Military Review

Russian "Valkyrie": slave UAV "Thunder"

97

Deficit of our UAVs



Since the beginning an armed conflict between Azerbaijan and the unrecognized Nagorno-Karabakh Republic (NKR) the topic of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) does not leave the pages of specialized publications. Previously, UAVs showed themselves excellently in conflicts in Syria and Libya, successfully destroying ground targets and sometimes even winning in a confrontation with the latest Russian anti-aircraft missile-gun systems (ZRPK) "Pantsir".

In Russia, for a long time, there was a rather serious lag in the development and adoption of UAVs for service. This is especially true for high-altitude long-range UAVs such as HALE (High Altitude Long Endurance), designed for flights at altitudes over 14 meters, and MALE (Medium Altitude Long Endurance) class, at altitudes of 000-4 meters.

Turning point 2020


Despite the situation with the coronavirus COVID-19, which significantly influenced the implementation of many projects around the world, 2020 may become a turning point in terms of equipping the Russian armed forces with UAVs of various types.

First of all, this is the adoption into service on April 20, 2020 of the Orion complex, which includes UAVs, which can be attributed to the lower threshold of the HALE class. Also in 2020, presumably completed tests of the heavier UAV "Altair" / "Altius-U" (the last designation "Altius-RU"), which allows us to cautiously expect its appearance in service in 2021.


The first Russian UAV system "Orion" of the HALE class, adopted for service. A still from the NTV "Smotr" program. High technologies: new Russian drones


Test flight of the UAV "Altius-U" in 2019. Source: Russian Ministry of Defense, mil.ru

The heavy UAV S-70 "Okhotnik" is undergoing tests, in the design of which the technologies of reducing the signature are widely used. According to the head of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) in August 2020, the "Okhotnik" should be put into service in 2024.


Prototype UAV "Okhotnik". Source: Russian Ministry of Defense / YouTube

And finally, at the Army-2020 exhibition, mock-ups of the promising Sirius, Helios and Thunder UAVs, designed by the specialists of the Kronshtadt Group, were shown.


UAV models (top-down) "Sirius", "Helios" and "Thunder". Source: (c) Said Aminov / saidpvo.livejournal.com

The main problems


The main problems in creating domestic UAVs are the lack of the necessary highly efficient engines and onboard electronics.

An even more significant limiting factor that hinders the operation of UAVs at a great distance from the control point is the absence of domestic global systems of high-speed jam-resistant satellite communications.

This is especially evident when operating UAVs of the HALE and MALE class.

Prospects


At the same time, there is a certain class of UAVs for which the absence of satellite communication systems is not a critical drawback. These are UAVs, which are controlled from the side of manned aerial vehicles and with which these UAVs work within the framework of solving one problem. Of the Russian projects, the aforementioned Okhotnik UAV and Thunder UAV are focused on solving this problem.

The Okhotnik UAV, developed by Sukhoi, is a complex and expensive vehicle weighing about 20 tons.

Its complexity and cost can be comparable to that of the fifth generation Su-57 fighter.

The tasks that it can solve, and the possible tactics of its use, deserve a separate article.

Given the delays in the implementation of the Su-57 aircraft project, it can be expected that the timing of the Okhotnik UAV development will also be shifted by at least several years.

In this article, we will consider conceptually a much simpler UAV "Thunder" and its foreign counterparts (the projects of which were actually announced before it).

Skyborg program


The Skyborg program, implemented by the US Air Force (Air Force), aims to create a slave UAV for manned combat aircraft. A distinctive feature of the UAVs created under the Skyborg program should be the high intellectualization of the aircraft. In fact, the US Air Force wants to get an autonomous robot capable of taking not only risk, but also partial analysis and processing of information. In the future, such UAVs should completely replace humans.

Russian "Valkyrie": slave UAV "Thunder"
US Air Force Skyborg render.


Skyborg program presentation.

While artificial intelligence is far from the capabilities of the human brain, the slave UAVs can perform equally important tasks. Conduct reconnaissance and jamming. To strike at ground and, in the long term, at air targets. Sacrificing yourself to open up enemy air defense systems.

The variety of tasks assigned to the UAV can create a contradiction.

On the one hand, in order to hack an air defense system, inexpensive UAVs are needed (which, if necessary, can themselves be used as ammunition - a kind of cruise missile).

On the other hand, to solve complex problems (for example, confrontation with high-tech manned enemy fighters), UAVs must have an appropriate technical level, which will inevitably affect the rise in their cost.


The concept of the appearance of the UAV under the Skyborg program

Based on the foregoing, it can be assumed that as part of the Skyborg program, several UAVs can be created at once, designed to solve different problems.

Since the summer of 2020, Boeing, General Atomics Aeronautical Systems, Kratos Unmanned Aerial Systems and Northrop Grumman Systems have been working on the Skyborg program, each of which has been awarded contracts worth about $ 400 million.

XQ-58 Valkyrie


Kratos Unmanned Aerial Systems is developing the XQ-58 Valkyrie UAV. Its main purpose is reconnaissance and penetration of enemy air defenses. Thus, it is a direct analogue of the Thunder UAV.

The length of the XQ-58 Valkyrie UAV hull is about 9 meters. The wingspan is about 7 meters. The maximum speed is 1 kilometers per hour. The ceiling is 050 meters. Ferry range is about 13 kilometers.


Prototype and images of the UAV XQ-58 Valkyrie.

The XQ-58 Valkyrie UAV body is made using stealth technologies and is focused on overcoming ground air defense - the minimum effective dispersion surface (EPR) should be in the front-lower hemisphere.


Test flight of the prototype UAV XQ-58 Valkyrie.

The armament is housed in the internal compartments at four suspension points with a load capacity of 250 kg each. The XQ-58 Valkyrie UAV should be equipped with optical and radar reconnaissance equipment, a remote control system and an autopilot.

One of the most important criteria for the development of the XQ-58 Valkyrie UAV, Kratos Unmanned Aerial Systems calls the maximum reduction in the cost of its production and maintenance. UAV XQ-58 Valkyrie is created on the basis of an air target. It is assumed that its cost will be $ 2-3 million.

Loyal wingman


The Loyal Wingman UAV is being developed by the Boeing Airpower Teaming System for the Australian Air Force. It is assumed that it will be used as a wingman with tactical aircraft aviation F-35A and F / A-18F, Boeing EA-18G electronic warfare (EW) aircraft, Boeing P-8A anti-submarine aircraft and E-7A Wedgetail early warning and control aircraft (AWACS).


Image of a Loyal Wingman UAV, controlled from an E-7A Wedgetail AWACS aircraft.

Considering almost the same requirements, there is no doubt that the Loyal Wingman UAV in one form or another will / takes part in the Skyborg program.


Boeing Loyal Wingman UAV prototype

The Boeing Loyal Wingman UAV is larger than the XQ-58 Valkyrie UAV - its length is almost 12 meters. The flight range should be at least 3700 kilometers, which will be provided by a highly efficient turbojet engine used in "civilian" aircraft. UAV Boeing Loyal Wingman is made using low-signature technology. In the bow, it is equipped with a 2,6 meter long compartment for accommodating various types of equipment.


Boeing Loyal Wingman UAV presentation

Some sources say that only modular reconnaissance, communications or electronic warfare equipment will be placed in the internal compartment. In this case, the weapons will be located on an external sling. Which is somewhat strange, given the large dimensions of the Loyal Wingman UAV compared to the XQ-58 Valkyrie UAV and the decrease in stealth characteristics with this method of placing weapons.

Among the declared goals of the UAV Loyal Wingman is to carry out reconnaissance and strike at ground targets, electronic warfare and use it as a decoy target.

UAV Barracuda


Of the machines of this class, you can still remember the German-Spanish Barracuda UAV. This car has more modest characteristics. With a length of about 8 meters and a dead weight of 2 kg, the payload is 300 kg, the service ceiling is up to 300 meters, and the range is 6 kilometers. The main task of the Barracuda UAV is reconnaissance. Although its use is not excluded for performing shock tasks.


UAV Barracuda.

UAV "Thunder"


As mentioned above, the Thunder UAV model was presented at the Army-2020 exhibition by the Kronstadt group. Externally, the Thunder UAV resembles the XQ-58 Valkyrie UAV. Which is not surprising. Considering that they are created to solve the same problems. However, in size it exceeds both the Valkyrie and the Faithful Slave. Length 13,8 meters. Wingspan 10 meters. Like its American counterparts, the Thunder UAV is being implemented taking into account technologies to reduce the signature.


UAV model "Thunder". Source: BMPD, bmpd.livejournal.com

The flight speed of the “Thunder” UAV should reach 1 kilometers per hour, cruising speed - 000 kilometers per hour. The service ceiling will be 800 meters. Presumably, the AI-12-000 turbojet engine used on the Yak-222 training aircraft will be installed on the Thunder UAV.

Article Find an aircraft carrier: to replace the Tu-95RTs we said that this engine had already been considered for use in the Zond-1 and Zond-2 UAVs of the Sukhoi Design Bureau. Apparently, this is the most economical domestic solution available to Russian UAV developers.

For UAV "Thunder" declared combat range of 700 kilometers. On the one hand, it seems smaller than the XQ-58 Valkyrie UAV and the Loyal Wingman UAV. For which the range can be over 1 kilometers (based on the ferry range). On the other hand, the range is sometimes indicated taking into account the time for UAV loitering in the target area. The range of communication systems for UAV control may also act as a limiting factor.

In general, for the Russian training aircraft Yak-130, equipped with two AI-222-25 engines, a flight range of 2 km is declared. And for its Chinese counterpart Hongdu L-000, equipped with similar AI-15-222F forced engines, the declared flight range is 25 km, with a lower maximum take-off weight of the latter.

Taking into account the above, it can be assumed that a ferry range of the order of 3-000 kilometers may well be achieved for the Thunder UAV.


UAV model "Thunder". Source: BMPD, bmpd.livejournal.com

The maximum payload mass of the Thunder UAV is 2 kg. Which is presumably larger than the XQ-000 Valkyrie UAV and the Loyal Wingman UAV. A variety of guided weapons can be used as weapons: the Kh-58ML guided missile, the KAB-38S and KAB-500LG corrected air bombs, the promising Product 250 guided missile with a multispectral homing head.


The range of UAV weapons "Thunder". Source: BMPD, bmpd.livejournal.com

It can be noted that (in comparison with the American Skyborg program) UAV "Thunder" is more focused on performing shock functions in the role of "unmanned attack aircraft". On the implementation of such tasks as electronic warfare, issued armory aircraft armament platform or relay of communication of speech is not yet in progress. Perhaps these tasks will be assigned to the larger, more complex and expensive UAV "Okhotnik" or later implemented.


Characteristics of the UAV "Thunder". Source: A.V. Karpenko / bastion-karpenko.ru

Intelligence is also indicated by the last item. At the same time, in front of the "Thunder" UAV mock-up there is a pronounced radio-transparent radome fairing. For the use of some samples of high-precision weapons, optoelectronic reconnaissance equipment will also be required.

Does the Russian Air Force need a Thunder-type UAV?


On the one hand, such UAVs will inevitably be more expensive than simpler solutions such as the Orion UAV. On the other hand, with the development of anti-UAV-oriented air defense, low-speed solutions with piston motors may become too easy a target. Although jet UAVs are likely to be more visible in the infrared and acoustic ranges. Ultimately, most likely all types of UAVs will be operated, each of which will occupy its own niche.

The interaction of the Thunder UAV with manned combat aircraft raises a question. (When the UAVs developed under the Skyborg program are assigned the functions of electronic warfare, relay communication or a remote weapon platform when working against air targets, they will require minimal intervention from tactical aviation pilots. On the other hand, when attacking ground targets, the pilot will need to pay the UAV much more time, which can endanger the "leader"). To what extent will the Thunder UAV be automated and will it not become a burden for its leader?

Article Where will the combat aircraft go: will it press down on the ground or gain altitude?? the author concluded that manned aircraft will go to great heights. And at low altitudes only UAVs will remain. Manned tactical aircraft will be used only to engage especially important targets, while UAVs will carry out the main work.

In view of the above, the concept of "tactical manned aircraft + UAV attack aircraft" can be questioned. It is in terms of the defeat of ground targets. Since the use of slave UAVs as a carrier of electronic warfare means, carried out reconnaissance or weapons can be extremely effective. But in our case, it will most likely be a bunch of Su-57 + UAV S-70 (Hunter).

According to the author, the best solution for destroying ground targets would be to use Tu-214R reconnaissance aircraft as a control center for UAVs, including the Thunder-type UAV.

Tu-214R is now the most modern reconnaissance aircraft of the Russian Air Force. It is equipped with a multi-frequency radio engineering complex MRK-411 with lateral and circular radar stations developed by TsNIRTI im. Academician A.I. Berg, as well as the high-resolution optical-electronic system "Fraction". The estimated detection range of radar targets in the active mode is 250 kilometers, the detection range of the enemy radar in the passive radio reconnaissance mode is up to 400 kilometers.


Reconnaissance aircraft Tu-214R. Source: russianplanes.net

Presumably, the internal volumes of the Tu-214R will make it possible to place the equipment for controlling the Grom UAV. It is difficult to say how many UAV operators can be accommodated in the Tu-214R. Their probable number may be at least eight people. In this case, the Tu-214R can detect targets using both its own reconnaissance means and UAV reconnaissance means, and then promptly destroy them.


Automated operator's workstation in the Tu-214R aircraft.

The strike group may include UAVs of the "Thunder" type with various payloads and missions (strike UAVs, UAVs with electronic warfare equipment, with anti-radar weapons, with false targets, with an additional suspended reconnaissance container, etc.), which will allow flexible building tactics attacks.

UAV carousels


UAVs "Thunder" will be able to operate at a distance of up to 250 kilometers from the Tu-214R aircraft and more, if communication systems allow. The “wave” raid mode can be implemented, when the “Thunder” UAVs will be based at the airfield. Automatically or under control of a ground-based UAV will take off and advance on autopilot into the Tu-214R patrol zone. Under the control of operators on board the Tu-214R, strike the enemy and automatically return to the home base for refueling, servicing and recharging. In parallel, the second "wave" of the UAV will move out from the airfield. It will turn out something like “tank carousel "used by the Russian Armed Forces during the Chechen war.

If the communication and control systems of the UAVs "Thunder", "Orion", "Altair" and others are unified, the aviation control center based on the Tu-214R can be used to solve combat missions of UAVs of different types, using their strengths. If such unification is not envisaged, then it must be implemented now, while the Russian Armed Forces are not yet saturated with UAVs.

If, for some reason, the placement of the UAV control point on the Tu-214R is impossible (for example, due to the high cost of reconnaissance equipment and / or its significant dimensions, which do not allow placing the communication and control systems of the UAV), then a specialized solution can be created based on Tu-214PU (control center) or Tu-214USUS (airborne communication center). The advantage of these machines is the increased flight range of up to 10 kilometers due to the installation of additional fuel tanks under the cockpit floor. The number of UAV operators can also be increased.


Tu-214PU. Source: https://russianplanes.net

High intensity fire impact


The combination of a reconnaissance aircraft / UAV control aircraft with high-speed Thunder-type UAVs (and other types of UAVs) will make it possible to carry out high-intensity fire impact on the enemy with practically no risk of loss of manned combat aircraft (of course, while providing cover for the control center from enemy aircraft). One of the advantages of the Tu-214R + UAV "Thunder" bundle is that there is no need for high-speed jam-resistant satellite communication channels.

This decision can "close" the era of jet attack aircraft of the Su-25 type and front-line bombers of the Su-24 / Su-34 type, as well as significantly reduce the need to use sophisticated and expensive fifth-generation Su-57 fighters to attack ground targets.
Author:
Photos used:
topwar.ru, bastion-karpenko.ru, bmpd.livejournal.com
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  1. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 27 November 2020 04: 29
    +8
    Thanks Andrey for the article. There is something to think about. hi I would like to learn more about NATO's capabilities to counter our promising drones. Do they have any concept of fighting enemy drones.
    1. Krasnodar
      Krasnodar 27 November 2020 06: 04
      +6
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      The main task of the Barracuda UAV is reconnaissance. Although its use is not excluded for

      No )). No one has. They are thinking about releasing interceptor drones. Practitioners - Israel is shooting down UAVs with helicopters and a Patriot. The use of jet aircraft against them was recognized as ineffective.
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 27 November 2020 09: 18
        +2
        Quote: Krasnodar
        Patriot. The use of jet aircraft against them was recognized as ineffective.


        For what reason? The Patriot rocket costs no less than 3.6 million dollars, the AiM-9 - no more than half a million, and the AiM-120 - 1.3 million dollars.
        1. Krasnodar
          Krasnodar 27 November 2020 11: 02
          +6
          Since the fact that if the UAV corrects the fire with Krasnopol shells, say, at Merkava tanks, the cost of each of which is at least 6 million, then the damage will be much greater. ))
          1. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 27 November 2020 11: 04
            0
            I'm talking about something else, how the Patriot hits a small UAV, everything is already in the know. Why can't aviation be involved? Offhand, the same Searcher can be escorted from the 40-70 km station F-16 block 52
            1. Krasnodar
              Krasnodar 27 November 2020 11: 08
              +2
              The Palestinian managed to remove the F-15, the F-16 missed the Russian Outpost. Like the Patriot. The patriot was tricked, they shot down an Iranian. Another Iranian was shot down from a helicopter.
          2. Leeds
            Leeds 27 November 2020 17: 46
            +3
            Layout......
            1. Fast_mutant
              Fast_mutant 27 November 2020 23: 11
              +2
              "Like its American counterparts, the Thunder UAV is being implemented taking into account technologies to reduce the signature."
              And you can't argue ... you can't see a plywood UAV on the radar at all! )))
              But I was in the metal Tu-143 "Flight". Just finish with a file. But it will come out cheap.
        2. TatarinSSSR
          TatarinSSSR 6 December 2020 18: 28
          0
          Are air-to-air missiles cheaper? But the fact that for their launch an aircraft is needed to deliver them to the launch site - and the cost of the flight and aircraft maintenance must then be added to the cost of the B-B missile launched, not to mention financial bonuses to the pilot.
      2. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 27 November 2020 20: 42
        +2
        "Israel Shoots Down UAVs with Helicopters and a Patriot" ///
        ---
        This is a temporary solution. There are no optimal remedies.
        I think they will make reusable interceptor drones from some
        mini explosive rockets.
        1. Petrik66
          Petrik66 14 January 2021 14: 32
          0
          On balloons, men with shotguns are a sure thing.
    2. Shopping Mall
      27 November 2020 07: 52
      +7
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      Thanks Andrey for the article. There is something to think about. hi I would like to learn more about NATO's capabilities to counter our promising drones. Do they have any concept of fighting enemy drones.


      Thank you!
      There will be an article not specifically about NATO, but generally about ways to counter UAVs.
  2. Nazar
    Nazar 27 November 2020 04: 53
    +19
    Thunder analogs are already flying, and Thunder so far only in the form of a plywood model, of course, they will finalize - but by that time it will become outdated and will need to be refined again - the process is almost endless.
    It got to the point that Shoigu was already bored with endless R&D - when ordering corvettes, the minister voiced a strict requirement - no R&D, build a series.
    1. Pessimist22
      Pessimist22 27 November 2020 06: 41
      +10
      Yeah, a soothing article, like we will have everything, perhaps in a few years, but this is not certain.
      1. Gambit44
        Gambit44 24 December 2020 04: 29
        0
        The pessimist, in principle, could not say anything else)) No.
    2. Shopping Mall
      27 November 2020 07: 53
      +9
      Quote: Nazar
      Thunder analogs are already flying, and Thunder so far only in the form of a plywood model, of course, they will finalize - but by that time it will become outdated and will need to be refined again - the process is almost endless.
      It got to the point that Shoigu was already bored with endless R&D - when ordering corvettes, the minister voiced a strict requirement - no R&D, build a series.


      Well, at least Orion has already gone to the troops.

      The Thunder has an advantage - it has an engine. And the control system will be developed taking into account the experience of Orion.
      1. Nazar
        Nazar 27 November 2020 08: 59
        +5
        (Andrey Mitrofanov) - yes, they will, of course, especially as you wrote - there is an engine for it.
        I wrote about the fact that we have a strange system, the main income of firms is not from the serial production of real products, but from endless R&D - so I expressed my fears that Thunder could get into the same carousel, and this is too much time, and we and so we are pretty much behind in the UAV. hi
    3. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 27 November 2020 09: 20
      +5
      Quote: Nazar
      that Shoigu has already been bored with endless R&D


      So because there is a lot of R&D, there is no sense in the output, and ships in the series, for example, too.
    4. Boris Chernikov
      Boris Chernikov 27 November 2020 17: 05
      0
      Well, everything is clear about the ships), but the R&D UAV will have to be done in any case until the army receives a package of ready-made solutions ..
  3. Login_Off
    Login_Off 27 November 2020 05: 11
    +16
    The main problems in creating domestic UAVs are the lack of the necessary highly efficient engines and onboard electronics.

    An even more significant limiting factor that hinders the operation of UAVs at a great distance from the control point is the absence of domestic global systems of high-speed jam-resistant satellite communications.

    Stunned, that is, all there is is a circle of a young model designer constructor! No motors, no electronics. It remains to make layouts.
    1. reader65
      reader65 27 November 2020 05: 39
      +18
      It's just that uav developers need to go to the site "made by us", everything is there.
      1. Elturisto
        Elturisto 27 November 2020 13: 22
        +7
        The best comment in the topic is definitely :) Shoigu, too, let him go there ... chooses ...
    2. Elturisto
      Elturisto 27 November 2020 13: 21
      +5
      And no one is going to make them, that is, engines ...
      1. Vadim237
        Vadim237 28 November 2020 15: 08
        -2
        You are not going to do - but other guys do
        November 12, on the territory of JSC NPO OKB im. M.P. Simonov ”, a complex of acceptance tests of the MGTD-150E engine No. 001 was completed. The engine was developed and manufactured within the framework of the project of the Advanced Research Fund using additive technologies and metal-powder compositions developed by the Federal State Unitary Enterprise“ VIAM ”.

        The MGTD consisted of 6 critical parts manufactured using the selective laser fusion technology from metal-powder compositions of the Federal State Unitary Enterprise "VIAM". These are the flame tube, frontal device, jet nozzle, compressor casing, VNA casing and nozzle apparatus.

        During the tests, it was recorded that the parameters of the engine exceeded the requirements for the Terms of Reference of the project. The maximum thrust was 151,6 kgf, which is 20% higher than that of the prototype engine, while the specific fuel consumption and gas temperature behind the turbine were reduced by 10%, and the engine weight did not change.

        A number of developed alloys have surpassed foreign analogues by more than 20% in strength characteristics. Thanks to the new technology, the time for organizing the production and manufacturing of the main elements of engines was reduced by up to 20 times with a two-fold cost reduction.

        The creation of a new engine with improved characteristics became possible in the shortest possible time only due to the use of digital design methods, additive production of main parts and metal-powder compositions of new generation alloys, developed directly for the features of selective laser alloying.

        Joint project of the Foundation for Advanced Study, FSUE VIAM, JSC NPO OKB im. M.P. Simonov "on the development of new generation materials for additive technologies for the manufacture of structural elements of aircraft and rocket engines was launched in November 2015. Within the framework of the project, a line of promising small-sized gas turbine engines in the thrust class of 10, 20, 125 and 150 kgf was developed, manufactured and tested on the basis of additive production using specially developed domestic high-heat and high-strength metal-powder compositions of the Federal State Unitary Enterprise VIAM, synthesis technologies, thermal and barothermal treatments , post-processing and control.

        In July of this year, on the basis of the Kazanbash aviation center (Republic of Tatarstan), flight tests of the first domestic engine MGTD-20 were carried out, and on September 9, the first demonstration flight of a jet unmanned aerial vehicle VM "Dan" M s the domestic engine MGTD-125E, the main parts of which are manufactured according to additive technologies developed by FSUE "VIAM".
  4. certero
    certero 27 November 2020 05: 58
    +11
    In other words, with long range drones, we have a complete scribe.
  5. Gaersul
    Gaersul 27 November 2020 06: 19
    +8
    Greetings to all.
    Quote: Nazar
    It got to the point that Shoigu was already bored with endless R&D - when ordering corvettes, the minister voiced a strict requirement - no R&D, build a series.

    And you can also "work from sight". :) I think every defenseman curses these two words. R&D is needed. Any work is done on the basis of the "backlog". Well, theorists will calculate, of which there is a whole department sitting in each research institute, but how to check? Development is needed, layouts are needed. But here's a miracle, the laboratory sites where the models were made were liquidated and everyone began to "work from scratch." So money is saved, right? And then suddenly, as they say, "the crocodile is not caught, the coconut does not grow." Shoigu, he's still a demanding man. Fast, cheap and high quality - it doesn't happen!
    1. Konnick
      Konnick 27 November 2020 06: 47
      +14
      He was a foreman, and remains a foreman, let me remind you of an anecdote:

      “Former classmates gathered in a restaurant. Twenty years have passed since graduation - it's time to share your successes and achievements in life.

      - I work as an engineer, I head a department of twelve people! - said the former excellent student Misha, and everyone hummed approvingly, they say, we did not doubt your success.
      - I learned to be a doctor and run a private clinic, - the former head of the class Masha boasted, and classmates whistled enviously.
      - And I became a general, - said the matured Little Johnny.

      Everyone was terribly surprised:
      - How could you do that? You studied very badly!
      - Aha, and discipline was in complete trouble!
      - You didn't even know the multiplication table!

      Little Johnny barked in response in a commanding voice that everyone was abruptly silent:
      - And I don't know now! - banged his fist on the table so that they still ducked. - But so that tomorrow by morning it will already be !!! laughing
      1. Nazar
        Nazar 27 November 2020 09: 05
        +13
        Konnick - anecdote good
        quote: "He was a foreman, and remained a foreman" - and so, as a foreman with a huge experience of practical work, I can tell you - the foreman is not very much out of him request , but the Komsomol member is clearly visible, those who are older understand what I mean wink
        1. qQQQ
          qQQQ 27 November 2020 09: 28
          +6
          Quote: Nazar
          here the Komsomol member is clearly visible

          Well said, and a member of the Komsomol, who all his life and was engaged in this.
    2. Elturisto
      Elturisto 27 November 2020 13: 23
      +1
      Not everything is even easier, several thieves simply order a layout, model, sample abroad, and money for R&D is sawn.
  6. Konnick
    Konnick 27 November 2020 06: 42
    +13
    Quote: Login_Off
    The main problems in creating domestic UAVs are the lack of the necessary highly efficient engines and onboard electronics.

    An even more significant limiting factor that hinders the operation of UAVs at a great distance from the control point is the absence of domestic global systems of high-speed jam-resistant satellite communications.

    Stunned, that is, all there is is a circle of a young model designer constructor! No motors, no electronics. It remains to make layouts.


    And at my enterprise a frame for a model was ordered by one "aircraft building" wassat the company, from simple shaped pipes, could not even provide a normal drawing. Yes, the model constructor makes models that fly, and these talkers are only plywood models.
    Before giving the assignment for the design of the T-34 and KV tanks, they created the V-2 diesel engine, and the planes used to be created around the finished engine, and now ... the cart is ahead of the horse.
    1. Elturisto
      Elturisto 27 November 2020 13: 29
      +4
      Small 40-400 hp engines They have been developed for a long time in Voronezh. However, no one orders them. The secret is that payments for Russian gas are made under related contracts providing for counter deliveries of goods, Austria, for example, the largest gas consumer in Europe (30%), resells it to France, Italy. a green light for Austrian companies, including Rotax, AVL, Diamond and so on. Therefore, gas export is the end of the Russian Federation.
  7. viktor_ui
    viktor_ui 27 November 2020 06: 55
    +10
    Everywhere there are problems ... where the management apparatus is not engaged in organizing the technological chain, but stupidly cuts budget and not very budget loot. Bad dancers always get in the way of dancing. As an hour I remember that a year ago they triumphantly said that in terms of the level of equipment we are already in second place in the world (too lazy to look for a link on this site with the pretentious chatter of high-ranking talkers and eyewitchers) ... and in the end we have another technological ass of the level of "heavy UAV S-70 "Okhotnik", in the design of which the technologies of reducing the visibility are widely used "- especially the stelstruba in the rear projection UNIQUE belay Well, nothing, there is an example from a very well-known structure - we will compose songs and dances with tambourines in this field too. So that they live on the same salary with such quirks and approaches.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 27 November 2020 09: 25
      -4
      Quote: viktor_ui
      especially stelstroba in the rear projection UNIQUE


      The same stealth pipe is screwed onto the F-35, which is dearly adored by certain individuals, which for some reason even considers a number of especially gifted individuals to be a stealth plane. Strange huh? wassat
    2. Shopping Mall
      27 November 2020 09: 38
      +1
      Quote: viktor_ui
      ... and as a result, we have another technological ass of the level "heavy UAV S-70" Okhotnik ", in the design of which technologies for reducing the visibility are widely used" - especially the stealstrob in the rear projection ...


      This is a prototype, it is used for testing the flight characteristics, the control system. It seems that the serial will have a flat nozzle.
      1. Boris Chernikov
        Boris Chernikov 27 November 2020 17: 07
        0
        interesting .. why not then "ostelsit" and unmanned the same Yak-130? It seems to me that such a package of procedures will be cheaper and faster than making a completely new uav
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 27 November 2020 17: 54
          0
          There has been such a project since 2014. If only he started then. Already in Syria he bombed the Barmaley. Given the conditions, creating a universal platform on the basis of the Yak-130 is an absolutely logical step. UAV repeater, electronic warfare, long-range reconnaissance, light bomber.
          In 2014, the Sukhoi Design Bureau announced the Zond-1 UAV project and its version of the Zond-2 early-range radar detection (AWACS) HALE class with a wingspan of 35 meters, a flight height of up to 16 kilometers and a flight duration of up to 24 hours. Two AI-222-25 turbojet engines (TRD), used on the Yak-130 training aircraft, were supposed to be used as engines.

  8. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 27 November 2020 08: 43
    0
    I think the tasks and terms are different here. UAVs up to the middle MALE class are needed to minimize the loss of drugs in local conflicts such as the Syrian or Afghan ... and satellite control lines are not so important here.
    And the "slave" drones are a direct response to the strengthening of the air defense of the Russian Federation with the S-400 and 500 complexes and fresh BUKaimi and Pantsiri ... this is a solution to the issue with the A2D2 access restriction zones.
  9. OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 27 November 2020 09: 02
    +2
    One of the advantages of the Tu-214R + UAV "Thunder" bundle is that there is no need for high-speed noise-immune satellite communication channels.

    One of the best options for us.
    Also, the UAV can be armed with the Tu-95. For self-defense and shock missions.
    In the US, the concept of an aircraft carrier (UAV?) Is being actively developed. The project is called Gremlins. UAV X-61A.

    Kratos has other UTAP-58 slaves in addition to the XQ-22. Here it should fit into the budget of $ 4 million.
    1. Shopping Mall
      27 November 2020 09: 07
      +3
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      One of the advantages of the Tu-214R + UAV "Thunder" bundle is that there is no need for high-speed noise-immune satellite communication channels.

      One of the best options for us.
      Also, the UAV can be armed with the Tu-95. For self-defense and shock missions.
      In the US, the concept of an aircraft carrier (UAV?) Is being actively developed. The project is called Gremlins. UAV X-61A.

      Kratos has other UTAP-58 slaves in addition to the XQ-22. Here it should fit into the budget of $ 4 million.


      In principle, there has already been an article on this topic:
      Combat "Gremlins" US Air Force: the revival of the concept of aircraft carrier aircraft
      https://topwar.ru/156451-boevye-gremliny-vvs-ssha-vozrozhdenie-koncepcii-vozdushnyh-avianoscev.html
      but we will return to this topic later.
    2. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 27 November 2020 20: 48
      +1
      I really like this UTAP-22 Mako. A ready-made drone interceptor.
      Only software to shovel.
      1. OgnennyiKotik
        OgnennyiKotik 27 November 2020 21: 17
        0
        Yeah. XQ-58 is 1,5 times longer and 2 times its wingspan. With all that it implies. UTAP-22 is built on the serial BQM-167A. Due to its size, it can be launched from ground, air, surface, underwater platforms. XQ-58 is neither fish nor meat, so the KMP may be of interest. The Army and Air Force will be attracted more by UTAP, the Air Force will be more loyal wingman from Boeing.
        Given the size, it is straightforward to ask for a Transport Launcher with 3-4 guides and in the air defense. This is not only against UAVs and will not greet planes. One UTAP with radar, 2-3 with small missiles.
        1. OgnennyiKotik
          OgnennyiKotik 27 November 2020 22: 24
          -1
          Although I underestimated the size. The flight is similar in size.
  10. Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 27 November 2020 09: 22
    0
    And what about ns with motors on Altius? On Orion, according to rumors, it is almost ripe for the APD-110 series ...
    And what about Altius? VK-600 or decided to add an engine from the Cortege?
  11. Maks1995
    Maks1995 27 November 2020 09: 27
    0
    IMHO, a bunch of articles with obvious gigantomania. Give them all big, high-speed, expensive UAVs.
    But will there be a lot of them in the end?

    When, like Turkey, China, YSA and others. Massogo are developing types of cheap small UAVs for reconnaissance and Kamikaze. And about this we have much fewer articles.
    1. OgnennyiKotik
      OgnennyiKotik 27 November 2020 09: 36
      +2
      Quote: Max1995
      Massogo are developing types of cheap small UAVs for reconnaissance and Kamikaze.

      These are parallel directions for different types of troops. One complements the other, does not replace.
    2. Shopping Mall
      27 November 2020 09: 41
      0
      Quote: Max1995
      IMHO, a bunch of articles with obvious gigantomania. Give them all big, high-speed, expensive UAVs.
      But will there be a lot of them in the end?

      When, like Turkey, China, YSA and others. Massogo are developing types of cheap small UAVs for reconnaissance and Kamikaze. And about this we have much fewer articles.


      Let's get to the "consumables" hi

      Turkey is limited in technical and intellectual resources, while China and the United States are developing UAVs of all classes, ranging from strategic ones to loitering ammunition and themes such as Gremlins (essentially reusable cruise missiles).
      1. OgnennyiKotik
        OgnennyiKotik 27 November 2020 09: 52
        +1
        Quote: AVM
        Turkey is limited in technical and intellectual resources,

        They have a jet UAV in development. Its first flight is expected in the next couple of years.
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 27 November 2020 11: 13
          0
          Quote: OgnennyiKotik
          They have a jet UAV in development.


          Where will they get the engine? Develop themselves - do not offer ...
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. OgnennyiKotik
            OgnennyiKotik 27 November 2020 11: 19
            +3
            AI-25TLT will be used.
            https://diana-mihailova.livejournal.com/4352267.html
            1. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 27 November 2020 11: 22
              +1
              Yes, this is perhaps the only realistic option.
              1. OgnennyiKotik
                OgnennyiKotik 27 November 2020 11: 31
                +1
                Motor Sich and related enterprises are a tidbit for the Chinese and Turks. Western countries, the primary target for destruction. On the basis of this, production can be used to manufacture and develop your own engines. For them, the motor industry is the most problematic place. And startups cannot solve this problem.
                1. Shopping Mall
                  27 November 2020 11: 35
                  +1
                  Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                  Motor Sich and related enterprises are a tidbit for the Chinese and Turks. Western countries, the primary target for destruction. On the basis of this, production can be used to manufacture and develop your own engines. For them, the motor industry is the most problematic place. And startups cannot solve this problem.


                  When you see how much technology we lost with the collapse of the USSR, you regret that you cannot dig someone out, shoot someone in the head and bury it back ...
                  1. OgnennyiKotik
                    OgnennyiKotik 27 November 2020 11: 41
                    +6
                    30 years passed. In 1917, the Russian Empire collapsed. In 1947, no tsar even dreamed of the power of the USSR. Here the questions are not for collapse, but for the Russian power.
                2. Cyril G ...
                  Cyril G ... 27 November 2020 12: 05
                  0
                  Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                  For them, the motor industry is the most problematic place.

                  It is not just problematic, it is not lifting, at least for the Turks. The Chinese have been tinkering with copying CFM-40 for 56 years, at the moment they have achieved the assigned (but not actual, in fact, they do not finish up to 900 hours) WS-10 resource of 1200 hours.
                  Quote: OgnennyiKotik
                  Western countries, the primary target for destruction.

                  You understand, you tried to sell it, but it didn't work out - it means that the plant will now be finished. For this is a blow to both the Turks and the Chinese. We don't care.
            2. Zufei
              Zufei 27 November 2020 18: 26
              +1
              Not economical, old engine
      2. Narak-zempo
        Narak-zempo 27 November 2020 10: 15
        -4
        Quote: AVM
        Turkey is limited in technical and intellectual resources

        That's right, in the intellectual is limited.
        It is not for nothing that the people call intellectually limited people "Turks".
        1. psiho117
          psiho117 3 December 2020 23: 41
          0
          Quote: Narak-zempo
          It is not for nothing that the people call intellectually limited people "Turks".

          You will laugh, but the Turks call the "limited" individuals "Russians" in exactly the same way.
          This is all the legacy of several centuries of constant wars between the Ottoman and Russian empires.
      3. OgnennyiKotik
        OgnennyiKotik 27 November 2020 11: 52
        +2


        Supersonic UAV Goksungur will make its first flight in 2021

        Supersonic UAVs are being developed by BAYKAR and TAI. Goksungur will have high maneuverability and supersonic speed, its appearance is not yet known.

        It is noteworthy that, as in the case of AKINCI, Ukraine will initially supply engines for supersonic UAVs in Turkey. In turn, Ukraine will become the first country to acquire shock drones from Turkey.

        Baykar CEO Haluk Bayraktar: “Our next step, which we will take in the near future, is the creation of an unmanned strike fighter that will have high maneuverability and sound speed. It will be a big project and we believe that Turkey will implement it together with neighboring and friendly countries ”


        Of course, the journalists got excited about supersonic. It will not be on this engine. And supersonic is not needed on this type of UAV.
    3. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 27 November 2020 11: 12
      +5
      Quote: Max1995
      Give them all big, high-speed, expensive UAVs.
      But will there be a lot of them in the end?


      The ground forces did not toil at us and did not indulge in self-satisfaction looking at the Reaper / Bayraktar-type drummers. Firstly, in the state, unmanned aviation units were deployed in the MRBR, and secondly, they bought or developed small tactical UAV reconnaissance aircraft and introduced them into the series. As a result, about 2300 UAVs of the Orlan, Outpost, Eleron, Zastava type entered the troops at the beginning of this year.
      Air Force is different. The Air Force wants something strange - the result was dancing with a tambourine around Orion, Altius and the Hunter.
      The navy, as usual, in principle, does not think what else it could and will have to fight - because the reconnaissance aviation was killed, the UAVs are not interested. Bought 6 Outposts 6 years ago and that's it.
  12. Narak-zempo
    Narak-zempo 27 November 2020 10: 13
    -10%
    So that's it.
    You cannot intimidate us with "Bayraktars" - they themselves have drones for all cases.
  13. da Vinci
    da Vinci 27 November 2020 10: 15
    0
    Tu 214 is a large and fat target for air defense and fighters (especially with an UAV escort range of about 250-300 km), i.e. quite acceptable, if you do not expect a "response". You can replace a battlefield attack aircraft or bomber with a drone, provided
    absence of front-line aviation, which will not allow "ironing out" their positions with impunity.
    1. Shopping Mall
      27 November 2020 11: 15
      +4
      Quote: da Vinci
      Tu 214 is a large and fat target for air defense and fighters (especially with an UAV escort range of about 250-300 km), i.e. quite acceptable, if you do not expect a "response". You can replace a battlefield attack aircraft or bomber with a drone, provided
      absence of front-line aviation, which will not allow "ironing out" their positions with impunity.


      Ground-based air defense at a distance of 150-300 km is no longer easy to shoot down a target. At a distance of 247 km, the line-of-sight range will be 4000 meters, i.e. if the Tu-214R drops below, the radar will not capture it, and the enemy does not yet have Z-V missiles with a range of more than 240 km. In addition, the radar of the air defense missile system in the passive mode can be detected for 400 km, and the UAV can send it a gift in the form of protivoradar missiles.

      And it is clear that it is necessary to cover from enemy aircraft, without this there is no way.

      Also, as far as enemy fighter aircraft are concerned, the "slave" type UAVs can potentially have significantly greater maneuverability. Their "unmannedness" will allow them to perform maneuvers with overloads of 30-40G and "twist" missiles in-in.

      I'm not saying that the UAVs "Hunter", "Thunder", "Valkyrie", etc. will be able to do this, but the vehicles that follow them are quite.
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 27 November 2020 12: 12
        +1
        Quote: AVM
        .e. if the Tu-214R drops below,


        In Hokai, a mode of over-the-horizon firing of a missile defense system is implemented - in which Hokai accompanies targets, and drops the picture on the Aegis air defense system, then, in turn, broadcasts radio correction commands. True, the accuracy goes below the plinth, well, as it is.
      2. vadimtt
        vadimtt 27 November 2020 13: 17
        0
        Yes, I also like the concept of a reusable (i.e. not killable) false target from a drone with a maneuver for 40G good
  14. Operator
    Operator 27 November 2020 10: 51
    -7
    Ultra-expensive, bulky, heavy and non-maneuverable UAVs like "Hunter", Skyborg, Valkyre or "Thunder" are knocked out of the "slingshot" - by all types of air defense systems.

    The bar for the cost and take-off weight for the UAV is at the level of 1 million dollars and 1 ton, respectively - therefore, only Orions, Predators, Sirius and Helios (with turboprop installations to provide an altitude of 12 km or more).

    And best of all is 100 kg of take-off weight with a proportional decrease in cost and RCS (with internal combustion engine and 7-km flight ceiling). And the most massive - 10-kg reconnaissance UAVs with an electrical installation (there is no thermal signature for the IR seeker of MANPADS) - for the RUG what the doctor ordered.
    1. Shopping Mall
      27 November 2020 11: 29
      +3
      Quote: Operator
      Ultra-expensive, bulky, heavy and non-maneuverable UAVs like "Hunter", Skyborg, Valkyre or "Thunder" are knocked out of the "slingshot" - by all types of air defense systems.


      For UAVs under the Skyborg program, prices are announced for 3-4 million dollars. Let it be five million. What is better, to lose one F-35 in an enemy air defense attack for 100 million or several UAVs?

      Such UAVs can organize a complex "hunt" for air defense systems - electronic warfare UAVs, distracting UAVs with false targets, and several attack vehicles with weapons of various types.

      Quote: Operator
      The bar for the cost and take-off weight for the UAV is at the level of 1 million dollars and 1 ton, respectively - therefore, only Orions, Predators, Sirius and Helios (with turboprop installations to provide an altitude of 12 km or more).


      Predators, "Sirius" and "Helios" are also not cheap (the "successor" of the Predator - the MQ-9 Reaper costs more than 16 million) and are quite noticeable for air defense, minus they do not have the speed and maneuverability of jet UAVs. Plus - the possibility of long loitering.

      Quote: Operator
      And best of all is 100 kg of take-off weight with a proportional decrease in cost and RCS (with internal combustion engine and 7-km flight ceiling). And the most massive - 10-kg reconnaissance UAVs with an electrical installation (there is no thermal signature for the IR seeker of MANPADS) - for the RUG what the doctor ordered.


      We also need such, but you cannot hang powerful reconnaissance means on them, and the means for detecting and destroying them will be actively developed.
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 27 November 2020 12: 15
        0
        Quote: AVM
        MQ-9 Reaper costs more than 16 million) and are quite noticeable for air defense, minus they do not have the speed and maneuverability of jet UAVs. Plus - the possibility of long loitering.


        Reaper is a modern version of the colonial bomber, not a stormtrooper at all.
        1. Shopping Mall
          27 November 2020 12: 48
          +2
          Quote: Cyril G ...
          Quote: AVM
          MQ-9 Reaper costs more than 16 million) and are quite noticeable for air defense, minus they do not have the speed and maneuverability of jet UAVs. Plus - the possibility of long loitering.


          Reaper is a modern version of the colonial bomber, not a stormtrooper at all.


          In my opinion, an "attack aircraft" is generally something that attacks a target with "direct fire", unguided ammunition. But now this concept is blurring, even "real" attack aircraft are increasingly shooting Helfires and Vortexes, in fact turning into a front-line bomber.

          So yes, all HALE-class UAVs with guided weapons can rather be attributed to something like a light front-line bomber.
          1. OgnennyiKotik
            OgnennyiKotik 27 November 2020 13: 00
            +1
            Quote: AVM
            But now this concept is blurring, even "real" stormtroopers are increasingly shooting Helfires and Whirlwinds,

            The A-10C retains only a cannon of unguided weapons. Remnants of Hydras are being upgraded to controlled APKWS II.
            Old classifications simply don't fit new cars. It will settle down over time.
          2. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 27 November 2020 13: 03
            0
            I'm talking about tasks, and not at all about the style and tactics of actions.
  15. DWG1905
    DWG1905 27 November 2020 12: 29
    0
    Thank you for the article. There are, of course, inaccuracies, but given that the enemies can read, I will not specify. The venture with the RPV for controlling the UAV is interesting, only you need to add an air launch of the UAV, otherwise there are restrictions on the binding to the airfield. During an air launch of a UAV, if, due to the distance to the airfield, landing on an aircraft is not possible, the UAV can be disposable or with a parachute landing on a controlled area (if you really feel sorry for the materiel). And on the Tu-204, a couple of flights quite got up, only it was a long time ago, the idea did not go further. Actually from the air launch in the USSR, the groundmen refused so as not to get involved with the Air Force. I carry everything with me. In general, from the point of view of UAVs, the ground forces are at the forefront, only their UAVs are not formally aircraft so that testers from the Air Force would not be contacted otherwise. Reconnaissance UAVs should be divided into peacetime machines (taking a long time without haste) and military-type Tu-243 flight at low altitude with a speed of about 900-1000 km / h, then a slide above the object and again at a low altitude until they were shot down. Flights from the Crimea Bosphorus quite got out and brought already developed negatives of A4 format. Attack forces, in fact, also need to be divided into strategic, operational-tactical and conflict types (technical equipment of the enemy). And about the Navy, with all my deep respect, they do not know where to attach manned aircraft, but here the UAV.
    1. Shopping Mall
      27 November 2020 12: 55
      +1
      Quote: DWG1905
      Thank you for the article.


      Thank you!

      Quote: DWG1905
      ... it is necessary to add another UAV air launch, otherwise there will be restrictions on binding to the airfield. During an air launch of a UAV, if landing on an aircraft is not possible due to the distance to the airfield, the UAV can be one-time or with a parachute landing on a controlled area (if you really feel sorry for the materiel). And on the Tu-204, a couple of flights were quite up, only it was a long time ago, the idea did not go further.


      I thought about it, but "Reis-D" weighs 1,5 tons, and "Thunder" 7 tons, it doesn't work out like that, here you need something like drones developed under the Gremlins program, made on the basis of the Kyrgyz Republic, with a resource for 10-20 flights launched and taken in the air by a transport aircraft.

      Quote: DWG1905
      Actually from the air launch in the USSR, the groundmen refused so as not to get involved with the Air Force. I carry everything with me. In general, from the point of view of UAVs, the ground forces are at the forefront, only their UAVs are not formally aircraft so that testers from the Air Force would not be contacted otherwise.


      Departmental disagreements must be suppressed in the most severe way. In our time, either the Armed Forces will function as a whole, or we will lose. The USA is working very intensively in this regard.
      1. OgnennyiKotik
        OgnennyiKotik 27 November 2020 13: 09
        +2
        Quote: AVM
        "Reis-D" weighs 1,5 tons, and "Thunder" 7 tons, it doesn't work out with it, here you need something like drones developed under the Gremlins program,


        UTAP-22, pictured under the wing of the F-15. He also goes on the Skyborg program.
        In general, two types of followers are requested
        Light UTAP-22 (air or catapult launch, cheap consumable)
        Heavy Loyal Wingman from Boeing (airplane takeoff, extended capabilities)
        I think it will come to this. The light follower is unified with the gremlin.


        Features:

        Length - 6,13 m;
        Height - 0,7 m.;
        Wingspan - 3,2 m.;
        Engine - 1 x turbojet;
        Flight time - 2.5 hours;
        Cruising flight speed - 800 km \ h.;
        Maximum flight speed - 1 125 km \ h.;
        Maximum height - 15 200 m.;
        Flight range - 2 1600 km.;
        Payload weight - 250 kg, while in the bomb bay - 160 kg. + 45 kg each. ammunition under each wing.
  16. Konnick
    Konnick 27 November 2020 12: 59
    -5
    Quote: Cyril G ...
    The same stealth pipe is screwed onto the F-35, which is dearly adored by certain individuals, which for some reason even considers a number of especially gifted individuals to be a stealth plane. Strange huh?


    Is it strange? For the gifted, such as you, there is an article on VO "Flat nozzle for Russian combat aircraft: from Soviet developments to perspective." And the F-35 doesn't have a round nozzle, but a flat one. There is no difference for you.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 27 November 2020 13: 06
      +4
      Quote: Konnick
      And the F-35 doesn't have a round nozzle, but a flat one.

      No. wassat

      Wipe the eyes of the especially gifted. For you, there is definitely no difference .... By the way, do not confuse the F-35 with the F-22.
      1. Konnick
        Konnick 27 November 2020 13: 17
        -2
        Well, I confused it, but the Hunter was announced with a flat nozzle.
  17. Operator
    Operator 27 November 2020 13: 08
    -3
    Quote: AVM
    For UAVs under the Skyborg program, prices are announced for 3-4 million dollars

    By 1 million bucks, I meant the lower price level, and in the Russian version.

    Therefore, the question is: why does a goat need a button accordion (a UAV with a take-off weight of 10 tons and a cost of the n-th number of lemons) when there are good old CDs worth an order of magnitude lower, weighing 5 times less and with a range like these UAVs?

    And for UAVs with a takeoff weight of 100 kg, there are gliding bombs weighing 25 kg with an aerodynamic quality of 10 units (the gliding range of which from an altitude of 7000 m is 70 km). Plus, the use of alcohol-based fuel cells and an electric motor makes it possible to increase the flight altitude of these UAVs to 12 km with a bomb planning range of up to 120 km.

    In other words, a pair of cheap 100-kg UAVs with a pair of gliding anti-radar bombs are guaranteed to destroy the air defense system's radar without entering the air defense zone.

    "Then why pay more?" (FROM)
  18. Bear
    Bear 27 November 2020 13: 29
    -1
    Good day everyone. I do not agree with the author regarding the lack of domestic global systems of high-speed noise-immune satellite communications. At present, there are three operators of communication satellites in geostationary orbits in Russia: RSCC (Express spacecraft), Gazprom (Yamal spacecraft) and Moscow Region (Blagovest spacecraft), which provide coverage areas for almost 90% of the earth's surface and can provide the necessary transmission rate of communication channels for UAVs. The closure of communication channels is carried out directly by on-board equipment, but the noise immunity from external influences, so it is the same for us and the foe, no one has canceled the laws of the physics of radio wave propagation.
    1. Shopping Mall
      27 November 2020 14: 28
      +1
      Quote: Orso
      Good day everyone. I do not agree with the author regarding the lack of domestic global systems of high-speed noise-immune satellite communications. At present, there are three operators of communication satellites in geostationary orbits in Russia: RSCC (Express spacecraft), Gazprom (Yamal spacecraft) and Moscow Region (Blagovest spacecraft), which provide coverage areas for almost 90% of the earth's surface and can provide the necessary transmission rate of communication channels for UAVs. The closure of communication channels is carried out directly by on-board equipment, but the noise immunity from external influences, so it is the same for us and the foe, no one has canceled the laws of the physics of radio wave propagation.


      In general, a geostationary is characterized by a large signal delay (ping), but I cannot say how critical this is. It hinders gamers, in theory, delays in UAV control can have critical consequences.

      Gazprom will not give the military communications, or it will be "banned" on the international market by sanctions. The filling of the "Express" spacecraft was developed by foreign companies, I am not sure that they can be used for military purposes, and whether the enemy has the possibility of turning them off. Blagovest, by the way, also with foreign participation.

      If the equipment is a "foe", then there may be problems with the closure of the channel. The GSM signal, for example, is not badly encrypted, but the operator decrypts it directly in the communication equipment. If only VPN tunnels inside the Internet channel ...

      The laws of physics are the same, but at the same time, one mobile phone picks up the signal, and the other does not, one walkie-talkie gives a clear sound, and the other a continuous hiss.
      1. Bear
        Bear 27 November 2020 18: 46
        +2
        Andrey, you are, of course, not a signalman. There is no real-time signal delay as of today, in terms of implementing compensation for the transit time of 72 t.km. to the spacecraft and back - this is the first. I am reporting to you, as a person working with telephone channels. Moreover, when transferring large amounts of data, there will be no delays.
        With gamers, it's a different story, they only have a "pipe" from space, and the transfer is "current krantik" ele, well, if you understand what I mean.
        At the expense of Gazprom and RSCC, it is customary all over the world to use "dual-purpose" satellites, we, like everyone else, with which I congratulate you.
        No one, neither the Ministry of Defense, nor the RSCC, will design and launch a spacecraft with pre-built capabilities to disable it remotely. Well u, here, trust me.
        About operators, you also do not know. KA is an RTR, a barrel, into which a certain amount of water from different pipelines has poured, and poured out through other pipelines. Well, your last point, I won't even comment, sorry. Hissing is about quality and selectivity. Sorry.
        1. S. Viktorovich
          S. Viktorovich 28 November 2020 20: 25
          0
          "Hissing", quality factor, selectivity - this is the terminology of those who studied the oscillatory circuit. There was such a Honorovsky. Noise immunity is from another opera.
    2. S. Viktorovich
      S. Viktorovich 27 November 2020 15: 26
      +2
      The laws of physics are the same, however, the channels are designed with different noise immunity, i.e. one and the same hindrance "crushes" some channels, and some do not, all other things being equal. The development of noise-immune channels is a separate area of ​​technology.
  19. OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 27 November 2020 13: 38
    +1
    This decision could "close" the era of jet attack aircraft of the Su-25 type and front-line bombers of the Su-24 / Su-34 type

    By the way, the Su-34 as a control center for slave UAVs may be the best solution.
    1. Shopping Mall
      27 November 2020 15: 08
      +1
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      This decision could "close" the era of jet attack aircraft of the Su-25 type and front-line bombers of the Su-24 / Su-34 type

      By the way, the Su-34 as a control center for slave UAVs may be the best solution.


      On the one hand, yes, there is a co-pilot who can devote time to the UAV. On the other hand, it is possible that it is more cost effective to keep one Tu-214R with 8-12-16 operators and powerful reconnaissance assets, plus the operators will work in much more comfortable conditions.

      On the third hand, we have Su-34 and Su-30SM, and their number is still increasing. And as a means to increase their capabilities and survivability, a slave UAV may well come in handy.
      1. FemiA
        FemiA 30 December 2020 14: 24
        0
        If the control center is lost, all operators are likely to die. Another consideration is possibly the length of operator training.
  20. S. Viktorovich
    S. Viktorovich 27 November 2020 14: 56
    0
    Until a system of anti-jamming radio communications is introduced, all these projects are wasted money.
  21. Tektor
    Tektor 27 November 2020 15: 43
    0
    One of the most important assignments for Thunder, Hunter and Altius, I would call patrolling the lines of attack of the B-52. This is especially suitable for Altius with a long-range RVV (R-37M, for example) over the Arctic Ocean.
  22. antishefff
    antishefff 27 November 2020 17: 43
    +1
    For 10 years now, you can only hear how everything will fly, how everyone will figure out how to build, and as a result, Erdogan's son-in-law stopped sewing sheepskin coats and won in his mouth with his UAVs you know who.
  23. 501Legion
    501Legion 27 November 2020 17: 54
    +1
    Nice article thanks for reading
  24. Diverter
    Diverter 27 November 2020 20: 00
    0
    Well, sho say? It's bad that we are lagging behind. And no matter what industry or technology. And here is what we are trying to catch up
    it's good. UAVs need many and different and many
  25. bars1
    bars1 29 November 2020 18: 47
    0
    Quote: antishefff
    and won in your mouth with your UAVs you know who

    Pashinyan got it in his mouth. But Aliyev will soon regret that he has found Erdogan's "brother" when the latter will write him a "bill".
  26. Armen Sologyan
    Armen Sologyan 2 December 2020 16: 14
    0
    Disarmament of the Russian Federation is mortally dangerous for the Russian Federation. Therefore, every military novelty of the Russian Federation is like a balm for the soul for me. I am a fan of the Russian Federation and especially the Russians! May God grant all Russians who love Russia Creative Longevity, Health and inexhaustible strength. Yes Hello Russia, the country of the WORLD !!!
  27. Comrade Kim
    Comrade Kim 2 December 2020 20: 28
    0
    Quote: AVM
    there is an engine for it.

    And thank God.
    At least here you won't have to dodge or bow to the West.
  28. Ilya Goginashvili
    Ilya Goginashvili 25 December 2020 16: 07
    0
    Good article! Andrey, thanks! And you know, I read the entire discussion completely, to the end, and I can say: Guys! I'm proud of you! There are more smart thoughts and understanding people who worry about their country here than in the design bureau of some small plant. Good luck to all of us in the new year!
  29. Skifotavr
    Skifotavr 31 December 2020 01: 36
    0
    They made a plywood model, like two drops of water, similar to the XQ-58 Valkyrie, and presented it to the public. The question is: why?
  30. Tektor
    Tektor 25 January 2021 22: 29
    0
    Such Thunder is very much needed precisely as a pair for the Su-35. Thunder's specialization is stormtrooper. But no one will forbid him to act as a scout-gunner. The range of only 700 km is too short ...