Why in the summer of 1942 did we roll back to Stalingrad so quickly?

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The 1942 military campaign of the year for the Soviet command turned out to be no less catastrophic than the setbacks in 1941. After a successful Soviet counter-offensive in the winter of 1941/42 near Moscow, German troops were driven back to the Rzhev area, but the threat to Moscow still remained. Attempts of the Soviet offensive in other sectors of the front had partial success and did not lead to the defeat of the German armies.

Spring failure of Soviet counterattacks


In order to weaken the efforts and divert the funds of the Germans during a possible offensive against Moscow in the spring of 1942, three offensive operations were planned: on the Kerch Peninsula in the Crimea, near Kharkov and near Leningrad. All of them ended in complete failure and defeat of the Soviet armies. Operations in the Crimea and near Kharkov were tied in time and were supposed to weaken the forces of the Germans on the South-Western and Southern Fronts and contribute to the release of Sevastopol.



The operation near Kharkov was being prepared on the initiative of front commander Timoshenko, and the Germans knew about its preparation. The German command, in turn, planned Operation Blau to seize the oil fields of the Caucasus and the Caspian Sea, and in support of this operation set the task of eliminating the Soviet Barvenkovsky ledge with converging strikes from Slavyansk and Balakleya (Operation Fridericus). From this ledge, Timoshenko planned to take Kharkov in ticks and seize it. As a result, in March-April 1942, a race was underway in the Kharkov region to prepare offensive operations directed against each other.

Tymoshenko launched the offensive first on May 12, but the 1st tank Kleist's army struck a cleaving blow on May 17, and by May 23 the entire Soviet group was in the "Barvenkovo ​​cauldron."

Irrecoverable losses of the Soviet army amounted to about 300 thousand people, there were also serious losses in weapons - 5060 guns and mortars and 775 tanks. According to German data, 229 thousand people were taken prisoner, only 27 thousand people were able to get out of the encirclement.

In the Crimea, the Germans, on the contrary, were the first to go over to the offensive on May 8, which was a complete surprise for the front command, and the Soviet troops were defeated within a week and pressed against Kerch, which fell on May 15. The remnants of Soviet troops ceased resistance by May 18. The total losses of Soviet troops on the Kerch Peninsula amounted to about 180 thousand people killed and captured, as well as 1133 guns and 258 tanks. About 120 thousand servicemen were evacuated to the Taman Peninsula.

After the defeat on the Kerch Peninsula, the fate of Sevastopol was a foregone conclusion, and after 250 days of heroic defense, it fell on July 2. As a result of the evacuation of only the senior command staff, according to archival data, 79 thousand soldiers were thrown in Sevastopol, many of whom were captured.

Unsuccessful Soviet operations in the south led to the loss of more than half a million personnel, a significant number of heavy equipment and a serious weakening of the Southwestern and Southern fronts, which made it easier for the German command to carry out the pre-planned Blau operation for a strategic offensive on the oil fields of the Caucasus and created the preconditions for the exit to Stalingrad and the Volga.

Near Leningrad, the Lyuban operation to unblock the city, which began in January, also ended in failure, the 2nd Shock Army under the command of General Vlasov fell into the "boiler". Attempts to escape were unsuccessful, and on June 24 it ceased to exist, irrecoverable losses amounted to more than 40 thousand fighters.

Miscalculations of the Soviet command


The Soviet command believed that the German offensive in 1942 would be on Moscow, and concentrated the main forces in this direction. In addition, the Germans successfully carried out Operation Kremlin on misinformation about the preparation of an offensive on Moscow and a false transfer of their reserves to this direction. The German groupings were seriously reinforced with fresh motorized and tank divisions, new 75mm anti-tank guns, and T-3 and T-4 tanks with long-barreled guns.

No conclusions were drawn from the information obtained in a German plane shot down on June 19 over Soviet positions, in which there was a German staff officer with documents on one of the stages of Operation Blau. The Soviet command assumed that the offensive on Voronezh was preparation for an offensive on Moscow, since from Voronezh it was possible to advance north in the direction of Moscow and south in the direction of Rostov and Stalingrad.

Why in the summer of 1942 did we roll back to Stalingrad so quickly?

Hitler made the decision to attack not Moscow, but rushed to the south and the Caucasus, and this had its own logic. The German army did not have enough fuel and needed Caucasian oil, since Germany's own oil reserves were practically depleted, and its ally Romania did not have enough of it to supply the multimillion-strong German army.

Operation Blau


Operation Blau was multi-stage and envisaged an offensive in a wide sector of the front from Taganrog through Rostov and Kharkov to Kursk. Provided for the defeat and destruction of the Soviet armies of three fronts: Bryansk, Southwestern and Southern. The delay of the German troops in the Crimea and near Kharkov only shifted the start of the operation by several weeks.

To solve the tasks of the operation, two army groups were formed: the southern army group "A" under the command of General Field Marshal List, which included the 17th field and 1st tank armies, and the northern army group "B" under the command of General Field Marshal von Boca as part of the 4th tank, 2nd and 6th field armies. The operation also involved the 8th Italian, 4th Romanian and 2nd Hungarian armies.

Powerful tank wedges were supposed to break through and liquidate the Bryansk front, encircling and destroying enemy forces, then capturing Voronezh and turning all mobile forces south along the right bank of the Don River to the rear of the troops of the Southwestern and Southern Fronts in order to encircle the Soviet troops in a large bend of the Don with further development of success in the direction of Stalingrad and the Caucasus, covering the left flank of German troops along the Don River. The capture of the city was not envisaged: it was necessary to approach it at a distance of effective artillery fire in order to exclude it as a transport hub and center for the production of ammunition and weapons. At the final stage, the capture of Rostov-on-Don and the advancement of mobile connections to the oil fields of Maikop, Grozny and Baku.

Hitler also signed on July 1 Directive No. 43, which ordered the seizure of Anapa and Novorossiysk by amphibious assault and further along the Black Sea coast to reach Tuapse, and along the northern slopes of the Caucasus Mountains to the Maikop oil fields.

The beginning of the German offensive


The German offensive began on June 28, the 4th Panzer and 2nd German armies entered the operational space from the Kursk region. They broke through the front, and at the junction of the Bryansk and Southwestern fronts, a gap formed about 200 km along the front and 150 km in depth, through which German tanks occupied the entire Kursk region and rushed to Voronezh.

The Soviet command took this as the beginning of an offensive on Moscow through Voronezh and sent two tank corps to meet. Between Kursk and Voronezh near the Gorodishche, Soviet tank formations were met with powerful anti-tank artillery fire, and were attacked from the flanks and rear by German tanks. After this battle, the tank corps ceased to exist, and the road to Voronezh was opened.

The 30th Army of Paulus went on the offensive on June 6, south of Voronezh, which was supported on the left flank by the 2nd Hungarian Army, and on the right flank by the 1st Panzer Army. Paulus's army quickly reached Ostrogozhsk and threatened the rear of the Southwestern and Southern fronts.

By July 3, German tankers broke into Voronezh, seized the Don crossings and crossed it. By July 6, the right bank of Voronezh was captured by the Germans, and stubborn battles for the city began. The Germans failed to capture the entire city. Hitler decided that the 2nd Army would take him anyway, and on July 9 he sent 4th Panzer Army south to encircle the Soviet armies in the Don bend. The forces to capture Voronezh were not enough, and the 2nd Army and part of the 2nd Hungarian Army were shackled for a long time in the Voronezh region and could not move south.

In early July, a gap of several tens of kilometers formed between the flanks of the Southwestern and Southern fronts, which there was no one to close. The German command threw mobile units here and made efforts to encircle and destroy the main forces of the South-Western Front, preventing them from retreating to the east. For these purposes, from the north from Voronezh, Army Group B was advancing with the forces of the 4th Panzer and 6th Armies, and from the south from the Slavyansk region, Army Group A was advancing by the forces of the 1st Panzer Army with a general direction to Millerovo.


The headquarters ordered on July 6 to withdraw the troops of the Southwestern Front and gain a foothold on the Novaya Kalitva - Chuprinin line, but the front's troops were unable to avoid being hit by tank wedges. The troops that went over to the defensive on the southern bank of the Black Kalitva River could not withstand the blow and were simply swept away. The defense of the Southwestern Front collapsed, and the German troops, meeting no resistance, marched eastward across the steppe.

In connection with the complication of the situation on July 7, the Voronezh Front was created and strengthened, the troops of the South-Western Front received permission to retreat from the Donets to the Don in order to avoid encirclement. From the remnants of the Southwestern Front on July 12, the Stalingrad Front was created and reinforced by three reserve armies - the 62nd, 63rd and 64th, and Stalingrad was transferred to martial law. If the Germans had crossed the Volga, the country would have been cut, would have lost the Caucasian oil, and a threat would have hung over Lend-Lease supplies through Persia.

In order to end the panic at the front, on July 8, Stalin issued the well-known Order No. 227 entitled "Not a Step Back." For each army, special detachments were created to exclude retreat without an order.

"Boiler" near Millerovo


Tankers of Paulus's army crossed the Chornaya Kalitva River on July 7 and reached the Kantemirovka area by the end of July 11, and the advanced formations of the 4th Panzer Army, moving along the Don, entered the Rossosh area. Near the Vodyanoy farm, groupings of armies A and B moving towards each other merged, closing on July 15 the encirclement ring in the Millerovo area around the three armies of the Southwestern Front. The distance between the outer and inner rings was insignificant, and this allowed part of the troops to break out of the encirclement without heavy weapons.

The encirclement turned out to be about 40 thousand, and the front lost almost all the heavy weapons that it managed to withdraw from Kharkov. The Soviet front in the southern direction actually collapsed, and there was a real threat of the Germans breaking through to Stalingrad, the Volga and the Caucasian oil. For the defeat in the bend of the Don, Stalin dismissed Timoshenko, and General Gordov was appointed commander of the Stalingrad front. In this catastrophic situation, the Stavka ordered the commander of the Southern Front, Malinovsky, to withdraw the troops beyond the Don in its lower reaches.

Throw south to Rostov-on-Don


After success at Voronezh and in the bend of the Don, Hitler decides to encircle and destroy the forces of the Southern Front in the lower reaches of the Don, for which he orders the 4th Panzer Army and the 40th Panzer Corps to stop the advance on Stalingrad and move south to join the 1st Panzer army advancing on Rostov-on-Don, and Paulus's 6th Army was to continue the offensive to the Volga. The Germans increased the pace of the offensive, without encountering serious resistance in the steppe area, individual strongholds, pillboxes and tanks dug into the ground quickly bypassed and then destroyed, the remnants of scattered Soviet units withdrew to the east.


By July 18, 40th Panzer Corps, having covered at least two hundred kilometers in three days, reached the lower reaches of the Don and captured the important railway junction Morozovsk. Over the gates of the Caucasus - Rostov-on-Don, the threat of a fall loomed: the 17th army was advancing from the south, the 1st tank army from the north, and the 4th tank army was preparing to cross the Don and enter the city from the east. Tank formations reached the bridges across the Don on 23 July, and on that day the city fell.

Hike to the Caucasus and a breakthrough to the Volga


With the fall of Rostov-on-Don, Hitler considered that the Red Army was on the verge of final defeat and issued Directive No. 45, which posed more ambitious tasks for the army. So, the 6th Army was supposed to capture Stalingrad, and after taking it, send all motorized units to the south and develop an offensive along the Volga to Astrakhan and further, up to the Caspian Sea. The 1st and 4th Panzer Armies were to move to the oil fields of Maikop and Grozny, and the 17th Army was to occupy the eastern coast of the Black Sea and capture Batumi.

At the same time, Manstein's 11th Army, which captured the Crimea, was sent to the Leningrad region, and the SS Panzer Divisions "Leibstandart" and "Great Germany" were sent to France. Instead of the departed formations on the flanks of the Stalingrad Front, the Hungarian, Italian and Romanian armies were introduced.

Stalingrad was to be attacked by Paulus's 6th Army from the Don bend and one of the tank corps of the 4th Panzer Army, which Hitler deployed and sent back north to speed up the operation to capture the city.

At dawn on August 21, infantry units in the Don bend crossed the river on assault boats, captured a bridgehead on the eastern bank, built pontoon bridges, and a day later the 16th Panzer Division moved along them to Stalingrad, which was only 65 km away. By the end of the day on August 23, the forward tank battalion, on the way of which there were only heroically dead female anti-aircraft gunners, having overcome the distance from the Don to the Volga in one day, reached the right bank of the Volga north of Stalingrad, cutting off all communications. Subsequently, to supply the besieged Stalingrad, it was necessary to build a rockade railway along the left bank of the Volga. At the same time, German soldiers of one of the mountain rifle units hoisted the Nazi banner on Elbrus, the highest peak of the Caucasus.

On a sunny and cloudless Sunday, August 23, according to vacationers of Stalingrad, German aviation inflicted the most massive raid on the Eastern Front with carpet bombing of the city. It was turned into a real hell and almost completely destroyed, out of 600 thousand civilians and refugees, about 40 thousand people died. From this moment began the heroic defense of the besieged Stalingrad for many months, which ended in the disaster of the Germans on the Volga.

German troops were at the limit of their strength and capabilities, as they faced strong and unexpected resistance from Soviet troops, who did not flee in panic in front of a superior enemy, but fought to death, holding him back. Hitler demanded to attack the Caucasus and the Caspian Sea, for which the German army already had no strength. The communications over hundreds of kilometers, and the organizational and ideological weakness of the Romanian, Italian and Hungarian troops covering the German rear and flanks, well known to the German and Soviet commanders, made an adventurous operation to seize Stalingrad and the Caucasus.

The Red Army, having clashed on a number of sectors of the front with the Italian, Romanian and Hungarian allies of the Germans, threw them back and seized a number of bridgeheads that played a decisive role in the Soviet counteroffensive. The high command of the Red Army was gradually recovering from the shock of the catastrophic defeats of the spring and summer of 1942 and was preparing to inflict a crushing blow on the Germans at Stalingrad.
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  1. +16
    30 November 2020 05: 52
    The operation near Kharkov was being prepared on the initiative of front commander Timoshenko, and the Germans knew about its preparation.
    Yeah, and the General Staff and Headquarters, they so ... passed by ... Well, what a fairy tale
    1. +22
      30 November 2020 06: 04
      To understand ... in what position our encircled units found themselves ... a hopeless situation.
      Either death or captivity.
      1. +37
        30 November 2020 06: 15
        Quote: Lech from Android.
        Either death or captivity.

        This is a photo from Sevastopol, Cape Chersonesos ... A huge tragedy of our army and people. Two years later, the Germans were already choosing in the same way ... Debt, payment is red
        1. +24
          30 November 2020 06: 27
          This is a photo from Sevastopol, Cape Chersonesos ...

          But ... hi ... this tragedy is usually not widely covered in our press ... there is too much blood, suffering and grief of hundreds of thousands of people ... when I began to delve into this ... I could not read it all without a shudder ... go through this Hell and very few people were lucky to stay alive.
          1. +18
            30 November 2020 11: 01
            Quote: Lech from Android.
            there is too much blood, suffering and grief of hundreds of thousands of people

            and the most vile deception !!!
      2. +15
        30 November 2020 17: 55
        Hi Aleksey. hi Since the second half of the seventies, we have been working with archeologists in Sevastopol for several years. The 35th battery on Cape Chersonesos was crawled all over from above, and underground, and under water. There was no memorial complex there yet. This is a terrible place for defense from land, it is almost impossible to evacuate from there, not even every boat will be able to approach the shore. Another terrible tragedy of the last war.
        PS There, below, there were many traces of the stay of both ours and the Germans. All ladders were cut down, descended on diving "signals" that they could lift and handed over to the museum.
    2. +5
      30 November 2020 10: 08
      Quote: svp67
      Yeah, and the General Staff and Headquarters, they so ... passed by ... Well, what a fairy tale

      They did not pass by, but they gave the initiative to the places. Or do you think that Comrade Stalin personally commanded everything and everyone, up to battalions and companies? Regarding the battlefield itself, one of the reasons for the defeat was the transfer of dive bombers freed from under the Crimea, who began to methodically knock out artillery and smash the rear. Another unpleasant factor was the use by the Germans of new guns with long-barreled guns, which were able to knock out our tanks.
      1. +15
        30 November 2020 10: 30
        Quote: tomket
        They did not pass by, but they gave the initiative to the places.

        This is called guiding the operation.
        Quote: tomket
        Or do you think that Comrade Stalin personally commanded everything and everything up to battalions and companies?

        Do you think that Marshal Tymoshenko did it? Everyone has their own responsibilities in war
        Quote: tomket
        then one of the reasons for the defeat was the transfer of dive bombers freed from under the Crimea, who began to methodically knock out artillery and smash the rear.

        There were many reasons, in particular, not the ability to counteract the same dive bombers, still operate with such a universal "instrument of war", a tank army, poorly covered flanks, disgustingly established communications, etc., and so on.
      2. +8
        30 November 2020 21: 44
        After the end of the Second World War, a committee was formed to investigate the circumstances of such a defeat in the war of the Red Army. Why did the generals and commanders of divisions and regiments not report on their positions, defeats and gave the Germans the opportunity to deeply enter the land of the country. Stalin's death made it possible for many to escape from questions to which they did not have adequate answers. Then they blamed everything on Stalin, as the Germans blamed on Hitler.
        1. -7
          1 December 2020 08: 00
          Quote: zenion
          Then they blamed everything on Stalin, as the Germans blamed on Hitler.

          Not really, the Germans blame not only Hitler but also his parties and organizations, including their leaders, etc.
          The Germans fully admitted their guilt.
        2. -9
          1 December 2020 08: 11
          Stalin's death made it possible

          A deliberately useless measure, because Stalin must be the first to blame ... that the USSR did not attack first!
          1. +2
            1 December 2020 19: 43
            For those who like minus I recommend reading "Considerations on deployment ..." by Shaposhnikov, Meretskov, Zhukov - what are the fronts doing after M + 30?
    3. +13
      30 November 2020 10: 49
      Quote: svp67
      Yeah, and the General Staff and Headquarters, they so ... passed by ... Well, what a fairy tale

      As a result, instead of an offensive aimed at shaking the entire front of Army Group South, it was decided to limit itself to a more modest operation. Its task was to liberate the city of Kharkov by the forces of the Southwestern Front by strikes in converging directions south and north of the city, with the prospect of reaching the Dnieper. The revised plan was reported by S.K. Timoshenko and N.S. Khrushchev to the Supreme Commander-in-Chief and Chief of the General Staff on Monday, March 30, 1942. According to the memoirs of A.M. Vasilevsky, B.M. Shaposhnikov opposed the operation, motivating his position by riskiness attacks from the operational bag of the Barvenkovsky ledge. As a result, J.V. Stalin personally gave permission to hold it. At the same time, Stalin ordered the General Staff "to consider the operation as an internal matter of the direction and not to interfere in any issues on it."
      © Isaev
      1. +3
        30 November 2020 11: 00
        Quote: Alexey RA
        As a result, JV Stalin personally gave permission to hold it. At the same time, Stalin ordered the General Staff "to consider the operation as an internal matter of the direction and not to interfere in any issues on it."

        Well, all this does not mean that it was a "personal initiative" of Tymoshenko, it means that permission for the operation was given, but the General Staff did not interfere with the leadership of her.
        1. +6
          30 November 2020 13: 51
          Quote: svp67
          Well, all this does not mean that it was a "personal initiative" of Tymoshenko

          The planning of the operation is the work of the SWN. Moscow has only approved it.
          In early March, the Supreme Command Headquarters demanded that the Military Council of the Southwest Direction submit a report on the operational-strategic situation and considerations on possible troop actions in the upcoming summer campaign.

          With regard to their own plans, the command of the South-Western direction showed consistency and proposed a plan, in general terms, representing the development of the Barvenkovo-Lozovskaya operation. As before, the main efforts were aimed at the liberation of Donbass and Kharkov. The bridgehead for the offensive was to be the Barvenkovsky ledge driven into the location of the German troops, occupying an overhanging position both over Kharkov and over the entire Donbass enemy grouping.
          © Isaev
          1. +2
            30 November 2020 15: 04
            Quote: Alexey RA
            The planning of the operation is the work of the SWN.

            Troops of the Bryansk, Southwestern and Southern fronts took part in this operation. The Southwestern Front had four combined arms armies (6th, 21st, 28th, and 38th) and 5 tank corps, 3 of which had not yet participated in battles, as well as 13 separate tank brigades. The Bryansk Front included five combined-arms armies - the 3rd, 13th, 48th, 40th and 61st (a total of 29 rifle, 7 cavalry divisions (6 KK (26 CD, 28 CD, 49 CD, 106 CD) , 5KK (60 cd, 34 cd, 30 cd)), 11 rifle brigades); 2 tank corps and 9 separate tank brigades. At the time of the beginning of the May offensive, the forces of the Red Army in the Kharkov sector amounted to 640 thousand soldiers and officers and 1200 tanks [6].

            The leadership from the Soviet side was carried out by: the commander of the troops of the Southwestern direction and at the same time the commander of the Southwestern Front Marshal of the Soviet Union SK Timoshenko, the commander of the Bryansk Front Lieutenant General F.I. Golikov and the commander of the Southern Front, Lieutenant General R. Ya. Malinovsky.
        2. -11
          30 November 2020 21: 47
          Only Khrushchev could have come up with this. Stalin did not see Kharkov on the globe, someone forgot to write this city there, and Stalin thought that Kharkov was not far from Berlin.
    4. +2
      30 November 2020 10: 59
      Quote: svp67
      they so ... passed by

      The initiative was precisely Tymoshenko ... so to speak, an attempt at rehabilitation in 41 years ..
      1. +11
        30 November 2020 13: 04
        Quote: Serg65
        The initiative was precisely Tymoshenko ...

        Not a single front commander, without the permission of the Headquarters and the General Staff, had the right to conduct such operations. Yes, the General Staff and Headquarters heard the front commanders with their proposals, the upcoming operations were sorted out, adjustments were made to them, reserves and resources were allocated to the front for its implementation.
        An attempt to pass off this operation as Tymoshenko's "initiative" is an attempt to simply shift all responsibility onto him.
        1. +7
          30 November 2020 14: 13
          Quote: svp67
          Not a single front commander, without the permission of the Stavka and the General Staff, had the right to conduct such operations

          Namesake, somewhere I mentioned that Tymoshenko himself took and threw troops into the offensive? I only said that the very idea of ​​this operation before the Headquarters was expressed by Timoshenko and the headquarters of the South-Western Front made the initial plan of the operation and submitted it to the Headquarters for consideration.
          Quote: svp67
          An attempt to pass off this operation as Tymoshenko's "initiative" is an attempt to simply shift all responsibility onto him.

          Hmm .. buddy, there are a lot of guilty ones here ... this is the Headquarters headed by comrade Stalin, and the best general staff officer of all times and peoples, comrade Shaposhnikov, and the chief intelligence officer Ilyichev, and Malinovsky, who fought by himself, and of course Timoshenko !
          1. -7
            30 November 2020 21: 53
            You're right. Each front commander and even a division commander fought on his own, when the thought came to him at night - to smash the Germans to pieces and in a week to capture Berlin up to the English Channel. Each had a globe and it was clear there that the English Channel was a suburb of Berlin. Moreover, all had different globes. Some had literally everything except the USSR, it was secret, others had only the USSR globe and nothing else. Just like Ukraine now has its own globe. And the border of Belarus has access to all oceans and seas.
            1. +2
              1 December 2020 10: 19
              Quote: zenion
              You're right. Each front commander and even a division commander fought on his own, when the thought came to him at night - to smash the Germans to pieces and in a week to capture Berlin up to the English Channel.

              He-he-he ... the funniest thing is that you just described the situation in 1941 - when the commander of the front or even the army could put the M120x200 to carry out the order of the General Staff, believing that he knew better on the spot. smile
        2. -2
          3 December 2020 02: 36
          Another boob. Tymoshenko was part of the Headquarters. Learn history, then comment.
    5. +9
      30 November 2020 13: 45
      Yes, the skill came with bitter experience ...
    6. Zug
      +2
      30 November 2020 19: 49
      The idea was just Timoshenko and Stalin even said not to interfere with his preparations for the offensive.
      1. -6
        1 December 2020 08: 02
        Quote: Zug
        The idea was just Timoshenko and Stalin even said not to interfere with his preparations for the offensive.

        And then there was Rzhev, where Stalin also "did not interfere."
    7. -5
      1 December 2020 07: 57
      Quote: svp67
      Yeah, and the General Staff and Headquarters, they so ... passed by ... Well, what a fairy tale

      Defeats are on individual commanders, and Stalin's victories.
    8. -1
      3 December 2020 02: 32
      And nothing that Tymoshenko was at first the chairman of the Supreme Headquarters and then until the end of the war was part of it? One boob will blurt out, others will.
  2. +12
    30 November 2020 07: 26
    We must not forget that Khrushchev played a significant role in this story! It was he who "signaled" to Stalin that everything was fine and that success was guaranteed, and then transferred all the arrows to the command.
    1. +11
      30 November 2020 09: 09
      Victory has a thousand fathers, and defeat is always an orphan.
      Again Khrushchev was to blame, while the others stood on the sidelines.
      1. +3
        30 November 2020 09: 38
        Quote: mr.ZinGer
        Again Khrushchev was to blame, while the others stood on the sidelines.

        We didn't, but if you go over the topic, you can scrape together information on how exactly Khrushchev begged Abakumov, who received information from the head of the Special Department of the South-Western Front, Colonel V. Rukhle, that the Wehrmacht command was transferring additional tank divisions to the South-Western direction against the South-Western Front. V. Rukhle asked to report his information to Stalin in order to prevent the already planned counteroffensive, directly indicating that the result of this would be a catastrophic defeat of the front, do not report this to Stalin!
        1. +13
          30 November 2020 11: 03
          Quote: Vladimir61
          then you can scrape together information on how Khrushchev begged Abakumov, who received information from the head of the Special Department of the South-Western Front Colonel V. Rukhle

          A fairy tale, which can only be believed by a person who has little understanding of the hierarchy of that military and party nomenclature and the meaning of what is happening.
          1. -1
            30 November 2020 21: 35
            Quote: svp67
            A fairy tale, which can only be believed by a person who has little understanding of the hierarchy of that military and party nomenclature and the meaning of what is happening.

            ABOUT! I did not know that a recognized historian of the Second World War was present here. Can you clarify who is recognized and what are your scientific works on this topic? I will read it with pleasure ... not just the memoirs of the marshals, but the books of the series "Notes of a military counterintelligence officer," on behalf of the former military counterintelligence officer "SMERSH", Major General L. G. Ivanov.
          2. +1
            30 November 2020 21: 56
            So, having come to power, Khrushchev after the murder of Beria, ordered to kill Abakumov.
            1. 0
              1 December 2020 11: 46
              Abakumov was arrested under Stalin. And Beria did not intend to release him after Stalin's death.
        2. +1
          30 November 2020 12: 04
          And which of them is to blame, one asked, the other agreed. Dark story.
          1. +5
            30 November 2020 13: 10
            Quote: mr.ZinGer
            And which of them is to blame, one asked, the other agreed. Dark story.

            A member of the Military Council of one of the fronts COULD NOT ask the Deputy People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the USSR for this, and on July 19, 1941, at the same time, the head of the Directorate of Special Departments of the NKVD of the USSR (3rd Directorate of the GUGB NKVD of the USSR), did not come out. And he could not go on such a CRIME, since if it was opened, he would not have blown his head, especially since it was he who monitored our top military and party leadership and carried out DAILY PERSONAL reports to Stalin and he had enough competitors, in the person the same MGB
        3. +3
          30 November 2020 20: 30
          Quote: Vladimir61
          it was Khrushchev who begged Abakumov not to report this to Stalin!

          Funny fantasy. Historical fiction, come on? Interestingly, and what kind of conversation did a member of the Armed Forces have with the Deputy People's Commissar of the Interior?
          1. +4
            30 November 2020 21: 21
            Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
            Funny fantasy. Historical fiction, come on? Interestingly, and what kind of conversation did a member of the Armed Forces have with the Deputy People's Commissar of the Interior?

            Funny ignorance of the question. Khrushchev. not just a member of the Armed Forces, he is a member of the Politburo!
        4. +4
          1 December 2020 11: 48
          Khrushchev's political weight was many times higher than Abakumov's. Khrushchev was one of the few top leaders of the USSR who enjoyed Stalin's trust until the latter's death.
      2. +8
        30 November 2020 10: 10
        Quote: mr.ZinGer
        Again Khrushchev was to blame, while the others stood on the sidelines.

        Khrushchev and Timoshenko, the defeat near Kharkov was sorted out to the comma, if you have forgotten, listen to Isaev's video. Before that, you can also listen to about the seizure of Crimea, so that there would be an idea of ​​the operational situation.
      3. +3
        30 November 2020 13: 00
        Victory has a thousand fathers, and defeat is always an orphan.
        Again Khrushchev was to blame, while the others stood on the sidelines.

        That's for sure, try to write here that the Headquarters did not lead in Stalingrad or in the Berlin operation. laughing
    2. +11
      30 November 2020 11: 02
      Quote: Vladimir61
      in this story, played by Khrushchev!

      Timoshenko lane to Kharkov like a bull on a red rag, ignoring reconnaissance and forgetting about the flanks!
  3. +6
    30 November 2020 08: 17
    So why? The article talks about how the Germans reached the Volga and the Caucasus and nothing about the reasons.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +4
      30 November 2020 10: 15
      Quote: Cartalon
      So why? The article talks about how the Germans reached the Volga and the Caucasus and nothing about the reasons.

      The successes near the Crimea and Leningrad, as well as the pulling together of our forces in the Central direction, allowed the Germans to operate with the liberated forces, such as groups of dive bombers near Kharkov. Technical innovations, the unexpectedness of the chosen direction of attack, and the lack of reserves at us also played a role.
      1. +3
        30 November 2020 22: 46
        You cleverly found the reasons: "technical innovations, the unexpectedness of the chosen direction of attack, our lack of reserves."
        And in my opinion, this is the fault of our command - they simply did not know how to fight, they could not think creatively, they could not adequately respond to the actions of the Germans, they did not really conduct intelligence, they were afraid to take the initiative and waited for orders from the top. And at the top, Stalin also intervened in the management of operations. If not these reasons, then where did the hundreds of thousands of our prisoners come from?
    3. +11
      30 November 2020 13: 08
      So why? The article talks about how the Germans reached the Volga and the Caucasus and nothing about the reasons.

      Reason # 1 - Fedor von Bock.
  4. +11
    30 November 2020 08: 19
    It's a good question why. Because they lost in 2 places at once, after which the situation became such that another mistake could become critical and it was easy to make it. And they did it. Then you can ask the question, why did you lose in 2 places at once? I am afraid that the answer will be rather dull, because in the spring of 42 the Germans evened out the balance of forces, which had shaken by the beginning of winter of 41, which resulted in a German retreat from Moscow, while the Red Army managed to fight the Germans 1 to 1 in 42 still bad.

    Although the losses for the entire 42nd year are equal to the losses for half of the 41st, that is, the Germans knocked out Soviet units much more slowly, and themselves had to suffer much greater losses.
    1. +16
      30 November 2020 11: 15
      Quote: EvilLion
      the answer will be pretty dull,

      What's so dull? The German is still the same as in the 41st, the Red Army is still the same as in the 41st. If not weaker, then certainly not stronger.

      But there is one caveat. In 41st, the Germans cheerfully attacked in 3 directions. In 42 - only one. That is, it seems that the Blitzkrieg machine is working, but something has been going wrong for a long time.

      And it is clear that. From Poland to Blitzkrieg in the West there were six months relatively peacetime. From France to the Second World War - exactly one year. In 42, the battles in the Moscow direction went on until spring, the Germans did not have any strategic pause to "compress the spring" of the Blitzkrieg again (on the scale of the Reich as a whole). They fought, so to speak, from the wheels. They fought well, it's hard to argue here, but there is no Barbarossa and is not close.
      1. +4
        30 November 2020 15: 31
        Quote: Cherry Nine
        The German is still the same as in the 41st, the Red Army is still the same as in the 41st


        No! The German in 1942 is much cooler than in 1941. In 1941 the German fought too greyhound and brazenly. due to the lack of our subunits (combat teams - the maturation period of these is 3-4 months). This determined extremely low durability in battle. And therefore, in violation of all regulations, the Germans managed to drive ours in all directions. And the divisions that appeared with 3-4 months of training. overturned the Wehrmacht near Moscow.

        Quote: Cherry Nine
        The red army is still the same as in the 41st


        Not the same, for a year of battles (1942) we have twice less prisoners than in 1/2 year in 1941. (if in 1941 the formations "fell apart" - and what to take from a group of unfamiliar people, then in 1942 they were already holding on to each other ), and the durability was significantly higher. But the quality of commanders fell (and the higher command has not improved yet) - one of the reasons for the failures of 1942.
        And the second is the loss in 1941 and near Rzhev. and near Leningrad there was always not enough. another army, or even a corps and a couple of hundred tanks. And having preserved that MK organization (changed only in the tank regiment) - they could have inserted the Germans (the stronger ones) already in May, and not in November).
        1. 0
          30 November 2020 15: 36
          Quote: chenia
          overturned the Wehrmacht near Moscow.

          Strongly said. The Wehrmacht stalled and stood up, then rolled back a little. That's more accurate.
          Quote: chenia
          Not the same, for a year of battles (1942) we have half the number of prisoners than in 1/2 year in 1941. (... the quality of commanders has dropped (and the higher command has not improved yet)

          Quote: Cherry Nine
          In 41st, the Germans cheerfully attacked in 3 directions. In 42 - only one.

          I am inclined to believe that the last two quotes are related.
          1. 0
            30 November 2020 16: 17
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            then rolled back a little. That's more accurate.


            You seem to be right, BUT ...
            The Moscow battle was defining (like Kursk). Stalingrad, for example, is too logical (the Germans then grabbed a piece that was not something to digest, but were not able to chew).
            Moreover, the battle of Moscow is more significant than Kursk (everything was already predetermined there, and the Germans were told this).


            Quote: Cherry Nine
            In 41st, the Germans cheerfully attacked in 3 directions. In 42 - only one.


            More precisely, already at the end of autumn 1941 (4 TGs were removed from near Leningrad, and the offensive in the south was suspended (there Kleist, near Rostov crawled into a fire bag).

            They couldn't. The endurance of our troops has changed. You look at the tactics of the Germans in 1941, and you wonder what the impudence is to break through the defenses taken in advance by a battalion along the front 1,2-1,5 km (should be 600 m), with 40 artillery barrels per km. And it rolled. Then there will be enough troops to attack in all directions.
            And then zas! Although it sometimes skated later, it did sometimes.
            1. +1
              30 November 2020 16: 59
              Quote: chenia
              The Moscow battle was decisive (as was the Kursk one). Stalingrad, for example, is too logical (the Germans then grabbed a piece that was not something to digest, but were not able to chew).

              I have a completely different view of this period. MSC was exactly the "piece that could not be chewed". More specifically, the weakening offensive impulse was counterbalanced by the increasing resistance. Like a sea wave, rolling up the sand, at some point it loses its energy and rolls back. But this is not a turning point in the Red Army battle - the Red Army remained immeasurably weaker - but only the limit of the poorly prepared and hanging on the same road of the German offensive.

              As for Stalingrad, it is a combination of accidents. Soviet Midway, so to speak. Blau, unlike Moscow, could turn out, and even confidently turn out, if not for random, in general, circumstances (including the very entry into Stalingrad).

              If we talk about overcoming, then this is Kursk. Here the strength of the Red Army exceeded the strength of the Wehrmacht in a direct battle, perhaps for the first time.
              Quote: chenia
              More precisely, already at the end of autumn 1941.

              The record losses of the Red Army by prisoners, which you are referring to, relate mainly to the summer battles up to Kiev inclusive.
              Quote: chenia
              You look at the tactics of the Germans in 1941, and you wonder what impudence

              You better find out how the Headquarters in late June - early July tried to understand where the Soviet corps and divisions are located and whether they exist at all. In 42, with all the shortcomings, it never came to that.
              1. +2
                30 November 2020 18: 10
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                I have a completely different view of this period. MSC was the "piece that they could not chew".


                They couldn't chew anything! They were incredibly lucky to hit at the moment of "dressing up" the Red Army.
                Strategic surprise (when a number of decisions were made at the beginning of the year, given that there would be no war in 1941, the Germans were not ready (and quite rightly), led to fatal results (ours only at the end of Spring realized that something was being prepared, but there was late).
                That. that they reached Moscow is already excessive.

                Quote: Cherry Nine
                The Red Army remained immeasurably weaker -

                I agree.
                Because of the losses in 1941, we had units in 1942, yes. but the commanding staff (KV, company commanders, and KB) was knocked out. In their place (well, not counting the survivors) came again "baked".
                Agree that when instead of an officer with a 2-year college, and subsequent service in the army. shots come from 9. or even 6 months training, this is not an adequate replacement.
                Well, how many lost equipment.


                Quote: Cherry Nine
                Blau, unlike Moscow, could have succeeded, and even confidently succeeded,


                Well. Yes!
                Already at the end of October, ours could strike the flank of the Germans, but the order was not fussing.
                The Germans, in fact, took Stalingrad, but also!
                And in the south (Army Group "A") it is very difficult to advance in a relatively narrow coastal zone (tanks will not accelerate), and it is very difficult to attack mountainous and wooded areas (Thermopylae). Easier to defend.

                Quote: Cherry Nine
                The record losses of the Red Army by prisoners, which you are referring to, relate mainly to the summer battles up to Kiev inclusive.


                By the way, an interesting point. And do not start the withdrawal of Kirpanos (and he did not want to leave Kiev. And what happened ?.
                The Germans (two TGs) smashed ours in record time on the retreat. And if you stayed in Kiev? Well.?
                From the front of the Kiev UR (: 6 PA has already broken off its teeth), attack from the west a group of 600 thousand (including reservists) when, while advancing in depth, the density of defense does not fall.
                Not the Germans would have coped, definitely (in a month, and then and then two), but what would be left from Kleist and Guderian, and 6 PA jumped on the spot. And on the flanks hangs Bryansk (it is the freed Guderian who will rassherait him, otherwise he would be busy) and the remnants of the South-Western Front.

                Well, where is the attack on Moscow.?
                So. that the Germans were still very lucky with the wrong decisions of the Red Army Command.

                Quote: Cherry Nine
                where are the Soviet corps and divisions and whether they exist at all.


                Well. I've already said why.
              2. +1
                30 November 2020 18: 23
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                The record losses of the Red Army by prisoners, which you are referring to, relate mainly to the summer battles up to Kiev inclusive.

                But what about Bryansk and Vyazma?
                Quote: Cherry Nine
                You better find out how the Headquarters in late June - early July tried to understand where the Soviet corps and divisions are located and whether they exist at all.

                In the fall of 1941, it was also an extravaganza: in the main strategic direction, the front headquarters hid from the front commander, there is no communication with the neighbors, who and where is holding the defense is unknown.
                - Where are you from? - asked S.M.Budyonny.
                - From Konev.
                - Well, how is he doing? For more than two days I have no connection with him. Yesterday I was at the headquarters of the 43rd Army, and the front headquarters withdrew in my absence, and now I do not know where it is staying.
                - I found him in the forest to the left, behind the railway bridge across the Protva River. They are waiting for you there. On the Western Front, unfortunately, things are very bad, most of the forces were surrounded.
                - We are not better, - said SM Budyonny, - the 24th and 32nd armies are cut off. Yesterday I myself almost fell into the clutches of the enemy between Yukhnov and Vyazma. In the direction of Vyazma, large tank and motorized columns marched, apparently to bypass the city from the east.
                - In whose hands is Yukhnov?
                - Now I do not know. On the Ugra River there were up to two infantry regiments, but no artillery. I think that Yukhnov is in the hands of the enemy.
                - Well, who is covering the road from Yukhnov to Maloyaroslavets?
                - When I was driving here, except for three policemen in Medyn, I met no one. The local authorities left Medyn.
                © GKZh
                1. +2
                  30 November 2020 18: 31
                  Well, memoirs are still a source
          2. +2
            30 November 2020 18: 26
            Quote: Cherry Nine
            I am inclined to believe that the last two quotes are related.

            EMNIP, the Germans cleaned up their rear well in the winter of 1941-1942. to make up for losses in active bayonets (and this replenishment dropped out rather quickly - because it did not have combat experience). But the vigorous offensive was held precisely on the rear and supply.
            1. +4
              30 November 2020 18: 34
              Quote: Alexey RA
              But the vigorous offensive was held precisely on the rear and supplies.

              Yes. That is why I emphasize above the absence of a strategic pause as the basic reason for "not working" the blitzkrieg of 42. And, frankly speaking, a pause is needed longer - to build decent roads by Belgian standards from East Prussia to Rzhev, and it was not very successful in 75 years.
              Quote: Alexey RA
              In the fall of 1941, her extravaganza was also

              I do not argue. But it seems to me that if anything improved in the Red Army in the 42nd year relative to the 41st year, it was the lieutenant general level and higher. That is, not that the Archangels Gabriel were drawn, but at least some minimal things were shaken. Even without regard to personalities, it is simply the elimination of the generals' illiteracy through practical experience. It is clear at what cost.
              Quote: Alexey RA
              But what about Bryansk and Vyazma?

              Mainly, I said, to the summer battles.
              1. -1
                1 December 2020 19: 14
                Rather, it is, because "in the area of ​​the Gorodishche, two tank corps were met with powerful fire from anti-tank artillery and flanks and the rear by German tanks ..." Is this what lieutenants are in command of the corps? How can this be?
                In a bag on full alura. It seems that we already had enough in 41m. Where is the mind?
                1. 0
                  2 December 2020 07: 04
                  And justify.
  5. +6
    30 November 2020 10: 21
    The operation near Kharkov was being prepared at the initiative of front commander Timoshenko, and the Germans knew about its preparation
    .. The Germans knew about the Kharkov operation, the Headquarters did not know. It's amazing.
    1. -3
      30 November 2020 20: 20
      I always believed that Khrushchev was an agent of foreign intelligence, first German and then US, as the successor of anti-Sovietism and Russophobia.
      1. -5
        1 December 2020 08: 05
        Quote: Cetron
        Khrushchev was an agent of foreign intelligence, first German and then state,

        Khrushchev was recruited when he was on a visit to the United States? laughing
        1. -2
          1 December 2020 23: 22
          He, as a supporter of the "Bandera" (collectively, because there are many different options), worked for the Germans, and after the defeat of Germany, he inherited the CIA. Like many of his associates.
          1. 0
            2 December 2020 11: 21
            Quote: Cetron
            He, as a supporter of the "Bandera" (collectively, because there are many different options), worked for the Germans, and after the defeat of Germany, he inherited the CIA. Like many of his associates.

            Just stop! Do not be ridiculous and do not disgrace
  6. +4
    30 November 2020 10: 23
    School essay "a la Novy Urengoy"
    German troops were at the limit of their strength and capabilities,

    ideological weakness of the Romanian, Italian and Hungarian troops covering the German rear and flanks

    The tone of the article in the style of these "authors" - https://eadaily.com/ru/news/2020/11/29/vot-eto-chelovek-detskaya-kinostudiya-v-podmoskove-snyala-fashistskiy-rolik
    The declared topic has not been disclosed. Solid 30 points (USE).
  7. +10
    30 November 2020 11: 45
    At the academy, a front-line teacher told me that he began serving just in 42. Retreating units traveled up to 50 km a day, if he erased his legs, fell behind the unit - that's it, he died. He was saved only by the fact that the athlete withstood this crazy race ..
    In general, the most difficult time for the Red Army was 1942. The cadre army has practically been destroyed, there is still no new one.
  8. +7
    30 November 2020 12: 29
    Why in the summer of 1942 did we roll back to Stalingrad so quickly?
    The Soviet command did not understand modern war from words at all.
    1. -2
      30 November 2020 14: 45
      Well, at least, like the French, they did not try to cross out the lines where to retreat, but the troops burned out in counter strikes, but this is better than if they were taken prisoner on the next line.
      1. -1
        30 November 2020 15: 00
        yes the troops burned in counter strikes
        Mediocre counterattacks and criminal orders caused enormous damage and unnecessary human losses.
        1. +4
          30 November 2020 15: 16
          And how was it necessary?
          1. 0
            30 November 2020 18: 53
            It was necessary not to take over the management of the country and the army, if you didn’t know how, except to kill people. That's how it should have been.
            1. +3
              30 November 2020 20: 07
              In short, you don't know.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. +8
                  1 December 2020 06: 13
                  Why did only the Germans learn? But the French, the British, the Americans, the Poles, the Japanese, haven't they learned? They also ruled the Georgians with the Jews?
                  1. -4
                    1 December 2020 08: 07
                    Well, because the Germans had a goal and the ability to achieve it. In general, they are goals and abilities, they are different for everyone - hence the result. The British did not want to fight the French with the French.
                    I just do not understand why it is always necessary to switch the arrows to others? Did others build the most progressive, fairest, most, the state itself? Well, since they built, be responsible for what they built - without the French and the Poles.
                    1. +3
                      1 December 2020 08: 54
                      Because only the Germans created a tool for modern warfare, the USSR did not have the opportunity to create something comparable, the French had the opportunity, and they did not create it, it was not enough brains, and not industrial capacities.
                      1. 0
                        1 December 2020 09: 14
                        Quote: Cartalon
                        Because only the Germans created a tool for modern warfare

                        Right. And they were the only ones who had a reasonable head on their shoulders. But as life has shown, there was not enough reason either.
                        Quote: Cartalon
                        The USSR did not have the opportunity to create something comparable

                        And I mean the same. A Georgian should drive kinzmarauli, not create something comparable.
                        Quote: Cartalon
                        the French had the opportunity, and they did not create it, it was the brains that were lacking, and not the industrial capacity

                        It may very well be.
                        You see, we've come to general conclusions. This is great. hi
                      2. +2
                        1 December 2020 10: 05
                        That is, not a Georgian would create an industry out of a fig?
                      3. +1
                        1 December 2020 10: 12
                        Quote: Cartalon
                        That is, not a Georgian would create an industry out of a fig?

                        Everything is somewhat more complicated - these people destroyed one state, after which they courageously overcame difficulties at someone else's expense, at the same time rubbing others about difficult life circumstances.
                        The thing is that these circumstances are like a hostile cap. environment, lack of personnel, etc. , they themselves created.
                        Therefore, no one except them is to blame.
                  2. -1
                    1 December 2020 10: 39
                    Quote: Cartalon
                    They also ruled the Georgians with the Jews?

                    )))

                    At the expense of the states there was such a concept. "Jewish plutocracy" may have heard.
                    1. +2
                      1 December 2020 20: 46
                      And there was no hostile environment of the capital states? Did the Georgians have difficulties by themselves?
                      And the fact that the state, built on class inequality, was destroyed, is so wonderful. It has rotted away, and the capitalism coming to replace it is no better. What has been proven by modern life in Russia. Even with modern technology, it’s sour, and at the beginning of the 20th century, it’s just a disaster for people.
                      Will your great-grandfather, one of the noblemen who did not accept the Russian revolution, be, or from the gutted merchants, so fiercely attacking the Bolsheviks? The backbone class was eliminated and this is a historical expediency. The desire of people for a just life. This will inevitably happen now.
                      Stalin, until 43, did not direct the army directly, exercising general political leadership, trusting the "professionals". And before the war it was the same. But the equipment, his merit
                      With very modest opportunities, from the devastation of the Civil War, in two five-year plans. A very impressive leap.
                      1. +3
                        1 December 2020 21: 54
                        Quote: Essex62
                        And there was no hostile environment of the capital states?

                        The hostile environment was represented by Finland (the USSR attacked in the 39th year), Estonia (the USSR annexed it in the 40th year) Lithuania (the USSR annexed it in the 40th year), Poland (hmm ...), Romania (the USSR annexed partly in 40th year), Turkey (the USSR made territorial claims in the 45th year), Iran (the USSR attacked in the 41st year), Afghanistan (the USSR attacked in 1929), China (the RSFSR attacked in 1921, parts of the Chinese territories proclaimed two puppet "people's republics", why there are two of them all the time, what the hell), Japan (the USSR attacked in 1945). Everything, the USSR did not have a land border with anyone else.

                        Countries with which the USSR did not have a common border treated it relatively neutrally. From aircraft engines VMV, ASh - American license, VK - French license, AM - German, M-88 - French. Industrialization in the USSR was carried out mainly by the Americans.
                      2. +1
                        2 December 2020 06: 59
                        What the bourgeoisie sold for gold, mind you, technology and people helped us to build a powerful industrial power, again the merit of the Georgian and his entourage
                        Kondovo did not get hung up on the class struggle, at the same time he did not deviate from its general line. And all the ordinary Soviet people built it on enthusiasm and self-denial, and not some kind of p.i.n.d. -. S.s.
                        The USSR created a buffer knowing that they would attack, the fact that with the impudence of the borders did not abolish its filth and desire to devour us. They rushed to us as allies when they realized that the demon-possessed stone would not leave a rotten empire from oh!
                        The bourgeois cannot be neutral towards the country of victorious socialism, its very existence is like a sickle according to Faberge.
                      3. -1
                        2 December 2020 10: 07
                        Quote: Essex62
                        What the bourgeoisie sold for gold, mind you, technology and people helped us to build a powerful industrial power, again the merit of the Georgian and his entourage

                        Rather a crime by the governments of Western countries, but in principle, yes, without Comrade. Stalin did not do it. And the question is what?
                        Quote: Essex62
                        And all ordinary Soviet people built on enthusiasm and self-denial,

                        Ordinary Soviet people, on enthusiasm and self-denial, could build a two-point toilet. A modern plant - no, it needs some more qualifications and industries that are absent in the USSR, such as machine tool construction.
                        Quote: Essex62
                        The impudence of borders did not abolish her filth and desire to devour us.

                        Of a million (okay, out of 20 thousand) tanks, riveted by the USSR in the 30s, half is English Vickers, the other half is American Christie. So I insist on the crime of Western governments.
                        Quote: Essex62
                        They rushed to us as allies when they understood

                        Let me remind the history lovers of mothers that the USSR went over to the side of England about 2 years after the beginning of WWII on the initiative of the German side, which began to get very tired of friendship with the USSR.
                        Quote: Essex62
                        The bourgeois cannot be neutral towards the country of victorious socialism

                        Alas, the bourgeoisie, as a rule, did not care. They are, on average, overly peaceful.
                      4. +1
                        2 December 2020 11: 33
                        You can stuff your reasoning and insistence into the very point you wrote about. The USSR could and did, the USSR won and took off into space. A peaceful bourgeois is strong. This is for a specialist.
                      5. -1
                        2 December 2020 12: 36
                        The USSR destroyed and maimed so much of its population that no space was near. Now, thanks to this, we are importing Tajiks, since there is no one to work.
                      6. +2
                        2 December 2020 12: 50
                        So the red-haired reformer dug in 30 million, "who did not fit into the market" and now they will dig in the same number with the bullying of the retirement age and the cancellation of all social guarantees in fact. Little did they scribble on a piece of paper in Gosdur. Therefore, I laugh with your "bourgeois peacefulness". This is a shark, she always wants to eat and the opinion of food does not interest her. Capitalism is at the level of brutal instincts. Who will win.
                        The Soviet population died in the Second World War for the Motherland or was destroyed, by an inhuman aggressor, during the occupation. Do you seriously think that the leadership of the army received orders from Stalin to destroy the troops in boilers and surrender the territory? People were taught to write and read at an accelerated pace, workers' faculties were created, taught professions. Well, we didn't have time, yes. And they couldn't make it. Well, at least the lag, equal to the abyss, could almost be negligible before the Second World War. This served as the basis for the victory.
                        Losses, and how much did Nikolashka put in PMA? Moreover, there was a percentage of noblemen, more and more a Russian peasant.
                2. 0
                  1 December 2020 08: 18
                  The options were a wagon

                  You are confusing official propaganda and strategy in the alleged war - large losses (as a result, a large army, a lot of weapons, including tanks), retreats, as a result of the evacuation of industry. At the strategy level, everything is 100% correct.
                  Germans in less time

                  In tactics and operational art, in strategy, lost = lost the war.
                  And if we compare the USSR with France and England arr. 1940 ... wink
                  1. 0
                    1 December 2020 09: 11
                    Quote: strannik1985
                    At the strategy level, everything is 100% correct.

                    Well, I'm certainly not Napoleon, like most of the commentators, but I can assume that at the strategy level it was necessary to cover the western border with continuous minefields a hundred kilometers deep, blow up all the bridges on all major rivers of the western edge and prepare for heavy defensive, rear-guard battles ... At the same time, be ready to retreat even for Kamchatka, taking with you all living things and blowing up all non-living things.
                    But for this it is necessary to establish good relations with the West, so that it plant food and other things during this whole process. And for this it was necessary to shove all the portraits, works and ideas of Ilyich in a latrine. And spend money not on the struggle of African blacks, but on the establishment of allied relations with normal countries.
                    And you need to have a state mentality and an intelligent head on your shoulders, and not a dumkopf, like a pack that settled in the Kremlin.
                    Quote: strannik1985
                    And if we compare the USSR with France and England arr. 1940 ..

                    Don't compare. The arrows are translated by stupid and dishonest people. And normal people do what they promised before the war.
                    1. +1
                      1 December 2020 14: 36
                      But for this you need

                      How Western countries want to establish relations with the USSR was perfectly shown by the Munich Agreement and the Moscow negotiations in the summer of 1939 laughing
                      And you need to have a state mindset

                      Of course, about ... all the advantages of the situation in 1941 until the state of spring 1945 - you need to be able to good
                      Don't compare.

                      It is necessary for an objective assessment.
                      1. +1
                        1 December 2020 16: 03
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        How Western countries want to establish relations with the USSR was perfectly shown by the Munich Agreement and the Moscow negotiations in the summer of 1939

                        It seems that I clearly wrote what needs to be done for this
                        for this it was necessary to shove all the portraits, works and ideas of Ilyich in a latrine. And spend money not on the struggle of African blacks, but on the establishment of allied relations with normal countries.

                        It was necessary to become a normal country, and not scumbags who dreamed of strangling the capitalists on their own rope.
                        It's amazing that the people you want to kill don't want to establish a relationship with you. smile
                      2. +1
                        1 December 2020 17: 23
                        And not to spend money to fight black Africans

                        You are confusing periods, something could be done in the foreign policy of the USSR after the war. In the 20s and 30s, the Union behaved differently - non-aggression treaties, mutual military assistance (France, Czechoslovakia).
                        It was the guarantors of Versailles who "did not notice" the termination of reparations payments, the creation of a conscript army; they surrendered the Sudetes, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland to the Germans.
                        The position of the USSR on Czechoslovakia was simply ignored by the "allies".
                      3. +1
                        1 December 2020 19: 17
                        The main instrument of the world revolution was dismissed in general only in 1943. And the financing of all sorts of Communist Parties and Lumumb - until the death of the USSR.
                      4. 0
                        1 December 2020 19: 40
                        Can you tell me how many and in which countries the "instrument of the world revolution" organized revolutions?
                      5. +1
                        1 December 2020 20: 39
                        Yes, no matter how fools, it was no longer found when an unsuccessful example is on the face. What?
                      6. 0
                        1 December 2020 21: 46
                        And why should allies be afraid if a tool is not a tool?
                      7. +1
                        2 December 2020 12: 37
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        And why should allies be afraid if a tool is not a tool?

                        If your apartment has never been robbed, then this is a reason for you never to lock the front door with a key?
                      8. 0
                        2 December 2020 14: 08
                        If some of your neighbors say that they will be robbed, while others have already robbed several apartments - who is more afraid of?
                  2. -2
                    1 December 2020 10: 40
                    Quote: strannik1985
                    And if we compare the USSR with France and England arr. 1940 ...

                    What's wrong with them?
                    1. +1
                      1 December 2020 14: 02
                      What's wrong with them?

                      They performed on land in 1940 no better than the USSR, although they had cadre armies, advanced industry, time and opportunities for mobilization.
                      1. -1
                        1 December 2020 14: 09
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        They performed on land in 1940 no better than the USSR

                        Are you talking about 112 thousand killed and 1,5 million prisoners (who were released a month later)? Losses of the USSR during the Barbarossa period, how many, 5 million total? And on the territory if you count in France?
                      2. +1
                        1 December 2020 14: 30
                        And on the territory if you count in France?

                        And that too. And also the fact that the USSR had no potential allies in the war with Germany, a common border until 1939, did not have only 8 months of "Strange War" officially for mobilization and deployment.
                        Distance without troops is not a hindrance.
                      3. 0
                        1 December 2020 14: 45
                        Quote: strannik1985
                        did not have only officially to mobilize and deploy 8 months of "Strange War".
                        Distance without troops is not a hindrance.

                        What? The USSR has been continuously fighting (fronts deployed) since September 39, so and so. Maybe there were periods without deployed fronts, too lazy to watch, but maybe a couple of months.
                      4. 0
                        1 December 2020 14: 46
                        Maybe there were periods without deployed fronts

                        With Germany?
                      5. 0
                        1 December 2020 15: 17
                        What about Germany? You have BF and UF deployed from 11.09.39 to 14.11.39, from 07.01.40 to 13.03.40 - NWF, from 01.07.40 and until the victorious one - DVF.
                        You have an aircraft with valid fronts and some difficulty in deployment or what? Or Germany has deployed fronts against the USSR all this time?
                      6. +1
                        1 December 2020 17: 17
                        What about Germany?

                        We were at war with Germany? What is done after mobilization and deployment?
                      7. 0
                        6 December 2020 11: 45
                        Losses of the Red Army during the entire war 10,7 million. Data of A.V. Isaev.
                      8. +1
                        6 December 2020 15: 24
                        Quote: GRIGORIY76
                        Isaeva A.V.

                        And you do not confuse general and irrevocable, hour? In terms of irrevocable loss, France was 0,67 for the entire war, and the military was 0,25, and the civilian suffered a lot during the liberation, the strategic bomber is a kind of weapon.
              2. -2
                30 November 2020 23: 08
                They explained to you: the operations had to be planned competently, taking into account all the factors. Do not throw infantry in close ranks on machine guns, do not attack with two tanks, when there is an opportunity to hit with twenty vehicles at once. The Germans even noticed a couple of our foolishness: to attack with weak forces, i.e. introduce tanks into battle in parts and a strange persistence in capturing heights, i.e. the height has no value, and ours stubbornly throw the infantry into the assault.
                The Germans also made mistakes, but less, for example, they did not have to get involved in the complete capture of Stalingrad, but they had to leave a small barrier near the city and go around it from the south or move to Astrakhan, and they resisted, although they say Hitler insisted on this.
                1. +5
                  1 December 2020 06: 11
                  Infantry in close ranks? Take critically what is written in your memoirs, in any, the infantry in close ranks are tales about the hordes of Ivanov. Further, if the Germans do not need a height, they defend it? Tanks in small batches, in the conditions of the USSR it was impossible to create such an instrument of war for a German tank division.
                  And your proposal to advance without roads to Astrakhan is just game. Send troops to nowhere where it will be impossible to supply them.
                2. +1
                  1 December 2020 08: 21
                  They explained to you

                  Normal errors for a newly formed connection. With permanent mobilization, the subsidence of the level of training is an inevitable evil. By December 31, 1941, the spacecraft had formed and reformed the 821 equivalent of the division.
                3. +3
                  1 December 2020 10: 31
                  Quote: Fan-Fan
                  They explained to you: the operations had to be planned competently, taking into account all the factors.

                  So the planned operations were just fine. The main nonsense began at the stage of execution, when the illiterate command staff began to interpret the orders in a lot of ways.
                  And we have no other command staff. In the first half of the 30s, 80-90% of cadets - future divisional commanders and regiment commanders - had an education of less than 3 classes. It was on this base that military education lay down ... and then during the "debriefing" they were surprised that the command staff did not even know the charter.
                  Quote: Fan-Fan
                  The Germans also made mistakes, but less, for example, they did not have to get involved in the complete capture of Stalingrad, but they had to leave a small barrier near the city and bypass it from the south or move to Astrakhan

                  Small barrier will not save - at the time of the Germans' exit to the city in Stalingrad itself and in the immediate vicinity, there were only five tank corps. Plus STZ, which regularly made up for the losses of equipment and issued tanks for new units.
          2. 0
            1 December 2020 12: 25
            And how was it necessary?
            Elementary, since at 43 only at 41, at a high price our leadership learned to fight!
    2. -1
      5 December 2020 06: 50
      Name the European army of that time, whose military leaders understood.
      1. 0
        7 December 2020 09: 28
        Name the European army of that time, whose military leaders understood.
        Wehrmacht
        1. -1
          8 December 2020 03: 23
          I asked about the opponents of the Germans in Europe. The answer was not accepted.
          1. 0
            8 December 2020 10: 30
            It was necessary to diligently study the military craft, learn from experience, so that later you would not have to pay for your studies with tens of millions of lives.
            1. -2
              8 December 2020 16: 26
              What the Red Army did, exactly as you said. She diligently studied military craft, adopted experience. Therefore, she took out the nemchura with shame. Or do you have a different story? I have this one.
              1. 0
                8 December 2020 16: 38
                What the Red Army did
                We saw what the Red Army was doing in 41-42, when the losses were such that a person with a higher education could get a lieutenant on mobilization, so imagine the level of military skill.
                1. -3
                  8 December 2020 17: 30
                  I don't know what you saw, I see something else.
                  1. 0
                    9 December 2020 12: 53
                    I don't know what you saw, I see something else.
                    "Misunderstanding of the nature of modern war" This is a directive of the Headquarters, consider the opinion of the country's leadership and I.V. Stalin from 1942. I see it exactly like the competent people of their time.
  9. +2
    30 November 2020 13: 28
    Once I watched a program about Pervitin, which was widely used by the Germans in the army and aviation, which allowed them to conduct a high rate of offensive for days without sleep and rest. I think he also played an important role.
  10. +2
    30 November 2020 16: 18
    The Romanians and Hungarians let the Germans down.
    1. +1
      30 November 2020 16: 37
      The Germans themselves let themselves down, there was no reason to transfer the 11th army from the Crimea to Leningrad.
    2. -3
      8 December 2020 16: 27
      Uh-huh, Romanians, Hungarians, Italians, frosts, partisans (wrong bandits in the forest) - anyone and anything. Just not the stupidity, cliched thinking and idiocy in the military developments of the "gloomy Teutonic genius", right?
  11. +3
    30 November 2020 16: 59
    Quote: Vladimir61
    It was he who “signaled” to Stalin that everything was fine and that success was guaranteed, and then transferred all the arrows to the command.

    And when Khrushchev came out with the exposure of the cult of Stalin, he shifted all responsibility for the terrible Kharkov catastrophe onto him! He allegedly reported to Stalin about the danger of a flank attack by the Germans and the threat of encirclement, but they did not listen to him! In fact, the rate itself warned Tymoshenko and Khrushchev about this, but they, and especially this mediocrity-Khrushchev, really wanted to distinguish themselves before the Supreme! Unfortunately, this catastrophe is not the only case when his cunning and sycophancy before the Supreme allowed him to get out of the water!
  12. +1
    30 November 2020 17: 54
    Competently, concisely and accessible! Thanks a lot to the author! We put everything on the shelves competently.
  13. 0
    30 November 2020 18: 24
    The Soviet command believed that the German offensive in 1942 would be on Moscow, and concentrated the main forces in this direction.


    You would have shown the main forces in the Moscow direction in tsiferki.
  14. +1
    30 November 2020 20: 06
    Thanks to the author! It's questionable ...
    "If the Germans crossed the Volga, the country would be cut, it would be deprived of the Caucasian oil"
  15. +3
    30 November 2020 23: 10
    How many couch experts and unrecognized military geniuses are on the site. Now, if they were in command, we would have taken Berlin in 1941. By the way, the Germans also have enough of them.
    1. +1
      1 December 2020 12: 57
      The Germans, by the way, have no complaints about their generals. They have complaints about cold winters and bad roads.
  16. +4
    30 November 2020 23: 58
    Probably the most bloodthirsty science is the science of winning, how dear it was given to our grandfathers. How were they able to withstand? Grind the best army in the world to dust and become the best? Fantastic generation!
  17. +1
    1 December 2020 10: 14
    On the hike, part of the text was compiled according to the reports of Die Deutsche Wohenschau, the second army near Leningrad was surrounded, but the encirclement was pierced, a narrow-gauge railway was built in an attempt to hold onto what had been achieved, but in the end the second shock army had to be evacuated to its original positions. In the summer there was a new offensive and alas, the army was again surrounded and this time it did not really get out. According to the reports of Die Deutsche Wohenschau, the army was surrounded and destroyed in the spring, but this is far from the case.
    The Barvenkovsky ledge was not surrounded, although the German offensive provided for this. The plan was thwarted by the Soviet attack on Kharkov. Yes, near Kharkov in the IZYUM area, the Germans closed the encirclement, but the main forces left the Barrivenka ledge.
    I didn't read to the end, I don't see the point.
  18. 0
    1 December 2020 14: 34
    As one of the bosses taught me: "The basis of everything is planning!" As planned the Kharkov operation, so it was carried out. Now, most likely, it is no longer possible to find the ends, but, as I believe, Plan B, with the German counteroffensive and the action of reserves in this case, was there.
  19. -1
    2 December 2020 17: 00
    after a successful battle near Moscow, Stalin's strategic genius demanded to continue the offensive. well, they profuked again.
  20. +1
    3 December 2020 18: 29
    There is evidence that German intelligence found maps on the dead commanders of the Red Army, on which the lines of retreat were indicated. That is, there was no panicky flight to the Volga.
  21. 0
    5 December 2020 17: 20
    The article contains bloopers, the motorized division "Great Germany" was not part of the SS, this is a Wehrmacht division, numbering more than 40 thousand people according to various sources, the author's entire message is reduced to the mediocre military leaders of the Red Army, but that the daily losses of the Germans and their Allies in 1942 were higher than in 1941, not a word, in my opinion, the disaster in the summer of 1942 was caused by an incorrect assessment of the information about the direction of the main attack of the Germans by the top military-political leadership of the USSR, although our intelligence worked in advance
  22. 0
    6 December 2020 18: 29
    Quote: Cherry Nine
    Quote: GRIGORIY76
    Isaeva A.V.

    And you do not confuse general and irrevocable, hour? In terms of irrevocable loss, France was 0,67 for the entire war, and the military was 0,25, and the civilian suffered a lot during the liberation, the strategic bomber is a kind of weapon.


    To blush, Isaev refers to these data.
  23. 0
    8 December 2020 17: 03
    Quote: t-12
    The Germans, by the way, have no complaints about their generals. They have complaints about cold winters and bad roads.

    Hitler had complaints about his generals.
  24. 0
    9 December 2020 20: 57
    Here is a document stating that "the Russians do not abandon their own": on August 15, 1942, the Supreme Command showed interest in the fate of those surrounded. Directive of the Supreme Command Rate No. 170569 I.V. Stalin pointed out:
    “According to reports from the headquarters of the Stalingrad Front, the 181st, 147th and 229th Rifle Divisions of the 62nd Army continue to fight in an environment of encirclement in the Yevseev, Mayorovsky, Plesistovsky areas. Despite this and the repeated instructions of the Headquarters, the Stalingrad Front has not provided them with assistance to this day. The Germans never leave their units, surrounded by Soviet troops, and use all possible forces and means to try at all costs to break through to them and save them. The Soviet command should have more comradely feeling for its encircled units than the fascist German command. In fact, however, it turns out that the Soviet command shows much less concern for its encircled units than the German. This puts a stain of shame on the Soviet command. The headquarters considers it a matter of honor for our Stalingrad command to save the encircled units. Our Stalingrad command now has sufficient forces and means to break through to its encircled divisions and withdraw them. I will not say anything about the situation in Sevastopol, there was an order from the headquarters: "Save the leadership!" and quit all the rest!
  25. 0
    31 December 2020 17: 42
    One of the main reasons for the catastrophe of 1942 was the convoy PQ 17 abandoned by the British fleet (delivering weapons to 20-25 divisions) and the postponed next paid in gold ... this is the moment when the evacuated factories are just beginning to move and the rate distributes weapons on the fronts piece by piece , but this does not remove responsibility from the intelligence service that did not see the direction of the strategic strike, and even more so from the rate of the second time stepping on a rake (600,000 Kiev boiler of 1641, which finally deprived the Red Army of the pre-war trained army in the western direction
  26. 0
    25 January 2021 08: 32
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Quote: svp67
    Yeah, and the General Staff and Headquarters, they so ... passed by ... Well, what a fairy tale

    As a result, instead of an offensive aimed at shaking the entire front of Army Group South, it was decided to limit itself to a more modest operation. Its task was to liberate the city of Kharkov by the forces of the Southwestern Front by strikes in converging directions south and north of the city, with the prospect of reaching the Dnieper. The revised plan was reported by S.K. Timoshenko and N.S. Khrushchev to the Supreme Commander-in-Chief and Chief of the General Staff on Monday, March 30, 1942. According to the memoirs of A.M. Vasilevsky, B.M. Shaposhnikov opposed the operation, motivating his position by riskiness attacks from the operational bag of the Barvenkovsky ledge. As a result, J.V. Stalin personally gave permission to hold it. At the same time, Stalin ordered the General Staff "to consider the operation as an internal matter of the direction and not to interfere in any issues on it."
    © Isaev


    This once again confirms that the offensive near Kharkov was a test of strength, after which Stalin realized that the Wehrmacht was still very strong, especially with air superiority. Moreover, the Crimean front was defeated by Kesselring's air army, concentrated from all sectors of the southern direction to strike in the Crimea, and then this group was quickly deployed near Kharkov and suppressed Timoshenko's tank breakthroughs with dive bombers.
    Stalin did not particularly punish anyone for the failure near Kharkov, unlike the loss of Crimea, Crimea was the main obstacle to the German offensive in the Caucasus and this violated Stalin's plans. Based on the results of the battles near Rzhev, Stalin realized about the strength of the German defense and decided to retreat to the Volga to stretch the Wehrmacht in different directions. Our troops, when retreating to the Volga and the Caucasus, practically did not offer resistance.
    By the end of August, the Volga rokada was ready, Stalin's idea from January 42nd. Our troops retreated to it and thanks to which we stopped and then defeated the Germans at Stalingrad. If the Crimea had been Ours at that moment, the defeat would have been even more serious, the entire southern group of troops would have been left without supplies and surrounded. The Volga rokada played a huge role in the transfer of the mass of our troops for the counteroffensive.
    Yes, I also want to clarify - Stalin did not allow the launch of Operation Uranus until our aviation won air superiority, there was an experience of encirclement near Demyansk, when the well-established air supply prevented the defeat of the German group. Stalin did not even initiate Zhukov and Vasilevsky into these ideas. Therefore, Zhukov was indignant at Stalin's inaction when Timoshenko's offensive near Kharkov. And the German offensive in the summer of 42 on Moscow was thwarted because of the alleged "ease" of the defeat of the Red Army near Kharkov, as they call it distracted and lured.
  27. 0
    5 November 2021 14: 45
    Why did they roll back so quickly? - Answer on Wikipedia:

    On January 1, 1942, an expanded meeting of the Supreme Command Headquarters, the highest command body of the USSR, took place. The meeting was attended by: Chief of General Staff B.M.Shaposhnikov and his deputy A.M. Vasilevsky, members of the State Defense Committee G.M. Malenkov and L.P. Beria, as well as a member of the State Defense Committee N.A.Voznesensky, who was responsible for plans for the production of weapons ... The issue of strategic plans for 1942 was discussed. The main report was given by Shaposhnikov. It was proposed to launch an offensive in all sectors of the front - northern, central and southern - in order to achieve a decisive victory already in 1942. G.K. Zhukov and N.A.Voznesensky spoke in the discussion. Voznesensky said that the material resources of the USSR would not be enough to implement such a large-scale plan. Zhukov believed that resources should not be scattered in all directions, but concentrated on the central sector of the front, as the most important. The discussion was summed up by Stalin, who pointed out that one should not refer to difficulties, but look for ways to overcome them. The general offensive plan was approved; the corresponding orders were sent to the commander of the fronts [3]: 297, 298.
    The Stalinist method of "Offensive along the entire front" was applied later in the course of the war, which often led to unjustified losses with limited results [5].

    Thus, the catastrophe of 1941 had just ended, and the second one began immediately - in 1942: the defeat of the 2nd Shock Army near Leningrad, the Rzhev meat grinder, the Kharkov catastrophe, which allowed the enemy to reach the Wave and the Caucasus. And if the defeat of 1041 was a natural and inevitable consequence of military development, foreign and domestic policy under the leadership of the shoemaker's son, then the catastrophe of 1942 was the result of the whim of an insane tyrant, who decided that 1942 would be the year of "the final defeat of the German fascist invaders."

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