Military Review

"Pershing-2" at minimum wages

141
About a year and a half ago, when the Americans were withdrawing from the INF Treaty (INF Treaty), the author of these lines, arguing about what future American medium-range missiles could be, realizing that the Americans had almost no real developments in this area, made a number assumptions. Some were done in earnest, and some more as a joke. It was all the more surprising to be convinced that in some jokes the grain of truth is such that even for a fraction of the joke there is no room left in them.


Except "Tomahawk" - no miracles


You and I remember what the Americans' "powerful response" was in the field of INF Treaty. First, there was a one-time launch of the Tomahawk long-range naval missile system from the part of the launch module, which was very handicraftly bolted to the trailer. naval installation of vertical launch Mk.41. This prediction was made, but it was not difficult to make it - the United States has nothing else for its niche ground-based medium-range missile systems, only non-nuclear "Tomahawks" (nuclear charges and the nuclear "Indian axes" themselves have long been dead, and new ones to take nowhere). True, it was assumed that at least some semblance of a normal launcher, the Americans would deign to give birth, fortunately, it's not so difficult. But they limited themselves to "collective farm tuning" Mk.41 on the trailer, as the hero of one cartoon said - "and so it will do!"

Not surprisingly, Lockheed-Martin won a $ 339 million contract for the US Army to create a mobile launcher (it is not specified whether it will be the American favorite, but a non-functional version with a semi-trailer, or a self-propelled launcher), for which should integrate by 2023 the Tomahawk marine cruise missiles, which, by the way, are produced not by this corporation, but by Raytheon. Moreover, the missiles should be integrated without changes - this is especially emphasized. Although at one time, a number of nuances forced the Americans to develop their own version of the "Tomahawk" for ground complexes - I wonder why it is not so now? Saving? It is also unknown whether one of the existing US Army launchers will be adapted or modified, or a new one created. But it should be assumed that no one will try to integrate "Tomahawks" into MLRS MLRS or HIMARS, so the launcher will most likely be new, and it will probably be a semi-trailer with a much more refined version of the Mk.41 module.

With the feet of the Houthis


Much more surprised by the choice in the same contract of a ballistic missile. Again they decided to use a naval missile and also, as emphasized, without changes. At one time, the author made a half-joking assumption that, out of hopelessness, the Americans could choose to create an MRBM based on the SM-3 Block 2A anti-missile, of course, only non-nuclear. Tests of what was passed off as a "prototype of the IRBM" showed that, contrary to the statements of the Russian Foreign Ministry, the United States had nothing really useful in the IRBM area either - then they simply launched a target missile from the launch pad based on the -x solid fuel accelerator. Of course, this homemade missile is about the same as from an electric scooter - a participant in the Formula 50 races.

The Americans, in the end, went about the predicted path, but did even worse - they did not create an MRBM based on the SM-3 Block 1A, they took the newest anti-aircraft missile SM-6 SAM used in the same Aegis air defense system! Moreover, there will be practically no changes in the design. And this is where it gets really interesting. The fact is that the weight of this missile is only 1500 kg, that is, more than half that of the Iskander-M missile launcher, which officially has a radius of no more than 500 km. But let us leave alone the quasi-ballistic maneuvering Iskander 9M723-1 and its other modifications - nevertheless, this is a missile, originally designed for maneuvering in all sections of the trajectory, and created "for growth." The missile's potential, according to rough estimates, allows it to fly at a range 2 times more than its "official" one until the INF Treaty terminates, even without refusing to maneuver along the trajectory. And it carries a warhead of considerable weight - from half a ton and more, except, of course, the thermonuclear, with which it must fly even further.

"Pershing-2" at minimum wages
SAM SM-6 (RIM-174 ERAM) and, at the same time, the future MRBM. Looks like it? Yes, somehow not particularly

But the Americans are counting on the fact that the SM-6 will fly away for 1000 km! With a weight of 1,5 tons, a warhead weighing just over 100 kg - is this even possible? Well, the SAM itself has a range for air targets of the order of 240-250 km (there are other figures, but advertising is advertising). For surface targets, it claims a range of up to 450 km - the attack mode against ground and / or surface targets is available for many SAMs and SAMs, including ours. By reducing the weight of the warhead (to the minimum values ​​for centering), abandoning the seeker, when converting the missile into a target missile, it is possible to achieve an increase in the range of 2-3 times, but not always.

Yemeni Houthis (read "vacationers" of the Aerospace Forces, AKS, IRGC, who help solve "missile issues" there), converting old Soviet missiles from the C-75M, from the C-125M into tactical missiles, achieve ranges of up to 125-150 for them km. Of course, by reducing the weight of the warhead. But how do the Americans want to achieve a range of over 1000 km for the SM-6? Reducing the weight of the warhead from a completely undignified 110 kg to 20 kg? What for? What tasks can such a product solve? Even if the Americans adapt the controlled unit there, which is created for the AGM-183 aeroballistic missile (and so far, in the form of even an experimental product, neither the rocket itself, nor the load on it), judging by the dimensions, it will be just about the same weight - so even if so, there will be little sense from such a "MRBM". There is no nuclear ammunition and is not expected, especially with such a warhead, a conventional warhead of this weight will be able to solve an extremely limited set of tasks. This is even if we forget that the accuracy of a maneuvering or gliding combat unit is much more difficult to ensure, in fact, than usual. And there is also such a thing as the speed of the missile defense system, it is about 3.5M, which is not enough for an MRBM and even for an MRMD. Although, if you lighten the rocket, the speed, of course, will increase, but hardly dramatically.


SM-6 and SM-3

Searching for meaning


So why such a product? To "inexpensively" adopt the "MRBM" and proudly report on it? While there will still create an MRBM with normal capabilities, for which, too, except for presentations, so far there is nothing real - but for now we will "threaten the Swede" with these incomplete products. More precisely, to Putin and Xi Jinping - they will definitely be scared!

In addition, the unified naval launcher is, nevertheless, of some kind. True, it has not yet been created, but it’s something, and it’s not so difficult to do. In addition, there is another aspect. By 2024-2025 An improved version of the SM-6, the SM-6 Block 1, will be created, where the starting booster from the SM-3 Block 2A anti-missile missile will be used. This SAM will have a large mass and a long range, and a high speed - about 5M. Here it is, while reducing the weight of the warhead, abandoning the seeker and other modifications, it is quite possible to launch it as a ballistic missile at a distance of more than 1000 km. One "but" - the US Army is waiting for a product not on its base, and a couple of years earlier. I wonder what will happen in the end - the customer will understand that his requirements are overstated, and he will be convinced that he needs to accept it as it is, and then, for additional funds and time, get something similar to what he wants? Maybe. However, questions about the suitability of such an under-MRBM, which should be called "Pershing-2" at minimum settings, "as they say on the Internet, for real combat work, of course, persist.
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  1. mark1
    mark1 16 November 2020 05: 22
    14
    Only one thing is not clear - why did they (the Americans) have to leave the INF Treaty without having "nichrome" in their hearts? Something is wrong here, the "Tomahawks" and SAMs alone would not have prompted them to such hasty actions.
    1. Avior
      Avior 16 November 2020 05: 50
      +5
      They cannot develop medium-range missiles without this due to the ban on such developments in the treaty.
      1. mark1
        mark1 16 November 2020 06: 11
        +7
        What are our highly moral and highly moral partners! It turns out that their upbringing did not allow them ...
        But usually the first of the contracts come out already having something behind the soul, some kind of promising perspective
        1. Avior
          Avior 16 November 2020 08: 34
          +8
          Not education, but a political system. They cannot do it secretly, since Democrats and Republicans are watching how to plunge each other into the mud more strongly, and they have real opportunities for this.
        2. military_cat
          military_cat 16 November 2020 10: 26
          +3
          Quote: mark1
          But usually the first of the contracts come out already having something behind the soul, some kind of promising perspective
          There are two ways to interpret observations. The first is in accordance with Bayes' theorem: "each new observation of a phenomenon corrects and complements our understanding of it"... The second is according to the cognitive bias "confirmation bias": "each new observation of a phenomenon is interpreted in such a way as to confirm and not change our already existing understanding of it"... Which one to choose - everyone decides for himself.
    2. bayard
      bayard 16 November 2020 07: 14
      17
      The author did not take into account one point that the United States may be counting on - they now have a "ultra-low-yield" nuclear weapon, which is made on a different isotope (not plutonium-239 and not uranium-235), this, if memory serves, America. Its critical mass is quite small and it seems that it is this isotope that they have learned to receive. In any case, they talked about this, and it seems that it was precisely such ammunition that was used in the port of Beirut by the Israelis (statements by Trump, Italians, and indeed many Israelis ... but unofficially). If a warhead with such an isotope will have such a modest weight, as they say about it, then the use of a long-range anti-aircraft missile as its carrier is quite justified. Moreover, in this case, it will be possible to use such a missile not only from land, but also from sea carriers, and this, in the light of preparations for a war with China, is a very valuable option. After all, this is not a subsonic Tomahawk, which Chinese aviation can shoot down at least in hundreds on the sea surface with target designations from its new AWACS aircraft.
      And in general, I would warn against throwing the caps of our sarcasm on the Americans, not so long ago they possessed all the necessary competencies to create such (MRBM) missiles, developments, drawings, prototypes, and they also had the specialists involved before.
      And unlike us, they have money for these projects. And they are not threatened with sanctions from foreign suppliers of the radio component base, like our defense industry complex (which has already "torn everyone up for ten to fifteen years in advance").
      The United States has a very good stealthy missile launcher with a range of up to 1000 km. , which is preparing a modification with an increased range. These missiles are even capable of carrying tactical aircraft, moreover, several pieces each, B-1B is 24 pieces. only on the internal suspension, and in fact it can also pick up on external nodes.
      The United States is still a very serious adversary, and the fact that for the past couple of decades it has rested on the laurels of a winner in the Cold War, having abandoned many promising programs, does not yet say that it will not be able to catch up.
      Will be able .
      Unless something extraordinary happens.
      Modern Russia is not even capable of resuming the construction of the post-war An-2 today!
      We still don't have heavy and reconnaissance-strike drones! The first set of the prototype for military tests does not say anything and does not do the weather.
      Look what problems we have with the development and launch of the "5th generation aircraft" Su-57!
      In the aircraft industry as a whole, especially in the civilian and military transport "division"!
      These are not just "individual difficulties of a temporary nature", they are systemic problems of the defense industry, industry and the economy as a whole! And first of all - as a state administration AT ALL (!) Levels.
      That is why, rather than throwing hats at the "stupid Americans", you need to pay more attention to your "mote in the eye" and solve your problems.
      We can joke here that in the segment of medium-range missiles the United States now has nothing but the Tomahawk ... So we also have nothing but Caliber.
      If the "Zircon" flies to a distance of 1000 km. and will be adopted ... but in what time frame, in what quantity will our defense industry be able to supply these missiles to the Navy? So far, we are talking only about the Navy, although the land, and even more so the air version of this product is highly desirable.
      Someone will add - "there is also" Dagger ".
      Yes it is, but how many? In addition, it is tied to airfields - this is both a plus and a minus at the same time.
      There were rumors about the preparation of an MRBM, which has an Iskander engine as the first stage and the same Dagger as the second stage, even pictures were published. A good idea in addition to "Daggers", but this miracle will probably not appear soon.
      So we ourselves have nothing to boast about in this segment (MRBM).
      But we need to work on this.
      For the same China has this "good" ... like a fool of candy wrappers ... that is, heaps. Enough for both the Americans and us.
      The Russian Federation is a continental power that borders on many troubled countries and regions. And we need a LOT of such missiles.
      Just that it was enough, if anything.
      But here ... the economy of the Russian Federation ... that ... Look, the financial genius Siluanov proposes to reduce the Army by 10%!
      And raise the retirement age for them!
      And training in a military university is not taken into account in the experience!
      Are we with the USA today before pulling-pulling with such hands?
      Whose military budget is 15 times ours?
      Until now, "Sarmat" has not taken off with us! Although the journalists so accustomed the hamsters to the idea that they are just about that they are SURE that he already ... is ...
      Until it takes off, then it will be tested and FINALLY THAT ... the long-awaited "Sarmat" will be adopted ... until we set up the serial assembly of the Il-76MD90A and at least rise into the sky in an acceptable weight form of the Il-112 ... the Americans may well have an airborne aeroballistic missile (analogue of the "Dagger"), and an MRBM based on a heavy missile defense system with an ultra-low-power nuclear warhead, and something else, for which the groundwork was made back in the 80s - 90s.
      And China will become very strong.
      And we will be left ... with a Rogozin "trampoline" and unused hats ...
      Things need to be looked at soberly.
      And do something about the economy.
      And finance.
      And with the "Budget Rule" !!!
      And with quality management.
      1. KCA
        KCA 16 November 2020 08: 09
        +5
        Why did you drag americium? Its cost is 140 per gram, can you imagine how much a charge of even reduced power from americium will cost? Let the critical mass of 000 kilograms be 5 million. California has a critical mass of 700 kg in general, but also a price of 2.7 million per gram. Everything is simpler, they cut old charges and make reduced ones. And why besides "Caliber" we have nothing? And "Onyxes" which are ALREADY on mobile installations, with an undisclosed range, but they also write about 250 km
        1. bayard
          bayard 16 November 2020 08: 57
          +4
          There were persistent rumors about this America, and a number of publications. The fact that the price was high then was out of the question, in the end, if there is a technology for separating from spent fuel, then when the case is put on stream, the price may decrease by a couple of orders of magnitude.
          And I did not assert, but, referring to the publications of recent years, made an assumption.
          And the United States should have radiochemical capacities in the coming years; this jamb will not last forever.
          The fact is that the author very correctly noticed that it will not work to obtain such (over 1000 km) range of this missile defense system with a conventional warhead, and there is no point in reducing it at all - the rocket itself is expensive, and the effect of exposure (even with the highest accuracy ) will be ... small. And Americans know how to count money. Therefore, such (just such) is possible ONLY with a special warhead. Even with a detonator from an old warhead.
          1. KCA
            KCA 16 November 2020 09: 20
            0
            I read about americium, but only Russia can produce it from spent nuclear fuel at BN-600 and BN-800, in the future at BN-1200 (and, I think, it does this, since TVELs with the addition of spent nuclear fuel have already begun to be loaded into BN- 800), no country has more industrial RBNs, for 30 years you should not be afraid of the appearance of RBNs in the United States
            1. bayard
              bayard 16 November 2020 09: 58
              +7
              In principle, they also have plutonium from the dismantled warheads, but it needs to be processed / cleaned from the transuranium elements accumulated during storage, and the capacities for this have not yet been built - this has led to scandals in Congress. But I think in the coming years they will launch them (capacities).
              And about americium it will be necessary to refresh knowledge, the last time I read a couple of years ago.
              1. DrEng527
                DrEng527 18 November 2020 17: 43
                -1
                Quote: bayard
                during storage of transuranic elements

                this is americium ... bully
        2. SovAr238A
          SovAr238A 16 November 2020 12: 25
          +3
          Quote: KCA
          And "Onyxes" which are ALREADY on mobile installations, with an undisclosed range, but they also write about 1000 km

          At first, Onyxes were 300, then the jingoistic patriots added another 200 to them and brought them up to 500, then "brought" to 800, now up to 1000 km ...
          And all this was done in words by "hurray-patriots".

          Because there are no prerequisites for getting a 300-kilometer rocket out of a 1000 km rocket - except for blowing bubbles into picking the nose - there is simply no! Not in nature. not in science ...
          1. KCA
            KCA 16 November 2020 12: 56
            0
            You are confusing, "Onyxes" have never been with a range of 300 km, these are "Yakhonts", the export version flew 300 km due to restrictions under the missile technology control regime
            1. SovAr238A
              SovAr238A 16 November 2020 14: 35
              +3
              Quote: KCA
              You are confusing, "Onyxes" have never been with a range of 300 km, these are "Yakhonts", the export version flew 300 km due to restrictions under the missile technology control regime

              I am not confused, I have been interested in the topic for almost 40 years.

              And before my eyes, all this increase was ...
              But always in this vein "with an undisclosed range, but they also write about 1000 km" ...

              Not a single person who understands what a rocket is, what its layout is, how the internal volumes are located and what equipment and assemblies they are filled with will never say that 1000 km and 300 is one rocket, if we take specifically about Onyx.
              If specifically about Onyx - then tell us all, how was it limited to 300 kilometers?
              1. KCA
                KCA 16 November 2020 16: 22
                0
                And as on all export missiles, both cruise and ballistic, they limit the range of 300 km, and we and the Americans, they even sell axes with a range of 300 km to the British, ask the rocket engineers
      2. Ros 56
        Ros 56 16 November 2020 08: 17
        -13 qualifying.
        Well, just crying Yaroslavna. Everything we have is not so and not that way, one continuous frustration. Maybe stop whining. It would be all bad, long ago, striped something would have been thrown off your head. By the way, somebody saw this thing of ultra-low power live or, as usual, striped show-off. State elections have opened their eyes to many people.
        1. bayard
          bayard 16 November 2020 09: 23
          12
          And what have the elections and open eyes of citizens?
          This is one of the most promising US developments based on existing carriers and their elements. They realized it really late, well, before that, they had not seen their opponents. And then China has overtaken its economy, the fleet is building at a rate 4 times higher than in the United States, it is strengthening the army, and it has led economic expansion. Well, we - Russia to them (the USA) have been curtailing their blood lately - we are breaking plans. Moreover, they began to demonstrate intensively new types of weapons ... So they caught themselves. Therefore, they are in a hurry and order new missiles based on existing samples and technologies in order to catch up and save money.
          But they have money for these ambitions.
          And Russia has ... the Budget Rule. The absence of its own emission center and, as a consequence, the inability to lend to its own business. Everything was at the mercy of foreign banks. And they are sanctions to us.
          Quote: Ros 56
          It would be all bad, long ago, striped something would have been thrown off your head.

          A lot of things flew into our heads. And American too.
          I live in Donetsk.
          Russian citizen .
          Born in the RSFSR from Russian parents.
          Soviet reserve officer.
          Quote: Ros 56
          By the way, has anyone seen this ultra-low-power thing?

          Watch footage of the explosion in the port of Beirut, and get an idea of ​​the "ultra-low" power of such ammunition.
          In the USSR, such ammunition is even 152 mm. managed to equip a projectile. I'm not talking about 203 mm. "Malke", which was created just for shooting like that. And almost every Soviet anti-aircraft missile system had its own specials. Warhead with a capacity of about 5 kt. So there is nothing new in low / ultra-low power ammunition - they just returned to what was already there.
          It's just that for the missile indicated in the article as an MRBM, only this will be justified. And they have just tested and adopted them.
          Quote: Ros 56
          Well, just crying Yaroslavna.

          Yes, without tears of sarcasm and grotesque in the voice, it's hard to talk about real achievements.
          Did you serve in the army?
          How long ago and in what capacity?
          To judge the order of things in our defense industry and the Armed Forces, one must know them from the inside, understand the essence of the issue (even if the same article) and look at the issues comprehensively.
          Not everything is bad with us.
          But there is not much good either. More and more PR, window dressing and bravura marches.
          1. Ros 56
            Ros 56 16 November 2020 10: 47
            -9
            How do you like striped ass lick, lick, it's your choice.
            But I don’t need to plant containers-bars here. A couple of your comments are enough for me to understand who is worth what. On this we can finish and no need to strain anymore, no need to write any crap.
            1. bayard
              bayard 16 November 2020 14: 56
              +7
              The uryakalka smiled ...
              I had these striped opponents back in the Cold War.
              The enemy was a worthy, serious opponent, but we were a match. Since then, I have got used to treating the enemy, and even more so the enemy - seriously. The enemy must be known, studied, understood how he thinks, what he can, what he is ready for.
              "War is not who will shoot whom. War is who will change his mind" ("And the dawns here are quiet").
              What do you, young man, know about combat control?
              At least on a scale ... parts, connections?
              To talk about serious things, you need to know them.
              1. Ros 56
                Ros 56 17 November 2020 07: 54
                -3
                It is not necessary to state the common truths with a clever look, there are things that will be higher than the combat control of a separate unit.
                And for the young man, thanks, they did not call that for 50 years.
                1. Kart
                  Kart 17 November 2020 17: 27
                  -4
                  There was such a popular meme - "officer's daughter".
                  Now a new feature is the "Soviet officer". There have been a lot of these lately.
                  "Born in the RSFSR, served" (as a rule, commanded) - how can one not believe this.
                  And they write like a carbon copy, almost word-for-word.
                  Nothing, the caravan is going anyway. And these fighters against Putin will get to know.
                  1. bayard
                    bayard 17 November 2020 19: 31
                    +1
                    There is such a popular meme as paid bots.
                    There is one more - uryakalki.
                    In essence, can you object to something?
                    I stated my position, and without a carbon copy.
                    Object if you can.
                    1. Vale-90
                      Vale-90 17 November 2020 21: 36
                      0
                      And there is. Life truth.
                      1. bayard
                        bayard 17 November 2020 21: 49
                        0
                        How scary it is to live in the era of electronic totalitarianism.
                        hi
      3. stalki
        stalki 16 November 2020 08: 19
        -9
        And the author does not throw hats on anyone, he quite objectively, in his own style, described and suggested. And you don't have to look for dirt about us right away where there is none. Eternal companions of depressants "the economy is bad", "managers ... but", "no power", etc. I would look at the Americans ... if they were in our place, under constant pressure from the surrounding states. How would they get out, I think that they did not immediately, or maybe just do, disappeared into oblivion. The most important thing is that we can where others are not given. This is a Russian talent and you cannot wear it out. Let them catch up if they can. Nobody asked them to aim missiles at us. Eternal thieves and rascals. They sit behind a puddle and shit wherever they swim. Their democracy is just a form of robbery, including their own people. They are locusts that leave nothing behind. And we will always have something to answer. We must not forget that we are also participants in the FIA, but at the same time we took care of our potential in this case in advance.
        1. bayard
          bayard 16 November 2020 09: 49
          +7
          Yes, of course, we can do a lot, especially invent / design, especially on the Soviet basis. I wrote about this too. Only our economy and industry, especially in the radio component base ... are not strong ... and in many other things.
          And besides the United States, another monster is growing by leaps and bounds on the planet, which has a full MRBM, and the economy is already the first in the world, and the pace of development. And they border on us. And we are not at all an ally - so, a temporary companion on the way to the desired hegemony.
          And without a strong and balanced economy, without a sovereign financial system, we cannot withstand any race with the United States or China. Therefore, the fact that we overtook them in new weapons while they were catching crows, but as long as we take these weapons into service, as a rule, not shaky or badly, they will be able to completely level this gap. Therefore, the enemy must be treated soberly and seriously, and geopolitical ambitions must be backed up by an industrial and economic basis.
          And they are most likely developing these missiles just for low-power / ultra-low-power nuclear warheads, otherwise (for an ordinary light warhead) it is not justified either economically or by the possible damage from striking such. They have been talking a lot about these warheads lately, and they are making big plans for them.
          1. The eye of the crying
            The eye of the crying 16 November 2020 10: 17
            +2
            Quote: bayard
            And now, without a strong and balanced economy, without a sovereign financial system, we cannot withstand any race with the United States or China.


            Even with a strong economy, you cannot win. Because they are many times larger (China is even an order of magnitude larger).
            1. bayard
              bayard 16 November 2020 14: 43
              +3
              Given the availability of nuclear weapons and reliable means of delivery, it is enough for us to limit our ambitions to reasonable sufficiency. It is not parity in all types of weapons that is important here, but the ability to guarantee the destruction of the enemy and the readiness to destroy him if necessary.
              1. The eye of the crying
                The eye of the crying 16 November 2020 14: 50
                +1
                In the post I replied to, you were talking about "winning the race" and not about guaranteed destruction (possible now).
                1. bayard
                  bayard 16 November 2020 15: 40
                  +3
                  I spoke about the possibility of running this very race.
                  Even to acquire a level of reasonable sufficiency, it is necessary to have a balanced Armed Forces, the necessary range and quality of means of defense and attack. And this requires an ECONOMY. And all the branches necessary for this.
                  Now we do not have this in full and we are not in a hurry to eliminate the shortcomings; in the defense industry, optionality (carelessness), bungling and outright sabotage are flourishing. With the complete irresponsibility of the guilty and the untouchability of the "responsible".
                  You can win the race by the quality of weapons with a reasonably sufficient quantity, and not by a linear answer to quantity for quantity - we have already gone through this.
          2. Griffit
            Griffit 16 November 2020 15: 26
            0
            The geographical position of these countries must be taken into account. And if the human and industrial potential of Russia is small but it is scattered over a large area, then in China and the United States it is concentrated along the coast. Therefore, they are afraid to openly attack, since in response, most of their potential is quickly destroyed by nuclear weapons.
            1. bayard
              bayard 16 November 2020 23: 42
              0
              It is both taken into account and always taken into account.
              Therefore, the scarecrow with "Poseidon" was started, because they are vulnerable from this.
          3. D16
            D16 16 November 2020 23: 01
            +1
            And they are most likely developing these missiles for low-power / ultra-low-power nuclear warheads,

            W76-2 with a capacity of 5-6 ktn are removed from ICBM Trident D5, on them after "castration" laughing are installed. Their weight cannot differ from the W76, since this will affect the ballistic qualities of the blocks. There is no talk of any installation of them in promising RSM. They have their own standard carriers. Our Foreign Ministry turned out to be fundamentally wrong, believing that the amers have some groundwork. But raising the rates to the level: "either you destroy the P-500, or we are withdrawing from the contract" turned out to be a complete bluff. Now they started throwing about How to make RSD quickly and preferably free of charge, since they counted on our deflection and no one planned to allocate money for RSD. The attempt to make it out of SM-6 is due to two reasons:
            1. Best option among others.
            2. Launched from Mk-41, that is, theoretically can be launched from ships.
            They have been talking a lot about these warheads lately, and they are making big plans for them.

            Well, of course. That is why they are dragging through the nuclear arsenals freeze treaty. Probably the stone flower does not come out lol .
            otherwise (under a conventional light warhead) it is not justified either economically or by the possible damage from striking such.

            More economically unjustified was the fact that they withdrew from the DRMSD and faced the fact of the need to quickly create a completely unnecessary ground-based RSD.
            1. bayard
              bayard 17 November 2020 00: 31
              0
              Quote: D16
              W76. There is no talk of any installation of them in promising RSM.

              It's not just about this warhead. If there is a possibility of using nuclear warhead detonators as a low-power charge, then they can try to take them from other warheads already removed from their carriers and from other types of warheads. But this is of course theoretically and from a BIG need, in which I absolutely agree with you.


              Quote: D16
              ... Our Foreign Ministry turned out to be fundamentally wrong, believing that the amers have some groundwork.

              I think this is more likely a reinsurance of our General Staff, and the Foreign Ministry only announced it. It was he who provided intelligence and background information.
              Quote: D16
              Now they started throwing about How to make RSD quickly and preferably free of charge, since they counted on our deflection and no one planned to allocate money for RSD.

              I think that apart from the expectation of our deflection, they had in mind primarily China. To fight against the growing Asian monster with Tomahawks alone is somehow not very reliable ... and not very convincing.
              Quote: D16
              They have been talking a lot about these warheads lately, and they are making big plans for them.

              Well, of course. That is why they are dragging through the agreement on the freezing of nuclear arsenals. Probably the stone flower does not come out.

              That is why they say that it does not work. And they launched information with America very actively. About a year ago I spoke with one of theirs about the state of their nuclear arsenals and the lack of capacity for production / processing. So he also started about Americium, saying that now the rate is on new isotopes, with a lower critical mass and more stable than Plutonium.
              Well, let's consider it their duck.
              But their plutonium is still "heaps", so the problem will most likely be solved.
              Quote: D16
              faced the fact of the need for the earliest possible creation of a completely unnecessary ground-based RSD.

              I think that they still need this missile against China. Moreover, they have now opened about a dozen OCDs on hypersound - it's all the same problem - China.
              Well, they cannot get away from us as long as we exist.
              1. D16
                D16 17 November 2020 16: 37
                +2
                It's not just about this warhead.

                Give an example of another. They can say anything. Only now has the country's leadership developed a stable immunity to their stories and arrivals. Not the eighties in the yard.
                If there is a possibility of using nuclear warhead detonators as a low-power charge, then they can try to take them from other warheads already removed from their carriers and from other types of warheads.

                If there was such an opportunity, then the number of BBs each year would at least be constant.
                I think this is more likely a reinsurance of our General Staff, and the Foreign Ministry only announced it. It was he who provided intelligence and background information.

                The Americans have already realized all possible fears of the Foreign Ministry. Demonstrated the launch from the launch pad of the former target missile, calling it RSD and the possibility of launching axes from ground Mk-41. On this the groundwork is over lol .
                they say now the rate is on new isotopes, with a lower critical mass and more stable than Plutonium.

                A small percentage of Pu241 is always present in the "young" weapon-grade Plutonium. It turns into Americium, which is a source of alpha and gamma radiation and constantly poisons people working with ammunition, explosives and electronics in the ammunition, the core itself. It is because of this that every 8 to 30 years the blocks are disassembled and plutonium nuclei are sent to melt down to remove isotopes. However, after 3x-4x such TO, Pu-241 ends and the core becomes stable. But you still need to service other BB components. But less often. So I feel sorry for the gunsmiths who will work with ammunition made from a radioactive isotope.
                I think that they still need this missile against China.

                The rocket is nothing. Complex everything. What the Americans launched under the guise of an IRBM were missiles. And the complex, in addition to money and development time, requires deployment areas, where it can hide during a threatened period. There are two options:
                1. On the territory of bases in Southeast Asia to build protected mines.
                2. Rent a jungle for the deployment of PGRK, which does not exist.
                Expensive, don't you think laughing .
                Amers have a universal tool for all occasions. It is called Trident 2D5. With its help, all issues with China are resolved, except that China is across the river from us and the deployment areas of its strategic nuclear forces are very close to our border. There is an opportunity to get a counter-retaliatory strike from two states at once. This fact is a guarantee of China's security, and not the absence of RSD amers. By the way, the fate of the "Rubezh" complex (from 2 to 6 thousand km), which was tested but was not deployed, hints that we do not need RSD too much. For there is no need to frighten China now.
                1. bayard
                  bayard 17 November 2020 19: 43
                  0
                  Quote: D16
                  For there is no need to frighten China now.

                  I would not be so categorical about China, they were not and will not be our ally, so a deterrent is necessary. Here, "Daggers" alone are indispensable.
                  Well, and explain the threat to Japan.
                  1. D16
                    D16 17 November 2020 20: 26
                    0
                    They have not been and will not be our ally, so a deterrent is needed. Here one cannot do with "Daggers".
                    Well, and explain the threat to Japan.

                    ... But it makes no sense to churn out 100-500 Pioneers either. You can distribute earrings to all sisters with the available means. The same UR-100 UTTH, which is now with the Vanguards, have a minimum sighting range of 1000 km.
                    1. bayard
                      bayard 17 November 2020 21: 00
                      0
                      Quote: D16
                      ... But it makes no sense to churn out 100-500 Pioneers either.

                      Pieces 200 - 250 would be quite appropriate.
                      One hundred to the west and east and 50 to the south. The world will immediately become more stable.
                      Another half a hundred could be placed in Venezuela and Cuba ... but these are dreams of BEAUTIFUL. fellow
                      Quote: D16
                      You can distribute earrings to all sisters with the available means.

                      It will not be so easy to do this - the number of sisters has noticeably increased now, and with earrings the deficit is a limitation in quantity. For those sisters that are closer, they need a more modest strategic tool, but sufficient in range. KR not to offer - this is a second strike weapon when air defense systems and airfields are suppressed.
                      Quote: D16
                      The same UR-100 UTTH, which is now with the Vanguards, have a minimum sighting range of 1000 km.

                      This is a piece goods, and quite valuable to shoot "under the threshold". Let him fly to the main partner in stability.
                      1. D16
                        D16 17 November 2020 22: 43
                        0
                        Pieces 200 - 250 would be quite appropriate.

                        How humble you are. The USSR had about 400 of them. deployed.
                        This is a piece goods, and quite valuable to shoot "under the threshold"

                        This I mean that liquid-propellant rocket engines are perfectly throttled and very flexible in use. But even the current TT missiles fly at minimum distances along "low" trajectories. And the decision-making center can be anywhere.
                        It will not be so easy to do this - the number of sisters has noticeably increased now, and with earrings the deficit is a limitation in quantity.

                        Have mercy. Iskander's new Central European sisters with Calibers behind the eyes, and TNW is not limited to current treaties. Estonian air defense on 9M729 will have the same impact as on 9M723. None.
                      2. bayard
                        bayard 18 November 2020 05: 31
                        0
                        Quote: D16
                        How humble you are. The USSR had about 400 of them. deployed.

                        In addition to the "Pioneers" in the USSR, hundreds of P-12 and P-14 were also deployed, and each had a head up to 5 Mt. But Russia is not the USSR, if "Rubezhi" will be adopted, God forbid, have at least a hundred or two.
                        Quote: D16
                        This I mean that liquid-propellant rocket engines are perfectly throttled and very flexible in use. But even the current TT missiles fly at minimum distances along "low" trajectories.

                        Why do we need to hit the sparrows with a gun? An ICBM is a very expensive and complicated thing; it brings warmth and light to people on other continents. It is not worth overloading it with tasks that are unusual for it; for closer neighbors, appropriate tools are needed. So we cannot do without MRBM, since the treaty has sunk into oblivion. It is much more economical and reliable than using airplanes, subsonic cruise missiles (which fighters under the direction of AWACS planes will get rid of like on a training ground), and other exotic things. Everyone who is not bound by treaties and is technically capable has such missiles. So it's time for us to return to this club.
                        Quote: D16
                        Have mercy. Iskander's new Central European sisters with Calibers behind the eyes, and TNW is not limited to current treaties. Estonian air defense on 9M729 will have the same impact as on 9M723. None.

                        But what have Estonia and even Poland to do with it?
                        First of all, you even count these - former "brothers" and allies in the VD, in the table of goals.
                        And also ALL of Europe.
                        Where have you gone to Turkey?
                        They forgot about the Middle East.
                        They did not even think about the Far East, and after all we have not only troops there, but also the population and infrastructure ... with Gulktn nose. There, one cannot do without such an instrument as the MRBM - Japan, China, both Koreas, and how many American bases are there in the region (Southeast Asia)?
                        And take out the earrings for everyone, but give them. Yes, not one by one, but to ENOUGH.
                      3. D16
                        D16 18 November 2020 21: 02
                        0
                        In addition to the "Pioneers" in the USSR, hundreds of P-12 and P-14 were deployed, and each had a head up to 5 Mt.

                        Only then the priorities changed. All this scrap metal, which was devouring money as if not in itself, was happily zeroed out .. Better less is better, as grandfather Lenin wrote smile
                        Why do we need to hit the sparrows with a gun? An ICBM is a very expensive and complicated thing; it brings warmth and light to people on other continents.

                        Sparrows they are, oh, how fat they are. You will kill one so fat and important from the first shot, the rest of the trifle will not want to fight. And there is no need to do and maintain a rocket for every little thing. Moreover, the Americans in Europe themselves stubbornly crawl under the Iskander. Turkey for what sins have you decided to glass? They don't even have their own nuclear weapons. It is enough to endure Inzhirlik. If they themselves cannot carry it forward smile
                        So we cannot do without MRBM, since the treaty has sunk into oblivion.

                        So START3 will end soon. Change as many BBs as you like from tactical to strategic carriers. How many have been deployed on Yarsakh-Bulava? Three. Maybe six. And on Redoubt too. So much for a multiple increase in the number of BBs without increasing the number of strategic delivery vehicles. Enough for both China and Europe. Even in Southeast Asia will remain. laughing
                        how to be smart with aviation, subsonic cruise missiles (which fighters under the direction of AWACS planes will be dealt with like on a training ground)

                        Yeah. At the test site, they can and will be cut, but only subsonic missiles should be considered in conjunction with other means. When, from behind the radio horizon, the ballistics will pop out will no longer be up to those who climb the bushes with their RED.
                      4. bayard
                        bayard 19 November 2020 04: 59
                        0
                        Quote: D16
                        Only then the priorities changed, all this money, which was eating like a mess, was happily zeroed out.

                        Then the general secretary changed, from a sovereign and veteran of the Second World War to a traitor and the son of a Turkish citizen.
                        R-12 and R-14 (with a range of 2000 and 4000 km, respectively) were put into service and deployed in the early 60s, but (for example) 5 (five!) Such missiles were enough to withdraw such a nuclear power from the war, ka England. For power, it does matter.
                        By the end of the 80s, they were replaced by Pioneers with a range of 5500 km. and three heads. And by means of overcoming missile defense - by means of electronic warfare and a set of false targets. But the P-12 and the P-14 were not removed from service either, because they still had quite enough resources, and the number of RSDs was not limited by agreements.
                        And in the USSR there was no budgetary rule, and state reserves were kept at home and worked for the economy. The presence of the already available pocket did not pull.
                        Quote: D16
                        Sparrows they are, oh, how fat they are. You will kill one so fat and important from the first shot, the rest of the trifle will not want to fight.

                        What prevents you from doing the same in a less expensive way? IRBMs are 2 - 4 times cheaper than ICBMs, can be made on a lighter chassis and also have several heads ("Pioneer" had).
                        You probably think that we have a surplus of strategic nuclear forces today?
                        You are very much mistaken. They are at the lowest level acceptable for safety. Count the number of our carriers, warheads, their power, and compare with the number of high-priority targets at such a distance ... You will be very surprised.
                        We could glaze in the USSR, when we had 1740 ICBMs, 950 SLBMs + strategic aviation and a powerful fleet with MAPLs carrying cruise missiles and heavy anti-ship missiles with heads of 500 - 700 Kt.
                        And which warheads were in service ... repeat 25Mt. , 20Mt. , and even "Voevod" and "Stiletov" had heads of 600-750 Kt. (10 and 6 warheads, respectively) ...
                        Now there is no trace of such power.
                        So look at things soberly and with a calculator.
                        Quote: D16
                        Moreover, the Americans in Europe themselves stubbornly climb under the Iskander.

                        Iskander has a range of 500 km. ... well, maybe up to 700 - 750 km. , if at the limit of the range, and this is not "all of Europe", but only the central maximum. Without MRBMs for the rapid disabling of their military, civil and port infrastructure, this is extremely insufficient. CR is a means for such tasks, auxiliary.
                        Quote: D16
                        Turkey for what sins have you decided to glass? They don't even have their own nuclear weapons.

                        The second army is strongest in NATO, it has and BUILDS a powerful navy, has perfect diesel-electric submarines, CONTROL THE STRAITS. And also has a great influence among the Turkic peoples of the former USSR and the Islamic world.
                        Hostile to us.
                        Quote: D16
                        It is enough to endure Inzhirlik.

                        Not enough.
                        You will have to work with it. And it is better to work IMMEDIATELY - with one or two strikes across the entire military infrastructure. We will not have ground forces on it, we are not the USSR, which only had an Army of 5,5 million people. ... The Land Forces of the Russian Federation have a total strength of 300 thousand people.
                        To the whole huge country !!!
                        In the event of a war, we will have no time to breed polites and there is nothing special. Therefore, it is necessary to jam fish in "the whole pond".
                        Quote: D16
                        So START3 will end soon.

                        yes
                        Quote: D16
                        How many have been deployed on Yarsakh-Bulava? Three. Maybe six.

                        Maybe 10, if 5 - 50Kt. , but it's better to have a bigger one. The warhead, of course, can be added to both Yars and Bulava with Liners \ Blue ... But for all this variety, the targets are assigned at intercontinental (!) Range.
                        And we have a lot of restless neighbors in the near and middle zone.
                        "Dagger" that's what it was adopted for?
                        How is RCC? lol
                        No, this is a substitute for the MRBM prohibited for us. yes
                        Quote: D16
                        And on Redoubt too.

                        "Redoubt" is a shipborne air defense system for our frigates.
                        You apparently had "Frontier".
                        Quote: D16
                        So much for a multiple increase in the number of BBs without increasing the number of strategic delivery vehicles. Enough for both China and Europe. Even in Southeast Asia will remain.

                        Not enough for everyone. Only the most hungry.
                        And at the appropriate range.
                        Quote: D16
                        At the test site, they can and will be cut, but only subsonic missiles should be considered in conjunction with other means. When, because of the radio horizon, the ballistics will pop out, it will no longer be up to those who climb the bushes with their RED.

                        Ballistic and low-altitude targets will be dealt with by completely different means and services.
                        Ballistics - early warning systems and missile defense.
                        Low-altitude KR - AWACS aircraft, aviation and air defense.
                        It is always better to count on the opposition of a STRONG enemy, and our enemy is strong. And there are many such opponents.
                        The Russian Federation cannot afford to have a sufficiently numerous air force and a sufficient number of attack aircraft, because this is not only the aircraft themselves, but also the airfield infrastructure (2 - 3 airfields per regiment), training of pilots (long and expensive) and aircraft technicians, and much more.
                        But tactical and medium-range missiles are capable of compensating for the shortage of strike assets. Their strikes will be more inevitable, require less time to prepare missions, less l / s, less infrastructure, they have less vulnerability and are less tied to their bases (in the case of mobile systems). And all this can be done simply faster and cheaper.
                      5. D16
                        D16 20 November 2020 20: 44
                        0
                        Then the general secretary changed, from a sovereign and veteran of the Great Patriotic War to a traitor

                        I never make excuses for Gorby, but he got an inheritance with big problems. Debit and credit in the USSR even under Khrushchev was reduced through a monetary reform.
                        For power, it does matter.

                        Much more important when working on areas is the number of BBs, albeit less powerful.
                        By the end of the 80s, they were replaced by Pioneers with a range of 5500 km. and three heads.

                        Each launch of which cost more than 8 million. And there were 400+ of them. I don’t know how in the USSR, but now the Yars tractor with communication is comparable in price with a rocket. For comparison, the price of the UR-100 was 5+ million. But the ambush was in the cost of the mine and their number, limited by the contract. Tu-154B cost about the same. So much for the price of glass transition in China and Europe. Not surprisingly, the Union was in trouble. smile
                        IRBMs are 2 - 4 times cheaper than ICBMs, can be made on a lighter chassis and also have several heads (the Pioneer had).

                        The cost per head was higher than that of the R-36M and several times higher than that of the UR-100. The only heavy ICBM chassis I remember is the nuclear submarine of pr.941. You are right here. MRBM chassis is lighter laughing
                        So look at things soberly and with a calculator.

                        In-in. calculator is a very useful thing. Sometimes it allows you to understand why your country is bankrupt.
                        Maybe 10, if 5 - 50Kt. ,

                        You have a very peculiar idea of ​​BB and buses.
                        A 5-50 kT block will weigh as much as a 150 kT block. From the point of view of energy and mass perfection, charges from 100 to 500 kTn are optimal. The block itself has certain ballistic properties, determined by its weight and dimensions. Otherwise, it is difficult to guarantee its CEP. The stage of breeding for 6 blocks has dimensions and fuel for breeding 6 blocks. Otherwise, it will be a step from the R-36M, with its weight and dimensions.
                        Ballistic and low-altitude targets will be dealt with by completely different means and services.
                        Ballistics - early warning systems and missile defense.
                        Low-altitude KR - AWACS aircraft, aviation and air defense.

                        In the case of big badabum, no one will deal with these missiles. Simply because ICBM missile defense systems do not yet exist. Therefore, I am inclined to believe that an ICBM PGRK from Irkutsk will perform better on targets in Europe than an RSD launched from Kozelsk.
                        and our enemy is strong. And there are many such opponents.

                        Our enemy is degrading by leaps and bounds. In such a situation, you have to wait for the opponent's BB to stabilize. While it is shrinking, it is better to endure all his antics.
                      6. bayard
                        bayard 21 November 2020 05: 51
                        0
                        Quote: D16

                        Our enemy is degrading by leaps and bounds. In such a situation, you have to wait for the opponent's BB to stabilize. While it is shrinking, it is better to endure all his antics.

                        Only one of our opponents is degrading, while the second, on the contrary, is strengthening its army at an enviable pace, building an ocean-going fleet and intends to bring the number of BBs on its strategic carriers to 1000 in the coming years. And this despite the fact that this - the second, very likely enemy, MRBM is just a dime a dozen. As well as OTRK and other types of medium and short range carriers.
                        And this - the second enemy, has a land border with us, calls us "a small nation, which, by the will of providence, inherited the largest and richest country in the world, which we can neither equip, nor simply establish a normal life in it."
                        It was a quote.
                        And against this potential adversary, the MRBM is much more practical for us than the ICBM. Moreover, TT ICBMs (according to your own data) are several times more expensive than liquid ones, and at times will be several times more expensive than lighter TT MRBMs.
                        The same "Rubezh" will be 2 - 3 times cheaper than "Poplar" or "Yars", but it will be able to carry from one to ten BB. Medium distance.
                        A two-stage "Iskander" will be able to send BB to a distance of up to 2000 km. and will cost one and a half to two times more than usual.
                        Quote: D16
                        I never make excuses for Gorby, but he got an inheritance with big problems. Debit and credit in the USSR even under Khrushchev was reduced through a monetary reform.

                        The imbalance in foreign (and domestic) trade under Khrushch did not turn out for natural reasons, but because of voluntarism and completely "idiotic" (in fact, deliberately harmful) reforms in the economy and public administration. And the cleansing of the "Stalinist guard" in the administrative apparatus immediately after the murder of the Leader.
                        One abolition of the Government of the USSR and the transition to "direct party management of the economy through the Economic Councils" ... what it cost. "Enlargement of collective farms", a gamble with plowing virgin lands .... rub all the corns.
                        Quote: D16
                        By the end of the 80s, they were replaced by Pioneers with a range of 5500 km. and three heads.

                        Each launch of which cost more than 8 million. And there were 400+ of them.

                        3,2 billion Soviet rubles money is not small, but if this is the price of guaranteed destruction / deterrence from aggression of the entire NATO bloc and hostile China, as well as Alaska and part of the western coast of the United States ... It seems to me that the game was still worth the candle.
                        And TT is still safer than heptyl, and more convenient to use.
                        Quote: D16
                        For comparison, the price of the UR-100 was 5+ mln.

                        Well, "Sotka" is generally a masterpiece and a legend from Chelomey!
                        But still on heptyl, and therefore was not suitable for mobile deployment.
                        Quote: D16
                        The only heavy ICBM chassis I remember is the nuclear submarine of pr.941. Here you are right

                        But what about the BZHRK with "Well done" \ "Scalpel"?
                        Isn't it a chassis?
                        The fuel for his diesel locomotives was excellent ... especially in the winter for a diesel passenger car ... My Nissan loved him ...
      4. Cyril G ...
        Cyril G ... 18 November 2020 00: 49
        0
        Quote: D16
        By the way, the fate of the "Rubezh" complex (from 2 to 6 thousand km), which was tested but was not deployed, hints that we do not need RSD too much.

        It is not deployed purely for political reasons - and the European Union was told this - that if suddenly, then immediately.
        1. bayard
          bayard 18 November 2020 05: 33
          0
          Quote: Cyril G ...
          It is not deployed purely for political reasons - and the European Union was told this - that if suddenly, then immediately.

          It would be better shown - deployed in the Far East.
          Against American bases in the region.
          1. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 19 November 2020 21: 04
            +1
            On the mind it would be necessary - it's time!
        2. D16
          D16 18 November 2020 21: 06
          +1
          that if suddenly, then immediately.

          So it turns out that if not "suddenly", then it is not necessary at all. And the amers to "suddenly" is still very far away. laughing
  • OgnennyiKotik
    OgnennyiKotik 16 November 2020 10: 50
    0
    Quote: bayard
    The author did not take into account one point

    The author did not take into account many points. Bile and anger covered his eyes.
    The SM-6 Block IB will be a super-versatile hypersonic missile operating against ground, surface, air targets from ships and ground mobile complexes. They plan to make a version for submarines and aircraft.
    The ground version will likely retain the ability to shoot down air targets. For the ILC, the ability to work on sea targets is important.
    Universalism will make this rocket the most widespread, mass production will make it cheap.
    Ground launchers are not a problem at all. Pack of 4 Mk41, jack and trailer. They previously had a PU Griffin, possibly carefully disassembled and lying in one of the warehouses. Naturally PU for Tomahawk and SM-6 will be the same.

    1. bayard
      bayard 16 November 2020 15: 59
      +3
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      The author did not take into account many points. Bile and anger covered his eyes.

      I did not see the bile and anger from the author, rather, just a spiritually uplifting political information on the topic.
      I agree with the rest, except
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      The ground version will likely retain the ability to shoot down air targets.

      This is hardly advisable - the seeker for a missile defense system is expensive, takes up volume and weight, and to strike a ground stationary target, an ordinary GPS navigator is enough. This version will be the cheapest, and possibly the most popular.
      The head for the anti-ship missile system also differs from the seeker's missile defense system, therefore, most likely, a family of several target modifications will be created on one body, engine and main systems. Maximum unification will make this family cheaper and be able to provide mass production.
      1. OgnennyiKotik
        OgnennyiKotik 16 November 2020 17: 06
        0
        Quote: bayard
        This is hardly advisable - the GOS for missiles is expensive

        It depends on how to do it. Radio command guidance has not yet been canceled. It will work against CD and UAVs (they are now most annoyed by this topic).
        But I also think that there will be a family, 100% unification brings more problems than benefits. A reasonable compromise is always needed.
        1. bayard
          bayard 16 November 2020 23: 37
          0
          Quote: OgnennyiKotik
          It depends on how to do it. Radio command guidance has not yet been canceled. It will work against CD and UAV

          The United States already has this very SAM, and this is a long-range SAM and is not suitable for combating UAVs and CDs. And in general, to have anti-aircraft missiles in the MRBM ammunition packs is ... an oxymoron.
          To use missiles, you need radar and control equipment, this is a whole complex - an anti-aircraft missile system, which is VERY expensive, complex and has completely different functions. And without it (the complex), the SAM itself has no combat value.
          They (the Americans) have long nurtured this idea, determined with the type of missile defense system, which they use as the basis for future MRBMs, anti-ship missiles and airborne aeroballistic missiles. Now the decision is made and the case for the implementation.
    2. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 21 November 2020 11: 58
      0
      Quote: OgnennyiKotik
      Bile and anger covered his eyes.
      The SM-6 Block IB will be a super-versatile hypersonic missile operating against ground, surface, air targets from ships and ground mobile complexes.


      And you have a banal illiteracy.
      If there is nothing new from the word at all in the use of anti-aircraft missiles as an anti-ship missile system, the same Storm was not called UZRK for nothing, a universal anti-aircraft missile system, and the requirements are more than adequate. But the use of an anti-aircraft missile as a missile for work on the ground is fundamentally delusional. Firstly, the price. SAM SM-6 costs at least 2-3 times higher than the Tomahawk. Secondly, to use missiles from any carrier, you need an adequate control system. That is, to have such a missile as part of ground complexes is already delusional.

      Quote: bayard
      And in general, to have anti-aircraft missiles in the MRBM ammunition packs is ... an oxymoron.
      To use missiles, you need radar and control equipment, this is a whole complex - an anti-aircraft missile system, which is VERY expensive, complex and has completely different functions. And without it (the complex), the SAM itself has no combat value.


      Exactly
  • garri-lin
    garri-lin 16 November 2020 12: 22
    0
    We learned how to make a nuclear artillery shell of 152 mm caliber. Half a century ago. Much less and easier? Why tinker with Americias and other innovations.
    1. bayard
      bayard 16 November 2020 16: 05
      +1
      With a plutonium charge, such projectiles had one significant problem - the bottom had a very short shelf life, only a few years. This is very inconvenient, you had to send them to the bulkhead too often. And this is due to the properties of the plutonium charge.
      But with America, such a problem does not arise and the shelf life can be very long, which is very convenient for military operation and the organization of the production of such products.
      In any case, such arguments were in those publications that I came across before. The price of America was not mentioned in those articles, but if the topic was dealt with, then the economic side was also calculated. At least for the future.
      1. garri-lin
        garri-lin 16 November 2020 19: 45
        0
        The price difference is huge. The production complexity is high. It is cheaper and easier to work with good old plutonium once every five years. America and its counterparts have a future. But it is distant. And America needs a rocket now. Massive and inexpensive. Everything will be the old fashioned way.
        1. bayard
          bayard 16 November 2020 23: 45
          0
          That means they will simply install "old" detonators from old warheads.
  • mister-red
    mister-red 16 November 2020 17: 23
    -2
    And then Ostap suffered ...
    Only hardly anyone in their right mind reads everything
    1. bayard
      bayard 16 November 2020 23: 48
      +1
      Then watch clips, cartoons and TV series, the brain will rest, the "sound mind" will not suffer.
  • D16
    D16 17 November 2020 17: 40
    0
    Modern Russia is not even capable of resuming the construction of the post-war An-2 today!

    An-2 is too big for the current needs of the agricultural sector. The only thing he can do there is locust control. On this, the serial production cannot be ensured. As for the rest, there are now motor hang-gliders at the helm. In passenger aviation, An-2 is generally outlawed. In accordance with the AP-23, with its passenger capacity, there should be TWO engines, and not one. That is why there will be no An-2 in Russia.
    So we ALSO, except for "Caliber" nothing is observed.

    It’s not necessary. Will appear at amers, deploy "Rubezh" or 3M14 dry. smile
    Until now, "Sarmat" has not taken off with us! Although the journalists so accustomed the hamsters to the idea that they are just about that they are SURE that he already ... is ...
    Until it takes off, then it will pass the tests and FINALLY THAT ... the long-awaited "Sarmat" will be adopted ...

    What, "Voevoda" ... of that? crying
    until we set up the serial assembly of the Il-76MD90A and at least ascend into the sky in an acceptable weight form of the Il-112

    On the 19th, two aircraft will be transmitted:
    https://glas.ru/politics/65635-minoborony-poluchit-dva-novejshih-vts-il-76md-90a-uzhe-nasledujuschej-nedele.html
    "At present, the plant has begun manufacturing two more Il-112V aircraft," the press service of the company told RBC Chernozemye.
    The production of the third and fourth Il-112V aircraft began in 2019. The first two airliners have already been handed over for testing to the customer, PJSC "Il". (C)
    https://www.metalinfo.ru/ru/news/120609
    1. bayard
      bayard 17 November 2020 20: 37
      0
      Quote: D16
      In passenger aviation, An-2 is generally outlawed. In accordance with the AP-23, with its passenger capacity, there should be TWO engines, and not one.

      Very much in vain!
      I believe that any rules and laws should be to the benefit of the state and society, and not to harm and inconvenience. An-2 is a reliable aircraft, economical, unpretentious and very good for local routes. How many tried to replace it with something more modern, but in terms of cost and ease of use, nothing has taken root. Back in the Union. And now for local airlines this is the most convenient and cheapest option.
      The Chinese do not bother with such restrictions at all, but simply set up its production at home. And they use it with pleasure. But we are not looking for easy, proven and safe ways. No.
      Quote: D16

      It’s not necessary. Will appear at amers, deploy "Rubezh" or 3M14 dry.

      "Frontier" is good, but not cheap either, and its deployment will require considerable time and money. In addition, such a complex is no less interesting in the Far East - from Kamchatka it will cover Alaska and the western coast of the United States, as well as Japan, from Eastern Siberia - China, Japan and all American bases in the region. But he has a dead zone for the use of 2000 km. , this imposes restrictions on combat use and possible bases.
      It's also good to dry out the 3M14, but this missile won't be cheap either. And its range is up to 1000 km.
      But the variant of the "two-stage Iskander", in which the 1st stage is from the Iskander itself, and the second is the Dagger, may turn out to be more budgetary at a price, and the range will provide up to 2000 km., Which harmonizes the medium-range strategic nuclear forces (together with a longer-range "Rubezh" and a dry "Zircon" ... well, "Iskander" in the operational-tactical zone).
      And, of course, land "Calibers", but this is for the second strike, when the air defense and enemy airfields are suppressed.
      Quote: D16
      What, "Voevoda" ... of that?

      Nominally, it seems still in service, but in fact ... all warranty periods have expired a long time ago. recourse It was necessary in 2014 to return not Crimea, but the whole of Ukraine, together with Yuzhmash - they would not have hemorrhoids with Voevoda and the development of Sarmat. There are big doubts that the "Sarmat" will fly on time, and that all tests will go smoothly - SUCH missiles have never been built in Russia before.
      Quote: D16
      On the 19th, two aircraft will be transmitted:

      These boards are from the debts for last year (in total, 3 boards were delayed with delivery), so there is no reason for pride at all. But according to the plans for this year's commissioning ... quite a disaster.
      The delivery schedule for this year was 6 units.
      Not one passed!
      And the conveyor / assembly shop ... is empty ... only the first one - the test assembly is being prepared for factory testing.
      On IL-76MD90 all deadlines were missed.
      The army was left without tankers, AWACS aircraft and new VTA aircraft ... and the old ones are working for wear and tear.
      Quote: D16
      "Currently, the plant has begun manufacturing two more Il-112V aircraft"

      It will be a very long and difficult song - there is not only an overweight fuselage, but also problematic engines (unreliable operation and lack of thrust ... stalled on takeoff - raw).
      It will take a long time to finish them.
      ... And if they returned Ukraine in 2014, they would now have a full line of military transport aircraft ... they would not have problems with aircraft engines ... they would build Ruslans at Aviastar ... they would build warships with Nikolaev power plants and would have a combat-ready fleet already today.
      But this mood ... the subjunctive ... request
      Our guides preferred ... to negotiate. sad
      With the enemy. fool
      1. D16
        D16 17 November 2020 22: 13
        0
        Very much in vain!

        Considering the Palestinians in which these aircraft operate, two engines are not a whim, but a vital necessity. The board that disappeared in the summer in Buryatia has not yet been found.
        Most accidents and accidents are due to engine problems.
        Nominally, it seems still in service, but in fact ... all warranty periods have expired a long time ago.

        Yuzhmash has stopped servicing the R-36 for a long time. That is, the rockets are guaranteed by another specialized enterprise. In order to load it into the Sarmat mine, it is necessary to get from there a Voevoda that fully meets the current requirements. No need to rush (s). laughing
        These boards are from the debts for last year (in total, 3 boards were delayed with delivery), so there is no reason for pride at all. But according to the plans for this year's commissioning ... quite a disaster.
        The delivery schedule for this year was 6 units.
        Not one passed!

        Some kind of pay, others kind of do. lol If the plane was really needed, it would be built, people would be paid wages and everyone would be happy.
        and the old ones work for wear

        Fairy tales. Airplanes in normal GA airlines work for wear and tear. BTA has no trace of those raids. I lived near the BTA airfield, located within the city. I saw it with my own eyes. An-12 for months stood motionless in parking lots.
        But he has a dead zone for the use of 2000 km

        Are you planning to shell your own territory? Nobody suits the positional areas near the border with the enemy.
        It's also good to dry out the 3M14, but this missile won't be cheap either. And its range is up to 1000 km

        It will cost almost as much as 9M729, which is part of the current Iskander M. Since 9M729 is its shortened copy of the INF Treaty. Range 3M14 2500 km with a conventional warhead. It makes sense to launch subsonic missiles in front of ballistic missiles in order to ensure their simultaneous arrival and increase the probability of target destruction. After all, the missile defense system will detect the ballistics released from behind the radio horizon earlier, and then there are gifts for WWI. smile
        a variant of the "two-stage" Iskander ", in which the 1st stage is from the" Iskander "itself, and the second - the" Dagger ", may be more budgetary at a price, and the range will provide up to 2000 km

        What you are proposing in essence is neither Dagger nor Iskander, but a completely new complex. The Pioneer and Speed ​​were created on the same principle. It's not fast or cheap at all.
        It will be a very long and difficult song - there is not only an overweight fuselage, but also problematic engines (unreliable operation and lack of thrust ... stalled on takeoff - raw).
        It will take a long time to finish them.

        If they didn’t know how to rectify the situation, they would not have laid the sides for testing and certification. By the way, where did the fireballs come from about engine problems? Based on the results of the first flight a year and a half ago? So there was nothing deaf on takeoff smile .
        And if they had returned to themselves in 2014 Ukraine

        Thank God they didn’t return it. Until now, they would have fought with partisans through forests and mountains.
        1. bayard
          bayard 18 November 2020 04: 41
          0
          Quote: D16
          Considering the Palestinians in which these aircraft operate, two engines are not a whim, but a vital necessity. The board that disappeared in the summer in Buryatia has not yet been found.

          This is because the operated An-2 is already old, and the maintenance is not known at what level it was. For many decades, these maize machines have been massively exploited, there have been accidents, but the plane has always been famous for its simplicity, reliability and economy. Adapt the new engine to it (the Chinese and not only delivered it and are happy) and go. I have never heard of the increased accident rate of these aircraft. But the problem today for Russia is the lack of ENGINES for these aircraft ... They are waiting. The same turboshaft that will be installed on the Ansat and on the L-410 ... There is even a variant of installing 2 engines of 2 hp on the An-450 on a "slingshot" in the nose (looks funny) .. ...
          Quote: D16
          Yuzhmash has stopped servicing the R-36 for a long time.

          This is bad, the "other specialized" company cannot provide the required quality of service, let alone the extension of the resource.
          It just so happened, I am familiar with people from the Yuzhnoye Design Bureau (albeit on a solid fuel topic), and I consider the loss of cooperation with him for our defense industry very harmful.
          If Russia regained its Novorossiya, Little Russia and Slobozhanshchina, then we would live today in a completely different state (But people were waiting for this), and would not have theses of problems in the military-industrial complex, which today hang like weights ... unsolvable. If Yuzhmash and the Yuzhnoye design bureau had been involved in the work on the Sarmat, it would most likely have taken off test launches long ago and entered service. This is, in fact, an improved R-36M2.
          And under the existing conditions, there really is no need to rush, and not because the resource "Voevod" is enough (not at all - the situation is complicated there), but because the enterprises and design bureaus entrusted with this work have no experience in creating such ICBMs. Therefore, a large cycle of testing and refinement is needed - it is inevitable. Remember how many (!!!) unsuccessful launches were during the tests of the R-36? ... I am afraid that this cannot be avoided with "Sarmat" either.
          But I wish all those involved - good luck and a good product at the exit.
          Quote: D16
          Some kind of pay, others kind of do. If the plane was really needed, it would be built, people would be paid wages and everyone would be happy.

          The plane is just needed, very much needed. But what we see with the dancing at Aviastar is direct sabotage, sabotage, embezzlement of funds through tenders (I have some information on their miracles) and the absolute lack of professionalism of the curators of this program from the government, the presidential administration and the Ministry of Defense.
          Did it become known only today about inflation and the rise in cost of the project?
          For several years now, those who are not indifferent have rung the bells about this ...
          Or is it complicity in corruption chains?
          Or the deepest, fantastic ... ignorance?
          And this is not only the case with this project. With so many.
          Quote: D16
          I saw it with my own eyes. An-12 for months stood motionless in parking lots.

          Serviceable An-12 today can be counted on the fingers of one hand. And the replacement is not visible even in the project. But they were the workhorses of the BTA.
          Quote: D16
          her range is up to 1000 km

          It will cost almost as much as 9M729, which is part of the current Iskander M. Since 9M729 is its shortened copy of the INF Treaty.

          Sorry, I confused it with the Zircon index, which is why I indicated a range of 1000 km. "Calibers" on land carriers of course need to be installed and deployed, but the subsonic CD is vulnerable to enemy aircraft - the AWACS aircraft can see it / them ... farooo to see, and it's a pleasure to shoot them down for fighters. So against a strong enemy, these should be used in the second strike - when the enemy's air defense system is suppressed by means less vulnerable to it.
          Quote: D16
          What you are proposing in essence is neither Dagger nor Iskander, but a completely new complex. The Pioneer and Speed ​​were created on the same principle. It's not fast or cheap at all.

          A year and a half ago on VO in the comments one of their members of the forum laid out (or even an article was) a drawing \ section - a side view of such a rocket in a TPU on a car chassis. Therefore, I think that the work / development of such a product should already be available. In fact, in terms of har-kam, this is an approximate analogue of "Pershing", if you manage to make it on ready-made elements, it would be very good. For the "Rubezh" is still an analogue of the "Pioneer" - it is expensive and quite heavy, has a range of up to 6000 km. and several warheads. It's almost an ICBM. And the proposed complex is quite budgetary and will occupy a niche just between the "Rubezh" and "Iskander".
          Do not neglect such complexes - our probable opponents and ill-wishers are just at such a distance. The brigade will make it possible to compensate for the insufficient number of fighter and strike aircraft in our country - there is no need to train pilots for them.
          Quote: D16
          By the way, where did the fireballs come from about engine problems? Following the results of the first flight a year and a half ago?

          No, fresher firewood - this year. We tried to lift the An-112, but ... the engine stalled during takeoff acceleration. From Voronezh they say that the engines are raw, there is almost no power reserve - they are designed to the limit of what is possible for this design.
          In addition, before such engines were produced by Zaporozhye ... perhaps the assembly culture affected ... Import substitution is given with great difficulty and frustrated plans.
          Quote: D16
          And if they had returned to themselves in 2014 Ukraine

          Thank God they didn’t return it. Until now, they would have fought with partisans through forests and mountains.

          You shouldn't be so. In 2014, people were waiting. The Ukrainian siloviki were waiting and were ready to swear allegiance to Russia. And what kind of forests are there in Ukraine? lol One laugh. In the Carpathians, the forest was cut out - constant mudslides and landslides because of this.
          Would have caught all the "forest brothers" themselves local security forces and the militia (it was not only in Donetsk and Lugansk prepared) ... And what are the current "heroi" partisans? At that time no one took them seriously in Ukraine either, until they were armed and given a FULL indulgence.
          People were WAITING.
          We waited until the summer and even until the fall of 2014.
          In 2015, they began to understand that Russia ... threw the Russians.
          Now the majority is convinced of this.
          But we are sure that it was the Power of Russia who threw it, having entered into a criminal conspiracy with criminals, terrorists and murderers of Russian people.
          You are not playing sports here with me, I’m already for 7 years not only "in the subject", but also in the process. I have been in Donetsk for these years.
          In each separate city of the former Ukraine, there were (and I hope so) from 3 to 5 or more Russian activists per Bandera member. In the spring of 2014, they knocked together Banderas from all over Ukraine and alternately attacked regional centers, where after the coup a wave of "Russian World" (as it was then dubbed) arose for legitimate power and unity with Russia.
          They NEVER had a majority, they were ALWAYS marginalized. It's just that those who hired them gave them weapons and the right to kill and rob with impunity.
          If Russia then took advantage of Yanukovych's request and entered ... even the most repulsed Banderas would have fled for Zbruch without looking back. I know this for sure, because I know those who, in the spring and summer of 2014, 6-7 times with their families RUNNED from the regions neighboring Donetsk Oblast to Lviv and further to Poland.
          Only because of rumors that "Russia is entering" !!!
          When reconnaissance patrols of the militia had not even approached Mariupol at the end of August, ALL Banderites, all officials were appointed by them, all power structures ... fled from the city! The city was empty from the enemy power, but because of the treacherous collusion, the troops did not enter it ...
          So they would run from everywhere!
          But the Russian government chose ... to negotiate with the enemy.
          And now, even more so, she hid in a bunker.
          Therefore, TODAY it is obvious to me that all the failures of weapons programs and other state programs are not accidental, not because of laziness and "incompetence", not because of stupid theft and slovenliness ... just ... they agreed.
          So it could not be otherwise.
          And henceforth - will not be.
          But there will be many bravura marches about "victories" ...
          1. D16
            D16 18 November 2020 23: 27
            0
            [quote] This is because the operated An-2 is already old, and maintenance is not known at what level it was. [/ quote]
            They fought with new ones. Look at the statistics of An-2 disasters and accidents. Naturally, the vast majority of them are due to the crooked hands of technicians and drunken pilots, but two motors in any case increase the chances of survival.
            [/ quote] This is bad, a "other specialized" enterprise of the required quality of service and even more so, the extension of the resource cannot provide. [/ quote]
            Did they tell you at Yuzhmash? Makeyevtsy Р36М have been serving for 5 years. And they made much more advanced and reliable boat complexes.
            [quote] I am familiar with people from the Yuzhnoye Design Bureau (though on solid fuel topics), and I consider the loss of cooperation with him for our defense industry very harmful. [/ quote]
            If these are the people who, for the analogue of 9M723, wind carbon fiber engines, then I consider such a loss useful, and even necessary. lol
            [quote] If Yuzhmash and Yuzhnoye KB were involved in the work on Sarmat [/ quote]
            It is enough that they have attracted the Makeevites.
            [quote] The plane is just needed, very much needed. [/ quote]
            So what is its advantage? Greater MTOW? So it still needs to be implemented in the old cargo compartment. What can be taken away on the PS-90, which is not possible on the D-30KP? Except for rolled metal? laughing
            [quote] Serviceable An-12 today on the fingers of one hand to count. [/ quote]
            Are there five straight left? Who told you that what he thinks is a working plane?
            [quote] We tried to lift the An-112 [/ quote]
            Freudian slip lol .
            [quote] From Voronezh they say that the engines are raw, there is almost no power reserve - they are designed at the limit of what is possible for this design. [/ quote]
            Let Voronezh see the MTOW Casa C-295 and the power of its engines. And then they talk about the insufficiency of TV7-117ST.
            [quote] In addition, previously similar engines were produced by Zaporozhye ... [/ quote]
            It was developed by Leningrad. They know how to develop, learn to produce.
            [quote] I've been in Donetsk these years. [/ quote]
            I sympathize and am not going to argue. Russia Crimea was enough for the most it can not. What the hell is Ukraine. They consider themselves Russians, let them move and work here, and do not wait for them to be registered with a hut and a garden in Russia. They will not write it down. And they won't write it to Europe. In the Wild Field they will gladly write it down. Moreover, both Russia and the EU.
            1. bayard
              bayard 19 November 2020 06: 38
              0
              [quote = D16] They fought with new ones. Look at the statistics of An-2 disasters and accidents. Naturally, the vast majority of them are due to the crooked hands of technicians and drunken pilots, but two motors in any case increase the chances of survival. [/ Quote]
              An-2s were operated in agriculture and for patrolling forestry, pollinated fields and carried passengers on local airlines, worked as postal and on parcels, were operated in field and the most extreme situations. And they tried to change them for two-engine ones several times and ... refused - they could not find equals in efficiency, ease of operation and performance. Any new twin-engine small aircraft will be many times, if not an order of magnitude more expensive than the An-2, both in price and in operation. There is a request for the An-2.
              But there is no ENGINE. Because of what, the case got up.
              An engine will appear, and there will be an updated An-2.
              In the United States to this day, and older aircraft fly.
              [quote = D16] Did they tell you at Yuzhmash? Makeyevtsy R36M have been serving for 5 years already. And they made much more advanced and reliable boat complexes. [/ Quote]
              Makeyevtsy made only LIGHT class rockets for those submarines. And the "more advanced" - "Typhoon" they did in the commonwealth of the Yuzhnoye Design Bureau. Pavlograd supplied the first two stages for the Typhoon in READY form! And in Kurgan, only the breeding stage and general refinement were put on them.
              By the way, these steps from Typhoons were also brought to Pavlograd for disposal, where they were produced, and disposed of there.
              [quote = D16] If these are the people who wind carbon fiber engines for the analogue of 9M723, then I consider such a loss useful, and even necessary. [/ quote]
              These are exactly the "people" from whom the "people" from Voskresensk and Vodkinsk learned to wind the staircase. In the solid-fuel theme, Yuzhmash was the flagship of the Soviet rocketry. Both in Voskresensk and in Votkinsk, Yuzhmash is remembered with undisguised respect.
              But for the Iskander they could not wind up the engine ... they had to do it the old fashioned way.
              And say thank you to those people that they did not "wind" the engine for the RK "Thunder-2", even though they were driven there in three shifts. So I remember that blacksmith from the "Formula of Love", who had to repair the carriage ...
              [quote = D16] Are you five left? Who told you that what he considers a serviceable plane? [/ Quote]
              The fatigue of metal has not been canceled.
              The break with the Antonov Design Bureau also affected.
              [quote = D16] We tried to lift the An-112 [/ quote]
              Freudian clause [/ quote]
              This year, after the repair of the runway was completed, there was an attempt to lift the An-112 into the air, on ... during takeoff, its engine failed in takeoff mode. Information from Voronezh from those involved.
              [quote = D16] Let Voronezh have a look at MTOW Casa C-295 and the power of its engines. And then they talk about the insufficiency of TV7-117ST. [/ Quote]
              Voronezh ASZ does not have such a choice, there is only TV7-117ST, moreover, domestic assembly, and they work with it.
              [quote = D16] previously, similar engines were produced by Zaporozhye ... [/ quote]
              It was developed by Leningrad. They know how to develop, learn to produce. [/ Quote]
              Of course they will learn, they are needed at least two planes (Il-112 and Il-114) and one helicopter (Mi-38). Another thing is when and when they will reach an acceptable quantity and quality. The production of such aircraft engines is a whole SCHOOL.
              ... And all this could have just returned home in 2014.
              [quote = D16] Consider themselves Russians, let them move and work here, and not wait for them to be signed up with a hut and a garden in Russia. They will not write it down. And they won't write it to Europe. In the Wild Field they will be happy to write it down. Moreover, both Russia and the EU. [/ Quote]
              With what fright you began to scatter the Russian lands so generously? This is our - Russian land, watered with our blood and rebuilt by our fathers. Most of the cities (almost all) of "Ukraine" were founded by Russian tsars and princes, and the latter - under Stalin and Soviet Power. And these lands were inhabited by immigrants from Great Russia - their Kursk, Bryansk, Moscow, etc. There, all toponymy (including villages) is Russian: Old Russia, Novomoskovsk, the same Pavlograd (not in honor of the "Cossack" PavlA), Yekaterinoslav (Dnepropetrovsk ), Odessa, Nikolaev, Kherson.
              Kiev - Mother of Russian cities!
              Chernigov is an ancient Russian city, sung in epics ...
              What's Ukrainian? !!!
              In addition to the fairy tales of the agent of the Austrian General Staff - Grushevsky? !!!
              I personally knew those people who invented the modern (!) "Ukrainian language". And these were not Ukrainians.
              And not Russians.
              [quote = D16] They will happily write it to the Wild Field. Moreover, both Russia and the EU. [/ Quote]
              And this does not honor Russia.
              As well as those who proclaim such heresy.
              Descendants unworthy of the fathers - the gatherers of the Russian Lands!
              Those same "khataskrayniks" who value their "garden" and their cozy little world dearer. Like those whose brother's house caught fire in the neighborhood, quietly giggle and blame the victims ... Despite the fact that the house was set on fire by bandits, and they also look at your house with lust.
              Never confuse people and authorities. After the coup, the Russian people of Ukraine did not trust their "power" - neither the former (surrendered country), nor the new - the national fascists were usurpers. But there was hope for Russia, especially after the annexation of Crimea.
              But the Russian government preferred to come to terms with the government of the national fascists and the aligorkhat and foreign curators behind them.
              Russia chose SHAME.
              And, as a consequence, everything that is due to him - isolation, degradation, impoverishment of the population (when 45% of the population have a monthly income of less than 15 thousand rubles, and this is official statistics), disrespect even from second- and third-class countries (look how Turkey behaves with Russia - in Syria, Libya, Transcaucasia, with regard to Crimea and relations with Ukraine) ...
              The grandmaster lost in smoke!
              And does not dare say a word
              Deciding everything for him ...
              Lords.

              Do not get carried away by propaganda sources ... there is such blatant stupidity and lies (!!!) ... And talk about what you know.
              So it will be fair.
              1. D16
                D16 19 November 2020 23: 52
                0
                And they tried to change them for two-engine ones several times and ... refused - they could not find equals in efficiency, ease of operation and performance.

                We live in a market economy country. Airlines use Anas, which they got for free or for a penny. And they will fly until the resource is fully depleted. Small AKs will not spend their own money on the purchase of new aircraft. Local air travel is unprofitable only at the expense of the state. subsidies. In this case, it is necessary to first subsidize the development of a new aircraft, subsidize its production, subsidize leasing and operation. And all this without the slightest prospects on the international market, since no one really needs aircraft of this class there. I'm not talking about sanctions. Nevertheless, at the very least, work is underway. By the end of the year, the first glider of the UZGA must be submitted for statistical tests. The VK-800S engine is undergoing bench tests. How long they will last is impossible to say. NK-32-02 passed tests for 5 years, until it showed the required resource.
                And "more advanced" - "Typhoon"

                I'm talking about Sineva. We're talking about Sarmat and R-36M, and they are both liquid.
                In the solid-fuel theme, Yuzhmash was the flagship of the Soviet rocketry

                That is, RT-1, RT-2P, RT2-PM have been doing at Yuzhmash since the late fifties? wassat They were given the development and production of the RT-23. Naturally, the production of 1-2 stages of the R-39, similar in characteristics, was also transferred to Yuzhmash. Then the R-39UTTKh began to make themselves.
                But for the Iskander they could not wind up the engine ... they had to do it the old fashioned way.

                Well, of course. Poplar, tempo and Pioneer engines never wound laughing .
                It's just that the OTRK should be simple and cheap like a Kalashnikov assault rifle. Because there is a steel engine.
                And say thank you to those people that they did not "wind" the engine for the RK "Thunder-2", even though they were driven there in three shifts.

                And this is what Russia owes for? For the fact that they were thrown by the Saudis, having stopped funding, or because they have forgotten how to do their job?
                there was an attempt to lift the An-112 into the air

                There was no such attempt. An-112 has never been in hardware.
                Of course they will, they are needed at least two planes (Il-112 and Il-114) and one helicopter (Mi-38)

                The Mi-38T is mass-produced and can fly. If there was some kind of failure on the plane, then for a new engine, this is not surprising. Failures sometimes occur on old ones.
                With what fright you began to scatter the Russian lands so generously?

                I? wassat No. These territories were scattered by the Bolsheviks with Khrushchev without any wars, and then Yeltsin and the company, with the collapse of the Union, made the republics subjects of international law. What could be returned legally returned. Russia honors the Criminal Code lol international law. Something like this.
                Do not get carried away by propaganda sources ... there is such blatant stupidity and lies (!!!) ...

                The more I see exclamation marks, the more I think about my opponent's mental state.
                1. bayard
                  bayard 20 November 2020 06: 42
                  0
                  Quote: D16
                  I'm talking about Sineva. We're talking about Sarmat and R-36M, and they are both liquid.

                  You will compare their starting weight, engine performance. The Makeyev Design Bureau has never made heavy rockets; the Sarmat is the first such experience for them. Therefore, the work is proceeding slowly and with tests of delay. And this is correct, in order to avoid mistakes and as experience is gained.
                  Quote: D16
                  That is, RT-1, RT-2P, RT2-PM have been doing at Yuzhmash since the late fifties?

                  And how successful were they? What is the resource?
                  At that time, the USSR did not even have solid fuel with normal parameters, and therefore the stake was made on liquid-propellant missiles.
                  Quote: D16
                  They were given the development and production of the RT-23.

                  Therefore, they gave it up because Yuzhmash had great experience in creating heavy missiles, and in Pavlograd there was a chemical plant №-55 for the production of all types of gunpowder and explosives, and it was authorized to produce TT and to refuel rocket stages at the same plant. And the solid-fuel branch of the Yuzhny Design Bureau and Yuzhmash was transferred to Pavlograd, having built a PMZ and the best test bench for rocket engines in the Union. The development of the TT was carried out by the Moscow Institute of Thermal Engineering, the fuel was produced at the 55th plant, and the development of the winding of the shells of rocket stages from composites was developed in Dnepropetrovsk. This technology was later used by the developers of "Pioneers" and "Topol", often coming to Dnepropetrovsk and Pavlograd to learn from the experience.
                  Do not argue with me about this, I was familiar with the designers of both the Yuzhny Design Bureau and Voskresensk (the development of Pioneers and Topol).
                  The first success in the solid fuel theme was achieved by the Yuzhnoye Design Bureau. A real success.
                  All the previous can be considered just experiments and stuffing cones.
                  Quote: D16
                  Naturally, the production of 1-2 stages of a similar in characteristics R-39 was also transferred to Yuzhmash. Then the R-39UTTKh began to make themselves.

                  Not production, but joint development. Makeyevtsy never worked with TT and therefore did not risk it, but joined forces with the more experienced Yuzhny Design Bureau.
                  And later, precisely because of the loss from the cooperation of Pavlograd, the program to create a modernized version of the R-39 - R-39UTTH, failed. Therefore, the "Sharks" had to be left without missiles, and now they are being written off. The Makeevites themselves could not do anything without cooperation, and they did not expect it. Only the USSR with all its potential was capable of this.

                  Quote: D16
                  Well, of course. Poplar, tempo and Pioneer engines never wound

                  I will not say anything about the "Temp", except that it has a 2 nd stage, nevertheless, liquid. But the rest learned how to wind in Pavlograd, Votkinsk residents were frequent guests there.
                  Quote: D16
                  It's just that the OTRK should be simple and cheap like a Kalashnikov assault rifle. Because there is a steel engine.

                  Yes, not for this!
                  Initially, they wanted to wind the engine and the order for its development was given just to Yuzhny and Pavlograd, together with the documentation for the Iskander, already in bourgeois times, but then they decided to refuse cooperation - for political reasons and because of the obstacles to this cooperation.
                  So they made it the old fashioned way - from steel.
                  And in Ukraine later they tried to make their own OTRK, there were several attempts, but funding was not really allocated. It's for the best.
                  Quote: D16
                  And this is what Russia owes for? For the fact that they were thrown by the Saudis, having stopped funding, or because they have forgotten how to do their job?

                  Or maybe the Saudis threw it because "the blacksmith has disassembled the whole carriage and is in no hurry to assemble"?
                  And Russia now "does not owe anyone", it only pays to everyone ... who is told. For fines and lawsuits, forgives debts, places money in hostile securities ... And for those who shed blood for it and risked their lives ... no, "shouldn't do anything."
                  Quote: D16
                  There was no such attempt. An-112 has never been in hardware.

                  Do we portray Dunno-Misunderstanding?
                  Il-112 was meant - it is assembled in Voronezh.
                  He couldn't even take off.
                  Because of the engine.
                  There, the plane itself is crude (with an advantage) and the engines, so this plane will not work out soon, although the troops needed it yesterday.
                  Quote: D16
                  The Mi-38T is mass-produced and can fly.

                  And produced a lot?
                  Serially?
                  The quantity that was not even produced - ordered, in good times was called a pre-production batch.
                  But I remember this helicopter in the layout from the mid-80s ... a long road to the sky ...
                  Quote: D16
                  No. These territories were scattered by the Bolsheviks and Khrushchev without any wars.

                  Khrushchev was not a Bolshevik, he was a Trotskyist. And these territories were scattered not even by the "Bolsheviks", but by the Provisional Government, breaking up the state and the army so that the outskirts of the Empire flew in different directions. And the Bolsheviks, already during the Civil War and WWII, collected / sewed these fragments back, already within the framework of the new state, and in the status of union republics.
                  Only at the All-Union Referendum, over 80% of the citizens of the USSR voted to preserve the USSR. So all subsequent actions of Gorbachev (gave freedom to the Baltic republics) and Yeltsin (a conspiracy in Belovezhskaya Pushcha, from which not even a single written evidence of the "dissolution of the USSR" has survived) have the same legitimacy as Tikhonovskaya's actions today.

                  Quote: D16
                  ... Russia honors the Criminal Code

                  Does he honor? lol
                  Why does not he imprison corrupt officials?
                  Quote: D16
                  The more I see exclamation marks, the more I think about my opponent's mental state.

                  But this is a diagnosis for you.
                  Think less about this, otherwise thoughts may come true in your reality.
                  Be careful .
                  And they are healthy.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                  2. D16
                    D16 20 November 2020 21: 41
                    0
                    And produced a lot?
                    Serially?
                    The quantity that was not even produced - ordered, in good times was called a pre-production batch.
                    But I remember this helicopter in the layout from the mid-80s ... a long road to the sky ...

                    As many have ordered, they will do so much. MO is no longer needed. And the others are quite satisfied with the cheaper Mi-8 (17). I don’t understand why it was changed. But they started the topic back in the USSR, and then it became a pity to quit.
                  3. D16
                    D16 20 November 2020 23: 51
                    0
                    You will compare their starting weight, engine performance. The Makeyev Design Bureau has never made heavy rockets, the Sarmat is the first such experience for them.

                    In terms of energy and mass perfection and the density of the layout, Sineva covers the Voevoda like a hot water bottle.
                    And how successful were they? What is the resource?

                    Intercontinental RT2Ps were on duty from 71 to 91 years. Their warranty 15 years worked. As well as the R-23UTTKh as part of the BZHRK. The fuel was based on butyl rubber.
                    Therefore, they gave it away because Yuzhmash had a great experience in creating heavy missiles

                    Can you tell us more about heavy TT missiles from Yuzhny to R-23? lol
                    There was no such experience there. It was developed by the whole country, and production was placed in on. So are the helicopter engines.
                    The TT was developed by the Moscow Institute of Heat Engineering

                    That's it. So from which rockets the engines were wound in Dnepropetrovsk, if NPO Soyuz (NII-1) for MIT engines (Temp2S, Pioneer) has been developing composite bodies since the late 60s. After all, Temp2S was adopted in 1971.
                    The first success in the solid fuel theme was achieved by the Yuzhnoye Design Bureau. A real success.

                    The first TT rocket Yuzhmash put into service was the RT-23UTTH. By that time, the MIT Temp2S had been destroyed 4 years ago under START2. It sounds strange, but this is exactly the sign of success.
                    And later, precisely because of the loss from the cooperation of Pavlograd, the program to create a modernized version of the R-39 - R-39UTTH, failed.

                    Not for this. Promising programs are not closed after three starts. And it's good that they closed it. Project 955 did not become another hunchback.
                    I will not say anything about the "Temp", except that it has a 2 nd stage, it seems, nevertheless, it is liquid.

                    No. It was Yangelevskaya RT-20. They were still unfinished to frighten the guests at the November 65 parade. The military took him away. They did not want to carry hydrazine to the PGRK.
                    Yes, not for this!
                    Initially, they wanted to wind the engine and the order for its development was given just to Yuzhny and Pavlograd, together with the documentation for Iskander

                    Well, of course. Iskander's developer never used composite engine housings, either in Tochka or Oka. With their technologies, they met the requirements of the MO. So why do they need composite housings?
                    Or maybe the Saudis threw it because "the blacksmith has disassembled the whole carriage and is in no hurry to assemble"?

                    Need not be passed off as virtue. I think two factors played a role:
                    1. The Saud was not up to Yuzhnash in the light of the current oil prices and the wars close by.
                    2. At Yuzhmash, the last composite body was made 30 years ago. Those who did this either retired or joined the majority.
                    And Russia now "does not owe anyone", it only pays to everyone ... who is told. For fines and claims, forgives debts,

                    Everyone forgives debts, it is not Russia that pays, but Gazprom. They shod him unpretentiously. But in Europe he is not a host, but a guest. I could have slammed the door and left, but I didn’t. Hope to earn more. In general, an adult and balanced approach. The main thing is that they do not step on the same rake.
                    And those who shed blood for her and risked their lives ... no, "nothing should."

                    If some individuals decided that they shed blood for Russia, this does not mean that Russia thinks so.
                    Khrushchev was not a Bolshevik, he was a Trotskyist

                    He was the general secretary who handed over the Russian Crimea to Ukraine. The good thing is that on the rights of autonomy.
                    And the Bolsheviks, already during the Civil War and WWII, collected / sewed these fragments back, already within the framework of the new state, and in the status of union republics.

                    What we have sewn is what we have.
                    Why does not he imprison corrupt officials?

                    Plants by court order
                    Be careful .
                    And they are healthy.

                    Have a nice one you too.
                  4. bayard
                    bayard 21 November 2020 04: 21
                    0
                    Quote: D16
                    If some individuals decided that they shed blood for Russia, this does not mean that Russia thinks so.

                    How nice it is for modern Russia ...
                    Hence all the resulting problems of her present.
                    The fish rots from the head.
  • DrEng527
    DrEng527 18 November 2020 17: 42
    -1
    Quote: bayard
    if memory serves - Americium.

    why not california bully further the usual delirium of the officer's daughter bully
  • Cruorvult
    Cruorvult 16 November 2020 07: 16
    +5
    It's simple. The Americans withdrew from the treaty exactly after China rolled out a new anti-ship missile with a declared range of 1000 km ground-based at the parade. And then they shouted that Russia should put pressure on China so that they would be included in this treaty, but China sent them.
  • Blackmokona
    Blackmokona 16 November 2020 09: 35
    +2
    Well, they claim that Iskander is violating the treaty, and thus they need to go out in order to create answers.
    By the way, Iskander flew further than the declared performance characteristics in one of the unsuccessful tests
    1. ZEMCH
      ZEMCH 16 November 2020 13: 32
      +1
      Quote: BlackMokona
      Well, they claim that Iskander is violating the treaty, and thus they need to go out in order to create answers.
      By the way, Iskander flew further than the declared performance characteristics in one of the unsuccessful tests

      It is possible in more detail, I seemed to be present at all the tests))) its exact performance characteristics are secret, this is to the word about "declared performance characteristics", only the export version is published openly, which is suitable for non-proliferation of missile weapons wink
      1. Blackmokona
        Blackmokona 16 November 2020 15: 36
        +1
        Such cases
        From the message of the press service of the Ministry of Defense of the Republic of Kazakhstan:

        The wreckage of one of the missiles fell outside the designated areas. There was no explosion. In the area of ​​the fall in the Bayganinsky district of the Aktobe region there are no victims and destruction. The situation is not dangerous for the population. The fall area is cordoned off by police. Clarification of circumstances and reasons will be carried out by the Kazakh-Russian commission under the akimat (administration - approx. “VO”) of the Aktobe region.

        The Bayganinsky district of the Aktobe region, to which the rocket flew, is located outside the 500-km zone, which was originally defined as the limit. Pictures from the crash site of the test rocket appeared on the network, as well as data on how much distance it eventually covered. According to the published data, the Iskander-M OTRK missile covered a distance of about 627 km. This is more than the stated performance characteristics.
        1. ZEMCH
          ZEMCH 16 November 2020 18: 46
          +1
          Quote: BlackMokona
          This is more than the stated performance characteristics.

          It was like that, but the starting point was different and the goals of the tests, it should not have flown out of the zone, but ...))) wink
          This was written according to open sources, but once again the performance characteristics of the Russian Iskander are not published
          1. Blackmokona
            Blackmokona 16 November 2020 20: 12
            -1
            But for the US intelligence it became known and they decided to make their own missile, and to withdraw from the treaty announcing that the official performance characteristics of Iskander are not true
            1. ZEMCH
              ZEMCH 16 November 2020 20: 25
              0
              Quote: BlackMokona
              But for the US intelligence it became known and they decided to make their own missile, and to withdraw from the treaty announcing that the official performance characteristics of Iskander are not true

              US intelligence works in a peculiar way, laughing for them, a lot of information is now available only from open sources, the VO website, by the way, is one of them, they monitor it, believe me))) wink
              All launches are carried out in windows not accessible to space exploration, this is the norm! Everything else is speculation by their analysts! They missed so much that it's time to think about their capabilities, both for us and for China! laughing
              1. Blackmokona
                Blackmokona 16 November 2020 20: 41
                -2
                Therefore, the United States has long had stealth satellites created under the Misty program, and a bunch of traitors in our guide which is better and more reliable
                1. ZEMCH
                  ZEMCH 16 November 2020 21: 12
                  -1
                  Quote: BlackMokona
                  Therefore, the United States has long had stealth satellites created under the Misty program, and a bunch of traitors in our guide which is better and more reliable

                  About Misty has been known since the 90s, they can be clearly seen in the meter range, we track the spacecraft from an area of ​​5 cm per square meter! As for the traitors, they do not know very much about the tests, n-th number of launchers are set up at the test site, and only one of them shoots at the right time! You can see the polygon area in the wiki, this is enough for analysis and understanding that the satellite survey sector does not cover everything
                  1. Blackmokona
                    Blackmokona 16 November 2020 22: 17
                    -3
                    1) Stealth Misty works differently, they are not officially taken out. And our satellite tracking systems even Phobos Grunt were looking for a bunch of days. What can we say about the satellite that was not taken out, and the trajectory of which they do not know.
                    2) Traitors sit in leadership and lead trials
                    1. ZEMCH
                      ZEMCH 16 November 2020 22: 49
                      0
                      Quote: BlackMokona
                      1) Stealth Misty works differently, they are not officially taken out. And our satellite tracking systems even Phobos Grunt were looking for a bunch of days. What can we say about the satellite that was not taken out, and the trajectory of which they do not know.


                      The first satellite (USA-53 or 1990-019B, 19 kg) launched under the program was launched on March 600, 1 by the Atlantis spacecraft as part of the STS-1990 mission. Objects associated with the satellite collapsed on March 36, 31, but the satellite was sighted and tracked later that year and in the mid-1990s. A second satellite (USA-1990 or 144-1999A) was launched on May 028, 22, and by 1999, a third satellite was scheduled to launch in 2004. Circumstantial evidence suggested that a third satellite could have been a Delta IV Heavy payload. a launch, designated NROL-2009, which launched in June 15. This launch delivered the payload to the geostationary orbit, but, taking into account the hypothesis of stealth (deception), there was still the likelihood of the appearance of other payloads, tracking the trajectory of the upper stage, other spacecraft were identified and taken under observation.

                      2) Traitors sit in leadership and lead trials.


                      Do you think that the President or the Minister of Defense and the Chief of the General Staff are traitors? The NGSH and the Minister of Defense personally report to the President about the tests, there are no notified persons between them. Believe me, the circle of people who know all the information about testing the latest weapons is very limited!
                    2. Blackmokona
                      Blackmokona 16 November 2020 22: 52
                      -1
                      1) These are the ones that found and found them by the way fans of which over dofiga, and not offitsivny means of observation.
                      2) Open any topic on topvar with Russian internal news.
                    3. ZEMCH
                      ZEMCH 16 November 2020 23: 27
                      0
                      Quote: BlackMokona
                      1) These are the ones that found and found them by the way fans of which over dofiga, and not offitsivny means of observation.

                      And they just told you about what we see and track, and depending on what you call "official means of observation" (the grammar of the original is preserved, although I know what is correct "official")
                      Quote: BlackMokona
                      2) Open any topic on topvar with Russian internal news.

                      Do not read topics with internal Russian news on topvar and you will be happy and calm for many years! 80% of topics and commentators pour "g ... well on the fan"!
                      I have been working with the state defense order for more than 12 years and I know firsthand the state of the defense industry and the Armed Forces!
                      I take information not from the topvar's website, but from reports and personal checks!
                      My employees analyze foreign sites, more than half (and maybe more) are not known to both readers and writers on VO, and believe me, if information ("misinformation" does not count) about the tests left, then the "partners" and hypersound would fly and Poseidon would not frighten! laughing
  • bayard
    bayard 16 November 2020 16: 09
    +2
    This is probably about the case when the Iskander flew over 700 kilometers, instead of the maximum 500, permitted by the INF Treaty.
    And the fact that the range reserve is 50 percent is good.
    1. ZEMCH
      ZEMCH 16 November 2020 18: 50
      0
      Quote: bayard
      And the fact that the range reserve is 50 percent is good.

      we are limited only by the INF Treaty, which we try to comply with in the European part of the country, at least. so as not to anger the "European partners"
      1. bayard
        bayard 16 November 2020 23: 59
        +1
        The fact that we are so polite and caring about the Europeans is good, but the United States, after acquiring new medium-range missiles in its arsenals, will not fail to place them in Europe and Southeast Asia. So you have to have everything of your own by that time. Moreover, in stock, not in development.
        In addition to the United States in the Far East against us there is also Japan, there is China, which has nowhere to do with these MRBMs, there are North and South Korea ... And there is our empty Far East and Eastern Siberia.
        To stop these threats, the most effective and economically justified means is precisely the MRBM in special equipment.
        Yes, there is already a "Dagger" in this theater, but its capabilities are limited, and if the airfield / airfields are disabled, it will not remain at all. Caliber cruise missiles from land-based launchers will not do all the weather either - they are vulnerable to air defense aviation. But the MRBM, in addition to the existing Iskander, will very well balance our capabilities with the existing threats.
        And a two-stage rocket based on the Iskander engine (1st stage) and Dagger (2nd stage) would be very useful both in the Far East and in the European theater of operations.
        And in Cuba.
        1. ZEMCH
          ZEMCH 17 November 2020 00: 04
          +1
          Quote: bayard
          And a two-stage rocket based on the Iskander engine (1st stage) and Dagger (2nd stage) would be very useful both in the Far East and in the European theater of operations.
          And in Cuba.

          Here I completely agree with you, but they will not listen to you and me))) And so Iskander is available for upgrading in range and in a less expensive configuration than you described wink
          1. bayard
            bayard 17 November 2020 00: 40
            0
            Quote: ZEMCH
            Iskander is available for upgrading in range and in a less expensive configuration than you described.

            Is it in a one-stage version? But the range will be about 1000, well, maybe a little more kilometers. And the two-stage option opens up prospects of 2000 km. and this is exactly what we need.
            1. ZEMCH
              ZEMCH 17 November 2020 00: 44
              +1
              Quote: bayard
              Is it in a one-stage version? But the range will be about 1000, well, maybe a little more kilometers. And the two-stage option opens up prospects of 2000 km. and this is exactly what we need.

              Then remodel the launcher, for solutions at ranges exceeding 1000 km there is another option)))
              As soon as the rhetoric about the INF Treaty arises again and the states begin to declare their readiness to put into service the BRMD and the MRBM, then we will have to show our decision in metal)))
              1. D16
                D16 17 November 2020 18: 01
                +1
                we will have to show our decision in metal)))

                An expensive option has already been shown. RS26 "Frontier". A relatively cheap option is the modernization of 9M723 and 9M729 or its replacement with 3M14. By the way, the "Bastion" launcher is what the doctor prescribed for "long" rockets.
                1. ZEMCH
                  ZEMCH 17 November 2020 18: 07
                  0
                  Quote: D16
                  An expensive option has already been shown. RS26 "Frontier". A relatively cheap option is the modernization of 9M723 and 9M729 or its replacement with 3M14. By the way, the "Bastion" launcher is what the doctor prescribed for "long" rockets.

                  Plus, but I will leave it without comment. For nizya !!! wink
  • Muddy Seeing ORACLE
    Muddy Seeing ORACLE 16 November 2020 13: 48
    0
    Probably they have a secret super weapon, so they blur their eyes with all kinds of new old stuff ...
  • Yuri V.A
    Yuri V.A 16 November 2020 13: 53
    +1
    Why did they decide that the Americans did not have any developments other than the missiles mentioned in the article? One of the claims from the Russian Federation to the states for violating the INF Treaty was the use by the "partners" of a whole heap of old models as target missiles, in terms of performance characteristics comparable to the prohibited class.
  • Megatron
    Megatron 16 November 2020 23: 00
    +2
    You shouldn't laugh. With rockets and trampolines already laughed.
    Mask's products are flying with might and main.
  • pereselenec
    pereselenec 19 November 2020 01: 28
    -1
    Quote: mark1
    Only one thing is not clear - why did they (the Americans) have to leave the INF Treaty without having "nichrome" in their hearts?

  • Proton
    Proton 16 November 2020 06: 12
    +8
    I saw a lot of sarcasm and irony in the article.
    I don't think one should underestimate a potential adversary. Not quite stupid people sit in analytical departments and not everything is done for the sake of "cutting".
    1. Smirnoff
      Smirnoff 16 November 2020 06: 58
      +7
      I also think - they can pretend to be burdocks, and then give out a surprise. Better to be prepared.
    2. Hermit21
      Hermit21 16 November 2020 10: 00
      0
      a lot of sarcasm and irony

      Like something bad.
      don't underestimate a potential adversary

      And overestimate too.
      not everything is done for the sake of "cutting"

      Just make it out of what is
  • Daniil Konovalenko
    Daniil Konovalenko 16 November 2020 08: 05
    +5
    Yes, they are not so hopeless as it is written in the article .. We love to "throw hats" ..
  • nemez
    nemez 16 November 2020 08: 55
    0
    It is not necessary for them to have, there are partners, gritbrit and turkey. And the rate is on them.
  • Vale-90
    Vale-90 16 November 2020 09: 36
    +5
    The author gored everyone and everything. The same "Pershing-2" had an outrageous accuracy of 30 m. I still wonder how they did it. And shrank in size, in comparison with the same "Pioneer".
    1. mark1
      mark1 16 November 2020 09: 52
      +6
      The difference in range is almost 3 times + 3 BG on the "Pioneer".
      Quote: Vale-90
      And shrank in size, in comparison with the same "Pioneer".

      Quote: Vale-90
      exorbitant accuracy-30 m .. I am still surprised

      Different tasks, different requirements for accuracy (+ their technological superiority, where can we go without it), but we had both the R-27K and the Aerophone in our work, and the hell knows what else, so we could fend off if we wanted to. The only problem is that they are striking our territory and we are striking their allies.
    2. Vadim237
      Vadim237 16 November 2020 22: 46
      +1
      The Pershing 2 rocket was a real masterpiece of rocketry and created this miracle in the late 70s - it is no secret that the Americans already bypassed us well then, and on satellite guidance systems, TTRD gyroscopes to the electronic base.
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 16 November 2020 09: 43
    0
    The whole saga with the US withdrawal from the INF Treaty apparently was born from the fact that Trump decided that he was a real ruler. Like a general director of a large holding, they say, he issues orders based on the analysis given by specialized executors, and all employees carry out these orders. And they don't do it - under the backside with a knee!
    But the American overt power is arranged in a completely different way, and for the government in the country it is necessary to work differently. In general, Trump asked military analysts a question - do we have any developments on such missiles? And they, as they are accustomed to, got away from the protocol "leader" with the usual - doo! doooh! Kaneshna is, coach! Our rockets are the most rocket-driven in the world! Absolutely not assuming that this talking head will get into the affairs of the army seriously.
    And Trump took and tore up the international treaty! The consultation process on such a topic should take many months, and among military experts, not politicians. Politicians can only ask the question - is it possible to do what they want. After that, smart heads decide whether this can be done at all, and then categorically declare to politicians what and how they should say. It is generally impossible to show any independence in this matter, and the president is not in power at all in really serious issues.
    Trump simply did not understand this then, and is not sure he understands now. What our scholars call the "deep state", if used skillfully, is a monstrously effective thing. Do not go it to the pediment ...
  • Vale-90
    Vale-90 16 November 2020 10: 27
    +4
    Quote: mark1
    could fend off

    I'm all for, only this "subjunctive mood".
    What is it now. I remember everything Lefort ...
    1. Mikhail3
      Mikhail3 16 November 2020 17: 36
      +1
      And Lefort, according to this quote, was a traitor, but the most vile, it turns out ... That is the laugh - Russia did not have the slightest trade benefits from the "Baltic wars"! Not half an inch! Since the waterway is immeasurably more profitable than the overland one! And Russian rivers, suddenly, do not flow to the Baltic. And to carry goods to the Neva and Ladoga in carts - to go broke, which the insane state of Peter did.
      River routes on our land lead to the Black Sea, that is, to the Russian Sea. And from there to the Mediterranean, to the very center of world trade of that time. That is why the wiser descendants were so eager to take the Straits for themselves, and the Anglo-Saxons did not give us those straits. An interesting picture opens with this quote. Explains a lot.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 17 November 2020 12: 01
          +1
          There is such a thing in the head called the brain. Turn it on sometimes, cool ...
          1. Cyril G ...
            Cyril G ... 17 November 2020 22: 59
            +1
            It doesn't work out ... wassat
      2. The eye of the crying
        The eye of the crying 16 November 2020 21: 02
        0
        Quote: Mikhail3
        Since the waterway is immeasurably more profitable than the overland one! And Russian rivers, suddenly, do not flow to the Baltic.


        They do not flow even now. But the largest Russian ports are in the Baltic.
        1. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 17 November 2020 12: 07
          0
          Yes. And who are our first economies in the world? See how funny the coolest is the USA! Do not lose their own industry in a dull craving for world hegemony, China would have nothing to do. Why so? Because all the industrial power of the United States is located along the sea coasts and large rivers. Sea transportation is the most profitable because it is immeasurably cheaper than land transportation. That's what smart people call it - "marine economy".
          And our goods and resources make huge ends on land, which are expensive to transport. Uncompetitive. And ports are in the Baltic. This is by design. Therefore, they did not give the Straits to us, the whole Western civilization gathered and attacked in a crowd. Our transportation is crushed by this narrow neck. So we have to drag cargo overland, to the damn Baltic, adding the price, adding, adding ... until the price makes us beggars.
          1. The eye of the crying
            The eye of the crying 17 November 2020 12: 50
            0
            Quote: Mikhail3
            Therefore, the Straits did not give us


            The Syrian Express shows that no one is stopping Russia from using the straits.

            Quote: Mikhail3
            all Western civilization gathered, and attacked en masse


            On whom?

            Quote: Mikhail3
            So you have to drag overland, to the damn Baltic, cargo


            Russia's main trade is with Germany, Holland, and Britain. They are stupidly closer to them from the Baltic.
            1. Cyril G ...
              Cyril G ... 17 November 2020 23: 01
              0
              The Syrian Express shows that no one is stopping Russia from using the straits.

              You see, the question is, the right of passage of warships through the straits was won back by us.
              1. The eye of the crying
                The eye of the crying 17 November 2020 23: 09
                0
                It was about trade. But, in any case, the right of way exists both now and for a long time (at least since the Montreux convention). And the ports in the Baltic are the largest and more and more every year.
                1. Cyril G ...
                  Cyril G ... 18 November 2020 02: 00
                  0
                  I am too lazy to climb the traffic flows now, but grain imports go through Novorossiysk. And more.
                  1. The eye of the crying
                    The eye of the crying 18 November 2020 02: 13
                    0
                    Does Russia import grain? And export, quite possibly, goes through Novorossiysk. Wheat is grown in the south of Russia, exported to Turkey, Africa, Asia. You can't take it across the Baltic.
                    1. Cyril G ...
                      Cyril G ... 18 November 2020 11: 22
                      0
                      Ugh damn sorry, I wrote. I slept on the go. Export of course.
            2. Mikhail3
              Mikhail3 18 November 2020 09: 25
              0
              Nobody interferes. The price is just, and as soon as the traffic flow increases, different problems begin. Nothing serious, such as an accident, but violations of contracts, missed deadlines, etc. etc. I can't trade normally. And pulling in warships (not related to the topic) every time is a lottery.
              To Russia. T.N. "Crimean War".
              Yes. The main trade is there. A very, very sorry. It could extend much further, especially in the old days, the times of Lefort, when it was critically important, and when the main money was not with these, then rogue.
              Moreover, before the revolution, our grain merchants had mountains of dough. Collecting goods across the country is like a tree. First, carts (leaves), then small branches - small rivers on planks, then larger branches, then a trunk - the Volga, for example. This is how the country lives. Even now, the railways are not able to come close in terms of profitability to river transportation, let alone sea.
              Military pelvis ... hehe ...
              1. The eye of the crying
                The eye of the crying 18 November 2020 11: 25
                0
                You have your own reality.
                1. Mikhail3
                  Mikhail3 19 November 2020 09: 13
                  0
                  If you work hard on yourself, developing your thinking and diligently comprehending physics with mathematics, one day you will penetrate into "my reality". She's not mine. It is for those who are capable, love and know how to think, observing the principles and laws of scientific thinking, namely, there are no authorities, no general opinion, no trends or anything like that. There are only physical laws and experience as a strict test, a measure of reality. However, I must warn you. This reality is uncomfortable. Here you will not hide behind lies, delusions dear to your heart and convenient omissions. The light of knowledge and science is merciless ...
                  1. The eye of the crying
                    The eye of the crying 19 November 2020 12: 44
                    0
                    Quote: Mikhail3
                    If you work hard on yourself, developing thinking and diligently comprehending physics with mathematics


                    Okay. What areas of mathematics and physics should I comprehend? Nuclear physics, quantum physics, solid state physics, optics, radiophysics, astrophysics, something else? What kind of mathematics - algebra, topology, probability theory, discrete mathematics, category theory, or something else? smile
                    1. Mikhail3
                      Mikhail3 19 November 2020 14: 53
                      0
                      School textbook. The very beginning. They teach you how to think correctly. Lay the foundations for thinking. If they "went" with you, the brain will work. Well, no, never ...
                      1. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 19 November 2020 14: 55
                        0
                        Well, after the school textbook - what? Or have you not advanced beyond the boundaries of the school physics course? smile
                      2. Mikhail3
                        Mikhail3 19 November 2020 14: 58
                        0
                        After the school textbook, what you are interested in) I made some progress. Literally a bit. Just enough to realize how ignorant, stupid and I understand little. Human life is so short, filled with a struggle for survival, and there are so many wonders and wonders around ...
                      3. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 19 November 2020 15: 00
                        0
                        Quote: Mikhail3
                        After the school textbook, what you are interested in) I made some progress. Literally a bit.


                        I wonder what textbooks in physics and mathematics you need to read to get into your reality. Both physics and mathematics have many areas that are rather loosely connected.
                      4. Mikhail3
                        Mikhail3 19 November 2020 15: 03
                        0
                        It is painful, difficult to think, it makes people grow old and even die. You don't even try. It's a pity. The only freedom that a person really has is freedom of thought, the very thing that people used to call "the flight of thought." Not a flight of fantasy, but thoughts, a wonderful thing in fact. Sympathize with you.
                      5. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 19 November 2020 15: 09
                        0
                        Quote: Mikhail3
                        It is painful, difficult to think, it makes people grow old and even die.


                        It's not the same for everybody. Don't generalize your experience to everyone.

                        Quote: Mikhail3
                        Sympathize with you.


                        As I understand it, you will not name specific branches of physics and mathematics. By the way ... the mathematics taught at school is very different from the mathematics taught at the university.
                      6. Mikhail3
                        Mikhail3 19 November 2020 15: 10
                        0
                        No, I will not name it, and I explained why. You just don't want to think. In general, your trolling has already turned into a flood. It's completely boring.
                      7. The eye of the crying
                        The eye of the crying 19 November 2020 15: 13
                        0
                        Quote: Mikhail3
                        No, I will not name it, and I explained why.


                        Because you have not advanced beyond the school curriculum. For some reason, I'm sure that if you dig deeper, you will discover such depths of alternative science ... it's even good that you dodged the conversation.
  • Vale-90
    Vale-90 17 November 2020 21: 42
    -1
    Nothing ... there is still time.
    Just in the vein, I listen to music and it was horrible when I was typing the text - "Oh, how tired I was with you, my attempt number five" ... Honestly, I did not invent it. request
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      2. Vale-90
        Vale-90 19 November 2020 00: 25
        -1
        Cubanoid itching to do everything. Blocked on Courage, now you shit here?
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 19 November 2020 00: 48
          0
          Semyonov, you are just a star, well, just a pearl in my collection of Internet alternatively reasonable ones, which I am ready to give you 15 minutes a day. You just delight me. You are in vain running around the caches and fiercely Russophobic, you would look great in the Kunstkamera collection. And I will forgive a cubanoid, such uh offended as you should feel sorry for in Russia.

          Yes, and what about crap you are in vain. How can I care about you. You are a real Stakhanovite in foul content.
          By the way! You probably didn't go to the good doctor today, but in vain. HERE already ran back to the VO and put another mountain of feces. No. All the same, go - suddenly they will help you. Wet sheets are fine.
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  • pyc.arpeccop tornado 150
    pyc.arpeccop tornado 150 16 November 2020 12: 51
    +1
    Is everything going well in Russia, unlike the US with medium-range missiles? But, the distance covered by the rocket in order to correspond to the fulfillment of combat missions, the Americans have changed significantly, since thirty to forty years ago. Now, the territory that was previously within reach of the Pershing enters the reach zone of the targets set by the missiles now in service. To reach what you want on the far edge of the table, you do not have to reach out, you can drag the tablecloth.
    Poland, Romania, the Baltic countries, it will be closer to Germany.
    Again, I must say about the efforts expended to achieve the intended goals in the field of defense capability in general. The incommensurability of the resources of Russia and the United States in economic terms makes the current position of America more advantageous in the performance of their military tasks.
    Let's look at the goals of the two state ideologies - they are similar. Let the economy develop for the prosperous life of people using market mechanisms. And market mechanisms in the age of globalism, transnational corporations, concentration of capital and, finally, the significant role of information technology, now these market mechanisms are more effectively used in countries with a traditional market system. The well-being of our people, for the most part, is not observed. And if the question again arises about the extreme loads of the entire population for performing defense tasks, who will perform these tasks better?
    And if it comes to increasing the number and quality of nuclear warheads, creating new types of carriers, the very market mechanisms and the brain resource selected by the West earlier around the world will be activated. Although, something suggests that weapons will be created based on new technologies.
  • ZEMCH
    ZEMCH 16 November 2020 13: 37
    0
    An article about missiles and their capabilities to produce them, but there is no information about the existing missiles, which they use as targets for testing missile defense, these missiles are all outside the INF Treaty and fly wink
  • Falcon5555
    Falcon5555 16 November 2020 14: 11
    0
    As a result of this standardization, I suspect, they will be able to place MRBMs on destroyers. How will "Kremlin-Putin" respond? .. sad
  • voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 16 November 2020 19: 13
    +1
    "The fact is that the weight of this missile is only 1500 kg, that is, more than half that of the Iskander-M missile launcher ////
    ----
    Compare the weight of Laura (1600 kg), recently used in Karabakh and Iskander.
    Laura throws 500 kg of warheads for 400 km. Reduce the warhead - the radius will increase.
    1. Cyril G ...
      Cyril G ... 18 November 2020 00: 43
      0
      Compare.
      Questions immediately arise, what is the maximum speed of the OTBR Laura, what is the probability of her breaking through the missile defense, etc. etc. Miracles do not actually happen. And to compare based on a pair of parameters, it's really funny
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 18 November 2020 01: 29
        +1
        The same 40 km trajectory altitude, the same 8 MAX speed at this altitude, the same quasi-ballistic trajectory.
        Only the body is made of plastic, a minimum of iron, everything is light, modern.
        1. Cyril G ...
          Cyril G ... 18 November 2020 01: 57
          0
          Is it written somewhere in English / Russian (I don't care which one) in some serious edition? And then I somehow did not find, but alas, I don’t believe anyone at all.
  • Vale-90
    Vale-90 16 November 2020 19: 27
    0
    Quote: mark1
    Different tasks, different requirements for accuracy (+ their technological superiority, where without it)

    Not to accuracy, but to the likelihood of defeat. The radius (power. BG) was selected for accuracy, and not per revolution.
    So surpass who got in the way? They shot and dispersed science in 1918, and then they are surprised.
    In which country is there a common phrase, "Lousy intellectual".? Here is the attitude towards "smart strongly" laughing
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  • Lexus
    Lexus 16 November 2020 23: 27
    0
    For some reason, the Americans do not know anything about their "hopelessness". request