Military Review

Serbia departs from the Soviet 7,62 caliber

83

Serbian soldiers with the new M19 machine gun


In the second quarter of 2020, the Serbian army adopted the new modular M19 automatic rifle. Feature weapons is not just replacement of barrels of different lengths, but also bicaliber performance. The weapon can be transformed for the use of two ammunition. The old widely known Soviet intermediate cartridge 7,62x39 (model 1943), which is still one of the most common on the planet, and the new 6,5x39 mm Serbian cartridge, built on the basis of 6,5 mm Grendel ammunition.

The first contracts for the supply of new M19 assault rifles can be signed in the fourth quarter of 2020. According to the online publication "About Serbia in Russian" RuSerbia.com, the main caliber in the units that will receive the new modular M19 submachine gun will be 6,5 mm. In turn, taking into account the large stocks of 7,62 mm cartridges, it will be more rational to use them for training purposes, at training camps. Also, it will always be easy to switch to 7,62-mm, in case of a shortage of new ammunition, since the weapon's capabilities allow easy transformation from one caliber to another.

Modular machine М19


The new Serbian modular machine gun M19 (Modularna automatska cannon) has been developed and manufactured by Zastava Arms (Zastava Oruzje). This is a modern example of automatic small arms that can be easily adapted to any combat situation. The weapon has a simple design and is suitable for use in any combat situation, including easily transported in armored vehicles due to the folding stock. The assault rifle is produced in two main calibers: 7,62x39 mm and a new one - 6,5x39 mm. The latter, according to Serbian journalists, will soon become the main one in the Serbian army.


Serbian modular machine M19

The weapon can really be attributed to simple and ergonomic samples, largely due to the fact that (like the Russian AK-12/15) this is still another modernization of the Kalashnikov assault rifle circuit. True, the modernization was carried out at the most modern level. The M19 is a modular piece of small arms. At one time, Serbian developers called their model the world's first assault rifle with interchangeable barrels. In this case, the shooter, if necessary, can not only install a barrel of different lengths on his weapon (at least 415 mm and 254 mm barrel variants are known), but also change the caliber of the weapon. Bicaliber weapon: interchangeable barrels are available in calibers 6,5x39 mm and 7,62x39 mm. Along with changing the barrel, the shooter also changes the store. The website of the Zastava Arms company reports that magazines for 7,62 rounds are used with 39x30 mm cartridges, and box magazines for 6,5 and 39 rounds are available for the 25x20 mm caliber.

If necessary, the shooter can independently replace the barrel, transforming the weapon for the combat mission to be solved. At the same time, no structural changes need to be made - the barrel in the Serbian M19 assault rifle is fixed using a specially designed mechanism on the receiver and, if necessary, can be easily detached from the weapon. Already traditional for modern models of small arms is the presence of a long Picatinny rail on the upper part of the receiver, the cover is not removable (there is also a lower bar). Together with the assault rifle, the Serbian M-20 optical sight and the HT-35 thermal imager can be used.


Serbian modular machine M19

Also quite traditional for modern modular small arms is the presence of fire switches and bolts on both sides of the machine, which simplifies the use of weapons by left-handers. The modular M19 assault rifle is equipped with a telescopic folding stock. The rear pistol grip has an improved ergonomic shape. It is reported that the developers have profiled the machine in such a way as to provide the shooter with a better grip to improve shooting accuracy, especially when firing in bursts.

What is known about the Serbian 6,5 mm cartridge


If the new Serbian assault rifle was developed by the designers of the Zastava Armse enterprise (Kragujevac), the ammunition for it is improved and produced by the Prvi Partizan enterprise (Uzice). The new Serbian cartridge 6,5x39 mm is based on the 6,5-mm ammunition for sport shooting and hunting Grendel. This low-impulse centerfire intermediate cartridge was invented in 2003 in the USA by designers Arne Brennan and Bill Alexander. Initially, the cartridge was created for sports / tactical small arms models built on the AR-15 platform, but over time it has spread throughout the world and has been adapted to other popular small arms platforms. At the same time, the Serbian army is almost the first to switch to new ammunition.


Serbian modular machine M19

The US-developed cartridge, which the Serbs will produce at their own facility in Uzice, still has Soviet roots. It was made on the basis of the Soviet intermediate cartridge 7,62x39 mm, inheriting the sleeve from the latter. According to the official website of the Prvi Partizan company, it is already producing the new 6,5x39 mm ammunition, in at least three versions, two of which are obviously intended for hunting. In this case, the characteristics of the produced cartridges in any case give an idea of ​​the new ammunition.

Execution A-484:
bullet with an all-metal jacket, bullet weight 7,1 grams, muzzle velocity - 840 m / s, muzzle energy - 2 J.

Execution A-485:
bullet with an expansive cavity, bullet mass 7,8 grams, muzzle velocity - 815 m / s, muzzle energy - 2 J.

Execution A-483:
semi-jacketed bullet, bullet weight 8 grams, muzzle velocity - 810 m / s, muzzle energy - 2 615 J.

Serbian ammunition A-484 (FMJ BT) and A-485 (HP-BT) are made by BT - Boat Tail, which literally translates as "boat tail". These bullets have a distinctively recognizable shape - they have a noticeable tapered taper at the rear. This design provides bullets with a high initial velocity, and also stabilizes them in flight. Such bullets lose speed less throughout the flight path and are less blown away by the wind.


First cartridge 7,62x39 mm, third and fourth 6.5 Grendel with different bullets

According to the official website of the Ministry of Defense of Serbia, the new machine guns with 6,5 mm ammunition are able to effectively hit group and individual targets at a distance of up to 800 meters. It is reported that the servicemen of the Serbian army have already had the opportunity to make sure of the quality and effectiveness of the new weapons and ammunition for them in the range conditions, primarily at the shooting ranges. It is noted that the Serbian servicemen appreciated the reliability, accuracy and ergonomics of the new rifle complex.

Created by Prvi Partizan, the 6,5 mm cartridge is conceptually based on the Grendel 6,5 mm sport shooting and hunting cartridge. The ammunition has a similar design, ballistic solutions and functional characteristics, while being adapted for use in automatic and semi-automatic weapons. According to the Serbian Ministry of Defense, the Serbian military used two new types of cartridges at the training grounds: with a 6,5-mm all-metal bullet and a brass sleeve and with a 6,5-mm armor-piercing bullet and a brass sleeve.


It is reported that in terms of its ballistic parameters and characteristics, the new Serbian modular machine gun for 6,5x39 mm ammunition has significantly better firing characteristics than weapons for 7,62x39 mm or 5,56x45 mm NATO cartridges. Superiority is achieved due to the better aerodynamic properties of the bullet, which, with a similar initial energy and without a significant increase in recoil when fired, provides a more flat trajectory, a lower drop in the bullet flight speed, as well as a higher final kinetic energy. It is reported that thanks to this it is possible to provide a more stable bullet flight at long firing distances. The latter directly affects the increase in the accuracy of shooting from weapons. Also, the Ministry of Defense of Serbia emphasizes that the striking properties of the ammunition (lethality) and armor penetration have increased at all effective ranges.


Serbian soldiers with the new M19 machine gun
Author:
Photos used:
Serbian Ministry of Defense
83 comments
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  1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka 16 November 2020 05: 07
    20
    What can I say, Serbs are great!
    Special thanks to Sergey for the "icing on the cake" in the form of this article !!!
    1. Hunter 2
      Hunter 2 16 November 2020 05: 30
      12
      I join Kota, the Serbs made a "Solomon" decision, choosing an average between 7,62 and 5,56. I see no point in describing the merits, because we have already discussed it many times and there are quite a few articles on this topic!
      Good luck to the Serbian manufacturers of both weapons and ammunition!
      1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka 16 November 2020 07: 31
        +8
        On my own note! The prospects of a 6,5mm bullet were noted by our automatic weapon guru Fedorov.
        We had Fedorov assault rifles and machine guns under this caliber even in an experimental order! By the way, our first serial T-6,5 (MS-18) tanks were armed with 1mm machine guns.
        1. BDRM 667
          BDRM 667 16 November 2020 10: 17
          +3
          The cartridge developed in the USA, which the Serbs will produce at the plant in Uzice, their own version, still has Soviet roots. It was made on the basis of the Soviet intermediate cartridge 7,62x39 mm, inheriting the sleeve from the latter.


          It is all the more strange that having in fact the dimensions of our intermediate cartridge in 6,5x39, the Serbs decided to reduce the capacity of the magazines ...
          On the website of the Zastava Arms company it is reported that magazines for 7,62 rounds are used with 39x30 mm cartridges, and for 6,5x39 mm, box magazines for 25 and 20 rounds are available.
          1. Ingenegr
            Ingenegr 16 November 2020 10: 41
            +1
            Quote: BDRM 667
            it is strange that having in fact the dimensions of our intermediate cartridge in 6,5x39, the Serbs decided to reduce the capacity of the stores ...

            This is not strange. This is logical. It is problematic to make a reliably functioning large-capacity magazine (just like that, not a container - a cartridge is not a liquid) with a fairly large angle of the main cone of the sleeve. And this angle of Grendel is larger than that of the progenitor.
            1. aglet
              aglet 16 November 2020 11: 15
              -1
              "It is problematic to make a reliably functioning magazine with a large capacity (this is exactly how it is, and not a container - a cartridge is not a liquid) with a rather large angle of the main cone of the case.
              and in the article they write: "It was made on the basis of the Soviet intermediate cartridge 7,62x39 mm, having inherited the cartridge case from the latter."
              and where does the grendel?
              1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
                Kote Pan Kokhanka 16 November 2020 13: 17
                +1
                Compare, two magazines AK (AKM) under 7,62mm and AK-74 under 5,45mm. The diagonal radius is different. Apparently the Serbs did not manage to do this for their 6,5x39. Although I can slander the brothers of the Slavs and this is a banal protection from the fool.
                7,62 - magazine with a bend.
                6,5 - direct shop.
                1. Lexus
                  Lexus 16 November 2020 20: 41
                  +2
                  Vlad hi,
                  just at 7,62, the sidewalls of the sleeves converge "under a cone", for the rest - almost straight.
            2. Azimuth
              Azimuth 16 November 2020 17: 26
              +3
              6,5 Grendel easily loads the standard 30-round magazine from AKM and everything works flawlessly.
              1. BDRM 667
                BDRM 667 17 November 2020 05: 37
                0
                Quote: Azimuth
                6,5 Grendel easily loads the standard 30-round magazine from AKM and everything works flawlessly.

                If so , then it is not at all clear why the Serbs needed to fence in stores for 20 and 25 rounds.
              2. Michael HORNET
                Michael HORNET 17 November 2020 21: 23
                0
                The AK 7.62 magazine cannot be loaded with 30 rounds of 6.5 Grendel, don't be fooled)
                Obviously, the reduced magazine capacity of 25 rounds is a tribute to the preservation of pouches for magazines of standard length. The store for Grendel will have a larger radius of curvature, it will be almost straight. And accordingly, 30 rounds will take up much more space in height. Approximately 25-26 rounds come out in the same height.
            3. venik
              venik 16 November 2020 21: 09
              +2
              Quote: Ingenegr
              It is difficult to make a reliably functioning large-capacity store ... fairly large angle the main cone of the liner. And this angle of Grendel is larger than that of the progenitor.

              ========
              Looking at the photo given in the article, I would didn't say that!!!
              Here are the measurements taken from the enlarged photo:

              So, the Serbian cartridge 6.5x39 comes out has a smaller taper angle of the sleeve compared to the traditional 7.62x39 !!!
          2. Black Colonel
            Black Colonel 19 November 2020 17: 36
            0
            It is really unclear why to reduce the store capacity. On the other hand, it is not clear why to invent new magazines, if the cartridges were developed on the basis of 7,62x39. As I understand it, the 7,62 mm sleeves were simply re-crimped to 6,5 mm without changing the taper. But judging by the drawings of the previous forum member, the taper was reduced. In my opinion, it was wasted, because with such a taper, the weapon will be more sensitive to pollution.
    2. zenion
      zenion 23 November 2020 15: 59
      +1
      Kote pane Kohanka (Vladislav). The author forgot that this caliber was the first in the Russian army. For the three-line and machine guns, this was the main caliber of the long-barreled weapons of the Russian army. And in the Red Army it was used on the coast. When there are tens of millions of rifles and a thousand machine guns on land and in the air, they will not change the caliber of weapons. Everything that is not done is done for the caliber of cartridges that is. It is necessary to start re-equipping the army at the end of the war. Only an enemy of the people could think of such a thing. The USSR did not impose this caliber on anyone.
      1. Mordvin 3
        Mordvin 3 23 November 2020 16: 02
        +1
        Quote: zenion
        The USSR did not impose this caliber on anyone.

        Duc from the German Mauser caliber whistled.
  2. Graz
    Graz 16 November 2020 05: 36
    +4
    interesting experience. I think our MO should study it and continue to observe this reform in Serbia. from time to time sending specialists there to check the watches, as they say.
    I think the Serbian assault rifle is not a cheap one with all these replaceable barrels, but it's all very interesting
    1. Ross xnumx
      Ross xnumx 16 November 2020 05: 51
      -1
      Quote: Graz
      interesting experience. I think our MO should study it and continue to observe this reform in Serbia. from time to time sending specialists there for checking hours as they say.

      And why check the clocks for those who do not have domestic watches on their hands?
      Such an interesting experience is shown by many countries. If in the production of small arms in Russia there is something to answer that the production of any type, where there is at least some kind of "electronic filling", is in full ... Why is this so? Read:
  3. Ross xnumx
    Ross xnumx 16 November 2020 05: 39
    +1
    Serbia departs from the Soviet 7,62 caliber

    Well?
    In terms of technical capabilities and characteristics, the Serbian M19 modular machine gun looks a lot impressive AK-47. How it will be in terms of reliability - time will tell.
    The tendency when countries give preference to better and cheaper weapons (even if this requires creating their own from scratch) is obvious.
  4. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 16 November 2020 05: 41
    -9
    Haha. They made me laugh in the morning. Where did these rogues get the money to switch to a new cartridge, especially to a completely new cartridge that is not used by anyone else? Also a modular machine gun FOR THE ARMY !!! As if the soldier will carry with him the second barrel and magazines for the second caliber in case there are no cartridges for the first caliber, and then you can change the barrel and shoot cartridges of a different caliber. Fake news of rare delusion.
    1. Graz
      Graz 16 November 2020 05: 50
      +9
      and why should he carry something. replaceable barrels may well be stored in the armory of the subdivision, as well as stores for a different cartridge, and even some part of the ammunition, and what for an army whose there is not a million people, I do not think that it is difficult for a small army and reserve to make the necessary number of machine guns, private traders are doing this there, as I understand it, the same is for the cartridge pro-wu, so they do not at a loss for themselves
      1. aglet
        aglet 16 November 2020 08: 21
        +5
        "why should he carry something. Interchangeable barrels may well be stored in the armory, as well as magazines for a different cartridge."
        what if tomorrow is a war? and where is this "armory"?
      2. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 16 November 2020 09: 33
        +3
        Quote: Graz
        and why should he carry something. replaceable barrels may well be stored in the armory of the unit, as well as stores for a different cartridge, and even some part of the ammunition, and what for an army whose there is not a million people, I don’t think it’s difficult for a small army and reserve to make the necessary number of machine guns,

        The most important thing for the army is uniformity. The more monotonous the equipment, weapons and equipment, the better. No wonder even the rich USA after WWII switched to two cartridges for small arms individual weapons - 7,62 * 51 for rifles and machine guns, and 11,43 * 23 for pistols, deciding to get rid of cartridge 7,62 * 33 for the M1 carbine and cartridge 9 * 19 for PP M3, considering that it would be cheaper and more convenient to use only two nomenclatures of cartridges than four. Only the experience of the Vietnam War forced the Yankees with a gritt in their teeth to adopt the third cartridge 5,56 * 45. And then in 1985 they switched to the Beretta M9, ​​at the same time replacing the standard army pistol cartridge 11,43 * 23 with the Beretta 9 * 19. That is, even the rich USA, which has a military budget greater than the military budget of all other countries combined, do not allow themselves the foolishness of adopting a modular automatic rifle with two rounds.
        1. Alexfly
          Alexfly 16 November 2020 12: 27
          +1
          pancake-pancake-pancake .... cartridge 30.30 was originally a hunting one and after WWII did not suit it as a rifle / rifle cartridge. And the 30.06 cartridge, from the old hunting ones, having passed through WWI and WWII, was excessively strong and, by the way, less accurate than the .308, in principle, at the same distances. Therefore, the medium ammunition .308 for NATO was chosen. Europe did not need June 30.06. "All Europe" was sitting on the Mauser and its derivatives, with the exception of France and England. Well done Serbs, developing the Grendel theme.! Up to the crown I shot from the Arch under it, very closely
          1. aglet
            aglet 16 November 2020 16: 31
            +2
            "Well done Serbs, developing the Grendel theme.!"
            again the question, where does the grendel? only the caliber is similar, and the Arisaka was for this caliber. good fellows Japanese, foresaw the appearance of Grendel
            1. Alexfly
              Alexfly 16 November 2020 19: 04
              -1
              It's very simple to hunt with 7,62x39 in some places, but with 6,5x39 you can. Why? The latter has a higher muzzle energy ...
              1. paul3390
                paul3390 16 November 2020 22: 05
                +2
                Because in the old days - there were many fans to hunt with an army cartridge, obtained from the ensign for a box of vodka .. Naturally - the bullet of the beast simply sewed, producing a huge number of wounded animals .. Hence the ban on this cartridge, despite the fact that it is already full of normal hunting ones. ...
    2. The leader of the Redskins
      The leader of the Redskins 16 November 2020 07: 46
      -5
      You will soon turn into a rogue, thanks to the "brilliant" foreign policy of our leadership. And Serbia is a European country. On which no sanctions are rained, with which they have a normal political and economic dialogue.
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 16 November 2020 07: 53
        +2
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        You will soon turn into a rogue, thanks to the "brilliant" foreign policy of our leadership

        Yes Yes. Therefore, we urgently jump to the Maidan to throw off Putin and jump for Navalny. Wow, then we'll live !!!! Ukrainians will burst with envy! We will join the EU and NATO, get visa-free, pensions will be two thousand euros, salaries will be 4 thousand euros, and every weekend we will fly to drink coffee at the Vienna Opera or eat croissants in Montmartre!
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        And Serbia is a European country. On which no sanctions are rained, with which they have a normal political and economic dialogue.

        Well, of course! For 7 years, Ukraine has made a giant leap forward in the economy and welfare of its citizens. After all, Ukraine is a European country that is not subject to sanctions, which pursues an ingenious foreign policy, having managed to quarrel with all its neighbors, and which does everything that the big aunts and uncles from Brussels and Washington tell it))))).
        Uncle Leader, are you normal at all?
        1. The leader of the Redskins
          The leader of the Redskins 16 November 2020 08: 24
          -4
          Well, you personally and the like, and you don't need to ride - everything has already been decided without you. Ukroina is rolling, but I remember my purchasing power in 2015, compare it with the current one and ... I don't understand! How so?!! We are great, we are rich, but are people poor?
          This is the paradox!
          And if anything, then yes! The helmsman cannot but row the galley correctly! And everyone is guilty (except himself), but in Zimbabwe they live poorer than us!
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 16 November 2020 08: 40
            -2
            Well, of course, democratic nyasha Navalny and other liberal Caudlers, having seized power, will ask the people for their opinion before making any decision. That is Gaidar, Nemtsov and other liberals constantly asked the opinion of the people before robbing this very people.
            Quote: Leader of the Redskins
            and in Zimbabwe they live poorer than us!

            This shows your stupidity. There is always where to slide, there is no bottom. I remember people like you, pots, who rode in 2014 against Yanukovych and yelled that "it won't get any worse, where else? !!!". And like this - it happens worse. In August 1991, Moscow horses galloped for Yeltsin, shouting that "you can't live like this !!!!". And 1992 showed that it is possible to live even worse, more precisely, not to live, but to survive, which is what the Russians were doing throughout the 90s.
            Quote: Leader of the Redskins
            but I remember my purchasing power in 2015, I compare it with the current one and ... I don't understand! How so?!! We are great, we are rich, but are people poor?

            You, I see, are quite a sucker. And I remember well the 90s, I was still a kid then, but I well remember the rampant hyperinflation, how my parents burned several thousand rubles on savings, how prices rose every day. In 1991, I found three rubles on the street, my mother told me that they could buy three loaves of bread, I did not spend these three rubles, I kept them just in case, and that's it! A year later, they could only buy three boxes of matches, then for me, an 8-year-old boy, it was a shock. If you were in the 90s, you would not be jumping for the liberals now.
            1. The leader of the Redskins
              The leader of the Redskins 16 November 2020 08: 48
              +8
              Your impenetrable stupidity is shown by the manner of thinking out for the opponent and attributing YOUR words to him.
              I never once mentioned Navalny. He is not an idol to me. And, by and large, I don't care who will be at the helm, if only the people (and me, respectively) live comfortably and well.
              I didn't jump in the pot. This is not practiced in the Moscow region.
              And I'm not a boy anymore. You do not read the comments carefully or you deliberately misinterpret them. 1991-1993 years of my service. Then the institute and work experience. But in 2015 was my maximum purchasing power. However, if your intellect is fixated on rogue, then these words are not clear to you.
              1. Kot_Kuzya
                Kot_Kuzya 16 November 2020 09: 22
                -13 qualifying.
                Quote: Leader of the Redskins
                And I'm not a boy anymore. You do not read the comments carefully or deliberately misinterpret them. 1991-1993 years of my service. Then the institute and work experience.

                And I'm not following you, you are not a five-thousandth bill and not a beauty with legs from ears to read all your comments for you.
                Quote: Leader of the Redskins
                I didn't jump in the pot. This is not practiced in the Moscow region.

                But then they rode with posters

                You were not among those galloping on this square?
                Quote: Leader of the Redskins
                But in 2015 was my maximum purchasing power.

                Don't write nonsense. The maximum purchasing power of Russians, I note, not for you personally, but for the majority of Russians, was in 2008, before the global crisis. Maybe you were unemployed in 2007, and in 2014 you became a normal paid worker. The same can be said about me, in 2015 my salary was about 30 thousand, now about 80 thousand, which is quite good for the Russian province, and I do not think that my purchasing power has fallen compared to 2015.
                Quote: Leader of the Redskins
                However, if your intellect is fixated on rogue, then these words are not clear to you.

                My rogue intellect is fixated on the 90s I grew up in. I well remember all these "saints" for the liberals, but "dashing" for the rest of the Russians.
            2. Paragraph Epitafievich Y.
              Paragraph Epitafievich Y. 16 November 2020 10: 59
              -2
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              then for me, an 8-year-old boy, it was a shock. If you were in the 90s, you would not be jumping for the liberals now.

              laughing
              yes, just right to write a memoir, "How I, eight years old, miraculously survived in the 90s." Here's a small excerpt:
              ... the historian rewrote history, the geographer - geography. Trudovik sharpened cartridges for the local organized crime group at night. But the drawing teacher gave me very useful skills in forging food stamps. It was the kublo of the liberals! It's amazing how I survived!
              1. The comment was deleted.
            3. Incvizitor
              Incvizitor 17 November 2020 02: 09
              0
              Someone had only savings, and friends sold an apartment in order to buy another, could take a new two, chose a month and it turned out that suddenly they had 500k (at the current prices).
              People received salaries with all kinds of teapots and other products, the enterprises did not have money, then they ran around their acquaintances trying to drive these teapots.

              All this shkolota does not understand, they simply did not see it, they walk with their new "stubs", drive cars purchased with folders for 500 + k and "their life has failed."
              Or deliberately against the country drowned, pests.
        2. Diverter
          Diverter 17 November 2020 00: 01
          0
          I forgot about the lace panties!))))
      2. cat Rusich
        cat Rusich 16 November 2020 23: 56
        +1
        Quote: Leader of the Redskins
        And Serbia is a European country. On which no sanctions are rained, with which they have a normal political and economic dialogue.
        In 1999, bombs and Tomahawks were raining down on Serbia (then Yugoslavia) ... The head of Yugoslavia S. Milosivic died in a foreign prison (in the city of The Hague). The "European Dialogue" will begin with Serbia - after Serbia recognizes the "independence" of Kosovo ... Then Serbia will become a "European country".
  5. Per se.
    Per se. 16 November 2020 06: 04
    +8
    Even Vladimir Grigorievich Fedorov considered the 6,5 mm caliber the most optimal for his assault rifles. The Serbs are not the most original here, but, undoubtedly, the innovation with the improvement in characteristics is commendable. However, you must understand, they saved on the finished sleeve, for example, Fedorov wanted to use 6,5X57 mm.
    We tested the 6X49 mm cartridge, who knows, maybe we will also have innovations here.
    1. Graz
      Graz 16 November 2020 06: 29
      10
      Fedorov, as far as I heard, wanted to use a ready-made cartridge from the Japanese rifle Arisaki
      1. Reserve buildbat
        Reserve buildbat 16 November 2020 06: 44
        11
        Fedorov developed his own cartridge, but there was nowhere to produce it, and so the release of cartridges in RI did not shine. So I had to remake the machine under the Arisakovsky cartridge
      2. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 16 November 2020 07: 25
        -2
        Fedorov designed his original 6,5 caliber cartridge for his. But then the war began, it was not up to the release of a completely new cartridge, and so even the long mastered 7,62 * 54 could not be produced in sufficient quantities. And Fedorov altered his machine gun for the Japanese Arisaki, of which there were relatively enough, since the tsarist government massively purchased Japanese rifles and cartridges for them.
    2. Flooding
      Flooding 17 November 2020 09: 42
      0
      Quote: Per se.
      Serbs are not the most original here

      When the military begins to chase originality, the army will turn into a circus show.
      Practicality and efficiency.
      Will Serbs be that good if they implement this venture?
      Is it affordable for the Serbian budget?
      Wouldn't it be more logical to patch up the holes in your defenses?
    3. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 17 November 2020 21: 28
      +1
      6x49 is even more promising than 6.5 Grendel in theory, but in 6x49 it was not possible to resolve the issue with the low survivability of real barrels. Therefore, the cartridge was abandoned. And he's good. It would be brought to mind by further increasing the ballistic coefficient of the bullet and reducing the bullet speed to 830-840 m / s
  6. polar fox
    polar fox 16 November 2020 07: 03
    +6
    and why with a "new" cartridge stores of smaller capacity?, and why the sleeve is brass? lack of technological equipment or what?
    and it would be nice to see a comparative plate ... otherwise, a lot of things are done on the case of arr 43 g.
    1. English tarantas
      English tarantas 16 November 2020 15: 06
      +1
      "new" cartridge magazines of smaller capacity?

      Maybe the feed was stable?
      why is the sleeve made of brass? lack of technological equipment or what?

      And what should be? We have invented this out of steel, in the world it is still the old fashioned way.
  7. Oleg Bykov
    Oleg Bykov 16 November 2020 08: 50
    +1
    Interestingly, in the illustration, these cartridges have different lengths, apparently due to different bullet lengths, and the weight of the bullets is different.
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 16 November 2020 09: 46
      -5
      These are not Serbian cartridges, these are Grendel cartridges of different variations. The article is a complete fake, even a photo of the alleged "Serbian" patrons is not given.
  8. Tests
    Tests 16 November 2020 09: 57
    +1
    I wonder how the problem of protecting the magazine shaft from dirt was solved, how we will change the stores ... Or are they (the magazines) the same for different cartridges? Well, at least from above? ... And having changed the barrel, how many cartridges do you need (6-9-12?) And time to shoot the machine gun?
  9. iouris
    iouris 16 November 2020 10: 16
    -1
    Leave the Serbia "we lost" behind.
    1. bk0010
      bk0010 16 November 2020 14: 01
      0
      What "leave me alone"? You have to see what they can do.
    2. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 16 November 2020 16: 30
      -2
      Quote: iouris
      Leave the Serbia "we lost

      Did we find her?
  10. Jacket in stock
    Jacket in stock 16 November 2020 10: 47
    -2
    Our army still uses cartridges from the century before last, which were outdated at the same time.
    And then again, and change everything? !!!
    What can I say, well you rich.
    1. English tarantas
      English tarantas 16 November 2020 19: 12
      +4
      7,62x54R is already a hundred years old as not the one that was a hundred years ago, it has undergone more than one modernization and at the moment meets all the requirements, in terms of their characteristics, the 7,62x54 cartridges are not inferior to 7,62x51. And work on the modernization of this cartridge is still going on, and Russian cartridges are already entering the armament of the Russian army. With the same success, you can disgrace yourself, remembering how old the cartridge 9x19 is, he is about the same age.
      1. Recon
        Recon 17 November 2020 02: 15
        0
        Don't forget about 12.7x99 and Browning M2, how old, what rubbish! But Americans have been using it for about a century. How so?
        1. English tarantas
          English tarantas 17 November 2020 15: 41
          0
          They even shoved them into planes and sniper rifles. This is what it means there is no money for normal weapons, they fight what they can, poor fellows
      2. Jacket in stock
        Jacket in stock 17 November 2020 10: 10
        +1
        Quote: English tarantass
        7,62x54R has been the wrong one for a hundred years

        Well, yes, and the earhooks on the sleeve are also not the same?
        1. English tarantas
          English tarantas 17 November 2020 15: 39
          0
          AND? What's not to like? The Kalashnikov machine gun works like a Swiss watch, the SVD too, there is no point in talking about bolts. The presence of a welt about complex automation generally makes it possible to make manipulations with the sleeve more bast and reliable.
  11. KSVK
    KSVK 16 November 2020 12: 21
    0
    Serbs are certainly great, what can I say. And it is clear that the 39th sleeve was chosen precisely for reasons of cheapness. But IMHO would have chosen the 47th and would have received a SINGLE ammunition. And 6,5x39 is rather weak for a machine gun / marksman. We'll have to use one more cartridge. Or the 51st NATO or our Orthodox 54th.
    But the nomenclature of bullets suggests a hunting application. Well, who will use SP-shki in combat? And HP looks strange. Especially in the 39th sleeve. They are not suitable for use as a sniper ammunition.
    PS The author, the best "stabilization" will be for a bullet without "boat tail", with equal weight. Since the "flat-bore" bullet is shorter and the FGS (what you call stabilization) will be higher.
    ZY1 But the question of "armor penetration" could be disclosed in more detail. What was compared with what and at what distances.
  12. Pavel57
    Pavel57 16 November 2020 13: 43
    +1
    Fedorov eventually had a choice in favor of the 6.5 x 50 Arisakh cartridge.
    1. Flooding
      Flooding 17 November 2020 09: 45
      0
      Quote: Pavel57
      Fedorov eventually had a choice in favor of the 6.5 x 50 Arisakh cartridge.

      After all, it is not at all difficult to google to understand that Fedorov created an intermediate cartridge.
  13. Undecim
    Undecim 16 November 2020 14: 09
    -2
    Out of 36 comments - 22% - verbal litter of Kota Kuzi. That is, the cat dirtied a fifth of the comments. Amazing performance.
    1. Incvizitor
      Incvizitor 16 November 2020 14: 51
      +5
      There is still a lot of liberda garbage, like the news about Serbian rifles, these anal ones and here the GDP dragged them, he probably personally prevents them from sleeping at nightlaughing
    2. English tarantas
      English tarantas 16 November 2020 15: 09
      +1
      Here he is - a talent! Do not even drink this.
  14. Azimuth
    Azimuth 16 November 2020 17: 38
    +2
    I read odes to the Serbs and once again felt hurt. We have tested a complex chambered for 6,5x39mm for a long time, our special ammunition was not accidentally created on the basis of the cartridge case 7,62x39. We experimented with the 7,62x39 cartridge case even during the reign of Tsar Pea - look at the second cartridge from the left, this is our standard hunting cartridge 5,6x39 aka .222 Russian designed by Blum back in 1955 (!!!), serially and still both the cartridge and the weapon for it are produced.
    Say the bicaliber system, "ah and oh", and I say it is all the fault of ILLITERACY, do you want bicaliber? Please do not think that this is "a new development of Russian gunsmiths exclusively for the civilian market":

    Just a civilian adaptation of the developed and buried army model ... Pay attention to the switch of the fuse under the thumb and the original store latch, conveniently, similar to Galil, but like the machine itself did not get into the series.
    Everything new in the military-industrial complex is well forgotten old hi
    1. Alexfly
      Alexfly 16 November 2020 19: 19
      -1
      and instead of .336 TCM, is it possible .308?
      1. Azimuth
        Azimuth 16 November 2020 19: 36
        0
        No.
        .366 TKM was created on the basis of the cartridge case 7,62x39, like our army cartridges 9x39 (SP-5 / -6, PAB-9), and the aforementioned 6,5x39 (6,5x38) and 5,6x39. The .308 Winchester, or otherwise 7,62x51, as you can see, the sleeve and dimensions are different, this is a different bolt, store, etc., that is, multicaliber is no longer achieved by replacing the barrel.
  15. Lad
    Lad 16 November 2020 17: 52
    0
    As an experiment, just fine. But as a solution for the army it seems bad.

    The Serbs took the 39th cartridge case from poverty. This is not the best case for such a cartridge. But let's say they saved on production almost without changing the machines. So be it.

    But Serbia is a very small country. And if we are talking about weapons, then in our time such a country cannot fight itself. Allies are required here, otherwise death. And with allies it is better to have one caliber. It's much easier and cheaper. Of course, the assault rifles will have second barrels for the common caliber, but then why bother with your own cartridge?

    And since the cartridge is so similar to a grendel, it would be better to just buy a license for its production. Now it would be more expensive, but later it would be cheaper and easier to supply.
    1. English tarantas
      English tarantas 16 November 2020 19: 05
      +1
      Allies are required here, otherwise death. And with allies it is better to have one caliber

      That's the point ... Who is their supposed ally? If those who are around, then they all have large stocks of cartridges for AKM, if we are, even more so, but if in the west, it is unclear, although if the Serbs in the event of a big war will keep their old brothers in Yugoslavia, then the cartridges can will be, and it is clear in which direction their tail sticks out. On the other hand, in the USA there is a production of 7,62x39, and some of the samples are even better than the original in terms of characteristics. And also, if my memory serves me, the Serbian rework of the AK-74 (I forgot how they called it, like M * some numbers *) is eating a 5,56x45 cartridge, alas I don't remember which ones, American or some European
      but then why bother with your patron at all

      The thing with the grendel is that the Serbs want to make new bullets, since the nomenclature that they have now adopted looks more like a hunting one, why they took this cartridge at all is not clear, in general, the grendel was made as the best option between the flatness of 5,45 / 56 and armor penetration 7,62, since no one took the cartridge at one time, it settled on the hunting market, although even so it is a real army (remember the same lapua magnum, if I'm not lying, then it was originally purely for hunting large prey)
      I think the Serbs are afraid because of their double position and geography that in the event of a war they will be an active participant in it, therefore they are looking for a budgetary and quick solution to problems, the solution of which is the 6,5 caliber - breaking through new body armor and lightly armored vehicles. In principle, if they do not succeed, then the automaton will be deprived of modularity and it will be under one cartridge, which in the end will suit them.
  16. English tarantas
    English tarantas 16 November 2020 18: 48
    +1
    Ryabov Kirill, are you hiding behind a pseudonym? I recognized your handwriting, you can't hide)
    1. Lad
      Lad 16 November 2020 19: 07
      0
      Are you talking to me? And who is Ryabov?
  17. Azimuth
    Azimuth 16 November 2020 20: 01
    +2
    Quote: Lad
    As an experiment, just fine. But as a solution for the army it seems bad.

    The Serbs took the 39th cartridge case from poverty. This is not the best case for such a cartridge. But let's say they saved on production almost without changing the machines. So be it.

    The ammunition is good, it really fired a hunter from a friend's Boar, very decent, devoid of shortcomings in accuracy 7,62x39 and "small-caliber" 5,45x39, that is, quite powerful.

    Serbs 6,5x39 are not released under license just because the mass of a bullet for army tasks is selected differently, in contrast to hunting and sports cartridges. So what's the use of a license?
    6,5mm is a fairly common ammunition:
    http://barnaulpatron.ru/production/sportshuntingcartridgescalibre/65.html

    But the problem is that at least you need to "think for three", for example, Serbia, Russia and China, having adopted a common standard for the bullet and cartridge, more precisely the mass of the bullet and charge, pressures, etc., and then each its own way, but the barrels of all small arms will be optimal in terms of the rifling step for a bullet of a specific mass + -, the automation and characteristics are designed to work with ammunition of a certain power / energy.

    In the case of the Serbs, either they arrogantly think that others will in the future equal for them, or the ammunition matches the characteristics of our domestic one. If the former, then even if we adopt 6,5x39, but with different characteristics, the Serbs will make a mistake by receiving an uncritical, but still a unique cartridge, if the latter, then we should wait for the adoption of 6,5x39 and its gradual displacement 5,45x39, and 7,62x39 will still remain and will fight.
    1. English tarantas
      English tarantas 17 November 2020 06: 40
      0
      I doubt that the Chinese and I will agree on one patron, and the relationship is not the same and not the fact that it will be, and in all other respects: they have their own huge production, we do not have money to change ours. The only thing we can agree on with them is a cartridge for the "second wave bayonets" at 7,62x39, then the Serbs guessed it right (the car was the Soviet Union). And it's generally dark about rearmament, since I have not even heard conversations on the topic on which the Americans are working, neither about the need to shoot through new targets, nor about increasing the fire capabilities of individual fighters, nor about the obsolescence of existing weapons. I don’t remember about the developments for 6-7mm cartridges, although given what only the scientists didn’t do during the union, they could have time to think about it, and if so, then we need to watch sho there, and then suddenly it’s better than grendel. And in general, the change of the cartridge and the weapon for it is not for our current army, someone there believed in the VO that their rearmament would cost the Americans no more than a couple of nuclear submarines, they would steal from our fleet, but we do not build a fleet, which means that even effectively to master the money will not be allocated.
  18. alexgall2013
    alexgall2013 16 November 2020 20: 35
    0
    um ... a "bare" barrel without a DTK or at least a flame arrester, somehow very "budgetary"
  19. Generator Systems
    Generator Systems 17 November 2020 00: 13
    +1
    In fact, with modular weapons, the caliber is not so important, so I don't know what is wrong with this news recourse
    Shade the components and you have m19 under 5.45 or 7.62, etc. the fact that they added 6.5 the weather does not mean that they will use this particular caliber in practice good
  20. riwas
    riwas 17 November 2020 04: 25
    +1
    The Serbs are certainly great, but we also need to think about increasing the caliber. Not too expensive for everyone, but for the MTR. I already said on the forum that according to my calculations of internal ballistics, the optimal caliber is 6,24 mm. The program for calculation in BASIC is given in the appendix of the article.
    http://www.sinor.ru/~bukren1/anti_t_b.htm
  21. Pavel57
    Pavel57 17 November 2020 10: 04
    +1
    Quote: Flood
    Quote: Pavel57
    Fedorov eventually had a choice in favor of the 6.5 x 50 Arisakh cartridge.

    After all, it is not at all difficult to google to understand that Fedorov created an intermediate cartridge.

    It's easy to google that a prototype machine gun was created chambered for 6,5 x57. And the series was produced under the Japanese cartridge.
  22. Azimuth
    Azimuth 17 November 2020 14: 30
    +1
    Quote: English Tarantas
    I doubt that the Chinese and I will agree on one patron, and the relationship is not the same and not the fact that it will be, and in all other respects: they have their own huge production, we do not have money to change ours. The only thing we can agree on with them is a cartridge for the "second wave bayonets" at 7,62x39, then the Serbs guessed it right (the car was the Soviet Union). And it's generally dark about rearmament, since I have not even heard conversations on the topic on which the Americans are working, neither about the need to shoot through new targets, nor about increasing the fire capabilities of individual fighters, nor about the obsolescence of existing weapons. I don’t remember about the developments for 6-7mm cartridges, although given what only the scientists didn’t do during the union, they could have time to think about it, and if so, then we need to watch sho there, and then suddenly it’s better than grendel. And in general, the change of the cartridge and the weapon for it is not for our current army, someone there believed in the VO that their rearmament would cost the Americans no more than a couple of nuclear submarines, they would steal from our fleet, but we do not build a fleet, which means that even effectively to master the money will not be allocated.
    You can and should agree on the STANDARD. It is not a fact that China will adopt it, but it can export weapons for it.
  23. Michael HORNET
    Michael HORNET 17 November 2020 20: 31
    0
    Well done Serbs! The first in the world to implement this progressive system
  24. Izotovp
    Izotovp 17 November 2020 23: 35
    0
    It is high time for us to abandon the existing two calibers and switch to one of the new ones. Or 6,5Grendel or 6,8 .... I don't remember how to proceed .. which now is most likely to replace 5,56
  25. Ax Matt
    Ax Matt 18 November 2020 17: 16
    0
    When will we have this caliber? Americans are already working hard on this. request
    1. Baron pardus
      Baron pardus 25 November 2020 07: 34
      +1
      We have slightly different problems here. We thought about THREE calibers for M16 / M4:
      1 Blackout is a 300 case bored out for the 5.56 cartridge. Ballistics is close to 7.62x7.62, but at close range it has better stopping power than 39 NATO. The PROBLEM of the cartridge is inferior in accuracy to the 5.56 caliber when firing at a distance of 5.56m +. however both magazines and stopper from 350NATO can be used.
      2 SPC. Ballistics almost the same as 6.8, but more energy. The problem is that SHUTTERS and SHOPS need to be changed. 5.56 Stores work but not very reliably.
      3. Grendel. This cartridge is better in all respects than all the others. But he has a problem. Due to the conical shape of the sleeve, the magazines are very curved (like magazines for AKM - banana mag), and do not work very well in М16 / М4. Moreover, you need to change the shutter, the problem is that the bottom of the Grendel sleeve is larger in diameter than the bottom of the 5.56NATO sleeve, and if so, then this VERY weakens the shutter. The M16 for a grendel works great if you have a 10-20 rounds magazine and don't shoot at a fast pace. For hunters and spotters - it is the most. But not for a fight.

      Now we have decided that we need to switch to a QUALITATIVE new ammunition, and are making a 6.8 cartridge, which has better ballistics than 7.62x51NATO. So Blackout, SOC and Grendel are mainly in the hands of civilians, although I read reports that our special forces used the M4 under 6.8 SOC in combat.
  26. bunta
    bunta 20 November 2020 14: 29
    +1
    SOVIET caliber! "Soviet" caliber is it from the author or the quirk of the editor-in-chief?
  27. mmaxx
    mmaxx 20 November 2020 19: 48
    0
    Young! Sound decision. In terms of fighting qualities, they overtook everyone.
  28. Baron pardus
    Baron pardus 25 November 2020 07: 20
    0
    The Serbs, it seems to me, have chosen the ideal option. I know Grendel not by hearsay. I have both AP15 and Vepr in this caliber. In terms of flatness, this cartridge surpasses both 5.56, 5.45 and 7.62x39 and approaches 7.62x51. Its recoil is less than that of 7.62x39. Well, the energy of the cartridge is higher. Moreover, in terms of energy, especially at long distances, this cartridge is not particularly inferior to the 308, with a much softer recoil. That's not the catch. Grendel is nothing more than a sleeve from the M43 crimped under a 6.5 bullet. That is, if you switch to this cartridge, then the ONLY thing you need to change is the BARREL. The gates and stores will work. In terms of logistics and supply - this is exactly what is called the "silver bullet" - performance is rising at a fairly low cost. The Serbs did what the Americans were pulling the cat by the tail over and that the USSR / RUSSIA should have done a long time ago, instead of 5.45x39, Grendel surpasses him in flatness, energy, and penetration.