Military Review

Rollin White & Smith & Wesson vs. Three Unusual and Unique Revolvers

125
Rollin White & Smith & Wesson vs. Three Unusual and Unique Revolvers

Normal heroes

Always go around!
(Aibolit-66. Music B. Tchaikovsky, lyrics by V. Korostylev)

Military affairs at the turn of the eras. It often happens that one of the inventors manages to come up with something that gets across the throat of everyone else. But ... they can do nothing and there is only one thing for them to do: try to circumvent his patent, inventing on its basis something quite similar, but not identical. And, perhaps, there is no better example than the struggle of many inventors against Rollin White's patent for his thoroughly drilled revolving drum.


Rollin White's patent for a capsule revolver with a paper cartridge. And who would have thought that all the wealth and power of the Smith & Wesson company would be built on this very “piece of paper” ?!

The law is strong, but it's law!


It all started with the fact that two American engineers Horace Smith and Daniel Wesson in 1856 created a company to develop and produce a revolver designed for a metal cartridge. That is, they showed considerable foresight and foresight, since everyone else, including their main rival Samuel Colt, was content with paper cartridges. They started by looking at existing patents and found that Rollin White had patented a drilled-through revolver barrel for a paper cartridge some time ago. Since the same drum design could be used for metal cartridges, Smith and Wesson agreed with Rollin White to transfer the patent to them. For this they had to pay him a small fee for each revolver sold, provided that he pays any legal costs associated with protecting his patent and its violations.

The success of Smith and Wesson's revolvers chambered for metal cartridges came to them already in 1857 and aroused frank and blackest envy among their fellow gunsmiths. Immediately, analogues appeared, some of which were clear and unconditional violations of White's patents, while there were also specially designed to circumvent the patents of Smith and Wesson. And in no way can one deny the ingenuity of American gunsmiths, who quickly enough created a number of completely unique designs of metal cartridges and drums for revolvers that circumvented the patents of White and Smith and Wesson. In the end, only Rollin White himself was the loser. He was busy filing patent infringement suits, and his wallet was empty. Ultimately, the courts ruled in his favor in 1862, and its full execution did not take effect until 1865. White's patent for his drum should have expired sometime in 1871 or 1872. But he, poor fellow, went bankrupt, paying legal costs until that time.


Three revolvers, the creators of which tried to bypass Rollin White's patent, but in the end they were still defeated in court. From top to bottom: Moore and Williamson's revolver for the "nipple cartridge", the revolver of the Factory Production Company with a release lever (also for the "nipple cartridge") and the Slocum revolver

Three against two ...


The most original designs embodied in metal were three: a pocket revolver of the "Patented Firearms Company weapons Moore ", who developed it for a completely original, so-called" nipple cartridge ", a pocket revolver with" side loading "chambered for" side fire "of the Brooklyn Arms Company and, again, a pocket revolver developed by the Factory Production Company, which was produced by a the company "Mervyn and Bray in New York" - it also used "nipple cartridges, and its drum was also loaded from the side of the barrel and did not have a through hole of the same diameter in it, but it had an original vacuum system.


Moore and Williamson cartridge .32 (7,9 mm). Appearance. By the way, now among collectors one such cartridge costs 65 dollars!


Moore and Williamson's patron cutaway

The Moore and Williamson cartridge, available in .32 and .45 calibers, was used in Moore's own revolvers and National Arms belt-type revolvers, which proved to be very popular with both soldiers and civilians during the American Civil War. National Arms produced about 1864 of these revolvers from 1870 until the 30s, which seems to be a real commercial success!


The same cartridge: neck and primer

What is Moore's cartridge most like?


This cartridge was a copper case with an open neck and a small protrusion on the rounded rear end of the case. The sleeve contained both gunpowder and a bullet, and a primer was in the "nipple". And so she just protruded through a tiny hole in the back of the drum chamber and thus White's patent was not violated in any way! On this primer hit the trigger, as a result of which a shot occurred. The front neck of the cartridge had a slightly widening rim, and the bullet inside it was completely immersed in "cannon fat".


View of the cartridge in the drum of Moore's revolver


Cartridges in the drum of Moore's revolver. Drum front view


Cartridges in the drum of Moore's revolver. Drum back view

Therefore, the breakthrough of the powder gases when fired to the powder charge of the cartridge, as well as its getting wet from water, were completely excluded! There were two types of "nipples": round and flat. The flat is most commonly found among collectors today. The disadvantages of the cartridge include two features of its design. The first is, in fact, the nipple capsule - it was impossible to replace it, which automatically turned all Moore's cartridge cases into disposable. They did not allow re-equipment! The second drawback was that it was necessary to load the revolver drum with these cartridges from the front, and in the chamber they, in fact, were held only due to the friction force. Therefore, from vibration they could loosen in the drum.


Drawing from Daniel Moore's patent for revolver and nipple cartridge (US Patent No. 38321, April 28, 1863)


Drawing from David Williamson's patent for an improved nipple cartridge and revolver under it (US Patent No. 41183 dated January 5, 1864)

The revolver had a six-round drum and a three-inch long barrel-conical barrel. The frame is brass, open, which could have been plated with silver. The barrel and magazine had an original dark blue finish. The bird's paw handle with walnut cheeks. This model has a small hinged bolt on the right side of the barrel in front of the drum, with which the spent cartridges were removed from the drum.


Moore's revolver and cartridges

The barrel is marked “MOORE'S PAT. FIREARMS CO. BROOKLYN, NY ", on drum:" D. WILLIAM'S PATENT JANUARY 5/1864 ".

Unloading Moore's revolver

Not only charge, but also discharge quickly!


The revolver of the Factory Production Company was made in the mid-1860s with a total circulation of about 20 thousand pieces. It had a .30 caliber, a three and a half inch octagonal barrel, a brass frame, and a blued barrel and drum. He also fired “teat cartridges, but had an original high tide vacuum system on the frame on the right side behind the drum, which was a pusher rod with an L-shaped handle with a“ ball ”at the end. Barrel markings - MERWIN & BRAY-FIRE-ARMS CO. NY ”The drum is marked“ PAT. JULY 12, 1859 AND JULY 21, 1863 ".


Revolver "Factory production company"


Drum with revolver cartridges of the "Factory Production Company"

A drum with a door is, of course, something!


Finally, the third revolver, called "Slocum", which was produced in the amount of about 10 copies from 000 to 1863. It was a five-shot .1864 caliber revolver with a unique side loading system. Its essence is that the chambers on it had sliding "covers" that could move along the drum along the inner grooves, thus opening the chambers from the outside. After that, it was possible to put cartridges into them so that their protruding capsules fell into the holes in the rear wall of the drum, and ... slide the covers back, firmly fixing the cartridges in the chambers! Well, to discharge the drum, it was enough just to move these covers and ... shake the revolver. On the trunk there is the BA Co. PATENT APRIL 32, 14 ".


The drum door slides ...


And now she is completely shifted

Thus, all three revolvers represent attempts to circumvent Rollin White's patent. Each was successful for a period of time, until Rollin White won all lawsuits against their developers, although he lost all his fortune in doing so. By the way, after that Moore's company was acquired by the Colt company.

PS Please note that all these revolvers are pocket revolvers! For a long time, Colt practically ignored this niche and as a result got a situation where three small firms actually ousted his company in this segment from the market!
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  1. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 28 November 2020 05: 32
    +2
    Moore and Williamson's patron cutaway

    Well, it’s necessary belay original, I have never heard of such a patron ... forgive my ignorance ... live and learn. what
    Thank you Vyacheslav ... again you sent me to first grade. smile
    1. kalibr
      28 November 2020 06: 52
      +11
      Quote: Lech from Android.
      again you sent me to first grade.

      This is not the first class, "Lech", this is the level of a not weak university. So don't be discouraged. Few of the experts know this!
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 November 2020 07: 01
      +7
      I fully subscribe to Alexei, about the revolvers that I knew and read, but that they are so "out of hand"! I first learned about the cartridge!
      Vyacheslav Olegovich, on the eve we argued about your popularization of weapons and military equipment. Thank you very much for your contribution in this matter!
      O.s. This is my fourth order of unctuous earning !!! laughing
      Oo.s. About the designers, I can only say one thing - the need for invention is cunning!
      1. kalibr
        28 November 2020 08: 14
        +6
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        About the designers, I can only say one thing - the need for invention is cunning!

        Dear Vladislav! Once again, this is an example of the fact that EVERYTHING COMES FROM CHILDHOOD. As a child I read the book ADVENTURES OF INVENTIONS (and magazines from Poland "Horizons of Technology") and there were "Adventures of Thought". I really liked the manner of presentation. Well ... here it is! And the adventures of thought, who thought what, whom and how he wanted to get around ...
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 November 2020 08: 41
          +4
          Greetings Vyacheslav Olegovich, that I like this trigger device in American pocket revolvers. And the grip of the handle. I would like to use a similar toy.
          Thanks again!!!
  2. Hunter 2
    Hunter 2 28 November 2020 06: 44
    +3
    Thank you Vyacheslav Olegovich for the excellent article as always and good in this regard - the beginning of Saturday morning! And again, excellent illustrations, I will reread a little later! hi
    1. kalibr
      28 November 2020 06: 54
      +7
      Quote: Hunter 2
      I'll reread it a bit later!

      And there "further" what materials await you! I contacted an auction house in Paris and if they give a good way to publish their photos, it will be something. Fingers crossed!
      1. Hunter 2
        Hunter 2 28 November 2020 06: 56
        +4
        belay Yeah ... you know how to create intrigue fellow ! We expect ...
        1. kalibr
          28 November 2020 06: 57
          +5
          Quote: Hunter 2
          Do you know how to create intrigue

          Alexei! From 1995 to 2017 PR taught and studied it himself ... in the blood already!
      2. Catfish
        Catfish 28 November 2020 16: 55
        +3
        Vyacheslav, hello and best wishes! hi
        Everything is very interesting and read with pleasure, the guys, of course, did their best to earn a "penny", but nevertheless, these guys, Horatio and Daniel, sat out all and "Smith and Wesson" lives and flourishes, and now it will , probably more abruptly than their eternal rival "Colt".
        At one time, the Czechs released a parody of the westerns "Lemonade Joe" (1964), where the main character reacted to the offer to shut up with the following phrase:
        "If I shut up, my Smith and Wesson will speak!"
    2. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 28 November 2020 07: 27
      +3
      I join. You must, like me, start Saturday with Shpakovsky?)))
      Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 November 2020 08: 44
        +8
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        I join. You must, like me, start Saturday with Shpakovsky?)))
        Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!

        I agree with the guys! In the morning I poked my head on a branch of history - it's empty! Well, at least the moderators did not offend with weapons!
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 28 November 2020 12: 11
          +7
          1. The "history" is not empty. Fedorov's article.
          2. Moderators do not participate in the process of posting materials.
  3. Van 16
    Van 16 28 November 2020 07: 39
    +4
    It is a good tradition and a good omen to start Saturday with an article by Vyacheslav Olegovich. Of course, I am more interested in history, but an educational program on arms will also not hurt.
    1. kalibr
      28 November 2020 07: 55
      +6
      There will be historical materials soon. I am a person of mood. I can't write on one topic for a long time ...
      1. Van 16
        Van 16 28 November 2020 08: 01
        +5
        You are doing everything right. We need different materials and different topics. And reading you is always interesting.
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 November 2020 08: 48
        +6
        There will be historical materials soon. I am a person of mood. I can't write on one topic for a long time ...

        And we don't mind!
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, you are a member of the VO editorial office. If there is an opportunity, can you find out where Eduard Vaschenko got lost?
        Regards, Vlad!
        1. kalibr
          28 November 2020 09: 31
          +6
          Vladislav! I "enter" the material editing department. In all other respects, I am no different from you. You can also ask the administration a question, just like me!
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave 28 November 2020 12: 24
            +7
            Bravo, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
            At the forum, few people understand the mechanism of the online edition.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 28 November 2020 13: 17
              +5
              It is not even the mechanism that is interesting, but the dynamics of the conquest of the information field in comparison with other publications.
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 28 November 2020 13: 23
                +5
                About the dynamics of the conquest of the information field - in the winning materials at the beginning of last year. And then, the resource began to ask for financial support from users.
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 28 November 2020 13: 33
                  +4
                  Maintaining any conquered beachhead takes effort and resources.
                  But Books and articles are gradually losing their influence in this very information field. I wonder what will happen next?
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave 28 November 2020 13: 52
                    +4
                    Further there will be pictograms. Sirech, emoticons.
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 28 November 2020 14: 03
                      +4
                      Probably. While we manage to avoid them. Now I understand why I am doing this.
                      1. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 28 November 2020 14: 10
                        +4
                        Sorry, but you do.
                      2. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 28 November 2020 14: 53
                        +4
                        Please show me where I used the emoticon.
                      3. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 28 November 2020 14: 58
                        +3
                        It's not about the emoticons that I sin with, but about the methods of preparing the presentation of information for the audience. However, this question is not for discussion on the forum.
                      4. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 28 November 2020 15: 10
                        +5
                        Possible.

                        The clarity of the Golden Age cannot be achieved. I don't even try. And the Silver Age has already allowed a lot.
                      5. 3x3zsave
                        3x3zsave 28 November 2020 15: 18
                        +4
                        I answered in a personal, but the question is too complex and multifaceted, not even for comments on the forum, here it will pull a couple of doctoral theses. Type: "Social psycholinguistics in the USSR in the period 1980-90."
                    2. kalibr
                      28 November 2020 15: 22
                      +4
                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      not for discussion on the forum.

                      Ha-ha-ha!
                    3. 3x3zsave
                      3x3zsave 28 November 2020 15: 29
                      +3
                      It's not funny, Vyacheslav Olegovich! Are you ready to write a monograph on changes in the perception of information by humanity in the dynamics of historical processes? I would read it with pleasure!
                    4. kalibr
                      28 November 2020 16: 40
                      +3
                      Quote: 3x3zsave
                      Are you ready to write a monograph on changes in the perception of information by humanity in the dynamics of historical processes?

                      Could. But I won't. Difficult, laborious. And it won't pay off! It is not profitable to write such books now.
                    5. vladcub
                      vladcub 28 November 2020 17: 51
                      +4
                      V.O., you triple hurray that did not succumb to temptation
                    6. kalibr
                      28 November 2020 18: 39
                      +2
                      But, Vladislav, I wrote a novel "The Season of Love", which is sold on the Web better than anyone else, and why ... guess by the name!
                    7. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                      Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 November 2020 19: 51
                      +2
                      If Vya Vyacheslav Olegovich had put the label "18+" in the preface, then sales would have increased even more, if you indicate, women are not recommended !!! laughing could qualify for the Nobel Prize for Literature among Housewives !!! laughing
                      I joke, do not be offended for God's sake! My tail only stands up when I see “V.O. Shpakovsky = Tanks "!!!
                    8. vladcub
                      vladcub 29 November 2020 18: 09
                      +2
                      "Women are not recommended" namesake reminded me: "The Adventures of Tom Soyr" when Haeckel Berefin got in touch with the aphirists. They had something from this series: "women are not recommended"
                    9. kalibr
                      29 November 2020 18: 14
                      +1
                      Vladislav! There is a mark 18+, but what about ... And how can I take offense at you? Don't even think about it! And there probably won't be any more books about tanks ... AST has all plans for publication postponed until the summer (!), And for some the topic for a year!
                  2. vladcub
                    vladcub 29 November 2020 18: 03
                    +2
                    It's so hard to guess.
              2. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave 28 November 2020 18: 01
                +4
                Of course it is sad. Nobody has written anything fundamental on this topic in Russian. Meanwhile, this topic directly intersects with the question of "the cost of a chicken in Paris in 1400"
            2. vladcub
              vladcub 28 November 2020 17: 46
              +4
              Anton, good health. No need V. Oh, to seduce with other topics. It will be a sin in front of the site
            3. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave 28 November 2020 17: 57
              +5
              Vlad! hi
              Choito, all of a sudden?
              Without false modesty, I can say that several times my ideas served as a reason for inspiration for Vyacheslav Olegovich.
            4. kalibr
              28 November 2020 18: 41
              +5
              That is exactly how, Vladislav, and he remembered about chicken in 1400 not by chance.
            5. Kote Pan Kokhanka
              Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 November 2020 19: 53
              +6
              Participation in the forum is one of the components of Vyacheslav Olegovich's success! For what honor and praise you !!!
  • kalibr
    28 November 2020 15: 21
    +4
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    And then, the resource started asking for financial support from users.

    These are two different things Anton. The reason is the decrease in the amount of advertising. No ads - no money!
    1. 3x3zsave
      3x3zsave 28 November 2020 15: 34
      +3
      Vyacheslav Olegovich! Don't you agitate me for Soviet power! I understand the dynamics of processes in this business quite well.
      1. kalibr
        28 November 2020 15: 51
        +3
        Quote: 3x3zsave
        Vyacheslav Olegovich! Don't you agitate me for Soviet power! I understand the dynamics of processes in this business quite well.

        Sorry, Anton. Probably, as they write, I became a little dull after the coronavirus - I stopped thinking elementary things.
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave 28 November 2020 16: 00
          +5
          Stop it! Coronovirus is not meningitis. We survived, and thank God!
        2. Catfish
          Catfish 28 November 2020 17: 21
          +5
          I also think so, the main thing is communication. drinks
  • kalibr
    28 November 2020 15: 20
    +4
    Quote: Korsar4
    It is not even the mechanism that is interesting, but the dynamics of the conquest of the information field in comparison with other publications.

    It is necessary to write a special article about this. Or you can read my textbook "Internet Journalism and Internet Advertising".
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 28 November 2020 15: 54
      +3
      I’m even wondering which textbooks I’d be interested in getting into in the first place? Answer: until December 17 - not at all.
      1. kalibr
        28 November 2020 16: 33
        +4
        Quote: Korsar4
        not for any.

        And right!
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave 28 November 2020 11: 44
    +7
    Where did Eduard Vaschenko get lost?
    Indeed, he disappeared somewhere.
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 28 November 2020 13: 20
    +4
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, I promise, besides your regular admirers, 6 more new readers
    1. kalibr
      28 November 2020 15: 24
      +5
      Quote: Astra wild2
      Vyacheslav Olegovich, I promise, besides your regular admirers, 6 more new readers

      This is inspiring, Astra! In gratitude for this, informing: the moderation is already material for you on the history of clothing. That is, it does not say what is for you. But it is written - for women. And we have a few of them and you are one of them!
      1. Hunter 2
        Hunter 2 28 November 2020 16: 46
        +3
        Quote: kalibr

        This is inspiring, Astra! In gratitude for this, informing: the moderation is already material for you on the history of clothing. That is, it does not say what is for you. But it is written - for women. And we have a few of them and you are one of them!

        Is What - Gender Discrimination? belay Why only for Women? We - Men are also interested in the History of clothing, And Note not only Uniforms and Armor, in fact, like the clothes themselves ... we are not hiding behind fig leaves !!! laughing
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 28 November 2020 19: 57
          +3
          Yes, Alexey agrees to all 100 in the tank with a fig leaf you can't cover your head. The helmet is more comfortable!
          1. Hunter 2
            Hunter 2 28 November 2020 20: 02
            0
            Quote: Kote Pan Kokhanka
            in a tank you can't cover your head with a fig leaf. The helmet is more comfortable!

            And what am I Vladislav ... although here I am thinking, if there are Many - Many Fig Leaves - you can sew a camouflage for me what only a question - for which section of the database? request
      2. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 28 November 2020 21: 09
        +4
        Vyacheslav Olegovich, colleagues, during my "first visit" to the site, I was "omnivorous": I posted comments everywhere, but gradually I was fascinated by your friendly company, where you can relax with your soul and learn a lot of interesting things.
        After reincarnation, I accidentally wandered into the News, asked about something. One virtual "colonel" got nasty at me and demanded a phone. I decided it was new. I told him that they know me well in: "Armament", "History" and ... he no longer needs my phone. I think he appreciated our company correctly
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 28 November 2020 22: 06
          +3
          Recognized as "their own in the area"?
        2. Phil77
          Phil77 29 November 2020 14: 23
          +2
          Quote: Astra wild2
          I told him that they know me well in: "Armament", "History" and ... he no longer needs my phone.

          Vera, you never cease to amaze! Thank you!
          "Who are you in life, Colonel? And there are serious people behind me, not you, a servant, a couple!" laughing laughing laughing
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 29 November 2020 17: 28
            +1
            Association to the picture - "Do not be afraid, I am with you":
            “How he sings! He takes my soul out of me! ”.

            Convincingly so.
            1. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 29 November 2020 20: 20
              +1
              I agree: the film was good. When I watched it for the first time, even as a child, I remember the scene when Lev Durov got to the criminals and did not give a golden tooth
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 29 November 2020 20: 33
                +1
                "He's not yours and not even mine, he's theirs!" (from).
          2. Astra wild2
            Astra wild2 29 November 2020 20: 15
            0
            Probably, and so he understood
            1. Phil77
              Phil77 29 November 2020 20: 45
              0
              Quote: Astra wild2
              Probably, and so he understood

              Yes! Specifically, you ... have decided. laughing

              And that is really offensive.
              * Give me a phone number! *
              Who are you, uncle? And people are behind me! laughing
        3. kalibr
          29 November 2020 18: 16
          +2
          I wrote an article especially for you "Etruscan clothing" from today's 29th on moderation ...
          1. Astra wild2
            Astra wild2 29 November 2020 20: 24
            0
            Vyacheslav Olegovich, you are lovely.
            1. kalibr
              29 November 2020 20: 43
              +1
              Quote: Astra wild2
              Vyacheslav Olegovich, you are lovely.

              Nice to hear. But to be honest, I thought about this material for a long time, climbed a bunch of museums and this will be just the beginning of several articles about the Etruscans and their culture. So I go hand in hand with you.
  • Bormanxnumx
    Bormanxnumx 28 November 2020 09: 40
    +4
    The bird's paw handle with walnut cheeks.

    "Bird's head")
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 28 November 2020 14: 08
      +2
      Right. Bird's head.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 28 November 2020 16: 11
        +4
        Head, it is different. smile
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 28 November 2020 16: 58
          +2
          But if made of walnut - beautiful.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 28 November 2020 17: 16
            +3
            I don’t know what piece of wood it is, but it looks impressive.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 28 November 2020 17: 20
              +2
              The Arkhangelsk "birds of happiness" seem to be nothing special. And sometimes they are good.

              In the North, the tree is known and appreciated. And they know how to handle.
    2. John22
      John22 28 November 2020 20: 57
      +2
      Earlier this handle was called "Parrot's Beak"!
  • Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 28 November 2020 10: 30
    +5
    Dear Vyacheslav! The country should know the "heroes" by name! The revolver of the "Factory Production Company" does not sound! Revolver "Slocum" ... Moore and Williamson - sounds! Anyway ! This is probably my age! recourse As I understand it, in this article you decided to pay some attention to those revolvers, the "authors" of which decided to bypass the patents of the Smith and Wesson company ... But I, somehow, felt sorry for the Pond and Sails-Crispin revolvers that were overlooked by your attention , which belong exactly to this category! hi
    1. kalibr
      28 November 2020 11: 48
      +4
      You can't stuff everything into one material. There is a volume limit. Otherwise it will be stupid and not interesting to read.
  • Undecim
    Undecim 28 November 2020 10: 43
    +6
    Looking at the teat-fire cartridge, which was developed by Daniel Moore and the Williamson revolver, one can see how much the idea of ​​Jacques Pesche, already mentioned here, was that the new is the well forgotten old.

    This is a cartridge for the A.A. 23 mm aviation revolving cannon. Richter P-23.

    And this is it in the context. Virtually no difference with the Moore cartridge, only the electric capsule - EKV-23A.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 28 November 2020 10: 51
      +5

      And this is the P-23 cannon itself, which was put into service in 1964. And the cartridge in the chamber, which is a rotating drum of four chambers, is fed from the front, like a Williamson revolver, that is, the tape is located in front of the drum. Extraction of the liner also takes place forward, and the powder gases are pushed out of the chamber.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 28 November 2020 11: 03
        +8
        Today, such a loading scheme is called forward loading.
      2. Vovanya
        Vovanya 28 November 2020 11: 57
        +5
        "this is the R-23 cannon itself"
        Not confused with the GSh-301 cannon?
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 28 November 2020 13: 01
          +5
          Confused, you are right. I am getting better.
      3. The comment was deleted.
  • Alien From
    Alien From 28 November 2020 11: 38
    +2
    Thank you Vyacheslav! Very informative! Photos are super) hi
  • Operator
    Operator 28 November 2020 11: 55
    -3
    Cartridges for revolvers - the first telescopic, however laughing
    1. Bormanxnumx
      Bormanxnumx 28 November 2020 16: 11
      0

      Quote: Operator
      Cartridges for revolvers - the first telescopic, however laughing

      Why did it happen? Telescopic cartridge means a bullet "recessed" in a powder charge.
      1. Operator
        Operator 28 November 2020 19: 42
        -1
        Not into the charge (the bullets in most non-telescopic cartridges are in one way or another drowned in gunpowder), but into the sleeve - and to the very "crown", however.
        1. Bormanxnumx
          Bormanxnumx 28 November 2020 20: 36
          0
          Quote: Operator
          Not into the charge (the bullets in most non-telescopic cartridges are in one way or another drowned in gunpowder), but into the sleeve - and to the very "crown", however.

          Has the cartridge for a smoothbore hunting rifle also become telescopic? And the boys didn't know)
          The definition of telescopic ammunition sounds like: "Telescopic ammunition is a projectile that is mostly or even completely" recessed "in a powder charge ..."
          Therefore, the cartridges from this article and cartridges for the Nagant are clearly "past the box office" regarding telescopicity.
          1. Operator
            Operator 28 November 2020 22: 00
            -5
            Fully recessed - how's that? laughing
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 28 November 2020 12: 25
    +5
    I wish good health to all colleagues. Health has always been important, and now COVID is 10 times more important. Colleagues who have been ill will confirm.
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, double thanks to you: a) do not forget us, without you and Valery, BORING.
    b) did not forget the promise, to tell about Smith Weson revolvers.
    1. kalibr
      28 November 2020 15: 29
      +4
      Quote: Astra wild2
      did not forget the promise to tell about the Smith Weson revolvers.

      Aster! I never forget about the requests of the beautiful half of humanity. "What a woman wants - God wants it!" But ... I asked the Hermitage for permission to use the photo, and more ... I can't just "scam" from the Internet. Today is Saturday ... The Hermitage will not answer right away, the Yankees will not answer right away ... So if I write about them even today, then there will still be waiting for permission and moderation!
      1. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 28 November 2020 21: 39
        +1
        For which I appreciate you. Women love it when a man responds to our requests.
    2. Phil77
      Phil77 29 November 2020 14: 26
      0
      Quote: Astra wild2
      COVID

      Better about weapons. lol
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 28 November 2020 13: 01
    +3
    Quote: kalibr
    Quote: Hunter 2
    I'll reread it a bit later!

    And there "further" what materials await you! I contacted an auction house in Paris and if they give a good way to publish their photos, it will be something. Fingers crossed!

    I am sure that you will be able to make candy
    1. kalibr
      28 November 2020 15: 30
      +3
      Their manager, judging by the text, is a very nice woman. It remains only to get permission, and there is something to see!
  • Astra wild2
    Astra wild2 28 November 2020 14: 12
    +4
    Vyacheslav Olegovich and dear colleagues: Victor Nikolaevich, Nikolaevich, Mikhail trilobite, everyone in the subject, please tell us: the history of cartridges in metal. When did they appear, what did they look like? In the literature there are: Pote, Boxer? Lefoshe. And what were they? When they appeared.
    1. Undecim
      Undecim 28 November 2020 14: 19
      +5
      You can write a series of articles - the history of a unitary patron. I offer you as a literary debut on the site.
      1. kalibr
        28 November 2020 15: 35
        +3
        Quote: Undecim
        I offer you as a literary debut on the site.

        But Viktor Nikolaevich wrote this well. Imagine: you are interested in this narrow topic !!! Found information! We contacted the owners of the illustrations ... We picked them up. We wrote the text. Checked for identical words in consecutive sentences. And finally, they gave it to VO. After my first article in MK magazine in 1980, I literally ran across the ceiling ... The pleasure that you, Astra, will receive will be greater. I guarantee!
        1. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 28 November 2020 21: 23
          +2
          "literally ran on the ceiling" Vyacheslav Olegovich, presented herself on the ceiling upside down. The skirt will wrap up (the legs are beautiful and therefore I don't wear trousers) and everyone will have fun except me.
          Thank you, I'd rather laugh myself, which I did.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 28 November 2020 22: 09
            +3
            From some children's literature: the heroine, when she did somersaults, pinned her skirt.
            1. Astra wild2
              Astra wild2 29 November 2020 14: 40
              +2
              I lost my pin
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 29 November 2020 16: 19
                +1
                Household without a pin is nonsense. But how to scare away evil spirits?
                1. Phil77
                  Phil77 29 November 2020 17: 30
                  +1
                  Quote: Korsar4
                  without a pin is nonsense.

                  Yes, fix the same skirt ?! To avoid, so to speak. laughing laughing laughing
                  1. Korsar4
                    Korsar4 29 November 2020 17: 48
                    +1
                    An irreplaceable thing on the road.
      2. Astra wild2
        Astra wild2 28 November 2020 21: 36
        +1
        Victor Nikolaevich, well they deprived me so that I would not be imposed
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 28 November 2020 21: 56
          +4
          And in my thoughts there was nothing to "deprive" you. Simply, if you are interested in a topic, then finding information on such a topic is a very exciting experience. And if in the process of searching you have a desire to expound the accumulated knowledge, then this is also interesting, Vyacheslav Olegovich is right.
      3. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 29 November 2020 11: 57
        0
        Quote: Undecim
        You can write a series of articles - the history of the unitary patron

        Why write? When can I read! Moreover, when there is already a "series of articles" about the "history of the unitary patron"!
        1. Undecim
          Undecim 29 November 2020 12: 27
          0
          Does the site have a systematic presentation of the patron's history? I remember scattered articles, but no cycle.
          1. Nikolaevich I
            Nikolaevich I 29 November 2020 12: 53
            0
            Quote: Undecim
            I remember scattered articles, but no cycle.

            Well, I came across one magazine where during the three issues, in my opinion, it was stated "about cartridges" ... In any case, there were answers to questions about cartridges Pot, Lefoshe, Boxer ...
            1. Undecim
              Undecim 29 November 2020 13: 36
              +1
              So share the information.
              1. Nikolaevich I
                Nikolaevich I 30 November 2020 12: 16
                +1
                Alas ... there are problems! Some time has passed and I no longer remember exactly what name the articles were placed in the archive by. In addition, I am currently in the same city; and the computer with the archive is in another city! I took with me an old "backup" disk, but it hasn't been replenished for a long time ... ie. there is not the whole archive! I will try to review it as soon as possible, but at the moment I am busy with other things ...
    2. kalibr
      28 November 2020 15: 31
      +3
      Quote: Astra wild2
      Boxer?

      I had an article about Boxer's patron here. There are special "patron" sites in the USA. But ... we must again contact them and ask for permission. It's troublesome and time consuming! But why not, after all.
    3. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 29 November 2020 12: 03
      0
      Quote: Astra wild2
      please tell us: the history of cartridges in metal. When did they appear, what did they look like? In the literature there are: Pote, Boxer? Lefoshe. And what were they? When they appeared.

      Why bother someone? Moreover, all this is already on the Internet ... and even in one article! Seek and you will find!
  • vladcub
    vladcub 28 November 2020 16: 48
    +3
    Q. Oh, thanks for the story. Like comrade Lyokha, I had no idea about such cartridges.
  • vladcub
    vladcub 28 November 2020 17: 26
    +1
    Interesting revolvers. Each of them has its own flavor. But I especially liked the Slocum door in the drum - not that. This door makes me associate with the Abadi door at Nagan
    1. kalibr
      28 November 2020 19: 22
      +1
      Quote: vladcub
      This door makes me associate with the Abadi door at Nagan

      It turned out that this is not a door, but a cylinder-liner, the outer side of which is very similar to a door. The program "Forgotten weapons" is shown below - it is clearly visible there!
  • Nikolaevich I
    Nikolaevich I 28 November 2020 17: 49
    +1
    Since the Slocum revolver is mentioned here, I'll try to show a video about it ....
    1. kalibr
      28 November 2020 18: 50
      +2
      Well, you see how good it is that you posted this video. I did not look at it and, according to the description, considered that the chamber is closed with a sliding lid, and this is wrong. A cylinder with a reflex on the outer surface is inserted into the chambers, and the cartridge is already inserted into this cylinder! So thank you, Vladimir, for correcting the inaccuracy in the article.
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 28 November 2020 19: 36
        +3
        Yes, I am always glad to share info with you! yes Here we get such a "calico" .... well, let's start with this: 1. a capsule (cartridge) with a spent cartridge case is pushed onto the "ejector pin" ... the cartridge case remains in the drum and is shaken off ... 2. the cartridge fits into the groove drum ... the capsule moves in the opposite direction onto the cartridge and becomes the chamber of the drum ... everything "ingenious" is simple! wink
        1. kalibr
          28 November 2020 19: 48
          +1
          Yes, exactly so, but when I read the English text I did not understand it, it seemed like a "door".
        2. Astra wild2
          Astra wild2 28 November 2020 21: 34
          +3
          Taak, we have "gunsmiths": you, Vyacheslav Olegovich, Sea cat, Mikhail "trilobite", Victor Nikolaevich and .. that's it. I beg your pardon, Mikhail has no time to deal with weapons, he is the "chief inquisitor" in the fight against the heresy of "Fomenkovism"
    2. Astra wild2
      Astra wild2 28 November 2020 21: 25
      +1
      I can't see the video
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 28 November 2020 21: 59
        +1
        Follow the link https://youtu.be/qVWyc64j3j8 and look at your health.
    3. vladcub
      vladcub 28 November 2020 21: 46
      +1
      It's a pity that in English I'm oak oak
      1. Undecim
        Undecim 28 November 2020 21: 58
        +2
        And to master - in any way?
  • Bonk838
    Bonk838 7 February 2021 12: 03
    0
    "" "" "" when Gekel Berefin "" "" "" "since the comment under the article about revolvers I will try to match ::: Mark Twain turns over in his coffin, like a drum in Moore's revolver)))))))