Military Review

In Ukraine, there was a stir because of the Brest-Litovsk peace treaty "discovered" in the Turkish archives

149

News reports from Turkey caused a big informational frenzy in Ukraine. We are talking about messages that say that in the Turkish archives "the originals of the texts of the Brest-Litovsk peace were found."


This is not a treaty that was signed by Soviet Russia, but a treaty that was signed in February 1918 by the so-called Central Powers and representatives of the Ukrainian People's Republic (UPR).

MFA of Ukraine:

For the first time on the Internet - the original of the ratification document signed by Hetman Skoropadsky and the originals of the texts of the Brest-Litovsk peace treaty, including with the Ottoman Empire. All documents are striking in quality, exquisite style of execution, artistic approach to calligraphy and a clear wax seal of the large state seal.



The same imprint of the seal, which the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine calls "state":


Another photo of the document:


The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry said that they had requested digital copies of the document from the Turkish side and "received them immediately." It is added that in total, the Turkish archive contains "thousands of pages of Ukrainian studies".

Information excitement in Ukraine about the "find" in the Turkish archive is connected with the fact that in Kiev they emphasize the "statehood of the act".

From the statement:

The central powers then recognized the UPR as an independent state.

In other words, for modern Ukraine, the interpretations of those who eventually suffered defeat in the First World War are extremely important. For information: Central Powers - Germany, Austria-Hungary, Ottoman Empire, Bulgarian Kingdom. It would be strange if these powers, who fought in WWI against Russia, supported its territorial integrity.
Photos used:
MFA of Ukraine
149 comments
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  1. Mouse
    Mouse 15 November 2020 16: 01
    35
    Big information boom in Ukraine

    For anything you boil over, except hunger strike ... wink
    1. Thrifty
      Thrifty 15 November 2020 17: 06
      14
      Well, now the Turks will have a new global competitor, the "Eurasian Vukroin empire" with territorial claims to all countries of Eurasia wassat
      1. Machito
        Machito 16 November 2020 07: 47
        +9
        Laughing out loud laughing lol good
        Oh, why such a valuable document was not found in Shusha in Karabakh? That's what it means to elect a clown president. However, Ukraine's stern wagging towards Turkey strongly resembles the multi-vector policy of the Zaporozhye Sichi. Ukrainians and Turks are brothers forever. The skakuasses were not forgotten, like slaves rowed on Turkish galleys, chained to the oars lol
        1. major147
          major147 16 November 2020 15: 25
          +5
          Quote: Bearded
          The skakuasses were not forgotten, like slaves rowed on Turkish galleys, chained to oars

          Yes, they don't care "whose galleys to row." At least in Turkish, at least in Polish, if only the owners indicated where. After all, there is no mind to lay the path. And it is not at all important for them where the "instructions" of their masters will lead!
    2. Fantazer911
      Fantazer911 16 November 2020 20: 21
      +2
      Interestingly, this document marks the borders of the UPR, of that time, and in what areas, if something, let Russia turn its territory back, and remain within the boundaries of the 18th century of the last century!
      1. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 17 November 2020 08: 55
        +1
        In fact, not everything is so simple with these boundaries. In 1918, the Central Powers included the entire territory of Donbass, Belgorod region, south-west of Kursk, western and south-western regions of Voronezh province, western regions of Bryansk region into the Ukrainian State (these territories were occupied by German troops during their offensive in the spring of 1918) .).
        In addition, a part of modern South Belarus (Polesie, Gomel region) was transferred to Ukraine. The Germans, in addition, secretly from the Austrians, promised after WWII to transfer to Skoropadsky Kholmshchyna
        At the same time, Galicia, Bukovina, Transcarpathia remained part of Austria-Hungary, and the southern districts of Bessarabia were occupied by Romania.
        Crimea was directly included in the German Empire, and the Germans resolutely rejected Ukraine's claims to it
        1. Fantazer911
          Fantazer911 17 November 2020 12: 46
          0
          OK, thanks, hi
  2. Alexga
    Alexga 15 November 2020 16: 05
    21
    Kindergarten, you might think that there are no other problems.
    1. svp67
      svp67 15 November 2020 18: 52
      15
      Quote: AlexGa
      Kindergarten, you might think that there are no other problems.

      There are a lot of problems, but somehow the people need to be distracted from them ...
    2. Normal ok
      Normal ok 15 November 2020 23: 03
      -8
      Quote: AlexGa
      Kindergarten, you might think that there are no other problems.

      It's funny that I learn about this "problem" (and earlier about similar ones) not from the Ukrainian media, but from the authors of VO (often anonymous). It seems that the authors of VO search hundreds of tertiary Internet resources to find some "fried" fact and pass it off as the agenda of the neighbors.
      1. alexmach
        alexmach 16 November 2020 00: 02
        10
        You could learn about this problem from first-class Russian literature, or from theatrical performances. If you read the classics of the 20th century.
  3. cniza
    cniza 15 November 2020 16: 06
    73
    News reports from Turkey caused a big informational frenzy in Ukraine. We are talking about messages that say that in the Turkish archives "the originals of the texts of the Brest-Litovsk peace were found."


    But they don't want to attach the card

    1. Mouse
      Mouse 15 November 2020 16: 11
      29
      Too shy to ask ... to what place? belay
      1. cniza
        cniza 15 November 2020 16: 13
        20
        I cannot advise this, they will cope here on their own ...
        1. Mouse
          Mouse 15 November 2020 16: 18
          +7
          Yes, there is someone to advise ... laughing
          I do not order, but I strongly advise ... wassat
          1. cniza
            cniza 15 November 2020 16: 29
            +7
            Well, if only this one with a pie on his head:

            1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
              Boris ⁣ Shaver 15 November 2020 17: 15
              +8
              Quote: cniza
              with a pie on my head

              Looks like ram horns
            2. Clear
              Clear 15 November 2020 20: 49
              +5
              Quote: cniza
              Well, if only this one with a pie on his head:



              And, this guy, someone else stole the seal. Lies on the right.
              1. cniza
                cniza 15 November 2020 21: 18
                +6
                Uh, there is a big chest of what he appropriated, but the burden was not strong ...
              2. Normal ok
                Normal ok 15 November 2020 23: 39
                -4
                Quote: Clear
                Quote: cniza
                Well, if only this one with a pie on his head:



                And, this guy, someone else stole the seal. Lies on the right.

                This "fellow", lieutenant general of the Russian army, a participant in the Russo-Japanese and the First World Wars (6 orders, including George). And your top-down attitude is clearly not appropriate here.
                PS. From the current bell tower it is easy to judge the people of the past. I should have seen how some of the local commentators would behave in their place.
                1. Boris ⁣ Shaver
                  Boris ⁣ Shaver 18 November 2020 02: 04
                  +1
                  Quote: Normal ok
                  This "small", lieutenant general of the Russian army, a participant in the Russo-Japanese and the First World Wars (6 orders, including George)

                  I will often repeat this anegdote.

                  An old Scotsman sits in a pub, sits, sips a beer, smokes a pipe.
                  He sat, sat and said: - This mill, I built myself, ONE (!) ...
                  collected stones, mixed mortar and built ... but for some reason no one
                  calls me McFlaren the Mill Builder.
                  He sat, took a sip of beer, took a drag.
                  - This garden, which now has the largest harvests of fruits and berries,
                  I planted it myself, ONE (!) ... everyone rejoices and gathers fruits. But somehow
                  no one calls me McFlaren the gardener.
                  He sat, took a sip of beer, took a drag.
                  - This bridge, I built myself, ONE (!), Cut down trees, sanded and
                  made a bridge, now there are cars and people walking on it. But somehow nobody
                  does not call me McFlaren the bridge builder.
                  He sat, took a sip of beer, took a drag.
                  - But it was worth it once ... this unfortunate sheep ...
        2. Doliva63
          Doliva63 15 November 2020 17: 28
          +4
          Quote: cniza
          I cannot advise this, they will cope here on their own ...

          However, they could not laughing
          1. cniza
            cniza 15 November 2020 17: 37
            +5
            They still have time while they have ... yes
            1. Doliva63
              Doliva63 15 November 2020 17: 44
              +5
              Quote: cniza
              They still have time while they have ... yes

              It seems to me that while they are "ruled" because of the "puddles", time has stopped for them. But this is IMHO, of course hi
              1. cniza
                cniza 15 November 2020 17: 46
                +4
                There are such suspicions, only after that there will be a flight to the abyss. hi
                1. Doliva63
                  Doliva63 15 November 2020 18: 13
                  +2
                  Quote: cniza
                  There are such suspicions, only after that there will be a flight to the abyss. hi

                  All this is sad. It would be better home, returned to the family.
                  1. cniza
                    cniza 15 November 2020 18: 20
                    +8
                    Sooner or later this will happen and everyone will be jailed Bandera. but how many troubles they still have time to do.
                    1. Doliva63
                      Doliva63 15 November 2020 19: 49
                      +2
                      Quote: cniza
                      Sooner or later this will happen and everyone will be jailed Bandera. but how many troubles they still have time to do.

                      So I say - all this is sad. I hope both Belarus and Kazakhstan will not be surrendered so easily.
                      1. cniza
                        cniza 15 November 2020 21: 16
                        +1
                        I do not just hope, I believe in it, now everything will go crazy and everything will become normal ...
        3. Cutter
          Cutter 15 November 2020 18: 19
          0
          hi Cope! Just what place? Victor, they only have one job ... hi
          1. cniza
            cniza 15 November 2020 18: 28
            +1
            Greetings hi Something was not visible for a long time.

            Well, they also love to devour, especially for free ... yes
            1. Cutter
              Cutter 15 November 2020 19: 14
              17
              Either in the "bathhouse", now in prostration ... laughing In short, alive. And about Ukraine - oh! Friendly NO! I DO NOT WANT ZMAGARS to spend the night in MY LOVELY AND QUIET BELARUS (REPUBLIC OF BELARUS). They are, but believe me, when you go around the city, 10-15-20 people are standing along the main avenues. A bus drove up with a riot policeman ... Raging d / b that block the main thoroughfares of the city, and earlier (August) insane mothers rolled out strollers with babies. On Friday, I swore to myself - I WILL PRESS THE GASKETS, DETAINED, THE MOTHER WAS BAD ... NOW I WILL PRESS "TO THE LIGHT" - I WILL PRESS ... Approximately 85-90% of the population has the same mood.
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk 15 November 2020 19: 53
                +1
                Quote: Cutter
                .Some d / b, which block the main thoroughfares of the city, and earlier (August) insane mothers

                I believe, I understand, I sympathize, but ...
                Quote: Cutter
                PRESS WILL

                You can't. Do not. They are sick. Patients are not allowed. They need to be treated. Occupational therapy.
                1. Cutter
                  Cutter 15 November 2020 22: 43
                  +5
                  Siberian hi , understand, the insane are enraging, WHAT DO THEY NEED? Ai, excuse me, fellow countryman, he himself lived in Transbaikalia for 11 years, a rich land, I understand everyone and everything, but now - "... no words, only drooling." hi
                  1. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 15 November 2020 22: 59
                    +2
                    Quote: Cutter
                    Siberian hi, understand

                    You can't even imagine how I understand you. hi
                2. Jager
                  Jager 16 November 2020 18: 14
                  +2
                  Occupational therapy on the construction of a bridge across the Lena to Yakutsk or Sakhalin.
                  1. Krasnoyarsk
                    Krasnoyarsk 16 November 2020 18: 31
                    +1
                    Quote: Jager
                    Occupational therapy on the construction of a bridge across the Lena to Yakutsk or Sakhalin.

                    Not a bad option.
              2. cniza
                cniza 15 November 2020 21: 15
                +6
                Quote: Cutter
                On Friday, I swore to myself - I WILL PRESS THE GASKETS, DETAINED, THE MOTHER WAS BAD ... NOW I WILL PRESS TO THE LIGHT BULBS ... 85-90% of the population has the same mood.


                Guys, don't flinch ...
                1. Cutter
                  Cutter 15 November 2020 22: 32
                  +7
                  No, brothers, we cannot ... At your borders ... it will gather if we surrender ... We cannot !!! soldier And no one is going !!! good
                  1. cniza
                    cniza 16 November 2020 09: 09
                    +4
                    Thank God! Greetings! hi
                    The main thing is to calm down the rabid ...
      2. Russ
        Russ 15 November 2020 17: 01
        +8
        Quote: Mouse
        Too shy to ask ... to what place? belay

        Wherever you put it ... everywhere is a complete ass ... repeat
      3. tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
        tovarich-andrey.62goncharov 15 November 2020 18: 14
        +1
        "I hesitate to ask ... to what place?"
        On the coffin of their wet, wet dreams ...
    2. Alexga
      Alexga 15 November 2020 16: 27
      17
      But they don't want to attach the card

      From such a map, mass suicide can begin in Ukraine, they like to draw maps where they also own the Kuban.
      1. cniza
        cniza 15 November 2020 16: 30
        12
        So they did not manage to draw then, the statehood ended.
        1. Alexga
          Alexga 15 November 2020 16: 55
          +2
          There is a rather curious film "Cathedral on the Blood", it is on YouTube. Manufactured in 2006. There is a brief history of Ukraine, only footage of the chronicle. It is better not to listen to the commentary, it is mixed with a modern vision of history. The first series is generally a masterpiece, there is a performance of the first so-called. President. and so there he speaks the classic Ukrainian language, not like the current one.! Better to watch in your free time, so for curiosity.
          1. cniza
            cniza 15 November 2020 17: 20
            +7
            Thank you, but I will not waste time, all their attempts are repeated today ...
    3. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 15 November 2020 16: 30
      10
      Quote: cniza
      But they don't want to attach the card

      Here is according to the act, cards and confessions The central powers then recognized the UPR as an independent state. leave everything according to this document, all the territories recognized by Ukraine, not recognized back to Russia (by the way, there is nothing about Crimea). Well, Western Ukraine can be put up for sale.
      1. cniza
        cniza 15 November 2020 16: 33
        20
        It was then like this:
        1. Sergey Oreshin
          Sergey Oreshin 17 November 2020 09: 00
          0
          In fact, the boundaries of the DKSR were smaller than indicated on this map. Because Northern Tavria was part of the Soviet Socialist Republic of Taurida, and the Yekaterinoslav province de facto was not controlled at all at the beginning of 1918, there was a mixed hodgepodge of Bolsheviks, Left Socialist-Revolutionaries, Socialist-Revolutionaries-maximalists, anarchists and other batek-atamans
      2. Niel-le-Calais
        Niel-le-Calais 15 November 2020 16: 45
        -37 qualifying.
        Quote: tihonmarine
        leave everything according to this document, all the territories recognized by Ukraine, not recognized back to Russia (by the way, there is nothing about Crimea). Well, Western Ukraine can be put up for sale.

        Ukraine and Russia mutually recognized their land borders at the presidential level back in 2003, and in 2004 this agreement was ratified by parliaments. The only part of the border between Ukraine and Russia that has not been delimited so far is the Kerch Strait, that is, the sea border.
        By the way, Crimea is also recognized by the Russian Federation as part of Ukraine. The latest events in 2014 were one-sided and were not fixed anywhere except for the Russian Federation. Quite the opposite. Are an international violation under the resolution.
        1. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 15 November 2020 17: 37
          28
          Quote: Niel-le-Calais
          Ukraine and Russia mutually recognized their land borders at the presidential level back in 2003, and in 2004

          Presidents come and go, but history remains. The Russian land was and will be, and the UPR appeared in 1918. If the 2003 treaty were legitimate, then you would not recognize Brest - Litovsk. And once recognized, then return everything stolen back, as of 1918.
          1. Niel-le-Calais
            Niel-le-Calais 15 November 2020 22: 01
            -10 qualifying.
            Quote: tihonmarine
            Presidents come and go, but history remains

            absolutely right.
            The 2004 treaty, ratified by both parliaments, is still in force.
            Quote: tihonmarine
            Russian land as it was and will be, and the UPR appeared in 1918

            So in Ukraine they do not refuse that everything "Rusko" is Ukrainian.
            So all the "Ruska zemli" are Ukrainian.
            The main thing is that not Russian laughing (in Ukrainian it's funny that everything is Russian-tse Russian, but Rus-tse Ruska, its own is shorter)
            so that the common history graters have long come to the brink of carve-up. Some say that there were no others, while others that the first were not.
            Quote: tihonmarine
            If the 2003 treaty were legitimate, you would not recognize Brest - Litovskiy

            It seems that he wrote in Russian that this treaty was destroyed by the Entente and the Council of People's Commissars back in November 1918.
            Maybe in English you need. I can. But again in Russian.
            Legitimate and ratified is
            "On the ratification of the Treaty between the Russian Federation and Ukraine on the Russian-Ukrainian state border" 2003
            And in 2004 its ratification
            The treaty between the Russian Federation and Ukraine on the Russian-Ukrainian state border, signed in Kiev on January 28, 2003, is the basic document defining the line of the state border between the two states on its land section, including rivers and lakes, as well as a principled approach to resolving issues connected with the Black and Azov Seas and the Kerch Strait.
            The line of the state border is marked on geographic maps as a result of joint work on border delimitation carried out by the Russian and Ukrainian delimitation commissions. The delimitation commissions were attended by representatives of the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the Federal Security Service of Russia, Roskartografiya, Roszemkadastra (Goszemkadastrsyamki), deputy heads of administrations of the Belgorod, Bryansk, Voronezh, Kursk and Rostov regions. The existing administrative border between the RSFSR and the Ukrainian SSR at the time of the collapse of the USSR was taken as a basis, taking into account its registration by the relevant state legal acts. The description of the state border crossing and the Album of maps of the state border between the Russian Federation and Ukraine, attached to the Agreement as an integral part of it, have been drawn up and agreed upon.

            And who recognizes BPD as fundamental to the present day?
            Have you read the article carefully *? There is about the recognition of the UPR by the Central Powers.
            I corrected that before the Central UPR was recognized by the Bolsheviks. What they also reported to the Central Powers!
            Modern Ukraine, based on the Ukrainian SSR, as recognized by the Russian Federation (and all the others), which is based on the RSFSR.
            1. tihonmarine
              tihonmarine 15 November 2020 23: 15
              +3
              Quote: Niel-le-Calais
              So in Ukraine do not refuse that everything "Rusko" is Ukrainian.

              This is the difference you have with Russianness and Ukrainianness. I don’t know who you are now, but I believe here only Taras Shevchenko, the great Little Russian:

              Yak die, then cheer
              Mene at the grave
              Middle step wide
              On Ukrainian Miles,
              1. Niel-le-Calais
                Niel-le-Calais 15 November 2020 23: 51
                -4
                Quote: tihonmarine
                but here I believe only Taras Shevchenko, the great Little Russian:

                yes, I like Pushkin more.
                And I know that Russian is a rather flexible language, easily adapting to the requirements of the time.
                Quote: tihonmarine
                Here is the difference between you and Russianness and Ukrainianness.

                somehow provided the texts of the official Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation on this topic.
                So they also write "to Ukraine."
                I personally do not care how others write. This is not in dispute. And conformity to modernity.
                I even started Ukrainian from the 4th grade ... and a year later I was already studying English. Along with Ukrainian.
                And wait, guiding her daughter, and she also learns Russian first. And only then Ukrainian and English.
                True, she has a Russian Ukrainian family.
                1. tihonmarine
                  tihonmarine 16 November 2020 10: 32
                  +2
                  Quote: Niel-le-Calais
                  True, she has a Russian Ukrainian family.

                  The main thing is not to forget your beginnings, both Russian and Little Russian.
        2. tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
          tovarich-andrey.62goncharov 15 November 2020 18: 25
          13
          “Do not hope that once you take advantage of Russia's weakness, you will receive dividends forever. Russians always come for their money. And when they come, don’t rely on the Jesuit agreements you signed, supposedly to justify you. They are not worth the paper on which they are written. Therefore, it is worth either playing fair with the Russians, or not playing at all. " - Remember these words if you have not learned all the lessons so far. Then it will be late "guard" to shout.

          The original publication source: https://politikus.ru/articles/politics/17333-zheleznyy-kancler-dogovor-s-rossiey-ne-stoit-toy-bumagi-na-kotoroy-napisan-tak-li-eto-chitaem-polnuyu -versiyu-vyskazyvaniya.html
          Politikus.ru
          1. Cutter
            Cutter 15 November 2020 19: 49
            +1
            Handsomely! They always come, even though they are kind ... good
          2. Niel-le-Calais
            Niel-le-Calais 15 November 2020 22: 14
            -7
            Quote: tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
            Remember these words if you have not learned all the lessons so far

            History suggests that this phrase, in one form or another, is already 5 centuries old.
            In particular, Austrian Foreign Minister Johann Bernard Graf von Rechberg used it in 1861 in relation to the guarantees of sovereignty of Italy, which had barely hatched from the Austrian colony. It was not Russia that provided these guarantees.
            Blatter ---: "Our constitution is not worth the paper it is written on!" It happened in 1871
            In 1885, a certain Friedrich Engels appears in the arena and reports that "the Russian budget is not worth the paper it is written on."
            Well, in 1951 Harry Truman said that "agreements with the Bolsheviks are not worth paper."
            The trouble with all the quotes on the Internet is that people readily believe in their authenticity.
            VI Lenin

            The trouble with the Russians is that they believe in the authenticity of Bismarck's quotes on the Internet!
            And some have skipped history lessons. Bismarck is not a Russophile. He is always for the interests of Prussia.
            And it was he who nurtured an alliance against RI. And it is he who is largely responsible for the policies of the German Congress; he is German to the bone.
            Runet tends to ascribe a lot of Russophile to Bismarck.
          3. New Year day
            New Year day 16 November 2020 09: 05
            +2
            Quote: tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
            Do not hope that

            Bismarck did not say that. Proven fake
        3. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 15 November 2020 19: 09
          +7
          Quote: Niel-le-Calais
          Ukraine and Russia mutually recognized their land borders

          And why exactly these borders should be left, and not those that were when the UPR was recognized, or its older borders, they were the same at one time recognized as correct.
          Now, in fact, there are already other borders, and the fact that they are not recognized by a part of states does not change the essence. And what is interesting: with the collapse of the country, the lands that had been with it from time immemorial left the Russian Federation, and for some reason we must recognize this as correct, but not recognize when part of these lands returned to their historical homeland. Where is the logic ?
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. Niel-le-Calais
            Niel-le-Calais 15 November 2020 22: 24
            -5
            Quote: Bad_gr
            And why exactly these borders should be left, and not those that were when the UPR was recognized,

            according to an intergovernmental agreement adopted by both countries and ratified by their parliaments.
            I gave the text of the ratification.
            Quote: Niel-le-Calais
            The existing administrative border between the RSFSR and the Ukrainian SSR at the time of the collapse of the USSR was taken as a basis, taking into account its registration by the relevant state legal acts

            but what about
            Quote: Bad_gr
            during the collapse of the country, the lands that had been with it from time immemorial left the Russian Federation, and we, for some reason, should recognize this as correct, but not recognize when part of these lands returned to their historical homeland. Where is the logic ?

            I missed, of course, the collapse of the Russian Federation .. And its lands. winked
            But here is the collapse of the USSR due to the fault of Moscow with the vesting of all rights to the lands of the Ukrainian SSR to the state of Ukraine with the confirmation of the same Moscow, I did not miss.
            There is no concept of a historical homeland.
            With fire and sword. Strength and alliances. Deaths and large battalions ..
            Gunpowder and iron.
            This is how all the lands joined.
            With regard to claims against Ukraine. Truly always interested in the fact that ALL Russians have territorial claims to Ukraine. And when words are heard from Ukraine about this threat (which has already proven in practice that it is real and already feasible), then some kind of fraternity, peaceful coexistence, and the enemies of the Ukrainians, Bandera, are not killed.
            Before reading Runet since the advent of the Internet, I have always seen claims exclusively to Ukraine.
            Now she appropriated the land, then it must be taken away, it must be returned ..
            There are no such claims to any country. And to Ukraine there is. There were now.
            It is a pity that Ukraine was chukhaya for a long time, because since the time of Tuzla it has become clear that war cannot be avoided.
            And in a moment of turmoil, threats are implemented.
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 15 November 2020 22: 34
              +3
              Quote: Niel-le-Calais
              There is no concept of a historical homeland.

              That is, what kind of territory was able to conquer and defend - it is yours. So what then are the questions about the ownership of Crimea?
            2. Stas157
              Stas157 16 November 2020 04: 16
              +5
              Quote: Niel-le-Calais
              There is no concept of a historical homeland.
              With fire and sword. Strength and alliances. Deaths and large battalions ..
              Gunpowder and iron.
              This is how all the lands joined.

              The fact of the matter is that Ukraine did not conquer its lands in battle, but received them through a misunderstanding. Russia (USSR) donated them not at all with the expectation that Ukraine would separate. This was done when Ukraine was an integral part of Russia (USSR) and was not an independent state.

              And the current state of Ukraine can hardly be called an independent state, although formally it is. But in fact, this is some kind of Gulyai-Pole, which flies into the abyss and is controlled by external players. Nothing creative, everything is falling, becoming impoverished, the population is disappearing ... Only one show-off and claims to others.
        4. businessv
          businessv 15 November 2020 21: 21
          +5
          Quote: Niel-le-Calais
          The latest events in 2014 were one-sided and were not fixed anywhere except for the Russian Federation. Quite the opposite. Are an international violation under the resolution.

          It remains to consider the legality of the transfer of Crimea to the Square.
          1. Niel-le-Calais
            Niel-le-Calais 15 November 2020 22: 33
            -1
            Quote: businessv
            It remains to consider the legality of the transfer of Crimea to the Square.

            post factum unilaterally is possible.
            But why?
            The transfer of Crimea was a matter for the USSR.
            The Russian Federation cannot unilaterally revise because it itself recognized the borders until 1991.
            You must first cancel a bunch of acts and ratifications. That then it will be pointless to waste time on the transfer.
            And again, why?
            Lives like North Cyprus. Slightly worse than Turkey but lives. So it will be with the Crimea.
            It is harder, with a subsidized budget, sanctions, problems. But who doesn't have them.
            Let's see how next. So far, you can live like that.
        5. sharp-lad
          sharp-lad 15 November 2020 23: 20
          +1
          Don't want to remember the Kosovo precedent?
          1. Niel-le-Calais
            Niel-le-Calais 15 November 2020 23: 54
            -1
            Quote: sharp-lad
            Don't want to remember the Kosovo precedent?

            yes such "precedents" in history ..
            There are no rules and no exceptions.
            WHAT is typical in human society.
            We have not gone that far from our ancestors, except that the tools have changed.
            1. sharp-lad
              sharp-lad 16 November 2020 13: 36
              +1
              Well, then it makes no sense to constantly raise the topic of Crimea's return to its homeland. Moreover, the Crimeans, for the most part, decided on their own.
      3. boris epstein
        boris epstein 15 November 2020 17: 10
        14
        "The Central Powers then recognized the UPR as an independent state." They acknowledged it, but Germany did not hesitate to send troops into the "nezalezhna" and began to pump food from there and export black soil in echelons.
        1. cniza
          cniza 15 November 2020 17: 21
          11
          Then they robbed not weakly ...
          1. Sergey Oreshin
            Sergey Oreshin 17 November 2020 09: 05
            +1
            In fact, the Germans themselves admitted that they were able to realize their plans to export food and raw materials from Ukraine only by 20-25%.
            As Lenin sarcastically remarked, the only thing that the Germans took out from the occupied territories in 1918 was ... Bolshevism. Already in November 1918, revolutions took place in Austria-Hungary and Germany, which led to the fall of the Habsburgs and Hohenzollerns
        2. tihonmarine
          tihonmarine 15 November 2020 17: 45
          +4
          Quote: Boris Epstein
          They recognized it, but Germany did not hesitate to send troops into the "nezalezhna" and began to pump food from there and export black soil in echelons.

          You are not right. This is a European recognition of Kaiser's Germany, then he was still a guy with Braunau. They recognized Ukraine, but as part of Germany As the Reichskommissariat.
          1. boris epstein
            boris epstein 15 November 2020 17: 51
            +8
            And the guy from Braunau quickly transferred the Svidomites who had gathered in Lvov to the concentration camps in June 1941 to elect the leadership of Ukraine and to recognize its non-profitability. GUF 271, formed from Ukrainians.
            1. tihonmarine
              tihonmarine 15 November 2020 18: 03
              +6
              Quote: Boris Epstein
              And the guy from Braunau quickly imprisoned the Svidomites in the concentration camps in June 1941, who had gathered in Lvov to elect the leadership of Ukraine and to recognize its nezalezhnost.

              Independence was just announced by the guy from Braunau, but only as the territory of Germany, and an oath to him personally. Now the Turks, then the Poles, then the Lithuanians, then the Swedes and then the Germans, I don’t know who will be now, but I know one thing - they never had and never will.
        3. Sergey Oreshin
          Sergey Oreshin 17 November 2020 09: 03
          0
          Actually, this was the meaning of recognition. The Central Powers needed food, they died of hunger at the beginning of the 18th. So we decided to profit from Little Russia. However, they could not really profit from the massive resistance of local residents to the occupation policy.
    4. Mountain shooter
      Mountain shooter 15 November 2020 16: 43
      +7
      Quote: cniza
      But they don't want to attach the card

      wassat wassat laughing no, they don't need a map ... well, why a map ... one frustration!
      1. cniza
        cniza 15 November 2020 17: 05
        +3
        Is there truth, but do they need it? they need a freebie. yes
      2. tihonmarine
        tihonmarine 15 November 2020 17: 48
        -1
        Quote: Mountain Shooter
        no, they don't need a map ... well, why a map ... one frustration!

        Then, let them seal their mouths with duct tape, it will be easier to breathe.
        1. BMP-2
          BMP-2 15 November 2020 18: 19
          +5
          So this will be the next stage: further in the Turkish archives they will "find" a document of 1918, in which Turkish will be approved as the state language of Ukraine! :)))
          1. tihonmarine
            tihonmarine 15 November 2020 18: 52
            +1
            Quote: BMP-2
            further in the Turkish archives they will "find" a document of 1918, in which Turkish will be approved as the state language of Ukraine! :)))

            And I still don’t understand why I don’t understand them, but they turn out to speak Turkish.
    5. Cutter
      Cutter 15 November 2020 18: 27
      +1
      But they don't want to attach the card

      Victor! hi Thank God, our Belarus almost didn't get on this map. Otherwise they would "grunt" about territorial claims .... am
      1. cniza
        cniza 15 November 2020 21: 07
        +2
        This is so, and Belarus will be yours and ours, I very much believe that we will be together.
  4. Pessimist22
    Pessimist22 15 November 2020 16: 08
    18
    Statehood from 1918 to 1919? Milestones of Ukraine's Independence smile
    1. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 15 November 2020 16: 33
      +6
      Quote: Pessimist22
      Statehood from 1918 to 1919? Milestones of Ukraine's Independence

      No, before that it was "Ancient Ukraine" - the land of sea-divers.
  5. Ramadan
    Ramadan 15 November 2020 16: 11
    +8
    "For your information: The Central Powers are Germany, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire, the Bulgarian Kingdom. It would be strange if these powers, who fought against Russia in WWI, supported its territorial integrity."
    Ukraine is now no matter who and who was then. The main thing for them is to present this very document as a sign of proof of the existence of Ukraine before the revolution. And as you know, stoned people don't need anything else. Then they will introduce a story about this in schools, etc. Well, accordingly, children have been learning for 6 years from their ideological history, and not real.
    1. gurzuf
      gurzuf 15 November 2020 16: 18
      +4
      Quote: Ramazan
      The main thing for them now is to present this very document as a sign of proof of the existence of Ukraine before the revolution

      I wonder before what revolution? If before the 2014 revolution, then it is clear.
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 15 November 2020 16: 44
      +1
      Quote: Ramazan
      The main thing for them is to present this very document as a sign of proof of the existence of Ukraine before the revolution.

      And the territory, according to the document, to which they can claim. With this document and poke them on the face, for any territorial claims.
  6. askort154
    askort154 15 November 2020 16: 14
    13
    It seems that the Ukrainians decided not only to buy UAVs from them, but also to fraternize with the Turks at the genetic level. Soon they will find documents, as the Turks took away ukrodevushki to the full, and they gave birth to ukroturchat there. As a result, Turks and Ukrainians are blood brothers. fellow
    1. anjey
      anjey 15 November 2020 16: 23
      0
      I wonder who, then, took Ishmael? Maybe these tamers lived in it ???? laughingNow they will wash the heads of their children with a Turetsky accent laughing
      1. Captain45
        Captain45 15 November 2020 16: 37
        +7
        Quote: anjey
        Now they will wash the heads of their children with a Turetsky accent

        "God sent the commissioner for hooves! Shura, why did you buy a typewriter with a Turkish accent?"
        - There were no others, Ostap Ibrahimovich! "(C)" Golden Calf "
        1. anjey
          anjey 15 November 2020 18: 46
          +1
          The son of a Turkish hegemon, Osya, already knew a lot about white pants and Rio De Janeiro laughing
      2. Niel-le-Calais
        Niel-le-Calais 15 November 2020 22: 46
        0
        Quote: anjey
        I wonder who then took Ishmael

        different people at different times
        Turks (built a fortress)
        Sahaidachny (1609) for example
        Repnin 1770
        Suvorov 1790
        Zass 1809 (after the assault on Resilier and Michelson)
        Then the Moldovans "took" 1856 (by PT)
        Then the future Romanians in 1861
        1877 Russians again and like the previous ones, without a fight
        The Romanians lost to Izmail without a fight to the Republic of Ingushetia and this was recorded by the BT 1878 (it's funny that according to Vicki, the majority at that time were "little Russian-speaking", most likely immigrants from the Ukrainian lands)
        Then the Romanians in 1917
        From the very beginning, the USSR did not recognize this version of the Paris Protocol, and without a fight took Izmail in 1940
        From 1941 to 1944 again Romanians and Germans.
        Since 1944, again the USSR Zavyalov, Zhdanov, Tolbukhin
        Since 1991, not the USSR, but Ukraine.
    2. tihonmarine
      tihonmarine 15 November 2020 16: 47
      -1
      Quote: askort154
      It seems that the Ukrainians decided not only to buy UAVs from them, but also to fraternize with the Turks at the genetic level.

      Well, at the genetic level, a very large number of people with Turkic blood. Yes, and not one Russian-Turkish war, they fought side by side like brothers against Russia.
      1. Niel-le-Calais
        Niel-le-Calais 15 November 2020 22: 53
        -3
        Quote: tihonmarine
        Well, at the genetic level, a very large number of people with Turkic blood.

        can you at least some proof? Research.
        Even if we accept the point of view about raids in which genetic material remains, it should be remembered that the Tatars / Turks killed those who resisted and took them prisoner.
        Muslims rarely rape women in the occupied territories. But they were taken prisoner.
        So in Turkey, as Suvorov said, a lot of Ivanov and Matren have turned their backs and will fight like ours.
        Quote: tihonmarine
        Yes, and not one Russian-Turkish war, they fought side by side like brothers against Russia.

        the quantitative composition of Ukrainians (immigrants from modern Ukrainian lands) in the armies of the countries of rivals of Russia and Russia itself has always been in favor of Russia.
        Not even at times, but dozens of times.
        But this is after Hops. Before him Ukraine was at the RP. And there it was just mirrored.
        But the main thing for you is not historical facts.
        The main thing is to create an image.
        Not ours, there have always been enemies ... why should they feel sorry for their busurman ...
      2. boriz
        boriz 17 November 2020 12: 47
        0
        There is no Turkic genetics. Turkic is a language. On it (in different variations) people with very different genetics and religions speak. For example, Turks, Yakuts, Chuvash.
  7. Avior
    Avior 15 November 2020 16: 21
    +5
    Looked at the internet. I did not see any excitement.
    Along the way, I learned that a burial of a Scythian warrior 2500 years ago was found on Khortitsa. Height - 1,8 meters.
    So much for your undersized ancestors.

    Regarding the Brest of the Lithuanian Peace, they write not only that the Central Powers recognized, but that the delegation of the RSFSR recognized the UPR as an independent state.
    1. Ryazan87
      Ryazan87 15 November 2020 16: 27
      +4
      Moreover, the Soviets formally recognized Ukraine as a subject of international law (not the UPR, of course) in 1921, when the Central Powers ordered to live long:

      1. poquello
        poquello 15 November 2020 18: 32
        -2
        Quote: Ryazanets87
        Moreover, the Soviets formally recognized Ukraine as a subject of international law (not the UPR, of course) in 1921, when the Central Powers ordered to live long:


        in, in, "according to the principle of self-determination of peoples", if according to the principle it is not fig on the LDNR and Crimea to speak, and if without a principle, then it is not fig to perceive dill as a state
      2. Sergey Oreshin
        Sergey Oreshin 17 November 2020 09: 14
        0
        Yes, the RSFSR officially recognized the independence of the Ukrainian SSR at the beginning of 1919 and, accordingly, during the Soviet-Polish negotiations in Riga in 1920, demanded to admit the delegation of the Ukrainian SSR. What the Poles did.
        As for the BSSR, the RSFSR also recognized it as an independent state, but the Belarusian side "entrusted" the negotiations in Riga on its own behalf to the RSFSR delegation
    2. TAMBU
      TAMBU 15 November 2020 16: 37
      +2
      yes ... the author doesn't know much about the history of the first half of the XNUMXth century ...
    3. Niel-le-Calais
      Niel-le-Calais 15 November 2020 17: 10
      -5
      Quote: Avior
      on Khortytsya they found the burial of a Scythian warrior 2500 years ago. Height - 1,8 meters.
      So much for your undersized ancestors.

      military affairs usually took tall people. Height-strength-intimidation. All by natural instincts.
      It is now better to have a short stature under an automatic weapon. But nature has not yet had time to invest (and medicine does not always provide) this fact. Too little time has passed.
      I do not know who pedals the theme of undersized ancestors, but growth is a direct correlation with climate.
      So he's changing. One of the last changes happened in the last century. Ours were below the average of Europeans. Now they have caught up. Acceleration is evident.
      And what about the position of the Central countries in relation to the territorial integrity of Russia, then you should ask the author - does he remember how the negotiations took place in general?
      The Bolsheviks wanted a separate peace. Get out of the war. Although the Entente ignored this step, and continued to insist on the implementation of the Treaty of Alliance in the Entente.
      And on January 3 (n st) 1918, the UCR delegation was invited: its chairman Golubovich announced the Rada's declaration that the power of the Council of People's Commissars does not extend to Ukraine and that the Rada intends to independently conduct peace negotiations. Kühlmann (delegate from Germany) asked Trotsky whether the Rada delegation should be considered part of the Russian delegation or whether it represents an independent state. Trotsky replied that he recognizes the independence of the "Ukrainian delegation", specifying that Ukraine itself "is now in the process of its self-determination."
      Under the terms of the Brest Peace of March 1918, the RSFSR undertook one of the points to recognize
      recognize the Ukrainian People's Republic as an independent state with the withdrawal of troops from there.
      Already on November 11, the Entente forced Germany to abandon this treaty. and on November 13 it was liquidated by the Council of People's Commissars.
      How difficult it was. It was these all treaties and events that later influenced the fact that the USSR was quickly recognized (as a union of republics and not just Bolsheviks in Petrograd)
      and from February 1920, confessions poured in from neighbors and beyond.
      For the USSR, these agreements are also significant. And for the RF.
      In other words, for modern Ukraine, the interpretations of those who eventually suffered defeat in the First World War are extremely important. For information: Central Powers - Germany, Austria-Hungary, Ottoman Empire, Bulgarian Kingdom. It would be strange if these powers, who fought in WWI against Russia, supported its territorial integrity.

      for the birth of the USSR, these "interpretations" were important. For the UPR (and its follower / successor), Ukraine is also important, having historical significance.
      For the RF are just as important. For this is also its history and a turning point, and more than that, decisions were made on the territory of modern Russia (Petrograd). Both separate and concessions and recognition of the UPR.
  8. gx200gx
    gx200gx 15 November 2020 16: 26
    -1
    "Guys confidently went to success!" Have you tried to calculate the benefit from the "dumped" happiness, have become thoughtful, do we need such happiness?
  9. rocket757
    rocket757 15 November 2020 16: 34
    +1
    Little joys, little people ... let them, we don't care about that.
    1. cniza
      cniza 15 November 2020 17: 07
      +3
      Quote: rocket757
      Little joys, little people ... let them, we don't care about that.


      I would say small people are happy to find at least some kind of memory that they signed something ...
      1. rocket757
        rocket757 15 November 2020 17: 55
        +1
        What are all those signatures of LOSERS!
        Then, and even now, those pieces of paper are good only for .... purposeful use.
        1. cniza
          cniza 15 November 2020 17: 57
          +5
          This raises the question of why these documents ended up in Turkey, and most importantly how? ...
          1. rocket757
            rocket757 15 November 2020 18: 03
            0
            So they ran, the signers ran wherever they could ... by the way, because they perfectly understood that these pieces of paper would not save them ...
            1. cniza
              cniza 15 November 2020 18: 19
              +2
              That is, this is the original UNR? lol
              1. rocket757
                rocket757 15 November 2020 19: 04
                0
                Let the experts hope / test. There are also enough fakes ...
          2. Normal ok
            Normal ok 16 November 2020 00: 56
            -1
            Quote: cniza
            This raises the question of why these documents ended up in Turkey, and most importantly how? ...

            The Ottoman Empire in WWI was an ally of Germany and Austria. Accordingly, she was one of the signatories to the agreement. Accordingly, it had its own copy of the contract.
            PS. Colonel-General should be ashamed for his poor knowledge of the history of wars.
  10. TAMBU
    TAMBU 15 November 2020 16: 36
    +3
    In other words, for modern Ukraine, the interpretations of those who eventually suffered defeat in the First World War are extremely important.

    For an attempt to incite ethnic hatred, it is easy to forget that Russia can hardly be counted among the winners of the First World War ...
    1. Selenium
      Selenium 15 November 2020 16: 57
      +2
      Lost to the losing side. Of course she was dismembered. Payment for defeat.
  11. jaroff
    jaroff 15 November 2020 16: 42
    +4
    It was in the temporarily occupied territories of the Republic of Ingushetia by the troops of the central powers that the so-called. independent states Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania.
    Russia's withdrawal from the war, from the Entente, deprived Russia of victory in the war. Thus, he indirectly transferred her from the winners to the vanquished. For only the defeated empires disintegrated and new state formations appeared on their ruins.
  12. yfast
    yfast 15 November 2020 16: 46
    -1
    Quote: Avior
    Looked at the internet. I did not see any excitement.
    Along the way, I learned that a burial of a Scythian warrior 2500 years ago was found on Khortitsa. Height - 1,8 meters.
    So much for your undersized ancestors ..

    The caravan passed by, at night the locals were stabbed to death in everyday life, the locals on ribbons, the warrior was buried. Maybe it was a proto-African American.
    1. Niel-le-Calais
      Niel-le-Calais 15 November 2020 23: 02
      0
      Quote: yfast
      The caravan passed by, at night the locals were stabbed to death in everyday life, the locals were stabbed with ribbons, the warrior was buried

      the data refutes such a theory
      “The burial was made in an earthen catacomb about three meters deep. Our ancestors made great efforts to protect the burial from robbers, because the entrance to the catacombs was blocked by a large number of heavy granite boulders, ”said the reserve.
      And this is a burial with attributes. Who will spend money on this if the disassembly

      a 3-year-old man is buried in the catacomb, which is about 40 m deep. The deceased was tall for his time - about 180 cm.

      “The burial was made in a catacomb, that is, this is not an ordinary pit, but such an improvised underground building. One of the versions that scientists say that the Scythian catacombs are just a reproduction of a building in a dwelling, that is, a wagon, but underground. A warrior of great stature. He has good preservation of his teeth, that is, he is a man who ate well. He lived for many years. About 40 years. It will be more precisely known later. He had a quiver with arrows, which indicates that he was a warrior, "Nikonenko said.
  13. wow
    wow 15 November 2020 16: 49
    -2
    Thought gets richer ...! Or - when the dog has nothing else to do, she herself ... licks one place.
  14. parusnik
    parusnik 15 November 2020 16: 52
    +2
    The central powers then recognized the UPR as an independent state.
    The Brest-Litovsk agreement provided the UPR with German and Austro-Hungarian military assistance in pushing back Soviet forces from the Ukraine in February-April 1918. Soon, German and Austro-Hungarian troops invited by the Ukrainian government to fight Soviet Russia occupied almost the entire territory of the UPR.
  15. BAI
    BAI 15 November 2020 16: 54
    +1
    What did Turkey have to do with this treaty? Where did she get the original?
    1. boris epstein
      boris epstein 15 November 2020 17: 19
      +3
      She was an ally of Germany and Austria-Hungary, and even managed to badly bathe the Anglo-French fleet in an attempt to force the Dardanelles and throw off the British troops from the Gallipoli Peninsula. By the way, Winston Churchill was then Lord of the Admirate in Britain.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Niel-le-Calais
      Niel-le-Calais 15 November 2020 23: 17
      0
      Quote: BAI
      What did Turkey have to do with this treaty? Where did she get the original?

      The Ottoman archives contain many documents from Russia and Bulgaria. (It's easy to see why)
      the Ottoman archive, which has more than 90 million documents, contains a huge layer of Ukrainian studies - tens of thousands of documents. “Suddenly noticing information about the Brest-Litovsk Treaty in the list, the diplomats immediately asked for digitized versions of the unique find. And literally on the same day they received them, ”the diplomats inform.

      Now the question is what is the relation
      The full text of the BLD says that there were signatories and such
      From the Imperial Ottoman Government:
      His Highness Ibrahim Hakki Pasha, Former Grand Vizier, Senator, Ambassador of His Imperial Majesty the Sultan in Berlin, His Excellency General of the Cavalry, Adjutant of His Imperial Majesty Sultan Tseki Pasha,

      By the way, Bulgarians were there too ...
      Here are the secretaries of His Highness and brought one of 5 copies of the agreement (one for each side of the agreement) to the OI. Where it got into the Ottoman archive and was kept there.
      What a shame for me personally ... many things, documents, ships, airplanes in Russia are not saved at all .. What we do not store. Lost crying Well, we can't even store historical values.
      They even tried to break the tradition ... With the Varyag, for example .. it still didn't work out.
      Farman Nesterova too .. Ilya M / Russian Knight of Sikorsky .. At least one Imperial battleship .. Not a single battleship of Ushakov / Nakhimov ... not a single ship of the frigate Kornilov .. and the list goes on. Only somehow sad.
      I am very sorry that much of the historical heritage of Russia is best preserved outside of Russia ... and this is a tradition!
  16. Vladimir61
    Vladimir61 15 November 2020 17: 08
    +6
    Let them immediately ask for a letter to the Turkish Sultan! Useful for the future.
    The text of the letter does not allow censorship VO

  17. Alien From
    Alien From 15 November 2020 17: 12
    -1
    When a cat has nothing to do, he knows what he does ...
  18. iouris
    iouris 15 November 2020 17: 18
    0
    The province went to write ...
    And the excitement is in Ukraine.
  19. maktub
    maktub 15 November 2020 17: 25
    0
    I learned about the big "information boom" on VO laughing
    1. Niel-le-Calais
      Niel-le-Calais 15 November 2020 23: 32
      0
      Quote: maktub
      I learned about the big "information boom" on VO

      Thanks to VO, I learn EVERYTHING in Ukraine.
      What we think, what we want, what we do, what we want to do.
      The truth is somehow everything somehow comes down to the fact that we are Bandera and want evil Rossiyushke.
      It already brings teeth together all the time .. lol
      And this topic is no exception. I learned only from VO. And only then I saw a couple of articles .... stingy.
      On VO there is even more text. But as you can see, we must be in the "hype". Are you in a hype? laughing
      No? And there should be!
      It's amazing how in the modern world of the Internet you can easily write legends ...
      This topic would not have arisen if it were not for the concern of the Turks about special registers - defters.
      So they both took them in Constantinople and carried them so carefully preserved, multiplied, preserved. Turkish bureaucrats have saved a lot.
      And they were not prevented by natural disasters in Istanbul. No problem with aniline ink (released their own-durable). The collapse of the OI and the transition to the republic did not prevent them either.
      The archive is currently open to foreign researchers. The archive provides very comfortable working conditions. Some of the documents have been transferred to the electronic catalog in the archive database (in particular, acts of the 15th – 17th centuries), which makes it convenient to work with them. Nevertheless, according to estimates of some Turkish researchers, by now only about 20% of Ottoman documents have been discovered and described. The remaining 80% are still in the vaults of the Ottoman Archives under the Prime Minister's Office and remain practically undescribed and inaccessible to researchers. Thus, the Turkish archives have just begun to open their funds and publish inventories of previously unknown documents.
      There are many unexplored documents from Russia.
      1. maktub
        maktub 15 November 2020 23: 52
        -1
        Do not be nervous and do not spoil the enamel on your teeth, look at all the statements giggling. At first I also tried to prove something to the "especially stubborn" - not a gratifying thing!
        There are also serious, adequate "guys" specialists with whom it is interesting to talk
  20. Freeman
    Freeman 15 November 2020 17: 55
    +3
    Quote: askort154
    It seems that the Ukrainians decided not only to buy UAVs from them, but also to fraternize with the Turks at the genetic level. Soon they will find documents, as the Turks took away ukrodevushki to the full, and they gave birth to ukroturchat there. As a result, Turks and Ukrainians are blood brothers. fellow

    Yes, such documents have long been known. Remember the same Roksolana, the mother of the Turkish Sultan Selim II.
    Historians suggest that Roksolana had "roots" in the territory of present-day Ukraine.
    And her son, Sultan Selim II, is known by the nickname "Selim the drunkard" - well, a true Ukrainian. wassat lol
    Based on this, Ukraine can claim the territory of Turkey. wassat
    1. Niel-le-Calais
      Niel-le-Calais 15 November 2020 23: 45
      -1
      Quote: Freeman
      Historians suggest that Roksolana had "roots" in the territory of present-day Ukraine.

      There are no reliable facts.
      Samuil Tvardovsky wrote that the Turks told him that Roksolana was the daughter of an Orthodox priest from Rohatyn (now in Ivano-Frankivsk region, Ukraine). This is the Rzecz Pospolita at that time.
      Bernardo Navagzero called Alexandra Anastasia Lisowska Russian: "[donna] ... di nazione russa"
      Ogierm Giselin de Busbeck also called her from the lands of the Republic of Poland (Roksolania - from Strabo) and it was he who invented her European name, Roksolana.
      So a fifteen year old girl could be Polish / Ukrainian / Russian / Jewish / etc ..
      And Selim's bad heredity
      So out of 5 sons (from a fertile female), Selim lived the longest and he was strangled already in Persia.
      In the Ottoman Empire itself, Sultan Selim received the nickname "The Drunkard" because of the abuse of wine, but he was not a drunkard in the literal sense of the word. Thanks to a certain Portuguese who contributed to the drunkenness of the Sultan. Although he drank less than Pyotr Mikhailovich. But as soon as not called.
      Antichrist, for example, but Natalia's inheritance has nothing to do with it.
      Quote: Freeman
      And her son, Sultan Selim II, is known by the nickname "Selim the drunkard" - well, a true Ukrainian

      That is, heredity from Suleiman is good, but from the mother is bad.
      But at least thanks for the recognition of Khyurrem Ukrainian. And then there is so much controversy ..
  21. Vasilenko Vladimir
    Vasilenko Vladimir 15 November 2020 17: 56
    -1
    Well, why are our menzhayutsya? !!!
    What then did Skoropadsky control ?!
    land under your stool, urgently convene a conference and noise within the borders of the territory controlled by the Hetman ?!
  22. fa2998
    fa2998 15 November 2020 18: 04
    +2
    Quote: Niel-le-Calais
    at the presidential level back in 2003, and in 2004 this treaty was ratified by the parliaments.

    So ask WHO was then the president and members of parliament for such a jamb. The treaty that the Ukrainians boast about (allegedly we were a sovereign state), it was Moscow that allocated 5 (five) provinces (regions) under the UPR. Which is about 50% of modern Ukraine ...
  23. tovarich-andrey.62goncharov
    tovarich-andrey.62goncharov 15 November 2020 18: 11
    0
    Be afraid! It will not help you in any scenario and in any case. "An ear from a herring" ... The revolutionary miners of Donbass will wipe their feet on this "bamazhka"!
  24. O. Bender
    O. Bender 15 November 2020 19: 22
    -3
    And why is it written with errors on the spread, there are two dots in the whole word above the second letter, but there should be one. not?
  25. Imobile
    Imobile 15 November 2020 19: 23
    0
    So we know without these documents that the Bolsheviks, and then the RSFSR, gave them a lot
  26. Machete
    Machete 15 November 2020 20: 30
    -1
    And what will change from that?

    Require territory?
    Or dough?

    And where do Ukrainian originals come from in Turkey?
  27. cat Rusich
    cat Rusich 15 November 2020 20: 51
    +1
    And when will they find "a letter from the Zaporozhye Cossacks to the Turkish Sultan" in the Turkish archives?
    Cossacks write a letter to the Turkish Sultan
    smile
  28. Lord of the Sith
    Lord of the Sith 15 November 2020 21: 30
    -4
    As the boys with the settlers were slaves of the Turks, they remained))
  29. Николаев
    Николаев 15 November 2020 22: 05
    +2
    I live in Ukraine. In general, not with an ear, not a snout about this slapstick. That ragulieu is probably masturbating for broodershaft)
    1. barin
      barin 16 November 2020 09: 05
      -1
      And I live in Ukraine. It's strange, we only talk about this
  30. Unemployed
    Unemployed 16 November 2020 00: 11
    -1
    Quote: Niel-le-Calais
    Muslims rarely rape women in the occupied territories. But they were taken prisoner.

    They took away. And what did they do with them in captivity? They bathed in champagne, or is it ...?
  31. bukhach
    bukhach 16 November 2020 00: 22
    -2
    Quote: Niel-le-Calais
    Runet tends to ascribe a lot of Russophile Bismarck

    Only from you did I learn about Bismarck's Russophilia, and hackneyed truths about his Germanness, etc., have long been known to everyone who knows at least a little history.
  32. tolmachiev51
    tolmachiev51 16 November 2020 04: 46
    0
    Well, I really want to be "great" !!!
  33. Viktor Sergeev
    Viktor Sergeev 16 November 2020 08: 17
    -1
    Well, how important is the recognition of the master for slaves. Slave nature climbs out of the crest.
  34. Max Lebedev
    Max Lebedev 16 November 2020 12: 38
    -1
    I still do not understand - is it peremog or zrada?
  35. orionvitt
    orionvitt 16 November 2020 12: 57
    0
    "thousands of pages of Ukrainian studies"
    And what? Someone suffered outright bullshit, and sane people now have to accept it as "historical documents". We remember very well how this circus and these children's games with the UNR ended. And now the heir to that circus is another circus, with new clowns, called modern Ukraine. Nothing has changed, the same madhouse. And the result will be natural, that is, the complete collapse of "Ukrainianship" as a kind of ideology for especially narrow-minded (to put it mildly) representatives of humanity. As modern practice shows, any political statement or action of Ukraine is frankly outside the boundaries of common sense, somewhere in the field of pathological schizophrenia.
  36. Andrey Vasilievich
    Andrey Vasilievich 16 November 2020 21: 21
    0
    Quote: Normal ok
    Quote: AlexGa
    Kindergarten, you might think that there are no other problems.

    It's funny that I learn about this "problem" (and earlier about similar ones) not from the Ukrainian media, but from the authors of VO (often anonymous). It seems that the authors of VO search hundreds of tertiary Internet resources to find some "fried" fact and pass it off as the agenda of the neighbors.

    And indeed, where do they get this "hot news" from? Does anyone from Ukraine know about this?
  37. vavilon
    vavilon 16 November 2020 22: 46
    0
    It is necessary to recognize and follow this agreement and return the entire southeast of Ukraine to its native harbor.
  38. Sergey Oreshin
    Sergey Oreshin 17 November 2020 09: 09
    0
    Quote: Avior
    but the fact that the delegation of the RSFSR recognized the UPR as an independent state.

    Not certainly in that way. The Russian delegation at the end of 1917 did not object to the participation of the Ukrainian delegation in the peace negotiations.
    But already in January 1918, the Russian delegation announced that the UPR did not de facto control the territory of Ukraine, including the capital Kiev, and demanded that the Central Powers admit the delegation of Soviet Ukraine to peace negotiations. However, the Germans refused.
  39. Egor53
    Egor53 17 November 2020 11: 58
    -3
    It’s interesting, and in what boundaries then Ukraine as a country was recognized. I think that then Ukraine had less territory than it is now.
    1. Sergey Oreshin
      Sergey Oreshin 17 November 2020 13: 53
      0
      It depends on what Ukraine is, there were a lot of them in the years of the Civil War))
      At the end of the 17th, the RSFSR recognized the Ukrainian Soviet Republic within the boundaries of the Poltava, Chernigov, Kiev, Podolsk and Volyn provinces, and also transferred the Taganrog district of the Don Army Region to it. Kharkiv, part of the Yekaterinoslav and Kherson provinces were part of the DKSR, most of the Kherson, part of the Podolsk and Bessarabian provinces - in the Odessa Soviet Republic, the districts of Northern Tavria - in the SSR of Taurida (the last three republics were part of the RSFSR).

      In 1918, the Central Powers (and de facto the RSFSR) recognized the Ukrainian State as part of Kharkov, Yekaterinoslav, Kherson, Poltava, Chernigov, Kiev, Podolsk, Volyn, Kholmsk provinces + northern districts of Taurida province, half of the Kursk province and about a third of Voronezh province + some districts of Grodno and Minsk provinces.

      In 1919 the RSFSR recognized the Ukrainian SSR within the boundaries of Kharkov, Yekaterinoslav, Kherson, Poltava, Chernigov, Kiev, Podolsk, Volyn provinces + districts of Northern Tavria.
      In 1921, according to the Peace of Riga, the Ukrainian SSR transferred part of the Volyn province to Poland, and from the RSFSR it received a part of the Kursk province and some districts of the former Oblast of the Don Army.

      This is in short, but everything was very difficult there and you can write a whole monograph