"Not 10 to one": on the losses of Soviet and German aviation

Today, among the youth, the so-called rap battles have gained popularity (confrontation between famous, little-known and unknown rappers). As it turns out, not only rappers, but also bloggers have their accounts with each other. Disputes and "battles" in this case are most often in absentia.

Some time ago, "Voennoye Obozreniye" talked about the story of Mikhail Timin about how difficult it was at the initial stage of the war for Soviet pilots in confronting Hitler's counterparts. Then the famous writer, journalist and video blogger Mikhail Timin (Tactic Media channel) presented his own estimates of the ratio of aircraft losses. According to his version: 10 to 1 is not in favor of the USSR. This version was supported by other bloggers.

This version was decided to challenge another blogger talking about the Great Patriotic War (in particular, about aviation its component), - Vladimir Potapov. Vladimir is known for his videos on the Sky Artist channel. A dispute arose in absentia.

Vladimir Potapov:

The people are at a loss. Panic. I hasten to assure you. It is too early to tear the hair out and sprinkle the ashes on the head ...

According to Vladimir Potapov, the Hitlerite pilots did not have such an advantage, and the losses of the Soviet and German aviation were definitely not 10 to one.
On the arguments not in favor of Mikhail Timin's version - on the Sky Artist channel:

Comments

[Petrik66]

Who is a blogger? Is this a serious historian? Is this a specialist? He is not interested in the truth, he is interested in HYIP. Fart into a puddle louder, get new subscribers from the category of educated people and the type of people interested in history. 10 to 1, it really sounds hype. Why bother with boring documents, archives, etc. Bzdanul on air and became famous. Isaev is, of course, a passionate person, like any of us, but in all his books and broadcasts there are two things: documented statements and patriotism.
Replaying a lost war with beaten supermen is an objective process at all times and in any country. We laugh when we read the awkward stories about how a chef with an ax captured a tank, but we firmly believe in the fables about Hartman the great and terrible or Rudel who alone destroyed a tank army. It doesn't smell like objectivity here, but smells like an aggressive lie of the creative minority.

[nnm]

Colleague, as I understood from your post - you obviously never listened to Timin. On the contrary, he always speaks only with reference to specific historical documents, moreover, not scattered, but systematized in parts, formations both from our side, and precisely according to the German ones that opposed them in this sector. You can talk a lot about the difference in counting methods, yes. But the fact that he does not just reason, but cites precisely the data of the archives - Thymin cannot be denied.
By the way, with Hartman and so on, he also speaks about the unreliability of these data every time he answers

[Pushkaryov]

To understand that there is shit in front of you, do you have to try it on your tongue? I have enough smell, if I do not believe my eyes.

[Bar1]

so, but it is about the DIRECT LIE of this Timan, he replaced 10% with 60%. Where did he get this 60%?

[Torins]

Timin just refers to archives, and not abstract, but concrete ones. He also refers to the memoirs of Soviet pilots, when two weeks after arriving at the front, less squadron remained from the regiment. My grandfather, who went through the war, also talked about the incredible turnover of personnel in the regiment. I'm not saying that Timin is 100% right, but it makes sense to at least listen to his opinion, especially since he is not alone in his conclusions, he is supported by serious researchers In addition, he talks exclusively about losses in the material part, and here you must remember that the quality of production of Soviet aviation was such that the planes were sometimes written off before they reached the front, not to mention the non-combat losses in frontline conditions.

[EvilLion]

Did the Germans have a turnover? In the infantry units of EMNIP, 100% of their composition changed in 3 months, and in the Red Army in 5.

[Torins]

Nobody argues about the German turnover in the infantry regiments.

[Glory1974]

he talks exclusively about losses in the material part and here you must remember that the quality of production of Soviet aviation was such that the planes were sometimes written off before they reached the front, not to mention non-combat losses in front-line conditions.

It is difficult to talk about the loss of only the material part. This is a half-truth, which is no different from a lie, and maybe even worse.
According to the statistics of the USSR on the loss of pilots in 4th or 5th place. That is, Germany, the USA, England lost more pilots than the USSR. It turns out that out of 10 aircraft shot down, 1 pilot died in our country, and 10 pilots out of 9 shot down planes from the Fritzes died. How so? There cannot be such a ratio, therefore the whole method is not correct.

[Petrik66]

If you read the memoirs of our pilots, then there are always mentions of non-combat losses, crashed, crashed, crashed .. air regiments "- from July 4 to December 1942, 1, 15 accidents and 1941 catastrophes occurred in the internal districts and reserve aviation regiments, while personnel losses amounted to 586 people perished (!!!), and 337 aircraft were destroyed. This is about the "methods" of calculating our losses.

[Glory1974]

In first place - Japan: 60,750 pilots killed
In second place - Germany: 57.137 killed pilots.
In third place - England: 56.821 killed the pilot.
In fourth place - USA: 40,061 killed the pilot.
And on the FIFTH, the last place - the USSR: 34.500 killed pilots.

The methods may be different, but there are such figures.
you wrote that 604 people died in accidents in six months, that is, do you think that they were not included in the list of combat losses?

[Petrik66]

I believe that they were not shot down by the Germans, Romanians, Slovaks or Italians with the Finns.

[Andrey sh]

You think badly. These accidents were caused not only by technical problems, but by damage during the fighting. But they are not included in combat losses. And each board had more than one person - on transport aircraft up to 50 people could fly as far as I remember. At the beginning of the war, TRANSPORT aircraft were used at the front and as night bombers in squares. My grandfather told me that they almost manually dropped some ammunition, such as thermite - at the command of the navigator, he pulled the detonator rope and kicked it into the hatch ...

[Glory1974]

These accidents were caused not only by technical problems, but by damage during the fighting. But they are not included in combat losses.

How did it get damaged in battle, but was written off as an accident? What for?
There are always 2 columns of combat and non-combat losses

on transporters up to 50 people could fly as far as I remember.

If 50 people flew on a transport plane, they are not all pilots. 2-3 pilots, the rest are passengers.
Transport aircraft can still be used as bombers. In the combat training program there is an exercise for transport aviation pilots: "Bombing an enemy with free-falling bombs."

[Andrey sh]

And the aircraft with the steering system damaged in the battle, which welled up during landing - are these combat losses or not? The fact of the matter is that they are not combat ... Yes, and everyone on the plane can remain intact and in a couple of days fight on another device ...

[Glory1974]

And the aircraft with the steering system damaged in battle, which welled up during landing - are these combat losses or not?

And a plane with an engine damaged in battle, which welled up when returning to the airfield - is it a combat loss or not?
Such reasoning can lead to insanity, when lawyers excuse a criminal and claim that a person died not from a blow to the head, but from hitting his head on the asphalt after receiving a blow.

[tomket]

Quote: glory1974

The methods may be different, but there are such figures.
you wrote that 604 people died in accidents in six months, that is, do you think that they were not included in the list of combat losses?

By the way, the peculiarity of the Il-2, with all its shortcomings, was that it was forced to save the life of the pilot. If we take the fv-190, then after stopping the engine, it turned into a log, and in order to plant it, a special technique was even developed, where it was necessary to dive, level it up and sit down near the ground. It would be very interesting to look at the statistics of the return to service after being forced to fv-190

[Avior]

Many factors to consider
Fought mainly over your own or enemy's territory?
Over land or over the sea?
And so on

[Pushkaryov]

Well, yes, we have a "staff turnover", and the Fritzes are all "tili-bom", they don't know what to do with the aces - overproduction. And we are their corpses, corpses, corpses ... The Fritzes immediately lose their spirits, the desire to fight with the Untermensch disappears and they sadly align the front line, just so as not to mess with us. And they are fighting, solely out of the kindness of their soul: what if we will be offended that they surrendered so soon into captivity. For the sake of respect for us sires, the Fritzes even handed over Berlin to us (just for the sake of order, they shot and - that's it!). We are an ungrateful people!

[Timofey Charuta]

10 to 1 in favor of the Germans - this is what Isaev has, only in terms of total losses in people (see, for example, his videos where he talks about the Smolensk battle). Yes, the Germans were stopped near Smolensk, but at what cost!

10 ours for 1 fritz. The first impression from what he saw and heard, including Timin - here it is, filling the Germans with corpses. turned into scrap by Soviet technology in all its ugliness! Of course, Isaev and Timin do not say so directly, but the conclusions from their words suggest themselves. Why then scold the writings about the Great Patriotic War liberals for foreign grants and hope to be published in the West?

One gets the impression that a new project has been launched. Rezun and others like him have fewer supporters - the people have become literate, they find and read documents themselves. It seems that the Rezunam have been replaced in the spirit of modern requirements. New ones do not crawl out of the German archives, they cover up opponents with documents ... And the conclusions, in fact, are the same.

To the question "Have you, so and so, watched at least one video of these respected bloggers ?!" I answer - I saw everything! I watched with interest, Isaev is captivated by a general patriotic mood, Timonin, too, seems to be not an enemy., Is often very convincing.

But in fact now it has become clear and understandable - WE WILL NEVER RECOGNIZE THE REAL LOSS NUMBERS, NOR OUR, NOR GERMAN! Open access to the archives only confused the whole matter, the problem is. who will watch these archives ...

In general, I am not against documents, I respect people who love and know how to work with them, otherwise the Finns made a film about the Winter War and Marshal Mannerheim turned out to be a Negro with great sexual potential ...

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%88%D0%B0%D0%BB_%D0%A4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%B8_(%D1%84%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BC)

[tomket]

Quote: Timofey Charuta

10 to 1 in favor of the Germans - this is what Isaev has, only in terms of total losses in people (see, for example, his videos where he talks about the Smolensk battle). Yes, the Germans were stopped near Smolensk, but at what cost!

Do you think that the figure 1:10 has both established and remained unchanged constant? Surprise you it is not. There are battles and battles where they played well, and there are where it is very bad. And the same Isaev speaks directly about this. But if you are only interested in counting how many to how many, then why bother to analyze the Second World War?

[Timofey Charuta]

Not convincing. Timin just brought out the GENERAL RESULT of the war in the air on the Eastern Front.
What does it have to do with individual battles? The battles are different, but the overall result is the same and, according to Timin, is crushing for us. Honestly, it's a shock for me!

But disputes on this topic WILL NEVER END AND NO ARCHIVES WILL HELP US!
One word - fog of war ...

[Sergei Sovetkin]

Any doubts about Rudel and Hartman ??

[tomket]

Quote: Sergei Sovetkin

Any doubts about Rudel and Hartman ??

Is there any reason to believe?

[Sergei Sovetkin]

Unconditional

[Omskgasmyas]

Just another "Kolya s Urengoy" appeared. There is no number for them, some bluntly twist into a psychic attack, others have prepared and are attacking Victory with a figure in their hands. I have come across the following generalized data: Soviet aviation - combat losses of 46 thousand aircraft, losses in accidents and for unknown reasons 40 thousand. German aviation - combat losses of 52 thousand aircraft, non-combat 12 thousand aircraft.
I want to remind those who foaming at the mouth proves that half of the Reich fighters fought against the raids of Anglo-American bombers and died on the Western Front that fighters accounted for 30% of aircraft production in Germany. Consequently, the remaining pitiful 70% of German aircraft were bombers, reconnaissance aircraft and attack aircraft. They fought and died over the front line. And 3/4 of the German military machine, including aviation, ground the Red Army.

[nnm]

Good afternoon, colleagues!
1. Immediately it is necessary to emphasize the fact that Timin makes a reservation that a significant part of our losses were at the airfields in June and in the confusion of 41g.
2. Likewise, for the Germans at 45, when the remnants of their aircraft, in fact, left on the ground after the surrender were not recorded in our asset, but in fact, should.
3. Timin provides links to real combat documents, reports, data from archives, etc.
4. From Potapov similar work is not visible in the military archives. You can argue as much as you like, quote memoirs, logical calculations - but a historical document is a historical document. And Potapov has a hard time with this. Unlike Timin, who cross-references to specific Soviet, German historical documents describing dates, times, forces and means and the results of battles.

And the most important thing - Timin said a hundred times - such a ratio does not discredit the fact that our soldiers, often with the worst equipment, knocked out the entire color of the Luftwaffe! On the contrary, no one in Europe was able to do what our pilots with a pair of "takeoff-landing" could accomplish with those who just passed through France in a few weeks, etc. Taking into account 41g. such a ratio does not in any way indicate our weakness, cowardice, etc. Quite the opposite - they were able to, stopped and turned back those who flew victoriously over the whole of Europe.

[rocket757]

There were, there were tragic episodes and losses, both at the beginning of the war and in the future ... but the result is still the same, victory in everything and finally.
The price of victory is high, and this must always be remembered.

[nnm]

This is exactly what I wanted to say, colleague! That was our VICTORY and that says it all! And now trying to talk about the fact that at every moment we were stronger in all issues and at all levels is to make exactly the same mistakes as before 41. - "with little blood and on foreign territory!" On the contrary, we need to draw impartially lessons from our own mistakes so as not to repeat them again. After all, from the fact that we will now begin to convince ourselves that in 41g. there were no millions of our captured fighters, cauldrons, retreat, etc. - it will only get worse for ourselves, because without accepting mistakes, we will be doomed to repeat them again and again.

[rocket757]

Truth is often bitter ... and all the same, only it can, should, be useful.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: rocket757

The price of victory is high

Unfortunately, the then ideoluchs tried to keep silent about the price of this victory, which was just an ideotic decision.
With regards to Timin - If I understood him correctly, the losses in about 9000-9500 Nazi aircraft, this is a complete non-return prescribed in the documents - like a wreck behind the front line. However, there are also questions to his figures. Another voiced figure of about 25000 Nazi planes disabled and destroyed, this figure came from the West.
Now further - combat losses in the USSR Air Force are in the region of 46 aircraft. However, we also lost no less for non-combat reasons.
IMHO calculating the losses of the Germans is extremely difficult - a lot has been written on this topic.
In addition, to the losses of the Germans, one must certainly add the losses of various Rymans, Romanians, Hungarians and other Slovaks on the "eastern" front

[rocket757]

Nobody likes to show their losses ... the rulers are all the same. It's just that the conditions of public control are different everywhere ... our previous state was not famous for its openness. We must admit this fact and try to prevent this from happening in the future.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: rocket757

We must admit this fact and try to prevent this from happening in the future.

I do not argue with this formulation of the question. It is simply ridiculous to hide losses.
However, there are significantly more questions about calculating German losses.

[rocket757]

That is not the only thing that was hushed up / the data was distorted, it is not clear why.
Well, when they could not immediately determine and give out approximate ones, at least some .... over time, after a thorough analysis, inaccuracies can be corrected, this is CLEAR! But when a vow of silence is drawn on inaccuracies, this is no longer possible to understand.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: rocket757

But when a vow of silence is stretched on inaccuracies, this is no longer possible to understand.

That's for sure. But the USSR Navy was the coolest in terms of lies. The three-volume loss of the USSR submarine was still secret for 1994, and the successes were overestimated mineium times by pilots, and by 10 times by boatmen.

[rocket757]

Victory will write off everything!
After the victory, we didn't have time to mourn everyone.
Such is the situation in the world and it will not be possible to ignore it.
Now it makes no sense to arrange debriefing. If possible, correct the injustice that can still be corrected, always remember what happened and not repeat the previous mistakes.
That's it.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: rocket757

Now it makes no sense to arrange debriefing.

We must understand the price of victory, and that we have no easy and pleasant enemies who cannot do anything.

[meandr51]

The Americans surpassed the USSR 5 times in calculating their losses in Iraq.

[user1212]

Quote: nnm

Timin provides links to real combat documents, reports, data from archives, etc.

Bring it where it is convenient for him, but he ignores documents directly refuting his conclusions. This is the common practice of all "historians".

[nnm]

How to understand ignores? Well, bring these documents! But just like him, not single data on one sortie of one regiment in one day, but as Timin does - for the entire time of the operation, for all units and formations both from our side and from the German side. So far, I have not seen such refutations from anyone.

[Petrik66]

I agree with you that Timin in his book gives a lot of statistics. The only question is what tasks were set in the preparation of these documents. Let me give you a simple example6 Annual balance sheet of a company. The financial director, if he is a competent specialist, will give you three versions of this document with completely different numbers, depending on what task is assigned to him. Behind each number in the balance are specific interests, specific people. The director of the plant, having debts of 3,2 yards, in the annual report indicates 1,8 (this is from personal experience. So what? While everyone believes (for whom this is compiled). There is a saying that nowhere do they lie like in hunting, fishing and in war Why do we think that the Hans did not do the same? Statistics is just a set of numbers and it is important who inserts them and why. Have you ever wondered why, according to German documents, they had the greatest losses of tanks during the loss of Poltava? No, there was a system of German accounting for tank losses and a tank repair plant. The question is not to the author, but to his conclusions based on the idea that the German will not lie.

[nnm]

Let me use your analogy. This is what your fig director is doing - the height of idiocy. Therefore, as a competent consultant will advise the owner to request data from sales books, turnover, acts of reconciliation with counterparties, the budget, turnover of the bank and compare them with 1.8. And yours will instantly fly out of office. And the difference between Timin is precisely in the fact that he, declaring the figure, precisely confirms it with all acts, bank statements, sales, etc. And he also compares it with the documents of the opposite side. Conditionally - from the tax and bank side.
And I will repeat once again, closer to the topic - I said right away - the difference in the calculation method can and should be discussed, but so far we are talking exclusively about the figures of the official archives.

[Petrik66]

)))))) I am a practitioner and I know that the owner will never do what you offer. He, the owner, is interested in what money would be transferred to France (such a country) once every six months. You would also say about the audit ... People live here and now. Imagine, three generals come to Adik and report: My Fuhrer, we all three Slegans screwed up and the Russians piled on us to the very best. They were: the 1st - 500 against his 000, the 150nd - 000 against his 2 and the 500rd - 000 against his 120. We killed them 000st = 3, 150nd - 000, and the third decided tell the truth that I'm not really sure, but that the losses are about equal. Let's guess at once, which of the three will receive lullies and organizational conclusions with demotion and a trip to the penalty area? Orders, titles, positions, money, after all. All this was needed here and now, but nobody ever needs the truth. Documents, there is a cover for the lies of a particular general or the entire system in general. Why bother Brezhnev with bad news? So they wrote what they wanted, see above in response. Judging by your age, you should remember about the struggle with postscripts. There, too, there was a bunch of documents - you can't dig, but nothing to check. Is it all wrong with the Hans?

[nnm]

Quote: Petrik66

I am a practitioner and I know that the owner will never do what you suggest. He, the owner, is interested in what money would be transferred to France (such a country) once every six months. You would also say about the audit ... People live here and now.

It is strange that the office is still alive in this situation. Although the hidden debt suggests that this may not be for long. Here are how many private offices he did not work (with multibillion-dollar turnover) - everywhere the owners always carried out real, the most severe control over their assets. You say absolutely unfamiliar things to me - when the owner simply gives his business to ruin the management.

[Oprichnik]

Now I am translating the memoirs of PW Stahl (PV Stahl) of the German pilot U-88 "Kampfflieger zwischen Eismeer und Sahara" (Bomber pilot - from the polar sea to the Sahara). He, in comparison with other Germans, describes his activities in detail and sensibly. But almost nowhere does he mention the losses of the Luftwaffe, except for the actions of partisans in Ukraine. However, when describing the battles of the autumn-winter 1941 in the battles near Moscow, he has the following lines: "... 2 months have passed after the New Year and on March 7, my crew, along with the crew of the also surviving Kurt, is sent home to reorganize, as well as the remnants of the Kampfgruppen : KG 76, KG 77 and KG 54. " If the Germans did not have losses, as some "experts" claim, then where did the German aviation go and why the REMAINS of the 4 air regiments of bombers went to reorganize? And yet, in Latvia, 35 km from Dvinsk (the Russian city and the Russian population criminally transferred to the Latvians), the village of Sventa. Local residents said that in the summer of 1941 in its immediate vicinity, 5 German planes and three of ours fell, landed on the belly. Everything is not so simple with the German losses and the machinations of the Nazis when calculating their losses. It is a pity that some "truth-tellers" pour water on the mill of our enemies.

[nnm]

Colleague, the memoirs are not historical sources. Why are you so selective? Well, quote Rudel or Vitman - they, according to their recollections, alone against the USSR, it seems, fought.

[Petrik66]

Vitman was killed in 1944, he was a tanker and did not have time to write his memoirs.

[nnm]

I apologize, O. Kariusa, of course, meant.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote: nnm

Immediately it is necessary to emphasize the fact that Timin makes a reservation that a significant part of our losses were at the airfields in June and in the confusion of 41g.

Then there is nothing to talk about. At the airfields, we lost so many planes that the Germans never claimed to destroy.
The feeling is that a very large proportion of our aircraft at the beginning of the war were simply not capable of fighting for technical reasons

[DrEng527]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

was simply incapacitated for technical reasons

the usual trouble is spare parts and lack of fuel, which, when retreating, leads to terrible losses ...

[Boa kaa]

Quote: nnm

From Potapov, similar work in the military archives is not visible.

Colleague, if you carefully watched Potapov's material, you should have noticed that the method of calculating the losses of Mr. Timin is being contested. And she's wrong. I was convinced of this by two facts cited in Potapov's material:
1. According to the calculations (methodology) of Timin, the Luftwaffe lost 14 thousand aircraft, and the Soviet trophy teams collected 21 thousand aircraft remains.
2. The German authors of the encyclopedia of the Second World War (generals and officers), on the basis of the same archival materials, show the loss figures at times different from Timin's data. And this happens for one simple reason - they count losses from 10% of aircraft damage. I think the Germans were not at all interested in increasing their losses. But they, unlike Mr. Timin, are specialists, professional military men, presumably with remnants of honor and conscience. What I cannot say about Timin (about military professionalism).
Therefore, we are tedious to admit openly that the method of calculating losses, adopted by Timin, is false and does not correspond to the essence of the problem: "it will fly, it will not fly." Hence the result is also false, i.e. erroneous.
Sincerely.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

Therefore, we are tedious to admit openly that the method of calculating losses, adopted by Timin, is false and does not correspond to the essence of the problem: "it will fly, it will not fly." Hence the result is also false, i.e. erroneous.

I agree with you. I was interested in this issue - in the air war during the Second World War, especially in the naval theater of operations.

[Torins]

Yes, even in the memoirs of Soviet pilots who (memoirs) went through the crucible of censorship, an interesting thing slips. They do not give numbers of losses, but if you pay attention, for example, in Igor Kaberov's squadron, only two people survived until the end of the war from those who met the war on June 22. And this is a very good result. In many squadrons, no one went through the entire war from its first day.

[Boa kaa]

Quote: nnm

And most importantly - Timin said a hundred times - this ratio does not discredit the fact that our fighters ...

Timin first shows the "severed head", and then sheds crocodile tears over what a good person he was.
The numbers of losses (FACT!) Are much more convincing than Yaroslavna's groans on the fortress wall in Putivl! For - fact = 100% true. And the interpretation of a fact is from the angle of view and the position of the commentator.
Therefore, Timin deliberately, having applied his method of calculating losses, is trying to revise the combat effectiveness of the Red Army Air Force and thereby sow doubts in the minds of the public ignorant of military issues. And all this is done in the key - "Pyrrhic Victory, they filled up with corpses" - atu "bloody Stalinist regime". Timin is more dangerous than you think. his pseudo scientific character is built on a false basis (methodology). And the external entourage is quite nothing, scientific, convincing. Only his "gun" shoots in the wrong direction. He shoots at the government and the military leadership of the USSR. He's a renegade!

[vvvjak]

Quote: Boa constrictor KAA

Therefore, Timin deliberately, using his method of calculating losses, is trying to audit the combat effectiveness of the Red Army Air Force

To me, too, it reminded me of a comparison of the demographic losses of the population of the USSR in 50 mil. people (while maintaining the birth rate of the late 30s) with the loss of Wehrmacht soldiers in 7.5 mil. The result is 6,6 to 1, the conclusion is "corpses were piled up", sources are "British scientists", "they dripped in the archives", "innovative calculation methods", etc.

[Boa kaa]

This is one field of "berries" - grand-eaters of foreign NGOs, liberoids and other "public" unrecognized by the official historiography, thirsting for the laurels of fame.

[zenion]

nnm. Well, if on earth, then another matter. Then you can not shoot down, but set fire to so many, such a lot that the Germans could not count. When the next day they flew with adding machines, they could no longer find these airfields. By order of Stalin, the airfields were plowed up and the planes were planted deep, hoping that then new, whole planes would rise. But when they saw that the Germans would not be chased away the next year, they announced a drought in that area and the planes did not sprout. It is another matter if the Red Army had 100 aircraft and 60 of them were bombed by dropping boxes with torn galoshes onto the aircraft. But if you count in thousands, then they could not inflict strong damage due to the fact that the planes were supposed to, according to German tactics, help the infantry and bomb the front line. And the airfields were not in a heap or at a distance of 3-4 km. one from the other. Those who were close to the border, certainly not a dozen kilometers away, were hit by the bombing. But Kiev was bombed in the morning at 4 o'clock. I do not believe that on the way they threw everything that their eyes could see. Of course, such losses could not be. But, as the head physician of the madhouse said, that if the patient wants, it is impossible, but if he really wants, then he needs to be allowed within the ward and toilet.

[EvilLion]

Timin simply wrote to the game that in order to destroy an aircraft, it must be destroyed by at least 60% in the opinion of the Germans, which in no way reflects the realities of the front, when planes shot into the sieve flew in and flopped on their belly, after which the motors could still be intact, and this the most expensive, but the plane, after razderbanirovany what you can, just went to the landfill. Hence, in German documents, the threshold is 10%, since formally the damage may not be the greatest, but the repair is laborious enough so that it is not involved in the part. Strictly speaking, if your fuselage is wrinkled, then its repair requires non-standard manual work, it is more difficult than making it from a nude at the factory.

[Free wind]

Hartman was sentenced to 25 years for the destruction of 350 of our aircraft, such is the fact in our archives.

[Bar1]

Quote: Free Wind

Hartman was sentenced to 25 years for the destruction of 350 of our aircraft, such is the fact in our archives.

is there of course a link to this document?

[niksfromru]

And it seems that the materials of the court are the only "documentary" evidence of his military successes;)

[2112vda]

Hartmann was convicted of being a member of the Nazi party. Gerhard Barkhorn had fewer victories than Hartman. Nobody put him anywhere. It's just that Barkhorn was not a convinced Nazi. Known for his words that he does not shoot at the cockpit with the pilot. This pilot has a mother, a beautiful Russian woman. But the Nazi Hartman was imprisoned for his beliefs.

[vvvjak]

There are published figures for the production of aircraft of the USSR and Germany during the 2 MV period. 100-120 thousand units Germany and about the same amount of the USSR (+ about 50 thousand Lend-Lease). At the end of the war, the USSR had about 50 thousand, Germany about 0. The losses in quantitative ratio are approximately the same (about 100 thousand). What ratio of 10 to 1 can we talk about.
Py.Sy. figures from memory, please do not find fault

[Constanty]

I admit that I do not know the relationship of Luftwaffe casualties to WWS RKKA, and although, on the one hand, I doubt that this would have been suggested by Timin 1:10, your calculations, in my opinion, are incorrect.

The Germans lost their planes not only on the Eastern Front - these are one or two, which, on the one hand, since they lost the war, it can be assumed that they have 0 planes left, but in fact, thousands of undamaged and fully functional planes were at the airports in Germany , for example due to lack of fuel. It is difficult to consider them as combat losses and to be postponed to the WWS RKKA account.

[nnm]

+ thousands of aircraft in service on the date of the beginning of the Second World War, those released earlier in the war.

[vvvjak]

Quote: Constanty

The Germans lost their planes not only on the Eastern Front

Imagine, I'm aware of this. But even according to German sources, 70% of all their resources were on the eastern front.

Quote: Constanty

It is difficult to consider them as combat losses and to be postponed to WWS RKKA.

If you are talking about combat losses, then according to estimates (very rough) the figures are as follows: 900 of the best German aces "shot down" 50 thousand Soviet planes, + 36 thousand anti-aircraft gunners, + 12 thousand bombers. Everything seems to be beautiful - here they are 100 thousand lost aircraft of the USSR. But according to the Soviet side, 60% of aviation losses were not fighting losses. Considering that the resource of the Yak 1 engine is about 100 hours, I am inclined to believe this figure - the planes were simply "looted". Again, it is not clear what the rest of the German pilots were doing, unless the fighter pilots were released by as many as 63 thousand people.

[Constanty]

The explanation is "overclaim".
But it should also be remembered that the Germans suffered significant non-combat losses. The history of the Bf-109 in Swiss aviation is interesting - the early Emilies flew longer than the Gustavi even after the war - the latter's engines were heavily loaded, very unreliable and with a small resource. Very often the engine of the planes went out of order - the question is, how many Gustavs did not return from the sortie, not because they were shot down, but because the engine broke down?

However, this will not be reflected in the statistics - just - 100% loss - he did not return from the sortie.
The loss of the Luftwaffe - but on the account of WWS RKKA - is doubtful

[Oprichnik]

I had a chance to talk during the installation of imported equipment in Molodechno for 1,5 years with the son of a former fighter pilot Shah. According to his son, he spoke little about the war, but once said that he was shot down 10 times and that was all on the eastern front, on the Me-109.

[Constanty]

I am certainly not saying that all Bf-109Gs were lost due to engine failure.
Ps.
Let me remind you that Hans-Ulrich Rudel was shot down thirty-two times.

[Malyuta]

Quote: Constanty

Let me remind you that Hans-Ulrich Rudel was shot down thirty-two times.

Tenacious reptile

[Cyril G ...]

No, he's extremely lucky!

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: vvvjak

Considering that the resource of the YAK 1 engine is about 100 hours,

Resource DB-605 was like nifiga no more. And the real average failure rate (real resource in fact) of the BMW-801 grew painfully throughout 1942 from 24 hours to 28 hours.

[Constanty]

Likewise, the Merlins on Spitfires - in 1944, when they were chasing the V-1 at top speed, there were often times when the engines were replaced after one flight.

It's just that these engines have already been pushed to the limit, and the assembly in the conditions of the ongoing war completed the rest.

[EvilLion]

In the 44th it was, they wrote off more for wear than they lost in battles. Plus a high accident rate.

58% of German fighters did not report a single shot down. In general, it is mainly the best shooters who shoot down, the task of the rest is for the most part to cover the damager. The follower does just that.

[Torins]

The fact that the Germans kept 70% of all their resources on the eastern front does not apply precisely to aviation. Most of the fighter aircraft were involved in the German air defense and suffered very heavy losses there. So if we consider the fact that we have ground almost the entire ground army of the Germans, then this applies to aviation to a much lesser extent.

[EvilLion]

On the western front, until 1944, they lost aircraft mainly when repelling bomber raids, that is, fighters suffered losses and carried them periodically, since the raids were not every day. And in the east, if the weather is flying, then Russ-Ivan will surely arrive on Schwarztoots, and with them fighters and other Pe-2s, that is, almost every summer day there is some kind of entertainment.

[Snail N9]

Here, the person gave data on fighters and years. It looks quite depressing (for us) .... although not 1:10 .... Maybe if we add bombers and attack aircraft, the picture will change ... but I don’t think that much in our direction, considering how much we lost alone IL-2 ...
https://vikond65.livejournal.com/493077.html

[Cyril G ...]

Unfortunately, from the point of view of getting to the bottom of the truth, Germany's losses must be divided between us and the allies

[Malyuta]

Quote: vvvjak

+ about 50 thousand lend-lease).

I am very sorry, but where are so many imported aircraft from? I also say from memory that there were about 10% of them. Specify who in the subject.

[Cyril G ...]

This is certainly not the case.
Under the Lend-Lease we have been delivered from the USA - 14320 aircraft, from Britain 4315 aircraft
At the beginning of the war, we had about 20-25 thousand aircraft. Of these, about 5-7 thousand aircraft are not in service.
About 126 thousand aircraft were produced during the war.
(We are talking of course about all types of aircraft, not only combat)

[vvvjak]

Quote: Malyuta

I am very sorry, but where are so many imported aircraft from?

I asked you not to find fault. Yes, there is a little "sovramshi". But that's not the point. Just from memory in the USSR there was something about 153 thousand aircraft (pre-war construction, Lend-Lease, produced during the Second World War), Germany somewhere 116. As a result of the war, the USSR had 53 thousand, Germany - 0% ( according to German data) resources "gobbled up" by the eastern front (it can be assumed that the same aircraft). According to my rough estimates, losses are 70 to 10 (for all reasons), it is logical to assume that combat losses cannot differ significantly. The numbers are, of course, very arbitrary and approximate, but Timin's 7 to 10 is also not an example of mathematical accuracy.

[Constanty]

Timin simply accepted the Quartermaster criterion (Gen.Qu.) 6. Abt, the so-called critical loss - from 60 to 100% damage - that is, either an irrecoverable loss, or the damage to the aircraft is so great that it cannot be repaired.

Of course, this approach does not fully reflect the essence of the matter - very often a downed plane that forcibly landed was repaired and did not fall into such statistics, and such an aircraft did not go into these statistics that, although it was subject to repair, even if it was not actually repaired ( which means they actually lost)

Thus, the losses shown by the quartermaster are much less than they actually were.

Unfortunately, this is difficult to assess accurately. And the reports of pilots - both German, Soviet, British, Polish ... are not devoid of the “overclaim” phenomenon. Often, post-war verification led to a significant reduction in pilot victories - for example, the German ace Hans Joachim Marseille officially shot down 158 planes - he actually shot down only 46% of this number - moreover, according to some historians, it was the ace who had the most confirmed kills.

[nnm]

Thus, the losses shown by the quartermaster are much less than they actually were.

Colleague, I disagree. If we proceed from your message, then in the end, in fact, there will be no equipment left in the ranks, but according to reports, it is still full. And the tasks are then cut, at least for the reporting amount. Therefore, it seems that it is more profitable, on the contrary, to overestimate the losses, so that new equipment and spare parts would come to the unit.

[Constanty]

I do not know about Luftwaffe units, but, for example, in the case of an armored personnel carrier, it is normal to report on the state of affairs on a certain day, indicating how many tanks are in working order, how many need short and long-term repairs.
It was then known how much equipment could be used on a given day to complete tasks.
Whether it was so in the Luftwaffe - I don't know, but such data would explain a lot.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: Constanty

Timin simply accepted the Quartermaster criterion (Gen.Qu.) 6. Abt, the so-called critical loss - from 60 to 100% damage - that is, either an irrecoverable loss, or the damage to the aircraft is so great that it cannot be repaired.

The criterion is highly questionable. On Tsushima, they laid out the story of one BF-109G. The one who was shot down, sat down on the forced one almost intact. Bolo assigned to him according to the report Genquart 5-10 percent. And then there is a photo of the same messer already in the snow. He remained there.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: Constanty

And the reports of pilots - both German, Soviet, British, Polish ... are not devoid of the “overclaim” phenomenon.

At times - the so-called “lies”, depending on the theater of operations, ranged from three to ten.

[Cyril G ...]

There is a comrade Smirnov "Combat work of Soviet and German aviation" so there, if I remember correctly, it is indicated that backlash only lost about 3800 fighters in battles.

[Force multiplier]

Paradoxically, people who have been purposefully engaged in the history of aviation all their conscious lives (not only Timin, but also in the "west" the same thing), do not understand, not only what the percentages mean, but also what the data of the Quartermaster General in the whole (accordingly, and the fact that these data, by definition, are not complete)

[Constanty]

Eastern Front Aircraft Strength and Losses 1941-45
...
My source for Luftwaffe strength is the 'Luftwaffe Data Book' by Alfred Price. I calculated the data for Luftlotte 1,6 and 4. For Soviet operational strength I've used this post in Axis History Forum which lists' Velikaya Otechestvennaya Voina 1941-45. Dejstvuyushchaya Armiya 'as the source.

For Luftwaffe losses I used this post in Axis History Forum by Richard Anderson, author and former researcher of the Dupuy Institute (data probably comes from site 'The Luftwaffe 1933-45'). For Soviet figures I used 'Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century' by Krivosheev.
For both sides the losses refer only to Combat incidents. Losses due to accidents are NOT included (the reason being that I don't have that data for the Luftwaffe).

https://chris-intel-corner.blogspot.com/2012/04/eastern-front-aircraft-strength-and.html?fbclid=IwAR0qBlxWJ7xq8n4M74O9DeAZ6sIL-_QasVBQqCm753cboglcwYjYVVhxvyI

After all, it's not 10: 1

[Cyril G ...]

With military air defense, the Fritzes were doing much better than ours, alas. And for example, in the 1944 region of the year, the combat losses of attack aircraft from fighters hardly exceeded 10-15 percent. The rest are anti-aircraft gunners.

[Constanty]

Firstly, the Germans, in addition to the famous Acht coma Acht, had a very mobile air defense system. All these Mobelwagen, Ostwind, Wirbelwind SdKfz 7/2 ...
There were practically no mobile ZSUs in the Red Army, except for the American M17 MGMC.
Despite this, most of the losses of the German assault and bomber aviation were inflicted by small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery.

[Cyril G ...]

Quote: Constanty

Despite this, most of the losses of the German assault and bomber aviation were inflicted by small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery.

I have no doubt - IMHO there was an unreasonable underestimation of the needs of the troops in the AIA. Although our command had a reason here. When we actually dealt with the losses of tanks in 1942, it turned out quickly enough that the losses in the tanks were quite a trace - no more than 3-5 percent of the total losses. nevertheless, both ZSU and anti-aircraft machine-gun self-propelled installations on the chassis of T-60/70/34 tanks were developed or proposed for development. And even such exotic things as anti-aircraft companies armed with ShVAK guns went to the front.

[Constanty]

Of course, there were, but, for example, only 37 ZSU-70 units were produced at the very end of the war, which is all the more surprising, because the SU-2, SU-6, SU-8 were developed in the USSR even before the war.

[Cyril G ...]

Alas. And the reason for this, in my opinion, is the same - an overestimation of the capabilities of its own aircraft, and, accordingly, an underestimation of the military air defense.
Again, armored vehicles from aviation suffered minimal losses.

[Constanty]

This is a bit like the Il-2 - the tanks themselves may have been destroyed a little, but the entire environment, logistics, everything that determined the effectiveness of the armored unit, but it was it that suffered significant losses from aviation.

[Cyril G ...]

Undoubtedly .......

[Torins]

At the expense of stormtroopers, however, only not the entire 44th year, but the end of the 44th - May 45th

[2112vda]

Why, Timin alone invented his own method. There are other scribblers carrying complete nonsense. The Internet, in addition to being useful, allowed "historians" to get out of all the cracks with problems of education in those areas that they "zealously spill". Lads chop the loot, in this business, according to their concepts, all means are good. About the motors. If the engine has caught a wedge in the air, it is only suitable for metal. If the engine overheats due to loss of oil and coolant, the shaft line will not be aligned. The engine may have damage 5%, one bullet hole, only after that it is suitable, at best, as a donor of individual parts. All these percentages are from the evil one. Timin, an ordinary talker, a show-off and a demagogue.

[NF68]

At the very beginning of the Second World War, everything was possible. There was no continuous front line. The part of the Red Army Air Force did not have time to repair the damaged aircraft and these aircraft were either destroyed themselves, or the Germans destroyed them. Plus significantly better training of German pilots and higher flight characteristics of German combat aircraft. Over time, of course, not immediately, everything began to change. I somehow came across data on losses among German pilots, about the same number on the Eastern Front and on the Western Front. If we assume that the losses of aircraft were approximately equal, then the loss ratio was not 10: 1, but about 3: 1 for the entire Second World War.

[Constanty]

At the very beginning of the Second World War, everything was possible

Paradoxically, the WWS RKKA 10: 1 loss ratio - judging by the available data - was not in 1941, but, surprisingly, in 1945.

Overall, this is really about 3-3,5: 1.

[Cyril G ...]

IMHO a sharp increase in the density of the AES in the frontal zone due to a sharp reduction in the length of the front. And the number of Soviet losses is somehow strange.

[2112vda]

I got the impression that Timin does all this for a specific purpose. He is haunted by the "laurels" of Rezun. The main goal is to create a scandal on the Internet, to show that he is being infringed upon and persecuted for "truth" in Russia and to leave for the same England. There is a lot of material for future "revelations" in the archive. With the help of the calculation methods he invented, he can show any result he needs. If he was seriously engaged in research work, and not "pulling an owl on the globe", the numerical values ​​of losses would be shown in a certain range. He said that our losses were much higher. Why not 15 times or 20 times. His goal is to show his present or future owners that he is "on his board." In the history of Russia, such people have always met. There is no need to ostracize and persecute him, this is what he wants. It is better to "suffer" in Russia for a longer time. No need to play along with cheaters!

[obratov]

What's the dispute? Opening on the Internet: List of World War II Aces Pilots. If you have something to say about this, then we say! Figu show the EU-but you can. This is a compelling argument!
We add to our losses also the so-called. not combat losses (they are huge) ... this is when the plane falls apart during takeoff (my grandfather died like that) ... and we calm down.

[niksfromru]

Here are just the most "productive" aces for some reason ended up in the armies that lost the war. And the "personal accounts" of the aces of the countries of the anti-Hitler coalition are extremely similar. Maybe here, like in the elections, the main thing is how to count? ;)

[Torins]

Here's how to fight. For the Germans, fighter aircraft roamed from front to front, being constantly in battles, while in our country a part was assigned to a certain front and did not move anywhere. This week, the conditional Pyotr Kharitonov made 6 sorties a day and then for three weeks they did not see the Germans at all, because their aircraft moved to another direction and is already fighting there. Therefore, German pilots have much more combat missions and, accordingly, the ability to distinguish me. If we compare the ratio of sorties and downed aircraft, then Kozhedub is not inferior to Hartman.

[certero]

Quote: Petrik66

Who is a blogger? Is this a serious historian?

Alas, you yourself have now become like the one you criticize.
Timin is a very serious specialist and works on the basis of documents from both sides: from the Soviet and from the German.
Moreover, he never stated about the general ratio for the entire war. He always analyzes specific battles.
Therefore, to oppose you need to act in the same way.
Alas, so far, based on research, the picture really looks very, very not in favor of the Soviet aviation.

[certero]

Quote: vvvjak

Germany - 0. 70% (according to German data) of resources "gobbled up" by the eastern front (it can be assumed that the planes are the same

For planes, the picture is completely different. Already starting in 43, the vast majority of German aircraft fought in the west

[Cyril G ...]

Far from being absolute ...

[reset]

In fact, for all the years of the war, German aircraft (like all troops) were for the most part "occupied" by the eastern front (even in 43-44)

[Gregory Charnota]

I was always surprised by the calculations, especially the German ones! according to their statistics, if you believe to Berlin, half an aircraft and half a tank without tracks and a company of soldiers without rifles should arrive.

[reset]

Curious. In the USSR, during the war years, 214 thousand aircraft were built, and in Germany - 108 thousand.Let us assume that the Germans shot down all 214 thousand.Then Soviet pilots shot down 21 thousand.Total after the war at German airfields remained intact (or, according to Timin's method, shot down to 0 -60%) 80 thousand aircraft that could take off as soon as gasoline was poured into the tank. Which is sheer nonsense: according to the testimony, all German planes were shot down by May 1945. Timin sat in a puddle with his calculations.
But the truth is that the losses of aviation in the USSR and Germany were approximately equal (at the beginning of the war, the losses of the USSR were greater, at the end - the losses of Germany were large).
And Timin assessed, for example, the loss of pilots (Germany - 57 thousand pilots, and the USSR - 34 thousand), sorties (Germany - 1373 thousand, and the USSR - 3808 thousand)? How do these numbers fit in with Tim's colossal aircraft losses? What did the Soviet pilots fly on?

[Reserve buildbat]

It is interesting that he smoked a "Blocher" that gave birth to delirium "10 to 1". He should at least learn to read, see the documents ...

[asadullin.v1957]

Having superiority in population, industry, equipping the army with a word in everything, to lose the war with minimal losses? Tell tales about how 500 "experts" destroyed the Red Army Air Force, how the Nazi trenches were filled up with the bodies of "Ivanov", how a couple of "Tigers" left the tank graveyards. What are you guys talking about? What to say to the poor Fritz when the Fuhrer asked "Why?" Having such a potential, it will not be possible to create a quantitative superiority in any military company after the battle for Moscow. The only way out is total mobilization, total propaganda, which German archives can be spoken about in this massacre, it remains only to report how the bourgeois are valiantly fighting the Red Army Read about our losses in Pokryshkin's memoirs, and the commanders of the famous "Green Heart". moreover, the last unit was elite, it did not participate in the "dog races", nobly patrolled at heights and finished off those leaving the battle. So they were all knocked out, for example, a simple flight commander Sukov Arkasha had 16 shot down, and 5 of this list had "scores" from about 50 to 100 shot down each, which is, sorry 10: 1. Hartman was brought down, and poor Count, having about 300 knocked down, did not have time to dry his pants. All lies in the European world, they built their civilization on this, and now they want to build their future. Timin Misha you are very lucky that you Koboi have diverged in time, do not engage in nonsense, you need to live simply and clearly.

[Kostadinov]

Quote: Torins

Timin just refers to archives, and not abstract, but concrete ones.

Just from the archives it becomes clear that the total German losses of combat aircraft for all reasons is all the glimpse of the German aircraft industry during the war, plus the presence at the beginning. Germany surrendered unconditionally and lost everything. And this is over 100 thousand aircraft by the end of March 45 and about 20 thousand more in the last battles and during surrender. It is not easy to divide these losses between the fronts, but at least 40% are losses in the East. This means a loss ratio of 40 thousand German to 100 thousand Soviet aircraft, or 2,5: 1, which is already very far from 10: 1. If we add the German allies in the East, the ratio will still fall. But this is only a numerical aspect ratio. Even more important is the ratio of the cost of lost aircraft, and here already the approximate equality or some superiority of Soviet aviation. And finally, the main thing is how much aviation contributed to achieving victory in the war. Here, too, the superiority of the Soviet Air Force.
Conclusion - Soviet aviation hit more efficiently, since it inflicted great damage on the enemy with less material losses.

[certero]

Quote: resef

In fact, for all the years of the war, German aircraft (like all troops)

Statistics and German documents disagree with you.
Approximately 70% of all German aviation has been on the western front since 43

[Kostadinov]

Quote: certero

Quote: resef

In fact, for all the years of the war, German aircraft (like all troops)

Statistics and German documents disagree with you.
Approximately 70% of all German aviation has been on the western front since 43

70% of single-seat German fighters on all western fronts in 44 could beat. Night fighters and seaplanes could be hit by more than 70%. But bombers, reconnaissance aircraft, transport workers, and even more so shurmoviks, always beat from 50 to 80% in the East. In 45, again, German aviation began to move to the East, and already from the end of January 45, the distribution of German aviation on the fronts resembled 42 years (more than 50% in the East) and in April 45, 70% in the East (like 41 years).

[Timofey Charuta]

Friends, I looked here how many of our planes were beaten, for example, some Finnish aces. Karraul! Kozhedub never dreamed of so much.


https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA_%D0%BB%D1%91%D1%82%D1%87%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2-%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%92%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BD%D1%8B#%D0%A4%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%8F

Curious table by country here

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BF%D0%B8%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BA_%D0%BB%D1%91%D1%82%D1%87%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B2-%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2_%D0%92%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BD%D1%8B#%D0%AF%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F

Indeed, the countries that lost the war for some reason gave colossal personal records of their individual pilots. How much more modest are the same Americans or the British.

Unclear. If not nonsense, then what?

[Timofey Charuta]

Friends, who will give a link to the Hartman verdict? I wonder why they soldered a quarter to the super-duper-flyer, of which he actually served ten ... The Liberals write that he was simply avenged for the downed Soviet.

Wikipedia writes interestingly - As a prisoner of war accused of damaging socialist property (since there were no facts about his involvement in war crimes) and sentenced to 25 years in high security camps, I think it was. Only it is not clear - what can be broken in the camp to give you 25?

I dug something myself, in general the information is contradictory

https://imperhans.ru/erix-xartmann-chto-stalo-v-gulage-s-glavnym-ubijcej-russkix-lyotchikov/

[rubin6286]

In the early 2000s, I was vacationing in a sanatorium near Moscow and on a walk I met a war veteran, fighter pilot, Hero of the Soviet Union, who shot down 25 German planes personally and in a group. I once asked him a question about the early days of the war and losses in air battles. In his words it was like this: “On the morning of June 22, due to the surprise and the absence of any air defense, we suffered heavy losses in men and equipment when striking the airfield, but there was no confusion. We lacked radio communications, and the Germans had it and they acted more orderly in the air. Using the superiority of the Messer in speed, they acted competently, attacked only from an advantageous position, set from the direction of the sun. By the end of August we , pilots, out of 53 there were 11. The fallen experienced pilots were replaced by “yellow-tails.” They did not know much, and therefore in the initial period of the war our losses were very great. Making 5-6 sorties a day, people were exhausted and again losses, losses .... The Germans made a maximum of 1943 sorties a day until the summer of 2. There were a lot of battles, but I don't remember a case when at least half of a squadron of 12-14 vehicles was lost in a day, and the Germans left "dry." If the dialect In general, during the entire war on the Eastern Front, more of our pilots died than the Germans, and the planes, what to count, are plywood or tin. They will make a new one if they burned down, but people, while they learn to fight, will get a lot of them. "

[yehat2]

Quote: nnm

he always speaks only with reference to specific historical documents

it's not about documents, but about the counting method. He screwed up there a lot.
Skyartist describes the difference in the calculations of Soviet historians and Timin, shows how the Germans thought and shows how such a frankly strange loss ratio was drawn.
In addition, in mathematics there are methods for evaluating "from below" and "from above" and if applied to different sections of official statistics, they quickly show that 1:10 simply cannot be physically.
I also added a big amendment to the blog with the skyartist, which Timin did not notice - you can read it on YouTube.
In reality, locally, somewhere, there really were 1 in 10, not without it, but in general statistics, this is not professionalism. I would say so - even a 1 to 3 figure raises doubts, even if we take into account the large losses at the beginning of the war, in addition, German statistics begin to work simply miracles in 44-45, when our aviation fought much more efficiently than the German.
I'm not even talking about the method of offsetting the results - on it alone, the original ratio can be safely divided by 3.
As a child, I wondered how it happened that Pokryshkin had 4-5 times less score than a whole cohort of German aces. And when he read, how he was counted and how the Germans were counted, everything became clear.
Let me give you one simple example. Before evacuation, the Hanko base was defended by 2 I-16s with experienced pilots. After the battles in the sky of this base, the Germans wrote down 9 shot down donkeys. In reality, 1 was shot down and 1 was slightly damaged - he was thrown when leaving. Both pilots continued to defend the skies of Leningrad. At the same time, the donkeys shot down 3 BF-109. Do you see how statistics were accumulated?

[Kostadinov]

Friends, who will give a link to the Hartman verdict? I wonder why they soldered a quarter to the super-duper-flyer, of which he actually served ten ... The Liberals write that he was simply avenged for the downed Soviet.

Wikipedia writes interestingly - As a prisoner of war accused of damaging socialist property (since there were no facts about his involvement in war crimes) and sentenced to 25 years in high security camps, I think it was. Only it is not clear - what can be broken in the camp to give you 25?

I don’t know what he wrote in Hartman’s verdict, but he committed an obvious war crime. Surrendered and then escaped and fought again. This is a particularly insidious method of warfare in accordance with the Geneva Convention, and if you are captured again, you can be shot on the spot.

[ua1osm]

If we analyze the maximum number of aircraft shot down by the aces, we get Hartmann - 300 of ours, Pokryshkin and Kozhedub - 60 Germans. That is, five to one.
But the Germans had many times more aces than the Stalinist "falcons", so the figure 10 to 1 is quite real. It's the same with tanks and with casualties.

[Alexander Yusupov]

Well, it's like stupid stories.
/ / /
Itself somehow heard from a young pussy with sky blue eyes and a blondie to boot.
-If we would have surrendered to Hitler we would have drunk Bavarian. I did not disappoint Kolya from Urengoy in a skirt.
Just corrected her statement.
-It's a kid, EXACTLY, just not drinking, but sucking under the tail of the Bavarian Shepherd Dog (In fact, Bavarian, Bavarian and immediately with a sausage).

[asmadei]

Timit, he was not mistaken in his conclusions, he does it deliberately, but about who knocked down whom in the sky of the Second World War I can write only one thing, at the age of 17 I went to Kiev and met with 2 GSS Lavrenenkov live, and I know something from him , and I do not even listen to such grief of experts as thymine, but I only regret that in our country there is no criminal article for deliberate historical lies,

[ua1osm]

I will support historians, indeed, the losses of both manpower and equipment in the Second World War against the Germans were about 10 to 1. These are average values. In 1941 it was much worse (250 thousand killed and wounded Germans versus 5 million killed, wounded and prisoners of the Red Army).
By the end of the war, there were fewer, but still not in our favor. The reasons are not only in Stalin, but also in the ignorance, lack of education of the majority of our conscripts, young people, often under 18 years old, and the higher the level of technology, the greater this ineptitude and losses.