Military Review

They are trying to make allies of the USSR the main winners in World War II

129
They are trying to make allies of the USSR the main winners in World War II

The more time passes since the end of the Second World War, the more zealous certain circles are trying to belittle the role of the Red Army in the defeat of Hitler's Germany and militaristic Japan. More and more often, such "arguments" as "the Soviet Union would not have won any victory if not for the help of the allies" began to be encountered.


The fact is that neither the Soviet Union before, nor Russia today denied and does not deny the importance of assistance from the allies in the anti-Hitler coalition. Never in our country at the highest level there have been statements from the series "We did not need any lend-lease." Everyone perfectly understood and understands that the help was important and it played a significant role.

But when, against such a background, they begin to declare that it is the allies (the United States and Britain) that are supposedly the main winners, then this causes not even bewilderment, but the question: who benefits from belittling the role of the Soviet soldier, the Soviet people in achieving Victory? And there are enough of them today. Their main task is to do everything in order to distort history, to make the Soviet soldier not a winner, but a "barbarian", to equate the USSR with Hitler's Germany, Stalin with Hitler, and everything like that.

About how the allies fought, when they entered the war, how it influenced or did not affect the course of events, Oleg Matveychev tells on his channel:

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  1. Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 20 November 2020 11: 29
    +6
    As an influence, from the Western Front, from its different directions, the Germans transferred divisions to the Eastern Front.
    1. Avior
      Avior 20 November 2020 11: 35
      -6
      And it happened and vice versa ...
      1. Nasrat
        Nasrat 20 November 2020 11: 38
        +3
        .... events, says Oleg Matveychev on his channel:

        What is the fashion for VO - to show other people's channels ???
        1. Ross xnumx
          Ross xnumx 20 November 2020 13: 21
          0
          Quote: Nasr
          What is the fashion for VO - to show other people's channels ???

          good
          Let me, I think, bring my spoon ... But, having run through the posts, I realized - I'm not the only one so illiterate, not mastering the spoken English ...
          They are trying to make allies of the USSR the main winners in World War II

          Yes, we heard this song. Here the question is: "Who is trying?" - not relevant. Why did they start preferring English to the Russian language on the VO website in the Russian Federation?
          There are rules:
          f) With all due respect to other languages, the language of communication in comments to published articles is Russian. Unfortunately, speakers of other languages ​​often use them to sort things out with each other, while using obscene language;
          g) It is forbidden to add articles from third-party sites to comments, as this contradicts the purpose of the commenting function: comments on the site are intended solely for readers to express their own opinions regarding published articles.

          In addition, there is a "spoiler" that allows you to hide a "copy-paste" or link to a video from YuoTube ...
          hi
      2. Daniil Konovalenko
        Daniil Konovalenko 20 November 2020 11: 53
        +3
        And how often did this happen?
        1. Avior
          Avior 20 November 2020 12: 08
          -2
          Not isolated.
          As is your statement.
          1. Daniil Konovalenko
            Daniil Konovalenko 20 November 2020 12: 13
            +5
            Well, yes, the Wehrmacht's backbone was broken on the Western Front. And they began to break it on the African front, then in Sicily, in Italy, and the final turning point occurred after D-Day ... in Normandy. wink
            1. Machito
              Machito 20 November 2020 12: 40
              +2
              Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
              Well, yes, the Wehrmacht's backbone was broken on the Western Front. And they began to break it on the African front, then in Sicily, in Italy, and the final turning point occurred after D-Day ... in Normandy. wink

              It's irony?
              The USSR grinded the main forces of the Hitlerite coalition, contracted Hitler's European Union and the Japanese ground forces.
              And the United States won the war, because it turned out to be the main beneficiaries as a result of the Breton Woods agreement. For the "victory" of the dollar in WWII, the United States actively unleashed it, financing and pushing opponents in Europe and Asia to war. The USA is the main culprit in the beginning of WWII.
            2. Avior
              Avior 20 November 2020 16: 36
              -4
              Eck you started to wag. Don't you remember what it was about?: ((
              Can you name the irrecoverable losses of the Wehrmacht in the East and in the West?
      3. nnm
        nnm 20 November 2020 12: 13
        +6
        To be honest, I don’t remember that. At least on a significant scale. In the order of rotation, the battered units, but the Germans in the order of rotation were taken to the West. But it is precisely that this would significantly reduce the total number of forces and means - I could not remember this.
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 20 November 2020 12: 21
          0
          I completely agree with you
        2. Avior
          Avior 20 November 2020 12: 50
          0
          ... The July 13 meeting began with Hitler's announcement that the situation in Sicily, where the Western powers landed on July 10, had become serious. The Italians did not fight at all. We will probably lose the island. The next step of the enemy [513] could be a landing in the Balkans or in southern Italy. New armies need to be formed in Italy and the western Balkans. The Eastern Front must give up part of the forces, and therefore the operation "Citadel" cannot continue any longer ....... On July 17, OKH ordered to immediately remove the entire 2 SS tank destroyers and send it at its disposal, and on July 18 it demanded to transfer 2 other tank divisions at the disposal of the "Center" group.

          In connection with such a decrease in forces, the command of the group was forced to abandon the planned strikes, stop operations and return the armies to their original positions.

          From the memoirs of a famous veteran
          1. nnm
            nnm 20 November 2020 13: 09
            +3
            Dear colleagues (just below the second similar example), don't you think that giving an example in the volume of 1 TC is not serious? Interestingly, the Vistula-Odeo operation (emnip) how many forces did it hold down and did not allow them to be transferred to Arden?
            1. Avior
              Avior 20 November 2020 16: 39
              -2
              And what is not serious?
              Quite seriously, and with serious consequences.
              1. nnm
                nnm 20 November 2020 16: 41
                +3
                Colleague, 1 motorized division from the corps, which then rushed from west to east and back 7 times - serious consequences on the scale of the Kursk Bulge, seriously ????
                1. Avior
                  Avior 20 November 2020 19: 10
                  -4
                  You have read the opinion of a participant in the events
                  1. nnm
                    nnm 20 November 2020 23: 14
                    +2
                    I understand, Friday ... but do you really want to say that 2,3 divisions were withdrawn from the front?)
          2. awdrgy
            awdrgy 22 November 2020 23: 52
            0
            Memoirs ...- "By the end of July 12, the battle was over. The main goal of the counter-attack of the Voronezh Front by the forces of the 5th Guards TA and 5th Guards Ar. Did not reach. The enemy was not defeated, but the further advance of the 2nd tank formations The SS corps near Prokhorovka was halted, advancing 5 kilometers from July 12-35, Manstein's troops were forced to trample on the lines they had reached for three days in vain attempts to break into the Soviet defenses and begin to withdraw troops from the captured “bridgehead.” During the battle, a turning point came. The Soviet troops, which went on the offensive on July 17, threw back the German armies in the south of the Kursk Bulge by July 23 to their original positions. " Something in terms of timing does not converge, although close of course (but if I try to put a bumper 1 mm different from the necessary, then only with the help of a file) - "On July 15, the enemy exhausted his offensive capabilities, bled out as a result of stubborn resistance of the VF troops, he was forced to stop active action and go on the defensive "What are the planned strikes? Than? By whom? In the 2nd SS, by the 13th, there were barely 55% of combat-ready tanks, and setting on the move by the 17th, about 50 more did not play a role because they were needed on the 15th (and by the 15th they had restored less than 10 -ka tanks) In other shopping malls, the situation was even worse, Therefore, they were thrown to the West because the offensive in the East was blown away- troops to Italy to strengthen this strategic direction "Well, if the Germans arranged an endkampf, then maybe (maybe) they would have achieved (would) tactical success by putting 5-1943 percent of their troops, but I think they perfectly understood that in this case the war would be lost back in the fall of the 90rd In any case, they were not fools in the Wehrmacht General Staff
            1. awdrgy
              awdrgy 23 November 2020 00: 05
              0
              Although there was no cancellation of the July 5 offensive, let's say (let's say) "experts" got it wrong with the dates
            2. Avior
              Avior 23 November 2020 00: 05
              0
              have you read how they saw the situation? above I gave their vision of that situation.
              1. awdrgy
                awdrgy 23 November 2020 00: 07
                0
                The enemy always has his own truth otherwise he will not fight All I sleep
                1. Avior
                  Avior 23 November 2020 00: 16
                  0
                  in this case, it is important that they, considering this, were still ready to withdraw troops from the Eastern Front. As far as I know, Orney should have received the top-up on arrival, so the top-up was redirected.
                  If you look at the beginning of the discussion, then the speech is generally only about whether there were such facts or not.
                  But the vis-a-vis decided to change the topic from a fact in general to its significance.
                  Good night. hi
        3. Constanty
          Constanty 20 November 2020 13: 02
          -2
          One example is the Battle of the Kursk Bulge. After the Allied invasion of Sicily, which began on 10 July. The Italian army was unable to stop the allied forces. For this reason, the Germans had to transfer their own troops to the area. Hitler also feared an invasion of the Balkans and wanted to transfer troops there. The only available troops were the troops fighting at Kursk.

          On July 17, an order was given to withdraw the 2nd SS Panzer Corps from the front to the area west of Belgorod and further to Italy ...
          1. nnm
            nnm 20 November 2020 13: 10
            +2
            Dear colleagues (just below the second similar example), don't you think that giving an example in the volume of 1 TC is not serious? Interestingly, the Vistula-Odeo operation (emnip) how many forces did it hold down and did not allow them to be transferred to Arden?
            1. Constanty
              Constanty 20 November 2020 13: 21
              0
              However, this example shows that such situations took place - contrary to what you wrote earlier, and moreover, they influenced one of the most important operations on the Eastern Front.
              1. nnm
                nnm 20 November 2020 13: 46
                +2
                However, this only shows one thing - your lies. And nothing else.
                1. One single example does not mean absolutely NOTHING.
                2. Why lie about the transfer of the entire corps to Italy, if only 1 motorized division of Leibstandarte AG was transferred from its composition. Or Das Reich and Death's Head did not take part in the Battle of Kursk?
                3. Why write about the "influence" of the transfer of 1 division on a strategic battle?
                4. Why keep quiet about the fact that the division was not removed forever from the eastern front, and since 43 it was thrown back and forth 7 times.
                1. Constanty
                  Constanty 20 November 2020 14: 38
                  -3
                  If later the LSSAH division was deployed 7 times to the Eastern Front, this also means that it moved west several times - for example, to Belgium or Normandy.
                  The rest of the 2nd SS Panzer Corps, the rest were transferred to the Western Front at the turn of November and December 1943. In April 1944, he fought again on the Eastern Front.
                  After the Allied landings in Normandy, the 2nd SS Panzer Corps was again withdrawn to the Western Front, joining Army Group B.

                  The transfer of German units from the fronts in response to various threats was normal practice - both from the Western Front to the East, and vice versa.
                  Yes, many units fought from start to finish on the Eastern Front, such as the 5th SS Panzer Division Viking.
                  1. nnm
                    nnm 20 November 2020 15: 53
                    +3
                    Excuse me, colleague, but I don't see any point in discussing this topic with someone who actually writes that the allies by distracting 1 SS motorized division almost saved us in the Battle of Kursk.
                    Yours! hi
                    1. Constanty
                      Constanty 20 November 2020 15: 57
                      -2
                      It really doesn't make sense to talk to someone who ignores the facts.
                      Yours!
            2. Avior
              Avior 20 November 2020 16: 45
              -1
              And how many troops from the Ardennes were transferred to the Vistula Oder operation?
              The conversation is about this.
              I am not aware of this.
              And you?
              1. nnm
                nnm 20 November 2020 16: 48
                +1
                I don’t know such details on the fly. We need to look at the documents. But the fact that they could not withdraw the troops and knock out the allies is a fact. Or do you think Churchill just asked Stalin to launch the Soviet offensive earlier?
                1. Avior
                  Avior 20 November 2020 18: 27
                  -2
                  Sorry, Churchill didn't ask for this, it's just a common myth.
                  Churchill simply asked when the offensive was planned, for information and coordination with Eisenhower.
                  ... It is very desirable and necessary for General Eisenhower to know in general terms what you intend to do, since this, of course, will affect all his and our most important decisions.

                  .
                  In the Ardennes, two German tank armies, 5 and 6, equipped with the newest Tigers 2, got stuck, and as a result were unable to take part in battles against Soviet troops.
                  As far as I know, nothing was transferred from the Ardennes in any noticeable volume.
                  1. nnm
                    nnm 20 November 2020 23: 09
                    +2
                    Sorry, but you are talking nonsense))) the text of Churchill's letter is disassembled almost by letter
                    1. Avior
                      Avior 20 November 2020 23: 24
                      +1
                      Disassembled. Churchill did not ask for this.
                      However, if you quote a quote where he writes that he asks, and even earlier, I am ready to change my mind.
                      1. nnm
                        nnm 21 November 2020 09: 16
                        +2
                        I understand that in fact, you will not change your opinion, dear colleague, but nevertheless:
                        https://tass.ru/obschestvo/1681659
                      2. Avior
                        Avior 21 November 2020 09: 45
                        0
                        You give a specific quote, where Churchill asks about this in a letter, I seem to have written about this.
                        And separately the place where Churchill in his letter allegedly asks to accelerate the offensive.
                        And when you give specific quotes about this, then we will discuss your link to this TASS hack.
                        I'll even help you. Here is the text of this letter. You just have to find a place where Churchill asks to start an offensive, and even asks to speed up.
                        You need document 383.
                        https://librebook.me/perepiska_i__stalina_s_u__cherchillem_i_k__ettli__iiul_1941_g____noiabr_1945_g
                      3. nnm
                        nnm 21 November 2020 09: 52
                        0
                        I knew your answer in advance, almost literally. But it only makes sense outside the context of historicity. But if you know that before this letter, the Allies, coordinating their plans, agreed on the timeframes for actions in which the Soviet side was supposed to launch an offensive 2 months later, then the situation looks completely different. But, you are not interested, are you? You'd better lie about the fact that the entire 2 TC was removed, you'd better lie about the fact that 1 motorized division almost changed the course of the Citadel, you don't want to know the historical context of Churchill's letter, etc. Why, if you can just throw "processed" arguments at the fan in the hope that the interlocutor will hang his ears and say - wow !!! Here we are bast shoes!
                      4. Avior
                        Avior 21 November 2020 10: 23
                        0
                        I am curious.
                        But I don't see documents and facts from you.
                        Your reference to TASS refers precisely to this letter as proof, obviously knowing that this is a myth, as I gently wrote at the very beginning, that there is no such request in this letter, and hiding it behind empty verbosity.
                        Now you also know that this is not in the letter, despite the massively replicated false statements that this is so.
                        And how you are the manager of this knowledge for yourself is your business.
                        hi
                        PS Yes, and by the way, about accelerating the offensive, this idea was expressed not by Churchill, but by Stalin in his reply letter. It is nearby in the collection.
                        Historians, not mythmakers, considering the context, as you wrote, believe that Stalin's idea was very sound and correct - the Germans at that time were limited in reserves, especially in tank ones, since two armies with the latest tanks remained in the Ardennes, and the reserve it was necessary first to replenish, and this takes time, which Stalin did not give the enemy his decision to accelerate the offensive, which contributed to the success of the Soviet troops in the Vistula - Oder operation.
  • Blackmokona
    Blackmokona 20 November 2020 11: 32
    -2
    The fact is that neither the Soviet Union before, nor Russia today denied and does not deny the importance of assistance from the allies in the anti-Hitler coalition. Never in our country at the highest level there have been statements from the series "We did not need any lend-lease." Everyone perfectly understood and understandthat help was important and it played a significant role.

    Everyone understands and understood perfectly well.
    A terrible srach for 500+ comments on LendLiz in each article it perfectly demonstrates wassat
    Well, let's listen to the war hero Marshal Zhukov.
    «Now they say that the allies never helped us, but it cannot be denied that the Americans drove us so many materials without which we could not form our reserves and could not continue the war - these words of the marshal were recorded by the KGB wiretapping in 1963. - We didn't have explosives, gunpowder. There was nothing to equip rifle cartridges. The Americans really helped us out with gunpowder and explosives. And how much steel sheet they drove to us! Could we have quickly set up production of tanks, if not for American help with steel? We received 350 thousand cars, but what cars! Without them, we would have nothing to carry our artillery on. They generally provided our front-line transport. And high-octane gasoline for MiGs. Now they present things in such a way that we had all of this in abundance. "
    1. Uncle lee
      Uncle lee 20 November 2020 11: 55
      +5
      (US and UK) are the top winners
      And also France (Keitel)! Evil is not enough already! Our Soldier, a lapotnik, drove poor Adik in Berlin to suicide ...
      There is a specific history correspondence!
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 20 November 2020 12: 05
        +2
        And this is a truncated quote from the wiki. Without the truncation, there is a slightly different meaning.
        "The aid widely advertised by the allies came to us under Lend-Lease in amounts far from what was promised. But its share was insignificant if we talk about the overall need of our country in the agreed volumes of supplies. As for the tanks and aircraft that the British and American governments supplied, let's face it, they were not popular with our tankers and pilots "
        This is what is cut, sorry, edited in the wiki.
        1. Uncle lee
          Uncle lee 20 November 2020 12: 11
          +2
          Quote: mat-vey
          they were not popular

          My dad spent the whole war on "Zakhara" and on a lorry and a half turned the wheel ... I myself saw the Studders in HF 11011, driving school. They were returned to the states and Dad swore that it was necessary to complete with spare parts, up to a canvas bucket. Year of commercials 53-55 ...
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 20 November 2020 12: 17
            +5
            Not my grandfather, as the artillery was written off from the tankers on everything taxied. The stander spoke more powerful, faster and more comfortable or something, and the lorry is simpler and more reliable and not whimsical in maintenance and repair.
            1. Uncle lee
              Uncle lee 20 November 2020 12: 24
              +1
              Zil-151 was "copied" from Studder .... And the Gaz-63 has an alligator-type hood, like Studder, the wings were also angular, then they were made rounded.
          2. Avior
            Avior 20 November 2020 12: 29
            -2
            There is not a word anywhere that the Americans demanded this. If there was such a thing somewhere, it is clearly the stupidity of one of ours.
            1. Uncle lee
              Uncle lee 20 November 2020 12: 34
              +4
              Quote: Avior
              this is clearly the stupidity of one of ours.

              VCh 11011 - driving school and Studders are the only cars for training cadets and who would give them on their own? After them GAZ-51 and ZILs and URALAZs appeared.
              And the Studders were returned in full and left immediately under the press.
              1. Avior
                Avior 20 November 2020 16: 48
                -5
                I mean, they repaired, painted, provided zips and other things. The Americans did not demand this, no one was going to carry the vehicles worn out by the war across three seas.
                Yes, and we did not need them in such a state, since they were returned.
                What was in good condition, they kept for themselves.
            2. Uncle lee
              Uncle lee 20 November 2020 12: 37
              +5
              After the war, the situation escalated. The Lend-Lease Law provided for three conditions in relation to the delivered goods: the supplied materials (cars, various military equipment, weapons, raw materials, other items), destroyed, lost and used during the war, are not subject to payment, property left after the end of the war and suitable for civilian purposes, must be paid in whole or in part on the basis of long-term loans provided by the United States (mostly interest-free loans), if the American side is interested, the intact and unused equipment and equipment must be returned after the war in the United States.
              1. Uncle lee
                Uncle lee 20 November 2020 12: 39
                +3
                https://www.vpk-news.ru/articles/56071
                Here is a link to the article
              2. Avior
                Avior 20 November 2020 16: 54
                -4
                ... property left over after the end of the war and suitable for civilian purposes must be paid in full or in part

                Your quote is distorted.
                They also left military equipment, for example, the Shermans, which were used for training because of the large resource.
                The USSR left what it wanted, except that the Americans demanded to return.
                But, to be honest, I don’t know that they would demand something.
                What we didn't need was returned.
        2. Blackmokona
          Blackmokona 20 November 2020 12: 57
          -2
          The funny thing is, if you replace my quote with yours, then the meaning of my post will not change at all laughing
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 20 November 2020 13: 01
            +2
            Coca you have flexible ... meaning.
            1. Blackmokona
              Blackmokona 20 November 2020 13: 05
              -3
              My point is that the author is lying when he says that in Russia and the USSR there has always been a single position on Lend-Lease and we have always recognized his contribution. And Zhukov says that others underestimate, or he himself says that there was no one to contribute. Both positions play into my hand.
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 20 November 2020 13: 09
                +2
                Quote: BlackMokona
                when he says that in Russia and the USSR there has always been a single position on Lend-Lease and we have always recognized his contribution.

                and in the west, the assessment varies depending on the circumstances. That war was won by the Russian guys, it is all because of our supplies and only because of them.
                1. Blackmokona
                  Blackmokona 20 November 2020 13: 10
                  -5
                  So you can find out when and who spoke the second position in the United States?
                  I have never seen it. Once they threw a vidos to me, look in the museum of the Second World War in the USA, there is almost nothing about the USSR.
                  Only Google showed that this museum is entirely dedicated to the American contribution to World War II.It's like coming to the Stalingrad museum and start resenting the lack of stands dedicated to the Normandy landing there.
                  1. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 20 November 2020 13: 16
                    +1
                    Quote: BlackMokona
                    So you can find out when and who spoke the second position in the United States?

                    William Standley, for example, back in 1943 when there was still no victory.
                    1. Blackmokona
                      Blackmokona 20 November 2020 14: 31
                      -3
                      Googled. He complained that Lend-Lease was hiding for which he was immediately thrown out of the post of ambassador.
                      Under Standley, large volumes of American military aid began to arrive in the USSR. An incident in Soviet-American relations is associated with the name of Standley, when he harshly condemned high-ranking Soviet officials who did not express gratitude to the United States for helping under Lend-Lease. In March 1943, Standley told reporters at a press conference in Moscow:
                      The Russian authorities seem to want to hide the fact that they are receiving outside help. Obviously, they want to assure their people that the Red Army is fighting this war alone.
                      - [3]
                      The ambassador eventually resigned, which was accepted by President Roosevelt on September 19, 1943.
                      1. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 20 November 2020 14: 36
                        +3
                        Quote: BlackMokona
                        Complained that Lend-Lease was hiding

                        I wonder how it could have been hidden then?
                      2. Blackmokona
                        Blackmokona 20 November 2020 14: 44
                        -2
                        As easily as the DPRK hides that its people are eating free rice of damned enemies and Imperialists
                      3. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 20 November 2020 14: 50
                        +3
                        Yeah, and the tanks were made in the Urals, and the packaging and boxes were made in the Mosfilm workshops. Even the children knew the Second Front.
                      4. Blackmokona
                        Blackmokona 20 November 2020 14: 53
                        -4
                        And this does not affect in any way, as now the overwhelming majority are sure that the entire Lend-Lease is the sale of a complete military UG at three dear for gold, so it could have been twisted then. And all there is no help, there is only evil greedy extortion. Cruel and merciless capitalist predators, taking advantage of the extreme need of the Soviet people, rob it.
                        And that's all. winked
                      5. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 20 November 2020 14: 55
                        +2
                        Quote: BlackMokona
                        And this does not affect in any way

                        Well, now maybe ... All my relatives who have gone through the war were in the know.
                      6. Blackmokona
                        Blackmokona 20 November 2020 14: 56
                        -4
                        And then why was it impossible? All state media, for non-state statements in the GULAG, the state said its version and that's it. Contradict her assistance to the enemy and to Siberia.
                        All specialists, equipment and resources do not contradict this version in any way. You have no proof to the contrary.
                      7. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 20 November 2020 14: 57
                        +1
                        Quote: BlackMokona
                        And then why was it impossible? All state media, for non-state statements in the GULAG, the state said its version and that's it. Contradict her assistance to the enemy in Siberia.

                        Are you serious?
  • tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
    tovarich-andrey.62goncharov 20 November 2020 11: 55
    0
    Where is it printed - give a link please. I haven't read that.
    1. Blackmokona
      Blackmokona 20 November 2020 14: 59
      -5
      Nowhere, I was asked how it was possible to hide the help I wrote. How to do it is incredibly easy and simple.
      And the ambassador was thrown out of his post, so what the US government thought about his version is clear. After all, Stalin was not an idiot, and he would not bite the hand of the one giving free equipment.
  • deniso
    deniso 20 November 2020 11: 57
    +4
    Quote: BlackMokona
    The fact is that neither the Soviet Union before, nor Russia today denied and does not deny the importance of assistance from the allies in the anti-Hitler coalition. Never in our country at the highest level there have been statements from the series "We did not need any lend-lease." Everyone perfectly understood and understandthat help was important and it played a significant role.

    Everyone understands and understood perfectly well.
    A terrible srach for 500+ comments on LendLiz in each article it perfectly demonstrates wassat
    Well, let's listen to the war hero Marshal Zhukov.
    «Now they say that the allies never helped us, but it cannot be denied that the Americans drove us so many materials without which we could not form our reserves and could not continue the war - these words of the marshal were recorded by the KGB wiretapping in 1963. - We didn't have explosives, gunpowder. There was nothing to equip rifle cartridges. The Americans really helped us out with gunpowder and explosives. And how much steel sheet they drove to us! Could we have quickly set up production of tanks, if not for American help with steel? We received 350 thousand cars, but what cars! Without them, we would have nothing to carry our artillery on. They generally provided our front-line transport. And high-octane gasoline for MiGs. Now they present things in such a way that we had all of this in abundance. "



    Let us recall 1942 in the midst of the Battle of Stalingrad and now the Northern Route is a sea convoy with the help of the Lend Lease from the USA, and the UK PQ 17 is guarded and escorted by the British Navy to Murmansk, and in the Norwegian Fjords area only because of the assumption that the convoy was intercepted at sea the German battleship Tirpitz may come out, the British military squadron turns around and simply abandons a caravan of merchant cargo ships and leaves for British ports, as a result of Tirpitz, the convoy never went to sea to intercept the convoy, but German wolf packs of submarines began to torpedo with impunity As a result, almost 90% of the merchant ships that were carrying so much needed aid to the USSR during the Battle of Stalingrad ended up at the bottom of the Norwegian Sea, only a few ships managed to break through to Murmansk, and they had significant damage. so the allies helped in 1942 about the same barkers can read in the novel by Valentin Pikul "Requiem for the PQ 17 caravan." And the main help began to come through the Lend Lease in the USSR, not in 1942 or even in 1943, but only in 1944, and then the USSR paid for this help with pure gold, was able to pay immediately and formalized in the form of a long-term loan, and this assistance did not have a significant impact on the course of the war.
    1. Blackmokona
      Blackmokona 20 November 2020 12: 01
      -12 qualifying.
      Nothing was paid for the Lend-Lease during the war.
      Only what was not spent was subject to payment, and at the same time what the USSR did not want to return.
      All this was formalized with an interest-free loan at the end of the war.
      The USSR immediately demanded that this payment be cut at times, and nothing was paid until the collapse of the USSR.
      Well, the help was not all in one convoy. And failed operations and we were full of
    2. Avior
      Avior 20 November 2020 12: 20
      -2
      It has already become like a record.
      Dear, nothing was paid for Lend Lease, neither in gold, nor candy wrappers. The entire Lend Lease during the war of the USSR was worth nothing.
      All $ 11 billion is the value of about half of the world's gold reserves at that time.
      Read better about the convoy
      Jack Broome "Disperse Convoy" or Maclean's Polar Convoy will be more useful.
      These people at least participated in what they wrote about.
      Pikul's book was based on Irving's materials, and their falsity was proven in court and he paid compensation for libel.
    3. Constanty
      Constanty 20 November 2020 13: 16
      0
      On the Lend-Lease, nothing was paid in pure gold during the war. The British were paid in pure gold for deliveries that did not fall under the Leand-Lease, and before it was signed.

      I agree with the thesis that Germany was defeated mainly by the USSR, but without the help of its allies this would have been impossible. The scale of supplies was not at all small, materials for cars, locomotives, trucks, the famous "stew", egg powder ...
      All this allowed the USSR to concentrate mainly on the production of weapons - tanks and aircraft, and the latter, moreover, would have been impossible to produce in such quantities without American aluminum.
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 20 November 2020 14: 03
        0
        Quote: Constanty
        The British were paid in pure gold for deliveries that did not fall under the Leand-Lease, and before it was signed.


        By the way, transactions were also paid in gold or in foreign currency in addition to Lend-Lease. And this was the case throughout the war.
        1. Avior
          Avior 20 November 2020 16: 58
          -1
          In addition to Lend Lease, there was also regular international trade. They were sold caviar, furs, ore, they bought something from them, which for some reason they could not buy on Lend Lease
    4. awdrgy
      awdrgy 23 November 2020 10: 27
      0
      In short, by our standards, greedy and prudent cowards who are accustomed to leaving at someone else's expense Parasites (and their entire colonial policy shows this) on the planet's body This is the difference between us Lend-Lease would pay off so that they would not poke their skin under the bullets If the USSR stopped the offensive in the 44th (but this was impossible for moral reasons and for economic reasons too) the Germans would have dared them without leaving a stone unturned These parasites calculated everything in preparation for this massacre called World War II And pay attention to the scale of special operations This is Hitler's drive to power and pumping Germany and Japan with the means for waging war surrender of territories and countries to strengthen the power of the aggressors What are the reasons? One Pearl Harbor of what is worth You involuntarily ponder, although there is even a certainty that with the First World War the same plan (but more subtle because at the head of empires there were still incomplete puppets as in the future) The same supranational administration turns out And if everything is clear with reasons the impact can be made rudely (very rudely) having a lot of money planning where and when (like the murder of an archduke) and if there is a lot of money, then have spare options.But the preliminary work requires the presence of a no longer acidic organization and freely working in different countries with different ideology cultures and the mentality of the population It would be possible to believe in one coincidence (accident) of a whole heap of circumstances, as is admissible in WWI, but the revolution in Russia WWII collapse of the USSR is not a couple of times (coincidence), but three or more times (regularity) - a system conceived, planned and executed There is no doubt that Germany was defeated by the USSR and its contribution to the victory was maximum. But who won in WWII? The USSR did not want this war at all (did not plan it to be more precise), which means that not its goals and objectives were fulfilled (and this cannot be denied) Whose goals and objectives were fulfilled by 100 percent and won The conclusion is not pleasant (for me too) well how else? There are goals, there are tasks and there is a result
  • Cyril G ...
    Cyril G ... 20 November 2020 12: 23
    +7
    The question is not about that by the way. In fact, the Red Army stopped the Nazis and turned the tide of the war exactly when the Lend-Lease flowed in a thin stream.
  • Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 20 November 2020 13: 38
    +2
    Quote: BlackMokona
    Well, let's listen to the war hero Marshal Zhukov.

    Is it Zhukov? Maybe a fragment of V.E. Sevenfold in the Central Committee of the CPSU about the moods of G.K. Zhukov?
    https://alexanderyakovlev.org/fond/issues-doc/1004765
    Who denies the importance of the help of the "allies"? You also say that the help was disinterested ... We were told that Stalin shot millions of citizens ... And Stalin shot at least one "enemy of the people"?
    True, the supporters of the globalization of "allied aid" forget about the supplies to the citizen Adolf Aloisovich from the same American "zagashniki" ...
  • Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 20 November 2020 11: 33
    +7
    Yes, everyone does not care who, how and where he fought.
    The main thing is who has access to the means of disseminating information. Whose version of events is drummed into the heads of people around the world.
    After all, it has long been known that it does not matter how it was in reality, the main thing is that people know about it.
    And they know what shienen, bibisi and other facebooks show them.
    And if you look at where and whose troops are now, then the question of the winners will also disappear by itself.
    Even if they won not really in 1945, but in 1991, does that make it easier for us?
  • Egoza
    Egoza 20 November 2020 11: 33
    +2
    "The Soviet Union would not have won any victory if not for the help of the allies."

    But in order to avoid such statements, the Foreign Ministry and the President need to work without any curtsey to the "partners". And a huge amount of work must be constantly carried out with young people. Literally from kindergarten to "infinity"
  • Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 20 November 2020 11: 36
    0
    Everything is simple, the loss of equipment and personnel on the fronts will be looked at and it will become clear.
    1. Blackmokona
      Blackmokona 20 November 2020 11: 39
      -6
      Everything is simple, the loss of equipment and personnel on the fronts will be looked at and it will become clear.

      Who lost the most people and the best general? wassat
      1. Horon
        Horon 20 November 2020 12: 43
        +3
        No, probably the African Mumbu-Yumbu tribe had the best generals at that time, since they did not participate in the war and, accordingly, did not lose people! fool
        The effectiveness of generals must be assessed by the strength and quality of the enemy opposing them, the number of battles, victories won and against this background the number of their own losses.
        1. Blackmokona
          Blackmokona 20 November 2020 12: 48
          -6
          That is, you need to look at the K / D ratio. Murders and deaths. And you only offered to look at death wassat
          1. Horon
            Horon 20 November 2020 12: 59
            +1
            This is what you suggested:
            Who lost the most people and the best general?

            Tea forgotten! negative
            1. Blackmokona
              Blackmokona 20 November 2020 13: 06
              -6
              It’s not me, but you don’t call me here either.


              Pessimist22 (Igor)
              Today, 11: 36
              NEW
              Everything is simple, the loss of equipment and personnel on the fronts will be looked at and it will become clear.
  • Avior
    Avior 20 November 2020 11: 47
    +3
    I wonder who claims that Britain or the United States were the main winners.
    About the fact that the USSR was the main winner, I had to read and hear, and even about something not like the USSR, but the RSFSR alone, I even heard this, as one person explained to some Doctor on a motorcycle.
    But I haven't heard of the United States or Britain.
    1. Free wind
      Free wind 20 November 2020 11: 57
      -1
      Yes, our people came up with this fairy tale, and then they themselves were horrified, and began to accuse everyone around about rewriting history. As well as the tale that the Japanese are drummed into that the USSR dropped the atomic bombs on them. although they are well aware of the existence in Japan of heaps of museums dedicated to this bombing. We are the main rewriters.
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 20 November 2020 12: 26
        -1
        Quote: Free Wind
        We are the main rewriters.


        Who are you who? I live in Russia - and they didn’t come up with fairy tales about WWII, unlike uh partners ... And yes, the Japanese noneshnie extremely vaguely answer the question of who sniffed them. Two answers. At worst, Russia, at best, some "allies"
        1. Bolt cutter
          Bolt cutter 20 November 2020 13: 43
          +3
          School education in Japan is quite good. So they all know about nuclear bombing.
        2. Avior
          Avior 20 November 2020 16: 31
          +1
          And can you give a link that somewhere in the West this was seriously stated?
          I've never seen that.
  • deniso
    deniso 20 November 2020 11: 49
    -4
    Goebbels lives and wins. Any monstrous lie in the West has a right to exist if it is directed against Russia. The scoundrels who were waiting for as many Soviet soldiers to die as possible, then to enter the war to divide up the trophies, now claim that the USSR has nothing to do with victory. Infernal! Meanness in a cube. Our lives mean nothing to them. This is the essence of Europeans and Americans. Their religion is profit. Their god is the dollar. Their moral is meanness. Their apostles are murderers. Their mercy is ruthlessness. We seem to be from different planets. We will never understand or accept each other.
  • Sentinel-vs
    Sentinel-vs 20 November 2020 11: 56
    +4
    What is there to be surprised if 90% of modern Russian films about the war show how miserable everything was in the Red Army, how the soldiers were oppressed by stupid NKVD officers, what bloodthirsty man-eating tyrants were the generals. All were alcoholics and libertines, from private to marshal. Why be surprised if from the films about the Second World War over the past 30 years you can count on the fingers of one hand worthy pictures. All the rest are aimed at humiliating the Soviet government and Stalin personally, at a perverted reflection of history, where ordinary men won despite the incompetent leadership. In our country, before our very eyes, history is misinterpreted and smeared, and then we wonder why there is such a trend in the world to belittle the feat of the Red Army.
  • Alexfly
    Alexfly 20 November 2020 12: 02
    -4
    Everything is quite simple: first, transfer the winners' arrows to the USA and England, etc., equating the USSR with the perpetrators of WWII, and then declaring our country the axis of evil, legalizing the unleashing of a new campaign of persecution, etc. Although without Lend Lease, the country would most likely have choked with a shortage of metal and explosives .... 41-42 years, there was material hunger in the country, many military industries ceased to exist or changed their registration.
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 20 November 2020 12: 10
      +2
      Quote: AlexFly
      41-42 years old, there was material hunger in the country,

      Have you heard about the state reserves? 12% of the gunpowder used in the war was produced from the reserves accumulated in the pre-war years.
      1. Alexfly
        Alexfly 20 November 2020 12: 24
        -3
        And sho? and the rest 88?
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 20 November 2020 12: 25
          0
          Quote: AlexFly
          And sho? and the rest 88?

          and the rest are not from reserves.
      2. Avior
        Avior 20 November 2020 12: 25
        -2
        Do you think that 12 percent of actually used cartridges would be enough?
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 20 November 2020 12: 27
          +3
          Quote: Avior
          Do you think that 12 percent of actually used cartridges would be enough?

          If it was enough the other 88 wouldn't do it. Or do you think they did, what would you ask questions about?
          1. Alexfly
            Alexfly 20 November 2020 12: 44
            -3
            Would you like, personally, to understate the merits of Lendleese, dear?
            1. mat-vey
              mat-vey 20 November 2020 12: 46
              +2
              Quote: AlexFly
              Would you like, personally, to understate the merits of Lendleese, dear?

              And you do not want to approach objectively? Without fairy tales of exaggeration and understatement?
            2. mat-vey
              mat-vey 20 November 2020 13: 10
              +1
              Well, judging by the "-" on objectivity - do not care.
          2. Avior
            Avior 20 November 2020 16: 32
            -2
            You haven't written about the rest.
            1. mat-vey
              mat-vey 20 November 2020 17: 25
              +1
              Quote: Avior
              You haven't written about the rest.

              They were made - imagine !! And used!
              1. Avior
                Avior 20 November 2020 17: 34
                -3
                With the help of Lend Lease supplies ....
                1. mat-vey
                  mat-vey 20 November 2020 17: 39
                  +1
                  Quote: Avior
                  With the help of Lend Lease supplies ....

                  Well, there were ready-made ones, but mostly after 1942. With ready-made ones, there were also ambiguous problems. But with nitroglycerin propellants for a large caliber, they helped a lot, otherwise I would have only had to make pyroxylin powders, and this would reduce the volume of art propellants.
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 20 November 2020 18: 14
                    -3
                    The main role of Lend Lease is the closure of bottlenecks and problem areas by the unbalanced evacuation and war of Soviet industry.
                    From the lists, they chose what might not have cost much, but without it, the production of the main products stalled.
                    This is the story that there was no nail in the forge.
                    And Lend Lease quickly enough covered these problem areas - armor plates, aluminum, ballistic powder, machine tools, complex equipment.
                    The T-34 tank cost two hundred thousand rubles, and the brake bands made of special steel for it were a penny, but without them the tank would not be released.
                    In the production of gunpowder and explosives, again, they ordered primarily not only finished elements, but components and equipment. But gunpowder and explosives were ordered ready-made.
                    Cars came in sets in the form of an assembly box, as in Ikea.
                    This was the first and main role of Lend Lease, and not the final product, let alone the weapon.
  • Dmitry Makarov
    Dmitry Makarov 20 November 2020 12: 11
    -5
    What's wrong?
    The Nazis built 1000 to destroy the American sea convoys! - A thousand submarines.
    To repel the American carpet bombing, the Nazis kept on the Western Front
    40 anti-aircraft guns with a caliber of 000/88/128 mm. , and thousands of Focke-Wulfs with Messerschmitts.
    But instead of 1000 submarines, they could build tens of thousands of "Panthers", and 40 anti-aircraft guns could become anti-tank, and burn our "Thirty-fours and ISs" at distant approaches!
    Why are we overlooking these aspects?
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 20 November 2020 12: 27
      -1
      In humans, on the other hand, it didn't really cost anything.
      1. Avior
        Avior 20 November 2020 16: 33
        -1
        Yes, they took care of their people as much as possible.
        A good habit for leaders, isn't it?
    2. 2 Level Advisor
      2 Level Advisor 20 November 2020 13: 04
      0
      The main winner of the USSR, and this is indisputable!
      but at the same time they helped us .. what's wrong with that if you admit it? Is this how it will reduce the feat of the Grandfathers or what? than? like humiliating a feat, if in a Mongolian sheepskin coat you fire from a Soviet gun oiled with imported oil, set fire to a tank with a shell with English gunpowder and Soviet iron, and after the battle eat amer's stew, and then report on the Lendleys radio, of which there were 90% in the army? Where is the decrease in the feat of our Soldiers? In that now relations with amers are bad? And where does today?
      For me personally, absolutely their help to our victory will not decrease in any way .. because ours shed more blood than anyone else .. the rest are on the sidelines .. all the same, it is not the stew wins, but the soldier ..
      And thank God that they helped us with both the material and the front, and they took the Yaps over themselves, otherwise Dedov would have returned less ... and thanks to the allies for that .. And besides ... what's strange that the Americans are more important than their 400000 dead what do our millions think? all the same they are from another country, and "their own shirt is closer to the body" ..
      1. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 20 November 2020 17: 00
        -1
        Nothing. It's bad that they helped us at the most critical time in an extremely metered way ... A thin babbling stream in 1941-1943, became a wide river already in 1945
        1. Free wind
          Free wind 20 November 2020 17: 25
          -1
          at the beginning of the Lend-Lease, the Americans themselves had to prepare their own logistics, start building ships by accelerated methods, at least to decide what kind of ships are needed, this is also not done in one day. And we didn't have much where to take these goods. And in 45, they received help already for a peaceful life, or rather, their industry was transferred to a peaceful track.
        2. Avior
          Avior 20 November 2020 17: 45
          -1
          1943 was just a critical moment.
          Soviet industry was already at its limit, and the Germans only in 1943 decided to transfer industry to a wartime regime, before that they worked in a peaceful manner, with a sharp increase in war production.
        3. 2 Level Advisor
          2 Level Advisor 20 November 2020 17: 55
          -2
          in 41, there could be no direct deliveries from the United States, there was no talk about this and did not go, in fact, crumbs came only from England, which itself was not a lot and the submarines were mastering around, and our people did not ask much at the Moscow conference in 1941 ( 400 aircraft (100 bombers and 300 fighters), 500 tanks, 10 trucks [000], 7 tonnes of aluminum, 2 tonnes of toluene, 1250 tonnes of tank armor by June 1, 30.06.1942), almost all on time they delivered.
          Normal more or less deliveries - the beginning of 28.12.1941/04.12.1941/1, why? Because serious negotiations with the Amers began only on 1941/41/2 - earlier the United States had not fought and was not an ally to us, but negotiations with the Angles ended on October 1942, XNUMX, deliveries began at the end of October XNUMX, i.e. XNUMX months left until NG. Those. Serious supplies began to arrive at the end of the battle near Moscow, by the spring of XNUMX, for obvious reasons, the most difficult time was without them, this is a fact .. But there were no contracts about them before ..
          Over the years, you are wrong, Kirill ... the maximum of military cargo fell on 1943, and military and civilian cargo together, a maximum of 1944 .. in 1945 - at the level of 1942, but these were not crumbs, but about 50% of 1943 ...
          In 1943-44 it was very timely and a lot of help was ... or were these years no longer tense in your opinion?
          I repeat ..
          The main winner of the USSR, and this is indisputable!
          but at the same time they helped us .. what's wrong with that if you admit it? Is this how it will reduce the feat of the Grandfathers, perhaps in your opinion?
      2. Ramzaj99
        Ramzaj99 21 November 2020 09: 03
        +1
        Quote: Level 2 Advisor
        but at the same time they helped us .. what's wrong with that if you admit it?

        The point is not that their contribution to the war is not recognized, the contribution was and no one has ever denied it.
        The fact is that it is often said that the contribution was DECISIVE, and without it the USSR would definitely lose the war. The latest trend in the west is just that. See victory celebrations in the west. There is not even a theoretical mention of the fact that the USSR made any contribution at all. The Battle of Kursk was not even included in the west in the list of great battles. One cannot agree with this in any way.
        1. 2 Level Advisor
          2 Level Advisor 21 November 2020 09: 20
          -1
          You are talking about what NOW think and say in the West .. Yes, many of them say something like that .. but what does this have to do with the facts of 75 years ago? I replied to those who say that they really did not help us, lend-lease garbage, the sense from it is 0, etc. You see, I’m talking about facts .. and what is there who is there today and where he says, the facts do not change from this ..
          If you are about the perception of Victory in the West today, then this is another matter entirely, I did not talk about it .. Although, on the other hand, we cannot tell them what to think, plus "every sandpiper is his own swamp" - so it is logical behavior is not strange .. why the Americans should remember and honor the soldiers of the Red Army, they have their own veterans who fought, we have our own .. The main thing for us is not to forget ..
          By the way I thought something .. we had warriors with the highest awards of the United States awarded .. and ours did not meet, to be awarded, no one knows, were they?
          1. Ramzaj99
            Ramzaj99 21 November 2020 12: 44
            +1
            Quote: Level 2 Advisor
            they have their own veterans who fought, we have our own .. The main thing for us is not to forget ..

            That's just the point. They calmly celebrate as winners without remembering the USSR, but every time our gwald rises: - if it weren't for Lend-Lease ... and so on and so forth.
            About the awards. They also rewarded a lot. Orders of the Patriotic War of I and II degrees, Orders of the Red Star, Orders of Kutuzov, Suvorov and Nevsky.
            There is an interesting resource, if you need to throw a link.
            1. 2 Level Advisor
              2 Level Advisor 21 November 2020 13: 47
              -1
              I will be grateful for the link .. well, the main thing for us is our truth and our memory, they are ours, you cannot embed it in their heads, and the main episode they have is that the war in the Pacific is considered .. all the more, the new generation is what they have, what with us .. only from the Internet, as it knew .. eyewitnesses, count already and no ..
              And unfortunately, if you measure by how much they "snatched" from the results of the war, and did not contribute to the victory, they really come first ..
              Yes, it’s sad, but it’s true, over the years the facts "mutate" .. for example, even 100 years ago, if you asked in Russia about Turkish enemies they would call them, with whom they fought 350 times in 12 years (67 years in total). And now - "partners", people go on vacation, do business, etc. ... And how many ancestors were killed in these wars? And only recently, they show themselves again ..
              1. Ramzaj99
                Ramzaj99 21 November 2020 16: 39
                +1
                Here they post photocopies of award documents, there are very curious ones.
                https://forum.faleristika.info/viewtopic.php?t=473069
                1. 2 Level Advisor
                  2 Level Advisor 22 November 2020 08: 17
                  -1
                  thanks .. discovered a lot of new things ..
  • Gardamir
    Gardamir 20 November 2020 12: 42
    +8
    Those who won in Civil, and then in 1945, made a coup in 1991. And of course they are rewriting history, but pretend that it is somewhere in the West.
    Someone recently said that the exploits of the Heroes of the Great Patriotic War are too ideologized and therefore they get rid of ideologization.
    Tell me is the feat of Alexander Matrosov less from the fact that he was a communist.
    It's just that the heirs of Kolchak and Vlasov are in power now.
    1. Lexus
      Lexus 20 November 2020 18: 06
      -1
      Colleague good,
      a shoe-bearer with homies is a clear enemy. Restoration of the Great USSR = them the Court and the Khan.
  • Alexander Kopychev
    Alexander Kopychev 20 November 2020 14: 05
    +2
    I have saved bookmarks for my grandchildren on podvignaroda.ru about personal the exploits of their great-great-grandfathers, my grandfathers. Only in this way, from generation to generation, we will not plunge into this mud.
    1. Alexander Kopychev
      Alexander Kopychev 20 November 2020 14: 18
      +6
      And I will go to Putin's immortal regiment only when he removes his plywood from the mausoleum !!!
      1. Free wind
        Free wind 20 November 2020 17: 27
        -3
        with what cabbage he became Putin?
        1. Alexander Kopychev
          Alexander Kopychev 20 November 2020 18: 24
          +1
          "Putin's" is already a metaphor, and officials and patriots "can repeat" have brought the situation to the point of absurdity, in which liberals are swimming with their "victoriousness." When VVP stands on the Tribune of the mausoleum - then I will believe him.
    2. Avior
      Avior 20 November 2020 17: 04
      0
      I advise you to download and save, otherwise you never know.
      According to my grandfather, I downloaded and saved everything I could find.
      There is also the memory of the people, there are other materials on the participants of the Second World War, I advise you to look too.
      https://pamyat-naroda.ru/heroes/
      hi
      1. Alexander Kopychev
        Alexander Kopychev 20 November 2020 17: 17
        -1
        Thanks for the kind advice, I will do so, I will save screenshots of all documents. And the Memory of the people is also in my bookmarks, there I also found my grandfather's medal. Both of mine are back alive, His maternal grandfather fought on July 20, 41, on his father's side, since March 42, he was already 46 years old. Us wildly lucky !!! If not for this luck, I would not have been sitting here and writing. hi
        1. Avior
          Avior 20 November 2020 17: 41
          -1
          The grandfather left behind a large and detailed map of Europe, on which he once drew in great detail his combat path - from the place of conscription to Stalingrad, Warsaw and Berlin.
          It’s a pity that now you don’t learn much.
          Only from award sheets and a bundle of thanks ...
          1. Alexander Kopychev
            Alexander Kopychev 20 November 2020 19: 04
            -1
            You're lucky. I saw a similar map only in the GSVG, in my guards Uman tank division, EBN disbanded it. The elder grandfather did not live to see my birth for 16 years. A "young" grandfather told me, a kid, like pike in streams, and he shot rabbits in the woods in Poland from the PPSh. And nothing else ... And in the award lists I read about bombing and shelling. I was a signalman with a coil. Modest were Our grandfathers... Not that costumed " beside Putin at parades.
  • iouris
    iouris 21 November 2020 11: 54
    +1
    The thesis is not correct. The USSR is seen as defeated at the "end of history". The USSR is not "mastered". They will master the entire USSR. The Turkish and Polish project has already begun to be promoted. For victory in WWII you have to fight.