Military Review

In South Korea, launched the second diesel-electric submarine of national design with VNEU

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In South Korea, launched the second diesel-electric submarine of national design with VNEU

The second diesel-electric submarine of its own design with VNEU was launched in South Korea. According to the Korea Times, the ceremony took place at the Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering shipyard on November 10, 2020 on Kojedo Island.


The new diesel-electric submarine belongs to the KSS-III project, fully developed by South Korean specialists. The beginning of the development of submarines of this project started in the early 2010s. The lead submarine, named "Dosan An Changho", was launched in September 2018. The second sub, launched on November 10, is named An Mu after a Korean independence fighter who fought against Japan.

Currently, two more similar submarines are in various stages of construction. In total, the South Korean Navy plans to receive 9 submarines of the KSS-III type. These ships should come to replace the ones currently in the fleet German diesel-electric submarines of project 209/1200 built in 1980-90s.

According to the published data, the surface displacement is 3358 tons, the underwater displacement is 3705 tons, the length is 83,3 meters, and the width is 9,6 meters. The submarine has an anaerobic setup, details of which were not disclosed. It is stated that thanks to VNEU, the submarine can stay under water for up to 20 days. Underwater speed - 20 knots. The cruising range is declared at 10 thousand nautical miles. Crew - 50 people.

The submarine has six non-nuclear vertical ballistic missile launchers.
Photos used:
RoKN
69 comments
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  1. Borik
    Borik 13 November 2020 16: 09
    16
    Korea can, but Russia cannot finish its VNEU in any way.
    1. Proxima
      Proxima 13 November 2020 16: 51
      +1
      The article does not indicate what type of VNEU, because there are a lot of them: Stirling, electrochemical, steam generator and so on. I'd like to know.. request
      1. Machito
        Machito 13 November 2020 17: 14
        15
        South Korea is building diesel-electric submarines with VNEU faster than classic Russia. Sadness. But our yachts are cooler. Or not with us, but with our oligarchs. Are they ours?
        1. Ratmir_Ryazan
          Ratmir_Ryazan 13 November 2020 18: 26
          -4
          South Korea builds faster because there are no whiners like you there and people are not trying to blame their failures and problems on the power and rich people, which are not few in South Korea.

          But they have access to Western technologies and they already have a developed industry due to the fact that in exchange for their bases in this country, the United States allowed South Korea to sell its goods to the United States, and also due to the fact that the United States economically supported South Korea immediately after wars of the 50s.

          South Korea today is a leader in civil shipbuilding for several years already, the country # 1 in the construction of ships of various types, and we are restoring our shipbuilding from the ruins of the 90s !!! We have just started building ships and ships, and under constant pressure from the West !!!

          But to people like you, take it out and put it, that it was better and faster in all directions at once than in those countries that have spent decades developing these directions.

          Where do you come from only? Have you even done something with your own hands?

          You yourself are clearly not a worker and not an engineer of a shipbuilding enterprise, but you turn your nose up, give it to you faster.

          Maybe you can organize everything yourself faster? No?!

          Well then, at least not whine to show on the network !!!

          Rejoice at what we have now, it could be much worse.

          And if you want faster, work yourself, earn more and pay more taxes accordingly. There will be more money in the budget, we will develop faster and we will build everything faster, including ships with submarines.
          1. Charik
            Charik 13 November 2020 18: 51
            +9
            and another strong difference is that they can put the head of state in jail, but in Russia they cannot, no need
            1. already a Muscovite
              already a Muscovite 13 November 2020 19: 49
              -2
              Quote: Charik
              and another strong difference is that they can put the head of state in jail

              Because it is not presidents who rule there, but chaebols.
            2. Ratmir_Ryazan
              Ratmir_Ryazan 13 November 2020 23: 41
              0
              Well, you start from the beginning.

              In South Korea, the head of state was turned by some fortune-teller from the street and using her position for the money of corporations to solve issues.

              About this, what are you not telling?
          2. Machito
            Machito 13 November 2020 19: 11
            +3
            Have you ever been to Rublevka? And I worked there from time to time from 1988 to 2016. The ruble has grown before my eyes. And I don't need la-la. I am a communications engineer. And arms from the shoulders. In 2006, a video recorder was assembled in a garage on his knee, when there were no models at all on the market, but Nanochubais does not need Russian kulibins, you cannot cut a lot from them.
            1. StarTroopers
              StarTroopers 13 November 2020 23: 26
              +2
              I will answer you. Because the MARKET. Because in 91 YOURSELF chose it. So there is nothing to kick HERE on other "South Korea can", of course it can, when you have the whole west and money. When the government is just puppets. Do you know who is the prime minister in Korea or the president, what are they doing? Without Google, right now. Not of course, this is a vassal country, they do not make the fleet for themselves.
          3. Kuzyakin15
            Kuzyakin15 13 November 2020 19: 40
            11
            Ratmir Ruazan:
            Did you build or create anything yourself? Or is it just a master to throw slogans?
            And the 90s have ended twenty years ago, another 40 years will you refer to the doubles?
            And taxes from us, the population, are shaking regularly and without delay. So maybe it's not about us, ordinary citizens, hard workers, engineers? And in you, managers and propagandists ... us?
            1. Ratmir_Ryazan
              Ratmir_Ryazan 14 November 2020 00: 03
              -6
              I am a military pensioner, a veteran, at the same time they work (their own individual entrepreneur), pay taxes and NO NO. And I am glad when something new is being built in Russia, because there is a share in this, albeit scanty, of my labor, which I put into this through the taxes I paid.

              And people like you do not want to pay taxes, but they want everything to be no worse than in the most developed countries)).

              How can this be?

              Russia has some of the lowest taxes in the world! Income tax in the West is on average about 30%, while there is also VAT on medicine they pay and they also make contributions to pension funds and there are excise taxes and everything else, and control is many times stricter, up to criminal liability.

              At the same time, the quality of products, almost any, is higher in the West, and therefore their salaries are higher.

              And people like you are to blame for everything, it's easier for you to live and justify your failures. You can't buy normal sausage and stew in a store - it's Putin who probably makes everyone in Russia do badly, from food to clothes, shoes, cars and everything else.

              Don't whine, Kuzyakin. You have to work and work well, and you also have to pay taxes, no matter how trite it sounds, but there is no other way to prosperity.

              If you don’t pay taxes, then don’t be surprised to see holes in the roads and doctors with a penny salary extorting money from patients.
              1. strelokmira
                strelokmira 14 November 2020 03: 30
                +4
                I am a military pensioner, a veteran, while they work (their own individual entrepreneur)

                In short, another daughter of an officer from Olgino
          4. frog
            frog 13 November 2020 21: 55
            0
            Where do you come from only? Have you even done something with your own hands?

            Yes I did. And hands and head. And they didn’t let us do more. Not then, not now. For various reasons, but the result is the same. Because what you get is an inevitable waste in the course of disbursing funds. No more. Until now, if you just get puzzled, you can still do something. But who needs all this and why? This is not a world championship, nor an olympiad, not a floating Frankenstein. And in ten years we will not even be able to build soviet developments. And I know how the working offices are being destroyed. Therefore, not everything was lost, but the dull real. Unlike a variety of hamsters distributing diapers .... It's all useless. Sorry, it's boiling, it's all in vain ...
        2. nickname7
          nickname7 13 November 2020 19: 25
          +3
          But our yachts are cooler.

          These are not yachts, this is an unparalleled missile cruiser, an aircraft carrier killer disguised as a peaceful yacht. Cruisers track the AUG and are within the reach of zircons from them.
      2. Errr
        Errr 13 November 2020 20: 14
        +3
        The topic is interesting, but the article we are considering is unnecessarily shredded. It is better to read about this submarine on LJ:
        The design of a large (surface standard displacement of a boat of the first series of 3358 tons, submarine displacement of 3708 tons) non-nuclear submarine KSS-III for the South Korean Navy has been carried out since 2004 jointly by Hyundai Heavy Industries and DSME corporations, while ultimately the project was chosen as the basis last. LIG Nex1, Samsung Thales, Hanwha and STX Engine are also involved in the creation of various systems for this project, technical assistance is provided by the British companies BMT and Babcock. Initially, even the option of a boat with a nuclear power plant was considered, but in the end the submarine will have an air-independent power plant, similar to the German-style fuel cell installation used on the German project 214 (KSS-II) submarines currently under construction for the South Korean fleet. From the second series, it is assumed that the KSS-III boats will also receive the advanced South Korean-developed lithium-ion batteries.
        A source: https://bmpd.livejournal.com/4184508.html
    2. Doccor18
      Doccor18 13 November 2020 17: 33
      +8
      Quote: Borik
      Korea can, but Russia cannot finish its VNEU in any way.

      But R. Korea is one of the most loyal allies of the United States in the region.
      They plan to build 9 submarines, and Japan from 12 to 18 units, a total of more than two dozen modern submarines. And it doesn't matter who they fight against, against the Chinese Navy or against the Pacific Fleet, both will have a hard time ...
      1. TulaTokarev
        TulaTokarev 13 November 2020 19: 32
        +4
        Yes, no one will fight there, the Pacific Fleet, even against the background of the Japanese Navy, is negligible, it simply does not exist. The Japs have dozens of the most modern destroyers, dozens of submarines, and the same number of PLO aircraft, and of their own design, they also buy in the USA for a change. I am silent about the F-35 on aircraft-carrying platforms ...
        1. StarTroopers
          StarTroopers 13 November 2020 23: 28
          -3
          not among the Japs, but among the Americans. Do not lie. All politics and Japan itself are wholly and completely owned by the United States. Absolutely, from head to toe. They do not have ANY independence, only the issue in the prefecture will decide.
        2. Brancodd
          Brancodd 14 November 2020 15: 13
          0
          The Pacific Fleet, even against the background of the Japanese Navy, is negligible, it simply does not exist. The Yaps have dozens of the most modern destroyers, dozens of submarines, and the same number of PLO aircraft, moreover, of their own design, and they also buy in the USA for a change. I am silent about the F-35 on aircraft-carrying platforms ...

          Yes, sometimes silence is golden ... This is just the case
          Mitsubishi F-2 is practically an F16. And it surpasses the Su 30 CM? A total of 92 Mitsubishi F-2. Su 30 CM - about 170. Su 35 - about 100. Japan has 160 F15J against 100 Su35. In the Far East, 50 Mig 31 are concentrated. We will be able to deploy the same amount within 2 days. The new R37M air-to-air missile can be used both on the MiG31 and Su30SM and on the Su35. This missile is unprecedented both in its range of destruction (1900 km) and in speed / R37M. It surpasses even the promising one under development by JNAAM in these parameters.
          Japanese resistance will be suppressed within two weeks. Moreover, the active phase of coercion into negotiations will continue for a week. Japanese aviation and navy will suffer serious losses in the very early stages of the conflict while trying to bypass the air defense zones and coastal anti-ship complexes in the Kuril Islands and Sakhalin. But that's it, for dessert. The main argument will be the elimination of LNG terminals with non-nuclear land-based tactical missiles. To intercept the ground variant of the Zircons, they have not the slightest opportunity. The demoralizing effect, as well as the economic damage, will be of such magnitude that it may well be comparable to the use of tactical nuclear weapons. It will be over in 2 weeks. We have tested the same option, but only for oil platforms on the northern flank of NATO, in Norway and the North Sea, as well as on LNG terminals in the Netherlands, Germany, and Poland. It will be more difficult there, but in general the effect will be commensurate. So you can taste one of the 27 LNG terminals ...
          1. Korax71
            Korax71 14 November 2020 17: 15
            0
            Sergei Linnik (Bongo) has an excellent series of articles called "Will our Far East be protected by the Russian Aerospace Forces." / rvv-bd in which parallel universe it suddenly flew by almost 70k kilometers, it is completely incomprehensible. in open sources, the range is 37 km.
            1. Brancodd
              Brancodd 14 November 2020 23: 49
              0
              A typo, of course - 190 km. This is essentially. The rest is emotion. We see the entire airspace of Japan, including the southern airfields in detail. During the Vostok-2018 exercise, for 2 days we practiced the transfer of the Air Force to the airfields of the Air Defense Forces. The exercises confirmed the possibility for a specified time to form a group sufficient in number to suppress any threats from Japan. The number of permanently deployed aircraft in Primorye and Kamchatka is increasing. For example, the regiment MIg31 was restored at the Elizovo airfield in Kamchatka and at the Sokolovka airfield near Vladivostok. But this is not the main point. By and large, it makes no sense to prove something to people who project the experience of previous wars on the wars of the future. Previously, it was not possible to reach vulnerable industrial infrastructure without entering the enemy's air defense zone. Now there is such an opportunity. Not only because we have the opportunity for this, but also because such critical and absolutely vulnerable facilities have appeared.
      2. frog
        frog 13 November 2020 21: 56
        -4
        And they will also make "the world's best vaccine" for us.
  2. The leader of the Redskins
    The leader of the Redskins 13 November 2020 16: 09
    +2
    Although they scold VNEU, the thought arises - even the Koreans were able to master this controversial power plant.
    1. smart fellow
      smart fellow 13 November 2020 21: 56
      0
      And not only southern ones https://topwar.ru/156539-smi-kndr-predlagala-tajvanju-vnjeu-sobstvennoj-razrabotki-dlja-djepl.html
  3. Lech from Android.
    Lech from Android. 13 November 2020 16: 12
    +2
    We are lagging behind the Koreans in this matter, Comrade Putin ... not good.
    Comrade Stalin found time and opportunities to correct such shortcomings, it was not good. hi
    1. Avior
      Avior 13 November 2020 16: 45
      10
      If under Comrade Stalin the USSR lagged behind the Koreans, all those related to the lag would go collectively to harvest firewood.
      1. Lech from Android.
        Lech from Android. 13 November 2020 16: 52
        +7
        Alas ... dreams, dreams ... I would start with comrade Chubais as the founder of our lagging behind ... behind him there are a number of other comrades who took an active part in destructive activities so that our state lagged behind in the economy.
        But the roof of these comrades is still impenetrable.
        1. nickname7
          nickname7 13 November 2020 18: 31
          10
          I would start with Comrade Chubais as the founder of our lag

          Chubais in his own way, the father of the founder of the comprador capsystem of the Russian Federation, the hero of whose oligarchs he enriched, for his work he was awarded a sinecure, it is possible that the Chubais Center and a monument will be built.
      2. Turanov
        Turanov 13 November 2020 17: 13
        +1
        Quote: Avior
        If under Comrade Stalin the USSR lagged behind the Koreans, all those related to the lag would go collectively to harvest firewood.

        For this, the USSR was destroyed Sergei, who was afraid to cut firewood .. negative
        And we were the first in Space, all sly liberda did not interfere with us ..
      3. TulaTokarev
        TulaTokarev 13 November 2020 19: 34
        0
        Would send their widows and children of the enemies of the people
  4. iouris
    iouris 13 November 2020 16: 20
    +1
    You can write in abbreviated form VNEU, but only after the first mention in the text.
    And if it is for narrow specialists, then in the heading it was necessary to write "YK" instead of "South Korea".
    However, please accept my sincere assurances ...
    1. smart fellow
      smart fellow 13 November 2020 21: 58
      +1
      Correctly Republic of Korea i.e. RK.
  5. V1er
    V1er 13 November 2020 16: 25
    -3
    How can you develop your submarine from scratch? Where can I find information on this project? After all, the Germans or Americans are sure to help.
    1. Asad
      Asad 13 November 2020 16: 38
      +2
      Written, replacing the old German, probably the FRG helps.
    2. sergo1914
      sergo1914 13 November 2020 16: 38
      -1
      Quote: V1er
      How can you develop your submarine from scratch? Where can I find information on this project? After all, the Germans or Americans are sure to help.


      Why are you interested in?
    3. shahor
      shahor 13 November 2020 17: 33
      +1
      Quote: V1er
      How can you develop your submarine from scratch?

      Quote: V1er
      probably the Germans or the Americans are helping.

      So you have found the answer to the question why Russia does not have such boats! These ... American and German radishes do not want to help us disinterestedly ...
    4. nickname7
      nickname7 13 November 2020 19: 14
      +7
      How can you develop from scratch

      Well, of course, they didn't have to invent Euclidean geometry from scratch, as you thought.
      The shipbuilding industry of Koreans is a world leader, surpasses the similar industry in the Russian Federation several times, they also have several world corporations in electronics. A top smartphone from Koreans costs two average salaries, and they will be sold in the millions, the profit of one company is more than from the entire oil and gas of the Russian Federation.
      A developed industry, science and technology also gives enough money and engineers and production facilities to develop submarines from scratch. In the Russian Federation, there is not enough money, and those that are there cannot be mastered. This is the difference between industrial development and raw materials development.
    5. smart fellow
      smart fellow 13 November 2020 22: 22
      +2
      The Koreans built the U-209 / U-214 counterparts according to German documentation at their shipyards and acquired the necessary competencies. Further, the shipbuilders received the terms of reference from the military, designed and started building from scratch.
      The Germans do not need a larger submarine displacement due to the nature of the proposed theater of operations. And the Americans only have nuclear submarines. South Korea (Republic of Korea) has a higher scientific and technical potential than Russia, although they lag behind in the field of military technology, but they simply do not need much or are not allowed by the United States.
      The South Korean submarines have different tasks from the German ones. This is the hunt for North Korean submarines and the possibility of delivering an unexpected massive missile strike at military facilities in the DPRK. They even have destroyers sharpened for missile defense (in the UVP only missiles), in contrast to the Americans who, in addition to missiles, also have tomahawks (including those with a nuclear warhead) for striking ground targets.
    6. StarTroopers
      StarTroopers 13 November 2020 23: 30
      -6
      The case is German, BREU English, Korea only Korean batteries. It's just a throw-in for liberda in order to stir up the signature.
  6. DEVIL LIFE`S
    DEVIL LIFE`S 13 November 2020 16: 53
    0
    They are rapidly developing their defense industry. Probably the economy allows. And the scientific potential is probably international. Well, maybe, after all, scientists from the post-Soviet space or the former Warsaw bloc, or from less developed countries, moved there for a better life. And then their own developments will appear.
  7. Thrifty
    Thrifty 13 November 2020 16: 54
    +2
    Maybe they can take a license for the engine? Or, even buy a couple of engines for their localization from us! We have technology and technology, they have money
    1. UAZ 452
      UAZ 452 13 November 2020 19: 34
      +1
      And support our research institutes? Do you want to leave the grandfathers there without earning money for their pensions? Shame on you!
    2. Sergey Sfiedu
      Sergey Sfiedu 13 November 2020 20: 45
      +2
      "Maybe they can take a license for the engine?" - the problem is not in the electric motor, but in its power supply. And it is with the South Koreans under a German license. Contact Berlin, Frau Merkel.
    3. Turist1996
      Turist1996 13 November 2020 20: 49
      -4
      I answered below: there is no point in making a knowingly losing option.
    4. Turist1996
      Turist1996 13 November 2020 20: 51
      -4
      For what?! What's "shit" by default ?!
    5. Turist1996
      Turist1996 13 November 2020 20: 52
      -5
      What technologies are there ?! Where from? And who!?
    6. Turist1996
      Turist1996 13 November 2020 20: 55
      -5
      In fact: the collective farm is at a high level! But a pure "collective farm"!
  8. Turanov
    Turanov 13 November 2020 16: 57
    +1
    Something about Eun is not heard! The manuals did not come or there was no command
    1. StarTroopers
      StarTroopers 13 November 2020 23: 31
      -1
      I agree. TOPVAR somehow began to smell like Liberda. Some vyser are interspersed.
  9. fa2998
    fa2998 13 November 2020 17: 01
    -4
    Quote: Lech from Android.
    We are lagging behind the Koreans in this matter

    Well, the Koreans do not have such a vast territory where it is possible to dump nuclear waste, and they do not have the Arctic Ocean, where nuclear reactors can be fired, and the "green" ones are probably poorer than ours, which means we are in the old way with a nuclear SS. wassat hi
    1. UAZ 452
      UAZ 452 13 November 2020 19: 32
      -2
      Even if you don't care about the environment, you should still take into account the fact that a submarine, other things being equal, is noisier than a diesel-electric submarine, at least it cannot completely drown out the reactor. This means that with a sufficient density of enemy hydroacoustic control means, a tactical submarine will quickly become a heap of expensive scrap metal on the ocean floor, and a mass grave of the crew in combination.
    2. TulaTokarev
      TulaTokarev 13 November 2020 19: 41
      0
      Is there a nuclear installation for such a boat? There, the reactor is larger than the boat itself. Listen to you - it was also necessary to put a nuclear reactor on Grachenok)))
    3. StarTroopers
      StarTroopers 13 November 2020 23: 32
      -3
      What does waste and territory have to do with it? If you didn't know or are just stupid. All this waste of yours is safely recycled.
  10. Sancho_SP
    Sancho_SP 13 November 2020 17: 05
    -3
    Have they come up with something more interesting than a thermos with oxygen?
  11. Tsoy
    Tsoy 13 November 2020 17: 13
    +5
    Spaniards, British, and kind of like the Germans, as this is their improved project, lit up in the building. Unit cost $ 900 million. Except 6 shafts for vertical launch of 8 533 mm TA.
    The next modification will be even more interesting. The displacement will increase by a thousand to 4 and the mines will already be 8-10. Plus lithium-ion batteries and new technology for all-electric propulsion. (The last sentence is a literal translation).
  12. GRIGORIY76
    GRIGORIY76 13 November 2020 17: 16
    +4
    Recently I stumbled upon information about the export of equipment for the nuclear industry from South Korea. In 2019 - $ 69 billion.
    Think about it. Such a small country, and people plow there, be healthy.
    1. IGOR GORDEEV
      IGOR GORDEEV 13 November 2020 17: 26
      +2
      Quote: GRIGORIY76
      Recently I stumbled upon information about the export of equipment for the nuclear industry from South Korea. In 2019 - $ 69 billion.
      Think about it. Such a small country, and people plow there, be healthy.

      And if the two Koreas are united, then China will probably be able to squeeze.
  13. Kostadinov
    Kostadinov 13 November 2020 18: 27
    -7
    Quote: GRIGORIY76
    Recently I stumbled upon information about the export of equipment for the nuclear industry from South Korea. In 2019 - $ 69 billion.
    Think about it. Such a small country, and people plow there, be healthy.

    The nuclear equipment that produces the protectorate is American licensed. And 69 billion export a year is certainly a mistake.
    1. GRIGORIY76
      GRIGORIY76 13 November 2020 19: 19
      +6
      You may think so. But how many Korean cars, computers, televisions, telephones do we have in our country? The technology is all right there.
      1. StarTroopers
        StarTroopers 13 November 2020 23: 33
        -1
        well, I haven't met Korean computers, I haven't even heard
        1. GRIGORIY76
          GRIGORIY76 14 November 2020 09: 07
          +2
          Yes, I agree, Samsung abandoned the production of computers 5 years ago, smartphones and tablets are much more profitable.
  14. UAZ 452
    UAZ 452 13 November 2020 19: 27
    +3
    This proves that economic power can be easily converted into military power, but economically, technologically backward countries cannot be powerful military powers in the modern world.
  15. Ryaruav
    Ryaruav 13 November 2020 20: 25
    0
    under 4000 tons to Koreans well done, but if it were not for the Americans, we are friends with Koreans
    1. Sergey Sfiedu
      Sergey Sfiedu 13 November 2020 20: 49
      -2
      Yes, we are in a normal relationship. The South Koreans have our S-350 (under license) and Iskanders (I don’t know for sure - the same kind of licensed, but maybe pirated, but ours were not outraged).
  16. Turist1996
    Turist1996 13 November 2020 20: 39
    -7
    Yeah, great! Based on surface and underwater displacement, the buoyancy margin is less than 10% of the displacement ... Congratulations! With noiselessness and other "goodies" .. Which you stupidly cannot implement!
    And that's it! And "Varshavyanka" can - because the crew does not read this crap.
  17. Turist1996
    Turist1996 13 November 2020 20: 45
    -4
    Stirling and others: there have long been atomic reactors cooled by natural circulation! But you think Russians are "quilted jackets" - oh, count as before !!!!
    You will have to pay more ...
  18. Lexus
    Lexus 13 November 2020 22: 25
    +7
    He mentioned South Korea in the comments to the article by Roman Skomorokhov about the Swedish A26 project a couple of days ago as contenders in cooperation with the Germans for the best nuclear submarine. In general, not without reason. And if you consider that the start is actually from scratch ... Deserve respect. request
  19. StarTroopers
    StarTroopers 13 November 2020 23: 34
    -3
    Can I put a MINUS here?
  20. fa2998
    fa2998 14 November 2020 13: 57
    0
    Quote: IGOR GORDEEV
    And if the two Koreas are united, then China will probably be able to squeeze.

    The DPRK is not the GDR. Even the FRG temporarily stopped economic growth, supplied the former East Germany. Even now (after over 30 years) the lands of united Germany have not leveled their level. So the southerners will "feed" the "northern" for a long time. hi