Military Review

Roads that interested the Wehrmacht

188

Column Pz. Kpfw. 38 (t) on an extremely good road.


There is a rather strange myth that the German army, after the invasion of the USSR, was not ready for a thaw. Even in the comments under the previous article they began to write about it. Which prompted me to make this review of German documents concerning the possibilities of Russian highways at that time.

Such myths, which are then happily reprinted and equally cordially discussed, are based, in essence, on ignorance and lack of necessary information. Scientific geography, with detailed studies of various countries and territories, the collection of all kinds of statistics, was born in Germany, and German professors then taught these disciplines to Russian students. So that in Germany, during the development of the attack plan, they did not pay attention to the roads and did not collect information about them - this simply could not be. The fact that the Department of Hostile Armies Ost of the General Staff of Germany devoted a lot of time and effort to studying the state of roads on the territory of the USSR, there is documentary evidence.

Staff Directory


In the TsAMO RF there is a document that has not been fully preserved (some of the pages and the beginning with the title page have been lost), dedicated to the description of the road network of the European part of the USSR (TsAMO RF, f. 500, op. 12451, d. 257).

Roads that interested the Wehrmacht
Beginning of the guide describing the Moscow - Minsk highway. On this page you can see a link to a message from the military attaché of the German Embassy in the USSR.

This is something like a reference book, which summarized the various data collected both during the study of maps and atlases, and during the examination of the roads by employees of the German embassy or German intelligence agents. The roads were divided into certain sections and numbered. And more or less detailed information is given for almost every such fragment. Also, data on bridges, road and rail were collected and summarized (the latter could, if necessary, be used to pass tanks).

The reference book, judging by the numbering, contains information on at least 604 highways and 165 bridges of the Soviet Union.

In the surviving part, there are mainly roads of the westernmost part of the USSR: main roads to Moscow, Leningrad and Kiev, as well as local highways and dirt roads of the Baltic States, Western Ukraine and Western Belarus.

What happened in the other part is difficult to say (although, perhaps, later this document will be found in its entirety: such important information (as a description of roads) should have existed in many copies), but most likely it was a description of roads and bridges to the full depth of the proposed offensive.

Then they “gutted” the document, taking from it the pages that described the roads of the territory on which a specific offensive was supposed, and left unnecessary pages. Apparently, this happened in August 1941.

So far, we have what we have. Even from what we have, you can get an idea of ​​how the Germans carefully and scrupulously studied our highways and what realistic ideas they had about the thaw.

The roads were bad


The main road to the USSR is, of course, motorway Moscow - Minsk... A separate description is devoted to it (TsAMO RF, f. 500, op. 12451, d. 257, l. 1-3). The best road in the USSR. 12-15 meters wide. On the Moscow - Vyazma section, it had the following web structure: asphalt, concrete (10 cm), crushed stone (5 cm), cobblestone (25-30 cm), sand. But she was not all like that. There was no asphalt-concrete pavement on the Smolensk - Minsk section. This led to the conclusion: although the road is slightly inferior in terms of capacity to the German autobahns, nevertheless, it is not suitable for heavy tank traffic. Elsewhere, it is also indicated that the road is possible for the movement of trucks, but for tanks and heavy weapons it is not suitable.


This diagram was drawn up in the fall of 1942, and the categories of roads are indicated on it. The thick solid lines are the road passing for freight transport in any season. Dotted line - passable for individual trucks and carts during most of the thaw season. Points - the ability to pass only with the help of drags or mud sleds (Schlammschlitten). The Moscow - Minsk road is marked (Minsk is located next to the U3 sign). As you can see, the Germans had at their disposal a frame made of year-round transport highways, but the roads between the chords and the entrances to the front were buried in mud. Scheme - TsAMO RF, f. 500, op. 12451, d.915, l. 2.

And at that time it was the best road in the USSR!

Other roads were noticeably worse. For instance, highway Leningrad - Moscow it was, according to German data, asphalt 100 km (obviously from Leningrad). And then it was in a very bad condition. The Leningrad-Kiev highway, which ran through Luga, Ostrov, Nevel, Vitebsk, Mogilev, Gomel and Chernigov, on the contrary, was in good condition.

Postal tract Moscow - Minsk, which passed through cities and villages, in contrast to the Moscow-Minsk highway, was almost along its entire length an improved dirt road and only in places (in cities and towns) was paved with cobblestones.

The road from Minsk to the west, through Smorgon, Vilnius, Kaunas to East Prussia, to Eydkau (until 1938 Eydkunen). The road from the East Prussian border to Kaunas and Janov was good, from Janov to Vilnius it was narrow, but in good condition. From Vilnius to Ashmyana - very good. From Oshmyany to Smorgon (both points in Western Belarus, on the border with Lithuania; until 1939 as part of Poland) there was an improved primer, about which it is directly written (TsAMO RF, f. 500, op. 12451, d. 257, l. 4 ):

"It is difficult to overcome for the troops in the fall."

Received great attention road from Moscow to Warsaw, via Bobruisk, Kobrin and Brest. Good condition according to German estimates. It lists the 11 largest bridges and their current status. Some bridges were under reconstruction and were partially dismantled, such as the bridge over the Ptich River, where one side of the bridge was dismantled and piles were driven under the new bridge.

Volokolamskoe highway or road Moscow - Volokolamsk, the total width of the embankment is 10 meters, in the center there is an asphalt roadway 6 meters wide. Wooden bridges, with a carrying capacity of 10 tons, with the exception of the bridge at Petrovskoe, which had a carrying capacity of 5 tons (TsAMO RF, f. 500, op. 12451, d. 257, l. 7).

The road Minsk - Mogilev. It was laid along the old road (slightly away from it) for 200-500 meters, bypassing settlements. From Minsk to Trostenets (about 10 km from Minsk) the road was asphalted and then paved with bricks. Not far from Mogilev, the highway was paved with small cobblestones, and the roadway was also crushed.

And so on. In general (with a few exceptions) the roads were not that good and were mostly dirt roads. Sometimes there were rubble, cobblestone paving. Asphalt was rare and could only be found on major highways. The general rule was that there were good roads only around cities (70-100 km from Moscow and Leningrad, 20-30 km from Minsk or Kiev, and several kilometers from other more or less large cities). Outside this radius, the roads deteriorated sharply and it is good if they became improved dirt roads.

Main interest - bridges


This guide was formed from various information and reports, the latest of which dates from March 1941 (concerning the Moscow-Minsk highway). In other words, road data was constantly being collected, refined and corrected.

In some places, road works were carried out, bridges were built and repaired. But at the same time, the general condition of the road network changed little: more or less passable year-round main roads and a lot of dirt roads, which became difficult to access in autumn and spring.

Slush... One should not think that the concept of thaw is not completely familiar to the Germans. Firstly, somewhere in Brandenburg or Mecklenburg, in Pomerania and East Prussia, in low-lying and sometimes swampy areas, the troops are quite able to beat the dirt road to the state of jelly - no worse than in Ukraine.

Secondly, the state of the roads in the former eastern Poland (this part turned out to be divided: the western half is the territory east of Warsaw; the eastern half is Western Belarus and Western Ukraine, which became part of the USSR) was very poor, which is reflected, for example, on the road map , which were used by Army Group Center to advance their forces to the new border of the USSR. The diagram was drawn up in February 1941. That is, at that time, the German troops already had the opportunity to knead the mud during at least three seasons of thaw, from the fall of 1939 to the fall of 1940. And they also had the spring of 1941 to get acquainted with the peculiarities of our abyss.


Road map in the area east of Warsaw. As of February 1941. Dots indicate roads in poor condition. TsAMO RF, f. 500, op. 12451, d.817, l. 2.


Here is an enlarged portion of the same map: western approaches to Brest. It is easy to see that all the roads in this region were bad. Consequently, the German troops, which from the autumn of 1940 began to accumulate in this area, received practical experience in the local thaw.

Thirdly, the Germans were clearly interested not so much in muddy roads as in the cross-country ability of roads and bridges for tanks, on which many operational and tactical details of the developed operations depended. The collected data showed that our roads were then almost everywhere of little use for the passage of tanks. Not in the sense that tanks, in principle, could not drive through them, but only in the fact that after tanks such a road becomes practically impassable. Almost the only example of a road in this entire German reference book, which was the only one that met the standards for German tanks at that time (TsAMO RF, f. 500, op. 12451, d. 257, l. 8):

The road Grodno - Sopotskin (21 km), 7-8 meters wide, covered with rubble. Note: "suitable for tanks."

Well, the bridges of that time (mostly wooden, with a carrying capacity in the range from 5 to 10 tons), presented an obstacle for German tanks, since they would not bear the weight of even the lightest of those that took part in the invasion of the USSR: Pz.Kpfw. 38 (t) and Pz. Kpfw. II (first 9,8 tons, second 9,5 tons). For heavier vehicles, in any case, it was necessary to direct the crossing, since the Pz.Kpfw IV (weighing from 18,5 to 28,5 tons) could not go everywhere. And in general, it seems that the well-known German classification of tanks by weight was born from similar military road considerations.


The bridges demanded close attention. They were, of course, driven, even when they raised doubts about their reliability. But this often led to similar incidents.


Here is another photo to illustrate the meaning of bridges. The KV-1 did not dare to enter the wooden bridge across the Oginsky Canal in Slonim, but it could not overcome the canal either. Tanks needed either a railway bridge or a suitable floating bridge.

From this, by the way, it followed that the Germans would have to fight in the dry, summer season, when tanks would be able to do without access to major highways, which they should have left for the motorized infantry and supply columns of tank divisions. And the Germans would also have to advance with tanks along the largest and best highways, using them as supply routes.

But the German infantry divisions were originally intended to tinker in the mud. They would have got almost exclusively unpaved field roads, after heavy rain, turning into liquid mud and abyss.

And then it could not be otherwise.
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  1. sergo1914
    sergo1914 20 November 2020 05: 40
    +9
    There is a rather strange myth that the German army, after the invasion of the USSR, was not ready for a thaw. Even in the comments under the previous article, they began to write about it.


    Such myths, which are then happily reprinted and just as cordially discussed, are based, in essence, on ignorance and lack of necessary information.


    It's me? That ignorant and uninformed commentator who gave the impetus to write this article?

    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 November 2020 06: 39
      21
      The author distorts the facts in his traditional way. More precisely, he is engaged in the refutation of non-existent myths and legends.
      In my time, I personally saw that a country road turns into mud if a trio of KrAZ timber trucks passes along it.
      Now let's imagine the Wehrmacht's tank division in the Pripyat bolts. So not stupid German cartographers planning a war have already laid a mistake. Barbarossa's plan ran out of schedule on the first day of the war. The Germans could not "digest" the distances of the USSR. In the second month of the war, the logistics system began to malfunction. In fact, in the fall, scraps of the army that invaded on June 22, 1941 came to Moscow. The impetuous Gantz, in his memoirs in the winter of 41, cursed Russian tanks, his barn cannons to the rear and roads. He was echoed by everyone from the sergeant major in the trenches of the eastern front to the field marshals of the general staff of the Wehrmacht. From here and "Colonel dirt".
      Cartography, learn from mistakes. After the war, the best cartographic school was in the USSR.
      Well, somewhere like that. Good day everyone.
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 20 November 2020 07: 22
        +6
        Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
        learn from mistakes.

        Well, the French did this trip. They did it faster on horseback.
        1. Revolver
          Revolver 20 November 2020 07: 53
          +9
          Quote: mat-vey
          Well, the French did this trip. They did it faster on horseback.

          On the way back, they ate the horses, because neither the people nor the horses had anything to eat.
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 20 November 2020 07: 56
            +6
            Quote: Nagan
            On the way back the horses were eaten

            Horses have always been eaten in war.
        2. saigon
          saigon 20 November 2020 08: 26
          +7
          The Germans also had a lot of horses, and oh, like more than Napoleon in his army. All the artillery of the Wehrmacht infantry divisions was horse-drawn.
          True, the German conics were not adapted to the conditions of our country and began to die without patriotism.
          1. mat-vey
            mat-vey 20 November 2020 08: 30
            +5
            Quote: saigon
            The Germans also had a lot of horses, and oh, like more than Napoleon in his army.

            Did Napoleon have tanks and motorized infantry, radio communications and aviation? And the railways, too.
            1. saigon
              saigon 20 November 2020 10: 38
              +4
              And what is the percentage of mechanized and tank divisions in the Wehrmacht at the beginning of the war?
              Well, how could the railway help the Germans in the first 2-3 months of the war? Railway transport in the USSR was a paramilitary structure, and when the enemy retreated, locomotives and carriages were hijacked or destroyed.
              The first detachments that entered into action were the barrage-engineering units of the railway troops.
              Water pumping stations and water towers, carriage and locomotive depots exploded.
              And the locomotive he is a bastard from the European railroad to ours will not be moved by any miracle (we have 60 "gauge and Europeans already, and if the car can be rearranged from one bogie to another, then this number does not work with a steam locomotive.)
              So the Germans were not able to restore the railroad transportation even in half the volume. And the horses in the German troops were about 2 million heads at the beginning of the war.
              What kind of Napoleon and Genghis Khan are they in the place they did not stand next to.
              1. mat-vey
                mat-vey 20 November 2020 10: 42
                +7
                Quote: saigon
                And what is the percentage of mechanized and tank divisions in the Wehrmacht at the beginning of the war?

                6 mechanized corps. France was defeated by two.
                1. Alf
                  Alf 20 November 2020 19: 45
                  +1
                  Quote: mat-vey
                  France defeated two.

                  For 6 weeks, in the best summer months, on beautiful roads .. Why not beat?
                  1. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 22 November 2020 08: 07
                    0
                    Quote: Alf
                    Quote: mat-vey
                    France defeated two.

                    For 6 weeks, in the best summer months, on beautiful roads .. Why not beat?

                    And who prevented from doing this with the USSR ... in the summer, and there is more equipment, and the army is even more experienced ... and like a horde without number as an enemy, just in the middle of the army reorganization and with an unprepared economy ..
                    1. Train
                      Train 22 November 2020 10: 35
                      +1
                      And the speed of advancement of the moving parts of the Wehrmacht was greater in the USSR than in France.
                      1. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 22 November 2020 10: 39
                        0
                        Quote: Zug
                        And the speed of advancement of the moving parts of the Wehrmacht was greater in the USSR than in France.

                        Well, why did the Wehrmacht end up near Moscow later than the French?
                      2. Train
                        Train 22 November 2020 10: 44
                        0
                        And compare how much to Paris and how much to Moscow. So if the Wehrmacht had a "parade" in terms of speed in France, then in the USSR it was just a "hurricane" command
                      3. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 22 November 2020 10: 49
                        +2
                        Quote: Zug
                        And compare how much to Paris and how much to Moscow.

                        Do you read the branch or remind you what is being compared with what?

                        "Well, the French did this trip. They did it faster on horseback."
                        Quote: Zug
                        if the Wehrmacht in terms of speed in France "parade" turned out

                        they generally had a parade - with the signing of the surrender.
                      4. Train
                        Train 22 November 2020 10: 53
                        0
                        Say thank you to the Balkans and Greece, if not for them, we would also most likely sign the surrender
                      5. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 22 November 2020 10: 55
                        0
                        Quote: Zug
                        Say thank you to the Balkans and Greece, if not for them, we would also most likely sign the surrender

                        Yes, you can even now. Who's stopping?
                      6. Train
                        Train 22 November 2020 11: 04
                        0
                        I did not advance at a speed of up to 100 km a day to decide something winked
                      7. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 22 November 2020 11: 14
                        +2
                        Quote: Zug
                        I did not advance at a speed of up to 100 km a day to decide something winked

                        Who was advancing?
                        From the beginning of the war to the Battle of Moscow, we multiply about 100 days by 100 km ... Is that 10 km from the border to Moscow? And how long is it to Vladivostok?
                      8. Train
                        Train 22 November 2020 12: 17
                        -2
                        And once again, teach history. There are all the answers.
                      9. mat-vey
                        mat-vey 22 November 2020 12: 23
                        +2
                        Quote: Zug
                        And once again, teach history. There are all the answers.

                        Once again, you have no answers. How many times do you need to repeat this?
        3. Train
          Train 22 November 2020 12: 17
          -2
          And teach history. There is an answer
        4. mat-vey
          mat-vey 22 November 2020 12: 18
          +1
          Quote: Zug
          And teach history. There is an answer

          You have no answer.
        5. Train
          Train 22 November 2020 12: 19
          0
          You, the brain just draws a straight line from Brest to Moscow, as well as a gyrus in it, from entrance to exit, and then a dotted line
        6. mat-vey
          mat-vey 22 November 2020 12: 21
          +1
          Quote: Zug
          Your brain just draws a straight line from Brest to Moscow.

          And what is your line to Paris?
          And another question, and what did you mean?
        7. Train
          Train 22 November 2020 12: 21
          -1
          Epicrisis is hopeless
        8. mat-vey
          mat-vey 22 November 2020 12: 26
          0
          This means that you have nothing to say in addition to calls for the study of history? Have you studied history? And where are your works? What other historians say about your vision of history?
        9. Train
          Train 22 November 2020 12: 37
          0
          As you talk about France above and savor someone's defeat, do not forget what later these guys did with your country. And quite at the level of the same France and even better. And what I wanted to say, I have already said.
        10. mat-vey
          mat-vey 22 November 2020 12: 38
          0
          Quote: Zug
          How are you talking about France above and savoring someone's defeat,

          Where?
        11. tolancop
          tolancop 25 November 2020 15: 15
          0
          "... at the level of the same France and even better ..". Yes Yes. I saw a newsreel with a column of the German army passing through an arch in Paris. I also saw a newsreel with a column of Germans passing along the Garden Ring of Moscow. The difference is in a trifle: the winners MARCHED along the Paryzh, and the prisoners were driven across Moscow ...
  2. Train
    Train 22 November 2020 12: 29
    -1
    You see, it was worth your brain, even if someone strained it from the outside, immediately a glimpse of thought appears
  3. mat-vey
    mat-vey 22 November 2020 12: 32
    +1
    Quote: Zug
    You see, it was worth your brain, even if someone strained it from the outside, immediately a glimpse of thought appears

    And here everything is somehow stable ... Some calls for the study of history. Although in history Napoleon on horseback reached Moscow faster than tank groups ... Or do you have a different story?
  • strannik1985
    strannik1985 20 November 2020 10: 57
    +3
    And what is the percentage of mechanized and tank

    Of the 129 German (there were also allies) 17 tank, 13 motorized, 1 cavalry division, except for the last one, all 10 AK (mot), plus 23 divisions, of which 2 are tank and 1 motorized in the OKH reserve. The nuance is that they are a better organization, here the comparison does not play on the heads.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 20 November 2020 15: 39
    +5
    Quote: saigon
    Railway transport in the USSR was a paramilitary structure, and when the enemy retreated, locomotives and carriages were hijacked or destroyed.
    The first detachments that entered into action were the barrage-engineering units of the railway troops.
    Water pumping stations and water towers, carriage and locomotive depots exploded.

    Unfortunately, all this began en masse only in August 1941. Prior to that, the NKPS and ZhDV left the enemy quite a lot of rolling stock and a whole infrastructure - the Germans were advancing too quickly, the Railroad had too few forces. In addition, the Railways were regularly used in the role of conventional infantry - in defense and when clearing railways.
    Why August? Because the Railway Troops completed their mobilization only by the end of July 1941:
    Basically, the mobilization was completed by the end of July 1941, and the Railway Troops subordinated to the VOSO command included: 16 railway brigade directorates, 42 separate railway recovery battalions, 15 separate railway bridge battalions, 16 separate railway mechanization battalions, 25 separate railway operational company, 1 separate rope-suspended battalion, 8 front-line railway fleets, 7 reserve railway regiments, 2 central railway fleets.

    The reason for this delay is simple: before the start of the war, the Railways helped NKPS with the reconstruction of the railway network in the reunited territories and in the Baltic states.
    On June 22, 1941, in the places of permanent deployment of the units, there were only small, mainly economic units, as well as a significant part of the barrage and recovery equipment. Almost the entire cadre of the formation units was involved in major work on the reconstruction and construction of railways near our western borders and could not return to the areas of mobilization. Some of the personnel and equipment that were with the troops in the work areas were lost due to the withdrawal of the troops. There was not enough command staff, equipment, weapons and vehicles to complete the new units.
    © Russian Railway Troops. Book. 3. On the fronts of the Great Patriotic War: 1941-1945.
  • Proxima
    Proxima 20 November 2020 11: 45
    16
    When the Germans invaded the territory of the Soviet Union, they complained about the heat and the ubiquitous dust from which there was no escape. Then they began to complain about the muddy roads and wait for the frost to harden the roads. The onset of frost suddenly turned into frost of fifty degrees (!!!) belay (read Guderian's memoirs). True, any climatologist will unequivocally point out the place of these "memoirs", namely - in the garbage! Then again everything is all over again: mud, dust, mud, frost ... request I have a question: what do we think the Wehrmacht is complete go..otami fool or you yourself! It is understandable that in war propaganda films the Germans were portrayed as uniform nerds! It is possible and necessary to defeat such people, and it’s very embarrassing to scramble to the Volga from such come..urks! And now what? After all, we are humiliating the Red Army, which faced a very smart and professional enemy! And believe me The Wehrmacht had an excellent idea of ​​our infrastructure and our climate, and based on this, planned its operations, the fact that they were not realized is the merit of the Red Army and the entire people, and not General Moroz and so on. It's just that the author presented the article as a kind of revelation. It turns out the Germans were smart and knew everything about the infrastructure of the USSR! Who would have thought! what
    1. Free wind
      Free wind 20 November 2020 13: 14
      +8
      There was no frost, almost until the new 1942 the temperature ranged from 0 to -25 degrees. there was really a lot of snow. Only on December 28, the temperature began to drop below -30 Celsius.
    2. Train
      Train 22 November 2020 10: 38
      +1
      At the request of the journalist of the ZhBD N of the Wehrmacht division, I somehow translated for November. You know, they really had a lot of difficulties because of the roads and with the supply of fuel, etc. What saved them came, drove the Russians out of the village, got hold of the gas oil and drove on. Curious original document. A little, you know, you look at the war from another plane.
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 November 2020 09: 02
    +2
    Dear Matvey!
    Cartage does not break roads.
    1. mat-vey
      mat-vey 20 November 2020 09: 07
      +5
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      Cartage does not break roads.

      A tank does not care about woods and shallow swamps.
      And the railway travels on pre-laid ones and transports much more and faster.
      And aviation, when interacting, can clear the road from obstacles.
      1. saigon
        saigon 20 November 2020 10: 42
        +2
        But with swamps, German tanks in 41 had a direct problem, it was then they put the tracks wider to the pearl, and on the first they got stuck not only in the swamps but also in the mud.
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 20 November 2020 12: 00
          +1
          Quote: saigon
          then they put the tracks wider before pearly

          "then" - this is only in 1944, when "fours" and shtugs were put on in Ostenketten.
      2. Alf
        Alf 20 November 2020 19: 47
        +1
        Quote: mat-vey
        A tank does not care about woods and shallow swamps.

        Here are just a lifespan burnt gunpowder ..
        Quote: mat-vey
        And aviation, when interacting, can clear the road from obstacles.

        Weather permitting.
        1. mat-vey
          mat-vey 22 November 2020 08: 04
          0
          Quote: Alf
          Quote: mat-vey
          A tank does not care about woods and shallow swamps.

          Here are just a lifespan burnt gunpowder ..
          Quote: mat-vey
          And aviation, when interacting, can clear the road from obstacles.

          Weather permitting.

          Well, it turns out in vain the Germans in their "blitzkrieg" planned to rely on tank groups and to interact with aviation, it was necessary like 130 years ago - on horseback. Therefore, they probably lost the war.
          1. Alf
            Alf 22 November 2020 19: 37
            0
            Quote: mat-vey
            Well, in vain the Germans in their "blitzkrieg" planned to rely on tank groups and to interact with aviation, it was necessary like 130 years ago - on horseback

            There weren't enough horses either.
            1. mat-vey
              mat-vey 23 November 2020 16: 18
              +1
              Quote: Alf
              Quote: mat-vey
              Well, in vain the Germans in their "blitzkrieg" planned to rely on tank groups and to interact with aviation, it was necessary like 130 years ago - on horseback

              There weren't enough horses either.

              Is that why they were late compared to Napoleon?
              1. Alf
                Alf 23 November 2020 19: 34
                0
                Quote: mat-vey
                Quote: Alf
                Quote: mat-vey
                Well, in vain the Germans in their "blitzkrieg" planned to rely on tank groups and to interact with aviation, it was necessary like 130 years ago - on horseback

                There weren't enough horses either.

                Is that why they were late compared to Napoleon?

                Likely. laughing
                1. mat-vey
                  mat-vey 23 November 2020 19: 38
                  0
                  Well ... otherwise the roads, frost ... it was necessary to grow oats)))
                2. Alf
                  Alf 23 November 2020 19: 53
                  0
                  Quote: mat-vey
                  Well ... otherwise the roads, frost ... it was necessary to grow oats)))

                  And horses ready to be eaten as meat.
                3. mat-vey
                  mat-vey 23 November 2020 19: 55
                  0
                  Sauerbraten (German Sauerbraten - literally "sour roast") is a roast of meat pre-marinated in wine vinegar, usually beef [], but also horse meat (traditionally on the Rhine), pork, rabbit and game. Traditional German food known in various regional flavors such as Rhine, Baden, Swabian, Saxon or Westphalian.
                4. Alf
                  Alf 23 November 2020 19: 58
                  0
                  Quote: mat-vey
                  Sauerbraten (German Sauerbraten - literally "sour roast") is a roast of meat pre-marinated in wine vinegar, usually beef [], but also horse meat (traditionally on the Rhine), pork, rabbit and game. Traditional German food known in various regional flavors such as Rhine, Baden, Swabian, Saxon or Westphalian.

                  I mean something else. A horse is walking, dragging a cannon, a soldier approached her, cut off a piece of meat for lunch, and the horse calmly walked on, growing more muscle mass on the move. Ananerbe's unattainable dream.
                5. mat-vey
                  mat-vey 23 November 2020 20: 01
                  0
                  Quote: Alf
                  Ananerbe's unattainable dream.

                  The Strugatskys had something like that ...
  • Petro_tut
    Petro_tut 20 November 2020 14: 27
    0
    Well, the French made this trip. They got it faster on horseback

    Hitler considered it above his dignity to learn from other people's (French) mistakes laughing
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 20 November 2020 07: 33
    11
    And the formation of a track is not a cutting area, if suddenly the harvesting season is not winter - a separate story.

    However, it depends very much on the granular composition of the soil.
    1. figwam
      figwam 20 November 2020 08: 30
      +8
      The evil Russians did not prepare the road for the Wehrmacht, this is inhuman.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 20 November 2020 08: 34
        +6
        But few people besides us are capable of evaluating the country roads.

        However, around megalopolises now everything is so blocked by gates and fences that you should try to get out.
  • Cartalon
    Cartalon 20 November 2020 08: 14
    +9
    Everything that is written in the memoirs must be divided by 10, and in any. The Germans could not cope with the number of Soviet divisions, and supply problems arise for any army, in any territory, if they move at a pace of 50 km a day for a distance of more than 400 km.
    1. Serg koma
      Serg koma 20 November 2020 08: 40
      +2
      Quote: Cartalon
      Everything that is written in the memoirs must be divided by 10

      And the blitzkrieg began to burst at the seams from 22.06.1941.18/1940/XNUMX. On December XNUMX, XNUMX, Hitler approved the Barbarossa plan, according to which the war was to be ended, at the latest in November 1941.
      As much as they could, they justified themselves before the Fuhrer, and after the war, for their own defeat and their own mediocrity, earning on memoirs.
      1. Cartalon
        Cartalon 20 November 2020 08: 59
        +3
        What exactly cracked at the seams at the blitzkrieg on 22.06.41? It crackled only near Smolensk when, according to the plan, it was necessary to occupy the territory, but it was necessary to repulse counter-attacks.
        1. Serg koma
          Serg koma 20 November 2020 14: 24
          +2
          Smolensk (July 6, 1941 - September 10, 1941), Kiev (July 7 - September 26, 1941), on July 10, 1941, the offensive of German troops (Army Group North) began on Leningrad. The Barbarossa Plan (Directive No. 21) provided for "November 1941 at the latest."

          I. General concept:
          ....
          The ultimate goal of the operation is to create a barrage against Asian Russia along the common Volga-Arkhangelsk line. Thus, if necessary, the last industrial region remaining with the Russians in the Urals can be paralyzed with the help of aviation.


          So not only Smolensk ... Somewhere for an hour, somewhere for a day, the advance of the Germans was slowed down. In the rear, partisan detachments were organized, yes, in the summer of 1941 they were not yet as effective as in the future, but they also provided some kind of slowdown in the movement of the rear of the Wehrmacht.
          1. Cartalon
            Cartalon 20 November 2020 14: 29
            +5
            Do you think that the Germans did not expect to meet resistance at all?
            1. Serg koma
              Serg koma 20 November 2020 15: 15
              +4
              I believe that according to their plans based on the war in Europe
              On May 10, 1940, German troops crossed the border of the Netherlands and Belgium. June 22, 1940 France surrendered to Germany
              And in 1940, the French army was quoted much higher than the Red Army.
              And the "northern war" of the USSR strengthened confidence in the "right path." Count on more stubborn resistance (slowing down) than in France or Poland (September 1, 1939 - October 6, 1939) was not included in the blitzkrieg plans on the territory of the USSR, in addition, the Wehrmacht increased the same (for example) vehicles at the expense of occupied Europe , production resources, allied (invading) troops. So, most likely by August (according to their plans) they should have already been near Moscow, on Onega and in Rostov ...
              1. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 20 November 2020 15: 47
                +1
                Quote: Serg Koma
                So, most likely by August (according to their plans) they should have already been near Moscow, on Onega and in Rostov ...

                Barbarossa ended on the Dnieper-Dvina line. And then everything had to happen somehow. But it didn't happen.
                Quote: Serg Koma
                Count on more stubborn resistance (slowing down) than in France, or Poland (September 1, 1939 - October 6, 1939) was not included in the blitzkrieg plans on the territory of the USSR,

                This is what happened.
              2. Cartalon
                Cartalon 20 November 2020 15: 49
                0
                What document-based work can you refer to?
                The first real disruption of plans is the struggle for Smolensk when it was not possible to close the boiler and the refusal to take Leningrad, then what used to be just friction of war.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 20 November 2020 16: 09
      +7
      Quote: Cartalon
      supply problems arise for any army, in any territory, if it moves at a pace of 50 km per day for a distance of more than 400 km

      I will clarify - advance with battles.
      The problem was precisely in the battles. If everything went as planned by the German staff officers, namely: the main forces of the Red Army are surrounded and defeated in a border battle, there is no organized defense in front of the German troops, only a few divisions of the internal districts thrown into battle "from the wheels" - then there are problems with supply the Germans would not have.
      Well, the Germans (on the basis of the data they had) did not count on large-scale battles outside the border area. That is why their calculations for the "Barbarossa" converged into a theoretically feasible operation. smile
      1. Cartalon
        Cartalon 20 November 2020 16: 18
        +1
        Well, what am I wrong, it's not about space, but in the divisions which the Germans did not expect to meet
        1. Serg koma
          Serg koma 20 November 2020 17: 52
          +2
          Quote: Cartalon
          in the divisions which the Germans did not expect to meet

          There were also divisions in France, but the resistance was completely different than in the USSR - this is the first. Second, the destruction of the centers of resistance located in the rear required additional forces withdrawn from the main directions.
          Quote: Cartalon
          For some work based on documents can you refer?

          Brest Fortress, 45th German Infantry Division - google
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          Barbarossa ended on the Dnieper-Dvina line.

          The ultimate goal of the operation is to create a barrage against Asian Russia along the common Volga-Arkhangelsk line.
          1. Cartalon
            Cartalon 20 November 2020 18: 17
            +1
            France is France, you don't have to drag it in here.
            What is the 45th division? Panzer Group Guderian completed its tasks.
            The AA line is a wish of no concrete plans behind the Dnieper-Dvin line, no special resistance was expected there.
            1. mat-vey
              mat-vey 22 November 2020 08: 31
              0
              Quote: Cartalon
              not much resistance was expected there.

              Well, if it was not expected according to the plan, but in reality it turned out - this does not mean that the plan did not seem to work, i.e. how would it be broken?
              1. Cartalon
                Cartalon 22 November 2020 08: 51
                0
                As if we argue about why I broke
                1. mat-vey
                  mat-vey 22 November 2020 08: 54
                  0
                  Quote: Cartalon
                  As if we argue about why I broke

                  Well, why do you think? Something I did not catch, sorry.
                  1. Cartalon
                    Cartalon 22 November 2020 08: 58
                    0
                    I kind of wrote in plain text, from Soviet divisions from the internal districts, which the Germans did not expect in such numbers.
                  2. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 22 November 2020 09: 00
                    0
                    Quote: Cartalon
                    I kind of wrote in plain text, from Soviet divisions from the internal districts, which the Germans did not expect in such numbers.

                    This is a consequence, but the reason why are they there? And in such an amount?
                  3. Cartalon
                    Cartalon 22 November 2020 09: 58
                    +1
                    Well, tell us about this very reason, the article is like never the mobilization capabilities of the USSR.
                  4. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 22 November 2020 10: 03
                    0
                    Quote: Cartalon
                    article as it never mobilization capabilities of the USSR.

                    Do you think that the whole point is only in "mobilization opportunities"
                  5. Cartalon
                    Cartalon 22 November 2020 10: 05
                    +1
                    The point is always a lot of what volumes can be written, you would have expressed your idea, or something.
                  6. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 22 November 2020 10: 09
                    0
                    Well, there are a lot of thoughts, "you can write volumes." Well, if very briefly, the country's leadership made very correct decisions in accordance with the situation at the front and in the rear (industry), relying on the Soviet-socialist country. Moreover, starting from the pre-war period.
                  7. Cartalon
                    Cartalon 22 November 2020 10: 12
                    +1
                    Directly all decisions were correct or which ones were not correct?
                  8. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 22 November 2020 10: 14
                    0
                    Quote: Cartalon
                    Directly all decisions were correct or which ones were not correct?

                    Oh oh ... What do you believe in deities? Only the gods have no mistakes (and that is debatable). Practice has shown that everything was correct in the main decisions.
                  9. Cartalon
                    Cartalon 22 November 2020 10: 21
                    +1
                    That is, there are resources, decisions, execution and suddenly the enemy has resources, decisions, execution, and from the interaction of these factors the result is obtained.
                  10. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 22 November 2020 10: 28
                    0
                    Quote: Cartalon
                    That is, there are resources, decisions, execution and suddenly the enemy has resources, decisions, execution, and from the interaction of these factors the result is obtained.

                    You can execute and interact resources in different ways ... even creating resources must also interact and execute.
                    Therefore, you need to take into account what and when (and how to create) and what performers you have, and without flying in the clouds.
                  11. Cartalon
                    Cartalon 22 November 2020 10: 44
                    +1
                    That is, it is not only a matter of correct decisions, but also some other facts influenced, for example, the enemy did not allocate enough forces for actions on the front sharply stretched beyond the Dvin-Dnieper line, underestimated the role of Leningrad ...
                  12. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 22 November 2020 10: 52
                    0
                    Quote: Cartalon
                    but some other facts also influenced, for example, the enemy

                    Why do you think that this was not used in subsequent decisions? What, how in the first week in the Kremlin the plans were drawn (although not even before the war) so they lived on them?
                    Quote: Cartalon
                    you would have expressed your idea, or something.
                  13. Cartalon
                    Cartalon 22 November 2020 11: 02
                    +1
                    The Kremlin could accept any plans, but the enemy had the initiative and the Soviet command could not intercept it by word of mouth, therefore, any correct decisions of the Soviet side without wrong actions of the enemy would not give anything, the Germans captured Leningrad, and they could have whatever decisions you make in the north, the resistance will collapse.
                  14. mat-vey
                    mat-vey 22 November 2020 11: 08
                    0
                    Quote: Cartalon
                    capture the Germans Leningrad

                    Why not captured? The roads were not allowed (right on the topic).
                    Quote: Cartalon
                    The Kremlin could accept any plans, but the enemy had the initiative and the Soviet command could not intercept it from the word or how

                    In general, we won thanks to the fact that the Germans are fools .. well, a little Lend-Lease.
                    And they threw meat, and the criminals helped by themselves.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 20 November 2020 23: 41
    +1
    Quote: Serg Koma
    The ultimate goal of the operation is to create a barrage against Asian Russia along the common Volga-Arkhangelsk line.

    Ogums
    Allgemeine Absicht:

    Die im westlichen Russland stehende Masse des russischen Heeres soll in kühnen Operationen unter weitem Vortreiben von Panzerkeilen vernichtet, der Abzug kampfkräftiger Teile in die Weite des russischen Raumes verhindert werden.

    In rascher Verfolgung ist dann eine Linie zu erreichen, aus der die russische Luftwaffe reichsdeutsches Gebiet nicht mehr angreifen kann. Das Endziel der Operation ist die Abschirmung gegen das asiatische Russland aus der allgemeinen Linie Wolga - Archangelsk... So kann erforderlichenfalls das letzte Russland verbleibende Industriegebiet am Ural durch die Luftwaffe ausgeschaltet werden.

    Im Zuge dieser Operationen wird die engische Ostseeflotte schnell ihre Stützpunkte verlieren und damit nicht mehr kampffähig sein.

    Wirksames Eingreifen der russischen Luftwaffe ist schon bei Beginn der Operation durch kraftvolle Schläge zu verhindern.


    But only this is Hitler's chatter from the 21st directive. Halder did not have any developments in this direction, the depth of the blitzkrieg, for objective reasons, was limited by the automobile supply arm - 500 km. Further, so to speak, according to the situation.
  • Alf
    Alf 20 November 2020 19: 49
    +1
    Quote: Cartalon
    and supply problems arise for any army, in any territory, if it moves at a pace of 50 km per day for a distance of more than 400 km.

    Well, if I remember correctly, it was the German staff officers themselves who laid such a pace of the offensive.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich 20 November 2020 08: 59
    +5
    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    So not stupid German cartographers planning a war have already laid a mistake.

    What is the mistake of intelligent cartographers? The characteristics, road structure, condition of the roads, given by them, fully corresponded to reality.

    Resistance to the invaders, in the end, turned out to be much higher than expected.

    Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
    Barbarossa's plan went off schedule in first day of war.

    Chief of Staff Halder wrote about the opposite:
    The border bridges across the Bug and other rivers have been captured everywhere by our troops without a fight and in complete safety. The complete surprise of our offensive for the enemy is evidenced by the fact that the units were taken by surprise in the barracks position, the planes were at the airfields, covered with tarpaulins.

    The general picture of the first day of the offensive is as follows:

    The offensive of the German forces took the enemy by surprise. The enemy's battle formations were not tactically adapted for defense. The protection of the border itself was generally weak.

    Tactical surprise led to the fact that enemy resistance in the border zone was weak and disorganized, as a result of which we were able to easily seize bridges over water obstacles and break through the border strip of fortifications everywhere to the full depth

    Our advancing divisions wherever the enemy tried to resist, threw him back and advanced with a battle on average 10-12 km! Thus, the way is open for mobile connections.


    Then yes, it stalled
  • Free wind
    Free wind 20 November 2020 13: 06
    0
    What huge distances I am ashamed to ask. From Moscow to Brest in a straight line 1000 km. And on a country road or even in a field, after the rain, you can get stuck in wet boots, without any ruts. The Germans possessed a huge number of maps of Russia that they got after WWII. And those maps, ten versts, were very accurate.
  • Catfish
    Catfish 20 November 2020 13: 38
    +1
    Good afternoon, Vlad! hi
    I read one German, Friedrich von Melentin, went through the entire war from major to major general and fought in all theaters (in staff positions). In his memoirs, he wrote that it was impossible to trust the Russian maps, because where the normal road was marked, it turned out to be just a track laid by two carts (he wrote literally).
    Someone also said that those who sent tanks on narrow tracks to Russia should have been immediately shot as "enemies of the German people."
    After all, there is one more thing - "Abwehr" gave information favorable for an attack on the USSR, SD - exactly the opposite, but they believed Canaris, which, as a result, was remembered by hanging him on a piano string.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 20 November 2020 14: 44
      +3
      Quote: Sea Cat
      Someone also said that those who sent tanks on narrow tracks to Russia should have been immediately shot as "enemies of the German people."

      I don’t know, the Germans have no special whining about "narrow caterpillars" in their memories. In the 41st, the main tank park of the Red Army crawled on 260 mm tracks (T-26, BT), while the Germans had 360-400 mm.
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 20 November 2020 15: 18
        -4
        [quote] ... the main tank fleet of the Red Army was crawling on 260 mm tracks [/ quote
        And why do they need others, if they were going to "fight with little blood and on foreign territory"? And the BTeshki were generally planning to drive on European autobahns on wheels, for this, in fact, they were created.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 20 November 2020 16: 17
          +4
          Quote: Sea Cat
          And why do they need others, if they were going to "fight with little blood and on foreign territory"?

          Who was going to? Propagandists? So they can't move their bags.
          And the country's leadership was preparing for a big war on its territory. That is why they began to break the Rzhev-Vyazemsky border on the ground already at the beginning of 1941 with the readiness of the first stage in 1942. That is why they began to prepare the second sites in the east for factories from the European part of the country in the Third Five-Year Plan.
          Quote: Sea Cat
          And the BTeshki were generally planning to drive on European autobahns on wheels, for this they, in fact, were created.

          Too thick. Now you will remember both the saving of the track resource and the impossibility of driving on wheels for the BT-7. smile
          By the way, according to the test results of the T-34, the width of its tracks was reduced to improve cross-country ability.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish 20 November 2020 17: 20
            +2
            Who was going to?

            Obviously, those who ditched the state. funds for the creation of the BT series. But with regard to propagandists, you are absolutely right. hi
            1. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 20 November 2020 18: 31
              +2
              Quote: Sea Cat
              Obviously, those who ditched the state. funds for the creation of the BT series.

              With BT, everything is simple. At the time of the decision to put into service a wheeled-tracked tank, the track resource was 400-500 km. So saving the track resource on the march in your rear by switching to wheeled drive was quite a reasonable decision. at the beginning of the 30s.
              the tracked course of the tank is the main one for carrying out the battle and the march ... The wheel drive of the tank is preferable for marches behind the lines of its troops over long distances in order to save the resource of the tracked chains ... Fighting on a wheel drive is not recommended and can be considered as a forced measure for the self-defense of tank columns on the march ...

              The age-old problem of spare parts also contributed ...
              Operation in the troops revealed many shortcomings in both the BT-2 and BT-5. Capricious and unreliable engines often failed, track tracks made of low-quality steel were destroyed. The problem of spare parts was no less acute. So, in the first half of 1933, the industry produced only 80 (!) Spare tracks.
              © Ulanov / Shein
              And then the plant to the last held on to the model mastered in the series, which was simple and profitable for him to produce. Even despite the growth of the track resource. EMNIP, Kharkov needed even a commanding shout "from above" to switch from BT to T-34.
              1. hohol95
                hohol95 21 November 2020 21: 53
                +1
                How many descendants of the VAZ-2101 stood on the assembly line?
                The Kharkovites probably "did not want" to modernize the plant for the T-34.
                Or it was all about money. They did not give money for modernization, but demanded a tank.
                1. Alexey RA
                  Alexey RA 23 November 2020 17: 26
                  +1
                  Quote: hohol95
                  How many descendants of the VAZ-2101 stood on the assembly line?
                  The Kharkovites probably "did not want" to modernize the plant for the T-34.

                  The transition from LT to ST (even if it grew out of LT) is a cardinal change in the entire production. Design documentation, technological documentation, change sheets, change sheets for change sheets, tooling, subcontractors (for which design documentation, TD are also needed ... and while they received it and started releasing it - design bureau changed everything again), subcontractors avoided concluding a contract, subcontractors do not sign the contract for half a year (the real facts are for spare parts), the parts are not received, the parts do not fit together, everything is assembled - it will not start, etc. And from above the bosses are hovering with eagles and biting the liver "where are the tanks, where is the plan? ".
                  Who would want this of their own free will? wink
                  Plus, Kharkiv was given the responsibility for organizing the production of T-34 at STZ. And STZ pecked at the plan, too, so the plant began to unsubscribe directly to the People's Commissariat: Kharkov did not send a complete set of tank drawings, some of the drawings are old and "the designer is not going to", there are no 2/3 of the tooling drawings, there is no tooling itself, etc. ...
                  Quote: hohol95
                  Or it was all about money. They did not give money for modernization, but demanded a tank.

                  There was money. There was no equipment. Most of the non-shirpotrebovsky mills for the same tank production of STZ had to be ordered in Germany (almost half of the plant's total application for machine tools).
                  On the five-step stage, they wrote that its development was delayed so much only because the design had to be adjusted to the existing equipment purchased almost for the BT-2.
            2. hohol95
              hohol95 21 November 2020 21: 50
              +1
              What was proposed before the BT family cars and during its production?
              This is what we today can "demand" from designers and production workers to expand the hull and turret of BT-shek for 4 crew members (3 people in the turret). The increase in frontal armor is not up to 22 mm, but up to 30. We can also "demand and shake the air" about the two-man turret of the first T-34! And why did the designers completely ignore the developments of their colleagues in the T-28 / T-35 turret.
              1. Catfish
                Catfish 21 November 2020 22: 30
                0
                T-26, aka "Vickers 6-ton."
                1. hohol95
                  hohol95 21 November 2020 22: 36
                  0
                  What were the domestic designers supposed to replace the MS-1 with? T-12 / T-24? It didn't work out. So I had to once again pay attention to foreign experience. And at the same time, take into account your own financial capabilities and the capabilities of your own industry.
                  1. Catfish
                    Catfish 21 November 2020 22: 38
                    0
                    Well, all this has been known for a long time, the Germans also could not immediately build the "Panther", I am already silent about British tanks.
                  2. hohol95
                    hohol95 21 November 2020 22: 44
                    0
                    Therefore, the technical parameters of Soviet machines in the process of production and operation were improved as much as possible!
                    Any technique can be drowned in a swamp. Even "Abrams" and "Armata".
                  3. Catfish
                    Catfish 21 November 2020 22: 49
                    +1
                    About the swamp is a well-known thing, I personally watched the neighboring company of the village, led by the battalion commander. laughing But if the commander there was Baron Munchausen, then he would have pulled everyone out, but again, he wouldn’t have enough of all the barons.
                  4. hohol95
                    hohol95 21 November 2020 22: 56
                    +1
                    Exactly.
                    Or when sappers are sawing trees according to the level of snow. For the passage of tanks. Forgetting that the tanks do not slide on the snowy surface. As a result, tanks landed on stumps under enemy fire.
              2. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 22 November 2020 01: 30
                0
                What's wrong with British tanks?

                Best Tank of the War (chronologically) - Centurion - English.
                Best Medium Tank - Comet - English.
                Best Light Tank - Valentine - English.

                The latter, for example, version XI, is useful to compare with the SU-76, these are vehicles with similar weight, armament, role in the troops and time of appearance.
              3. Catfish
                Catfish 22 November 2020 02: 24
                +2
                "The best tank of the war (chronologically) - Centurion - English.
                Best Medium Tank - Comet - English.
                The best light tank - Valentine - English. "(C)

                The best by whose qualifications, your own?
                So, dear "specialist", The first serial "Centurions" entered the troops in 1945, after the end of hostilities in Europe and did not take part in the hostilities of the Second World War. The tank was really good though.
                Among medium tanks, the T-34/85 and the Panzerkampfwagen V Panther Ausf shared the first place. G ("Panther").
                "Valentine" was really good, but the American light tank "General Chaffee" M24 ​​was actually better than him, as can be judged by his track record.
                So you with your remark, sorry, in full flight.
                By the way, the SU-76 is not a tank, but a self-propelled artillery unit, which, in general, is clear from its name, and it is at least unprofessional to compare it with a tank. So it's hardly "useful".
              4. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 22 November 2020 02: 53
                0
                Quote: Sea Cat
                The first serial "Centurions" entered the troops in 1945, after the end of hostilities in Europe and did not take part in the hostilities of the Second World War.

                Do you want to retell me Vika? In April 45, the first 3 arrived in Belgium. But Montgomery hacked into a race to Lubeck with Rokossovsky, he was no longer up to the Centurions. That is why I have specified about "chronologically".
                Quote: Sea Cat
                Among medium tanks, the T-34/85 and the Panzerkampfwagen V Panther Ausf shared the first place. G ("Panther").

                T-34/85 shared first place with Sherman Firefly, also English, in 44. Panther is a transition of 40-50 tons, it is incorrect to compare it with 30-35 tons machines. Yes, it surpassed any 25-35 ton tank, that's right.
                Quote: Sea Cat
                tank "General Chaffee" M24 ​​really was better than him

                These are tanks of different classes. Valentine was an analogue of the T-26 / T-60 / T-70 / SU-76, Chaffee was a rather non-floating T-40. Naturally, we are talking about a similar role for these machines, in the hardware it is strange to call them analogs.
                Quote: Sea Cat
                By the way, the SU-76 is not a tank, but a self-propelled artillery unit, which, in general, is clear from its name.

                What a discovery.
                Quote: Sea Cat
                comparing it to a tank is at least unprofessional.

                Well, perhaps for such a professional as you. And so, as I said, these are complete analogues in their tasks. Only on the British cannon, armor, turret, crew and mobility from the T-34-76, which is 11 tons heavier than it, and on the SU-76 it was 4 tons easier to abandon both the armor and the turret, leaving only the gun.

                What do you mean by the word "analog"? Do you have M10 and Marder3, for example, are they analogues or not?
              5. Catfish
                Catfish 22 November 2020 14: 37
                0
                Well, everything is clear with the Centurion: I did not participate in the war, but the tank is still the best, but "chronologically".
                ... T-34/85 shared first place with Sherman Firefly, also English,

                The Sherman-Firefly is not a purely English tank, there is only an English cannon, but the tank is, of course, stronger than the Sherman.
                ... these are complete analogues in their tasks. Only on the British cannon, armor, turret, crew and mobility from the T-34-76, which is 11 tons heavier than it, and on the SU-76 it was 4 tons easier to abandon both the armor and the turret, leaving only the gun.

                Well, in such a way you can compare a sedan with a dump truck, but what: there are wheels, there is a motor, and both of them are being taken somewhere.
                And the SU-76 and Marder III can most likely be called "analogous", both in purpose and in layout. In general, a tank and a self-propelled gun are different types of weapons, with their own specific tasks.
                At one time, we published a very decent magazine "Foreign Military Review", and from there, basically and a long time ago, all the information came.
              6. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 22 November 2020 16: 06
                +1
                Quote: Sea Cat
                Well, with the "Centurion" everything is clear: I did not participate in the war, but the tank is still the best

                Yeah. It happens all the time. And for the British, this is far from the only WWII tank that did not go into battle.
                Quote: Sea Cat
                The Sherman Firefly is not a purely English tank

                Amazing discoveries continue. The British had this tank, the Americans did not.
                Quote: Sea Cat
                a sedan can be compared to a dump truck

                Can. But it's better to see how different equipment performs the same tasks.
                Quote: Sea Cat
                The SU-76 and Marder III can most likely be called "analog"

                The German functional analogue of the Su-76 was Stug.
              7. Catfish
                Catfish 22 November 2020 16: 33
                0
                Did Shtug have an armored BO, and his functionality was supported by infantry and tanks.
              8. Cherry Nine
                Cherry Nine 22 November 2020 16: 46
                0
                Quote: Sea Cat
                and its functionality is the support of infantry and tanks.

                Infantry.
                Does the Su-76 have different functionality?
              9. Catfish
                Catfish 22 November 2020 17: 36
                0
                Did I say no?
              10. hohol95
                hohol95 22 November 2020 22: 24
                +1
                StuG went ahead of the infantry and covered it with his armor. The Su-76 went behind the infantry line and destroyed targets detected by the infantry.
              11. Alexey RA
                Alexey RA 23 November 2020 18: 04
                0
                Quote: hohol95
                StuG went ahead of the infantry and covered it with his armor. The Su-76 went behind the infantry line and destroyed targets detected by the infantry.

                So the tactics of application were dictated by the design. The SU-76 and the shtug had the same mission - direct support of the infantry.
                Only the Germans built a monster for this with a 60-mm forehead, which covered the infantry with fire and armor and in 1941 (and even in 1942) did not make its way into the forehead of the Soviet divisional anti-tank defense system.
                And ours - "columbine". According to the application of which, formidable orders had to be issued right away to prohibit covering the infantry with armor - only with fire.
        2. hohol95
          hohol95 22 November 2020 22: 22
          0
          Yeah. It happens all the time. And for the British, this is far from the only WWII tank that did not go into battle.

          Then why is he better than the rest? And the same "Comet" - better than their own British tanks or better than all the others? German, Soviet, American?
          Your statements are like boxing championships by various American associations! Before the collapse of the USSR and the Warsaw Bloc, practically only US citizens performed there. But they were loudly called World Champions ... WBA, WBC, IBF, WBO.
          The last of the four major boxing organizations, the WBO, appeared in 1988 and was long considered a minor in the United States and was quoted only in Europe, but over time gained weight and entered the four most important boxing organizations in the world.

          How did these tanks show themselves so remarkably in World War II?
          We are not talking about "Valentine". And then this tank was needed more by the Red Army than the British army.
        3. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 22 November 2020 23: 28
          +1
          Quote: hohol95
          StuG went ahead of the infantry and covered it with his armor. The Su-76 went behind the infantry line and destroyed targets detected by the infantry.

          Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that the shtug had armor, while the SU-76 did not. Although gifted in a bad sense, the commanders managed to let the SU-76 forward.
          Quote: hohol95
          Then why is he better than the rest?

          The fact that he is better than the rest. Some strange question, sorry. Of the three panther tanks - Panther, Pershing, Centurion - the Englishman was made later than others, but better than others.
          Quote: hohol95
          And the same "Comet" - better than their own British tanks or better than all the others? German, Soviet, American?

          All other tanks weigh 25-35 tons. Sherman, four, T-34.
          Quote: hohol95
          How did these tanks show themselves so remarkably in World War II?

          What's the problem? Claims for British tanks are mainly related to Africa 40-41 years. Then the cousins ​​threw in M3 and M4 and the situation at least leveled off. The problems of the Allies in France 44 in terms of tanks concerned the British much less than the Americans - they had both a penetrating gun and a massive fat-faced infantry tank, unlike the Americans, they had.
          Quote: hohol95
          We are not talking about "Valentine". And then this tank was needed more by the Red Army than the British army.

          Yes, the British had the opportunity to use the 15-ton Churchill instead of the 40-ton Valentine. It's nice to be rich.

          And the point is that a country with a "decadent" tank industry made one after another the best machines of its time and role. Matilda 2, Valentine, Churchill, Comet, Centurion. Yes, and the same Crusader for 41, where there were still not the majority of triplets, and in the USSR, for example, the BT-7 tank of this role was, not as bad as people think.
        4. hohol95
          hohol95 22 November 2020 23: 29
          0
          The fact that he is better than the rest. Some strange question, sorry. Of the three panther tanks - Panther, Pershing, Centurion - the Englishman was made later than others, but better than others.

          Has it been proven in battles? Are there examples?
          All other tanks weigh 25-35 tons. Sherman, four, T-34.

          And again, nothing confirmed unfounded statement!
          Matilda 2 - a complete lack of anti-PTO weapons. only suitable for supporting infantry. But that's what it is and an infantry tank. If there was a howitzer, there was no way to fight tanks ...
          For Valentines the same problem - no fragmentation shells - the problem of dealing with anti-tank guns and enemy infantry.
          British tanks were always in the role of catching up with German vehicles! They were ahead only of the Italian "boxes".
        5. Cherry Nine
          Cherry Nine 22 November 2020 23: 42
          0
          Quote: hohol95
          Has it been proven in battles? Are there examples?

          Will battles with the T-62 work?
        6. hohol95
          hohol95 23 November 2020 21: 25
          0
          Fighting A34 "Comet" with a T-62 tank? Fit! Quite.
      2. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 23 November 2020 00: 10
        +2
        Quote: hohol95
        Matilda 2 - a complete lack of anti-PTO weapons. only suitable for supporting infantry.

        Is an infantry tank only suitable for supporting infantry? This is problem? What was the Soviet infantry support tank in the 37th year, Vickers 6 tons, no?
        Quote: hohol95
        the complete lack of the ability to fight tanks ...

        The first tanks with relatively versatile 3 "cannons were the T-34 and M3 of 40s and 41s, respectively. In 42, the Four and Sherman received such a gun.
        Quote: hohol95
        Same problem for Valentines - no shrapnel

        Are these claims to the industry?
        Quote: hohol95
        British tanks were always in the role of catching up with German vehicles!

        How to say. The British had a circular anti-cannon armor tank 5 years earlier, a tank with a 10cm muzzle a year earlier, a panther gun almost simultaneously. And what, catching up with the Germans - is it some kind of zashkvar?
      3. hohol95
        hohol95 23 November 2020 21: 32
        0
        Is an infantry tank only suitable for supporting infantry? This is problem? What was the Soviet infantry support tank in the 37th year, Vickers 6 tons, no?

        Counter question - What was the British infantry support tank in 37? And not only British.
      4. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 24 November 2020 00: 31
        +1
        Quote: hohol95
        Of the three panther tanks - Panther, Pershing, Centurion - the Englishman was made later than others, but better than others.

        Has it been proven in battles? Are there examples?

        Quote: hohol95
        Fighting the A34 "Comet" with the T-62 tank?

        Watch the conversation more carefully, please. As far as I know, the comet has not been encountered with the T-62.
        Quote: hohol95
        What was the British infantry support tank in 37?

        If you followed the conversation, you might guess that it was in 37 that the second Matilda appeared.

        In general, when it comes to bad British tanks, I mean this particular


        A13. A really unfortunate car, which the British, in addition, did not manage to change the first time. But in 41 they changed it to a more than decent by Stewart standards / BT-7 Crusader
        , which was noticeably inferior only to the top three. But in the 41st year (5 cm KwK L / 42) there were many who were noticeably inferior to the troika.
      5. hohol95
        hohol95 25 November 2020 21: 38
        0
        Watch the conversation more carefully, please. As far as I know, the comet has not been encountered with the T-62.

        You are going to provide evidence of the combat effectiveness of the "Comet", but you are resting on the well-known "Centurion"!
        And he met not only with T-54/55 and T-62 in Israeli and South African models, but Indian "Centurions" fought with Pakistani "Pattons" (The first and last battle of Arun Hetarpal on December 16, 1971)!
        But, alas, you do not want to lead the battle of "Kometa" with an enemy tank.
      6. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 26 November 2020 03: 09
        +1
        Quote: hohol95
        You are going to provide evidence of the combat effectiveness of the "Comet", but you are resting on the well-known "Centurion"!

        Going to provide evidence on the Comet? I? It would be weird. There was practically no fighting in the Montgomery zone in 45; in Korea, it was also used sporadically. The vehicle was a short episode for the tank forces of their country, similar to the T-44, for example. So its advantages are more of a paper one, it is a tank with a 17lb cannon more mobile than a Sherman. And tanks with a 17lb gun, unlike other tanks of their own weight, remained effective against 40-50 ton vehicles, although they were inferior to them in protection. Panther, IS-2.
        Quote: hohol95
        And he met not only

        He met a lot of people. The question is what?
      7. hohol95
        hohol95 26 November 2020 21: 47
        0
        Going to provide evidence on the Comet? I? It would be weird.

        Based on these words, I am not clear about your position on "Comet" as the best tank! You just decided and do not want to justify or cannot!
        And tanks with a 17lb gun, unlike other tanks of their own weight, remained effective against 40-50 ton vehicles, although they were inferior to them in protection. Panther, IS-2.

        The tank consists of more than just a cannon ...
        If you followed the conversation, you might guess that it was in 37 that the second Matilda appeared.

        In 1937, Britain had only a wooden model of the second Matilda. The prototype was tested in 1938. As of September 1939, there were only 2 cars!
        The Valentines started leaving assembly shops in June 1940!
      8. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 26 November 2020 23: 08
        +1
        Quote: hohol95
        You just decided and do not want to justify or cannot!

        How interesting. Does the phrase "T-44 - the best tank of the war" evoke the same emotions in you or does it something different?
        Quote: hohol95
        The tank consists of more than just a cannon ...

        Tooting. What is it for?
        Quote: hohol95
        In 1937, Britain had only a wooden model of the second Matilda.

        You're right, I got a little carried away here. Units armed with Matilda appeared only in the 40th year.

        So there was a Soviet infantry tank in the 40th year, Vickers 6 tons? T-126SP? How many were there in parts? And what about the Germans, Stug? How much was that?
      9. hohol95
        hohol95 29 November 2020 13: 46
        0
        How interesting. Does the phrase "T-44 - the best tank of the war" evoke the same emotions in you or does it something different?

        Find a comment in which I personally claim that the T-44 is "the best tank of WWII".
        So what was the Soviet infantry tank in 40, Vickers 6 tons? T-126SP? How many were there in parts? And what about the Germans, Stug? How much was that?

        We decided to jump ahead 3 years. Perfectly. And what "armor" did the French infantry use to cover themselves during the attacks on German positions in 1940? What "quality" was that "armor"?
        Yes, the USSR continued to produce the T-26. And the work on the infantry support tank with anti-cannon armor progressed very difficult. This is a fact and no one disputes it.
      10. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 29 November 2020 20: 08
        +1
        Quote: hohol95
        We decided to jump ahead 3 years

        He admitted that it is wrong to count by the date of the first unit, but it is correct to count by the appearance of combat-ready units.
        Quote: hohol95
        And what "armor" did the French infantry use to cover themselves during the attacks on German positions in 1940?

        В1, Sauma С35, Gochkins.
        Quote: hohol95
        What "quality" was that "armor"?

        Excellent (and superior to German). The French lagged behind in terms of tank theory, unfortunately for them.
        Quote: hohol95
        work on an infantry support tank with anti-cannon armor progressed very difficult. This is a fact and no one disputes it.

        Well, hot something.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 23 November 2020 18: 07
    0
    Quote: hohol95
    We are not talking about "Valentine". And then this tank was needed more by the Red Army than the British army.

    It's funny, really - the tank, which was considered in the USSR almost the standard of LT, was not needed by the country that created it?
    Doesn't this suggest that the British had something even better than "best LT"? wink
  • hohol95
    hohol95 23 November 2020 21: 38
    0
    Doesn't this indicate that the British had something even better than the "best LT"?
    American light tank M3.
    Wasn't the Matilda Mk.2 the best infantry support tank? There was, but only for a very insignificant time. And did not have the resources for modernization. And this "queen of the battlefield" was sent to the rear or to the Far East.
    So Valentine has exhausted the resources of its modernization. Plus, the British tankers didn't like the two-man turret. With each new tool, it became ever tighter than the previous one.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 24 November 2020 01: 23
    +1
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Doesn't this indicate that the British had something even better than the "best LT"?

    It's nice to be rich, and even to eat with a rich uncle. It's nice to make the most massive infantry tank weighing 40 tons (KV-1s) (half of the more massive Valentines went to the USSR), and in cruisers, jump over the threshold between 20 and 35 tons on the back of the Americans.

    Seriously speaking, the British stocks are 1,5-2: 1. They clung to the 54-inch Matilda shoulder strap and half-war whined that nothing serious would fit into the gun. 0,5 - did not use the 25lb cannon (unlike, say, the Australians with the same shoulder strap)., 0,5 - could not solve the reliability problems for a long time (this is a common problem, but the tank transmission, for example, was only decent them and the Germans).
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 23 November 2020 17: 51
    0
    Quote: Sea Cat
    The best by whose qualifications, your own?

    "Valentine" was the best light tank in the opinion of BTV Marshal Fedorenko (head of the ABTU of the Red Army and the commander of the BMV of the Ground Forces):
    Of the currently available armaments of the Red Army, tank equipment should be the American medium tank Sherman M4A2 with artillery. armament in the form of a 76,2 mm cannon of high power and the Canadian light tank "Valentine" MK-9 with a 57-mm tank gun limited rollback ...
    The indicated tank models compare favorably with domestic ones in terms of ease of operation, significantly increased overhaul life, ease of maintenance and current repair, while their weapons, armor and mobility make it possible to solve the whole range of tasks put forward by armored forces...
    According to numerous reviews from tank units, these types of tanks can be considered the best for serving in peacetime, mastering military equipment ...

    That is, our armored vehicles are completely satisfied with the combat characteristics of the Vali and Sherman, but in terms of operational and maintenance, they are utterly higher than domestic tanks and do not require an MCU for use in peacetime.

    There is also the authoritative opinion of Major General of the Engineering and Tank Service, Doctor of Technical Sciences N.I. Gruzdev (1945):
    Mk III, as an infantry (or, adhering to the weight classification, light), the tank, of course, has the most dense overall layout and among this type of tanks is, undoubtedly, the most successful, although the removal of brake drums outside the hull is certainly incorrect. The experience with the Mk III tank ends the discussion about the feasibility of the use of automotive components for tank building.
    (...)
    Of all the existing light tanks, the Mk III tank is the most successful. We can say that in the conditions of 1940-1943. it was the British who created the type of infantry tank.
  • Alexey RA
    Alexey RA 23 November 2020 17: 45
    0
    Quote: hohol95
    And why did the designers completely ignore the developments of their colleagues in the T-28 / T-35 turret.

    Because the T-28 is a LKZ. The best tank plant in the country in terms of equipment and personnel at that time. And then Salzman mowed nipadezzi.
    And BT is Kharkov. The chimney is lower, the smoke is thinner. And much more. Uv. M. Svirin once wrote on the Sadden-Strike forum about the technical and personnel equipment of the KhPZ before 1939 - a pitiful, heartbreaking sight. The manual assembly of the T-35 is an example.
    1. hohol95
      hohol95 23 November 2020 21: 43
      0
      But after the war, Moscow did not spare money for the KhPZ, as well as for the Minsk Tractor Plant. To the detriment of many factories on the territory of the RSFSR.
      The manual assembly of the T-35 is an example of this.

      So they saw three-seat towers and "held them in their hands." Eh did not give them some money tovarisch Khrushchev. It was too small then according to the position! Otherwise he would not offend his fellow countrymen.
  • Free wind
    Free wind 20 November 2020 18: 00
    -1
    The BMP does not seem to have wide tracks.
    1. Alf
      Alf 20 November 2020 20: 11
      +2
      Quote: Free Wind
      The BMP does not seem to have wide tracks.

      The specific pressure of the BMP-1 is only 0,6 kg / cm.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 21 November 2020 00: 00
    +3
    Quote: Sea Cat
    And the BTeshki were generally planning to drive on European autobahns on wheels, for this they, in fact, were created.

    In fact, it is even considered impolite to repeat this nonsense of Suvorov.
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 21 November 2020 00: 24
      0
      Manual of the Armored Forces of the Red Army. Tank BT-5 (1936)
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 21 November 2020 00: 32
        0
        Have you read about the European autobahns there?
  • Alf
    Alf 20 November 2020 20: 00
    +3
    Quote: Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
    In the 41st, the main tank park of the Red Army crawled on 260 mm tracks (T-26, BT), while the Germans had 360-400 mm.

    It is not so much the width of the tracks that should be taken into account, but the specific pressure on the ground. For BT-7 it is 0,85 kg / cm, for T-3 it is 0,94.
  • Cherry Nine
    Cherry Nine 20 November 2020 15: 48
    +2
    Quote: Sea Cat
    Someone also said that those who sent tanks on narrow tracks to Russia should have been immediately shot as "enemies of the German people."

    At Rezun-Suvorov.
  • Alf
    Alf 20 November 2020 19: 54
    +2
    Quote: Sea Cat
    In his memoirs, he wrote that it was impossible to trust the Russian maps, because where the normal road was marked, it turned out to be just a track laid by two carts (he wrote literally).

    And now the same moments are encountered. The jeepieska and the map show the road, but the asphalt has already run out - the data was sent, but they did not have time to build it.
  • Alf
    Alf 20 November 2020 19: 56
    +2
    Quote: Sea Cat
    In his memoirs, he wrote that it was impossible to trust the Russian maps, because where the normal road was marked, it turned out to be just a track laid by two carts (he wrote literally).

    It was a grandiose operation to misinform the enemy, carried out by the NKVD and military intelligence in order to deceive the enemy and ... finally confuse their own. laughing
    1. Catfish
      Catfish 20 November 2020 20: 08
      +2
      Hi Vasily. hi In both cases, it seems to be true. drinks
      1. Alf
        Alf 20 November 2020 20: 11
        +2
        Quote: Sea Cat
        Hi Vasily. hi In both cases, it seems to be true. drinks

        Ave! I try.
  • Imobile
    Imobile 22 November 2020 21: 22
    0
    Under Stalin, the roads were not built at all. They were not worth it from 17 to Khrushchev. And under Khrushchev, most were built only in the republics.
  • Serg koma
    Serg koma 20 November 2020 07: 58
    +9

    What kind Germans are still stupid, did not guess, and even in a dream did not see that before and after the war the roads in the USSR were not German Autobahns laughing


    (the last two photos of Omsk, the so-called "city center")
    By the way, the Americans also had no idea about the "surprises" on the roads of Europe wassat


    So, of course (if you believe the Germanophiles), that's right, fascism won, and the best army in the world - "General frost" and "Russian road"
  • BAI
    BAI 20 November 2020 10: 43
    +7
    You might think the Germans had nothing for dirt. Another question is how much?



    In terms of the availability of equipment for mud, the Germans were better prepared for war than the Red Army.
    1. Cherry Nine
      Cherry Nine 20 November 2020 15: 50
      +2
      Quote: BAI
      In terms of the availability of equipment for mud, the Germans were better prepared for war than the Red Army.

      The Germans as a whole were radically ahead of the Red Army in terms of mobility. And they felt the loss of mobility more acutely.
    2. Free wind
      Free wind 20 November 2020 18: 04
      0
      Knowing about the dirt, the all-terrain vehicles were probably created by the Nazis?
      1. Cherry Nine
        Cherry Nine 20 November 2020 23: 49
        +2
        Quote: Free Wind
        Knowing about the dirt, the all-terrain vehicles were probably created by the Nazis?

        Yes, of course.
        Soviet army truck.

        Wehrmacht truck, 41.

        The car is very sensible (independent spring-link suspension of all driving single wheels (6x6), differential locks on all axles, in-line diesel six-cylinder engine), but it turned out to be too heavy for a relatively weak German industry. When such cars were removed, they had to switch to an essentially commercial Opel Blitz.
  • parusnik
    parusnik 20 November 2020 06: 29
    +7
    There is a rather strange myth that the German army, after the invasion of the USSR, was not ready for a thaw.
    ... In memoir literature and just literature about the war, I have not come across such a myth. It seems that the author himself creates myths, and then exposes them.
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 20 November 2020 18: 35
      +1
      Lesha, greetings. You and the author have watched various books
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 20 November 2020 07: 38
    10
    Oh, I presented a modern assessment of the roads of the beloved Kostroma, for example, or the Vladimir regions.

    Eternal song.

    By the way, Rasteryaev's "Russian Road" is beautiful.
    1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka 20 November 2020 09: 34
      +5
      Russia’s eternal trouble is fools and roads!
      1. Catfish
        Catfish 20 November 2020 13: 19
        +4
        The roads turned out to be a trouble for the Wehrmacht. smile
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 20 November 2020 19: 02
        +2
        And this is, oddly enough, our dignity.
        About your favorite character: Ivan from fairy tales has already been mentioned.
      3. hohol95
        hohol95 21 November 2020 22: 37
        +1
        A horse, but a traveler, or is it tight for you?
        If you really do not die on the way.
        Overcoming off-road is not a thing,
        But how to overcome the road?

        And the Devil and God
        On one, you see, account,
        You, Russian road -
        Seven bends per mile.

        No bump means there will be a pit
        Pothole, right, left, ditch ...
        Oh dear, tell us straight:
        "Do they ride on you to the other world?"

        And the Devil and God
        On one, you see, account,
        You, Russian road -
        Seven bends per mile.

        But both boots and bast shoes agree,
        How can we not love our miles?
        Because scolding here is wiser than crying,
        And it's easier to save than to catch.

        And the Devil and God
        On one, you see, account,
        You, Russian road -
        Seven bends per mile.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka 21 November 2020 22: 49
          0
          Gorgeous poetry Alexey! Thanks.
          1. hohol95
            hohol95 21 November 2020 22: 50
            +1
            Sometimes 2 live horsepower is "cooler" than all the forces of a "steel horse"
  • Moskovit
    Moskovit 20 November 2020 08: 23
    15
    Soviet tanks and trucks were all on air cushions, so they were not afraid of off-road conditions. Moreover, we must remember that the Soviet dirt did not touch ours, and the Germans simply did not give a passage!
    1. sergo1914
      sergo1914 20 November 2020 08: 43
      +8
      Quote: Moskovit
      Soviet tanks and trucks were all on air cushions, so they were not afraid of off-road conditions. Moreover, we must remember that the Soviet dirt did not touch ours, and the Germans simply did not give a passage!


      It was just a surprise for the Germans, but for our chauffeurs and mechanized drivers a familiar situation. I somehow drove (in the year 85) on the road from the timber industry enterprise to the regional center in the Vologda region. On the 53rd lawn. When we left the village and I saw this road ... I say - Uncle Kol, we will not pass. Let's drown. He answered me - “... ... ... the road ... ... ... ... let's pass. Learn student". And we passed. Never getting stuck. True, I then woke up for a long time in a cold sweat at night. Maybe he even yelled in his sleep.
      1. Free wind
        Free wind 20 November 2020 18: 11
        -1
        They themselves put a bridge from 66, more precisely a gearbox, tires with a herringbone tread were also produced, it was for gaz cars for the village, gaziki did not go to the army, the dimension is remembered 508-240, only they put on gaz, the car does not go badly after such tuning.
        1. Alf
          Alf 20 November 2020 20: 22
          +1
          Quote: Free Wind
          They themselves put a bridge from 66, more precisely a gearbox, tires with a herringbone tread were also produced, namely for gaziki for the village,

          Check out the dock series Wheels of the Land of Soviets, there is one episode entirely dedicated to off-road and off-road vehicles. Gorgeous TV series. Just look for the 12 serial version.
      2. ccsr
        ccsr 20 November 2020 18: 19
        0
        Quote: sergo1914
        It was just a surprise for the Germans, but for our chauffeurs and mechanized drivers a familiar situation.

        Yes, there was no surprise for the Germans, because they were moving through our territory in the First World War and most of the German officers knew perfectly well what they would have to face. Moreover, while studying with us, they also saw what roads we have. Well, those Germans who worked with us during the first five-year plans gave detailed reports on the condition of the roads in our industrial regions, not to mention those agents who purposefully collected materials on our capabilities and infrastructure.
    2. Viktor Sergeev
      Viktor Sergeev 20 November 2020 10: 20
      -4
      No need to make jokes. Firstly, in the USSR, horse-drawn transport was developed and drove off-road, and secondly, our lorries, as it turned out, are much more passable Mercedes and other super fancy German trucks (captured lorries pulled German cars out of the mud), about the difference in cross-country ability between T34 and T3,4 to tell or do you know? And most importantly, we were accustomed to this, but they were not, we are more inventive.
      1. mat-vey
        mat-vey 20 November 2020 10: 48
        +1
        Quote: Victor Sergeev
        about the difference in cross-country ability between T34 and T3,4 to tell or do you know?

        Tell us ... Elistratov actually compared - the T-4's cross-country ability is much better than the T-34. He really himself sat at the levers of both and the "Panther" and in general a lot of things ...
        and how many "horse-drawn vehicles" the Germans had ...


  • Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 20 November 2020 08: 43
    -5
    Of course, these are all myths. In fact, the German army was ready for muddy roads, so the tanks had narrow tracks, the cars had low cross-country ability (worse than the Soviet ones), how else can you prepare for bad roads.
    Yes, they were not ready for anything, the fact that they have a muddy road, we have quite an excellent road, Stalin knew what he was preparing for and understood that it was too early to build good roads.
    1. Serg koma
      Serg koma 20 November 2020 09: 10
      +2
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      They weren't ready for anything,



      The designers are clearly stupid - "the tanks had narrow tracks, the cars had low cross-country ability (worse than the Soviet ones), how else can you prepare for bad roads." , we could not drive through Germany on a miracle waffle along miracle roads laughing
    2. mat-vey
      mat-vey 20 November 2020 09: 23
      +3
      And Elistratov claims that the T-IV will pass where the T-34 and will not make a "step". And he "drove both of them, and in general a lot of things.


      Victor Sergeev (Victor Sergeev) Today, 08:43
      "the cars had low cross-country ability (worse than the Soviet ones)"
    3. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 20 November 2020 11: 19
      +7
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      the fact that they have muddy roads, we have quite a great road,

      I always wondered: why do you, hurray-patriots, so stubbornly refuse to be friends with common sense? Some of your ugly maxims bear signs of some idiocy.
      In fact, mud and mud, Sergeev, were a misfortune for any army.
      Quote: Victor Sergeev
      Stalin knew what he was preparing for and understood that it was too early to build good roads.

      explaining the absence in the USSR of a hard-surfaced road system by the genius of Comrade Stalin is, damn it, you have to think of it ...
    4. vladcub
      vladcub 20 November 2020 18: 29
      +3
      “Stalin knew what to prepare for” imagines that he praised Stalin, but in reality he spat.
      And turn on your head weakly? After all, bad roads primarily caused difficulties for the country, and Stalin was delighted: the worse the roads, the worse the enemy. So logically?
  • iouris
    iouris 20 November 2020 10: 23
    0
    "Eh the roads! ..."
  • strannik1985
    strannik1985 20 November 2020 10: 45
    +5
    Wasn't Operation Barbarossa designed for 3 months of fighting? Those. by November 1941, the main forces of the spacecraft were defeated; such intensive transportations are not required (including road transport). Unavailability is expressed not in an incorrect assessment of the state of the road network or the absence of all-terrain vehicles in the mobile units of the Wehrmacht (on the contrary, there was enough of it there), but in the underestimation of the USSR's ability to form new units, by November 1941 the chicks of "permanent mobilization" were fighting, so it was necessary to urgently transfer troops, carry a huge amount of ammunition, etc. One might think "General Dirt" acted only against German drivers.
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 20 November 2020 12: 11
      +5
      Quote: strannik1985
      One might think "General Dirt" acted only against German drivers.

      yes no, of course. Just as the main argument, they constantly cite the complaints of Swift Heinz about the fatal role of dirt and frost in the autumn-winter fiasco of 1941. Our memoirists (say, the same Konev) to the inconvenience associated with off-road and muddy roads on the offensive play a somewhat more modest role. Because in the case of the Wehrmacht, this is one of the declared reasons for the chain of failures, and in the case of the Red Army, "but we, despite ..." soldier
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 20 November 2020 16: 21
      +1
      Quote: strannik1985
      Wasn't Operation Barbarossa designed for 3 months of fighting? Those. by November 1941, the main forces of the spacecraft were defeated; such intensive transportations are not required (including road transport).

      EMNIP, in "Barbarossa" there was one more assumption - except for the border area, there will be no big battles. Even in a nightmare, the headquarters staff could not dream of fierce battles of the scale of an army group somewhere near Smolensk or Rostov-on-Don. smile
      1. strannik1985
        strannik1985 20 November 2020 16: 47
        +1
        EMNIP in "Barbarossa" was one more assumption - except for the border area there will be no big battles.

        And what is characteristic - they really defeated the pre-war, personnel spacecraft during a cascade of offensive operations, until December 31, 1941, the USSR formed and reorganized 821 equivalent divisions, of which only 483 rifle formations.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 20 November 2020 18: 36
          0
          Quote: strannik1985
          And what is characteristic - they really defeated the pre-war personnel spacecraft during a cascade of offensive operations

          The fact of the matter is that cascade... According to the plan, the pre-war cadre of the Red Army was supposed to lie almost completely in the Border Battle in the first couple of months of the war. Instead, she resisted in an organized manner until Moscow.
          Quote: strannik1985
          Until December 31, 1941, the USSR formed and reorganized 821 equivalent divisions, of which only 483 infantry formations

          EMNIP, absolutely not provided for by the pre-war mobplan. There was no formation of new formations in it at all - only the replenishment and reorganization of the pre-war ones.
  • Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 20 November 2020 11: 25
    +3
    Congratulations on the next meeting of the Sabbat on Lysaya Gora club. There is a reason. smile
    1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
      Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 20 November 2020 12: 13
      +6
      Quote: Daniil Konovalenko
      Congratulations on the next meeting of the Sabbat on Lysaya Gora club. There is a reason. smile

      join us!
      1. Daniil Konovalenko
        Daniil Konovalenko 20 November 2020 12: 16
        +4
        The topic is so far-fetched ...
      2. Free wind
        Free wind 20 November 2020 18: 23
        0
        Oh, what disgusting. , this is how it was necessary to rush so that they could get away, to see they were pressed not in a childish way. the suspension on the motorcycle is incomprehensible, there are no shock absorbers. Although it may just be thrown out and brewed. tightly., the spokes on the wheel are all intact.
        1. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
          Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 20 November 2020 19: 46
          0
          Well this is a legend! R75!
          1. Free wind
            Free wind 22 November 2020 06: 02
            -1
            I love technology, but I didn't know about this motorcycle. Looked really cool thing.
        2. not main
          not main 20 November 2020 23: 57
          0
          Quote: Free Wind
          Oh, what disgusting. , this is how it was necessary to rush so that they could get away, to see they were pressed not in a childish way. the suspension on the motorcycle is incomprehensible, there are no shock absorbers. Although it may just be thrown out and brewed. tightly., the spokes on the wheel are all intact.

          I am more surprised by the cylinders and exhaust pipes! At this temperature, the clay cakes and falls off!
  • Undecim
    Undecim 20 November 2020 12: 50
    13
    One gets the impression that Samsonov's laurels haunt some authors and they are trying to repeat his experiments in introducing obscurantism to the masses. In addition, the author of the article, reproaching the audience for ignorance, immediately demonstrates it himself.
    Scientific geography, with detailed studies of various countries and territories, the collection of all kinds of statistics, was born in Germany
    And what, there is geography and unscientific?
    The author, the branch of geography described by you is called regional geography, which intersects with such a geographical discipline as regional geography.
    And then there is military geography, which studies the military aspects of geography, the possibility of their application in military affairs. It is part of military science. Military and consists of military regional studies and the study of theaters of war, and among the founders of modern military geography there is indeed a German - Ludwig Müller.
    Strategic military geography studies the strategic aspects of the geographic environment and the strategic properties of the entities that operate in this environment, and then develops recommendations for military strategic leadership.
    This is where the question arises - were the German military geographers able to correctly assess the geographic environment of the USSR, including the scale (not the presence, but precisely the scale) of such a factor as the thaw and develop the correct recommendations for the military strategic leadership of Germany?
    History shows that they failed and this is not a myth.
    I recommend the author to read the book of the Russian and Soviet military geographer Andrei Evgenievich Snesarev "Introduction to military geography" so as not to write nonsense.
    1. vladcub
      vladcub 20 November 2020 18: 15
      +2
      "Samsonov's laurels haunt some authors and they" sink to the level of the plinth, and some even lower
  • vladcub
    vladcub 20 November 2020 18: 07
    +2
    "the Germans were obviously interested not so much in the muddy road as in the cross-country ability of roads and bridges" subtle observation. Naturally, they were primarily interested in the cross-country ability.
  • zenion
    zenion 30 November 2020 19: 44
    0
    Дороги интересовали не только Вермахт, но и Красную Армию, буквально в самом начале войны по всей Европе. Видимо уже тогда Генеральный штаб готовил пути наступления, когда будут гнать фашиков. Очень пригодилось, хотя это было секретом, секретом осталось.