Military Review

How Katukov's tank crews first encountered Guderian's 4th division near Orel

32

The initial stage of the Moscow strategic defensive operation is considered to be a defensive operation on the Bryansk-Orel line. The Nazis, having broken through the defenses near Bryansk in early October 1941, tried to build on their success in several directions at once.


Tank units of the Wehrmacht under the command of Guderian set out to take the Red Army units in this area into a tight ring, then destroy and move on without hindrance. At one of the stages of the operation, it seemed that our troops no longer had any chance. However, the German troops also suffered more than serious losses, and the Soviet troops managed to partially regroup and break through the encirclement.

The Nazis were stuck in the Orel region for two weeks. This, among other things, gave the command to pull up reserves from the Far East to Moscow.

In the battles of the autumn of 1941 near Orel, the Katukovites participated - the tankmen of Mikhail Katukov, who not only first met with the 4th Panzer Division of Heinz (Heinz) Guderian, but also inflicted significant damage on it in the Mtsensk area. Guderian, subsequently commenting on those events, noted that this was the first time that German tankers realized the obvious advantage of the T-34 tanks.

The historian Stanislav Sopov tells about the battles of the autumn of 1941 in the Orel region, about the combat operation of the Katuk tankers who inflicted the first tangible defeat on Guderian's division, about the superiority of the Soviet T-34s in the battles of Oryol and Mtsensk:

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  1. The comment was deleted.
  2. svp67
    svp67 29 November 2020 20: 26
    +4
    The T-34 gave the advantage to those who knew how to use it, alas, but in 41 not all of our tankers knew how to use it ...
    1. Alexander Suvorov
      Alexander Suvorov 29 November 2020 22: 23
      +31
      With proper handling, not only the T-34 or KV-1 yielded results, but the outdated T-28 could give heat. We are talking about the so-called "Minsk breakthrough of the T-28", because there is sheer heroism and a drop of luck and bad luck at the same time. A little more and the crew could break out into the operational space, and then free will. There were tanks, there were tankers, but in most cases at the beginning of the war there was the usual Russian or Russian carelessness. Just kill, but in fact it was so. Lack of ammunition, undersupply (logistics died), inability to correct malfunctions (and minor ones), this is the result of the first defeats of the Red Army. At the time of the attack on the USSR, the Wehrmacht had only not so much numerical as operational-tactical superiority. This taxied right up to Moscow, but then it began to slip strongly, and then the Wehrmacht broke down. And the notorious "general frost" has nothing to do with it. As soon as Napoleon or Hitler have successes, they are geniuses, as soon as defeats, the Russian winter, muddy roads and even hell knows what to blame, BUT ONLY THEY ARE NOT!
      1. svp67
        svp67 30 November 2020 05: 42
        0
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        It's about the so-called "Minsk breakthrough of T-28"

        Which historically has no confirmation, alas ...
        Quote: Alexander Suvorov
        At the time of the attack on the USSR, the Wehrmacht had only not so much numerical as operational-tactical superiority.

        The Wehrmacht had a STRATEGIC superiority, dictating its own rules
    2. Megatron
      Megatron 29 November 2020 22: 24
      +21
      And again a video article. What a fashion. Isn't it just text.
      1. Aerodrome
        Aerodrome 30 November 2020 02: 55
        +8
        Quote: Megatron
        And again a video article. What a fashion. Isn't it just text.

        without photo? 4 lines? frames are priceless. I’m sorry that Grandfather did not live to see the "Internet", we would sit with him, witness the events, and fish out the truth, over a glass of tea, but when he was alive, I was young and not far off. raise, and when he was gone, suddenly questions appeared, to which there was no one to answer. My biggest regret in life, and what I missed is to talk to Grandfather, all that I could now is to name my grandson in his honor.
    3. Dmitry V.
      Dmitry V. 30 November 2020 12: 57
      +3
      Quote: svp67
      The T-34 gave the advantage to those who knew how to use it, alas, but in 41 not all of our tankers knew how to use it ...


      The KV-1 mask was pierced - the most armored place of the KV.
      The meeting with the 8,8-cm-Flugabwehrkanone leaves no chance for the tankers in the open area - because they rushed forward to reduce the distance, only the speed of movement reduces the chances of being hit from 88.
      That the attack was carried out without reconnaissance is inexperience.

      Everlasting memory...
      1. Evil Booth
        Evil Booth 27 December 2020 15: 27
        -2
        is it somehow related to the huge vulnerability of the tiger? the benefit of tigers is several times less than a square meter, while it is stretched out in time, and cannons of the 8,8 type of current are one hundred or more mm, on the contrary, tens of times more. and then 8,8 is a shed with a size of 2 * 4 * 2 meters, which still needs to be rolled out to direct fire, it often needs to be done with more than a few kilometers to move it to a distance of half a km for direct fire. yes
        Or lonely squares at knocks stably kept a kilometer of the front just like that? am
  3. stalki
    stalki 29 November 2020 20: 27
    +3
    Another plot for a real movie. But who can remove this now?
    1. Megatron
      Megatron 29 November 2020 22: 24
      -1
      Look at Podolsk Cadets, there was also an article about this film.
      1. stalki
        stalki 29 November 2020 23: 24
        +3
        I'm looking right now hi
    2. Boris ⁣ Shaver
      Boris ⁣ Shaver 30 November 2020 01: 18
      +2
      Quote: stalki
      Another plot for a real movie. But who can remove this now?

      You shouldn't be like that. There are those who can. But in the current order of things, these people do not have to wait for the corresponding budgets. And their talents are wasted. The sphere of "art" has long been turned into a banal feeding trough for a strictly defined circle of "personalities". And to their own (and in fact, filled from our pockets), they will not allow anyone. Or do you think that the land, which at all times gave birth to a lot of really talented people, suddenly took on and at once became impoverished for them?
      1. stalki
        stalki 30 November 2020 09: 41
        +3
        No, I don't think so, I agree about the feeder. But I want to add that at this moment in time, talents are not simply unable to express themselves, they are not allowed to grow. The level of education has dropped, the level of culture has slipped in most regions to the lower limits, not talents are spinning at the trough, but some kind of misdirected ones (judging by what is being filmed and how, these are the enemies of the country).
      2. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 30 November 2020 14: 11
        +1
        Quote: Boris ⁣Razor
        The sphere of "art" has long been turned into a banal feeding trough for a strictly defined circle of "personalities".

        So the sphere of art has always been a feeding trough - unmercenaries simply do not survive, creators also want to eat. smile
        The problem is that behind the hill the same cinema feeds from the rental. And we have - from the budget for the film. Therefore, the result is not important to our masters: the main thing is to knock out money from the Ministry of Culture and master it. And if the state is interested in the fate of money - raise the universal high about censorship, violence against a creative person, persecution for political reasons, etc.
  4. Constanty
    Constanty 29 November 2020 20: 35
    +3
    Read (with understanding!) Guderian and Halder - then you will understand that when they wrote about the T-34 near Mtsensk, they really wrote about KW - tomorrow I will find the necessary fragment at work.

    By the way, it's even funny - if you don't like it, the memories and statements of the Germans are nonsense, when they coincide with the thesis, they are the greatest authority
    1. SARANCHA1976
      SARANCHA1976 29 November 2020 23: 23
      +1
      Really funny .. when from the state. the frontiers subordinate to the fast Heinz faced T34 and KV no problems were observed. As problems, miracle tanks immediately begin to interfere
      1. Revolver
        Revolver 30 November 2020 04: 48
        +1
        Quote: SARANCHA1976
        As problems, miracle tanks immediately begin to interfere

        A bad Faberge dancer gets in the way.
  5. rocket757
    rocket757 29 November 2020 20: 43
    +3
    Courage, of course, takes the city ... but in a harmonious combination of good preparation and thoughtful tactics.
    Even the best technique is not a guarantee of victory, but a threshold, an opportunity !!! And the victory itself depends on many components and this is a fact.
  6. kytx
    kytx 29 November 2020 21: 15
    +2
    tin-plate
    even for war
    I don't have such a spirit :(
    1. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 2 December 2020 06: 55
      0
      Quote: kytx
      tin-plate
      even for war
      I don't have such a spirit :(

      many went to the front with such thoughts, returned with a "hero." Do not underestimate yourself.
  7. tank64rus
    tank64rus 29 November 2020 21: 19
    +6
    This is a feat, just don’t let modern Russian businessmen from the cinematographer make films about him. Such things are filmed that then people will be shocked. I don’t know, only because of their incompetence and unprofessionalism or the fulfillment of orders of the liberal pseudo-elite.
    1. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 2 December 2020 06: 56
      0
      Quote: tank64rus
      This is a feat, just don’t let modern Russian businessmen from the cinematographer make films about him.

      and Petrov with Kozlovsky is not necessary! stop
  8. aleks neym_2
    aleks neym_2 29 November 2020 21: 52
    +2
    In skillful hands, a "mosinka" without optics will become a sniper, but a fool's Kalash will become a club!
    1. Aerodrome
      Aerodrome 2 December 2020 06: 57
      +1
      Quote: aleks neym_2
      In skillful hands, a "mosinka" without optics will become a sniper, but a fool's Kalash will become a club!

      Siberian and northern "fishermen" often worked like that. they beat him in the eye.
  9. Konnick
    Konnick 30 November 2020 01: 39
    +2
    Quote: SARANCHA1976
    Really funny .. when from the state. the frontiers subordinate to the fast Heinz faced T34 and KV no problems were observed. As problems, miracle tanks immediately begin to interfere

    The tactics have changed, Guderian wrote about it directly.
    1. SARANCHA1976
      SARANCHA1976 30 November 2020 07: 18
      -1
      Can you give me a proof?
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 30 November 2020 11: 36
        +2
        “Especially disappointing were the reports we received about the actions of Russian tanks, and most importantly, about their new tactics. Our anti-tank weapons of that time could successfully operate against T-34 tanks only under particularly favorable conditions. For example, our T-IV tank with its short-barreled 75 -mm cannon had the ability to destroy the T-34 tank only from the rear side, hitting its engine through the blinds. This required great skill. The Russian infantry advanced from the front, and the tanks inflicted massive attacks on our flanks .. "-" Memories of a soldier "Guderian ...
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 30 November 2020 13: 59
          +3
          Quote: Konnick
          Especially disappointing were the reports we received about the actions of Russian tanks, and most importantly, about their new tactics. Our anti-tank weapons of that time could successfully operate against T-34 tanks only under particularly favorable conditions. For example, our T-IV tank with its short-barreled 75-mm cannon was able to destroy the T-34 tank only from the rear side, hitting its engine through the blinds.

          Heinz's cool substitution of concepts: first talk about anti-tank weapons, and then jump to the CS tank, which in 1941 was the four (and tactfully omit the "three", sharpened for fighting tanks). Apparently, in the expectation that the reader knows only the "four" as it was in 1944-1945 - the main tank of the Panzerwaffe.
          And most importantly - not a word about the true anti-tank weapons of that time. These were anti-tank guns.
          50-mm anti-tank gun PaK.38, ordinary armor-piercing:
          The 75-mm sheet normal showed the back strength limit of 700 m, the through penetration limit of 400 m. That is, starting from a distance of 700 m and closer PaK.38 can penetrate unshielded HF armor, with 400 m it is guaranteed to break through.
          The 45-mm sheet along the normal showed the through penetration limit of 1500 m, at an angle of 30 degrees to the normal 1300 m.
          That is, PaK.38 confidently hits the T-34 in the side and the tower at any real combat distance.
          © Results of tests of domestically produced tank armor with captured shells in service with German artillery (Gorokhovets test range from October 9 to November 4, 1942).
          1. Evil Booth
            Evil Booth 27 December 2020 15: 38
            -1
            t34 60 hail and not 38 brilliant success of the CIA on the substitution of concepts. 45 under 60 is 90 runoff pack weighing ok, but you still need to carry it in a crowd and 45 cap is more mobile. and so the square stands and defends itself, and you roll onto another pak38 there is armor from the pak ogogo. the Frenchman has 30 degrees of armor. paks the equivalent of 60 s half a kilometer, the equivalent of t34 is still 90)) you count the angle as 82 instead of 8 for Arbrams, right? fellow success with new Iranian bombs.
        2. SARANCHA1976
          SARANCHA1976 2 December 2020 22: 52
          +1
          This is a memoir i.e. personal memories
  10. Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 30 November 2020 10: 26
    +5
    In the battles of the autumn of 1941 near Orel, the Katukovites participated - the tankmen of Mikhail Katukov, who not only first met with the 4th Panzer Division of Heinz (Heinz) Guderian, but also inflicted significant damage on it in the Mtsensk area. Guderian, subsequently Commenting on those events, he noted that this was the first time that German tankers realized the obvious advantage of the T-34 tanks.

    Keyword - subsequently... That is, when it was necessary to somehow justify the delay of their forces in the Mtsensk direction.
    And directly during the events described, Heinz had a completely different opinion about the T-34:
    ... the Soviet T-34 tank is a typical example of backward Bolshevik technology. This tank cannot be compared with the best examples of our tanks, made by the faithful sons of the Reich and have repeatedly proved their superiority ...
    © letter from Heinz Guderian, read and recorded in the minutes of the meeting of the leadership of tank forces at Hitler's headquarters on October 21, 1941.
    1. DrEng527
      DrEng527 30 November 2020 13: 32
      +3
      Quote: Alexey RA
      at Hitler's headquarters

      this is key - telling the boss the truth is not so easy and dangerous ... request
    2. Konnick
      Konnick 30 November 2020 16: 26
      +2
      Lavrinenko and Burda fought in the Katukov brigade, they then changed the tactics of the battle, they operated from ambushes, and also used the terrain and false positions.