Military Review

Germans in the mud

75

A photo showing a typical Schlammperiode transport arsenal: a slope road and a light horse carriage.


We have the opportunity to continue the theme of the relationship between the Wehrmacht and muddy roads. Since in the digitized archive of the TsAMO RF, several documents were discovered, dedicated specifically to the issue of measures to combat thaw, which were taken at the divisional level.

Impenetrability myths


In a previous article considered information about roads on the territory of the USSRthat were known to the Germans before the invasion. From the article it followed that the roads would be very bad and a significant part of the Wehrmacht, especially the infantry divisions, would have to operate in muddy conditions. In addition, the Germans had experience gained before the start of the war with the USSR in Poland. for the roads leading to the border established in 1939 were also bad. The Germans also had to carry out the transfer of troops to the Soviet border in the fall of 1940 and in the spring of 1941 in muddy conditions.

The myth that the German offensive was hampered by mud was and remains very tenacious and is often repeated. Although, even a general overview of the fighting shows that the thaw was not an obstacle for the German troops. They managed to carry out several offensive operations in the fall of 1941: the offensive on Tikhvin in October - November 1941, the offensive on Tula at the end of October 1941 (despite the heavy mud noted in the Army Group Center's combat log), when German troops week passed 139 km from Mtsensk to Tula. The attack on Kalinin (Tver), when the Germans passed 153 km from Rzhev to Torzhok. And to Kharkov and Donbass in October 1941, when the Germans passed from Zaporozhye to Horlivka 284 km.

By the beginning of 1942, German formations had already accumulated considerable experience in combating thaw. And on its basis, the orders gave specific instructions on what and how to do so that the muddy roads did not interfere with the hostilities. They had their own terms for muddy roads: Schlammperiode or Schlammzeit. They were preparing well in advance for this season.

Slush near Vyazma


The 3rd motorized division of the Germans in February 1942 defended in the area east of Vyazma and participated in repelling the Soviet offensive during the Rzhev-Vyazemsky operation. The command of the division was concerned with the problem of the coming muddy road at the end of February 1942, due to the fact that the deterioration of the road condition was to be expected from March 15.

On February 25, 1942, the division was ordered to take measures during the thaw. It explicitly states that these measures were developed based on the experience of the autumn thaw and inquiries of the local population. They included:

- clearing roads from snow,
- cleaning of ditches and drainage ditches,
- construction of a log deck on the road in swampy areas,
- preparation of boats and rafts when crossing streams,
- preparation of towing ropes,
- preparation of signs and signs prohibiting entry to the road for trucks and heavy horse carts.

There were quite long roads in the division's area of ​​responsibility. Of these, the main one: Vyazma - Shimonovo (about 140 km). Shimonovo was located 30 km southwest of Mozhaisk. And from this point several more roads diverged, leading to the front (TsAMO RF, f. 500, op. 12477, d. 66, l. 7-8).

Germans in the mud
General scheme of the front in 1942 in the sector of Army Group Center. In the middle, east of Vyazma, was the 3rd Motorized Division.

This order was issued on the basis of an order from the command of the 5th Army Corps issued on February 23, 1942 (the headquarters of the 3rd Motorized Division received it on February 26). And the order of the corps was based on the order for Army Group Center, concerning the Smolensk-Gzhatsk highway.
The instructions from the corps command boiled down to the following measures:

- a ban on leaving cars on the road, in order to avoid snow drifts,
- the introduction into force for the period of thaw on one-way roads "block systems",
- a ban on traffic during the thaw period of transport weighing more than 12 tons and a gauge of more than 2,05 meters,
- limiting the speed limit at 25 km per hour.


Order of the 5th Army Corps on measures for the period of thaw.

The "block system" meant limited traffic on the road. Cars were stopped at a certain point equipped with a parking lot. Then a column was formed from them, which followed through the section of the road. The columns alternated back and forth, depending on the needs for transportation and the urgency of the goods. Convoys with a limited number of trucks were less likely to crash the road. There were gaps in traffic when the road could be fixed. And also there were no traffic jams and accumulations.

Also, the corps command ordered the introduction on supply roads (in the 11th tank, 106th infantry, 5th tank, 3rd motorized and 20th tank divisions) transportation by light trucks and draft carts (TsAMO RF, f. 500, op. 12477, d. 66, sheets 9-10 ). Light sled carriages could travel everywhere, up to the forward positions. And for them all sorts of sledges or mud drags were provided, designed to deliver small loads. Light trucks could only move on paved roads or on a slope. The order contains a warning (TsAMO RF, f. 500, op. 12477, d. 66, l. 11):

"In general, attempts to carry out all transport with trucks runs the risk of further loss of trucks."


Many photographs illustrate the validity of this warning about the loss of trucks in muddy roads.

All this was accepted for execution. On February 27, 1942, an order was issued for the 3rd Motorized Division, in which the order of the corps was communicated to the subordinate regiments. At the disposal of the division was the Vyazma - Shimonovo - Isakovo supply road, on which the procedure for closing the road for vehicles for 5-8 days of maximum thaw was established. And also the closure of the road at noon on the following days (TsAMO RF, f. 500, op. 12477, d. 66, l. 5).


The location of the 3rd motorized division on the German map. Red dots mark the Vyazma - Isakovo road

These documents got to TsAMO in a roundabout way. The 3rd Motorized Division was transferred to Army Group South in the summer of 1942, attacked Stalingrad and was destroyed there. These notes about the muddy roads near Vyazma, obviously, come from the Stalingrad trophies.

When the mud is strong


Another example of German measures against muddy roads is the documents of the 466th Regiment of the 257th Infantry Division, drawn up at the moment when the division was defending the area around Barvenkovo. The order on instructions for the thaw period was issued on February 18, 1942 (and received by the regiment headquarters the next day). Shortly before that, during the Barvenkovo-Lozovskaya operation of the Southwestern and Southern fronts in January 1942, the Barvenkovo ​​ledge was formed. At the end of January 1942, the Soviet offensive stopped. But the fighting continued until the end of March, when a thaw began, delaying the fighting in the area until early May 1942. This is how the 257th Infantry Division prepared for this muddy road.

The order immediately warned that the thaw would be more severe, due to the abundant snowfall at the beginning of the year. Such that many areas and settlements will be cut off from transport for many weeks. The division headquarters suggested that the headquarters of the subordinate regiments be guided by the slogan "Hilf dir selbst!" (Help yourself).

Realizing that the mud will be strong (it will hinder the actions of the enemy), the command of the division ordered to take up the defense of the existing positions. Fortified defensive posts were built on various heights free from melt water.

They were supplied with supply roads along which light horse carts could move. Snow was removed from these roads, and then they were strengthened with brushwood fascines, perch and other materials at hand. If the road was flooded with melt water, then it was necessary to have at disposal signs and detour indicators. Before the thaw began, trucks and vehicles had to be driven to points with solid roads (to Slavyansk or Kramatorskaya). Their further use was supposed by special order.

In order for battalions and companies to be able to fight and move during a period of severe thaw, a recommendation was given to create columns of pack animals, as well as columns of carriers from the local population or prisoners of war. It was recommended for them to make drags and shoulder stretchers. For foot porters, trails were laid, reinforced with boards, slabs or poles.


Column of pack.

But even these methods did not make it possible to transfer large volumes of cargo to places where good, solid roads did not lead. For the fortified points in Mayaki, Glubokaya Makatykh and Pereletki, the command of the division decided to introduce a rate of ammunition supply. For example, 99 cartridges were relied on a carbine, 34 rounds of various types for MG 3 (the document indicated the quantity for each type), for a submachine gun - 450 rounds, for a 690-mm anti-tank gun - 37 rounds, for 250-mm anti-tank gun - 50 rounds and so on (TsAMO RF, f. 220, op. 500, d. 12477, l. 767-29). The food supply was carried out at the expense of the slaughter of livestock in fortified points and the baking of bread from imported flour. In general, the maximum savings in the work of transport in the period of strong thaw.

The German method of dealing with slabs


The German way of overcoming muddy roads, if you summarize all the methods described above, consisted of two parts.

First: dry the road as quickly as possible. To do this, it is necessary to remove the snow from it, since the melting snow will greatly wet the road. Further (already in the period of snow melting) it is required to deepen the ditches and dig drainage ditches so that the water drains off the roadway as quickly as possible. If these measures are implemented, then the movement will close for about a week or so.

Second: maximum economy of transport operation and limitation of vehicle traffic on soggy roads. In muddy roads, preference is given to light transport, both automobile and horse-drawn. Lightweight transport, which is less damaging to roads, allows transport to be maintained even during the peak of thaw.
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  1. serg.shishkov2015
    serg.shishkov2015 27 November 2020 06: 15
    +23
    The fact that the Wehrmacht was stopped ONLY by dirt and frost is a myth! These factors also influenced us! The Wehrmacht was stopped by our soldiers !! Eternal memory and eternal glory to the heroes!
    1. Proxima
      Proxima 27 November 2020 07: 21
      +13
      They also like to remember the "General Prostory", they say the large spaces of Russia helped us a lot. This is also a very slippery argument. With a potential front line of about 3000 km in front of it, the Wehrmacht could give itself a wide range of improvisation in the art of war and logistics. An example of this is the encirclement of five armies of the Kiev group. They could not destroy these armies and take Kiev in the "classical" way, and then they carried out a crazy logistically encirclement operation, in fact, with parts of the forces of Army Groups Center and South. And vice versa, in small Europe, we remember the First World War - the German attack on France through the Ardennes (and this is an intermediate capture of another state), in 1940 - again the Ardennes, in the counteroffensive of 1944 - 45 - again the Ardennes! Just a small space, it means a short front line, which can really be strengthened, for example, the Maginot Line. The Soviet Union simply did not have such an opportunity. So much for you fellow large spaces. request
      1. Svidetel 45
        Svidetel 45 27 November 2020 12: 49
        +8
        Namely, the higher saturation of the Wehrmacht with vehicles, better communications and reconnaissance, air supremacy further increased its advantages over the Red Army when conducting hostilities in a wide area, due to the rapid detection of weaknesses in the defense of the latter, maneuver, bypass defensive orders, strikes on rear communications. All this was much more difficult to do in a more limited space, where, with the same amount of forces, the defensive formations would be denser and the communication lines of supply shorter, so that large expanses did not play in the favor of our army.
        1. your1970
          your1970 1 December 2020 11: 40
          -2
          Quote: Svidetel 45
          that the vast expanses were by no means beneficial to our army.

          As well as for the benefit of the Wehrmacht ...
          It is enough to remember how many forces, means and resources were needed to protect their rear from the partisans
          Already about the crazy length of the shoulder of the delivery of everything and everything, I will not even remember. If we had to transport spare parts for tanks by airplanes ...

          Grandfather leaving the encirclement saw how the Germans did the road. The clay was poured over with water and then rolled with spiked rollers. Then they poured water again and rolled them with smooth rollers. After drying, it turned out to be almost asphalt
    2. EvilLion
      EvilLion 27 November 2020 09: 38
      +4
      How do you manage to speak with slogans like that?
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 27 November 2020 14: 55
        +2
        So after all, in the absence of presence, there remains only a "concussion of the air". request
      2. zenion
        zenion 2 December 2020 15: 19
        0
        If the mud did not help, then a castle would not be built there. The Germans also wanted to build a castle there, but they were ahead of them.
    3. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 27 November 2020 10: 09
      +6
      Quote: serg.shishkov2015
      The fact that the Wehrmacht was stopped ONLY by dirt and frost is a myth!

      no one claims it! There are a combination of factors, each of which played a role. It is enough to write myths and fight them heroically. The Red Army broke the back of the Wehrmacht - everything else is secondary
    4. Federal1
      Federal1 28 November 2020 21: 38
      -16%
      Yeah, stopped, stopped 8 to 1 in the war, the ratio of those killed in hostilities and 13 -1 in 1941, and so yes they stopped, you can even say it again, you have enough brains.
      1. Proxima
        Proxima 28 November 2020 22: 03
        +4
        Quote: Federal1
        Yeah, stopped, stopped 8 to 1 in the war, the ratio of those killed in hostilities and 13 -1 in 1941

        Bring links to this utter nonsense, although I guess what kind of "sources" ... You are not the first to voice this "statistics" ..
        1. Storm Uesugi
          Storm Uesugi 29 November 2020 04: 36
          -8
          enough interviews of veterans as they were sent to storm the machine-gun points in the forehead - how stupid it was and what were the losses.
          threefold "often they themselves got involved in order to curry favor not only the commanders, but the soldiers themselves," we don’t get in there, but he is "yes, but right now, that's all"
          or read the notes of the samokhodchik about how they collected various remains of tanks and sent them to slaughter after writing them off.
        2. Serg koma
          Serg koma 29 November 2020 04: 52
          +5
          Quote: Proxima
          Bring links to this utter nonsense, although I guess what kind of "sources" ... You are not the first to voice this "statistics" ..

          Came, registered, "spoiled the air", faded away - you will never wait for data confirmation from such "friends". A typical provocateur.
          1. Zug
            Zug 25 January 2021 21: 40
            0
            You will walk through the milestones of the war from the age of 41, including losses in the form of 6 million prisoners for almost the entire war.nu and count by years and operations on off.loss. Surprise a little, it turns out much more even based on MO data
    5. Zug
      Zug 25 January 2021 21: 35
      0
      Well, let's say they needed to drive as much as possible, and on the occupied territory when they could shoot in the back from the forest, do not compare the stock of 500 km and 70, for example, and on their territory. I personally translated the German divisions until December 41. full of reports about the difficulties of transportation and movement due to sudden frost and mud. I repeat, this is the original ZhBD.
  2. parusnik
    parusnik 27 November 2020 06: 19
    +1
    I would like to know who is the author or the collective of authors of the myth about the generals "Dirt" and "Rasputitsa"? I don’t know about the others, but “I want to see this person!” (C).
    1. NDR-791
      NDR-791 27 November 2020 07: 38
      +13
      You won't be able to see. Guderian. "Memories of a Soldier". There for the first time slipped about "General frost". A very convenient myth turned out to justify loved ones. Supported by all not finished off Europe. It was then that in perestroika they began to pour into our ears about the fact that we ourselves could not and did not want to fight. And if not for the frost and mud, then they would be drinking Bavarian.
      1. Gato
        Gato 28 November 2020 21: 44
        +8
        Guderian. "Memories of a Soldier". There for the first time slipped about "General frost".

        Much earlier!
        Three generals "Dirt", "Frost" and "Rasputitsa" were introduced into use by the French generals after 1812, and maybe the British - in 1812 the caricature "General Frost shaves little Boni" was published (Bonaparte)"This opinion was so widespread that Denis Vasilyevich Davydov in 1835 published an article" Did Frost Exterminate the French Army in 1812 "refuting this thesis. So the German generals were not the first in either raking lulls or inventing excuses laughing
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 27 November 2020 12: 05
      +10
      Quote: parusnik
      I would like to know who is the author or the collective of authors of the myth about the generals "Dirt" and "Rasputitsa"? I don’t know about the others, but “I want to see this person!” (C).

      German generals in their post-war memoirs. Since I did not want to write about my mistakes, and that the Russians also knew how to fight, too, I had to look for other explanations. So they found it - dirt, frost and a T-34. smile
      Here you read the German descriptions of the T-34 and our test documents / reviews from parts - as if two different tanks are being described. smile
    3. Zug
      Zug 25 January 2021 21: 42
      0
      Yes, I at least-After reading the ZHBD German division-off. Document by the way, there are a lot of reports to the operative staff about the difficulties and everything with which the bad weather is connected. Russian autumn and winter made a lot of hemorrhoids for them.
  3. aleks neym_2
    aleks neym_2 27 November 2020 07: 23
    +10
    Yes, the Germans were really bad at this trinity: generals "Frost", "Dirt" and "Rasputitsa" !!! But on the other side of the front, the Red Army rolled out along the "autobahns". Why not write with such hatred, just to humiliate the FEAT of the Soviet Warrior!
    1. Proxima
      Proxima 27 November 2020 07: 36
      +8
      The effect of a bad dancer has not yet been canceled. True, the dancer's excuses end on two reasons (one and the second egg), and the Wehrmacht has a lot of them! fellow
      1. aleks neym_2
        aleks neym_2 27 November 2020 21: 38
        0
        If we take into account the "dancer effect" then the Germans, like the "true" Aryans, had God knows how many of these, the very ones, that interfere.
        1. awdrgy
          awdrgy 28 November 2020 01: 46
          -3
          Again, the "Aryans" do not let someone sleep)))
    2. Serg koma
      Serg koma 29 November 2020 05: 20
      +4
      Quote: aleks neym_2
      generals "Frost", "Mud" and "Rasputitsa" !!!

      Arithmetic laughing "Dirt" = "Slush", therefore "Frost" and "Dirt" remain. Since dirt and frost are mutually exclusive concepts, the multiplication of frost by dirt will be = 0 wassat Here's what really influenced:
      Researcher Robert Kershaw argued that at this time (1941) a saying appeared in the Wehrmacht army: "Better three French campaigns than one Russian."
      Heinz Guderian
      The Russian soldier has always been distinguished by special persistence, firmness of character and great unpretentiousness. In the second world war, it became obvious that the Soviet high command also had high strategic abilities.

      Chief of Staff of the Wehrmacht 4 Army, General Gunter Blumentrit
      The behavior of the Russian troops, even in the first battles, was in striking contrast to the behavior of the Poles and Western allies in defeat. Even surrounded by the Russians, they continued stubborn battles. Where there were no roads, the Russians in most cases remained inaccessible. They always tried to break through to the east ... Our encirclement of Russians was rarely successful

      Field Marshal Kleist
      The Russians showed themselves as first-class warriors from the very beginning, and our successes in the first months of the war were simply due to better training. Having gained combat experience, they became first-class soldiers. They fought with exceptional tenacity, had amazing endurance ...

      Chief of Staff of the Luftwaffe Major General Hoffmann von Waldau
      The quality level of Soviet pilots is much higher than expected ... Fierce resistance, its massive nature does not correspond to our initial assumptions

      Josef Goebbels
      The stubbornness with which the Bolsheviks defended themselves in their pillboxes in Sevastopol is akin to some kind of animal instinct, and it would be a deep mistake to consider it the result of Bolshevik convictions or education. Russians have always been this way and will most likely always remain so

      Under the word "Russians" it would be wrong to understand precisely Russians by nationality, the fascists were broken by the Soviet people.
    3. Zug
      Zug 25 January 2021 21: 44
      0
      Our autobahns were, as it were, shorter, yes, it was hard, but the delivery in km was smaller and not across the occupied territory. They had to deliver everything for a longer time, and the partisans were already interfering with the boy, don't compare your finger with ...
      1. Lynx-z
        Lynx-z 16 February 2021 07: 28
        0
        the war goes on in the same weather conditions for both sides .. so the references to the weather are nonsense .. the resistance of the guerrillas? Wow! It was necessary to take into account when you go to a foreign country .. and the size of the country is not news .. there are maps .. you had to think where you are going .... the length of the transports is different? yes, it is different, but on the Soviet side, this length of the supply is clogged with vehicles carrying out the evacuation ... so ...
        1. Zug
          Zug 17 February 2021 21: 23
          0
          Well, about partisans, etc., this is already a controversy. And to transfer units across its territory to Moscow is not under 2 thousand kilometers to deal with logistics. Ours, like in the offensive, everyone nodded to the weather. And not until 45 were evacuated factories. If you hear, then both side. And that here is nonsense, but here it seems to work. What kind of throwing of the soul is that?
          1. Lynx-z
            Lynx-z 17 February 2021 22: 34
            0
            but only later did they find out about two thousand kilometers? did not know when they planned? what a surprise .. and when our people nodded about the weather?
            1. Zug
              Zug 18 February 2021 11: 13
              0
              Read more - strategic operations were thwarted by the weather
              1. Lynx-z
                Lynx-z 24 February 2021 12: 25
                0
                where is the whining about the weather? you do not confuse .. with a finger
              2. Lynx-z
                Lynx-z 24 February 2021 12: 26
                0
                the planning of operations always takes into account the weather conditions .. and if one side cites bad weather as the reason for the defeat, then they do not know how to plan
  4. Lynx2000
    Lynx2000 27 November 2020 08: 45
    +6
    The fact that the Germans and their allies were stopped near Moscow was not frost, mud and open spaces are explained by their (German command) orders and instructions on countermeasures in muddy roads and the operation of equipment and weapons at subzero temperatures.
    The enemy was skillful, experienced and cruel. Therefore, the Victory over him and its price should not be forgotten ...
    1. Zug
      Zug 25 January 2021 21: 53
      0
      Here I wonder how the Germans write about the muddy roads, they are not true, the scoundrels are lying. And how during our advances the bad weather completely disrupted the operations, they write easily, they say: Damn bad weather interferes, the airfields are limp, the supply of ammunition is impossible, just drag with your humps: Cars along the cabins They go into the mud. It turns out cunning. The Germans lie about the dirt, we are NOT .. Some kind of double standards, and our soldiers froze to death even in the frost in the trenches, the Germans could not freeze, they have all the rules
      1. Lynx-z
        Lynx-z 16 February 2021 07: 32
        0
        Here I wonder how the Germans write about the muddy roads, they are not true, the scoundrels are lying. And how during our advances the bad weather completely disrupted the operations, they write easily, they say: Damn bad weather interferes, the airfields are limp, the supply of ammunition is impossible, just drag with your humps: Cars along the cabins they leave in the mud. It turns out cunning. The Germans lie about the dirt, we are NOT.

        the war is going on in the same conditions and the weather prevents both sides .. but the result is important .. the result is the defeat of the united Europe from the USSR and references to the weather that influenced this result are inappropriate
        1. Zug
          Zug 17 February 2021 21: 20
          0
          Are our references to the weather appropriate? And what kind of united Europe is there? Who united it? What are you talking nonsense then all out loud? Italy, Romania and Hungary with Finland are not all of Europe at once.
          1. Lynx-z
            Lynx-z 17 February 2021 22: 32
            0
            you have forgotten the Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Slovakia, Sweden, Spain .. and others who actively helped
            What do you call weather references?
            1. Zug
              Zug 18 February 2021 11: 19
              0
              Duck helped - or united? Spain with its "blue" division? There are troops with the world on a string, on the scale of the fronts, this is a drop in the sea. The French, having raked in December 41, "dropped out" ahead of schedule from the competition. Of all countries, only Hungary, Finland, Romania are the supplier of manpower. exceeded 1.5 million people. Again, all strategically important operations and tasks were solved by the Germans! The Finns (about 500 thousand plus or minus) generally sat in place from the end of 41 until the age of 44 without conducting any strategic operations. And no one united Europe with treaties. And at least some help was provided to us. The same trucks were delivered about 500 thousand. And the Germans fought not only in the east. They had more than ours on the front. So, for example. Only submarines of all series were built by the Germans over 1200 units !!! Think about it
              1. Lynx-z
                Lynx-z 24 February 2021 12: 24
                0
                what a mess in your head ...
                what does the truck and the weather have to do with it?)
                1. Zug
                  Zug 24 February 2021 21: 47
                  0
                  What does "united Europe" have to do with it - and again: Who united it? You invented it yourself (for the most part), and believed it yourself. We had a united coalition. USA. Britain, Canada, Well, etc. What do not you write about them? They seem to have fought with the Germans too. An example of help? And please: According to the results of the Battle of Britain, the Germans were missing about 2500 thousand crew members of the Luftwaffe. This is help, so, in advance. From 7 air squadrons to the west from the eastern front, 3 were withdrawn. -Air defense of aviation was concentrated only on the territory of Germany to repel the attacks of the strategists of the "united forces" of the allies. Why not help?
                  1. Lynx-z
                    Lynx-z 26 February 2021 11: 05
                    0
                    despite the fact that all the "occupied" countries willingly helped the Nazis .. the entire industry of Europe worked for the Reich .. and even countries that were not occupied willingly traded with the Nazis .. Sweden and Switzerland
  5. 210ox
    210ox 27 November 2020 09: 06
    +11
    Eh, the Author. The German method of dealing with muddy roads ... Mom was in the occupation in the Smolensk region, she told ... They drove them out to drive the road, there were still prisoners.
  6. geologist
    geologist 27 November 2020 09: 22
    +7
    "The thunderstorm of the twelfth year has come, who then helped? The frenzy of the people, Barclay, winter or a Russian god?" ...
    And also the "Siberian divisions", invented by Guderian for self-justification, which drove the Berlin elite motorized infantry through the deep snows of Ryazan.
  7. BAI
    BAI 27 November 2020 09: 26
    0
    All this was accepted for execution. February 27, 1942 came out the order for the 3rd motorized division, in which the order of the corps was communicated to the subordinate regiments. The division had at its disposal the Vyazma - Shimonovo - Isakovo supply road, which established the procedure for closing the road for vehicles for 5-8 days of maximum thaw.

    On February 27 all roads were frozen and there was no muddy road anymore!
    1. Gvardeetz77
      Gvardeetz77 27 November 2020 11: 51
      +6
      On February 27, yes, it hasn't happened yet, but after February it is March, from the second half of which there is a high probability. So they began to prepare for it ahead of time, and not after the roast rooster bites (the author indicated this). Or did you wait for orders to combat the muddy road after it started?
    2. Zug
      Zug 25 January 2021 21: 49
      0
      Duck blizzard and heavy snowfalls not muddy?
  8. Glory1974
    Glory1974 27 November 2020 10: 12
    0
    first it says the dirt didn't get in the way:
    The myth that the German offensive was hampered by mud was and remains very tenacious and is often repeated.

    but still they had to fight with it:
    By the beginning of 1942, German formations had already accumulated considerable experience in combating thaw.

    but the struggle didn't help:
    But even these methods did not make it possible to transfer large volumes of cargo to where good, solid roads did not lead.

    Conclusion: the Wehrmacht was struggling with muddy roads, so what? Defeated her or not?
    Personally, I did not see the answers to the questions posed in the article.
    Was it muddy? Of course she interfered! Both to us and to the Germans.
    Frost in the way? Of course he interfered! Both to us and to the Germans!
    And what are the conclusions?
    Well, for example, that our uniform and equipment were an order of magnitude better than the German. Woolen coats and felt boots are much better than the Wehrmacht's paper overcoats, insulated with straw and women's shawls.
    In general, the topic has not been disclosed.
  9. Undecim
    Undecim 27 November 2020 10: 32
    +11
    The author got completely confused in his own verbal balancing act.
    Beginning of the article: "The myth that the German offensive was hampered by mud was and remains very tenacious and is often repeated."
    End of article: "At the end of January 1942, the Soviet offensive stopped. But fighting continued until the end of March, when a thaw began, delaying the fighting in the area until early May 1942."
    "But even these methods did not make it possible to transfer large volumes of cargo to where good, solid roads did not lead. For fortified points in Mayaki, Glubokaya Makatykh and Perepletki, the division command went to introduce a standard for the supply of ammunition. For example, relied on a carbine 99 rounds, for MG 34 - 3 rounds of various types (the document indicated the quantity for each type), for a submachine gun - 450 rounds, for a 690-mm anti-tank gun - 37 rounds, for a 250-mm anti-tank gun - 50 rounds and etc"
    That is, based on the author's presentation, the dirt really interfered, but this is a myth.
    Maybe you shouldn't engage in verbiage, inventing myths and trying to refute them, but objectively, on the basis of archival documents, talk about how and in what conditions the soldiers of the Red Army fought for their homeland in the Great Patriotic War?
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 27 November 2020 14: 53
      +3
      So it’s already told. A year and a half ago, the resource published the materials of E. Fedorov on the road construction of the Red Army during the war.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 27 November 2020 15: 04
        +3
        Road construction is not everything. This is not a plowed field for creativity. About military geographers, about military topographers, about mapping and geodesy during the Great Patriotic War.
        Here they like to remember Suvorov and his aphorisms. In particular, about the ravines. But they had to be found and mapped.
        Instead, the same themes are chewed over and over again. Already a whole branch of parasites on history has grown, which myths themselves create and immediately refute them. Like today's author. I climbed into the archive, and saw a fig there.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 27 November 2020 15: 16
          +6
          In Verkhoturov's work, I am impressed by the fact that the author is not lazy to translate from German. The German military office of the middle of the last century, that still "adventure".
          1. Undecim
            Undecim 27 November 2020 15: 31
            +1
            You know, the current possibilities allow you to cope with the German clerical, if you are guided in the matter. And even with Japanese. Checked.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 27 November 2020 15: 52
              +3
              It is, of course, so, but I really want to believe that the author himself translated the documents given in the articles.
            2. Alf
              Alf 27 November 2020 19: 38
              -1
              Quote: Undecim
              the current possibilities allow you to cope with the German clerical, if you are guided in the issue.

              Classic - A naked conductor climbs under the trolley.
          2. Zug
            Zug 25 January 2021 21: 54
            +1
            I agree - it is very difficult to translate, especially since photocopies of the originals are often bad
  10. TermNachTer
    TermNachTer 27 November 2020 13: 30
    0
    The author somehow forgot to mention that the winter of 41 was early and cold. In the second half of October, near Moscow, there were already frosts and there was no thaw.
    1. Zug
      Zug 25 January 2021 21: 56
      0
      But there were snowfalls - this is also a thaw. What is noted in it. Magazines. And not once, there are problems: In the evening the road is normal, in the morning it was covered with snow for the night, everything. The Germans cannot deliver Nachschub To the mobile forward units. They cannot I read it myself. It's good that they took rich spoils of war. Gasoil, etc.
      1. TermNachTer
        TermNachTer 25 January 2021 22: 55
        0
        Deep snow or impassable mud? We must call a spade a spade. Otherwise it will happen again - General Frost, Colonel Rasputitsa, Major Chernozem)))
        1. Zug
          Zug 26 January 2021 09: 06
          0
          We had the same thing in our offensives. We also complained all the time.
          1. TermNachTer
            TermNachTer 26 January 2021 10: 25
            0
            Which of the Soviet generals, in his memoirs, complained that he lost the Second World War because of the dirt?))))
            1. Zug
              Zug 26 January 2021 18: 47
              0
              Yes, yes, the war ended in Berlin and the rest is idle talk. Why then do you let mud and frost like heresy, like the Germans, get in the way, almost didn’t interfere. But about how strategic operations were thwarted by us, we somehow modestly keep silent. I think that's right. Because all the Soviet generals that complained about the mud, the muddy airfields and the fierce cold simply justify their impotence as military commanders. I personally believe that no dirt in our army was an obstacle, it was just necessary to mow something. I would go forward calmly in mud and cold and frost and that the Germans passed in 4 months, I personally would take no more than 2.5 years ago, and in 6 months I would be at the western new borders. per day exceeded similar in France.It's not strange. Here's sho I bachu
              1. TermNachTer
                TermNachTer 26 January 2021 19: 07
                0
                And the Germans did not lose anything? Are they all in chocolate?))) Who won is right. Everything else, talk in favor of the poor, as the unforgettable Ostap Ibrahimovich used to say)))
                1. Zug
                  Zug 26 January 2021 19: 16
                  0
                  That's right, it was frustrated! And "talk for the poor" is the lot of fools, to think so and consider that the history of the entire Second World War is limited - We won? . Why study? We were in Berlin and not vice versa.
  11. Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 27 November 2020 17: 22
    +2
    Well, of course, impassability is a myth, our roads were magnificent, the Germans simply did not find them, just as ours did not find them.
    1. awdrgy
      awdrgy 28 November 2020 01: 49
      0
      So they also had these flying saucers))) Why do they care?
      1. agond
        agond 28 November 2020 10: 55
        +2
        It turns out how simple it is, cleared the dirt road in the spring from snow, the road and take it and dry it earlier, and our road services still do not have the habit of shoveling the snow away in winter, or removing dirt and sand from the side roads of secondary roads, which is sprinkled with this the earth accumulates from year to year for decades, so puddles on the sides of the road are frequent in summer, and digging ditches along the roads is generally a secret technology not available to our road builders. , but every year they are engaged in patching the cracks with asphalt putty
        1. awdrgy
          awdrgy 28 November 2020 23: 22
          0
          Everything just pay people fine and it will be buzzing When all the bosses are trying to steal and steal and the whole system is like that, everywhere the imperfections are all not happy with the injustice and work poorly There is no quality of life in everything that you take and the eye is not happy Sometimes I think that at the expense of our country half the world lives by cunning shenanigans because there is no other way to explain where all its resources go and why there is always no money what to make normal wages One theft on the ground cannot explain this because the houses of the apartment are steep cars, their cost is not so high, but on gold especially no one drives cars (what is really worth something) So the main flow of dough (resources) goes outside and the one who tries to interrupt it will get the war He himself did not expect such a conclusion (directly according to Conan Doyle)
    2. TermNachTer
      TermNachTer 26 January 2021 10: 27
      0
      And when the Berlin strategists began to paint "Barbarossa", they did not know that the roads in the USSR were slightly different from European ones?))) In general, it is not clear what tens of generals and hundreds of colonels were doing in the German General Staff?))))
  12. alekswolf63
    alekswolf63 1 December 2020 11: 54
    0
    The Germans had more than 3 mil. It was weak to send a certain number of prisoners of war to the construction of roads, and not to starve and shoot them. Building mechanisms were captured if they were going to annex the territory to use the captured resources there was no sense. We are all strong in hindsight.
    1. Zug
      Zug 25 January 2021 21: 57
      0
      Who will accompany them? Guard? What to feed? To put on? They didn’t even have enough resources for protection. Hundreds of thousands to guard and accompany
      1. alekswolf63
        alekswolf63 2 February 2021 15: 40
        0
        Repairing cars and tanks was more expensive, real fighters were rarely captured, among them you can find foremen, they would send prisoners to production and agriculture. It was summer and autumn too, the harvesting was poorly organized, there were so many villagers. If not for the plan to destroy the Slavs, everything would have turned out differently. If 30-50 tanks pass along a road with any quality surface, any road will need repair. Just don't talk about Karbyshev, Devyatayev was a minority, they did not surrender, they were taken wounded or in a situation of hopelessness. Those who did not want to be captured, left the encirclement or partisan.
  13. zenion
    zenion 2 December 2020 15: 11
    +1
    The Red Army always walked along asphalt roads, which, after the last Soviet soldier passed, immediately turned into a crucifix. Not only did she resist the aisle, but she also grabbed the German wheels in a vice, preventing these wheels from breaking out of their grip. It was Comrade Stalin who gave this order to the Land of Soviets to help socialism against imperialism. It was still okay, but it was scary to move through the woods. The Soviet people placed swamps in the forests, and in them wolf pits that sucked in and ate up German equipment, they especially liked tigers. The filling of the tigers was very appetite for the pits. When the Red Army approached such swamps, so immediately through the swamp there was a cliff, for a better passage of Soviet equipment. How could the super-imperialists fight the very planet for which they were repulsive.
    1. Zug
      Zug 25 January 2021 21: 59
      0
      That’s a difficult path. And they reached Moscow along such routes in 4 months. Up to 100 km per day moved. And imagine the roads would have been good? Or Hitler didn’t flop to Yugoslavia?
      1. zenion
        zenion 25 January 2021 22: 11
        0
        And where did the Nazis advance. I watched football and the commentator said that victory depends on who scored the first goal. All this team won. And it ended up with the only goal, and those who, according to the idea, should have won, received four goals in return. They sat down on the grass and wept. Wherever Hitler went, the USSR laid him in his grave.
        1. Zug
          Zug 25 January 2021 22: 16
          0
          This is not about that. The whole history of the war, in this case, pedolate with the words: Where did the war end? Why know the history of the war? Why did the Germans walk to Moscow in 4 months and drove them out for more than 2 and a half years? Tufta. The war ended in Berlin. next time it may not end
  14. Lesnik982
    Lesnik982 28 January 2021 20: 51
    0
    There is another interesting aspect here: how effective was the execution of orders and instructions for dealing with muddy roads. We conquered the muddy road and "had a circular from the headquarters on how to defeat the muddy road" - these are two things that do not necessarily coincide. Very often, the abundance of orders on some problem speaks precisely of its poor solvability.