missiles in a special module in the bow is impossible. The place has already been taken by residential and utility premises.

[musorg]

In a fleeting war, there will be no one to install weapons today.

[Basarev]

Does the ship really need its own artillery and missiles? Isn't it better to put a hangar for a couple of helicopters?

[Cympak]

Helicopters will not be able to take off in any weather. Long reaction time - the helicopter will not be able to fly in immediately when a threat is detected (for example, an enemy speedboat jumped out from behind a cape). Low level of constant readiness - helicopters will not be able to physically operate in 24x7 mode.

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

Once again, for the "experts" of Project 22160, this is a ship not for war with enemy ships, but for protecting ships from pirates like the Sami who recently terrorized civilian ships in the Horn of Africa.

Project 22160 does not need either an air defense missile system or a UKSK with Caliber, it is quite enough for him and a 57-mm cannon with 12,7 machine guns, he will not have to use anything else + there is a helicopter and an armored speed boat in the dock for inspection.

Among other things, Project 22160 has an autonomy of 60 days against, for example, 15 for the corvette 20380.

Among other things, this patrol ship can accommodate 80 Marines.

Project 22160 may not be ideal, but it was created for its own tasks and is best suited for them.

Chasing a nuclear cruiser to fight pirates is too wasteful, like destroyers with corvettes.

[Cympak]

So we are waiting for them to be used for their intended purpose. Instead of chasing pirates off the coast of, for example, West Africa, these patrol boats "rub against" our shores, carrying out, together with other warships, repelling air attacks, fighting submarines and clearing mines ....
This leads to some bad thoughts about their suitability as an OPV.

[Ratmir_Ryazan]

We still have nuclear weapons, they also need to be used faster for their intended purpose ?!

It will be necessary to apply - they will apply.

Soon Russia will have a naval base in Sudan, so they will probably be sent there.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

Project 22160 does not need either an air defense missile system or a UKSK with Caliber, it is quite enough for him and a 57-mm cannon with 12,7 machine guns, he will not have to use anything else + there is a helicopter and an armored speed boat in the dock for inspection.

You can forget about using the DSL at sea right away: the slightest wave - and the DSL by the wheelhouse beats into the gate.

So that leaves one helicopter and a couple of "zodiacs".
And the question remains - why was it necessary to build a specialized anti-piracy carrier for one helicopter, if you could just take a ship built according to civilian standards and convert it into a base for several helicopters and inspection teams? It's still pointless to chase pirates on a ship, and the AK-176 is an overkill for them.

[Pavel57]

They know something that we do not know.

[Pavel57]

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

Once again, for the "experts" of Project 22160, this is a ship not for war with enemy ships, but for protecting ships from pirates like the Sami who recently terrorized civilian ships in the Horn of Africa.

Are pirates still relevant now?
And in the event of a big war, what to do with them?

[storm]

It seems that in Zelenodolsk some "saboteurs" have dug in and are designing solid "mutants"

Buyan-M is a trough for swimming in calm weather in a shallow place ...
Overly powerful and heavy 100mm AU, practically "zero" air defense in the absence of anti-submarine defense ...
But the price is 1,5 times more than for Karakurt pr. 22800.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: assault

Buyan-M is a trough for swimming in calm weather in a shallow place ...
Overly powerful and heavy 100mm AU, practically "zero" air defense in the absence of anti-submarine defense ...

With "Buyan-M" just everything is clear: the Ministry of Defense is very urgent, that's right, a "caliber carrier" ship was needed. Therefore, they took the only project of a small ship under construction at that time, which turned out to be the river and coastal IAC "Buyan" - and with minimal changes converted it into an RTO.
And the fact that then these RTOs began to drive to Mediterranean and beyond is not the designers' fault.

[Foxnova]

There is a gym instead of calm

[Protos]

Quote: Cympak

The Russian Coast Guard is assigned to the FSB, which has the appropriate patrol ships.
And the ships of the project 22160 with an autonomy of 60 days are intended for patrolling far from their native shores. But they were not even entrusted with escorting the Akademik Chersky pipe-laying vessel ....

In fact, Chatsky was walking from the Northern Fleet, and all of the project 22160 to the Black Sea Fleet!
Even the military has logistics
At our Black Sea Fleet this project is the most popular now, and the crews praise it very much

[Protos]

Quote: Pavel57

Quote: Ratmir_Ryazan

Once again, for the "experts" of Project 22160, this is a ship not for war with enemy ships, but for protecting ships from pirates like the Sami who recently terrorized civilian ships in the Horn of Africa.

Are pirates still relevant now?
And in the event of a big war, what to do with them?

In the event of a Big War, "the Strategic Missile Forces will decide

[Bshkaus]

Listen, I don’t care what’s foreseen on it. The main thing is that it is installed "here and now". When a 380 mm gun is installed on the bow or whatever can be modularly installed on it, then we'll talk.

[Alien From]

It seems this time most of the critics are right ...