A relic of a bygone era or a final judgment

Combat ekranoplan. An apparatus from our past Soviet life, a half-aircraft-half-ship, the capabilities of which remained underestimated? Or something else?

Photo: © raskalov / Instagram

"Lun"

In general, the idea of ​​a combat ekranoplan, at high speed approaching the enemy squadron and launching anti-ship missiles, still excites the minds of many. Fast, inconspicuous and deadly (by the standards of the XNUMXth century), some just want to see a ship in our fleet.

Perhaps this is normal.

The Americans have their aircraft carriers (such a dubious exclusive). We have Borei. But now you want something that will make the whole world shudder and start to fear us again. Poseidon, Petrel, ekranoplan ...

The main thing is to make it not entirely clear and frightening.

The former winged missile carrier "Lun" really looked terrifying. And they could scare the layman of any country without exception. Just because such weapons (albeit in the project) no one had.

Combat value

The combat value of the ekranoplan today looks somewhat contradictory. Yes, this device has obvious advantages in the form of real tremendous speed. Compared to ships.

Today, many (among those advocating the revival of ekranoplanes) adhere to the point of view that an ekranoplan is, first of all, a ship. Therefore, it must be compared with ships.

Debatable, of course. But you can try to compare the Lun ekranoplan with modern ships.

Compared to modern destroyers, Lun has only one advantage: speed. We do not even stutter about stealth, this whopper from space will not be seen only by the satellite, whose lenses are turned towards Mars.

In addition, reconnaissance aircraft and ship-based helicopters will not leave any chance.

weaponry

But the speed advantage is also very difficult to realize. The Mosquito anti-ship missile system, which the Lun was armed with, they, to put it mildly, did not differ in a long range at low altitude, where the Mosquitoes realized their strengths. 120 km is not enough in our time.

Some will say - to take and transfer to "Caliber". Yes, a smart idea, I agree. The Lun was carrying three twin mounts for the Mosquitoes. "Calibers" will be smaller. Placement is not such a problem, perhaps as it seems at first glance.

But the same MRK "Karakurt" carries 8 "Caliber". Moreover, it is much better protected. In the sense that the defensive weapons are quite up to par. 2 × 30 mm AK-630M and MANPADS "Verba" (ammunition 8 missiles), and from the third ship of the series and in general "Pantsir-M" are installed. And the 23-mm Lunya cannons are (of course, yes) the last century.

nearly invisible

Well, what about stealth can be compared. "Karakurt" is slightly inferior in length. And in height "Lun" (with its 20 meters) will be higher.

In one online reference edition "Lunya" was put next to "Zamvolt" and the British "Type 45". It's funny, of course. "Zamvolt" in its cells only "Tomahawks" 80 pieces can carry. So - flattered.

Of course, a modern (and not modern) destroyer is not like an ekranoplane. This is the case when speed does not solve anything.

An ekranoplan, in fact, is a desperate attempt to at least somehow oppose the American strike groups with aircraft carriers. Approach imperceptibly (perhaps partially), release missiles and try to go back.

But more likely to die from blows aviation... Since the ekranoplan's maneuverability is not aircraft, and so is the speed. And we admit that there are not so many chances to fight off enemy aircraft.

After all, a cruise missile submarine is a much more effective weapon.

The death sentence

And as a representative of the Ministry of Defense said directly and honestly in 2011, when signing the death warrant for ekranoplanes:

“Now the fleet has many other serious tasks, not as daring as before. We prefer not to build illusions anymore. "

Indeed, in our time, it is better to leave illusion behind. A huge plane, or a ship - yes, it was an achievement that a country that could afford it. But today's Russia is not the USSR. And the best confirmation of this can be the official answer of the Deputy Director of the Department of the Aviation Industry to our reader, who made the corresponding official request about ekranoplanes.

Actually, that's all. The ekranoplan became history from the times of the Soviet Union. And the Patriot Park in Derbent will be the only place where you can see this gigantic and impressive, but far from effective apparatus.

Comments

[Woodman]

If the military use of ekranoplan is a moot point, then why did neither the USSR, nor the Russian Federation, nor other countries try to use the capabilities of ekranoplanes for cargo and passenger transportation?

[vvvjak]

Quote: Lesovik

then why did neither the USSR, nor the Russian Federation, nor other countries try to use the capabilities of ekranoplanes for cargo and passenger transportation?

The article has an answer to your question - not effective compared to aviation.

[Trapp1st]

not efficient compared to aviation.

It is not unambiguous, if you take the Mriya plane, which can take 200 tons, there is something to think about, but the plan screen may have a higher carrying capacity than the plane, i.e. to transfer the same volume of cargo, more flights will have to be made. In addition, special infrastructure is needed for such cargo-lifting aircraft, and the plan screen has the ability to use ports and cover the distance by land. And there is already a question of advantages over water transport.

[vvvjak]

Quote: Trapp1st

In addition, special infrastructure is required for such payload aircraft.

Likewise, the ekranoplan also requires a separate infrastructure for maintenance. It is not for nothing that the USSR could not decide for a long time whether it was an aircraft or a ship (respectively, who is responsible for the operation of the Air Force or the Navy).

Quote: Trapp1st

and the plan screen has the ability to use ports

If we take specifically "Lun", then no.

Quote: Trapp1st

And there is already a question of advantages over water transport.

The ekranopln has a critical dependence of operation on the roughness of the sea, therefore it was tested in the conditions of a relatively calm Caspian Sea.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Trapp1st

In addition, special infrastructure is needed for such cargo-lifting aircraft, and the plan screen has the ability to use ports and cover distances by land.

The large-capacity ekranoplan sits only on water. After that, it needs to be unloaded - that is, an equipped port is also needed. And deliver goods to their destination, which will not necessarily be near the water.

Quote: Trapp1st

but the plan screen may have a higher carrying capacity than the plane, i.e. to transfer the same volume of cargo, you will need to make more flights

May be. It may not be. The problem is that for ekranoplanes, the carrying capacity is often confused with the difference between the maximum take-off weight and the empty weight, forgetting about the fuel.

[Aag]

Quote: Alexey RA

Quote: Trapp1st

In addition, special infrastructure is needed for such cargo-lifting aircraft, and the plan screen has the ability to use ports and cover distances by land.

The large-capacity ekranoplan sits only on water. After that, it needs to be unloaded - that is, an equipped port is also needed. And deliver goods to their destination, which will not necessarily be near the water.

Quote: Trapp1st

but the plan screen may have a higher carrying capacity than the plane, i.e. to transfer the same volume of cargo, you will need to make more flights

May be. It may not be. The problem is that for ekranoplanes, the carrying capacity is often confused with the difference between the maximum take-off weight and the empty weight, forgetting about the fuel.

As far as I remember, ekranoplanes have everything in order with this: starting, reaching the mode are fuel-intensive, then, much more economical than aviation, up to comparison with planing vessels.
Sorry, "Youth Technique" came to mind.

[EvilLion]

Aviation is economical when it flies in a rarefied atmosphere; it is no sideways to ekranoplanes.

[Aag]

Quote: EvilLion

Aviation is economical when it flies in a rarefied atmosphere; it is no sideways to ekranoplanes.

It is still necessary to rise to the rarefied atmosphere. EP is not necessary.

[EvilLion]

Well, yes, that for the liners the best echelons are exactly 10-11 thousand and slow planes are driven from there. If we are to fly by plane, then it is far away, so the climb will not be significant in time.

[Piramidon]

8 of his engines will burn more kerosene than he will carry cargo.

[IC]

WIGs cannot be used in international waters, because there is no set of international rules and conventions for them.

[The Siberian barber]

Quote: vvvjak

Quote: Lesovik

then why did neither the USSR, nor the Russian Federation, nor other countries try to use the capabilities of ekranoplanes for cargo and passenger transportation?

The article has an answer to your question - not effective compared to aviation.

Obviously: speeds are lower than the plane, in terms of the total salvo, less than the ship
But the flight of thought, creativity, search and the ability / ability to realize ideas, people, CREATED, and not "stupidly buy" is admirable ...

[Evil Booth]

dragging the ekranoplan can pick up a thousand infantrymen AT LEAST WHERE in full gear and, going below the radio horizon, drop them, again, anywhere. and if there are mountains and if you pour out from a height, then it means to substitute realistically and not theoretically. and if the airfield is suppressed how to throw such masses? in fact, il76 is more than 2000 km and a thousand infantrymen are not particularly ... here and again, that's all ... Russia is big and it is necessary to throw regiments. so that it is faster than there will be a nearby car. 8/8/8
Shl and who said that it cannot extinguish fires? so be200 so they are different ..
maybe not and maybe vice versa. especially when flying on instruments on a course machine.

[In a d and m]

And what about physics ?!
The difference between an ekranoplan and an aircraft is that it flies, "leaning" on the boundary layer, the air density in which is three times higher than under the wing of an aircraft at the same speed. From this it follows that with the same dead weight and engine thrust, the ekranoplan will lift three times more load. Or that transporting a ton of cargo by an ekranoplane will require three times less fuel than an airplane. This is a rough estimate. He is not picky about the airfield.
EP, in my opinion, could be irreplaceable along the North. Mor. Paths.

[Civil]

Another artifact of the disappeared high-tech Soviet civilization ... rest in peace.

[EvilLion]

Yes, in the USSR they also knew how to master and saw.

[Captain45]

Quote: Civil

Another artifact of the disappeared high-tech Soviet civilization ...

One question: if, according to you, the civilization is high-tech, then why did it disappear? Is this not a sign that a more high-tech civilization has arrived? The squeak defeated the bow and arrow, the machine gun defeated the squeak, and the vigorous loaf covered everyone.

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Captain45

Quote: Civil

Another artifact of the disappeared high-tech Soviet civilization ...

One question: if, according to you, the civilization is high-tech, then why did it disappear? Is this not a sign that a more high-tech civilization has arrived? The squeak defeated the bow and arrow, the machine gun defeated the squeak, and the vigorous loaf covered everyone.

Roman also disappeared, and the world forgot what it means to "wash", even kings stank, and in Rome the last plebeian was cleaner than any European aristocrat until the 18th century. I will not write about the structure of the army and other achievements, not about that, but talking about the fact that a developed civilization died and barbarians came to its place, feasted on a corpse for a long time, and then slipped into the dark ages.

[Captain45]

Quote: Vol4ara

the speech about the fact that a developed civilization died and barbarians came to its place, feasted on a corpse for a long time, and then slipped into the dark ages.

Well, yes, of course the barbarians, who along the way, so about by the way, build floating nuclear power plants, hypersonic missiles and even, damn them, after collapse and devouring, managed to make their own DGZTA for new ships.
Isn't this crying of Yaroslavna about “untimely, untimely for whom did you leave us!” Is not enough? If you go constantly looking back, you will not go far. Maximum to the first fossa.

[Vol4ara]

Quote: Captain45

Quote: Vol4ara

the speech about the fact that a developed civilization died and barbarians came to its place, feasted on a corpse for a long time, and then slipped into the dark ages.

Well, yes, of course the barbarians, who along the way, so about by the way, build floating nuclear power plants, hypersonic missiles and even, damn them, after collapse and devouring, managed to make their own DGZTA for new ships.
Isn't this crying of Yaroslavna about “untimely, untimely for whom did you leave us!” Is not enough? If you go constantly looking back, you will not go far. Maximum to the first fossa.

These are mere pennies that are now being built, and if you dig around, then half of these pennies are from the development of the USSR. Even your own dgzta could do it? Is it a shame for the largest country in the world that we could do it just now? We cannot build a floating dock ... We now had to build skyscrapers on the Moon, and not frantically try to find components for ships

[Andrey Nenakhov]

who along the way, so about by the way, are building floating nuclear power plants, hypersonic missiles and this is again still SOVIET developments !!!!

[U-58]

Did not have time. The military theme was not developed, it did not reach the civil one, because everything collapsed ..

[KERMET]

A similar picture is with Soviet hydrofoils - fuel inefficiency. How the Russian market reality came, they almost disappeared

[ccsr]

Quote: KERMET

How the Russian market reality came, they almost disappeared

For civilian needs, perhaps. But for military purposes, hydrofoils, in my opinion, are of interest even now:

Small anti-submarine hydrofoil ships of the Sokol project were intended to support the deployment of the fleet forces, protection of naval bases, protection of attack ships and convoys, search and destruction of enemy submarines in coastal areas.
In total, for the needs of the Soviet fleet at the Production Association "More" in the city of Feodosia, three ships were built in the period from 1981 to 1987, two of which are now part of the Russian Navy and one was transferred to the Ukrainian Navy, but officially into service so was not accepted.

http://korabley.net/news/voennye_korabli_na_podvodnykh_kryljakh/2012-12-04-1326
The Navy will correct if this is not the case - perhaps the information is outdated, or the concept has changed.

[nerd.su]

Quote: KERMET

A similar picture is with Soviet hydrofoils - fuel inefficiency. How the Russian market reality came, they almost disappeared

The hydrofoils have nothing to do with it. River transport in general turned out to be not the lot with the development of the road network. He lost to used European buses, which operate all year round, while navigation lasts at least three to four months, the rest of the time brings only losses. The area of ​​river transport is now tourism. An exception is ferries to somewhere in Naryan-Mar, and the rivers of Siberia and the Far East.

[KERMET]

Yes, I just lost in a strange way - even before the development of this very road network

[nerd.su]

Quote: KERMET

Yes, I just lost in a strange way - even before the development of this very road network

Well, now the liberal whining will begin that there are no normal roads in Russia. I don't know where you live, but in the Perm Territory, the appearance of the Perm-Berezniki road with the Chusovsky Bridge and the death of high-speed passenger traffic along the Kama are very well linked.
And in the Far East and Siberia, meteors may still hold out. At least in 2012, I still found it.

[Andrey sh]

Well, yes - one bridge with the road connected hundreds of settlements along both banks of the river ... Don't talk nonsense - at most they have reduced the traffic flow by a hundred people a day. And the abolition of high-speed transport along the rivers ruined hundreds of small villages, and even small towns. None of them will make a detour for 30-50 km across the bridge when 3-5 km on the water. The boat will be enough for such a distance. And when the hook is 200-300 km by land instead of 50 by water, it is easier to move ... And there are very few bridges on rivers, especially large ones.

[nerd.su]

Quote: Andrey sh

Well, yes - hundreds of settlements along both banks of the river have connected one bridge with the road ... Don't talk nonsense - they have reduced the traffic flow by a hundred people a day at most.

Did you understand what you said? Freight traffic decreased by 100 people - horses, people mixed in a heap ...
One bridge with a road made it possible to move almost 3 dozen buses a day from the industrial hub Solikamsk-Berezniki to Perm. That is, about 600-1000 people per day one way, depending on occupancy, with an average flight duration of 4 hours with 8-10 stops on the route along one coast, not counting stops in the city districts and this is all year round. Against 2-3 meteors Berezniki-Perm - at most 300-350 people one way, a flight with 5-6 stops on both sides lasting at least 6 hours during the navigation period, that is, four months. Moreover, he arrives at the outskirts of the regional center, which is plus an hour and a half more time with a couple of transfers.
And that's not counting the number of personal cars that has grown many times over. The economy is not in favor of high-speed ships.
And small settlements along the river were connected not by meteors, but by small motor ships and boats. Now there are roads to all, except for some summer cottages. There are ferries in the summer. So there are no hooks on this particular route; others need to be discussed separately.

[faiver]

have you tried to use the capabilities of ekranoplanes for cargo and passenger transportation?

- not cost-effective ...

[Vladimir Vladimirovich S]

The answer is simple, the costs are not feeble, for freight ....

[Viktor Sergeev]

Have you read inattentively? The cost of transporting the same cargo with an ekranoplan is higher than that of an aircraft. Economy. By the way, ekranoplans tend to take off higher and fall if a pilot makes a mistake, plus salt water is an aggressive environment and requires either very expensive materials or even more expensive maintenance, like seaplanes.

[ccsr]

Quote: Victor Sergeev

plus salt water is an aggressive environment and requires either very expensive materials or even more expensive maintenance, like seaplanes.

And flocks of cormorants and seagulls above the water would lead to such an accident rate that it would not seem enough even in peacetime.

[EvilLion]

When this fool at low altitude with hundreds of passengers kisses, who will answer? The plane at 10000 meters has at least time to find the place of an emergency landing and reach it.

[vkl.47]

As a means of combat, of course, it will not destroy any attack aircraft from the air, or a drone.

[Andrey sh]

Let the drone catch up first. And the plane over the sea will first find it - the same aircraft carrier from Space is even more visible, but the task of aiming the heads of a ballistic missile at it has not yet been properly solved - even the atomic charge does not play very well.

[zenion]

Lesovik. Everything is very simple, if the USA does not have this, then Russia does not need it either.

[Laksamana besar]

Poseidon will have to ask permission for the posting.

[Alien From]

How many minds worked, how much money was spent, all down the drain. Although, this is a payment for progress.

[vvvjak]

Quote: Alien From

How many minds worked, how much money was spent, all down the drain. Although, this is a payment for progress.

This is a worldwide problem. I recall an episode from the movie "The Aviator" in which Howard Hughes tells in court how much budget money the United States spent on the development of unnecessary aircraft.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Alien From

How many minds worked, how much money was spent, all down the drain. Although, this is a payment for progress.

Even the money invested in Zumwalt will pay off over time. At the moment, though, many consider the ego to be "hopeless."

[EvilLion]

With the same success one "Burke" could be converted.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: EvilLion

With the same success one "Burke" could be converted.

As well as to make a coastal defense missile corvette from Popovka.

[Egoza]

Quote: Alien From

How many minds worked, how much money was spent, all down the drain.

But BEAUTIFUL! Maybe at least they would have filmed in a movie, in some fantasy!

[Alien From]

I agree with you, seemingly power in the flesh! And the frame of the photo with the shooting of anti-ship missiles!

[Dante Alighieri]

There is such an old strategy called World in Conflict. In it, instead of disintegrating into parts, the USSR unleashed a war with the United States. Screenplanes were used there for an attack on the coast of Norway and a Soviet landing. Perhaps, this was one of the strongest moments in the whole game. At least in memory, he was deposited firmly

[Okolotochny]

In my youth, I watched the flight of this monster, though not in the vicinity, I was on the beach, and he walked several kilometers away. But the hum over the sea was noble.

[Aag]

Quote: Egoza

Quote: Alien From

How many minds worked, how much money was spent, all down the drain.

But BEAUTIFUL! Maybe at least they would have filmed in a movie, in some fantasy!

Not in science fiction, but in history! It will be difficult to explain to the current generation the value of this product (neither sell nor return the invested loot). But, we must!
Those who try to characterize the creation of this apparatus by sawing, should be interested in the history of creation, production. Estimate the available potential of the country. Yes, just a flight of engineering. In the end, "Buran" flew once. promoted!
Definitely, like a monument to Soviet engineering! Maybe it's good that he did not become either a murderer or a huckster. In the patriotic plan, in different ways, better than the Yeltsin Center ...

[EvilLion]

He saw cut and saw cut, the design bureau mastered the means, and he did not care that the product was uncompetitive.

"Buran" flew once, "Shuttle" flew many times, and as a result completely failed all plans of the program. Any reason that Buran would have performed better? This is despite the fact that such a technique, as it greatly reduces the requirements for the training of cosmonauts, that is, allows you to take passengers without special. preparation is very necessary. Now, however, robotization somewhat reduces this problem.

[tihonmarine]

We look at the ekranoplan from the height of our time, but at the technology of those times when it was created. For the present time, this is archaism, an unnecessary expensive undertaking. But time will pass and about "Lun" and ekranoplanes will be remembered when modern technologies and new ideas appear, just as it was with the submarine "Nautilus" of Captain Nemo, Jules Verne.

[ccsr]

Quote: tihonmarine

But time will pass and about "Lun" and ekranoplans will be remembered when modern technologies and new ideas appear,

I think the problem is not in technology, but in the fact that ekranoplans, due to speed, will often be the culprits of accidents at sea, given the traffic of sea transport, which is constantly growing. Its mass and lack of brakes will not allow you to quickly avoid a collision with any yacht or small ship. Well, you cannot run a Formula One car on the ring road or into the city - it simply cannot avoid accidents with other, slower cars in heavy traffic.
This was known in Soviet times, which is why the project was rejected by naval sailors in the first place.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: ccsr

the problem is not in technology, but in the fact that ekranoplans, due to their speed, will often be the culprits of accidents at sea, taking into account the traffic of sea transport, which is constantly growing.

In your own way you are right, everything is so. Only the Ekranoplan is a ship, this is a weapon that will be used in a war, when there is no place for yachts on the sea routes, and sea transportation will only be convoys. And you will have to work not in the Baltic, the Black Sea and the straits, but in the open seas and oceans, in the vastness. In the closed seas and in the narrows, the "small fry" should work. They will be needed, and so far they are not in demand, but time does not pass, but flies. All is holy time.

[ccsr]

Quote: tihonmarine

Only the Ekranoplan is a ship, this is a weapon that will be used in a war, when there is no place for yachts on the sea routes, and sea transportation will only be convoys.

Yes, there will not be such a war that convoys are required - everything will pass so quickly that even ekranoplanes will not have time to load missiles and withdraw them from bases.

Quote: tihonmarine

They will be needed, and so far they are not in demand, but time does not pass, but flies.

Due to the fact that time "RUNS", more and more traditional means of war will wither away, because they are being replaced by other systems capable of hitting quickly at great distances.
Remember the war in Yugoslavia - if the Americans wanted to end the war quickly, then believe me they would have found so many cruise missiles to smash Belgrade to pieces, and not destroy electoral targets. The same is with Tbilisi - already on the first day we could completely destroy all important objects of the Georgian capital, and the war would have ended immediately. True, there was a lot of stench in the world, but to fight, it was not for you to eat chakhokh, as the late Georgian politician would say ...

[EvilLion]

The cruise missile was created for nuclear weapons, for all the time the United States produced less than 10000 "tomahawks". Compared to battleship ammunition, this is just about nothing. The hypothetical separation of Belgrade would leave the United States without a CD at all.

[ccsr]

Quote: EvilLion

The hypothetical separation of Belgrade would leave the United States without the CD at all.

You don't seem to know how the American CRs were used then (according to their own data):

1991 - Operation Desert Storm to liberate Kuwait from Iraqi troops, 282 cruise missiles were fired.
1996 - Operation Desert Strike against Iraq to protect the Kurds, 44 cruise missiles were fired.
1998 - Operation Desert Fox to destroy industrial facilities in Iraq. which could be used to manufacture weapons of mass destruction, 370 cruise missiles were fired.
1999 - Operation Allied Force to end the genocide of the Albanians in Kosovo, about 700 cruise missiles were used.
2001 - Operation Enduring Freedom against terrorists in Afghanistan, about 600 cruise missiles were used.
2003 - Operation Iraqi Freedom to overthrow Saddam Hussein, about 700 cruise missiles were used.
2011 - Operation Zarya Odyssey to overthrow Muammar Gaddafi, more than 100 cruise missiles.

So if 1999 missiles with non-nuclear weapons were fired in Belgrade during the day in 400, I am sure that this war would have ended immediately - I think so.

[EvilLion]

And where did you get the idea that 400 KR would have smashed a large city? And how it fundamentally differs from carpet bobbing with a couple of hundred B-17s. And so operations with the waste of several percent of the missile release over several years, this, of course, is strong.

[ccsr]

Quote: EvilLion

And where did you get the idea that 400 KR would have smashed a large city?

First of all, you need to know where to hit. In Moscow, one fire at the Chagino substation paralyzed the work of a quarter of the capital, and this was without bombing.

Quote: EvilLion

And how it fundamentally differs from carpet bobbing with a couple of hundred B-17s.

Cheaper and less losses would be.

Quote: EvilLion

And so operations with the waste of several percent of the missile release over several years, this, of course, is strong.

Why did you have to salt them? In addition, by this time (1999), we already knew how to fight the American CDs, so they were useless against us. Therefore, the direct expense for these missiles was just natural, taking into account the start of their release and the refreshment of stocks of such weapons in warehouses.

[Valery Slavsky]

Dear, I inform you, the USSR Navy, headed by Commander-in-Chief S.G. Gorshkov, really supported the serial construction and operation of ekranoplanes, 6 units were built, a separate division was formed in the Caspian Flotilla. For a decade, the main opponent of the construction was the Minister of Shipbuilding B. Butoma. I propose to discuss the use of ekranoplanes in rescue operations at sea, servicing communications between small sea cities in inaccessible regions of the Russian Federation, urgent delivery of goods (especially large-sized ones) to places where there are no airfields. - with a long range and hypersound, delivery of troops and equipment to the sea coast. All critical remarks mention a single flight of an ekranoplan, and after all, any military operation is planned as an action of heterogeneous forces. It's just that now there is no money either for large NKs, or for modern anti-submarine aircraft, nina ekranoplanes, etc. Almost all military equipment is being modernized, probably now it is optimal.

[ccsr]

Quote: Valery Slavsky

Dear, I inform you, the USSR Navy, headed by Commander-in-Chief S.G. Gorshkov, really supported the serial construction and operation of ekranoplanes, 6 units were built, a separate division was formed in the Caspian Flotilla.

Do you think that all of Gorshkov's decisions were for the good of our country? I don’t think so, which is why the fate of this product is sad - a huge amount of money was thrown in, and at the exit there was zero.

Quote: Valery Slavsky

For a decade, the main opponent of the construction was the Minister of Shipbuilding B. Butoma.

It is quite possible that the shipbuilding base is not suitable for aircraft construction and this was the reason for such a reaction from Butoma, because the ekranoplan is essentially a low-flying aircraft.

Quote: Valery Slavsky

I propose to discuss the use of ekranoplanes in rescue operations at sea, service of communication between small sea cities in inaccessible regions of the Russian Federation, urgent delivery of goods (especially large-sized ones) to places where there are no airfields.

Are you sure that you will find a customer for these products in civilian structures, taking into account the cost and lack of infrastructure for ekranoplanes? I doubt that there will be such people, even if they have extra money.

Quote: Valery Slavsky

.In the military version:

In the military version, the prospects are even more vague than in the civilian industry - the Ministry of Defense will not take these ekranoplanes into service, because there is not a lot of money there, and they do not need this hemorrhoids.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Valery Slavsky

Dear, I inform you, the USSR Navy, headed by Commander-in-Chief S.G. Gorshkov, really supported the serial construction and operation of ekranoplanes, 6 units were built, a separate division was formed in the Caspian Flotilla.

Everything is correct. Just to finally understand the flawed concept of the rocket-carrying ekranoplan, it was necessary to try to conduct a training attack on the AUG - at least on ours from 1143. And in the Caspian, yes, everything was fine.

Quote: Valery Slavsky

I propose to discuss the use of ekranoplanes in rescue operations at sea

Which are usually carried out during the excitement, excluding landing and takeoff of the ekranoplan.
In addition, the fleet already had an An-12 with a boat landing along with the crew. Which could take on board the victims and tow liferafts.

Quote: Valery Slavsky

service of communication between small sea cities in inaccessible regions of the Russian Federation

Expensive. It's easier and cheaper to send an ordinary ship - let it drip.

Quote: Valery Slavsky

urgent delivery of goods (especially large-sized) to places where there are no airfields.

But at the same time there is a water space sufficient for landing and take-off of an ekranoplan, as well as infrastructure for its unloading.

Quote: Valery Slavsky

In the military version: high fuel consumption - installation of modern economical engines, missile weapons - with a long range and hypersonic

It is cheaper to order a squadron of more multifunctional Su-30 or Su-34 for the Navy.

Quote: Valery Slavsky

delivery of troops and equipment to the sea coast

Shall we throw a product built according to aviation standards on an unequipped shore?

[IC]

For technical and legal reasons, ekranoplanes cannot be operated in international waters.

[ccsr]

Quote: IMS

For technical and legal reasons, ekranoplanes cannot be operated in international waters.

In peacetime, this is really so. In wartime, all restrictions are lifted and either side has the right to choose the weapon it deems necessary to defeat the enemy. By the way, it is forbidden to interfere with the operation of GPS navigation satellites, but in reality there are already facts when their work was deliberately violated during the conduct of hostilities.

[Andrey sh]

An anti-ship missile on this principle is quite an option if it allows you to increase the mass of the warhead several times. But here speed is also important - I'm not sure that the same screen effect will be on supersonic.

[Daniil Konovalenko]

And the car is beautiful! I don’t want to write about the necessity, the unnecessaryness, the question is controversial ... and the idea is good .. Can it be implemented somehow differently and in a different area?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Daniil Konovalenko

Can it be embodied somehow differently and in a different area?

More likely in a different performance, but it will appear! Hopefully.

[U-58]

And five blazes debate ...
The ekranopoan is good because it is great.
Let's take the same Caliber and a hypothetical Mosquito-2 with a range of not 120 km, but ... 301 km. Or even 502 km. The dimension of Lun, but what is there Lun, the Caspian Monster allows you to place on it any - no air defense complex.
And now new challenges have been parried. In every way, ekranopolan is an order of magnitude faster than a destroyer-frigate-cruiser.
Rapid advance to the target (to a specific target, and not to the "duty"), attack, retreat.
And no one is insured against losses. Losses are inevitable.
Only it is easier for the ekranoplane to depict a quick retreat to the base than the frigate.
Again, no one prohibited him from air cover. And delivery of DRGs to the enemy's shore, evacuation.
For the Baltic and Black Sea theaters, the topic is most relevant.
Again, search and rescue.
Delivery of the wounded to the hospital ....

[Andrey sh]

Is he needed there? He dragged and dumped a dozen 2 Calibers at the launch point, which no one can consider dangerous and went back. Moreover, he threw out the containers, and the launch took place in a couple of minutes - you will be too busy tracking the missiles.

[U-58]

Is it sho, containers are floats?))))

[Trapp1st]

A relic of a bygone era or a final judgment

Shards of a great civilization.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Trapp1st

Shards of a great civilization.

Tribute to the era of Soviet science and technology.

[ccsr]

Quote: tihonmarine

Tribute to the era of Soviet science and technology.

I think that this is evidence that in the USSR everything could be done at the world level and even higher.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: ccsr

I think that this is evidence that in the USSR everything could be done at the world level and even higher.

I completely agree. JV Stalin left us a good legacy.

[iouris]

In general, there is no strategy.

[alstr]

Actually, the EP has one more advantage over any ship - it can be transferred from one theater of operations to another by land or by internal river routes within one or two days. And faster than any ship.
In conditions of blocking the transition from one fleet to another, this is one of the exits.

In addition, you can fasten the air defense complex (or rather, simply attach aircraft missiles for self-defense). Something like R-73. You can screw a dozen others like that.

Therefore, as a striking agent - quite a variant of the same "Karakuts".

In principle, if you think over the tactics of application, then it is quite a good option for replacing small strike ships.

If you take the same Lun. Based on it. you can shove up to 16 calibers Plus add 10-20 R-73 missiles and you can also have a couple of long-range R-33s (you can replace part of the R-73).

As a result, we get a strike SHIP in strike capabilities stronger than Karakut and with wider redeployment capabilities.

In addition, there is another plus here - the engines. Let's remember that we have problems with the production of ship engines. But there is a well-established production of aircraft engines.

Compared with aviation, there is also a plus. Only strategists can take such a number of calibers (while their security is no better than the Lunya's (only the Tu-95 has 23-mm cannons), but nevertheless we are not talking about their security.

As for the visibility, it can also be reduced to the parameters of the ship (the first thing that comes to mind is to put the missiles in the hull and work on the contours of the upper part. Besides, here we were recently assured in several articles that an aircraft carrier can also be hidden in the ocean , and the EP is still much less.
So this is what happens. A slower and larger aircraft carrier can be carried unnoticed, but the ekranoplan is not? Double standards, however.

There is one more advantage of the ekranoplan - it is a smaller crew than on a ship and, in principle, an unmanned version can be made on the basis of it. Here the option of working in a flock is possible.
Plus the turnover (again, here recently in some article they wrote about the TU-160 like) is also higher (i.e. recharge faster).

Those. there is an option to create unmanned variants of a slightly smaller size (for example, for 4-8 calibers), which can be the same, but with control equipment and crew. At the same time, drones can be lost from enemy fire.

Total. If desired, you can find many advantages and options for using ekranoplanes. And you can scrape together a lot of cons.
There would be desire and fantasy.

[Lannan Shi]

Quote: alstr

Actually, EP has another advantage over any ship

But the EP is not a ship. Whatever it was, but he flies, not swims. And it is more correct to compare it with an aircraft, and not with ships. But in comparison with the aircraft, the EP has more minuses than pluses. And if EP is compared with seaplanes, then practically nothing remains of its advantages.

[alstr]

With whom do we compare the EP and with which aircraft?
It turns out that if we compare with fighter-bombers, then they are in the limit of 3 pieces. caliber missiles are taken (and the range will be small).
Those. in order for them to need 2-3 sorties in order to fire the same 6 missiles (and if Lun is re-equipped with calibers, then more).
Only TU-95 and TU-160 can take a comparable number of missiles.
And the only advantage of aircraft in this case is speed.
And here the comparison with the ship rises - With Karakut. And it is with ships of this class that EPs will have an advantage in speed and striking power. Plus the ability to quickly relocate from one theater of operations to another (for example, try to relocate something from the Black Sea Fleet to Syria if the straits are closed?)

[Parabelum]

In terms of shock, Lun loses to Karakurt in terms of shock.
Small rocket ship of project 22800 "Karakurt":
Tactical strike weapons: 1 × UVP 3S14 8 cells, for "Onyx", "Caliber-NK"
Artillery: 1 × 76,2 mm AK-176MA,
2 x 12,7 mm Kord machine gun mounts
Anti-aircraft artillery: 2 × 30 mm ZAU AK-630M and MANPADS "Igla-S", "Verba" (ammunition load of 8 missiles),
(from the third ship Pantsir-M)

Ekranoplan "Lun"
Missile weapons 3 × 2 - PU anti-ship missiles 3M-80 "Mosquito
Anti-aircraft artillery 2 × 4 - 23 mm UKU-9K-502-II

"Karakurt" is smaller in size than "Lun", it is easier to relocate it.

[alstr]

In its original form, yes.
But if you change 6 Mosquitoes to 8-16 Gauges (which will fit in size, most likely 12 pieces will fit) and screw up aircraft missiles for self-defense.
That will be stronger.

And about relocation: How to relocate Karakut from the Baltic to the Pacific Ocean if the straits are all closed (i.e. if we have a conflict with NATO)?
The answer is no way. And EP is possible. And fast enough.
Yes, even if it is possible, then one and the same path (for example, if you go through the NSR - this is about 6 thousand km), the EP will pass in one or two days with 3-4 refueling.
And Karakut will also take about a month.

[nerd.su]

Quote: alstr

Plus the ability to quickly relocate from one theater of operations to another (for example, try to relocate something from the Black Sea Fleet to Syria if the straits are closed?)

I am one of the supporters of ekranoplanes, but I still don’t understand how an ECP like Lun can be moved from the Black Sea to Syria if the straits are closed? Inland routes to the North Sea and around Europe?

[alstr]

Through Iran and Iraq. Repeat the Caliber path.

[nerd.su]

Quote: alstr

Through Iran and Iraq. Repeat the Caliber path.

Come on. Wouldn't it be difficult to name the route more precisely?

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Lannan Shi

But the EP is not a ship. Whatever it was, but he flies, not swims.

He does not fly or swim, but hovers above the water in a pillow between the water and the body. "Lockers" and "skis" - speed craft with a speed of 40 knots cannot be called "floating" either, but they are by no means flying machines.

[Kostya Lavinyukov]

So why aren't they screwed onto the Tu-95 R-73?

[alstr]

This is a big question. 2-4 pcs for self defense could screw on. here either it is impossible physically (for example, everything is by weight in the butt) or just such inertia of thinking.
They don't convert our old tanks into guided drones, but they could (China is converting it). So it is here.

[Avior]

and how to transfer it overland? to find several thousand kilometers of flat surface without any obstacles?

[alstr]

Easily. For information - the effect of the screen is valid up to 50 meters (depending on the size of the EP. For Lun it is 10-15 meters). But even if so, then there are roads. Here you can over them. Working out a route and making a schedule is a matter of technique. And do not forget that they will fly empty without load.

Suffice it to recall how the Malyutok submarine was transported to the Far East. It will be easier here.

[alstr]

And do not forget that completely different rules apply in wartime. It doesn't matter if we destroy something in nature or not. We must - then we will destroy. We'll think about the rest later.

[Avior]

There are turns on the road, pillars, buildings, etc.
Something can be pulled into the engines from the ground, this is not a flight, but a game of roulette

[garri-lin]

About flying over the road, is it such a mega-steep banter? Or do you really suggest?

[tlauicol]

Quote: alstr

Easily. For information - the effect of the screen is valid up to 50 meters (depending on the size of the EP. For Lun it is 10-15 meters). But even if so, then there are roads. Here you can over them. Working out a route and making a schedule is a matter of technique. And do not forget that they will fly empty without load.

Suffice it to recall how the Malyutok submarine was transported to the Far East. It will be easier here.

Hmm, the case is not even difficult, hopeless. I hope you are not a government official or an engineer? And then it becomes very scary for the country

[Alexey RA]

Quote: alstr

Suffice it to recall how the Malyutok submarine was transported to the Far East. It will be easier here.

Oh-ho-ho ... but it's nothing that a submarine type "M" initially were designed for the possibility of rail transportation in assembled form. Because of this, they had such shitty performance characteristics - because the main thing was to cram the hull into the railroad dimension.

[alstr]

It's a matter of principle. There are preset parameters. Then we lay the route on the map. Then we pass it through the area. Where necessary we straighten or simply set a certain mode of movement. Determine stopping points, reserve places where the network is possible, where it is impossible, where it will be necessary to block traffic and for how much, etc. In principle, nothing complicated, but it is quite painstaking work.
You just need to do it once and only check difficult places periodically.
You just need to remember that this is how the air routes were formed.

[faiver]

The machine made sense 30-40 years ago, now its combat value is zero, the only place where the real use of ekranoplanes can be considered is the rescue operations of the fleet ...

[your1970]

Quote: faiver

the real use of ekranoplanes is the rescue operations of the fleet ...

All rescue operations are usually necessary in a storm - when the EDS are not flying

[Brturin]

Quote: Lannan Shi

But the EP is not a ship. Whatever it was, but he flies, not swims. And it is more correct to compare it with the aircraft

Do hovercraft fly or float? for me, if you compare it with them ... there were also pr. 1206 "Kalmar", 12321 "Jeyran" ... the states of LCAC 100 ... had an "Eaglet" ... boats for air. the cushion needs constant operation of the engine that pumps the cushion, for an ekranoplan it works only at startup ...

[Constanty]

It may be an anachronism, but impressive, even as a rusty wreck.

[KJIETyc]

"We don't even stutter about stealth, only a satellite with its lenses towards Mars will not see this whopper from space."
Recently, this person argued that the AUG is not a problem under satellites and that seeing an aircraft carrier from orbit is still a task ...

[Pavel57]

Quote: KERMET

A similar picture is with Soviet hydrofoils - fuel inefficiency. How the Russian market reality came, they almost disappeared

All hydrofoils left for Greece in the 90s.

[Laksamana besar]

Not all, Meteors are still running, plus the production of Comets has been resumed and new ones are already in service:

[Pavel57]

Quote: Avior

and how to transfer it overland? to find several thousand kilometers of flat surface without any obstacles?

An ekranoplan can fly above the action of its screen like an airplane, but with a loss of efficiency.

[Avior]

The ekranoplan cannot, the screen effect disappears, it does not fly without it, the maximum jumps
An ekranolet can fly like that, but only theoretically.
seemingly

[Pavel57]

Quote: Alien From

How many minds worked, how much money was spent, all down the drain. Although, this is a payment for progress.

Poogress is not complete without dead-end branches.

[evgen1221]

Technique and progress do not stand still - we now have an armed ekranolette and Bison pillows. They couldn't do it, but they did the Internet and a lot of other things. Progress is trial, error, search for solutions. Our ekranolet is the first and this is its dignity and historical value. I'd like to turn it into a good interesting museum. As a transport and a weapon, at that time it was complicated, expensive, poorly managed. Today, it is possible that the chips would be corrected, but there are cheaper solutions to its problems. In civilian life, I personally cannot imagine a niche for such a size of an ekranolet.

[Pavel57]

Quote: tihonmarine

Quote: Lannan Shi

But the EP is not a ship. Whatever it was, but he flies, not swims.

He does not fly or swim, but hovers above the water in a pillow between the water and the body. "Lockers" and "skis" - speed craft with a speed of 40 knots cannot be called "floating" either, but they are by no means flying machines.

An ekranoplan is a separate type of aircraft. And the ship or plane depends on who made it and according to what standards it was certified

[nerd.su]

Quote: Pavel57

An ekranoplan is a separate type of aircraft

An ekranoplan is a ship. And it is certified by the international maritime organization as a ship ..

[Pavel57]

Quote: alstr

There would be desire and fantasy.

Montenegrins on a small ekranoplan carried drugs along the lake from Albania.

[Old26]

Quote: U-58

And five blazes debate ...
The ekranopoan is good because it is great.

Now, just mini-screen planes can at least be in demand as vehicles or patrol boats. And the big one is the kamikaze. And if in the 80s the shock ekranoplanes had at least some scanty chance to approach the shooting distance, now this chance is not even

Quote: U-58

Let's take the same Caliber and a hypothetical Mosquito-2 with a range of not 120 km, but ... 301 km. Or even 502 km. The dimension of Lun, but what is there Lun, the Caspian Monster allows you to place on it any - no air defense complex.

Of course, you can place some kind of air defense system. The truth is more likely that "none". But how will this complex work? Indeed, unlike the same anti-ship missile system, it also needs an antenna system. Where else are you going to hook such an antenna system? On the vertical stabilizer, where are there already two fairings?
Further. How are you going to shoot these missiles? In a vertical plane? So there is a guarantee that the fired rocket will not break on the vertical stabilizer. After all, the cruising speed of the EP is about 400-450 km / h ???

Quote: U-58

And now new challenges have been parried. In every way, ekranopolan is an order of magnitude faster than a destroyer-frigate-cruiser.
Rapid advance to the target (to a specific target, and not to the "duty"), attack, retreat.
And no one is insured against losses. Losses are inevitable.

Parried? Do you think so? A device that does not have any defensive weapons, can something fend off? Faster than a cruiser, destroyer, frigate - you correctly noted that. Only now the same "Lunya" EMNIP has fuel for 8 or 9 hours of flight when flying at full radius. This means, purely theoretically, that he can hit a target located at a distance of 2000 km from the coast where he is based. The cruiser and other displacement ships can be in the target area for days, waiting for the right moment to strike. EP will be target number 1 for the same AUG, as the most high-speed and missile-dangerous target. This means that they will spot him, if not immediately after leaving the base, then 800-900 kilometers from the same target.
And he still has to "stomp" for an hour before the line of attack. How many times during this time a pair of aircraft on duty with AB will have time to hit such a target

Quote: U-58

Again, no one prohibited him from air cover. And delivery of DRGs to the enemy's shore, evacuation.
For the Baltic and Black Sea theaters, the topic is most relevant.

Yeah. Nobody forbade air cover. Will the enemy watch as a group of fighters accompany this monster?
DRG to land on the shore? This would be the easiest way to send a telephone message to the enemy coastal forces. "They made a landing of saboteurs." Especially in the Baltic, where the distance between the northern and southern shores is from 60 to 200 km, and on both banks is our enemy. Instead of a secret landing - with a roar and noise from the apparatus, which only the deaf-blind-mute operator cannot detect.

Quote: U-58

Again, search and rescue. Delivery of the wounded to the hospital ....

The problem of search and rescue rises in full growth, not in calm weather, but precisely when the excitement is strong enough. How will such a lifeguard sit on the water? how will you get around in the area? And most importantly - how it will RISE. Probably the Rescuer still stands unfinished in Krasnoe Sormovo for a reason?

Quote: alstr

Actually, the EP has one more advantage over any ship - it can be transferred from one theater of operations to another by land or by internal river routes within one or two days. And faster than any ship.
In conditions of blocking the transition from one fleet to another, this is one of the exits.

Impossible. To move on the screen effect, he needs a table-flat surface. And the territory of Russia has never been such a surface
By waterways within 1-2 days: Are you serious. How will you overcome the cascades of hydroelectric power stations on the Volga? And what, we have many rivers connected into a single network and it is possible to transfer the EDS, for example, from the Caspian or Baltic to the North?

Quote: alstr

In addition, you can fasten the air defense complex (or rather, simply attach aircraft missiles for self-defense). Something like R-73. You can screw a dozen others like that.

If you take the same Lun. Based on it. you can shove up to 16 calibers Plus add 10-20 R-73 missiles and you can also have a couple of long-range R-33s (you can replace part of the R-73).

As a result, we get a strike SHIP in strike capabilities stronger than Karakut and with wider redeployment capabilities.

Will they work for you according to the principle of a "spherical horse in a vacuum"? You don't need to point them? Are radar antenna systems no longer needed?
As a result of fantasies, we will get unclear what and the minimum relocation capabilities. Although "Karakurt" is not the best option, it is better than this monster with a bunch of missiles that are not clear how

Quote: alstr

Compared with aviation, there is also a plus. Only strategists can take such a number of calibers (while their security is no better than the Lunya's (only the Tu-95 has 23-mm cannons), but nevertheless we are not talking about their security.

And no one with the TU-95 "Caliber" is planning to launch. And in principle it can take from 8 to 14 cruise missiles with a range almost 8 times greater than the anti-ship "Caliber". so, unlike the "Lunya", he will not have to enter the air defense zone

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Old26

Of course, you can place some kind of air defense system. The truth is more likely that "none". But how will this complex work? Indeed, unlike the same anti-ship missile system, it also needs an antenna system. Where else are you going to hook such an antenna system? On the vertical stabilizer, where are there already two fairings?
Further. How are you going to shoot these missiles? In a vertical plane? So there is a guarantee that the fired rocket will not break on the vertical stabilizer. After all, the cruising speed of the EP is about 400-450 km / h ???

The most important thing is who the ekranoplan will defend against with its R-73? Because it will most likely be beaten by long-range RVVs - the next reincarnation of the Phoenix with a seeker from the AIM-120. And the "half-hundred and fourth" launch range - over a hundred kilometers. And then its four hundred kilograms of live weight dive at 5M at the target ...
Fortunately, the RVV will not have problems with detecting and capturing an ekranoplan - it is difficult to miss a target the size of an RTO, carrying 500-600 km / h without sharp maneuvers.

[alstr]

[quote = Old26]
Of course, you can place some kind of air defense system. The truth is more likely that "none". But how will this complex work? Indeed, unlike the same anti-ship missile system, it also needs an antenna system. Where else are you going to hook such an antenna system? On the vertical stabilizer, where are there already two fairings?
Further. How are you going to shoot these missiles? In a vertical plane? So there is a guarantee that the fired rocket will not break on the vertical stabilizer. After all, the cruising speed of the EP is about 400-450 km / h ???
[/ quote = Old26]

Everything can be simpler. We take an aircraft radar from any modern fighter and install short-range missiles. So the air defense complex is ready for self-defense.
The launch of aircraft missiles is precisely designed for high speeds. We just need to decide - we shoot down is a SELF-DEFENSE complex, and not in order to shoot down everything. With the dimension of the Moon, you can shove 10-20 rockets. And this is forgive all the ammunition of the pair (that is, all of the missiles of the long, medium and short range). The same F-35 has only 4 of them inside.

[quote = Old26]
Parried? Do you think so? A device that does not have any defensive weapons, can something fend off?
[/ quote = Old26]
My question was never answered. Why do planes of comparable sizes Tu-95 and Tu-160 also have no defensive weapons (the Tu-95 has the same 23 mm cannon) and we are not worried about their safety, while the EP should have other problems?
At the same time, strategists shouldn't be able to fly much further.

[quote = Old26]
Faster than a cruiser, destroyer, frigate - you correctly noted that. Only now the same "Lunya" EMNIP has fuel for 8 or 9 hours of flight when flying at full radius. And this means, purely theoretically, that he can hit a target located at a distance of 2000 km from the coast where he is based. The cruiser and other displacement ships can be in the target area for days, waiting for the right moment to strike. EP will be target number 1 for the same AUG, as the most high-speed and missile-dangerous target. This means that they will spot him, if not immediately after leaving the base, then 800-900 kilometers from the same target.
And he still has to "stomp" for an hour before the line of attack. How many times during this time a pair of aircraft on duty with AB will have time to hit such a target
[/ quote = Old26]

It is true that the ship can be in the specified place for days. But this is a double-edged sword.
If the ship is in one place, then it can be easier to destroy. And not from the air, but from under the water - a torpedo in the side and that's it.

Only from your position, what to find a ship, what an ekranoplan - there is no difference (you have a Hawkeye hanging).

[quote = Old26]
The problem of search and rescue rises in full growth, not in calm weather, but precisely when the excitement is strong enough. How will such a lifeguard sit on the water? how will you get around in the area? And most importantly - how it will RISE. Probably the Rescuer still stands unfinished in Krasnoe Sormovo for a reason?
[quote = Old26]
They just didn't give me money on time. And now it probably makes no sense, tk. everything rusted.
They started building a school in our yard (SU-155, which went bankrupt), but they were not given money and the construction was stopped. But now the money was found for the construction, but it was no longer possible to complete it - the concrete structures were damaged. The result is demolition and rebuilding.
It's the same here. Not built on time - alas, but for a landfill.


[quote = Old26]
Impossible. To move on the screen effect, he needs a table-flat surface. And the territory of Russia has never been such a surface
By waterways within 1-2 days: Are you serious. How will you overcome the cascades of hydroelectric power stations on the Volga? And what, we have many rivers connected into a single network and it is possible to transfer the EDS, for example, from the Caspian or Baltic to the North?
[/ quote = Old26]
You have a misconception that you need a flat surface. The same Lun quite flew at an altitude of 15 m. Moreover, the EP can fly over the forest.

In addition, Lun could jump up to 500 m (with difficulty, but he could).
Therefore, passing over the waterway Arkhangelsk-Astrakhan or Azov is not particularly difficult
with PROPER preparation.
In addition, let me remind you that everyone always solves the problem of moving from point A to point B. Everyone calls this differently, but on land there is a task for the march, the pilots have a flight task, and the sailors have a navigational pad.
Just for example. At the military department we solved the problem of the march of the S-300 battalion in the Leningrad region. So, if you think that this is just the shortest way to draw, then it will not work - bridges will not allow. In some places I even had to look for a ford. And we did it all without leaving. Correctly, such a route is first driven completely with the identification of "narrow".
It's the same here. Preparation, preparation and more preparation.

[quote = Old26]
Will they work for you according to the principle of a "spherical horse in a vacuum"? You don't need to point them? Are radar antenna systems no longer needed?
As a result of fantasies, we will get unclear what and the minimum relocation capabilities. Although "Karakurt" is not the best option, it is better than this monster with a bunch of missiles that are not clear how
[/ quote = Old26]
Well, actually there was a guidance station there. And its guidance will be better than the Ship (if you put a similar radar, because it is banal he can raise his radar higher.

[quote = Old26]
And no one with the TU-95 "Caliber" is planning to launch. And in principle it can take from 8 to 14 cruise missiles with a range almost 8 times greater than the anti-ship "Caliber". so, unlike the "Lunya", he will not have to enter the air defense zone
[/ quote = Old26]
Only in this case it is forgotten that you also need to get to the border. Therefore, the problem of self-defense of strategists is present.
I found an article on the same site about the TU-160 defense complex.
https://topwar.ru/118355-problemy-samooborony-tu-160m2-v-strategicheskih-operaciyah-kak-vyzhit-v-groznom-nebe-v-xxi-veka.html

Put the same on the EP, taking into account its features and the problem of self-defense is solved.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: alstr

Just for example. At the military department we solved the problem of the march of the S-300 battalion in the Leningrad region.

Oh yes ... it's just a stone's throw from one position to another, but the route has to be laid around the entire map - because on one road there is a low-capacity bridge, on the other there is a bridge of insufficient height, etc. And we also had the S-125.

[nerd.su]

Quote: Old26

And what, we have many rivers connected into a single network and it is possible to transfer the EDS, for example, from the Caspian or Baltic to the North?

Moscow is a port of five seas, so it is possible to transfer the EP from the Caspian to the North. And from the Baltic, too, is possible, the name of the White Sea-Baltic Canal seems to hint. That's just technically difficult. Gateways and speed channels are not conducive. Disassembled in tow ...

[Old26]

Quote: alstr

As for the visibility, it can also be reduced to the parameters of the ship (the first thing that comes to mind is to put the missiles in the hull and work on the contours of the upper part. Besides, here we were recently assured in several articles that an aircraft carrier can also be hidden in the ocean , and the EP is still much less.
So this is what happens. A slower and larger aircraft carrier can be carried unnoticed, but the ekranoplan is not? Double standards, however.

There are no double standards. The article talked about the possibility of unnoticed for conducting AUG, if he uses a satellite constellation. Then, using the unseen areas of the surface, you can try to do this. The ekranoplan is detected not by satellite reconnaissance (although it too), but mainly by means of radar. So try to hide the EP from the Hokai, which hangs at an altitude of 9 km and looks at targets within a radius of at least 400 km (taking into account its patrolling point about 350-400 km from the aircraft carrier).

Quote: alstr

There is one more advantage of the ekranoplan - it is a smaller crew than on a ship and, in principle, an unmanned version can be made on the basis of it. Here the option of working in a flock is possible.

This is called "Ostap suffered", dear. Now "Lun" will become unmanned and work in a flock. Do you intend to build a "flock" with your own money?

Quote: alstr

Total. If desired, you can find many advantages and options for using ekranoplanes. And you can scrape together a lot of cons.
There would be desire and fantasy.

People have a sea of ​​fantasies. That's just a problem with pluses. There are many more cons. Plus, in fact, only one - speed compared to the ship

Quote: faiver

The machine made sense 30-40 years ago, now its combat value is zero, the only place where the real use of ekranoplanes can be considered is the rescue operations of the fleet ...

Even then, the value was close to zero. And about salvation. "Rescuer" is unfinished. Why don't you tell me?

Quote: BrTurin

Quote: Lannan Shi

But the EP is not a ship. Whatever it was, but he flies, not swims. And it is more correct to compare it with the aircraft

Do hovercraft fly or float? for me, if you compare it with them ... there were also pr. 1206 "Kalmar", 12321 "Jeyran" ... the states of LCAC 100 ... had an "Eaglet" ... boats for air. the cushion needs constant operation of the engine that pumps the cushion, for an ekranoplan it works only at startup ...

Hovercraft are nevertheless connected with the underlying surface .. The ekranoplan nevertheless flies at an altitude of 2-5 meters. But it flies. Therefore, comparison with LA IMHO is more correct than with KVP

Quote: Pavel57

Quote: Avior

and how to transfer it overland? to find several thousand kilometers of flat surface without any obstacles?

An ekranoplan can fly above the action of its screen like an airplane, but with a loss of efficiency.

Not an ekranoplan, but a SCREEN FLYER. And these are two different types of car

[Old26]

Quote: alstr

But even if so, then there are roads. Here you can over them. Working out a route and making a schedule is a matter of technique. And do not forget that they will fly empty without load.

Do you have ekranoplan pilots undergoing training in Formula 1? You are going to follow the "road" at a speed of 400-450 km. But is it okay that the wings that effect the screen will be "outside" the road?

Quote: Alexey RA

Quote: Old26

Of course, you can place some kind of air defense system. The truth is more likely that "none". But how will this complex work? Indeed, unlike the same anti-ship missile system, it also needs an antenna system. Where else are you going to hook such an antenna system? On the vertical stabilizer, where are there already two fairings?
Further. How are you going to shoot these missiles? In a vertical plane? So there is a guarantee that the fired rocket will not break on the vertical stabilizer. After all, the cruising speed of the EP is about 400-450 km / h ???

The most important thing is who the ekranoplan will defend against with its R-73? Because it will most likely be beaten by long-range RVVs - the next reincarnation of the Phoenix with a seeker from the AIM-120. And the "half-hundred and fourth" launch range - over a hundred kilometers. And then its four hundred kilograms of live weight dive at 5M at the target ...
Fortunately, the RVV will not have problems with detecting and capturing an ekranoplan - it is difficult to miss a target the size of an RTO, carrying 500-600 km / h without sharp maneuvers.

From whom to defend - I did not even consider it. Fortunately, I had a chance to visit Kaspiysk on the "Dagdizel" when it was there. It looks of course unrealistic. A real monster. At the same time, you understand that this is a dead end ...

[alstr]

Actually, there is nothing complicated about it. "Over the road" is a rather arbitrary concept. It is clear that it is required to go through the entire route for bottlenecks. But these are solvable problems.
Then again nobody canceled the autopilot.

[Aleks2000]

And not tired? Every month 1-2 articles about him.
Everything has already been described and planned.
An inapplicable branch, when jet engines were already there, and there were no powerful radars, aircraft, missiles ...

[Ryaruav]

this is a dead-end branch of aircraft development

[slavinsk]

I did not understand why the ekranoplan missiles (caliber) whose speed is commensurate with the speed of the ekranoplan. In terms of speed, the caliber is not only inferior to a mosquito, but not even close. An ekranoplan carries a weapon in power almost like a ship, and a speed almost like an airplane. even on ship's radars, it is not visible up to a certain distance, since it flies very low above the water. The article is so-so, to put it mildly.

[Alexey RA]

Quote: slavinsk

An ekranoplan carries a weapon in power almost like a ship, and a speed almost like an airplane. even on ship's radars, it is not visible up to a certain distance, since it flies very low above the water.

The problem is that the adversary doesn't rely on ship radars. Its radar is hanging in the air - and its radio horizon is much further away.
Tales about the invisibility of the ekranoplan could be told to Soviet admirals, who are accustomed to the fact that apart from ship radars, they have no other means of detecting the enemy.

[Old26]

Quote: slavinsk

I did not understand why the ekranoplan missiles (caliber) whose speed is commensurate with the speed of the ekranoplan. In terms of speed, the caliber is not only inferior to a mosquito, but not even close. An ekranoplan carries a weapon in power almost like a ship, and a speed almost like an airplane. even on ship's radars, it is not visible up to a certain distance, since it flies very low above the water. The article is so-so, to put it mildly.

And in each new article, new missiles appear. The next article, which will be in a month or two about ekranoplans, will already contain Zircones (Mosquitoes - there were, Onyxes - there were, Caliber - in this article)

By power almost like a ship... But this is only in relation to strike weapons and not all ships. But this only applies to the drum. Everything else - anti-submarine, anti-aircraft missile - is simply not on ekranoplans.
Ship radars are, excuse me, the last line of defense. The ekranoplanes were built with a view to attacking targets, such as AUG. And they, to the greatest regret, also have AWACS aircraft on board. Therefore, all the talk that he will be invisible, and he cannot be hit - from the evil one. AWACS aircraft patrol at a distance of about 320-400 km from the aircraft carrier. The detection range of such a target as an ekranoplan from an AWACS aircraft will in no way be less than 400 km (offhand). Even if the Mosquito had a range of 500 km, it would take about an hour to reach the launch line. During this time, the duty couples from the AUG would “disassemble” the ekranoplan for parts. Striking the wing with a conventional AIM-120 missile - and the screen effect will come to an end. And hitting the water at a speed of 400-450 km / h is the finish for the ekranoplan

And the articles, as you have correctly written, are repeated from time to time. It's just that there is a certain number of VO users who do not want to understand that this is not a supervunderwaffe of the USSR, but a dead end, and the EP itself of such dimensions with such a weapon on board is a relic of the Cold War.

[Azis]

not as brave as before

That says it all.

[alexandrastafiev]

The article is a lie. Even during the life of Alekseev, the founder of this type of technology, officials watered ekranoplanes as much as they could. Nevertheless, ekranoplans are still being produced. They are used for transporting both people and goods on small rivers and in swampy areas. The ekranoplanes are used by the Ministry of Emergencies and border guards are trying to use them. But there are few of them both in number and in models. And nobody thinks it is too costly or inefficient. It is just that this direction is developing, as well as the overwhelming number of technical projects in our country, with great difficulties.

[tlauicol]

The Ministry of Emergency Situations and the border guards buy boats, all-terrain vehicles, snowmobiles, helicopters, airboats ... And you say "does not develop".
But this crap was abandoned

[Efgen]

Didn't refuse, however. Try.https: //politexpert.net/153669-karelskii-ekranoplan-orion-ispytali-na-ucheniyakh-mchs

[tlauicol]

yeah, the border guards foolishly bought, tried .. spat .. put up for auction .. now for the fourth year they can not sell to anyone, - there are no fools

[Ross xnumx]

First thought on what he saw:

Eagles are thrown here for the broiler chickens

[Oleg Bykov]

You can justify anything you want if you wish, and even more so, if you are interested. I was especially impressed by the arguments about high drag and the operation of engines at sub-optimal modes.

[Mikhail3]

What is a combat ekranoplan and what to compare it with? It is, suddenly, an ekranoplan. And comparing it is a waste of amusement. Well, what is the author of the article mostly busy with. Blah blah blah, no beginning, no end, nothing is said and no conclusions are drawn. Yearning.
Why did the USSR need such a technique? Why has it ceased (or has not ceased) to be relevant? There is not even a hint in the article. The author found some weapons in the ekranoplan, listed it and called it obsolete. Well, yes, outdated. I remembered about stealth ... In general, it is stupid to waste time on this set of uninformative letters.
VO really fades out.

[sifgame]

MI-3 hangs on the 14rd photo)

[Podvodnik]

this giant from space will not be seen only by the satellite, whose lenses are turned towards Mars.

Will see only in the database. How will a satellite find it in the sea? The sea is big. The satellite has a small viewing angle. It is still necessary to fly over this place. Not everything is as simple as it seems.

[Arthur 85]

Hawkeye will see him 10500 kilometers away. And this miracle of technology will not reach any launch line.

[Podvodnik]

Hockey will see him from 10500 kilometers

Well, he will see, and a few hundred other marks. You must classify first. And what will he destroy if he has time to understand what it is? It is necessary to direct the means of destruction. Probably aviation. Fighters. They must take off (or duty forces), gain altitude, receive target designation, and reach the target. Apply weapons. And the target has already fired and left.

And it was actually about satellites. The phrase "seen from space" is striking. You can't see anything! How will you see the target in the vast ocean from orbit? The satellite does not survey the entire ocean at once. Open GUGL maps or something. "Stripes of squares" are visible. What is it? This is a sequence of images from space. And these are overview shots. And a lot on one "square can be seen"? And the satellite does not look to the side. Only "for yourself". To, for example, examine a known object on land, you need to "order" a satellite, wait for the flight, take a photo in the required resolution and then decipher it.
All this is complex. And the phrase "sees everything" does not roll. And time needs a wagon. And the combat ekranoplan alone will not go to the AUG. This is a whole operation of heterogeneous forces and means.

Enlighten, who knows how you can shoot down an ekranoplan moving at an altitude of 5-10 meters above the water surface at a speed of 500 km / h?

[Arthur 85]

Several hundred of which marks, I'm embarrassed to ask? Planes go faster, ships go slower. I here proposed a year ago to write off fifth-generation aircraft as unnecessary, and instead equip cheap rags with missiles and AFARs. Here they, maize, will be able to create a cloud of very sharp-toothed targets around the craft. But for this it is necessary to completely change the concept of using the Air Force. What the Soviet Union, of course, did not do, and could not do, in view of the conservatism of thinking.
And so yes, Hawkeye will lead a pair of Hornets on duty to this miracle, and 400 kilometers before the order, he will be shot down by the RVV DB. Or, say, 300 km before the warrant, it will be shot down by cannon fire. But this is not for everybody.

[Podvodnik]

and 400 kilometers before the order, it will be shot down by the RVV BD. Or, say, 300 km before the warrant, it will be shot down by cannon fire.

It will be too late for 400 km from the order. The ekranoplan will be fired for a long time.
Interested in another question: how the Hornets can shoot down an ekranoplan at a height of 5 meters? Will air-to-air missiles work?

Several hundred of which marks, I'm embarrassed to ask?

Target marks. Fishermen, yachts, bulk carriers, tankers, airplanes and all this in large numbers. Or will there be empty space within a radius of 10500 km (as you noted)?

[Arthur 85]

Maybe I, of course, do not know something, but what will prevent the rocket from shooting down such a huge target that leaves a heat tail like an ekranolet? GOS will not "see" it against the background of water? If there is some kind of limiter, say, so that the rockets do not work at low altitudes, well, they will tighten this limiter. Then, the mosquito flies, it seems, 150 km. Well, about the multiple serifs - an ekranollet against the background of yachts and dry cargo ships, a very nimble target. I think Hawkai has enough computing power to select a target.

[AC130 Gunship]

It cannot take off from the middle wave. Those. if you want to send a commercial cargo somewhere, it is obvious that the customer will ask for a delivery date. And you cannot say: as the storm subsides, so will send. Nobody wants to pay

[Podvodnik]

as the storm dies down, so will send

In a storm and an ordinary ship at the wall is problematic to load. A storm is a wind of 20-25 m / s. Under such conditions, no work is carried out in the port. And in a storm, no normal captain will go out to sea.
And ekranoplans do not take off from open water "by default". And they are not loaded "from the water". Both ekranoplanes and ships need a port.
The new always breaks the road hard. Machine guns at the beginning of the journey did not want to put into service: cartridges "will not be enough ...."

[Job74]

Now, if the Americans make their own "Pelican" - ours will be combed. And so this is not the USSR for you to be ahead of the rest of the planet.

[Kozak Za Bugra]

On my own I will add after reading the comments that the ekranoplan concept now lives in small sports boats. And somewhere else I read about a small passenger ekranoplan, sort of like the "Volga" is called, the size is not the same, of course, but the idea is alive.

[Gregory Charnota]

we will not build ekranoplanes because the government lives on a pluck native

[Arthur 85]

And how much Pepsi-Cola could be bought with the money spent on making this ... And give all the Yakovlevs, Novodvorskys, and others to drink. Then wrap them up Levis Straus jeans somewhere, and hand over forty varieties of sausages ... You see, you would still live in the USSR.
No, but joking aside: it took me 10-15 seconds to understand that this project is not a tenant. And entire design bureaus have been developing this for years, and did not understand?

[Alexey RA]

Quote: Arthur 85

No, but joking aside: it took me 10-15 seconds to understand that this project is not a tenant. And entire design bureaus have been developing this for years, and did not understand?

Inertia of thinking. The admirals are accustomed to the fact that nothing is visible beyond the horizon, and aviation never arrives over ships on time (well, except for these "Yak - Shmyak on the deck", but there is no hope for them either). So the low-flying RTO for them seemed truly invisible and invulnerable. And the fact that the Mrapovtsy and other Navy Air Force are talking about the AUG air defense with a depth of many hundred kilometers ... but what to take from these flyers. Moreover, all this does not apply to ekranoplanes, since they are ships.

[Arthur 85]

A little later it occurred to me: okay, they see him, but how will he see AUG himself? Where will he fly, where will he launch the missiles? At most, it will detect passive radiation from the Hokai ... But if I were a pilot of the Hokai, I would have patrolled a little to the side of the aircraft carrier.

[Nick Petrov]

If this country ran out of brains, then there is no need to talk about such machines. Although, with modern technologies that were destroyed in this country, this car was very much needed, especially in the empty Arctic.

[floyd47]

Perhaps all this skepticism in relation to "Lunya" has some basis under it. But, I, more, tend to the idea that we are the bad heirs of Alekseev, unable to understand and appreciate the depth of his plan. modern Egyptians know neither the purpose nor the methods of building the pyramids.
And one more consideration. For centuries we have copied the ideas of the West and, therefore, it is now difficult for us to move along an unknown path, where no one has gone before us. To believe in the advisability of returning the first stages of rockets to Earth and reusing them, it took the obstinacy and riskiness of Elon Musk.
But, Musk does not deal with the problem of large military ekranoplanes, in general, no one except us has dealt with them! Therefore, this concept should be pondered and brought to mind by ourselves. And it may turn out that Lun's funeral comes from the stupidity and indifference of military officials, due to their lack of imagination and the ability to generate new ideas. But, you can bring this project back to life by comprehending its capabilities in a new way.
Who said that the enemy AUG should be attacked by one Lun? Why not a formation of three, six or ten vehicles? And why do all the Lun burials press on the limited capabilities of the Mosquito system? Or is the idea of ​​equipping ekranoplanes with Zircons beyond their thinking abilities?
And if, we take, as a basis, the idea of ​​attacking the AUG of a flock of Lunes, then why should they all be the same type?
Some of them can be shock, armed with Zircons. The other part should perform the functions of air defense - missile defense and be equipped accordingly. Thus, by forming Lune strike groups from vehicles of various purposes, it is possible to increase their resistance to enemy countermeasures ...
It is possible to consider the option when the Luni strike will be piloted by people, and the Luni air defense - missile defense system will be unmanned, and therefore, in the final phase of the attack, they themselves can be used as kamikaze.
It doesn't take much to bury any idea of ​​the mind. And, here, to bring it to embodiment - it is necessary, still try ...