In Ukraine, there was a stir because of the Brest-Litovsk peace treaty "discovered" in the Turkish archives

News reports from Turkey caused a big informational frenzy in Ukraine. We are talking about messages that say that in the Turkish archives "the originals of the texts of the Brest-Litovsk peace were found."

This is not a treaty that was signed by Soviet Russia, but a treaty that was signed in February 1918 by the so-called Central Powers and representatives of the Ukrainian People's Republic (UPR).

MFA of Ukraine:

For the first time on the Internet - the original of the ratification document signed by Hetman Skoropadsky and the originals of the texts of the Brest-Litovsk peace treaty, including with the Ottoman Empire. All documents are striking in quality, exquisite style of execution, artistic approach to calligraphy and a clear wax seal of the large state seal.

The same imprint of the seal, which the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine calls "state":

Another photo of the document:

The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry said that they had requested digital copies of the document from the Turkish side and "received them immediately." It is added that in total, the Turkish archive contains "thousands of pages of Ukrainian studies".

Information excitement in Ukraine about the "find" in the Turkish archive is connected with the fact that in Kiev they emphasize the "statehood of the act".

From the statement:

The central powers then recognized the UPR as an independent state.

In other words, for modern Ukraine, the interpretations of those who eventually suffered defeat in the First World War are extremely important. For information: Central Powers - Germany, Austria-Hungary, Ottoman Empire, Bulgarian Kingdom. It would be strange if these powers, who fought in WWI against Russia, supported its territorial integrity.

Comments

[Mouse]

Big information boom in Ukraine

For anything you boil over, except hunger strike ...

[Thrifty]

Well, now the Turks will have a new global competitor, the "Eurasian Vukroin empire" with territorial claims to all countries of Eurasia

[Machito]

Laughing out loud
Oh, why such a valuable document was not found in Shusha in Karabakh? That's what it means to elect a clown president. However, Ukraine's stern wagging towards Turkey strongly resembles the multi-vector policy of the Zaporozhye Sichi. Ukrainians and Turks are brothers forever. The skakuasses were not forgotten, like slaves rowed on Turkish galleys, chained to the oars

[major147]

Quote: Bearded

The skakuasses were not forgotten, like slaves rowed on Turkish galleys, chained to oars

Yes, they don't care "whose galleys to row." At least in Turkish, at least in Polish, if only the owners indicated where. After all, there is no mind to lay the path. And it is not at all important for them where the "instructions" of their masters will lead!

[Fantazer911]

Interestingly, this document marks the borders of the UPR, of that time, and in what areas, if something, let Russia turn its territory back, and remain within the boundaries of the 18th century of the last century!

[Sergey Oreshin]

In fact, not everything is so simple with these boundaries. In 1918, the Central Powers included the entire territory of Donbass, Belgorod region, south-west of Kursk, western and south-western regions of Voronezh province, western regions of Bryansk region into the Ukrainian State (these territories were occupied by German troops during their offensive in the spring of 1918) .).
In addition, a part of modern South Belarus (Polesie, Gomel region) was transferred to Ukraine. The Germans, in addition, secretly from the Austrians, promised after WWII to transfer to Skoropadsky Kholmshchyna
At the same time, Galicia, Bukovina, Transcarpathia remained part of Austria-Hungary, and the southern districts of Bessarabia were occupied by Romania.
Crimea was directly included in the German Empire, and the Germans resolutely rejected Ukraine's claims to it

[Fantazer911]

OK, thanks,

[Alexga]

Kindergarten, you might think that there are no other problems.

[svp67]

Quote: AlexGa

Kindergarten, you might think that there are no other problems.

There are a lot of problems, but somehow the people need to be distracted from them ...

[Normal ok]

Quote: AlexGa

Kindergarten, you might think that there are no other problems.

It's funny that I learn about this "problem" (and earlier about similar ones) not from the Ukrainian media, but from the authors of VO (often anonymous). It seems that the authors of VO search hundreds of tertiary Internet resources to find some "fried" fact and pass it off as the agenda of the neighbors.

[alexmach]

You could learn about this problem from first-class Russian literature, or from theatrical performances. If you read the classics of the 20th century.

[cniza]

News reports from Turkey caused a big informational frenzy in Ukraine. We are talking about messages that say that in the Turkish archives "the originals of the texts of the Brest-Litovsk peace were found."

But they don't want to attach the card

[Mouse]

Too shy to ask ... to what place?

[cniza]

I cannot advise this, they will cope here on their own ...

[Mouse]

Yes, there is someone to advise ...
I do not order, but I strongly advise ...

[cniza]

Well, if only this one with a pie on his head:

[Boris ⁣ Shaver]

Quote: cniza

with a pie on my head

Looks like ram horns

[Clear]

Quote: cniza

Well, if only this one with a pie on his head:

And, this guy, someone else stole the seal. Lies on the right.

[cniza]

Uh, there is a big chest of what he appropriated, but the burden was not strong ...

[Normal ok]

Quote: Clear

Quote: cniza

Well, if only this one with a pie on his head:

And, this guy, someone else stole the seal. Lies on the right.

This "fellow", lieutenant general of the Russian army, a participant in the Russo-Japanese and the First World Wars (6 orders, including George). And your top-down attitude is clearly not appropriate here.
PS. From the current bell tower it is easy to judge the people of the past. I should have seen how some of the local commentators would behave in their place.

[Boris ⁣ Shaver]

Quote: Normal ok

This "small", lieutenant general of the Russian army, a participant in the Russo-Japanese and the First World Wars (6 orders, including George)

I will often repeat this anegdote.

An old Scotsman sits in a pub, sits, sips a beer, smokes a pipe.
He sat, sat and said: - This mill, I built myself, ONE (!) ...
collected stones, mixed mortar and built ... but for some reason no one
calls me McFlaren the Mill Builder.
He sat, took a sip of beer, took a drag.
- This garden, which now has the largest harvests of fruits and berries,
I planted it myself, ONE (!) ... everyone rejoices and gathers fruits. But somehow
no one calls me McFlaren the gardener.
He sat, took a sip of beer, took a drag.
- This bridge, I built myself, ONE (!), Cut down trees, sanded and
made a bridge, now there are cars and people walking on it. But somehow nobody
does not call me McFlaren the bridge builder.
He sat, took a sip of beer, took a drag.
- But it was worth it once ... this unfortunate sheep ...

[Doliva63]

Quote: cniza

I cannot advise this, they will cope here on their own ...

However, they could not

[cniza]

They still have time while they have ...

[Doliva63]

Quote: cniza

They still have time while they have ...

It seems to me that while they are "ruled" because of the "puddles", time has stopped for them. But this is IMHO, of course

[cniza]

There are such suspicions, only after that there will be a flight to the abyss.

[Doliva63]

Quote: cniza

There are such suspicions, only after that there will be a flight to the abyss.

All this is sad. It would be better home, returned to the family.

[cniza]

Sooner or later this will happen and everyone will be jailed Bandera. but how many troubles they still have time to do.

[Doliva63]

Quote: cniza

Sooner or later this will happen and everyone will be jailed Bandera. but how many troubles they still have time to do.

So I say - all this is sad. I hope both Belarus and Kazakhstan will not be surrendered so easily.

[cniza]

I do not just hope, I believe in it, now everything will go crazy and everything will become normal ...

[Cutter]

Cope! Just what place? Victor, they only have one job ...

[cniza]

Greetings Something was not visible for a long time.

Well, they also love to devour, especially for free ...

[Cutter]

Either in the "bathhouse", now in prostration ... In short, alive. And about Ukraine - oh! Friendly NO! I DO NOT WANT ZMAGARS to spend the night in MY LOVELY AND QUIET BELARUS (REPUBLIC OF BELARUS). They are, but believe me, when you go around the city, 10-15-20 people are standing along the main avenues. A bus drove up with a riot policeman ... Raging d / b that block the main thoroughfares of the city, and earlier (August) insane mothers rolled out strollers with babies. On Friday, I swore to myself - I WILL PRESS THE GASKETS, DETAINED, THE MOTHER WAS BAD ... NOW I WILL PRESS "TO THE LIGHT" - I WILL PRESS ... Approximately 85-90% of the population has the same mood.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Cutter

.Some d / b, which block the main thoroughfares of the city, and earlier (August) insane mothers

I believe, I understand, I sympathize, but ...

Quote: Cutter

PRESS WILL

You can't. Do not. They are sick. Patients are not allowed. They need to be treated. Occupational therapy.

[Cutter]

Siberian , understand, the insane are enraging, WHAT DO THEY NEED? Ai, excuse me, fellow countryman, he himself lived in Transbaikalia for 11 years, a rich land, I understand everyone and everything, but now - "... no words, only drooling."

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Cutter

Siberian hi, understand

You can't even imagine how I understand you.

[Jager]

Occupational therapy on the construction of a bridge across the Lena to Yakutsk or Sakhalin.

[Krasnoyarsk]

Quote: Jager

Occupational therapy on the construction of a bridge across the Lena to Yakutsk or Sakhalin.

Not a bad option.

[cniza]

Quote: Cutter

On Friday, I swore to myself - I WILL PRESS THE GASKETS, DETAINED, THE MOTHER WAS BAD ... NOW I WILL PRESS TO THE LIGHT BULBS ... 85-90% of the population has the same mood.

Guys, don't flinch ...

[Cutter]

No, brothers, we cannot ... At your borders ... it will gather if we surrender ... We cannot !!! And no one is going !!!

[cniza]

Thank God! Greetings!
The main thing is to calm down the rabid ...

[Russ]

Quote: Mouse

Too shy to ask ... to what place?

Wherever you put it ... everywhere is a complete ass ...

[tovarich-andrey.62goncharov]

"I hesitate to ask ... to what place?"
On the coffin of their wet, wet dreams ...

[Alexga]

But they don't want to attach the card

From such a map, mass suicide can begin in Ukraine, they like to draw maps where they also own the Kuban.

[cniza]

So they did not manage to draw then, the statehood ended.

[Alexga]

There is a rather curious film "Cathedral on the Blood", it is on YouTube. Manufactured in 2006. There is a brief history of Ukraine, only footage of the chronicle. It is better not to listen to the commentary, it is mixed with a modern vision of history. The first series is generally a masterpiece, there is a performance of the first so-called. President. and so there he speaks the classic Ukrainian language, not like the current one.! Better to watch in your free time, so for curiosity.

[cniza]

Thank you, but I will not waste time, all their attempts are repeated today ...

[tihonmarine]

Quote: cniza

But they don't want to attach the card

Here is according to the act, cards and confessions The central powers then recognized the UPR as an independent state. leave everything according to this document, all the territories recognized by Ukraine, not recognized back to Russia (by the way, there is nothing about Crimea). Well, Western Ukraine can be put up for sale.

[cniza]

It was then like this:

[Sergey Oreshin]

In fact, the boundaries of the DKSR were smaller than indicated on this map. Because Northern Tavria was part of the Soviet Socialist Republic of Taurida, and the Yekaterinoslav province de facto was not controlled at all at the beginning of 1918, there was a mixed hodgepodge of Bolsheviks, Left Socialist-Revolutionaries, Socialist-Revolutionaries-maximalists, anarchists and other batek-atamans

[Niel-le-Calais]

Quote: tihonmarine

leave everything according to this document, all the territories recognized by Ukraine, not recognized back to Russia (by the way, there is nothing about Crimea). Well, Western Ukraine can be put up for sale.

Ukraine and Russia mutually recognized their land borders at the presidential level back in 2003, and in 2004 this agreement was ratified by parliaments. The only part of the border between Ukraine and Russia that has not been delimited so far is the Kerch Strait, that is, the sea border.
By the way, Crimea is also recognized by the Russian Federation as part of Ukraine. The latest events in 2014 were one-sided and were not fixed anywhere except for the Russian Federation. Quite the opposite. Are an international violation under the resolution.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Niel-le-Calais

Ukraine and Russia mutually recognized their land borders at the presidential level back in 2003, and in 2004

Presidents come and go, but history remains. The Russian land was and will be, and the UPR appeared in 1918. If the 2003 treaty were legitimate, then you would not recognize Brest - Litovsk. And once recognized, then return everything stolen back, as of 1918.

[Niel-le-Calais]

Quote: tihonmarine

Presidents come and go, but history remains

absolutely right.
The 2004 treaty, ratified by both parliaments, is still in force.

Quote: tihonmarine

Russian land as it was and will be, and the UPR appeared in 1918

So in Ukraine they do not refuse that everything "Rusko" is Ukrainian.
So all the "Ruska zemli" are Ukrainian.
The main thing is that not Russian (in Ukrainian it's funny that everything is Russian-tse Russian, but Rus-tse Ruska, its own is shorter)
so that the common history graters have long come to the brink of carve-up. Some say that there were no others, while others that the first were not.

Quote: tihonmarine

If the 2003 treaty were legitimate, you would not recognize Brest - Litovskiy

It seems that he wrote in Russian that this treaty was destroyed by the Entente and the Council of People's Commissars back in November 1918.
Maybe in English you need. I can. But again in Russian.
Legitimate and ratified is
"On the ratification of the Treaty between the Russian Federation and Ukraine on the Russian-Ukrainian state border" 2003
And in 2004 its ratification

The treaty between the Russian Federation and Ukraine on the Russian-Ukrainian state border, signed in Kiev on January 28, 2003, is the basic document defining the line of the state border between the two states on its land section, including rivers and lakes, as well as a principled approach to resolving issues connected with the Black and Azov Seas and the Kerch Strait.
The line of the state border is marked on geographic maps as a result of joint work on border delimitation carried out by the Russian and Ukrainian delimitation commissions. The delimitation commissions were attended by representatives of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Federal Security Service of Russia, Roskartografiya, Roszemkadastra (Goszemkadastrsyamki), deputy heads of administrations of the Belgorod, Bryansk, Voronezh, Kursk and Rostov regions. The existing administrative border between the RSFSR and the Ukrainian SSR at the time of the collapse of the USSR was taken as a basis, taking into account its registration by the relevant state legal acts. The description of the state border crossing and the Album of maps of the state border between the Russian Federation and Ukraine, attached to the Agreement as an integral part of it, have been drawn up and agreed upon.

And who recognizes BPD as fundamental to the present day?
Have you read the article carefully *? There is about the recognition of the UPR by the Central Powers.
I corrected that before the Central UPR was recognized by the Bolsheviks. What they also reported to the Central Powers!
Modern Ukraine, based on the Ukrainian SSR, as recognized by the Russian Federation (and all the others), which is based on the RSFSR.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Niel-le-Calais

So in Ukraine do not refuse that everything "Rusko" is Ukrainian.

This is the difference you have with Russianness and Ukrainianness. I don’t know who you are now, but I believe here only Taras Shevchenko, the great Little Russian:

Yak die, then cheer
Mene at the grave
Middle step wide
On Ukrainian Miles,

[Niel-le-Calais]

Quote: tihonmarine

but here I believe only Taras Shevchenko, the great Little Russian:

yes, I like Pushkin more.
And I know that Russian is a rather flexible language, easily adapting to the requirements of the time.

Quote: tihonmarine

Here is the difference between you and Russianness and Ukrainianness.

somehow provided the texts of the official Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation on this topic.
So they also write "to Ukraine."
I personally do not care how others write. This is not in dispute. And conformity to modernity.
I even started Ukrainian from the 4th grade ... and a year later I was already studying English. Along with Ukrainian.
And wait, guiding her daughter, and she also learns Russian first. And only then Ukrainian and English.
True, she has a Russian Ukrainian family.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Niel-le-Calais

True, she has a Russian Ukrainian family.

The main thing is not to forget your beginnings, both Russian and Little Russian.

[tovarich-andrey.62goncharov]

“Do not hope that once you take advantage of Russia's weakness, you will receive dividends forever. Russians always come for their money. And when they come, don’t rely on the Jesuit agreements you signed, supposedly to justify you. They are not worth the paper on which they are written. Therefore, it is worth either playing fair with the Russians, or not playing at all. " - Remember these words if you have not learned all the lessons so far. Then it will be late "guard" to shout.

The original publication source: https://politikus.ru/articles/politics/17333-zheleznyy-kancler-dogovor-s-rossiey-ne-stoit-toy-bumagi-na-kotoroy-napisan-tak-li-eto-chitaem-polnuyu -versiyu-vyskazyvaniya.html
Politikus.ru

[Cutter]

Handsomely! They always come, even though they are kind ...

[Niel-le-Calais]

Quote: tovarich-andrey.62goncharov

Remember these words if you have not learned all the lessons so far

History suggests that this phrase, in one form or another, is already 5 centuries old.
In particular, Austrian Foreign Minister Johann Bernard Graf von Rechberg used it in 1861 in relation to the guarantees of sovereignty of Italy, which had barely hatched from the Austrian colony. It was not Russia that provided these guarantees.
Blatter ---: "Our constitution is not worth the paper it is written on!" It happened in 1871
In 1885, a certain Friedrich Engels appears in the arena and reports that "the Russian budget is not worth the paper it is written on."
Well, in 1951 Harry Truman said that "agreements with the Bolsheviks are not worth paper."

The trouble with all the quotes on the Internet is that people readily believe in their authenticity.
VI Lenin

The trouble with the Russians is that they believe in the authenticity of Bismarck's quotes on the Internet!
And some have skipped history lessons. Bismarck is not a Russophile. He is always for the interests of Prussia.
And it was he who nurtured an alliance against RI. And it is he who is largely responsible for the policies of the German Congress; he is German to the bone.
Runet tends to ascribe a lot of Russophile to Bismarck.

[New Year day]

Quote: tovarich-andrey.62goncharov

Do not hope that

Bismarck did not say that. Proven fake

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Niel-le-Calais

Ukraine and Russia mutually recognized their land borders

And why exactly these borders should be left, and not those that were when the UPR was recognized, or its older borders, they were the same at one time recognized as correct.

Now, in fact, there are already other borders, and the fact that they are not recognized by a part of states does not change the essence. And what is interesting: with the collapse of the country, the lands that had been with it from time immemorial left the Russian Federation, and for some reason we must recognize this as correct, but not recognize when part of these lands returned to their historical homeland. Where is the logic ?

[Niel-le-Calais]

Quote: Bad_gr

And why exactly these borders should be left, and not those that were when the UPR was recognized,

according to an intergovernmental agreement adopted by both countries and ratified by their parliaments.
I gave the text of the ratification.

Quote: Niel-le-Calais

The existing administrative border between the RSFSR and the Ukrainian SSR at the time of the collapse of the USSR was taken as a basis, taking into account its registration by the relevant state legal acts

but what about

Quote: Bad_gr

during the collapse of the country, the lands that had been with it from time immemorial left the Russian Federation, and we, for some reason, should recognize this as correct, but not recognize when part of these lands returned to their historical homeland. Where is the logic ?

I missed, of course, the collapse of the Russian Federation .. And its lands.
But here is the collapse of the USSR due to the fault of Moscow with the vesting of all rights to the lands of the Ukrainian SSR to the state of Ukraine with the confirmation of the same Moscow, I did not miss.
There is no concept of a historical homeland.
With fire and sword. Strength and alliances. Deaths and large battalions ..
Gunpowder and iron.
This is how all the lands joined.
With regard to claims against Ukraine. Truly always interested in the fact that ALL Russians have territorial claims to Ukraine. And when words are heard from Ukraine about this threat (which has already proven in practice that it is real and already feasible), then some kind of fraternity, peaceful coexistence, and the enemies of the Ukrainians, Bandera, are not killed.
Before reading Runet since the advent of the Internet, I have always seen claims exclusively to Ukraine.
Now she appropriated the land, then it must be taken away, it must be returned ..
There are no such claims to any country. And to Ukraine there is. There were now.
It is a pity that Ukraine was chukhaya for a long time, because since the time of Tuzla it has become clear that war cannot be avoided.
And in a moment of turmoil, threats are implemented.

[Bad_gr]

Quote: Niel-le-Calais

There is no concept of a historical homeland.

That is, what kind of territory was able to conquer and defend - it is yours. So what then are the questions about the ownership of Crimea?

[Stas157]

Quote: Niel-le-Calais

There is no concept of a historical homeland.
With fire and sword. Strength and alliances. Deaths and large battalions ..
Gunpowder and iron.
This is how all the lands joined.

The fact of the matter is that Ukraine did not conquer its lands in battle, but received them through a misunderstanding. Russia (USSR) donated them not at all with the expectation that Ukraine would separate. This was done when Ukraine was an integral part of Russia (USSR) and was not an independent state.

And the current state of Ukraine can hardly be called an independent state, although formally it is. But in fact, this is some kind of Gulyai-Pole, which flies into the abyss and is controlled by external players. Nothing creative, everything is falling, becoming impoverished, the population is disappearing ... Only one show-off and claims to others.

[businessv]

Quote: Niel-le-Calais

The latest events in 2014 were one-sided and were not fixed anywhere except for the Russian Federation. Quite the opposite. Are an international violation under the resolution.

It remains to consider the legality of the transfer of Crimea to the Square.

[Niel-le-Calais]

Quote: businessv

It remains to consider the legality of the transfer of Crimea to the Square.

post factum unilaterally is possible.
But why?
The transfer of Crimea was a matter for the USSR.
The Russian Federation cannot unilaterally revise because it itself recognized the borders until 1991.
You must first cancel a bunch of acts and ratifications. That then it will be pointless to waste time on the transfer.
And again, why?
Lives like North Cyprus. Slightly worse than Turkey but lives. So it will be with the Crimea.
It is harder, with a subsidized budget, sanctions, problems. But who doesn't have them.
Let's see how next. So far, you can live like that.

[sharp-lad]

Don't want to remember the Kosovo precedent?

[Niel-le-Calais]

Quote: sharp-lad

Don't want to remember the Kosovo precedent?

yes such "precedents" in history ..
There are no rules and no exceptions.
WHAT is typical in human society.
We have not gone that far from our ancestors, except that the tools have changed.

[sharp-lad]

Well, then it makes no sense to constantly raise the topic of Crimea's return to its homeland. Moreover, the Crimeans, for the most part, decided on their own.

[boris epstein]

"The Central Powers then recognized the UPR as an independent state." They acknowledged it, but Germany did not hesitate to send troops into the "nezalezhna" and began to pump food from there and export black soil in echelons.

[cniza]

Then they robbed not weakly ...

[Sergey Oreshin]

In fact, the Germans themselves admitted that they were able to realize their plans to export food and raw materials from Ukraine only by 20-25%.
As Lenin sarcastically remarked, the only thing that the Germans took out from the occupied territories in 1918 was ... Bolshevism. Already in November 1918, revolutions took place in Austria-Hungary and Germany, which led to the fall of the Habsburgs and Hohenzollerns

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Boris Epstein

They recognized it, but Germany did not hesitate to send troops into the "nezalezhna" and began to pump food from there and export black soil in echelons.

You are not right. This is a European recognition of Kaiser's Germany, then he was still a guy with Braunau. They recognized Ukraine, but as part of Germany As the Reichskommissariat.

[boris epstein]

And the guy from Braunau quickly transferred the Svidomites who had gathered in Lvov to the concentration camps in June 1941 to elect the leadership of Ukraine and to recognize its non-profitability. GUF 271, formed from Ukrainians.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Boris Epstein

And the guy from Braunau quickly imprisoned the Svidomites in the concentration camps in June 1941, who had gathered in Lvov to elect the leadership of Ukraine and to recognize its nezalezhnost.

Independence was just announced by the guy from Braunau, but only as the territory of Germany, and an oath to him personally. Now the Turks, then the Poles, then the Lithuanians, then the Swedes and then the Germans, I don’t know who will be now, but I know one thing - they never had and never will.

[Sergey Oreshin]

Actually, this was the meaning of recognition. The Central Powers needed food, they died of hunger at the beginning of the 18th. So we decided to profit from Little Russia. However, they could not really profit from the massive resistance of local residents to the occupation policy.

[Mountain shooter]

Quote: cniza

But they don't want to attach the card

no, they don't need a map ... well, why a map ... one frustration!

[cniza]

Is there truth, but do they need it? they need a freebie.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Mountain Shooter

no, they don't need a map ... well, why a map ... one frustration!

Then, let them seal their mouths with duct tape, it will be easier to breathe.

[BMP-2]

So this will be the next stage: further in the Turkish archives they will "find" a document of 1918, in which Turkish will be approved as the state language of Ukraine! :)))

[tihonmarine]

Quote: BMP-2

further in the Turkish archives they will "find" a document of 1918, in which Turkish will be approved as the state language of Ukraine! :)))

And I still don’t understand why I don’t understand them, but they turn out to speak Turkish.

[Cutter]

But they don't want to attach the card

Victor! Thank God, our Belarus almost didn't get on this map. Otherwise they would "grunt" about territorial claims ....

[cniza]

This is so, and Belarus will be yours and ours, I very much believe that we will be together.

[Pessimist22]

Statehood from 1918 to 1919? Milestones of Ukraine's Independence

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Pessimist22

Statehood from 1918 to 1919? Milestones of Ukraine's Independence

No, before that it was "Ancient Ukraine" - the land of sea-divers.

[Ramadan]

"For your information: The Central Powers are Germany, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire, the Bulgarian Kingdom. It would be strange if these powers, who fought against Russia in WWI, supported its territorial integrity."
Ukraine is now no matter who and who was then. The main thing for them is to present this very document as a sign of proof of the existence of Ukraine before the revolution. And as you know, stoned people don't need anything else. Then they will introduce a story about this in schools, etc. Well, accordingly, children have been learning for 6 years from their ideological history, and not real.

[gurzuf]

Quote: Ramazan

The main thing for them now is to present this very document as a sign of proof of the existence of Ukraine before the revolution

I wonder before what revolution? If before the 2014 revolution, then it is clear.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: Ramazan

The main thing for them is to present this very document as a sign of proof of the existence of Ukraine before the revolution.

And the territory, according to the document, to which they can claim. With this document and poke them on the face, for any territorial claims.

[askort154]

It seems that the Ukrainians decided not only to buy UAVs from them, but also to fraternize with the Turks at the genetic level. Soon they will find documents, as the Turks took away ukrodevushki to the full, and they gave birth to ukroturchat there. As a result, Turks and Ukrainians are blood brothers.

[anjey]

I wonder who, then, took Ishmael? Maybe these tamers lived in it ???? Now they will wash the heads of their children with a Turetsky accent

[Captain45]

Quote: anjey

Now they will wash the heads of their children with a Turetsky accent

"God sent the commissioner for hooves! Shura, why did you buy a typewriter with a Turkish accent?"
- There were no others, Ostap Ibrahimovich! "(C)" Golden Calf "

[anjey]

The son of a Turkish hegemon, Osya, already knew a lot about white pants and Rio De Janeiro

[Niel-le-Calais]

Quote: anjey

I wonder who then took Ishmael

different people at different times
Turks (built a fortress)
Sahaidachny (1609) for example
Repnin 1770
Suvorov 1790
Zass 1809 (after the assault on Resilier and Michelson)
Then the Moldovans "took" 1856 (by PT)
Then the future Romanians in 1861
1877 Russians again and like the previous ones, without a fight
The Romanians lost to Izmail without a fight to the Republic of Ingushetia and this was recorded by the BT 1878 (it's funny that according to Vicki, the majority at that time were "little Russian-speaking", most likely immigrants from the Ukrainian lands)
Then the Romanians in 1917
From the very beginning, the USSR did not recognize this version of the Paris Protocol, and without a fight took Izmail in 1940
From 1941 to 1944 again Romanians and Germans.
Since 1944, again the USSR Zavyalov, Zhdanov, Tolbukhin
Since 1991, not the USSR, but Ukraine.

[tihonmarine]

Quote: askort154

It seems that the Ukrainians decided not only to buy UAVs from them, but also to fraternize with the Turks at the genetic level.

Well, at the genetic level, a very large number of people with Turkic blood. Yes, and not one Russian-Turkish war, they fought side by side like brothers against Russia.

[Niel-le-Calais]

Quote: tihonmarine

Well, at the genetic level, a very large number of people with Turkic blood.

can you at least some proof? Research.
Even if we accept the point of view about raids in which genetic material remains, it should be remembered that the Tatars / Turks killed those who resisted and took them prisoner.
Muslims rarely rape women in the occupied territories. But they were taken prisoner.
So in Turkey, as Suvorov said, a lot of Ivanov and Matren have turned their backs and will fight like ours.

Quote: tihonmarine

Yes, and not one Russian-Turkish war, they fought side by side like brothers against Russia.

the quantitative composition of Ukrainians (immigrants from modern Ukrainian lands) in the armies of the countries of rivals of Russia and Russia itself has always been in favor of Russia.
Not even at times, but dozens of times.
But this is after Hops. Before him Ukraine was at the RP. And there it was just mirrored.
But the main thing for you is not historical facts.
The main thing is to create an image.
Not ours, there have always been enemies ... why should they feel sorry for their busurman ...

[boriz]

There is no Turkic genetics. Turkic is a language. On it (in different variations) people with very different genetics and religions speak. For example, Turks, Yakuts, Chuvash.

[Avior]

Looked at the internet. I did not see any excitement.
Along the way, I learned that a burial of a Scythian warrior 2500 years ago was found on Khortitsa. Height - 1,8 meters.
So much for your undersized ancestors.

Regarding the Brest of the Lithuanian Peace, they write not only that the Central Powers recognized, but that the delegation of the RSFSR recognized the UPR as an independent state.

[Ryazan87]

Moreover, the Soviets formally recognized Ukraine as a subject of international law (not the UPR, of course) in 1921, when the Central Powers ordered to live long:

[poquello]

Quote: Ryazanets87

Moreover, the Soviets formally recognized Ukraine as a subject of international law (not the UPR, of course) in 1921, when the Central Powers ordered to live long:

in, in, "according to the principle of self-determination of peoples", if according to the principle it is not fig on the LDNR and Crimea to speak, and if without a principle, then it is not fig to perceive dill as a state

[Sergey Oreshin]

Yes, the RSFSR officially recognized the independence of the Ukrainian SSR at the beginning of 1919 and, accordingly, during the Soviet-Polish negotiations in Riga in 1920, demanded to admit the delegation of the Ukrainian SSR. What the Poles did.
As for the BSSR, the RSFSR also recognized it as an independent state, but the Belarusian side "entrusted" the negotiations in Riga on its own behalf to the RSFSR delegation

[TAMBU]

yes ... the author doesn't know much about the history of the first half of the XNUMXth century ...

[Niel-le-Calais]

Quote: Avior

on Khortytsya they found the burial of a Scythian warrior 2500 years ago. Height - 1,8 meters.
So much for your undersized ancestors.

military affairs usually took tall people. Height-strength-intimidation. All by natural instincts.
It is now better to have a short stature under an automatic weapon. But nature has not yet had time to invest (and medicine does not always provide) this fact. Too little time has passed.
I do not know who pedals the theme of undersized ancestors, but growth is a direct correlation with climate.
So he's changing. One of the last changes happened in the last century. Ours were below the average of Europeans. Now they have caught up. Acceleration is evident.
And what about the position of the Central countries in relation to the territorial integrity of Russia, then you should ask the author - does he remember how the negotiations took place in general?
The Bolsheviks wanted a separate peace. Get out of the war. Although the Entente ignored this step, and continued to insist on the implementation of the Treaty of Alliance in the Entente.
And on January 3 (n st) 1918, the UCR delegation was invited: its chairman Golubovich announced the Rada's declaration that the power of the Council of People's Commissars does not extend to Ukraine and that the Rada intends to independently conduct peace negotiations. Kühlmann (delegate from Germany) asked Trotsky whether the Rada delegation should be considered part of the Russian delegation or whether it represents an independent state. Trotsky replied that he recognizes the independence of the "Ukrainian delegation", specifying that Ukraine itself "is now in the process of its self-determination."
Under the terms of the Brest Peace of March 1918, the RSFSR undertook one of the points to recognize
recognize the Ukrainian People's Republic as an independent state with the withdrawal of troops from there.
Already on November 11, the Entente forced Germany to abandon this treaty. and on November 13 it was liquidated by the Council of People's Commissars.
How difficult it was. It was these all treaties and events that later influenced the fact that the USSR was quickly recognized (as a union of republics and not just Bolsheviks in Petrograd)
and from February 1920, confessions poured in from neighbors and beyond.
For the USSR, these agreements are also significant. And for the RF.

In other words, for modern Ukraine, the interpretations of those who eventually suffered defeat in the First World War are extremely important. For information: Central Powers - Germany, Austria-Hungary, Ottoman Empire, Bulgarian Kingdom. It would be strange if these powers, who fought in WWI against Russia, supported its territorial integrity.

for the birth of the USSR, these "interpretations" were important. For the UPR (and its follower / successor), Ukraine is also important, having historical significance.
For the RF are just as important. For this is also its history and a turning point, and more than that, decisions were made on the territory of modern Russia (Petrograd). Both separate and concessions and recognition of the UPR.

[gx200gx]

"Guys confidently went to success!" Have you tried to calculate the benefit from the "dumped" happiness, have become thoughtful, do we need such happiness?

[rocket757]

Little joys, little people ... let them, we don't care about that.

[cniza]

Quote: rocket757

Little joys, little people ... let them, we don't care about that.

I would say small people are happy to find at least some kind of memory that they signed something ...

[rocket757]

What are all those signatures of LOSERS!
Then, and even now, those pieces of paper are good only for .... purposeful use.

[cniza]

This raises the question of why these documents ended up in Turkey, and most importantly how? ...

[rocket757]

So they ran, the signers ran wherever they could ... by the way, because they perfectly understood that these pieces of paper would not save them ...

[cniza]

That is, this is the original UNR?

[rocket757]

Let the experts hope / test. There are also enough fakes ...

[Normal ok]

Quote: cniza

This raises the question of why these documents ended up in Turkey, and most importantly how? ...

The Ottoman Empire in WWI was an ally of Germany and Austria. Accordingly, she was one of the signatories to the agreement. Accordingly, it had its own copy of the contract.
PS. Colonel-General should be ashamed for his poor knowledge of the history of wars.

[TAMBU]

In other words, for modern Ukraine, the interpretations of those who eventually suffered defeat in the First World War are extremely important.

For an attempt to incite ethnic hatred, it is easy to forget that Russia can hardly be counted among the winners of the First World War ...

[Selenium]

Lost to the losing side. Of course she was dismembered. Payment for defeat.

[jaroff]

It was in the temporarily occupied territories of the Republic of Ingushetia by the troops of the central powers that the so-called. independent states Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania.
Russia's withdrawal from the war, from the Entente, deprived Russia of victory in the war. Thus, he indirectly transferred her from the winners to the vanquished. For only the defeated empires disintegrated and new state formations appeared on their ruins.

[yfast]

Quote: Avior

Looked at the internet. I did not see any excitement.
Along the way, I learned that a burial of a Scythian warrior 2500 years ago was found on Khortitsa. Height - 1,8 meters.
So much for your undersized ancestors ..

The caravan passed by, at night the locals were stabbed to death in everyday life, the locals on ribbons, the warrior was buried. Maybe it was a proto-African American.

[Niel-le-Calais]

Quote: yfast

The caravan passed by, at night the locals were stabbed to death in everyday life, the locals were stabbed with ribbons, the warrior was buried

the data refutes such a theory
“The burial was made in an earthen catacomb about three meters deep. Our ancestors made great efforts to protect the burial from robbers, because the entrance to the catacombs was blocked by a large number of heavy granite boulders, ”said the reserve.
And this is a burial with attributes. Who will spend money on this if the disassembly

a 3-year-old man is buried in the catacomb, which is about 40 m deep. The deceased was tall for his time - about 180 cm.

“The burial was made in a catacomb, that is, this is not an ordinary pit, but such an improvised underground building. One of the versions that scientists say that the Scythian catacombs are just a reproduction of a building in a dwelling, that is, a wagon, but underground. A warrior of great stature. He has good preservation of his teeth, that is, he is a man who ate well. He lived for many years. About 40 years. It will be more precisely known later. He had a quiver with arrows, which indicates that he was a warrior, "Nikonenko said.

[wow]

Thought gets richer ...! Or - when the dog has nothing else to do, she herself ... licks one place.

[parusnik]

The central powers then recognized the UPR as an independent state.

The Brest-Litovsk agreement provided the UPR with German and Austro-Hungarian military assistance in pushing back Soviet forces from the Ukraine in February-April 1918. Soon, German and Austro-Hungarian troops invited by the Ukrainian government to fight Soviet Russia occupied almost the entire territory of the UPR.

[BAI]

What did Turkey have to do with this treaty? Where did she get the original?

[boris epstein]

She was an ally of Germany and Austria-Hungary, and even managed to badly bathe the Anglo-French fleet in an attempt to force the Dardanelles and throw off the British troops from the Gallipoli Peninsula. By the way, Winston Churchill was then Lord of the Admirate in Britain.

[Niel-le-Calais]

Quote: BAI

What did Turkey have to do with this treaty? Where did she get the original?

The Ottoman archives contain many documents from Russia and Bulgaria. (It's easy to see why)

the Ottoman archive, which has more than 90 million documents, contains a huge layer of Ukrainian studies - tens of thousands of documents. “Suddenly noticing information about the Brest-Litovsk Treaty in the list, the diplomats immediately asked for digitized versions of the unique find. And literally on the same day they received them, ”the diplomats inform.

Now the question is what is the relation
The full text of the BLD says that there were signatories and such
From the Imperial Ottoman Government:

His Highness Ibrahim Hakki Pasha, Former Grand Vizier, Senator, Ambassador of His Imperial Majesty the Sultan in Berlin, His Excellency General of the Cavalry, Adjutant of His Imperial Majesty Sultan Tseki Pasha,

By the way, Bulgarians were there too ...
Here are the secretaries of His Highness and brought one of 5 copies of the agreement (one for each side of the agreement) to the OI. Where it got into the Ottoman archive and was kept there.
What a shame for me personally ... many things, documents, ships, airplanes in Russia are not saved at all .. What we do not store. Lost crying Well, we can't even store historical values.
They even tried to break the tradition ... With the Varyag, for example .. it still didn't work out.
Farman Nesterova too .. Ilya M / Russian Knight of Sikorsky .. At least one Imperial battleship .. Not a single battleship of Ushakov / Nakhimov ... not a single ship of the frigate Kornilov .. and the list goes on. Only somehow sad.
I am very sorry that much of the historical heritage of Russia is best preserved outside of Russia ... and this is a tradition!

[Vladimir61]

Let them immediately ask for a letter to the Turkish Sultan! Useful for the future.

The text of the letter does not allow censorship VO

[Alien From]

When a cat has nothing to do, he knows what he does ...

[iouris]

The province went to write ...
And the excitement is in Ukraine.

[maktub]

I learned about the big "information boom" on VO

[Niel-le-Calais]

Quote: maktub

I learned about the big "information boom" on VO

Thanks to VO, I learn EVERYTHING in Ukraine.
What we think, what we want, what we do, what we want to do.
The truth is somehow everything somehow comes down to the fact that we are Bandera and want evil Rossiyushke.
It already brings teeth together all the time ..
And this topic is no exception. I learned only from VO. And only then I saw a couple of articles .... stingy.
On VO there is even more text. But as you can see, we must be in the "hype". Are you in a hype?
No? And there should be!
It's amazing how in the modern world of the Internet you can easily write legends ...
This topic would not have arisen if it were not for the concern of the Turks about special registers - defters.
So they both took them in Constantinople and carried them so carefully preserved, multiplied, preserved. Turkish bureaucrats have saved a lot.
And they were not prevented by natural disasters in Istanbul. No problem with aniline ink (released their own-durable). The collapse of the OI and the transition to the republic did not prevent them either.
The archive is currently open to foreign researchers. The archive provides very comfortable working conditions. Some of the documents have been transferred to the electronic catalog in the archive database (in particular, acts of the 15th – 17th centuries), which makes it convenient to work with them. Nevertheless, according to estimates of some Turkish researchers, by now only about 20% of Ottoman documents have been discovered and described. The remaining 80% are still in the vaults of the Ottoman Archives under the Prime Minister's Office and remain practically undescribed and inaccessible to researchers. Thus, the Turkish archives have just begun to open their funds and publish inventories of previously unknown documents.
There are many unexplored documents from Russia.

[maktub]

Do not be nervous and do not spoil the enamel on your teeth, look at all the statements giggling. At first I also tried to prove something to the "especially stubborn" - not a gratifying thing!
There are also serious, adequate "guys" specialists with whom it is interesting to talk

[Freeman]

Quote: askort154

It seems that the Ukrainians decided not only to buy UAVs from them, but also to fraternize with the Turks at the genetic level. Soon they will find documents, as the Turks took away ukrodevushki to the full, and they gave birth to ukroturchat there. As a result, Turks and Ukrainians are blood brothers.

Yes, such documents have long been known. Remember the same Roksolana, the mother of the Turkish Sultan Selim II.
Historians suggest that Roksolana had "roots" in the territory of present-day Ukraine.
And her son, Sultan Selim II, is known by the nickname "Selim the drunkard" - well, a true Ukrainian.
Based on this, Ukraine can claim the territory of Turkey.

[Niel-le-Calais]

Quote: Freeman

Historians suggest that Roksolana had "roots" in the territory of present-day Ukraine.

There are no reliable facts.
Samuil Tvardovsky wrote that the Turks told him that Roksolana was the daughter of an Orthodox priest from Rohatyn (now in Ivano-Frankivsk region, Ukraine). This is the Rzecz Pospolita at that time.
Bernardo Navagzero called Alexandra Anastasia Lisowska Russian: "[donna] ... di nazione russa"
Ogierm Giselin de Busbeck also called her from the lands of the Republic of Poland (Roksolania - from Strabo) and it was he who invented her European name, Roksolana.
So a fifteen year old girl could be Polish / Ukrainian / Russian / Jewish / etc ..
And Selim's bad heredity
So out of 5 sons (from a fertile female), Selim lived the longest and he was strangled already in Persia.
In the Ottoman Empire itself, Sultan Selim received the nickname "The Drunkard" because of the abuse of wine, but he was not a drunkard in the literal sense of the word. Thanks to a certain Portuguese who contributed to the drunkenness of the Sultan. Although he drank less than Pyotr Mikhailovich. But as soon as not called.
Antichrist, for example, but Natalia's inheritance has nothing to do with it.

Quote: Freeman

And her son, Sultan Selim II, is known by the nickname "Selim the drunkard" - well, a true Ukrainian

That is, heredity from Suleiman is good, but from the mother is bad.
But at least thanks for the recognition of Khyurrem Ukrainian. And then there is so much controversy ..

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Well, why are our menzhayutsya? !!!
What then did Skoropadsky control ?!
land under your stool, urgently convene a conference and noise within the borders of the territory controlled by the Hetman ?!

[fa2998]

Quote: Niel-le-Calais

at the presidential level back in 2003, and in 2004 this treaty was ratified by the parliaments.

So ask WHO was then the president and members of parliament for such a jamb. The treaty that the Ukrainians boast about (allegedly we were a sovereign state), it was Moscow that allocated 5 (five) provinces (regions) under the UPR. Which is about 50% of modern Ukraine ...

[tovarich-andrey.62goncharov]

Be afraid! It will not help you in any scenario and in any case. "An ear from a herring" ... The revolutionary miners of Donbass will wipe their feet on this "bamazhka"!

[O. Bender]

And why is it written with errors on the spread, there are two dots in the whole word above the second letter, but there should be one. not?

[Imobile]

So we know without these documents that the Bolsheviks, and then the RSFSR, gave them a lot

[Machete]

And what will change from that?

Require territory?
Or dough?

And where do Ukrainian originals come from in Turkey?

[cat Rusich]

And when will they find "a letter from the Zaporozhye Cossacks to the Turkish Sultan" in the Turkish archives?

[Lord of the Sith]

As the boys with the settlers were slaves of the Turks, they remained))

[Николаев]

I live in Ukraine. In general, not with an ear, not a snout about this slapstick. That ragulieu is probably masturbating for broodershaft)

[barin]

And I live in Ukraine. It's strange, we only talk about this

[Unemployed]

Quote: Niel-le-Calais

Muslims rarely rape women in the occupied territories. But they were taken prisoner.

They took away. And what did they do with them in captivity? They bathed in champagne, or is it ...?

[bukhach]

Quote: Niel-le-Calais

Runet tends to ascribe a lot of Russophile Bismarck

Only from you did I learn about Bismarck's Russophilia, and hackneyed truths about his Germanness, etc., have long been known to everyone who knows at least a little history.

[tolmachiev51]

Well, I really want to be "great" !!!

[Viktor Sergeev]

Well, how important is the recognition of the master for slaves. Slave nature climbs out of the crest.

[Max Lebedev]

I still do not understand - is it peremog or zrada?

[orionvitt]

"thousands of pages of Ukrainian studies"

And what? Someone suffered outright bullshit, and sane people now have to accept it as "historical documents". We remember very well how this circus and these children's games with the UNR ended. And now the heir to that circus is another circus, with new clowns, called modern Ukraine. Nothing has changed, the same madhouse. And the result will be natural, that is, the complete collapse of "Ukrainianship" as a kind of ideology for especially narrow-minded (to put it mildly) representatives of humanity. As modern practice shows, any political statement or action of Ukraine is frankly outside the boundaries of common sense, somewhere in the field of pathological schizophrenia.

[Andrey Vasilievich]

Quote: Normal ok

Quote: AlexGa

Kindergarten, you might think that there are no other problems.

It's funny that I learn about this "problem" (and earlier about similar ones) not from the Ukrainian media, but from the authors of VO (often anonymous). It seems that the authors of VO search hundreds of tertiary Internet resources to find some "fried" fact and pass it off as the agenda of the neighbors.

And indeed, where do they get this "hot news" from? Does anyone from Ukraine know about this?

[babylon]

It is necessary to recognize and follow this agreement and return the entire southeast of Ukraine to its native harbor.

[Sergey Oreshin]

Quote: Avior

but the fact that the delegation of the RSFSR recognized the UPR as an independent state.

Not certainly in that way. The Russian delegation at the end of 1917 did not object to the participation of the Ukrainian delegation in the peace negotiations.
But already in January 1918, the Russian delegation announced that the UPR did not de facto control the territory of Ukraine, including the capital Kiev, and demanded that the Central Powers admit the delegation of Soviet Ukraine to peace negotiations. However, the Germans refused.

[Egor53]

It’s interesting, and in what boundaries then Ukraine as a country was recognized. I think that then Ukraine had less territory than it is now.

[Sergey Oreshin]

It depends on what Ukraine is, there were a lot of them in the years of the Civil War))
At the end of the 17th, the RSFSR recognized the Ukrainian Soviet Republic within the boundaries of the Poltava, Chernigov, Kiev, Podolsk and Volyn provinces, and also transferred the Taganrog district of the Don Army Region to it. Kharkiv, part of the Yekaterinoslav and Kherson provinces were part of the DKSR, most of the Kherson, part of the Podolsk and Bessarabian provinces - in the Odessa Soviet Republic, the districts of Northern Tavria - in the SSR of Taurida (the last three republics were part of the RSFSR).

In 1918, the Central Powers (and de facto the RSFSR) recognized the Ukrainian State as part of Kharkov, Yekaterinoslav, Kherson, Poltava, Chernigov, Kiev, Podolsk, Volyn, Kholmsk provinces + northern districts of Taurida province, half of the Kursk province and about a third of Voronezh province + some districts of Grodno and Minsk provinces.

In 1919 the RSFSR recognized the Ukrainian SSR within the boundaries of Kharkov, Yekaterinoslav, Kherson, Poltava, Chernigov, Kiev, Podolsk, Volyn provinces + districts of Northern Tavria.
In 1921, according to the Peace of Riga, the Ukrainian SSR transferred part of the Volyn province to Poland, and from the RSFSR it received a part of the Kursk province and some districts of the former Oblast of the Don Army.

This is in short, but everything was very difficult there and you can write a whole monograph