Military Review

"Stupid, but brave": continued absentee dispute of experts about Soviet pilots and aviation losses during the war

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The network continued an absentee dispute between popular video bloggers specializing in coverage of the Great Patriotic War. This is an absentee dispute between Sky Artist and TacticMedia, one of whom believes that the other is fundamentally wrong in his estimates of the losses of the Soviet aviation and the Luftwaffe.


The first part describing the claims of Vladimir Potapov against Mikhail Timin has already published on VO... But Vladimir Potapov decided not to limit himself to one part. He prepared the second part, in which he says that expert Timin not only underestimated the number of losses of Nazi aircraft during the Great Patriotic War, but also significantly overestimated Soviet losses.

From the material of a professional pilot:

And then it turns out that "they threw corpses at the enemy's air trenches."

The Sky Artist blog provides data from the General Staff of the USSR Armed Forces, which indicates that the combat losses of the aircraft were about 45 thousand, while the "opponent" claims 50-55 thousand.

It is also pointed out that if we follow Mikhail Timin's “concept” when analyzing the ratio of Soviet and German air losses, it turns out that Soviet pilots were such “stupid, stupid, but brave”. On the one hand, they "suffered huge losses, but on the whole we should be proud."

In general, bloggers' approaches to coverage of a topic are completely different.

The video provides an extensive analysis of combat and non-combat losses of aircraft, their resource, operating features:

123 comments
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  1. antivirus
    antivirus 24 November 2020 15: 14
    +4
    about writers - any aunt when she leaves for circulation (by age, wrinkles on the opera) in certain circles becomes a "blogger", a writer "," a model ", etc.

    and here - the same.
    1. Zug
      Zug 24 November 2020 16: 15
      +4
      Tymin is a historian, he doesn't get out of the archives.
      1. Orel
        Orel 24 November 2020 16: 30
        -3
        Quote: Zug
        Tymin is a historian, he doesn't get out of the archives.


        The facts are not always pleasant, so people may not like them. Many archives are still classified, especially from the pre-war period, and it is understandable why. There will be documents on cooperation between the USSR and Germany. These documents are unlikely to be handy given the current public perception of World War II. They say that the war does not end until the last soldier is buried, I would add: until the last archive document is declassified.
        1. Reserve buildbat
          Reserve buildbat 25 November 2020 18: 31
          +1
          I strongly support! Until EVERY document is declassified, first of all of those that are "inconvenient" - cooperation between socialist organizations, Britain, France, Poland with Germany, the formation and support of German National Socialism by American and other financiers, the amount of assistance provided to Germany in the fight against THE USSR.
          Then we'll see in whose capital the final point should be made.
          1. The eye of the crying
            The eye of the crying 26 November 2020 00: 01
            +1
            Quote: Stroibat stock
            Then we'll see in whose capital we need to put the final point


            Will this somehow affect the ratio of losses between the German and Soviet air forces?
            1. Reserve buildbat
              Reserve buildbat 26 November 2020 07: 31
              +1
              It may well. After all, for some reason everyone considers the total losses of the USSR, taking into account civilians, but only those killed on the front line are counted from Germany, even without taking into account those who died from wounds in hospitals. In addition, let me remind you that not only Germany fought against the USSR, but the entire gay union with additives. So the question of losses for the Nazis is also open
        2. EvilLion
          EvilLion 26 November 2020 08: 30
          -2
          I understand that there are problems with the perception of reality, but:
          1) The USSR had every right to cooperate with Germany if it was beneficial to it. For example, I took a loan from Germany in the 39th, and did not return it. And he observed diplomatic etiquette, since he was obliged to do this, and then strange people talk about some joint parades. To begin with, we would study how different ceremonies of transferring cities are traditionally held.
          2) Cooperation with Germany was curtailed after 1933, and before that, the Weimar Republic was quite a decent state, and in general "the Germans were treated too harshly after WWI."
        3. Illanatol
          Illanatol 17 January 2021 10: 12
          0
          Blah blah blah ... the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact ... the Poles were shot in Katyn ... the German women were raped ..

          For a start, maybe our "Western partners" will open their archives? There are, I'm sure, a lot of interesting things. But hardly.
      2. antivirus
        antivirus 24 November 2020 16: 33
        -12%
        let everyone sit in the archives
        I will add, the losses from the less organized side (USSR) should have been greater (both in defense and offensive) than in Germany.
        it has always been known: we have won against.
        by the end of the war, they "made up" for the failures of 41-42.
        the reasons for high losses and overcoming the negative dynamics of 41-42 should be known.

        !!! the level of development of productive forces and production relations NO ONE CANCEL.
        the Germans were more organized 80 years ago and it remains so.
        only a small "but" - they were forbidden to be able to fight. and their diplomats to sort out troubles.
        let them do Mercians and VVagena. they are cabbies.

        !!! for everything sealed with blood - this world-historical significance of the Victory of the USSR (and in the organization of the army) in the Great Patriotic War must be preserved !!!!!!!
        1. meandr51
          meandr51 24 November 2020 17: 42
          +11
          An unsubstantiated slander against the Soviet Army. Arguments like "it was always known" are suitable only for schoolchildren. Discipline in the Soviet Army in the second half of the war was significantly higher than in the Wehrmacht. In the air force, this was particularly evident. If the German pilots are
          the unfulfilled task was practically not punished, which they brazenly used, considering their lives to be the lives of soldiers and officers of the ground forces or the covered strike vehicles, then Soviet pilots were regularly brought to trial for such tricks. That had a very positive effect on the results of the battles. They helped infantry and tanks, infantry with tanks helped them, capturing enemy airfields right with equipment. This is much more expedient than raising bloated "sports" accounts.
          As for the combat losses, by 43 the tactical skills of the parties were equal, since the trained Germans were knocked out, and the cadets on both sides fought on equal terms. The turning point - air battles in the Kuban. There were much more of our newcomers, therefore, more survived, passing on experience. By 1944, the level of skill and performance of Soviet falcons had significantly exceeded the level of the Germans.
          As for the "level of organization", in war it differs sharply from a peaceful life and strongly depends on physical and moral endurance. Soviet troops far surpassed the Wehrmacht in terms of organization and self-organization (in the absence of a command). This is widely known. Otherwise, the victory would have been for the Germans.
          1. antivirus
            antivirus 24 November 2020 19: 45
            -11%
            they were losing until the breaking point at the end of 42g.
            To praise the bast shoes RI or the USSR is ridiculous.
            The level of the army and navy comes from the teachers of rural schools - how they will invest knowledge and love for the Motherland, in a thrifty attitude towards property and weapons.
            The process of transition to an "active citizenship" is not over yet. isolationism is very strong in Russia (its own cucumbers, apples, moonshine, etc.). my hut is on the edge.
            The huge role of the VKPb-CPSU in the promotion and sorting of personnel for priority areas of development, the life of the country.
            and not 100% Zhukov-Rokosovsky's merit in Victory.
            ... failure at the beginning to 42 years - from the need to develop MTS-collective farms, heavy industrial, rural schools
            how they got it - everything and everyone was sent to the Army.
            an example of a distraction: only in the 90s they began to massively change the wooden poles of power lines for reinforced concrete, including 380V to the villages, but the nuclear submarine was massively built (each pulled 100 schools).
            priorities ....
            1. Valerikk
              Valerikk 25 November 2020 09: 35
              +1
              failure at the beginning to 42 years - from the need to develop MTS-collective farms, heavy industrial, rural schools
              how they got it - everything and everyone was sent to the Army.
              Here I, to be honest, did not understand anything at all.
              1. antivirus
                antivirus 25 November 2020 10: 05
                -5
                do not understand, but you need to know - "the army and the navy ate all the resources" not in the sense of all the sausage. footcloths, I20-metal-wood-brick, AND THE MOST LITERATE-EDUCATED-MOTIVATED (right now they will say) she took into herself IN DAMAGE TO SCHOOLS-SANITARY-PLANTER-ASSEMBLERS AZLK-ZIL-GAS AND TP ETC.
                Peaceful branches of the economy received less personnel for accelerated development - to catch up and overtake the Western countries. the reason for the collapse of the USSR.
                And now it is the same - there is investment attractiveness, but there is no GDP growth.
                Not clear to all managers.
                But one should know that growth-development is not so much the arithmetic of numbers as the creativity of a thinking person, looking for a new, better.
                therefore, the general mobilization of the VKPb and the IVS was not announced - they were afraid to bleed the people's farm.
                1. Valerikk
                  Valerikk 26 November 2020 14: 15
                  0
                  Hard delirium
                  1. antivirus
                    antivirus 26 November 2020 17: 24
                    -1
                    the main thing is that everyone sees that "sashelik" is right, and I will interrupt with "being right"
            2. Illanatol
              Illanatol 17 January 2021 10: 18
              -1
              Why is it funny? If the "bast shoes" have coped where the European "democrats", whom Hitler bent at once, have completely screwed up.
              If they had not built a nuclear submarine (each pulled not for 100 schools, but for 1000, at least) there would be no schools or power lines. There would be a radioactive desert as the "final solution to the Russian question."
          2. Zug
            Zug 25 November 2020 08: 37
            0
            In 43, from 7 squadrons on the eastern front, the Germans brought three squadrons to the west. Four on the eastern front were enough. During the battle for the Kuban, the Germans managed to "land" our air army. There was no turning point in the battle for the Kuban. The battles were heavy and bloody.
            1. Illanatol
              Illanatol 17 January 2021 10: 22
              0
              After that, having such a powerful air support, the mounted SS men reached the Urals :)))
              Oh well...
              Apparently, four squadrons were still missing, if by May 45 there were more than 30 thousand combat aircraft in the Soviet Air Force, from the Luftwaffe - horns and legs ...
              1. Zug
                Zug 18 January 2021 11: 29
                0
                Only the Luftwaffe kept the air defense aviation in Germany up to 50 percent to repel bomber attacks. And they flew in Italy, in Africa, France. While they were busy with us in the "sandbox" in the west, they had to fly over the Atlantic. compare their scale and ours. Do not forget about the battle for England, after which the Germans were less than two and a half thousand crew members. And in France they lost a lot by the way.
      3. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk 24 November 2020 16: 47
        +9
        Quote: Zug
        Tymin is a historian, he doesn't get out of the archives.

        Dear, to be a historian is not enough to sit in the archives. You also need to be able to analyze the information received in the archives.
        1. Zug
          Zug 24 November 2020 17: 29
          +1
          He has been specializing in aviation for 15 years. I somehow believe in his analyzes more.
          1. Oprichnik
            Oprichnik 24 November 2020 22: 09
            +4
            You can believe in God, etc., but it's better to KNOW!
            1. Zug
              Zug 25 November 2020 08: 27
              -3
              Duck, find out and tell. And so on vidio balabol that he did not sit in the archives for a day, did not study paper carries heresy, moreover, poorly put to speech
            2. Hagen
              Hagen 25 November 2020 12: 09
              +1
              Quote: Oprichnik
              You can believe in God, etc., but it's better to KNOW!

              That's right! I, too, prefer to know more than to believe .... However, history is not a linear thing. And even if you live in the archive until your deepest retirement, you are not sure that you will know everything thoroughly. Therefore, in these disputes about losses, I will not support either side. Despite the fact that from the point of view of soundness of thought, Timin appeals to me more. It is possible to disagree with the specific figures, but the fact that, for example, the losses of the IL-2 from the technical condition of the machine, defects and manufacturing defects make up almost a third of the total production of these machines is available not only to Timin, but also to other researchers, for example, Oleg Rastrenin ... The level of training of the flight personnel is demonstrated in the memoirs of the big bosses of the NKAP, who described how, when transferring new technology, they almost cried from the 3-7 hour flight of the future owners of this technology. At the same time, the enemy's training was an order of magnitude greater only in the training raid, not counting the subsequent training in spare parts. Many have written about the "literacy" of the staff. And the same Pokryshkin lamented that the first plane himself shot down his own, and the ground services managed to bend the stabilizers on the RSax, not understanding what this could lead to. A little off topic, but also remember the mention of how some tankers in 1941 destroyed the T-34, refueling it with gasoline. Well, such was the educational level of the population of the USSR at that time that with 4 classes of education + half-year courses it was possible to become a commander of an artillery battery, like my grandfather. And therefore it is not surprising that in preparation for the Kursk Bulge, the "early" battalion commanders prepared installations for standard missions for up to 40 minutes. Indeed, the level of literacy, both general and technological, in the USSR was significantly lower than in Germany. And Timin is right that this only underlines the scale and greatness of the Victory in 1945. And at the same time, we must understand today that preparations for war, carried out in advance, will largely affect the level of losses in real hostilities. And as they say, Si vis pacem, para bellum. History must teach, and we must learn from it. And here it is not very important what the ratio of losses was - 10 to 1 or 8,5 to 1. It is important that we have significantly more of them, and it is important to understand why this happened.
        2. nnm
          nnm 24 November 2020 17: 30
          0
          Will you show the class, colleague?
          1. Zug
            Zug 25 November 2020 08: 41
            +1
            Well, sit for more than 12 years in the archives, rummage through the papers, or let the opponent cut the uterus in the video, let him train there every day and sit there for half a day. Analyze, work, and we will listen to you. Or as a specialist in Kursk Gorbach, what about days and on the faces of the battle, he counts losses for years, work hard (by the way, Gorbach also repeats the same figures) And tell us how to count
            1. nnm
              nnm 25 November 2020 14: 35
              +2
              Could you tell me how many years you spent in the archives for such judgments?
              1. Zug
                Zug 25 November 2020 19: 29
                0
                How long are you and your narrator so that I believe him?
            2. Igoresha
              Igoresha 26 November 2020 09: 00
              -2
              Or as a specialist in Kursk
              or Zamulin, who was kicked out of the museum he headed earlier
              1. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 26 November 2020 12: 55
                +1
                Quote: Igoresha
                or Zamulin, who was kicked out of the museum he headed earlier

                Yeah ... moreover, everything was officially formalized decently: they were dismissed due to reduction, in connection with the abolition of the position of deputy director for scientific work in the museum. One and only position in the museum.
                Well, the actual reason for the dismissal was voiced by Isaev - for an unabashed mindset:
                For their books. Firstly, from the very beginning, he became an eyesore. I did not go to the offices "Vash Valerka is beating his forehead ...." so that he could be published from afar under the auspices of local leaders, and he was published in Moscow. Secondly, the very orientation of the books ("there were no 1200 tanks on the Prokhorovskoye field") displeased the local leadership. It got to insanity with the purchase of his books in the region. So that people don't read.

                I, of course, have only the point of view of one side. I have not seen the director of the museum. The essence is as follows:
                1) The publication of the book (already the first) gave rise to a certain tension in relations between V.N. and the director. But nothing more.
                2) This summer, Zamulin gave an interview to a local duroskop and this interview was seen by NI Ryzhkov (yes, yes, a "crying Bolshevik", he is still alive and a member of the Federation Council). The content of the interview - “there were no 1200 tanks” - angered Ryzhkov and demanded that measures be taken.
                3) In the process of dismissal, Zamulin was clearly told, in direct text to his eyes, that the reason was his writing.
                But I do not have dictaphone records and therefore this is only a version. Pretty logical IMHO. It is clear that the interview could have been about "cogs" (tm).
        3. ccsr
          ccsr 24 November 2020 19: 48
          +4
          Quote: Krasnoyarsk
          You also need to be able to analyze the information received in the archives.

          Absolutely. But not everyone knows about this, which is why the word "archive" magically affects them.
      4. Sling cutter
        Sling cutter 24 November 2020 17: 16
        +6
        Quote: Zug
        Tymin is a historian, he doesn't get out of the archives.

        Archival data can be interpreted in different ways.
        1. Zug
          Zug 24 November 2020 17: 35
          +1
          And it is not even necessary to interpret. At the end of the years, a German pilot has under 400 hours of flight time. Plus, on the spot in the regiment, pumping experience. We have on average 25 to 50. more perfect. Who will be the winner by definition? Given the experience of the enormous PMA? 50 hours against 400 does not roll to love. Whatever our pilot does. For experience, you can read the interviews of veteran pilots. The staff question is the number of flying hours after graduation (Some flight books are already taken out) And the number of shooting. The answer is one-about 50 hours plus minus
          1. Sling cutter
            Sling cutter 24 November 2020 18: 00
            +1
            Quote: Zug
            50 hours against 400 does not roll to anybody. Whatever our pilot does. For experience, you can read interviews of veteran pilots. The staff question is the number of flying hours at the end of the school (Some flight books are already taken out) And the number of firing. The answer is one-about 50 hours plus minus

            Thrifty cited data on the losses of the flight personnel and it turns out that the Red Army lost 23 thousand less pilots than the Germans. Is this from poor training?
            1. Zug
              Zug 24 November 2020 18: 01
              -1
              On the eastern front? Of course that's good. Too bad it's not true.
              1. Sling cutter
                Sling cutter 24 November 2020 18: 50
                +1
                Quote: Zug
                On the eastern front? Of course that's good. Too bad it's not true.

                Provide your details.
                1. Zug
                  Zug 24 November 2020 18: 53
                  -9
                  My data is paid
                  1. Sling cutter
                    Sling cutter 24 November 2020 19: 02
                    +2
                    Quote: Zug
                    My data is paid

                    Are you talking about analyzes? belay
                    1. Zug
                      Zug 25 November 2020 08: 30
                      -4
                      Well, if you want, buy my tests as well
                  2. nedgen
                    nedgen 17 January 2021 01: 43
                    0
                    My data is paid

                    Of course, my data is also paid wink
            2. bubalik
              bubalik 24 November 2020 21: 56
              +2
              Germans: Is it from poor preparation?
              ,,, how to know request In 1944, the Red Army aviation lost more aircraft during non-combat operations than in combat. Either the Germans were not bad, or the aircraft in the Red Army became tricky.
              1. Sling cutter
                Sling cutter 24 November 2020 22: 04
                +3
                Quote: bubalik
                In 1944, the Red Army aviation lost more aircraft during non-combat operations than in combat. Either the Germans were not bad, or the aircraft in the Red Army became tricky.

                Colleague, confirm your thoughts with data on combat and non-combat losses of the Red Army aviation. This time, and the second introduction of new technology into the troops, subject to a war for survival, does not entail technical problems? Or do you want to say that Soviet aircraft technology lost the war in the air?
                1. bubalik
                  bubalik 24 November 2020 23: 40
                  0
                  ,,, to be honest, camarado, to look for laziness. sad You can think that I am lying. crying but losses from non-combat, in our army, were huge.
                  1. Sling cutter
                    Sling cutter 25 November 2020 01: 34
                    +2
                    Quote: bubalik
                    ,,, to be honest, camarado, to look for laziness. You can think that I am lying. but losses from non-combat, in our army, were huge.

                    Well, once, you campradores are lazy, so I'm even more lazy, have a conscience soldier
              2. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 26 November 2020 13: 12
                0
                Quote: bubalik
                In 1944, the Red Army aviation lost more aircraft during non-combat operations than in combat. Either the Germans were not bad, or the aircraft in the Red Army became tricky.

                Either in non-combat losses they also recorded equipment that was written off after the exhaustion of the resource or as outdated. 1943-1944 - this is just rearmament for new types of machines + write-off of "pieces of wood" of early military production (well, how many such machines will have a resource when flying from the ground and storing in the open air).
          2. Snail N9
            Snail N9 24 November 2020 18: 17
            +5
            Plus, as it were, the technique of the Germans is more perfect

            Read how the pilots describe the cleaning of the landing gear on the I-16 - this is something with something ..., aiming at the Il-2, cloudy plexiglaz on the Er-2, Pe-2, and even in the spray from oil that engines flew ... as well as on La-5 ... And about the walkie-talkie ... Until 1942, we can say that there were no walkie-talkies on the planes of the Red Army ... I read at Pokryshkin how our pilots were just crazy about the fact that on the "cobra" was already 2! walkie-talkies, and even with crystal clear sound ... The level of engineering and execution of Soviet aircraft until the very end of the war left much to be desired and lagged behind the aircraft of absolutely all the main participants in WWII ...
            1. Zug
              Zug 24 November 2020 18: 20
              +2
              Yes ... and the more important is the victory ...
            2. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter 24 November 2020 18: 54
              +8
              Quote: Snail N9
              The level of engineering and execution of Soviet aircraft until the very end of the war left much to be desired and lagged behind the aircraft of absolutely all the main participants in WWII ...

              Colleague, are you forgetting that RI until 1917 was a bastard and totally illiterate country. Less than 20 years have passed from the end of the Civil War to the Great Patriotic War !!! Going from a wooden plow and bull bubbles on the windows to combat aircraft, isn't that an indicator?
              And when you are confronted with all the industrial power of the old woman of Europe?
            3. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 26 November 2020 13: 19
              0
              Quote: Snail N9
              To read how the pilots describe the cleaning of the landing gear on the I-16 - it's something with something ...

              The pilots of the Wildcats nod in understanding - they had to do this after taking off from the AB deck. smile
          3. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk 24 November 2020 20: 54
            +6
            Quote: Zug

            0

            And it is not even necessary to interpret it. A German pilot after graduation from school under 400 flight hours.

            Everyone has? And those who graduated from the years. school at 43? And where did those with 400 flight hours go then? Do they not lie in our land? And who put them there? Are the Martians?
            1. Vovk
              Vovk 24 November 2020 21: 49
              0
              Those pilots who were produced in 1943 had more flight hours than in 1941, but a big "BUT", on different types of aircraft, including the USA ... there was already a difference from 1939-1941 in training, there was no sharpening of pilots for one aircraft.
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 25 November 2020 00: 56
                +3
                Quote: Vovk
                Those pilots who were produced in 1943 had more flight hours than in 1941.

                About how!
                Quote: Vovk
                but a big "BUT", on different types of aircraft, including the United States

                Twice - Oh, how!
                What do you smoke there in Ukraine?
                1. Vovk
                  Vovk 25 November 2020 11: 08
                  0
                  I recommend looking at the flight books of those who were released in 1943. I myself was surprised when I saw this. Po-2, Yak-1 or La-5, Hawker Hurricane, P-39 Airacobra and very rarely anyone has a Supermarine Spitfire flight watch, P-47 Thunderbolt.
                  1. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 25 November 2020 11: 16
                    +2
                    Quote: Vovk
                    I recommend looking at the flight books of those who were released in 1943.

                    Wolf, and I was talking about German pilots.
                    About the hours flown by German pilots in aviation schools in 43 and later.
                    1. Vovk
                      Vovk 25 November 2020 11: 22
                      0
                      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
                      Wolf, and I was talking about German pilots.
                      About the hours flown by German pilots in aviation schools in 43 and later.

                      And I'm Soviet, the confusion is out)
          4. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 25 November 2020 00: 35
            +3
            Quote: Zug
            At the end of the years of school, a German pilot had 400 flight hours. Plus, on the spot in the regiment he was pumped with experience. We have an average of 25 to 50.


            This is a dogma, raise at least a hundred flight books from both sides and a lot of amazing things await you
      5. ccsr
        ccsr 24 November 2020 19: 46
        +3
        Quote: Zug
        Tymin is a historian, he doesn't get out of the archives.

        This does not mean anything, especially if he is not an expert in military matters. For example, any modern doctor, having opened the medical history of people of that era and the methods of treatment (according to his profile, of course), that led to the tragedy, can figure out what was done correctly and what was not done from the point of view of modern medical knowledge and his own experience. Timin has the knowledge of a physician to understand the treatment, if admitted to the archives of the diseases of our leading leaders of that era, to understand why they died? I don't think he can do it. The trouble with such "archivists" is that they do not even have a basic knowledge of the subject of research, and they only need speculation on documents to cover up their incompetence. Moreover, the archives contain only a small part of the array of documents on which the decision was made, because many documents were destroyed during the annual scheduled checks of secret office work. Still, not all documents of such researchers are allowed, not to mention the fact that some of the archives of the General Staff are generally inaccessible even to the country's top military leaders, and access to them is only with the personal permission of the head of the General Staff or the Ministry of Defense.
      6. rubin6286
        rubin6286 26 November 2020 01: 38
        0
        A military historian (military historians) is, first of all, an individual or a group of persons or a legal entity possessing certain knowledge in the relevant field of military affairs, having a specialized education, carrying out, on the instructions of the state, for a fee and in its interests, the study of certain events of the country's military past and clarification of certain historical facts. The publication of research by military historians is carried out by the state in the appropriate publications in compliance with the requirements of the current legislation of the Russian Federation.

        A blogger (bloggers) is, first of all, an individual or a group of persons or a legal entity that does not have certain knowledge in the relevant field of military affairs, does not have a specialized education, who, on their own initiative, in their personal interests, or commissioned by other interested parties, research certain events of the country's military past and clarification of certain historical facts. The publication of bloggers' research is carried out by them in the media free of charge, at their own expense, in compliance with the requirements of the current legislation of the Russian Federation.
  2. svp67
    svp67 24 November 2020 15: 38
    +2
    The Sky Artist blog provides data from the General Staff of the USSR Armed Forces, which indicates that the combat losses of the aircraft were about 45 thousand, while the "opponent" claims 50-55 thousand.
    Yeah, that is, the ratio of losses was not 10 to 1, but 8 to 1 ...
    1. Zug
      Zug 24 November 2020 16: 15
      +1
      Well, it means so ..
    2. 2 Level Advisor
      2 Level Advisor 24 November 2020 16: 33
      +1
      I don't know what the real ratio is .. but the fact that in the first period of the war the Germans had better technology and training (combat experience) of pilots, there is no point in arguing .. at the beginning - maybe 1 to 10 of ours, at the end - on the contrary 1 to 10 German .. it is more logical to consider the periods of the war .. but in fact, you just need to take the numbers of aircraft losses and compare .. from what is not in the sky but on the ground, for example, partisans jerked the plane or an inexperienced pilot crashed, the loss is wrong or what? but to compare by the periods of the war .. the sky of 1941 and 1944 is a completely different sky .. some kind of dispute about numbers, between statisticians-historians, not entirely clear conclusion bearing, with passing jokes on the topic served / did not serve, it feels like competitors They decided to figure it out .... Moreover, Potapov himself, according to his words in a video on a Yak-52 in civilian life, flew in 1989, and in 1992 he received a higher flight education. this is a GA school, but it clings to the military for some reason .. Not impressed in general ..
      1. Zug
        Zug 24 November 2020 16: 38
        +5
        I listened to him for 10 minutes. Didn't understand at all - what is he talking about there?
      2. svp67
        svp67 24 November 2020 16: 57
        +1
        Quote: Level 2 Advisor
        at the end - vice versa 1 in 10 German ..

        Alas, but not so ...
      3. The eye of the crying
        The eye of the crying 26 November 2020 00: 08
        0
        Quote: Level 2 Advisor
        at the end - vice versa 1 in 10 German ..


        There is no reason to think so.
    3. Krasnoyarsk
      Krasnoyarsk 24 November 2020 16: 49
      -3
      Quote: svp67
      Yeah, that is, the ratio of losses was not 10 to 1, but 8 to 1 ...

      Another "analyst" negative
      1. svp67
        svp67 24 November 2020 16: 57
        +5
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        Another "analyst"

        Another "critic" fool
        1. Krasnoyarsk
          Krasnoyarsk 24 November 2020 18: 37
          +4
          Quote: svp67
          Another "critic"

          I never criticize. Looked at Timin and Potapov and before them something. But I didn't draw any conclusions - there is too little information for such a complex topic. Here, some rely on formal logic - they say the raid of German pilots is almost several times greater than that of Soviet pilots, and therefore they shot down ours at once. But you understand that war and formal logic are never friends.
          If we proceed from Timin's message - 1 - 10, then in order for ours to win, ours should have at least 10 times more aircraft. than the Germans. Is that so? This is not the case. Therefore, I question Timin's figure. The outcome of the war raises doubts. Yes, without a doubt, in 41 and 42. the Germans won in the sky, but in 44 and 45 the situation was exactly the opposite. Why do I think so? And in 44, our pilots were allowed free hunting. Does this mean something?
          1. svp67
            svp67 24 November 2020 19: 54
            +2
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            If we proceed from Timin's message - 1 - 10, then in order for ours to win, our planes should have at least 10 times more. than the Germans. Is that so?

            You are not taking into account the fact that the Luftwaffe had to fight on the Western Front. And the number of losses, both ours and the German sides in each sector of the confrontation, is known, that here Timin simply relies on the archives, in which he has to work for a very long time.
            Quote: Krasnoyarsk
            Yes, without a doubt, in 41 and 42. the Germans won in the sky, but in 44 and 45 the situation was exactly the opposite. Why do I think so? And in 44, our pilots were allowed free hunting. Does this mean something?

            Yes, ours won, if only due to the fact that they received rich experience and the number of the enemy was sharply reduced, since the Luftwaffe transferred the bulk of its aircraft to the Western Front against the allies.
            And not all pilots, not even all regiments were allowed "free hunting"
            1. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter 24 November 2020 19: 58
              +1
              Quote: svp67
              since the Luftwaffe transferred the bulk of its aircraft to the Western Front against the Allies.

              Colleague, can you provide data on the number of aircraft on the western and eastern fronts?
            2. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 24 November 2020 20: 46
              0
              Quote: svp67

              You are not taking into account the fact that the Luftwaffe had to fight on the Western Front.

              Yes, I had to. But even the Germans themselves did not hide the fact that the main resources of Germany went to the Eastern Front. The word resources literally meant everything, including aviation.
              Quote: svp67
              And the number of losses, both ours and the German sides in each sector of the confrontation, is known,

              I'm not sure about that. The Germans had no such idea - they shot down an enemy plane. They had a concept - victory. Shot down by a German TB-3 and 4 victories were recorded for him.
              So the Germans may also have different nuances with the statistics of their losses.
              Quote: svp67
              ... the number of the enemy decreased sharply, as the Luftwaffe transferred the bulk of its aircraft to the Western Front

              And can you prove it with numbers in hand?
              Quote: svp67

              And not all pilots, not even all regiments were allowed "free hunting"

              You might think that the Germans allowed this to all pilots and all squadrons.
              But the point is not even this, but the fact that the very fact of "free hunting" speaks of the superiority of owls in the air. aviation.
          2. Igoresha
            Igoresha 26 November 2020 09: 03
            +1
            Is this talking about something?
            and the presence of Aircobras, i.e. equipment appropriate, on an LA-5 or Yak-3 these half-hours of flight will not walk
            1. Krasnoyarsk
              Krasnoyarsk 26 November 2020 09: 23
              0
              Quote: Igoresha
              you can't walk on an LA-5 or Yak-3 this half-hour flight

              I won't lie, I won't live! So?
              1. Igoresha
                Igoresha 27 November 2020 11: 46
                0
                I won't lie, I won't live! So?
                who knows you
    4. rubin6286
      rubin6286 26 November 2020 01: 44
      0
      The cited official data of the military command and control bodies of the USSR Armed Forces are the most reliable, since they are based on the vast statistical material available in domestic and foreign archives.
  3. Alexander Vorontsov
    Alexander Vorontsov 24 November 2020 15: 45
    0
    Thanks a lot for the video.
    I started looking with the thought - I'll look for a minute and woke up after 20 minutes realizing that it was stuck))
  4. Zug
    Zug 24 November 2020 16: 14
    -1
    Question: What can a pilot with an average of 50 hours of flight time. Of these, about 20 on a fighter plane against an enemy with 400 hours of flight time, with which he leaves the aviation school. Answer: No ... nothing. And no matter how hard the pilot tries, not contrived to outplay the pilot with such a touch and experience of shooting is unrealistic.
    1. gurzuf
      gurzuf 24 November 2020 16: 27
      +3
      This statement applies to both the Red Army Air Force (first half of the Second World War) and the Luftwaffe (second half of the Second World War)
      1. Zug
        Zug 24 November 2020 16: 31
        +6
        The Germans, even at the end of the war, had a raid, if I'm not mistaken, at least 150 hours. The video presented is about nothing. If Timin operates at least with documents. Then his opponent just does blah blah blah. A series of videos by the historian Gorbach about Kursk was released. losses from the front of the arc to the front. The ratio of losses according to dock.shtabov and report. Koi he voices about the same. Timin disappears in the archives and who is this pilot? He spent at least a day in the archives?
        1. meandr51
          meandr51 24 November 2020 17: 52
          +1
          The Germans, in principle, could not provide a sufficient number of pilots with 150 flight hours. Their release was much smaller. Although our cadets had no more than 50 hours (including the U-2), the total number of pilots was much higher, which made it possible to quickly increase the number of newcomers in flight, helping them to survive in the first battles. The Germans were shot down much faster, they did not have time to gain combat experience. The USSR's bet on quantity turning into quality turned out to be correct.
          By the way, according to the "Order on the Establishment of the System of Training and the Procedure for Manning Higher Educational Institutions of the Air Force and Improving the Quality of Flight and Technical Personnel" No. 080 of March 3, 1941, the norm was set for cadets of flight schools - 30 flight hours, and for cadets of schools ... So it wasn't all that bad.
          1. Zug
            Zug 24 November 2020 17: 56
            +1
            Yes-150 at the end of the war, this is an average value. And all the aces were already let down to the ground. But we suffered great losses, the victory was hard. The number may be correct, but I'm sorry for people ... But in fact, fighter pilots, for example They took the most-most. Only then in bombers and who remained in attack aircraft ..
    2. rubin6286
      rubin6286 26 November 2020 01: 45
      0
      It happens that a girl gives birth ...
  5. Zug
    Zug 24 November 2020 16: 20
    +1
    Gorbach about Kursk would have picked it up. There, the historian analyzes the loss by day in full. Well, the situation is about the same
  6. Indifferent
    Indifferent 24 November 2020 17: 17
    +3
    I do not understand what the dispute is about, but I know that there are figures for the total losses of pilots in manpower (in people, not aircraft) and they are the lowest of all the warring parties.
    In the first place - Japan: 60,750 killed pilots (well, this is understandable, "kamikaze", traditions of honor, etc.)
    In second place - Germany: 57.137 killed pilots.
    In third place - England: 56.821 killed the pilot.
    In fourth place - USA: 40,061 killed the pilot.
    And on the FIFTH, the last place - the USSR: 34.500 killed pilots.
    1. rubin6286
      rubin6286 26 November 2020 02: 02
      0
      The dispute is about this. As of 22.06. 1941 in 5 military districts attacked by Nazi Germany there were only A pilots. The enemy had A1 pilots in the ranks during this period. On September 1, 1941, the USSR had B pilots in these districts, the Germans had B1. Which is greater than B or B1.
      From September 1941 to 09.05.1945/1/1, only C pilots were trained in the USSR, CXNUMX was trained by the Germans on the eastern front. Which is greater than C or CXNUMX?
      Of the pilots C trained from September 1941 to 09.05.1945/1/1 in the USSR, D was killed, the Germans were D1. What is the ratio of D / S for the USSR and DXNUMX / CXNUMX for Germany on the eastern front.
  7. The comment was deleted.
  8. Thompson
    Thompson 24 November 2020 18: 16
    +2
    The meaning of these picking and the ultimate goal ??? What do they want to prove ???
    So they regret that we had a greater resource in both warriors and resources, and regret that we won the war? This is my opinion.
    1. victor50
      victor50 25 November 2020 10: 45
      0
      Quote: Thompson
      The meaning of these picking and the ultimate goal ??? What do they want to prove ???
      So they regret that we had a greater resource in both warriors and resources, and regret that we won the war? This is my opinion.

      Maybe to understand how you won? Why did you lose? Do not make mistakes that were. And just know the truth.
  9. boris epstein
    boris epstein 24 November 2020 18: 34
    +2
    Most of the losses in 1941 were lost at border airfields (not in air battles.), Especially on the first day of the war. Damaged, abandoned due to lack of fuel (fuel depots were bombed) By the way, the greatest losses in one day (about 300 aircraft) the Germans suffered precisely on June 22, 1941. And this speaks of the sufficiently high-quality training of Soviet pilots and anti-aircraft gunners before the war. In 1944-1945, the lion's share of Soviet aviation losses (65%) was not in air battles, but from German anti-aircraft artillery. And their anti-aircraft artillery was numerous and varied. 20mm, 30mm, 37mm, 50mm. automatic anti-aircraft guns, 88 mm, 105 mm, 128 mm, 150 mm anti-aircraft guns. At the end of the war, Valkyrie anti-aircraft missiles were developed. There were NON-COMBAT losses. There was a ferry air division, ferrying aircraft from Alaska across Siberia to the front. Combat pilots of front-line air regiments ferried aircraft received under Lend-Lease from Iran and from the North.
    1. Vovk
      Vovk 24 November 2020 22: 02
      +1
      Let's look at the qualitative composition of the Soviet Aces during the Second World War. If you look at their biographies, then 1) most of them are from the old career army of 1941; 2) received a large number of flight instructors due to the fact that they were flight instructors; 3) were pilots from God. But most of the pilots of the 1942 release were really from short-term courses and had minimal flight hours ... so they made up the majority of the irrecoverable losses of the Soviet Air Force - and without a difference fighters, attack aircraft, bombers, torpedo bombers.
      I know one of the shameful facts of concealing the losses of the USSR Air Force ... these are the losses of assault and bomber aviation during the capture of the Seelow Heights ...
      1. victor50
        victor50 25 November 2020 10: 46
        0
        Quote: Vovk
        1) most of them are from the old career army of 1941

        Name someone.
        1. Vovk
          Vovk 25 November 2020 10: 56
          +1
          Quote: victor50
          Quote: Vovk
          1) most of them are from the old career army of 1941
          Name someone.

          Pokryshkin and Safonov immediately come to mind.
          1. victor50
            victor50 25 November 2020 13: 46
            0
            Quote: Vovk
            Pokryshkin and Safonov immediately come to mind.

            Thanks. I read it wrong: instead of 1941 - 1914. So I asked a question. Yes of course.
        2. Zug
          Zug 30 November 2020 09: 50
          0
          Smushkevich from the "old" personnel
      2. boris epstein
        boris epstein 25 November 2020 15: 28
        0
        For example, the regiment in which AI Pokryshkin fought. Soviet pilots-medal bearers Sukhov, Golubev, Berezkin, Zherdev, Trofimov, Hero of the Soviet Union Fedorov, twice Hero of the Soviet Union of Clubs, in the regiment of Pokryshkin retrained from an Il-2 attack aircraft to an aerocobra fighter, Vakhnenko, retrained from an aircraft to a fighter pilot - all issues aviation schools 1942-1943. And this is only ONE regiment. The other shelves were the same. After the arrival of the replenishment in the operating regiments, they were prepared for another month. One more example. Hero of the Soviet Union, attack pilot Boris Korsunsky graduated from an aviation school in Lugansk in February 1942. 680 sorties. Since April, in active aviation. After the war, he was a test pilot, died while testing new technology. Large losses of assault aircraft are explained primarily not so much by the qualifications of the pilots, but by the fact that the assault operated in the very heat of anti-aircraft fire from low altitudes. It is not for nothing that in 1941 the title of Hero of the Soviet Union Union for stormtroopers was two for 15! sorties, in 1942 - over 25, from 1943 - over 40.
        ... "one of the shameful facts of concealing the losses of the USSR Air Force ... is the loss of assault and bomber aviation during the capture of the Seelow Heights ..."
        For the Germans, the Seelow Heights were the same as the Moscow region in 1941 or Stalingrad in 1942 for the Red Army. Read in my post above about the German anti-aircraft artillery. for the Red Army. The fortifications on the Seelow Heights were broken through, the German group was NOT allowed to retreat to Berlin to participate in street battles, it was defeated. Otherwise, the losses of the Red Army in Berlin would have been SIGNIFICANTLY greater. I see no shame, point blank.
        1. Vovk
          Vovk 25 November 2020 17: 42
          +1
          Quote: boris epstein
          I see no shame, point blank.

          Official propaganda from the times of the USSR and later claimed that there were no huge losses in the USSR Air Force on the Seelow Heights, but in reality the losses were such that every hour the air assault or bombing regiment did not return from combat missions ... this was a shame, disrespect for fallen and lies in statistics so far.
    2. rubin6286
      rubin6286 26 November 2020 02: 08
      0
      I think that it is worth abstracting and counting only combat losses (air battles, air strikes, fire FOR). It's easier to count that way.
  10. Timofey Charuta
    Timofey Charuta 25 November 2020 01: 11
    +1
    To complicate is easy, to simplify is difficult. The simplest questions are the most difficult answers.

    I do not pretend to be an analyst. Just arithmetic. With a loss ratio of 1 to 10, that is how many planes must be built to defeat the Germans. Anyway, the USSR made planes not 10 times more than the Germans. And according to rough estimates, 1,5 times more, well, maybe 2 times more, taking into account Lend-Lease.

    According to Timin, it turns out that the Germans shot down many times more than we produced. And also to compare how much the Germans had left by the time of surrender, and how much we had. Here already arithmetic + simple logic.

    If, according to the overall final result, the Germans shot down 10 of ours, lost 1 of theirs, then the war is over, and not in Berlin. The Soviet Air Force simply has nothing to fight on.

    Without swearing and insulting, without being clever, please explain what is the matter. To those who really know - thanks. I think the answer will be interesting to everyone.

  11. certero
    certero 25 November 2020 10: 47
    +3
    Quote: meandr51
    An unsubstantiated slander against the Soviet Army.

    H.Z. where did you see it. But unreasonable patriotism and shapkozakidatelstvo present in your comment.
    I listen to Thymin's videos all the time and he always talks on the basis of documents from both sides.
    The reasons for the large losses of our aviation are complex.
    This is, in general, the worst aircraft than the Germans and the worst basic training of pilots than the Germans.
    To consider such facts as slander is excuse stupidity. On the contrary, having generally worse training and equipment, ours still managed to win.
    1. Vovk
      Vovk 25 November 2020 11: 49
      0
      Quote: certero
      This is, in general, the worst aircraft than the Germans and the worst basic training of pilots than the Germans.

      I will add, the worst management of air armies. Example 1941 fighters stormed tank columns, and did not accompany attack aircraft, bombers and art. spotters. 1942 Instead of skillfully interacting with the ground forces, they burned the motor resource for useless patrolling, the Germans concentrated aviation in the places of the strike, ours scattered. Troops on the ground fighting in general from the air did not cover themselves. And the pilots themselves ignored instructions from the ground. A mess in the management of the Air Force was until 1943.
      And the quality of aviation fuel in the USSR, even with additives, fell to such an extent that they received fuel through the Lend-Lease line until the end of the war.
      1. Alexey RA
        Alexey RA 26 November 2020 13: 35
        +1
        Quote: Vovk
        I will add, the worst management of air armies. Example 1941 fighters stormed tank columns, and did not accompany attack aircraft, bombers and art. spotters.

        More precisely, the absence of air armies in the first year of the war. The decentralization of the Air Force with the dispersal of air divisions between the fronts and armies led to the impossibility of a quick concentration of forces in threatened directions and to the impossibility of organizing the normal work of the Air Force: some do not have fighters to cover the strikers, while others have fighters, but there are no strikers left.
        In addition, this parochialism led to the inappropriate use of DBA and naval aviation in the role of frontal aviation - simply because they could be used centrally.
  12. The comment was deleted.
  13. Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 25 November 2020 11: 46
    +2
    Without swearing and insulting, without being clever, please explain what is the matter. To those who really know - thanks. I think the answer will be interesting to everyone.

    The whole question is what is called "loss". There is: an irretrievable loss, a damaged car that was repaired, a damaged car that is not being repaired, a converted car. There are: losses of front-line aircraft in combat flights which can be hit with or without the influence of the enemy, then losses of front-line aircraft in non-combat flights, then losses of training aircraft, and so on.
    Ultimately, the balance should converge: presence at the beginning of the period + production - presence at the end of the period = losses for that period.
    For the Luftwaffe, according to official modern German statistics, this balance from September 1, 39 to March 31, 1945 looks like this: 10 thousand aircraft of all types at the front and in the field on September 1 39 + 113 thousand production - 23 thousand available on April 1, 1945 = 100 thousand losses from September 1 39 to April 1 45.
    The availability of 23 thousand vehicles as of April 1, 45 includes: front-line aircraft in combat and replenishment units, training aircraft, aircraft for repair, aircraft in factories, in acceptance and food, in warehouses and so on.
    Then, from April 1, 45 to May 9, 45 all 23 thousand cars also suffered losses, plus production for this period (about even more than a thousand cars).
    So the German irrecoverable loss of aircraft of at least 124 thousand aircraft throughout the war, on all fronts and for all reasons.
    Soviet similar losses of 106 thousand aircraft.
    USA - more than 60 thousand.
    And this is only the number of lost cars, but does not reflect their cost.
    The distribution along the fronts and the reason for the loss is already subject to all speculation.
    But you must have in mind:
    1. Not more than half, in all air forces, is losses from enemy impact and not more than half of these losses from fighters.
    2. Damaged vehicles that were repaired, but disassembled for parts, losses during acceptance and nutrition, training aircraft in Tila, etc. took place mainly in Germany and were written off as "losses to the West."
    3. One can estimate the German losses in the East as not less than 40% of the total German losses on March 31 45.
    4. The final elimination of the Luftwaffe and the loss of at least 22 thousand aircraft on the ground from April 1 to May 9 45 was due to the defeat of the German ground forces by the Red Army. About 2 thousand more cars were lost in the air during this period, too, mainly in the East where the Luftwaffe threw its forces into the last battle.
    1. Timofey Charuta
      Timofey Charuta 25 November 2020 12: 56
      0
      Thank you, accepted. Quite a clear, reasoned answer.
    2. rubin6286
      rubin6286 26 November 2020 02: 28
      +1
      I agree with the front-line soldiers. The planes are worth considering. They are a tin or a piece of wood. Burned out - they will give a new one. While the "zheltorotiki" become real air fighters, there will be many more of them. One of the regiments for the period from April 1942 to March 1943 on the Stalingrad front was sent to Kuyyshev for reorganization. By this time he had lost 13 pilots killed and 18 were decommissioned from flight work, i.e.. crippled. Received a regiment of 36 brand new La-5s and brought them up to full strength. Out 31, now 36. Crippled are also combat losses. Who among the bloggers counted them?
  14. iouris
    iouris 25 November 2020 12: 53
    0
    Only a total scoundrel could say that. The introduction of such ideas, the attitude to everything Soviet as criminal and having no historical significance, and to the Soviet and Russian people as "subhumans" means open propaganda of the ideas of Nazism. Reformatting the consciousness of the population in this spirit will mean that Russian civilization has suffered a historical collapse and will disappear, i.e. Nazism will win.
  15. Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 25 November 2020 13: 38
    0
    Very good analysis. There are only the following remarks.
    1. To 113 thousand cars produced in Germany until March 31, 45, it is necessary to add about 10 thousand in the presence at the beginning of the war and 1-2 thousand products in April and early May 45.
    2. The losses of aircraft written off for all reasons, including non-combat losses, must still be considered for Germany and the USSR, since the cause of these losses is war.
  16. The comment was deleted.
  17. Baron pardus
    Baron pardus 26 November 2020 00: 27
    +2
    Let me ask you a question. You have a certain XI country. 25 years ago, literacy in this country was 27%, there was almost no industry at all, they could not even provide themselves with rifles, not to mention artillery and aviation. Then in this country there was a civil war, intervention and economic blockade. So we are in 1941. Country X in many industries either caught up or almost caught up with its "partners" and enemies. But the technological lag of 75-100 years (remember that in GERMANY in 1914, literacy was over 98%, and Germany, England and France EXPORTED weapons, but never imported them), it is impossible to overcome in 20 years. As a result, we are still lagging behind. And for gunpowder, and for the production of aluminum, and aircraft engines. Country X did not have its own design school 25 years ago. From the word at all. Ships were bought abroad, rifles and cannons too, aircraft engines too. It was LITTLE. Up to the point that in 1916 they seriously thought about arming one of the 10 infantrymen with a cane. Rifles were simply not enough. So we lagged behind the Germans, British and Americans for decades in 1914. The technical illiteracy even among the command staff was blatant. For example, an order not to purchase electric spark plugs for submarines in France, but to use Russian stearic spark plugs as spark plugs. And this was not written by the fireman Misha from the Odessa tug, but by the Admiral. Then there were TWO revolutions + civil + intervention. Almost everything was in ruins. Rebuilt from scratch. There were no design schools of their own, and the few that were - made sense abroad (Sikorsky). So we are lagging behind in terms of: the quality of gunpowder, the quality of gasoline, the production and quality of aluminum, and the aircraft engines and walkie-talkies, and the quality of glass (for optics) Well, they bought something, but how many times can the unfortunate Hispano Suiza be raped? By the way, there are no superchargers either. From the word AT ALL. So we fought with what it was. Because thanks first to the priests of the tsars, then to the whites, who unleashed the Civil War, then the interventionists, then the blockade, nothing else could have happened. It is generally a miracle that a country that could not even provide itself with rifles in 1916 managed to make its own aircraft structure, and far from being the worst one. We fought by what it was. Well, the USSR, from an agrarian illiterate Russia for, under the conditions of a civil war and an economic blockade, cannot catch up with the industrial giants Germany, England, France and the USA in 25 years. Well, yes, that's why the Yak-1 had an engine of 1150 hp, and on the Spitfier 5, 1580 horses, and on Messer F, 1350 horses. On the messer and sleeping there was a radio station quite good, but on the Yaks, if it was, it was very nasty. Everyone wrote about the dull glass in the cockpits and the sights of the First World War. Stalin and the USSR did a miracle at least that these planes were. Recall that 25 years ago, the Russian Empire was completely dependent on the import of aircraft engines. (And machine guns, and rifles, and artillery, especially heavy). So I fully agree that in terms of performance characteristics, our aircraft were inferior in some aspects to their opponents, that the service was not up to par, that the build quality was not so hot (this is not a Rolls Royce, where mechanic Uncle Harry has been collecting merlin for 10 years, and maybe do it with your eyes closed) which explains the higher losses. That due to the technical ignorance of both the pilots and personnel, the suffering in the KB KM / Ch and M / Sec and Grad / Sec fly away since the cockpit is opened, the radiator flaps are not open according to the charter, no one monitors the internal sealing and the plane has not been polished for a long time already. (The phrase is completely taken from the book "I fought in the Fighter"). So I do not udevila higher losses of the Red Army Air Force, especially considering how many aircraft were covered in the first days at the airfields. You can talk as much as you like about the "gasket between the steering wheel and the seat", but the advantage of 150+ horses, excellent walkie-talkie, transparent glass, good gasoline, qualified maintenance will not go anywhere. In battle, trifles often bring victory.
    1. EvilLion
      EvilLion 26 November 2020 09: 04
      -1
      Well, yes, that's why the Yak-1 had an engine of 1150 hp, and on the Spitfier 5, 1580 horses, and on Messer F, 1350 horses.


      Yak-1 is still easier. Although a light plane is no good, of course. In general, the situation there is such that the efficiency of the propeller falls, therefore + 20% of the engine power does not mean at all that the thrust will be 20%. So by the end of WWII, everyone somehow caught up more or less. More than 700 km / h on a piston engine is almost unrealistic, hp growing, there are almost no kilometers per hour. Only the turbines allowed to increase another 100-150 km / h on the propeller. And it is quite difficult to convert a few percent of the difference in flight performance into a downed one, well, it is unrealistic to shoot down a fighter in dog-fight, and in general an actively maneuvering plane was shot down mainly by the first attack until the enemy could see.

      Another thing is that the USSR could build the Yak-1 and even the Il-2, but for the USSR it was unrealistic to create something like the B-29, where even the shooters had analog ballistic computers, or the P-47 with its engine in EMNIP 2300 liters ... from. And then also produce in thousands.

      and economic blockade


      Not really, our people traveled to the USA quite freely, plus the Great Depression, they sold everything to everyone, even the USSR. Although they did not forget about the sanctions. Russia cannot be without sanctions, for 1000 years there has not been a day when someone does not forbid us to supply something. But it was far from the Iron Curtain in the 30s.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 26 November 2020 13: 43
      0
      Quote: Baron Pardus
      Well, the USSR, from an agrarian illiterate Russia for, under the conditions of a civil war and an economic blockade, cannot catch up with the industrial giants Germany, England, France and the USA in 25 years. Well, yes, that's why the Yak-1 had an engine of 1150 hp, and on the Spitfire 5, 1580 horses, and on Messer F, 1350 horses.

      There was another problem with engines - high octane. Or rather, its absence.
      The use of high-octane fuel made it possible to significantly increase the engine power. So, in 1937 at the Central Scientific Research Institute of Aviation Motors, the Mikuli-on AM-34FRN engine was tested using extra-100 gasoline, while the engine power increased from 970 to 1 hp. from. The result was fantastic. To achieve it on ordinary "combat" gasoline, the axle would have required 700-5 years of development of the engine design, and this power was achieved in 6, when Mikulin created the AM-1943F engine, which had a takeoff power of 38 liters. from. Gasoline "Extra-1" was produced in a semi-handicraft way in very small quantities (the minutes of the meeting with the Head of the USG RKKA on the use and testing of aviation gasoline "Extra-700" is given in Appendix No. 100) and was used for tests and record flights (for example, the flight of Chkalov and Gromov across the North Pole). The lack of modern high-octane gasoline in combat units led to the fact that aviation technology had understated characteristics to ensure operation on the fuel that was available.

      Until the end of the 30s, the B-70 was our main aviation gasoline. At the end of the 30s, the transition to the B-78 began, but the NKTP tore down everything and everyone, even with a planned promise to deliver in 1941 less than a quarter of the B-78 from the needs of peacetime.
      The mobilization plan of the national economy for the 1941 war year provided for the supply of NPOs to 174,5 thousand tons of B-78 aviation gasoline. In the presence of 56,9 thousand tons of this type of gasoline in the untouchable reserves of NPOs, the security of annual demand was less than 22,5%. For other types of gasolines, the need for NPOs was planned to meet (taking into account the use of cash emergency reserves) for B-74 by 28,6%, for B-70 and RB-70 - by 98,8%. But the B-70 and RB-70 were used mainly on outdated types of aircraft, and the main share of the needs for them fell on training units and refresher courses.
      © Melia A.A. Mobilization training of the national economy of the USSR.
      1. Baron pardus
        Baron pardus 26 November 2020 22: 39
        +1
        The backwardness in fuel and lubricants is a consequence of the general backwardness that has been going on not only since 1914, but even earlier. Just to understand how neogonduras was the "Russian Empire" with "crunches of the French bread". It is customary to make fun of Austria-Hungary during WWI. Well, yes, the country was not one of the advanced, obviously not Germany or England, BUT ... They made aircraft engines there, and they made their aircraft there. In RI, aircraft engines were not made from the word AT ALL. And Austria Hungary provided itself with rifles, machine guns and artillery, emnip Literacy in Austria Hungary was over 80% (at least in one language someone knew how to both read and write). The Russian empire could not even provide itself with rifles; they bought both Arisaki and Winchesters in 1895, not to mention artillery, machine guns and warships (which were often built abroad, there were NOT ENOUGH of its own shipyards and trained workers). Another country is Italy. She also provided herself with EVERYTHING. And they did not need to order spare parts for the submarine in France. And the Italian admirals did not put forward the resolution "Do not buy electric spark plugs in France, put your own, stearic ones." If Russia was in such a needy in 1914, it would be a miracle if in 26 years it would catch up with England, Germany, or even France in all branches of technology. The fact that ours were able to do those engines that were is already a miracle, given from what dense bottom, Stalin was forced to raise the country.
        1. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 30 December 2020 13: 02
          0
          Quote: Baron Pardus
          The backwardness in fuel and lubricants is a consequence of the general backwardness that has been going on not only since 1914, but even earlier. Just to understand how neogonduras was the "Russian Empire" with "crunches of the French bread".

          On a note. Until 1917, the best lubricating oil in the world was ... suddenly ... Russian. It was considered good luck to get "Russian oil" for your plane or racing car. Also, on the fronts of WWII, Russian aviation was the coolest. Just no PR. Yes, the aircraft engines were ordered abroad, since they were made from nass only on Russo-Balta under kerosene, and in insufficient quantities. But our aircraft designers were the best) Hehe ...
    3. Zug
      Zug 30 November 2020 10: 39
      0
      Excellently written, succinctly and succinctly, about a lot!
  18. EvilLion
    EvilLion 26 November 2020 08: 50
    -3
    In general, Timin is poked into his own pile notably. Interestingly, the same Isaev, stating that in the 44th year of the USSR, he wrote off more cars for wear than he lost from the conditional Hartmans, he also does not comment on this, apparently, not understanding the essence of the phenomenon and the consumption of equipment for training.

    And for the Timins everything is simple, if the Red Army removed the plane from the balance, the Germans shot it down, not otherwise. It remains only to understand how the Germans lost the war in general, and in particular, after 1942, they did not win a single battle.

    Although where this comes from is also understandable, Prudnikova is still in the tsarist army who records the same sentiments that the result is nafig, the main thing is to die heroically, or heroically flood his ship, like the Varyag. Well, when, as in Syria, when our platoon, having got into trouble, managed to leave, having lost only 29 wounded out of 5 people, having hung up the bearded men, together with the aviation that came to the rescue, it's boring. Nobody died.
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 26 November 2020 13: 47
      0
      Quote: EvilLion
      And for the Timins everything is simple, if the Red Army removed the plane from the balance, the Germans shot it down, not otherwise.

      There is also a second option, when all non-combat losses are considered as aircraft broken by pilots.
      Although this aircraft could simply be written off after the rearmament of the unit with new equipment or due to the exhaustion of the resource (wood, especially of a military issue, does not go well with outdoor parking).
      1. EvilLion
        EvilLion 26 November 2020 14: 50
        -2
        And what exactly is Sky Artist talking about. I watched his video here even before publication. The resource of engines on afterburner hours 50, in wartime this with a head, the total resource required in the USSR 200 hours. The same "Airacobra", as they wrote here, was loved by us because it traveled with a motor resource of 400, ours forced it, there were 200 left and forward to shoot down the Hartmans and Strudels. With time add. pilot training in ZAP at 40 hours, we get that 1 set of motors (how many there are for a car) is enough for 5 crews, since they did not fly along the route there, then most likely, much less. Well, a tree is just for 1 season. Plus the obsolescence of the car, it makes no sense to do it for centuries, if on the trail. year will be something much better.
        1. Baron pardus
          Baron pardus 26 November 2020 22: 52
          +1
          I strongly disagree with you about the "obsolescence of the machine" and "something better will appear next year." Just offhand. F4U Corsair. He entered the ranks in 1942. He flew and bombed and shot down right up to the 56th. And not in the Honduran Air Force but in the French Air Force. In the Air Force of the Third World, he flew and served until 1969. What, "No reason to do this for centuries"? Move on. Bomber A26 Invader (later B26) Appeared in 1942, fought in Vietnam and Angola, already in the 60s. This is about "Obsolete" and "In a year will be better". And these are the aircraft that appeared during the SECOND WORLD, which served already in the era of jet aircraft and air defense systems. And if we delve into jet planes, we will find many more "old men" who pulled the strap for a very long time, and, in some places, still serve. By the way, about the aerocobra. The fact that the engines were forced did not kill the plane, they just changed the engines and flew on. EMNIP, Yakovlev wrote about this. I also read somewhere that our Airacobra made it easier. EMNIP: They removed the second oxygen cylinder, removed 7.62mm machine guns, saved 150 + kg, which had a positive effect on flight performance.
    2. Zug
      Zug 30 November 2020 10: 47
      0
      Third battle for Kharkov. We won.
  19. Thompson
    Thompson 28 November 2020 12: 57
    0
    How easy it is to analyze the cases of bygone years !!!
    Everything at once and strategists and tactics.
    To understand today's
  20. Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 30 December 2020 12: 58
    0
    Unfortunately, I have no access to the archives. However, it is a well-known fact that the number of flight hours in Soviet aviation schools was significantly lower than in German ones. As much as 24 hours were allotted for this business in 40 for fighters, and 20 hours for bombers. The raid of the Germans was over 200 hours. At the same time, numerous "transport" flights were still practiced already in the combat unit.
    Due to the fact that the flying time of the German graduate was 10 or more times higher than that of our pilot, no other conclusions can be made except for "being filled with corpses" in principle. Regardless of whether I am a patriot of Russia and the USSR, it is stupid not to admit the obvious, and in many cases even criminal. Yes, the Soviet leadership killed a huge number of young pilots. Having released them into battle with such training, they were like being shot, just hoping that there would not be enough cartridges for everyone.
    No amount of martial prowess can compensate for the skill of controlling complex vehicles that you were not given. In addition, a form of madness was going on in the control chains of Soviet aviation. Draw three parallel lines on a piece of paper. This is a common link in Soviet aircraft - a troika. Now draw how this three makes a left 90 degree maneuver. The plane on the far right has the largest arc. The next one is much smaller. And the right one? In order for them to somehow turn all three, without losing too much formation, the leftmost plane had to develop a significantly higher speed than the rest.
    Or he had to start maneuvers in height, which also required significantly more power consumption than the first two. As a result, Soviet aircraft could use no more than 60% of their power, or their combat formation fell apart to hell. What was that ?! There was no one to draw on a piece of paper?
    Pilot training and military science in aviation in the USSR before the war were one continuous crime. And yes, all this was paid for with just huge blood ...
    1. Zvolinski alex
      Zvolinski alex 4 January 2021 00: 12
      0
      obviously you did not study the training of pilots in the USSR carefully watch the video and it will become clear which hours were counted and how much
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 4 January 2021 11: 53
        0
        You see, no video can turn 20 hours into 200. None. There are methods of super-dense training, but firstly, Soviet pilots were not subjected to it, and secondly, even they will not overcome the tenfold bar in this case.
        It was murder in cold blood. Under the brand name "fuel economy". At the same time, along with the pilot, the car was lost, so there was no savings, these were even more severe losses. The situation with the training of pilots is the most disgusting thing that the USSR did in that War. Along with massive heroism and the greatest achievements in many areas, we had literally hellish aviation. There is nowhere to hide from this.
  21. Zvolinski alex
    Zvolinski alex 4 January 2021 00: 09
    0
    Yes, I see people in order to become popular and scandalous, you need to write something in spite of and for the benefit of someone ....... it was always like this, but I had a grandfather and I believe him more than an archivist, so he told me that at 41 -42 years they patted not a lot, well, on the Kursk Bulge, the malekho did not work out, but basically they fought on a level, they did not throw them in, but the flight crew was always prepared, they said that they did not let young people go to landfills for two months; there were, and at 44, in general, there was courage who would grind the Fritzes as much as possible ..... I don't like scribblers who pass off their theory as truth
    1. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 4 January 2021 11: 56
      0
      As for the losses of 41-42, "everyone lies"? Does grandfather tell the truth alone? Would be ashamed ...
      1. Zvolinski alex
        Zvolinski alex 28 January 2021 20: 27
        0
        You don’t shame me ..... but I trust my grandfather more than a thousand hacks and commentators like you, so mikhail 3 walk side with your truth
        1. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 1 February 2021 09: 01
          0
          Walk you too. With your lies. Do not confuse grandfather if he exists ...